Professor Klesov: “Russian roots have been found. Nightingales of the Information Russophobic War Confounded

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Professor Klesov: “Russian roots have been found. Nightingales of the Information Russophobic War ConfoundedA number of articles by Professor Anatoly Klyosov on DNA genealogy, have caused a wide resonance among our audience. From the readers came a real squall of responses and questions. We contacted the professor, and he gave us an exclusive interview explaining the details of his research.

- What is the achievement of DNA genealogy in the field of study stories do you consider the most important Russian people today?

- A lot of copies are broken around who the Rus are and where they came from. Many thought out interpretations in which the lack of facts is “compensated” by violent fantasy.

DNA genealogy received an exact answer to this question. “Accurate” here is one that is as consistent as possible with objective scientific data. So, let me remind you that the culture of corded stoneware and the Fatyanovo culture are of key importance for the history of the Russian Plain. The first was born about 5200 years ago, and ended 4500 years ago. It was she who moved to the Fatyanovo culture, stretching from Belarus to the territory of present-day Tatarstan and Chuvashia.

So, the Fatyanovites were never called Rusas just because, according to the concepts of many historians, Slavs cannot be ancient. Allegedly, the Slavs and Russians have practically no roots. In other words, by default it is assumed that the Slavs in general had no ancient ancestors, and in particular there were no Russians, nor were there any.

You can still find some information in the literature about the ants and the Clavens, but there is nothing about who the Fatyanians were. Like, it is not clear who they are. However, DNA analysis showed that Fatyanovtsy belong to the haplogroup R1a, and half of the modern ethnic Russians also belong to R1a.

Moreover, the corpse position of the Fatyanov burials was typical of people belonging to the R1a haplogroup. In other words, the Fatyanovtsy are the direct ancestors of half of the modern ethnic Russians who have the same R1a haplogroup (the remaining half have the haplogroup I2a, N1c1, and the minor in the number of haplogroup or genus).

Now the question is: why are people of the Fatyanovo culture not called ancient Rus? Yes, only because the important heads of historical institutions did not give their approval on the term. The names are entered by people vested with authority, and that is the answer to the question. And, firstly, they do not know that the Fatyanovtsy are the direct ancestors of half of the modern Russians, and secondly, they don’t want to change anything, because the liberals will immediately call them “nationalists”, which is worse for academic historians than war Goodbye, foreign grants, who have.

Nevertheless, DNA tests unequivocally show a direct connection between ethnic Russians and Fatyanovs, and this, I believe, is one of the recent most important achievements of DNA genealogy.

- There are a lot of speculations about the supposedly Finno-Ugric origin of the Russian people. What does DNA genealogy say about this?

- Of course, I came across such reasoning more than once and consider them as part of the information war. From the same category as the notorious Norman. Normanism and Finno-Ugrism are twins. Moreover, the tone was taken as if the Finno-Ugrians were something bad.

Especially in recent times Ukrainian history falsifiers and their illiterate allies "from the crowd" have been distinguished. The best thing they thought of was that the Russians were a mixture of Finno-Ugrians and Mongols. First of all, this is racism, which I do not accept, all nations, of course, are equal, there are no nations higher or lower than others.

Secondly, DNA tests determined that the haplogroup N1c1, which is incorrectly called "Finno-Ugric", is in modern ethnic Russians on average 14%, but this is on average. If we move from Pskov and to the north, this number increases, and in the White Sea region it reaches approximately 40%.

If you go to the south of Russia, then in the Kursk, Belgorod, Oryol regions their number decreases to 5%, and becomes less than, say, in Ukraine. And the reason is clear - a simple geographical factor. The further south from the Baltic, the lower the content of the haplogroup N1c1. In the Balkans, for example, there is none at all. And Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians have an equal content of haplogroups R1a and N1c1 - by 40% each, the rest is minor in number of impurities, as a rule - “visitors” over the last couple of millennia.

Thirdly, the Lithuanians and Latvians, as well as the carriers of the N1c1 haplogroup among ethnic Russians, what kind of “Finno-Ugrians” are they? “Finno-Ugric peoples” are, according to the well-known scientific definition, carriers of Finno-Ugric languages. And in Lithuania, Latvia, Pskov and Kursk do not speak Finno-Ugric languages. Therefore, the question is not that being Finno-Ugric is something shameful or reprehensible, but that it is wrong.

Fourthly, the haplogroup N1c1 appeared in the Baltic States and on the territory of the Russian Plain about 2500 years ago, in the middle of the 1st millennium BC, and it appeared first in the southern Baltic, and its speakers, apparently, already spoke in languages ​​of the Indo-European family, as carriers of the haplogroup R1a, and then on the territory of modern Finland, about 1500-2000 years ago.

By that time, Fatyanovo culture had already existed on the territory of the Russian Plain. There lived people belonging to the haplogroup R1a. The most interesting thing is that when I look for the roots of the myth about the Finno-Ugric origin of Russians, I see that the thesis was originally formulated only as a hypothesis. That was just a guess, you know? There were no grounds for that hypothesis, they were invented by interpreting indirect data. And they simply invented it when there was no data.

When a hypothesis is presented as an indisputable fact, then we are faced with an ideological approach. And its goal is transparent: to introduce the conviction among Russians that they live in a foreign land. The Slavs here are supposedly newcomers, and the territory does not rightfully belong to them.

Similarly, in my opinion, the Norman theory is being built. They say that the Russian state was founded by alien people, by some “Scandinavians” who laid everything - crafts, diplomacy, and military affairs. And they were apparently invisible in Russia, some Normanists say that tens of thousands, others — hundreds of thousands.

One bad luck - somewhere their descendants on the Russian plain got lost. Even if their 1000-1200 years ago were just 100-200 people, now there would be a lot of their descendants here. And they are not. After a long search for the descendants of the "Scandinavians" in Russia, four people found it difficult, who have no idea that there is a "Scandinavian" label in their DNA. Ancestors know their grandfather. No one was found in Ukraine, not one in Belarus, not one in Lithuania.

In the DNA genealogy, the “Scandinavian” label is called Z284. It is, of course, full in Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and still know where? On the British Isles - in England, Ireland, Scotland, where, according to historical information, the Vikings went. And it turns out that they went only to the west, to the east they did not go.

There were no “Normans” in Russia, except as inmates in the Oreshek fortress, but with the troops of Charles XII with a known success. Descendants here they did not have time to acquire. It turns out that the "Scandinavian" swords Slavs brought from military campaigns, as trophies, and even did themselves. The same and the building of "Scandinavian construction." Look in the area of ​​Ladoga "Scandinavian chromosomes", you will not find. There are none, and never have been. So the “Norman theory” crumbles like a house of cards.

- It is often stated that the very name of the capital of Russia is of Finno-Ugric origin, and this is considered to be one of the evidence of the Finno-Ugric origin of the entire Russian people.

- Yes, indeed, they say that the word “Moscow” is supposedly translated from Finno-Ugric. Others, however, argue that the Turkic. Third - that it is from the Arabic word "mosk", which means "mosque" (from the Arabic مسجد [ˈmæsdʒɪd] - "place of worship").

But in fact, there are at least two dozen versions of the origin of this word, to the extent that in Latin there is the word "Mosqa" (male union, brotherhood, monastery). However, all versions are “forgotten”, they put forward only one possible interpretation, and they even submit it not as an assumption, but as an allegedly “proven” fact. This is the lack of a scientific approach - to pedal only one version, which is thrown, while others seem not to be.

In general, I see how they climb out of their skin, trying to “prove” that the Russians did not originally live on the Russian Plain. They speak about the Swedes, about the Finno-Ugrians, about the ancient Germans - if only they would not be Russians. Fortunately, now there is a mathematically exact tool (DNA genealogy) that puts an unequivocal cross on all these fabrications.

DNA genealogy is good in that it is an exact science that does not allow a multitude of ideological reinterpretations. We do not deal with the consonance of some old names, do not take two broken pots and, on the subjective similarity of their appearance, do not make far-reaching conclusions, and do not take it on faith who, for whatever reason, said that in antiquity, Herodotus or Homer.

We accept only facts, direct evidence. We are for honest science, not for the one that is based on “opinions”, and opinions revolve in any desired direction, depending on external or internal order.

- Consider another famous culture, which stretched from the southern Urals to the Dniester. This Pitcher culture, with dating 4600-5300 years ago

- In the academic literature it is stated the thesis that representatives of the Pittora culture created the Afanasyevskaya culture of Altai. This conclusion was made on the basis of just the external similarity of the material characteristics of the two cultures.

However, a natural question arises: on what basis is it concluded that Afanasyans brought culture to the south of Siberia, and not vice versa? And they, they say, have a lot like, Yamna and Afanasyevskaya. Remarkable, but why similarity is interpreted only in one direction? And because it has already been expressed long ago, and it has become “bronzed.” So, this is also not a science.

DNA genealogy can clearly show not only the connection of cultures, but also the direction of migration of peoples. Now, with the help of DNA tests, it has been proven that people from Southern Siberia, including the ancestors of the Yamniki, were moving west. The roots of Pit-culture turned out to be in the Afanasyev culture, and not vice versa. And from Yamnaya culture, those ancient people (haplogroup R1b) went south through the Caucasus to Mesopotamia, and not to the west, ostensibly to Europe, as historians with archaeologists have considered for half a century.

There is no DNA of “pits” in Europe, but they are numerous in descendants - in the Caucasus and Turkey, and further, bypassing the Mediterranean Sea - on the Iberian Peninsula. And from there - the rapid settlement of continental Europe 4800-4400 years ago, and then more slowly and thoroughly - until 3000 years ago, before the beginning of the 1st millennium BC.

For historians, this turned out to be a solution to the ancient riddle - where did the culture of bell-shaped cups go from? And she went to continental Europe from the Iberian Peninsula, starting 4800 years ago. There are many mysteries along the way, including the languages ​​spoken by the invaders of Europe, why and how Old Europe died, who the Celts are and where they came from, and much more.

- Your opponents constantly emphasize that you are not a geneticist, but a chemist, and therefore you are not a professional in the field you have taken. Even the most ardent opponents do not question your achievements in world chemistry. But this is not genetics, will you agree?

- There is an elementary substitution of the thesis. DNA genealogy and genetics are different things, different scientific disciplines. I never said that I was a geneticist, I never claimed that I was engaged in genetic research. I'm actually not a neurosurgeon, and not a sword absorber, but where is the DNA genealogy? That's also with genetics.

DNA genealogy stands on the shoulders of geneticists, more precisely, on one shoulder. The other shoulder is physical chemistry. The third shoulder, if such were - these are historical sciences. And I am an expert in physical chemistry, what genetics do not understand. Therefore, genetics could not create a DNA genealogy. And I could not create genetics, for which I do not pretend.

If it is half in joke, then DNA genealogy is the use of chemical methods for processing data obtained by geneticists. See the difference or not?

Simply put, what is DNA? This is deoxyribonucleic acid. Acid, do you understand? Well, now let someone say that chemists do not deal with acids and this is not their field of professional activity. Kuram to laugh!

If it is serious, the most important part of DNA genealogy is the transformation of the picture of mutations, developed in time, into chronological indicators. In other words, in times that have passed from certain historical events and phenomena, such as ancient migrations, the formation of ancient archaeological cultures, the transition of migrants to other regions and other continents, issues of human evolution - in the same place, too, evolution took place in time.

Here, the speed of mutations in the Y chromosome, more precisely, in different parts of the chromosome, plays an enormous role, and for this it is necessary to know the equations of reaction rates, the methodology of specialized calculations.

This is not genetics, and has nothing to do with genetics. This is DNA genealogy. And genetics and in physical chemistry, and in the history understand a little. Not their methodology. That DNA genealogy and went to the junction of sciences. This is now called the "multidisciplinary approach." This is about us.

-Thanks for the detailed answers. There are still a lot of questions left, and we will definitely turn to you again, if you don't mind.

- Of course, please.

To be continued
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  1. +126
    July 30 2016
    Quite distinct and clear answers from this professor.
    Just the facts.
    A purely scientific approach.

    And then they zadolbali in the media with their "theories" about the origin of Russians.

    Recently, the channel "History" showed an English "documentary" called "Vikings". So the authors in all seriousness broadcast that the cities of Staraya Ladoga, Veliky Novgorod, Moscow, Kiev, etc. founded by the Vikings.
    Well, is not it nonsense?
    Fantasy!

    Substitution of concepts today is a very fashionable activity.
    And not only in DNA genealogy.
    Very dangerous occupation!
    A false story can lead to such a state of things as it is now in Ukraine.

    And to the professor - success in work!
    1. +17
      July 30 2016
      the fact that the Scythians and Sarmatians who lived on our territory are not Russian, the pope of history Herodot also said about this. And so the Scythians-non-Russians lived, lived and disappeared somewhere, but the Russians were not there once and came from somewhere. And I'm not joking, that's exactly what traditional historical science says.
      As for the Norman theory, this is a fake, Fomenko and Nosovsky spoke about this in their work "Study of the Radziwill Chronicle". In this work, two of the most important sheets about the Varangian vocation to Russia and about the timing of the modern chronology are replaced. The conclusion is unambiguous - a fake in order to replace history for us.
      http://chronologia.org/seven4_1/0104.html
    2. +9
      July 30 2016
      Quote: aviamed90
      And to the professor - success in work!

      I am joining. The West with its theories of the Vikings, the tartar of us sculpts. First we are conquerors, then robbers, then barbarians.
      We are Russians with our own history. And it’s very good that there are decent people for whom the truth is more important than receiving grants.
      1. 0
        August 2 2016
        Yes, a dog with that west, here its halfwits are stored up for 100 years.
    3. -5
      July 30 2016
      The Russians were formed as an alliance of five tribes - two Slavic with haplogroup R1a (Ilmen Slovenes and Krivichi) and three Ugro-Finnish (chud, all and merya) with haplogroup N1c1. Then the expansion of this alliance went south, including other Slavic tribes and Slavs became much larger. Therefore, many put an equal sign between the Slavs and the Russians, although this is not entirely true. Later, the differences between the tribes erased in the process of creating the state and all became not Krivichi, a miracle, etc., but Russian. At this time, many sources clearly shared that there are Russians, and there are Slavs. As the Slavic lands joined, more and more tribes became Russian. The very word Rus in all respects is Finno-Finnish and no one seems to argue with this. For Rurik and his descendants, DNA studies of living representatives of Rurikovich, which are many more, were conducted in two places. As far as I remember, a small part of the descendants had the haplogroup R1a, and the majority of N1c1. In my opinion, the most probable hypothesis is that Rurik was from some Finno-Ugric tribe living on the Baltic coast and doing the same thing as his Norman neighbors - that is, raids. The Vikings became not only the Normans, as they were not alone in Scandinavia. It is possible that it was a Baltic tribe, and possibly the Finno-Ugric tribe living in Sweden. The simplest hypothesis is that when forming an alliance of tribes, so that it was an equal alliance, and not joining any other tribe, an external comrade from another Ugro-Finnish tribe with a strong squad was called to rule. On the one hand, we get a noticeable trace of Norman culture, for this squad clearly lived with the Normans and its way of life was the same, and on the other, the minimal trace of the Norman haplogroup, because by the blood these combatants were mainly Finno-Finns. My IMHO is so far, I have not met with any serious rebuttals. hi
      1. +6
        July 30 2016
        Quote: g1v2
        The very word Rus in all respects is Finno-Finnish and no one seems to argue with this. P

        why don't they argue? When they just argue. What evidence do you have that Russia is not our word?
        About this, there is a lot of Finnish in the Russian genome. Klesov says 15%, but there are almost no Finnish toponyms on Russian soil, only in Karelia there is something and then not much more, there is more Russian.
        Quote: g1v2
        Tch in my opinion

        what is that?
        Quote: g1v2
        In my opinion, the most probable hypothesis is that Rurik was from some Finno-Ugric tribe living on the Baltic coast and doing the same thing as his Norman neighbors - that is, raids.

        your assumption is ridiculous, because even TI says that the Finnish tribes were absolutely not aggressive and there were no military actions in their history, there was no need to drive them ...
        1. 0
          July 30 2016
          Not your word, but who are you? Since I believe that the Russians were formed as a union of Slavic and Finno-Ugric tribes, it is ours that is more truly the part that is Finno-Ugric. About 15 percent, so read carefully. The north, the higher the percentage of the Finnish-Finnish haplogroup, reaching 40 percent in the Arkhangelsk region. The south, the more Slavic haplogroups and less Finno-Finnish.
          Yes, and it seems you need to conduct a small educational program. Finns are only one of the Finno-Finnish tribal formations. Ugro-Finnish tribes include a bunch of tribes from the Baltic to Chukotka - almost the entire north of the Russian Federation. Plus part of the Urals and Volga. As for peaceful tribes, so whether you are peaceful or warlike depends on your environment. Well, read about the same Chukchi, for example, and how they terrified the neighbors and how we fought with them. That's it, the educational program is over.
          Py s s, tch - it is abbreviated so. hi
          1. +3
            July 30 2016
            Quote: g1v2
            Not your word, but who are you?


            What do you think, I’ll ask you a word here? Who are you? why do you need to know?
            Quote: g1v2
            The north, the higher the percentage of the Finnish-Finnish haplogroup, reaching 40 percent in the Arkhangelsk region. The south, the more Slavic haplogroups and less Finno-Finnish.


            Well, Duc and the Kyrgyz 40% p1a1 and the Indians, too, and what does this mean? That the father was one and the mothers are different, therefore the peoples are not alike. That’s why, in addition to DNA analysis, we must also consider evidence of the birthright on earth, I already told you that the main evidence besides DNA is the TOPONYM of the area, so even in Mari or even in Karelia there are much more Russian names than Finnish ones, which means that it is Russian lands.
            1. +5
              July 30 2016
              Indians have a large percentage of R1A1 only among the higher castes. Brahmins and warriors. All lower castes are not carriers of R1A1. And the higher castes are on the strength of 5% of the total population of India. Read Kolesov on the resettlement of peoples. somewhere around 4000 years ago, the Aryans moved from the north to India.

              And further. Very interesting fact. The direct descendants of the Prophet Mohamed in Saudi Arabia have the halogen group R1A1.
            2. 0
              July 30 2016
              Who are you? Why do you need to know this? ... Spy, or what? American.
            3. 0
              August 5 2016
              And you look at these same names before the 20th century and you will be surprised that almost all were Finno-Ugric, and even now Russian, in your opinion, is a spoiled Mordovian or literal translation into Russian, at least in our North-West! Yes, and in the bath we soar with a broom, unlike the Slavs.
          2. +1
            July 30 2016
            Quote: g1v2
            Finns are only one of the Finno-Finnish tribal formations. Ugro-Finnish tribes include a bunch of tribes from the Baltic to Chukotka - almost the entire north of the Russian Federation

            Why are the Chukchi Finns too?
          3. 0
            July 30 2016
            Quote: g1v2
            Plus part of the Urals and Volga region

            With what joy the Volga region, the Urals, what did the Fino Ugrians forget there? Are people from the central regions of the Russian state moving to these places?
            Have you forgotten the Kazan Tatars, definitely not the Finno-Ugrians,
            1. +6
              July 31 2016
              Mordovians and Maris are Finno-Ugric peoples. Googled a bit.
            2. +1
              August 5 2016
              Yes, and the Urals and especially the Volga! This is all we Mordva :)))
        2. 0
          August 5 2016
          Especially chud was kind and fluffy, so much so that the whole coast of Sweden in the Gulf of Bothnia still hiccups!
      2. +4
        July 30 2016
        If part of Rurik's descendants have haplogroup R1a, and part N1C1, then some of these parts are not descendants of this person))). And, if we recall the history, then the main part of the surviving descendants of Rurik are the descendants of Yaroslav the Wise, who was married to a Swedish princess who, I think, arrived with her retinue in Kiev. In light of this, it would be worth considering that some of the children born in this marriage could have been children of the Swedish "favorite" of the princess, not Yaroslav. The great sovereign is not always protected from horns. So much for the appearance of descendants with N1c1. This is not only science, but life with all its gags.
        And regarding "Normanism" - the article directly states - there are no traces of Norman peoples in the east and south of the Baltic. This becomes clear if we recall the Bodric Union in the south of the Baltic at that time and the Ruyans, as the most powerful tribe of the Slavs, according to the same Germanic chroniclers of that time. And the Warg tribe is a Slavic tribe that lived on the border with Denmark.
      3. +3
        July 30 2016
        By the way, according to the word Rus: I can’t say, but I read that it is a word of Sarmatian origin, and the Sarmatians seem to have actively participated in West Slavic ethnogenesis, perhaps not only Western ones. And that means a word ray. And in the villages in the North-West Russia is called places that are flooded with sunlight in the afternoon.
      4. 0
        July 30 2016
        Watch Zadornov’s documentaries about Rurik, everything is on documents from archives. Ruriks were not Normans; they were Slavs.
      5. +1
        July 30 2016
        Again this is "Finno-ugliness". It's time to tie up with this muddy term. Maybe someone knows WHO of the "scientists" was the first to use the term "rhino-hippopotamus"? The author for the judgment of the people! And DNA research has really become a serious help. The fact that R1a and N1c1 are the genetic basis of the modern Russian superethnos is already a known fact. By the way, this is in good agreement with the Vedic legends about 4 (!) Genera, united into 2 main groups. According to one of the interpretations, these are Rasens + Svyatorus and D'arians + H'arians. Laughter laughter, terms are terms, but 2 main ones are left there! But what kind of "Finno-ugliness" is not clear. Why not "Finno-Slavic"? Or how? In my opinion, there is not even a question, who is closer and dearer for the same Komi: Russians or Mansi? There is not only a "pagan" (sorry for the abusive term, but in short) heritage of similarity. Visual comparison is enough.
      6. The comment was deleted.
      7. -7
        July 31 2016
        Rurik Ioann is the grandson of Khan Gostomysl, a native of their Novgorod, who ruled in front of the Comnins in the city of Troy in the Empire’s capital .. The name of Gostomysl is carved on the stone of the kings in Bulgaria ..
        Rurik - (Khan Eney Rurik Varangian Trojan)
        Rurik Varangian-invited from another place of residence ..
      8. -1
        August 2 2016
        Those who instructed you probably didn’t even read Tatishchev. Not fashionable. Today, Fomenki, Starikov and others. And forgot about Tatishchev and Karamzin, as there were none.
      9. 0
        August 5 2016
        I absolutely agree with you. Especially if you study the history of Finland. In Finnish, the Russians are called Swedes. Ethnographically (clothing, rituals, cuisine), the Great Russians are Finno-Ugric and all who deny this deny the evidence. For example, Friday in Finnish is the day of Perun. And until the 19th century there was no resettlement of the Slavs. Well, then it started. And do not rush with Slavophilism, as if the Slavs were the highest Arians.
    4. +4
      July 30 2016
      Please note that the "extra chromosome" so beloved by the Svidomites "label" (I know that Down's syndrome) was not found. Zrada!
    5. +2
      July 30 2016
      Quote: aviamed90
      on the channel "History" they showed an English "documentary" called "Vikings".

      The most "funny" thing is that the translation is literal, for example, in a film about the capture of Berlin, the actor who voiced said that "hordes" of Soviet troops attacked the Fritzes. I wonder if he has any thoughts in his head or he has it to make a sound ?
      1. 0
        July 31 2016
        I also like the heading "ENGLISH SCIENTISTS PROVED")))
    6. +3
      July 30 2016
      Recently, the channel "History" showed an English "documentary" called "Vikings". So the authors in all seriousness broadcast that the cities of Staraya Ladoga, Veliky Novgorod, Moscow, Kiev, etc. founded by the Vikings.

      Oh, this is not just nonsense - a targeted attack. Ahead is the ancient Viking Lev Samuilovich Klein, professor, dean, archaeologist and others, other, though he is an expert .. in the Bronze Age. Excavations in Staraya Ladoga are carried out by Kirpichnikov of the same Viking.
      The Norman cause is immortal.
      Only two (!) Historians object to them L.P. Grotto and Fomin V.
      Doctor of History Fomina V. has a book "The Naked King. Normanism as a Diagnosis" and an article entitled "Klein as a Diagnosis".
      Grot L.P. "The calling of the Varangians, or the Normans, who were not."
      Lomonosov is not on them.
      1. 0
        August 3 2016
        Quote: Turkir
        Recently, the channel "History" showed an English "documentary" called "Vikings". So the authors in all seriousness broadcast that the cities of Staraya Ladoga, Veliky Novgorod, Moscow, Kiev, etc. founded by the Vikings.

        Oh, this is not just nonsense - a targeted attack. Ahead is the ancient Viking Lev Samuilovich Klein, professor, dean, archaeologist and others, other, though he is an expert .. in the Bronze Age. Excavations in Staraya Ladoga are carried out by Kirpichnikov of the same Viking.
        The Norman cause is immortal.
        Only two (!) Historians object to them L.P. Grotto and Fomin V.
        Doctor of History Fomina V. has a book "The Naked King. Normanism as a Diagnosis" and an article entitled "Klein as a Diagnosis".
        Grot L.P. "The calling of the Varangians, or the Normans, who were not."
        Lomonosov is not on them.


    7. +2
      July 31 2016
      Let's just say, I’ll put in five cents 4- firstly - the professor did not say anything fundamentally new! Do not rush to minus - now I will explain why - firstly the ancestors of Russians as an ethnos were long known for some time - since the advent of large-scale ethnogenetic studies - I was read in lectures by the distinguished professor Zakharov (long for him and health) - and that was for a minute in 2009, and then this data was no longer new.
      The fact is that, unfortunately, with the media (as Professor Klesov points out very correctly), some strange theories are given, which are either outdated like a dinosaur, or unambiguously pseudoscientific (for something like "sensational").
      As for the notorious Normanism, the fact that in Russia there were no Vikings in such numbers that they left their haplogroups with us - this was always clear. Normanism is purely a theory of the origin of Comrade Rurik (perhaps his closest associates).
      The historian Klim Zhukov told about this very well in Dmitry Puchkov's program "reconnaissance" - look on YouTube - reconnaissance - Klim Zhukov about the origin of the Slavs - there are two programs like, though Zhukov speaks exclusively from an archaeological point of view and does not go into genetics - and says that they say they do not understand this area. So an important task is to bring archaeologists, historians and geneticists together - let them sit and bring all their facts into one to clarify the general picture.
      But Klesov, in any case, well done - raises and most importantly popularizes an important topic - many scientists sin by refuting the old inaccurate and speculative concepts or discovering something new, leaving their discoveries in the framework of purely scientific literature. While neglecting the popularization of their discoveries, or leaving it to illiterate reporters who all turn over.
      Although Koesov has his own shortcomings - so he completely rejects population genetics (created by the outstanding Russian scientist S.S. Chetverikov), arguing that his DNA genealogy is more accurate (and the mathematical apparatus of popgenetics is incorrect), albeit in his DNA genealogy there are many "holes" (mostly of a purely mathematical nature) that population genetics explains perfectly.
      That is, objectively, for maximum accuracy, a synthesis of these two flows is needed.
      1. +1
        July 31 2016
        Although Koesov has his drawbacks, he rejects completely population genetics.


        DNA genealogy is not population genetics at all.
        DNA genealogy works with ungenic parts of the chromosome.
        Pop genetics works with genes, i.e. what encodes proteins.
        A mutation in the gene leads to a defective protein and death of the body.
        The mutation in the non-gene area is preserved and inherited through millennia.
        These two disciplines have different objects of study and methods.
        Pop.genetics cannot yet understand this, hence the misunderstanding of the mathematical methods of DNA genealogy.
        1. +1
          August 1 2016
          Quote: Rt-12
          DNA genealogy works with non-gene regions of the chromosome.

          I will open "America" ​​to you - with them and population genetics in its modern form, wow, how it works!
          Quote: Rt-12
          A mutation in the gene leads to a defective protein and death of the body.

          Not always.
          Quote: Rt-12
          The mutation in the non-gene area is preserved and inherited through millennia.

          Mutations in genes can also do and do so - otherwise, how do we have new manifestations of recognitions that we did not have before?
          Quote: Rt-12
          These two disciplines have different objects of study and methods.

          In essence, one and the same thing, the "DNA genealogy" is even already getting the area than modern popgenctics.
          Quote: Rt-12
          Pop.genetics cannot yet understand this, hence the misunderstanding of the mathematical methods of DNA genealogy.

          Popgenetics is exactly what everyone understands, because popgenetics describes the behavior of ANY mutation in a population for many generations, and popgenetics develop mathematical methods. allowing to estimate the frequency of mutations, taking into account the fact that some mutations (in genes or in genes) could be accidentally "lost" or their frequency could accelerate / slow down. And this, believe me, is hellish work now. As for Klesov, he is criticized for the fact that, on the one hand, he claims that the mat of the popgenetics apparatus is completely wrong. but on the other that his method is very accurate. without providing any weighty evidence (such a serious statement and evidence must be very serious).

          Believe me, I myself, by profession, am a geneticist and even a little Ph.D., I have talked with popgenetics, molecular biologists and chemists more than once, so I know a little about what it is about))))))
          1. 0
            August 1 2016
            Quote: Albert1988
            Believe me, I myself, by profession, am a geneticist and even a little Ph.D., I have talked with popgenetics, molecular biologists and chemists more than once, so I know a little about what it is about))))))

            Willingly believe that you are a geneticist.
            But, apparently, you really understand very little.
            Do not worry! You have room to grow. love
            1. 0
              August 1 2016
              Quote: Rt-12
              Willingly believe that you are a geneticist.
              But, apparently, you really understand very little.

              Note - I am not a popgeneticist, I am a "developmental geneticist", so to speak, but I have an idea about popgenetics - I listened to lectures and seminars well and I was very interested in many things))). Of course, I cannot fully understand all aspects of genetics - just because. that this is no longer one science, but a whole group of sciences)))) This is not only me, but also the absolute majority of scientists, including my modest person (and even Professor Klesov!)))))
              Although your comments clearly show that you do not understand at all)))) Neither in popenetics, nor in its other areas.
              Quote: Rt-12
              Do not worry! You have room to grow.

              Of course - everyone always has a place to grow, so I advise you - first carefully study the literature on classical genetics, the basics of molecular genetics, and then you can switch to popgenetics, and only then you can study Klesov’s works hi
              1. 0
                August 1 2016
                Quote: Albert1988

                Although your comments clearly show that you do not understand at all)))) Neither in popenetics, nor in its other areas.

                Yes, dear Albert, I do not understand as a professional. Well, I'm not a biologist or scientist. My knowledge of biology is a high school over 30 years ago. Then the factory, then the watchman, now here is the janitor.

                But I am interested in these things, I read articles on the Reformat. I liked them very much, for me - the arguments of A.A. Klesova - convincing.
                Of course, I can’t understand everything at 100%, and when I bring the arguments here, they look naive to the biologist professional. I myself understand this.

                My problem is the same as in Chapaev’s anecdote: I can feel with my gut that 0.5 + 0.5 will be 1 liter, but mathematically - no matter how! drinks

                Albert! and you try to register at the Reformat and give your arguments there.
                I suspect that arguing with Klesov will not be as easy as with me. lol
                1. 0
                  August 1 2016
                  Quote: Rt-12
                  Yes, dear Albert, I do not understand as a professional. Well, I'm not a biologist or scientist. My knowledge of biology is a high school over 30 years ago. Then the factory, then the watchman, now here is the janitor.

                  But I am interested in these things, I read articles on the Reformat.

                  That you are interested is excellent. but here’s the problem - in order to understand the topic, it’s necessary not to read reformat, but first the basics — what science knows about genetics — to read about the works of Gregor Mendel, Thomas Gent Morgan and his followers, Alexander Sergeyevich Serebrovsky, Sergey Sergeyevich Chetverikov — any problem must be studied learn from the basics, because you can not learn mathematics immediately with higher, you must first learn the multiplication table.
                  And then you will understand that everything is much more complicated than it seems, and Klesov may have a bunch of holes and inconsistencies. As it happened with the so-called wave genetics - it seemed to explain everything, many books on this topic were published, many articles were published on the resources of Ala Reformat, and then the wave genetics turned out to be just an adjustment.
                  Quote: Rt-12
                  Albert! and you try to register at the Reformat and give your arguments there.

                  Believe it or not - Professor Baranovsky did it for me a long time ago, and what is the result? Mr. Klesov reduced everything to "politics" - he began to accuse his opponents of political engagement, Russophobia, and the like. And we will notice this not on the popular scientific Internet site, but at serious scientific conferences!
                  so this whole story with Klesov reminds me of a story with such "figures" as T.D. Lysenko and O.B, Lepeshinskaya, who threw our biology 50 years ago - also in response to all the criticism accused opponents of political engagement!
                  And what article Klesov wrote about this - "I call fire on myself" ...

                  Py. Sy. What I have learned over the past 10 years of close communication with scientists is that real scientists will never try to insist on the final truth of their theories - a real scientist always accepts that his theory may actually be incorrect and needs to be verified in numerous .
                  1. 0
                    August 2 2016
                    You won’t believe it. Professor Ba has done this for me a long time ago.рananovsky

                    Freud Reservation! smile

                    You don’t really know the name of your teacher. hi
                    1. +1
                      August 3 2016
                      Quote: Rt-12
                      Freud Reservation!

                      Uncle Sigmund, unfortunately, is outdated like a dinosaur, therefore, among psychologists and psychiatrists, relying on Freud is considered a bad man))))

                      Quote: Rt-12
                      You don’t really know the name of your teacher.

                      I repent, I have such a problem - I remember the names very poorly, there is such a thing feel
                      Although, as for me, I don’t remember the name of the teacher, but remember that he read to you much better than vice versa, agree? wink
                2. +1
                  August 1 2016
                  Oh, I beg your pardon - I write everywhere Baranovsky, and he Balanovsky, here he misrepresented respected Oleg Pavlovich, who, by the way, gave me excellent lectures!
                  I am literally now corresponding with a graduate student of Oleg Pavlovich - so this is what he told me about Klesov - Klesov's method is just a well-known method of "genetic clock" with some elementary modifications, which by the way has long been known to popgenetics and its very low accuracy has been established based on the results of its application ! Although the method is acceptable, no one disputes this.
                  What is completely wrong with Klesov is that he ascribes one specific haplogroup to each ethnic group - that is, it is argued that, say, the notorious R1b haplogroup of the Slavs, then all its carriers are descendants of the Slavs, although this haplogroup could have been in the most ancient protoethnos, which later broke up into the ancestors of the Slavs and other peoples, but from a linguistic and cultural point of view, it was completely different from its descendants. Here you can see the fit - so, for example, the carriers of this very R1b, according to Klesov, become a certain phantom ethnos - "Erbins", which does not exist in nature and there is no evidence of its existence ever ...
                  Especially alarming is the fact. that Klesov could only publish his work in the journal Advances in Anthropology, which is NOT scientific because it prints openly questionable work methodologies.

                  Py. Sy. And the most interesting thing is that Klesov himself is in the same USA, and he goes to Russia exclusively to promote his, so to speak dubious theories, an internal Chekist whispers that it may not be so clean with Mr. Klesov ...
                  1. 0
                    August 1 2016
                    No one argues that Anatoly Klyosov's method is a "genetic clock". Name the accuracy of this method as modified by Klyosov.

                    Klyosov claims only one thing - that in the bones of the carriers of the haplogroup R1a1 who lived 10000 years ago in Europe, 4000 years ago in Southern Siberia, 3800 years ago in Northern India, 3500 years ago in the Balkans and now in Eastern, Central and Southern Europe contains one and that subclade.

                    No one claims that the carriers of the dominant Aryan subclade of the haplogroup R1a1, the Indian brahmanas and kshatriyas (in the amount of 100 million people) and the Arabian sheikhs (in the amount of about 100 thousand people) are Slavs in their language and culture. The latter make up their own linguistic and cultural Eurasian community of approximately 200 million people.
                    Nevertheless, all three tribal communities are direct genetic relatives of descent from the Aryans.

                    If you do not like the term "Erbines", come up with a term for the tribal community of people of Western Europe with a dominant haplogroup R1b1 - Basques, Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians, French, British, Irish, Germans, Dutch, Belgians and Scandinavians.
                    1. 0
                      August 1 2016
                      Quote: Operator
                      Klyosov claims only one thing - that in the bones of the carriers of the haplogroup R1a1 who lived 10000 years ago in Europe, 4000 years ago in Southern Siberia, 3800 years ago in Northern India, 3500 years ago in the Balkans and now in Eastern, Central and Southern Europe contains one and that subclade.

                      So you do not really understand the essence of his research - that. what causes the greatest criticism from the scientific community is precisely that Klesov associates specific haplogroups with specific ethnic groups. This keynote goes through all his work.
                      Quote: Operator
                      Nevertheless, all three linguistic and cultural communities are direct genetic relatives of descent from the Aryans.

                      Again this is a term - "arias" - I repeat once again - it is not in science in the sense in which Klesov uses it, it is not simple!
                      Quote: Operator
                      If you do not like the term "erbines", come up with a term for the tribal community of people in Western Europe with a dominant haplogroup R1b1

                      I don’t care the name - even call them Smurfs - the main thing is that the ethnic group had to be invented in order to plug a hole in theory!
                      But the fact is that the ethnic groups that are the carriers of one hapldogroup - did not necessarily come from each other - the haplogroup may well be invasive, introduced by a tiny number of immigrants, spread as a result of genetic-automatic processes, that is, the very drift of genes. The process could act in the opposite direction - a haplogroup. which the ethnic group originally could have lost with time for the same reasons.

                      In general, I advise you to listen to Puchkov’s intelligence survey:
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJCyRyj1eKY
                      He talks with comrade Drobyshevsky (one of my teachers, by the way - led seminars on anthropology and I’ll say excellently led)))) - they very popularly discuss what a race, ethnos is, and how different mutations spread / disappear ...
                      1. 0
                        August 2 2016
                        You don’t want to understand simple logic - if we, the Slavs and some people who lived 10000-4000-3800-3500 years ago, have the same subclade of the same haplogroup, then this means that these people are our direct ancestors - without options .

                        And even if these people - our ancestors - appeared in written sources - Sanskrit chronicles - under the name of the aria, then everyone who has come up with other names now can go through the woods regardless of their academic ranks.

                        What about your denial of reality - the presence of a generic B1b community (note, not linguistic and cultural) - and the belief that a small number of carriers of a haplogroup can change the haplogroup y by several orders of magnitude more people, or that haplogroups can be "lost" - this is to Trofim Denisovich Lysenko.

                        Why do I need to listen to the opinion of the anthropologist on the issue in which he understands, like a pig in oranges - the method of genetic clocks.
                        All historians, anthropologists and linguists need to shut up and silently accept the results of research on archeology and DNA genetics as objective data, and only then build their hypotheses strictly within them.
                        An expert in DNA geneology said that people from a well-known subclade of a known haplogroup moved in time and space in such and such a route - that means that the point also moved. The archaeologist said that on this route during these periods of time such and such everyday objects of these people were found - a point. The DNA geneology specialist said that the direct descendants of these people at the moment are, for example, the Slavs, Brahmins and Sheikhs - two-hole snaps and silently scribbling their historical, anthropological and linguistic verses in these and no other frameworks.

                        Damn, the humanities have gone completely wrong - it’s as if theoretical physicists, supporters of the ether, would begin to teach experimental physicists during "intelligence interrogations" how to set up experiments in the field of an electromagnetic field.
                      2. 0
                        August 2 2016
                        Quote: Operator
                        You don’t want to understand simple logic - if we, the Slavs and some people who lived 10000-4000-3800-3500 years ago, have the same subclade of the same haplogroup, then this means that these people are our direct ancestors - without options .

                        Here you are mistaken - it may not be direct ancestors, but side branches, and very distant ones.
                        Quote: Operator
                        And even if these people - our ancestors - appeared in written sources - Sanskrit chronicles - under the name of the aria, then everyone who has come up with other names now can go through the woods regardless of their academic ranks.

                        Linguists who analyzed the Sanskrit annals did not find this there)))

                        Quote: Operator
                        What about your denial of reality - the presence of a generic B1b community (note, not linguistic and cultural) - and the belief that a small number of carriers of a haplogroup can change the haplogroup y by several orders of magnitude more people, or that haplogroups can be "lost" - this is to Trofim Denisovich Lysenko.

                        No, this is absolutely not according to Lysenko, this is according to S.S. Chetverikov, Lysenko just moved ideas close in spirit to the ideas of Ldesov (in the sense that everything around d ... and I'm one smart), and Chetverikov developed a serious scientific approach. proved its viability.
                        Quote: Operator
                        All historians, anthropologists and linguists need to shut up and silently accept the results of research on archeology and DNA genetics as objective data, and only then build their hypotheses strictly within them.

                        First, what do these historians and other anthropologists write about this issue - and only then tell who needs to ... because a scientific approach is an approach when ALL parties are considered. By the way, Klesov does not accept this very much - confirmation of his angry articles with an answer to criticism.
                        Quote: Operator
                        Damn, the humanities are completely overgrown

                        "Humanities" are also extremely well versed in their field. And then, if the "experimental physicist" is criticized by other experimental physicists, then at least one should think about it.
                  2. 0
                    August 2 2016
                    What is absolutely wrong with Klesov is that he ascribes to each ethnic group one specific haplogroup - that is, it is claimed that, say the notorious R1b is a haplogroup of Slavs, so all its carriers are descendants of the Slavs

                    Dear Albert, Klyosov never said that a haplogroup is an ethnic group.
                    He said that Russians, for example, are an ethnic group consisting of four large haplogroups and there are also minor ones. You apparently are simply not familiar with his work, and therefore say something that is not there.
                    This is also evident in R1b - supposedly a haplogroup of Slavs. R1a - actually among the Slavs. You are even confused in haplogroups, and you undertake to teach.
                    1. 0
                      August 2 2016
                      Quote: Rt-12
                      Dear Albert, Klyosov never said that a haplogroup is an ethnic group.

                      Klesov quote from the article you quoted - Klesov retells his words from the polemic:
                      "There is Slavs belonging to the haplogroup R1a, and then they, together with the arias, belong to the same haplogroupto one genus. That is, they are descendants of the same common ancestor, the ancestor of this haplogroup."
                      This is equivalent to attributing an ethnic group to a haplogroup ...

                      So let's really postpone the discussion until you study all sides of the problem, because while Klesov’s opinion is pressing on you, and you can’t achieve the truth, guided by only one opinion ...
                3. 0
                  August 1 2016
                  Here is another reference to Balanovsky’s interview - popular and understandable:
                  http://www.kp.ru/daily/26099/2997176/
                  1. 0
                    August 2 2016
                    Here's another reference to Balanovsky - popular and understandable:

                    And here is another reference to Balanovsky - no less popular and interesting:

                    http://pereformat.ru/2014/12/balanovskie/
                    1. 0
                      August 2 2016
                      Quote: Rt-12
                      And here is another reference to Balanovsky - no less popular and interesting:

                      I read these outpourings of Mr. Klesov, a long time ago, it was really interesting - a complete transition to personalities and complete rejection of any criticism and frank distortion of what was in reality at this round table.
                      Which leads to some very bad thoughts, although as a biochemist Klesov is an excellent specialist, but he climbed into an alien sphere for himself and it started ...
                      It's a pity...

                      Py.Sy. Judging by your answers to my previous comment, you did not bother to get acquainted with the opinion of Klesov's critics - and by the way, the basis of the scientific approach is the study of all points of view - all the pros and cons. Here it is required to abstract from personal preferences and sympathies and try to consider everything objectively. Do this - and everything will change right away - you will immediately understand that Klesov’s everything is far from cloudless, and that the problem is much more complicated than ishira. what Klesov represents, which simplifies many places ...

                      For this I consider it necessary to postpone our discussion, as we get acquainted with all the sources - so we can continue hi
    8. 0
      August 1 2016
      I am joining. English films measure everything by their standards, because half of their royal families are connected with the Vikings, the conquest of the Vikings in Old Europe is undeniable ... but the Slavs have always been apart and still infuriate the whole West
    9. +1
      August 1 2016
      What to take from the British "scientists"? We are already aware of their fabrications in various branches of science ... Once there was Britain, now there is little Britain
  2. +16
    July 30 2016
    Anatoly Klyosov, as usual, is gracefully laconic and sophisticatedly accurate in his answers. Thanks for this article! (+) - definitely.
    It's a shame that this article ends so quickly. In addition, it is pleasant that the article does not talk about the not very unambiguous concept of "Slavs" and uses the more understandable term Russians (although it is better to use the terms Rus or Rusichi). As for the appearance of the peoples of the Finno-Ugric group (haplogroups N1c1 and N1b1) 2500 years ago, this is new, it was previously believed that their appearance began only in the 1th century, perhaps both numbers are correct, it all depends on their number and percentage with other peoples. The initial appearance of the people with the haplogroup R1a, later also R1a7000, was noticed more than XNUMX years ago, even in the very center of St. Petersburg a settlement of this age with a traditional Russian fence was discovered (Gardarika is such a country). Generally a pleasant article.
    1. +1
      July 30 2016
      In particular, historians [⇨], anthropologists [⇨], ethnologists, linguists and most specialists in the field of population genetics [⇨] spoke out against the "DNA genealogy". (C) wiki- note, protest mainly those who are in the subject- "not in the tooth with a foot"
      Nevertheless, until a complete acquaintance with the publications, I would refrain from evaluating this theory (despite disagreement with the "generally accepted" dogmas of historians)
      1. +1
        July 30 2016
        Sorry, but this is not a theory, but a scientific fact. The male Y-chromosome is not a hypothesis.
      2. 0
        July 31 2016
        Nevertheless, until I became fully acquainted with the publications, I would refrain from evaluating this theory.


        Klyosov has many popular articles on the Reformat site.
    2. +2
      July 30 2016
      Quote: venaya
      About the appearance of the peoples of the Finno-Ugric group (haplogroup N1c1 and N1b1) 2500 years ago - this is new, it was previously believed that their appearance began only in the 1th century, maybe both numbers are correct, it all depends on their number and percentage ratio with other peoples. The initial appearance of the people with the haplogroup R1a, later R1a7000, was noticed more than XNUMX years ago, even in the very center of St. Petersburg a settlement of this age with a traditional Russian fence was discovered (Gardarika is such a country). Generally a nice article.

      ----------------------------
      In general, if you are an attentive person and have traveled or travel a lot in the CIS countries and abroad, if, moreover, you can compare and analyze historical, linguistic, cultural data, note some biological differences in people with whom you met, then it is easy can distinguish between ethnic types. Then take a map of the distribution of various linguistic and ethnic groups and compare with your observations. What, for example, am I doing. As a child, I traveled from Chuvashia to the Komi-Permyak Autonomous Okrug, and by ear immediately distinguished differences in dialect (the film "Real Boys" to help, they say so in the Urals and in the Kirov region). If the Chuvash are mostly brunettes, then there were a lot of fair-haired and I was very different in appearance (now, of course, a lot of things were mixed up). Then I got to Moscow, there is generally an even greater international - Arabs, Vietnamese, Sengali and Bengali, Caucasians and Central Asians of all stripes. In general, just write it down. Therefore, I quite clearly delineate the range of Russians approximately as the author of the article. I can repeat - in the west - along the line of the Arkhangelsk - the left bank of the Dnieper and to Odessa, in the east along the line of Nizhny Novgorod and to Orenburg (you can include northern Kzakhstan, but as a secondary area), to the east of the Chuvash, Tatars, Bashkirs, Mari, Mordvinians, Udmurts-Votyaks, Komi and so on.
      1. +4
        July 30 2016
        Generally respected about the appearance. Mongoloid blood is very strong. It costs one European dude to take an Asian as a wife, almost all children in 4 generations will be Asians. And to have blood, for example, R1A1. About Kazakhstan. Kazakhs, for example, are not a single nation. Different zhuzes and tribes have different halogen groups. There are Kazakhs where almost all R1A1. And the Russian expansion of the 17-20 centuries has nothing to do with this. Half have Turkic roots and parts are Mongolian. Just one more time. Mongolian blood is very strong. As a result of excavations of Scythian graves in Mongolia. There is such a plateau where there is permafrost. Many remains were found. So there are people with Asian features and European ones. But the overwhelming halo is R1A1. The Scythians had R1A1. And this is a fact. And they lived from Korea to Central Europe. Regarding Korea.)) Somehow they found burial sites of about 5000-6000 years ago. They started ringing that they had found ancient cows. (by analogy with the ancient Ukrainians)))) They began to make reconstruction of skulls. And what a disappointment they were when the reconstruction turned out to be Caucasians.
        The Kazakhs also have the same history after the reconstruction of the remains of the Andronovo culture in Kazakhstan))
      2. -1
        July 30 2016
        So I, this is "..and so on." And those of my ilk, too. It's funny to read the clever people. I studied the ABC book, and drove to click on the buttons.
  3. +8
    July 30 2016
    very interesting article! hi
  4. +8
    July 30 2016
    A smart article, I take off my hat, thank you very much. Interestingly, the data presented are perceived by Western colleagues? Roughly speaking, a multiplication table has appeared for historians. We look forward to continuing
  5. +19
    July 30 2016
    I agree with venaya, the memory of us and our roots began to be killed immediately after the imposition of Christianity on Russia. And they succeeded quite strongly in this "case". Just what are the words of Mr. Gundyaev about the Russians, who before the adoption of Christianity were "barbarians - second-class people." This gentleman, in fact, is the head of the RUSSIAN Orthodox Church. This is how much you have to hate your people in order to talk such nasty things about them. Yes, it's better to have your own devil than other people's gods.
    1. +10
      July 30 2016
      Quote: ChAK
      I agree with venaya, the memory of us and our roots began to be killed immediately after the imposition of Christianity on Russia. And they succeeded quite strongly in this "case". Just what are the words of Mr. Gundyaev about the Russians, who before the adoption of Christianity were "barbarians - second-class people." This gentleman, in fact, is the head of the RUSSIAN Orthodox Church. This is how much you have to hate your people in order to talk such nasty things about them. Yes, it's better to have your own devil than other people's gods.

      In Russia, for a long time already, everything that can be completely chosen, God’s chosen, has been headed
      And so they will write to us such an ITORY that Mama Do not Cry ...
    2. -9
      July 30 2016
      Quote: ChAK
      I agree with venaya, the memory of us and our roots began to be killed immediately after the imposition of Christianity on Russia. And they succeeded quite strongly in this "case". Just what are the words of Mr. Gundyaev about the Russians, who before the adoption of Christianity were "barbarians - second-class people." This gentleman, in fact, is the head of the RUSSIAN Orthodox Church. This is how much you have to hate your people in order to talk such nasty things about them. Yes, it's better to have your own devil than other people's gods.


      Millions of murdered Russians personally by Prince Vladimir?

      Maine Gott, Topvar more and more resembles some kind of Dolboslav public VK than a more or less serious resource.
      1. +3
        July 30 2016
        Where is it about the millions killed? In Kiev, what?
        1. +2
          July 30 2016
          And why the hell is Kiev, long-awaited, supposed to be marked with millions of dead? In those days, the "Kyyans" traded in conscience no worse than today. It is clear that no one asked the "castles" of that time. Remember 1991? Moscow and St. Petersburg (less) "for democracy", the rest - "Where are you going?" And then, Kiev and Novgorod "under the cross", the rest - into the font, or under the knife.
      2. +4
        July 30 2016
        Mine is a goth, you can't get the word out of the song. Only facts: Vladimir betrayed his father's business, Svyatoslav, did he come to an agreement with the Greeks? - Yes, 100 percent. Did you kill your brothers with the hands of mercenaries? - Yes, I did. Not by seniority did the "throne" seize, again by the hands of mercenaries, Novgorodians, mind you, but alien Varangians)? - Yes, I did. Did you perform human sacrifices? - Yes, I did. Regarding alien religions, did you dig / bargain as if trying on clothes in a bazaar? - Yes. Children / grandchildren of Vladimir, distracted from the internecine bickering, did the Magi cut the floor? - Yes, it was. Did you accept the religion of the geopolitical enemy (Byzantium, and then there was no other after Khazaria)? Yes, he accepted, despite the words of his father Svyatoslav, they say "Christian Faith is ugliness." Despite the "Christianization" he polygamous, had over a hundred concubines (that is, the girls essentially spoiled). And this is just an OFFICIAL HISTORY. As for Russia, the tribes before it were united, for as long as three generations. Only not with a cross and a sword, but administratively (gathering of warriors) and economically (tribute). This is quite enough to represent how "under the shadow of the cross" power was usurped by "princes" (earlier it was an analogue of an elder, - an elective position, - a court, administration, economy), how ancient Truth was trampled on (partly preserved by Novgorod, which the "unloved son" , Yaroslav, bestowed on Novgorodians "for merit"). So it is not difficult to imagine what the Christianized "rabichich" warriors were doing in Russia.
  6. +5
    July 30 2016
    The article is really interesting, thanks to the professor.
  7. +5
    July 30 2016
    Thank God that we still have normal scientists, not saints of the West! What can we talk about if the Russians taught Europe to wash! So Europe cannot forgive such a shame and constantly invents all sorts of fables about the origin of the RUSSIANS! It would be necessary for Professor Klyosov to check the origin of the ETRUSKOV and I think that it will not cause much surprise if they turn out to be our ancestors! All modern history has been forged by Western "historians" and it is clear in whose interests, they were simply ruled by the desire to cover up their "inferiority", etc. etc.!
    1. +5
      July 30 2016
      Quote: kartalovkolya
      It would be necessary for Professor Klyosov to check the origin of the ETRUSKOV and I think that it will not cause much surprise if they turn out to be our ancestors! All modern history has been forged by Western "historians" and it is clear in whose interests ...

      Sorry, but you have touched a sore spot on very, very many! Such information in the open press "in the afternoon with fire" cannot be unearthed and not at all because it is not known, it is just really the sickest callus... According to professional DNA genealogists, not only Etruscans (rasEyan), but even their "little ones" who have already arrived from Africa - Latins, they should also have haplogroup R1a1 (now mainly representatives of haplogroups J1 and J2 - from Arabia - live there). Representatives of the haplogroup R1b1 - who also came from the vastness of Africa, did not and could not have such a high culture. So for political reasons, the publication of such materials is simply closed, as well as a lot else. A. Klyosov himself may know all this, but he still needs to work and work in the West, so it is better to let others talk about it.
  8. +7
    July 30 2016
    All peoples of the world have a history that has been disappearing for thousands of years, but Russians and people living in Russia do not have it. It is necessary to raise this question and ask gentlemen historians why and with what intent they write the history of Russians and peoples on the territory of the Russian Federation.
    1. +3
      July 30 2016
      Straight like this "everything"?
      1. +2
        July 31 2016
        what Well, yes, the state of Israel has existed for just over half a century.
  9. +7
    July 30 2016
    In 1934, the Swedish archaeologist Folke Bergman discovered about 200 mummies of fair-haired and Caucasian in the Tarim depression in northwestern China (an area known as Xinjiang, East Turkestan or Uyghur). The oldest of the mummies date back to 2000 BC. and 7 men were tested by scientists in 2010 and were positive for SNP mutations characteristic of haplogroup R1a1. The modern inhabitants of the Tarim river basin are Uyghurs, who belong both to the haplogroup R1b-M73 (about 20%) and the haplogroup R1a1 (about 30%).
  10. -4
    July 30 2016
    My God, now genetics, and with outdated concepts (a halogen study of the last century in the literal sense, deeper studies are now available) and history that does not understand other sciences, turns history around. Typical protoucre research. Yes - they are our ancestors, but where do the Slavs. And here the Russians are - the emergence of a nation is many times more complex than blood relationship. It is not news for science that the local population, adopting the languages ​​and cultural components of the new settlers, becomes the ancestors of their common descendants. Genetic kinship with some peoples gets along with cultural and linguistic kinship with Western and Southern Slavs, for example, Such studies are also about the territory of European Russia. Not to mention the fact that the name Rus is not acceptable when talking about the ancestors of Russians, Ukrainians and other peoples and is unacceptable even for any of them, because its application to the people is doubtful. In the brief period of the appearance of this word, the majority of the local population were called slavs in written external sources.
    Previously, the mathematician Fomenko was the biggest evil. In fashion, Ivanov / Petrov, a geneticist, will now appear.
    Now there is a lot of good literature coming out at the intersection of sciences and genetics, being one of the main innovations in the study of history, goes very well hand in hand with archeology and linguistics.
    1. +7
      July 30 2016
      Maegrom

      Of course, I am not an expert in the field of genetics and DNA genealogy.

      But something tells me that truth is born in a dispute.
      If you are a specialist - argue with Professor A. Klyosov!
      He has a "theory" and you have a "theory".
      How is your "theory" better than his "theory"?
      Bash to bash!
      So prove him right.
      Call him for a scientific discussion and develop his delusions.

      Maybe his facts or, if you like, theory are moot from a scientific point of view. But at least he expressed doubts about the loyalty of those conclusionsthat have been made on this issue recently, and, by the way, does not state that it is the ultimate truth.

      At the moment, that chewing gum that is presented to our citizens does not stand up to criticism.
      And this is being done insolently and categorically by our own media.

      Still, I think that Lomonosov was right in his "Ancient Russian History".

      Somehow I believe Lomonosov and Professor Klyosov more than Western "world scientific luminaries".
      1. +1
        July 30 2016
        http://antropogenez.ru/review/814/
        The opinion of the professional community. Sent in the dark, have not read.
        1. +1
          July 30 2016
          Quote: Maegrom
          //anthropogenez.ru/review/814/
          The opinion of the professional community. Sent in the dark, have not read.

          I read. Custom article designed for amateurs in order to denigrate Kolesov.
          Cutting quotes out of context and combating them (damned quotes).
          The referenced article does not in any way refer to the "opinion of the professional community".
          There is not even an author there, but there is "science-like".
          1. +3
            July 31 2016
            There is not even an author


            Top left.
          2. 0
            August 1 2016
            You are absolutely clearly not familiar with the focus, the method of working with publications on the site of anthropogenesis, nor are you trying to dispute any information cited in criticism, which is natural because you do not understand it. You refer to science of science, but it is in the Klesov Articles, by the way presented here as an interview with Klesov in the preamble, that external science is not a means but an end.
  11. +4
    July 30 2016
    The article mentions Pskov several times. From the point of view of genetics, Pskov can be misleading. Eternal borderland. At the moment, Pskov region. It borders with three states. And what was in the old days? Many cultures, dialects and religions mixed here, but Russian Orthodoxy triumphed.
    Representatives of the Finno-Ugric peoples live near Pskov, in the Pechora district - the Setos, with very large reservations of which can be called Orthodox Estonians. They escaped forced catholicism thanks to Russia. Then they voluntarily converted to Orthodoxy. In Estonia, Setos are not considered a separate people, but considered Estonians. Seto language is different from Estonian, as Russian is from Bulgarian.
    In Palkino in 1812. there was a large camp of French prisoners of war captured near Polotsk. They also left their genes in the Pskov land. In the Pskov region, due to its geographical position, many peoples, friends and enemies, left the genetic mark.
    1. -1
      July 31 2016
      Setu, Vod, All, Izhora, Sum, Imen, Esti, Karely - Baltic group of the FINNISH peoples,
      Quote: igordok
      Finno-Ugric representatives - Set

      why not say the representatives of the Finno-Ugric Samoyedians, after all, you put an equal sign between the Hungarians and the Setos, however, as a professor, and as authors are coming out, equate the Seto with the Nenets, or simplify all three branches to generalizing "Ural people".
  12. +4
    July 30 2016
    Quote: Maegrom
    My God, now genetics, and with outdated concepts (a halogen study of the last century in the literal sense, deeper studies are now available) and history that does not understand other sciences, turns history around. Typical protoucre research. Yes - they are our ancestors, but where do the Slavs. And here the Russians are - the emergence of a nation is many times more complex than blood relationship. It is not news for science that the local population, adopting the languages ​​and cultural components of the new settlers, becomes the ancestors of their common descendants. Genetic kinship with some peoples gets along with cultural and linguistic kinship with Western and Southern Slavs, for example, Such studies are also about the territory of European Russia. Not to mention the fact that the name Rus is not acceptable when talking about the ancestors of Russians, Ukrainians and other peoples and is unacceptable even for any of them, because its application to the people is doubtful. In the brief period of the appearance of this word, the majority of the local population were called slavs in written external sources.
    Previously, the mathematician Fomenko was the biggest evil. In fashion, Ivanov / Petrov, a geneticist, will now appear.
    Now there is a lot of good literature coming out at the intersection of sciences and genetics, being one of the main innovations in the study of history, goes very well hand in hand with archeology and linguistics.

    Apparently you have seen enough of Mr. Goblin with his pseudo historians in his commercials Zhukov and Yulin. I liked their theory about the Huns and China, I laughed for a long time.
    1. +2
      July 30 2016
      What did Yulin not please?
    2. +2
      July 30 2016
      I look at the Goblin and respect Zhukov and Yulin, although I do not agree with them on everything. But this information is not from them. There are many adequate academic sources.
  13. +11
    July 30 2016
    "And the savages are now wringing their hands,
    They break spears, break bows "

    Listen to what a true Finno-Ugro-Tatar-Mongol will tell you, in whose passport, at one time in the column "nationality" it was written Russian. Dig a little deeper, your own pedigree - you will find a lot of interesting things. According to grandmothers (both grandfathers died in the war) in the pedigree on both lines were Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Astrakhan Tatars and even Tungus. My father-in-law is -100% Mordvins, respectively, children (3 pieces), and granddaughters (so far 4 pieces) all have such a cocktail And, you will not believe, everyone considers themselves Russian.)
    1. +2
      July 30 2016
      Oprychnik

      Nobody argues with this.

      And I have the same picture (Russians, Little Russians, Turks, Poles).

      But the article is not about those who consider themselves who they are, not about the appearance and facial features, not about specific genealogies.

      It's about DNA.

      And I suspect that you can have the appearance of a Mongol, and DNA will show that you are Russian.

      Just like Pushkin Alexander Sergeevich unforgettable!
      1. 0
        July 30 2016
        I don’t know what DNA will show, but you will not find people with more, so we will call it, "Aryan" appearance, with blue eyes, hair color from light blond to just light brown in my family. As Gauvril Aksenov - ripe rye with cornflowers.)
        1. 0
          July 30 2016
          Well, your relatives inherited not only Russian R1a from the male line, but also from the female line of chromosomes, and even mitochondrial heredity from mothers (this is the DNA of the maternal egg outside the cell nucleus).
          Pushkin, despite his African ancestors, is a real haplogroup - R1a. Most of your ancestors are not your genetic ancestors. You, like any person, are the bearer of the "half" of heredity from the father and the "half" of the inheritance from the mother, which together represent 4 genetic "halves" - two for each. Your grandmothers and grandfathers are already eight "halves" of DNA, and your great-grandmothers and great-grandfathers are already as many as sixteen. And you have two currents from them - the rest turned out to be only, so to speak, transitory, for the transmission of your heredity to you. The same will happen with your inheritance - not all of your legal descendants will become your genetic ones.
    2. +1
      July 30 2016
      You are talking about genes, But Klyosov explores haplotypes, this is somewhat different. Here you can order a study: http://dna-academy.ru/test/ everything is done remotely.
  14. +6
    July 30 2016
    For me, to be honest, what matters is not the fact of your appearance, when and from whom (well, not very significant), but what position and influence you have achieved. If the Poles and Tribalts can only lie under someone ("suck like some kind of frayer" - Minister of Foreign Affairs of Poland), then Russia is considered, even when in the 90s the country was practically destroyed, no one Western "colleagues and partners" did not have the courage to take serious steps against Russia. So it is more important not who you were, but what you have become.
    At least the country "crap mattress" was generally a colony of Naglossakts, and bent the whole World, well, except for Russia. And that is why they scream at us that they could not completely break it. They bent down, slegontsa, but only now Russia is straightening like a spring. And if they do not remove their "bread machine" from the straightening trajectory, they will cut it off all over their insolent muzzle. hi laughing
  15. +2
    July 30 2016
    It seems to me that for a very long time theories about the Slavs that came out of nowhere and about the RUSSIANS who * broke away * from this or that nation, or about cultural backwardness or about ..., will be thrown for a long time since there are and will be customers.
    Many devious theories are based on religion, frank lies and falsification of * historical * evidence and * saint * evidence are put on stream throughout the world. The most grandiose hoax occurs with the history of China, to which the history and justification of antiquity were composed by the Jesuits. The business of creating * ancient * artifacts, with the full support of the authorities, is still widespread in China.
    In our country, as an example, one can cite an actively circulated * miracle * during the defense of MOSCOW in 1941, which they could defend only with the icon of some mother who was transported by plane to the front.
    The clergy will always find the justification for their lies, but they are all based on * the unreasonableness of the flock * and * the unnecessary extra * knowledge.
    By the way, ORTHODOXY has nothing to do with the church; ORTHODOXY was a way of life and worldview. The ORTHODOX church in RUSSIA only became in 1943, before that its OFFICIAL name was * Greek Greek orthodox *.
    1. +4
      July 30 2016
      ORTHODOX church in RUSSIA only became in 1943, before that its OFFICIAL name was - * Greek Greek orthodox *


      You, by chance, are not confused with the terms Orthodox Catholic Russian-Greek Church or Russian Orthodox Catholic Church (used until 1917, in the so-called Synodal period)?

      The Catholic Church means the ecumenical, whole, conciliar, etc.

      Greek churches - the same as the Uniate, belong to the Eastern Catholic churches.
  16. 0
    July 30 2016
    Science is based on facts. The article points out: "Spoons" - to the west.
  17. +6
    July 30 2016
    Article plus. It is high time to write the history of Russia based on a wide range of historical and scientific facts. Indeed, we are being told the story of Russia, composed by the Germans, where the Europeans "light in the window" and we are all such dense semi-animals.
  18. +2
    July 30 2016
    The article took place and mathematically accurate scientific answers were given to fundamental questions. It turns out that Russians are not "younger" than any Germans with French and Normans. Questions arise about "Fatyanovskaya culture" in particular and about the media coverage of A. Klesov's achievements. I hope these articles are not the last, it would also not hurt to send a couple or three to Roskomobraz to expand the horizons (or an official answer).
  19. 0
    July 30 2016
    We are Slavs! And our race is glorious!
  20. +1
    July 30 2016
    The article is very interesting. I think the topic could be continued by the author. He was not afraid of the established opinion or the point of view of official representatives of many scientific circles. Unfortunately, there will always be a politician in this matter, as if we did not want to differentiate the evidence in the article itself
  21. +2
    July 30 2016
    The professor said well: Truth is more terrible for academic historians than war!
  22. 0
    July 30 2016
    Quote: Darkness
    Where is it about the millions killed? In Kiev, what?

    Addict, find in my post at least a word about Kiev or Ukraine. Or is it already a reflex, like Pavlov’s dog, to translate everything into a hohlosrach?
  23. 0
    July 30 2016
    ... "the location of the burials of the Fatyanovites was typical for people belonging to the haplogroup R1a"

    what is common in the corpus lute position and haplogroup?
    1. +4
      July 30 2016
      The customs of bury were handed down from generation to generation and have their own characteristics for each people, this is implied.
    2. 0
      July 31 2016
      It turns out the method of corpse was different among the tribes of different haplogroups.
      For example: at R1a - on its side, knees are bent, at R1b - on its back, elongated.
  24. -12
    July 30 2016
    Does this Klyosov perform in more than one cage with Zadornov and the other circus? if so, information should be regarded with great suspicion.
    1. +1
      July 30 2016
      Klesov operates with data recorded in dna. It is not his fault that hereditary signs are passed from father to son, as it was in nature.
      1. -4
        July 30 2016
        You write as if it was all written in black and white - tabular. The fact of the matter is that the interpretation is important, and here it is adapted to the fanatical beliefs of the author. For what they persecute him, if memory serves, in my opinion there are already many where.
    2. +1
      July 30 2016
      With suspicion, that is, with healthy skepticism, you need to relate to any information, and not selectively ...
      1. 0
        July 30 2016
        Sources also vary in the degree of yellowness.
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      1. 0
        July 30 2016
        You yourself answered your question! hi zhd is not a nationality, but a state of unsold remnants of conscience and soul! laughing
        1. +1
          July 31 2016
          In Marx, almost the same "A Jew is not a nationality, but a person's attitude to money" (On the Jewish question)
    2. 0
      July 31 2016
      .. Jewish is not a nation or nationality, there is no Jewish state ...
      There is Jewishism - a way of life and worldview ..
      There is a state of Israel-nationality of Israel ..
      The Arab peoples have a branch of the Semites ..
      Semites living in Zion preach the doctrine of Zionism = Jewish Nazism .. This doctrine-Zionism is condemned and prohibited by the UN.
      "a crafty Jew-well ...... -criminal" -this is how the Church defines it .. "well ...... parhaty" - the criminal authority of the Jews-like a thief in law ".. Not so white and fluffy this "God's chosen people" ..
      1. 0
        July 31 2016
        This Doctrine - Zionism Condemned and Prohibited by the UN

        Everything is a bit more complicated here. The assertion that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination was present in UN General Assembly Resolution 3379, adopted in 1975.

        In 1991, Resolution 4686 was adopted, repealing Resolution 3379.
        1. +1
          July 31 2016
          Quote: By outsiders V.
          In 1991, Resolution 4686 was adopted, repealing Resolution 3379.


          On December 8, 1991, the USSR collapsed, and on December 16, 1991, Zionism-fascism was abolished. If the Soviet Union were whole, then the Zionists would never have been able to reverse this UN decision. Since the collapse of the USSR, an era of total lies and lawlessness has come ...
          1. +1
            July 31 2016
            Maybe. But from a legal point of view, the condemnation of Zionism as racism by the UN General Assembly has been canceled.
  27. 0
    July 30 2016
    Kind people! Get used to calling yourself RUSA. I am Russian, and my language is Russian. Why is there a German, a Frenchman, a Swede, an Englishman, etc.? No one says - out of German went further on the list. And we get I RUSSIAN, my language is Russian. It's time to dot over i and over e. If we don’t start with ourselves, nobody will do it for us. All great rivers begin with a tiny brook. IMHO.

    P.S. For those interested in this topic, I advise you to look at this site: http://www.kramola.info/vesti
    1. 0
      July 31 2016
      You are not right.
      Yes, all nations are designated by nouns, and all races are indicated by adjectives. Russians are not a nation, Russians are a separate race.
      Let us put all the dots over Y. Russian - MAN, the adjective is attached to the noun, and the Pole (for example) is a Pole, not a person.
  28. 0
    July 30 2016
    There is also more about the haplogroup R1a1. Who cares

    http://www.proza.ru/2012/04/03/1662.
  29. 0
    July 30 2016
    Who cares who lived on the territory of modern Russia several thousand years ago, if the West recognizes only the post-war borders? And according to them, the Crimea is Russian, and the rest illegally separated (hello to the Kosovo separatists)! laughing The article is interesting, I would like to see more detailed information on this topic. hi
  30. +4
    July 31 2016
    I have different nationalities in my family. Thank you if someone explains to me in terms of science. Very interesting! Only by and large will it not affect my life. I speak Russian, I think Russian, I live in Russia, Orthodox. I am Russian!
    1. +1
      July 31 2016
      .. I don’t believe in God - atheist ..
  31. +4
    July 31 2016
    Well, what is history, with all due respect to it, a prostitute is in the hands of those in power. And what is chemistry, exact science.
    Only here is the author’s pity, he’ll have a hard time.
    1. +1
      July 31 2016
      gostomysl
      Only here is the author’s pity, he’ll have a hard time.

      That's for sure! He is already a REAL Scientist! Which, in the struggle for an objective, scientifically sound truth in science, even makes personal sacrifices! He will not give up his truly scientific knowledge! And it is right! All the Heroes of Science bravo! And bravo to him!
  32. +1
    July 31 2016
    Quote: clidon
    Does this Klyosov perform in more than one cage with Zadornov and the other circus? if so, information should be regarded with great suspicion.

    Eco national team pounced on-even 10 minuses stuck-they disagree ..
  33. +4
    July 31 2016
    The article is very interesting. But why they don’t explain how they determined that the male representatives of the Fatyanovo culture had the haplogroup R1a? When and where did they find the remains of burials, who and where did they study the preserved DNA fragments? And links to this information.
    1. +1
      July 31 2016
      look at here.

      http://pereformat.ru/2016/04/r1a-migration-2/
  34. +1
    July 31 2016
    somewhere I already met data that the culture of the peoples inhabiting Russia for about 8000 years. everything seems to converge, we are not rootless ..... we are local!
  35. +1
    July 31 2016
    Quote: ksv36
    P.S. For those interested in this topic, I advise you to look at this site: http://www.kramola.info/vesti

    He looked in. As if he went to the circus of freaks.
    "What can you get in the church?"
    "Ideocracy - the evolution of the Church"
    "Bold point in the US lunar scam"
    "The hidden truth about cities on the moon"
    "A global conspiracy against hemp"
    "Communism - the brainchild of the Jews?"


    Why are dolboslavs such drug addicts, huh? And yes, go ahead, fans of wooden members, drive me a turnip in the red. : 3
  36. +4
    July 31 2016
    Lies, apparently due to their nature, are spreading faster than Truth on the Internet. One gets the impression that the Internet was specially invented to spread the lie. Under such conditions, we will not only not get to the bottom of the Truth, but already our children will not even know the name of this professor and other true scientists. And you have to do something about it.
  37. 0
    July 31 2016
    to be honest, absolutely ... it doesn't matter (what's wrong with my roots))))) ... whether the Mongols "visited" or "Apaches")))))
    1. +2
      July 31 2016
      the Mongols are a group C, and it is practically not among the Russians.
  38. +2
    July 31 2016
    Curious article ...
  39. +2
    July 31 2016
    Thanks for the interview. The topic is interesting. I am planning to read "Your DNA Genealogy. Recognize Your Family" by Anatoly Alekseevich Klesov
  40. +2
    July 31 2016
    Dear author!
    Do you pretend to be a scientific version of the origin of the Russian people? Then why don't you give at least the sample size at every mention of the haplogroup? The desire to ascribe to himself the discovery throws the newly-minted scientists into any serious.

    Here is an example of your distribution of your favorite haplogroup, (taken from Wikipedia):

    The greatest distribution of R1a is in Central and South Asia, in Central and Eastern Europe: among the Brahmins of the Indian states of West Bengal and Uttar Pradesh, this haplogroup is found with a frequency of 72% and 67%, respectively, among Ludiches (63%), among Belarusians (60% ), among Poles (about 56%), among Ukrainians (53%), among Russians (50%), among Kuban Nogais up to 50%, among Kyrgyz people up to 50%, among Altaians (from 38% among northern, to 53%) among the South), among Latvians (39%), among Lithuanians (34%), among Kazan Tatars (up to 34-44%), among Crimean Tatars (32%), among Bashkirs (26%), among Karachais and Balkars, from 20 up to 34%.
    The origin of the numbers can be found on this "R1a" Wikipedia page.
    If you so zealously attribute R1a to only Russians, then what to do with all of these, some of which have more carriers of this haplogroup than Russians?
    Here I am Kazakh, my maternal grandfather, Kazakh in 12 tribes (we have this strictly), was a carrier R1a. There is nothing Russian in our phenotype. And how do I live with this?)))))))

    You see
    1. ONLY IN SEPARATED PEOPLES, ISLANDS FOR EXAMPLE, CAN BE SUPPRESSED HAPLOGROUP.
    2. YOU DO NOT PRESENT THE SAMPLE SIZES INTENTIONED, AS AN EXAMPLE OF 100-200 EXPERIENCES DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO MAKE CONCLUSIONS FOR THE WHOLE PEOPLE.
    3. SPECULATION ON PSEUDOUSCience allows you to make a fool of naive, badly informed, and what to do with the rest?
    4. WHAT DO YOU INTEND TO DO WITH RUSSIANS (AND THIS IS 50%), WHICH ARE OTHER HAPLOGROUP?

    You definitely love and honor your people. Do not humiliate him with a lie.
    1. +1
      July 31 2016
      Atigay

      It would be interesting to know: what did your opponent answer you?

      Or is it a purely scientific discussion and without special education does it make no sense for us to read?
    2. +2
      July 31 2016
      Quote: Atygay
      3. SPECULATION ON PSEUDONASIS LETS YOU FOULING A NAIVE, BAD INFORMEDWHAT TO DO WITH OTHERS?

      Sorry, but Who are you ??? Can you be the generally recognized absolute president of absolutely all academies around the world and its surroundings, as well as absolute authority in all available known and also still unknown sciences? Who gave you the right to assess so categorically a very outstanding researcher in his specific new field of science, who, moreover, has significant and widely recognized successes in a specific area of ​​scientific research among specialists in his field. You are considering only one haplogroup R1a - for some reason calling it Russian, although the age of formation of this haplogroup is 20 years (a common father, not a mother) and it originated in the Sayan and Baikal regions. How long did it take for the descendants of a common father to populate almost half of the world? And they really did it. Please be more attentive, A. Klyosov himself often refers to the Russian haplogroup R000a1, more precisely R1a1a1, for example, in contrast to the Germans, who have the haplogroup R1a1a1 (and they and many others, after all, were also once Russians too). And the term "Russians" itself is young, originated during the reign of John IV, and then referred only to the inhabitants of Kazkhan, then Ukraine. Previously they used the term - Rusy, Rusichi. And what do you write: - "I am Kazakh, my maternal grandfather, Kazakh in 12 knees (we have this strictly), was a carrier R1a. There is nothing Russian in our phenotype".
      Well if "you with this strictly" - so if you please be strict to the end: The term "Kazakh" itself appeared only in 1936 on the territory of residence of the Cossacks, in the Cossack villages - hence the abbreviated Kazakhкstan, in 1936 (find out by whom specifically) renamed Kazaхstan, and some of the local residents (more often with the haplogroup "C" of the Mongoloid species) were called Kazakhs, in contrast to the many thousands of years of the Kaza ancestors living in those placesкs with haplogroups R1b (where this haplogroup arose 16000 years ago), as well as R1a, later R1a1 (it also appeared there in the south of the Urals and the northern part of modern Kazakhstan 6000 years ago). And how about strictness if the term kazхand arises 80 years ago, and according to your words, harsh, strict words - "my maternal grandfather, Kazakh in 12 knees". Is this just another Svidomo hypernationalism? Be first of all attentive and careful to your words. By the way, I am always interested in how, what nationalities, nations, peoples, clans, or simply" zhuzes "the future Kazas called themselvesхand until 1936. I would be very grateful if you would be able to answer such a difficult question. If something is not clear from the science of DNA gynealogy, I can either answer or give links myself.
      PS: Do not use in scientific disputes suspiciously funded political sites such as Vika, BBC, "Svoboda", "Voice of America", etc. etc.
      1. +1
        July 31 2016
        The term "Kazakh" itself appeared only in 1936 on the territory of residence of the Cossacks, in the Cossack villages - hence the abbreviated Kazakstan, in 1936 (find out who exactly) was renamed to Kazakhstan


        But what about the Kazakh Khanate (1465-1847)?

        If my memory serves me, then until 1925 the Kazak Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (as part of the RSFSR) was called the Kyrgyz Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. And it was renamed not in honor of the Cossack villages, but in connection with the elimination of two centuries of confusion, when the Kyrgyz and Cossacks / Kazakhs were mistakenly declared one nation. Cossacks / Kazakhs had no relation to the Cossack estate.

        To rename the Kyrgyz SSR in 1925, Saren Seyfullin, the then chairman of the republican Council of People's Commissars, had a hand in his hand.
        1. -1
          July 31 2016
          Quote: By outsiders V.
          But what about the Kazakh Khanate (1465-1847)? ...
          Cossacks / Kazakhs had no relation to the Cossack estate.

          Cossacks - since their appearance, from the Middle Ages (XIIth century) had the most direct relation to the Cossack estate, though it appeared a little later. For example, the city of Alma-ata is a former Cossack village.
          As for the "Kazakh Khanate (1465-1847)" - this question is similar to the French masons: - After the shameful defeat of the French in the Napoleonic wars of 1812-1814, they began to shit on Russia thoroughly, not childishly, ask yourself. How many books were published that offend Russia and even confusing its history, for example, in 1917, the "Mongols" were invented. In 1836, for the first time in French, a book was published, a masterpiece of Russophobia, they say a translation from the Arabic language, although the Arabic-language original has not yet been found, otherwise they would immediately find a fake, this is how the mythical "Turkic Kaganate" is described there, etc. etc. historical fiction.
          As for the origin of the words "Kazakh" and Kazakhstan ", a lot of literature has already been released showing the origin of these words, for example, even the murdered Oles Buzina describes all this in detail.
          1. 0
            August 3 2016
            Quote: venaya
            mythical "Türkic Kaganate", etc., etc. historical fiction.

            Do not be so categorical. As far as my memory serves me, Gumilyov L.N. recalled not only the Turkic Kaganate, but also him in particular. And he was incomparably more trusted than anyone else.
            The origin of the word "Cossack", like the word "Kazakh", is now so blurred that it is almost impossible to find the truth. If we talk about the functions of the Cossacks, then in "immemorial times" they were performed well by nomadic peoples like the "black hoods", which they considered quite successful to coexist with the Slavs. It was quite mutually beneficial.
            living in Kazakhstan, it would be most interesting for a dream to find out the self-name of the Kazakhs as it was before, say, 15-16 centuries.
            The blood itself is also mixed without measure, from the Urals we wink
    3. 0
      July 31 2016
      Quote: Atygay
      Do you pretend to be a scientific version of the origin of the Russian people?

      I do not know exactly how a respected author. But his followers claim that they are all Russians. Both the ancestors of the Mongols are Russian, and the ancestors of the Brahmins are also Russians, who invaded India in very ancient times. So your ancestors are also Russian smile And they do not care that belonging to the people is determined by their native language and cultural values ​​and attitudes.
    4. +2
      July 31 2016
      Sample size?
      Well, the article is - popular. One must understand such things.
      If you are interested in sample size, they are listed in his serious scientific articles.
      For example, in the journal "Bulletin of the Academy of DNA Genealogy"

      Klyosov never said that R1a is Russian. He said that the Russians have 4 large haplogroups and there are still minor ones.

      You are outraged that his opponents attribute to him. Wikipedia is edited just by his opponents. Do not read it if you want to find out what he really writes - try to look at his articles from the original source.

      http://pereformat.ru/klyosov/
  41. 0
    July 31 2016
    Here is a map of the distribution of R1a in Europe.

    Nowadays, high frequencies of R1a are found in Poland (57.5% of the population), Ukraine (40 to 65%), European Russia (45 to 65%), Belarus (51%), Slovakia (42%), Latvia (40 %), Lithuania (38%), the Czech Republic (34%), Hungary (32%), Norway (27%), Austria (26%), Croatia (24%), north-east Germany (24%) Sweden (19%), and Romania (18%).
    1. +1
      August 1 2016
      The map is incomplete - the authors forgot to indicate that in the gene pool of the Jews of Israel, the haplogroup R1a1 (arias of the subclade 2500 years BC) is 8 percent, including in the tribe of Levi (kokhanim, clan of clergy) - 65 percent.

      Not only as the long arm of the Kremlin reached through the millennia to the holiest in Judaism laughing

      Other large haplogroups of the Jewish gene pool: J1 (Semitic Jews) - 15 percent, J2 (Semitic-Arabs) - 24 percent, E1b1 (Egyptians) - 22 percent, R1b1 (Celts) - 10 percent, 21N times,. In general, mestizos in the full sense of the word.

      http://pereformat.ru/2014/01/dna-genealogy-jews/
      1. +2
        August 1 2016
        "In general, mestizo in the full sense of the word." ////

        To us - the Jews - this is - on the drum drinks . Mixtures don't bother us
        on the contrary, they strengthen offspring. We look to a bright future
        not in the dark past.
  42. +1
    July 31 2016
    Oh Petka! Such a life will come! What is Vasily Ivanovich? ... -Vasily Ivanovich, and you for which International, for the 2nd, or for the 3rd? - Nuuu ... For which it is necessary, for that and I stand.

    So here we are arguing, who are you, for R1a or N1c1? And I think if only the person was good. And the decoding of DNA has not yet been completed, this process will take a long time and will bring us a lot of interesting information about our joint history, dear, you are my neighbors on planet Earth. From the side, at least the moon, look at everything that happens, it takes a horror. Why do some not live in peace?
  43. +2
    July 31 2016
    Here are the popular articles by Klyosov on the Reformat website.

    http://pereformat.ru/klyosov/
  44. +1
    July 31 2016
    All this is wonderful. I support professors at 100%. However, for the general public, to the children, who will bring this information? Teachers are enthusiasts? And they have a program. And in the USE there are other answers ... And the current academicians will not change anything, they have the same dissertations, it turns out to be pseudoscientific? So it turns out that all such research is only for a narrow circle of people! sad
  45. -1
    August 1 2016
    One German guy did not like his grandmother - a Jewess. Then he did not like gypsies, mental patients, communists, Slavs and others. Under this hatred was brought the scientific base in various sciences, history, archeology, medicine and more. Now Russian boys are appearing in Russia bringing the scientific base to the exclusive role of the Russian people in the history of mankind. Then there will be the next step - hatred of all opponents of this idea. Well, then - the pogroms of all non-Russians, then all not entirely Russian. Then the pogroms of Russians who would not agree with the party’s general line.

    Maybe enough to analyze the exclusivity of any people, at least on this site?
    1. +3
      August 1 2016
      You did not understand the meaning of the article.
      This is not about the exclusivity of the Russian people, about its historical roots.
      Historians say that the Slavs appeared suddenly from the air 15 centuries ago.
      Now it’s clear that their story stretches into the past for 5 000 years.
      That's all. What does your, excuse me, masturbation?
  46. +3
    August 1 2016
    I liked the article very much. Plus, of course. This is a powerful objective method and at the same time a tool and a weapon in an information war. Naturally, this is designed for adequate and sane people. Thanks to Anatoly Klyosov from a person who has at least three blood mixed in - this is what I know from my parents - but I have been and remain Russian all my life, I am proud of this and do not demand any advantages for myself. In the words of Disterweg - the great Austrian teacher - a man is my name, a German is my nickname.
  47. 0
    August 1 2016
    The DNA analysis technique and reliance on haplogroups are causing serious doubts.
    Something seems to be - that this is the same "duck" style "hypothesis" as AIDS and Einstein's theory of relativity; "works" only up to a certain limit, and beyond this limit - it pours!
    -------------
    I read somewhere that during the DNA analysis of one very isolated African tribe, haplogroups I1 were identified, confirming their belonging to the "true Aryans" ... the character is Nordic ... And these are small guys with pronounced negroid features - blacks, in short!
    ... Maybe the influence of genome mutations caused by non-biological factors is not taken into account? When - "neither in mother, nor in father, but in a passing fellow"? ... "jinxed ..."?
    1. 0
      August 1 2016
      The DNA analysis technique and reliance on haplogroups are causing serious doubts.
      Something seems to be - that this is the same "duck" style "hypothesis" as AIDS and Einstein's theory of relativity; "works" only up to a certain limit, and beyond this limit - it pours!


      I will not say anything about DNA analysis and AIDS, but that Einstein’s theory of relativity (By the way, which one? There are two of them - a special one, of which no one doubts now, and a general one, which is still being searched for evidence of.) - duck, because it works until a certain period - I will answer this way:

      Any physical theory has boundaries of its applicability, and these boundaries are not always known when creating a theory. Newtonian mechanics is true for not too small distances and times, not too great speeds and gravitational fields. These boundaries began to be understood only in the twentieth century. But that does not make Newtonian mechanics a duck.

      Threat. By the way, how do you understand your claim that AIDS works to a certain limit, and then spills out? :)
  48. -1
    August 1 2016
    Quote: Rt-12
    You did not understand the meaning of the article.
    This is not about the exclusivity of the Russian people, about its historical roots.
    Historians say that the Slavs appeared suddenly from the air 15 centuries ago.
    Now it’s clear that their story stretches into the past for 5 000 years.
    That's all. What does your, excuse me, masturbation?


    And what is so small, 5000 years old, take an example from Ukrainian ones ... sorry, scientists. Brick by brick, scientific discovery, scientific discovery, and here it is !!! The majestic building of indisputable evidence of the civilizational superiority of the Ukrainian people over small worthless tribes.

    Another example: Egypt is a country with a rich history, one of the most ancient civilizations, no one argues with this. The people have something to be proud of and something to exalt. The question is what are the first associations you have with the word "Egyptian"? Poor, uneducated, immigrant, possibly terrorist.

    After all, no one really explained why the author of the article interprets the well-known facts in this way? After all, these scientific facts can be beaten differently with a minus sign. Why should scientific articles be given a political color? Ukrops have proved their superiority by rewriting history and where is their country now? The Nazis measured the skull, and we will be measured by gallogroups? Are not all neighboring tribes and peoples mixed in the blood of Russians?
    1. +1
      August 1 2016
      And so small, 5000 years


      According to DNA genealogy, people of the R1a genus came to the Russian Plain 5 000 years ago.
      It was then that the archaeological culture of Cord Ceramics arose, and later Fatyanovskaya (3 000 years ago) came from it.
      An analysis of ancient DNA showed that the Fatyanov’s haplotypes are ancestral to modern Russians living in the same territories.
      That's why 5 and 000 years. Neither small nor large, as science dates.
      1. 0
        August 1 2016
        More precisely, the genus R1a1 of the Aryan subclade.

        People of a subclade of the genus R1a1, common to the Aryans and Iranians, came to Europe 10000 years ago.
        1. 0
          August 1 2016
          People of the genus R1a1 came to Europe 10000 years ago.


          Yes, R1a came to Europe 9-10 thousand years ago. And on the Russian plain they left about 5 thousand years ago.
          1. 0
            August 1 2016
            According to Anatoly Klesov, the arias (R1a1), when 5000 years came from the west to the Russian Plain, they immediately left for Altai, from there to Hindustan, then to Anatolia, then to the Balkans (3500 years ago), and only at the end of the ring road returned to the starting point of the route - Southern, Central and Eastern Europe.

            The Celts (R1b) came to the place of the Aryans in Western Europe from Africa, the Ugro-Finns (N1с) and the Scythians (R1a1 of another subclade) came to Eastern Europe from Asia. Plus European autohonts picts (I1 and I2), which did not go anywhere.

            After the return of the Aryans, Ugro-Finns (dominants), Arians and Picts formed the Baltic peoples, Arians (dominants), Ugro-Finns and Picts formed the Slavic peoples.
            With the exception of this rule, the Aryans, Turks (R1b) and Greeks (E3b1) formed a hodgepodge - the Bulgarians, who do not have a dominant haplogroup.
    2. 0
      August 2 2016
      The author tells about the migrations of great-peoples from 10,000 to 2000
      years ago. The study has nothing to do with cultural
      the state of the descendants of these great peoples now
  49. +1
    August 1 2016
    I also want to add. Let all Europeans dig into their genealogy and let them see who they have birth (by blood) just do not ... and what ethnic group they represent, and we ourselves will somehow figure out who we are!
  50. +1
    August 1 2016
    And here is the blood, we are talking about the history of the development of the Slavs from the 170 century BC to the present.

    The Great Russians gene pool contains 48 percent of the Aryan subclade of the haplogroup R1a1, and the Russian gene pool (including Little Russians and Belarusians) contains over 50 percent. In the gene pool of the remaining Slavs - from 60 (western) to 20 (southern).

    Arias are those described under that name in Sanskrit chronicles as those who came to the Hindustan peninsula from the north in the 38 century BC and went west after one or two centuries. Those. Arias are not the carriers of other R1a1 subclades who were Scythians, Sarmatians, and Persians or who contributed to the gene pool of the inhabitants of Asia Minor.

    The only carriers of the dominant Aryan genes are the Brahmins of India, the ruling clans of the Arabian Peninsula and the Slavs of Europe. We are the closest relatives.

    In addition, the non-Aryan origin of Western Europeans (Rb1b), including the Scandinavians and Germans (Rb1b + I), who throughout the twentieth century speculated on the concept of "Aryans", received material confirmation.

    The research of Anatoly Klyosov is a material (reflected in material media), and not a virtual history of us Slavs.

    Who does not like objective reality, can learn fantasy laughing
  51. +1
    August 1 2016
    Quote: aviamed90
    Quite distinct and clear answers from this professor.
    Just the facts.
    A purely scientific approach.

    And then they zadolbali in the media with their "theories" about the origin of Russians.

    Recently, the channel "History" showed an English "documentary" called "Vikings". So the authors in all seriousness broadcast that the cities of Staraya Ladoga, Veliky Novgorod, Moscow, Kiev, etc. founded by the Vikings.
    Well, is not it nonsense?
    Fantasy!

    Substitution of concepts today is a very fashionable activity.
    And not only in DNA genealogy.
    Very dangerous occupation!
    A false story can lead to such a state of things as it is now in Ukraine.

    And to the professor - success in work!

    And ours also need to make a documentary, where Professor Klesov will take a couple of such pseudo-theories and debunk them with beautiful computer graphics and performances.
  52. 0
    August 1 2016
    thesis - since our ancestors lived here, then this is our land by right of inheritance. then white Australians need to be driven out, and not only them
  53. +4
    August 1 2016
    I have been following the work of Anatoly Klyosov for a long time. Their value is undeniable, because the point is not in the political aspects, which they immediately began to argue about here. Anatoly applies (and in my opinion very successfully) natural scientific (and therefore objective) mechanisms for such a constantly falsified science as history.
    Even here they immediately wrote why 5000 years? The answer is because it was. Someone once wrote that sooner or later any science becomes accurate, perhaps Klesov will make history accurate.
  54. 0
    August 1 2016
    [quote=Albert1988][quote=Rt-12]
    Although from your comments it is clear that you do not understand at all)))) Neither in popgenetics nor in its other areas.[/quote]
    Yes, dear Albert, I do not understand as a professional. Well, I'm not a biologist or scientist. My knowledge of biology is a high school over 30 years ago. Then the factory, then the watchman, now here is the janitor.
    But I am interested in these things, I read articles on the Reformat. I liked them very much, for me - the arguments of A.A. Klesova - convincing.
    Of course, I can’t understand everything at 100%, and when I bring the arguments here, they look naive to the biologist professional. I myself understand this.
    My problem is the same as in Chapaev’s anecdote: I can feel with my gut that 0.5 + 0.5 will be 1 liter, but mathematically - no matter how!
    Albert! and you try to register at the Reformat and give your arguments there.
    I suspect that arguing with Klyosov will be completely different from arguing with me. lol
  55. +1
    August 1 2016
    Quote: Albert1988
    it is impossible to standardize the frequency of mutations in humans, because there are many physical, chemical and biological factors that change it in different ways in different cases

    this very “objectivity of localization” still needs to be proven! Because very often in such works there is one tiny assumption that the author did not notice, which destroys the whole harmonious picture

    Do you know that such a term as “Aryans” is not officially used in science? There are only terms like “common ancestor of the Indo-European family” or something like that.


    1. On the one hand, I am not a specialist, but, on the other hand, I have read many articles by Anatoly Klyosov. Before calculating the haplogroups extracted from bone remains, he checked his version of the average frequency of mutations in the human genome on a reference object - the Scottish MacDonald clan, for which there is written data on the life of each man in the clan for many centuries and bone remains.
    In addition, even a layman understands that the average mutation rate may fluctuate over a relatively short period of time (hundreds of years), but over thousands of years it clearly averages out.
    And yet, each dating of haplogroups by Klyosov necessarily contains an accuracy range in years, which takes into account all errors.
    This difference is about 5 percent, which is completely insignificant - it does not matter exactly when the Aryans entered India - either 4000 years ago, or 3800 years ago, since the process of transition of the tribes of the clan itself can drag on for 100 years.

    2. You, as a specialist, could turn to the articles and blogs of Klyosov himself for evidence.

    3. Firstly, back in Soviet times I read official articles by Soviet historians, where the term “Aryans” (in the sense of Indo-Europeans) appeared. Secondly, this term is historical, since it was stated in the Sanskrit chronicles. Thirdly, Klyosov uses it, among other reasons, to separate the historical Aryans (who correspond to the chronicles) from the Indo-Iranians (who do not correspond to the chronicles) within the Indo-Europeans.
    In science, many terms have not been used before - this is not an argument against the term “Aryans” (these are not “Aryans”). Any pioneer in science, including the discoverer of the historical ways of formation of the Slavic peoples, has every right to introduce new terms into circulation.
  56. +1
    August 1 2016
    Quote: voyaka uh
    We - the Jews - don't give a damn. Mixtures do not interfere with us, but on the contrary strengthen our offspring

    I agree.

    The only difference is that the only dominant haplogroup of the Slavs formed 16000 years ago, and the dominant mixture of Jewish haplogroups - 4000 years ago. The Slavs are four times older than the Jews.

    Well, it’s nice to know, damn it, that over the past 4000 years my relatives managed to reformat India, form the ruling clans of the Persian Gulf countries, take dominant positions in eastern and southern Europe, create their own country from the Baltic to the Pacific Ocean and from the Arctic Ocean to Black Sea, develop the world's largest nuclear potential and be the first to fly into space.

    PS By any chance, you will not be from the tribe of Levi?
  57. 0
    August 2 2016
    Quote: Operator
    Quote: voyaka uh
    We - the Jews - don't give a damn. Mixtures do not interfere with us, but on the contrary strengthen our offspring

    I agree.

    The only difference is that the only dominant haplogroup of the Slavs formed 16000 years ago, and the dominant mixture of Jewish haplogroups - 4000 years ago. The Slavs are four times older than the Jews.

    Well, it’s nice to know, damn it, that over the past 4000 years my relatives managed to reformat India, form the ruling clans of the Persian Gulf countries, take dominant positions in eastern and southern Europe...




    And you, your family tree too, have traced back 16000 years, so that you can be proud that your ancestors are Slavs. What if it turns out that your family comes from a Turkic group, or from a Semitic branch. How will you prove your purebred membership in the “only gallogroup of Slavs”.

    I, a Russian, am proud of the real victories of my people, and not those just made up.
    I am proud of Alexander Nevsky, Dmitry Donskoy, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great, although non-Russian by blood, but Russian in spirit. For Mikhailo Lomonosov, for Pushkin, for Lermontov, for Griboedov and for Gogol. I am glad that my ancestors created a Great Country, in which there were more than a hundred nationalities, and at the same time, the level of economy, education and industry of the outskirts was steadily rising. I am proud of the victories of the Russian, Russian and Soviet Warrior. I am equally proud of Alexander Suvorov, Mikhail Kutuzov and Barclay de Tolly, Pyotr Bagration, Bagramyan and Vatutin, Zhukov and Rokossovsky.
    I still don’t see any reason to be proud of any gallogroups, genes, or chemical research.
    The most ancient and therefore the most civilized, probably the most proud of this, are... drum roll... anthropoid apes!!!, if Darwin is not lying to us.
    1. 0
      August 2 2016
      1. To determine your family affiliation, there is absolutely no need to build a family tree; you just need to take a DNA test and you will be given a printout of your genome indicating all haplogroups and subclades.
      Everything is fine with my genome - the dominant haplogroup is R1a1 with a subclade that coincides with the absolute majority of Slavs, Brahmans, Kshatriyas and Sheikhs.

      2. No one argues that the Slavs occupy only two-thirds of the R1a1 clan community (the rest are Brahmans, Kshatriyas and Sheikhs). No one also disputes that the linguistic and cultural community of the Slavs includes representatives of other tribal communities, for example, Semites - children from marriages of Slavs with Arabs (J2). Or vice versa, the children of Slavic immigrants are part of the linguistic and cultural community of the Anglo-Saxons (R1b1).
      The descendants of Michael Barclay de Tolly (dominant haplogroup B1b1), Bagration and Bagramyan (a mixture of haplogroups without a dominant one) are also included in the linguistic and cultural community of the Slavs (specifically Russians).
      These examples do not cancel the rule - the core of the linguistic and cultural community of the Slavs (over 90 percent) is made up of carriers of the clan community, the material marker of which is the dominant haplogroup R1a1 with the corresponding subclade (48 percent or more).
      The rest is approximately in equal parts recessive haplogroups of the neighbors of the Slavs: N1c1 (Ugric-Finns), I1 and I2 (Picts), B1b1 (Celts), as well as smaller haplogroups of distant tribal communities J1 (Semites), G1 (Caucasians), E1 and E3 (Egyptians and Greeks), etc.

      3. You and I have different things to be proud of our ancestors:
      - I am proud of the size of the country left to us as a legacy (which has no analogues on Earth), the amount of natural resources and the achieved level of scientific, technical and military potential;
      - you are proud of the number of peoples living on its territory.
      At the same time, I am sure that this is the merit of the titular tribal community for our country. And the titular linguistic and cultural community is just a superstructure, derived from the generic one.
      In other words, the genetic line of the Aryans (Slavs, Brahmans, Kshatriyas and Sheikhs) had an objective evolutionary advantage over all other lines of Homo sapiens over the past 16000 years (size of distribution area, number of sources of resources). Our task is not to lose this advantage in the future.
      1. 0
        August 2 2016
        In addition, you are a bright representative of the Ivanovs who do not remember kinship:
        - with Vladimir, who baptized Rus';
        - Svyatoslav, who destroyed the threat to Rus' from Bulgaria and Khazaria;
        - Rurik, the first creator of a centralized state in Rus';
        - Gostomysl, who invited his grandson, the Western Slav Rurik, to rule the Eastern Slavs;
        - Kiem, Shchek and Khoriv, ​​the founders of the first capital of the Eastern Slavs;
        - unknown leaders of the Aryan tribes, who brought them out of Europe from under attack and led them without losses through the Urals, Altai, India, Iran to Anatolia back to Europe;
        - unknown leaders of the Aryan tribes who brought them from Siberia to Europe 10000 years ago.
  58. -1
    August 5 2016
    Oh, these fairy tales, oh, these storytellers! I'm tired of arguing over every line! Genetically, a Russian on the Y chromosome has a Finnish father and a Slavic mother. But this is all rude. Finno-Ugric tribes lived throughout the entire territory of Great Russia, Slavic tribes lived on the territory of western Ukraine and Belarus, and Turkic tribes lived on the territory of eastern Ukraine and to the east. Krivichi is a mixed Balto Slavic tribe. Along the Dnieper there were trading posts of the Scandinavian Vikings from the 5th century. In Crimea, the German tribe is Gothic. That's it. It’s unclear what’s not to like about the Norman theory. The Vikings did not create a state, nor did they exist in Scandinavia, they united the tribes, and by the 10th century, an ancient Russian state appeared on the basis of the Greek faith and the ancient Bulgarian language (the Bible was written in Church Slavonic). They expanded, digging into new territories. Residents of the north-west and north-east have Finno-Ugric ethnography, the south of Russia has Slavic ethnography, and the Tatars have Turkic ethnography. Then, over the course of 1500 years, everything and everyone got mixed up and a state appeared that sticks out like a bone in the throat of the entire “civilized” world. Since Russia is a world, it is a whole universe.
  59. -1
    August 5 2016
    And to write that R1A1 is a Russian halogroup is completely strange, then your real Russians are Poles. Then why is Russian the name of Swedes in the Finnish language (Russians are called Veneds by Finns and Swedes)? Yes, it was not for nothing that Baron Ungern von Sternberg said that the real Russians are the Baltic Germans!
  60. -1
    August 5 2016
    And to write that R1A1 is a Russian halogroup is completely strange, then your real Russians are Poles. Then why is Russian the name of Swedes in the Finnish language (Russians are called Veneds by Finns and Swedes)? Yes, it was not for nothing that Baron Ungern von Sternberg said that the real Russians are the Baltic Germans!
  61. 0
    August 18 2016
    Mr. Klesov’s conclusions are superficial and lack an evidence base. He somehow treats archeology, linguistics, and written sources with contempt. In addition, his answers lack specificity. So everything in general is not about anything. Personally, I cannot take this article seriously. Education is not allows. In addition to scientific and historical issues, there are also questions related to politics, to modernity. And here the author generally has a complete misunderstanding of the modern situation. Here he writes: When a hypothesis is presented as an immutable fact, then we are faced with an ideologized approach. And its goal is transparent: to instill among Russians the belief that they live on foreign soil. The Slavs are supposedly aliens here, and the territory does not rightfully belong to them. A question immediately arises in my mind: Who and when is introducing such a belief into the consciousness of Russians? What are their names? And in general, what political consequences might there be. And why should this bother me personally? Why doesn’t a Hungarian in Budapest worry that his ancestors came to his glorious country only in the 10th century, and an Arab in Morocco feels great despite the fact that he is not a native resident, but his ancestors came to 7th century. And the Jews. Joshua brought their tribe to the promised land and after the genocide of the local population, they themselves write in the Old Testament what they did to Jerechon, began to live there. Therefore, these who want to liberate our land from the Russian people must be told unambiguously. Forget your nonsense, otherwise Jericho and Sodom and Gomorrah will happen to you again. And there is no other way. This is the only way. There is no other way in history. And the professor is simply in trouble with terminology. He may be a great specialist in his field, but with history you still need to be more careful. He confuses everything. Why did he get the idea that the population of the Fatyanovo culture were ancient Russians and Slavs. Only because the haplogroup was R1a1. And what follows from this. That the culture, language, customs, religion of the Fatyanovo people was Slavic? Of course not. At that time there were no Slavs, no Germans, no Balts. The Russian people emerged in historical times, this is indisputable. And since we all live today, it is clear that we had ancestors in ancient times. But they were not they were not Russian people and Slavs. We don’t know what they called themselves. But in the grand scheme of things, it’s not that important. What’s important is that they existed. What’s important is that we, their descendants, created a powerful country. And our task is not to fade into the shadows of history.
  62. 0
    October 1 2018
    In general, I see how they are bending over backwards, trying to “prove” that it was not Russians who originally lived on the Russian Plain. They talk about the Swedes, the Finno-Ugrians, the ancient Germans - as long as they are not Russians.

    This is called "brainwashing". By washing away everything radical, primordial, by erasing genetic memory, if you like. "He who does not remember the past has no future."
    The question “why” is rhetorical for me.

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