What is the main machine in the Russian army?

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This year, the tests of two new machines will be completed - AEK-971 and AK-12. One of them will be the main in the Russian army, but which one - until the question, writes Rossiyskaya Gazeta with reference to the expert channel "Star".

What is the main machine in the Russian army?


According to the author of the study, the AEK-971 machine gun, developed at the plant named after Degtyarev, "is the embodiment of bold, and sometimes fantastic, design solutions of the era of developed socialism."

“Its main innovation is the balanced automation scheme. She delivered weapon from the old "disease" - swinging when shooting, which affected the effectiveness of fire bursts. A counterweight was added to the AEK-971 design, equal in weight to the slide group and connected to it by a rack and gear. This device 1,5-2 times increased the effectiveness of the fire compared with the AK-74 "- says the material.

At the same time, the expert notes that there is one weak point in this mechanism - the gear: “It did not provide the machine with due survivability. But it is possible that in the updated version of AEK-971 this problem has already been solved. ”

The machine is equipped with Picatinny rail, sliding telescopic butt, fuse lever duplicated on both sides of the receiver.

Now about the AK-12 Kalashnikov concern. “Designer Vladimir Zlobin planned to create a weapon equally convenient for right-handers and left-handers, and such that with him literally could be controlled by“ one left ”or“ one right ”. That is, to change the store, to send the cartridge with one hand, ”the author writes.

Automatic got an original butt, folding in both directions and adjustable podschechnikom.

However, the expert notes, “as the AK-12 tests more and more it becomes like its progenitor. And the option presented in September 2016 of the year is almost indistinguishable from the Kalashnikov hundredth series. ”

According to him, all the differences lie within. “The architecture of the fastening of the gas outlet and the forearm on the barrel has changed, and it itself has become freely hung out (it practically does not touch other parts of the weapon). This allowed us to achieve monotonous vibrations when shooting and improved the accuracy of the machine gun, ”the article says.

The machine has a barrel box rigidly fixed on both sides, equipped with a Picatinny rail. On the bar there is a mechanical sight, “increasing the length of the sighting line compared to a conventional AK”.

Ak-12 is capable of shooting not only continuous but also short bursts, cutting off the cartridge's 2.

"Both competitors go head to head." The main argument in favor of the AK-12 may be the unification of parts with previous generations of the Kalashnikovs. Consequently, it will be easier to master the production of a new model, and it will affect the cost, ”the author writes.

But AEK-971 already has combat experience: up to 2006, weapons were delivered in small batches to special units of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Machines are well proven.

The expert does not exclude that both automata will be accepted for service in total. "Similar cases in stories countries have already been. And already in the process of operation, it will finally become clear what kind of machine gun is the main one for the Russian army, ”he concludes.
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  1. +23
    2 February 2017 12: 08
    What machine will be the main in the Russian army


    Hike a little more, and this issue will be the third "eternal question" in Russia. After "Who is to blame?" and "What to do?" ...
    1. +8
      2 February 2017 12: 26
      It is necessary to run them in a hot spot and make a decision, maybe both.
      1. +2
        2 February 2017 17: 20
        Regarding the break-in in the "hot spots" I agree, but to adopt two different automatic weapons? I can not understand the meaning
        1. 0
          5 February 2017 13: 29
          Quote: Monarchist
          but adopt two different machine guns? I can not understand the meaning

          ====
          Actually (I’m not too big a specialist in small arms, although not a complete mattress), it seems that AEK is more a weapon for special forces. Nevertheless, it is more complicated and requires a higher qualification of a fighter when servicing weapons. In addition, higher accuracy allows you to save ammunition, which when acting in isolation from their own, it becomes especially relevant! (God forbid, I’m not going to say that front-line motorized rifles are not relevant!).
          But the AK-12 - it seems to me personally more than a motorized infantry weapon. It is still simpler, more familiar ...
          But! I repeat - this is just my "personal" opinion, not claiming the truth in the "last resort"
          PS So why not BOTH produce a sample ??
      2. +4
        2 February 2017 17: 56
        It would be nice to "run around" AEK in our Donbass, all the more so as the main thing is that there is a "positional" war when the trenches are 200-300m away. from a friend. And we have enough good snipers.
        1. 0
          6 February 2017 15: 07
          Quote: Sergey Kranov
          It would be nice to "run" AEK in our Donbass

          ===
          Sorry! Are you “absolutely” sure that ITS aren’t “driven in” ???
    2. +14
      2 February 2017 12: 37
      The expert does not exclude the possibility that both automatic weapons will be taken into service in total.

      AK-12 does not have significant shooting advantages over AK-74
      A-545 does not have sufficient reliability
      They will not accept the wrong one ... and they’ll do it right
      Until they begin to deviate from the principles - a can, a cracker, a piston, the traditional scheme, a decent machine of the 21st century for the Russian army will not work.
      1. +32
        2 February 2017 12: 44
        Quote: Skubudu
        Until they begin to deviate from the principles - a can, a cracker, a piston, the traditional scheme, a decent machine of the 21st century for the Russian army will not work.

        I think the Moscow region will be happy to hear your suggestions regarding the new automation scheme without a gas piston and a tin.
        1. Arh
          +5
          2 February 2017 13: 50
          Yes, here you go, I'm for hope! ! !
      2. +1
        2 February 2017 15: 18
        Beaver. Exhale. ... sometimes though. computer shooting is of course for your part. But about the shooting of the present you are far from "reversing to China." do not transpose your nonsense. But if you are smart, you will marry.
      3. +2
        3 February 2017 06: 10
        If you would like to see another comparison with the best automatic machines in the world, for example, NK-416, Belgian SCAR or Israeli (accuracy, reliability, maintainability, versatility, dimensions and weight), AK’s dimensions are too big for a battle in the city - there’s something to be done .
        1. +2
          3 February 2017 23: 04
          At the expense of accuracy, I agree, but if you have the appropriate skills and can shoot, then at a distance of 100-200 meters the AK is no less accurate, but I would argue about reliability and maintainability in the field. AK can be assembled and disassembled (not complete disassembly), and cleaned on the run (in the presence of deep pockets). This is an example, but try to say in a fight, change something, either on the same 416 having removed spare parts from another and how quickly will it work when time is expensive? This, as in the years of the War, may not be a T34 uncompromising tank, but when the Red Army began to painfully kick the awesomely steep Wehrmacht, the Germans could not make a car equal to T34, because they, the tanks, they say they were more technologically advanced. And where are those Teutons now with their tigers?
          The most important thing is to strike a balance between functionality, cost, and weapon technology. Anyone. What is the use if a super rifle, the best in the world, can be assembled provided that you have a very serious factory and trained personnel. Or an ancient example - sabers or swords, for example, from Damascus steel were not comparable, and victories were obtained by weapons forged from very mediocre metal. I think that both AK12 and AEK will not yield in terms of the totality of opportunities. However, everyone chooses for himself.
          1. +1
            4 February 2017 00: 52
            I understand you very well (you’re still living in World War II), but at the moment, for example, the US army has a huge military budget and due to its technology can easily disassemble any army in the world (examples IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, LIBYA) I think the US armies are the most equipped in the world - they have modern optics, radio sights, thermal imagers, modern ATGM JAWELIN (our best CORNET - it sucks, especially compared to the Israeli SPIKE), at the moment we don’t have all this, if we have so much worse. As for the NK2, it’s a very reliable (as reliable as AK) modern universal automatic machine - I shot and disassembled from it, so there are simply no problems about which you are talking.
            1. +1
              6 February 2017 16: 32
              Quote: raptor1975
              I shot and disassembled it, so about the problems you are talking about - they simply do not exist.

              First, learn to parse and did not parse and then write. You have an opinion about Javelin, and you shot from it and from the cornet, as I believe. AND WHERE????
          2. 0
            6 February 2017 16: 06
            Quote: Navy7981
            AK can be assembled and disassembled (not complete disassembly), and cleaned on the run (in the presence of deep pockets

            You for general development, on the M4, you can remove and put the barrel in the field for 10-15 minutes. all that is needed is a key (preferably a torx) for the barrel and vise (optional).
            In AK, barrel replacement is only possible in the factory
        2. +3
          4 February 2017 11: 55
          I’m afraid that the listed wunderwaffles in the Russian Federation would not have passed even the preliminary tests. Not all the gold that glitters - I mean that not everything that is hung with trims and “tactical” bells and whistles is really reliable for battle.
      4. +4
        3 February 2017 13: 02
        Until they begin to deviate from the principles - tin, cracker, piston, traditional scheme,

        It’s interesting, but who started it to “depart” from the principles and achieved good results.
        Maybe the French - with their FA MAS (who don’t know where to put it now), the Germans - G11 that wasn’t accepted for service (and now they don’t like the G36 - they want to change it, as a result they wouldn’t have to re-adopt the tried and tested "hever" 3 ), the British — something they don’t like about the L85 — especially after Afghanistan (although they ordered a “carrying” to Nekler and they seemed to be “informing”). Americans have been searching for a replacement for M16 for a very long time, but something has so far been unsuccessful - although the “specialists” are buying other samples with might and main.
        Jews seem to be pleased with Galileo - for reasons that are very understandable to us.

        It seems that some "barmalei" and the like do not want to change weapons - but what to change?
        AK both shot and shoots. Maybe they will be smarter than many?
      5. +1
        6 February 2017 15: 09
        Quote: Skubudu
        Until they begin to deviate from the principles - a can, a cracker, a piston, the traditional scheme, a decent machine of the 21st century for the Russian army will not work.

        ====
        Excuse me generously, but what should be the scheme of the 21st century AUTOMATIC machine ????? Can share your thoughts ???
    3. +8
      2 February 2017 14: 33
      AK-12 to give to the commandos, and AEK-special forces. and all the solution. AEK in production more expensive.
      1. +7
        2 February 2017 14: 54
        Rather, AK-12 or not alone (they may prolong the competition), AEK is good, and there were no official complaints about reliability, however, it is expensive, heavier, it lacks modularity, (it will not work to turn it into a carbine without significant alteration of the gas unit (additional costs)), the plant is not ready for large-scale production, there is also no repair base in the troops ... and other trifles, which makes the AK-12 more preferable (all of the above only in mirror image), but the modernization package for AK -74m ,, reduces almost all of its advantages to nothing, and the rest do not stand the difference in price between the new AK-12 and the service pack to AK-74m ....
        1. +4
          2 February 2017 15: 02
          AK-74. Let's be realistic.
      2. 0
        3 February 2017 12: 37
        Give AK-12 to combined arms officers, and AEK to special forces. and the whole solution.

        And who to "make happy" with the AN-94?
        It seems to be like trying to develop a machine gun with improved accuracy in the mass of the draft army for the poor and inexperienced shooters. And as a result, the AN-94 and AEK - to the "specialists" and the AK-12 (somewhat not AK-74M, but close) - to everyone else.
      3. 0
        4 February 2017 01: 18
        I agree, I am for AEK 971, but this is for the professional army, but the AK-12 is the most for conscripts, although conscripts and AK 74 are just the year of service, what money and equipment should be squandered in vain !!!
  2. +13
    2 February 2017 12: 10
    This year, tests will be completed of two new machines - AEK-971 and AK-12

    Well, let's start with the fact that it is not AEK-971, but A-545 (modification of AEK-971). It differs from the base model, first of all, by the different receiver design (on AEK-971 - a removable cover), which allows mounting on an automatic machine Picatinny rail for the installation of various sights and a fire mode switch on both sides of the machine.


    ... she is the one who takes part in the competition. As for the AK-12, so during the competition it was also finalized ...
    And for me, the A-545 is better. Accuracy of shooting is higher, while reliability and indestructibility are not inferior to Kalashnikov ...
    1. +18
      2 February 2017 12: 25
      Quote: NEXUS
      And for me, the A-545 is better. Accuracy of shooting is higher, while reliability and indestructibility are not inferior to Kalashnikov ...

      It seems that the fundamental factor will be the cost of manufacturing and the possibility of factories lobbying their interests in the Moscow Region and the government.
    2. +21
      2 February 2017 12: 30
      Quote: NEXUS
      And for me, the A-545 is better. Accuracy of shooting is higher, while reliability and indestructibility are not inferior to Kalashnikov ...


      I agree, but nobody canceled lobbyism. Rather, AK will “win”. If the A-545 passes, then it will be correct. AK rests on its laurels for 50 years. Plastic was added and slats, in fact, nothing really changed. For 50 years it was possible to invent fundamentally better weapons, but no, and it’s not clear why. What for? If we already take the AK and there are no competitors))) We must take the A-545 and let the AK plant begin to tear the cores in order to create something fundamentally better. There must be competition. AK is good for the mass and conscripted, less skillful army, for the professional army you need the best, they can take care of the machine and use its advantages to the full. Although a Solomon solution is possible. Contract parts A-545, and conscripts simpler - AK)))
      1. +15
        2 February 2017 12: 54
        Quote: Orel
        AK is good for the mass and conscripted, less skillful army, for the professional army you need the best, they can take care of the machine and use its advantages fully

        So I'm not tired of posting this nonsense. What is so incredible, revealing in the hands of the pros, maybe AEK and not AK?
        1. +7
          2 February 2017 14: 06
          I will support! what's the difference in whose hands the machine will jam, professional or conscript? and everyone has one life. I believe that accuracy will be worse, but reliability should be on top. I will not say anything about AEK, but the AK-74 (or better AKM) suited me - simple, clear, reliable, it hits the target.
      2. +3
        2 February 2017 13: 32
        Quote: Orel
        It is necessary to take the A-545 and let the AK plant begin to tear the cores in order to create something fundamentally better. There must be competition.

        If they don’t accept the Akashny machine gun to be put into service, the plant will not break the veins, it just ... will rebuild the production a bit and make another machine and life will not stop there. For the plant, this will of course mean some economic costs that will result in an increase in the final price of the product (well, a decrease in the production rate), which then will have to be agreed upon and not the fact that it will succeed. It is precisely for this reason that IzhMash is riveting more and more AK-100500, realizing that it will be necessary to lose part of the profit if AEK is adopted.
      3. +2
        2 February 2017 18: 11
        Yes, it’s better to leave it as it is, the ak-12 is the same ak-74 with only a picattini bar. Another cut.
      4. +4
        2 February 2017 21: 14
        To make a fundamentally new machine, you must first come up with a fundamentally new ammunition.
        Something everyone suddenly forgot that, in fact, the usually developed ammunition-weapon system, and the basis of the ammunition.
        Without a new cartridge, we get only the modernization of old systems and nothing fundamentally new.
        There was a series of articles ar vs ak here recently, it was also described there.
    3. avt
      +6
      2 February 2017 12: 50
      Quote: NEXUS
      And for me, the A-545 is better.

      Just
      Quote: NEXUS
      Accuracy of shooting higher

      Quote: NEXUS
      while reliability and indestructibility are not inferior to Kalashnikov ...

      In the presence of additional mechanics, this is not real. Again, “cost - efficiency.” For specialists, and therefore to be a limited batch, it’s realistic, but to massively switch to it No. When it comes to manufacturing quality of the times of the USSR, the AK-12 is preferable. Well, PERSONALLY I am impressed by the A-91M bun and ... Baryshev’s cars. Especially a rifle and a grenade launcher. For my taste, the rifle would have pulled for Marxans with an appropriate and small improvements.
      1. +5
        2 February 2017 12: 57
        Quote: avt
        In the presence of additional mechanics, this is not real. Again, “cost - efficiency.” For specialists, and therefore to be a limited batch, it’s realistic, but to massively switch to it

        And I’ve been writing about this for a long time ... The A-545 will most likely go to special forces, as Nikonov should have gone, and AK to combat units. On the one hand, this is true, since the service life of conscripts is only a year and they are given the basic skills of combat and military service, and this is not even 2 years, as it was before. Accordingly, we need a mass machine that can be mastered quickly and which does not require much maintenance, and will work. And by this, I am sure that the A-545 will go to specialists and contract soldiers, but AK to conscripts.
        1. +4
          2 February 2017 17: 07
          Quote: NEXUS
          On the one hand, this is true, since the service life of conscripts is only a year and they are given the basic skills of combat and military service, and this is not even 2 years, as it was before. Accordingly, we need a mass machine that can be mastered quickly and which does not require much maintenance, and will work.

          I will not argue strongly, but it seems to me that the rapid development of AK is associated not only with its simplicity, but also with its mass character. And mass creates a habit. I don’t know how it is now, but before Kalash was in every school and at the lessons of NVP he was chased up and down. Now it can be purchased, both in the form of modifications of hunting weapons, as well as any weight and dimensional and airsoft toys. I think if the A-545 were just as widespread, its development would not cause difficulties.
          And yet, IMHO, Kalash is like a convenient diaper, from which it gradually grows, and from which it is necessary to get out sometime, no matter how comfortable it was at first.
    4. +9
      2 February 2017 14: 38
      It is believed that the A-545 suffers more from pollution
    5. +2
      2 February 2017 14: 52
      Quote: NEXUS
      As for the AK-12, so during the competition it was also finalized ...

      Here is the result by the way, the devil looks great, his hands itch.
      1. +9
        2 February 2017 16: 32
        Quote: kirieeleyson
        Here is the result by the way, the devil looks great, his hands itch.

        two cans, and in the garage I’ll create such a “miracle” in 10 minutes .... with a body kit ... in 3 hours ...
    6. +9
      2 February 2017 17: 30
      Nexus agrees, this machine must be taken.
  3. +3
    2 February 2017 12: 10
    Yes, the author is right. During the war, there were many samples of weapons delivered to the troops. Everything will test experience.
  4. +4
    2 February 2017 12: 12
    This is no longer funny, it is more like greed and attempts to get a fat contract from the MO .... so that I can cut it later. I don’t believe that you can’t choose a machine for such a time ...
    1. +1
      2 February 2017 12: 32
      Quote: Xroft
      .I don’t believe that you can’t choose a machine for such a time ..

      Time is needed to eliminate identified shortcomings and inconsistencies with requirements, including in terms of price.
      The article writes about this.
      1. +12
        2 February 2017 12: 39
        4 years troubleshoot? Flaws? on the machine? it’s not a 5th generation plane. It’s just a struggle of administrative and financial resources for money .... As the teddy bears shoved the Mi-28s into our army with a third (!!!) combat helicopter, with surging engines, etc. (which is then not one foreign tender did not win) Lobby and kickbacks as usual decide and not the quality of the product.
        1. +7
          2 February 2017 12: 45
          Quote: Xroft
          4 years troubleshoot? Flaws? on the machine? uh

          Mosin rifle 2 years of testing and approval took place.
        2. 0
          2 February 2017 17: 04
          Quote: Xroft
          It’s just a struggle of administrative and financial resources for money ...

          it’s enough to recall how many “lyamas” Kandelaki grabbed for the “brand”.
  5. +21
    2 February 2017 12: 14
    What machine will be the main in the Russian army
    Honestly, this question has already got everyone. I'm afraid AK 74 will remain the main bully
    1. +4
      2 February 2017 12: 28
      wouldn’t soar the brains and put both automata the main
      1. +3
        2 February 2017 16: 34
        Quote: drunkram
        wouldn’t soar the brains and put both automata the main

        I would choose AKM.
      2. +2
        2 February 2017 19: 08
        It will be a big mistake to adopt two models at once; in the USSR there were already three MBTs of the same generation. At the competition, it is necessary to choose the best sample in terms of the combination of performance characteristics and reliability indicators, and the cost and complexity should not be of great importance. But there is one point - the new machine must surpass the AK-74M in efficiency by at least 1,5 times, otherwise rearmament loses its meaning. Once every 50 years, we can afford to replace the entire gunnery. In the army and police, the new machine should completely supplant all AKs of previous models, and AKM and AK-74 should become the reserve weapon in case of 3MV.
  6. +2
    2 February 2017 12: 18
    Why not? The cartridge will still be common!
    1. +3
      2 February 2017 12: 38
      I agree. It was necessary to look for the "average" cartridge between 5,45 and 7,62 and switch to it and to the machine for it.
      1. +3
        2 February 2017 13: 52
        Quote: Izotovp
        I agree. It was necessary to look for the "average" cartridge between 5,45 and 7,62 and switch to it and to the machine for it.


        Definitely a 6,5 mm new cartridge could give an advantage to the new shooting system.
        1. 0
          2 February 2017 19: 17
          The new cartridge should have a recoil momentum at the level of the American 6,8SPC Remington, but have more bullet energy and armor penetration. I consider the ideal 6x49 mm cartridge, designed in the late 80s. Its energy when fired from a barrel of 620 mm exceeds 3300 J at an initial bullet speed of 1150 m / s.
          1. +1
            2 February 2017 21: 42
            6x49 rather rifle. For the machine, it is redundant. In my opinion, which I do not impose on anyone out of respect, the cartridges should be:
            6,5 grendel submachine gun cartridge
            300 winmag-SVD and PC per branch
            338 LM platoon heavy machine gun and sniper pair
            408-heavy company machine gun and a sniper pair.
            1. +1
              2 February 2017 23: 54
              The 6,5 Grendel is a sports cartridge, although it is used by the US Army MTR in Afghanistan. A short cylindrical sleeve of low taper is not the best solution for automatic weapons, and the barrel resource with such a "hot" cartridge obviously leaves much to be desired. The same 6,8SPC is much more suitable for firing weapons with a barrel of 35-50 cm, which led to its wider use of MTR.
              The .300WM and .338LM are too large for a single machine gun and an infantry sniper rifle, although the .338LM is ideal for a sniper saboteur.
              Cartridge .408 CheyTac imprisoned for firing at a range of over 2 km, has a one-piece bullet. It is well suited for snipers, but in mass production a loss in manufacturing quality is inevitable, so it has not been widely used. A .50BMG or our analogue 12,7 x 108 mm, having a wide range of bullets for various purposes, is better suited for a machine gun.
              As for the cartridge 6x49 mm, it is similar in level to the recoil impulse with 7,62x39 mm, although it has energy almost like the good old 7,62x54R. When fired from a machine gun barrel, the speed of the bullet will be about 1000 m / s, which will slightly reduce the momentum. This will be our response to the American 6,8SPC.
              1. 0
                7 February 2017 16: 46
                According to the sleeve grendel agree, ours has a more successful design. It is on its basis that it is necessary to look for a solution with bullets with higher ballistic characteristics in calibers of 6-6,8 mm. And pay attention to the work of Lapua. They have interesting developments in these dimensions and calibers.
            2. 0
              3 February 2017 02: 37
              Rave. There are 4 main rifle cartridges in the company. The existing triple of 5,45, 7,62 and 12,7 are all superfluous.
              1. +1
                3 February 2017 03: 05
                In the West, the situation is similar: 5,56 mm - machine guns and light machine guns, 7,62 mm - single machine guns and sniper rifles, 12,7 mm - heavy machine guns and sniper rifles.
                Cartridges of 5,45x39 mm and 7,62x54R can be completely replaced with a single cartridge of 6x49 mm. The energy of a bullet when fired from a machine gun or rifle barrel is about 3300 J, and at a range of over 1000 meters and further it exceeds the energy of a bullet of a cartridge 7,62x54R. The high ammunition of the bullet, the high speed of its flight, the smaller mass of the cartridge, the excellent armor penetration of armor-piercing bullets, the absence of an edge - these are far from the last reasons to replace obsolete 19th century ammunition.
                The use of this cartridge in the machine is fully justified with the aim of increasing the effective firing range, penetrative and lethal action of the bullet. Through the use of a more effective muzzle brake, recoil buffer, adjustable gas outlet assembly, a thicker barrel and a stiffer receiver, the negative impact of the increased impulse can be substantially compensated. Accuracy of single fire will increase significantly, and bursts of fire will slightly decrease or remain at the same level.
          2. 0
            3 February 2017 02: 35
            I wonder what is the resource of the barrel at a speed of 1150 m / s? 1000 shots?
            1. +1
              3 February 2017 03: 14
              With the same production technology 3-5 thousand, no more. The first AK-74 barrels also had a resource of 5 thousand, but the efforts of technologists managed to bring it to a figure of 15 thousand shots. More than forty years have passed since then, and during this time production technologies have changed, new steel grades, wear-resistant coatings have appeared. The barrel resource can be significantly increased through the use of polygonal rifling and the use of steel, from which the Pecheneg PKP barrels are made (resource 30 thousand).
  7. +2
    2 February 2017 12: 20
    Troop tests will show.
    1. 0
      2 February 2017 13: 07
      already


      [media = [media = https: //www.youtube.com/watch? v = f_Z
      H6cvIgn% 20Q]]
  8. +1
    2 February 2017 12: 27
    But what about the AN-94 Abakan?
    1. +2
      2 February 2017 12: 30
      Quote: drunkram
      But what about the AN-94 Abakan?

      Abakan long ago lost the race ... at the very beginning of the competition.
  9. +4
    2 February 2017 12: 29
    I don `t understand. First, they write about numerous changes in the design of the AK-12 compared to the AK-74, and then they claim that the AK-12 is plus in unification with the previous samples. What is the unification of?
    1. 0
      2 February 2017 13: 06
      Quote: Stroibat stock
      And what is unification of

      In the mechanism of automation.
    2. +2
      2 February 2017 14: 53
      Unification in everything except minor changes to a couple of parts and painting))) The same 74th, with something there "new." )
  10. +3
    2 February 2017 12: 34
    Shooting bursts with a machine gun is generally not effective. From the queue, the unit will fall into the target at all, or nothing at all.
    1. +5
      2 February 2017 12: 41
      Short 3-5 shots effective on AKM and AK-74. Even in the absence of a soldier limiter, it is easy to train to shoot in short bursts.
      1. +3
        2 February 2017 13: 25
        Quote: rotmistr60
        Short 3-5 shots effective on AKM and AK-74. Even in the absence of a soldier limiter, it is easy to train to shoot in short bursts.


        Not 3-5, and 2-3!
        1. +1
          2 February 2017 22: 20
          Speak to yourself 22 ((twenty two) for those who have not served laughing ) and two rounds at the target.
        2. 0
          3 February 2017 03: 44
          For Pulya
          If you notice, then I highlighted 3. And according to the NPSD for the machine, a short queue of 3-5 shots.
      2. +2
        2 February 2017 16: 36
        Quote: rotmistr60
        . Even in the absence of a soldier limiter, it is easy to train to shoot in short bursts.

        at our "Rotny", it turned out at a time .... Yes
    2. +2
      2 February 2017 13: 25
      Shooting bursts with a machine gun is generally not effective.

      Depends on the task. According to the chronicle from Syria, 4 submachine gunners block the machine gunner (or sniper) by firing in the direction (not aimed) while the other group advances to destruction.
      1. 0
        2 February 2017 16: 02
        According to the chronicle from Syria, 4 submachine gunners block the machine gunner (or sniper)


        smile Why four?
        1. +1
          2 February 2017 18: 23
          Why four?

          If only one machine, then the barrel will overheat and goodbye machine.
          The firing point is notched and do not let this firing point shoot until they reach the grenades.
      2. +3
        2 February 2017 16: 37
        Quote: Alex_Tug
        According to the chronicle from Syria, 4 submachine gunners block a machine gunner (or sniper) by firing in a direction (not aimed) while another group advances to destruction.

        shooting in Arabic-overhead from behind a wall entered tactical textbooks ... laughing
  11. +2
    2 February 2017 12: 34
    The surest decision is to supply two machines, and practice will show which is better ... Still in two calibers ...
  12. +3
    2 February 2017 12: 39
    AEK-971 is better!

    AK-12-artificially pushes Rogozin ...
    1. +1
      2 February 2017 12: 56
      Quote: Holoy
      AEK-971 is better!

      What?
      1. +1
        2 February 2017 13: 09
        Everyone, so as not to read the note ...
        1. +1
          2 February 2017 13: 23
          Quote: Holoy
          All

          The idiotic answer ... do not find.? there what is better than AEK AK?
          1. +1
            2 February 2017 13: 26
            Stupid question. It’s easier to hit the target ... this is the task of any weapon above all. AK is out of date ... and for a long time in the years of the 1970s ... nothing new
            1. 0
              2 February 2017 13: 34
              Quote: Holoy
              It’s easier to hit the target.

              Have you personally shot these samples?
      2. 0
        2 February 2017 15: 29
        Quote: dvina71
        Quote: Holoy
        AEK-971 is better!

        What?

        Than AK-12! laughing
      3. +1
        2 February 2017 17: 43
        Quote: dvina71
        Quote: Holoy
        AEK-971 is better!

        What?


        Yes, even if it’s easier to clean, look at how many hidden cavities on the new AK, how to pick out dried up dirt from the field, who will understand the machine in the field.
        1. +2
          2 February 2017 22: 25
          Accurately scrubbing dust from a plastic forend, which is worth it, an ordinary oar, does not affect the accuracy of shooting, but the commander forces it. And here pikachu made planks. An ordinary soldier and a hundredth of these body kits will not see.
  13. +3
    2 February 2017 12: 41
    Quote: Orel
    It is necessary to take the A-545 and let the AK plant begin to tear the cores in order to create something fundamentally better.

    with these managers ?! Yes, not in the heat! in order to change something, you must first disperse the affective managers! there are many examples, and one of them is the Voronezh mechanical and its products! negative
  14. +2
    2 February 2017 12: 42
    any person who begins to do something professionally has different tools. the hammer should be different. the main thing is to understand what and why. Well, with diversity, one must not overdo it. hi
  15. +4
    2 February 2017 12: 47
    Ak-47 (74) with the “new body kits”, will be accepted on the basis of the principle of reliable as no other and the unification of parts with previous generations of the “Kalashnikovs”! And in 7475, he will be in service, they will only add a new color (metallic)))) “Designer Vladimir Zlobin planned to create weapons equally convenient for right-handed and left-handed people, and such that they could literally be controlled “one left” or “one right”. But everything is as always with us. We all want something and always sit with the same thing.
  16. +13
    2 February 2017 12: 54
    Is it really so difficult to find photos of real machines on the network, and not the image in the article?
    AK-12

    A-545
  17. 0
    2 February 2017 13: 02
    The funniest thing is that with one machine, they determined-ADS. And with these two all nothing)))).
  18. 0
    2 February 2017 13: 06
    The same song again. From the tenth year stretches and comes down to Zhvanetsky's monologue: "large, but five, small, but three"
  19. +1
    2 February 2017 13: 22
    And why not try a two-medium machine? Doubling itself may not be necessary for everyone. But he approaches both left-handed people and right-handed people and can be hung up the sights. And more compact.
  20. +5
    2 February 2017 13: 23
    A circuit with balanced automation is NOT APPLIED ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. But it is possible that Russia will again become a trendsetter in the arms world for another 50 years! wassat
    All the same, the weapons school is excellent, no matter what.
  21. 0
    2 February 2017 13: 24
    I haven’t read anything new. These machines have been competing with each other for 3 years now. As far as I know, the AK-12 won, but for economic reasons it was simplified so that there was only one name left from the new machine. As for AEK, its new modifications A-545 and A-762, most likely, will do so in small batches to the Russian Guard and special forces.
  22. +8
    2 February 2017 13: 42
    I see no reason to change the AK-74 for something else that will not be anything special and fundamentally new. It is as if in 1900 they would change the Mosin rifle to a new rifle with the same longitudinally-sliding shutter with manual reloading and a middle magazine for 5 rounds, but with a fuse like that of Anfield or Mauser and a new shutter like Mauserovskaya. The fighting qualities would not have practically changed, but it would have been possible to cut the headstock on new machines and warm your hands on the sale of decommissioned Mosin rifles.
    I believe that nothing revolutionary new has yet been invented, such as sleeveless ammunition, or liquid charges for bullets, or the electronic principle of bullet throwing, etc., it’s not necessary to change the good old AK. All the same, the machines reached the limit of perfection, as at one time muzzle-loading flintlocks, which until the invention of the capsule castle, for two centuries, from 1630 to 1830, practically did not change.
    1. +3
      2 February 2017 15: 41
      IMHO assault rifles did not reach perfection, including with traditional ammunition, but I agree with the main idea of ​​your post! hi
      1. +3
        2 February 2017 16: 46
        Yes, they’ll not come up with anything new that would dramatically increase the efficiency of automatic machines. Well, maybe they’ll insert more plastic, thereby lightening the mass, some new grades of steel will come up, which will also lighten the weight, but no more. For example, since 1830 a series of innovations in small arms has passed, which with each step dramatically increased the effectiveness of weapons. From 1830 capsule locks began to spread instead of flintlocks, which made it possible to shoot almost without misfires and in any weather - even in the rain, even with a strong wind, which was impossible to do with a flintlock. Then, in 1840, they took the Dreyze rifle with a paper unitary cartridge and loading from the treasury for military tests, which made rifles rifled, increased the rate of fire, range and accuracy of fire at times, and made it possible to load the rifle while lying down, which was impossible to do in muzzle charges. A decade later, cartridges with a metal sleeve began to spread, as a result of which the cartridges were no longer afraid of dampness and moisture, were not deformed, and allowed to create multi-shot rifles with magazines. Well, the top of systems with manual reloading was a rifle with a middle Li magazine, which allowed with a single movement of the hand with a pack or clip to load 5-6 rounds of ammunition into the store and when the ammunition was exhausted from the Lee store, the balance of the weapon did not change. Nothing like what happened in the 19th century with small arms, these fashionable trims and body kits will not give. And it makes no sense to change the good and the tested to the unknown, no.
  23. +2
    2 February 2017 13: 42
    What is Alpha armed with?

    HK417? - Perhaps this is the best machine for the army, since he arranges special forces?
  24. +6
    2 February 2017 13: 45
    The most important thing is that this machine is simple: I explain for those who say accuracy and other bells and whistles that this machine will be operated by simple soldiers who have at best 9 education classes or even allow 11 classes (the current 11 education classes do not even reach the 8 Soviet classes ) so cleaning and maintenance is not for them. For those who say the contract army will answer: how this contract army was created, again from those who urgently served, they recruited double basses, moreover, forced them to go to contract soldiers because there was nothing to do in the village except moonshine, the creation of the asshole was underway (Desired The look of the Prospective Army) from 2004 to 2010 (in the army from 1993 of the year I was and saw how a draftee was degrading). Yes, a bear can be taught to ride a bicycle, but what to do with the culture of consumption of technology? This is taught by family and school, and the level of education tends to zero. Ha, I’ll give another example of education and general development: the 3 cadets of the Ryazan airborne assault cannot communicate (combine frequencies on the P123, P173 and r / st series of the P163 crossbow, with radio data issued). Another problem arises from this: earlier they got into military schools after long service in the troops, but now they are boiled in their own juice.
    1. +2
      2 February 2017 15: 00
      Have you served in the army? This is where you saw the conscript with a dirty machine gun?
      1. +2
        2 February 2017 19: 56
        I saw more than once, but at the expense of such expressions, "Have you served in the army?" Our regiment said this: factories and factories work, dogs serve at the border, and we defend our homeland. But the truth does not immediately come to the soldiers that the machine must be cleaned independently, and not wait for the platoon to kick. And in everyday activities it all depends on the foreman and company. but not the least role is played by the consciousness of ordinary and sergeant personnel. I’ve never been a “testing” combatant before, and I didn’t rub my weapon with a white handkerchief in search of flaws, and I know how they prepare for combat shows and clean their weapons at the last moment. And this feature is known to you as old barracks, humidity and "rafiks", not cars, but RAV service officers, when the oil comes with all kinds of garbage and needs to be calcined otherwise the next day the rusty weapon was not cleaned. Well, the last one I don’t know about you, but I commanded a company for three years.
      2. +4
        2 February 2017 20: 39
        Well, the last thing in the 90's and zero years was all the positions from the platoon commander to the battalion commander in the most combat-ready troops (not special forces) and with personnel I know how to work and which individuals come across. Well, if you defended your homeland in Soviet times, then believe that personnel and this one - earth and sky. And you yourself worked with the personnel of soldiers and sergeants? Believe me, in the 90’s we had at least two or three people in each airborne company convicted of civilian airborne forces, you will say nonsense, so you are a techie according to your nickname and you have vague ideas about the personnel. Something like this.
    2. +1
      2 February 2017 16: 39
      Quote: nsws3
      with a culture of consumption of technology

      And all my life I thought that they were exploiting equipment, but it turned out - they were consuming. Likely from here and the insult went - "Well, you and the consumer." negative
      1. +2
        2 February 2017 20: 08
        O great mighty Russian language. There is a person who creates, there is a person who consumes, but I have heard about an exploiter, but it is extremely rare, so I think it is not appropriate to cling to words. The dynamics of the development of the language is such that now the word consumer is much more common than the exploiter, all the more recalling my past, the word exploiter is associated with the colonies of slaves and ancient Rome.
        1. +1
          3 February 2017 09: 10
          Quote: nsws3
          There is a man creating, there is a man consuming

          Yes! But machinery, equipment, devices are operated, used, applied. And do not refer here to
          Quote: nsws3

          The dynamics of language development is as follows.
          Let's then switch to SMS with its T9.
    3. +3
      2 February 2017 17: 56
      Petty Officer nsws3,1, I agree that the current 11 classics do not always sparkle with intelligence, but in any case, the conscript will have at least 9 classes,
      2. Cleaning the machine then education is independent. If everything is purple for the company, then at least call the academician.
      The old man said: in 1941, a rookie from the village was more careful with a rifle than a townsman, even though the townspeople were more developed than the rural
      1. +1
        2 February 2017 20: 18
        About rural I have nothing against it, you probably misunderstood me, I meant consciousness, diligence and discipline. And this is taught by family and school, and in the army they try to at least somehow bring up a bad education (and everything that follows from here) well, if not eliminated, then at least smooth out (lead to a normal battle, and then here some experts on the forum say the guns are being shot, I want to them to notice: the weapon is brought to a normal battle, but this does not apply to the topic just boiling up: I read the comments of some experts).
        1. +1
          3 February 2017 09: 15
          Quote: nsws3
          and then here some experts on the forum say the weapon is being targeted, I want to note to them: the weapon is brought to normal battle

          And this is not "cling to the words." And I want to add that there is a sighting and there is a reduction of weapons to a normal battle. First, you yourself will deal with the terms and what they mean so that it does not boil. Well, or take the "antiscale"
  25. 0
    2 February 2017 13: 48
    I’m sure that they will accept AK - the ratio of price and quality is optimal .., the Russian Guard and other special forces will have AEK. But in general, if you discard all disputes, then both machines are worthy of adoption.
  26. +1
    2 February 2017 14: 13
    Yes, make a decision already, both are clearly better than the AK-74. So any decision is better than none.
    But I would still accept both, for conscripts AK-12, for professionals A-545.
  27. +1
    2 February 2017 14: 58
    But there’s nothing to think about: if the Ak-12 were as good as they want to show it, then it has long been chosen. And since they have been pulling for years with a choice, it is obvious that he does not like the military, but lobbying with a good infusion of funds does its job.
  28. +11
    2 February 2017 15: 02
    I will explain my personal opinion on the topic set by the Article, maybe it will seem erroneous to someone.
    As for me, both of these "experienced" assault rifles did not so much surpass the real capabilities of the AK-74, so that we could seriously talk about accepting one or another model to replace the existing one in the troops. winked
    They look wretched, there are a lot of superfluous and quickly breaking parts, the impression is that they were created for airsoft athletes, and not for warriors — well, with such a hilt-hardened and stubborn “swell” they dig into the ground, chernozem-clay, or walk along a mountain trail tightly to the rock, and freezes in our non-African conditions? request
    There should not be any protruding, clinging and breaking parts on soldier weapons! For example, a folding butt, for the sake of size reduction, a priori has a “non-rigidity” in the hinge (no matter how you play “backlash”), which very much affects the accuracy of fire, especially at medium and long distances, this is the ABC of weapons design. Therefore, it is obvious that such a stock should not be at all - this saves weight, simplifies operation and reduces overall dimensions. And so on all counts ... a cutoff of 2 shots at a rate of fire of 600-650 rounds per minute is the most complete nonsense (if this is nostalgia for the "special forces" AN-94, then on the Nikon machine the system design itself did not allow cutting off more than 2x high-temperature shots, as the third shot went at a completely different pace and completely lost the whole "meaning" of Abakan’s sophistication)!
    The parasitic gear, no matter how you make it, is an extra connection that complicates the design and reduces reliability, which is clear to any novice designer, but not to fans of balanced automation ?! smile
    The pistol for the army was designed by the "famous designer of sports weapons", who had previously "sported" the beautiful Margolin sports pistol to the ugly "Drills", and who, with what "designer baggage", now "designs" machine guns for the army? winked
    But it’s not even a matter of “home-made” ones, which probably have never seen a slow-motion video of ultra-high-speed shooting of the movement of parts of a firing AK with the receiver cover removed and who do not know how to find possible ways to eliminate spied “perturbations” of the shutter frame, suggest new design solutions and layouts to to increase accuracy at times while maintaining the Kalashnikovsky (although I like the “three-handed” Dragunovsky) locking unit, but that “who are the judges?” who develops (?) the concept and requirements for the “automaton of the future”, why from year to year "without a steering wheel and without sails" continue obsessive "sport-designer rehashings" of "old songs about the main thing"? request
    Regards hi
  29. +1
    2 February 2017 15: 12
    A long time ago, this question was clearly and clearly answered: AK combined arms, AEK for special forces.
  30. +4
    2 February 2017 15: 28
    Members of the forum, good afternoon! Please explain to the amateur the absolute need for Picatinny slats? I watched in search, this is fasteners for a bunch of Pribluda. But is it really necessary? Even for pistols, everyone is already lazy to attach this bar.
    1. +3
      2 February 2017 16: 48
      It is like a democracy. Everyone should have it. If there is no democracy, then people will come who will make you democracy laughingbut few will like it. But seriously, it came from the fact that we wanted to unify the fastenings with the NATO ones: before, it was clear that it wasn’t necessary, but now to sell any banana countries it looks even cooler. Coat weapons with trims - a synonym for "upgrade."
  31. 0
    2 February 2017 16: 10
    Both will accept, there is nothing to argue! Cartridges for the same caliber soldier
  32. 0
    2 February 2017 16: 50
    the first machine in the world as well. Fedorova, adopted in 1915, had a caliber of 6,5, then the far-sighted communists in the 70s dropped to the American 5mm caliber, which no longer breaks through the last armor, 762x39 also does not take 4ij and 6A. but now they give us an example of Western caliber 6,5 grendelle and automatic spn NATO under 762x51 hk417 and Mk17 ..
  33. +2
    2 February 2017 17: 01
    Both machines are different from AK-74:
    AK-12 - at a much higher price;
    AEK-971 - a multiple of a higher price, a multiple of a smaller resource and reliability, a quarter more accuracy of automatic firing from uncomfortable positions.

    In general, marriage is at work.
  34. +1
    2 February 2017 17: 15
    Regarding the "new" AK12 from Raspilmash:

    It seems that the weapons factories are not interested in the fact that the troops and Special Forces had a universal cat modular machine gun. in addition to the assault rifle, it could quickly even turn out to be an analogue of an SVD or light machine gun or a weapon for cleaning buildings with a shortened barrel, plus full compatibility with the ammunition of a potential enemy (NATO), which would make it possible to replenish the BC in the occupied territory in the event of a war or special operation. 762 NATO is the most common cartridge in the world. But this would sharply reduce the sales of sniper type SVD of different models and machine guns under 7x54 as well as 7x54 cartridges themselves (it was invented 2 centuries ago).
    It is extremely beneficial for gunsmiths that for each type of task a soldier carries along the barrel. The point is no longer in the technical capabilities of the plant. AK12 at the very beginning promised, including under 762x51 with quick-release trunks of different lengths, it is not.
    If, for example, developers spent 6 years on a fabrik nationale and a wagon of money on a new machine, and as a result they released an old one with a picatinny rail, a new butt and a hanging barrel, then these developers would be given such a delicious kick that 15 minutes would not touch the ground ..
    And in our country it is called "has no analogues in the world."


    According to AEK:
    the compensatory system is good, heavy and expensive, but on calibers greater than 545 it no longer works and many modern BZ 545s no longer even sew the most tungsten. AR500 steel nij4 ave. or our 6A class. On a rifle-caliber assault rifle in order to completely remove the barrel’s toss, it’s enough to put an intelligent DTK like rage.308 and no complicated automation schemes are needed. And it is necessary to nullify the return, that is, all kinds of hydrobuffers on the butt, butt plates, etc.
  35. 0
    2 February 2017 17: 24
    Quote: Skubudu
    The expert does not exclude the possibility that both automatic weapons will be taken into service in total.

    AK-12 does not have significant shooting advantages over AK-74
    A-545 does not have sufficient reliability
    They will not accept the wrong one ... and they’ll do it right
    Until they begin to deviate from the principles - a can, a cracker, a piston, the traditional scheme, a decent machine of the 21st century for the Russian army will not work.

    Suggest another option (if available)
  36. +1
    2 February 2017 17: 33
    Quote: KP8789
    Is it really so difficult to find photos of real machines on the network, and not the image in the article?
    AK-12

    A-545

    Well, to be honest, the A-545 is preferable to the AK-12. and so the same AKM can be drastically changed, but for some reason nobody wants to do this.
    1. avv
      +5
      2 February 2017 18: 02
      Well, you all argue - push the water in the mortar.
      First you need to determine the evaluation criteria.
      1 Yelling - AK is out of date --------- what is out of date ??????? How can a checker, a knife become obsolete ????
      More specifically, what current and future requirements does he not satisfy ????
      2 Where are these NEW 21st century requirements ?????? To the studio, and a comparative list
      inconsistencies.
      3 Ah, AK has poor accuracy when firing bursts. --- And is she needed ???
      In real combat conditions, firing is either EXACTLY single shots,
      or - ON THE SIDE - in bursts.
      .................................
      .................................
      .................................
      1. +1
        2 February 2017 22: 47
        Well, firstly, no one spoke about AK obsolescence. but I personally have some complaints about him, and this is far from being only accuracy. I held a lot of samples in my hands, and also shot, and I’m not writing from the ceiling what I am writing. it’s just right. I can list the advantages of the A-545, and explain on the fingers. Firstly, it is its ergonomics. that is, the flag of the fuse-translator of fire, the second is its diopter sight, in the third there is greater accuracy, less return, especially from uncomfortable positions. I personally, AK does not like two things. this is his translator of fire and the fact that the handle on the shutter is on his right. on AEK it is also on the right, but AEK has its own advantages. and the fact that you write to me here about a single fire or that direction, you just drive the garbage uncle. solo shoot at a distance, but not in maneuverable combat. and wherever it’s the turn ... to empty the store in 5 seconds, I'm sorry. but you are not a warrior. I must be sure that for one hundred and twenty meters the bullets that I will fire in bursts should fit in an 18-inch (40-50 cm) square, and not a meter per meter. otherwise there are no complaints about the Kallashnikov system. but if there is an opportunity to choose between good and best, I choose the best, and not just good. is it clear now ?
  37. +1
    2 February 2017 18: 16
    my preferences are still AEK971, except for the body kit, Kalash has nothing fundamentally new, all the same AK-74 ...
  38. 0
    2 February 2017 21: 08
    Accuracy of firing from AK-74M in short bursts is even better than that of the American M4. Due to the very small impulse of recoil of the 5,45x39 mm cartridge, the creation of an automatic machine with very high accuracy of fire in single and bursts is greatly simplified. The problem is different - the energy of a 5,45 mm bullet is too small to break through high-class body armor, and the weight and price of such vests are constantly falling. The cartridges 7N24 and 7N39 will never become mass due to the high cost and complexity of their production (core made of tungsten carbide), so a new cartridge with a caliber of 6-6,5 mm with a higher initial speed and bullet weight is needed.
  39. +1
    3 February 2017 00: 22
    Gentlemen and everyone else! How disgusting it was to read the comments! Set out anything and anything! Some, like women, oh, what a beautiful little thing he is defined best in all respects! Others, having read the booklets, draw conclusions while I think that I have never shot ak in my life! Gentlemen, enough may be carried on advertising ak. Incidentally, I specifically write the name with a small letter. Let's take a sober look at things! Kalashnikov at the moment is making a frank bastard and instead of changing something in their production, they spend only on advertising and bribes! If anyone is interested, my opinion please answer! Ready for discussion!
    1. +3
      3 February 2017 02: 36
      Totally agree with you. Unfortunately, the development of AK stopped more than forty years ago with the transition to a low-pulse cartridge 5,45x39 mm. The transition to plastic instead of wood, a folding butt, Picatinny rail instead of side mounting optics can not be pulled by a new machine model.
      AK-12 design Zlobin was supposed to appear in the 90s, but it was revealed only 20 years later. To date, the design of the AK-12 is hopelessly outdated conceptually, so I consider the deployment of its release to be irrelevant.
      I consider the AK-12 model of 2016 a diversion and a cut. Is the transfer of the front sight to the gas pipe and the installation of a new forend — that’s all that the engineers of the Kalashnikov concern had enough imagination? If so, then our affairs in the field of development of firearms are pretty bad. Quite interesting specimens like the PL-14 pistol, SVK rifles strongly contrast against the background of AK-12 and PY relics. It seems that the plant was stuck in the mid 70's. An attempt to adopt the fundamentally new AN-94 assault rifle failed miserably due to the intrigues of M.T. Kalashnikov, lack of funds in the treasury for rearmament and some design flaws. The AN-94, with further refinement to increase reliability and improve ergonomics, would become the best assault rifle in the world, but he repeated the fate of another revolutionary model - the SVT.
      It is worth taking a look at some samples of Western machines to instantly see our significant lag in this area. Such samples as the Belgian SCAR, the American Bushmaster ACR, the Israeli Tavor assault rifle are not inferior in reliability to the AK family or are inferior slightly, but their ergonomics, workmanship, and ammunition power are completely superior to our crafts. It is very sad to accept this fact, but such is the harsh reality. I feel that now I will become for some of the "characters" on the site a white-collar, liberal and other bad shit after my harsh criticism of the domestic producer, but I just see obvious things.
      I think and thought earlier that the AK-74 is the best weapon in a big war, but it does not give any right to rest on its laurels. Today, there are about 17 million AKs of all models in warehouses, but our soldiers are still forced to fight as a model of the level of the late 40s. In the 21st century, we are obliged to repeat the success of the 40s by adopting an automatic machine that will eclipse all foreign and domestic developments.
      1. +1
        3 February 2017 09: 31
        Everything is written correctly. The issue of AK rests only on the lack of alternative to its production and to the manufacturer until blue light all the performance characteristics, pros, cons, etc. While ordering, the machines are working. All. But you can already have a conscience once. (For example, give free rein to VAZ manufacturers, they would still tighten export duties on cars one and a half times than now and would continue to rivet basins of 500-600 thousand rubles at their cost price of 150-200). And when again the problems with sales begin to beg the state for money, screaming about "saving the domestic automobile industry", "city-forming enterprise", etc.
        All this talk about the manufacturability of AK in relation to AEK would make sense if we had to talk about multi-million orders, about a sharp shortage of weapons in the troops, about the high probability of the demand for large volumes of riflemen in the very near future. Do you watch anything like that? Do we have German tanks that stand near Moscow?
        Yes, indeed, if you try to predict the development of technologies in this area, you can see that:
        1. The level of protection of individual products is slowly but surely growing: both in the west and in our country there are new types of protection kits that may turn out to be too tough for our 5,45 mm (and who knows there is not far from exoskeletons).
        2. The level of saturation of troops with modern sights (optical, collimator, night) is also growing. This leads to an increase in the average distance of firing from somewhere 250 m to 350-400 m or more. I'm not talking about the presence of all kinds of sniper-Marxman and machine gunners. This increase in range will again weaken somewhat the armor penetration of bullets. And of course the relevance of firing bursts here also falls.
        3. The destruction of “material objects” is becoming more relevant (yes slowly, but nonetheless): robots and drones are gradually entering the army, whether you like it or not. And here, too, armor penetration is in demand. And, if you think about it, then new armor-piercing incendiary and other "complex" types of cartridges will be in demand. In a large caliber, this is easier to implement.

        And it turns out that the caliber will again grow: what is the use of a small recoil momentum and a smaller cartridge weight if the bullet cannot hit the target? If you really think about the future, then in my opinion you certainly need a new cartridge, and only then an automatic machine. But since there are large reserves of 7,62x39 and 5,45x39, the new machine must provide for the replacement of barrels and magazines with old cartridges (such as this very SCAR), albeit with a slight deterioration in performance characteristics (let them learn to master a new barrel in old parts ) Well, the main full-time cartridge needs to be invented IMHO immediately something based on 7,62x51 NATO (7,62x54 R has long been a museum place, and I think that any “intermediate among intermediate” 6,5 mm ones are not worth the development costs) and all the ergonomics sharpen it, so that on occasion it would be possible to charge the captured ones, and there was nothing to compare with (or even it would be easier to tear the technology if we lag behind). That is what modularity and unification are needed, and not in Picatinny strips!

        The appearance of weapons should be determined by military analysts based on their combat use, and not technologists, based on the fact that it is more convenient for them to plan on their machines, which still remember industrialization. With this approach, you can not stutter about new developments at all. You can’t do something qualitatively new - don’t do anything at all, you won’t have to redo it later.
  40. +2
    3 February 2017 04: 48
    Why do you need these machines? One lost to Nikonov, and the second lost to the fact that he lost to Nikonov ?! AEK in the special forces? So there they shoot a single fire. Why then yearn for the excess weight of balanced automation on your shoulders, and even with worse reliability? Well, and those comrades who want to adopt the AK-12 army, you carefully look at the photo of the last sample. AK-12 today is the good old AK-74, with an American stock, a pair of picatinny slats. Do not get fooled by a western divorce.
  41. +2
    3 February 2017 09: 43
    Just kill, I don’t understand why it is important to increase the accuracy of fire with bursts. Let me explain: during the battle there can be neither time nor opportunity for proper aiming, and what is the use of the queue when all the bullets go one by one into milk? Wouldn’t it be easier to rely on the probability to give “over the area”? For example, machine gun ammunition 12,7 specifically reduced accuracy, and this is not "pests and enemies of the people." I think that until a fundamentally new ammunition appears, “Gauss”, or what kind of machine gun with endless ammunition was changed, it’s just because “I’ve got a hundred years in the afternoon and we already want a new one”, at least it’s stupid and not practical. AK is simple, reliable, cheap. Due to this, our mobilization potential is higher than that of anyone else (compare the time required for training a rookie on the M-16), and this is a strategic characteristic, I just don’t want to channel it.
    1. +1
      3 February 2017 10: 21
      For example, machine gun ammunition 12,7 specifically reduced accuracy, and this is not "pests and enemies of the people."

      This is evident because earlier they purely flew out of the barrel of machine guns with a wild rate of fire, creating a sort of “cloud”. In a short-lived aviation battle, this is justified by the additional consumption of ammunition in the hope that at least something, if it arrives, does not scare anyone (I am silent about the "economic component"). And if you shoot the same crap from a large-caliber sniper? And it’s not appropriate here, I think to say “specially reduced”: they did not reduce, but simply left large tolerances on the size of bullets during production (well, the equipment does not allow achieving more), so they fly apart later. The quality of the cartridges we now unfortunately also leaves much to be desired ...
      Yes, in the army, machine gunners fire "to suppress", but then - machine gunners. They have a long ribbon. And the shooter has a horn, he needs to quickly aim and hit precisely so that they do not aim and hit him. Here the cartridge-weapon complex should provide some definite probability of defeat both in accuracy and in breaking through the defense.
  42. +2
    3 February 2017 10: 02
    Quote: Gun70
    Members of the forum, good afternoon! Please explain to the amateur the absolute need for Picatinny slats? I watched in search, this is fasteners for a bunch of Pribluda. But is it really necessary? Even for pistols, everyone is already lazy to attach this bar.

    "3.14 dorasy, sir" (c), just the redneck has such a chip - fashion.
  43. 0
    3 February 2017 11: 42
    "It’s impossible to harness a horse and a trembling doe in one cart"
    Tired, of course, of these disputes - which machine to choose. Apparently, the time has come in the Russian army when it is necessary to adopt two concepts of the machine gun, and this is due primarily to the composition of the army. A conscript with his year of service, AEK-971 (or rather A-545), does not need a hundred years, he will kill him in the first six months of his service - he must be looked after more carefully, he does not have Kalashnikov’s gaps and balanced details, he didn’t overlook it and he’ll wedge it. AK perfectly suits him - albeit not so accurate, but reliable.
    For an experienced contractor, AK is an anachronism, a "partisan automatic", A-545 - for him. He will competently serve it, and competently apply it. With a change in the composition of the army, their ratio will also change.
    There was an entertaining program on the Weapon channel - several well-known assault rifles were compared, including the AK and M-16, in firing single, short bursts and bursts into the “half store” at a distance of 300 m, in my opinion. So a significant difference was found only when shooting in short bursts.
  44. +1
    3 February 2017 20: 50
    Both machines are on the verge of obsolescence. Therefore, for the army you need to take one that is simpler, cheaper, and weighs less. No matter what kind of machine gun they put into service, five years later they still have to rearm. AK-12 is quite suitable.
    1. 0
      4 February 2017 09: 31
      And if right now you don’t accept something almost outdated, then tomorrow we will be captured by the Western hordes of State Department hangers-on? The trouble is that the manufacturer will ask for this “almost outdated” one as a weapon that at least raises the infantry potential to the “new level” of TM, “has no analogues” of TM, but essentially differs little from rework kits for M-16, which in America, almost in the garage riveted and sold for a penny. It’s like 10 years after the “dozens” to make “Prior” and ask for it as for “Mercedes”.
    2. 0
      4 February 2017 12: 02
      But do you deign to say that the AK is out of date? And what does it consist of? And the question is simply backfill - have you seen AK live and on what principle is its automation based? :)))
  45. 0
    4 February 2017 11: 59
    by the end of the tests, from AK12 we get a simple and reliable AK74M :))) AK12 was originally made by managers, not designers - that’s the result. Managers thought that the quality of the machine depends on the number of planks hung - it turned out, it does not! :)))
  46. 0
    5 February 2017 01: 54
    Why left pictures in the article?
  47. 0
    6 February 2017 06: 26
    But in my opinion, AK - junk and AEK - are not less than junk of the times of developed deficit. I am on the side of the A-91M, whose accuracy is quite at odds with reliability. Yes, and he is beautiful.