Military Review

Once again to the issue of the “Fiumsky incident”: archival documents against ... “Wikipedia”! (part of 1)

To begin with, in the UK data from Wikipedia is accepted in court, that is, there you can refer to them as a source. In Russia, our attitude towards it is more restrained - “trust, but verify”. Why is this so, it is clear: Wikipedia has different sources of information, and one can be trusted, but not the other. Recently, visitors to the TOPWAR website have increasingly begun to pay attention to the source database of various materials, and rightly point out to their authors that it would be nice to ... reinforce their writings with links to archives and works of more reputable scholars who have authority in the scientific world, and in case of own "discoveries" also refer to historical documents introduced by them into scientific circulation. And rightly so, because “noodles on the ears” do not decorate anyone. Not the one who hangs her, nor the one who hangs her! Meanwhile, there are many people who, to put it mildly, use the gullibility of the vast majority of people to black letters on white paper in their own, and very unseemly, interests.

The armored cruiser "Rurik II" and the battleships "Glory" and "Tsesarevich" on the roadstead in Kronstadt.

So, having recently turned to Wikipedia, I was surprised to see the story about the so-called “Fiume incident” that was already there, fictional from beginning to end. On the TOPWAR pages, my material, exposing this duck of pseudo-patriots, has already been published. And there were links to archival materials. But ... as often happens: links in one place, and those who write to Wikipedia in another. Therefore, in order to prevent the reader of the site from becoming fraught with lies and further, I consider it necessary to give the floor to the authors of this story here, with references to their names - the country should know its “heroes” and ... the original text of documents from the report of Admiral Mankovsky, who commanded the Russian ships Fiume, and copies of the pages of the logbook of the battleship Tsesavrevich, its flagship. All the originals of these documents are in the archive of the Navy of St. Petersburg, and access to them is free. Well, it’s still necessary to start from Wikipedia - this is, so to speak, the “source”! We read ...

The Fiume incident is a conflict between the formations of the Austro-Hungarian (squadron) and the Russian (part of the detachment) imperial fleets.

In 1910, part of the Baltic ships fleet as part of the battleship "Tsesarevich", the cruisers "Rurik" and "Bogatyr" under the command of Rear Admiral N.S. Mankovsky, when entering the port of Fiume on the Adriatic Sea (now Rijeka), did not receive an answer to the salute produced, either from the shore or from the short-lived Austro-Hungarian squadron of Vice Admiral Montecuccoli. An obligatory ritual when calling warships at a foreign port or when meeting two squadrons belonging to the fleets of different countries was the exchange of the so-called salute of nations, consisting of 21 volleys; for its implementation on ships there were special salute guns. N.S. Mankovsky went to the Austro-Hungarian admiral for explanations about the violation of naval etiquette, but was not accepted by him (later an apology was given to the Russian admiral explaining what happened was an oversight). Admiral Mankovsky said that he would not release the squadron of Admiral Montecuccoli without receiving the required salute. Conscious of the significant superiority of the Austro-Hungarian squadron, three Russian ships were preparing to fight with two dozen Austrians, supported by a powerful fortress.

On the morning of September 2, 1910, at eight o'clock, when the flags were raised on the Russian ships, the salute was made. The “Tsesarevich”, “The Bogatyr” and “Rurik” teams were lined up in front, the orchestras played the Austrian anthem; in response, an anthem from the admiral ship of the Austro-Hungarian squadron was struck by the Russian anthem “God Save the Tsar!” - the Fiume incident was settled.
Khramchikhin A. "Proud St. Andrew's flag" // Russian life. - 2008. - No. 21.
Polyakov S.P. "Admiral" // Russian House. - 22 February 2009.

Now let us turn to a document containing not only information, but also the spirit of that era: the report of the head of the Baltic detachment, Admiral Mankovsky, from 3 of September 1910, No. XXUMX to the naval minister - RGA Navy. 1926 Foundation, 417 inventory, 1 case, 4002 pages - 194. The original is typed on a typewriter with all the delights of the then Russian language - yatyami, fity, etc. So I had to "translate" it into plain text, written according to the norms of the modern Russian language, but the changes were made to a minimum. So, read ...

"Report of Rear Admiral Mankovsky", p. 1.

I am grateful to Your Excellency about the circumstances of the swimming of the detachment entrusted to me in August of this month:
On the 1st of August, a detachment of the battleship Tsesarevich, Glory, the armored cruiser Rurik and the Bogatyr cruiser was on its way from Portsmouth to Algeria. Due to the malfunctioning of the boilers on the "Glory" the turn was 8 nodes. At 7 hours of the evening, when the Troop was in 35 miles from Gibraltar, "Glory" stalled the cars. The commander and the flagship mechanic, at the request of my arrival to the “Tsesarevich” with a report, during which it turned out that “Glory” cannot go alone at all. Therefore, I ordered the “Tsesarevich” to take her in tow, which was fulfilled by 1:00 am with complete calm and a small wave. The tug was filed as follows: “Glory” corroded the 3 bows of the rope, the end of which was taken by her 2 6-inch steel pearls, which were tied to the bollards in the “Tsarevich” in the battery deck. The course during towing was 7 nodes with 45 revolutions, which without a tug would give the “Tsarevich” 9 nodes.

The next day at 6 o'clock in the morning, the detachment entered Gibraltar Bay, from where English squadrons made up the battleships: Exmouth, Swiftsure, Triumpf u Russel, and the cruisers Lancacter and Bachante. Made a salute in 17 shots and received a response from "Exmouth", which was the flag of the full Admiral.

At 7 o'clock in the morning the Squad anchored on the roads of Gibraltar outside the pier. In 8 hours exchanged with the fortress salute in the 21 shot. Now, after anchoring the ship, the Russian Consul Mr. Porral and the English officer arrived with congratulations. In 10 hours along with the Commanders and the Flag - Captain, accompanied by the Consul, I made visits to the Commander and Port Commander. Upon my arrival and departure from the shore, I was saluted by the fortress, and an honor guard with a banner and music was lined up in front of the Commander's house. The commander of the port and the commander of the troops made me return visits in the first part of the day.

In the hours of the day at 2, the port tugboats entered the Glory into the harbor, where they put it in the northern part on the barrels with the bow and stern. In the morning, a commission of engineer-detachment mechanics, appointed by me under the chairmanship of Bogatyr Commander Captain First Rank PETROV, worked on Glory to determine the damage to the boilers and the Glory mechanisms. The preliminary work of the commission was completed only in the evening before the departure of the squad.

After visiting “Glory” and wishing the staff to join the Squad as soon as possible, at 7 hours of the evening I anchored with the “Tsarevich”, “Rurik” and “The Bogatyr” and went to Algeria 12 with a nodal course in the water line.

4 August at 8 one o'clock in the morning The detachment approached Algeria and, after exchanging a salute at 21, a shot with the fortress entered the harbor under the guidance of the deported pilots. Owing to the advance notice of the Consul from Algeria, the detachment's vessels were provided with places, and the tackle was put into the harbor without delay as follows: “Tsesarevich” - at the breezel in the middle of the harbor, “Rurik” was moored to the city, and “Bogatyr” to the opposite city of the pier. At 10 hours, accompanied by Vice Consul Delacroix, along with the Commanders and the Flag - Captain, I went to make visits to the Commander of the Port Counter - Admiral Mallet, Commander-in-Chief, General Baillond, and local civil authorities. Visits were given on the same day.

During the stay in Algeria, all vessels replenished their reserves of coal and water.

On August 8, the 2 of the German battleship Kurfurst Freidrih Welhelm and Weissnburg, the first under the flag of the German Counter Admiral von Koch, entered the harbor. These battleships, bought from Germany and Turkey, went to the Dardanelles for surrender to the Turkish Government, and they had a number of officers and teams - the Turks. In addition to these ships, the 2 coalition of the destroyer, built in Elbing at the Schihau plant for Turkey, marched under the German commercial flag went to Algeria.

10 August in 8 o'clock in the morning The detachment left the harbor of Algeria and began to destroy the deviation, after which, at 1 o'clock 10 minutes of the day, lined up in the wake column and gave 12 nodes a run. In 2 hour. 55 minutes, the man overboard teaching was performed. The first boat was launched from the “Tsarevich” in 3 minutes, and after 5 minutes, the boats “Rurik” and “Bogatyr” were simultaneously lowered. The boats were demanded for the "Tsesarevich", where the mail arrived in the morning. In 3 hours 30 minutes The squad gave the same move.
On the 2nd of August in 5, the hours of the evening passed to Bizerte. For experience, he made a wireless telegram to the Port Commander, to which he received a reply. At 9 one o'clock in the evening headed for the W - th tip of Sicily.

On August 2, 12-th of August, the beam of Palermo passed, and on 6, in the evening, they entered the Strait of Messina. As far as they managed to notice because of the darkness that had come soon, the houses, both in Messina and Reggio, were not rebuilt, and many ruins are visible, but new, consisting of one-story buildings of the same appearance, appeared around the old cities.

13 Augustus entered the Adriatic Sea about half a day, and 15 Augustus 2 hours 15 minutes of the night I anchored in Fiume road. At 7, the Consuls Saloratti and harbor - master arrived at o'clock in the morning, proposed to put the 2 Squad on the barrels, and the third to stand on its own anchor in line with the others, which was done that hour after 8 in the morning; "Rurik" had to become a depth of 35 sazhen. On the same day, I exchanged visits with the Governors of the land and sea, the Mayor and the Commander of the troops. I received return visits at the same time.

16-17 - August the ships were painted. 16 - th arrived on the detachment 15 deputation of the small name of the Prince of Montenegrin regiment composed of: its commander Colonel VEIL, Captain LEBEDEV and sergeant major GRISHAK. Put it on the cruiser "Rurik". On the same day, I and the officers visited the Whitehead plant and examined it with the kind assistance of its directors and accompanied by our mine inspector, Captain PSHENETSKOGO.

Bogatyr cruiser in 1910

17 - On August 8th, the cruiser "Bogatyr" accepted 200 tons of Cardiff coal, as there was a fear that he had not enough reserves before the secondary return to Fiim.

18 - on the morning of 7, according to the instructions received, I sent the flag to the harbor at the place indicated by the coastal authorities - Captain in civilian dress and lifeboats to meet the train with HIS IMPERATOR HIGHLY Grand Duke Nicholas NIOLAEVICH with the world, and to do this, he would be able to do this, and could not do this, not one way. by train from Russia, quite incognito to go to Montenegro on the squad.

In 7 hour. 20 minutes train approached the waterfront. Their IMPERATOR HISNITY Grand Duke NIKOLAI NIKOLAEVICH, Grand Duchess ANASTASIA NIKOLAEVNA, THEIR HIGHERNESS Prince Prince SERGEY GEORGIEVICH and Princess ELENA GEORGIEVNA, and the same time, there is also, there is any way that the real key that the real estate value of one person to change their name to), their color, as well as the value in the line’s white space, the value and distance the value of the value in the value of 10 In the retinue of THEIR IMPERATIVE HIGHLIGHTS arrived: General PARENSOV, Colonels ROSTOVTSEV and Count NIROD, Headquarters - Captain Baron WOLF, military doctor MALAMA and 6 man of female and male servants. These persons were placed on all ships of the detachment.

In 9, the hour.35 minutes were raised on the battleship "Tsarevich" the pennant of the Grand Duke, and their flag was transferred to the "Rurik". In 10 hours, for the carriage of all baggage, it anchored and went to destination in the port of Antiquaria at a speed of 12 nodes. In 12 hours of the night, this speed was increased to 14 nodes. At 2 at one o'clock in the morning, on the 19 of Augustus near Katsza Island, I was joined by the cruiser “Admiral Makarov”, who was scheduled to rendezvous on this island.

19 August in 8 hours of the morning on the orders of HIS IMPERIAL HIGHESTNESS replaced the pennant with the flag of the Grand Duke, to which all ships made a salute. At II o'clock 25 minutes, while referring to the shores of Montenegro, when setting up the right gangway on the “Tsesarevich” the sailor fell overboard, despite the fact that he was overboard with the end. Acting according to the regulations, the detachment stopped the cars in a cannon, the lifeboats were lowered and after 8 minutes the fallen was picked up by the whaleboat from the Bogatyr and brought to the Tsarevich. At II o'clock 55 minutes The squad picked up the boats and moved on. In 12 hour. Minutes of the day 55 entered the bay of Antiviri, where the Montenegrin Royal Yacht and Greek ships: battleships, “Kydra” and “Psara” and the destroyers “Uelos” and “Nike” were located. Having exchanged fixed salutes with the fortress and the Greek military ships, all of a sudden they anchored.

At 1 o'clock 30 minutes to “Tsarevich” arrived Korolevich Danilo, to whom HIS IMPERIAL HIGHNESS of the Grand Duke Nikolay Nikolayevich sent the order of St. Andrew the First-Called, granted by STATE EMPHERENT, to HIS IMPERIAL HIGHLANDS. At 1 o'clock 50 minutes, all the Highest Persons with their retinues left on a steam boat to the coast to the Palace of Korolevich Danilo, from where they later went by car to Cetinje. At 1 o'clock 55 minutes with a salute at 21 a shot from all ships of the Squad lowered the flag of the Grand Duke and transferred his flag from Rurik to Tsesarevich.

At 4, one o'clock in the afternoon handed over temporary command to the Captain I rank I Captain Lyubimov I, and with the rest of the Commanders and Headquarters we drove away to Cetinje. There, too, by train, and then by Skutariisky oucher, and then GG. officers, 8 people from each ship, and shipboard midshipmen 6 people sent to the celebrations from all 4-x vessels of the Detachment, and a joint company with a choir of music composed of people from the ships of the "Tsarevich", "Rurik" and "Bogatyr ".

Once again to the issue of the “Fiumsky incident”: archival documents against ... “Wikipedia”! (part of 1)

The armored cruiser “Rurik” in Toulon in 1910

In Cetinje, I, the commanders, and part of my headquarters were placed in separate rooms in the building of the War Ministry and in the Grand Hotel. The rest of G.G. officers received rooms for 2-4 people in the new building of the Ministry "Vladin Dom". The team is placed in the same place, by 8-12 people in the room. At all times during their stay in Cetinje, we had the following recollections: I, the Commanders and my headquarters — at the Hofmarshals table in the Royal Palace. The rest of G.G. officers at the Grandt Hotel, and the team in an Italian restaurant, rented at this time by the Government.

On 20, August, I, the Commanders and my Headquarters had the good fortune to introduce myself to HIS GREATNESS the King of Montenegro, NICHOLAS I, who granted us the order. Then made the necessary visits.

21 Augustus parade was held in the large hall of the “Vladin Doma”, during which Grand Prince NIKOLAY NIKOLAEVICH in the presence of the entire Royal Family, retinues and the Diplomatic Corps handed over to HIS GREATNESS to the King of MONTENEUR of Name on the EMPEROR OF THE EMPLOYER the Marshal of Marshal Our company and the company of the Montenegrins, and the choirs of the musicians of both companies participated in the parade. After the parade, a solemn laying of the new cathedral in the open air took place in the presence of the Supreme People and the masses of the people. After the laying of the Cathedral, all The officers were invited to the Palace, where HIS MAJESTY personally handed them medals in memory of the 50 summer anniversary of his Principle.

22 of August all the officers were invited to the palace to the royal dinner table. In the evening, a ball was held in the large hall of the “Vladina Doma”, which was attended by the King and Queen of Montenegro and all the highest personalities. On the same day, it was offered to me and the officers personally by HIS GREATNESS of the King to use the car, carriages and riding horses to ride around the neighborhood.

23-th in 8 am at the Cathedral of the relics of St. Peter and combat companion Admiral Senyavin, on the initiative of the detachment of officers and with the consent of the Grand Duke Nicholas was served by local clergy concelebrated 4-x arrived with a group of priests, thanksgiving service for the health Russian and Montenegrin Tsar's Houses and a brief memorial service for Admiral SENYAVIN and all Montenegrins and Russians killed in battle who fought for the independence of Montenegro 100 years ago. HIS GREATNESS and KINGDAYS of the Grand Duke Nikolay Nikolayevich were present at the service. In 9 hours in the military field outside the city in front of the barracks, in the presence of the King and all the Highest Specials, a parade of Montenegrin troops took place, which Prince Nikolay Nikolayevich received. After the parade, the commanders and officers, and the retinue of the Grand Duke, and our team were invited to the barracks, where snacks and champagne were served. Toasts were proclaimed, testifying to the friendly feelings of the peoples of Russian and Montenegrin. The ovations were enthusiastic on both sides and ended with the fact that our officers, at the “hurray” clicks, carried the hands of Korolevich PETRA to the Palace. In the Palace the officers were met by HIS GREATNESS, who graciously expressed their pleasure to them and offered them champagne.

In 12 hours in honor of the Russian officers held a ceremonial breakfast at the Grandt Hotel on behalf of the War Minister and the garrison. At 2 hours of the day, officers and midshipmen, escorted by the Minister of War, garrison officers and crowds of people with “live” and “hurray” clicks, drove away to Antiwari. Later, the Qarden party took place in the Royal Palace of Danilo, to which I, Commanders, Headquarters and officers were invited. In the evening we had dinner at the Hofmarshals' table at the Palace of Korolevich Danilo.

On August 24, at 7, our free company came back to Antivari in the morning as it had arrived. With the passage of the company past the Palace in the window stood HIS MAJESTY the King, and deigned to say goodbye to the team. At 10 in the morning I, the Commanders and my Headquarters bowed to HIS GREATNESS, and at 2 an hour. The 35 minutes of the day departed by car to Antiwari, where they arrived through 3 ½ / hour by sunset.

(to be continued)
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  1. Mentat
    Mentat April 19 2016 06: 33
    Wikipedia (more precisely, authors to whom the resource guide gives it a green light) loves to edit articles on a military topic in a certain direction.
    For example, an article about the Battle of Ardenne was edited repeatedly. Entire layers of factual material were removed from the article to present the role of the USSR as completely insignificant, as if the Allies had coped with the situation independently and brilliantly. Meanwhile, everything was a little different.
    1. fennekRUS
      fennekRUS April 19 2016 23: 33
      I don’t remember who said, but- "Wikipedia is written by" Wikipedians "(end of quote) A resource with free editing of materials that do not pass any authentication, except for banal pre-moderation, is no different from the same" censor "or" VKontakte ".
      Well, except that some kind of pseudo-scientific writing.
  2. Ozhogin Dmitry
    Ozhogin Dmitry April 19 2016 06: 54
    Wikipedia is already a hotbed of extremism. Things are called names beneficial to the West and our liberals.
    1. Imperialkolorad
      Imperialkolorad April 19 2016 07: 39
      Quote: Ozhogin Dmitry
      Wikipedia is already a hotbed of extremism. Things are called names beneficial to the West and our liberals.

      You read about the same Bandera on Wikipedia. Personally, I always send the forest in the discussion of opponents when they refer to this resource. If the conversation is about pestles, stamens, I still accept this argument, but dismiss it about geopolitics.
      1. EvgNik
        EvgNik April 19 2016 08: 23
        Quote: ImperialKolorad
        If the conversation is about pistil stamens

        Even such seemingly neutral questions, after Wikipedia, require rechecking in other sources.
    2. Amurets
      Amurets April 19 2016 07: 50
      Quote: Ozhogin Dmitry
      Wikipedia (more precisely, authors to whom the resource guide gives it a green light) loves to edit articles on a military topic in a certain direction.

      Wikipedia is convenient to use as a collection of links. Moreover, when you come to the link, you can get material that is fundamentally different from what is printed on Wikipedia.
  3. kitamo
    kitamo April 19 2016 07: 19
    Due to the malfunction of the boilers at Glory, the course was 8 points.

    correct one mistake, please ... * the move was 8 knots * not BALLS
    1. kalibr
      April 19 2016 07: 48
      I sent a message to the moderator. Will have to fix it. I cannot correct this text already. Sorry, I forgot to thank you first!
      1. bunta
        bunta April 19 2016 08: 48
        You can. Under the heading of the article there is a pen icon in the box. This is the inclusion of an editor.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  4. parusnik
    parusnik April 19 2016 07: 29
    Thank you, we are waiting for the continuation ...
    1. kalibr
      April 19 2016 10: 18
      It is already ready and will be released tomorrow, the day after tomorrow. There will be the most interesting.
  5. surrozh
    surrozh April 19 2016 08: 30
    Wikipedia pluralism, what's there. And for an English court, you can also process an article quickly, in a way that is beneficial for yourself.
  6. Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 April 19 2016 08: 39
    Great article, nice to read, very informative, looking forward to continue. As for Wikipedia, I never considered it an objective source of information.
  7. baudolino
    baudolino April 19 2016 09: 16
    With skillful marketing, you can get Coca-Cola as a healthy drink, St. Valentine's Day as the greatest holiday, and Wikipedia as a source of knowledge for all occasions.
  8. Serg65
    Serg65 April 19 2016 09: 19
    But you must admit, there was a good legend bully ... Having read about this incident for the first time, there was a twofold feeling ... pride in the Russian fleet and .... this is impossible in principle. Salute of nations for a naval sailor, it's like for a civilian "Hello, good afternoon." The strength of the fleet is tradition.
    1. kalibr
      April 19 2016 10: 09
      It's a good legend, but you can't live with legends, right? Moreover, it is unprofessional when the historian does not use what goes into his own hands, but relies on the OBS! That 1450 p. didn't have enough to pay for photocopies of documents? I would have thought a thousand times before making such "discoveries". Again, when I read about this, I also did not immediately go to the archive. Looked in Niva magazine and newspapers for these numbers. There is nothing anywhere, although the visit itself is described in detail. That's when my daughter wrote to the archives and found out everything. First, she wrote an article for the VOENNO-IISTORICHESKIY magazine - this is a solid scientific publication from the VAK list. There she came out, but passed without consequences. Therefore, I had to redo it and give it here. After all, today is the age of the Internet. And VO, although not a VAK publication, has a very solid audience.
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 April 19 2016 10: 24
        Quote: kalibr
        I would have thought a thousand times before making such "discoveries".

        smile Vyacheslav, my friend, there are a lot of such "discoveries", people are promoting themselves in different ways. Just yesterday, literary critic Irina Prokhorova made a "discovery" that it turns out that the USSR had an unwritten law on the reduction of the life of pensioners! Citizen Prokhorova can hardly be called a "pseudo-patriot"! Many people interpret history based on their own benefits, right?
        1. kalibr
          April 19 2016 12: 43
          Did she bring any evidence? In life, after all, everything happens - it happens that a girl dies with a girl, but lives with a widow, but this is only a rarity. So let him submit a note from the Central Committee of the CPSU ...
        2. kalibr
          April 19 2016 20: 35
          Here we must remember that a real PR man just cannot lie! He has nothing but words, but what are words? This is his reputation! A person who has oil rigs can afford it - his reputation will run out, oil will remain! And the PR man? Therefore, it’s not so stupid to be PR. This is the lot of C grade students who know PR by hearsay. Why I only when and about whom, and what I didn’t write about, but ... nobody ever sued! Because there is a source behind almost every word. Wouldn't there be? We would have skated on bones long ago! So benefit is benefit, but one should not forget about the sense of self-preservation, and about elementary decency too. Bad, they say, is the chicken that stains its own nest. And again ... the historian has the right to doubt, yes! But ... you are right, back it up with documents. First they, and only then write - I read it and I think so ... And not - "I haven't read it, but I think so!" It is nonsense!
      2. brn521
        brn521 April 19 2016 11: 39
        Quote: kalibr
        The legend is good, but you can't live with legends, right?

        All people live in legends. This is one of the keys to their effectiveness. Just because you can’t know everything, but you need to have some kind of messages that encourage action. The same army, for example, without legends and mythology simply cannot exist. Unless replace all soldiers with robots.
        It is another matter that, besides everything else, there should be an analytical department that has sufficient information to make adequate decisions.
    2. yehat
      yehat April 19 2016 12: 12
      sometimes it seems to me that the sailor and the fetishist are synonyms
      too many "traditions"
      1. pacific
        pacific April 19 2016 21: 59
        Quote: yehat
        sometimes it seems to me that the sailor and the fetishist are synonyms
        too many "traditions"

        Dear YEHAT,
        In your words you can see inappropriate irony. But I hope this is just your ignorance.
        First - about "fetishism" (by default - "fetishist" is the one who professes "fetishism"):
        Dictionary of Ozhegov
        FETISHISM, aa, m. 1. In primitive peoples: the cult of inanimate objects endowed with supernatural properties. 2. The worship of fetishes

        And this is TSB <>
        FETISHISM, 1) relig. worship of material objects - fetishes, to which supernatural properties are attributed. With the veneration of fetishes (pillars, stones, etc.) among the peoples of the West. African first met the Portuguese. sailors in the 15th century; the term "fetish" was introduced by goll. traveler V. Bossman in the beginning. 18th century

        2) Characteristic of commodity-capitalist. Society process of endowing the products of labor supernaturals. properties (self-growth of value, etc.), due to the reification of social relations and the personification of things.

        3) F. in medicine, sexual perversion, at Krom a sexual attraction is directed to decomp. items (e.g. shoes, stockings, lingerie) belonging to a loved one.
        The text of the TSB article was logically shortened by me, if you want to read it in full - there is a link.

        As you can see, the only mention of sailors in the context of fetishism is the Portuguese who are in the 15th century. the first to encounter this phenomenon.
        I do not want to assume which of the 3 interpretations of fetishism (according to TSB) you attribute to sailors.

        Yes, there are many traditions in the navy. More than land. But the reason is simple - the sailors are constantly (live and work) in an environment uncharacteristic of man. And what about the fact that people have plowed the seas for more than one millennium - the gills of no one else have grown from this.
        For comparison - a simple situation: got drunk in the insole and fell down somewhere along the road. On the shore, this is the police, colds, dirty clothes, a broken face and so on, and on board the ship this situation ends with a fall from the ramp (2-2,5 meters) or into the hold (from 2,5 to 20 meters), or even overboard. And instead of the police there will be a shark.
        And since the habitat is uncharacteristic for us (and during storms it is directly hostile), it means that life on board is strictly regulated. And for this there are only 2 ways: following the instructions and following the traditions. But if you need to teach instructions first, and then accustom yourself to follow them and / or control their implementation, then traditions do not require violent submission. They simply exist and act on our unconscious. And this greatly facilitates life on board the ship.
        Try to reflect on why this or that tradition exists in the navy. At the bottom you will always find a logical reason for its existence.

        PS Links "FETISHISM" in Wikipedia were not found request
        1. yehat
          yehat April 20 2016 12: 58
          and yet, I mean exactly the number of fundamentally cultivated differences from the "land", bordering on perversions.
          For example, terms. Well, a flask or guis sounds normal, but what for a bench call a can or a mop machine or a cook / cook coca?
          I understand that if all sorts of prevailing slangs, your own terms and traditions, well, you can use 20-30 words, but when everything is literally renamed, it is STRANGE. I used to consider this a perversion. And the persistent planting and retention of such traditions - fetishism.
      2. Serg65
        Serg65 April 20 2016 06: 33
        Quote: yehat
        sometimes it seems to me that the sailor and the fetishist are synonyms
        too many "traditions"

        what Seryozha, and you, I look, a little rascal lol . Even if you are sexually attracted by naval traditions, you will surely turn out to be a sailor bully
  9. NKVD
    NKVD April 19 2016 09: 31
    People mistakenly take Wikipedia almost for a scientific work written by scientists. However, everyone writes there oh laziness. No need to rely on this pseudoscientific site.
  10. pigkiller
    pigkiller April 19 2016 10: 23
    Wikiot - neologism (wiki + idiot)
  11. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer April 19 2016 11: 35
    Thank. Great story with reference to documents.
    Helps to feel the spirit of the era.
  12. yehat
    yehat April 19 2016 12: 15
    If the English court accepts the wiki, maybe write there that Scotland is a primordially Russian land, from where Kievan Rus was settled? And that "peer" is actually an abbreviation of the Old Slavic "I went to ... ER"?
  13. yehat
    yehat April 19 2016 12: 17
    photo Rurik has not seen this yet
    here you can see right away that he is a relative with the German heavy cruisers
    1. kalibr
      April 19 2016 12: 44
      With the English! Built in England!
    2. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx April 19 2016 12: 51
      Truth was built in England ...
    3. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx April 19 2016 12: 51
      Truth was built in England ...
  14. moskowit
    moskowit April 19 2016 18: 29
    Actually, I try not to use it in serious information. Repeatedly noticed significant errors. True, I did not focus attention on this, I can’t give examples ... Sometimes I make a reference to the encyclopedia in my comments, but only when I myself know for sure the veracity of the information and am completely confident in its objectivity.
    1. kalibr
      April 19 2016 20: 26
      It is impossible to go to extremes. Wikipedia is an excellent source for those who own the material, but cannot and do not want (and do not need it!) To keep everything in mind. Who knows the historiography of the problem and in addition can compare the texts in our Russian Wikipedia and the same English, in English. with materials of scientific articles and monographs. But all this requires TIME and certain professional skills, not to mention knowledge. A person without certain skills, even in our Russian archive, will not find anything out of habit, and will not even be able to say what he needs. So it is with Wikipedia. You need to know 50% of the answer from why you looked into it. And of course, look at the bibliography cited there - whether it deserves attention. Because at 100%, trusting her, as we see, is dangerous!
  15. cth; fyn
    cth; fyn April 19 2016 19: 57
    Destroyer nike? Just do it? )))
  16. Bashibuzuk
    Bashibuzuk April 19 2016 20: 44
    The remark is so interesting -
    "... sometimes it seems to me that a sailor and a fetishist are synonymous
    too many "traditions" .... "
    The fetishist and sailor are definitely not synonyms. But there really are a lot of traditions.
    For example - scrape your fingernail over the mast ... why not?
    Or whistle on the deck - and they can drown.
    Or, sit on a bollard.
    And the "salute of nations" ... sacred ... why 21 shots, by the way? The sailors do not answer, please ...
    And, where does Vicki ... and where does the -Really-? Why dig so deep?
    There is a beautiful legend.
    And there are entries in the logbook and the report of the squadron commander.
    These are TWO big differences.
    I repeat .... TWO ... BIG ... DIFFERENCES.
    On the legend, you can teach the younger generation.
    And on reports and records - cadets of VVMU.
    Anticipating objections and resentment about what they say, you need to tell the truth, the truth alone and the BLUE truth ....
    let's think about how we, here in Russia - well, really DO NOT LIKE - the practice of teaching sexual education of children of primary school and preschool age in Europe. There, in short.
    How we actively protest against the introduction of this in our mentality.
    And why, in fact, are protesting?
    Is this - the Naked Truth?
    Well, brothers .... continue the truth, cut the uterus?
    Or all the same we will find a compromise - to whom the truth, and to whom and education.
    Medical ethics ... accepted in Russia and abroad ... diverge greatly.
    Regarding frankness to the patient.
    Why would you?
    1. andj61
      andj61 April 19 2016 21: 23
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      And the "salute of nations" ... sacred ... why 21 shots, by the way? The sailors do not answer, please ...

      hi Never a sailor ..
      I’ll try to recall - if I’m not mistaken, in the 19th century frigates were (most often?) Forty-guns. They saluted with one side, and one shot - ending at the end. That's where it took root ... But, as I recall, very often, especially in the 17-18 centuries, a different number of shots were used for the salute of nations.
      1. Bashibuzuk
        Bashibuzuk April 19 2016 22: 31
        Affiget ... andj61 .... thanks.
        Never a sailor ... and such a good answer.
        Another number of shots is to characterize the meeting side. It was painted right away - here the full admiral commands, 17 shots ... here - yellow pants, two squats and KU ....
        but in general, it began still earlier, in the 17-18 centuries.
        The gun that fired first fired twice. Completion. Demonstrate team training.
        The most interesting ... the reason for the occurrence ... to defuse the guns before they have to be used!
        Show your "angelic face" instead of lowering the national flag.
        Interesting, right?
        At the same time and train pushkarnye team. In reload speed.
        What room is there for the cheaters, yes, no?
        And the quality of gunpowder would not hurt to check ... before a possible hassle.
        To cheer up sailors with a "blue bone" - with an acoustic blow to the ears.
        Traditions .... blinnnnnnnnn!
    2. pacific
      pacific April 19 2016 22: 10
      An interesting point of view.
      Of course, controversial. But I like it. good
    3. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn April 20 2016 05: 01
      Here I disagree. When the "younger" generation finds out that they were fed with lies and will be disappointed in many ways. There will be Solzhenitsyn and Rezuns from this generation, "destroyers" of myths and legends with their "truths", and real historical events will be buried under these "truths."
      1. kalibr
        April 20 2016 05: 43
        Yes, this is what we should be afraid of. Any reticence and "legend" can be inflated so that it does not seem a little. Hence nihilism and all that which should not be allowed in principle! No wonder Gorky wrote: LIE IS THE RELIGION OF SLAVES AND OWNERS. TRUTH IS THE GOD OF A FREE MAN "
    4. kalibr
      April 20 2016 05: 41
      Probably the fact that you should not confuse x ... with your finger. These are two purely different things, although sometimes they perform similar functions.