Military Review

Cartridges do not grow on Christmas trees

87
In a previous article “Will there be enough ammunition for war?” The answer to this question was this: if the reserves of ammunition are estimated at 18-20 billion, then this will be enough for about half a year of a big war in which the entire Russian army will take part.




Her discussion was quite active, and the topic itself caused considerable annoyance among many commentators. The overall outcome of the discussion is generally depressing. It turned out that at the forefront in the most important issue of the defense of the army we have put several myths. As if cartridges are so cheap that they are not worth any work. It would seem that the cartridges can produce tobacco and pasta factories (this statement was expressed, despite the fact that it has long been refuted). And also as if the big war will be entirely nuclear, and there no ammunition will be needed. The latter myth may require separate consideration and explanation that nuclear weapon not so all-destructive that after nuclear strikes there would be no possibility of further armed conflict with conventional weapons.

Many people, even those who consider themselves to be well-versed in military matters, do not have a clear idea about the technology of cartridge production, especially about the most difficult part of the cartridge - the case. Although it would seem, it was possible to take an excellent textbook A.N. Malova "Production of small arms ammunition" 1947 of the year to learn about this business a lot of new and interesting.

Cartridges - technologically complex product

The technology of the liner is really complicated. During World War II, the manufacture of a rifle cartridge case was 58 operations. The modern 2005 reference book of the year (incomparably worse than the book of Malov) gives 95 operations, including: cutting of the workpiece, folding into a cap, five sleeve stretches, two bottom stampings, three dulz cuttings, flange turning, two varnishes trimming. Between each mechanical operation should be annealing (to remove residual stresses in the metal, which can then lead to the destruction of the liner), after annealing, etching of oxides of burnout, after etching, washing in soda solution, then in soap solution, and then drying and sorting to eliminate rejects. So dozens of operations are recruited, each of which requires its own equipment, technology and workers.

I never cease to be surprised at how complex the production technology of this expendable material of war. In the USSR, a lot of effort was made to automate this technology, even automated lines were created from pre-packing to packing products like KAP Modul and around 50 automatic rotary lines to carry out groups of operations up to 250 units / min. But even these technological masterpieces could not raise the production of ammunition to the level required to supply a multimillion army armed with automatic weapons. It was on this technological base that the Soviet cartridge industry reached the level of production of 6 billion units per year, which was clearly not enough to meet the needs of wartime.

Not long ago there were many experts in Russia who had a universal answer to any problems. They put their hands on their sides and pompously stated: "The state must decide." However, the study of the issue shows that the problem is not solved by this method, since it has technological roots. If you do not revise the technology of production of ammunition, then their abundance in case of war can not be achieved.

Tube sleeve

One of the solutions to the problem has already been considered and provided for a complete rejection of the metal sleeve in favor of a combustible sleeve made of colloxylin. In this case, mechanical operations remain only for the fraction of the bullet, which is simpler to manufacture: cutting the blank, rolling it into a cap, two hoods, trimming, punching the core and mounting. Kolloksilin, from which a flammable sleeve can be made, is easily pressed into a thermal press, up to and including molding in one operation, with dozens or even hundreds at once in one pass of the press.

This would solve many questions, but so far this option has to be spoken of only as an opportunity. This method requires some research, development work, testing, and the development of weapons for him or alteration of existing weapons for him (initial estimates show the possibility of this option). So for now the problem of manufacturing metal shells has not been removed. In addition, it will be necessary to produce them for a long time. Firstly, because the weapons will still stand for a long time with a metal cartridge case chambered for. Secondly, metal shells will obviously require some types of weapons, such as large-caliber machine guns and automatic small-caliber guns. Even if we start the transition to combustible liners along the entire spectrum of weapons and at the Stakhanov pace, it will still be necessary for a long time to issue cartridges with a metal sleeve. Thus, the simplification of technology is an urgent task.

By itself, the technology of production of cartridges was born in the era of rifles, that is, at the end of the XIX century, and since then very little has changed in essence (although there have been many small changes in it, it suffices to call the replacement of brass with low-carbon steel). The choice of just drawing the liner from the billet was due to the technological arsenal of the time. Then it was the only way to make a hollow and thin-walled part that can withstand high temperatures and high pressure gases when fired. But over the past century, new technologies have emerged that allow us to look at the task from the other side.

So, in essence, the metal sleeve is a cylindrical or conical tube, tightly closed from the bottom. Hence the question: is it possible to manufacture the body of the sleeve just like a pipe, and then close it with a bottom? In principle, this is now possible.

The current industry produces pipes and tubes in the widest range of sizes, seamless and welded. Option One: a seamless thin-walled tube (such tubes are the most durable and are used for pipelines operating under high pressure). First, a blank pipe is stitched, which is then rolled into a tube of the desired diameter and wall thickness. After heat treatment and cutting into blanks, the body of the liner is ready for further stages.

Option Two: welded tube. It can be welded from a strip rolled into a tube, or a spiral-wound strip. So do large-diameter pipes under high pressure for trunk pipelines. However, very small tubular products, such as medical needles, are also manufactured using the same technology. The billet for the needle is rolled up from a steel plate, then it is welded by a laser, after which it is gradually rolled to the required size.

It seems that a single-seam welded tube rolled from a strip or plate of cold-rolled steel is best suited for cartridges. Laser welding, which was not at the birth of cartridge technology, makes it possible to weld thin-sheet blanks firmly and efficiently, and it does this quickly, up to 100 meters of weld per minute, in automatic mode. For cartridge production with its special requirements, welding can be carried out in a protective atmosphere, in order to avoid the formation of slag in the seam.

Further, from the blank, cut by the traditional method for the industry, the bottom of the cartridge is stamped, in which not only the nest for the primer is molded, but also the sleeve for fit into the body of the sleeve. When mounting, the bottom, inserted into the body of the sleeve, is welded by the same laser welding. You can also leave a release under the groove, so as not to perform the operation of turning the liner. Next, the sleeve ends with quite traditional methods: compression of Dultz, heat treatment and lacquering.

The effect of this introduction can be called the rejection of the most difficult and crucial part of the manufacture of the sleeve - a series of hoods. The number of operations for annealing and etching of workpieces is sharply reduced, the most typical defects and defects are eliminated, the volume of waste is reduced. The technology is much easier to automate and increase the pace of production than the traditional approach. This is a necessary condition for increasing output and creating a large supply of ammunition.

It is possible that this article will seem boring to someone. This, however, is understandable, since the overwhelming majority of people who have at least some experience in handling weapons are consumers, not producers of these specific products. But it is necessary that our people do not run wild before the conviction that the cartridges grow on Christmas trees, and had the correct idea of ​​the essence of the matter.
Author:
87 comments
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  1. Mystery12345
    Mystery12345 28 February 2017 05: 53
    +9
    production is certainly not simple ... BUT, comrade, Author, could you please indicate how many million cartridges can produce one enterprise per shift? The book "Artillery Supply in the Great Patriotic War" says that during 1942, 3 billion rifle cartridges, 37 million hand grenades, 16,8 million 76-mm divisions, 4,6 million 122 were sent to the troops mm howitzer shots. that is, in the Great War 3 billion-well, but now, with the current army 18-20 will not be enough? for half a year only? that the author is exaggerating ...
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 28 February 2017 07: 19
      +14
      Quote: Mystery12345
      , The author, could you indicate how many million cartridges can produce one enterprise per shift

      We look here, the beginning of the article ...
      cartridge stocks are estimated at 18-20 billion pieces,
      It’s not worth reading further, because a very limited circle of people knows what and how much in warehouses. The figure is not just from the sky, but he probably liked it
      1. Maki Avellevich
        Maki Avellevich 28 February 2017 07: 49
        +7
        quote
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        It’s not worth reading further, because a very limited circle of people knows what and how much in warehouses. The figure is not just from the sky, but he probably liked it


        Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead.
        Benjamin Franklin
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 28 February 2017 08: 08
          +5
          Quote: Maki Avellievich
          Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead.

          Tell the secret services of the state of Israel about this. wink
          1. Maki Avellevich
            Maki Avellevich 28 February 2017 08: 26
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Tell the secret services of the state of Israel about this.


            thank. they are already aware, as are the services of other countries. wink
          2. Felix99
            Felix99 28 February 2017 12: 47
            +3
            They and the Dead Sea will spin up a conversation, and then they will be sentenced to death for the genocide of Sadom and Gomoria.
            1. Temples
              Temples 2 March 2017 12: 44
              +1
              so that our people do not run wild until we are convinced that the cartridges grow on Christmas trees, and have a correct idea of ​​the essence of the matter.


              The author is familiar with the processes of milking cows, producing guitar strings, growing cucumbers in a greenhouse, blowing aircraft models in a pipe, welding in argon, etc. etc??? Does the author consider himself run wild from ignorance of at least one process?
              Perhaps convulsing from the inability to knit socks?

              And who told the author what exactly he had "the correct idea of ​​the merits"?

              With regards to the growth of cartridges on Christmas trees ...
              The cartridges actually live in the nests, and a normal pair of nest cartridges during their short life hatch up to three thousand eggs. From which cartridges hatch.
              And this is the "correct idea of ​​the essence of the matter."
              1. wehr
                2 March 2017 18: 41
                0
                You are not outraged by something. We must be outraged by the statements that cartridges can be made in macaroni and tobacco factories, as some believe.

                Or you too ... of these?
      2. svp67
        svp67 28 February 2017 13: 16
        +3
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        cartridge stocks are estimated at 18-20 billion pieces,

        And I have another question, and who evaluated and what took the price?
        The author, with all due respect to his work, has a number of DELUSIVE and PROSPECT ideas.
        1. Even if we accept the figure expressed by him of 18 ... 000 cartridges for faith, as the original, then it does not mean anything. It simply states the possible capacity of known repositories. Why, yes, because if you take ONLY small arms, then the equipment has
        -5,45 mm cartridges for PSM
        - 5, 45 mm cartridges for AK-74 of all modifications, 5,45 mm AK "hundredth series", RPK-74 and RPK-16
        7,62 mm cartridges for PC - all modifications, SVD - all modifications
        9 mm cartridges for PM, PMM, APS
        9 mm cartridges for the "PYA"
        9 mm cartridges for BCC and ABC
        12,7 mm cartridges for NSV and all its modifications
        14,5 mm cartridges for KPVT
        And also, for those withdrawn from service, but in storage
        7,62 mm cartridges for TT, PPD, PPSh, PPS
        7,62 mm cartridges for AK, AKM, SKS

        This already shows that there are a LOT of types of cartridges, and if they also begin to be broken down into brands, such as TS, LPS, B-32, BZT, MZD and so on, then it should become clear what size the sheets are stored in the GRAU services and headquarters.
        So, in order to somehow facilitate the calculations for the battle, the stocks are divided into single ammunition, ammunition units, units, formations. That is, what is approved by the Order of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the Commander of the District Forces per unit of small arms or military equipment.
        For a single soldier of an armed AK-74, it is installed in 150 rounds. To perform a specific operation, he can take with him two and three b / c. But the calculations are carried out precisely in b / c. Plus, in the rear of the company, the battalion and the regiment, a reserve is being created, calculated again in the b / c.
        Now this is a soldier with an AK, but next to him there will be soldiers with different weapons, for whom excellent ammunition is used and it turns out that the previously given figure, of the alleged presence in storage does not mean anything, except for its striking scale.
        Since the rate of consumption of ammunition is limited by the established norm in the order. And that's how you want, but spend them wisely. Of course, when he cooks, the senior commander will do everything to replenish the ammunition of the units conducting the battle. But after the battle with the Commander will be asked, strictly for an overrun. Therefore, all the cartridges will not fly out in one month ...
        Well, the other. The author again tries to develop the idea of ​​using a combustible sleeve, but I want to offer him another. The use of LMW (liquid propellant), instead of gunpowder. So it is possible to simplify the production of cartridges to a minimum, reducing them to the production of a single bullet, and significantly increase the wearer b / c fighter ...
        1. bunta
          bunta 28 February 2017 14: 04
          +4
          Quote: svp67
          Use of LMW (liquid propellant) instead of gunpowder


          Utopia. Forget it. When using LMW, an oxidizing agent is needed. In ICE, this is oxygen from the air. In ICE, even in detonation mode, the pressure does not exceed 200 atm. And you need 3000. If you use a liquid oxidizer (liquid oxygen) - you can not get fast combustion. Not to mention the solution to sealing problems and more.
          1. svp67
            svp67 28 February 2017 17: 51
            +1
            Quote: bunta
            Utopia. Forget it.

            This "utopia" has long passed all possible phases of testing ...
            Read at least this:
            https://topwar.ru/38534-kak-vydumali-zhidkiy-poro
            h-ili-pulemet-on-kerosene.html
            1. bunta
              bunta 28 February 2017 19: 23
              +3
              Have you read carefully?
              [quote] The roar of RD led us to the idea of ​​using liquid rocket fuel in guns instead of gunpowder с continuous injection him into the lumbar space throughout the duration of the shot. [/ quote]
              [Quote]
              There was a problem of injecting liquid into a space where the pressure reached several thousand atmospheres. [/ Quote]
              [quote] a charge of 4 grams of kerosene and 15 grams nitric acid, instead of 32 grams of regular powder charge [/ Quote]
              Nitric acid in handguns doesn’t seem like a thought?
              1. svp67
                svp67 28 February 2017 19: 38
                +3
                Quote: bunta
                Nitric acid in handguns doesn’t seem like a thought?

                Well this is the first steps, now there are other solutions
                Distinguish between single-component and two-component LMFs:

                Monergols (single-compact charge) - liquid homogeneous propellant charges, consisting of pure compounds with high energy, or mixtures that form gases through an intermolecular reaction (for example, propyl nitrate) or catalytic decomposition (for example, hydrogen peroxide, hydrazine and ethylene oxide) .

                Diergols (a two-component charge) are pure or mixed liquid fuels and oxidizing agents that are stored separately and then mixed to cause a reaction in the combustion chamber. Diergoli are divided into self-igniting and non-self-igniting. Self-igniting dergols mix directly in the chamber before firing. Non-combustible dergols can be mixed in advance, however, an igniter (e.g. pyrotechnic or electric) is required to initiate them.
                Scheme of СО under LMW
                1. bunta
                  bunta 28 February 2017 20: 47
                  +4
                  Ethylene oxide, hydrazine are excluded for the same reason as nitric acid.
                  On two-component you did not write anything. In any case, there will be fuel and oxidizer. And they are all poisonous. But these are flowers. Disposable shops, providing tightness for aggressive liquids at a temperature difference of 100 degrees. Ensuring dosing accuracy at any temperature for a guaranteed spread of speeds of not more than 5 m / s. The aggressiveness of the combustion products on the inner surface of the barrel. But the vapors do not immediately burn out, they come into contact with the barrel for some time, the same nitric acid or hydrazine under high pressure and even at high temperature - which metal 20 000 can withstand shots, not to mention valves. Now all this hydraulics should provide advantages in comparison with a conventional cartridge at least 1,5 times. Suppose we want to increase the initial bullet speed to at least 1350 m / s. But this is achieved only by increasing the pressure in the bore, that is, by thickening it or by an expensive steel grade.

                  IMHO, the more correct direction is the development of gunpowder with an increased flash point, heat and gas recovery, and a polymer sleeve with the strength of steel.
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 2 March 2017 03: 22
                    0
                    Quote: bunta
                    a more correct direction is the development of gunpowder with an increased flash point, heat and gas recovery, and a polymer sleeve with the strength of steel.

                    This option also has a lot of flaws.
                    Let's start with the fact that nitric acid is also used in the manufacture of gunpowder, respectively, during combustion. The polymer sleeve is very clogging the chamber with combustion products, which leads to the need for cleaning, very frequent, otherwise failures, etc., etc. ...
        2. wehr
          28 February 2017 23: 57
          0
          I talked about the stock of cartridges for AK, that is, 7,62 and 5,45 mm. I do not have the opportunity to assess the availability and reserves of cartridges of other types. But from the experience of studying the cartridge economy of the Second World War, I know that two types of cartridges were then dominated: the 7,62 screw cartridge and the 7,62 TT cartridge. So now, in the first place will be the cartridge 5,45, in the second place 7,62 to the PC and AK, and then all the other types. Therefore, the consumption of ammunition in the army will be determined by the consumption of these two types.

          Further, the experience of the Second World War and the war in Afghanistan very clearly shows that they are trying to get more ammunition, much more than the estimated rate. The Afghan experience says: saving on ammunition is often paid for by losses and battered equipment. And you will agree that the commander will be asked much more strictly for the failure of the operation than for the overrun of cartridges.
          Because I am in favor of having more ammunition.

          Iron ore is a good thing. However, requiring experimentation and research for my taste. For an iron ore, for example, an aqueous solution of ammonium nitrate is suitable, which decomposes with good gas emission. But it is not very clear to me how this mixture behaves in weapons and how exactly to ensure the conditions for its decomposition.
          A combustible liner makes the most of the accumulated technical arsenal of technologies, both in production and in weapons. GWM is something fundamentally new.
          1. murriou
            murriou 1 March 2017 10: 00
            +3
            Quote: wehr
            For HMW, for example, an aqueous solution of ammonium nitrate is suitable, which decomposes with good gas evolution.

            Not certainly in that way. Decomposition of amcelitter gives NH4NO3 = 2H2O + N2O, i.e. only 1 molecule of the actual gas per 1 molecule of nitrate, but the heat release turns water into steam, which simulates the "gas evolution".
            But at the same time, if pure nitrate is able to decompose spontaneously, then it will not work out from its aqueous solution without external heating, so the idea is doubtful.

            Moreover, the nitrate solution is a strong electrolyte and stimulates corrosion. At high concentrations, temperature changes cause precipitation of the solid phase and clogging of pipelines, and at low concentrations the beneficial effect disappears altogether.
            1. wehr
              1 March 2017 11: 21
              +2
              That's because this topic requires some additional work.
              A flammable sleeve can be created quickly.
      3. iConst
        iConst 28 February 2017 13: 50
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        The figure is not just from the sky, but he probably liked it

        I, too, in the previous article “played around with the numbers. And somehow it didn’t roll.
        According to the author (quoted from a previous article):
        From here we can take the following coefficient: an army of 100 thousand people during the hostilities spends 300 million pieces of ammunition per month ...

        Moreover, the 40th Army was taken as a basis.
        If you take these 100 thousand people l / s and start isolating from them:
        - Headquarters and other
        - Signalers (of which there are many)
        - Rear (also not a little)
        - Air Force - if there are not so many pilots themselves, then techies and security will give a percentage that cannot be ignored.

        At least a third (from the ceiling - let the military correct) - 30 thousand people are those who do not "bullet" often or not at all. And if this happened - then this is most likely - the khan - "the last and decisive."

        We have: 300 million / for 70 thousand l / s / 30 days = ~ 140 rounds per day should burn each!

        I understand that during a battle 140 rounds of ammunition — five minutes — but this whole army must fight without a break. But this does not happen.

        Hence the conclusion:
        1. the numbers are not correct (a zero or two accidentally appeared)
        2. if the numbers are correct - just the cartridges went "to the left" - long live Voentorg!

        smile
        1. svp67
          svp67 28 February 2017 20: 13
          +3
          Quote: iConst
          Moreover, the 40th Army was taken as a basis.

          Quote: iConst
          - Air Force - if there are not so many pilots themselves, then techies and security will give a percentage that cannot be ignored.

          And here is the OVERLOOK, but why are our helicopters being discarded? After all, the same machine guns were installed on them ... terribly voracious, that is, fast-firing. Consequently, one Mi24 pilot, per day, could “burn” a rather significant amount of ammunition for CO 7,62 mm and 12,7 mm
          1. iConst
            iConst 28 February 2017 21: 56
            +1
            Quote: svp67
            And here is the OVERLOOK, but why are our helicopters being discarded? After all, the same machine guns were installed on them ... terribly voracious, that is, fast-firing. Consequently, one Mi24 pilot, per day, could “burn” a rather significant amount of ammunition for CO 7,62 mm and 12,7 mm

            About 7.62 did not find - from Internet sources, the early modifications of the Mi-24 used 12.7mm machine guns. Later ones were already equipped with GS-23.

            Then you need to decide what we think. The author speaks exclusively about individual small arms - just read the article. 12,7 already somehow does not quite fit into the discussion.
            1. svp67
              svp67 1 March 2017 13: 39
              +2
              Quote: iConst
              The author speaks exclusively about individual small arms - just read the article.

              But no one shares what small arms these munitions from personal or group were spent
              Quote: iConst
              About 7.62 did not find - from Internet sources, the early modifications of the Mi-24 used 12.7mm machine guns.


              GUV-8700 machine-gun container with two GShG-7,62 machine guns and one YakB-12,7
              In the GUV-8700 mounted one machine gun YakB-12,7 with 750 rounds and two machine guns GShG-7,62 with ammunition for 1800 rounds. The Mi-24 helicopter could take on board two such GUVs simultaneously, in this case, the total rate of fire from integrated and outboard weapons could reach an astronomical value of 37000 rounds per minute (more than 600 bullets per second).
              Source: http://www.modernarmy.ru/article/471/pulemet-jkb © Portal "Modern Army"
              And I'm not talking about the "bees", they were first registered infantry PC

              And then the PCT ...


        2. wehr
          28 February 2017 23: 19
          +1
          Yes, pretty accurate counting. In the combat units of OXV, there were 73 thousands of people.
          At the same time, of them, 20,2, thousands, sat on 862 guard posts and posts, prepared for all-round defense, in which clashes with the Mujahideen were not uncommon. Participants recall that they took as many cartridges as they could carry, or how many could be loaded onto an armored troop-carrier or a turntable. The stock of cartridges reached zinc per AK, PKM could have up to 3000 cartridges per barrel. Moreover, a significant part of this stock was shot, because the battles were heavy and protracted. In addition, there were ambushes, raids behind caravans, military and private operations. 426 planned operations and unplanned 47 operations, an average of 59 per year, were performed.
          So the specific consumption of 140 cartridges per barrel per day is understandable. This is precisely the arithmetic mean value, whereas there were units in which little was fired, and there were those who spent several hundred rounds of ammunition per barrel per day.
    2. Evgenii Xolod
      Evgenii Xolod 28 February 2017 12: 00
      +1
      Rate of fire increased at times, therefore, the stock should be appropriate. Now in the horn of cartridges as in the whole pouch of a WWII soldier. Although maybe I'm wrong and the consumption of BC decreased.
      1. murriou
        murriou 1 March 2017 10: 05
        +2
        Quote: Evgenii Xolod
        Now in the horn of cartridges as in the whole pouch of a WWII soldier.

        At the time of the Second World War, the Mosin rifle BC comprised an equipped magazine (5 rounds), 2 loaded cartridges (2 * 5 = 10) plus 120 rounds in bulk and in boxes, a total of 135 rounds, and this was enough for 10-15 minutes of intense combat.

        And there were these boxes or placers in the Sidor system bag, pouches were not standard equipment at that time.
        1. Niccola Mack
          Niccola Mack 1 March 2017 14: 55
          +1
          At the time of the Second World War, the Mosin rifle BC comprised an equipped magazine (5 rounds), 2 loaded cartridges (2 * 5 = 10) plus 120 rounds in bulk and in boxes, a total of 135 rounds, and this was enough for 10-15 minutes of intense combat.

          They already wrote about it with might and main and it turns out anyway - the Red Army is almost completely armed with a three-line.
          Where does this thesis come from?
          Those who fired the most - fighters of rifle companies and reconnaissance divisions were armed mainly with SVT (fired until the end of the war), PPSh and DP + maxims (SG-43). They were about a third of the total number of units.
          Moreover, by the end of the war, the front line units had sharply shifted their balance towards PPSh and PPS. Entire subunits of machine gunners appeared, which the Germans never had.
          So their cartridge consumption is likely to be even greater than it is now for the AK-74 (RPK) + RMB bundle.
          And a total of 17 billion were shot during the war.
          This is the question of the fantastic calculations of modern consumption.

          About the "10-15 minutes of battle" - apparently the Germans in the Second World War, the "spirits" in Afghanistan and the NATO in case of war, the "endless ammunition" button was issued for weapons. And they, unlike us, had no problems with this - especially the "spirits". But ours shot everything "in 15 minutes" and remained unarmed.
          1. murriou
            murriou 1 March 2017 22: 29
            +1
            I envy your exuberant imagination and ability to read not at all what is written laughing

            I just gave a little information about the BK for the mosquito, which, in the opinion of the previous speaker, is less than one horn for the AK (actually 4,5 horns) - and 30 rounds of fighter with the mosquito would be enough for ~ 3 minutes of an intense battle, if anyone forgot how to count.

            I can give one more help.

            Production of the Mosin rifle of all modifications, including carbines, from 1891 to 1965. They are estimated at 37 million, of which 12,5 million during the Second World War, from the start of production to the start of the nuclear explosives 3,8 million, from the start of production to the beginning of the WWII 4,5 million, during the WWII to 3,3 million, from the modernization of 1930. Before the war, approx. 6 million, in the prewar period (1938-1940), the production rate was over 1 million per year.

            SVT production 1,6 million in total, of which up to 1 million before the war.
            Production of PCA during the war years 5,4 million.
            PPP production, including after the war, up to 2 million

            And I give everyone to consider and draw conclusions lol
            1. Niccola Mack
              Niccola Mack 2 March 2017 06: 12
              0
              and the ability to read is not at all what is written

              And it was written about real and understandable things for me - mostly first-line fighters were armed with automatic weapons - who practically consumed the bulk of the cartridges. And in their pouches (duffel bags, etc.) along with the cartridge 7,62 * 54 there were 1,5-2 times more cartridges 7,62 * 25 (the Tokarevsky cartridge was 2 times shorter and weighed about one bullet at "trilinear").
              And again, the three-line - as well as the SVT, consumed several times less ammunition than the Degtyarev DP, DPM, DT (about 800 thousand pieces) + maxim and SG-43.

              And as a result of incomprehensible extrapolations from the three-ruler to the AK, the author obtains fantastic figures for the consumption of cartridges - especially in the first part of the article.
    3. wehr
      28 February 2017 12: 56
      +3
      If we take the productivity of the Barnaul cartridge plant in 2015 year - 420 million units per year, then the shift will be 1,7 million units.
  2. Teberii
    Teberii 28 February 2017 07: 36
    +1
    Combustible sleeve does not entail barrel wear, continuous cleaning.
    1. Maki Avellevich
      Maki Avellevich 28 February 2017 08: 55
      +1
      Quote: Teberii
      Combustible sleeve does not entail barrel wear


      ?
      1. Felix99
        Felix99 28 February 2017 12: 48
        +1
        There, the bullet is also combustible
        1. iConst
          iConst 28 February 2017 13: 52
          +1
          Quote: Felix99
          There, the bullet is also combustible

          - And the store and so on ... lol
          1. Catherine II
            Catherine II 28 February 2017 15: 18
            +2
            scared to think about the arrow.
            1. CooL_SnipeR
              CooL_SnipeR 28 February 2017 23: 43
              +1
              It is also combustible ... apparently for obvious reasons wassat
    2. uskrabut
      uskrabut 28 February 2017 10: 37
      +1
      But what about the barrel’s heating during firing and self-ignition of this combustible sleeve? And the modernization of small arms for such ammunition? There are more questions than answers. Nevertheless, it is better to improve the technology and look at other materials, for example, fluoroplastic.
      1. wehr
        28 February 2017 12: 57
        0
        Can see here
        https://topwar.ru/105670-sgorayuschaya-gilza.html
      2. wehr
        28 February 2017 12: 58
        0
        Can see here
        https://topwar.ru/105670-sgorayuschaya-gilza.html
      3. wehr
        28 February 2017 12: 58
        0
        Can see here
        https://topwar.ru/105670-sgorayuschaya-gilza.html
      4. wehr
        28 February 2017 12: 59
        0
        You can see the answers to your questions in this my article.
        https://topwar.ru/105670-sgorayuschaya-gilza.html
      5. lukewarm
        lukewarm 28 February 2017 14: 37
        0
        Quote: uskrabut
        fluoroplastic for example.

        How's that?
    3. jjj
      jjj 28 February 2017 11: 25
      0
      Quote: Teberii
      Combustible sleeve does not entail barrel wear, continuous cleaning.

      The sleeve finds another hole for the exit
  3. _Vlad_
    _Vlad_ 28 February 2017 08: 38
    +2
    the author would not hurt to examine the mat part,
    tech.read read three years.
    and then push the sentences .. hi
  4. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 28 February 2017 09: 07
    +2
    There is no doubt that the cartridge is a technologically sophisticated product. But the supply of these same cartridges is constantly replenished, because the old ones are shot at firing and combat training exercises, in addition, a reserve in excess of the established norm for the presence of b / p is needed. Therefore, arguing on this topic is an empty lesson.
  5. soul
    soul 28 February 2017 09: 14
    +6
    Quote: Mystery12345
    18-20 will not be enough with the current army? for half a year only? that the author is exaggerating ...

    Probably worth reading the first article - there the author explains his point of view.
    I agree with the author. The topic is relevant.
  6. nivander
    nivander 28 February 2017 09: 55
    +2
    Fritz organized a whole factory for remaking Soviet b / p to the German standard. And then built two more (Velikiye Luki, Chudovo) to adapt the German b / p to the Soviet captured machine guns
  7. Kenneth
    Kenneth 28 February 2017 10: 26
    +1
    Long live the gun of Gaus
  8. Sasha75
    Sasha75 28 February 2017 10: 53
    +8
    The author did not indicate the price of the road cartridge, whether it is cheap or not, did not even compare the cost of domestic and foreign main ammunition. The man in this swim, however, like all moderators here. I got a warning because the stupid moderator did not see the difference in cartridges 7.65X17 and 7.62X25 and with foam at the mouth proved that the cartridges are the same. We are stuffed with another nonsense. And why the answer is simple for the editor and the moderators are the same as the author of the article; specialists of wide non-knowledge are swimming in everything.
    1. apricot_45
      apricot_45 28 February 2017 11: 52
      +2
      the cost of the cartridge 7,62x39 is low. I buy them (sports and hunting FMG) in the store for 7-20 - 8-00 rubles. apiece, i.e. you can imagine what the cost of production. Yes, and a lot of them are being produced per shift! simple - no order
      1. Sasha75
        Sasha75 28 February 2017 14: 33
        +1
        Under the USSR, the Ministry of Internal Affairs bought 1 kopek from the Moscow Region for two rounds; it was the price of a matchbox.
    2. Evdokim
      Evdokim 28 February 2017 12: 14
      +2
      Yes. Cartridges do not grow on Christmas trees. At any time, the question of price will always be at the forefront. And this applies not only to cartridges, but also to other ammunition. Dear b / p will ruin the country before it wins or surrenders. Cost reduction is just as necessary as an increase in production. Then the question arises - What to do in abundance? To stock up on a hypothetical war, for real money, most likely which will have to be disposed of later, again for not feeble money, or to be able to deploy production in a matter of days. Many more questions.
    3. Felix99
      Felix99 28 February 2017 12: 52
      0
      Just a reason to have some fun.
  9. Vovanya
    Vovanya 28 February 2017 11: 30
    +2
    The author is right that in the near future it will be necessary to switch to a cartridgeless cartridge, so now we need to create weapons for this cartridge.
    1. Felix99
      Felix99 28 February 2017 12: 54
      0
      weapons already created, hopelessly.
  10. Vadim237
    Vadim237 28 February 2017 11: 43
    +1
    Someday 3D printing will be connected to the production of cartridges and bullets.
    1. lukewarm
      lukewarm 28 February 2017 14: 39
      0
      I think the performance will be much lower. As well as the characteristics of the material used
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 28 February 2017 18: 58
        0
        It all depends on the size of the 3D printer.
  11. twincam
    twincam 28 February 2017 13: 23
    +1
    in extreme cases, we will squeeze the trunks from the enemy.
  12. Sasha75
    Sasha75 28 February 2017 14: 44
    +5
    The whole layer of features of our and Western ammunition will not be affected. The storage time with us it is not to mention the materials from which they are made from them; brass is an expensive material. The use of a steel core again reduces the cost of the cartridge less lead, it is more expensive, and the cartridge becomes more efficient.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 28 February 2017 18: 59
      +2
      Better tungsten carbide for the core.
  13. vvvjak
    vvvjak 28 February 2017 14: 50
    +4
    My friend served in army warehouses in Belarus. Their beginning the unit said a phrase of the plan "if every day I send a train of cartridges from my unit, then 10 years should be for the transportation of all stored ammunition."
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 28 February 2017 19: 00
      0
      And the echelon is how many trucks?
      1. prosto_rgb
        prosto_rgb 28 February 2017 19: 54
        +2
        Quote: Vadim237
        And the echelon is how many trucks?

        Railway echelon of 50-60 cars
        carrying capacity of 1 wagon 60 tons
  14. tat_shurik
    tat_shurik 28 February 2017 15: 00
    +4
    Burning sleeves are very expensive. Liquid gunpowder - IMHO it is possible to use only in large calibers, the dispenser will be too complicated and capricious. And it seems to me that the most promising for WAR time cartridges with short (up to a year or two) shelf life is the creation of a sleeve with a metal bottom (possibly together with a cap of small height and a notch for adhesion to the main body of the sleeve) and high-strength plastic (capron, fluoroplastic) on the main body of the sleeve. The metal bottom will ensure the reliable operation of the extractor, and plastic - much more technologically advanced than steel and does not require long stretching operations. the gas pressure at the moment of the shot will be assumed by the chamber and the shutter, and the elastic properties and low coefficient of friction of the plastic will make it easy to remove the cartridge from the chamber.
    1. prosto_rgb
      prosto_rgb 28 February 2017 20: 10
      +1
      Quote: tat_shurik
      And it seems to me that the most promising for WAR time cartridges with short (up to a year or two) shelf life is the creation of a sleeve with a metal bottom (possibly together with a cap of small height and a notch for adhesion to the main body of the sleeve) and high-strength plastic (capron, fluoroplastic) on the main body of the sleeve. The metal bottom will ensure the reliable operation of the extractor, and plastic - much more technologically advanced than steel and does not require long stretching operations. the gas pressure at the moment of the shot will be assumed by the chamber and the shutter, and the elastic properties and low coefficient of friction of the plastic will make it easy to remove the cartridge from the chamber.

      such already exist in the west
      the truth is not suitable for all types of small arms
      and + there is just the main problem the separation of the metal bottom from the plastic cup
      http://zbroya.info/ru/blog/2209_polimernye-gilzy-
      fantaziia-ili-realnost /
      in bourgeois, but with the video
      http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/pcp-ammo-review
      /
      look like this:
  15. Dmitry Talin
    Dmitry Talin 28 February 2017 15: 11
    +1
    After this, it is hardly believed that one cartridge of 7,62 is purchased from us at a price of 8 rubles. At least 80 p. I would ask the state all 120 per piece. Although what is the point of all this when there will be no such war? There is nuclear weapons. Although the presence of the same nuclear weapons did not prevent the Chinese by force to overcome Domansky, making the Russians terpils in 1969. In 2005, I didn’t even have to give a shot ... But in general - a dark story with these cartridges. My father, in a great and powerful SA, didn’t take an oath anywhere but the AK. They didn’t even let them shoot. But this is Transbaikalia, where it is believed that being able to shoot is not a must.

    It seems to me that there are neither billions of cartridges, nor 17 million AK lying in oil. All that is is stocks from the Second World War and some of the troops withdrawn by the police department. All.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 28 February 2017 19: 07
      +1
      There are reserves from the Great Patriotic War and everything that was stuck in the USSR until 1991. In general, it’s time to switch to new cartridges, as in the USA, to a cartridge of 6,5 mm.
      1. Cat man null
        Cat man null 28 February 2017 19: 26
        +3
        Quote: Vadim237
        in general, it’s time to switch to new cartridges, as in the USA to the millimeter 6,5 cartridge

        - nafuagra?
        - Is it time, or can I wait?
        - how much does it cost to go, is there enough money? wink

        Quote: Vadim237
        in USSR stuck Until 1991 year

        - from the word "clip", probably ... request

        Vadim! If you weren’t, you would have to come up with love
  16. Catherine II
    Catherine II 28 February 2017 15: 23
    +5
    in any small detail of the modern world, all the technological power of civilization is concentrated. Cartridge is no exception. Metallurgy, chemistry, physics, etc. .. a simple thing .. but the author wants us to understand that the production of simple things requires not only a lot of technological, but also organizational effort.
    I was interested, because it seemed that the cartridges were either accumulated or produced in a stream, but with the presence of factories, machine tools, personnel ...
  17. Mwg
    Mwg 28 February 2017 15: 56
    +2
    250 pcs / min X 60 = 15 000 X 8 hour shift = 120 000 per day X 24 work. days = 2 pcs. per month X 880 automatic rotor lines = 000 million per month.
    Not sour.
    The 30-round horn is discharged in a continuous burst in 3 seconds.
    144: 000 sec = 000 sec: 3 = 48 min: 000 = 000 hours of continuous firing: 60 = 800 days of continuous firing from a single barrel.
    Well, and so on ...
  18. Captain Pushkin
    Captain Pushkin 28 February 2017 16: 29
    +3
    Quote: Mystery12345
    in the Great War, 3 billion-not bad, but now, with the current army 18-20 will not be enough? for half a year only? that the author is exaggerating ...

    I recall the memoirs of one fighter, according to him, all 1942 he fought with a German rifle - there weren’t enough cartridges for ours, but for the German rifle there were "cartridges".
  19. Captain Pushkin
    Captain Pushkin 28 February 2017 16: 43
    +3
    Quote: svp67
    Well, the other. The author again tries to develop the idea of ​​using a combustible sleeve, but I want to offer him another. The use of LMW (liquid propellant), instead of gunpowder. So it is possible to simplify the production of cartridges to a minimum, reducing them to the production of a single bullet, and significantly increase the wearer b / c fighter ...

    Artillery engineers have been working on this idea for seventy years with a ponytail. It is especially relevant for tank guns and ultra-long-range guns. (For example, gunpowder allows you to get an initial speed of about 2000 m / s maximum. Liquid propellants would make it possible to get a maximum initial speed of up to 3000 m / s. For a projectile with this speed, metal armor does not exist. Moreover, the projectile may not be a tungsten alloy, but ordinary copper disc.).
    But, alas, until such guns are put into service in the foreseeable future, the task was too complicated.
    This despite the fact that a prototype during WWII in the caliber of 14,5 mm with a copper bullet pierced the tank like plywood.
  20. Disorder
    Disorder 28 February 2017 18: 30
    +3
    Here zhezh restless. laughing
    Well, here the author also issued.
    We will not consider cartridges without shells or with a burning sleeve, since we still need to develop weapons for them.
    Option one: a seamless thin-walled tube (such tubes are the most durable and are used for pipelines operating under high pressure). First, a billet pipe is sewn, which is then rolled into a tube of the desired diameter and desired wall thickness. After heat treatment and cutting into billets, the body of the sleeve is ready for further stages.

    So traditional sleeves are made by the same technology, and immediately with the formation of the bottom. And in the case of the tube, accurate positioning is required before welding, not to mention the fact that the weld has lower strength. Here comes the bottom and how to pick out the body of the sleeve?
    Option Two: welded tube. It can be welded from a strip rolled into a tube, or a spiral-wound strip. So do large-diameter pipes under high pressure for trunk pipelines. However, very small tubular products, such as medical needles, are also manufactured using the same technology. The billet for the needle is rolled up from a steel plate, then it is welded by a laser, after which it is gradually rolled to the required size.

    And how does the author imagine the manufacture of such a sleeve? This is not a straight pipe, and not a medical needle, designed for low pressure, which also rolls after welding. In addition, the bottom of the sleeve will still have to be stamped and welded separately.
    The effect of this introduction can be called the rejection of the most difficult and crucial part of the manufacture of the sleeve - a series of hoods. The number of operations for annealing and etching of workpieces is sharply reduced, the most typical defects and defects are eliminated, the volume of waste is reduced. The technology is much easier to automate and increase the pace of production than the traditional approach. This is a necessary condition for increasing output and creating a large supply of ammunition.

    In addition to the fact that the welded or drawn tubes will be manufactured on a separate machine, operations to form the body of the sleeve, including annealing and etching, will not go anywhere. With such technologies, defects and defects will appear, and there will be more of them than with traditional technology.
    1. wehr
      1 March 2017 23: 37
      +1
      Well, yes, restless. Because there is a problem and it needs to be solved while there is a peaceful time. Belief in patriotic myths my store does not fill.

      Not. Stamping of the bottom is a separate operation with annealing, etching, washing and drying put after them.

      When mounting the cartridge, the capsule is precisely inserted and pressed, and the bullet is put and clamped. What is the difficulty in putting and clamping a separate bottom before welding?
      I do not see a particular problem, the weld from laser welding is strong enough, due to a good dip and the absence of slags in the weld (from which there can be weak welding). The laser is different from other types of welding. In addition, for the sake of strength, the bottom can be planted in the tube hot, and the tube, when cooled, will crush it.

      As I imagine, I described in detail.

      Yes, a separate rolling mill will be required. Yes, there is a marriage and defects. However, the gain is also noticeable, since such tubes can be rolled much faster than pulling one sleeve, and rolling blanks of tens of meters, with a total production volume in kilometers of tubes.
      1. Disorder
        Disorder 2 March 2017 09: 36
        +1
        Yes, you already got your whining about the lack of ammunition. Even during World War II, when many warehouses were lost and the factories were evacuated, there was no shortage of cartridges.
        Any seam, even a laser, has obviously lower strength.
        I will not try to analyze: how many additional machines will be required, and what operations will appear in return.
        I will ask a simple question - If the proposed technology has such advantages, then why are shells made using traditional technology still in the world?
        1. wehr
          2 March 2017 12: 44
          +1
          The war will begin, I will not share the patrons with you - let me remind you about the phrase "whining" laughing

          The last question is the answer: because there has not been a big war for a long time.
  21. Pushkar
    Pushkar 28 February 2017 19: 38
    +2
    Thanks to the author for the article. It is impossible to speak about specific figures, but the situation with ammunition and shells is really abnormal. The proposal to change the production technology (from a thin-walled tube) is interesting to those who work on this topic, you can tell - a stainless steel food pipe (10-12 mm) is produced at the mills of pipe plants, in particular MTZ Filit. There are two Japanese lines.
  22. Niccola Mack
    Niccola Mack 1 March 2017 13: 50
    +2
    But it is a necessity that our people do not run wild to the conviction that the cartridges grow on Christmas trees, and have a correct idea of ​​the essence of the matter.

    Now, if someone has a desire, they can easily find information on the Web about the technology for producing cartridges, including rotor lines. So the author somehow went too far with "primitive ideas."
    Those who have no desire will get a primitive idea after watching the screen saver of the movie "Armory Harrow" with Nicolas Cage.
    There, in principle, the process itself is indicated correctly (although simplified to the limit) - with the exception of absolutely inappropriate packaging (without zinc) in the boxes and absolutely dibilny marking on them.
    But this is Hollywood !!!
  23. Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 1 March 2017 16: 40
    +2
    Again, this very informed author with a "cartridge theme", I wonder where you get such data? Do you have an informant friend in the RF Ministry of Defense? Why discuss this nonsense ... even if there is a problem, I think the Ministry of Defense knows its solution .... and so wait soon you will be invited by a supply consultant!
  24. beeper
    beeper 1 March 2017 22: 34
    +1
    I liked the technology for manufacturing syringe needles, thanks, Dmitry! hi
    And about the urgency of combustible light rifle ammunition is very relevant and future wink IMHO! That's just what you need to design for them a simple weapon that shoots from an open bolt, the problem of self-ignition will disappear radically and you can even experiment with springless disposable store kits, initially equipped at the cartridge factory, then there will be no unnecessary trouble with stressing stores with all-round cartridges during the battle negative , under enemy fire ...
    1. wehr
      1 March 2017 23: 26
      +1
      You are welcome!

      The arguments about the design of weapons under a combustible cartridge I had in another article.
    2. bunta
      bunta 2 March 2017 06: 00
      +2
      Quote: pishchak
      to experiment with springless disposable sets-shops, originally equipped at the cartridge factory,

      Americans have already experimented with the "disposable" in M16. Quickly sobered up.
      1. beeper
        beeper 3 March 2017 01: 53
        +2
        Yeah, somehow it’s buggy with me on this site, it often disappears, gives an “error” and messages do not reach. Well, then I will repeat briefly - I will not answer comprehensively smile
        I had in mind really disposable ammunition assemblies of cartridgeless cartridges, in the function of a "magazine", without settling, during long-term storage, feeding springs and self-utilizing at the first use in weapons, and not American conditionally "disposable" stores from your recent article, Andrei, with whom they "quickly sobered up" when they tried to use obviously one-time cheap stuff many times winked
        Joseph Stalin to a similar link, also to the American experience, of aircraft designer Yakovlev asked him: "Are you really an American?" wink
        We are Russian designers and technologists, not Americans smile Well, maybe a little German G11 experiments!
        hi
  25. Sedoy
    Sedoy 6 March 2017 15: 11
    +1
    you can see

  26. Sedoy
    Sedoy 6 March 2017 15: 14
    +1
    and more


  27. Sedoy
    Sedoy 6 March 2017 15: 15
    +1
    and more

    1. wehr
      6 March 2017 15: 46
      +1
      In-in, as in the case of the adversary.