Military Review

The silence of the Russian spetskhrana

111
The silence of the Russian spetskhranaIn Soviet times, official historians were absolute monopolists on historical the truth, and their works were published in runs of hundreds of thousands of copies. Independent historians (underground historians) in these years lurked underground, and all their activity was reduced to kitchen talk and self-publishing. And this did not suit the KGB, which periodically conducted a search in "bad apartments" and often sent those caught red-handed to places not so remote. Since 1991, everything has changed. The works of official historians simply stopped buying, and the works of underground historians by numerous private publishers began to produce no less huge print runs. But most importantly, to the pleasure and at the same time to the resentment of underground historians, their works crawled across the Internet in countless electronic copies without knowledge.


HISTORICAL MONOPOLY

What happened? The fact is that until 1991 our military history was full of white spots and frank lies. To whom this wording cuts the ear, another term can be used - “wartime propaganda”. Indeed, lies (military propaganda) are also weaponnot worse than guns and tanks, and the warring parties are actively using it in the course of hostilities.

But then the war ends, and wartime propaganda becomes dangerous for the state and for its manufacturer. For example, in Western countries after the war more than 95% of incriminating information was published on politicians and generals. Part of it was brought to the general reader in the media and in popular literature. A fair amount of "unpleasant information" was almost never mentioned in the media, but was described in detail in open but small-circulation academic works. Typical examples are the execution of a French squadron by a British fleet in Mers-el-Kebir, the landing and bloody battles of the Americans for the island of Kysku, where the Japanese were not, and all the losses were from mines and "friendly" fire. And only a few particularly scandalous stories are still under the heading "top secret." For example, the details of the flight of Rudolf Hess to England, the correspondence of the British royal house with Hitler, other prominent Nazis, etc.

In the USSR, due to the monopoly of the state in the field of history, our generals and professors apparently decided that they could leave intact the numerous white spots of our history, as well as blatant lies or, correctly speaking, elements of wartime propaganda. And it concerned not only the Great Patriotic War. For example, until now no official historian recognizes or denies the participation of Suzdal Prince Andrei Yaroslavich and his Suzdal “forged” ratification in the battle on the ice of Lake Peipsi in 1242. Official historians have also forgotten about the participation of the Russian army and navy in suppressing the rebellion of the “boxers” in China in 1900, in the capture of Beijing and the looting of the Forbidden City.

And from the history of the Civil War, the 52-thousandth North-Western army of Prince Avalov fell out. Our “wise” historians did not know how to classify this army, because Bermont-Avalov mercilessly scolded the Bolsheviks, but did not fire a single shot at them, but beat only the Baltic nationalists and the Anglo-French interventionists.

But what is remarkable. The ignorance of our historians has led not only to oblivion of their works after 1991, but also turned out to be a formidable weapon in the hands of Russophobes. Thus, the capture of Baturin by Menshikov in 1708 was exaggerated to the utmost by “independent” historians and became one of the fundamental pillars of “Ukrainian history”. Naturally, the Ukrainian man in the street believed the nationalists, and it’s not for nothing that the ominous Muscovites classified the “genocide of the Ukrainian people” perpetrated by Peter I.'s assistant.

Unfortunately, even now our official historians very slowly and reluctantly discover the secrets of the military history of Russia. And we are talking not only about battles, but also about collisions around military equipment.

FANTASY OF TUHACHEVSKY

Zamnarkom defense for armament Marshal Tukhachevsky was fully rehabilitated in 1956 year. Khrushchev praised the "genius marshal" almost in every speech he gave about the war and the cult of the individual. The name Tukhachevsky was called 79 streets, 6 lanes and one embankment. But here is a weighty (720 pages) folio “History of Russian Artillery”, volume 3, dedicated to the period from 1921 to June 1941 of the year. I look at the nominal index: the deputy commander for armaments, that is, the one who led the development of weapons and military equipment, including artillery, is mentioned here only once - on the 339 page. It says that Tukhachevsky was very attentive to the work of GIRD in 1932. And that's it! And that is something published in 1964 year, when the whole country for eight years glorified "brilliant strategist."

Even worse, this book does not mention any of Tukhachevsky's favorite brainchildren, which he, contrary to all rules and laws, launched into mass production without successfully passing field and military tests. So, for example, Tukhachevsky, together with the head of the Ostekhbyuro, the technical adventurer Bekauri, decided to turn the Red Army into an army of radio-controlled robots - remote-controlled aircraft, tanks, armored trains, armored tires, pillboxes, submarines. By the beginning of the war, about 300 units were riveted by remote-controlled torpedo boats alone. During the war, only two remote-controlled boats were used, and both times unsuccessfully. In total, more than a thousand radio-controlled "toys" of Comrade Bekauri were made, but not a single German suffered from them (not to be confused with radio-controlled mines created by the NKVD. - A.Sh.).

At the direction of Tukhachevsky, four artillery factories from 1931 to 1936 were tormented with universal guns, that is, guns, which were supposed to simultaneously serve as divisional and anti-aircraft guns. If we create universal guns, then we do not need anti-aircraft guns, Tukhachevsky considered. As a result, all the work on anti-aircraft guns caliber 20 – 37 mm was failed.

The funny thing is that in 1930, the company Rheinmetall secretly supplied the USSR with 2-cm and 3-cm anti-aircraft guns - the ones that successfully operated on airplanes, infantry and tanks throughout the war. The delivery included samples of the machines themselves, semi-finished products for the manufacture of two dozen products and a complete set of technological documentation. But Ostap, sorry, Mikhail Nikolayevich, carried - give him universal tools! As a result, by August 1 1939, the USSR was the only European country that did not have anti-aircraft guns. The Finns, Poles, Bulgarians, Czechs were, but we have not. Already after the arrest of Tukhachevsky, the VNKX 40-mm automatic rifle machine was urgently “blasted” and received the 37K 61-K and the 70-K marine. But in parts and on ships they began to arrive at the very end of 1940 of the year. And in June 1941, units of the Red Army defended themselves from low-flying German aircraft, mainly the Maxim 7,62-mm machine gun.

And further. At the direction of Tukhachevsky, another adventurer, Kurchevsky, has riveted over 5 thousand dynamo (recoilless) guns. In the Great Patriotic War, none of them were used. Moreover, all DRP (dynamo-reactive tools) of Kurchevsky were created according to the unsuitable “loaded barrel” scheme. Since 1943, not a single state of the world, including the USSR, has created recoilless guns under this scheme, preferring the “widened-chamber” scheme - a scheme with an inert mass.

In the 1920 year, even before the appointment of Tukhachevsky as the Deputy Commissar for Armaments, in the USSR a group of people, either technically inadequate or pests, began experiments on the creation of anchorage-free projectiles. And the marshal zealously supported the transfer of the Red Army to the bomber shells. As a result, dozens of guns from 37 to 368 mm caliber were redone, tens of thousands of such shells were made, which were continuously tested on artillery landfills right up to the end of 1938.

I am sure that now some “expert” will admire: “Oh, what brilliant gunners we had! In the middle of the 1920-ies created snapping shells! ”Calm down, gentlemen! Before the armor-piercing shells, these guys and the marshal did not think of it. They have a 368-mm three-ton gun fired with a high-explosive projectile already at 120 km! But the explosives in the shells were about the same as in the 76-mm projectile conventional battalion cannon.

In the Central State Archive of the Soviet Army, I found a letter from an engineer sent to the People's Commissar of Defense at the end of 1938. It is popular in numerous examples demonstrated falsification in testing of projectile shells from 1920 to 1938 year and the fact that these tests only confirmed the conclusions made by Russian gunners during firing as early as 1865 — 1875 at the Volkovo polygon range. And here is the conclusion: engineers began to deal with sabot shells in 1860-ies from despair, having failed to create an effective system for cutting the bore.

The first effective cutting system was created by Krupp engineers with the assistance of the Russian officers of the Artillery Division of the GAU (Main Artillery Directorate - NVO) in 1867 year. And after 10 years, they created a unique system of rifling the “sample 1877 of the year”, which is still being used with minor changes. After that, the leadership of the State Agrarian University considered the topic of the projectile projectiles forever closed. But the conclusions of the tsarist generals to the genial marshal were not a decree. However, the fact is that the engineer who sent the above note to Voroshilov sent a copy to Comrade Beria. However, in 1956 – 1958 years, Comrade Khrushchev posthumously rehabilitated all the fans of the projectile bombs.

ONCE AGAIN ABOUT SEVASTOPOL

Now about the pride of Russian sailors. About the heroic defense of Sevastopol 1941 – 1942 in Russia did not write just lazy. But, alas, so far no official historian has told about the true role of the people's commissar Kuznetsov and the commander of the Oktyabrsky Black Sea Fleet in defending Sevastopol. As you know, in the Black Sea, our glorious admirals were preparing to fight the superior forces of the Italian fleet. However, the "scoundrel" Mussolini was frightened and did not send a single warship to the Bosphorus. Therefore, the warhead with the Italian fleet was imposed "sovsekretno", valid to this day.

And the real tragedy of Sevastopol was the installation on the approaches to it about 6 thousand of their own mines. True, our admirals left three fairways - passages between minefields, but only one fairway could be used, and even that was too narrow. And according to this, from November 1941, Oktyabrsky regularly sent minesweepers "to expand the fairway," that is, to trawle by themselves the delivered mines.

On the "native" mines in 1941 – 1942, 12 of Soviet ships were killed and another two dozen were damaged. Without a mine, a cruiser or a destroyer could approach Sevastopol at a speed of 30 – 35 knots, and along the fairway, among the mines, he could follow only minesweepers in a three-four-node course. And this is all under the bombs of the Luftwaffe. But not a single enemy ship to minefields near Sevastopol even prodded. But the Soviet ships were undermined on their mines right up to the year 1955.

In addition, in November-December 1941 of the two admirals managed to remove half of the Black Sea Fleet ammunition from Sevastopol. Before the war, 99% of naval ammunition was stored in the arsenals of the main base. October also took out more than half of anti-aircraft artillery from Sevastopol to the Caucasus, despite the fact that there were many anti-aircraft guns of the country in Poti and Batumi. And the main thing is that the Germans did not bomb Poti or Batumi.

At the end of 1941, the People's Commissar Kuznetsov ordered the removal of the best transport ships from the Black Sea through the straits, allegedly needed for use in the north and the Pacific. And this is a very strange decision, since Nikolay Gerasimovich personally participated in the negotiations with the United States on the supply to the USSR of dozens of Liberty-class transport vessels for 10 thousand tonnes of displacement each. They were well used in other theaters of war, but the Black Sea Fleet was practically left without transport.

And now (after 1991 of the year), the professors of the Naval Academy, with foaming at the mouth, prove that by July 1942 could not be defended by Sevastopol due to the lack of ammunition and anti-aircraft artillery. And in order to deliver them there, Oktyabrsky did not have transport vessels ... I will not point to the ignorance of the calculation of these professors, because they ignore the mobilized transport vessels turned into minesweepers, the floating bases, and the fishing seiners and other small vessels do not take into account. But the main thing is that the naval professorship keeps silent about the fact that the Germans sank about 20% of transport ships, while the remaining 80% were sunk or disabled by their own mines or withdrawn through the Bosphorus by order of Kuznetsov.

... As a result, the Admiral Oktyabrsky, when the clock of Sevastopol was numbered, threw on a civilian raincoat, pulled a greasy cap on his ears, climbed the ladder into the Douglas and landed in the Caucasus an hour later. And in the area of ​​Cape Chersonese were thrown to the mercy of fate from 60 to 100 thousand heroic defenders of Sevastopol. There was not enough space for them either in the Douglas or on the deck ...

All of the above is described in detail in the books of dozens of independent authors, including mine. And again, service historians do not confirm or deny (with numbers) the circumstances of the surrender of Sevastopol. Saying, thus, without noticing or commenting on uncomfortable facts, they defend the honor of the Red Army and Navy. What, one wonders, from the truth? Then it is not even the “decline of military history science”, but its complete degradation. There is little interest in such a story. That is why costly, in excellent polygraphic execution of the book, official historians buy only libraries and the service historians themselves.

IN DAMAGE TO YOURSELF

Their right. But official historians who hide the blank spots of history from the people do great harm to the interests of the state. I will confine myself to a small example. Polish historians and the media have made the execution of 4 thousand Polish officers in Katyn the main national problem. Regardless of who did it, the Germans or the Russians, this is still not a very significant episode of the Second World War. The same British, for example, killed about 10 thousand French, their former allies, but for decades nobody remembers those killed, including France. But the voices of the Poles about Katyn, the Warsaw Uprising, the capture of Vilna in the 1944 year and the other turn into a demand of multi-billion compensation from Russia. But our academicians and generals have such trump cards against the Poles in the secret archives that publishing them will lead to many heart attacks and strokes in Warsaw.

Recall that at least 700 thousand ethnic Poles served in the Wehrmacht and the SS. By the way, among them was Joseph Tusk - the grandfather of the current chairman of the European Council, the former Prime Minister of Poland Donald Tusk. Donald began to make excuses that the grandfather was forcibly mobilized. But this, I'm sorry, babble. Forcibly, no Poles in the Wehrmacht and the SS did not mobilize. In order to undergo a forced mobilization, Joseph Tusk needed to prove to the Germans that he was not a Pole, but a natural German. By the way, the Germans checked it very strictly. But "he called himself a grudge - get into the body," go protect the Fatherland.

By the way, 53 thousands of ethnic Poles in the form of the Wehrmacht and the SS were captured by the Red Army. For some reason, our official historians have forgotten about them. And what happened to the hundreds of thousands of tons of chemical weapons that the Poles had prepared for the 1939 year to attack the Soviet Union? The answers are in our archives. But why is the Institute of Military History silent? Why is he silent about human testing of bacteriological weapons in the same Poland? By the way, one of the centers for testing this weapon was located in the Berg fort of the Brest Fortress. By the way, access to the fort under the specious pretext is closed so far.

Now about the allies who shared the Victory with us. London is unlikely to enjoy the publication of the correspondence of the British royal house with Hitler and other prominent Nazis. In April 1945, the British king George VI gave a secret assignment to his distant relative, Anthony Blunt, to steal all this correspondence in occupied Germany. Anthony brilliantly performed the task and presented to the king a report on the work done. Well, a copy of the report sent to his other chief - Lavrenty Pavlovich Beria. It is not hard to guess that all this correspondence today lies somewhere in the archives of the FSB. Why lies? When the head of the British royal house changes, the TNT equivalent of publishing correspondence will decrease by a factor of two. But official military historians still continue to play with the society in silence. As usual.
Author:
Originator:
http://nvo.ng.ru/polemic/2017-09-08/14_964_silence.html
111 comments
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  1. captain
    captain 10 September 2017 16: 00
    +18
    Dear Alexander! You raised a very interesting topic. But you forget. that if you open these archives and give the opportunity to write the truth to official historians, then the terrible truth will open. It turns out that we had more tanks than the Germans (and not worse), more aircraft, more artillery, more ships, etc. And why did we retreat to Stalingrad then? This question will not be easy to answer; because if you write the truth, it turns out. that our glorious CPSU was not a guiding and organizing force. That the order of selection and training was terrible, that all victories were decided by the blood of our soldiers and junior officers. That the unpreparedness of our troops led the fascists to Stalingrad. And then what will our historians of that time look like? But now the students and children of those historians and leaders of all stripes of the CPSU are in power. Well, they won’t let them "mess up" the bright name of their parents and teachers. Nobody will write the truth (people who wrote history do not need it), and ordinary people know that the war was won by blood (whatever our defenders of the general line of the CPSU would write). Chat with people who are simple and far from power. Thank you for the article.
    1. VS
      VS 10 September 2017 19: 53
      +17
      "" All victories were decided by the blood of our soldiers and junior officers. "

      - it started r ... it is through the pipes))))

      Silence about the "truth" of the history of the Second World War and, above all, the beginning of the Second World War - this is primarily the reluctance to change the "guilty"))
      And the guilty one in history is everything - one Stalin ... for now)))
      1. verner1967
        verner1967 11 September 2017 09: 46
        +3
        Quote: V.S.
        And the guilty one in history is everything - one Stalin ... for now)))
        Well, yes, "Rafik is not winy!"
        Quote: V.S.
        Silence about the "truth" of the history of the Second World War and, above all, the beginning of the Second World War - this is primarily the reluctance to change the "guilty"))

        And who do you think is guilty? We had another leader and another party at the helm (alternative)?
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 11 September 2017 18: 27
          +4
          Quote: verner1967
          And who do you think is guilty? We had another leader and another party at the helm (alternative)?

          Hehehehe ... then do not forget to write down all the achievements of that period on Stalin and the CPSU (b). And as defeats, only Stalin is to blame. And as a victory - this is the work of hands multinational soviet people, and not thanks, but contrary. ©
          In addition, I’m wondering - did Comrade Stalin personally, for example, take away the equipment for gun care from the fighters and shoot on the spot everyone who had just decided to clean a rifle or machine gun? Or was Comrade Beria doing this? smile
          In parts of 97 SD rifles manufactured in 1940. , which were on hand for no more than 4 months, up to 29% are reduced to a state of rust in the barrel, machine guns "DP" manufactured in 1939 to 14% also have a deterioration of the barrel channels.
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 12 September 2017 17: 43
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Hehehehe ... then do not forget to write down all the achievements of that period on Stalin and the CPSU (b).

            nobody takes away these achievements, they are not so great.
        2. Rostislav
          Rostislav 14 September 2017 18: 13
          +1
          So what is guilty of? That turned the neck of a monster, Europe, united under the heel of the Nazis?
          Or is it that, as in a fairy tale, he could not overturn this whole colossus in a week, with one wave of his hand, without losing a single soldier?
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 14 September 2017 18: 59
            +1
            Quote: Rostislav
            So what is guilty of?

            27-50 million dead, in the WWII this was not
            Quote: Rostislav
            rolled the monster’s neck

            did he fold
            Quote: Rostislav
            like in a fairy tale
            1. VS
              VS 15 September 2017 10: 29
              0
              "" 27-50 million dead, in the WWII this was not ""
              kindergarten damn))))
              you still say that the Germans in Moscow did not go to WWI))))

              "" he rolled up alone? ""

              but in your opinion-it's ONE people did everything-without Stalin and Beria?))
        3. VS
          VS 15 September 2017 10: 26
          0
          "" And who do you think is guilty? We had another leader and another party at the helm (alternative)? "

          T. This removes any responsibility from those who CONSCIOUSLY crap trying to bring down the tyrant and his power?))

          That is, if the brickwork rubble and other maple and other used lieutenants were crap before and in the first days of the war — hating the Soviet government and the tyrant personally before hitting the SSR — handing over the okrugs and divisions to the Germans for slaughter — is Stalin to blame anyway? )) And you know - I agree with you - he didn’t put such a scum on the wall .. our human tyrant was too humane before the Second World War.
    2. faiver
      faiver 10 September 2017 20: 13
      +19
      in what sense will it become clear? all this has long been clarified both about tanks and about planes and about artillery, and so what? the French also had more tanks than in the Wehrmacht and no worse than the German ones, they didn’t know how to use them ..., Can’t you tell me who had the troops prepared for combat operations with the massive use of tanks and aircraft? the answer is simple - no one, only France was blown away a month later despite the presence of British troops
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 10 September 2017 22: 02
        +4
        intrigued everything against everyone
        is always.
        how to stretch the thread "RF-white and fluffy" from the referendum on the return of the Crimea-Tauris and Churkin to the post-Poroshenko’s Outskirts (Medvedchuk or others will) and explain the correctness of the Kremlin’s actions in 2014 ???????????? ????? only then can archives be opened in the “Russian spring”, and without dodgy “historians” and “decided” it makes no sense to twist their underwear. and the us will open everything. are there "private" structures obliged to publish their bells and whistles on the outskirts?
        NEEDS A SMOOTH TRACK FOR THE BRAINS OF VISVIS TO DO NOT KICK - TAKE OUR OR NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW ON THOSE-EVENT EVENTS.
        THERE ARE NO SUCH FATHERING PEOPLE (OR THEY ARE LESSER THAN THAN THERE ON THE OTHER PARTIES - WILL BE CONCLUDED). only synchronous opening is still possible. will not quarrel from the past.
        money rule Today's money --- against yesterday's 20 (27) million lives
      2. Ulan
        Ulan 11 September 2017 20: 23
        +1
        Who himself does not want to know anything, for them it will become clear.
        At least I read articles on VO, this gentleman.
    3. iouris
      iouris 10 September 2017 23: 37
      +3
      Quote: captain
      the terrible truth will be revealed

      The truth can not be scary. The real choice between falsehood and truth. You should know the truth in order to learn from your (unfortunately) mistakes and to foresee your future (whether it is or not).
    4. brn521
      brn521 11 September 2017 09: 50
      +1
      Quote: captain
      It turns out that we had more tanks than the Germans (and not worse), more aircraft, more artillery, more ships, etc.

      Excellence in itself does not solve anything. How many times in the same computer strategies happened that I exceeded my neighbor at times and was technologically comparable. All the same, he merged the war, because the enemy gathered his troops in a fist and beat, from where they did not wait. It was my communications that collapsed and the production facilities were covered with a copper basin, depriving the army of upkeep. And my garrisons scattered along the border were broken up in parts. The aggressor has a huge advantage by default, especially if he is superior to you in intelligence, and his economy is already permanently tuned in a military fashion.
    5. Gardamir
      Gardamir 11 September 2017 13: 47
      +1
      Dear Alexander!
      Aleksander Borisovich Shirokorad (born 1947, Moscow) - a modern Russian military specialist, publicist. The author of several dozens of popular science books on artillery and military equipment. His work on military-technical issues in the field of artillery weapons is recognized as authoritative (Shirokorad is one of the leading specialists in domestic artillery). Books on the history of Russia are criticized for being overly journalistic, such as inaccuracies in the information provided, the use of outdated information, fiction and secondary. At the same time, Shirokorad uses citations of other authors in his works without specifying sources, sometimes reprinting verbatim paragraphs from their works.
      1. Curious
        Curious 11 September 2017 14: 39
        +2
        For which he received the literary pseudonym Shirokokrad.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 11 September 2017 18: 32
          +3
          Pomnitsa, in the mid-90s there was still some kind of dark story with archives and a book on the history of one of our defense design bureaus and its products ...

          Yes, and further complaints about the work of ABS were ... for example, in 2014:
          But as for plagiarism ... The phrases familiar to me immediately met in places where it is said about artillery of the 16-17th centuries.
          S.22-23 little books - this is a retelling of my article with a link (published in the Baltic Question). This is still okay (but still - 2 pages of scribble and one link to my article, all other links to supposedly used sources and literature are stolen from my same article :)
          S.80-81 - retelling of my dissertation with reference. Evaluate the volumes of the “retelling” - I simply stored 2 pages from the pieces of the dissertation, shuffling a few paragraphs, though with reference to me. But this is also bearable - it can be seen that the author is “catching up” with the volume by simply copying from my Word file the work that he obviously bought on the Internet.
          He pulled other paragraphs from different places of my dissertation. This once again testifies to the fact that Shirokorad simply copied pieces from the text of the dissertation, without even bothering to edit them. He took another piece not from my dissertation, but ... from my article.

          http://alexuslob.livejournal.com/115193.html
      2. Dead duck
        Dead duck 11 September 2017 16: 13
        +6
        Quote: Gardamir
        Books on the history of Russia are criticized for being overly journalistic, such as inaccuracies in the information provided, the use of outdated information, fiction and secondary. At the same time, Shirokorad uses citations of other authors in his works without specifying sources, sometimes reprinting verbatim paragraphs from their works

        Nuna was a highlight ... he is still an inventor.
        Lyubitsen RenTV.
    6. Outsider V.
      Outsider V. 12 September 2017 14: 46
      +1
      Quote: captain
      ... it turns out. that our glorious CPSU was not a guiding and organizing force ...


      The CPSU could not be a guiding and organizing force during the Second World War, for it was only in 1952 that Pavrtia received this name. Prior to that (since 1925) the party was called the CPSU (B.).
  2. irazum
    irazum 10 September 2017 16: 11
    +5
    It seems to me that those who are really interested in history should take into account different points of view on certain events. Another thing is that many historians on both sides try to draw the events that have taken place to their point of view. And this is already far from objectivity.
    1. VS
      VS 10 September 2017 19: 55
      +6
      "" Those who are really interested in history should take into account different points of view on certain events. ""

      - Yes, where does the "point of view" ..)) The matter is in the texture of events and not in terms of view on them. The Kuznetsovs and others were reprimanded. Admirals - this is just a fact. Other future marshals were reprimanded at the beginning of the Second World War. Later they appointed Stalin as the guilty - this is a fact)))
      1. verner1967
        verner1967 11 September 2017 09: 54
        +4
        Quote: V.S.
        Other future marshals of Victory were enlightened at the beginning of the Second World War, who later appointed Stalin as the guilty - this is a fact

        "Cadres decide everything!" Who said? Who appointed these victory marshals to their posts? And who is to blame then? For some reason, the successes of industrial development in the 30s and the Victory in the Great Patriotic War and even space flights have their own author (guess who?), And failures at the beginning of the war are attributed to everyone, but not to the head of state
  3. irazum
    irazum 10 September 2017 16: 12
    +7
    Thank you for the article!
  4. creak
    creak 10 September 2017 16: 15
    +20
    Interestingly, Shirokorad is true to himself - not embarrassed in expressions, with his inherent bluntness, sometimes turning into rudeness, he continues to expose the conspiracy of silence of domestic historians - and Shirokorad’s voice is just a voice crying in the desert ....
    I didn’t even want to comment on his next discovery, but when I read his passage about Fort Berg and hundreds of thousands of tons of chemical weapons and tests of bacteriological agents, I decided to respond anyway ....
    Fort "Count Berg " after the PMV it was used to deploy Polish troops .... After the Brest Fortress was transferred to the Red Army, the personnel of one of the divisions of the 131 artillery regiment were stationed there (probably the soldiers were sleeping next to the chemical munitions) ... Did the author himself understand what he wrote?
    And after the war, the fort housed the Brest meat factory (where was the bacteriological weapon tested?) And, accordingly, anyone was not supposed to walk on its territory ....
    With Shirokorad, everything is clear - any sci-fi nonsense and the overthrow of all authorities - this is his corporate identity, graphomania - this is serious and this is a problem of Shirokorad, but why then why does VO regularly treat us with the next batch of pseudoscientific nonsense?
    This mystery is great ... recourse
    1. Glory1974
      Glory1974 10 September 2017 18: 41
      +7
      Thanks for the clarification on Fort Berg. I did not know and was ready to believe Shirokorada
      But in principle, the topic is correct. It is necessary to open archives, otherwise it is difficult to combat the falsification of history. Those that can hurt do not open. Otherwise, Western historians, writing different nonsense, will eventually write a different story.
      1. super.ufu
        super.ufu 10 September 2017 23: 47
        0
        Well, and what kind of archive is personally classified, share it, where did you go and drove you away?
        1. Glory1974
          Glory1974 11 September 2017 14: 50
          +2
          The results of the commission's work following the results of the Soviet-Finnish war are classified. The result of the work of the commission on the Prokhorov battle is classified. This is just a hint that interests me. The list can be continued for a long time.
          1. super.ufu
            super.ufu 11 September 2017 16: 06
            0
            The results of the commission's work following the results of the Soviet-Finnish war are classified. The result of the work of the commission on the Prokhorov battle is classified. This is just a hint that interests me. The list can be continued for a long time.

            and what is there, in these two questions, what do you need to know exactly from the commissions?
            why doesn’t Zumulin \\\ Kiselyov, Irincheev or other documents have this, which leaves a terrible secret?
            well, losses? Yes, please, how did they advance under the prokhorovka? yes please, who screwed up? easy, how many Germans? not a problem, how much we lost, not a question,
            so it doesn’t let you sleep?
            1. Glory1974
              Glory1974 11 September 2017 16: 12
              +1
              does not give sleep, what is classified.
              1. super.ufu
                super.ufu 11 September 2017 16: 15
                0
                well, that is, banal laziness and show-offs, if in Russian, as required.
                and all the screams about the closed archives are from laziness.
                1. Glory1974
                  Glory1974 11 September 2017 16: 26
                  +1
                  So you say that all archives are open?
                  1. super.ufu
                    super.ufu 11 September 2017 16: 30
                    0
                    I affirm that if there is a desire, then most of the issues can be resolved by searching in neighboring cases / archives.
                    most likely, with due diligence, anyone can find a lot of things, even with "closed" archives.
                    1. Glory1974
                      Glory1974 11 September 2017 17: 00
                      +1
                      Something can be found. But we are talking about the fact that archives are closed on certain topics. Therefore, they write about what much, according to indirect data. And specifics are needed so that there is no other interpretation.
                      1. super.ufu
                        super.ufu 11 September 2017 19: 15
                        0
                        is it a mantra, once again that you have not been personally given and is this a white spot in history?

                        .Therefore, they write who is in what much, according to indirect data.

                        I wrote differently
                        looking in neighboring cases / archives.
                        as I understand it, you haven’t been anywhere, and therefore you don’t know that the same document can be stamped in file No. 1 and is free in file No. 2 only because it is a kilometer in number 1 and not in the second.
                        or stamped in the Russian State Archives of Artists, and declassified in TsAMO.
                        or for example, a stamped loss report is easily compensated by loss lists for a specified date, etc.

                        I repeat, with a cry of "archives closed," laziness and unwillingness to work are camouflaged!
                    2. Glory1974
                      Glory1974 15 September 2017 13: 09
                      0
                      Once again, what have you personally not been given and is this a white spot in history?

                      The reasons for the unsuccessful actions in the initial period of the Soviet-Finnish war. The results of the commission are classified. The final report with suggestions to address the shortcomings is partial.
                      1. super.ufu
                        super.ufu 15 September 2017 22: 21
                        0
                        what is the problem, did you work in iRan? there is full of 41 material, who didn’t let you go in, name your name
                        in TsAMo what affairs on 41 didn’t give you personally, is it possible to inventory?
      2. VS
        VS 11 September 2017 08: 08
        +3
        "" e, which may harm, do not open. Otherwise, Western historians, writing different nonsense, will eventually write another story ""

        - not so simple. Absolute mystery, in principle, does not exist. And to hide everything is impossible. And the example with the books of Rezun - an example of such concealment of inconvenient facts of history - at the beginning of the Second World War. In the Soviet Socialist Republic, under the Khrushshshchev Zhuokvy, everything that was possible was transferred on June 22, Yu was appointed a tyrant to blame for everything, they ousted such ingenious strategists, and the British helped Rezun to write what was - practically the truth about the reasons for our defeats at the beginning of the Second World War. More precisely - using the terrible and unpleasant truth for the strategists and others. The CPSU with their despising Stalin - they composed something else - it’s not Stalin who watered it, but the Soviet Socialist Republic-Russia. The result is that in the dill, Rezun’s delirium went off with a bang and is being replicated in full ..
        Our strategists did not actually prepare for defense, but an immediate offensive - IN RESPONSE to the fall of Germany - and Rezun, with the help of the Englishmen, turned this about - into a desire to attack first - and, as a result, WWII blamed the Soviet Socialist Republic!

        So - withholding the truth is fraught with consequences sometimes worse than the discovery of the truth. But we CANNOT officially whitewash the tyrant Stalin and that means - they’ll go to shit - they’re even more mired in the lies but the real truth about the causes of the June 22 tragedy - they will NEVER talk - call the real perpetrators. And it’s not that there is anyone who cares about the mental suffering of the heirs of the real culprits - After all, it immediately “whitewashed” Stalin, but this cannot be done in the current Russian Federation))). Or we have to admit - capitalism - that we now live in and that has replaced socialism with the hands of humpbacks and others. EBN with their lackeys that grabbed public property and gave it for vouchers to Americans under outward administration - this is shit and we must return to socialism of the times Stalin and Beria))))
      3. Dead duck
        Dead duck 11 September 2017 16: 17
        +7
        Quote: glory1974
        Thanks for the clarification on Fort Berg. I did not know and was ready to believe Shirokorada

        So he has a favorite way (of the author of the article) - to take a grain of truth, add a bunch of different excerpts (mishmash), and heartily season with his inventions.
    2. VS
      VS 10 September 2017 19: 57
      +1
      "" With Shirokorad, everything is clear - any sci-fi nonsense and the overthrow of all authorities - this is his corporate identity, graphomania - this is serious and this is the problem of Shirokorad "" - did you refute it with the fort and the rest as given by the facts?))
    3. Torquemada
      Torquemada 10 September 2017 22: 19
      +3
      I will add that on the territory of the Count Graff fort a “fortress-type refrigerator designed for 100 thousand pounds of meat and 2 million servings of canned meat” was built.
      100% rumors of bacteriological weapons were spread, so as not to climb canned goods to steal. wink
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 11 September 2017 07: 43
        +1
        I liked the article very much!
        But, now after explanations about the refrigerator, doubts come ----- and suddenly there is still no conformity.
      2. tasha
        tasha 11 September 2017 08: 01
        +2
        He himself wondered where the legs were coming from. Found an article on Polish biological weapons. Here is a piece:
        At the end of the 1920's, cooperation between Poland and Japan began in the field of the creation of biological weapons. So, in 1936 in Warsaw, a closed conference was held, at which the Japanese delegation arrived from the main base of the Office for Supply and Prevention of the Kwantung Army in Harbin. During the conference, Dr. Golba read a report on the possibility of infection of people during the fighting by the causative agents of typhoid fever, typhus, dysentery, anthrax and glanders. It is curious that the conference was conducted not in Japanese, not in Polish, but in Russian!

        In 1937, tests of biological weapons began in one of the forts of the Brest Fortress. After the first successful experiments on animals, the head of the laboratory, Lieutenant Colonel Tadeusz Pelczynski, demanded that human research be carried out. Confirmation that human experiments were conducted in Brest is a letter sent by Dr. Golba to the Prosecutor General of Poland: “I actually conducted experiments with pathogenic microbes on individuals at the experimental station in Brest on the Bug. This is a fact that I do not deny ... Before making the experiments, my superiors claimed that the persons over whom these experiments will be conducted are sentenced to death and their cases are not subject to appeal. ”

        After the death of seven experimental people, their bodies were dissolved in special baths with acid.

        20 September 1939 Brest was taken by German troops, but Polish biologists managed to escape. A few days later the Germans left, and units of the Red Army entered Brest.


        That is, the tests could be carried out, but not as large as those of the Japanese military.

        Link to the article for the curious:
        http://sozidatel.org/articles/territoriya-istorii
        / Xnumx-chto-pozvoleno-yupiteru-ne-pozvoleno-byiku-
        ili-pochemu-sostoyalsya-protsess-v-habarovske-no-
        ne-sostoyalsya-v-varshave.html
      3. your1970
        your1970 11 September 2017 08: 13
        +4
        I will add that on the territory of the Count Graff fort a “fortress-type refrigerator designed for 100 thousand pounds of meat and 2 million servings of canned meat” was built.-the first sign of the presence of bacteriological weapons according to the Amer’s manual of the 1950s is precisely the presence disproportionately powerful bases for growing / slaughtering / processing animals, especially birds. To breed bacteria, you need chicken eggs and a strong meat broth - for culture media. And you need a lot of meat ...

        Z.Y. Therefore, Semipalatinsk feel stew and was in the whole Soviet army, tasty (I almost wrote "infection" feel ) was ..
        1. Black5Raven
          Black5Raven 11 September 2017 22: 33
          0
          Quote: your1970
          For the reproduction of bacteria, chicken eggs are needed

          They are more for the reproduction of viruses, bacteria easier to grow on other media
  5. Evdokim
    Evdokim 10 September 2017 18: 32
    +4
    History is not only white, but also black, and even smells very disgusting. And we must not forget the first, nor the second, nor the third. But if you look at everything in a black light, then this is no longer a story.
  6. Yuri Guliy
    Yuri Guliy 10 September 2017 18: 34
    +8
    The publication inspires hope that the new generation (including future military professionals) will study the real history of our victories and defeats, rather than invented campaigns like "we won anyway." Special thanks to the author for the truth about Sevastopol. We, Sevastopol residents know all this from relatives and friends, but the rest of Russia has a somewhat distorted idea of ​​defense heroes and scumbags-idiots who excitedly supported the authorities.
    1. faiver
      faiver 10 September 2017 20: 27
      +4
      they won’t study new generations in my nichrome, God forbid, if you read revered cheat on Wikipedia, I’m sorry for my French ... hi
    2. Gardamir
      Gardamir 11 September 2017 14: 13
      0
      foolish scoundrels
      Are you talking about imperial times?
  7. gray
    gray 10 September 2017 19: 22
    +10
    Quote: captain
    Dear Alexander! You raised a very interesting topic. But you forget. that if you open these archives and give the opportunity to write the truth to official historians, then the terrible truth will open. It turns out that we had more tanks than the Germans (and not worse), more aircraft, more artillery, more ships, etc. And why did we retreat to Stalingrad then? This question will not be easy to answer; because if you write the truth, it turns out. that our glorious CPSU was not a guiding and organizing force. That the order of selection and training was terrible, that all victories were decided by the blood of our soldiers and junior officers. That the unpreparedness of our troops led the fascists to Stalingrad. And then what will our historians of that time look like? But now the students and children of those historians and leaders of all stripes of the CPSU are in power. Well, they won’t let them "mess up" the bright name of their parents and teachers. Nobody will write the truth (people who wrote history do not need it), and ordinary people know that the war was won by blood (whatever our defenders of the general line of the CPSU would write). Chat with people who are simple and far from power. Thank you for the article.

    Hello. I’ll just say it because I’m tired of commenting on this. The most powerful European armies fell in front of Germany. The new tactics and experience worked out in battles made it possible to level all the advantages of the USSR over Germany.

    In the Second World War against Germany they held out:
    Denmark - 6 hours;
    Holland - 5 days;
    Yugoslavia - 11 days;
    Belgium - 18 days;
    Greece - 24 days;
    Poland - 27 days;
    France - 1 month and 12 days;
    Norway - 2 months and 1 day;
    The USSR - 4 years, as a result, Germany capitulated. The losses of the USSR are overwhelmingly associated with total genocide directed against the civilian population of the country (see the OST plan). Self-flagellation is tired, and I see everything worked out (all of Europe profiled its independence except Britain) and the most important thing is to win without the USSR. The main postulate of Hitler in a programmatic address to the army before Drang nach Osten is: “Soldiers, I am liberating you from the ancient chimera, called conscience for the glory of the Great Reich!” That is, do what you want and they did.
    1. VS
      VS 10 September 2017 19: 59
      +2
      "" Hello. I’ll say it simply because I’m tired of commenting on this. The most powerful European armies fell in front of Germany. ""

      - i.e. the facts cited by the author- lies and in no way influenced the course of the war?)))
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 10 September 2017 22: 15
        0
        part of the picture, there were other reasons for doing just that and not otherwise. they are also kept under the bar (?)
        mentality and "algorithms" 70-80 years ago were dr
        the horses were counting on speed.
      2. urganov
        urganov 11 September 2017 10: 25
        0
        show this quote from the author
        Quote: V.S.
        facts cited by the author - lies and NO influence on the course of the war
        ,
        or do not attribute to the author своих thoughts.
    2. iouris
      iouris 10 September 2017 23: 57
      +4
      Do not forget that the whole of Europe, the modern EU, opposed the USSR. The first similar campaign was undertaken under the leadership of Napoleon. For this, everyone surrendered to Hitler in order to unite against the USSR. This is a tradition. Here is an incomplete list: Dutch, French, Czechs, Slovaks, Magyars, Romanians, Spaniards, Italians. During the overseas campaign on the Red Army against it on the side of Hitler also fought: Poles, Western Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians. The French and Czechs provided the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe with advanced equipment and weapons, and the entire EU supplied the invaders with food, spa treatment and relaxation.
      1. Gransasso
        Gransasso 11 September 2017 00: 16
        +6
        And how many divisions put up, for example, Holland against the USSR? Or Spain ... or France ...



        The occupied territories of the USSR also supplied Germany from 41 to 44 years with food and so on ... and a cheap labor force ..... well, about a million Soviet citizens in one form or another as part of the Wehrmacht ...... how to deal with them. write to the EU too?
        1. VS
          VS 11 September 2017 08: 23
          +3
          "" The occupied territories of the USSR also supplied Germany from 41 to 44 years with food, etc. ... and cheap workers ..... ""

          not compare anyway with Hitler's EU)) slave labor in the quarry and workers at Panther machine tools - this eats compare horseradish and finger)))

          "" a million Soviet citizens in one form or another as part of the Wehrmacht ...... what to do with them. Will we write to the EU too? ""

          there were more than SUCH Poles and other Czechs with the French?
          1. Gransasso
            Gransasso 11 September 2017 14: 16
            +3
            Much more .... how much more the same Poles of the Spaniards and so on fought on the side of the USSR and not against it .... do not write nonsense
        2. Gardamir
          Gardamir 11 September 2017 14: 05
          +1
          And how many divisions put up, for example, Holland against the USSR? Or Spain ... or France ...
          for example here
          https://topwar.ru/27724-protiv-sssr-voevala-vsya-
          europa.html
          or here
          So, the Germans - 2 389 560, the Hungarians - 513 767, the Romanians - 187 370, the Austrians - 156 682, the Czechs and Slovaks - 69 977, the Poles - 60 280, the Italians - 48 957, the French - 23 136, the Croats - 21 822, Moldovans - 14 129, Jews - 10 173, Dutch - 4 729, Finns - 2 377, Belgians - 2 010, Luxembourgers - 1652, Danes - 457, Spaniards - 452, Gypsies - 383, Norwegians - 101, Swedes - 72.

          And these are only those who survived and were captured. Actually, significantly more Europeans fought against us.
          1. Gransasso
            Gransasso 11 September 2017 14: 10
            +4
            Dutch - 4, Finns - 729, Belgians - 2, Luxembourgers - 377, Danes - 2, Spaniards - 010, Gypsies - 1652, Norwegians - 457, Swedes - 452.




            Himself not ashamed?
            1. Gardamir
              Gardamir 11 September 2017 14: 17
              0
              Himself not ashamed?
              good discussion! Why should I be ashamed? This is data on prisoners of war.
              1. Gransasso
                Gransasso 11 September 2017 14: 28
                +4
                For demagoguery ..... to extradite several thousand or even tens of thousands of people from several tens of European countries with a population of several hundred million on the side of Hitler - for the EU against the USSR - means to be an ignorant provocateur and nothing more
                1. Gardamir
                  Gardamir 11 September 2017 14: 40
                  +2
                  several thousand
                  Yes please

                  For military operations against the USSR, the Romanian 3rd Army (mountain and cavalry corps) and the 4th Army (3 infantry corps), with a total number of about 220 thousand, were intended.
                  still.
                  The Italian expeditionary corps for the war against the USSR was created on July 10, 1941, consisting of one cavalry and two infantry divisions, with corps artillery and two air groups (reconnaissance and fighter) .In total, there were 62 thousand soldiers and officers in the corps. There were 220 guns, 60 machine gun wedges, aviation - 50 fighters and 20 scouts. In September 1941, the Italian corps fought on the Dnieper, on a 100-km section in the Dneprodzerzhinsk area.
                  On June 30, 1941, Finnish troops (11 infantry divisions and 4 brigades, totaling about 150 thousand people) went on the offensive, in the direction of Vyborg and Petrozavodsk. By the end of August 1941, the Finns reached the approaches to Leningrad on the Karelian Isthmus, and by the beginning of October 1941 occupied almost the entire territory of Karelia (except for the coast of the White Sea and Zaonezhie)
                  In light of this, Hungary with its Carpathian group of several brigades of 40 thousand is really nonsense. Next come the regiments and battalions. But they all fought against us. And not only at the front ...
                  1. Gransasso
                    Gransasso 11 September 2017 14: 55
                    +2
                    So what?. In World War I, no less than European countries fought against the Russian Empire. They fought millions of soldiers. And not just a few thousand renegades .... Was the EU also against Russia?) ... and in almost any other war before that. ....


                    And yes ... do not tell me thanks to which genius the same Finland or Romania found themselves among the enemies of the USSR?
                    1. Gardamir
                      Gardamir 11 September 2017 15: 07
                      +2
                      So what?
                      France, Russia, the USA, Serbia, Italy, Romania, Great Britain fought in World War I against Germany, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Bulgaria.
                      You have amused about geniuses. But they asked your genius to suspend the mobilization.
                      And by the way, the border with Finland was still pushed back, so it made sense.
                      1. Gransasso
                        Gransasso 11 September 2017 15: 16
                        +2
                        And in the second, the USA, England, France, the USSR fought against Germany, Italy, Romania, Finland and Hungary ..... I do not see any fundamental changes ......





                        If it seems normal for you to “push back” your borders at the expense of your neighbors, then why are you surprised that they will react and become your enemies?
                    2. Gardamir
                      Gardamir 11 September 2017 15: 43
                      +2
                      If it seems normal for you to “push back” your borders at the expense of your neighbors
                      then you are against the fact that our Crimea?
  8. faiver
    faiver 10 September 2017 20: 17
    +10
    the question raised in the article is serious enough, but the article itself is written in such a style that it repels, I don’t like people who think to themselves that they are the ultimate truth ... hi
  9. Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 10 September 2017 23: 21
    +3
    Recall that at least 700 thousand ethnic Poles served in the Wehrmacht and the SS.
    at least one Polish ethnic formation, call it more of a battalion ... I have no doubt that the vast majority of these "Poles" were Folkdeutsche - Germans who lived in chopped-off Poland after 1 World Territory
    1. iouris
      iouris 10 September 2017 23: 46
      +1
      Not only Germans, but also Poles who had the right to Reich citizenship. In particular, dad D. Tusk.
      1. Stirbjorn
        Stirbjorn 11 September 2017 09: 18
        +3
        the conversation is not about Tusk’s dad, but about 700 thousand "ethnic Poles" - the Scandinavians, Albanians, Croats, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians, French, Balts and so on had ethnic divisions of the SS, but out of 700 thousand "ethnic Poles" one is not scraped together. In fact, the Poles were exterminated, like all the Slavs - primarily the elite, this is described in detail in the book "The Black Order of the SS" (Heene Heinz)
        And although Canaris's subordinates were collecting materials about the criminal cases of the SS operational groups, a shaft of terror continued to roll over unfortunate Poland. Hunters for people from the operational groups and teams enthusiastically stated the literal fulfillment of Hitler's instructions:
        “Persons from the leadership in Poland, identified by us, are being destroyed. Those who grow up will be taken into account by us and eliminated after a certain period of time. ”
        With lists in their hands, the Heydrich boys arrested Polish teachers, doctors, officials, clergy, landowners and businessmen and collected them in national camps, in a number of which these people were annihilated. The ghee factory in Torun, the mill in Bromberg (Bydgoszcz), the Soldau and Stutthof camps, and the seventh fort in Poznan became the last stages of their lives for thousands of Poles.
        “Our task is to eliminate radical elements,” said SS Sturmbunfuhrer Raeder, who led the Bromberg operations team. The "radicals" were primarily considered Polish nationalists, members of the Westmarken Union (western regions) and Polish chauvinists, who demanded the annexation of certain regions of the Reich.
        The fact that, for example, in the Pelplin diocese of 690 well-known clergymen, two-thirds were arrested speaks of persecution of priests. The same Raeder reported to Berlin: "Most of the Catholic priests are eliminated."
        The historian Martin Brosstat, who analyzes German politics in Poland, noted that in the first months of German rule alone, the number of victims there reached several tens of thousands. Heydrich declared on September 27, 1939: "Not more than three percent remains from the Polish leadership in the occupied regions."
    2. IvanTheTerrible
      IvanTheTerrible 11 September 2017 09: 42
      +2
      And do not forget the Silesians, whose fathers fought for the Kaiser in World War I.
  10. iouris
    iouris 10 September 2017 23: 44
    0
    There is a comment. Liberty-type transport vessels were built to deliver goods only one way. They were built (baked) on conveyors. The convoy crews returned in a safe way, while the ships remained in our northern ports. Due to the imperfection of engineering design methods, the real safety factor laid down by American engineers turned out to be significant, therefore, in the USSR, these vessels continued to be widely used after the war. About this, in particular, wrote Viktor Konetsky, a writer "on the job" author of marine stories, one of which formed the basis of the script for the film "Striped Flight". He himself went on such a ship.
    1. Gransasso
      Gransasso 11 September 2017 00: 07
      +4
      A source of enchanting information about the "disposability" of Liberty-You transports? ... or is there anyone else who has shared such revelations with you ...
      1. your1970
        your1970 11 September 2017 11: 37
        +1
        "The pace of production during the war grew to fantastic levels - if the first ship, SS Patrick Henry, was built 244 days, then by the end of 1942 the construction of transport took an average of 70 days, and in 1944 - 42 days. The absolute record for the speed of construction belongs to the SS Robert E. Peary vessel, which was built, from bookmark to launch, in 4 days and 15,5 hours belay belay .The contract value of one transport was 2 million dollars, the actual cost depended on the shipyard and the year and ranged from 1 to 200 thousand dollars .. "
        “For the first time, the mass production of welded hulls has begun, shipbuilders have not yet mastered the peculiarities of working with welding - unlike a riveted seam, a weld cannot stop crack propagation in a metal. If a crack arose from the stresses arising in the skin, it propagated until the ship didn’t fall in half. During the war, they developed a reinforcement scheme that reduced the likelihood of critical stress, but alas, they didn’t completely solve the problem. Many Libertys ended up lounging in the sea in bad weather, and such cases occurred up to 1970's Years.
        Out of 38 “Soviet” vessels, Valery Chkalov (both), Bryansk, Kherson broke, Jean Zhores almost broke, crashed seven times due to Vitebsk cracks, many others had problems with the strength of the hull .
        "From 1942 to 1945, of the 2510 built, 253 vehicles died (9%). Of the first 153 ships launched in the first half of 1942, at the height of the Battle of the Atlantic, 34 died during the first year of service and 13 more until the end of the war 31% Losses From Sailors of the US Merchant Fleet during the War every 26th died highest loss percentage among all the US military branchesnot excluding the marines. "
        Under the Soviet flag in different years went 54 ships like Liberty. The vast majority of them (38 + 3 tankers) were obtained by Lend-Lease and used to transport Lend-Lease cargo by the Pacific route.

        Quote: Gransasso
        Gransasso Today, 00:07 ↑
        A source of enchanting information about the "disposability" of Liberty-You transports? ... or is there anyone else who has shared such revelations with you ...
        -you just iouris and wrote, that the ships were delivered on a land-lease and did not mean technical disposability, but disposability as a unit of equipment transferred to the USSR (if it survives, then it will be clear what to do with it)
        1. Gransasso
          Gransasso 11 September 2017 14: 36
          +1
          Yes? ... how many of the US-built Libertys were lent out and how many remained in the US ownership?



          And also. Of the lost - how much in percentage for technical reasons and how many were sunk by the Germans.



          And then they threw everything into one boiler
  11. super.ufu
    super.ufu 10 September 2017 23: 49
    0
    . But, alas, so far no official historian has told about the true role of the People's Commissar Kuznetsov and the commander of the Black Sea Fleet of Oktyabrsky in the defense of Sevastopol

    Kin Isaev with a book about Crimea by the author is not noticed?)))
    1. VS
      VS 11 September 2017 08: 20
      +1
      "" Kin Isaev with a book about Crimea by the author was not noticed?))) ""

      this kin - will not show uncomfortable weight by definition))) Look at him in LJ - he is there - he was at the book fair and discovered the pads for himself .. sorry - the answers of the generals of the Pokrovsky commission !!! He sits in TsAMO, he has long been bleeding ears about these answers - take the wise guy - study when you climb to write praises about Zhukov and his genius in pre-war plans, etc. - but he stubbornly ignored them and only when he didn’t get away, they stuck his nose collection of answers - made surprised eyes - they turn out to be SOURCE!))) you can work with them !!)))
      Shirokorad said - "" not a single official historian spoke about the true role of the People's Commissar Kuznetsov and the commander of the Black Sea Fleet of Oktyabrsky in the defense of Sevastopol "")) Isaev yours - alas, he became such an "official historian"))) And even more so - show shoals Kuznetsovs and their stupidity - those who work in IVI will not become. The same Daines did his best - “The 41st Commandments” composed - ALL boxed Pavlovs defeated ZAPOVO in full) It turns out that since someone “rehabilitated” them there, it means they are not guilty - you should stupidly believe the clowns that under Khrushchev Zhukov otmazyvayut all this gang)))
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 11 September 2017 18: 49
      +2
      Quote: super.ufu
      Kin Isaev with a book about Crimea by the author is not noticed?)))

      Isaeva ABS traditionally does not like. For the good doctor Guillotin had the audacity to convict the General Staff in ignorance of the main area of ​​interest - artillery. And not some subtle moments like the fifth modification of the divisional gun, which did not go into series, and the first use in the Second World War of unit guns of special power - 12 "howitzers model 1915
      For I wrote ABS once
      305-mm howitzers for the first time after 1917 were used in battles on the Karelian Isthmus in June 1944

      Wrote - and calmed down. But in vain. For he dug a cursed kin in the archives of the open, TsAMO named, data on 331 OAD OM RGK, which was already used in the summer of 1942 to support the offensive 33 A, and then in the battles for Rzhev (having managed to launch 60 12 "shells on Rzhev one day) And in 1943 the same division was noted in the Smolensk operation. smile
      1. VS
        VS 13 September 2017 20: 37
        0
        "" Isaev ABSH traditionally does not like. For the good doctor Guillotin had the audacity to convict APS of ignorance ""

        ))) alas - Isaev himself suffers from this ailment - if he doesn’t write enthusiastic praises in his LJ, he will soon be banned)) And even if he encroaches on his "red button" about which he carries nonsense with or without - it’s certainly banned forever) )) And just try asking Isaev why he never writes according to pre-war plans and even more so - on the events of June - what happened there every day from June 1 - how the troops were withdrawn in connection with the expectation of an German attack, etc. - and the war with him immediately begins on June 22, and BEFORE this type, nothing important and interesting happened - damn forever))))

        Alas, practically all “historians” and even more so with regalia (obtained under the roof of those whom they still hate) - suffer from delusions of grandeur and know-it-all - I read like about a dozen books about the army and don’t know everything about - and criticize them - myself more expensive)))
  12. parusnik
    parusnik 11 September 2017 07: 59
    +4
    You can agree or disagree with A.B.Shirokorad, but in many ways he is right ..
  13. Snakebyte
    Snakebyte 11 September 2017 09: 24
    +3
    Do you know what the difference is?
    Official historians did not lie. They were silent about "inconvenient" events or facts, but did not lie.
    In contrast to the "independent", which push, or even directly distort the facts to confirm their "theory".
  14. a
    a 11 September 2017 09: 35
    +2
    Very interesting! Need to continue, white spots should not remain. Many thanks to the author!
  15. IvanTheTerrible
    IvanTheTerrible 11 September 2017 09: 40
    +3
    Recall that at least 700 thousand ethnic Poles served in the Wehrmacht and the SS.

    More than a million Russians - so what? Russians - fascist people, Hitler people?
    1. Operator
      Operator 11 September 2017 12: 08
      +2
      The difference is that we consider the Russians who served in the Wehrmacht (Khivi - auxiliary personnel) and the SS (combat personnel) to be traitors, and 700 of thousands of ethnic Poles who served there in Poland are considered "fighters against the terrible Russian aggressors that threatened civilized Europe "

      We need to cut off all economic ties with Poland as soon as possible, first of all, stop all railway communication and pump oil and gas through its territory. Poland should be returned to the situation of 1939 of the year - an agrarian appendage of developed European countries.

      Germany will help us in this after the demand for reparations from Poland.
      1. IvanTheTerrible
        IvanTheTerrible 11 September 2017 12: 31
        +1
        The difference is that we consider the Russians who served in the Wehrmacht (Khivi - auxiliary personnel) and the SS (combat personnel) to be traitors, and 700 of thousands of ethnic Poles who served there in Poland are considered "fighters against the terrible Russian aggressors that threatened civilized Europe "

        1. Most of them (if not all) are Silesians, whose fathers and grandfathers fought on the side of Germany in the First World War.
        2. Nobody considers them heroes in modern Poland; the pantheon of heroes there is exclusively staffed by the Craiova Army and “damned soldiers”.
        1. Operator
          Operator 11 September 2017 14: 01
          +1
          Come on - the NDP in the opinion of the ruling party in Poland was nothing more than a Soviet "colony", therefore, all who fought with the "colonialists" are heroes.

          Strange, however, were the “colonialists” —add alien lands to their “colony” and made an industrial country out of an agrarian country.

          We no longer have to make such mistakes.
          1. IvanTheTerrible
            IvanTheTerrible 11 September 2017 14: 26
            +1
            Poland is a nation state. Accordingly, the heroes there are those people who fought for it, and not for Germany.
            1. Operator
              Operator 11 September 2017 15: 40
              0
              Tell more tales about how the Red Army in WWII fought for Germany, and not for national Poland.
  16. Operator
    Operator 11 September 2017 12: 14
    0
    Can anyone explain what the problem is with the recognition / non-recognition of the participation of Suzdal Prince Andrei Yaroslavich (the younger brother of Novgorod Prince Alexander Nevsky) and his small “forged” rati in the Battle of the Ice?
  17. alstr
    alstr 11 September 2017 12: 54
    +2
    What can I say.
    First, facts without a context of events are distorted beyond recognition.
    Secondly, many of the facts cited were known and even published (though in limited editions). But if you wanted, you could always find them.
    Thirdly, in the West, usually “hot" facts were usually discovered either 50 years later or after the death of all the defendants.
    Fourth, the bitterness of defeat 41-42 years. sadly, but along with the leadership of the country and the army should be divided and ordinary soldiers, because often they did not comply with the orders given by higher managers, as well as embellishment of the situation, which did not allow to give informed decisions to higher management.

    Now a little fact.
    1. The setting of protective minefields included an action plan at the outbreak of war. Because The shelling in the WWI was still fresh in memory. And no one could be sure that the Goeben-2 variant would not be repeated. Therefore, the claim is past.
    2. Non-contact mines that we still catch (as few as possible) were dropped into the Sevastopol Bay.
    3. The reason for the fall of the Crimea and Sevastopol in particular (however, of all Baltic ports) was the uncoordinated defense of the army and navy. All of them were taken from land and with a great advantage in aviation. And this is precisely what played a role both in the deterioration of supply and in the defeat of the ground forces.
    Plus, one must add on the hostility of the local population (Tatars), who helped the Germans openly.

    Yes, you can reproach the leadership and make any specific claims, but all this will be on the basis of aftertaste.

    Therefore, it is necessary to analyze not only facts, but also how such facts arose in what environment and context.

    And of course, you can’t stupidly repent for every sneeze. Firstly, in those conditions, this could seem to be a legitimate action, and secondly, the enlightened West was no better.
  18. Gardamir
    Gardamir 11 September 2017 13: 54
    +2
    the author is unhappy that the special guards are not making efforts to water the slop of our Soviet past.
    1. Black5Raven
      Black5Raven 11 September 2017 22: 38
      +2
      Quote: Gardamir
      the author is unhappy that the special guards are not making efforts to water the slop of our Soviet past

      Or maybe lying and hiding data? Open the truth = pour slop, good logic
  19. Taoist
    Taoist 11 September 2017 14: 11
    +2
    The problem in my opinion is different. Now, in principle, everything is accessible and everything was accessible enough even in those very notorious "Soviet times" - another question is what it was necessary to know what you were looking for and where to look. This is not the problem, the problem is that it is easy to pile up others to replace some myths. Modern "historians" and others like them are just as easy to handle with text and often simply "change polarity." And this is also understandable because it is not scientific works that are written, but the very “scientific pop” - where it is required not so much meticulousness as “quickness of the pen” and the plot's fascination.
    Well, our eternal "search for the guilty" - where de facto there are no attempts to establish "as it was in fact" and there is a desire to appoint a "scapegoat" - while not a single gram changes the approach that the Central Committee of the CPSU has for modern "liberals" - only polarity. Alas, an objective, unbiased approach is not very popular in itself ... because it is difficult ... but we prefer simple ways.
  20. Curious
    Curious 11 September 2017 14: 54
    +1
    Who is the author of the article, it became clear from the first paragraphs. The article is a cry of the soul, compiled, in the corporate style, from excerpts from various previous works of the author and complaints about the archives. The author has a creative crisis. Re-chants of old materials no longer interest anyone, and nothing can be compromised. All pockets are protected, knowing the existence of Borisych. That's about the archives and remembered.
    1. Operator
      Operator 11 September 2017 15: 46
      +4
      The problem is that the author of the article writes copyright materials, and you copy-paste materials, so you have to pour mud on the author and be silent in a rag on the essence of the article.
      1. Curious
        Curious 11 September 2017 17: 34
        0
        Honestly, you sometimes baffle me with your comments. Not that you made me a writer, I am pleased, thank you. But I would like to know what books I wrote.
        1. Operator
          Operator 11 September 2017 19: 26
          +1
          I wrote "materials" (not books), i.e. including articles and comments.

          So what is there about the essence of the article in question - again, run the quotes from the pull of other people's books? bully
          1. Curious
            Curious 11 September 2017 20: 39
            0
            Oh, there it is! Well, the articles and comments for the site are not whole books consisting of strangers issued as ours. In addition, my articles are accompanied by mandatory links and signed, most often "material prepared." The proud name "author" is used very rarely. And you, as I understand it, get your information directly from the noosphere, or in archives and expeditions disappear for years, delighting us, orphans, with discoveries?
            1. Operator
              Operator 11 September 2017 20: 51
              +3
              Got it - in essence, the article has nothing to say.
              1. Curious
                Curious 11 September 2017 21: 00
                0
                Not understood. The essence of this Shirokorada potpourri is simple. Remind about yourself. This is to keep up with Dontsova in terms of productivity. So what about the ways you get information?
                1. Operator
                  Operator 11 September 2017 21: 19
                  +1
                  Quote: Curious
                  Remind about yourself

                  I understand your comments laughing
                  1. Curious
                    Curious 11 September 2017 21: 21
                    0
                    Well, thank God, although they didn’t understand it the first time, it’s nothing, the road will overpower the traveler.
  21. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 11 September 2017 16: 01
    +3
    Already after the arrest of Tukhachevsky, they urgently “torn apart” the 40-mm Vickers assault rifle and received an army 37-mm assault rifle 61K and a marine 70K.

    Here Maxim and Vickers will be surprised when they find out that the 61-K was a copy of the pom-pom. For example, when they try to understand how the Vickers tape turned into a 61-K clip. laughing

    "Beaufors" it was. Beaufors, not Vickers. The same "Beauforts", which was taken as the basis of air defense by Great Britain and the USA.
    At the same time, the Yankees buried two racially faithful American small-caliber anti-aircraft guns with a unshakable hand - the 2-mm Colt-Browning army machine gun and the 37-mm Chicago piano. The latter was created and brought to mind for 28 years. For ten years in the richest industrialized country they could not make a normal machine for the fleet!
    At the direction of Tukhachevsky, four artillery plants from 1931 to 1936 were tormented with universal guns, that is, guns that were supposed to simultaneously serve as divisional and anti-aircraft. If you create universal guns, then we do not need anti-aircraft guns, Tukhachevsky believed.

    It will not be superfluous to recall that at the beginning of the 30s the basis of the Red Army’s army air defense was field 3 "on Ivanov’s machine tool. The rearmament of the 3-K army air defense was in question - the cannon for the division of the early 30s was heavy, expensive, It was produced in small quantities, so they decided to try the universal, at the same time getting rid of Ivanov’s bulky machine tool.
    So it is necessary to compare the F-22 not with the 3-K but with the field "three-inch" on the anti-aircraft machine.
    1. MrK
      MrK 11 September 2017 23: 17
      0
      Quote: Alexey RA
      So they decided to try the universal, at the same time getting rid of Ivanov's bulky machine tool.


      You can try. All countries are trying. But why ban the development of anti-aircraft guns?
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 12 September 2017 12: 52
        +1
        Quote: mrark
        You can try. All countries are trying. But why ban the development of anti-aircraft guns?

        Where to look at this ban? And then Comrade Shpitalny, for example, in 1935, during the heyday of Tukhachevsky, was officially commissioned to produce a 37-mm MZA:
        By order of STO No. С-101С dated 4.08.1935, the Shpitalnoye and Plant No. 8 by 15.11.1935/37/XNUMX were instructed to manufacture a prototype of an automatic XNUMX-mm anti-aircraft gun.
        (...)
        By decree KO No. OK-58ss of March 13.03.1936, 8, plant No. 20 was instructed to manufacture 37 automatic XNUMX-mm Shpitalny guns and install them:
        1) 5 guns in the T-26 tank with sights from 20-K.
        2) 10 guns on a car chassis of the Ginzburg design on 3-K pedestals with their mechanisms and sights.
        3) 5 guns on the Vickers sea tables using existing ship installations.

        But the Shpitalny work on the 37 mm MZA successfully failed:
        Conclusion - the 37-mm automatic cannon of the Shpitalnaya can not be recommended for adoption.

        It seems to me that the story of the ban on the development of MZA is an attempt by designers and industry to shift their schools to the military - like, we couldn’t, but the nasty Tukhachevsky forbade us.
        Our military-industrial complex knows how to give out need for virtue. The same ShVAK-20 was declared a great victory - how, on the basis of the 12,7-mm ShVAK machine gun with a flick of the wrist created a gun. And the fact that for this it was necessary to sacrifice the power of the projectile and ballistics (a light short projectile quickly lost its initial speed - because of this, ShVAK was practically not used as an MZA) are such trifles. And certainly no one began to mention the true reason for this decision: ShVAK-12,7 was already in the series, and it was easier for the industry to produce something on its basis than to put a new product into production. Therefore, I had to make a 20 mm shot, guided not by tactical requirements, but by technical ones: so that the length was like that of a 12,7 mm cartridge.
  22. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 11 September 2017 17: 33
    +2
    In addition, in November-December 1941, two admirals managed to remove half of the Black Sea Fleet’s ammunition from Sevastopol. Before the war, 99% of naval ammunition was stored in the arsenals of the main base.

    Apparently because at that time the fleet command did not have 100% confidence that the army was far from Sevastopol. Taking into account the short-lived defense of the isthmuses and the abandonment of Kerch, the navy had reasons for such pessimism.
    For the abandonment of these same 99% of ammunition, the heads of the entire top of the fleet would fly to the enemy.
    In addition, for some of the removed ammunition, the number of guns of these calibers outside Sevastopol was a multiple of the number of barrels of the same caliber in the naval warhead.
    Oktyabrsky also took out more than half of the anti-aircraft artillery from Sevastopol to the Caucasus, despite the fact that in Poti and Batumi there were many anti-aircraft anti-aircraft guns of the country. And most importantly, the Germans did not bomb either Poti or Batumi.

    The approach of the Germans forced July 8 to relocate the destroyer to Poti to complete the repair. The work was already completed when the tragedy occurred. On July 16, 1942, 16 enemy bombers approached the base at a high altitude (6-7 km) and dived into groups in ships. Almost simultaneously with the combat alert signal, 2 bombs fell into the stern of the Bodrogo. The first struck the deck flooring on the starboard side in the region of the 166-167th frames, hit the auxiliary thrust bearing of the propeller shaft and, changing direction, pierced several bulkheads and tanks, but did not explode. The second landed in the aft engine room, and its explosion caused great damage. Finally, the third bomb, which exploded between the wall of the pier and the stern of the ship in the vicinity of the 220th frame, caused serious harm.

    In addition to Poti and Batumi, ZA from Sevastopol went to Novorossiysk. Which was bombed on August 30, 1941. And the first German aircraft over Novorossiysk was spotted on June 23, 1941.
    And at the end of 1941, the People's Commissar Kuznetsov ordered the best transport vessels to be removed from the Black Sea through the Straits, supposedly they were needed for use in the North and the Pacific Ocean. And this is a very strange decision, since Nikolai Gerasimovich personally participated in negotiations with the United States on the supply of dozens of Liberty-type transport vessels to the USSR, each with 10 thousand tons of displacement.

    About the delivery in which year? The first Liberty was launched on September 27, 1941. According to the memoirs of Macedon, in 1942, the Americans offered us ships with a wooden hull or ships built during the WWI.
  23. gray
    gray 11 September 2017 18: 48
    +1
    Quote: V.S.
    "" Hello. I’ll say it simply because I’m tired of commenting on this. The most powerful European armies fell in front of Germany. ""

    - i.e. the facts cited by the author- lies and in no way influenced the course of the war?)))

    Hello. Influenced. Self-flagellation bothered. Without the CPSU (b), nothing happened.
  24. Sergeant Gregorius
    Sergeant Gregorius 11 September 2017 20: 48
    0
    By the way, one of the centers for testing these weapons was in Fort Berg of the Brest Fortress. Incidentally, access to the fort under a specious excuse is still closed.
    At the place of Fort Berg, there is currently a meat factory. From the fort there was only one structure of the refrigerator, which by the way is still in use today. A strange place for a meat factory. Or maybe this is so that problems with product quality could be blamed on bacteriological weapons? Oops Get ahead.
  25. gray
    gray 13 September 2017 18: 08
    +1
    Quote: Gransasso
    And how many divisions put up, for example, Holland against the USSR? Or Spain ... or France ...



    The occupied territories of the USSR also supplied Germany from 41 to 44 years with food and so on ... and a cheap labor force ..... well, about a million Soviet citizens in one form or another as part of the Wehrmacht ...... how to deal with them. write to the EU too?

    Hello. On the German side in the war against the USSR, the troops of Romania, Hungary, Italy, Finland, Slovakia, and Croatia fought. In addition, volunteer units of the Spaniards, Belgians, Dutch, French, Danes, and Norwegians fought on the side of Germany against the USSR. Here's what interests you: the Netherlands volunteer legion (a motorized battalion of 5 companies) was formed in July 1941.

    In January 1942, the Dutch Legion arrived on the northern section of the German-Soviet front, in the Volkhov region. Then the legion was transferred to Leningrad (now St. Petersburg).

    In May 1943, the Dutch Legion was reorganized into a volunteer brigade of SS "Netherlands" troops (consisting of two motorized regiments and other units, with a total number of 9 thousand people).

    In 1944, one of the regiments of the Dutch brigade was almost destroyed in the battles of Narva. In the fall of 1944, the brigade retreated to Kurland, in January 1945 by sea it was evacuated to Germany.

    In February 1945, the brigade was renamed the division, although its strength was greatly reduced due to losses. By May 1945, the Dutch division was virtually destroyed in battles against the Red Army.

    About 8 thousand Dutch people died in the war against the USSR (more than 4 thousand Dutch were taken prisoner).

    4 Dutchmen were awarded the German Knights Crosses. The Spanish division (18 thousand people) was sent to the northern section of the German-Soviet front. From October 1941, she fought in the Volkhov area, and from August 1942, near Leningrad (now St. Petersburg). In October 1943, the division was returned to Spain, but about 2 thousand volunteers remained to fight in the Spanish Legion (three-battalion squad). The Legion was disbanded in March 1944, but about 300 Spaniards wished to continue fighting, and 2 companies of the SS troops were formed from them, who fought against the Red Army until the end of the war.

    About 5 thousand Spaniards died in the war against the USSR (452 ​​Spaniards were taken into Soviet captivity).

    Two Spaniards were awarded German Knights Crosses, including one that received Oak Leaves to the Knights Cross. The French volunteer legion for the war against the Bolsheviks was created in July 2.

    In October 1941, the French Legion (infantry regiment, numbering 2,5 people) was sent to the German-Soviet front, to the Moscow direction. The French suffered heavy losses there, and from the spring of 1942 until the summer of 1944 the legion was withdrawn from the front and sent to fight against the Soviet partisans in the rear.

    In the summer of 1944, the French legion actually again appeared on the front line (as a result of the advance of the Red Army in Belarus), again suffered heavy losses and was withdrawn to Germany.

    In September 1944, the French volunteer legion was disbanded, and instead a French SS brigade was created (numbering more than 7 thousand people).

    In February 1945, the French SS brigade was renamed the 33rd Grenadier Division of the SS troops Charlemagne (Charlemagne) and sent to the front in Pomerania against the Soviet troops. In March 1945, the French division was almost destroyed.

    The remains of the French division (about 700 people) at the end of April 1945 defended in Berlin.

    About 8 thousand Frenchmen were killed in the war against the USSR (not counting the Alsatians called up to the Wehrmacht).

    3 Frenchmen were awarded German Knights Crosses. And yes, the whole economy of Europe was against the USSR.
  26. Glory1974
    Glory1974 15 September 2017 13: 06
    0
    super.ufu,
    I already wrote 2 topics for which there are no access to the archives. . If you can find information so cleverly - find it. So far, only your unsubstantiated words.
    1. super.ufu
      super.ufu 15 September 2017 22: 22
      0
      I already wrote 2 topics

      Glory, I repeat once again that in matters of prokhorovka you personally don’t know, and why don’t you name it anywhere in the world,
      the second thing that you personally don’t know and are nowhere to be after 41?
      Once again, in what specific questions on the topic do you have white spots?
  27. Glory1974
    Glory1974 15 September 2017 23: 06
    0
    super.ufu,
    extract from the rules:
    3. The user may be denied the issuance of archival files in the event of:
    • the absence of the documents of interest to him in storage in the CA MO;
    lack of access to the requested documents;
    • the user's lack of documents confirming his authority to request information relating to third parties, provided for by the legislation of the Russian Federation.
    Still have questions?