Military Review

The economic power of the Russian Empire is unacceptably exaggerated.

98
The impressive economic growth of the Russian Empire in the last years of its existence is a familiar illustration of the phrases about “Russia that we lost”. But was Russian industry successful in saying that the Bolshevik revolution had thrown a prosperous and powerful country into poverty?


The economic power of the Russian Empire is unacceptably exaggerated.


On the one hand, история teaches us that in the year 1917 there was a social revolution in the Russian Empire, caused by the plight of the workers and peasants. On the other hand, historians claim that the Russian empire of the mid-nineteenth and early twentieth centuries demonstrated phenomenal economic growth rates — only the volume of industrial production in the country increased sevenfold during this period. All the results of the Stalin five-year plans were compared not with anything, but with the level of 1913 of the year.

The discrepancy between these two statements, time after time, makes researchers look for a conspiratorial background of the revolutionary events that have turned our history. Well, this is their right - but a completely exhaustive explanation can be obtained bypassing the role of palace plots, spies and agents of foreign influence.

"Soha" sovereign-emperor

It is not the first year that a demotivator has been walking through social networks - a photograph of the battleship Sevastopol with the caption: “It’s finally established what the plow of Emperor Nicholas II looked like with which Stalin adopted Russia.

And here is another sample of network creativity: a collage of photos of the Russo-Balt car, the Beluga submarine of the Som type, and the Sopvich biplane squadron of the First World War with the insignia of the Russian Empire. Caption under the photo: “Who said“ backward agrarian country ”?”.

The same tone is maintained by many publicists and amateur historians. “In 1913,” they write, “a new page in history has opened aviation, the world's first four-engine aircraft took off. Its creator was the Russian designer I. I. Sikorsky ... In 1913, the gunsmith V. G. Fedorov began testing an automatic rifle. The development of this idea during the First World War was the famous Fedorov assault rifle. ”

Note - the number of 1913 in such articles, reports and infographics is more common than any other. The same was in the days of the USSR.

Indeed, the government of the Russian Empire in the second half of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries actively used measures to stimulate the economy, develop production and product markets, protect domestic producers. Protectionist measures — right up to barrage-based customs tariffs — were a common policy of the Ministry of Finance. In foreign trade, the authorities adhered to the strategy of creating a positive trade balance, and general economic success made it possible to introduce gold circulation in the country in 1897.

For the development of large-scale industry, the empire widely attracted foreign investment. For 1861 – 1880, the share of Russian investments in production was 28%, foreign - 72%. From 1893 to 1903, up to 5,5 billion was invested in railway, industrial and urban construction, which is 25% more than in previous 30 years. In the Donbas and Krivoi Rog 17 operated new metallurgical plants, created with the participation of French, Belgian, as well as German and English capital. In the field of oil production (Baku fields), in addition to the “Russified” Nobel Brothers Association, the French banking house “The Rothschild Brothers” actively worked with 1886, here they collaborated with the British firms “Lane and MacAndrew”, “Samuel and Company” and others.



The main areas for the French-Belgian capital were metallurgy and coal industry in southern Russia, for the British - copper and gold mining, for the German ones - chemical and electrical industry, as well as heavy industry in Poland and the Baltic states. In total, from 1860 to 1900 a year, the volume of industrial output in the empire increased more than sevenfold. Russia confidently entered the top five most economically developed countries of the world.

Enumerate the unique achievements of pre-revolutionary Russia can be long. And all this will be true. However, there are numerous but.

The order for the famous Fedorov assault rifle (self-loading rifle) was actually placed during the First World War, but it was not possible to adjust its serial production at the enterprises due to the low production culture. During the tests in the army in 1916, according to the designer himself, the sample did not give good results due to manufacturing flaws and design complexity, which Fedorov himself wrote about.

Record planes were built in the Russian Empire, but there was simply no own aviation engine building in the country before 1915. The four-engine "Ilya Muromets" of Sikorsky, unique for its time, was equipped with 130-powerful Mercedes engines, and its predecessor, the four-engined record-breaking Russian Vityaz, with German 100-powerful engines made by Argus Motoren.

The Sopwich biplanes were also not Russian-made cars: the Sopwith Aviation Company is a British company. And, last but not least, this is a serial machine, and not created for setting records. It was used in the French and Russian Air Forces, and during the First World War - and in the Air Forces of other countries.

The Russian-Baltic railcar plant in Riga produced quite modern cars of its time, you can't argue with that. The Russian Empire also developed submarines, such as the Dolphin and the Killer Whale. But the type of "Som", which the network authors do not hesitate to illustrate their stories about the industrial successes of Nicholas II, was an American project of the Holland company.

As for the metaphorical “plow”, indeed, in 1909 four Russian dreadnoughts — battleships of the Sevastopol type — were laid down (and launched in 1911) at the shipyards of St. Petersburg. In the years 1911-1917 for the Black Sea fleet three more battleships of somewhat lightweight construction were built - such as the "Empress Maria". But everything is relative. The British "Dreadnought", having completed the naval revolution and spawned a "dreadnought race", was laid down in 1905 and launched in 1906. From 1906 to 1909, another seven dreadnought vessels were laid at the shipyards of England. In 1909, another revolution in naval affairs took place - the battleship “Orion” was laid, which gave the name to the series of ships of the same name (three more were laid down in 1910).

Thus began the era of the super-dreadnoughts, to which the Russian battleships like "Sevastopol" and "Empress Maria" were late.

It's thick, it's empty

To show how Russia has changed in the 100 years preceding the revolution, we note that in 1817, the construction of the St. Petersburg-Moscow highway was completed in 1833 — the second most heavily graded road in the empire. In 1820, a regular stage message was opened between the two capitals - it took 4,5 days to go. Over the 10 years, thousands of people were transported along this route by 33, three thousand a year - this was the scale of the passenger service between the country's largest cities.

The first Russian railway, Tsarskoye Selo, was opened in 1837, just 80 years before the Revolution. The second, connecting Petersburg and Moscow, is in 1851 year. By the 80-th years of the XIX century, the length of railways in Russia reached 20 thousand. Km. From 1893 to 1902, another 27 thousand km of railways came into effect. For comparison, in the United States, 1869, thousands of km of steam railways, was built by an average of 85, thousands of kilometers per year, by 2.

Before the widespread development of rail service in the empire, there was no market covering the whole country — it was fragmented into several parts which were little connected with each other. The grain trade is most indicative in this sense: in the first half of the 19th century, experts distinguish at least three regional market conditions with their internal pricing - this is the Volga market, which developed along the main waterway of the country, Central Black Earth and Black Sea-Ural. In practice, this meant the following.

“In 1843, the cost of a quarter rye 1 (around 200 kg) in Estonia rose, due to crop failure, to 7 rubles. At the same time, in the Chernigov, Kiev, Poltava, and Kharkov gubernia provinces the kul flour (144 kg) was sold at 1 rubles. 20 cop It was practically impossible to deliver bread from this fertile region to the starving provinces, and the country, which exported grain abroad through the ports of the Black and Azov Seas, simultaneously had to import it through the Baltic Sea. ”

Similarly, the situation developed two years later - in the Pskov province the price of a quarter of rye increased to 10 rubles, and in Orel and Mtsensk it did not go beyond a half ruble. “Such a difference in prices did not exist in any developed country in the world,” historians say.

“Everyone knows,” wrote the economist, State Council member L.V. Tengoborsky in this connection, “that by the absence of good means of communication it often happens that many of our provinces suffer from hunger and epidemic diseases ... whereas in other provinces such an excess bread that they have nowhere to sell it. " Only large-scale railway construction allowed the country to create a single market for food and industrial goods - by the 80-th years of the XIX century. But the transport crisis in 1914 – 1916 once again threw Russia into the past, disintegrating the single economic space into many areas that were badly connected with each other, provoking hunger in some places and excess bread in others.

Between these events - the creation of a single market and its collapse during the war - the entire 30 years passed.

It makes no sense to argue that the growth rates of the empire’s economy were truly impressive. But as of the textbook 1913, according to the main economic indicators (coal mining, iron and steel production, engineering output, railway length), Russia was inferior to the United States, Germany, Great Britain and France, ahead of Italy, Spain and Japan. That is, closed the top five leaders of economic development.

At the same time, the high growth rates of that period are explained by the effect of a low start. An indicator such as "growth rates of the economy" is generally extremely crafty. At the beginning of the 21st century, Iraq showed a phenomenal pace - which is not surprising, because the United States democratically bombed it into the Stone Age. Against the background of complete disruption, the launch of even one oil well immediately gave economic growth, measured in tens of percent. But this did not abolish the devastation in everything else.

Black days of the empire

The story about the rapid economic development of Russia at the turn of the XIX – XX centuries gives many people the impression of a linear upward growth. But this is a profound error - the country developed extremely unevenly in this period. Historians single out the 1857, 1866 – 1867, 1869, 1873 – 1875, 1881 – 1883 crises, but the most devastating was the financial crisis of 1898 – 1903, which grew into an economic and economic catastrophe.

The nature of this crisis was directly related to the large-scale attraction of foreign capital to Russia. Commercial banks, laden with money going to the empire, readily credited the stock exchange game, issuing loans on the security of securities. But in the year 1898 everywhere in the West due to its own crisis, interest rates were raised. Western players began to withdraw their capital from Russia and dump Russian securities.

In August, 1899 sounded like a bolt from the blue news on the bankruptcy of the two largest entrepreneurs, owners of many banks and companies - Mamontov and von Derviz. Panic started on the stock exchange. September 23 went down in history as the “black day of the Petersburg Stock Exchange”.

This panic and started a protracted financial crisis. Its scale can be presented from such data: from 1899 to 1902, the stock price of the South-Eastern Railway fell by 52,6%, the Russian-Baltic Carriage Works - by 63,4%, Putilovsky Plant - by 67,1%. The fall in stocks meant a decrease in the capitalization of enterprises, thus the financial crisis turned into an industrial one.

Newspapers wrote: “Payments are suspended, trading establishments are stopped, factories and factories are being reduced or they are directly closing work.” According to far from complete data, almost 1903 thousands of workers were laid off from the iron mines and ferrous metallurgy enterprises by the year 100. In the mining industry in 1900 – 1903, 3088 factories and plants were closed, 112,4 thousand people were laid off. So massive unemployment came to the empire.

“In Nikolaev,” historians point out, “there were 2 thousand of laid-off factory workers, in the Yekaterinoslav province - 10 thousand, in Yuzovka - 15 thousand.” “The factories,” the press reported, “with a few exceptions, stopped working; many workers roam around the city looking for work or bread. ”

In this light, the nature of the First Russian Revolution 1905 of the year becomes much clearer. Understanding the nature of the February revolution of 1917, when the workers demanded bread on the streets, although there was no famine in the country, is also not difficult.

Many authors rightly point out that even at the height of the grain crisis in Petrograd in February 1917, there were enough other products in the stores, from fish to sausages. But the fact is that the main food of workers in the cities of the empire was precisely bread. According to budget surveys of St. Petersburg textile workers in 1908, per consumer in their families with an annual income of about 200 rubles (per adult) butter consumed 21 pound, meat - 107 pounds, herring - 163 pieces, milk - 57 bottles, and bread - 927 pounds per year.

Similar surveys of workers from Tula in 1916 gave the following results: milk and butter consumed 196,7 pounds per year, fish - 11 pounds, meat - 76,4 pounds, vegetables - 792 pounds, bread - 709 pounds, of which white, wheat - only 297,1 pounds .

During the First World War, as a result of the transport crisis, the price of bread in European Russia tripled. This was a terrible blow to the family budgets of a huge mass of the population.

The government of the Russian Empire did not make any attempts to ration the food supply, to adjust the distribution of the bread that became scarce, to introduce a rationing system of distribution. In some places, local governments introduced their cards on their own initiative, in each case, their own, but they did not have the capacity to control the market as a whole, so they did not go further trying to somehow distribute the reserves in the cities.

In February, 1917, due to the worsening crisis of the railway communication, bread ended in the capital of the empire, in Petrograd. Further well known.
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  1. Olgovich
    Olgovich 12 November 2017 06: 56 New
    11
    On the one hand, history teaches us that in the 1917 year a social revolution took place in the Russian Empire, caused by the plight of the workers and peasants. On the other hand, historians argue that the Russian empire of the mid-19th and early 20th centuries demonstrated phenomenal rates of economic growth.
    The mismatch of these two statements over and over again compels the researchers /

    describing the historical situation of the revolution in this way, the author initially puts himself in a ridiculous position: he "does not notice" that the revolution occurred during an unprecedented world war in human history!
    Causing (like all wars) a sharp deterioration in the situation of the population all countries and exacerbated the internal problems existing in these countries. This is a natural process.
    And at the same time, Russia is the ONLY country in which there was no famine in the WWII. In Germany, 800 died 000 people from HUNGER! The catastrophe was in France and England ..

    But Russia, again, is the only country where martial law was not imposed and antiwar propaganda and criticism of the country's leadership were allowed, like .... strikes during the war. In other countries of the strikers - to the tribunal and to prison, and all parties - SUPPORTED their governments.
    And only in Russia, the Bolsheviks spoke out for the defeat of the country under the aggression of foreign invaders, cynically speculating on the inevitable difficulties of the war: the worse, the better.
    Recall the Second World War: Stalin., Knowing the situation, t.s. exhausted, interrupted all potential troublemakers — he already knew HOW it was dangerous in the war, and could anyone imagine criticism and insults of him and his actions in the Supreme Council in the press?

    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Seamaster
      Seamaster 12 November 2017 10: 12 New
      16
      As for those dying of hunger in Germany, England and France - a reference, pzhlst.
      About the admission of propaganda in Russia - a reference, pzhlst. All 5 deputies of the Duma - the Bolsheviks were deprived of their mandates and sent to Siberia in 1914.
      The uprisings in the German fleet, the unrest in the French army were due to the lack of dry closets in the trenches?
      It seems that you remained in 1990 with the binder of the magazine "Spark" in your hands.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 12 November 2017 10: 52 New
        +4
        Quote: Seamaster
        As for those dying of hunger in Germany, England and France - a reference, pzhlst.

        Died of hunger, not dying. How are you with the Russian? request
        Link-sea, incl. in VO, the most authoritative (for me) German "Encyclopedia of the Great War". All competent people know this.
        Quote: Seamaster
        About the admission of propaganda in Russia - a reference, pzhlst. All 5 deputies of the Duma - the Bolsheviks were deprived of their mandates and sent to Siberia in 1914.

        Is propaganda just what the Duma says? belay lol But criticism in the Duma was not made by the Bolsheviks.
        Quote: Seamaster
        The uprisings in the German fleet, the unrest in the French army were due to the lack of dry closets in the trenches?

        No. AND? request
        Quote: Seamaster
        It seems that you remained in 1990 with the binder of the magazine "Spark" in your hands.

        It seems that you remained until 1990 with the filing of the newspaper "." Pravda "" " lol in hand.
      2. Gardamir
        Gardamir 12 November 2017 13: 44 New
        +7
        It seems that you remained in 1990 with the binder of the magazine "Spark" in your hands.
        Fine! Good answer to the boulder crunches!
      3. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 13 November 2017 04: 07 New
        +4
        Quote: Seamaster
        As for those dying of hunger in Germany, England and France - a reference, pzhlst.
        About the admission of propaganda in Russia - a reference, pzhlst. All 5 deputies of the Duma - the Bolsheviks were deprived of their mandates and sent to Siberia in 1914.
        The uprisings in the German fleet, the unrest in the French army were due to the lack of dry closets in the trenches?
        It seems that you remained in 1990 with the binder of the magazine "Spark" in your hands.

        In Germany, about 500 thousand people died as a result of starvation in WWI - this is according to Norman Stone, the author of the book World War I.
        In 1914-1918, about 800 thousand people died from starvation and malnutrition in Germany
        This is according to Wiki
        Reference:
        https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Брюквенная_зима
    3. apro
      apro 12 November 2017 11: 31 New
      +6
      Dear Olgovich, so who threw the tsar away?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 12 November 2017 12: 30 New
        +4
        Quote: apro
        Dear Olgovich, so who threw the tsar away?

        I am addressing you, dear anro, to my handbook: "A short course in the history of VKPb)", created by Comrade Dzhugashvili, where February indicates the following:
        BourgeoisI thought to solve the crisis by palace coup.
        But the people resolved it in their own way.
        "The revolution was carried out by the proletariat, he showed heroism, he shed blood, he carried away the widest masses of the working and the poorest people ... ", wrote Lenin in the early days of the revolution (Lenin, vol. XX, p. 23-24).
        Guide the practical work of the Bolshevik Party was carried out in
        this time was in Petrograd Bureau of the Central Committee of our party
        led by comrade Molotov

        While the Bolsheviks led the direct struggle of the masses on the streets, compromisist parties, Mensheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries seized deputy seats in the Soviets

        In general, I agree with him. hi
        1. apro
          apro 12 November 2017 12: 38 New
          +6
          Cleverly you have left the answer. As I understand it, there is nothing for Olgovich to tell you about this.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 12 November 2017 13: 05 New
            +4
            Quote: apro
            Cleverly you have left the answer. As I understand it, there is nothing for Olgovich to tell you about this.
            belay
            Your question was: Dear Olgovich, so who threw the tsar away?
            My answer is clear: "The revolution was carried out by the proletariat, it showed heroism, it shed blood, it carried away the widest masses of the working and the poorest people ...", - (Lenin, vol. XX, p. 23-24).
            WHAT is not clear ?! request
            1. apro
              apro 12 November 2017 13: 47 New
              +8
              Can you indicate the names of the proletarians? Those who came to Nicholas the Saint for renunciation.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 13 November 2017 11: 06 New
                +1
                Quote: apro
                Can you indicate the names of the proletarians? Those who came to Nicholas the Saint for renunciation.

                We arrived to the tsar already AFTER the revolution, trying to somehow save the situation. This is a consequence.
                There would be no revolution -NOBODY would come! And who made it?
                Again incomprehensible? request
                1. badens1111
                  badens1111 13 November 2017 11: 30 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  There would be no revolution -NOBODY would come! And who made it?
                  Again incomprehensible

                  The Milyukovs, Guchkovs, Ruzsky, Alekseevyv and Kornilovs, what, do you select selective memory and history for your useless and insidious speculation?
                  There is only one question: would it be better if the February Generals won in the Civil War?

                  No, they all knew about the Anglo-French agreement from 23 December 1917 of the year - about the division of zones of influence in Russia: Great Britain received the North Caucasus, France - Ukraine, Crimea and Bessarabia, the United States and Japan divided Siberia and the Far East.

                  Let's lay out the cards again. There is no king - this is the time. There are white generals who, on the whole, were ready for the above alignment and cutting the country — these are two.

                  And there are Bolsheviks who opposed this alignment and cut.

                  "Were the bomb planted?"
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 13 November 2017 13: 52 New
                    +1
                    Quote: badens1111
                    The Milyukovs, Guchkovs, Ruzsky, Alekseevyv and Kornilovs, what, do you select selective memory and history for your useless and insidious speculation?

                    Leader for you-LIEND ?! What remains of you holy, communist, comrade bundes? request LEAVE, finally: "Cr. KU.i.vkpbe," 1938:

                    The bourgeoisie thought to resolve the crisis through a palace coup.
                    But the people resolved it in their own way.
                    "The revolution was carried out by the proletariat, he showed heroism, he shed blood, he carried away the widest masses of the working and the poorest people ... ", Lenin wrote in the early days of the revolution (Lenin, vol. XX, pp. 23-24).
                    The practical work of the Bolshevik Party was led in
                    this time the Party Central Committee Bureau in Petrograd
                    led by comrade Molotov
                    While the Bolsheviks led the direct struggle of the masses on the streets, the compromisist parties, the Mensheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries seized parliamentary seats

                    Oh no no no! lol laughing
    4. captain
      captain 12 November 2017 13: 00 New
      +2
      Quote: Olgovich
      On the one hand, history teaches us that in the 1917 year a social revolution took place in the Russian Empire, caused by the plight of the workers and peasants. On the other hand, historians argue that the Russian empire of the mid-19th and early 20th centuries demonstrated phenomenal rates of economic growth.
      The mismatch of these two statements over and over again compels the researchers /

      describing the historical situation of the revolution in this way, the author initially puts himself in a ridiculous position: he "does not notice" that the revolution occurred during an unprecedented world war in human history!
      Causing (like all wars) a sharp deterioration in the situation of the population all countries and exacerbated the internal problems existing in these countries. This is a natural process.
      And at the same time, Russia is the ONLY country in which there was no famine in the WWII. In Germany, 800 died 000 people from HUNGER! The catastrophe was in France and England ..

      But Russia, again, is the only country where martial law was not imposed and antiwar propaganda and criticism of the country's leadership were allowed, like .... strikes during the war. In other countries of the strikers - to the tribunal and to prison, and all parties - SUPPORTED their governments.
      And only in Russia, the Bolsheviks spoke out for the defeat of the country under the aggression of foreign invaders, cynically speculating on the inevitable difficulties of the war: the worse, the better.
      Recall the Second World War: Stalin., Knowing the situation, t.s. exhausted, interrupted all potential troublemakers — he already knew HOW it was dangerous in the war, and could anyone imagine criticism and insults of him and his actions in the Supreme Council in the press?

      Among the masses of Lenin’s fans commenting on the article, there is no understanding why Stalin almost let all Leninists go to waste or made it possible to go abroad. You are Olgovich in one sentence; "Stalin ... killed all the troublemakers .." do not educate them. These people are fanatics, but not willing to risk their skin (the 1991 events showed this). This category of people are ready to call for barricades and send others to attack, they themselves will not go there. They are like Trotsky, forward to the front, beat the whites, but they themselves did not go on the attack.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 12 November 2017 13: 14 New
        +3
        Quote: captain
        Among the masses of Lenin’s fans commenting on the article, there is no understanding why Stalin almost let all Leninists go to waste or made it possible to go abroad. You are Olgovich in one sentence; "Stalin ... killed all the troublemakers .." do not educate them ..

        I agree, dear Yuri!
        But they are also Russian. Tell them the facts of the history of our country, it is necessary, something is postponed anyway .. hi
      2. badens1111
        badens1111 12 November 2017 14: 11 New
        +2
        Quote: captain
        Among the masses of Lenin’s fans commenting on the article, there is no understanding why Stalin almost let all Leninists go to waste or made it possible to go abroad

        And so you have it? Well, tell us an enchanting story on this topic.
        Immediately, only the “faithful” Leninist, as you please put it, Trotsky, appropriated this name for himself in the hope of winning the internal party struggle, but it was bad luck and he and his henchmen ended equally badly. And everything was correctly done by Stalin.
        Secondly, you deigned to say something about those going on the attack .. well, you, a Soviet-awarded and former communist, of course know what you’re talking about, you turned in a country that you swore and a party card that you apparently used from your career motives, so you’ll make a claim to yourself how you were in red in the evening, and in the morning, bam is white. Inside, you always had a wormhole.
        And now, you are simply simply afraid ... not for nothing that our proverb-traitor says well-being will not remain. and betrayal of happiness you will not find.

        FEBRUARY and the upper class of the Republic of Ingushetia are the culprits of the tragedy, so there’s nothing to blame for you like that, to throw over to others.
    5. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 12 November 2017 18: 35 New
      +4
      As Lenin wrote, the Bolsheviks advocated the defeat of the government, which allowed this government to remove and take power themselves! And the Bolshevik party was only a small illegal organization in 1914. and her position on the issue of attitudes to the war meant little, since all the legal and part of the illegal parties (the majority) supported the war.
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 12 November 2017 07: 32 New
    +9
    Similar surveys of Tula workers in 1916 yielded the following results: milk and butter were consumed 196,7 pounds per year, fish - 11 pounds,
    meat - 76,4 pounds
    vegetables - 792 pounds, bread - 709 pounds, of which white, wheat - only 297,1 pounds.
    Campaigning for the Bolsheviks, you can’t give figures; campaigning is reversed! lol Pound is
    0,41 kg, respectively, during the terrible war in 1916, each person in the working-class family I ate 285 kg of bread and 31,1 kg of meat! During the onset of socialism in 1937 he ate 192 kg of bread and meat-18 kg.-without any war
    1. badens1111
      badens1111 12 November 2017 10: 19 New
      12
      Quote: Olgovich
      During the onset of socialism in 1937, he ate 192 kg of bread and meat-18 kg. -Without any war

      Again .. like an eyewitness?
      Summary of the myth

      The assertion is often postulated that the population of the USSR suffered from a shortage of food, starving. Famine supposedly disappeared only in post-Soviet Russia. When discussing this thesis, anti-communist publicists are inclined to speculate on the topic of the “Soviet deficit”, ignoring the essence and causes of this phenomenon.

      Примеры использования

      “Once at the Dorogomilovsky market I go to a kiosk with sausages, prices seem to be reasonable compared to other stores, but the look of the products is very beautiful. I ask the saleswoman: “I suppose everything is from French meat?” And she is already in her years and answers me: “My meat remained in the Union, where will the meat-packing plant take it now?” And then, damn it, a nearby intellectual of about forty years old, wearing glasses, an obvious Muscovite crawls into our conversation: “But in the USSR, sausage could only be bought with coupons!” We look at him with a saleswoman and do not know what to say - because, judging by his years, he is obliged to remember everything. But he looks absolutely sincere - he is absolutely sure that he was starving in the USSR ”1).

      Действительность http://wiki.istmat.info/%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%84:%D0%BF
      %D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B2_%D1%8
      1%D1%81%D1%81%D1%80_%D0%B8_%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%
      81%D0%B8%D0%B8
      And now, Olgovich speculating in digital numbers, look here http://sci-article.ru/stat.php?i=1488144433
      Based on the foregoing, we can draw the following conclusions:

      1) for the most valuable protein products, such as milk and dairy products, eggs, fish and fish products, as well as sugar in Russia for 30 years of reforms carried out within the framework of the idea of ​​a free market and the dominance of private property, the level of consumption has not been reached, which we had in the conditions of the socialist, planned economy of the USSR by 1990

      2) the actual consumption of food at present in the Russian Federation is extremely unsatisfactory. It is not only significantly inferior to the nutritional level in the USSR of the late 80s for protein products containing essential amino acids, but significantly lower than the healthy nutritional standards developed in the USSR, does not meet the recommended healthy nutritional standards approved by the Ministry of Health of the Russian Federation. There is a significant shortage in the diet of milk, fish, meat, eggs.

      The picture becomes even more depressing, if we take into account:

      1) deterioration in the quality of food products, an increase in their composition of the share of artificial additives and substitutes;

      2) social stratification, taking into account which the nutritional quality of large social groups below the poverty line is significantly worse than the average values;

      3) a fall in real incomes of the population, in which, according to opinion polls, people actively save on food. At the end of 2015, citizens began to spend more than 50% of their income on food (for comparison, in Germany - 11,7%, the maximum rates in Europe in Lithuania - 25,4% and Romania - 27,5%), and each the third Russian buyer (34%) today says it prefers to buy cheaper products (five years ago only every fourth buyer adhered to such a strategy (23%)).

      Thus, the postulated thesis of market reformers that the USSR collapsed as a result of some kind of “systemic crisis” developed on the basis of a discrepancy between the prevailing socioeconomic and political model and the demands of the emerging consumer society, including food shortages is, to put it mildly, pseudoscientific and has nothing to do with reality. On the contrary, almost 30 years of reforms clearly demonstrate a systemic inability within the framework of the capitalist oligarchy and the dominance of the institution of private property to solve the problem of improving the quality of food.
      And tell us all the next fable that everything is "good" now, otherwise everyone is used to speculating on issues almost a hundred years ago.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 12 November 2017 11: 02 New
        +8
        Quote: badens1111
        Again .. like an eyewitness?

        I quote the REPORT of the Central Statistical Administration of the USSR, 1955. Owls statistics-brechet ?! You are comrade encroach on the holystatistics! wink And she is not so sweet ...
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Curious
          Curious 12 November 2017 14: 54 New
          +3
          Olgovich: "All competent people know this." Are you here with it? Who ranked you among literate people - Second Vienna Arbitration? The citation of the Report of the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR of 1955 is not a sign of a competent person.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 November 2017 11: 09 New
            0
            Quote: Curious
            Olgovich: "All competent people know this." Are you here with it? Who ranked you among literate people - Second Vienna Arbitration? The citation of the Report of the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR of 1955 is not a sign of a competent person.

            Ch. comrade Curiosity! What are you obsessive!
            Once again I remind you: I do not communicate with you (disdain). You know the reason. You agreed.
            And? request
      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 12 November 2017 11: 42 New
        +4
        Dear badens111, I'm sorry, but you are wrong
        Indeed, I came across similar figures - meat consumption in 1913 - 29 kg, in 1937 - 18 kg. Fish - 6,7 and 5,6 kg, milk and dairy products - 154 and 138 kg and so on ... There is growth only in potatoes (75 kg and 151 kg) sugar (8,1 kg 13,8 kg) for vegetables and Bakhchev (40 and 78 kg) http://sci-article.ru/stat.php?i=1488144433 - the article is very so-so, but the numbers are taken from istmath, at the bottom of the link
        1. badens1111
          badens1111 12 November 2017 12: 11 New
          +7
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk

          Colleague, you look at the difference that is in total consumption. And if there is less meat, then in others there is more, in general, it was enough. Olgovich is engaged in speculation.
          More than once, his entire balcony was dismantled.
          And this is to the question of his preferences.
          talking about the revolution, Lenin, its opponents go in the same circle, carefully reproducing the same, in our opinion, erroneous arguments.
          1. Even if you are very fond of the monarchy, you must somehow accept the simple fact that the Bolsheviks did not overthrow the tsar. The Bolsheviks overthrew the liberal-zapadnicheskoe Provisional Government.
          2. The fight against the Bolsheviks was not started by the people who fought for “Faith, Tsar and Fatherland,” but rather Lavr Kornilov, the general who announced the arrest of the empress and the royal family.
          Among his closest associates was Boris Savinkov - Social Revolutionary, a revolutionary, a terrorist who did everything to overthrow the monarchy. Savinkov tried to save the Provisional Government in the Winter. He served as commissar of the Provisional Government in the detachment of General Peter Krasnov. Engaged in the formation of the Volunteer Army.
          Another prominent figure in the White movement, General Mikhail Alekseev, was also involved in the removal of Nicholas II from power; in addition, like many leaders of the Provisional Government, Alekseev entered the Masonic Lodge.
          The question is, in fact, one. People who oppose the Bolsheviks and Lenin really believe that Russia would be better if it were ruled by liberals, revolutionaries who practiced terrorist methods, and generals who had changed their oath during the entire XX century?
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 12 November 2017 12: 50 New
          +5
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Dear badens111, I'm sorry, but you are wrong
          Indeed, I came across similar figures - meat consumption in 1913 - 29 kg, in 1937 - 18 kg. Fish - 6,7 and 5,6 kg, milk and dairy products - 154 and 138 kg and so on ... There is growth only in potatoes (75 kg and 151 kg) sugar (8,1 kg 13,8 kg) for vegetables and Bakhchev (40 and 78 kg) http://sci-article.ru/stat.php?i=1488144433 - the article is very so-so, but the numbers are taken from istmath, at the bottom of the link

          Dear Andrey from Chelyabinsk, a direct link to the Report of the Central Statistical Bureau of 1955, where the numbers are mentioned-http: //istmat.info/node/18419
          .
          But tt .. baden, Green, and a number of others, this resource DO NOT recognizelike screenshots Rosarchives -Flash stuffing and fake. request
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 12 November 2017 13: 17 New
            +7
            Quote: Olgovich
            But tt .. baden, Green, and a number of others, this resource is NOT recognized, like the screenshots of the Rosarchives, they are smelled with stuff and a fake.

            Oh, these bewitching statistics, only eyewitnesses say different things.
            One of the initiators of the creation of the monarchical organization All-Russian National Union, Mikhail Osipovich Menshikov, wrote in 1909: “Every year the Russian army becomes more and more ill and physically incapable ... Of the three guys, it’s hard to choose one that is completely suitable for service ... Bad food in the village, wandering life on earnings, early marriages that require hard work at an almost youthful age - these are the causes of physical exhaustion ... It's scary to say what hardships a rookie sometimes undergoes before serving. About 40% of new recruits ate meat for the first time upon admission to military service. In service, the soldier eats, in addition to good bread, excellent meat cabbage soup and porridge, i.e. something that many already have no idea in the village ... ".
            Exactly the same data was given by Commander-in-Chief General Vasily Gurko - on a call from 1871 to 1901, reporting that 40% of peasant guys for the first time in their life try meat in the army.
            I don’t think that something has changed a lot in Russia from 1909 to 1913. When perestroika began, and crocodile tears began to pour over tsarist Russia, that life was better then, I asked my father (born in 1909): “Is it really so good under the tsar, as now they write in“ Spark ”in“ Arguments and Facts ”,“ Top Secret ”? To which he replied to me: “Our family so that it does not starve too much, but they never ate their fill»
        3. badens1111
          badens1111 12 November 2017 14: 39 New
          +5
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          article is very so-so

          Sorry for, so to speak, the not-so-complete answer .. was absent as necessary.
          So about meat ... speculators of various kinds, like they completely forget how much livestock is needed to grow, when the profitability of the livestock, including meat, and what prevented the country.
          Somehow, the speculators’s memory is drastically weakening, forgetting that during the Civilian population it was sharply reduced, the drought 30 and the same hunger strike provoked not by the Bolsheviks, as they painted here, but the peasants themselves didn’t sow the Italian strike as they should, they didn’t get the crop, they slaughtered the oxen, Ukraine and Krasnodasrky. Stavropol Territory, the result. We got what we got, it is a fact, but to restore it, it takes not a month, not a year or two.
          Reality today, to this day, without a war, the civilian and especially the Great Patriotic War Russia has not supplied itself with cattle meat by now, the question is, why is this so?
          It seems like the 21st century, technology and so on, but we don’t have cattle in the quantity and quality that we had in the late USSR. So there was no war, but where did everything go? CUT TO 90 years old, large breeding farms were killed. they are tormenting nonsense, telling tales that they say that the damned Bolsheviks did not give him cowboys ..
          After all, the link to which he refers, upon examination, turns out to be a problem, the way to solve it has been outlined, but this, the speculator on the problem, does not see him point blank.
          So the rightness of it is one-sided and, as always, is foolish.
          That's about it, as they bashfully keep quiet ...
          And the numbers show that in what there was no success, so in the hair of a goat and a camel, so compete with them and who will spit further and ... well, you understand about small peas.
          http://www.great-country.ru/articles/sssr/sov_sta
          t / 00003.html
          The same data in real terms, in kg. per person per year:
          The pre-revolutionary period of 1925 1936 * 1952 * 1976 1986
          Мясо 14,6 35,7 14,4 14,4 46,9 55,9
          Молоко 130,3 109,7 137 170,4 415 355,6
          Яйца 29 62 38,4 57,6 253 290
          Fish 3,5 7,5 - - 16,1 15,8
          Сахар 2,2 9,9 3,6 4,8 45,8 41,7
          Картофель 77,1 90,6 239 224 138 125
          Овощи 22,8 37,5 72 66 52,5 71,6
          Хлеб 253,1 174,1 270 246 182,9 152,3
          I took the data for 1936 and 52 from here: Table of the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR “Consumption of food in the families of peasants in 1905-1913, 1923/24, 1928/29, 1936, 1940, 1950, 1952. and 1953. " They are in the USSR, not the RSFSR.
          SHARE OF HUNGERS IN THE POPULATION OF CENTRAL RUSSIA (Tsarist period)
          (without Poland and without Finland) in 1891-1911 years
          HUNGER: 1891 - 25,7% and 1892 - 9,1%. In 1893 - 0,1%, 1894 - 0,5%, 1895 - 1,1%, 1896 - 2,2%,
          1897 - 3,8%, 1898 - 9,7% 1899 - 3,2%, 1900 - 1,5%.
          At the beginning of the XX century, Russia was hungry in Russia: 1901-1902, 1905-1908 and 1911 - 1912 years.
          In 1901 - 1902, 49 provinces starved: in 1901 - 6,6%, 1902 - 1%, 1903 - 0,6%, 1904 -― 1,6%.
          In 1905 - 1908. starved from 19 to 29 provinces: in 1905 - 7,7%, 1906 - 17,3% of the population
          In 1911 - 1912 over the 2 of the year, famine swept 60 provinces: in 1911 - 14,9% of the population.
          30 million people were on the brink of death.
          According to various estimates in the years 1901-1912. about 8 million people died from hunger and its consequences. The tsarist government was preoccupied with how to hide the scale of hunger. In the press, censorship forbade the use of the word “hunger,” replacing it with the word “underperformance.”
          Emperor Nicholas II, on the contrary, sharply curtailed the rights of the zemstvos to combat hunger, and in 1911 and 1912 completely prohibited the participation of zemstvos, the Red Cross, and charitable organizations in helping the starving. Nicholas II issued a unique decree "On the preparation of bread from bards and straw flour, which could replace the use of ordinary rye bread."
          The number of people in need, according to rough estimates, amounted to 8,2 million people. Prominent publicist doctor, Chairman of the Pirogovsky Society D.N. Zhbankov wrote: “Diseases and cases of starvation, ruin and general poverty, mutilation of moral character - robberies, arson, trafficking in children and oneself, suicide and complete physical and spiritual prostration - all these bring crop failures in Russia” .http: // www.domarchive.ru/chronica/286
          And finally, the singer for the whites, as it immediately stalls when he is presented with this.
          Quote:
          "... our Civil War was inextricably linked with the war for the independence of Russia - the war against the intervention of the West." (S. Kara-Murza. Civil war in Russia.) And here one just cannot help but see that the white movement objectively and directly worked to achieve the main centuries-old goal of the West - to dismember Russia first into occupation zones, and then, of course, into limotrophs, “CIS countries,” where, as they say, no current Erefiy would smell. It is naive to think that the officially (and secretly) serving in the service of the British crown Kolchak, with the clearest eye intentionally proclaimed the “Supreme Ruler of Russia”, the famous Germanophile Ataman Krasnov, Denikin, the ward of the French Wrangel would have opposed the will of the owners. We now see how they can manage the “wards” who have become addicted to them, and even in the same Ukraine; and with Russia as a single country it would then be done away with. "
          Full text here http://denlit.ru/index.php?view=articles&arti
          cles_id = 2764
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 November 2017 12: 35 New
            +1
            Quote: badens1111
            According to various estimates in the years 1901-1912. about 8 million people died from hunger and its consequences

            You can’t prove it. But okay.
            From the article in the period indicated by you, starving in 1908:
            St. Petersburg textile workers in 1908, for one consumer in their families with an annual income of about 200 rubles (per adult), 21 pounds of oil were consumed, 107 pounds of meat, 163 pounds of herring, 57 bottles of milk, and 927 pounds of bread. year.
            . Those. meat42 kg, bread 510 kg. I allow you to bring these same data on the same people in the blessed 1937 yes
            In the Report, the CSB (which you, RECOGNIZED, lol laughing ), for reference, I recall-meat-18 kg, bread-192 kg

            Yes, and explain how it happened: they ate MORE in 1913, but "died out", in 1937 - LESS, but bloomed ?! request lol
            And one more thing: in order to achieve the productivity of a peasant horse and a Russian peasant of the 1913 sample, you needed to “fight” 40 years: caloric intake 1955 g-2842 kcal (TsSU USSR), and caloric intake in the Republic of Ingushetia in 1913-3000 kcal (Witcroft, for others - above), i.e. caught up to 1960 year. How are you, huh? request
      3. karabas86
        karabas86 12 November 2017 21: 46 New
        +4
        +100500 but do not convince them of the "bakers" - believers, but it is impossible to convince the patient.
    2. Hantengri
      Hantengri 12 November 2017 20: 43 New
      +5
      Quote: Olgovich
      Campaigning for the Bolsheviks, you can’t give figures; campaigning is reversed! Pound is
      0,41 kg, respectively, during the terrible war in 1916, each person in the working-class family ate 285 kg of bread and 31,1 kg of meat! During the onset of socialism in 1937, he ate 192 kg of bread and meat-18 kg. -Without any war

      Olgovich, is this from your "Secret" REPORT of the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR, 1955 http://istmat.info/node/18419? Then why do you, all the time, provide data for only 37 years? Are you shy for 28 and 40? The "horror" will not be so terrible? And yes! You, by illiteracy, are comparing two samples, the comparison of which, to put it mildly, is incorrect: the level of nutrition Tula workers in 1916 \ 1937! = power level total (including workers, peasants, intelligentsia and parasites like you) of the population of the Republic of Ingushetia / USSR for 1916 \ 1937. For the illiterate, I’ll explain - this is about how to compare 10 kg and 15 m! laughing
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 November 2017 11: 49 New
        +1
        Quote: HanTengri
        Quote: Olgovich
        Campaigning for the Bolsheviks, you can’t give figures; campaigning is reversed! Pound is
        0,41 kg, respectively, during the terrible war in 1916, each person in the working-class family ate 285 kg of bread and 31,1 kg of meat! During the onset of socialism in 1937, he ate 192 kg of bread and meat-18 kg. -Without any war

        Olgovich, is this from your "Secret" REPORT of the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR, 1955 http://istmat.info/node/18419? Then why do you, all the time, provide data for only 37 years? Are you shy for 28 and 40? The "horror" will not be so terrible? And yes! You, by illiteracy, are comparing two samples, the comparison of which, to put it mildly, is incorrect: the level of nutrition Tula workers in 1916 \ 1937! = power level total (including workers, peasants, intelligentsia and parasites like you) of the population of the Republic of Ingushetia / USSR for 1916 \ 1937. For the illiterate, I’ll explain - this is about how to compare 10 kg and 15 m! laughing

        I do not communicate with you, comrade Khan (disdain). Those. I do not read and do not answer .. You know the reason. . Do not bother, but save me from your pesky attention hi
        1. badens1111
          badens1111 13 November 2017 11: 57 New
          +1
          Quote: Olgovich
          I do not communicate with you

          It resembles the behavior of a fairly capricious baby, at the expense of toys, a pot and a sandbox.
          You have nothing to answer questions for which you have no answers.
          And those that are, from the category of gossip, fairy tales and myths, distortion and chatter, on which you are constantly caught.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 November 2017 14: 03 New
            0
            Quote: badens1111
            Quote: Olgovich
            I do not communicate with you

            It resembles the behavior of a fairly capricious baby, at the expense of toys, a pot and a sandbox.
            You have nothing to answer questions for which you have no answers.
            And those that are, from the category of gossip, fairy tales and myths, distortion and chatter, on which you are constantly caught.

            Comrade the khan called me and the grandfathers of the veterans-gu.an, specifying (so that I was not mistaken) that these are excrement ..
            Would you talk after that? No.
  3. parusnik
    parusnik 12 November 2017 07: 38 New
    16
    Another aspect, during the war, Germany, the importer of food, provided its army with food, the exporter of food- RI could not provide its army with bread .... A.I. Denikin writes about this ..
    1. Seamaster
      Seamaster 12 November 2017 10: 18 New
      14
      Well, my friend, they found someone to refer to - some Denikin.
      You look through the file “Spark”, look at early Govorukhin (about French rolls), listen to “Echo of Moscow”.
      This is Benedict - a lump of humanity.
      And Denikin - so, ran past.
      True, the law on the surplus appraisal in October 1916 was adopted for some reason.
      Probably the tsar father did not know where to put the bread.
      1. Gopnik
        Gopnik 12 November 2017 20: 47 New
        +3
        Quote: Seamaster
        True, the law on the surplus appraisal in October 1916 was adopted for some reason.


        Food Survey 1916 voluntary and for money. The surplus appraisal of the Bolsheviks - the raking of all food under clean and free.
        1. badens1111
          badens1111 12 November 2017 23: 27 New
          +1
          Quote: Gopnik
          Food Survey 1916 voluntary and for money. The surplus appraisal of the Bolsheviks - the raking of all food under clean and free.

          Oh well ... well, it would be easier for you if the entire population of industrial centers and cities died in general, but the fists triumphed?
          1. Gopnik
            Gopnik 12 November 2017 23: 33 New
            +3
            Do not bring to this. If your hands are from one place - sit in your Switzerland write articles, there is nothing to ride in sealed wagons. But in 1916 this did not happen, and the surplus appraisal did not have to do this.
            1. badens1111
              badens1111 13 November 2017 00: 08 New
              +1
              Quote: Gopnik
              No need to bring this up

              Questions to the Februaryists, white and other traitors, as well as to the Entente.
              1. Gopnik
                Gopnik 13 November 2017 00: 38 New
                +1
                First of all, questions to those who brought this to and who carried out this surplus-appraisal - traitors-Russophobes to the Bolsheviks.
                1. badens1111
                  badens1111 13 November 2017 09: 12 New
                  0
                  Quote: Gopnik
                  First of all, questions to those who brought this to and who conducted this surplus-appraisal

                  To school, on the march. You disgustingly know the subject on which you are trying to reason.
                  In 1918, the center of Soviet Russia was cut off from the country's most important agricultural regions. Stocks of bread ran out. The urban and poorest rural populations were starving. To meet the minimum needs, the Soviet government was forced to introduce the strictest accounting of food surpluses, mainly at the prosperous part of the village, which sought to break the state grain monopoly and preserve freedom of trade. In those conditions, the surplus appraisal was the only possible form of harvesting bread.

                  The reconnaissance was the most accessible measure for an insufficiently organized state to hold out in an unprecedentedly difficult war against the landowners.
                  - Vladimir Lenin V. I. Lenin, Complete Works, 5th ed., Vol. 44, p. 7

                  Shortly after the February Revolution on March 25, 1917, the Provisional Government introduced a bread monopoly, which envisaged transferring the entire volume of produced bread minus the established consumption standards to personal and household needs, and on August 20, 1917 a circular was issued on the armed seizure of bread from large owners and all producers from the closest to railway stations of villages. However, this circular was applied hesitantly, and before the October Revolution of 1917, the Provisional Government collected only 280 million pounds out of the 650 million planned.

                  The surplus development allowed the Bolsheviks to solve the vital problem of the food supply of the Red Army and the urban proletariat. She saved millions of workers and office workers from starvation. But it was an emergency measure, and soon after the war ended on March 21, 1921 it was replaced by a food tax.

                  http://kommynist.ru/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%8
                  0%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%91%D1%80%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BA
                  % D0% B0
                  1. Gopnik
                    Gopnik 13 November 2017 11: 05 New
                    +2
                    Yes, no school will help you, only psychiatry. Well, who cut off Soviet Russia in 1918? Germans? Austrians? Turks? The Bolsheviks staged a maidan, ruined the country and began to rob peasants in order to sit in cities. And I don’t need links to the works of your mummy and to the sites of communist.ru. Feed this bodyagie to other left-handed people who are just as crazy about Russophobia.
                    1. badens1111
                      badens1111 13 November 2017 11: 33 New
                      0
                      Quote: Gopnik
                      Bolsheviks

                      Who do you trust more?

                      Grand Duke Romanov or Democrats of the 90s?
                      Zakhar Prilepin: If someone begins to bury Lenin, Lenin will bury them in return.
                      And the rest of your verbal rubbish is not subject to consideration and answer; rubbish is rubbish.
    2. Gopnik
      Gopnik 12 November 2017 20: 46 New
      +2
      Germany, in fact, was also quite an exporter of food. Including to Russian Poland and Finland (before the war, of course). And they didn’t provide their army and people with their food, there was a famine there during the WWII.
  4. Cartalon
    Cartalon 12 November 2017 08: 12 New
    +3
    The bread ended in February 17, but there was no famine in Petrograd, maybe it didn’t completely end?
    1. Seamaster
      Seamaster 12 November 2017 10: 22 New
      +9
      There was no famine, but they made a revolution in February, the police and officers were killed.
      From boredom, probably.
      Or for a visa-free regime in the EU?
  5. Amurets
    Amurets 12 November 2017 08: 52 New
    +5
    In February, 1917, due to the worsening crisis of the railway communication, bread ended in the capital of the empire, in Petrograd. Further well known.

    Here is the evidence of V.M. Virolainen, later a prominent Soviet railroad worker. << In the fall of the eighteenth year, the citizens of Petrograd received ration cards an eight pound per head per day - fifty grams! They brought bread to Peter with great difficulties.

    And then, at the Finnish Locomotive Depot in Petrograd, mindful of Lenin’s advice, the Finnish railroad decided to organize the first block trains in the country to transport bread to Petrograd - first from the Volga region, and then from Siberia and from Ukraine. There were seven block trains, and in the third of them, Voldemar Matveyevich Virolainen stood behind the reverse of the engine.
    << - You see, there is bread in the depths of Russia! .. There is a lot of it in Siberia! But there is nothing to carry. As you know, our transport is in ruin. Yes, we must tell the truth - devastation! Trouble with steam locomotives! With discipline too! You Finns have your own steam locomotives and your wagons. What would you like to send trains to Siberia? You have paper, cigarettes, it seems, good ones, textiles, agricultural machines - send them in exchange to Siberian peasants, and bring grain from there! .. "
    1. Seamaster
      Seamaster 12 November 2017 10: 04 New
      +4
      Amurets, are you kidding me like that?
      In the fall of 1918, the territory controlled by the Bolsheviks narrowed to the size of the Russian Principality of the 15th century.
      In Siberia, Mr. Kolchak and his comrades panicked. I don’t think that he would send bread to St. Petersburg and Moscow even if there were steam locomotives.
      Well, and whose power at that time was in Ukraine - see Vika.
      So are you a prankster or a victim of the exam?
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 12 November 2017 10: 21 New
        +1
        Quote: Seamaster
        So are you a prankster or a victim of the exam?

        You are the victim of the exam. I graduated from school when they didn’t hear about the Unified State Exam and learn to read and think. "In the fall of the eighteenth year, Petrograd citizens received ration cards an eight pound per capita per day - fifty grams! It was then that in the Finnish steam locomotive depot in Petrograd, mindful of Lenin's advice, the Finnish railroad workers decided to organize the first block trains in the country to deliver bread to Petrograd - first from the Volga region, and then from Siberia and from Ukraine . >> And see the order of where the trains went.
        1. Seamaster
          Seamaster 12 November 2017 10: 43 New
          +5
          I see.
          At that time in the Volga region there were white whispers and Komuch, Siberia was completely under the whites, Ukraine - under the white \ Germans \ Skoropadsky \ Petlyura - consistently.
          And how would they take out bread from there?
          But those 50 grams (in real half a pound) just provided the very same food detachments that liberals hate so much .... ly.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 12 November 2017 11: 09 New
          +4
          Quote: Amurets
          .In the fall of the eighteenth year, Petrograd citizens received cards of eight pounds per capita per day - fifty grams!

          Quote: Amurets
          .In the fall of the eighteenth year, Petrograd citizens received cards of eight pounds per capita per day - fifty grams!

          The fact of a terrible famine in the fall of 1918, in St. Petersburg is well known. The first cannibals under the new government appeared not in 1921 in the Volga region, but in St. Petersburg that fall.
          In RI, they were not.
          1. badens1111
            badens1111 12 November 2017 11: 52 New
            +2
            Quote: Olgovich
            The first cannibals under the new government appeared not in 1921 in the Volga region, but in St. Petersburg that fall.

            It’s not good to lie ... you don’t have any facts. The second, unlike the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Republic of Ingushetia, which really didn’t understand anything and didn’t keep statistics. .
            And so everything was fine in RI ...
            27 (14) April 1910
            TOMSK, 13, IV. In Sudzhenskoy parish in migrant villages hunger. Several families died out.
            For three months now, the settlers have been feeding on a mixture of mountain ash and rot with flour. Food assistance is needed.
            TOMSK, 13, IV. In the resettlement warehouses in the area Anuchinsky and Imansky found waste. According to reports from the field, something terrible is happening in these areas. Migrants go hungry. Live in the mud. Earn no.
            20 (07) July 1910 of the year
            TOMSK, 6, VII. Due to chronic hunger, in 36-ti villages of the Yenisei district among the migrants there is rampant typhus, as well as scurvy. The mortality rate is high. The settlers feed on surrogates, drink swamp water. From the composition of the epidemic squad, infect two nurses.

            18 (05) September 1910 of the year
            KRASNOYARSK, 4, IX. In the entire Minusinsk district at the present time, due to the poor harvest this year, famine. The settlers ate all their cattle. By order of the Yenisei governor, a consignment of bread was sent to the county. However, this bread is not enough, and half of the hungry. Emergency assistance is required.

            February 10 (January 28) Year 1911
            SARATOV, 27, I. Received the news of hungry typhus in Alexandrov Gay, Novouzensk district, where the population suffers terrible need. This year, the peasants collected only 10 pounds per tithing. After three months of correspondence, a nutritional point is established.

            01 April (19 March) 1911 of the year
            RYBINSK, 18, III. The village headman Karagin, 70- years, contrary to the prohibition of the foreman, gave the peasants of the Spasskaya parish a little extra grain from the grain store. This "crime" led him to the dock. At the trial, Karagin explained with tears that he had done this out of pity for the starving peasants. The court fined him three rubles.
            http://masterok.livejournal.com/3395855.html
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 12 November 2017 13: 41 New
              +2
              Quote: badens1111
              It’s not good to lie ... you don’t have any facts. The second, unlike the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Republic of Ingushetia, which really did not understand anything and did not keep statistics. The NKVD had it

              True, comrade baden, really. I draw your attention to the discussion on Isthmath (YOUR comm resource), where for four years your comrades have been digging the earth in search of cannibalism in the Republic of Ingushetia (in the archives of the Republic of Ingushetia, reports of the Republic of Ingushetia, evidence, etc.) NEVER digging , including Your respected "Critic." They frowned! lol
              But along the way they dug ..... cannibalism in 1918 in St. Petersburg.
              How they cried, this is a must read! request
          2. Seamaster
            Seamaster 12 November 2017 11: 56 New
            +3
            You, my friend. You show such knowledge about cannibals in Russia.
            Do you have statistics on this issue?
            Or just a liberal tryn-dzh?
            Share, pzhlst.
            For example, about the wild famine of 1891.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 12 November 2017 13: 44 New
              +2
              Quote: Seamaster
              You, my friend. You show such knowledge about cannibals in Russia.
              Do you have statistics on this issue?
              Or just a liberal tryn-dzh?
              Share, pzhlst.
              For example, about the wild famine of 1891.

              My friend, type "Cannibalism in the USSR", the screenshots of the state Rosarchives of the Russian Federation will open. And count, count.
              It’s hard for me to read this, it’s impossible hard.
          3. revnagan
            revnagan 12 November 2017 12: 52 New
            +3
            Quote: Olgovich
            The first cannibals under the new government appeared not in 1921 in the Volga region, but in St. Petersburg that fall.
            In RI, they were not.

            Well, how do I like to take a liberalist by the thick, greasy nape, and poke his nose into his own cow’s flat.
            https://topwar.ru/23913-kak-zhilos-krestyanam-v-c
            arskoy-rossii-analitika-i-fakty.html
            And one more thing.
            http://comrade-kirill.livejournal.com/58766.html
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 12 November 2017 13: 32 New
              +2
              Quote: revnagan
              Well, how do I like to take a liberalist by the thick, greasy nape, and poke his nose into his own cow’s flat.

              I read: cannibalism and corpse-eating in RI-WAS NOT.
              Under the Bolsheviks, it was: for the first time in 1918, then in 21-22, 32-33, 47 years. (Http://new.rusarchives.ru/publication/hunger
              -ussr / 1933_15.shtml-such DOCUMENTS-sea!) THREE periods for 25 years !!!
              Once again, comrade regnavan: In RUSSIA, this has never happened!
              PS Who is in the cake? lol
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 12 November 2017 14: 51 New
                +2
                Quote: Olgovich
                I read: cannibalism and corpse-eating in RI-WAS NOT.

                What do you want to say, Mr. lover of speculation, fresh or with a sweetheart?
                You are a speculator.
                You will deny the same thing, everything was decorously honorable and noble in the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th?
                http://skaramanga-1972.livejournal.com/329729.htm
                l
                And will you even deny it?
                A source:

                Vagin, Vsevolod Ivanovich (1823-1900).
                Historical information on the activities of Count M. M. Speranskago in Siberia, from 1819 to 1822 [Text] / Collected by V. Vagin. - St. Petersburg: in Type. 2 offices of the Own E. I. Chancellery, 1872, p. 39
                When I say and repeat many times that the peasantry of the empire lived a wretched life, and the peasants themselves were slaughtered, dark and superstitious, I do not say this from the desire to "pour slops" on the peasants, because they did not know another life, and in this their fault, but in order for you to feel the wretchedness of that tsarist Russia, a country where it could not be otherwise. Here is more evidence for you - human sacrifice (!) And cannibalism, and one episode refers to 1883.
                A source:

                Shcheglov, Ivan Vasilievich (1855-1884).
                Chronological list of the most important data from the history of Siberia. 1032-1882 / Comp. I.V. Scheglov; Ed. East Siberian Dep. Rus geo Islands ed. tsp Sep. IN AND. Vagina. - Irkutsk, 1883. - 779 p .; 21
                http://skaramanga-1972.livejournal.com/332586.htm
                l
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 November 2017 13: 07 New
                  0
                  Quote: badens1111
                  You will deny the same thing, everything was decorously honorable and noble in the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th?
                  http://skaramanga-1972.livejournal.com/329729.htm
                  l
                  And will you even deny it?
                  A source:
                  Vagin, Vsevolod Ivanovich (1823-1900).

                  Aren't you ashamed, comrade biden? In Indonesia, there are still cannibal tribes, in your opinion, this is the same as mass cannibalism 21-22, 32-33, 47 years in the center of EUROPE in the middle of the 20th century ?! fool
                  Bring for the same period (25 years), screenshots of documents of mass cannibalism in the Republic of Ingushetia from 1893 to 1917! You can not? You can not.
                  Bye!
  6. Serge72
    Serge72 12 November 2017 08: 59 New
    22
    The economic power of the Russian Empire is unacceptably exaggerated.

    No, they’re more likely to be appreciated.
    In February 1917, due to the aggravated crisis in railway traffic, bread ended in the capital of the empire, in Petrograd.

    That's just it, that in the 3rd year (!!!) of the war, the rear lived in peacetime. And only interruptions with bread in the capital (while for example delegates who arrived in Pskov marveled at the different types of bread displayed in store windows and abundance in general) and led to some discontent that triggered a chain reaction and was used by n-forces .
    This is despite the fact that the countries of the Fourth Union were approaching HUNGER. Metal door handles in Austria and Germany were turned.
    The fact that the rear lived in peacetime and introduced food cards only in the capitals - and speaks of the economic strength of the state. But transport is an eternal Russian misfortune. It is a pity that the railway were not militarized - like the enemies.
    One-sided material is presented, what else to say
    1. Seamaster
      Seamaster 12 November 2017 10: 26 New
      +2
      delegates who arrived in Pskov marveled at the different types of bread displayed in store windows and abundance in general)
      =================================================
      ==========================
      You, my friend, are reading something, WHAT are you writing?
      And why are these PSKOVSKYs surprised at the presence of bread in Petrograd?
      Just the same Soviet citizen in 1970 in Paris.
      If they were surprised, then that means they didn’t have it?
      1. Serge72
        Serge72 12 November 2017 13: 02 New
        17
        You, my friend, are reading something, WHAT are you writing?
        And why are these PSKOVSKYs surprised at the presence of bread in Petrograd?

        You probably do not understand.
        The Duma delegates arrived in Pskov - on the issue of the abdication of the king.
        And marveled at abundance in Pskov.
        Unlike PETROGRAD from which they arrived.
        What's not clear?
        The hinterland was bursting with food, and artificially created interruptions in the capitals. That's all
  7. badens1111
    badens1111 12 November 2017 10: 08 New
    +7
    Quote: Olgovich
    describing the historical situation of the revolution in this way, the author initially puts himself in a ridiculous position

    Someone about what Olgovich is cuckolding about ... he crams something about what the author did not say. The author describes the process in the Empire that led to shocks, and olgovich again cuckolding about something only he knows ..
    Quote: Olgovich
    And only in Russia, the Bolsheviks spoke out for the defeat of the country under the aggression of foreign invaders, cynically speculating on the inevitable difficulties of the war: the worse, the better.

    Olgovich .. yes, finally go to school to stop flogging nonsense. FEBRUARY demolished the Empire, February is by no means the Bolsheviks, will it ever reach you?
    Quote: Olgovich
    Stalin., Knowing the situation, t.s. exhausted, interrupted all potential troublemakers — he already knew HOW it was dangerous in the war, and could anyone imagine criticism and insults of him and his actions in the Supreme Council in the press?

    Here is Stalin., Realizing that there are people like Olgovich, he made the only one of all possible decisions, he simply tore off the heads of every fifth column. And the difference between World War I and World War II, and for us the Great Patriotic War, is very big, but it doesn’t reach Olgovich.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 12 November 2017 11: 33 New
      +4
      Quote: badens1111
      Who is what Olgovich is talking about ... to him about what happened BEFORE the war, uh

      Read the ARTICLE, the first paragraph is about REVOLUTION, and it was during the war, my friend!
      Quote: badens1111
      Olgovich .. yes, finally go to school to stop flogging nonsense. FEBRUARY demolished the Empire, February is by no means the Bolsheviks, will it ever reach you?

      Flood, comrade baden! I wrote about the CRIMINAL ANTI-STATE activity of the Bolsheviks from the BEGINNING of the war! What about you? fool Refute my statement.
      By the way, February, according to the LEADER, committed proletariat under the leadership of the Bolsheviks ("Cr. KU lol .. and. VKPBE ", 1937). Or are you against .... Leaders ?! belay Well, nothing sacred ..... request lol
      Quote: badens1111
      И the difference between world 1 and 2, and for us the Great Patriotic War is very large,but it doesn’t reach the Olgovichi.

      .
      PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA PUTIN V.V .:
      How the Second World War differs from the First, in fact, is unclear. There really is no difference.

      I fully support the President of Russia and proud that we share the same beliefs.
      A miserable bunch of losers losers who disagree with the President is ridiculous! Are you my friend? hi lol
      1. Seamaster
        Seamaster 12 November 2017 11: 52 New
        +1
        Actually, an article about the Russian economy, and you have something about Putin.
        It’s clear that "the cat left the kittens - Putin is to blame."
        Of the libs will be, or victims of the exam?
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 12 November 2017 13: 54 New
          +2
          Quote: Seamaster
          Actually, an article about the Russian economy, and you have something about Putin.
          It’s clear that "the cat left the kittens - Putin is to blame."
          Of the libs will be, or victims of the exam?

          Actually, I answered Comrade. Baden, not you, to his question.
      2. badens1111
        badens1111 12 November 2017 11: 57 New
        +4
        Quote: Olgovich
        Read the ARTICLE, the first paragraph is about REVOLUTION, and it was during the war, my friend!

        Well, READ and not engage in speculation, an article about what led to the revolution, and not about the revolution itself.
        Quote: Olgovich
        I wrote about the CRIMINAL ANTI-STATE activity of the Bolsheviks from the BEGINNING of the war!

        You wrote nonsense, that there you do not want to tell the world about the criminal activity of the Cadets, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Guchkovs and other Kerensky people?
        Quote: Olgovich
        I fully support the President of Russia and I am proud that we share the same beliefs.

        Yes, even bruise my forehead, what sadness is it to me? The question is, what about Putin in the article or about the mediocrity of Tsar Nicholas 2, who allowed the collapse of the country?
        What a Uriapatriot from Moldova ... it’s better for us to tell us how things are going in Moldova, where the president is recorded in inadequate for a couple of hours, and tell tales not about Russia.
        Quote: Olgovich
        A miserable bunch of losers losers who disagree with the President is ridiculous!

        In this miserable bunch, you and your kind.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 12 November 2017 14: 02 New
          +3
          Quote: badens1111
          Well, READ and do not speculate, article

          I bring an ARTICLE, comrade Baden, FOLLOW SAME:
          On the one hand, history teaches us that in 1917 a social revolution took place in the Russian Empire, caused by the plight of workers and peasants.

          I oppose this statement of the author. All-in article.
          Quote: badens1111
          You wrote nonsense

          He wrote the TRUTH about the anti-Russian activity of the Bolsheviks in the Second World War: the history of the VKPBE-in help! yes
          Quote: badens1111
          Yes, even bruise my forehead, then what sadness is it to me?

          You write about the difference in the Second World War and Second World War. Putin and I do not agree. You dragged the "difference" into the discussion of the article.
  8. alekc75
    alekc75 12 November 2017 10: 09 New
    +1
    and the size of the country ??? is it to Spain or Italy, how long does it take to bring grain from Siberia to the center?
    1. Seamaster
      Seamaster 12 November 2017 10: 49 New
      +6
      Absolutely.
      The paralysis of the LATE imperial power is explained by the paralysis of the state administration system and, in particular, the paralysis of the transport system.
      And this is in conditions of war.
  9. Seamaster
    Seamaster 12 November 2017 11: 13 New
    11
    The economic power of the state can be estimated by the armament of its army.
    What we see in Russia in 1914.
    1. Shooting: licensed revolver, half-licensed rifle, no light machine guns at all, easel maxims and colts licensed.
    Even licensed rifles and machine guns are few, rifles are bought all over the world, even in Japan and Chile - read Fedorov’s memoirs.
    Fedorov’s rifle, like Leonardo da Vinci’s helicopter, is not produced (a hundred pieces do not count).
    2. Artillery: a three-inch wide-open - licensed degraded copy of the French 75-graph paper of 1897. Ammunition - SHrapnel ONLY. Artillery caliber above 100 mm - only imported, and it is almost there.
    3. Aviation: its not, as there are no motors. They collect on the knee something from rags and French engines. Muromets is a wrecking project. There are no combat qualities (speed 120 km / h, but there are velvet chairs and bronze swimmers), but there are 4 scarce engines. This means that in Russia there are 4 less fighters.
    4. Their tanks appeared only under the Bolsheviks. Armored cars - English. In Russia, the received chassis was only sheathed with cast iron.
    5. The fleet. If something was built, then 3 times longer than that of competitors, and 3 times more expensive. In combat qualities they lagged behind the West by 10-15 years.
    ONE "Goeben" drove with pissed rags 5 armadillos and 3 dreadnought of the Black Sea Fleet under the command of ADMIRAL Kolchak. Unhindered shelling Odessa, Novorossiys, Kerch, and even the tsar’s summer cottage on the South Coast.
    6. Radio and electrical engineering - TOTALLY NOTHING !!!!
    7. Chemistry - NOTHING AT ALL !!!
    I do not gloat the foregoing. For me, this is also the tragedy of my country.
    But we must clearly understand with what Lenin "took" Russia.
    1. 27091965
      27091965 12 November 2017 12: 09 New
      +1
      Quote: Seamaster
      ONE "Goeben" drove with pissed rags 5 armadillos and 3 dreadnought of the Black Sea Fleet under the command of ADMIRAL Kolchak. Unhindered shelling Odessa, Novorossiys, Kerch and even the tsar’s summer house in the South Coast


      You are not much wrong. In a briefly temporary collision, yes the Goeben launcher had an advantage due to speed. With a long battle, he had little chance of winning.
      1. Seamaster
        Seamaster 12 November 2017 13: 38 New
        +1
        Well, if all 8 Black Sea battleships will pile together on one square mile, in the middle - “Goeben” and ask him to stall, it will be difficult for him to fight back, I agree.
        But alas, this does not happen in war.
        And here also “Mary” blew up.
        And Kolchak got away with it.
        But after the explosion of “Novorossiysk” the entire naval elite was dispersed, including the commander in chief.
        Well, if everything gets away with it, then why not start a revolution?
        This is me about the behavior of the generals in February 1917.
    2. Gopnik
      Gopnik 12 November 2017 22: 38 New
      +5
      Well, bullshit ...

      Quote: Seamaster
      Shooting: licensed revolver, half-licensed rifle, no machine guns at all, easel maxims and colts licensed.


      And what is wrong with the production of weapons at domestic enterprises, in the creation of which foreign developers took part ??? It is necessary to release the best, and not the "right origin."

      Quote: Seamaster
      Even licensed rifles and machine guns are few


      Few, the concept is relative. Others in 1914 have the same or even less

      Quote: Seamaster
      three-inch PR is a licensed degraded copy of the French 75-graph paper of 1897.


      It is not.

      Quote: Seamaster
      Ammunition - SHrapnel ONLY.


      This is not true. And grenades

      Quote: Seamaster
      Artillery caliber above 100 mm - only imported, and it is almost there.


      This is not true. She is. And domestic production.

      Quote: Seamaster
      Muromets is a wrecking project. There are no combat qualities (speed is 120 km / h, but there are velvet chairs and bronze swimmers),


      Do many planes have higher speeds in 1914? And greatly velvet chairs and bronze spittins reduce combat characteristics? I understand that a Komsomol member should make love in a gas mask and in a hammock, but still?

      Quote: Seamaster
      This means that in Russia there are 4 less fighters.


      What specific fighters in 1914?

      Quote: Seamaster
      Their tanks appeared only under the Bolsheviks.


      And who in 1914 had "their tanks"?

      Quote: Seamaster
      Armored cars - English. In Russia, the received chassis was only sheathed with cast iron.


      There were some. And sheathed with armor steel, not iron.

      Quote: Seamaster
      ONE "Goeben" drove 5 armadillos and 3 dreadnought of the Black Sea Fleet with pissed rags


      Everything is exactly the opposite. You are not in the subject simply.

      Quote: Seamaster
      6. Radio and electrical engineering - TOTALLY NOTHING !!!!


      It is not.

      Quote: Seamaster
      7. Chemistry - NOTHING AT ALL !!!


      It is not.

      You would read something on the topic, so as not to expose yourself stupidly.
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 12 November 2017 23: 38 New
        +1
        Quote: Gopnik
        so as not to make yourself look stupid.

        Well, you didn’t hesitate to put yourself in an unsightly form. They thrashed nonsense, not a gram of knowledge ..
        Quote: Gopnik
        three-inch PR is a licensed degraded copy of the French 75-graph paper of 1897.

        Not to say that the three-inch full copy of the Schneider gun, but not the best weapon for that war.
        Russia, starting the war, for the first time in history had artillery fully brought to the state. Artillery designed to hit enemy infantry columns and cavalry lavas, consisting of several divisions. But of all these guns, only 122 mm and 152 mm howitzers could more or less effectively destroy the enemy’s earthwork.
        But there was no heavy artillery in Russia at all. Heavy artillery existed in Russia since the XV century, then it was called a siege. And Nicholas II abolished the siege artillery in 1908 - 1910. for lack of new heavy weapons, and the old, arr. 1867 g. And 1877 g., Was ordered to pass in the fortress. Our "holy" tsar planned to begin the formation of heavy artillery in 1917, and to finish in 1923, and in the gun fortresses arr. 1867 and 1877 should have been replaced in 1930.
        The organization of Russian field artillery in Russia by 1914 as a whole remained at the level of the Napoleonic Wars. In the field battery there were eight 76-mm guns arr. 1902 Starting in 1915, 6-gun batteries appeared. Https: //topwar.ru/26711-znamenitaya-trehd
        yuymovka.html
        Will you argue with that?

        Quote: Gopnik
        And who in 1914 had "their tanks"?

        No one, however, since the year 16 they have been massively built and used by England. France. Even Italy, Germany and ZERO in Russia.
        Quote: Gopnik
        There were some. And sheathed with armor steel, not iron.

        All on the chassis of foreign cars. Even the successful armored car Mgerova and he was not able to run in series.
        Quote: Gopnik
        Radio and electrical engineering - TOTALLY NOTHING !!!!
        It is not.

        This is just so, it is enough to look at the saturation of the communications means of the armies of the Allies, Germany and the Russian army, a comparison is not in our favor.
        Quote: Gopnik
        It is not.

        And this is exactly the same, it was not good with this case in RI.
        1. Gopnik
          Gopnik 13 November 2017 00: 31 New
          +2
          Quote: badens1111
          Not to say that the three-inch full copy of the Schneider gun


          Oh how, i.e. I'm right, thanks for the favor. Perhaps not the best, but which field gun of 75-77 mm was Lenin-Stalin ordered to consider the best in the WWI?

          Quote: badens1111
          Artillery designed to hit enemy infantry columns and cavalry lavas, consisting of several divisions.


          The trouble is that in WWII the basis of the field artillery of the Red Army was three-inch - the most massive weapon of the USSR. Those. in WWI, a three-inch is bad, but for WWII you get hurt. Well, logical.

          Quote: badens1111
          of all these guns, only 122 mm and 152 mm howitzers


          Oh how. Those. in Russia, it turns out, were there guns of caliber more than 100 mm? Well, who would have thought ...

          Quote: badens1111
          Will you argue with that?


          And why should I argue with this, if this confirms what I wrote ???

          Quote: badens1111
          No one, however, since the year 16 they have been massively built and used by England. France. Even Italy, Germany and ZERO in Russia.


          Tovarisch, it was about 1914, do not "however." And many countries in 1916 used tanks? A lot in 1917? In 1918 Italy built a couple of tanks, Germany a couple of dozen, the United States a few dozen. Soviet Russia in 1918 did not build or use tanks. All this testifies to the backwardness of the Russian Empire (which ceased to exist in early 1917) in 1914. The logic is enchanting. Leninsky, straight.

          Quote: badens1111
          Everything on the chassis of foreign cars


          Not all.

          Quote: badens1111
          This is exactly so.


          No, it is not. Before the war, in 1914, there were factories in RI that produced chemical, radio, and electromechanical products.

          In general, learn the materiel, comrade, so that nonsense does not fall out of you, as if from a cow.
          1. Sweetheart
            Sweetheart 27 June 2018 23: 15 New
            0
            Quote: Gopnik
            In general, learn materiel

            So you don’t know it, study the materiel, see what shortage of heavy guns was in the Republic of Ingushetia, and then if you have enough knowledge, study the second thing, which is the lack of heavy artillery in the army of the Republic of Ingushetia ... Not to mention the lack of shells and other things. .
            Quote: Gopnik
            Before the war, in 1914, there were factories in RI that produced chemical, radio, and electromechanical products.

            yes yes .. believe .. were .. there was no sense.
            Quote: Gopnik
            Tovarisch, it was about 1914, do not "however." And many countries in 1916 used tanks? A lot in 1917? In 1918 Italy built a couple of tanks, Germany a couple of dozen, the United States a few dozen. Soviet Russia in 1918 did not build or use tanks. All this testifies to the backwardness of the Russian Empire (which ceased to exist in early 1917) in 1914. The logic is enchanting. Leninsky, straight.

            В
            Quote: Gopnik
            Tovarisch, it was about 1914, do not "however." And many countries in 1916 used tanks? A lot in 1917? In 1918 Italy built a couple of tanks, Germany a couple of dozen, the United States a few dozen. Soviet Russia in 1918 did not build or use tanks. All this testifies to the backwardness of the Russian Empire (which ceased to exist in early 1917) in 1914. The logic is enchanting. Leninsky, straight.
            You would have to change your ... pathologically deceiving. Anti-Soviet logic. R-TANKOV did not release, the RSFSR was able to arrange repair and restoration of trophies, and then the release of its samples.
      2. Seamaster
        Seamaster 13 November 2017 09: 50 New
        +1
        And why do you certainly attribute all my data to 1914. "Old" Russia ended in 1917.
        And in 1917, the Russian army "lived" on imported rifle (of course, not 100%), on imported aircraft engines, on imported armored cars, on imported gunpowder and chemicals, on the radio stations ONLY Telefunken and Marconi, about tanks - it’s clear.
        And the fact that others had the same shooters was not enough, it was not Russia that sent rifles, pistols and machine guns to the USA, Japan, Denmark and Chile, but quite the contrary. So, in these countries this good was enough?
        1. Gopnik
          Gopnik 13 November 2017 11: 14 New
          +1
          Quote: Seamaster
          And why do you certainly attribute all my data to 1914.


          Eeee, comrade, are you all right with your head ??? You yourself deigned to write
          Quote: Seamaster
          What we see in Russia in 1914.


          Quote: Seamaster
          And the fact that others had the same shooters was not enough, it was not Russia that sent rifles, pistols and machine guns to the USA, Japan, Denmark and Chile, but quite the contrary. So, in these countries this good was enough?


          It is enchantingly simple. Well, that’s why it’s not Leninist, that illiterate fool of balls, it’s even a shame for the country. Tovarisch, Denmark and Chile did not participate in the war, the United States did not participate until the spring of 1917, and in fact until the fall, Japan practically did not participate, limiting itself, essentially, to the siege of Qingdao. Therefore, they had enough, yes. But England participated, and the very same Japan and the USA delivered the rifle to her.
  10. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 12 November 2017 12: 00 New
    +4
    In general, the article is much more balanced, in general, I rather liked it, rather than the other way around :))))
    In 1911–1917, three more lightweight construction battleships of the “Empress Maria” type were built for the Black Sea Fleet.

    They were not lightweight construction :)))) I would even say that they were reinforced construction, because they carried the best armor protection at the expense of speed. And, by the way, it’s a pity - if they had been built according to the Sevastopol type, then they could have caught the Goeben.
    But everything is relative. The British "Dreadnought", having committed a naval revolution and spawned a "dreadnought race", was laid down in 1905 and launched in 1906.

    Yes, everything is known by comparison, although in truth, the delay in the construction of Sevastopol is not a technical issue, but a matter of allocating funds that were almost not allocated for the first two years of construction
    In 1909, another revolution in naval affairs occurred - the battleship Orion was laid, which gave the name to the series of ships of the same name (three more were laid down in 1910). Thus began the era of superdreadnoughts, to which Russian battleships such as Sevastopol and Empress Maria were late.

    In fact, the 343-mm battleships, contrary to popular belief, did not become a revolution in proofreading. In fact, this was the case - Russians, Germans and British, in the first decade of the 20th century understood that the old 305-mm guns were no longer so hot and began to create new ones with increased power and a long barrel. The Russians and Germans made excellent guns, but the British ... didn’t succeed, due to a very primitive design. As a result, in order to compete with the Germans on equal terms, the British were forced to switch to a larger caliber. In general, their 343-mm "superdreadnoughts" did not have decisive advantages over the Kenigs and Kaisers.
    In fact, the era of superdreadnoughts came later, with the advent of 381 mm guns
    1. 27091965
      27091965 12 November 2017 12: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      In fact, the 343-mm battleships, contrary to popular belief, did not become a revolution in proofreading. In fact, this was the case - Russians, Germans and British, in the first decade of the 20th century understood that the old 305-mm guns were no longer so hot and began to create new ones with increased power and a long barrel.


      I’ll add a little to your comment. 343 mm guns, more precisely 330 mm guns could appear earlier. In 1902, the United States considered a project of an armored cruiser, later a linear armed 6-330 mm and 6-254 mm guns in three-gun towers. The project was considered ambitious, requiring new technical development and testing, and was eventually rejected.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 12 November 2017 14: 32 New
        +1
        Quote: 27091965i
        I’ll add a little to your comment. 343 mm guns, more precisely 330 mm guns could appear earlier.

        Well, strictly speaking, they appeared earlier - on the Admiral and Royal Sovereigns :))))) And yes, of course, I perfectly understand what you mean. And I will be grateful for the information on the American cruiser that you mentioned - I hear about it for the first time hi
        1. 27091965
          27091965 12 November 2017 15: 10 New
          +1
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Well, strictly speaking, they appeared earlier - on the Admiral and Royal Sovereigns:


          I agree with you, but in the USA they considered installing these guns in terms of creating a high-speed armored compound for reconnaissance and attacking the head and tail (coverage) of the column of enemy ships.

          And I will be grateful for the information on the American cruiser that you mentioned - I hear about it for the first time


          I’ll finish editing in ten days, a long period from 1888 to 1904, I have to collect too much into one topic from different years of specialized publications of that time on armor, shells, and tactical views. When I do, I can send it to your mail.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 12 November 2017 15: 21 New
            +1
            Quote: 27091965i
            When I do, I can send it to your mail.

            Thank you so much!
            1. 27091965
              27091965 12 November 2017 15: 47 New
              +1
              The BrKr scheme was sent to you by mail, the rest upon completion of work.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 12 November 2017 22: 39 New
                +2
                Got:))) drinks Well, these Americans are funny :))
    2. Snakebyte
      Snakebyte 12 November 2017 13: 27 New
      +2
      Somehow it’s not customary to mention that in Russian dreadnoughts there was one — a corps and guns. The rest is, at best, collected in Russia at joint ventures with foreigners, mainly import. And any kind of small things, like turret balls, but you can’t build a ship without them.
      That is why they didn’t finish building the Ishmaels - they didn’t have time to deliver the necessary small things before the war, and the battleships, ready for 50-80%, eventually went for scrapping.
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 12 November 2017 14: 15 New
        +1
        The guns are also “joint”, but they are also earlier “joint”, to one degree or another.
      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 12 November 2017 14: 28 New
        +3
        Quote: Snakebyte
        Somehow it’s not customary to mention that in Russian dreadnoughts it was - a corps and guns

        ??
        Quote: Snakebyte
        The rest is, at best, collected in Russia at joint ventures with foreigners, mainly import.

        Shipbuilding steel was supplied by the Kulebak factory and the Prodamet association; towers - Metal and Putilovsky plants; cellar elevators and aerial refrigeration systems - G.A. Lessner plant; electrical equipment - factories "Duflon, Konstantinovich and Co.", "Simmens and Shukkert", "Volta", "General Electricity Company"; telephones and fire control devices - plants of Geisler and Erickson; anchor and steering devices - Nizhniy Novgorod Sormovo plant; The Franco-Russian plant manufactured steam turbines, boilers, auxiliary mechanisms for the battleships under construction at the Admiralty Plant according to the design documentation of the Baltic Plant, which, in turn, produced power equipment for battleships of its own construction.
        Of course, they used foreign help, the same turbines were designed with the help of John Brown. Well, it was possible to take advantage of German experience, the Germans, not yet having turbine production, did not go anywhere and installed steam engines on the Ostfriesland laughing But - they supported the domestic manufacturer laughing
        In general, in your phrase
        Quote: Snakebyte
        at best collected in Russia at joint ventures with foreigners

        a very big forgery - we had a bunch of enterprises with foreign capital. But this did not mean at all that the foreigners were giving us some of their know-how. An example is the same Geisler and K is a branch of a foreign company, but the employees are exclusively ours, the development of the MSL Geisler is 100% Russian. Those. the participation of foreign capital does not mean myd in enlightened west :)
        Quote: Snakebyte
        That is why they didn’t finish building the Ishmaels - they didn’t have time to deliver the necessary small things before the war, and the battleships, ready for 50-80%, eventually went for scrapping.

        You are .... if only you would read a book about Ishmael, or something :)))) On April 15, 1917, Navarin had readiness for the corps - 50%, for armor - 2%, for mechanisms - 26,5 %, for boilers - 12,5%
        1. Snakebyte
          Snakebyte 14 November 2017 22: 40 New
          0
          A colleague, I did not expect from you, do you understand the topic?
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Shipbuilding steel was supplied by the Kulebak factory and the Prodamet association; towers - Metal and Putilovsky plants; cellar elevators and aerial refrigeration systems - G.A. Lessner plant; electrical equipment - factories "Duflon, Konstantinovich and Co.", "Simmens and Shukkert", "Volta", "General Electricity Company"; telephones and fire control devices - plants of Geisler and Erickson; anchor and steering devices - Nizhniy Novgorod Sormovo plant; The Franco-Russian plant manufactured steam turbines, boilers, auxiliary mechanisms for the battleships under construction at the Admiralty Plant according to the design documentation of the Baltic Plant, which, in turn, produced power equipment for battleships of its own construction.

          Yes, I read Skvortsova. But he does not give the percentage of "localization" of these "local" industries. For example, in Russia bearing production was completely absent. 97% of measuring instruments are imported. Can turbines be built without bearings and tachometers, and steam boilers without manometers?
          And such a situation - in many positions. So, completely my own body and guns, well, even the armor, yes, I forgot it.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Of course, they used foreign help, the same turbines were designed with the help of John Brown. Well, it was possible to take advantage of the German experience, the Germans, not yet having turbine production, did not go anywhere and installed steam engines laughing at Ostfriesland. But they supported the domestic producer

          In fact, the Germans abandoned the turbines for other reasons.
          By the time they began designing the second series dreadnoughts in Germany, shipbuilders, as well as admirals, were still not convinced of the significant advantages of steam turbine plants. Mass and size characteristics still did not differ as strikingly as it became a little later, although a clear tendency towards increasing turbine efficiency was already becoming noticeable. But the efficiency of steam reciprocating machines was constantly increasing, both due to the improvement of their own characteristics, and the improvement of the design of auxiliary mechanisms and refrigerators.

          Turbine units were not very compact, and their overall dimensions did not give a big advantage over piston machines.

          This very important reason for the Germans was supplemented by the high, in their opinion, oil consumption of turbine units in economic regimes, as well as the relatively poor maneuverability of ships with turbine units of the time, which was very dangerous for battleships.

          Based on the experience of designing Nassau dreadnoughts, German designers suggested that the fleet command go the same way — use steam-powered piston engines on coal heating for battleships, and install oil turbines on battlecruisers requiring higher speeds.

          The Maritime Authority readily agreed to this. It continued to regard coal as a substantial complement to armor protection, and furthermore, concerns about the supply of fuel to the “gluttonous” dreadnoughts in the face of the mandatory British naval blockade in the event of war were still on the table. In this case, Germany had its own coal mining industry, but there were almost no oil fields on its territory.
          https://military.wikireading.ru/33622
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          a very big forgery - we had a bunch of enterprises with foreign capital. But this did not mean at all that the foreigners were giving us some of their know-how. An example is the same Geisler and K is a branch of a foreign company, but the employees are exclusively ours, the development of the MSL Geisler is 100% Russian. Those. the participation of foreign capital does not mean myd in enlightened west :)

          Well, yes, they did not distribute, but sold, in the form of licenses. Yarrow boilers, Thornicroft nozzles, Parsons turbines. It is doubtful that they paid for licenses only for the sake of beautiful names.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          You are .... if only you would read a book about Ishmael, or something :)))) On April 15, 1917, Navarin had readiness for the corps - 50%, for armor - 2%, for mechanisms - 26,5 %, for boilers - 12,5%

          Well yes. All buildings were launched, could not equip them with equipment that depended on imports.
          Such is the "ploy of Nicholas II."
          For comparison, resource-poor Japan, which crawled out of the Middle Ages in 1868, the first armored cruiser of its own construction was put into operation in 1904, in 1912 it was already building on its own the battle cruisers of the Congo type.
  11. Flying Dutchman
    Flying Dutchman 12 November 2017 19: 40 New
    +5
    What is a developed country before l MB (1914)? A country that had engine building, auto building, tractor manufacturing, machine tool building, production of consumer goods, developed chemical, radio production, etc. The Russian Empire had nothing of this. If someone says that, they say, Sikorsky was building Ilya of Muromets, then, after all, it was built from Western components. So it is with cars and so on. Even the famous Russian three-ruler Mosin produced 75% of France! In large caliber guns and shells, Russia was completely dependent on the West. Exactly the same policy is being pursued by the current "elite" of Russia, well, except for weapons. Well ..., the weapon is the USSR it is necessary to say thank you: the current ones give little, but, fortunately, they didn’t ruin the end. Is it just that China will make Russia microelectronics? From the West, after all, it’s dangerous to receive already ... No, the Russian Empire of 1914 was a colossus with feet of clay, which is why Emperor Nicholas ll had to lose both the throne and the crown. By the way, at the expense of Nicholas ll there is nothing to blame the Bolsheviks, it was not they who threw him off, but the capitalists and the army threw him off in February 1917, and it was then that they realized that Russia was in a deadlock political and economic ...
    1. Gopnik
      Gopnik 12 November 2017 21: 11 New
      +2
      Quote: Flying Dutchman
      Even the famous Russian three-ruler Mosin produced 75% of France!


      Kabzdets ... The rest of the nonsense does not even make sense to comment ...
      1. Seamaster
        Seamaster 13 November 2017 09: 55 New
        0
        I don’t know about France, but in his youth in the Irkutsk Rifle Club, DOSAAF shot from a rifle of 1891 produced by Remington in 1916 under a cartridge of 7.62 x 54R.
  12. parma
    parma 13 November 2017 08: 48 New
    +1
    Dear author, the question is this: here you are writing, Russia did not have its own engines, aircraft and cars were produced under license, there was a low level of industrial quality. products before the revolution, and when during the Soviet era reached a high level? When did you start developing your engines? About the role of Vickers and Christie tanks, Douglas DiSi-3, BMW M-72 have not heard in the USSR? In the end, Lada (and this is much later than 1917) ... Production under a license is quite normal in world practice! The main thing that HAPPENED, or you want to say that in the USA if Stryker, Lav-25, guns 105 and 120 mm, M-240 (FN MAG in girlhood) and M-249 (FN minimi in girlhood), M-9 ( berets in girlhood) produced under license (albeit in a revised form) means that the United States is a backward country?
    1. Seamaster
      Seamaster 13 November 2017 10: 09 New
      0
      If the licensed weapon was the basis or "idea" for the further creation of their own samples - this is good. But I repeat, only as a base.
      And the "Nagan" from 1895 to 1917 in Russia remained the "Nagan" and no new short-barrels appeared.
      Rumor has it that in 1910 there was a small series of "Nagan" with a reclining drum, but not a serious production.
      So Russia without its pistol remained, and so they used a weak revolver.
      Therefore, Mausers, Colts and Browning came to Russia.
      And in the 20s, taking the ideas of Colt-1911 and Browning-1910, they made a very good TT-33 (naturally, an economical option - legs were stretched out on clothes).
      DP-27, PPD-34 were able to blind? Not ice, but no fish .....
      Dead "Christie" and "Vickers 6-ton" from the license grew in the T-34 and T-55.
      But the M9 you brought in remained Beretta-92.
      Patamushta license.
      1. Gopnik
        Gopnik 13 November 2017 11: 26 New
        +1
        Quote: Seamaster
        And the "Nagan" from 1895 to 1917 in Russia remained the "Nagan" and no new short-barrel appeared ...
        So Russia without its pistol remained, and so they used a weak revolver.

        I’ll tell you more - Nagan remained Nagan not only until 1917, but until 1945, when its release was discontinued. But the fact that for another 30 years the "licensed weak revolver" was riveted is the king’s fault, yes ...

        Quote: Seamaster
        And in the 20s, taking the ideas of Colt-1911 and Browning-1910, they made a very good TT-33 (naturally, an economical option - legs were stretched out on clothes).
        DP-27, PPD-34 were able to blind? Not ice, but no fish .....


        Funny logic. If the bullshit is made in the advanced USSR, having made, like, “a giant industrial leap, the second industrial power in the world” and all that “not, well, what do you want? Stretch your legs out of your clothes, to bezryba ...” And if you make modern weapons, but the authorship of a foreigner, in Russia, then immediately "aaaa, uuuu, backwardness! Give a revolution to make economy options for bezryba"
        1. badens1111
          badens1111 13 November 2017 11: 35 New
          +1
          Quote: Gopnik
          ahhh, oooh

          The whole point of your activity here, contrary to the obvious.
      2. parma
        parma 13 November 2017 12: 00 New
        +1
        There are quite specific examples where minor changes in the licensed version are made only taking into account local "customs" or the level of production, and in industrialized countries, the simplest example is the Bereta F-92, which the world’s lazy probably does not collect! There are options when the sample is completely redone, but again, taking into account local "customs" or the level of production, here, for example, Bofors 40mm in the USSR and the USA! It is the fact that licensed production does not show the fact of underdevelopment of production, even taking into account the changes! Take, for example, the very United States that does a lot of things under license, and let's say India and Iran (in India they collect T-90s, for example, and in Iran HK G3) ... And what about India (although this is a difficult question, it depends on spheres) and Iran are on par with the USA?
  13. yehat
    yehat 22 January 2018 17: 17 New
    0
    the era of superdreadnoughts, to which Russian battleships of the Sevastopol and Empress Maria type were late

    delirium of pure water. The Russian Empire really lagged behind in the dreadnought race, but after the war of 1905, conclusions were drawn and a fleet construction program unprecedented in scale and cost was launched, the crown of which was the battleships Izmail. They did not have time to finish building due to the fact that about half of the components were ordered abroad (they didn’t have time to stupidly), but the construction was fully funded. In fact, ships with very powerful advanced artillery were obtained, which remained relevant until the end of World War II. Sevastopol was simpler, but they were very powerful.
    Given that the battleships were created under the conditions of locked military theaters, there was no reason to talk about the late arrival of the empire.
  14. Sultanbek
    Sultanbek 27 June 2018 23: 06 New
    0
    Quote: captain
    Among the masses of Lenin fans commenting on the article, there is no understanding ...


    This concludes the thought ... The rest of verbiage