Military Review

In the forefront. Battle tactics varangi

42
In accordance with the norms of the Byzantine military manuals, before the battle, the infantry units lined up, as a rule, behind the cavalry - as a second line. At the same time, Varanga — the strike force of the imperial army — was in the vanguard in many battles and acted brilliantly at the same time.


The elite character of the Varangian Guard, providing the commander with the widest tactical possibilities, allowed to use it in battle in various variations - depending on the prevailing situation.

In 1081, at the Battle of Dyrrachia, Warangs were built on the 2 line, being at the forefront of the flank of the Byzantine army. Anna Komnina recalled how her father, Alexei I Komneny, moved the Vikings, headed by their commander Nambit, at a small distance ahead of the order of the advancing Byzantine units. This deployment is an example of an interesting tactical maneuver Alexei Comnenus. In the 1022 battle at Shegfe, the Varangians, also leading the attack, turned the Georgians to flight.

Very often, Varang was the basis of the army's combat order - implementing the basic function of heavy infantry. She performed this task in 1019 in the victorious battle of Cannes, in the battle of 1167 in Sirmium and many others.

Varanga was a reserve (often the last) in the hands of the commander. Thus, in the battle of Drastara, a reserve was formed from the Varangians, concentrated behind the heavy infantry of the Latin mercenaries. Thus, three “hares” were “killed” at once — the center of the battle formation intensified, the less reliable units of the Byzantine army were maintained and the wagon train was protected. This circumstance explains the fact that Bulgarian archaeologists found the remains of the Varangian weapons and armor.

An important task of the Varangian Guard was to protect the sovereign when he was in the army. This function was realized even in a hopeless situation - for example, during the battles of Manzikert and Miriokefale.

For protection and armament, the Varangian Guard was an excellent heavy infantry. The combat tactics of Varangi also correspond to this fact - for example, Anna Comnina noted her close formation in the battle of Dirrahii. The main fighting system of Varanga was the phalanx - the so-called. A “wall of shields” consisting of 5 and more rows. This system was particularly effective in defense. In the usual situation, the Wall of Shields could successfully withstand the attack of enemy cavalry — even a heavy one. In order to disorganize such a battle formation, the enemy brought down a hail of arrows and darts on the defending dense infantry formation. Shelling led light infantry of the enemy - as, for example, in the battle of Dirrahii.

The more close the line was, the more chances there were, both for the warrior and for the unit, to survive under the conditions of tactics and weapons used at that time. Sources portray the Vikings, who stood closely to each other - the shields of neighbors overlap by almost half (that is, there was no more than half a meter on the warrior). But such a dense system (its density was often such that it did not allow to fall killed) was kept only in the course of rapprochement with the enemy - taking a shield of darts and arrows on the shields. Having come close to the enemy, in order to wield axes and other weapons, the structure of the warangs became freer.

Fighters of the Varangian Guard since the appearance of their units have been accustomed to acting in a single system and strict discipline. This school of the Varanga was held under the leadership of the emperor-warrior - the stern Vasily II of Bulgaria. As the source noted, entering the battle, the emperor Basil, according to the rules of Byzantine tactics, squeezed the ranks of his army, as if enclosing it with a wall, closed the infantry with cavalry, light infantry with heavy ("hoplites"). Nobody was allowed to break the line. Even strong and remote warriors who won, but at the same time, contrary to orders, entered into battle with the enemy, were not honored with awards, but, on the contrary, were punished. The unbreakable military structure of Basil II considered the main guarantee of victory - he believed that only thanks to him was the Romanian army insurmountable. And when the warriors, dissatisfied with these strictness, grumbled and even sometimes insulted the basil, Basil calmly endured their mockery, reasonably and complacently replied: “You see, we would never end the war otherwise” [Psellos M. Decree. cit. C. 18].

Used dense system and the occupation of a circular defense. That is how Harald’s warriors lined up at the Battle of Stamford Bridge: “several rows in a long line - so that the flanks were touching”. Of course, Hardrada in the course of his combat career could use this construction in other conditions.

In carrying out the attack, Varangu was distinguished by a fierce first onslaught - in movement, the Varangian phalanx resembled a “steamroller”. Option phalanx, designed to attack - building a wedge or pig nose (svynfylking). There were two warriors in the 1 range of the wedge, three in the 2, five in the 3, and so on. The phalanx could line up in the form of a single wedge or several wedges (united by common rear rows). In the latter case, the first line of the wedge resembled the saw teeth. The construction made it possible to vary the area of ​​application of maximum efforts and expose the best warriors to the point of impact.

But at close range the phalanx was vulnerable to shooters - especially from the flank and rear. It was difficult to fight against the cavalry.

The Battle of Dyrrachia, despite its result, serves as an illustration of the excellent tactical skills of the Warangas: when Emperor Alexey advanced archers to fire at the Normans of Guiscar, he ordered the Varangians to step back and forth and skip the shooters, and then close the ranks and start moving forward - after how the archers will go back through their line [Komnina A. Decree. cit. C. 150]. T. o. Varanga was capable of reconfiguration and tactical maneuvers of various levels of complexity.

As the elite infantry of Varang was used in large-scale battles, in special operations, local hostilities. The small units of the Varangian Guard, which were solving local tactical tasks, were used in Bulgaria, and since 1034 (arrival of Harald), its fighters effectively acted on the sea and carried out police functions in the Eastern Mediterranean. In the sea battle, the Varangians acted as follows. Lining up opposite each other, the ships grappled with each other, and the boarding battle began. But before you start melee combat, the enemy crumbled with a hail of arrows and darts. In order to avoid casualties at this stage of the battle, free warriors covered the rowers with shields. Before the collision with the warriors of the enemy, the Varyag shields were closed so tightly that there was “no crack” between the latter.

A senior army officer and veteran of the Sicilian campaign of Byzantium K. Kekavmen separated the infantry units consisting of the Rus and the Varangian detachments performing the tasks of the marines. The latter conducted amphibious operations, lightning raids, landed mobile groups in the bay and on the beaches.

Varangians and siege actions were effectively conducted. In this regard, the Harald fighters especially distinguished themselves in Sicily. Sources point out that in 1035 the Varangs took the Armenian fort of Berkri, and in 1068 they took the citadel of Hirapolis. The campaign of Emperor John II Comnenus in Asia Minor led to the taking of 30 fortresses and cities - and much of the credit for achieving this result belonged to the warrior sappers.

The traditional quality of the Varyags was mobility. Although they were not natural horsemen, they actively used captured horses. One of the features of the Varangian Guard was increased operational mobility - due to the use of trophy horse (For more details, see the articles on the battle route of Varangi.). But the Vikings used horses only for movement - and before the fight they dismounted. T. o. Varanga is a driving infantry, the prototype of the driving infantry of the New Time - dragoons. Indeed, under the dragoons initially just understood infantry, temporarily, to solve the relevant tasks, mounted on horses. Arriving at the battlefield on horseback, the dragoons initially dismounted for the fight. By the way, the name "dragoon" is derived from the term "dragon" - the already mentioned cavalry standard. An interesting analogy again arises. In some cases, the lizards also arrived at their destination on horseback — in order to give the enemy a decisive battle at the right moment. A vivid illustration is the 1000 campaign of the year.

The scheme of action of Varangi in a field battle was as follows.

In a defensive battle, the Varangian phalanx in the form of the “Wall of Shields” was the basis of the military construction of the Byzantine army. The “wall of shields” made it possible to resist the enemy’s rifle attack, as well as to act with a spear or sword. If necessary, such a system could take and all-round defense.

In the forefront. Battle tactics varangi
The image of the Varyag. Carving on ivory box. Shows the total length of the ax - equal to human growth.

In the offensive battle of the phalanx (under the cover of shield protection) metal spears to the enemy and (or) moved to the last - in order to engage in close combat. If a shield remained in the warrior’s hand, the varang acted with a sword or with a spear, or (which is much more effective) the shield was thrown backwards, and the fighter was wielding an ax. The system had the shape of a geometric shape (and during the rapid attack a wedge was most often used).

In field combat, Varang solved various tasks — was a private or general reserve (under Draster and Eski-Zagre), implemented a strike function (under Shegfe and Dyrrahii), and was the basis of battle order (under Sirmio and Cannes). It manifested itself during sieges, in the defense of fortresses and cities, acting as a marines.

Thus, the Byzantine Varang is a universal mobile heavy infantry, which, if necessary, could also solve special tasks.
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  1. Korsar4
    Korsar4 8 November 2017 07: 03 New
    15
    Very well. You read articles from the cycle - you meet an old acquaintance.
    1. Cat
      Cat 8 November 2017 21: 34 New
      +5
      There’s nothing to add. It remains to say thanks to the author!
      Sadness is that the cycle is over.
      1. OAV09081974
        8 November 2017 22: 06 New
        19
        Thank you dear Kotische and all colleagues for the high appreciation and kind word!
        The cycle is not over yet
        There are still articles about the security and police service of the Varangian Guard and its combat path
        Best regards hi
        1. Cat
          Cat 9 November 2017 04: 33 New
          +4
          Gip, gip Ur !!!
          Dear Aleksey, if everything develops by November 10, then there is nothing to dream about the best gift !!!
          Thanks a lot in advance!
          Sincerely, Kitty.
          1. OAV09081974
            9 November 2017 08: 25 New
            18
            not 10, but a little later
            Deployment is referred in depth)
            Thank you very much for the enthusiasm))
            Best regards
            Alexey
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 8 November 2017 07: 33 New
    16
    Good review, great article ..
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 8 November 2017 08: 12 New
      17
      Yes, Oleinikov’s work is distinguished by a good manner of presentation, and a substantial side.
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 8 November 2017 13: 08 New
        14
        I will join.
        T. about. Varanga was capable of rebuilding and tactical maneuvers of various difficulty levels.

        I learned a lot of new things. thank! hi
  3. Lieutenant Teterin
    Lieutenant Teterin 8 November 2017 10: 00 New
    17
    Great and very informative article! An interesting fact is that in the field of military art, Byzantium clearly used the entire body of previously accumulated knowledge, since the Byzantine "wall of shields", judging by the description, is more reminiscent of the hoplite phalanx or the monolithic system of legionary cohorts of the late Roman army.
    The author - my sincere gratitude for the work done! hi
  4. Seal
    Seal 9 November 2017 15: 22 New
    +2
    Anna Komnina recalled how her father Alexei I Komnin moved the Varangians

    She could only “remember” someone else’s stories, right?
    In naval combat, the Varangians acted as follows. Lining up opposite each other, the ships interlocked and a boarding battle began.

    Is it like the warring parties that agreed among themselves on the procedure for conducting a "sea battle"? Like, we honestly agree that we will first calmly line up opposite each other, then we will mate with each other and begin a boarding battle? And why didn’t they even agree to go ashore and wage the entire "sea battle" on the shore? And do not specify, but how did they agree to “mate” - with sides or noses?
    The more closed the system was, the more chances there were, both for the warrior and for the unit, to survive under the conditions of tactics and weapons used at that time.

    Sorry, but where are your (well, not specifically yours, but “pros-storytellers” writing about “ancient battles”) throwing guns - well, are there “catypults” or “ballista” or what else? After all, the “pros-strangers” even the notorious “Tatar-Mongols” (or Mongol-Tatars ??) in a dark winter Russian forest on a forest road - they even “handed” catapults for the “execution” of the Evpatiya Kolovrat detachment. And here, like, all opponents know in advance that there are "varangians" who will surely be built in a tight-dense formation, and for some reason not one of the opponents realizes to put against them not "archers" and "spear throwers", but "ballista" or " catapults. " Although the opponents are by no means the wild nomads of the "Tatar-Mongols" (or Mongol-Tatars) ??.
    he ordered the Vikings to step left and right and skip the shooters
    Well, yes, he “ordered” a type of “right-left-left-and-right” and they instantly “left and right”. And physically, how do you imagine this? How the ranks of the varangs can quickly part "left-right" if they (the varanga) stood so closely that:
    the neighbors' shields overlap by almost half (i.e., the warrior on the front accounted for no more than half a meter). But such a tight formation (its density was often such that it did not allow the dead to fall)

    ??? No, of course, what you can’t do for the sake of the emperor. Or commissioner. Like in a joke:
    - Commissioner, the cartridges are over !!!!
    --- But you are a communist !!!
    - .... and again sharpened the machine gun !!!
    Did you go to the army in boxes?
    The latter carried out landing operations, lightning raids, landed mobile groups in bays and beaches. The traditional quality of the Varangians was mobility. Although they were not natural equestrians, they actively used trophy horses. One of the features of the Varangian Guard was increased operational mobility - through the use of trophy horse-drawn

    Should we assume that the Varangians landed mobile groups in bays and on the beaches, where trophy horses had already been prepared (assembled, saddled, watered and fed) in advance for mobility for them?
    By the way, with lightning speed - how is it? Do you have that, ancient rowing ships such as modern hovercraft - at a speed of 40 knots, not afraid of underwater reefs ??? Sorry, but even the “Jeyran” to go ashore need a gently sloping beach without boulders.
    The image of the Varyag. Carving on ivory box. Shows the total length of the ax - equal to human growth.
    Why Varangian? Tacitus left a classic description of the appearance of the Germans: "Rigid blue eyes, brown hair, tall bodies ... grow up with such a physique and a camp that amaze us." In the hands of the German classic battle ax "barbarian".
    In an offensive battle, the phalanx (under the cover of a shield defense) threw spears at the enemy

    Have you tried to throw a spear without a start? Try and then share the results.

    But at close range the phalanx was vulnerable to shooters - especially from the flank and rear. It was difficult to fight against the cavalry.

    It’s strange. The Spanish third with great success fought against the cavalry. The Swiss, however, too. As they say the battle of Morgarten became one of the first battles in medieval history, where the infantry won a landslide victory over heavily armed horse knights.
    1. soldier
      soldier 9 November 2017 17: 37 New
      16
      Anna Komnina recalled how her father Alexei I Komnin moved the Varangians
      She could only “remember” someone else’s stories, right?

      No not like this. She was an OWNER. I saw what I wrote about.
      Why Varangian

      Because this image is so characterized. This is a pictorial source.
      The Spanish third with great success fought against the cavalry. The Swiss, however, too. As they say, the battle of Morgarten was one of the first battles in medieval history, where the infantry won a landslide victory over heavily armed horse knights.

      Varanga also defeated the Norman cavalry. And as I understand it, there will be more about this.
      Well, the rest of the contents of this huge obscure post, even difficult to comment hi
      1. Seal
        Seal 10 November 2017 11: 51 New
        +2
        Quote: soldier
        Well, the rest of the contents of this huge obscure post, even difficult to comment

        Apparently, the opponent considers his comments "multi-intelligible." Let's see if this is so. Well, let's just start with a masterpiece of intelligibility in a soldier's way.
        No not like this. She was an OWNER. I saw what I wrote about.

        Firstly, the character on behalf of whom the book "Aleksiada" was written (why I say so because no one saw the original, therefore it is impossible to even determine whether the manuscript was written in female or nevertheless male handwriting, with which the book was allegedly then printed ), namely, the character "Anna Komnina" - nowhere does she declare that she personally witnessed any battle. hi
        Secondly. But this is not the funniest thing yet. The funny thing is that my “intelligible opponent” managed to declare Anna Komnina an eyewitness to the battle of Dirrachia laughing laughing laughing
        But according to the traditional version of history, this battle took place (the date, by the way, is also indicated by the author of the article) in 1081, and Anna Komnina was born in 1083. That is, the “plausibility” of my opponent, in his opinion, apparently consists in declaring someone an eyewitness (even OWNER - this word is written in flashy capital letters) of the event that took place two years before the birth of an eyewitness. fool
        Another "multi-intelligibility":
        Because this image is so characterized. This is a pictorial source.
        That is, my opponent admits that the image can be anyone, but since it is signed as an image of a varanga, he takes it for an image of a varanga. And if they change the inscription to "This is an image of a Chinese" - what will my opponent do? Will recognize the image by the Chinese, right?
        Yes, so as not to think that I was joking about the Chinese, I will give you a specific example, specifically, how they play signatures to images.
        Take this picture exhibited at the Hermitage.
        Daniel Schwartz. Family portrait. (Hermitage)
        The painting was painted in 1654, 1664 or 1672. Exhibited under the names:
        1) “The Polish king with the family” (1755),
        2) "Ketler, the last duke of Courland" (1818),
        3) The Amusing Court of the Polish Tycoon (1911),
        4) “Group portrait noble Tatar with family ”(1931),
        5) “Portrait Ambassador of the Crimean Khan Grandfather Agi "(1971).
        6) Nowadays it is considered a portrait of the family of Prince Mikhail Casimir Radziwill (see E. Kamenetskaya // West European Art of the 1981th Century. Leningrad: Art, 198. P. 215–XNUMX)

        landing operations
        What is “landing operation” in your 11th century AD? What do you think the Varangian Marines were landing on?
        this is when horses were used in a field battle, which were used

        Oh well. They just explained to all of us that the ranks of the Varangians are so dense that even the dead Varangians did not fall. Here, however, it should be assumed that the enemy knocked out the varangians somehow exclusively selectively, trying to kill so that the neighbors of the killed varanga must remain alive sad After all, if you kill two or three nearby Varangians, then they will certainly fall, will they hi
        But all right, we laughed at this and will return to our sheep, that is, to our horses.
        Imagine that a system of varangians is standing. Such a dense-dense system. Cavalry jumps on him. Varanga cavalry beat off. Some of the riders are being killed. Question - where do the horses of the slain go? Riding through the ranks of the Varangians to their rear, where the horsemen can later catch them, the horsemen cannot - the ranks of the Varangians are very dense. So the horses remain in the ranks of the ranks of the Varangians. Now let's think about how the horses behave when they see that the other horses (well, those with the riders) are jumping back, that is, away from the dense ranks of the Varangians. Let me remind you that horses are herd animals and even social. That is, those horses that were left without riders, but who themselves were not badly damaged, will simply speed up along with the other horses, which are controlled by the surviving riders, away from the ranks of the Varangians. And the Varangians will not catch up with them. This means that only horses that have themselves been injured or injured can fall into the possession of the Varangians. Sorry, but on such stables the varangs will not speed up. The maximum that can be done with such a horse composition is to use it for food. Well, maybe a couple of relatively slightly injured horses can be cured, but a couple of horses will not be pulled by the “cavalry of the Varangians”. Yes, and these must first be cured.

        It’s not very difficult to think.
        1. soldier
          soldier 10 November 2017 13: 24 New
          16
          Seal
          the character on whose behalf the book “Alexiada” was written (why I say this because no one saw the original, therefore it is impossible to even determine whether the manuscript was written in female or nevertheless male handwriting, with which the book was supposedly then printed), namely the character "Anna Komnina" - nowhere does she declare that she personally witnessed any battle. hi
          Secondly. But this is not the funniest thing yet. The funny thing is that my “intelligible opponent” managed to declare Anna Komnina an eyewitness to the battle of Dirrachia

          No, it juggled
          After all, the text does not say that Anna Komnina was a Witness of the battle of Dirrachia. Somewhere in the texts of this series, I saw a link to her text of the "Alexiad" - but this is not here. Anna Komnina saw the Varangians - how they shock the poleaxes, etc. There, links to pages are given. I saw the palace rehearsals.
          Anna Komnina recalled
          does not mean
          saw
          in relation to Dirrachia
          the image can be anyone, but since it is signed as an image of a varanga - then he takes it for an image of a varanga.

          We believe the official characteristics of the images. And of course nobody can forbid you to fantasize
          Question - where do the horses of the slain go? Riding through the ranks of the Varangians to their rear, where the horsemen can later catch them, the horsemen cannot - the ranks of the Varangians are very dense. So the horses remain in the ranks of the ranks of the Varangians. Now let's think about how the horses behave when they see that the other horses (well, those with the riders) are jumping back, that is, away from the dense ranks of the Varangians. Let me remind you that horses are herd animals and even social. That is, those horses that were left without riders, but who themselves were not badly damaged, will simply speed up along with the other horses, which are controlled by the surviving riders, away from the ranks of the Varangians. And the Varangians will not catch up with them. This means that only horses that have themselves been injured or injured can fall into the possession of the Varangians. Sorry, but I’m not going to speed up the varangs on such stables.

          Yes, there are different situations. Horses can be captured not only when
          tight formation
          They can be captured in the stables, but you never know how.
          The maximum that can be done with such a horse composition is to use it for food.

          Use
          Well, maybe a couple of relatively slightly injured horses and can be cured

          Treat
          And what does the cavalry have to do with it?
          Don't know the difference between cavalry and riding infantry?
          SOURCES after all say that the Varangians often used horses to throw - and then dismounted and fought as they used to.
          Cavalry - only in your imagination. Once in the text of the article, the author writes:
          the Vikings used horses only for movement - and dismounted before the battle

          It really is not very difficult
    2. soldier
      soldier 9 November 2017 17: 40 New
      16
      Should we assume that the Varangians landed mobile groups in bays and on the beaches, where trophy horses had already been prepared (assembled, saddled, watered and fed) in advance for mobility for them?

      No not like this
      Separate flies separately (landing operations). This is one thing.
      Borsch separately (this is when horses were used in a field battle, which were used). This is different.
      So to differentiate - is it not very difficult?
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. soldier
      soldier 10 November 2017 07: 32 New
      16
      Is it like the warring parties that agreed among themselves on the procedure for conducting a "sea battle"? Like, we honestly agree that we will first calmly line up opposite each other, then we will mate with each other and begin a boarding battle? And why didn’t they even agree to go ashore and wage the entire "sea battle" on the shore? And do not specify, but how did they agree to “mate” - with sides or noses?

      No, not agreed.
      This is a general scheme of the battle of the Varangians at sea, reproduced on the basis of the analysis of sources.
      Well, yes, he “ordered” a type of “right-left-left-and-right” and they instantly “left and right”. And physically, how do you imagine this?

      Of course, if the phalanx was trained, she maneuvered, including parted. No problem.
      Have you tried to throw a spear without a start?

      That's right.
      So don't put a shadow on the wattle fence
  5. Seal
    Seal 10 November 2017 12: 30 New
    +2
    Quote: soldier
    This is a general scheme of the battle of the Varangians at sea, reproduced on the basis of the analysis of sources.

    But what are you ashamed to give as an example at least one such "source"? What kind of "source" was written by the participant or at least an eyewitness (well, like someone from the shore watched) of the naval battle of the "Varangians".
    if the phalanx was trained, she maneuvered, including parted. No problem.

    In fact, strictly speaking, the same restructuring, how to part, as well as the execution of commands: to sit down, lie down, dig in, and so on, does not fall under the definition of "maneuver."
    Maneuver (fr. Manœuvre) - organized movement of troops (forces) in the course of a combat mission in order to occupy an advantageous position in relation to the enemy and create the necessary grouping of troops (forces) and means, as well as transfer or re-target (mass, distribute) strikes and fire for the most effective destruction of enemy groups and objects.

    Maneuver is carried out by associations, formations, units, subunits, forces and means, strikes and fire. Types of maneuver are: coverage, bypass, change of area (position).

    Well, okay, I will not find fault with .... clearly to whom.
    Nevertheless, I note that in order to answer like this
    if trained
    - in fact, a lot of mind is not needed. The mind is needed in order to specifically explain how this can be so parted.
    So, if a dense-dense system of varangians stands in one line - then there are no questions. Varangians can be trained to pay for the first or second, while every second takes a step (two steps) forward or backward, and then one sideways step, as a result of which every second goes behind every first or comes before every first.
    It’s a little more difficult, but it’s also possible to make such a rebuild if the varanga stand in two lines. In this case, first the first line takes a couple of steps forward, and the second a couple of steps back, or they simultaneously take the first step forward, the second step back (although there’s no step here, you need to take a couple of steps) and then make the same rebuilds, already in their ranks. Theoretically, one can imagine such a rearrangement even for three lines. But now for four ..... doubtful. To you the same question - in what ceremonial boxes did you go? 10x10? 12x12? Or maybe 24x24? Or maybe you organized the rebuilding of ceremonial boxes? And I remind you that all the parades are held on a perfectly flat parade ground. And even on carefully swept so that, God forbid, the foot slipped on something.
    In addition, we must not forget that all the rebuildings are done during the battle. That is, in front of the enemy. Which is just waiting for it, well, when finally does this dense-dense system of varangians begin to crumble. And who, having waited for this moment, begins to intensively fire arrows at the Varangians. By the way, and what, the adversary of the Varangians doesn’t specially have “catapults” and “ballist” so beloved by everyone on the X-Legio portal?
    About javelin throwing you answered
    That's right.

    That is, you should assume that you want to say that you threw a spear from a place, without a start?
    So how is it ? Why didn’t you share the result? How many meters were thrown? At 40? At 50? What about hitting the target? After all, you have to throw because of the "dense-dense" system of the Varangians.
    So don't put a shadow on the wattle fence hi

    Hmm, where is your colleague with his five-penny comment? Although I wouldn’t have given three kopecks, but if he himself had estimated it at five kopecks, then let it have been according to the euro. Gone?
    1. soldier
      soldier 10 November 2017 13: 36 New
      16
      And what are you ashamed to give as an example at least one such "source"

      Sagas write about it
      Modern reconstructions confirm
      Search so to speak

      “Actually, strictly speaking, the same rebuilding, how to part, as well as the execution of commands: to sit down, lie down, dig in, and so on, does not fall under the definition of“ maneuver ”.
      Maneuver (fr. Manœuvre) - organized movement of troops (forces) in the course of a combat mission in order to occupy an advantageous position in relation to the enemy and create the necessary grouping of troops (forces) and means, as well as transfer or re-target (mass, distribute) strikes and fire for the most effective destruction of enemy groups and objects.

      Maneuver is carried out by associations, formations, units, subunits, forces and means, strikes and fire. Types of maneuver are: coverage, bypass, change of area (position).

      Oh well, I will not quibble

      Yes, and the maneuver is different. Tactical and operational for example. And how was maneuver understood in the era of edged weapons? On the battlefield?
      Varangians can be trained to pay for the first or second, while every second takes a step (two steps) forward or backward, and then one sideways step, as a result of which every second goes behind every first or comes before every first.
      It’s a little more difficult, but it’s also possible to make such a rebuild if the varanga stand in two lines. In this case, first the first line takes a couple of steps forward, and the second a couple of steps back, or they simultaneously take the first step forward, the second step back (although there’s no step here, you need to take a couple of steps) and then make the same rebuilds, already in their ranks. Theoretically, one can imagine such a rearrangement even for three lines. But now for four ..... doubtful. To you the same question - in what ceremonial boxes did you go? 10x10? 12x12? Or maybe 24x24? Or maybe you organized the rebuilding of ceremonial boxes? And I remind you that all the parades are held on a perfectly flat parade ground. And even on carefully swept so that, God forbid, the foot slipped on something.
      In addition, we must not forget that all the rebuildings are done during the battle. That is, in front of the enemy. Which is just waiting for it, well, when finally does this dense-dense system of varangians begin to crumble. And who, having waited for this moment, begins to intensively fire arrows at the Varangians. By the way, and what, the adversary of the Varangians doesn’t specially have “catapults” and “ballist” so beloved by everyone on the X-Legio portal?

      You can line up and rebuild. Remodeling is your right. Sources tell us that the Varangian Guard trained and rebuilt. And your understanding of this issue is your business.
      After all, you have to throw because of the "dense-dense" system of varangians.

      But the fact that before the cast the system could be reconstructed is not taken into account? And how legionnaires threw pylums?
      Hmm, where is your colleague with his five-penny comment?

      Are you talking about whom and what? Where are your colleagues with penny comments?
      The recommendation is the same
      Do not put a shadow on the wattle fence hi
      1. Seal
        Seal 13 November 2017 11: 29 New
        +1
        And what are you ashamed to give as an example at least one such "source"
        Quote: soldier
        Sagas write about it
        Modern reconstructions confirm
        Search so to speak

        Ah sagas laughing
        Firstly, the concept of sagas appeared only in the 1643th century, when the Icelandic bishop Brunjuld Sveisson published "great-grandmother's tales" (Edda, XNUMX).
        Secondly, be so kind as to point your finger at a specific saga where the sea battle is described, rather than a battle in the fjords or in rivers where there is no excitement and where one of the opponents or blocks the entire fjord (river) with its ships connected to each other, or connects their ships, relying on a ship that is firmly moored over the coast and thus all the ships are one floating pontoon.
        Modern reconstruction? What's this ? Who are you holding people for? Modern reconstructions are pre-detailed and agreed upon who will perform the performances. You recall, undertook to prove the lack of agreement before the naval battle.
        Is it like the warring parties that agreed among themselves on the procedure for conducting a "sea battle"? Like, we honestly agree that we will first calmly line up opposite each other, then we will mate with each other and begin a boarding battle? And why didn’t they even agree to go ashore and wage the entire "sea battle" on the shore? And do not specify, but how did they agree to “mate” - with sides or noses?
        Quote: soldier
        No, they didn’t agree. This is a general scheme of the battle of the Varangians at sea, reproduced on the basis of analysis of sources.

        And now "reconstructions confirm" lol lol

        Quote: soldier
        Sources tell us that the Varangian Guard trained and rebuilt.

        And also sources say about:
        The Israelites groaned under the yoke of the Philistines, but not Samson! He was a stumbling block in the relations of the Israelites with the oppressors, so the Philistines demanded that he be extradited, 3000 people came to capture him. Samson joyfully agreed to be bound and transferred to the Philistines. Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon him; he easily broke the ropes and killed 1000 Philistines with a donkey jaw. hi
        Quote: soldier
        But the fact that before the cast the system could be reconstructed is not taken into account?

        I don’t accept it, "when I just told you about
        So, if a dense-dense system of varangians stands in one line - then there are no questions. Varangians can be trained to pay for the first or second, while every second takes a step (two steps) forward or backward, and then one sideways step, as a result of which every second goes behind every first or comes before every first ..... and so further in my text.

        Quote: soldier
        And how legionnaires threw pylums?

        I have no idea. He was not a legionnaire, no pilums or pelumas were metal. Have you found an authentic copy of the “Manual for Legionnaires on Pylum Throwing”? And who is the author? Is not Julius our Caesar?

        Returning to your achievements. The third time I ask you to share which. yet all the same range you threw a spear from a place without a start. And what weight was your spear?
        1. soldier
          soldier 13 November 2017 18: 43 New
          15
          [quote] Secondly, be so kind as to point your finger at a specific saga where the sea battle is described, and not a battle in the fjords or in rivers where there is no excitement [/ quote]
          We will talk about naval tactics of the Varangians
          Only
          It seems to be
          [quote] Modern reconstruction? What's this ? Who are you holding people for? Modern reconstructions are pre-detailed and agreed upon who will perform the performances. [/ quote]
          Reconstruction of modern historians
          So see?
          [quote] [quote] The Israelites groaned under the yoke of the Philistines, but not Samson! He was a stumbling block in the relations of the Israelites with the oppressors, so the Philistines demanded that he be extradited, 3000 people came to capture him. Samson joyfully agreed to be bound and transferred to the Philistines. Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon him; he easily broke the ropes and killed 1000 Philistines with a donkey jaw. [/ quote]
          I'm missing it
          Put out the light, throw a grenade. I do not believe that I correspond with such lol Yes
          [quote] I have no idea. He was not a legionnaire, no pilums or pelumas were metal. Have you found a genuine copy of the “Manual for Legionnaires on Pylum Throwing”? And who is the author? Is not Julius our Caesar? [/ Quote]
          You have no idea
          Do not have - and more
  6. Some kind of compote
    Some kind of compote 10 November 2017 15: 38 New
    15
    Arguably, qualitatively, interesting
    We look forward to continuing good
  7. Seal
    Seal 13 November 2017 11: 07 New
    +2
    Quote: soldier
    No, it juggled
    After all, the text does not say that Anna Komnina was a Witness of the battle of Dirrachia.


    Yes, it’s a mess. But this is your troubles. I show. The text was not. It was with you. I remind you.

    9 November 2017 17: 37 ↑
    Anna Komnina recalled how her father Alexei I Komnin moved the Varangians
    She could only “remember” someone else’s stories, right?

    Quote: soldier
    No, not so. She was an OWNER. I saw what I wrote about.

    But the verb “moved” in the text refers specifically to the battle of Dirrachia !!
    I show. Quotes from the text.
    Anna Komnina recalled how her father Alexei I Komnin moved the Varangians, led by their commander Nambit, a short distance ahead of the attacking Byzantine units

    There are more.

    Battle of Dirrachia, despite its result, serves as an illustration of the excellent tactical training of the Varangians: when the emperor Alexey pushed forward archers to fire at the Normans of Guiscard, he ordered the Vikings to step left and right and skip the shooters, and then close the ranks again and begin to move forward - after the archers depart through their formation back [Comnina A. Decree. Op. S. 150].

    This is what I pointed out that
    She could only “remember” someone else’s stories, right?

    And you began to assure that
    Quote: soldier
    No, not so. She was an OWNER. I saw what I wrote about.

    And now, having forgotten your own words, you begin to claim that Anna made all her conclusions on the basis of the fact that she was an eyewitness of how the Varangians shake their axes (presumably in the Palace or around).

    As my grandson says, seeing some kind of mess on the street: "Uncle made ay-yay."

    The image can be anyone, but since it is signed as an image of a varanga, then he takes it for an image of a varanga.
    Quote: soldier
    We believe the official characteristics of the images. And of course nobody can forbid you to fantasize

    Using the example of D. Schwartz’s painting "Family Portrait", I showed that it is the official story that fantasizes. Five or six times the official story changed its idea of ​​what is still depicted in the portrait.
    I remind you.
    The painting was painted in 1654, 1664 or 1672. Exhibited under the names:
    1) “The Polish king with the family” (1755),
    2) "Ketler, the last duke of Courland" (1818),
    3) The Amusing Court of the Polish Tycoon (1911),
    4) “Group portrait of a noble Tatar with his family” (1931),
    5) "Portrait of the Crimean Ambassador Khan Dedash Agi" (1971).
    6) Nowadays it is considered a portrait of the family of Prince Mikhail Casimir Radziwill (see E. Kamenetskaya // West European Art of the 1981th Century. Leningrad: Art, 198. P. 215–XNUMX)

    So who is not forbidden to fantasize from the Polish king with the family "(1755), through the Comic yard of the Polish magnate" (1911), and the Group portrait of a noble Tatar with his family (1931) to the family of Prince Mikhail Casimir Radziwill (1981) ??
    1. soldier
      soldier 13 November 2017 18: 34 New
      15
      Seal
      Yes, it’s a mess. But this is your troubles. I show. The text was not. It was with you. I remind you.

      And where is the indication of my juggling?
      Anna Komnina recalled how her father Alexei I Komnin moved the Vikings, led by their commander Nambit, a short distance ahead of the attacking Byzantine units

      Remembered - does not mean
      saw
      As I said
      Anna made her conclusions based on the fact that she was an eyewitness of how the varangians shake their axes

      I remembered this from past articles - when it was written about Varang herself
      Using the example of D. Schwartz’s painting "Family Portrait", I showed that it is the official story that fantasizes. Five or six times the official story changed its idea of ​​what is still depicted in the portrait.
      I remind you.
      The painting was painted in 1654, 1664 or 1672. Exhibited under the names:
      1) “The Polish king with the family” (1755),
      2) "Ketler, the last duke of Courland" (1818),
      3) The Amusing Court of the Polish Tycoon (1911),
      4) “Group portrait of a noble Tatar with his family” (1931),
      5) "Portrait of the Crimean Ambassador Khan Dedash Agi" (1971).
      6) Nowadays it is considered a portrait of the family of Prince Mikhail Casimir Radziwill (see E. Kamenetskaya // West European Art of the 1981th Century. Leningrad: Art, 198. P. 215–XNUMX)
      So who is not forbidden to fantasize from the Polish king with the family "(1755), through the Comic yard of the Polish magnate" (1911), and the Group portrait of a noble Tatar with his family (1931) to the family of Prince Mikhail Casimir Radziwill (1981) ??

      I repeat - we believe in officialdom
      You - as you want
  8. Seal
    Seal 13 November 2017 11: 47 New
    +1
    Quote: soldier
    They (horses) can be captured in the stables, but you never know how.

    Oh well. Let me remind you that the antiquity of a horse was a very great value (by the way, apparently and a rarity, if it had a great value, there would be a lot of horses - their value would not be so great). Now imagine that somewhere in the horizon appeared ships of the Varangians. And what does the population do? Does the population run to the mountains on foot, leaving horses in the stables? By the way, didn’t you think when the stables themselves actually appeared? Yes, I am aware that Hercules was cleaning the Augean stables. But first, Hercules is a demigod. And secondly, this legend was born at the end of the Middle Ages.

    But here
    And what does the cavalry have to do with it?
    Don't know the difference between cavalry and riding infantry?
    SOURCES after all say that the Varangians often used horses to throw - and then dismounted and fought as they used to.
    Cavalry - only in your imagination. Once in the text of the article, the author writes:

    are you trying again to surpass yourself in ....
    Who cares what to call those on horseback, even cavalry, even infantry. Question - where are the horses from?
    And you think that some Greek, looking from a safe distance at the walking (galloping) horses on which people sit, will strongly think who this "cavalry" or "riding infantry" lol
    1. soldier
      soldier 13 November 2017 18: 37 New
      15
      Oh well. Let me remind you that the antiquity of a horse was a very great value (by the way, apparently and a rarity, if it had a great value, there would be a lot of horses - their value would not be so great). Now imagine that somewhere in the horizon appeared ships of the Varangians. And what does the population do? Does the population run to the mountains on foot, leaving horses in the stables? By the way, didn’t you think when the stables themselves actually appeared? Yes, I am aware that Hercules was cleaning the Augean stables. But first, Hercules is a demigod. And secondly, this legend was born at the end of the Middle Ages.

      I don’t understand what these exercises are for.
      Horses can be grabbed under ALMOST ANY CONDITIONS
      Who cares what to call those on horseback, even cavalry, even infantry.

      Are you trying to give the varangians a cavalry
      And they are traveling infantry.
      And you think that some Greek, looking from a safe distance at the walking (galloping) horses on which people sit, will strongly think who this "cavalry" or "riding infantry"

      Greek will not
      But then you - calling it a cavalry, you must know the difference
      Probably
  9. Seal
    Seal 14 November 2017 12: 58 New
    +2
    Quote: soldier
    And where is the indication of my juggling? Remembered - does not mean

    Yeah, well !!! The priest had a dog, he loved her ..... for cola bast - start over.
    So, let's start all over again.
    Here is the author of the article wrote
    Anna Komnina recalled how her father Alexei I Komnin moved the Varangians

    To which I made my remark.
    She could only “remember” someone else’s stories, right?

    This remark greatly excited you and you climbed into the battle by writing
    No not like this. She was an OWNER. I saw what I wrote about.

    I, like any normal person, realized that if you say that She was an OWNER. Saw what she wrote , then therefore you consider Anna an eyewitness to the battle of Dyrrarchia.
    I rightly pointed out this to you, that according to the traditional version of history, the battle of Dyrarrchia took place in 1081, and Anna was born in 1083.
    However, the course of your thoughts turned out to be so mildly interesting to say that you said that
    Anna Comnina remembered does not mean seen in relation to Dyrrahiy
    And that supposedly she saw how
    Anna Komnina saw the Varangians - how they shock the axes, etc.
    ..I’m even afraid to ask what you hid under the abbreviation “and so on” .... that is, what else do you think Anna saw, what else do the sharangans shake besides the axes lol
    Well, let Anna see everything that the Varangians shake. But if you agree that she was neither a witness nor an eyewitness to the battle of Dyrarrchia, then you have nothing against my very first comment-question, that
    She could "remember" only someone’s stories, right?
    , is not it ?
    And if you have nothing against it, then why were you starting this whole bazaar?
    So, we are back to where I started.
    the author of the article wrote
    Anna Komnina recalled how her father Alexei I Komnin moved the Varangians

    I noticed that
    She could only “remember” someone else’s stories, right?


    Any questions ?
    You have already announced that this time you agree, there are no questions !!

    Section II Marine.
    The author wrote.
    In naval combat, the Varangians acted as follows. Lining up opposite each other, the ships interlocked and a boarding battle began.

    To which I noticed that in order for this scheme of naval combat to be implemented, the warring parties must agree among themselves on the procedure for conducting "naval combat." Like, we honestly agree that we will first calmly line up opposite each other, then we will mate with each other and begin a boarding battle? And why didn’t they even agree to go ashore and wage the entire "sea battle" on the shore? And do not specify, but how did they agree to “mate” - with sides or noses?

    You are here again excited ....
    No, not agreed. This is a general scheme of the battle of the Varangians at sea, reproduced on the basis of the analysis of sources.

    To my comment
    And what are you ashamed to give as an example at least one such "source"

    You stated that they say:
    Sagas write about it. Modern reconstructions confirm

    I asked to name at least one saga, which describes the sea battle - you did not name.
    As a kind of "reconstruction" you proposed the version that it
    Reconstruction of modern historians

    Well, what else can I add? Well, except that the "modern historians" are best able to reconstruct what is not a single genuine document or eyewitness evidence clearly dated by the time the event took place. What a huge field for all kinds of "reconstructions" laughing
    Reconstruct - I do not want laughing
    And the main thing is that whatever modern historians have not redesigned for themselves, such as the “soldier” will demand that they unconditionally believe in these reconstructions. For in their opinion this is "officialdom." Well, how can you not believe in officialdom !!!
    Well, and officialdom will change - such as a "soldier" in even greater zeal will require believing in a new officialdom. Well, until he changes too. lol
    Although, we all understand that all these games (computer games) of modern historians are not officialdom, they are just their personal opinions on the topic of how something could have been there in the gray ages of centuries. And not the fact that it was at all.
    And how often and dramatically change opinions - I cited the example of the painting "Family Portrait".

    Such as the soldier believe in the supernatural abilities of the phalanx of the Varangians, as apparently the "phalanx of the Macedonians", believe in the supernatural abilities of the wild hulk tribes (called the Mongols in the 19th century) and in the equally fantastic abilities of a certain "Genghis Khan".
    They believe that the "Varangian naval assault" can easily capture horses, and in quantities sufficient to turn this "naval assault" into a "traveling infantry" for some period.
    They believe that you can easily and far throw a spear without a start, standing still. And they even claim that they personally “threw” it. But at the same time they are stubbornly ignoring probably my fifth request to share the result of such throwing.

    Well, what can I say? Well, only that they have no choice but to "believe." Believe, for what they believe in is ridiculous. And what is ridiculous can really only be believed. hi
    1. soldier
      soldier 14 November 2017 14: 05 New
      15
      Yeah, well !!! The priest had a dog, he loved her ..... for cola bast - start over.
      So, let's start all over again.

      Do not start - who needs it
      She could only “remember” someone else’s stories, right?

      This remark greatly excited you and you climbed into the battle by writing
      No not like this. She was an OWNER. I saw what I wrote about.

      I, like any normal person, understood that if you say that She was OWNER. I saw what you wrote about, therefore, you consider Anna an eyewitness to the battle of Dyrarrchia.

      I wrote you my understanding of the issue in Russian. Anna Komnina WAS Varyazhsky guard and palace rehearsals. Did you see? Of course. These are her personal impressions. In the battle of Dirrachia - naturally did not participate. And therefore, recalling Dyrrahia - this does not mean that in this case she spoke of SEEED.
      0
      In naval combat, the Varangians acted as follows. Lining up opposite each other, the ships interlocked and a boarding battle began.

      To which I noticed that in order for this scheme of naval combat to be implemented, the warring parties must agree among themselves on the procedure for conducting "naval combat." Like, we honestly agree that we will first calmly line up opposite each other, then we will mate with each other and begin a boarding battle? And why didn’t they even agree to go ashore and wage the entire "sea battle" on the shore? And do not specify, but how did they agree to “mate” - with sides or noses?

      Are you here again excited

      Select expression. If you are aroused by correspondence, God knows with someone, do not transfer your arousal to others.
      I just wrote that such a combat scheme is described in the sources and reconstructed by later historians. Prove the opposite - your business, your right.
      And remodel as you want.
      They believe that the "Varangian naval assault" can easily capture horses, and in quantities sufficient to turn this "naval assault" into a "traveling infantry" for some period.

      Yes, understand at last - that optionally the Varangian amphibious assault captured horses. And it’s not even necessary that they are captured in battle. They could capture them anywhere - in the form of trophies, taking them from the locals, etc.
      It's just that the Varangians FREQUENTLY used horses to get to the battlefield. This is indicated by sources. And you persistently call such a riding infantry cavalry - to see without knowing the difference.
      You can bring a dozen names of different paintings.
      As for the picture VARYAGA.
      For me, the signature of an illustration made by a specialist is more important than a dozen insinuations of some sialas.
      They believe that you can easily and far throw a spear without a start, standing still. And they even claim that they personally “threw” it. But at the same time they are stubbornly ignoring probably my fifth request to share the result of such throwing.

      And why on earth should I carry out not knowingly whose requests? laughing
      The spears were thrown - in different ways, which again the sources say.
      And what is ridiculous can really only be believed.

      They know something, but they believe in something.
      You can also believe in what is ridiculous - for God's sake.
      1. Alex1117
        Alex1117 14 November 2017 22: 29 New
        +1
        Well, if you look at it, it’s you yourself who voluntarily cited yourself as an example, as an “evidence argument”. So they ask you to confirm your "argument". And you went offended.
        1. soldier
          soldier 14 November 2017 22: 52 New
          15
          Alex1117
          Well, if you look at it, it’s you yourself who voluntarily cited yourself as an example, as an “evidence argument”.

          What it is about is just not clear to me. Some kind of game.
          So they ask you to confirm your "argument". And you went offended.

          He confirmed, and not just one argument, but several times and more (see above). And about Anna Komnin (of which she could be an eyewitness), and about traveling infantry (how and when horses were captured) and about the tactics of sea battle. Here people only hear themselves. So you just need to learn to read - everything is explained above and repeatedly.
          And here is what you wrote to a friend (or gentleman) below
          Check the gospel more often

          It's right. Therefore, let him who has ears hear.
          And here the Chief Physician correctly wrote:
          Why respond to every sneeze?

          We will not chew the same dozen times
          Bow out
          Tired of order
          Spokushki
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. Seal
        Seal 17 November 2017 09: 29 New
        +2
        And why on earth should I carry out not knowingly whose requests?

        And who was pulling you for your tongue when you took up this?
        Seal November 9, 2017 15:22 p.m.
        Have you tried to throw a spear without a start? Try and then share the results.

        Your reply November 10, 2017 07:32
        Yes sir. So don't put a shadow on the wattle fence

        Well ? The results are where ??? And without throwing results, your answer is not an answer. However, I suppose that you threw your “spear" by 9-10 meters, not further, right? Therefore, you, as partisans during interrogation, do not give out your military secret - the result of throwing a spear from a place without a start.

        What is the name of a person sitting (eating) on ​​a horse.
        The normal answers are:
        - rider;
        - the equestrian.
        A lot of people on horseback:
        - riders;
        - horsemen.

        Your answer: "No, not horsemen and horsemen, it’s driving pedestrians" fool
        1. soldier
          soldier 17 November 2017 11: 20 New
          16
          You forgot to say
          Huh
          , is not it?
          Interesting detail by the way
          The results are where ??? And without throwing results, your answer is not an answer. However, I suppose that you threw your “spear" by 9-10 meters, not further, right? Therefore, you, as partisans during interrogation, do not give out your military secret - the result of throwing a spear from a place without a start.

          This has nothing to do with the article and does not prove anything. By the way, the article is not about me, the address was wrong. Nothing owes to anyone.
          What is the name of a person sitting (eating) on ​​a horse.
          The normal answers are:
          - rider;
          - the equestrian.
          A lot of people on horseback:
          - riders;
          - horsemen.
          Your answer: "No, not horsemen and horsemen, these are pedestrians traveling"

          It can be called and perceived as anything
          But forum participants on a military-historical site should know the difference between CAVALERY and RIDING INFANTRY. And do not invent that the article talks about cavalry. I’m just about that.
          And enough to pour from empty to empty.
          Good luck in hard work
  10. Head Physician
    Head Physician 14 November 2017 21: 48 New
    16
    The article is beautiful, like the previous ones on the topic.
    Comments too
    Except for two extreme comrades.
    Soldier Fedor Ivanovich - do not you see that you are being bothered, why react to every sneeze?
    And the average Russian Seal is an obvious schizoid-graphomaniac.
    Grafoman ... Somewhere I heard this definition on the forum ... I must remember
    It will not be worse
    In general - break guys
    1. Alex1117
      Alex1117 14 November 2017 22: 17 New
      +1
      Look more often in Luke, chapter 4, 23. Do not disturb people. I am writing down. This online resource is one of the few where often the comments are much more interesting than the articles themselves. Do not try to turn it into a hopeless all-embracing. Take something like me and a nickname like "Investigator for Particularly Important Cases" and on this basis to teach everyone? It is possible, but as if for a child’s gluuuuupoooo !!!!
      1. Head Physician
        Head Physician 14 November 2017 22: 29 New
        16
        Look often in Luke, chapter 4 pp. 23.

        I will do without advice of this kind
        This online resource is one of the few where often the comments are much more interesting than the articles themselves.

        I really doubt that. I began to read from old articles - and read such a commentary on the excellent article by Olesya Buzina (a comment was written a couple of years later as the author died and this interesting commentator could not have known this) - "In the garden of Buzin, and in Kiev, uncle." Comments, unnecessarily, p.
        Do not try to turn it into a hopeless all-embracing. Take something like "Investigator for Particularly Important Cases" to me and, on this basis, teach everyone?

        I express my opinion
        And just you teach. Throw, not worth it like that.
        I have the honor
        1. Alex1117
          Alex1117 15 November 2017 06: 29 New
          +3
          I did not say that all comments .... I said that "often comments." Well, what kind of comments should be followed in order to draw a conclusion about the quality of all comments - each one chooses for himself from the whole set of them. You, as I see it, have made your conclusion based on your comment above. Well, what can I say here, besides, no matter how we recall our popular saying that someone will surely find ... not the cleanest place.
          You not only express your opinion. You are trying to play the role of a certain judge who allegedly has the right to prohibit further posting of comments. This is your “Break guys” - it is your instructive prohibition. Like you came, figured it all out and passed a sentence.
          Do you have? Well have, have. Your honor is your right. But at least not so often. Worn quickly from frequent estates.
          1. Head Physician
            Head Physician 17 November 2017 09: 53 New
            16
            More about
            Comments are much more interesting than the articles themselves.

            In Soviet times there were so-called critics. A whole layer of literary scholars, so to speak. They lived due to the fact that someone was criticized - that is, due to the authors (and not only the classics).
            Therefore, as I believe, any author is 10 goals above the critic who is paralyzing him. One creates (whether it’s good or bad - another question), and the other winds around (like a mosquito) and criticizes - because only this can. Therefore, what was written by these curlers is always recyclable.
            You, as I see it, have made your conclusion based on your comment above. Well, what can I say here, besides, no matter how we recall our popular saying that someone will surely find ... not the cleanest place.

            The hint understood, do not bother further
            Do you have? Well have, have. Your honor is your right. But at least not so often. Worn quickly from frequent estates.

            For my honor, dear, do not worry.
            Not wear out
            And not here - it's like giving a drink
  11. Seal
    Seal 21 November 2017 08: 53 New
    +1
    Quote: Chief Physician
    written by this curly is always recyclable.

    And to what extent do you order raw materials to consider what you have written? You wrote to neither the mind nor the heart. If he would shame his colleague, he won’t say that "his own experience of throwing a spear from a place" is a proof of the possibility of throwing a spear - and he has been silent for more than a week now, like partisans about the results of his own "throwing".
    1. Head Physician
      Head Physician 21 November 2017 22: 47 New
      15
      And to what extent do you order raw materials to consider what you have written?

      Same as what you wrote.
      Written here and below.
      I have no colleagues on this site. And I do not regret it.
      Better to read the granddaughter of marshals than nameless failed field marshals.
      This is joking
      Nevermind
  12. Seal
    Seal 21 November 2017 09: 13 New
    +1
    Quote: soldier
    But forum participants on a military-historical site should know the difference between CAVALERY and RIDING INFANTRY. And do not invent that the article talks about cavalry.

    To begin with, it would be nice for the “forum participants” to find out that the dragoons referred to in the article were of two types. At least we had dragoons of equestrian service, that is, cavalry capable of acting in a dismounted state, and dragoons of foot service, operating mainly only in a dismounted state, but using horses for movement. According to our classification, in the 19-20 centuries dragoons were linear (medium) cavalry. However, the armed forces of other states had a different classification. For example, in Prussia, dragoons were considered heavy cavalry and operated in the same ranks as cuirassiers, and in the English army there were so-called light dragoons, which were simultaneously listed as hussars.
    And you also need to understand that the appearance of dragoons, well, those you call "traveling infantry" was caused by the appearance of firearms. That is, the infantrymen armed with firearms simply used horses to quickly overcome the distance to the battlefield.
    In Russia in the 1630s, dragoons in the documents were called the military people of the dragoon service.
    Our great sovereign, against his enemies of the state, is going to many and uncountable, and the structure is different: ...
    many thousands with large muskets, dragoon system;


    - Description of the Russian army, given by Cosimo de Medici, in Florence, by the stolnik I.I. Chemodanov (ambassador to Venice), in 1656.

    Subsequently, other means of delivering "traveling infantry" appeared - bicycles, scooters (motorcycles), and then collective delivery vehicles - cars (including "Parisian taxis") and armored personnel carriers.
    But before the appearance of firearms, the need for "traveling infantry" could not objectively arise.
    This is confirmed by the complete lack of information about such a "traveling infantry" when describing the military operations of the Varangians as part of the troops of our Russian princes. Moreover, both Anna Komnina and our Central Russian Upland often have the same Varangians. Which in the mountain Balkans, being a "sea landing", successfully ride on "trophy horses", but as soon as they get into our conditions of endless plains and fields, they immediately forget about their "riding infantry" skills and brazenly neglect trophy horses of the Polovtsia.
    And you and the author are trying to draw the ears of the realities of the era of firearms to the era when the firearm still did not smell.

    Do you even remember what you undertook to prove to me here?
    Let me remind you, in relation to modernity.
    You undertook to prove that, for example, the granddaughters of (conditionally) Marshals Zhukov or Tymoshenko could successfully describe the military operations conducted by their grandfathers, since they were eyewitnesses to the changing of the guard at the Mausoleum.
    1. soldier
      soldier 21 November 2017 23: 11 New
      15
      This is confirmed by the complete lack of information about such a "traveling infantry" when describing the military operations of the Varangians as part of the troops of our Russian princes. Moreover, both Anna Komnina and our Central Russian Upland often have the same Varangians. Which in the mountain Balkans, being a "sea landing", successfully ride on "trophy horses", but as soon as they get into our conditions of endless plains and fields, they immediately forget about their "riding infantry" skills and brazenly neglect trophy horses of the Polovtsia.
      And you and the author are trying to draw the ears of the realities of the era of firearms to the era when the firearm still did not smell.

      Riding infantry was not only in the era of firearms.
      That's just it, that the traveling infantry, having reached the battlefield, "brazenly neglects the trophy horses."
      After all, such only got to the battlefield - and there it acted like an infantry - with the usual weapons.
      Not necessarily a firearm.
      With dragoons, it seems to me - just an interesting parallel. Moreover, Varanga had a dragon standard.
      And Komnina has nothing to do with it - there are enough other sources. The fact that the Varangians used trophy horses - by the way, Komnina did not write. This is the era of Basil the Second.
      I prove nothing to anyone
      And about the rest ...
      I will quote the words of our mutual friend, respected author and forum member:
      And what is the result? Your words will not change anything. You will only amuse me and many other people. Moreover, just such comments here are very desirable and you must give them without fail. So it just might be you are a virtual twin of the author, or are you writing all this by prior conspiracy?
  13. Seal
    Seal 29 November 2017 18: 55 New
    +1
    Quote: soldier
    Riding infantry was not only in the era of firearms.

    Halva, halva ....
    Quote: soldier
    After all, such only got to the battlefield - and there it acted like an infantry - with the usual weapons.
    Not necessarily a firearm.

    That is what logic is only with a firearm. Otherwise, it’s just complete idiocy while sitting on a horse and holding a spear, that is, having acquired the functions of a medieval tank, having reached the enemy, suddenly getting off the horse, thereby losing half of its combat capabilities.
    Quote: soldier
    Moreover, Varanga had a dragon standard.

    The standard is in the studio !!!!!
    Quote: soldier
    And Komnina has nothing to do with it - there are enough other sources. The fact that the Varangians used trophy horses - by the way, Komnina did not write. This is the era of Basil the Second.

    Oops how !!! And these are whose words ???
    soldier November 9, 2017 17:37 p.m. ↑
    Anna Komnina recalled how her father Alexei I Komnin moved the Varangians
    She could only “remember” someone else’s stories, right?

    No, not so. She was an OWNER. I saw what I wrote about.

    Other sources clearly dated by the same time - to the studio !!!
    Quote: soldier
    I prove nothing to anyone

    It goes without saying that you are not proving anything to anyone. Not yet matured. You don’t even remember your own words. Or do not understand what to write.
    1. soldier
      soldier 30 November 2017 08: 02 New
      15
      Yes, Mr.Poruchik
      That is what logic is only with a firearm. Otherwise, it’s just complete idiocy while sitting on a horse and holding a spear, that is, having acquired the functions of a medieval tank, having reached the enemy, suddenly getting off the horse, thereby losing half of its combat capabilities.

      This is what a fright?
      And what does the spear have to do with it? The Varangians were still armed with swords and axes. They fought on foot. And the horse is just a means of transportation to get where you need to.
      Aristakes Lastivertsi, talking about the Transcaucasian campaigns of Basil, writes about this and other sources. But some seal (Lieutenant T.) - against.
      Standard - to the studio

      He is already in the studio - in the material on the uniform and equipment of the varanga. Open your eyes.
      Other sources clearly dated by that time - to the studio

      Norman sources confirm. Rummage, look wink
      According to Anna Komnina, I repeat - I did not participate in Dirrachia, but I saw Varanga. Not at Dirrachia, but at court.
      It goes without saying that you are not proving anything to anyone. Not mature enough yet.

      And you already outgrew along the way. They stupidly attached themselves to exactly the nuances that you understand — traveling infantry, etc. Read the literature on the topic — maybe something will become clear. At least even the Ospreyev Varyazhsky guard.
      hi
  14. Bouncer
    Bouncer 9 March 2018 14: 38 New
    15
    Thanks for the great article!