The truth about the creation of the Kalashnikov assault rifle and the German assault rifle Stg-44

About AK-47 in general

Kalashnikov assault rifle, or as it is often called AK - 47, known throughout the world. From its creation in the 1947 year to the entry into service of the USSR Army in the 1949 year, this machine gun was a mandatory participant in all armed conflicts on our planet. For many African tribes, this machine has become something more than just weapon, quite often his image can be found on the national flags of the countries of the continent. This popularity of AK is quite understandable, this machine gun is recognized as the most enduring and killer weapon in its class. Despite its power, it is so unpretentious that it copes well not only with the sands and dust of Africa and Eastern countries, but also with the swamps and jungles of Vietnam. Due to its simplicity, the cost of production of this machine is low, which causes such production volumes. The widespread use of AK-47 was also due to the fact that the modern army, for the most part, retooled for a long time on the modified AK-74, but at the same time, the decommissioned AK-47 is still in excellent condition and continues to work. And of course, there will always be people who will gladly earn money on weapons that have been written off, but still quite usable. Now the armament of the army of the Russian Federation, and most of the CIS countries, is used by various versions of the AK-47, ranging from small police officers AKSU and ending with PKK machine guns.

RPK machine gun (Kalashnikov light machine gun)

AKSU (Kalashnikov Automatic Folding Shortened)

Was there a copy

A lot of secrets and questions are hovering around the creation of this excellent weapon, but the main one is that Kalashnikov did not invent his own machine gun, but simply copied the weapon from the German Stg-44 assault rifle. This rifle was invented by the famous, German, gunsmith Hugo Schmeiser back in 1942 year. Rumors of plagiarism are fueled by the fact that after the war, more than 47 Stg-50 rifle samples were taken out for technical disassembly to the city of Izhevsk, where the AK-44 was actually created. In addition to the rifles themselves, more than 10,000 technical documentation pages about Stg-44 were sent to the plant. Of course, after this evil tongues began to talk about the fact that Kalashnikov just slightly changed the Stg-44, and released his AK-47 machine gun. It is known for certain that after the occupation by the Allied forces of the city of Suhl, the production of weapons in Germany was prohibited, and a little later, in 1946, Hugo Schmeisser and his family offered to go to the Ural weapons factories as a consultant. It is also known that the German lived for some time in Izhevsk, and it was after this that the creation of the legend, AK-47, was completed.

If you make such conclusions, then all the weapons of the world are copied from each other. By and large, the AK-47 and the German Stg-44 assault rifle have similarities only in appearance and in the trigger mechanism. But even in this question, Kalashnikov cannot be blamed for stealing the idea of ​​this mechanism from Hugo Schmeisser, since the German himself borrowed it from Holek, who had developed the first self-loading rifles ZH-20 back in 29.

Self-loading rifle ZH-29

If you look at the middle part of the rifle, then a similar design can be seen in any modern machine gun, but for some reason it does not occur to anyone to say that all modern weapons are copied from this self-loading rifle.

Kalashnikov could really take the German rifle as the basis for creating his assault rifle, but the AK-47 is an original invention that is completely different from the German model not only in its tactical and technical characteristics, but also in its internal structure. Almost all the details and important components in the AK-47 are completely different from the STG-44. Moreover, even the principle of parsing these automatic rifles is completely different. The difference is visible everywhere, starting from the locking mechanism, rotary lock at AK-47 and skew at STG-44; STG and AK fire mode translators are completely different, the trigger principle of operation, despite its similarity, also has different practical implementations. If we consider each detail of the machines separately, then you will not find anything in common with each other.

STG-44 and AK

If we talk about ammunition for these machines, then they have an external similarity, however, like many other ammunition in the world. This is not surprising, because this form of a bullet is recognized as the most successful in all ballistic characteristics. Further, if we talk about the caliber, then in AK-47, as is known, the cartridge of the caliber 7,62 × 39 mm is used. The STG-44 used the cartridge 7.92x33. A similar caliber can also be explained quite easily, because before creating weapons of this type, the main weapon was various rifles with a caliber 7,62.

Cartridges for AK and for STG-44

If we talk about "plagiarism", then Kalashnikov could rather liken his machine gun to another Russian-made weapon - to the Bulkin machine gun or TKB-415 machine gun, which, unfortunately, was not completely finalized, and did not go into serial production, despite the good design and specifications. Unfortunately for those who like to blame M. Kalashnikov for plagiarism, AK-47 and TKB-415 also have nothing in common except the appearance.

Automatic Bulkina TKB-415

Сonclusion

In conclusion, it should be said that in AK-47 there are indeed many elements copied from weapons of various types, but this was done not in order to deliberately copy weapons, but in order to collect all the best that was developed in the field of automatic weapons of the time . Thanks to his ability to evaluate and choose the best, Kalashnikov managed to create such a magnificent weapon that has been used by countries of the whole world for more than 50 for years and is not obsolete. It should also be noted that if the Kalashnikov copied the German STG-44 rifle, why then the release of this weapon was not continued, because the STG-44 can only be found in private collections or museums, and the Kalashnikov assault rifle continues constantly being modified, each time turning into an increasingly formidable weapon.

Comments

[Khabarov]

Plagiarism of Mikhail Timofeevich is a bullshit. So you can blame S. Korolev, he also studied Brown's documentation and the first missiles were similar. where is "fa", and where is "Soyuz" ?.

[dmitryg]

AK is an original invention, not because everything is ingenious, but because the Stg design did not meet the basic requirements - simplicity, reliability, and that it was possible to sculpt it on any machine.

But the first missiles are mostly licked from the Germans. A rocket is not just a piece of metal.

Well, again - the idea of ​​an intermediate cartridge was picked up after the Germans. They are the pioneers. The very phrase "assault rifle" was invented personally by Hitler.

Copying good things is not shameful.

[Khabarov]

"AK is an ingenious invention, not because it is brilliant, but because STG-44 was at that time d" rmo ". Sorry, dmitryg, nichr" I did not understand the logic of your thoughts.

[dmitryg]

It seems to me that I have explained everything very clearly. Stg 44 had its own requirements, and, since it was adopted, it means that they are met.

The requirements for AK were different: so that a child could make him and a child could shoot from him. The Germans were not going to take over the world.

AK justified the claimed requirements by 200%, and therefore it is a masterpiece. You just don’t have to compare the plane and the submarine.

[revnagan]

Quote: dmitryg

The Germans were not going to take over the world.

Whoa ... So they lied to us all the time, the Nazi Reich didn’t plan any world master? Well, thanks for enlightening us.

[dmitryg]

Stg 44 is not like a model of mass weapons, which are produced in hundreds of millions.

Of course, they wanted to capture the world, but not with the help of Stg 44.

I mean, the goal of AK is simple, cheap, reliable, massive. There is no other way to take over the world.

[gigiperfetto]

And it is necessary to defend with complex, expensive and unreliable weapons! US defends missile defense and Aegis!

[dmitryg]

I’ll tell you a secret - Russia is also defending (attention!) PRO !!! We all will die?!?!??!

See tests SM-2, SM-3. This is not a mace cut from plywood.

[leon-iv]

I lay under the table jerking legs
Tell me about the method of organizing target selection?
It’s also enchanting to find out HOW they shot down this satellite

[de_monSher]

Gee, gee, gee ... and what's so awesome with Standart Missle? Or how will it sound in Latin - a rocket like a vulgar? *))) And so what? *)

[Sergl]

dmitryg,

In fact, the Germans never and in anything in terms of weapons had no emphasis on mass character and technological effectiveness.
The vast majority of their weapons are technically difficult to manufacture and operate, since the emphasis was on technically trained specialists.
They have a different approach to solving engineering problems.
And this also stems from Nazi ideology.

The Soviet Union, which built up heavy industry by the great stress at the beginning of the war and almost lost it during the disastrous company of 1941, had no choice but to make a lot of weapons simple to manufacture, which, albeit slightly inferior in characteristics to the enemy.

And the presence of tens of thousands of T-34s and hundreds of thousands of machine guns does not mean the desire to enslave the whole world and kill all people , to return my ...

But the presence of thousands of long-range bombers (B-17, B-29, etc.) speaks only of the peaceful intentions of their masters and they did not even hear about any Italian Douai ...

[dmitryg]

Hundreds of thousands of machines appeared after May 9, 1945 When its all has been returned.
Bombers were again used to win the Second World War and were riveted at the same time.

I’m talking about weapons after 45 - hundreds of thousands of tanks and tens of millions of machine guns. Too much for defense.

[de_monSher]

No, not a lot ... *)) in the absence of nuclear parity, one hope remained, for a breakthrough to the west, in the case of nuclear bombing of the USSR. Or do you want to say that in the USA, there were no plans for nuclear bombing of the USSR? *))

[Raven1972]

For example, Dropshot, Chariotir, and so on ... Dropshot: According to the plan, it was planned to drop 300 atomic bombs of 50 kilotons and 200000 tons of conventional bombs per 100 Soviet cities at the first stage, 25 of them atomic bombs to Moscow, 22 to Leningrad, 10 - to Sverdlovsk, 8 - to Kiev, 5 - to Dnepropetrovsk, 2 - to Lviv, etc. The plan provided for the development of ballistic missiles for the economical use of available funds.
The date of the outbreak of hostilities is January 1, 1957.

[Sergl]

dmitryg,
By the end of the Second World War, about 5 million PPSh were delivered to the troops.
Yes, and only the absence of true bombers between the Americans with the true intercontinental range saved the USSR in the late 40s from nuclear bombing. This, and even the presence of a multi-million dollar combat-ready army
Well this is so, by the way.

And on account of the supposedly excessive amount of weapons - sir, remember what kind of war the Soviet Union was preparing for at least until the mid-80s? To nuclear. Therefore, so many weapons and equipment were accumulated in the warehouses of the mobility reserve to guarantee that the mobilized and the rest of the country were supplied with everything necessary, even with the condition of losses from nuclear attacks on large cities and storage areas explored by the enemy.

The experience of 1941 showed that in the initial period of a new war it is foolish to hope that industry will provide the troops with everything necessary (it will not be easy).
And the call in the case of a nuclear ... in general, in the context of the post-apocalypse will be the entire surviving population. And the army must fight on the accumulated pre-war reserves.

In such conditions, the accumulated might not be enough.

[mind1954]

Our motto has always been! GOAL FOR FABRICATION OF THE Sly!

[Tyumen]

Quote: dmitryg

AK - simple, cheap, reliable, mass. No way to capture the world

Are you hinting at your royal face?

[Cynic]

Quote: Tyumen 35

hinting at?

Does he hint?
It is made clear: the USSR through / method of invention and production of AK captured the world!
Is not it so ?

[bistrov.]

Sorry, you have some kind of twisted consciousness. This capture of the world was given to you. In your opinion, Kalashnikov, creating his machine gun, was thinking primarily about taking over the world? The sergeant of the Red Army dreams of taking over the world! I can directly see the headlines in leading newspapers in large print.

[dmitryg]

And here, in general, Kalashnikov? He thought how to create an automaton. What to do with these machines - thought the nomenclature.

Well, in general, not sour, you furnished everything. Maybe 100 peaceful Soviet "tractors" of all kinds of models from T-000 to T-54 in Germany are for defense, right?! ??!

[Cynic]

Quote: dmitryg

100 peaceful Soviet "tractors"

And 10 thousand couriers, too!

[de_monSher]

You have a clear bias in the mind, human ... *) as it turned out, "100.000 tractors" = I leave your spelling =, it turned out to be not enough to crush the plutocratic empire of evil - the USA ... unfortunately ... *)

[ariy_t]

Yes, for defense ... It is for defense .. This is a possible response to the use of weapons of mass destruction ...

[Schmeiser44]

He did not create it. He ratted Hugo. This stupid bumpkin even with his rats.

[Alex]

Quote: dmitryg

I mean, the goal of AK is simple, cheap, reliable, massive. There is no other way to take over the world.

Perhaps you were referring to the capture of the global arms market? Then we can agree. I think anyone understands that the world is not being captured by one type of weapon.

[Civil]

deceived the damned Reich, said that the world will be taken .. and themselves ...

[ikrut]

"The Germans were not going to take over the world."
What are you ??? really? and he himself guessed about it? And what did Adolf Aloizovich lie to everyone? From the same - how they managed to classify their intentions! some still believe :))) That is - the rifle was made exclusively for collectors, which would be released singly and used exclusively in sanitary conditions?
Explain to the stupid one more time, plz, what can the requirements for MASS small arms like an automatic rifle in different countries differ in such a way as to significantly affect the purpose and quality of these weapons?

[Cynic]

Quote: dmitryg

The Germans were not going to take over the world.

Strongly said.
Spring is in the yard.

[de_monSher]

It’s interesting how ... *)))) it means, according to your logic, that Hitler wanted to plant flowers all over the world, arrange dances, well, use his arms to parade at parades, but did the USSR sleep and mimic world domination? *))))) Nude, nude ...

[dmitryg]

Let's take the facts - at first the Third Reich slept and dreamed, then the USSR was paired with the USA.
As a result, means of instant courier delivery of nuclear gifts appeared and the situation became stalemate.

My idea is that you can’t get a lot of war with German weapons of the 40s. Everything is cool, cool and soft like a Tiger pendant. But it’s of little use, because it is expensive and difficult.

[Zynaps]

Quote: dmitryg

Let's take the facts - at first the Third Reich slept and dreamed, then the USSR was paired with the USA.

it doesn't smell like facts here. The USSR terminated the activities of the Comintern in 1943 at the great request of the Allies. despite the fact that the organs of the Comintern were in fact Soviet intelligence agencies and agents of influence. after WWII, CCCH asked the West for peaceful coexistence. but the hell there - in response - Truman Doctrine, an attempt to American expansion in China, then the war in Korea and, as a finale, the creation of NATO.

the idea of ​​the World Revolution was actually stopped after the deportation from Trotsky’s country.

Quote: dmitryg

As a result, means of instant courier delivery of nuclear gifts appeared and the situation became stalemate.

and how did nuclear weapons help the US in Korea and Vietnam? USSR in Afghanistan? fought with conventional weapons, losing soldiers and equipment.

no one canceled conflicts of low intensity, which, with a skillful approach, can drink a lot of blood even from a large and strong country. it is a pity that Khrushchev and Brezhnev abandoned Che Guevara's principle in relation to the United States - "hundreds, thousands of Vietnamese." especially in Latin America.

[Alex]

Quote: dmitryg

The Germans were not going to take over the world.

Yes? And I thought they were going to ...

Quote: dmitryg

Stg 44 had its own requirements, and, since it was adopted, it means that they are met.
The requirements for AK were different: so that a child could make him and a child could shoot from him.

Well, it’s hard to argue with the first one: if they accepted, then they decided that it was appropriate. But there’s also a misunderstanding with the second one: didn’t it have been presented with AK requirements (in terms of weight, accuracy, range, rate of fire, etc.)?

Quote: dmitryg

AK justified the stated requirements by 200%, and therefore it is a masterpiece.

I agree, but

no need to compare the plane and the submarine.

somehow confusing. If you use your analogy, then we can talk about different modifications of submarines (or aircraft): the tasks, EMNIP, had to perform the same.

[Cynic]

Quote: Khabarov

did not understand the logic of your thoughts.

Logic in its absence!

[Schmeiser44]

What is the logic? He is a dumb animal.

[Charon]

The idea of ​​our intermediate cartridge is Fedorovskaya. Until 1942 I was informed of three designs of intermediate cartridges. Here the Germans are by no means original.
In general, in STG the only truly unique unit was the ramrod inside the gas vent mechanism. Everything else has already been invented. Many of our gunsmiths.
STG - compilation. AK is a more advanced copillation.

[dmitryg]

6,5x50 - what is it intermediate?
If you know intermediate cartridges up to 7,92x33 - share it. Well, not just ammo - but assault rifles too.

[Charon]

6,5x50 is the Japanese cartridge for Arisaka used by Fedorov. Based on the results of the application, Fedorov concluded that it was necessary to create an intermediate.

Cartridges:

6,5x40 mm Fedorov (1916)
8x35 mm Ribeyrolle (1918)
7,65x35 mm (1921)
7,65x37 mm (1923),
.30 Carbine (7,62x33 mm) (1940)

Weapon
Priority in both development and serial production of the intermediate cartridge and weapons for it belongs to F. Manlicher, 7,65x32 XPL and Pistolenkarabiner M1903 under this cartridge.

Ribeyrolle 1918 - French experimental automatic rifle under the experimental cartridge 8x35 mm. Created in 1918 by an engineer Ribeirol - one of the designers of the Chauchat machine gun. The 8x35 mm cartridge is close to intermediate in its characteristics, which gives reason to consider the Ribeirol automatic carbine as one of the predecessors of modern assault rifles.

.30 Carbine (7,62x33 mm) - a unitary cartridge developed in the USA during World War II for use in the M1 light carbine.

That is, the idea is by no means new.

[HOUSES]

Here is just a little incorrect statement. Of course, Arisaka is not an intermediate cartridge, but I think that at that time there was no such thing in nature. It was simply used in the Fedorov assault rifle as a lightweight one (read intermediate).

[ariy_t]

Have you heard the groves?

[bistrov.]

You are mistaken, dear! They forgot that back in 1916 Fedorov created his machine gun specifically for the intermediate cartridge of the Japanese Arisaka rifle, since it was weaker than the rifle cartridge. The revolution prevented the development of this idea, but work in this direction continued in the USSR. Of course, it was not easy to overcome the inertia of high-ranking military men of that time, who believed that nothing but a rifle was needed, remember how much they did not "let" submachine guns and self-loading and automatic rifles into the army, for example, the AVS-36 rifle was removed from service only for because Marshal Kulik was afraid of overspending of cartridges. The Second World War simply spurred a rethinking of the tactics of using small arms, when there were no large masses of cavalry, and the attack was no longer in formation. Apparently you inattentively read the article, look at the intermediate Soviet and German cartridges, they are completely different, work on creating weapons for an intermediate cartridge ended in the USSR in 1944 with the creation of the famous Simonov SKS-45 carbine, and he also managed to fight, and in 1945 was adopted and is still in service today.

[Charon]

Of course, the Japanese cartridge is not intermediate, it is a weak rifle. As well as the Manlicher cartridge in fact - a powerful pistol. But from the direction of Manlicher, this is the first step in the right direction.
A Japanese cartridge with a semi-zakraina 6,5 × 50 is what Fedorov had at his disposal. Based on the experience gained, a 6,5x40 cartridge without a flange was developed.
And it was Fedorov who justified the need for an intermediate cartridge.

[dmitryg]

Ammo - it turns out, really were before the Germans, yes. SCS is generally an excellent carbine. But the relatively massive combat use of assault rifles with automatic fire is still the Stg 44. Automatic rifles with full-size cartridges do not count.
Assault rifles forever changed the image of a soldier. Unless exoskeletons do and give each 12,7 machine gun

[Zynaps]

It was not the Germans who invented the intermediate cartridge. the idea was to develop a medium power cartridge between a rifle and a pistol hovering in the air before the PMV. for that matter, the sources must be sought from Fedorov.

[Alex]

Quote: dmitryg

But the first missiles are mostly licked from the Germans.

And what was lapped? Work on liquid-fuel rockets was carried out before the war, and, as far as possible, during the war. Korolev himself came to many constructive and technological ideas: in the end, we knew a lot about the jet movement without Brown.

[rope]

All brilliantly tight, huh? ahah how stinger stolen or nuclear op

[Vova Sapunenko]

An intermediate cartridge of 7,62 mm and a sleeve of 33 mm. Was invented by an American from the USA, and the Germans copied the development of the caliber. In the USSR, there was an excellent caliber of 7,62 x 25 mm., But the bullet had to be tinted and then it would be like a rarity with an analogue of 7,62 x 33 mm. German sample. By the way, the Soviet intermediate cartridge for TKB * (Blkin), Korobov, Dementiev, Skzhaev -44, Simonov, AK -46, AK-47, AK-48 assault rifles were 7,62x41 mm caliber. But starting with AK-47 and 49, caliber was already 7,62x39 mm. Since 1968, the caliber was already 5,45x39mm., On the AK-74. But instead of the AK-74, it was supposed to be in service with the SA and Navy, the AS-006 assault rifle, which was created by the veteran of the Great Patriotic War and the war with Japan, the signalman Alexander Alekseevich Zaitsev, together with Alexei Sokolov, Konstantinov, Garanin !!! Moreover, Zaitsev, Vasya Ryzhiy, Alexei Sokolov created AK-47, but the rogue Mikhail Kalashnikov, appropriated all the achievements to himself with the help of the Ministry of State Security of the USSR. In a word, Kalashnikov never knew how to read blueprints and draw them !!!

[marauder]

in the picture are two disassembled STG-44 and AK-46 assault rifles
and where then AK47?
In general, the theme of Bayan.

[rexby63]

You have not yet counted the number of "button accordions" among the opponents of this article. So it's better to remind once again than to remain silent

[HOUSES]

Yes, and since when is the AKS-74U considered a police weapon. Then it’s more like a traffic police.

[Mesniy]

Hugo Schmeisser lived in prison in Izhevsk at the plant until 1953, there is no question of plagiarism, the AK-47 was simply made by Hugo Schmasser. He would have made many more outstanding examples of "Soviet" small arms, but in 1952 he was released to Germany - to die from tuberculosis, he was terminally ill.
Therefore, it is correct to call this sample ASH-47 - Schmeiser automaton.
But for the scoop, this is a bust, but at the same time, famous Soviet designers (Shpagin, Tokarev, Simonov and others) apparently as well-educated people did not consider it possible to put their name under someone else’s product. This is where the unknown sergeant Kalashnikov came in handy, not after having proved itself by nothing.
By the way, if you dig, then under Stalin, everyone who did something significant - a designer, pilots - heroes, etc. - received state awards, titles, prizes, apartments and cars. Kalashnikov did not get ANYTHING! Until Putin remembered him, he did a sergeant general, a hero, and relocated from a communal apartment to an apartment.
I do not like Stalin, but I respect his ability to notice and celebrate the people necessary for the country. Stalin did not notice Kalashnikov, nor did he mention it in any way. In this matter, I believe in the genius of Hugo Schmasser, who was repeatedly confirmed in the design of small arms, and I believe "the foresight of the father of nations ", who did not make mistakes in such matters.
Yes, and think for yourself - for many years Hugo Schmasser, a great designer, has worked at the plant, and the sergeant Kalashnikov is just NOBODY, there are two options: either Kalashnikov sharpened pencils for Schmasser and was assigned to him to serve and guard, or Hugo Schmasser - the famous the designers were transported from Germany so that he would run for beer for the sergeant.
For me, Stalin’s position on this issue is quite authoritative - and he didn’t note the cantorized sergeant in any way - he simply didn’t notice him.
By the way, in the USSR, many thousands of German designers worked in numbered design bureaus (mainly near Kazan) until the 60s, and the first samples of "Soviet" jet aircraft were lifted into the air by German test pilots. And much more, not only military equipment, and not only the notorious Opel - 401 Muscovite, the first "Soviet" large-scale small car, but also state television, many programs - copies of the German 40s.
I know that many people screech and start to scream, I don’t care, take a minus if it’s easier for you to live, just gentlemen, dig in, and you will see a lot of interesting things and realize that I’m right.

[felixis69]

Totally agree with you! For some reason, many perceive the truth as anti-patriotism! ... I support everything that you wrote here! Moreover, simple hardworking gunsmiths from Izhevsk confirm this, and everything is transmitted through dynasties there!

[Viktor123]

Messy! What are you smoking with felix? Or are you sniffing glue? Determine first where Schmeiser lived in the "prison", and where Kalashnikov lived and worked. And read what Schmeiser and the rest of the German specialists did. Certainly not weapons development. And read the opinion of German specialists about him that he did in the USSR. And what kind of conclusion are we talking about? He lived in a comfortable apartment. Those specialists who brought their families and children with them - the children went to an ordinary Soviet school. German holiday specialists went out into nature to have a rest, etc. because? Good "conclusion". Sit down with a pencil and honestly answer each question for yourself. And see what happens.

[loc.bejenari]

of course not a conclusion -whether -I took the train at any minute -and to Vaterland
current hto let him go)))))
well, Kalashnikov was appointed creator of AK 47
Well, do not write the same Schmeiser automaton 47
shame is not fixed

[Joker]

Quote: loc.bejenari

loc.bejenari

They tell you that ento is a tomato, and you are yelling an apple, an apple !!!

[Zynaps]

Quote: Mesniy

But for the scoop, this is a bust, but at the same time, famous Soviet designers (Shpagin, Tokarev, Simonov and others) apparently as well-educated people did not find it possible to put their name under someone else's product.

that's just for rags to carry a dumb blizzard is not too much, but the meaning of their musty life.

purely for experts. Hugo Schmeiser was taken to Izhevsk and there, cumulatively, was found not of interest. he did not have a special education, and, without his design bureau, was not of great value. The Kalashnikov assault rifle, as we know it, was brought to mind by the gunsmiths of the Degtyarev school, in Kovrov, without the involvement of Schmeiser. the degtyarevites already had vast experience in designing small arms. AK has several creators. constructor Zaitsev, for example. and also, if the experts knew at least a little about weapon mechanics, they would have known that the AK trigger was made according to the Holek scheme, and the barrel is locked with a rotary bolt, and not with a skewed bolt, like in the "Sturmgever".

Quote: Mesniy

and not only the notorious Opel - 401 Muscovite, the first "Soviet" large-scale small car, but also state television, many programs - copies of the German 40s.

Come on, come on, from here in more detail. what was there on the state television from the Germans? program "Visiting a Fairy Tale"? "More good and different products?" "Blue light"? aaaa !!! "Melodies and rhythms of foreign stage" with the ballet of the GDR television !!! bingo!!!

the fact that after the war in the USSR a modified German consumer goods were produced - then you don't need to go to the grandmother. if the trophy drawings fell into the hands and the equipment for reparations was exported to the Union, then the direct meaning was to make it German. I will even say a terrible thing: in the USSR they copied the Italian post-war fiat "Cinquecento" and made a "humpback" "Zaporozhets" on its basis. and at the plant in Vyatka, they mastered the Italian "Vespa" and made good scooters "Vyatka" and "Electron" from it.

about the participation of the Germans in the development of Soviet aviation and missiles, instead of speculation, I suggest reading the four-volume Academician Chertok "People and Rockets". written in excellent Russian, by a person who personally took part. maybe a little clears the brain.

Quote: Mesniy

just gentlemen, dig in, and you will see a lot of interesting things and you will understand that I'm right.

Mr. - counter proposal. stop smoking wheat grass and learn materiel.

[Mesniy]

Quote: Zynaps

about German participation in the development of Soviet aviation and missiles, instead of speculation,

just read about the testing of owl jets, well, of course not published in soviet times.
learn the materiel.

[Zynaps]

teach your wife to cook cabbage soup, expert.

Quote: Mesniy

Well, of course not published in Soviet times.

the use of the word "scoop" with the head gives out a mindless and flawed rag. the phrase about "naturally not published" additionally and eloquently speaks of the stuffy conspiracy theorist of the kindergarten level "they hid everything from us."

who studied by profession, and did not smoke a primer in a school jubilee, he knew what, where and why had appeared. so that the opinion of experts from expert vocational schools with their exposures and breakdowns is valued at the level of dirt adhering to the shoes.

[Vova Sapunenko]

You are wrong ! AK-47, created in the collective of the Degtyarev Kovrov plant, gunsmiths Alexander Alekseevich Zaitsev, Vasily Ryzhiy, Alexei Sokolov and a number of other Kovrov specialists. And the prokhrdimets - Komsomol organizer, sergeant Kalashnikov, under the roof of the MGB, being an informer of the USSR MGB, simply appropriated these achievements , put signatures on the drawings, which were drawn by Alexander Alekseevich Zaitsev and a team of Kovrov specialists. Moreover, the basis of the AK 47 was the SVT-38 * (Tokarev) and SKS-44, AS-44 * (Sudaeva), TKB * (Bulkina), * (Dementieva), * (Korobov) rifles. All samples of the drawings were copied by Major Vasily Lyuty, who was the commandant, tested the studio on the artillery range in Shchurovo, Kolomensky district, Moscow region. It was Vasya Lyuty, who issued the sergeant "(deserter of the Red Army of tank forces) Sergeant Kalashnikov, to the Kovrovsky plant, with the design of the future AK-47 !!!. Vasya Lyuty himself, later, ended up in the Gulag, on the denunciation of the traitor Kalashnikov !!!

[Phoenixl]

Sudaev's assault rifle (AS-44) is an assault rifle developed by Alexei Sudayev in 1944, which has become the best submachine gun in the competition of NPOs of the USSR.

Alexey Ivanovich Sudaev (August 23, 1912 - August 17, 1946) - Soviet weapons designer, major.

[Davidson]

I will disappoint you twice, firstly about Kalashnikov that he had torn a machine gun from German I knew about 10 years ago, and now it is easily confirmed on the Internet on many resources. And secondly, S. Korolev was Ukrainian and not Russian, was born and lived in the city of Zhytomyr, so his invention with Russians has nothing to do with it. The only thing that he launched Gagarin into space on his invention

[Vova Sapunenko]

Korolev was 100% Russian, was born in the Russian Empire !!! Moreover, before the formation of the Ukrainian People's Republic on the Rights of Autonomy in the RSFSR * (future USSR), Sergey Palych Korolyov was, according to documents, Russian * (a native of Little Russia). There is another example about the origin of the Russian citizen of the Russian Empire, this is the famous Russian inventor of aviation in Russia, Igor Sikorsky !!! His son, now living in the USA, told reporters that his father, Igor Sikorsky, considers himself a Russian and has dreamed of returning to Russia all his life !!!

[Nikolay Shestakov]

Unlike Kalashnikov, Korolev S.P. said bluntly that the first rocket that flew into space was a copy of the FAU -2. Subsequently, the engineer Korolev, based on additional knowledge and experience, made his missiles. The education received allowed Kolev S.P. do it. Before the war, he did his work until he was planted. Kalashnikov M.T. before AK, he did not create a single small weapon that would go into a series. Several classes of education and most importantly party organizer. AK brand, which is nurtured and supported in every way. The articles on brand protection focus mainly on all sorts of differences in fine details. But the great similarity, the principle of operation and the main design units are the same. The small arms business is a business. Until I discovered the sources that German designers, engineers led by Hugo, had worked for more than 10 years in Izhevsk, I also believed. But German engineers did not transport coal in trolleys with their families in Izhevsk. I admit that there was some kind of co-authorship. We will not know the whole truth soon. I do not beg for merits of M.T. Kalashnikov as a veteran. He fought in the Second World War as a senior sergeant and was seriously injured. All WWII veterans are sacred to me. I do not consider it shameful for our country to appropriate other people's developments and inventions from the country that attacked us. We are a victorious country. But in matters of gaining knowledge of history, I like to receive true historical facts without fiction or additions. And please do not write to me about adaptation to the TT, a call to Zhukov, a clock from Zhukov, the creation of a device for recording the operation of a tank engine. See better how Marshal Zhukov was forced to include in his memoirs episodes of a meeting with Colonel Brezhnev on Malaya Zemlya, as well as the authorship of books: Malaya Zemlya, Renaissance and Tselina.

[Vova Sapunenko]

The basis of the AK-47, were drawings of the Patoyat Sudaev, the Bulkin assault rifle, the Dementiev assault rifle, the Korobov assault rifle, the Simonov assault rifle !!! And the basis of all the basics was the SVT * (Tokarev) and * (Dekhtyarev) rifles !!! As for the German Sturmgever -42,43,44, this is only an external resemblance to the SVT and SVD rifles. In turn, Tokarev and Deztyarev, Simonov, copied the rifles from the American Garand rifle, slightly modifying them under the powerful Soviet cartridge 7,62x54mm. Although Garand had 7,62x33mm cartridges. Hugo Schieiser never invented anything, as he was simply the private director of his father’s inherited factory. Schmpayser never knew anything about weapons, let alone read blueprints !!! Hugo, in Izhevsk was needed only for setting up a stamping machine, for the production of carob shaped stores, for the future AK-47-49. Although the AS-44 * submachine gun (Sudaev) already had a horn store, chambered for 7,62x41 mm, like Bulkin TKB-46, Dementiev, Korobov, Simonov.

[German]

I do not understand how much you can procrastinate this topic! Anyone who understands a little bit of technology in general and in weapons in particular will say that the Stg44 and AK47 are two big differences! there is no need to be a specialist in the field of armaments --- just take a closer look! but the fact that M.T. the Westerners are haunted by the Russian (Soviet) technical genius ...

[Khabarov]

But interestingly, in the "People's Daily" there are articles on the topic of plagiarism? Or do they fundamentally fail to understand such words?

[HOUSES]

The Kalashnikov assault rifle is the same Russian brand as vodka, matryoshka, black caviar, etc., etc. The theme is certainly nasty. And the more she procrastinates, the greater the desire for some to challenge the authorship of Mikhail Timofeevich, and others to put a bullet in this discussion. I remind you that AK (in the western version of the AK-47) was created immediately after a bloody war, in conditions of economically not the most, to put it mildly, suitable. No one, I hope, thinks that the young sergeant of the Soviet Army alone stood by the culman, he himself worked on turning and milling machines. A large team of professionals worked, both Soviet and German. Even in modern greenhouse conditions, the state cannot afford to develop, much less release, a trial series of several models of small arms. Kalashnikov assault rifle is the quintessential development of all Soviet gunsmiths who were engaged in small arms at the time. And then there were no such concepts as intellectual property or a trademark. What prevented American designers from developing a similar automatic rifle in the late 40s? After all, on sure, they also studied the captured SturmGewehr in hot pursuit. Why did they start developing such weapons only after the AK fell into their hands in 1956, and they entered service only in the mid-60s? For sixty years, the Soviet and then the Russian army have been armed with the best small arms in the world, a Kalashnikov assault rifle and replacements with him, as I understand it, is not expected in the near future. It is very difficult to invent anything remotely resembling this machine gun - the machine gun of the great Russian gunsmith Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov.

[alexng]

This machine has incorporated all the best and with the most optimal layout, with the exception of recoil and bullying upwards in long lines. But probably it was the shooter who pulled the long lines. For these purposes (long bursts) there are machine guns. And in terms of reliability, the AK family is second to none.

[Nikolay Shestakov]

I saw the rationale in your answer. "A large team of professionals, both Soviet and German, worked." “And then there were no such concepts as intellectual property or a trademark.” It's just that we have it that way: there are thousands of engineers working for a brand, and authorship is given to only one. As for the AK, the German engineers also contributed to the creation, like the Soviet ones. And the name was given to only one person. As for Hugo Schmeisser, his photograph was kept by Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov. And about him Kalashnikov M.T. said he had found his good name.

[d.gksueyjd]

Bravo! I completely agree with you. If you look closely at the US doc.cinema Operation Desert Storm, the Americans abandoned their vaunted М16А3, for some reason with outdated, inaccurate, with a high recoil momentum, but reliable AK47.

[dmitryg]

Share what kind of movie is so interesting. And what the naval M16A3 forgot in the Desert Storm.

And stop writing AK47. There is no such machine. There are AK, AKM, AK-74 and so on.

[Raven1972]

And not only in the Desert Storm, in Vietnam, too ... After killing a Viet Cong, an American soldier took his AK first of all ...

[Vova Sapunenko]

And here the Westerners and liberals are here ??? Archive of the KGB of the USSR, states that Kalashnikov never knew how to draw weapons drawings and read them !!! Everything was brought to mind with AK-47-49, Kovrovets Alexander Zaitsev, Alexey Sokolov, Vasya Ryzhiy. But left them all the primary ideas of the drawings, Major Vasya Lyuty, through the party organizer - Sergeant Miztei Kalashnikov. The literate Altai Kalashnikov was supported by the Central Committee of the CPSU and the USSR Ministry of Defense, and nobody recognized the true inventor of AK-47, Aleksandr Alekseevich Zaitsev. Moreover, the KGB of the USSR constantly threatened Zaitsev that he would not rock the boat and put up with it, that Kalashnikov became the creator of AK-47 and AK-74.

[Joker]

I watched a program recently on this topic, ours admitted that the AK was created on the basis of many different types of small arms of the time. On one thing then no attention was paid. In any case, ours made the best automatic machine in the world at that time, the then m-16 was even worse in reliability than its current modifications, and besides, it had only the firing mode for the 3 cartridge and one at a time, its automatic fire did not have.

[dmitryg]

Quote: Joker

she had only a firing mode of 3 rounds and one at a time, she had no automatic fire

Where did you get the idea that this is bad? Morpehovskaya M16A4 has a cut-off of 3 rounds and no one complains.

The AR-15 has dozens of modifications, and the shooting modes in them are not the main thing.

[Joker]

No, well, if you shoot from behind the walls of the base, as the Americans do, it’s not bad. And in battle, when you need to press the enemy to the ground, you cannot do without an automatic fire regime. Plus, it’s much easier to hit the moving target with the automatic mode, while when cutting off three rounds you need to quickly pull the trigger in case of a miss, which will lead to twitching movements of the shooter, which accordingly affects the same accuracy. And we took a fan from the line, launched it, let it hit one, plus we have enough caliber to have enough of this one bullet to hit the target to defeat it. Americans do not have the 100% probability of killing a target with one bullet, which is why they drive with AK or make modifications to a larger caliber. So here it is.

[dmitryg]

1) Americans do not drive with AK on an ongoing basis, this is a myth
2) US Army switches to M4A1 with automatic fire
3) Marines are happy with their M16A4 and are not going to change it
4) machine gunners are pressed to the ground, and not because of the walls of the base, but in full-fledged military operations in the city
5) 100% chance of killing with one bullet - how is it? And if you keep up? What kind of bullet is this thermonuclear?
6) what kind of modifications to a larger caliber?!? Automatic rifles? Since the time of Vietnam, they have not been in service with the United States - in wide circulation
7) calibers in the Russian Federation and the USA are comparable: 5,45x39 and 5,56x45

Well and most importantly - the US Marine Corps does not miss

[Joker]

1) I didn’t say that AK is on an ongoing basis, BUT, the Americans go with AK on their own, because there is the caliber 7x62, they complain that their cartridge has less penetrating power than AK, so automatic weapons were adopted at the time FN Scar L with caliber 5.56 and H with caliber 7.62. After a year of use, the L was abandoned and only H with the 7.62 caliber was left in service.
2) I know that they are moving, or rather they have already switched, but we are arguing about the advantages of automatic fire over the cut-off of an 3 cartridge or vice versa.
3) Well, satisfied and satisfied, only according to my information they are switching to the HK 416 with automatic fire In addition, it has greater reliability compared to the M 16
4) we are talking about machine guns, if machine gunners were pressed to the ground, we would only cut off one cartridge each, automatic fire is designed to suppress the enemy.
5) And so that the bullet caliber 7.62 has a greater damaging effect. Read more about what the Taliban do with bullets, they grind them off on one side, as a result we have a bullet with a displaced center of gravity, which, if hit, can enter the leg and exit the abdomen.
6) M4 for caliber 7.62
7) Russian caliber 7.62 and 5.45, main 7.62

Everyone misses

[dmitryg]

1) Skarov the cat wept, and the Marpekhs - hundreds of thousands. So the M16 is our everything.
3) Outdated data + machine gunners switch from M249 to M27 IAR, and not from M16. Conventional riflemen remain with the M16A4. Everything suits them, for now.
4) A cut-off of 3 rounds was made not to suppress, but to hit
5) There is no 7,62 caliber. There are 7,62x39, 7,62x54R, 7,62x51, and I do not understand what is at stake
6) M4 under 7.62 - well, this is sheer nonsense google the topic
7) 7,62x ??? 54? 39? The AK-74 caliber is 5,45x39, but we are still talking about assault rifles

And stories about bullets with a displaced center of gravity are also bloody stories. In addition, they are prohibited.

God Bless Marine Corps!

[leon-iv]

1) Skarov the cat wept, and the Marpekhs - hundreds of thousands. So the M16 is our everything.
It’s a pity that they would have cut the budget well
Conventional riflemen remain with the M16A4. Everything suits them, for now.
Yeah, the current HK is much better)))
4) A cut-off of 3 rounds was made not to suppress, but to hit
And what about the AR-15 with the DTK?
M4 under 7.62 - well this is sheer nonsense; wink google the topic
honest shops in the carbine and the 12th caliber cram
God Bless Marine Corps!
I wish them to stay longer in Afghanistan.

[Joker]

1) Scars are armed with US rangers.
3) M27 IAR-ordinary machine only with a weighted barrel.
4) and you can shoot solitary in this case.
5) 7,6239 mm - you understood me right away, otherwise you don’t know what caliber we have, I’m just cutting back.
6) http://world.guns.ru/assault/usa/armalite-ar-10-r.html
http://weaponland.ru/load/shturmovaja_vintovka_avtomat_knight_s_armament_sr_47/2
5-1-0-701 please

7) Well, as if the dispute we started with ak 47 and M16 of the first modification. M16-4 last modification, ak-12 last modification ak-caliber 5.45x39, 5.56x45, 7,62x39; 7,62x51 NATO, as you can see, 7.62 is present in all AKs, this caliber is also preferable for the military, ours choose it, 5.45 for export

Stories about bullets with a displaced center of gravity are not stories, ask user oper66 he was in Chechnya. In particular, ours were also engaged there, I am not talking about everyone without exception, but they were grinding.

You better be worried about our airborne

[dmitryg]

4) Ask those who shot people. The queue has a damaging effect better and adds accuracy. Abakan stacks the first 2 bullets at one point. HK G11 - Three
5) This is the AKM caliber, but we have the AK-74
6) This is not just crafts, but imperfections. AR-10 - generally an automatic rifle - they all abandoned them
7) How do we choose 7,62 if the troops mainly use the AK-74?

Ok, not tales, but they will not give a strong advantage.

"Our" is a relative concept It's just that at one time I was engaged in the reconstruction of the USMC, they are closer to me

[Joker]

Something we moved out of the original theme
Started with AK-47 and M16-1, finished AK-12 and M16-NUMX
In general, the Hollywood began as usual, let's say each machine for its own purposes. Americans are for accuracy at the expense of reliability, ours is the other way around. But ours have done accuracy now with excellent reliability, while the United States is still marking time. I have already read for a long time that the USA is preparing the next modification of the M4, supposedly with improved reliability, but there is nothing yet.

Do you play airsoft or just reconstruction? How much is the original Marpat now?

[dmitryg]

AK vs M16A1 of course you need to compare in wars - and there M-ka crap specifically.

By the way, I still don’t understand, did they make AK-12 with balanced automation?

It is not clear why the HK416 was not accepted. There, the M4 just has to change the upper receiver - and reliability is seriously increasing. The Germans are great, but in the USA there are also enough lobbies and sawmills. And the military budget is being cut.

He played a ball game, a new marpat - thousands 4-5. But we dressed for 2001-2003 - cheaper, and we switched from the 80s, the reluctance was to change M16A2 to A4 and buy new body armor

[Joker]

In AK-12, it seems like they did soft automation, plus the barrel was replaced with a new muzzle brake compensator.
The Americans decided to support their manufacturer, although the tests of the HK 416 are impressive, here’s the video if it’s interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktkTxU

[ariy_t]

In an attack, the main thing is not the accuracy of the fire (although this is also important), but the mass of a volley ... The more bullets you shoot towards the enemy, the more you are ....

[leon-iv]

1) I didn’t say that AK is on an ongoing basis, BUT, the Americans go with AK on their own, because there is the caliber 7x62, they complain that their cartridge has less penetrating power than AK, so automatic weapons were adopted at the time FN Scar L with caliber 5.56 and H with caliber 7.62. After a year of use, the L was abandoned and only H with the 7.62 caliber was left in service.
You confuse private security companies and army units at the first zoo in armaments at the army and the ILC is not only their weapons
3) Well, satisfied and satisfied, only according to my information they are switching to the HK 416 with automatic wink fire; moreover, it has greater reliability compared to the M 16
only SOCOM goes into the army lobbyists won't let them in
And so, that a 7.62 caliber bullet has a greater damaging effect. Read more about what the Taliban do with bullets, they grind them off on one side, as a result we have a bullet with a displaced center of gravity, which, if hit, can enter the leg and exit the abdomen.
And how then do they change sights for a bullet with altered ballistics.
And the damaging effect in 5,45 and 5,56 is higher than in 7,62
Caliber of the Russian Federation 7.62 and 5.45, the main 7.62
WHAT? 5,45 basic rifle caliber

[Joker]

1) what chop? http://world.guns.ru/assault/usa/fn-mk16-mk17-scar-r.html
3) http://www.unit-club.com.ua/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=872 key phrase in the article (US Marine Corps, designated M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle)


A selection of articles about calibers
The experience of recent military conflicts involving the US Armed Forces and NATO countries has shown that existing 5.56mm caliber cartridges show insufficient effectiveness in defeating enemy personnel (similar complaints were received against the Russian 5.45mm caliber cartridge from Afghanistan and Chechnya). To solve this problem, a partial armament (mainly from the US special operations forces) was adopted by the Mk.262 cartridge with a heavier bullet of improved ballistics, however, requirements from the troops about the desirability of upgrading the caliber of machine guns and machine guns to 6.5 - 6.8mm did not cease .

if 5.45 is the main one, then why do all modifications under 7.62?
http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/kalashnikov-ak-12-r.html как пример

[dmitryg]

As far as I understand, 7,62 is in demand in all kinds of banana republics, and the cartridges for it are like dirt. Vensuela took just 7,62.

About calibers in general, it’s true - there are thoughts of switching to 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC, but it will take decades and bring someone billions, and the 5,56 lobby is on the alert. So everything is dull there.

[d.gksueyjd]

The stopping effect is higher with a larger caliber, the higher the mass of the bullet, the less deflecting forces act on it. For example, in the forest, AK47 is more effective than AK74. Ammunition 6-6,5 mm is being developed for this very reason.

[zlibeni]

and about m-16, so she always shot with continuous fire. she just had a plus cut-off for 3 rounds, which is quite good

[Joker]

Yes, Edren loaf, you read the beginning of the dispute, the conversation was about the AK-47 and the first "Vietnamese" m-16, well, it did not have an automatic mode, it was single and three.

[dmitryg]

Car racing was, see my comment below.

[Joker]

Ok, rummaged in an interent there was an automatic fire, BUT it is formulated like this continuous fire mode (bursts) I watched something, watched but didn’t find an explanation of this phrase ...

[ikrut]

"And most importantly, the US Marines don't miss."
Of course he doesn't miss. And in which case this precise fire is called "friendly" :))) It is important to get there. It doesn't matter who, right?

[German]

about the fact that the US MP does not miss ...... well, well, he smiled! and what is being put in place everywhere in order?

[dmitryg]

Because basically they make the mess messy Only shhhhhhh ...

[Passing]

Quote: dmitryg

Marines are happy with their M16A4 and are not going to change it

Well, of course, they have been trying to find a replacement since the 2000s. HK416 witness to that.

Quote: dmitryg

Well and most importantly - the US Marine Corps does not miss

One there cho, ffse polls clones Kopitan Omeriga? !!! How scary to live!

[HOUSES]

dmitryg, and what is this in the hands of the second oilman? Oh yes, sorry, not a lot off topic. We are not talking about machine guns ...
Photos from the review of the week.

[dmitryg]

It can be a reconstruction, or exercises with some Romanian gypsies (they camouflaged), so there’s no need to draw conclusions from one photograph. On it, even the unit’s stripes are not visible.

[HOUSES]

Reconstructors with authenticity are all right, God forbid, zipper in width instead of buttons. A small resolution, in the photo all the stripes are in place, and the faces are sort of like Anglo-Saxon. By the way, the third oilman also has something with a wooden butt in his hands, I don’t think it’s an AR-15.

[dmitryg]

Damn, fucked up I wanted to say that on the contrary - MB Pokemon what
And they can go to the exercises with all sorts of things. In general, a riddle.

[de_monSher]

Wow ... *)) I remember three American marines who fainted in Uzbekistan, seeing one of our soldiers "dressed" with caviar on an iron pin.

Well, a pin stuck out to himself on the obstacle course, the dude did not jump unsuccessfully, well, he pierced his calf. What makes a normal, albeit a post, a Soviet soldier? He takes his foot off the pin and continues on with the task. And it is right. And what did the American, hmyk, "marines" do ... three fainted, personally drank one of them with some water ... *))

[Raven1972]

Smiled .... Cool warriors however ....

[Ghenxnumx]

dmitryg,
1) Americans do not drive with AK on an ongoing basis, this is a myth

uh-huh, the same "myth" as this photo "NATO fighters at the cleanup in Iraq"

[dmitryg]

I already wrote somewhere on this subject - taking a PCA for a while and releasing a disk on a door or a wall is one thing, and dodging it for days, including at the base, is another matter. Where to get cartridges? Yes, and their own slap from Apache. And once again they slap their own, at the sound of someone else's shot. But of course you did not think about this.

Try to turn on the brain, and lay out then the video of a continuous weekly shooting of an American soldier who is hanging around with Iraqi junk. One / two / three different photos - not interesting.

[Alex]

Quote: dmitryg

Well and most importantly - the US Marine Corps does not miss

By peaceful and unarmed people. And from airplanes, peaceful cities are bombing very successfully.

[zlibeni]

jda joker. where do you get so many cartridges to let fans out?))))))))))))))))) and if I really understood something in arms I knew that 5,56 caliber is much more dangerous 7,62, 5,45 because the bullet is unstable and begins to tumble in the tissues. This also applies to 5,45. So to fill someone with one bullet is much more likely if you shoot from 5,56 or XNUMX caliber.
and oh yes with automatic fire you will hit the target faster)))))))))))))) Have you ever held an automatic machine, or did you just shoot automatic fire at the clave?

[Joker]

Well, let's not spoil the argument with your unreasonable remarks, okay? If you want to argue, bring a kostrukt into the dispute and do not try to cheat me. A fan in your mind 30 shots? For me it's 5-10 the 5.56 caliber is so dangerous that it cannot penetrate a wall, it is so dangerous that the Americans want to change the caliber, it is so dangerous that it was adopted because the 7.62 is weaker in terms of slaughter, resulting in lower recoil on U.S. automatic rifles, and this is the most important thing for them. I kept the machine gun more than once, I shot at the army on the most I can not. And yes, imagine automatic fire easier to hit a moving target, and it was about her that I talked. You want to argue, give arguments as it does dmitryg. You do not want? Please do not spoil our dispute. Frets?

[zlibeni]

and the barrel doesn’t try to run somewhere with automatic fire? Something I’m doubt is that you will be able to correct the fire in such conditions. The cut-off for this is done so as not to waste ammunition. Since the shooter knows what he’s doing. And actually the most effective it is a single runaway fire on a moving target

[Tyumen]

Quote: zlibeni

to fill up someone with one bullet is much more likely if you shoot from 5,45

Tell it somewhere else. We had a case
took huckster. The man in the car (as it turned out, the left one) got
three bullets with AKSU, in the arm, leg, and side. After parsing and dressing
he went home himself.

[zlibeni]

in my opinion I have stated in sufficient form why these small calibers are more dangerous. The bullet is tumbling and tearing tissue and the outlet is huge. But 7,62 is an accurate opening, both the outlet and the inlet.
yes, the axu’s caliber 5,45 only if he went home himself, he received wounds on a tangent and did not pose any threat to life.

[scutum]

and not because of the displaced center of gravity, does the bullet change its trajectory after hitting the tissue?

[leon-iv]

No, this is a feature of the bullet.
Read the book infantry weapons there everything is taken apart

[zlibeni]

these calibers 5.56 and 5.45 are mistakenly called by many bullets with a displaced center of gravity.
I honestly have not heard about this. I know the tracing, armor-piercing, incendiary and ordinary.
here’s to yourself, and think, if the center of gravity would be displaced when the bullet rotated in flight, what would happen to it? correctly, it would deviate from the trajectory. that is, it wouldn’t get anywhere.
but I’ve heard of such ones where, for example, the back is heavier than the front and therefore you get an offset when you come across an obstacle and the back tries to overtake the front. And this, in my opinion, is implemented in these small calibers. I could be wrong because I am not developing ammunition

[German]

The surgeon, yes .. the bullet is a fool .. but the bayonet-bayonet well done!

[German]

a bullet 5 * 45 tumbles not because of some mythical "shifted center of gravity", but due to the fact that because of the small (compared to 7,62) weight it is strongly influenced by various external factors: (wind, branch, and etc.)

[leon-iv]

cheat? branch? The wind even affects 152mm.

[Passing]

5,45 bullet somersaults precisely because shifted back center of gravity. However, this center is shifted backward by any pointed bullet, pure geometry. It's just that at 7,62 this shift is not so pronounced, plus there is a much larger stabilizing gyroscopic moment, so it is not so prone to somersaults.

[HOUSES]

We made key chains from cartridges 5,45. So in the tracer pool the core hangs. In the early 80s there were only three PS cartridges, PS tracer and idle, I do not know how now.

[AlexxNik]

yes, they have such a chip, the bullet is thin and long, not only do they fly at the limit of stability, but when it gets into the fabric, the core shifts forward due to the technological cavity in the bullet nose and it receives an impulse to somersault, and the amer’s and falling apart in the body

[Tyumen]

Quote: zlibeni

received wounds on a tangent and did not pose any threat to life.

A pointless conversation is obtained.
Why didn’t somersault? Three holes right through.
Or do you have to get into the heart?

[Arc76]

A rare case. Well, in combat conditions, the injured person is no longer a fighter. Well, they would have punctured, but three holes, blood loss, a maximum of 50 minutes.

[wasjasibirjac]

Quote: Tyumen 35

Tell it somewhere else. We had a case
took huckster. The man in the car (as it turned out, the left one) got
three bullets with AKSU, in the arm, leg, and side. After parsing and dressing
he went home himself.

and from this place in more detail - the left man with 3 gunshots - and the doctor let him go home? and didn’t write a message to the nearest air traffic control department? tell me how much such kindness cost. after such a prosecutor’s office, any fighter with bones will be eaten and he will eat the forest for several years

[Ghenxnumx]

in part, the case was: drunk, ensign shmalnul in lieutenant.
the result - the bullet entered the right shoulder - came out through the left shoulder blade, the entire chest into the stuffing.

[Eugene]

I agree with you about 5.56. It is more dangerous in terms of damage to an enemy that is not protected by armor, but the armored action (if the enemy is in bronics) is worse than that of 7.62x39, but the question is where did the Yankees find the enemy in armor in Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Alexei]

Quote: zlibeni

if I really understood something in weapons, I knew that the 5,56 caliber is much more dangerous than the 7,62

I didn’t read the dumbest stupidity, I don’t remember anything.

Quote: zlibeni

oh yes with automatic fire you will hit the target faster)))))))))))))) Have you ever held an automatic machine, or did you just shoot automatic fire at the clave?

"Fan" for retreat is good when aiming is inconvenient, well suited for suppression fire. And if you shoot a dense bunch of people, also armed. It is more expedient to release a long line, which will mow down everyone, than short ones (after the first one, they will overwhelm you). Don't make yourself an expert. Everything is relative and unstable, plus an automaton that can do both.

[Eugene]

Quote: Alexej

I didn’t read the dumbest stupidity, I don’t remember anything.

For the "smart guy" http://topwar.ru/11500-modeli-raneniya-pulyami.html
There, the difference between wound channels 7.62 and 5.56 is well written, and most importantly drawn.

[Alexei]

You, too, are "smart" anywhere. The bullet must still hit the body. And the caliber 7.62 rushes to the target, breaking through foliage, branches, even tree trunks, while not really changing the trajectory. The same cannot be said about 5.56.

[Eugene]

Let's figure it out:

1) specialists in Chechnya mainly used the old cartridges by 5.45, as you know, they did not differ in lethal force and stability in flight, and they sometimes warped shells.
2) a modern cartridge, for example armor-piercing 7N24 - a serious product:

http://zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/publ...ationId=2769836
11. ORDERING INFORMATION
11.1. Name and quantity of goods: 5,45 mm cartridge with an armor-piercing core (index 7H24) in the amount of 3 pcs.
11.2. Technical task
11.2.1. Requirements for the quality of the goods: The delivered goods must be new goods (goods that were not in use, did not undergo repairs, including restoration, replacement of components, restoration of consumer properties), manufactured no earlier than 2012. The delivered goods must correspond to the products that are in service with the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation.
11.2.2. Requirements for the technical characteristics of the goods, functional characteristics (consumer properties) of the goods, sizes of the goods:
Caliber, mm - 5.45.
Sleeve of a bottle form with a protruding flange, steel, varnished. Three-element bullet:
- bimetallic shell:
- carbide core:
- a lead shirt. Bullet weight, g - 3.93-4.27. The length of the bullet, mm - 22.98-23,5. Capsule of the central battle. Spherical varnish powder. Cartridge length, mm - 56.2-57,0. Cartridge weight, g - 10.7-11,7
The average speed of a bullet. V25 sr .. m / s - 820-840.
Maximum pressure of powder gases. P max. avg. <294.2 MPa (3000 kgf / cm2). Average accuracy of fire R 5 cm at a distance of 100 m <3.2.
The penetrative effect of bullets on an armored sheet of mark 2P with a thickness of 5 mm at a distance of 350 m is not less than 80% penetration.

3) amers fight in Iraq and Afghanistan where there is no one in bronikov and among branches and grass, their eerie bullet is better there.
5) 7.62 has less tenacity than 5.45.
6) the amount of ammunition when wearing 5.45 increases significantly;
4) The impact of branches and grass is greatly exaggerated for more or less modern ammunition, I’ve specifically searched for a link to the tests of shooting through the branches and sheaves of grass at targets. But I did not find it unfortunately.
There something for 5.45 - 17% deviated, for 7.62 - 11%.

[Eugene]

And what kind of myth is it about piercing a tree with Kalash!? How thick? What tree? What bullet? From what distance?

[zlibeni]

hear the fan, you can do it in a computer shooter. you will press them to the ground, but this will take up all the ammunition for a while. and in the end you will crash. ))))))))))))
I’m not an expert, I just understand a little bit because I got an education at a military school

[pinachet]

if 7.62 was bad it would not have been massively used by our specialists in the Caucasus. It’s not a "fan of bullets", but the fact that the 7.62 bullet flies through the green paint without straying off course and hits the brickwork for flight, and this is more important!

[zlibeni]

no one says that 7.62 is bad. just depending on the caliber you lose somewhere and win somewhere. 5,56 or 5,45 have the advantage that with equal weight they can take more than 7,62.

[loc.bejenari]

he heroically threw everyone into counter-strike

[Arc76]

How many rounds you can put out with a fan. The myth about the love of us army to ak has no foundation. As American soldiers write in their memoirs, the Kalashnikov assault rifle was actually used during deep search and reconnaissance operations, but not because of some unique qualities of the Soviet assault rifle, but because the wearable ammunition of the group could be significantly reduced, since Vietnam was stuffed with Kalashnikov assault rifles .

[leon-iv]

No, this is a rarity because the group will not take other people's ammunition. Tk is not a global war, but an imposing one, and the Taliban do not have access to normal cartridges.

[Arc76]

It was written about Vietnam.

[leon-iv]

clearly about that time I agree about modern wars no.

[Eugene]

it was there that there were reports that the early versions of the M-16, the soldiers threw out and took Kalash. then it became better with reliability, and ours all about that ancient version of the Gutar.

[Joker]

Quote: arc76

Arc76

- there is such an expression, if we are telling the truth, then let's say the whole truth, namely. The commanders of the American troops forbade the use of Kalashnikov assault rifles for their soldiers, since their characteristic screech in the rear of their troops, for example, could cause panic.

[Mesniy]

Well, if only you would shoot, you would know that in the queue after the second cartridge, everyone else is in "milk" regardless of the shooter's qualifications, and if I quote - well, if you shoot from outside the base walls, as the Americans do, then it really is it doesn't matter - there are a lot of cartridges on the base, it is necessary - the turntables will give you a lift. But if you posed with these cartridges in the mountains, when you have to decide what to take - toli a flask of water or a couple of stores - you wouldn't drive such crap. ...

[German]

just about the cutoff in 3 rounds on the M16A4-go to the GanManNews website and read what Amer thinks about this very cut-off. Marines who served 20 years (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.)

[Alex]

Quote: Joker

I watched a program recently on this topic, ours admitted that the AK was created on the basis of many different types of small arms of the time.

Well, first of all, "ours" on TV now admit everything, the only question is the amount of the fee. And secondly, the use of world experience is not plagiarism, it is quite acceptable development of science and technology. Otherwise, the wheel was still invented and would be proud of it.

[Vova Sapunenko]

Yes, the fact of the matter is that in a real battle the shooter wins who correctly pulls the trigger, or rather, shoot singles especially at the enemy's target !!! And to fool the people, they always showed films on the themes of the Second World War -1941-45 or on the theme of the OKWA of the 40th CA 1980-89, where all the warriors are fighters, they shoot from automatic weapons in bursts, like pouring rain with a hail of ice from the sky to The earth. Any automatic weapon, when fired in bursts and for a long time, will quickly lose its destructive qualities, and may even jam from barrel overheating. In any case, with single shots, the defeat of the enemy will be more effective, taking into account the economy of ammunition, when there is a limit of ammunition or the problem of its delivery to fighters in conditions of real danger in battle, behind enemy lines, on the front line, swampy, desert, forest, mountain, river, sea conditions.

[rexby63]

The author is a plus and a huge one. For fans of "fried" facts, advice - disassemble once the AK-47 and Stg.44 with your own hands

[Vova Sapunenko]

Yes, AK * (conditionally1947 of the Zaitsev design), or rather AK-49 and subsequent modifications of the AKM or AK-74, have no relation to the German Sturmgever-43,44,45 models !!! But to the sniper semiautomatic devices SVT-38 * (Tokareva) or SVD 40 * (Dekhtyareva), SKS-44 * (Simonova), Sudaev's assault rifle -1944goda, Tula Bulkina assault rifle -1946goda, Korobov assault rifle -1946, Dementieva -1946 , the Automatic Carabiner system of 1947-49 * (designs by Zaitsev, Sokolov, Red from Kovrov) have !!! Helped with technical drawings of all Soviet samples of semi-automatic and automatic weapons, naturally underground, the test tester of the artillery range near the village of Shchurovo, Kolomensky district, Moscow region, Major Vasily Lyuty, who sent the moron of an illiterate sergeant - deserter of the Red Army tank troops, Mikhtey Kalashnikov to the city of Kovashnikov providing him with a legend, they say that the Kalashnikov’s nugget is a weaponry and he should be sent to the city of Kovrov to create the first AK. Lyutaev’s samples, he even got the USSR Ministry of Defense, recommender The letter for Kalashnikov, where the authorities from the Kremlin, urges Kovrosk experts to help create an assault rifle, supposedly Kalashnikov. Moreover, all the signatures on the weapons drawings in Kovrov, which Alexander Alekseevich Zaitsev, Alexey Sokolov, Vasily Ryzhiy, drew and made calculations, only one Kalashnikov set. In the memoirs of Alexander Alekseevich Zaitsev, at the end of the 80s, there is a very sensational admission about the rogue Mikhail Kalashnikov, namely, that Kalashnikov never knew how to draw weapon blueprints, could not read them, make calculations in designing weapons, in a word, was distant from weapons business. Yes, Major Vasily Lyuty, was a competent gunsmith, therefore, he copied the drawings of SVT-38 * (Tokarev) SVD-40 * (Dekhtyareva), SKS-45 * (Simonov), Bulkin, Dementiev, Korobov, but persuaded him to put a sign on Komsomol * (son-in-law of the general and commandant of the Test Art Test Site in Schyurovo, Kolomensky District, Moscow Region), Misha Timofeevich Kalashnikov, realizing the risk of theft by plagiarism of other people's inventions !!! A little later, when the Ministry of State Security of the USSR, they suspected the whole scam of Major Vasily Lyutoy, namely, they split the "party organizer" Misha Kalashnikov in the inability to be able to draw weapons drawings and who exactly slipped them to him, which were copies of the drawings of the secret Sudaev Bulkin, Dementyev, Korobov, Tokarev , Degtyareva? Kalashnikov, being an informer of the Ministry of State Security of the USSR, without any problems visited Major Vasily Lyutoy, that it was he who designed it for this scam with the signature of the weapon drawings in Kovrov, where he had to redo them all to mind, to a group of specialists - gunsmiths Zaitsev, Sokolov, Ryzhiy and other carpet specialists . PS. Cinematographers may be interested in this pseudo-legend about Kalashnikov, preferably Andrei Konchalovsky, who would create a television series or full-length movie, where they will show the truth about Major Vasily Lyuty, Alexander Zaitsev, Vasily Sokolov, Vasily Ryzhiy, swindler-deserter RKKA and son-in-law - * (the appropriator of all the achievements of Kovrov specialists - gunsmiths). It's time for ordinary Russians to know the truth about the creation.

[Ilya Klementyev]

You have to go learn Russian and grammar.

[r.anoshkin]

Almost all production cars have one and the same principle and the same device. However, some drive well and for a long time, others are the other way around. The same can be said about many other mechanisms and weapons, including. Genius is often not that invent something fundamentally new and innovative, but in that, based on the well-known and long-used, to create something that for often unknown reasons to the author will work better than anything else like that. It’s a bit long, but the idea is too long. In any case Kalash Ikov-nugget and not recognize his genius can only be blunt.

[Vova Sapunenko]

The German StG-43,44 * (manufactories Mauser and Walter) are more similar to the development of the automatic machine * (conditionally AKadashnikov 1946) of Major Vasily Lyuty. It was Vasya Lyuty, who copied all the mechanisms on the AK -46, from German models. During testing, this modification turned out to be unsuitable for dimensions, weight, reliability of operation, disassembly-assembly. By the time in 1946, the brilliant gunsmith from Leningrad, Alexei Sudaev, who created the AS-44, having converted the SVT-38 into a smaller copy, died the ability to fire automatically with intermediate cartridges of 7,62x41 mm., Won the competition in April 1946, Bulkin. From this moment on, Major Vasily Lyuty, proceeded to theft - plagiarism, designs of Sudaev -44, Bulkina -46, Dementyev, Korobov. Signatures on copies of the drawings were made by Kalashnikov, who later sold the USSR Ministry of State Security, Major Vasily Lyuty, who had been in the Gulag for 10 years. Kalashnikov appropriated all the laurels of inventions of ingenious Soviet inventors and wiped his dirty soles of shoes on them. Any swindler, when he successfully entered the criminal role, flattering the people, until his death, will lie, like Satan the villain.

[Ilya Klementyev]

Vova Sapunenko Haaa this vyser dreamed you?

[tank64rus]

My father, as a "master of fire contacts", was a member of the commission for the acceptance of the AK into service. He told me about how the tests were carried out forty years ago. I can say that Kalashnikov listened to all the claims that he made during the tests very carefully and entered On the issue of the bayonet, the commission members had the greatest discrepancy, the old generals stood for the bayonet, the young front-line officers for the knife. Initially, M.T. Kalashnikov said that if you equip the machine gun with a bayonet, you will need a bipod. But this was categorically rejected . He promised to resolve this issue and, as you can see, decided. And about Hugo Schmeisser, this is one of the stuffing of information war with our people.

[dmitryg]

Throw in the same thing? Names, appearances? Or, again, anonymized world Zionism?

[rexby63]

Please, one of the names is dmitryg

[dmitryg]

Where did I say that AK is licked from Stg?
If you take a throw, do it beautifully.

I'll go get the matzo.

[German]

dmitryg (y) --- is matte kosher?

[dmitryg]

So koshegnaya-pgekoshegnaya! And halal as well. Yummy! I'm going to finish writing "World Capture for Dummies". After all, I'm the secretary of the World Backstage.

[rexby63]

Where is it that I mentioned that AK is licked with Stg

And you are not blamed for this.

... stuffing information warfare

And it is possible to suspect that you are participating in an information war, potentially on the side of a likely adversary.

[dmitryg]

Wow, yes I, it turns out, is an information warrior! Not expected! Will they give me the order?!? And Parabellum?! ???!

Quote: rexby63

potentially on the side of the probable

You should write books
Well, even if you are too late. Then what? For example, I suspect that elves steal milk from my refrigerator at night. So what?

[rexby63]

No, you can’t joke. Better write about weapons, you know it and read interesting

[zlibeni]

dmitrig I am also a warrior of the information war in their opinion)))))))))))))))) it’s good that they also pay for it))))))))))) so do not worry that they suspect )))))))))))))))

[dmitryg]

As they put it artistically about us - "seroponniki"
Yes, I’m just gathering my posts here, maybe from the Sions of Zion.

[Vova Sapunenko]

Hugo Schmeisser didn’t invent anything at all, since he was far from modeling and creating automatic weapons or any kind of weapon. Hugo was simply the heir to a private manufactory in the production of MP-38_ MP-40, StG-43, StG-44, StG-45. Moreover, these modifications of German weapons were invented by completely different Germans. But the first German pistol was the MP-18 and MP-28 machine gun, Schmeiser invented the father of Hugo Schmeiser, taking plagiarism as an American pistol-machine gun Thompson, partly and samples of the designs of Czech weapons, some of which were plagiarized from the Russian Fedorov assault rifle.

[Lustrator]

Quote: Joker

the then m-16 was even worse in reliability than its current modifications

Clear business: the aim of modernization was just to increase the reliability of the rifle.

Quote: Joker

and besides, she had only a firing mode of 3 rounds and one at a time, she had no automatic fire.

Where does this information come from? All assault rifles must have the ability to conduct automatic fire, otherwise the meaning in their development is lost.

[dmitryg]

Should not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_variants to help.

The first M16 (XM16E1, M16, M16A1) HAD auto-fire mode, learn the materiel. A cut-off of 3 rounds appeared in the M16A2 along with a heavier barrel and new sights, which gave a significant increase in the accuracy of fire, compared with the same AKM.

[Vova Sapunenko]

Generals of the US ARMY have long understood that single fire is more effective than bursts. Queues are used only when there are a lot of enemy soldiers in front of the nose. The soldier must always remember that each cartridge is his protection for survival and they must be used precisely on the target in the enemy's body, and not fired into an empty one to intimidate or give out their concealment positions from mortar fire, much worse from the system of solid fire "grad".

[valeroid]

Here in the weapon you do not need to understand much to understand. And see even!
What designs are completely different.
And OUR BEAUTIFUL!

[Vova Sapunenko]

Kalash is an advanced copy of Sudaev -44, Bulkin -46, Dementiev -46, Korobov -46, Simonov SKS -45 assault rifles. A true AK -46, was actually a copy of the German StG-43; 44. Moreover, Kalashnikov never knew how to draw weapons drawings and read them. Major Vasily Lyuty did everything. Everyone remembers how curious citizens and schoolchildren in the USSR were zombified, saying that Kalashnikov came up with the first Soviet machine gun in 1943 and was sent from the hospital, after being wounded, to weapons specialists in the city of Tashkent. In fact, Kalashnikov decided to desert from the ranks of the Red Army, that would never return to the heat of the Second World War. In general, all wounded soldiers and officers who were treated in hospitals were put on leave home. Kalashnikov didn’t go home to Altai Krai, and went to Tashkent to the old specialist in weapon blueprints Zhukovsky, who developed the weapon drawings, in fact, a copy of the American Thompson submachine gun, but chambered for 7,62x25 TT, of course, using the Kalashnikov block that he put on the drawings have their initials with signatures as the author of the invention. In those days, few people risked their lives to displease the authorities of the CPSU (b), and even more so the NKVD and the Red Army, taking into account the People's Commissar of the NKVD Beria and the General Sec. Stalin. This is how Kalashnikov, a con man, felt how he could desert from the army, stay alive and not see death on the front line, where he miraculously remained alive in 1941. This, allegedly, the first AK-41, was riveted in the workshop of a railway repair plant, which was then located on the territory of the north-eastern part of the Autonomous Okrug of Kyrgyzstan of the RSFSR * (today's Kazakhstan, the former Kazakh SSR since 1954). It is clear that Kalashnikov was registered for the competition for testing new types of secret weapons at the Ministry of Defense of the USSR, under the watchful eye of the NKGB of the USSR and personally the People's Commissar of Lawrence Beria. For testing, this modification of the Thompson submachine gun chambered for 7,62z25 TT was too promising a weapon, but it was a copy of Thomson from the United States, and they had long supplied Thompson * (Tom Gum) to the USSR via Land Leasing. And under the cartridges of 7,62x25 TT, the releases of PPSh -40 and PPS-43 have already been adjusted. But Kalashnikov, when he looked at the test site, the general, the post held by the chief, made Misha a Komsomol and son-in-law, married Kalashnikov to his daughter. There Kalashnikov made friends with Captain Vasily Lyuty and other weapons testers. In the same place, from April 1946, from April of the month, tests of the Sudaev, Bulkin, Dementiev, Korobov * submachine guns * (the other 27 inventors) began, Bulkin won the first competition, and Sudaev died in the winter of 1946, but his drawings were already submitted with the application for the test competition from samples of the Leningrad submachine guns AS-44, in the office of this ArtPolygon in the village of Shchurov, Kolomensky district, Moscow region, where he seized the moment to copy secretly by captain Vasily Lyut, having drawn up all the drawings with the false name of the inventions, signatures, allegedly, the Komsomol Kalashnikov in M Ministries of Defense of the USSR, which used to direct Kalashnikov in the city of Kovrov.

[Landwarrior]

Well, how much can one procrastinate the same thing? It seems that everything is already a hundred times laid out on shelves, chewed and put in your mouth, no, anyway there are those who with foam at the mouth will prove ...
The fact that the 46th resembles a storm trooper only says that this option was also considered, but refused. By the way, about the fact that the AK-46 was made THREE pieces (total) somehow forget ... And then, how then to explain this:

[Eugene]

Quote: Landwarrior

By the way, about the fact that the AK-46 was made THREE pieces (total) somehow forget ... And then, how then to explain this:

An interesting option, the fact that there were 3 samples only suggests that all options were considered, but we’ll choose the timothy’s option, plus we took something from competitors. Someone will say that this is bad, but I think a soldier in the trench deep in ... who and what stole in the design of his machine to improve performance.

[Landwarrior]

Quote: Eugene

says that all options were considered

Yes, I also wanted to write this, but in a hurry and missed.

[HOUSES]

This is Thompson's PP chambered for 7,62 TT. And what? It’s not even what, considering what was done on the knee. If I am not mistaken, this is the year of 1942? Anyway, it’s better than the original, and much more technologically advanced.

[Landwarrior]

This is actually a 42-year-old Kalashnikov submachine gun
http://weaponland.ru/publ/pistolet_pulemet_sistemy_kalashnikova_1942_goda/7-1-0-
773

[Viktor123]

If I'm not mistaken, this is an experimental version of the Kalashnikov submachine gun (somewhere around 1943)

[Landwarrior]

Yes, only the 42nd ... If you don’t lie

[wasjasibirjac]

and what to explain - Kalashnikov M.T. made a submachine gun under 7,62 * 25 with a screw-based deceleration mechanism, the rate of fire was about 450 rounds per minute. as a souvenir - in 44 year. They refused to take into service, because its performance characteristics were close to PPS-43, which was subsequently recognized as the best PP of WWII

[Alien]

Each weapon has its pros and cons, taste and color. And in the trailer if you modify 44 and he would serve.

[Joker]

And he serves, his closest relative in the arsenal of piHdostan, M-16.

[Puskarinkis]

rather, this is the German G3 ... and other HK products. The truth has changed the principle of locking the shutter (on rollers).

[Arc76]

This topic was discussed in detail in the journal Kalashnikov for 2009. The author went to the artillery museum in St. Petersburg and in real life compared stg44 with AK47. The principle of action is really different. But he did not rule out the version about using the experience of Hugo Schmeiser in AK47 design. The only question for Kalashnikov is the lack of specialized education, without which it is very difficult to carry out complex calculations.

[Viktor123]

Kalashnikov worked on the project of the machine more than one. So what about specialized education - not at the address. And even more so, Kalashnikov was self-taught. He developed and assembled his first submachine gun model in locomotive workshops.

[Zynaps]

Quote: arc76

The only question for Kalashnikov is the lack of specialized education, without which it is very difficult to carry out complex calculations.

actually, if you know the biography of the MTK, then it has interesting and consistent details. for example, that before and during the war, Kalashnikov repeatedly proved himself as an inventor and rationalizer. and while working in Kovrov on fine-tuning the future AK, he was very much helped by an experienced gunsmith Zaitsev. A complete list of Designers Degtyarev Design Bureau, who participated in the development of AK is in the book Milchev.

Hugo Schmeiser was at the same time in Izhevsk. they tried to attract him to work as a technologist. but along the way and very quickly it became clear (there is a certificate in the Izhmash museum) that Hugo, taken separately for his ass, was nothing special - there was no special education, self-taught, was taken out without the firms of Erm and Henel (which brought to mind many of his ideas). therefore, Hugo was left alone.

shmayserodrochery forget (or do not know stupidly) that for Soviet gunsmiths the appearance of the StG-44 was not a revelation or shock. for back in 1942, during the battles in the Demyansk cauldron, an experienced German automatic carbine of the Henel MKb.42 (H) company - the prototype of the "Sturmgever", fell into the hands of the Red Army. there would be a hunt - they copied and mastered its production by 44. But no, they waited, they additionally studied the American rifle "guarantor" (MTK personally admitted that it was the "guarantor" that influenced his weapon), used the trigger of the Czech Holek, borrowed from Browning a lever - a safety catch - a fire translator. and a lot of differences from the "Sturmgever", like another disassembly and barrel locking scheme.

if that was what our designers were interested in, it was new metal processing technologies, new alloys, and then composites that became fashionable — the Germans used bakelite and other plastics to decorate their weapons.

[Mikhado]

re-constipation in AK-47 and skew in STG-4

Neighing in a voice. When the literacy of articles on this site will reach at least an acceptable level ????

[patriot2]

The article is indisputable +.
AK-47 and STG-44 are different in design, the external resemblance is not a fact that there is reason to blame our weapons master for plagiarism.
Or does someone want the old man to read this debate and quickly leave for another world?
Then it's just - mean.

[Mikhado]

Don’t worry about the old man - he has such things as this debate, which, for the first FIRST year, have been conducted, by the way, for a long time on the drum. He will go into another world for completely prosaic reasons - he is a great age, a dybog, so that, as late as possible, it's nice that such a legend man is still with us.

And these disputes about German roots have already really bothered, all from a series about British scientists. Another question is whether this conservatism with "eternal ak" in the army is so good at the present stage, for how many years no alternative will be accepted. Let the proven Kalash remain a weapon in the extreme case of general mobilization, if this can happen at all in our realities, but for the pros, something better has long been needed with the same reliability, albeit more expensive.

[German]

I think that Mikhail Timofeevich, by virtue of his natural mind and talent, simply doesn’t read the dirt that they try to pour HIS from time to time! And if he did, he didn’t pay attention!

[Chicot 1]

Asserting that the AK-47 was "copied" from the StG44 can only be an amateur (to say the least) who does not know a damn about small arms ... IMHO

In addition, as far as I know (if I’m wrong, correct) Mikhail Timofeevich did not live in Izhevsk during the development of his machine gun. He moved there only when it was decided to deploy the production of his machine gun there ...
Further, as far as I know, Hugo Schmasser was not engaged in design work in the USSR, but was a consultant on technological issues, or, more simply, a "technological advisor" ...

Naturally, the German machine was carefully studied by Soviet designers, including Kalashnikov. But this is a normal global practice ...
So whatever you say, the common thing between AK-47 and StG44 is only belonging to one class of small arms, and as a result of this (but not vice versa !!!) a similar appearance. And that’s all however ...

[Chicot 1]

And dem a little in

[Landwarrior]

Quote: Chicot 1

And dem a little in

Life is good when there are PCA
And there are no problems when there is AKM!

[Cynic]

Quote: Chicot 1

can only amateurish

And the main thing to say!
How to bask: A spoon was found, but the sediment remained.

[Chicot 1]

I always try to call things and objects by their proper names ... If, of course, the established rules allow this to be done ...

So, in my opinion, "dilettantism" is still to put it mildly ... And about the sediment ... All these "experts" have already got the right word, that with foam at the mouth they prove the fact of Kolashnikov copying StG44 or Hugo Schmeisser's involvement in the creation of AK -47 ...

[HOUSES]

Yes, you could stupidly tear, as the Chinese are doing now, and put into service. Sense of inventing what is invented? But where is Sturm Gewehr now and where is AK. For any, it was a design bureau led by M.T. Kalashnikov, and who was part of this design bureau by and large is not important.

[Joker]

Due to its simplicity, the production cost of this machine is low, which determines such production volumes.

- the simplicity of the final sample does not mean the simplicity of its production, usually even the opposite. By the way, the Kalashnikov assault rifle of the 1947 model (AK-47 weapons do not exist, there are AK, AKM, AK-74, Ak-74M) was complicated and expensive to manufacture. The receiver, for example, was made by milling from a single piece. And only as a result of the painstaking work of gunsmiths was this brilliant simplicity born.

[PSih2097]

In that year (2011), there was already a similar article where they laid out on the shelves that the assault rifle and AK are different barrels, the same M16 has more in common with the German assault rifle than the AK ...

[Odinplys]

Undoubtedly .. one of the best machines in the World ...

[cvx]

As if someone did not want this, but the chronology of events and the logic of reasoning do not confirm the version of copying by Kalashnikov StG43-44. The closest prototype AK 46, 47 is an automatic carbine developed by the same Mikhail Timofeevich, 45 and 44 years old. If you look at them, the resemblance to the future assault rifle immediately catches the eye, especially with a carbine of the sample of 45 years. Theoretically, Kalashnikov could copy the German car from the end of 1943, when Soviet designers had the opportunity to get acquainted with the trophy model. However, as was already correctly noted, the difference in the design of machine guns is significant, and it would also be irrational to copy elements of an assault rifle onto a sample of an automatic carbine, so that later they can be transferred to the machine gun. Too tricky. As for the help of Hugo Schmeisser, he arrived in Izhevsk in October 1946, two years before the appearance of Kalashnikov and therefore could not participate in the development and did not really want to. Around the same time, it became possible to get acquainted with the original documentation for the German rifle and copy it completely. However, this did not happen and the AK-47, which had already been finalized and the required tests, was adopted.

[Viktor123]

Plus you, cvx! But the local lad will not understand you! Offended! How so! such a genius of small arms as Hugo Schmeiser does not recognize! But in the USSR, he did not prove himself! He was a mediocre person. and received a characteristic (almost parasite) from Soviet and German experts.

[Gurza]

Today is the day of the gunslinger, so many comments! I haven’t seen this for a long time!

[phantom359]

There can be no question of any plagiarism. Completely different products. The fact that Kalashnikov used developments in small arms is what all manufacturers do. Nobody accuses Uziel Gala of plagiarism, although he created his Uzi after the Czech Scorpio. It is clear for Galil, no one hid it. And also, pay attention to the incomplete disassembly of the M16. The similarity with the Schmeisser disassembly is clearly visible. But for some reason the "researchers" do not pay attention to this.)))

[schonia06rus]

guys, and I'm the only one who knows what AK was invented in Kovrov)

[sergeant]

Not the only one :)
This is a serious blunder in the article. Kalashnikov really developed the design of the machine in Kovrov, where no Hugo Schmeisser had ever been.

[Vova Sapunenko]

Alexander Alekseevich Zaitsev created AK, and Kalashnikov put only signatures on the drawings, as ordered by the bodies of the Ministry of State Security of the USSR. At the end of his life, Zaitsev wrote in his memoirs that the party organizer Kalashnikov never knew how to draw and read weapons drawings !!!

[bazilio]

As always, the comments made me happy. We started for health ... as they say. From the AK-47 and STG, they smoothly went to the M-16 and the US Marines. Well, they remembered about the Westerners and the world behind the scenes. In general, I agree with the author - STG and AK-47 are different things. There are similarities, but they cannot be avoided. At the same time, AK turned out to be a more successful model - less weight, more reliable design, simplicity and manufacturability and, as a result, low cost. AK is a legend, a symbol. The main thing is not to stand still and come up with something new and more perfect.

[Strashila]

And upon deep examination we will run into the great-grandfather of automatic machines ... Fedorov's automatic machine

[Cynic]

Quote: Strashila

we will stop at the great-grandfather of automatic machines ... Fedorov's automatic machine

Undeservedly forgotten!

[Svist]

There will always be, I don’t even know what to call it, an envious person, a spiteful critic or something else to call it, who needs to denigrate something. In any area. Some argue that "Quiet Don" was not written by Sholokhov, others that the AK was not Kalashnikov, others that the "March of the Aviators" was copied from the Germans, etc.
They proved the opposite a hundred times, but to the point! How about peas on the wall ... Now let them prove something ...

[Cynic]

Quote: Svist

There is always, I don’t even know what to call it, an envious person, a spiteful critic or something else to call it

It was recalled: There lived a literary critic whose life he killed proving that the Iliad was not written by Homer, but by a completely different person, but also Homer!

[felixis69]

Perhaps I am such an envious person! ... Just answer me intelligibly to the questions! How did it happen that a talented Kalashnikov with a 7-year education suddenly designed an immortal machine gun, and then for more than 60 years has not designed ANYTHING fundamentally new at all? All further "breakthrough" developments were created in the Tula Design Bureau? What did Schmeiser do in Izhevsk for several years together with his design bureau? ... Picked your nose? A world-renowned designer who had developments in various directions almost every year .. apparently he sat and watched Kalashnikov develop a machine gun !? And why is the departure of the Germans to their homeland in time correlated with the creation of the AK-47? And why was Schmeiser in Izhevsk at all, and not some other designer? .... And why in Izhevsk they talk about AK in opposition to the official version?

[Viktor123]

What answers do you want to get? How did the son of a dispossessed middle peasant become a world-famous Designer? Carefully read his biography. One machine? You're wrong! What about a RPK light machine gun? It's not just to make the barrel longer! What about a PC? By the way, according to world experts, the PC is among the top three machine guns. Time and combat use of these samples confirmed their quality. Do not forget about the 5,45 series. This is not easy for you to reassign to a different caliber and shorten the barrel with a file. here are the calculations. And where did you get the idea that Schmeiser with all his design bureaus was exported to the USSR? And Kalashnikov worked in Kovrov. And Schmeiser was in Izhevsk, picking a finger in his nose.

[wasjasibirjac]

there is a Kalashnikov hall in the museum, which isn’t there, even developed a pistol. it didn’t go beyond prototypes

[uizik]

More reliable AK is not what! There was AKMS, so you have to be able to shoot from it and you need more training-shooting. Then there will not be any problems!

[pinachet]

for those who think that AK was done with STG44, then for them I always have one question .. why "STG44" has not spread in millions around the world ?!

[AlexMH]

Sturmgever, as a reflection of the technical thought of the 3rd Reich, is somewhat similar to the "Panther" - they wanted to make a universal, powerful and massive weapon, but they made it heavy, complex, expensive and insufficiently effective. "Kalash" is more like 34-ke - reliable, like scrap, simple, cheap, and effective, in most parameters inferior to one or another analogue, but incomparable in the sum of these parameters. Conversations about plagiarism are meaningless - the design varies greatly, and then, gunsmiths always spy on each other's nodes, the Germans over there SVT were half licked off during the war for their self-loading .. Kalashnikov himself, by the way, mentioned in his memoirs that he the design of the American M1 was very interesting, and he took some thoughts from there, although these are completely different types of weapons.

[Stasi.]

Why doesn’t anyone want to remember that after the war the Allies, mainly the Americans, rowed everything in Germany without disdaining anything. They exported more than a thousand German scientists, engineers and designers to the United States. And how many technical documentation and patents were exported to the West? And the Germans never even hinted at the fact that many American inventions and innovations were of German origin, but they yelled in unison about Russian plagiarism.

[mr.Man]

Well so most importantly the first to accuse someone of plagiarism ...
The Chinese-Koreans are not fixated on this now ...
German technology was at the forefront, and after the war of indemnity, all the winners used them to develop their countries ...

[mr.Man]

Stg-44 - the barrel is good for its time, the Germans used little time, otherwise they would have rustled them if they had brought it to mind ...
AK-46 ...
AK-47 - the trunk of all time!

Devices are similar only in design, but these are different things.
The mechanics are different ...

Now what kind of "wheelbarrow" you will not look, the engines are almost the same, and the main difference is in the headlights and some kind of box in the cabin and a small unique brand name on the radiator grill and trunk ...
All projects seemed to come from one the designer and only in the factories this design project was brought to the possibilities of its production ...

[16]

In general, AK will be better than M16

[Pancho]

Where does VADIVAK seem to go? It would be very curious to know his opinion.

[vostok-47]

If the AK-47 was copied from the German Stg-44 assault rifle, then why the German model does not have 1/100 of the popularity of our Kalashnikov ???

[AlexxNik]

the article is a big plus, but as for copyright, we can say, why the Germans were rushing after SVTkhoy, it can be assumed that the same claims should be made to tear apart the mechanism of gas exhaust automatics. In general, it’s somehow immoral to blame the old man for copy-making, despite the fact that everyone is not lazy to copy his machine, even the proud arrogant Saxons and their Semitic friends

[Viktor123]

They not only worn with SVT, copying it. But they were also actively used in the Wehrmacht. I saw the German film "Training of Wehrmacht Snipers", release 1944. so in this film one German sniper worked with SVT! And this is in the educational film! This means that the Germans respected this rifle, despite its complexity.
In the states there is such a gun firm "Krebbs", which quietly rivets our Kalashnikovs. So, the AK is successful not only among "underdeveloped African tribes" as some think.

[Zynaps]

what I have always disliked the theme of "the birth of the Kalashnikov assault rifle" is its indispensable transformation into a geveroSrach. some stupid teenagers will surely come out of the cellar with furious cries, to whom Weller's watchdog, Discovery TV channel and neighbor Uncle Petya, to whom smart people in the zone have discovered the meaning of life and told everything about everything, will be revealed to them.

[nokki]

Guys let's be friends! Life is the main criterion for any thought and any deed. The emblem of Mozambique depicts, by no means, the MP-40, but the American astronauts to the ISS are delivered by the Soyuz, not the V-2!

[Ghenxnumx]

"dmitryg (3) RU 2 April 2012 08:34

Well, again - the idea of ​​an intermediate cartridge was picked up after the Germans. They are the pioneers. The very phrase "assault rifle" was invented personally by Hitler.
It's not a shame to copy good things. "

I don’t argue about the name - but "the idea of ​​an intermediate cartridge was picked up" by the Germans from Fedorov, and they (the Germans), as they rightly noted, did not hesitate to copy.

[Schmeiser44]

Hugo Schmeiser, the true creator and legendary designer of the so-called rat name AK! You can’t hide the truth. And all the other arguments, this is only nonsense!

[Schmeiser44]

The constructor of defeated Germany, and even with such a surname that became almost a household name, could not be the author of the main small arms of the victorious army. Therefore, the People's Commissariat of Arms of the Red Army has repeatedly proposed calling the new machine gun the names of S. G. Simonov, V. A. Diagteriev, V. G. Fedorov, A. I. Sudaeva but the masters of domestic weapons categorically refused plagiarism, in view of the deep respect for the engineering genius of the German colleague. Then the unknown secretary of the Komsomol organization Izhmash, the novice inventor and innovator M.T. Kalashnikov, who participated in the STG-47 testing range, was appointed the designer of the new machine. Appointed and immediately classified, until 1989 no one knew who this man was and where he was from.

How important Hugo Schmeisser was for the Soviet Union, it can be seen from the fact that when the rest of the German experts returned, the stay of Hugo Schmeisser in Izhevsk at the arms factory was extended, by comparison with other weapons specialists, for six months. It was only on June 9, 1952, that Hugo Schmeisser who was ill with tuberculosis was allowed to return to Germany.

[Alex]

As often happens, in the comments I found more interesting and new than in the article. To be more precise, I didn’t find anything new in the article. And even the question posed is not answered. In general, another pollution of space.

[brom]

AK-47 and AKSU does not exist in nature. There are AK and AKS-74U. The author, before writing nonsense, learn the materiel or go to the army, or something.

[Sergey]

famous rifle invented ,,,,,, German ,,,,,, weaponry ---
--- did the venerable author's commas come from excitement?
Between the "blue" and the "sky" he too will get a hold of himself?

[Siberian_54]

I don’t know why the author writes the article without knowing the key facts. The first Kalashnikov sample was really much like stg. At least I copied its layout. A similar exhaust system, trigger, but the locking principle was different.
This sample was rejected in tests. Recognized unsuitable for revision.

The head of the training ground, Colonel Lyuty, violated the terms of the competition, wrote a list of 18 improvements and sent his subordinate Kalashnikov to the Kovrov plant. Not in Izhevsk.

There, engineers Zaitsev and Soloviev created a model for the second stage of the competition based on the project of Alexei Bulkin. This was the second time that the terms of the contest were violated. All this is in the memoirs of Kalashnikov himself. There he admits that he did not know how to draw. That Alexander Zaitsev conducted the calculations. You read the books of Kalashnikov himself.
Kalashnikov himself also admitted that he was not an inventor. If anyone is interested, he has only three patents. Moreover, he is not the only author in these patents, but a co-author.
The author writes himself does not know what. He writes that the AB-46 is not a prototype of the AK-47. It only shows the appearance. And if you take it apart, then it's all one-on-one. Except shutter larvae. Kalashnikov himself said that the bolt was copied from the Garand rifle. So what we know as the AK-47 is 90% AB-46.
After that, all information about the author was classified. You will not find any details about Bulkin anywhere. Everywhere they write that the information is lost. Strange, huh?
When Kalashnikov began to write books that about how AK was created, one day Alexander Zaitsev came to a banquet and turned the table in front of people, in disdain. Because Kalashnikov was silent about the people who really created AK.
Everything that I wrote, you can find yourself if you search and delve into the details.
It doesn’t happen that a village guy with 7 classes of a rural school suddenly begins to draw without studying engineering graphics. Or he could calculate something without studying higher mathematics and Sopromat.
Also in Kalashnikov’s memoirs you will find that he was awarded the title of Doctor of Technical Sciences without Ph.D. or Doctoral defense. After all, he never received a higher education. But he wrote a lot of books about himself. I wrote it myself or in the wrong hands?
A fairy tale is everything. What we know as the Kalashnikov Assault rifle is the Bulkin Assault rifle with minor modifications.

[Andrey Georgich]

And what about the analysis of stg 44 and AK sample 47g. And not ak 46g. So it's not fair to compare.