Military Review

Ireland's First Witch

67
A grim, terrifying and bloody witch hunt unfolded in full force in Europe around the fifteenth century, when the notorious book The Witch Hammer appeared. On the fires of the Inquisition, the "servants of Satan" burned alive, intimidated people reported on each other, the executioners in the dungeons with sophisticated torture beat out confessions from unfortunate victims, and at the head of all this madness were the priests. With their uncontrollable power, they diligently fed the raging flame of obscurantism. But in stories The example was preserved when a woman accused of witchcraft still managed to avoid reprisals. Her name is Alice Keteler. She is considered the first witch in Ireland.


Ireland's First Witch


History of obscurantism

At the end of the thirteenth - the beginning of the fourteenth century - at the time when Alice lived, the inquisitors had not yet taken full control of human lives. This bloody period comes later. At the same time, medieval Europe lived with a still unabated view of the world, the structure of which was extremely simple. God stands above all, and between him and the people was all a respected mediator - the church. To go to heaven, you had to sincerely believe and live according to the commandments. And the priests of those times spent a lot of effort to bind philosophy and theology. And although a clear separation between the two worlds - the spiritual and the secular - existed, it was harmonious and convenient for all.

But at the beginning of the fourteenth century, these two worlds began to slowly but surely move away from each other. Instead of trying to explain to the lost souls of their mistakes and point the way to the light of the true faith, the clergymen began to lean towards one method - excommunicate the heretic from the church and destroy it. Accordingly, theology and science began to drift apart. Moreover, the first one considered herself the only correct one and tried in every way to stifle all attempts at dissent.

Because of these gaps in the fourteenth century and collapsed usual for Europeans way of life. From now on, the priests perceived themselves not as guides between the two worlds, but as fighters against sinful laypeople (and there were no others as suggested by the church). After all, ordinary people, being weak creatures, were the ideal weapons in the clawed paws of Satan. The paints and tragic events from which Europe was shaken were exaggerated: the years of crop failure and famine, the bloody Hundred Years War, the Black Death epidemic ... The lay people lived in superstitious fear. Therefore, the witch hunt is a consequence of the panic that the clergy actively fed. The first under the distribution were people with physical disabilities. Then suspicions spread to all people, regardless of their nature or type of activity.

At the same time, the church at the beginning was quite tolerant of healers. Although they were not touched, they were all under the supervision of the Inquisition. The fact is that healers were considered completely harmless magicians, even if they did not belong to the bosom of the Christian church. But if they were convicted of heresy - a treaty with the devil - then they immediately sent them to the fire. Magic separately, a contract with fiend - separately.

But over time, and these concepts are mixed. The "grandmothers with plantain" also began to belong to the servants of Satan. And the search, identification and eradication of witches were devoted to many weighty treatises written by demonological clergy. These manuals later formed the basis of the most famous book dedicated to exposing evil forces - “The Hammer of Witches”, published in 1487 year. It was then that the fight against obscurantism and turned in full force.

But the events in which the main character was Alice Kiteler, occurred a hundred and fifty years before the appearance of the "Hammer". Therefore, the Irish in her confrontation with the church still had a chance of success.

Witch-hunt. Start.

3 November 1324 marked a new page in the life of the whole of Ireland. On this day, on the main square of the city of Kilkenny, by the decision of the church, the first witch was burned all over the Emerald Isle. She became a certain Petronilla de Meath, the maid of the rich and powerful Alice Keteler. In general, the investigation, started by the Bishop of Ossory Richard de Ledred, was conducted against the hostess de Meath. But then money decided everything. Therefore, instead of a lady, Petronilla was sent to the stake.

Но обо всем по порядку.



Lady Alice Kiteler came from a noble Norman-Irish family who lived in Kiteler House in Kilkenny County. Nothing is known about her childhood. But thanks to the trial data about her rich personal life were preserved. Kiteler was married four times. Her first husband was a wealthy moneylender, William Autlav. They had a son, named after his father. But soon Autlav died, and all his condition passed over to an inconsolable widow. That's just Alice grieved briefly and remarried. This time her choice was Adam le Blond, also, by the way, a very, very wealthy usurer.

And then they paid attention to Alice. Former clients of her first husband brought charges against Kiteler, stating that she arrogated to herself the money of others stored by Autlav in custody. Several thousand pounds were soon found in a hiding place in the basement. And since there was no evidence against Alice, the case was closed. Is it true that Kiteler tried to appropriate the money for himself, or the late husband put the sum aside without telling his wife - this is never to be solved.

Further more. After a short time, Le Blond, for some unknown reason, rewrote all of his property and finances into his stepson. And, as it is easy to guess, I safely gave my soul to God. Widow Alice did not last long and married a large landowner Richard de Walle. And this time, family well-being turned out to be fleeting. For reasons unknown, de Wall died, leaving Alice to his fortune.

The fourth husband of Kiteler was Sir John le Poher, who came from a wealthy and distinguished family. Unlike previous spouses, Le Poher had his own children.

For several years the family lived quietly and calmly. And nothing, as they say, foreshadowed trouble. But suddenly in 1323, John fell seriously ill. Moreover, the disease developed so quickly that the medicine of that time did not know how to help the unfortunate. According to some versions, Le Poher suffered dizziness and frequent fainting. According to others, he lost all his hair, nails and the man could not move independently. John's children decided that his father’s illness was not accidental, so they accused her of witchcraft. During a search of the house, “magic drinks and powders” were found that used sorcerers for black magic. Therefore, Kiteler was suspected of killing previous husbands and “stealing health” from Le Poire.

Generally, if it were not for the intervention of one person, this case would most likely have been hushed up, given the wealth of the woman. But unfortunately, the real fan of his work became interested in the events in Kilkenny - Bishop Richard de Ledred.

Before being in Ireland, the bishop lived in England and France for a long time. And everywhere on his heels went the reputation of a hard man, obsessed with fighting any manifestations of devilish force. Approximately six to seven years before the above events, de Ledred was appointed head of the Ossory contour in Ireland. Coming to a new job, Richard was horrified to see local morals. And unpleasantly surprised him all: the laity, and the clergy. In the Diocese of London and Avignon, he began to send numerous letters, in which he spoke in detail about the drunkenness of the capital, fornication and violations of the church charter.

And then he found out about the Keteler case. By the time it was almost closed due to the lack of truly compelling evidence. But it was for “magic drinks and powders” that de Ledred got hooked. In them, he saw a great opportunity to accuse Alice of witchcraft. Thus, the bishop would be able to simultaneously kill two birds with one stone: show his bosses how bad things are in Ireland (and get even more power), and at the same time frighten the local population.

Richard personally took up the business of Kiteler. He found that the woman was at the head of a whole group (coven) of sorcerers and heretics living in Kilkenny County. And soon from his pen came out the indictment, which included seven points. First, it was established that Alice had abandoned the Christian faith. Secondly, the witnesses said that sorcerers systematically sacrificed birds and animals to demons. And their dissected carcasses heretics were laid out at intersections. Third, Alice, with the help of enchanted ointments, powders and candles, was harmful to people's health. In particular - to their husbands. In addition, Kiteler had his own demon named Robin Artisson, who was an incubus. Well, and various "small things": desecration of churches, the evil eye, the preparation of love spell potions, moving on a broomstick, and so on.

Investigation de Ledred

By order of the bishop, twelve people were detained: the son of Alice and her servants. Kiteler himself failed to capture. She managed to escape in time to Dublin, where she hid with rich patrons. They also helped the woman to appeal the case. Therefore, when Richard tried to deprive Alice of class rights, an unpleasant surprise awaited him. Instead, Keteler arrested the bishop himself. And though in prison he spent everything - nothing, it gave time to Alice. And she used it as efficiently as possible - hid in England. And no one saw her again.



When de Ledrade was released, he decided to act through the son of Keteler and her maids. Under the cruel torture of Petronilla de Meet, she not only surrendered her mistress, fully admitting the charges on all counts, but also called herself a witch. Richard did not stand on ceremony with her, having heard what he wanted, he immediately ordered to burn de Meath, for the edification of others. She became the first victim of a witch hunt in Ireland.

The rest, including Kiteler's son, were whipped on the market square and sent to jail. In conclusion, William Autlav spent several months. After which he was sent on a pilgrimage to the grave of St. Thomas, which is located in Canterbury. This punishment was not limited. William was fined to repair the roof of the cathedral in Kilkenny, demanded an oath not to miss a single mass and give alms to the poor. Alice Bishop managed to condemn only in absentia. But deprived of its rights to all possessions in the county. But the runaway was hardly worried about these losses.



True, there is a version that de Ledred still managed to find Kiteler in England in 1325 and carried out the death sentence himself. And according to another version, Alice, having changed her name, lived for a long time, trying not to stand out from the crowd.
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  1. Rotmistr
    Rotmistr 1 December 2017 06: 16 New
    17
    Witch Hunt is a creepy process
    It was interesting to read
    1. KaPToC
      KaPToC 1 December 2017 21: 05 New
      +2
      Quote: Rotmistr
      Witch Hunt is a creepy process
      It was interesting to read

      The main thing is a thematic topic, just for "military review".
  2. Basil50
    Basil50 1 December 2017 06: 22 New
    13
    The author touched on a very complicated topic - the witch hunt.
    * Witch's hammer * is not just a guide for identifying witches, it is the result of * scientific research *.
    Today we are trying to impose on us the idea of ​​the origin of civilization in Europe and the most advanced ideas and other primacy. They just don’t mention the * sciences * studied at universities in Europe, and it is no coincidence that they don’t even mention that much that today is the basis of many sciences * came * from Asia.
    Christian fanatics destroyed everything they could reach, and there was a deliberate run wild under the strict guidance of the church, regardless of how they prayed to Christ and in what language.
    Today, the church sincerely hopes for the unconsciousness of people ascribes to itself, and only to itself, everything that is possible, from science to morality.
    Muslims only confirm the savagery of believers. That Muslims, that Christians, faith replaces reason with them.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 1 December 2017 09: 30 New
      +4
      Quote: Vasily50
      Christian fanatics destroyed everything they could reach

      Everything, as written. Bible - Old Calls - Pentateuch of Moses:
      "... but the prophet of one or the dreamer must be put to death ..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5).
      “Thou shalt not leave spells alive” (Exodus 22:18).
      “He who sacrifices to the gods, except one gentleman, may he be destroyed” (Exodus 22:20).

      Under the guise of witches and witches, the local elite was destroyed, and in their place invaders came to treat the local population as cattle. Thus, the cross-bearers conquered the floor of the World, including Russia ...
    2. Alex koch
      Alex koch 1 December 2017 09: 51 New
      +6
      By the way, the board of the Holy Inquisition recognized the "Hammer" as not complying with Christian teaching and included it in the "Index of forbidden books")
    3. Monarchist
      Monarchist 1 December 2017 16: 22 New
      +4
      Vasily, you raised a controversial topic: religion and education. Once at the dawn of mankind, a minister of worship: a priest, a shaman, a priest (no matter who) were the most "educated" people, but humanity gradually developed and interfaith separation occurred and some religions lagged behind, while others moved forward.
      If it is very simplified then the following analogy can be imagined: once parents (clergy), to the extent of their education, educated the children, and they outgrew the knowledge of their parents. Parents are different: some are very jealous of their children's knowledge, while others are more tolerant. The same is with religion: Protestants or Catholics are basically close, but Catholics a little (by millimeters) could be more humane than Protestants (depending on the Pope, what kind of character he is), and Protestants are more reserved (especially the Swiss “succeeded” in this : Zurich and Bern were the most "closed")
  3. Settlement Oparyshev
    Settlement Oparyshev 1 December 2017 06: 59 New
    +1
    Fake money was called “Witches.” It was a hunt for them and further tests for counterfeiting in full.
  4. Evgtan
    Evgtan 1 December 2017 07: 31 New
    +1
    The flourishing of religion in any country means only one thing: the people are much more likely to be heard by God than the Government.
  5. parusnik
    parusnik 1 December 2017 07: 49 New
    +5
    Kiteler had his own demon named Robin Artisson, who was an incubus. Well, a different "small things": desecration of churches, evil eye, cooking potions love spell, moving on a broomstick and so on.
    ..Full set... smile
    Under brutal torture, Petronilla de Meath not only surrendered her mistress, fully recognizing the charges on all counts, but also called herself a witch. Richard did not stand on ceremony with her, having heard what he wanted, he immediately ordered to burn de Meath, as a warning to others.
    ... Shurik, this is our method ... We just need to cross ourselves and spit on her very tail, then nothing will happen. I already know all this. After all, in Kiev we have all the women who are sitting in the bazaar - all witches. (Hf "Operation Y" .. N.V. Gogol "Viy")
  6. avva2012
    avva2012 1 December 2017 07: 54 New
    11
    Four husbands. What did this lady own so much that, despite the fact that she was a chronic widow, she still got married? But, after all, the times are dark and the population is superstitious for the most part, they had to run away from her like hell from incense, but no, they get married. Riddles in the dark. However, all the same banal criminality. Judging by the symptoms, the latter was poisoned with some salts of heavy metals, apparently. Before that, everything went without a hitch. Has poison changed for the love of art?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 December 2017 09: 06 New
      +3
      Probably yes. Because in the presence of male children, she did not receive any profit from the death of her husband. Inherited the "sword", but not the "spinning wheel".
      1. avva2012
        avva2012 1 December 2017 09: 57 New
        +2
        Perhaps in the latter case, the same fate awaited the children as did the father? The article, however, does not say what gender the children were.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 1 December 2017 12: 14 New
          +3
          I’m more interested in how Alice managed to endure through four marriages and leave her maiden name in history?
          1. avva2012
            avva2012 1 December 2017 12: 27 New
            +5
            laughing "And who is Ellis and where does she live? What if she does not smoke, but what if she does not drink?" Yes, well, to hell with her, she is a witch! laughing
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 1 December 2017 12: 47 New
              +6
              "-Eight-burn !!!
              - Your Grace, but she is so beautiful!
              "Yes? .... Well then .... But after that - burn it!"
              1. avva2012
                avva2012 1 December 2017 13: 05 New
                +3
                Well, you and the hunter, Comrade Colonel! laughing
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 1 December 2017 16: 02 New
                  +3
                  Well, you and the hunter, Comrade Colonel! laughing

                  corrupting influence of Victor Nikolaevich Kourios laughing entertainer! good
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 December 2017 20: 11 New
                  +2
                  So herz, he doesn’t want peace .....
            2. Mikado
              Mikado 1 December 2017 16: 01 New
              +4
              What if she doesn’t smoke, but what if she doesn’t drink

              Yesterday it was necessary for both to come under an article about Japanese swords - there, according to the above quote, there was a detailed educational program. I, by the way, both mentioned. wink Did not hiccup? laughing
              1. avva2012
                avva2012 1 December 2017 16: 38 New
                +5
                No, Nikolai, did not hiccup, apparently in a dream, until he hiccups. laughing What Japanese swords? This comrade told me everything perfectly: Intelligence: Sergey Polikarpov about the Japanese sword. Sorry, of course, communication.drinks
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 1 December 2017 21: 21 New
                +2
                I didn’t hiccup, coughed, I’ll cough for another three weeks ... at best. And on the "swords" went, but apparently earlier. I read and thought: "Well, what can I say to these enlightened goyim for Japanese fables? Pax vobiscum, children of chrysanthemums!"
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 2 December 2017 13: 16 New
                  +4
                  I re-read the article again. You can add to the name: "and the first detective of Ireland." A man was found, compared the facts, and, in the framework of the legislation and science of that time, acted accordingly. A kind of "Thomas Dewey of the 14th century" (Al Capone also planted for tax evasion).
                  Moreover, everyone unpleasantly surprised him: both the laity and the clergy. In the dioceses of London and Avignon, he began to send numerous letters, in which he spoke in detail about universal drunkenness, fornication and violations of the church charter.

                  To the doctor: it’s about the eternal conversation that people don’t change ... There are rarely fans like the bishop who can go against all. request
                  again, the "witch" had senior patrons. For some reason, I have an analogy with Erzbett Battori. Despite the fact that she went down in history as a "bloody countess", attempts are now being made to prove that she became an innocent victim of the machinations of those who dreamed of sharing her possessions and other goodies. Attempts are weak, but even the film was shot!
                  1. avva2012
                    avva2012 2 December 2017 14: 22 New
                    +4
                    "Fans like the bishop who can go against everyone are rare.
                    The main thing is that they meet at all times, Nikolai. And with proper education, there will be more. Not so long ago they shot a film, "Moscow, Doesn't Believe in Tears," Professor Tikhomirov is shown there. He has a car and lives in the corresponding house. It benefits the people, fellow scientist. And the thought appeared in my head, “learn and you will also have”, and not, “steal and you will have no worse”.
                    1. Mikado
                      Mikado 2 December 2017 14: 28 New
                      +2
                      And the thought appeared in my head, “learn and you will also have”, and not, “steal and you will have no worse”.

                      Are you sure that a person will not follow the path of least resistance? bad is easier to lose than good. It is with him and you have such thoughts appear. And the canonical character Afonya Borshchov reached an acceptable level for him, and ... he no longer needs anything ... That is, the matter is in man. But how much you can redo his "psychological setting" is a big question. We are all different.
                      1. avva2012
                        avva2012 2 December 2017 15: 49 New
                        +4
                        And, for this we need a team. For example, under the name, "the collective of communist labor." laughing When, your comrades, in an accessible form wink , explain that doing this is not good. A man, he is a social being, and only among people like you, a man, becomes a person, not an individual. All attempts to oppose themselves to others, so this is a diversion. Without people, you have to understand, I'm nobody. How then, no one, taking advantage of all the blessings that had been accumulated before him in the form of experience, knowledge, skills, etc., can claim that only I have meaning? In individualism, injustice lies the injustice and hypocrisy of the liberal idea. Afonya Borschev, as a result, either she will recover or his team will finally be rejected. In this case, his fate is not enviable. Sniffs. Note that the film is without a final, which, incidentally, was very often practiced in the Soviet film industry.
  7. inkass_98
    inkass_98 1 December 2017 07: 58 New
    +5
    I read Mallēus Maleficārum at one time, and there is a copy at home. There is nothing special in the book, the usual investigation guide with qualifications of witches by type. Hanging all dogs on Schrenger and Institutor / Kramer is unlawful, they only summarized already established practices.
  8. Korsar4
    Korsar4 1 December 2017 09: 00 New
    0
    What a nice woman. I was carried away by the accumulation of resources and approached this creatively. It's amazing that they stopped.
  9. bober1982
    bober1982 1 December 2017 09: 15 New
    +3
    The author of the article literally on the shelves laid out all the activities of Mrs. Alice - a demonic and bloodthirsty, classic example of a witch, and at the same time she talks about church obscurantism, and how this woman (?) Managed to avoid reprisal from the cruel bishop Richard.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 1 December 2017 10: 08 New
      +5
      That is, according to the logic of the author, the bishop was obscurantist, he wanted to give the poisoner to the court ?! Secular authorities, for a small bribe, were the beacons of nascent democracy, the guardians of sciences (chemistry and toxicology), because, did they save the natural scientist from punishment for sparking? Logically .... sad
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 1 December 2017 10: 11 New
        +1
        Quote: avva2012
        That is, according to the logic of the author, the bishop was obscurantist, he wanted to give the poisoner to the court ?!

        I understood the author, rightly according to Bulgakov - exposing black magic, at the very session of black magic.
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 1 December 2017 10: 42 New
          +5
          In my opinion, many people forget what those times were. General illiteracy below, absolute lack of control of those in power. I don’t want to whitewash the church as an institution, people, people, but at that time the church is the only structure that could support the rule of law without distinguishing between ranks and ranks. Based on the fact that the church had decent means, it, unlike the secular authorities, was less prone to corruption. Moreover, in the church itself with this phenomenon, at least somehow fought. They forget that it was at the cathedrals, monasteries, and science developed that many monuments of human genius have been preserved for centuries, only because they were under the protection of the church. Obscurantists. Yeah, nuclear weapons and war viruses, apparently priests invented and tested on living people.
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 1 December 2017 10: 48 New
            +2
            Yes, everything is true, therefore, they brought into the light of God the so-called Renaissance - debauchery, unbelief, impurity. This was a strong blow to the western church.
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 1 December 2017 10: 53 New
              +4
              To justify the thirst for profit and split the only guard, at least some law and morality, they came up with their heresy, called Protestantism. "Church", which justifies money-grubbing and divides people into clean and unclean, not by spiritual qualities, but by color, development. The Golden Calf and Mammon, here are their gods, in fact.
              1. bober1982
                bober1982 1 December 2017 11: 01 New
                +2
                This was the second blow to the western church - the Reformation, already destructive, then they began to simply finish it off.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 1 December 2017 11: 14 New
                  +5
                  Yes, as now, everything is under the gravy of individual rights. As a result, instead of the bright and the good, the next demonic boil of permissiveness of some and the complete lack of rights of others comes out.
  10. ando_bor
    ando_bor 1 December 2017 09: 51 New
    +2
    When there is nothing to eat and there is no worthy external adversary, they start to burn the superfluous, at the same time they consolidate society in difficult times, I see some still believe in witches and obscurantism.
    And then the small ice age in Europe came, in the Caucasus I saw it with my own eyes, but there the problems were solved differently.
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 1 December 2017 10: 04 New
      +1
      Quote: ando_bor
      I look some still believe in witches and obscurantism.

      But do not believe - this is obscurantism, such a pun comes out. The era of atheism has passed, it was just a transition period.
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 1 December 2017 10: 18 New
        0
        Quote: bober1982
        The era of atheism has passed, it was just a transition period.

        Transition from what to what? From faith in warlocks to faith in God?
        1. bober1982
          bober1982 1 December 2017 10: 32 New
          +2
          Good question (Alice's tricks are not serious)
          In order not to tire, in short. Atheism was necessary, it was necessary to strike at Christianity, and now the Western church essentially does not exist. But since there should not be a vacuum - then the next stage, Satanism, is also a "religion", which we observe in the West, then a single "religion" for everyone and the one who is called an architect. You should know about this, why ask.
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 1 December 2017 23: 53 New
            +2
            Quote: bober1982

            Atheism was necessary, it was necessary to strike at Christianity, and now the Western church essentially does not exist. But since there should not be a vacuum - we are observing, then a single "religion" for everyone and the one who is called an architect. You should know about this, why ask.

            Have you ever tried to look at a world through something different from Christian blinders? Here, for example, there is a cloud in the world, a kueva cloud of people, 5 times a day recalling some kind of “Alla and Bar”. Still, there are a certain number of people recalling 108x64 times a day (at least) about “Hare Krishna” and “Harya Rama”. Still, quite a large number of people break their brains over the meaning of the "Diamond Sutra" and dislocate them solving "koans". And also, some strange, narrow-eyed and not very people are fan of "Tao de jin". And some even respect Confucius. Attention question: Milestones of these citizens where should be attributed to the "Satanists", or to "observe, then a single" religion ""? lol So what, Beaver, could it be better to exhale all the same?
            1. The comment was deleted.
      2. ando_bor
        ando_bor 1 December 2017 14: 32 New
        +2
        Everything is caused by natural reasons, when there is nothing to eat, they start burning, declaring them to be witches, explaining this obscurantism is obscurantism - a complete misunderstanding of the real causes of historical processes.
        It has always been this way, when conditions changed, society reacted adequately, often without understanding the real reasons, explaining everything with different tricks, usually religious, and those who did not adequately and adequately respond, archaeologists unearth and wonder - where did such a developed civilization go.
    2. dzvero
      dzvero 1 December 2017 12: 35 New
      +5
      And then the small ice age in Europe came, in the Caucasus I saw it with my own eyes

      Duncan MacLeod in person or just a relative? good smile
      1. ando_bor
        ando_bor 1 December 2017 14: 37 New
        +4
        Quote: dzvero
        Duncan MacLeod in person or just a relative?

        By myself, I’m an experienced geologist, I’m interested in history, I see what is inaccessible to most.
        1. dzvero
          dzvero 1 December 2017 18: 05 New
          +5
          I also thought that you, most likely a geologist, but could not resist sad Sorry if offended drinks
        2. Mikado
          Mikado 1 December 2017 19: 27 New
          +5
          Myself, I’m an experienced geologist

          Then you, Anatoly, are indispensable on the branch of history! soldier I think many will be happy if you appear more often, participate in discussions and share experiences. Absolutely seriously, with respect, Nikolai hi
          1. ando_bor
            ando_bor 1 December 2017 21: 18 New
            +5
            Quote: Mikado
            Then you, Anatoly, are indispensable on the branch of history!

            Thank you, unfortunately I am not a writer but a reader, the main work does not allow serious articles to be written, but I will be noted in the comments, and not on all issues, but in those of which I see my competence.
  11. Doliva63
    Doliva63 1 December 2017 16: 45 New
    +4
    I have nothing against old Clio, but. Maybe introduce another section on VO - History for children? In any case, I would not waste time on such things.
  12. Monarchist
    Monarchist 1 December 2017 16: 52 New
    +2
    Comrades, it seems to me: Alice Kiteler is a typical "black widow" (there are such spiders), but in fact there was needed not a bishop, but a good police investigator. After all, what is called a hedgehog is clear that her husbands are not "dead" by themselves. I can give a lot of similar stories, but just recommend a book to everyone: Torvald "Age of Criminalistics" M. Progress 1990. A very interesting book on the development of forensic science in Western Europe. There is also an interesting collection: "Blood and Chopping Block" to tell the most vivid crimes in Russia.
  13. Monarchist
    Monarchist 1 December 2017 17: 15 New
    +3
    Quote: avva2012
    In my opinion, many people forget what those times were. General illiteracy below, absolute lack of control of those in power. I don’t want to whitewash the church as an institution, people, there are people, but at that time the church was the only structure that had the means, unlike the secular authorities, it was less susceptible to corruption. Moreover, in the church itself with this phenomenon, at least somehow fought. They forget that it was at the cathedrals, monasteries, and science developed that many monuments of human genius have been preserved for centuries, only because they were under the protection of the church. Obscurantists. Yeah, nuclear weapons and war viruses, apparently priests invented and tested on living people.

    And here I agree with you: the Church: “the only structure that could uphold (and quite effectively) the rule of law.” For example, in Wren of Novgorod the Church is the only force that could protect the slave from sexual harassment on the part of the lord. Or at the time of the feudal fragmentation, only the priest could somehow “stagger” the feudal lord
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 1 December 2017 17: 39 New
      +3
      What a day! I agree with you and with vladimerom. Apparently, that which does not concern politics and ideology can quite unite. In my opinion, almost until the mid-end of the 19 century, the church is the only place where any person could come and receive at least a good word. In the Middle Ages, clergymen were practically the only literate people who could, among other things, provide medical care. The rigid structure of the church made it possible to periodically cleanse itself of any adhering dirt and gave ordinary people at least some hope of justice in life. Unfortunately, politics did not bypass the church, but the church did politics. But unlike the secular authorities, the authority of the church often rested not only on the fear of God, but also on the personal example of hierarchs.
      1. KaPToC
        KaPToC 1 December 2017 21: 21 New
        0
        Quote: avva2012
        But unlike the secular authorities, the authority of the church often rested not only on the fear of God, but also on the personal example of hierarchs.

        You mean, not only on fear, but also on other negative examples from the hierarchs?
    2. KaPToC
      KaPToC 1 December 2017 21: 19 New
      +1
      Quote: Monarchist
      For example, in Wren of Novgorod the Church is the only force that could protect the slave from sexual harassment by the master.

      Oh my god, it’s just incomparable, it’s not for nothing that I read the branch.
      I wonder if the church will be able to protect the rubber doll from sexual harassment on your part?
      Answer yes or no !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      Quote: Monarchist
      Or at the time of feudal fragmentation, only the priest could somehow “stagger” the feudal lord

      A 10% church tax is not for you khukh-mukhra, any feudal lord will howl.
  14. Hantengri
    Hantengri 1 December 2017 23: 09 New
    +4
    Quote: pp to Oparyshev
    Fake money was called “Witches.” It was a hunt for them and further tests for counterfeiting in full.

    Right !!! They hung dinaries, there, sisters and other "bucks" on the rack and asked, affectionately like this: "You, fake, scum !? Ali not !!!" Well, if a piece of paper / piece of iron confessed ... Then they executed her "in a merciful way, and without shedding blood ..." wassat laughing You, Mr. Oparysh, Primer, for the development of the general, revered, or what ?! laughing
  15. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 2 December 2017 16: 36 New
    0
    avva2012,
    Doctor, you will not believe it, this phenomenon is also present among the bourgeoisie, it is called team building. And I am equally sick of that of a collective farm charter, that of corporate ethics.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 2 December 2017 17: 39 New
      +3
      Anton, is this phenomenon the same? In essence, not in outward appearances? In theirs, "tim ...", pah, infection, a slightly different motive is taken as the basis than on the collective farm. Do not find? Between, let's get together to put the lo.ha down and let's get together to do something useful, is there a difference? Our fathers and grandfathers, in the latter case, got on so well that they built a superpower. And what have you set up, free personalities? Nothing. Consolidated personalities eat up what their ancestors left them. You can argue until you turn blue, but, as you know, the theory should be confirmed by practice. 26 years have passed, ay, practice, where are you? Where are you, machine tool industry, civil aviation, al? Armata, T-50, C500, EW, who designed you, free personalities united in corporate parties? No, slaves of the CPSU.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 2 December 2017 21: 02 New
        +1
        I assure you - the phenomenon is the same, because the “cream” in the collective work is usually received by the “leader” who rages most of all (we plowed, I and the tractor) (while our spaceships ....), and he who plows for himself and "that guy" stays with his nose. Sorry, maybe this is personal, but there are too many examples from my life, my parents and grandfathers. Until you publicly explain this “politician” that it is “not our common success, it is the result of my work, and you just went in for a pee,” you will remain “who is lucky, they go on that.
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 3 December 2017 06: 09 New
          +1
          So why, while there were political leaders, did the country give up to 20% of GDP, and now, 1,6? If earlier they talked about ships that plowed open spaces, now who and what plows? 26 years have passed since happiness, when the political leaders of that, and say, “without our rocket engines, the Americans will jump into space on a trampoline,” he, he, he, who designed them? And in which year did the satellite send to Venus? , what now, your personal happiness of working for yourself, where and what did you send the furrow?
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 3 December 2017 09: 10 New
            +2
            My personal happiness of self-employment allows my customers (among whom are far from always rich and even wealthy people) to live in renovated apartments with good communications. And the "politicians" of the toilet could not install normally and could not! I already told you that I have nothing against the social system that existed on the territory of our country. I can not stand the “schwonders” and their capitalist counterpart (I don’t know the name, but it definitely is). And it was not worth going over to the person.
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 3 December 2017 11: 18 New
              +1
              Did I offend you with something? And in my thoughts this was not. Speaking about "that your personal happiness of working for yourself ...", I did not mean you personally, but the ideology that speaks of schwonders. In the artistic work of Bulgakov, Schwonder, this is a certain image. The image of the "scoop", most likely the Soviet one. They sing songs and the master expects that the closure will begin to devastate. Having protruded his lip, Preobrazhensky despises that he would take away his apartment, prepare food. Bylo, should work, not sing songs. And the fact that the civil war has passed, it does not concern him. He sees devastation in his head, because, Ono, dared to read books. Think with whom you personally associate yourself, and then tell yourself if you like the social system that existed or not.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 3 December 2017 11: 56 New
                +2
                Preobrazhensky does not despise his servant, he hates people who instead of working psalms sing
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 3 December 2017 13: 55 New
                  +1
                  Well, in general, Bulgakov does this: "he will fly onto the Earth’s axis." Ah, the people work the same way. Otherwise in the work, heating would break.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 3 December 2017 15: 37 New
                    0
                    Alexander, this is not the first time we are discussing with you on this subject, and I can declare my position on this issue. I really like socialism as a social system. I do not like its implementation in the USSR, regarding the attitude to the quality of life of an individual. I have already given examples.
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 3 December 2017 16: 27 New
                      +1
                      Was Professor Tikhomirov's quality of life poor? Was the quality of life of the welder or steelmaker poor? Anton, the civil war and the Great Patriotic in history, which country could withstand? Yes, somewhere people lived in barracks by the 1991 year, but they lived. Capitalism has made 1974-75g., Generations, practically no, have been chopped. How many old people changed their unpresentable Khrushchev to the bottom of the river or a shallow hole in the forest belt. And, it was not EBN who was cursed, but capitalism. All the most merciless that is inherent in people, he manifests. I remember how they gathered at the entrance to the holidays and left the keys under the rug. How the children played until dark on the street and the girl could walk through the park in the evening. I remember, in my childhood, I dreamed of flying to other planets. What do today's children dream about? Damn it, this system, which turned people into s.kotov, ready to cling to anyone's throat. Have you ever been in court, where the brothers share their mother’s comfortable apartment? Didn’t look at their faces? I think they were in other situations when a person turns into a mor.do because of the dough. Socialism is great because it gave a person the opportunity not to become an animal. I, personally, envy my parents. They have lived most of their lives among people.
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 3 December 2017 17: 59 New
                        0
                        I recently told Shpakovsky that culture is a personal phenomenon and is a consequence of the daily suppression of a monkey in his beloved. And, yes, life in a capitalist society requires much greater efforts in this regard, but the more valuable the result
                    2. avva2012
                      avva2012 4 December 2017 02: 16 New
                      0
                      Monastery? Yes, a good alternative. That's just few who are capable of it, and all will die out. And so, to live with wolves ......, most often, as a result, of a personal "Tao".
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 4 December 2017 07: 55 New
                        0
                        Why a monastery? I do not need special conditions to comprehend the world and my place in it. And even more so, a provider is not needed to communicate with God.
                    3. avva2012
                      avva2012 4 December 2017 09: 59 New
                      +1
                      I don’t agitate you for anything, and it’s stupid. I even lived in another country.