How England battled Russia with Austria-Hungary and Turkey

20
Diplomatic struggle

By interfering in the affairs of Turkey, the Russian government did not want a conflict with Austria-Hungary. It was decided to first try to negotiate with the Habsburgs. The Chancellor and the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Empire, Alexander Gorchakov, simultaneously tried to maintain Russia's authority among the Balkan Slavs and at the same time not quarrel with Austria-Hungary. To this end, he decided to pursue a policy of intervening in Balkan affairs in agreement with Vienna. Such a politician was in line with the agreement of the three emperors. But in the end, both “allies” pursued their own goals and tried to prevent the “partner” from solving their tasks on their own.



In August, 1875, Gorchakov raised in Vienna the question of the need for joint performance. The Russian government proposed jointly demanding Porta to grant the Slavs autonomy, like the one that Romania had. That is, Gorchakov inclined Vienna to the de facto independence of Herzegovina and Bosnia. However, the creation of another South Slavic principality did not suit Vienna, it could cause unrest among the Slavic subjects of the Habsburgs. In addition, the Austrian elite has already planned its own expansion in this area. But Andrassy, ​​in order to seize the initiative of Russia, and avoid the entry of Serbia into the war, agreed to a joint statement with the Russians in defense of the rebels. Vienna put forward its own program of appeasing the rebellious Turkish provinces: to carry out only minor administrative reforms in Bosnia and Herzegovina, while maintaining the power of the Sultan. 30 December 1875 of the year Andrassy handed a note to the governments of the great powers proposing a reform project in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Austrian government invited the great powers to joint actions with the aim of corresponding influence on Porto, as well as on the Slavic rebels. 31 January 1876, the Austrian project was transferred to Porte by the ambassadors of the great powers.

Turkey accepted this “advice” and agreed to reform. The rebels abandoned this plan and demanded the withdrawal of Turkish troops. “The people,” said the representatives of Herzegovina, “cannot accept a plan in which there is not a word about real freedom.” The rebels demanded real guarantees from the great powers. Thus, Andrassy’s plan failed.

It should be noted that the cautious policy of Russia in this period was associated not only with the fact that the state was weakened by the defeat in the Crimean War, but by the strong influence of the pro-Western, liberal wing in the Russian elite. It was supported by the liberal bourgeoisie, St. Petersburg's large banks, the exchange associated with railway construction (which was rich in Russian and foreign speculators) and foreign capital, interested in attracting it to Russia. The Westernizers placed Europe first (West). These circles were in favor of peace and the actions of Russia were tied to the opinion of Europe. The leader of this party was Finance Minister M.H. Reitern, who argued that Russia from the war would immediately and permanently lose all the results achieved by it, thanks to 20-year reforms,. The instability of the financial system required a peaceful policy and the abandonment of active support of the Balkan Slavs. The same line was also supported by a part of the conservative nobility, which did not share the opinion of the Slavophils that "Slavic affairs" would strengthen the autocracy. The conservatives believed that if Russia adheres to the “liberation principles” in foreign affairs, this could lead to internal unrest. In particular, Count Peter Shuvalov, the Russian ambassador in London, adhered to this line.

Tsar Alexander Nikolaevich and Gorchakov were themselves against the war and were afraid of its possible consequences. Therefore, they maneuvered between the Slavophiles and their opponents. They also had to take into account the financial and economic difficulties of the Russian Empire, which was not ready for a protracted war. Hence the inconsistency of the policy of St. Petersburg in this period. Gorchakov wanted to do something for the Balkan Slavs and at the same time did not want war. He decided that it would be most advantageous to come to an agreement with Vienna on this issue, this would allow Russia to maintain Russia's prestige in the Balkans and avoid war. The ambassador in Constantinople, Ignatiev, bent his line: he tried to solve the eastern crisis, including the Balkan affairs, by means of a separate Russian-Turkish agreement. He hoped for a Russian-Turkish alliance, such as the Unkar-Iskelesi Treaty of 1833, which provided for a military alliance between the two countries in case one of them was attacked. The secret supplementary clause of the treaty allowed Turkey not to send troops, but demanded the closure of the Bosphorus for ships of any countries (except Russia). Not without the participation of Ignatiev, the sultan promised reforms to the Balkan Slavs, including the equalization of Christians in rights with Muslims, tax cuts, etc. However, the rebels did not believe the promises of the Turkish authorities.

Gorchakov invited Andrassy and Bismarck to discuss the situation at the meeting of the three ministers, in conjunction with the Russian Tsar's vizier in the capital of Germany. The meeting took place in May 1876. It coincided with the resignation of the Grand Vizier, Mahmoud-Nedim-pasha, who was a conductor of Russian influence in Turkey. His fall meant the victory of the pro-British party in Constantinople. That is, now Turkey was counting on the full support of England, while the British were urging the Ottomans against the Russians. In addition, the uprising against the Ottoman yoke has spread. Unrest swept Bulgaria. This could not but affect the policy of St. Petersburg towards Turkey.

Russia insisted on giving autonomy to all rebel Slavs. Gorchakov wanted to settle the Eastern question with the help of the union of three emperors and the “European concert”, which would give Russia and Austria-Hungary mandates for the organization of autonomous regions in the Balkans. However, the Austrians were opposed to the significant success of the Slavic national liberation movement and the strengthening of Russia, at least in part of the Balkan Peninsula. Andrassy, ​​in line with the traditional Jesuit policy of Vienna, did not openly oppose Gorchakov’s projects, but made so many amendments and changes to them that they completely lost their original appearance and turned into an improved note of Andrássy himself from December 30 of 1875. Now there was a kind of international guarantees that the rebels demanded. So in the end came the Berlin Memorandum, which in general was in the interests of Vienna. At the same time, it was vaguely stipulated that if the steps outlined in it did not give proper results, the three empires would agree to take "effective measures ... for the sake of preventing the further development of evil."

The Berlin Memorandum was adopted on 13 on May 1876 of the year. The governments of France and Italy reported that they agreed with the program of the three empires. But England, represented by the government of Benjamin Disraeli, opposed the new intervention in favor of the Balkan Slavs. England pursued a similar policy with the Austrian. London did not want either increased Russian influence in the Balkans and in Turkey, nor the liberation of the southern Slavs. The masters of Britain viewed Russia as an adversary in the Big Game, where the Russians acted as rivals of England, challenging its primacy in the Ottoman Empire and in the whole East. Just at this time, London was preparing a series of activities to expand and strengthen British rule in India. The British subjugated Kelat and planned to conquer Afghanistan. The British also embarked on the seizure of the Suez Canal, entrenched in Egypt, a key point that allowed control of a large part of the Mediterranean Sea, North Africa, and the most important maritime communication that linked Europe to South and Southeast Asia. After the construction of the canal through the Suez Isthmus (1869), the main communication lines of the British Empire ran through the Mediterranean. It is clear that the British did not intend to release Russians from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean, to give them Constantinople. London sought to control not only Egypt, but the entire Turkish empire. Put Turkey under control and set it on Russia. This allowed England to extend its influence over the entire Middle East and more firmly lock Russia in the Black Sea, stop the Russian movement to the south and in the future try again to drive the Russians deeper into the continent.

There were British and other strategic considerations. London was plotting aggression in Afghanistan, which meant complications with Russia in Central Asia. For England, it was beneficial to divert Russia's attention to the Middle East, the Balkans, push Russia and Turkey together, and cause an Austro-Russian conflict. In Central Asia, Russia and England were face to face; other great powers had no serious interests here. At the same time, Russia was closer to the scene of the conflict, that is, in theory, it could use more manpower and resources to stop British expansion. No wonder the British were afraid for a long time that the Russians would challenge them in India and use the hatred of the local population for the invaders. Thus, it was beneficial for England to unleash a serious conflict in the Balkans, where it was possible to fight with Russia through the hands of others - with the help of the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian empires. By refusing to accept the Berlin Memorandum, Disraeli won the favor of the Ottoman government and took a big step towards turning Turkey into a tool of global British politics. England upset the "European concert", weakened the alliance of the three emperors and encouraged Porto to resist. In order to instill even more decisiveness in Porto, the British government sent a fleet to the Straits, which was stationed at Dardanelles.

How England battled Russia with Austria-Hungary and Turkey

British Government Head Benjamin Disraeli

Serbo-Turkish war

Meanwhile, the situation in the Balkans continued to deteriorate. Almost simultaneously with the appearance of the Berlin Memorandum, the Turks drowned the Bulgarian uprising in blood. Bishibuzuki and Circassians (irregular troops of Turkey) massacred thousands of people, torturing and abusing them before. After the open resistance of the Bulgarians was broken, the Ottomans continued terror and repression. The slaughter in Bulgaria caused an increase in sympathy for the Slavic movement throughout Europe.

Gorchakov still hoped to convince the Ottoman government. It was agreed that all the great powers, except England, will support the Berlin Memorandum. However, at this time important events occurred in Constantinople. 30 May 1876 in Turkey there was a palace coup. At the head of the conspiracy were the grand vizier Mehmed Rushdie, the war minister Hussein Avni and the minister without a portfolio Midhat Pasha. The weak sultan Abdul-Aziz, who was suspected of being willing to yield to European powers, forced him to abdicate in favor of his nephew, Mehmed Murad (although the new sultan was no better, suffered from a mental disorder and was drunk). 4 Jun former sultan was killed (officially announced that it was suicide). As a result, the patriotic (nationalist) and Muslim party, which stood in belligerent positions, prevailed in Constantinople. Gorchakov, fearing a sharp refusal of Porta, which led to grave consequences - the need to reconcile with the diplomatic defeat and defeat of the Slavic movement or take decisive and risky actions, suggested postponing the performance of the five great powers until the situation in Turkey stabilized.

Meanwhile, a new crisis was brewing in the Balkans. The Serbian and Montenegrin governments could no longer hold back the movement in support of the Slav brothers, and were actively preparing for war. The Prince of Serbia, Milan Obrenovic, in June 1876, was able to agree with the Prince of Montenegro, Nicola, on joint actions against Turkey. Representatives of Russia and Austria-Hungary in Belgrade and Cetinje officially warned against this. But the Serbs did not heed the opinion of the great powers. The Serbs were confident that as soon as the war began, the Russians would be forced to support the Slavic brothers and would not allow the defeat of Serbia. In Russia itself, society actively supported the southern Slavs. Vienna offered St. Petersburg joint military intervention in order to stop Serbia and transfer Bosnia and Herzegovina to the arm of Austria-Hungary. But for Russia such an intervention was unacceptable. Petersburg demanded autonomy for Bosnia and Herzegovina and did not want to give up the provinces of Austria.

Montenegro and Serbia declared war on Turkey 28 June 1876 of the year. Hundreds of Russian volunteers went to Serbia. Russian General Mikhail Grigorievich Chernyaev - the hero of the defense of Sevastopol, the conquest of Turkestan and the storming of Tashkent, was appointed commander-in-chief of the Serbian army. The news of his appointment as Commander-in-Chief to the main Serbian army sent a signal to the influx of Russian volunteers to Serbia and raised a Serbian attempt at the degree of the Russian national cause. It should be noted that the Russian authorities tried to prevent Chernyaev himself from going to Serbia. And when the Russian-Turkish war began, Chernyaev fell into unspoken disgrace and the man who symbolized Slavic unity and fraternity remained out of work. A talented commander was left to the staff at the European theater of war. Then he went to the Caucasus, where, too, did not wait for any appointment. As a result, as A. I. Denikin wrote: “... ascended more by honoring the army, people and society, Bely General — Skobelev advanced. Another worthy of his contemporary Chernyaev remained in the shadows. The conqueror of Tashkent lived in retirement, in offensive idleness, on a meager pension, which, in addition, imposed control over absurd, purely formal reasons. ”


Russian General Mikhail Grigorievich Chernyaev

Reichstadt Agreement

The Serbo-Montenegrin-Turkish war increased the danger of a big war. Vienna wanted to “calm” the Serbs and occupy Bosnia and Herzegovina. But Petersburg was against such actions. And without Russia's consent, Austria did not dare to act. If Turkey had won the war, and she had military and economic superiority over the Serbs, then the question would be about Russia's intervention to save Serbia. At the same time Austria would inevitably intervene in the Russian-Turkish conflict. Petersburg feared such a conflict no less than in Vienna. If, unexpectedly, Serbia and Montenegro had won, then one would have expected the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, with the separation of European provinces. In this case, one could expect the struggle of the great powers for the Turkish inheritance. Thus, Russia was in a very difficult situation. Petersburg in the second half of 1876, tried to solve a difficult diplomatic task: at the same time to support southern Slavs and avoid a big war.

26 June (8 July) 1876 was the meeting of Emperor Alexander II and Foreign Minister Prince A. Gorchakov with the Austrian Emperor Franz Joseph and Foreign Minister D. Andrássy in the Reichstadt Castle. As a result of the negotiations that took place, neither a formal convention, nor even a protocol was signed. On the instructions of Gorchakov and Andrássy, only records of the negotiations were made, and the Russian and Austrian texts are somewhat different from each other. According to both records, in the Reichstadt, the parties decided to adhere to the "principle of non-intervention": Russia and Austria promised not to intervene in the war of Serbia and Montenegro against the Ottoman Empire and to close the Austrian ports of Klek and Kattaro, through which the parties (mainly Turkey) received weapon and ammunition. The agreement stipulated that "in no case would they render assistance to the Turks against Christians."

Regarding the future, it was decided that in the event of military success of the Ottoman Empire, both powers would act by mutual agreement. Russia and Austria will demand the restoration of the pre-war situation in Serbia, up to the destruction of the Turkish fortresses, as well as reforms in Bosnia and Herzegovina. In the event of the victory of Christians, both powers committed themselves not to promote the formation of a large Slavic state. Russian diplomacy also insisted on some increase in the territory of Serbia and Montenegro. According to Gorchakov’s record: “Montenegro and Serbia will be able to annex: the first is Herzegovina and the port on the Adriatic Sea, the second is some parts of old Serbia and Bosnia”. On the other hand, Austria in this case received the right to acquire "Turkish Croatia and some border parts of Bosnia with it, according to a plan to be established later."

According to the record of Andrassy, ​​Montenegro should have received only a part of Herzegovina. The rest of Bosnia and Herzegovina was to receive the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Thus, the discrepancies between the Austrian and Russian records were quite significant: the Gorchakov record did not mention Austria’s rights to Herzegovina.

Russia received the right to reclaim the south-western Bessarabia, rejected under the Paris Treaty of 1856, and Batum. In the event of the complete collapse of the Ottoman Empire in Europe, Bulgaria and Rumelia (according to Gorchakov) could form independent principalities within their natural borders. The Austrian entry provided for Bulgaria, Rumelia and Albania to become autonomous provinces of the Ottoman Empire. Epirus and Thessaly supposed to transfer to Greece. Record Andrassy provided for the transfer of Greece and Crete. Constantinople was supposed to be a free city.


Foreign Minister of Austria-Hungary Gyula Andrássy
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  1. +2
    April 27 2017 06: 30
    London sought to control not only Egypt, but the entire Turkish empire. Put Turkey under control and set it against Russia

    In this article, in my opinion, it was possible to determine the main reasons for the economic well-being of the British Isles - primarily the subordination to the interests of Britain of all countries and empires. In this sense, the rapidly developing RI both economically and militarily did not suit the British at all, so they tried to spoil the RI with all possible and impossible methods, otherwise all their economic power, based on the operation of its colonies, could seriously suffer or even simply collapse. And here we are all heatedly discussing: Why did it so happen that the poor British Isles have risen so high in the economy and still live happily ever after. By the way, from the article: “Constantinople was to become a free city” - Britain would never really have done such a thing, because the army of the Republic of Ingushetia always called this city according to the old Constantinople, even the name itself speaks for itself and the Grand Duke Constantine even Catherine II was supposed to rule there.
    1. +1
      April 27 2017 20: 29
      How insidious England pitted Russia with Austria-Hungary and Turkey

      Yes, just like the multi-volley articles by A. Samsonov pit Olgoviches and V.oviches between themselves. A historical parallel can be traced. Yes
      PS. I am with two hands for the work of Alexander Samsonov. This is the most talked about in Fiction hi
  2. +1
    April 27 2017 06: 45
    interesting, thanks. Well, as usual, arrogant Saxons - the most dangerous enemy of Russia throughout history - masterly know how to set on us all we can.
  3. +1
    April 27 2017 07: 41
    Reichstadt Agreement
    .. The agreement was supplemented by the Budapest Convention. Later, the Budapest Convention allowed Austria-Hungary to demand a revision of the conditions of the San Stefano Peace.
  4. +2
    April 27 2017 09: 20
    Reading these Samson masterpieces of historical thought, this question arises.
    The insidious Anglo-Saxons deceive the entire practically known history to their own advantage and use the rest of the country for their own purposes.
    Question. What are the names of those who are constantly used by others for their personal purposes?
    Who is to blame for the fact that someone else is constantly using these others for their own ends.
    1. +3
      April 27 2017 10: 12
      Question. What are the names of those who are constantly used by others for their personal purposes?

      Quite rightly noticed. People who constantly cry and point their fingers at England and America, as the source of all our troubles, do not understand, due to their natural limitations, that they are making a fool of the Russian people. Actually they poured themselves into slops and they like it in their souls - to be forever offended and oppressed.
    2. +4
      April 27 2017 10: 48
      Of course, each country acted in its own interests and not in the interests of foreign countries, it just happened historically that having the most powerful fleet in the world, located on an island and therefore inaccessible to the armies of other countries, Britain had much greater freedom of maneuver in European affairs, which she successfully used, maintaining a favorable balance of power in Europe and remaining almost invulnerable to others.
    3. +1
      27 December 2017 09: 03
      Quote: Curious
      Question. What are the names of those who are constantly used by others for their personal purposes?

      The Anglo-Saxon political mentality has the outstanding feature that, with a violent desire to destroy everyone, everything and everyone that does not meet their geopolitical interests, they prefer to do it not only with someone else’s hands, but also with other people's wallets. This skill is honored from them as the highest political aerobatics and there is something to learn from them. But centuries pass, and we don’t have these lessons for the future. The Russian people, as our unforgettable prince-baptist Vladimir the Red Sun, used to say, are too simple and naive for such a politeness. But our political elite, much of which, even in its external appearance, cannot deny (and often does not deny) the presence of a powerful stream of Jewish blood in its veins, has been completely fooled by Anglo-Saxon tricks and frills for many centuries. It is simply shame, shame and disgrace and defies any reasonable explanation. In fairness it should be noted that some domestic figures sometimes showed in the history enviable examples of dexterity and skill in politics, that even the British bulldog was drooling from envy and admiration. But these were only brief episodes in our endless stupid and rustic military-political history, when the sacrificial masses of Russian infantry, cavalry and sailors died in wars in wars for the interests alien to Russia. However, this is such a global topic for analysis and reflection that it deserves a separate and in-depth study.
      https://topwar.ru/36532-kazaki-v-otechestvennoy-v
      oyne-1812-goda-chast-ii-vtorzhenie-i-izgnanie-nap
      oleona.html
  5. +2
    April 27 2017 09: 35
    Interfering in Turkish affairsRussian government ..


    In what way ... The liberation of the BRAKED and DESTRUCTED countries and peoples of the Balkans is, it turns out, "interference in the affairs of Turkey."
    А liberation Black Sea coast of Turkey, then what to call Russia? Annexation, I suppose?

    More wonderful and wonderful ... request
    1. +4
      April 27 2017 11: 21
      Quote: Olgovich
      And what about the liberation of the Black Sea region from Turkey as Russia then? Annexation, I suppose?

      From the point of view of the Turks, yes. Everything in the world is relative. But you do not understand this. The liberal brain, in general, is not adapted to a sober and unemotional perception of reality.
      Quote: Olgovich
      In what way ... The liberation of the BRAKED and DESTRUCTED countries and peoples of the Balkans is, it turns out, "interference in the affairs of Turkey."

      Had a desire (read interests) and the ability (read strength) to intervene, and here they intervened! Fought for own benefit, at the same time, so as not to get up twice, they released the “Captured and Destroyed”. What warped you?
      1. +2
        April 27 2017 12: 36
        Quote: HanTengri
        From the point of view of the Turks - yes


        Turks have never been there, as in Asia Minor. So the annexation was precisely their actions to capture the Black Sea and Asia Minor with Constantinople.

        But you don’t understand this, because of the impossibility of PERCEPTING knowledge, what is the difference between a petrified brain 26 years ago.
        Quote: HanTengri
        Had a desire (read interests) and the ability (read strength) to intervene, and here they intervened! They fought for their own benefit, at the same time, so as not to get up twice, they released the “Captured and Destroyed” What distorted you?

        Freed from Turkish occupation the countries they conquered, but did not interfere in the affairs of Turkey,

        In your opinion, the USSR intervened in the affairs of Germany, liberating Poland and others. fool

        PS Run away ... against the wall to weaken the petrification. Although, hardly .... No.
        1. +2
          April 27 2017 19: 18
          Quote: Olgovich
          Run away ... against the wall to weaken the petrification.

          It’s quite a bakery mЫbonding. Have you been using the method for a long time? The head does not hurt? About suicide did not bother?
        2. +3
          April 27 2017 19: 52
          Quote: Olgovich
          They liberated the occupied countries from the Turkish invaders, but did not interfere in the affairs of Turkey,
          Yeah! Can you tell me how many centuries the Balkan countries were part of the Ottoman Empire?
          Quote: Olgovich
          In your opinion, the USSR intervened in the affairs of Germany, liberating Poland and others.

          Are you okay with understanding cause-effect relationships? What was the liberation before, the Soviet Army, Poland, or the German attack on the USSR?
          Quote: Olgovich
          Turks have never been there, as in Asia Minor.

          And the Crimean Tatars, the vassals of the Ottoman, there, too, never lived? lol Perhaps the Crimean Tatars were greeted with bread, salt and flowers by the Russian troops in 1736, freeing them from the hated, Ottoman yoke? laughing You, my friend, "either remove the cross or put on your pants ...) (c). Yes For example, as a Russian, I am proud that my ancestors conquered Crimea, Siberia, Central Asia, etc. (annexed, from the point of view of the opposite side). They had, there, interest, had power, had the will and had the courage to realize this interest. You, you can continue to politically correctly call these heroic CONQUEST joins (Who knows you ... Maybe while my ancestors personally participated in many of these glorious annexations, your "noisy crowd", peacefully, roamed Bessarabia .. .). Do not forget, by the way, to let the usual portion of liberal saliva and snot, about millions of innocent people killed, in the process ... crying
          1. +1
            April 27 2017 20: 24
            Quote: HanTengri
            Can you tell me how many centuries the Balkan countries were part of the Ottoman Empire?

            But do not tell me how they got into Ottoman citizenship? Voluntarily, or fighting? And how did the Turks humble the civilian population?
            Quote: HanTengri
            And the Crimean Tatars, the vassals of the Ottoman, there, too, never lived?

            Teach the history of the Crimean Tatars in Crimea - they lived there only 300 years before the annexation of Crimea to Russia. Russians lived there long before that, and even the Greeks called the Black Sea Russian.
            Quote: HanTengri
            I, for example, as a Russian person

            Your views are not Russian. hi
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. 0
              April 27 2017 21: 48
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              But do not tell me how they got into Ottoman citizenship? Voluntarily, or fighting? And how did the Turks humble the civilian population?


              Do not care. Legally, they, at that time, were 200-300 years old, as in the Ottoman Empire
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              Teach the history of the Crimean Tatars in Crimea - they lived there only 300 years before the annexation of Crimea to Russia.

              Let's start: The main ethnic groups that inhabited Crimea in antiquity and the Middle Ages are Tauris, Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, Bulgars, Greeks, Crimean Goths, Khazars, Pechenegs, Polovtsians, Italians, Asia Minor Turks. Where are the Russians?

              The historical core of the Crimean Tatar ethnic group is the Turkic tribes who settled in the Crimea. A special place in the ethnogenesis of Crimean Tatars belongs Polovtsian appearance in the Crimea - 11th century. AD, which, mixed with the local descendants of the Huns, the historical core of the Crimean Tatar ethnic group are the Turkic tribes who settled in the Crimea. A special place in the ethnogenesis of Crimean Tatars belongs to the Polovtsy, who, mixed with local descendants the Huns (3rd century AD), Khazar (7rd century AD), Pechenegs (8-9 centuries AD), as well as representatives of the pre-Turkic (Greeks, Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans) population of Crimea. Where did you get 300 years?

              Quote: Ingvar 72
              Even the Greeks called the Black Sea Russian.


              The Black Sea, the Greeks called Pontus of Euxinus. Pontius Pilate (Horseman Pilate of Pontus) a familiar name? So, here: judging by the name, he was a Greek from the Crimea. laughing
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              Your views are not Russian.

              And what is not their Russianness?
              1. 0
                April 28 2017 07: 59
                Quote: HanTengri
                Do not care. Legally, they, at that time, are 200-300 years old

                The drum was bad. the drummer is dead .... wassat
                Who and where looked back at jurisprudence in territorial disputes? The Turks also appeared illegitimate there. Yes, and what legal grounds did the Turks have when they captured Constantinople?
                Quote: HanTengri
                Where did you get 300 years?

                The Crimean Khanate existed from 1441 to 1783. 342 years If they, as an ethnos, have been formed from a mixture of other peoples from the 11th century, can this date be considered fundamental?
                Quote: HanTengri
                (Greeks, Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans)

                Otkel firewood? Scythians, according to geneticists, are a Slavic group of peoples, and are the progenitors of the Russian people.
                Quote: HanTengri
                Where are the Russians?

                Google Tmutarakan.
                Quote: HanTengri
                The Black Sea, the Greeks called Pontus of Euxinus.

                Russian sea - ist. name Black m., Found in Russian. chronicles (858-1485) and in Arabic. sources. Arab. and other east. geographers called R.M. Further - After such a turn of events, Emperor Constantine IX Monomakh requested peace. Under its terms, Russian merchants and pilgrims gained the right of extraterritoriality (jurisdiction to local laws) throughout the Byzantine Empire. And in the letters of agreement instead of Pontus Euxinus appeared the Russian Sea.http://windowrussia.ruvr.ru/2013_11_05/Kogda-CHer
                noe-more-nazivalos-Russkim-5529 /
                So who can be considered the more indigenous people of Crimea?
                Quote: HanTengri
                And what is not their Russianness?

                In defending the rights of an alien mentality, historically hostile to the people of Russia. hi
                1. 0
                  April 28 2017 22: 36
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  The Turks also appeared illegitimate there. Yes, and what legal grounds did the Turks have when they captured Constantinople?

                  In those days, for all peoples, for conquest, for not having the UN, it was enough, only one "legal basis" - the Rights of the Strong. laughing
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  The Crimean Khanate existed from 1441 to 1783. 342 years If they are Tmutarakan - can this date be considered fundamental?

                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  Scythians, according to geneticists, are a Slavic group of peoples, and are the progenitors of the Russian people.

                  Those. In your opinion, the Crimean Tatars, "If they as an ethnic group were formed from a mixture of other peoples from the 11th century" to Crimea, by the 18th century, didn’t have any rights at all? And RI, since, the Scythians who ran around the Crimea, from the 8th century. BC, until 4 in. AD "according to geneticists, the Slavic group of peoples, and are the progenitors of the Russian people." (HZ which DB, I informed you about this) only returned the lost territories ... wassat By the way, regarding the Siberian Khanate and Central Asia, can you freeze a Che-thread like this?
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  Google Tmutarakan.

                  Googled:
                  The city was founded by the Greeks from the island of Lesbos and received the name Hermonassa (dr. Greek Ἑρμώνασσα) in the VI century BC. e. [6] From the 7th century BC e. was part of the Bosporus kingdom. From the very beginning I had two-story stone houses with stoves and grain storage. The buildings were tiled and contained five rooms. In its center was an acropolis [8]. Not far from the city was the temple of Aphrodite [XNUMX]. In the VI century, Bosporus became a federation or part of the Byzantine Empire of Justinian I.

                  In the VI century, the city was conquered by the Türkic Kaganate and from that time received the new name Tumen-Tarkhan, which possibly comes from the Türkic title of Tarkhan and the word Tumen, which denoted a military unit of ten thousand people. In Erzya, the phrase “yutamo tarka” means “transition, ford” (yutamo “passage, transition”, tarka “place”), which allows us to explain its name as “place (city at) crossing (across the strait)”.

                  Soon after the collapse of the Turkic Kaganate, Tumentarkhan became Khazar and is sometimes referred to as Samkherts in the sources of the 9th-XNUMXth centuries. At this time, under the influence of raids, he turned into a fortress. The Byzantine influence did not break off: dugouts and yurt constructions are not typical for the city. The population of the city was multi-ethnic. Greeks, Armenians, Khazars, Alans settled here. The religious situation was also variegated: Christianity coexisted with Judaism and paganism. The bulk of the population was engaged in trade. Engaged in its inhabitants and winemaking [XNUMX].

                  After the defeat of the Khazar Khaganate in 965 (or, according to other sources, in 968–969), the Kiev prince Svyatoslav Igorevich came under the rule of Russia. Tmutarakan (Tmutorokan, Tmutorokon, Tmutorokan, Tmutorotan, Torokan) - the capital of the ancient Russian Tmutarakan principality (second half of X - XI).
                  AND? What happened before: a chicken, or an egg? lol
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  Russian sea - ist. name Black m., Found in Russian. chronicles (858-1485) and in Arabic. sources. Arab. and other east. geographers called R.M. Further - After such a turn of events, Emperor Constantine IX Monomakh requested peace. Under its terms, Russian merchants and pilgrims gained the right of extraterritoriality (jurisdiction to local laws) throughout the Byzantine Empire. And in the letters of agreement instead of Pontus Euxinus appeared the Russian Sea. Http://windowrussia.ruvr.ru/2013_11_05/Kogda
                  -Cher
                  noe-more-nazivalos-Russkim-5529 /

                  The link returns the following:
                  Error 404
                  Pages with this address do not exist
                  So what, I, h.z. what are you speaking about.
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  In defending the rights of an alien mentality, historically hostile to the people of Russia.

                  Please note: I just call conquests - conquests. And I think these gains are valor. Your liberal brain, all the time, needs some kind of excuse like:
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  The Crimean Khanate existed from 1441 to 1783. 342 years If they, as an ethnos, have been formed from a mixture of other peoples from the 11th century, can this date be considered fundamental?

                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  And in contractual letters instead of Pontus Euxinus appeared the Russian Sea.h

                  Before whom do you coddle, my dear? To whom do you make excuses?
                  1. 0
                    April 28 2017 23: 18
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    To your liberal brain
                    Repeat about the "liberal brain", what is this term in your understanding?
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    it was enough, only one "legal basis" - the Rights of the Strong.

                    How do these words of yours fit with these ??? -
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    Legally, they, at that time, were 200-300 years old, as in the Ottoman Empire

                    And here you just went down to rudeness (fu, what a coke!) -
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    Before whom do you coddle, my dear? To whom do you make excuses?

                    When they crib, they often use the term "dear." wink
                    P.S. The link is working. but generally use in the search for the Russian Black Sea - information SEA. For those who can hear and think. wink
              2. +2
                April 29 2017 11: 53
                Quote: HanTengri
                Black Sea, the Greeks called Pontus of Euxinus

                Yeah, only in classical antiquity. And earlier - Pontus Aksinsky.
                And they called him Russian in the High Middle Ages.
                One does not contradict the other!
                1. +1
                  April 29 2017 22: 09
                  Quote: Weyland
                  Yeah, only in classical antiquity. And earlier - Pontus Aksinsky.

                  I know. Grandmother (mother-in-law, my, Greek) wrote. laughing
                  Quote: Weyland

                  And they called him Russian in the High Middle Ages.

                  I, too, in the know.
                  Quote: Weyland
                  One does not contradict the other!

                  What am I talking about ?! I, in principle, that it makes no difference who owned these: Kazan, Crimea, the Siberian Khanate and Central Asia, earlier, who later, before our (ancestors) desires, necessity and, coinciding with them, opportunities (what's important!). did not allow them to conquer (attach) to RI. Why, all, these snot, such as:
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  Scythians, according to geneticists, are a Slavic group of peoples, and are the progenitors of the Russian people.

                  ?
                  1. +1
                    April 29 2017 22: 34
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    Why, all these snot

                    I also do not understand this liberal logic. Stanley Kubrick said perfectly: "All the great nations have always behaved like bandits, and all the small ones - like sorry tutki!" And what's worse? laughing In addition, bandits are divided into “right guys” (ancient Persians, Greeks, Romans, Russians, Spaniards, French and even Mongol-Tatars) and “chaos” (Assyrians, arrogant Saxons, Dutch, Belgians, Japanese) - and memory of themselves defeated they also left different! And the “voluntary joining” of many peoples to Russia often really took place precisely for this reason: and in the dashing 90s, often businessmen who were run over by chaos, themselves asked under the "roof" of some "right brigade" laughing
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