Military Review

Nomad and six-fingered

481



775 years ago, 9 on April 1241, a battle took place near the walls of the Silesian town of Lignitz (Legnica) between the Tatar-Mongols and the united Polish-German army, on whose side knights and mercenaries from many European lands, including England and France, fought. Despite the fact that Europeans, according to various sources, were one and a half to two times more than nomads, they suffered a crushing defeat, and their leader, Prince of Silesia, Heinrich the Pious Tatar Mongols captured and beheaded.

The Mongols who invaded Poland under the command of Khan Baidar initially had about 30 thousands, but before Lignitz they had three victorious battles with the Poles and captured a number of cities, which inevitably led to losses, so that, under Lignitz, they most likely could not put up more than 20 thousands of combat-ready warriors. Europeans were from 30 to 40 thousands, but some of them were poorly trained city and mining militia.

The battle began with a beautiful frontal attack of knightly cavalry. The central cavalry detachments of the Mongols, without waiting for a powerful blow of spears, fled. But it was only a deceptive maneuver, since the knights, after chasing, got into a "fire bag". Horse archers began firing from both their flanks, inflicting heavy losses on the enemy. And when the knights showered with arrows stopped the pursuit and began to retreat, the Mongols turned to 180 degrees on command and counterattacked. The heavily thinned troops of the Europeans, many of whom were injured, could not withstand this fight and died in full force.

After that, the defeat of the militia and rear units of the Polish-German army was only a matter of time. According to European chroniclers, the forces of the anti-Mongol coalition were exterminated almost without exception. The loss of the Mongols themselves remained unknown. Tatars planted the head of Heinrich the Pious with a spear and with joyful squeals showed the inhabitants of Lygnits who were hiding behind the stone walls.

However, they could not capture this well-fortified city and did not even dare to storm it. Having stood for two weeks under Lignitz, the nomads left for the south, to Hungary, where they joined the main forces of the Mongolian troops. After their departure, the townspeople buried the dead. In the chronicles it is written that the corpse of Prince Heinrich, decapitated and stripped naked, was identified by a rare genetic anomaly - polydecticia, he had six toes on his legs.

Despite the defeat, the Poles are proud of the battle at Lignits, believing that it was there that the invasion of the Asian hordes into Western Europe was stopped. And on the screen saver - the Polish knights in the battle of Legnica unsuccessfully trying to hide shields from arrows, flying from different sides.



The heavily armed Tatar-Mongolian warriors from the time of the Western campaign.



Episode of the Battle of Lignitska - a Mongol counterattack against the knights of the Teutonic Order.



Miniature from the German chronicle of the XV century with the image of the Mongols, who brought the head of Heinrich the Pious on a spear to Lignits. Apparently, the author of the picture not only himself never saw Asian nomads, but also did not communicate with those who saw them. The funny thing is that they have on the banner - the image of a man of a clearly European type and in the European crown.



Diagram of the initial phase of the Battle of Lignitska. Knight cavalry, attacking in the center, came under the crossfire of Mongolian horse archers.
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  1. tlauicol
    tlauicol April 16 2016 05: 46
    +21
    I beg you, do not show this German miniature to the Fomenkovites - they are still after the icon of the late 17th century. didn't let go laughing
    1. Portolan
      Portolan April 16 2016 07: 36
      +8
      The funny thing is that they have on the banner - an image of a man of clearly European appearance and in a European crown.


      funny forgers to look at the truth, and here's another image
      1. Portolan
        Portolan April 16 2016 07: 39
        +8
        and also where are the Mongols? probably those on the right with straight swords, in armor and with a banner with a crescent
        1. Portolan
          Portolan April 16 2016 07: 42
          +3
          and another image
          1. Spnsr
            Spnsr April 16 2016 15: 12
            +2
            Quote: Portolan
            and another image

            face
            for comparison!

            and here’s the picture from the article,
            Khazar recalls adnak's trident!
            1. Portolan
              Portolan April 16 2016 16: 54
              +5
              Quote: SpnSr
              and here’s the picture from the article,


              why these meaningless remake?
              1. Spnsr
                Spnsr April 16 2016 18: 29
                +1
                Quote: Portolan
                Quote: SpnSr
                and here’s the picture from the article,


                why these meaningless remake?

                I didn’t pay attention that I didn’t put “not” from the article
                what's the difference, the fact that the soldiers went into battle with the face of Christ
                Excuse me, tell me, who else went into battle with any face on the banner?
            2. Woldemar
              Woldemar 23 August 2018 17: 00
              0
              Quote: SpnSr
              Khazar recalls adnak's trident!

              what are the Khazars? -This is clearly the ancient Ukrainians, with a trident then)
        2. tlauicol
          tlauicol April 16 2016 08: 12
          +3
          no, with the crescent it’s Russian, with Alexander Nevsky at the head - guessed?
        3. kalibr
          kalibr April 16 2016 10: 02
          +5
          The crescent moon in European heraldry depicted the youngest son. The figure shows a "knight of one shield" with his coat of arms on a pennon and others with him (on the right), spears already lost. Mongols on the left. That's all.
          1. Portolan
            Portolan April 16 2016 12: 47
            -8
            Quote: kalibr
            The crescent moon in European heraldry represented the youngest son.


            prove it
            1. kalibr
              kalibr April 16 2016 14: 46
              +5
              Open the Slater Heraldry Edition and see ... 118 Page. There is a drawing of a page from a book by John Gillim. The first son is a tournament collar - lambel, crescent, star, lily. The second son is a crescent. So this is either the first or second son, if you follow the British heraldic tradition. In Boulogne, the tradition was this: the crescent is the second son. Moreover, it is noted that the lambel was the main one, and from 2 to 9 the son of certain rules for choosing a sign did not exist. That is, anyone from 2 to 9 could have a crescent!
              1. Portolan
                Portolan April 16 2016 16: 57
                -8
                Quote: kalibr
                Open the Slater Heraldry Edition and see


                nnda "open, see" for yourself here open and show
                1. kalibr
                  kalibr April 17 2016 16: 00
                  0
                  I’m not used to please people who are at the low level of intelligence development!
                  1. Portolan
                    Portolan April 18 2016 08: 14
                    -1
                    Quote: kalibr
                    I’m not used to please people who are at the low level of intelligence development!


                    it is you? not used to please? it wasn’t required of you, you had to explain, but you cannot do it and not because of your not desire, but because a lie will never be true
                    1. kalibr
                      kalibr April 18 2016 12: 47
                      0
                      Nice photo, isn't it? Did you find this on the website of my university? Read in the same place the list of my purely scientific works, maybe you will be interested in something. By the way, my last monograph "Samurai - Knights of Japan" has just received a grant from the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation. It was not so easy to do a job of this level ...
                      1. Portolan
                        Portolan April 18 2016 16: 29
                        -1
                        Quote: kalibr
                        ... By the way, my last monograph "Samurai - Knights of Japan"


                        the fact that you are serving someone else's story just follows from your appearance.
                      2. kalibr
                        kalibr April 18 2016 18: 21
                        0
                        And you are even more stupid than I thought. I serve it for our people so that they can consciously judge everything, "as the great Lenin bequeathed!"
              2. tomket
                tomket April 20 2016 00: 36
                0
                Quote: Portolan
                open it and show it yourself

                Poke your nose?))))
    2. tlauicol
      tlauicol April 16 2016 07: 45
      +4
      and here is another image yes "indisputable proof" of any Fomenkovite
      1. Portolan
        Portolan April 16 2016 07: 54
        +2
        Quote: Tlauicol
        here is another image of the "indisputable proof" of any Fomenkovite


        Why are you remaking sculpts? Or are these the sources by which you study history?
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol April 16 2016 07: 55
          +9
          this remake is older than the Life of the SR icon - from which you like to dance - and it does not bother you
          1. Portolan
            Portolan April 16 2016 07: 59
            -3
            Quote: Tlauicol
            this remake is older than the Life of the SR icon - from which you like to dance - and it does not bother you


            maybe or maybe not
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol April 16 2016 08: 09
              +13
              maybe Genghis Khan was not a Mongol, not Russian, but a Hindu? and conquered the world with firearms? call Fomenko! let him sprinkle a couple of volumes
              1. Portolan
                Portolan April 16 2016 08: 19
                -2
                Quote: Tlauicol
                maybe Genghis Khan was not a Mongol, not Russian, but a Hindu? and conquered the world with firearms? call Fomenko! let him sprinkle a couple of volumes


                and what is this "medieval Indian manuscript"? remake again?
              2. kalibr
                kalibr April 16 2016 10: 03
                +5
                This is a miniature of the 17 century, so why be surprised?
                1. Portolan
                  Portolan April 16 2016 12: 39
                  -1
                  Quote: kalibr
                  This is a miniature of the 17 century, so why be surprised?


                  maybe 18th? more precisely possible.
                2. KaPToC
                  KaPToC April 16 2016 14: 06
                  +3
                  Where is Genghis Khan, and where is the seventeenth century? All that is not sketched and not recorded by eyewitnesses is fiction.
                  1. tlauicol
                    tlauicol April 17 2016 06: 08
                    +4
                    hence the icon from which you are dancing Fomenkovtsy is a fiction. written during the lifetime of Peter 1. yes
                    and the words of Rashidaddin about the Karakorum are fiction - he has never been there.
                    1. KaPToC
                      KaPToC April 17 2016 07: 29
                      +2
                      By eyewitnesses, I meant all the same, temporary eyewitnesses, and not geographical, contemporaries of the event. This is not in defense of the Fomenko icon, about which I first hear.
              3. andj61
                andj61 April 16 2016 14: 37
                +5
                Quote: Tlauicol
                maybe Genghis Khan was not a Mongol, not Russian, but a Hindu? and conquered the world with firearms? call Fomenko! let him sprinkle a couple of volumes

                For some reason, only European sources claim that Genghis Khan was a Mongol. and even then this is "Mongol" from the word "megalion" - the greatest, etc. The Mongols themselves learned about Genghis Khan only in the 30s of the 20th century and from the Russians! bully
                So most likely, he was a Turk, and not a Mongol. But there were no Türks, especially in the 13th century, from the Slavs: the same Europeans. And about firearms - in the 13th century it was already used, in Russia, for example, by the end of the 13th century in the form of mattresses, and in Europe in some places a little earlier there were quite normal bronze guns.
                And here you don’t even have to be a supporter of Fomenko, but in ALL modern eras of Genghis Khan-Batuy, engravings are depicted by the Mongols in the form of Caucasians. And nowhere is there any mention of their narrow section of the eyes or yellow skin. And it is impossible to say that none of the authors of these Mongols saw ...
                1. marshes
                  marshes April 16 2016 14: 50
                  +1
                  Quote: andj61
                  So most likely he was a Turk, not a Mongol

                  The Buryats write that the Mongol belongs to the genus Borjigin, the Kazakhs that the Kazakh belongs to the genus Kiyat. You will understand the fig. Only after finding the grave and DNA analysis can you tell who he is.
                  And so from the wiki.
                  Bordzhigin (according to Rashid ad-Din, “blue-eyed” [1]; according to another version - from the words buri “wolf” and tagin “prince” [2]; Mong. Borzhigin) - the Mongolian clan (obok), the founders of which are called Bodonchara , the youngest son of Alan-goa, the ancestor of the Nirun Mongols. From the genus Borjigin subsequently stood out many well-known genera, such as Taijiut, Chonos, Barlas and others. The founder of the Kiyat clan was Khabul, the first Mongol khan, great-grandfather (elencheg) of Genghis Khan. The grandson of Habul Khan Yesugei-Bagatur founded the clan Kiyat-Borjigin. All descendants of Yesugei, including his son Genghis Khan, belong to the genus Kiyat-Borjigin.

                  There after birth ...
                  1. andj61
                    andj61 April 16 2016 15: 01
                    +2
                    Quote: marshes
                    There after birth ...

                    So if you do not read fiction, then Central Asia was conquered by the Mongols from the north and northwest, and not from the east. And how did they get there? And there are traces of the Mongols in China, as well as in Central Asia and on the Central Russian Plain. Well, and a raid "to the last sea." And there are no traces between China and Central Asia. So it is quite possible that the "Chinese" and "Central Asian" Mongols are different events of different conquests, having nothing to do with each other.
                    And the name of the leaders is Chingiz - shygiz - east in Kazakh!
                    Batu - batys - west in Kazakh!
                    And just Genghis Khan and Batu Khan - Khan of the East and Khan of the West! bully
                    And what the hell are the Mongols? what
                    1. marshes
                      marshes April 16 2016 15: 15
                      +1
                      Quote: andj61
                      Yes, and traces of the Mongols are in China, as well as Central Asia and the Central Russian Plain

                      What led up from above, the Barlas clan also entered that clan, by the way the clan of Tamerlane.
                      Everything will be clear after DNA analysis, we were forbidden, as I understand it, to carry out. Kazakhs are assembled people from different tribes and clans. So they are not the same type, there are Mongoloids and Europioids, it all depends on the clans.
                      Honestly, I can’t imagine what the Polovtsy and Kipchaks looked like at that time.
                      According to the Polovtsy, more than a clear view, Z.Kazakhstan is of the Adai clan and Nogai, close to the Russian Federation.
                      Take the southern Kazakhs Mongoloid-Europioids. Although what is wrong with the Mongoloids? Can't I understand? Are they all drawn to the Mari people? One wasn’t bad at the last century for it. And so G. Badakhshan, Tatjiki, Aryans, possibly Gypsies laughing
                    2. Cartalon
                      Cartalon April 16 2016 15: 33
                      0
                      What is the basis for the assertion of the conquest of Central Asia from the west?
                    3. tlauicol
                      tlauicol April 16 2016 16: 14
                      +4
                      in principle, Fomenko does not tend to distinguish between Mongolian and Turkic languages, suffixes and roots, he and Samara have Rome good
                2. Cartalon
                  Cartalon April 16 2016 15: 03
                  0
                  Well, spend here this modern engraving
                3. Spnsr
                  Spnsr April 16 2016 15: 23
                  +1
                  Quote: andj61
                  So most likely, he was a Turk, and not a Mongol. But there were no Türks, especially in the 13th century, from the Slavs: the same Europeans.

                  and more! back in the late 20th century, there was no concept of Turk, at least Turkic-speaking tribes taught in educational institutions, and this is just a Turkic-speaking person! and only then all those speaking Turkic were attributed to the Turks, although they probably wanted to belong to the Turks ?????
                4. zenion
                  zenion April 16 2016 17: 08
                  +4
                  He was a Jew. And his real name was Genghis Haim. And he was from a lost, above the knees, Jewish tribe. All the rest were below the knees.
              4. co-creator
                co-creator April 16 2016 15: 23
                -3
                Quote: Tlauicol
                maybe Genghis Khan was not a Mongol, not Russian, but a Hindu? and conquered the world with firearms? call Fomenko! let him sprinkle a couple of volumes

                Du.r.a.kam the law is not written. You call the stories and let them sprinkle the first embrace a thousand more why they cannot find Karakorum and the capital of the Golden Horde.

                Fomenko simply proved on his fingers that the story of linden and came up with his own and that's all. Why can historians with diplomas think up history, but cannot he?
                1. Cartalon
                  Cartalon April 16 2016 15: 30
                  +3
                  To whom did he prove that?
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator April 16 2016 16: 16
                    -3
                    Anyone who is critical of history and no matter what modern or ancient.
                2. tlauicol
                  tlauicol April 16 2016 16: 20
                  +6
                  I was in Karakoram (Kharkhorin) - do not tryndit.
                  And Fomenko is a fashionable rogue, that's all. The failed mathematician, Mavrodi from history
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator April 16 2016 16: 27
                    -3
                    Quote: Tlauicol
                    was in Karakorum (Kharkhorin) - not tryndit.

                    Well, how's the second Palmyra doing? Or didn’t they find anything besides the pots? No.
                    You tryndit. First read in the annals and all sorts of pieces of paper that they wrote about the Karakoram and compare with what you found.

                    Fomenko is a learned mathematician and businessman. He simply lowered the supposedly true story to the UniTaz and came up with his own making money on it. Moreover, many of his hypotheses may well be true. For example, about the Battle of Kulikovo.
                    If he did not start earning and writing all kinds of garbage, but continued to dig only about the Mongol era, then he would still be taken very seriously.
                    1. Aposlya
                      Aposlya April 16 2016 16: 45
                      -2
                      Quotation: blooded man
                      Well, how's the second Palmyra doing? Or didn’t they find anything besides the pots?

                      This Mongol Harahorum was actually rebuilt in the 20th century as a tourist attraction in the bare steppe. But Karakoram is translated from Turkic as Black Corum. Korums are rolling boulders in the mountains and are not suitable for the image of the Mongolian steppes.
                      Rashid Ad Din described the city of Karakorum. He writes that 22 rivers and small rivers flow near Karakorum, which again is in no way suitable for Mongolia. He also reports that Karakorum is 2 days away from Taraz! Where is Taraz and where is Mongolia ?! smile
                    2. co-creator
                      co-creator April 16 2016 17: 02
                      0
                      Quote: Aposlya
                      He also reports that Karakorum is 2 days away from Taraz! Where is Taraz and where is Mongolia ?!

                      So I do not understand laughing
                    3. tlauicol
                      tlauicol April 16 2016 17: 47
                      +3
                      so how did they find anything from Taraz? Maybe Samarkand?

                      I was in Karakoram. I saw mountains and rivers and shards there. And besides the shards, the ruins of palaces, moats, 13th century murals, a heating system
                    4. Aposlya
                      Aposlya April 16 2016 20: 53
                      -1
                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      so how did they find anything from Taraz? Maybe Samarkand?

                      I was in Karakoram. I saw mountains and rivers and shards there. And besides the shards, the ruins of palaces, moats, 13th century murals, a heating system


                      Have you been to the Mongol Karakorum and saw murals from the 13th century ?! !!! What is it like? If:

                      The decision to create a history museum of the capital of the Mongol Empire, Karakoram, which functions as a collection of unique memorabilia, research, storage, propaganda of history and culture related to the world heritage of the Orkhon River Valley, was made by the government together with the government of Japan in 2007. Initially, the idea of ​​creating such a museum arose simultaneously with the proposal to return Kharkhorin the status of the capital of the country


                      Those. Have you seen various ancient artifacts scattered from all places in the remake called Harahorin? hi
                      The one in Mongolia is not an ancient city, it is a modern remake, such as an open-air museum! laughing
                    5. tlauicol
                      tlauicol April 17 2016 06: 16
                      +2
                      You were there ? This "remake" stands on several cultural layers. There, before the Mongols, there were palaces of the 8-9th centuries and under the Mongols of the 13-14th centuries. But your mythical Kazakh Karakorum has evaporated or what?

                      and I was there in the late 90s hi
                    6. Aposlya
                      Aposlya April 18 2016 08: 12
                      -1
                      Do you even know that in those parts in the 8th century it was the lands of the Turkic Haganate? On the Orkhon River there are steles and burials of Turkic Khagans: http://bitig.org/show_big.php?fn=pictures/141.jpg i.e. there were no Mongols in the 8th century and could not exist!

                      It is the Turkic cultural layers that are there! And your hulk-Mongols came there only in the 16th century. But in the 13th century, these same Mongols were still called the Tungus and lived beyond the Khingan north of Manchuria. Until the 20th century, the territory of Mongolia and Inner Mongolia was called? Turkestan!
                      Well, as for the Karakoram - so far they have not found it, nor much else - and no one is looking for it, as if there are a lot of other things! But the chronicles give an unambiguous interpretation of the location, namely Semirechye.
                      Therefore, do not take the Mongolian remake for a real picture.
                    7. KaPToC
                      KaPToC April 18 2016 12: 21
                      +2
                      Quote: Aposlya
                      Do you even know that in those parts in the 8th century it was the lands of the Turkic Haganate?

                      In the eighth century, there were no Turkic khaganates in nature on our planet.
                    8. Aposlya
                      Aposlya April 19 2016 08: 03
                      0
                      Quote: KaPToC
                      In the eighth century, there were no Turkic khaganates in nature on our planet.


                      Your denial of history puts you on a par with sectarians from the Fomenko and Co camp ...
                      ... so for reference ...
                      The Turkic Kaganate, the Turkic Kaganate (Kekturk - heavenly Türks) is one of the largest ancient states in Asia in the history of mankind, created by the tribes of Türks (Türks) led by rulers from the Ashin clan. During the period of greatest expansion (the end of the 576th century), it controlled the territories of China (Manchuria), Mongolia, Altai, East Turkestan, West Turkestan (Central Asia), Kazakhstan and the North Caucasus. In addition, the tributaries of the Kaganate were Sasanian Iran, the Chinese states of Northern Zhou, Northern Qi from XNUMX and from the same year, the Turkic Kaganate wrested the North Caucasus and Crimea from Byzantium.
                    9. KaPToC
                      KaPToC April 19 2016 11: 57
                      +1
                      You did not speak correctly, the denial of history RISES me up one step ... with smart, educated people familiar with the concept of "critical thinking".
        2. andj61
          andj61 April 16 2016 22: 59
          +1
          Quote: Aposlya
          But Karakoram is translated from Turkic as Black Corum. Korums are rolling boulders in the mountains and are not suitable for the image of the Mongolian steppes.
          Rashid Ad Din described the city of Karakorum. He writes that 22 rivers and small rivers flow near Karakorum, which again is in no way suitable for Mongolia. He also reports that Karakorum is 2 days away from Taraz! Where is Taraz and where is Mongolia ?!

          Moreover, it is worth noting that the capital of the Mongol Empire has a clearly Turkic name, and by no means Mongolian! And this, apparently, is not so simple!
        3. Hurray
          Hurray April 17 2016 08: 10
          +2
          The Turkic language has the shortest words, therefore it is still very common throughout Eurasia. In the Middle Ages he dominated. Well, like Russian in the USSR and CMEA. Those. and the Yakut and Czech could understand each other in Russian. Linguistic affiliation is not a guarantee of ethnic kinship. Just because Kazakh friends write and speak Russian does not mean that they are Russian. After all, the original name of AlmaAty was Faithful, and the same Astana, Tselinograd. There are enough examples around the world.
    3. tlauicol
      tlauicol April 16 2016 16: 46
      +2
      Ah "made up my own story and made money with it"? Well, the spitting image of Mavrodi - bravo Fomenko, and boogaga to his adherents, who do not understand that they were bred like suckers.
      "Second Palmyra" was wiped off the face of the earth by the Chinese. If you're in the know, of course. It was restored much later, but no longer as a capital. So playing with facts and words, you can question the existence of Carthage. Try it - maybe you will also get the anti-award Full Paragraph, like your pseudo-scientific idol-bred
    4. co-creator
      co-creator April 16 2016 17: 10
      -2
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Bravo Fomenko, and the boogag to his followers who do not understand that they were bred as suckers.

      Adherents generally understand little. Those who believe in classical ancient history are the same adherents and they, too, were divorced as suckers.

      Quote: Tlauicol
      "Second Palmyra" was wiped off the face of the earth by the Chinese. If you're in the know, of course. Rebuilt much later, but no longer as a capital

      I don’t know this. Are you talking about Palmyra who write in Syria now?
    5. Cartalon
      Cartalon April 16 2016 18: 40
      +2
      Well, Carthage certainly wasn’t why you all the ancient history is a siege of a certain city by a certain army, and in order to disguise this event they came up with antiquity by writing the Iliad and the history of Herodotus, etc.
    6. co-creator
      co-creator April 16 2016 21: 01
      -4
      Quote: Cartalon
      Well, Carthage certainly wasn’t why you all the ancient history is a siege of a certain city by a certain army, and in order to disguise this event they came up with antiquity by writing the Iliad and the history of Herodotus, etc.

      I have no idea what was there. There is a city, then there was something.
      To consider one or two texts is a reality of nonsense. Herodotus is not in the original, but we don’t know how to rewrite it and how to supplement it.
  • andj61
    andj61 April 16 2016 22: 57
    -2
    Quote: Tlauicol
    Fomenko is a fashionable rogue, that's all. The failed mathematician, Mavrodi from history

    Wow - failed !. If all failed academicians were elected ...
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 59
      +1
      Quote: andj61
      Wow - failed !. If all failed academicians were elected ...


      Well, let’s say he was elected to the academicians for mathematical work, and not for his later work in the field of folk history ...
    2. andj61
      andj61 April 16 2016 23: 04
      +2
      Quote: Aposlya
      Quote: andj61
      Wow - failed !. If all failed academicians were elected ...


      Well, let’s say he was elected to the academicians for mathematical work, and not for his later work in the field of folk history ...

      tlahuikol said that he was a "failed mathematician", but in my opinion, very successful ... wink
    3. co-creator
      co-creator April 17 2016 02: 43
      0
      Quote: Aposlya
      creativity in the field of folk history ..

      Well, you surpassed him a long time ago.
  • Hurray
    Hurray April 17 2016 08: 17
    +2
    There are different "academies". Let friends leave history to historians. As I understand it here on military topics.
  • andj61
    andj61 April 16 2016 22: 55
    +1
    Quotation: blooded man
    Fomenko simply proved on his fingers that the story of linden and came up with his own and that's all. Why can historians with diplomas think up history, but cannot he?

    Fomenko showed with extremely simple examples that in history a lot of things were piled up from a lantern and did not correspond to reality. At the same time, he himself awarded even more! bully
    Moreover, in one book he himself contradicts what he writes in another book.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 17 2016 12: 44
      0
      Quote: andj61
      At the same time, he himself awarded even more!
      Moreover, in one book he himself contradicts what he writes in another book.

      Of course, he is a mathematician. Sat down. figured out how to make money and earned it.
  • Rivares
    Rivares April 16 2016 19: 28
    +1
    Quote: Tlauicol
    call Fomenko! let him sprinkle a couple of volumes

    Where are we alone Müllerites and Scaligerians.
  • KaPToC
    KaPToC April 16 2016 14: 04
    -1
    Do you Fomenkovtsy beloved dog killed and eaten?
  • Cro-Magnon
    Cro-Magnon April 16 2016 16: 44
    +3
    The only evidence of delirium about the Mongols is the found burial of the stocky, narrow-eyed and narrow-eyed Mongoloids who died in the battles! Only about crime and other ways of disposing of bodies do not compose! And Fomenko has nothing to do with it ... just when classical historians carry a nonsense and compose from a finger what is then presented as TRUE ... the Fomenki and Nosovskie pop up, which make money and popularity on this! And do not write about the fact that uneducated scribes and engravers painted something wrong or wrote something because blah blah blah did not read modern books! In those days, for a badly drawn coat of arms or an incorrectly written title, WAR broke out and negligent scribes and engravers were executed ... now the keyboard will endure everything ...
  • Portolan
    Portolan April 16 2016 07: 50
    +4
    Another image, in all the images of the Mongols that have come down to us, the Mongols are not similar to the Mongols, but look completely Europioids. What do historians say ?. And "historians" say that medieval artists were great inventors who painted relying on undeveloped imagination and their leaky memory, but the "real historians" put everything in its place, the Mongols - "Mongolia", which is in Asia, and the images are archaisms - what to take from them?
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol April 16 2016 09: 41
      +2
      "On ALL images of Mongols that have come down to us, Mongols are not Mongols like they are" - not ashamed to lie then? ay-yay!
      1. Portolan
        Portolan April 16 2016 12: 47
        -2
        Quote: Tlauicol
        on ALL images of Mongols that have come down to us, Mongols are not like Mongols "- is it not a shame to lie then? ay-yayay!


        no, not ashamed, truth is easy and pleasant to speak
        1. Cartalon
          Cartalon April 16 2016 12: 55
          +1
          Yeah, only if the Chinese painted for some reason are quite similar
          1. andj61
            andj61 April 16 2016 14: 47
            +1
            Quote: Cartalon
            Yeah, only if the Chinese painted for some reason are quite similar

            And the Chinese portrayed the Mongols, who call themselves Khalkha, their closest relatives - Kalmyks (Halmg) - these are really Mongoloids.
            And the "Mongols" of Genghis Khan-Batu - for some reason, are everywhere described and portrayed by their contemporaries as Caucasians. And the weapons are more consistent with the Slavic-Polovtsian (Kipchak), and not at all Mongolian.
            1. Cartalon
              Cartalon April 16 2016 15: 02
              0
              Well, in vain I argued that Subede was not the greatest commander, he finally could be a super-megawatch near Beijing, a Mongoloid and in Hungary a Europioid
            2. Aposlya
              Aposlya April 16 2016 16: 12
              +1
              Quote: andj61
              their closest relatives are Kalmyks (halmg) -

              The word Kalmyk comes from the Kazakh word KALMAK - the remainder. Kalmyks are the remnants of millions of Dzungars, who were first slaughtered in the Kazakh Khanate and Mogulistan, and then in China ...
              1. Yereke
                Yereke April 16 2016 18: 24
                0
                the Kazakhs then squeezed over them when the Han people began to cut them and let them through them giving them land beyond the Caspian, where there were nomadic lands of Kazakhs including Sarytau (Saratov) and Astyrthan
                1. Aposlya
                  Aposlya April 16 2016 19: 20
                  +1
                  Quote: Ereke
                  Kazakhs then squeezed over them, when the Han people began to cut them and let them through them giving them land beyond the Caspian


                  Before taking pity, the Kazakhs themselves first cut out the Dzungars ...
                  1. marshes
                    marshes April 16 2016 19: 34
                    -1
                    Quote: Aposlya
                    Before taking pity, the Kazakhs themselves first cut out the Dzungars ...

                    I read that the army was motley, along with Kalmaks and Buryats, Uyghurs, Khakasses, Altai, Shortians and other Turks.
                    Now, over time, where are the Kazakhs and where are they ....
                  2. Aposlya
                    Aposlya April 16 2016 19: 57
                    0
                    Quote: marshes
                    I read that the army was motley, along with Kalmaks and Buryats, Uyghurs, Khakasses, Altai, Shortians and other Turks.
                    Now, over time, where are the Kazakhs and where are they ....

                    The Dzhungars in the army were: Oirats, the present Altai people, the Uryanhayans - the current Tuvans, the Kyrgyz - the current Khakasses.
                    Earlier, Oirats and Tuvans lived here, in the territory of Southern Kazakhstan - in Mogulistan, but after they became citizens of the Dzungars, they became enemies of the Kazakhs ... So they did not become here ...
                  3. Taras_77.
                    Taras_77. April 16 2016 21: 42
                    +1
                    Where are the Kazakhs? Have you created a Great Khanate? Guys, you read your young historians less and do more of your internal affairs, from you I see "patriotism" rushing.
                  4. Aposlya
                    Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 45
                    -1
                    Quote: Taras_77.
                    Where are the Kazakhs? Have you created a Great Khanate? Guys, you read your young historians less and do more of your internal affairs, from you I see "patriotism" rushing.

                    I mean WHERE? Yes, all there in the same territory! Or didn’t you know that Kazakhstan exists? hi
                  5. co-creator
                    co-creator April 16 2016 21: 48
                    +2
                    Quote: Aposlya
                    I mean WHERE? Yes, all there in the same territory! Or didn’t you know that Kazakhstan exists?

                    It was his Bolsheviks who created. Kazshahstan you speak laughing
                  6. Aposlya
                    Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 32
                    +1
                    Quotation: blooded man
                    It was his Bolsheviks who created. Kazshahstan you speak


                    Well sealed up, with whom does not happen! winked
                    The Bolsheviks created the Kazakh Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, then the Kazakh SSR. Kazakhstan was not created ...

                    "he took Kazan, Astrakhan took, took Revel, did not take shpak" laughing
                  7. co-creator
                    co-creator April 17 2016 01: 51
                    +1
                    Quote: Aposlya

                    Well sealed up, with whom does not happen!

                    So I thought you got this new name laughing
                    Quote: Aposlya
                    The Bolsheviks created the Kazakh Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, then the Kazakh SSR. Kazakhstan was not created ...

                    It was the Bolsheviks who created Kazakhstan. The Bolsheviks themselves created all the states of Central Asia.
                  8. Aposlya
                    Aposlya April 17 2016 15: 19
                    0
                    Quotation: blooded man
                    It was the Bolsheviks who created Kazakhstan. The Bolsheviks themselves created all the states of Central Asia.

                    Like the RSFSR, like Ukraine and the other union republics ....
                2. Taras_77.
                  Taras_77. April 17 2016 10: 52
                  +1
                  That is, you do not recognize continuity?
            3. Taras_77.
              Taras_77. April 17 2016 10: 50
              0
              But why, I know, the only question is, does your state exist because you created it yourself and defended it, or did you acquire it on the ruins of another?
        2. Chisayna
          Chisayna April 16 2016 22: 58
          +1
          Yes, there are republics: Buryatia, Kalmykia, Khakassia, Tuva, Altai as part of Russia. The Uyghurs are in Xinjiang. Here, unlike the Uyghurs, these republics are not threatened by anything. Yes, they are not Muslims and volunteers did not join ISIS from them. .
        3. Aposlya
          Aposlya April 16 2016 23: 10
          0
          Quote: Chisain
          Yes, there are republics: Buryatia, Kalmykia, Khakassia, Tuva, Altai as part of Russia. The Uyghurs are in Xinjiang. Here, unlike the Uyghurs, these republics are not threatened by anything. Yes, they are not Muslims and volunteers did not join ISIS from them. .


          Who are not Muslims? Uigurs then? They are just the same Muslims and just the same in ISIS they are full ...
  • Hurray
    Hurray April 18 2016 13: 48
    0
    But after all, the Fomenkovites write that there were few Mongols, that is, the Dzungars, so a couple of thousand. Well, where is the logic. Once again, I propose to abandon these stupid disputes. Each science has its own reason.
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 19 2016 08: 05
      +1
      Quote: Hurray
      But after all, the Fomenkovites write that there were few Mongols, that is, the Dzungars, so a couple of thousand.

      Well, these sectarians generally deny a lot of things! They already have Batu and Alexander Nevsky! laughing
      The same Chinese chroniclers note that up to 7 million dzungars were destroyed in the massacre in Manjuria ...
  • Hurray
    Hurray April 18 2016 13: 49
    0
    But after all, the Fomenkovites write that there were few Mongols, that is, the Dzungars, so a couple of thousand. Well, where is the logic. Once again, I propose to abandon these stupid disputes. Each science has its own reason.
  • KaPToC
    KaPToC April 16 2016 14: 07
    0
    The images of the moguls, the Mongols are not similar to the Mongols, so they must be montered, re-montered and montaned.
  • andj61
    andj61 April 16 2016 14: 40
    +1
    Quote: Tlauicol
    "On ALL images of Mongols that have come down to us, Mongols are not Mongols like they are" - not ashamed to lie then? ay-yay!

    With a slight clarification - the Mongols of the era of Genghis Khan-Batu, who took part in the "Mongol-Tatar" invasion. Indeed, in all contemporary sources of that era, they are described-depicted as Caucasians.
  • Maegrom
    Maegrom April 16 2016 11: 22
    +1
    You do not speak for historians without reading. Study the structure and dynamics of nomadic invasions. The ethnic and composition of the troops changed greatly during the movement. There is no need to argue with a fictitious "scientific" opposition. It is better to read logical scientific or popular science works.
    1. Portolan
      Portolan April 16 2016 13: 12
      +1
      Quote: Maegrom
      You do not speak for historians. Explore the structure and dynamics of nomadic


      attach the list of literature to your thesis; I’ll look at your leisure.
    2. co-creator
      co-creator April 16 2016 15: 31
      -1
      Quote: Maegrom
      You do not speak for historians without reading. Study the structure and dynamics of nomadic invasions. The ethnic and composition of the troops changed greatly during the movement. There is no need to argue with a fictitious "scientific" opposition. It is better to read logical scientific or popular science works.

      Do not tell me, but about the era of Stalin who wrote more logically. Those who call him a bloody dictator or a great leader who killed only enemies?

      No need to write nonsense that's all. There can be no exception in history. They plundered nomadic peoples hundreds and hundreds of times. ravaged by different states, led into a slave. But never did they create an Empire or some kind of stable state.
      1. Aposlya
        Aposlya April 16 2016 16: 15
        +2
        Quotation: blooded man
        They plundered nomadic peoples hundreds and hundreds of times. ravaged by different states, led into a slave. But never did they create an Empire or some kind of stable state.

        The Hunnu Empire, Turkic Kaganates, Khazar Kaganate, Avar Kaganate, Oguz Kaganate, Kipchak Khanate, Naiman Khanate, Golden Horde - and these are not all states that have existed for a very long period of time ...
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 16 2016 16: 55
          -2
          What did these states leave behind? The fact that they were not talking. It was the Crimean Khanate, also a type of state. Only whom could they conquer then?
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya April 16 2016 17: 13
            +1
            Quotation: blooded man
            Only whom could they conquer then?

            but many drank the blood ...
            1. co-creator
              co-creator April 16 2016 18: 03
              +1
              Quote: Aposlya
              Quotation: blooded man
              Only whom could they conquer then?

              but many drank the blood ...

              Nobody argues with this. They even received "tribute" from more developed neighbors. Excellent warriors, lovers of fighting and seizing prey, but the state in our understanding they did not need.
              1. Aposlya
                Aposlya April 16 2016 19: 22
                +1
                Quotation: blooded man
                but the state, in our understanding, they did not need.


                Well, I wouldn't say that. Even Genghis Khan said that "it is impossible to rule the state while sitting on a horse" ...
                Again, take for example the Khazar Khaganate - he had a lot of cities like that. The same Kiev is the Khazar fortress of Samvatas from the 7th century A.D.
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator April 16 2016 20: 38
                  0
                  Quote: Aposlya
                  Even Genghis Khan said that "you will not be able to rule the state while riding a horse" ..

                  Well, you can say anything for him, especially when writing does not exist. Write, the paper will endure everything.
                  Quote: Aposlya
                  Again, take for example the Khazar Khaganate - he had a lot of cities like that. The same Kiev is the Khazar fortress of Samvatas from the 7th century A.D.

                  Where is this kaganate and these cities? Really big cities. Like all nomads, there is nothing.
                  Kiev is Kiev, and Samvatas is not Kiev.
                2. Aposlya
                  Aposlya April 16 2016 20: 56
                  0
                  Quotation: blooded man
                  Where is this kaganate and these cities? Really big cities. Like all nomads, there is nothing.
                  Kiev is Kiev, and Samvatas is not Kiev.

                  Kiev, judging by the excavations, was founded in the 7th century. In those days, it was the territory of the Khazar Kaganate. The medieval name of Kiev is the Samvatas fortress, which was recorded in the 10th century. Byzantine emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus in his treatise "On the Administration of the Empire" (about 948), translated from the Khazar language as "Upper Fortress", from the Turkic words sam- (high, upper) and bat- (strong). Renamed in honor of the founder, Khazar commander Kyyava, after his death. Arabs, by the way, in ancient times and still call Kiev - Qiyab.
                3. co-creator
                  co-creator April 16 2016 21: 31
                  -1
                  Quote: Aposlya
                  Kiev, judging by the excavations, was founded in the 7th century. In those days, it was the territory of the Khazar Khaganate.

                  In place of Odessa was the Turkish fortress of Khojaly, does this mean that Odessa was founded by the Turks? This can be done with all the major cities that stand on trade routes.
                  Quote: Aposlya
                  Arabs, by the way and in antiquity, are still called Kiev - Kiyab.

                  Wow . Probably not Kiyab, but Kuev laughing

                  Well, really what the fuck do you?
                4. Cartalon
                  Cartalon April 16 2016 21: 33
                  0
                  Where did you find this commander? Samvatas is mentioned only in Bagryanorodny and without any attachment to the Khazars
                5. Aposlya
                  Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 50
                  0
                  Quote: Cartalon
                  Where did you find this commander? Samvatas is mentioned only in Bagryanorodny and without any attachment to the Khazars


                  So nobody mentioned Kiev in the 10th century. Well, in the 7th century, these were the Khazar lands. Moreover, Samvatas was translated from the Khazar as "the upper fortress". Like twice two ...
                6. co-creator
                  co-creator April 17 2016 02: 29
                  0
                  Quote: Aposlya
                  Moreover, Samvatas was translated from the Khazar as "the upper fortress". Like two and two.

                  Where did the information come from. Discard the name of the book I read, right Kazakh fomenko exactly.
            2. Taras_77.
              Taras_77. April 16 2016 21: 58
              0
              laughing more interesting and interesting to read you.
        2. Taras_77.
          Taras_77. April 16 2016 21: 56
          0
          Probably you learned about Kiev from your new textbooks? Where is the proof? Or "there won't be winter"
        3. Aposlya
          Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 33
          0
          About Kiev, I refer again to Konstantin Porphyrogenitus, "Management of the Empire" ...
          As for winter - this is for the Kyrgyz! hi
        4. Taras_77.
          Taras_77. April 17 2016 10: 55
          0
          And what do we now have about one source of world history writing, although yes, judging by "your academicians" laughing
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 16 2016 21: 53
    0
    So this is what makes you so happy, you drank more blood, so you yourself have drowned in it, and now your destiny is only to remember the past and what you invented.
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 35
      0
      Quote: Taras_77.
      So this is what makes you so happy, you drank more blood, so you yourself have drowned in it, and now your destiny is only to remember the past and what you invented.


      Actually, that post was about the Crimean Khanate ... Well, on the fictitious account, this is to your native academics Fomenko and Nosovsky! They love suckers! laughing
      1. Taras_77.
        Taras_77. April 17 2016 10: 58
        0
        This is called double standards, when it’s convenient for you to speak for all the Türks, when not ..... And you’re their hypothesis, well, just a bone in the throat, how is it that you are not on the world stage laughing
  • Cro-Magnon
    Cro-Magnon April 16 2016 20: 37
    0
    And where are all these states! So far, there was something to rob from neighbors and tear from subjugated subjects, then as soon as the resources ran out ... one blow and there is no empire, khonath, khanate! And do not confuse the nomads who had conquered settled civilization and nomadic people from scratch who created their stable, long-lived state -in! There were almost no last!
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 02
      +1
      Quote: Cro-Magnon
      And where are all these states! So far, there was something to rob from neighbors and tear from subjugated subjects, then as soon as the resources ran out ... one blow and there is no empire, khonath, khanate! And do not confuse the nomads who had conquered settled civilization and nomadic people from scratch who created their stable, long-lived state -in! There were almost no last!


      Everything flows, everything changes. Once the Austrian Empire was, but it disappeared and was never nomadic. Once upon a time the Aztec Empire was and also disappeared ... There is nothing permanent - when the Russian Empire was and was gone! And after all, she was not nomadic either ?!
      Avar Kaganate lasted 3 centuries. The Khazar Kaganate lasted 3 centuries. The Golden Horde lasted 3 centuries.
      And now the Russian Empire from the 18th to the 20th century, i.e. 2 centuries ... And? !!!
      1. co-creator
        co-creator April 16 2016 21: 35
        +2
        Quote: Aposlya
        Everything flows, everything changes. Once the Austrian Empire was, but it disappeared and was never nomadic. Once upon a time the Aztec Empire was and also disappeared ... There is nothing permanent - when the Russian Empire was and was gone! And after all, she was not nomadic either ?!

        Comrade Kazakh, come to your senses, you are turning into Ukraine. Take a trip to Europe and see what remains of the AI, fly to Mexico and look there. Then go to Samarkand, Bukhara, and then go home and show me at least one city that the Kazakhs founded. What are you writing about.
        1. Aposlya
          Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 54
          0
          Quotation: blooded man
          Comrade Kazakh, come to your senses, you are turning into Ukraine. Take a trip to Europe and see what remains of the AI, fly to Mexico and look there. Then go to Samarkand, Bukhara, and then go home and show me at least one city that the Kazakhs founded. What are you writing about.

          Or maybe we won’t get personal, comrade don’t understand who? hi
          Kamrad, this is not the tone adopted here! If there is no desire or ability to conduct polemics, then fire ...

          And by the way, you should not blame you - a lover of Fominkovism, me in alternative! This will not even be funny! fellow
          1. marshes
            marshes April 16 2016 22: 06
            0
            Quote: Aposlya
            Or maybe we won’t get personal, comrade don’t understand who?

            Okay, tie it up, they won't understand. Even if the documents are shown in the original, they have their own truth. Although ours are not bad in the archives and libraries of the Vatican and other countries "walked" there are not bad Argumets. laughing
            I feel IST.FAC. Eurasian women. named after Gumelev.
          2. Aposlya
            Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 36
            +1
            Quote: marshes
            Although ours are not bad in the archives and libraries of the Vatican

            They have already made their way into the libraries and museums of Iran, and even in China, whole libraries have been excavated ....
          3. Taras_77.
            Taras_77. April 17 2016 11: 07
            0
            The fact that you have good scribes is not taken away. You can laugh without stopping. Ksati, here everything is mocking over the Independent Square, so it’s happened before, remember one thing about dna laughing Another question, and the Kyrgyz are not the Turks? There was a time for all Kazakhs wink
        2. co-creator
          co-creator April 17 2016 02: 19
          -1
          Quote: marshes
          But if you show the documents in the original, they have their own truth.

          Original document from the 13th century? Comrade you urgently treated. This even historians could not come up with.
        3. Aposlya
          Aposlya April 17 2016 15: 24
          +1
          And you do not know that in the same libraries of the Vatican, Iran, Greece and England there are a bunch of all possible annals having a much more ancient origin?
          So what you need is treated, at least from Fomenkovism! It’s time to grow up already!
      2. Taras_77.
        Taras_77. April 17 2016 11: 03
        -1
        Yeah, but as I understand it, you have only the original, and everywhere you have access, of course you’ve been dabbled before you, but you give out exact science. I don’t understand how the world developed without Kazakhstan. laughing The studio arguments
    2. co-creator
      co-creator April 17 2016 02: 18
      0
      Quote: Aposlya
      Kamrad, this is not the tone adopted here! If there is no desire or ability to conduct polemics, then fire ...

      For you comrade insult? laughing You simply forgot and I returned you to the sinful earth no more.

      Quote: Aposlya
      And by the way, you should not blame you - a lover of Fominkovism, me in alternative! This will not even be funny!

      Listen, I don’t think that the Russians conquered the world and there was no Horde Gold, etc. It turns out that you have Genghis Khan Kazakh and the conquest is not Mongol. and Kazakh in your words. wassat
      You have not just an alternative, but a Kazakh woman in the square.
    3. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 17 2016 15: 26
      -1
      Quotation: blooded man
      Listen, I don’t think that the Russians conquered the world and there was no Horde Gold, etc. It turns out that you have Genghis Khan Kazakh and the conquest is not Mongol. and Kazakh in your words.
      You have not just an alternative, but a Kazakh woman in the square.


      Fomenkivshchina, then you are promoting it, having labored on its "discoveries"! Which speaks only of the low level of your education.
      But what about the fact that the tribes participating in the campaigns of Genghis Khan-Batu Khan have exactly the Kazakh residence permit, so everyone who is at least a little interested in history knows this ... But you have everything started with this ...
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 16 2016 22: 03
    +1
    The Russian Empire is the heir to Russia, just like the USSR is the heir to this Empire and like the RF heir .... that I don’t see any heredity in you. Statehood in the 3 century as well as in the 20 century, this is not statehood, so it’s an accident .
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 38
      -1
      Quote: Taras_77.
      The Russian Empire is the heir to Russia, just like the USSR is the heir to this Empire and like the RF heir .... that I don’t see any heredity in you. Statehood in the 3 century as well as in the 20 century, this is not statehood, so it’s an accident .

      Kazakhstan is the heir to the Türkic Haganates, Kipchak Achism, the Golden Horde ...
      So if you don’t know the story, boy, then read books better ...
      1. co-creator
        co-creator April 17 2016 02: 23
        0
        Quote: Aposlya
        Kazakhstan is the heir to the Türkic Haganates, Kipchak Achism, the Golden Horde ...

        And still the inhabitants of Venus. No litter Venus was scored by Ukrainians, choose another planet.
        Quote: Aposlya
        So if you don’t know the story, boy, then read books better ...

        HERE YOU REALLY WAS TO READ THE HISTORY OF THE 17-19 CENTURIES. Just for development. If you are more than 40 years old, then it’s just tin what nationalism does to people.
      2. Taras_77.
        Taras_77. April 17 2016 11: 13
        +3
        Man, believe in Kazakhstan, most of them are, they all talk about greatness, only the world doesn’t manage to show it clearly, that's why they come up with it on the go, and since no one pays attention, they already tear the roof laughingBut no, they rebuilt the capital, but as they themselves say, "Kazakh without show-off is not Kazakh"
      3. Aposlya
        Aposlya April 17 2016 15: 29
        +1
        Quotation: blooded man
        HERE YOU REALLY WAS TO READ THE HISTORY OF THE 17-19 CENTURIES. Just for development. If you are more than 40 years old, then it’s just tin what nationalism does to people.


        I didn’t pass pigs with you so you poke me here!
        Well, you’ve already invented the nationalism of my friend! What does nationalism have to do with the campaigns of Batu or Genghis Khan, huh ?!
        What a manner, when it comes to other nations, not Russians, it’s nationalism right away! You are just like an eternally crying Jew - just what, so right away THIS IS ANTI-SEMITISM !!!
    2. Taras_77.
      Taras_77. April 17 2016 11: 09
      0
      Rude old man, I'm with you on you, albeit with a small letter. Do you read your books?
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 16 2016 21: 50
    +1
    Long period of time? My friend, all the states you listed, according to the official history and the history of your newly-minted historians, have left no clear traces, only small settlements and obscure references dated 18-19 centuries, everything else is just speculation, reinforced by your newly-minted statehood. Well, they could not leave the "empire" so few.
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 39
      0
      learn materiel ... Although I see you more Fomenko or Hinevich closer? fellow
      1. co-creator
        co-creator April 17 2016 02: 25
        +1
        So how many Kazakhs have built cities in what is now Kazakhstan? Do you want to list how many Russians founded and built?
        1. Taras_77.
          Taras_77. April 17 2016 11: 17
          0
          Note that we do not answer uncomfortable questions laughing Or maybe we went to the Vatican to seek confirmation of the founding of the Atlantean Turks
        2. Aposlya
          Aposlya April 17 2016 15: 32
          0
          A lot of! Or do you mean the Soviet period? I disappoint you - they were built not only by Russians, but by people from all over the Union, as in Russia the same ... By the way, here is what you wrote here, such as the Russians founded them and there is already cave nationalism! hi
          1. Taras_77.
            Taras_77. April 17 2016 17: 29
            +2
            Oh oh, the batyr was offended laughing What, do you not like getting your own face in your own style? You are Natsik in fact, you will not speak with you anymore, as soon as you cannot prove your case, you begin to accuse Russians of nationalism and Imperial ambitions, where do you live, in which city? I visit you often and I know what you are saying here and I read your press. You would be smarter to be, but wherever it has been given for centuries.
  • Amestigon
    Amestigon April 16 2016 16: 17
    +3
    Quotation: blooded man
    No need to write nonsense that's all. There can be no exception in history. They plundered nomadic peoples hundreds and hundreds of times. ravaged by different states, led into a slave. But never did they create an Empire or some kind of stable state.

    You're wrong. This has happened many times. Very often, the nomads or barbarians who enslaved the population, having destroyed the rulers themselves became rulers. At the same time, they gradually absorbed the local culture, local customs, and in the end, great states and even empires arose from this symbiosis. Such states were Media, Persia, Israel, ancient Greek policies, namely Athens, Sparta, Macedonia, such was the Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire. And many more. Including Russia.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 16 2016 16: 58
      -1
      Quote: Amestigon
      Very often, the nomads or barbarians who enslaved the population, having destroyed the rulers themselves became rulers

      Here are the keywords - YOU BECOME YOURSELF, or rather changed the elite. Whom the nomads changed in Russia. Well, if only there were prosecutors in Russia? Did not have . Like the princes themselves voluntarily agreed to serve on parole.
      1. Aposlya
        Aposlya April 16 2016 17: 13
        +2
        Quotation: blooded man
        Well, if only there were prosecutors in Russia?

        were kind of like Basques ...
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 16 2016 17: 52
          -1
          Quote: Aposlya
          were kind of like Basques ...

          The Baskaki are tribute collectors. It has long been written that they were collected by its Russian princes themselves. Whom they used for this story is silent.

          The procurator is the governor, he must sit in the conquered principality and monitor the prince. There is no other way. I knowingly wrote the prosecutor. This system went from Rome and there was only one exception in Russia. Very strange winked
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya April 16 2016 19: 23
            +1
            Quotation: blooded man
            It has long been written that it was collected by its Russian princes.

            A bit wrong. At first, the Baskaks were precisely Turkic (Tatar). And then they were replaced by Russian princes ...
            1. co-creator
              co-creator April 16 2016 20: 56
              0
              Quote: Aposlya
              A bit wrong. At first, the Baskaks were precisely Turkic (Tatar). And then they were replaced by Russian princes ...

              This is a theory. The fact that Russian princes collected them, and historians explain this to those. that they say the people rebelled against the Tatars. I must say right away, bullshit mare. Local taxes are always collected by the local, and the conquerors receive them already at collection points.
            2. Taras_77.
              Taras_77. April 16 2016 22: 07
              0
              I get the impression that you yourself were a Baskak and were lol so you all know well. Or maybe you should still listen to those who wrote in those days, and not to those who write to please the new rulers? Maybe you should not read between the lines, but read as it is written?
            3. co-creator
              co-creator April 17 2016 02: 51
              -1
              Quote: Taras_77.
              Maybe you should not read between the lines, but read as it is written?

              Well, it is written that when the Tatars gathered, the people rebelled, and this matter was transferred to the Russian princes, and they said this allowed the prince. collect tax and more for yourself. What was bothering him before is incomprehensible. Why Tatars themselves collect taxes is also unclear, it was always entrusted to the locals so that they themselves would not fall under distributions. Well, well known. that even in the Muscovite state Basques were mainly Tatars.

              Actually, even if at first the tribute / taxes were collected by the Tatars, nothing changes from this. There is no political control. The prince could collect again the same amount and buy a gun for example. prepare a rebellion. Why does he need a shortcut to reign.
      2. Taras_77.
        Taras_77. April 17 2016 17: 34
        +1
        You did not answer one question asked to you, only general phrases, or insults. Answer, if I am so sure which cities the Kazakhs built? Even in the Soviet period? And look how convenient it is, I remembered that there were other peoples in the USSR, I’m not ashamed to even stutter about it, that Russia took all the debt of the union and pays it back, financing you at the same time, you don’t say something about it, started singing.
    2. Amestigon
      Amestigon April 16 2016 17: 21
      +3
      Quotation: blooded man

      Here are the keywords - YOU BECOME YOURSELF, or rather changed the elite. Whom the nomads changed in Russia. Well, if only there were prosecutors in Russia? Did not have . Like the princes themselves voluntarily agreed to serve on parole.

      When I wrote about Russia, I did not mean nomads, but Varangian barbarians who turned into princes and boyars.
      And the prosecutors (which means managing directors), of course, were under the Mongols. For example, the Chinese Eliy Chutsayu. This is really a special case. He did not rule, but created a bureaucratic apparatus on all lands conquered by the Mongols. In other words, laid the foundations of statehood. And so were ulusniki.
      1. co-creator
        co-creator April 16 2016 17: 56
        0
        Quote: Amestigon
        and barbarian Varangians who turned into princes and boyars.

        This is a hypothesis. There is reason to believe that the Slavs from the Baltic and the barbarians and strangers for Russia could not be Varangians.

        Quote: Amestigon
        And the prosecutors (which means managing directors), of course, were under the Mongols.

        In which Russian principality? Where to read about it?
        Quote: Amestigon
        For example, the Chinese Eliy Chutsayu. This is really a special case. He did not rule, but created a bureaucratic apparatus on all lands conquered by the Mongols. In other words, laid the foundations of statehood

        You yourself understood what you wrote. How can you create a bureaucratic apparatus, and even a Chinese, if the Mongols did not even have a written language. Excuse me . but I don’t believe in fairy tales.
        1. Aposlya
          Aposlya April 16 2016 19: 29
          0
          Quotation: blooded man
          You yourself understood what you wrote. How can you create a bureaucratic apparatus, and even a Chinese, if the Mongols did not even have a written language. Excuse me . but I don’t believe in fairy tales.

          Arrived! The Türks had a written language back in those days when no Russia still existed. Have you heard about the Turkic runic writing? Stela Kultegin from the 8th century, for example
          Stela Kultegin

          Then the so-called Old Uigur letter appeared among the Turks:

          On the Old Uigur letter, by the way, the Turks wrote during Genghis Khan ...
          If you do not know about the writing of the Türks, then this does not mean that they did not have it ... hi
          1. marshes
            marshes April 16 2016 19: 56
            +1
            Quote: Aposlya

            Arrived! The Türks had a written language back in those days when no Russia still existed.

            Funny, accidentally wandered around, two years ago, where a photo with the Turkic letters on stone steles in the Dnepropetrovsk region of Ukraine.
            Another, it’s understandable stone. On the foundations of buildings in the forest-steppe zone the most ...
            I do not want to "point the finger" but many churches in the UK have such slabs for foundation.
          2. Aposlya
            Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 03
            +2
            Quote: marshes
            Funny, accidentally wandered around, two years ago, where a photo with the Turkic letters on stone steles in the Dnepropetrovsk region of Ukraine.
            Another, it’s understandable stone. On the foundations of buildings in the forest-steppe zone the most ...
            I do not want to "point the finger" but many churches in the UK have such slabs for foundation.

            So in the same regions of the Turkic states there was a lot!
          3. Taras_77.
            Taras_77. April 16 2016 22: 16
            0
            On the other hand, take a look at this and maybe you can get to .... And of course, everything came from the Türks laughing
      2. co-creator
        co-creator April 16 2016 20: 42
        -1
        It's about the Mongols. not the Turks.

        And what was instead of Russia? Babizyany?
      3. Aposlya
        Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 05
        0
        Quotation: blooded man
        It's about the Mongols. not the Turks.
        And what was instead of Russia? Babizyany?


        Those Mongols of Genghis Khan, these were the Mughal Turks, and not the ancestors of the modern Hulk Mongols or Kalmyks-Dzungars ...

        What happened? So read the history - Turkic Kaganate, Avar Kaganate, Khazar Kaganate, Bulgarian Kaganate.
      4. co-creator
        co-creator April 16 2016 21: 21
        +1
        Quote: Aposlya
        Those Mongols of Genghis Khan, these were the Mughal Turks, and not the ancestors of the modern Hulk Mongols or Kalmyks-Dzungars ...

        Modern history does not agree with you.
        Quote: Aposlya
        So read the history - Turkic Kaganate, Avar Kaganate, Khazar Kaganate, Bulgarian Kaganate.

        Well, I knew the Slavs were sitting in the trees.
      5. Aposlya
        Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 57
        0
        Quotation: blooded man
        Modern history does not agree with you.

        Well so your story from Fomenki generally disagree with anything!
        What can I say ... bully

        Quotation: blooded man
        Well, I knew the Slavs were sitting in the trees.

        The Slavs in the days of the Avar Haganate still lived in the Balkans and called them Wends ...
      6. co-creator
        co-creator April 17 2016 02: 41
        0
        Quote: Aposlya
        Well so your story from Fomenki generally disagree with anything!

        And here is Fomenko? Or are you Kazakh Fomenko?
        Quote: Aposlya
        The Balkans lived and called them Wends ..

        How it all starts.
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 16 2016 22: 19
    0
    laughing laughing laughing And then the Kazakhs had mercy and allowed others to exist there. You are not capable of this, nooooo
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 16 2016 22: 14
    -1
    So well, all these letters appeared in the 19 century? C'mon, why do you still live in yurts with such a great civilization? Why is it that now, after gaining independence, you all will not crawl out into world players? Is Russia interfering? Do not bring nonsense, everything is compared, if the Germans were always at the hearing, then after centuries, we hear about them, continue to continue?
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 43
    0
    Quote: Taras_77.
    So well, all these letters appeared in the 19th century?

    boy, learn the materiel again I say ... or at least the lessons ... a clear child of the exam ...

    Quote: Taras_77.
    C'mon, why do you still live in yurts with such a great civilization?


    What a wild fantasy! Are these yurts?
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 11: 30
    +1
    OOOOOOOO, I was waiting for this laughing View of Astana, gorgeous good Tell us only now whose engineers designed and built it all? I am sincerely glad for you that even in the 21 century you have modern cities. By the way, about the EG, I went through the story much earlier and taught me its excellent teacher, who taught me to soberly listen to another point of view and not to reject it only on the basis that I do not like it and affect my feelings, including national ones
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 17 2016 15: 36
    -1
    Are Russians really ?! Well, what a revelation! laughing
    You already shove your cave chauvinism wherever you can! The master plan of the new city on the left bank was developed by our architects in Almaty, by the way I know them well. And the Russians were definitely not there! bully
    So "cut Shura, cut"!
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 17: 53
    +1
    In particular, one of the architects who designed the Chupa Chups, or rather, it was her thesis, a very good friend of mine, a blue-eyed blonde laughing By the way, I want to ask everything, did you give the Japanese architect money for the Semipalatinsk bridge? You steal everything no worse than the Chinese laughingAlthough why be surprised
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 16 2016 23: 35
    0
    Quotation: blooded man
    This is a hypothesis. There is reason to believe that the Slavs from the Baltic and the barbarians and strangers for Russia could not be Varangians.

    Do you take the theory of satirist Zadornov seriously?
    Just go over the list of Slavic tribes - there are no Varangians there ..
    1. Taras_77.
      Taras_77. April 17 2016 11: 32
      0
      And here you are predictable laughing Now I want to send you to study books, you probably only studied everything about the Turks. Yes, actually, and why do you need world history, you are the navel of the earth laughing
  • tlauicol
    tlauicol April 16 2016 16: 26
    +2
    the state of Hunnu, the Khazar Khaganate - no, did not hear? Or did the Slavs inherit it again?
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 16 2016 16: 59
      +1
      What did they leave behind? Well, the Romans are different, for example, Palmyra, but what about these?
      1. Aposlya
        Aposlya April 16 2016 17: 14
        +1
        Quotation: blooded man
        What did they leave behind? Well, the Romans are different, for example, Palmyra, but what about these?

        Well, for example, the eldest son of Mamaia founded the city of Glinsk and the dynasty of the Glinsky princes. Mother of Ivan the Terrible was just Princess Glinsky ...
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 16 2016 17: 47
          -1
          How does this apply to these Khaganates.
          Here we take the Turk. Some nomads, others on earth. Some built cities and their own civilization, while others simply wandered around. Of course, I don’t want to offend the Kazakhs, but I'm sorry you could not conquer Samarkand, Bukhara, etc. You didn’t even strive for this, not because you were weak or stupid, but because you were nomads ... Yes, you appointed a tribute, included in your khanate which was purely on paper but no more. But from Samarkand there was a man like Timur.
          So is Russia. Well, there were Mamai, kaganates, but to what sense? People came from the forest and gave luleas.
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya April 16 2016 19: 37
            0
            Quotation: blooded man
            Here we take the Turk. Some nomads, others on earth.


            Ahaha ... You just do not understand this issue, therefore, all under one comb to cut!
            For example, take the Kazakh Kipchak tribe. They wandered like everyone else. But they also built cities. The same Otrar was a Kipchak city with its famous Otrar library, which in the East was placed higher than the rest.
            Nomad is just a way of managing - distant pastoralism, I hope you know the phrase? Someone roams, someone sits on the ground evenly.
            As for Timur, because he was from the Kazakh clan Barlas, if anything, the clan belongs to the Mughal Turks, like the Naimans, Dulats, Merkits, Kiyats, etc. Well, did we conquer Bukhara under Genghis Khan actually, or did you forget?
            Quotation: blooded man
            People came from the forest and gave luleas.

            This is when and where did the people from the forest come and give them luli? In fact, it was from the steppes that people came from Avars and ending with the Golden Horde and gave lyuli to the "forest" ... hi
            1. Cartalon
              Cartalon April 16 2016 19: 54
              0
              Are you sure that the Kipchaks are a Kazakh tribe? Can the people occupying the territory from the Danube to the Irtysh be called a flame? How correct is the use of the term Kazakh for Timur times. And many people gave lyuli to anyone, especially in their own description.
            2. Aposlya
              Aposlya April 16 2016 20: 14
              +1
              Quote: Cartalon
              Are you sure that the Kipchaks are a Kazakh tribe? Can the people occupying the territory from the Danube to the Irtysh be called a flame?


              Still sure! Kipchaks, are in the Middle Zhuz among the Kazakhs. Otrar, their ancient capital, is exactly the same in Kazakhstan. True, only the ruins remained there after Genghis Khan visited there ... Well, the fact that the Kipchaks once gouged the Pechenegs (Oghuz Turks) somewhere in the territory of modern Russia, so what? In a later period, the Kipchaks from Batu Khan even reached Europe. Well, other Kazakh tribes did the same thing - the whole army of Batu Khan (Batu) consisted of them ...

              Quote: Cartalon
              How correct is the use of the term Kazakh for Timur times.


              Very correct. Persians used the term KAZAK in the 10th century to refer to the Kipchak and Kangly tribes, i.e. the present Kazakh tribes, which together with individual clans we have as many as 100 ... The Kangly tribe was first mentioned in the 3rd century BC. For example, it was in the Khazar Khaganate. The Byzantines called them Kangar and translated them as Men from the Kang tribe (the word Ar, Er, Er, Er, Ur - is translated from various Turkic dialects as a warrior husband). Also known as Kangyui. They were also called the bloody tribe, although in principle it is clear why - the word KAN is translated as BLOOD. In certain periods of the region of Samarkand, Bukhara, Khorezm were subordinate to them. Although Rashid Ad Din suggested that the Kangly is a translation from the word “kangly”, he wrote here that he doubts the correctness of the translation. Here is what he wrote:

              At the same time as Oguz fought with his father, uncles, brothers and nephews, raided and robbed their countries, then from all the people, all those of his relatives who joined him and became at the same time, for his own reason carts made the mind and loaded on them [everything] the loot, others loaded the prey on animals. [The cart is called “Kangly” in Turkic], for this reason they were also named after the Kangly. All branches of the kangla [descend] from their offspring. However, Allah knows better!
            3. Cartalon
              Cartalon April 16 2016 20: 45
              0
              I'm afraid you are extremely biased in this matter, the use of the term Kazakh does not mean that the Kazakh people already existed, since it does not meet the descriptions, but it would have to be, the Kangles seem to be the ancestors of various Guz and Pechenegs, including, and Kipchaks do not know if they are from the Dinlins, but to consider them simply by some kind of flame at the edge, if they have lost their value does not mean that it didn’t exist, from the Pechenegs too the Gagauzians remained.
            4. Aposlya
              Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 19
              -1
              Quote: Cartalon
              I'm afraid you are extremely biased in this matter, the use of the term Kazakh does not mean that the Kazakh people already existed, since it does not meet the descriptions, but it would have to be, the Kangles seem to be the ancestors of various Guz and Pechenegs, including, and Kipchaks do not know if they are from the Dinlins, but to consider them simply by some kind of flame at the edge, if they have lost their value does not mean that it didn’t exist, from the Pechenegs too the Gagauzians remained.


              These are all TURKS. Only the Chinese chroniclers, i.e. Huns, ancestors of the Turks. The word GUN as a root remained with the Kazakh tribe Argyn, which was called Argun in the 10th century. By the way, the first name of the city of Taraz was just the same Argun and was the first capital of the Ephthalites - the White Huns. The word Argun is a compound word formed from the words of Aru Hun, in some variations of Ara Hun, where the word Aru is pure, white, brilliant, Hun is a sunny person. The macaws are distant.

              Oguzes is the political name of the Turkic tribes "Og uz" - union. Those. that Kok Türks, that Oguzes, these are all the same Türks.
              For example, we have the Bersh tribe, but it once was in the Kipchaks. After all, the Kipchaks used to be not ONE tribe, but several. The main tribes of, say, the Confederation of Kipchaks were Katai Kipchak, Kulan Kipchak, Sary Kipchak and Kara Kipchak. After the campaigns of Batu Khan, only Kara and Katai-Kipchaks remained. Sary and Kulan were destroyed, part was washed away to King Bel in Hungary.

              Not only the Gagauz, but also the Crimean Tatars, for example, remained from the Pechenegs. And also the Pechenegs seem to have given the very name "Russian".
              "The Rus," said Abdul-Feda, "are a people of Turkish nationality, which in the east borders on the Guzes, a people of the same origin." Guzes are Oguzes, i.e. Pechenegs in the old way, although the word Pecheneg itself is a Russian tracing paper from the Badjanak Oguz tribal association, the Arabs called them Pachanak. Those. the Arab directly writes that the Rus are the very Pechenegs. They localize them in Crimea.
            5. Cartalon
              Cartalon April 16 2016 21: 42
              -1
              Yes Rus Turks with Germanic names and preferring to travel only on water
            6. Aposlya
              Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 06
              +1
              Quote: Cartalon
              Yes Rus Turks with Germanic names and preferring to travel only on water

              Türks move on what is convenient for them in a given area. In the North, for example, on deer (Yakuts, Tuvans), in the deserts on camels, in the steppes on horses. Well, what do they use on rivers or the sea, what do you think? Well, not on the birds?
              Well, as for the names - so the names are spelled as the writer comprehends. A German or Latin or Greek will spell the same name in completely different ways. Look at the same Oleg as they called in non-Russian sources? Helgom! Like a Slavic name? Like Olga became Helga. And Igor? Ingor. Those. each cuts as he pleases. Or say the names Sveneld and Asmud dofiga are just the same Russian?
              But these are just names. But what made you think that the Rus had precisely German names is not entirely clear to me. Arabs did not write the names of those Rus ...
            7. Cartalon
              Cartalon April 16 2016 22: 19
              0
              We are from a Russian family - Karl, Inegerd, Farlav, Returned, Rulav, Guda, Ruald, Karn, Frelov, Ruar, Aktev, Truan, Lidul, Fost, Stemid ..
            8. Aposlya
              Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 44
              0
              Quote: Cartalon
              We are from a Russian family - Karl, Inegerd, Farlav, Returned, Rulav, Guda, Ruald, Karn, Frelov, Ruar, Aktev, Truan, Lidul, Fost, Stemid ..

              ..and which of these names is Russian then? winked
            9. Cartalon
              Cartalon April 16 2016 23: 31
              0
              So what is written in the PVL and wrote, the earliest names are 911
            10. Aposlya
              Aposlya April 16 2016 23: 51
              0
              Well, at the expense of the PVL - many doubts gnaw me ... Back in the 18th century, Musin-Pushkin was accused of falsifying them. By the way, he published them for the first time ...
              Yes, and you do not find the names are not Slavic, as the name of Karl does not fight with the same Svyatoslav ...
            11. Cartalon
              Cartalon April 17 2016 00: 05
              0
              All absolutely all sources separate Rusov from the Slavs, Bagryanorodny gives the names of the rapids Slavic and Russian clearly German-speaking, My opinion of Rusa was initially a group of Scandinavians, which became the ruling elite among the Slavs rather quickly assimilated, the same process as on the Danube with the Bulgarians
            12. Aposlya
              Aposlya April 17 2016 00: 15
              0
              but judging by the Arabic records, no, not the Scandinavians of Rus ...
            13. Taras_77.
              Taras_77. April 17 2016 11: 38
              -1
              Again, all these knowledgeable Arabs, you would at least once referred to the Vatican, right, suspiciously already winked Strange, although sorry no, you have an approach, compare the name of Karl with the name of Svyatoslav
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 16 2016 22: 08
    0
    Your argument resembles the Jordan, he was complaining about the fact that the Greeks and Romans loved archaisms and called them originally ready by the Scythians, attributed to the Goths a victory over Darius. Obviously, the Kazakhs are a hodgepodge from different tribes and clans, which all sorts of khans got with their hordes and wanted to live freely, hence the name, but no, you need to ascribe the whole history of Eurasia to yourself.
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 46
    0
    Quote: Cartalon
    Obviously, Kazakhs are a hodgepodge from different tribes and clans

    It is natural that the tribes and clans are DIFFERENT! Do they even have different names, or didn’t you notice it? It's just that these are all Turkic tribes originating from the Huns ...
  • Cro-Magnon
    Cro-Magnon April 16 2016 21: 13
    +3
    Here I read you and you have a Kazakh translation for any Turkic word, and any people descended from the Kazakhs, because you have a tribe, a clan of the same name ...! And it never occurred to you that the Kazakhs are the same national team as the Russians ... and that they did not come from you, but you from the remnants of THEIR PEOPLES who roamed and lived settled on this land ?! The Great Steppe, the Wild Field ... what peoples did not pass here, who only lived, who only roamed ... some replaced others, mixed, became related, migrated again, were conquered and assimilated by new newcomers ... I myself am from Kazakhstan ... and I know how much Kazakhs differ even outwardly from each other ... it is more difficult to distinguish a Russian from a Tatar or an Udmurt ... Do not be like the "great ukram" of our common ancestors! ;-)
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 12
    +1
    Quote: Cro-Magnon
    Here I read you, and for any word Turkic you have a Kazakh translation

    Well, actually the Kazakh language is the Turkic language, the Kipchak dialect.

    Quote: Cro-Magnon
    And it didn’t occur to you that the Kazakhs are the same prefabricated people as the Russians ... and that they didn’t come from you, but you are from the remnants of THEIR PEOPLES who roamed and lived settled on this land ?!

    I believe that Kazakhs are Turkic tribes. United for the first time, first at first in the Turkic Kaganate, then under Genghis Khan ...

    Quote: Cro-Magnon
    I myself am from Kazakhstan ... and I know how much Kazakhs differ even externally from each other ... it is more difficult to distinguish a Russian from a Tatar or an Udmurt ... Do not be like the "great ukram" of our common great-grandparents!


    Still they would not differ! If you delve into something like that, in every family someone once brought a wife from very far away. Kalmyks, Russians, Chinese women, Sarts, Persians ... In ancient times, they fought and robbed everything in a row ... well, they dragged to the hut whoever can ... The antrotyp depends on women, i.e. facial features of the same ... hi
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 16 2016 20: 50
    +2
    Quote: Aposlya
    Here take for example the Kazakh Kipchak tribe

    Well, let's all write to the Kazakhs)) I write about real Kazakhs from three juses.

    Quote: Aposlya
    As for Timur, because he was from the Kazakh clan Barlas, if anything, the clan belongs to the Mughal Turks, like the Naimans, Dulats, Merkits, Kiyats, etc. Well, did we conquer Bukhara under Genghis Khan actually, or did you forget?

    Listen, I won’t even argue. Let it be a Kazakh))
    Who are you?
    Quote: Aposlya
    In fact, it was from the steppes that people came from Avars and ending with the Golden Horde and gave lyuli to the "forest" ...

    This is in an alternative story. Luli were given and then they are to us and we are to them, but people came from the forest and this whole territory is now Russia. Moreover, these people created 4 Turkic states.
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 26
    +1
    Quotation: blooded man
    Well, let's all write to the Kazakhs)) I write about real Kazakhs from three juses.

    So I write about them. Kipchaks in Middle Zhuz, Kangly in the Elder. Kiyats, for example (the tribe from which Genghis Khan himself came out) already as a tribe does not exist among the Kazakhs, only as separate clans in other tribes. Although the same Karakalpaks Kiyat exists as a separate tribe. Mukali, who conquered China for Genghis Khan, and the rules in it on his behalf were from the Jalair tribe - this is Elder Zhuz. The Naiman tribe is Middle Zhuz. The Merkit tribe is the Middle Zhuz. Kerey is the Middle Zhuz among the Kazakhs ... Kongirat, or rather Konyrat, is the Middle Zhuz. I hope you know the names of these tribes? At least for the trilogy of Jan? Well, I gave you exactly the Kazakh tribes.
    There are many of them. Well, for example, there is such a Uysuni tribe - these are so famous since the pre-Christ era - they had their own Uysun kingdom in those days ... Well and so on ...
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 16 2016 21: 37
    +1
    Quote: Aposlya
    So I write about them. Kipchaks in Middle Zhuz, Kangly in the Elder. Kiyats for example (the tribe from which Genghis Khan himself came out)

    All clear . And these people still call someone lol Omenkivtsi
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 15
    +1
    Quotation: blooded man
    All clear . And these people are still called f omenkovets

    And what bothers you then? What I know the origin of the tribes and clans of my people? So with us every Kazakh knows his tribe, clan and up to 7 tribes of ancestors. This is commonplace ...
    Or the fact that Genghis Khan was from the Kitya tribe? So this is the same Rashid Ad Din wrote ...
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 17 2016 01: 47
    +2
    Quote: Aposlya
    Or the fact that Genghis Khan was from the Kitya tribe? So this is the same Rashid Ad Din wrote ...

    You understand what the matter is besides Kazakh, as dill, stubborn nationalism there is such a science as history. She is certainly a girl and rewritten along and across, but there are things where you should not stick out your Svidomo everywhere. What do you think, besides Rashid, did anyone write about Genghis Khan? laughing
    Quote: Aposlya
    And what bothers you then? What I know the origin of the tribes and clans of my people? So with us every Kazakh knows his tribe, clan and up to 7 tribes of ancestors. This is commonplace ...

    Well, this is called the tribal system, which once again confirms that such peoples are incapable of building an empire. This is simply a historical fact, there was no exception in the history of mankind. Roughly speaking, you can easily be divided into several states, and you would have taken it completely calmly.
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 11: 44
    0
    five plus a friend, he definitely said laughing
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 11: 43
    0
    And here you’re lying, my friend, don’t give the wish for ...., sometimes many people don’t even speak their own language, apparently it’s one of you’s fantasies rushing again, or the reports of ministers about 100% learning the Kazakh language, re-read
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 16 2016 21: 48
    +1
    We go to the wiki and read: Among the Buryats there are merkit births.
    Among the Volga Kalmyks there are two “Aymachian” groups - Ho-Merkit (“Noble Merkits”) and Iki-Merkits (“Older Merkits”) [12].
    As part of the genera of Kerei and Naiman, the Middle Zhuz of Kazakhs has a subgenus Merkit.
    Also, the descendants of the Merkits live in the Kemerovo region, joining the Teleuts.
    Among the Bashkirs there are genera of merkit.
    Does this mean that the Merkits have always been Kazakhs?
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 16 2016 21: 51
    +1
    Quote: Cartalon
    Does this mean that the Merkits have always been Kazakhs?

    I understand that there are all Kazakhs laughing
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 51
    0
    Quote: Cartalon
    We go to the wiki and read: Among the Buryats there are merkit births.
    Among the Volga Kalmyks there are two “Aymachian” groups - Ho-Merkit (“Noble Merkits”) and Iki-Merkits (“Older Merkits”) [12].
    As part of the genera of Kerei and Naiman, the Middle Zhuz of Kazakhs has a subgenus Merkit.
    Also, the descendants of the Merkits live in the Kemerovo region, joining the Teleuts.
    Among the Bashkirs there are genera of merkit.
    Does this mean that the Merkits have always been Kazakhs?


    Buryats, Kalmyks - are not divided into genera; they have a geographical division by aimaks. Aimak is a district literally.
    Merkit is a Turkic tribe, which is not only among the Kazakhs, but also among the Bashkirs, Nogais, and Karakalpaks. Initially, this is primarily the TURKISH tribe.
    The ethnonym KAZAK himself (Kazakh in Russian) is a political ethnonym, such as RUSSIAN, given to our ancestors in ancient times.
    Here I read your questions and the feeling that you are specifically trying to ask some tricky questions. To reduce the polemic that happened before - an egg or a chicken! wink
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 16 2016 23: 39
    0
    I reduce the polemic to the fact that you artificially introduce modern politics into antiquity than many sin on this site, among the Kazakhs there are descendants of the Huns, maybe even in a straight descending line, but the Huns were not Kazakhs, they were not Türks, since the first Türks they called themselves in Altai in the 6th century and they didn’t know anything about the power of the Huns and generally considered the world to have been created not long ago.
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 16 2016 23: 54
    0
    Quote: Cartalon
    I reduce the polemic to the fact that you artificially introduce modern politics into antiquity than many sin on this site, among the Kazakhs there are descendants of the Huns, maybe even in a straight descending line, but the Huns were not Kazakhs, they were not Türks, since the first Türks they called themselves in Altai in the 6th century and they didn’t know anything about the power of the Huns and generally considered the world to have been created not long ago.


    Can you show me where I said that the Xiongnu were Turks or Kazakhs? How do you read posts in general? I said that the Xiongnu were the ancestors of the Turks, and the Kazakhs are the Turks. Of course, this is not identical with the fact that "all the Turks are Kazakhs"! It's just that Kazakhs are made up of Turkic tribes ... So you shouldn't be casting a shadow on the fence ...
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 17 2016 00: 27
    0
    Well, here is your phrase below: Samarkand was conquered by the tribes of Turks that are part of the Kazakhs.
    That's clearer?
    It sounds like they took Kazakhs sent tribes to take Samarkand.
    How should it sound right? Samarkand was taken by the army of Genghis Khan, most of which, in my opinion, were Turkic tribes that became part of the Kazakhs
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 17 2016 15: 46
    0
    Quote: Cartalon
    Well, here is your phrase below: Samarkand was conquered by the tribes of Turks that are part of the Kazakhs.
    That's clearer?

    Well, that's right! If the attack on Samarkand involved soldiers from the Jalair tribe, which belongs to the Elder Zhuz among the Kazakhs, for example, then what is the problem?
    For example, when you study history, write that the Russian prince Svyatoslav went to the Khazar Kaganate? And you are not at all embarrassed by the fact that in those days the word "Russian" did not even exist as an ethnonym ...

    Quote: Cartalon
    How should it sound right? Samarkand was taken by the army of Genghis Khan, most of which, in my opinion, were Turkic tribes that became part of the Kazakhs

    You could say that, then? If in the 10th century these Turkic tribes were called the Persians by the ethnonym KAZAK, then in the 13th century, why shouldn't they be called the same?
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 18 2016 11: 13
    -3
    Your reference to a certain Persian source is not convincing, the term Cossack and the Cossack people are two different things, otherwise now some Russian dodrelenits will prove that it was about the Russian Cossacks that Svyatoslav was directly one to one Cossack
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 19 2016 08: 14
    -1
    The ethnonym KAZAK is actually a Türkic word or Türkism in Russian, so you know. It literally translates as a free, exile, "departed from the yurt" ...
    Well, about Svyatoslav ... What is the name of that forelock on the head of the Cossacks and Svyatoslav? Crest? So this is also a derivative of the Turkic word Kekel or Aydar, which denoted this tuft of hair on a shaved head. These crests were worn by the ancient Turks in the pre-Islamic period, when they worshiped the god Tengri. According to legend, Tengri, after the death of a warrior, had to identify a Turk by him and drag the deceased into heaven for him ... Well, the fact that the Cossacks became Russians later, became Russified with the adoption of the Orthodox faith. Although if you read the same Tolstoy his story "Cossacks", you would know that the Cossacks in the 19th century spoke Tatar to each other and in their families, ie. in Turkic ...
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 17 2016 01: 38
    0
    Quote: Aposlya
    it is a political ethnonym, such as RUSSIAN

    How much new have I learned about myself from the Kazakh. Are you not very smart, huh? Of course, I understand that you are still measuring all the genera and tribes, you just do not need to transfer your vision of the tribal world to all peoples. I just advise you in a friendly way.
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 17 2016 15: 48
    -2
    Quotation: blooded man
    How much new have I learned about myself from the Kazakh.


    But there was no question of you at all, it seems your personality we are not discussing here!

    Quotation: blooded man
    Are you not very smart, huh?

    I don’t know, but I can definitely say that it’s not such a notorious hamlo like you ... hi
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 11: 50
    0
    In ancient times? Read the book, the history of the Siberian Cossacks, where for the first time the Cossacks encountered steppes who had the same name in the 18 century, when penetrating deep into the steppes. Well, if you study everything like that, well at least take a look from the other side.
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 28
    +1
    Quotation: blooded man
    Listen, I won’t even argue. Let it be a Kazakh))
    Who are you?

    I am a Kazakh, from the Argyn tribe, the Karakesek clan, Middle Zhuz.

    Quotation: blooded man
    This is in an alternative story.

    Kaganaty for you an alternative story? winked
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 16 2016 21: 43
    +1
    Quote: Aposlya
    I am a Kazakh, from the Argyn tribe, the Karakesek clan, Middle Zhuz.

    What difference does it make to me? What tribe are you from? 21 century to fuck. I ask who you conquered Samarkand. Again, what are the Kazakhs?

    Quote: Aposlya
    Kaganaty for you an alternative story?

    Well, who always gave lyuley to people from the forest, yes. Since they gave alternately.
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 21
    0
    Quotation: blooded man
    What difference does it make to me? What tribe are you from? 21 century to fuck. I ask who you conquered Samarkand. Again, what are the Kazakhs?


    You asked me yourself: "Listen, I won't even argue. Let him be Kazakh))
    Who you are?"
    I answered you. And the fact that in the courtyard of the 21st century or at least 30 does not change anything. You just need to know your roots, as it has been since ancient times. Well, if you are not interested in knowing your roots, then these are your problems ....

    Samarkand was conquered by the tribes of Türks, which are part of the Kazakhs.
    That's clearer?
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 17 2016 02: 07
    +1
    Quote: Aposlya
    I answered you

    So Kazakhs all the same?
    Quote: Aposlya
    And the fact that in the courtyard of the 21st century or at least 30 does not change anything. You just need to know your roots, as it has been since ancient times. N

    THIS CHANGES VERY MUCH. You just don’t understand this.

    Quote: Aposlya
    Well, if you are not interested in knowing your roots, then these are your problems ....

    Are you suggesting that I know from which tribe of Drevlyans or meadows? Russians, like all developed nations of the world, have not lived in a tribal system for a long time. The rejection of this made it possible to develop society and the state, create science, a modern army, create great real states (and not mythical ones from which there is no trace). That is why THESE have won STEP, and not vice versa. A person in the modern world needs to know only his direct relatives and this is enough. Although of course, for example, in villages people also know their roots up to the 7th tribe, but they live in villages and do not participate in the development of technology.
    If you still have everything as it is now, then you will not advance one step further. You will sit on minerals and that’s all, and when they run out you will return to your normal state. This is not me so vangany, and world history speaks about it. People with such thinking as you will never invent, for example, an aiphon. Just can not create such conditions for this.
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 11: 59
    +1
    Oh well done, he clearly explained everything to him, but I'm sure that he won't understand this, as children say "I'm in the house", how much I tried to explain to them, but it's all to no avail. The owner of the country and believe me, this is not a joke I heard more than once
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 17 2016 12: 57
    0
    Quote: Taras_77.
    I’m a master of the country and believe me, this is not a joke heard more than once

    It is sad.
    I had never talked with the Kazakhs on these topics before, and to be honest, a little out. Such a city and sincerely believe in it, tin.
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 18: 41
    +1
    Believe me, here you can’t hear something like that,
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 17 2016 15: 55
    -3
    Quotation: blooded man
    Are you suggesting that I know from which tribe of Drevlyans or meadows?

    I AM? And where did I suggest this? This is a purely personal matter ... Although IMHO - this is no longer possible ...

    Quotation: blooded man
    Russians, like all developed nations of the world, have not lived in a tribal system for a long time.

    But the Russians have never lived in a tribal-tribal system. Since Russian is a political ethnonym, despite the fact that it consists of a variety of ethnic groups. Therefore, to say so is completely incorrect ...
    Quotation: blooded man


    The rejection of this made it possible to develop society and the state, create science, a modern army, create great real states

    Nonsense! Knowing your roots does not affect the development or construction of anything at all!

    Quotation: blooded man
    Although of course, for example, in villages people also know their roots up to the 7th generation, but they live in villages and do not participate in the development of technology.

    Again nonsense! All the more so in the villages no pedigrees were conducted for quite certain circumstances. Is it that the nobles led her, and even those at 17 ended ...

    Quotation: blooded man
    If you still have everything as it is now, then you will not advance one step further. You will sit on minerals and that’s all, and when they run out you will return to your normal state. This is not me so vangany, and world history speaks about it. People with such thinking as you will never invent, for example, an aiphon. Just can not create such conditions for this.

    And then in the Russian Federation they don’t sit on them, but all of Chubais’s people earn a living by nanotechnology ?! fellow
    Or an iPhone invented in Russia, huh?
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 17 2016 17: 23
    +1
    Quote: Aposlya

    I AM? And where did I suggest this? This is a purely personal matter ... Although IMHO - this is no longer possible ...

    Of course, this is very good.
    Quote: Aposlya
    But the Russians have never lived in a tribal-tribal system. Since Russian is a political ethnonym, despite the fact that it consists of a variety of ethnic groups. Therefore, to say so is completely incorrect ...

    You urgently need to read smart books about the Slavs, urgently. Only not Kazakhs, but normal scientific works. The Slavs had thousands of clans and dozens of tribes.
    Political ethnonym is RUSSIA. Although this is the grandson of Genghis Khan is not able to understand.


    Quote: Aposlya
    Nonsense! Knowing your roots does not affect the development or construction of anything at all!

    So what did such societies build? For example, Kazakhs? Just do not tell me about today, this does not apply to you at all. Yes, and today you have nothing all the heritage and foreign technology.
    I'll tell you -Nothing. laughing
    Quote: Aposlya
    Again nonsense! All the more so in the villages no pedigrees were conducted for quite certain circumstances. Is it that the nobles led her, and even those at 17 ended ..

    Uncle You doo.ak (s) Good quote, from a good movie.

    Quote: Aposlya
    And then in the Russian Federation they don’t sit on them, but all of Chubais’s people earn a living by nanotechnology ?!
    Or an iPhone invented in Russia, huh?

    All that is in Kazakhstan was built by Russia and the Russians. All . Starting from cities and ending with gas pipeline. Even of you people were made of savages. Only apparently all this is useless and people are still watching the steppe laughing
    Why do we need to make an aiphone? We will continue to build rockets. nuclear power and a bunch, a bunch of everything. Aiphon is a civil technology that even the Koreans have long repeated. laughing
    Dunked himself, it happens wassat
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 21: 50
    +1
    Ay beautiful, well done good
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 19 2016 08: 21
    -1
    Quotation: blooded man
    All that is in Kazakhstan was built by Russia and the Russians. All . Starting from cities and ending with gas pipeline. Even of you people were made of savages. Only apparently all this is useless and people are still watching the steppe

    Probably the Egyptian pyramids were also built by the Russians ?!
    So you opened your face, or rather the face of the usual stupid chauvinist from the camp of Demchishin ... good luck jackal! smile
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 18: 45
    -1
    Damaging you mind, what else can you say. lol
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 18: 34
    +1
    C'mon, hamloe as it is, today I’ve come across someone like you, but actually every day on your roads and not only wink
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 16 2016 22: 27
    +2
    Yes, you are clearly a cheerful person, I can’t say more, your entire rating of cities built by the Kazakhs ended with one, and then you depressed during the turmoil, the conquerors laughing I read how you cut paper on paper here, it’s straight fun, the great warriors you fled from the onslaught under the wing of hated forest people. By the way, all that you had, and why then it didn’t, you didn’t have enough strength, or, let me guess, the insidious northern neighbors did not allow you to develop?
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 17: 59
    +1
    laughing laughing Well, tell us, when in the past two centuries, even according to official history, have you done this? laughing This is me about lyuley
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 16 2016 19: 59
    0
    Actually, it seems that the grandson of Mamaia received the tract Glina for the withdrawal of Vytautas from his own forest, although my surname and Glinsky can not consider this a special achievement
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 29
      +1
      Quote: Cartalon
      Actually, it seems that the grandson of Mamaia received the tract Glina for the withdrawal of Vytautas from his own forest, although my surname and Glinsky can not consider this a special achievement


      In the Cell Book and the Synodal List, compiled much later than the last Glinsky’s death, the family is traced from the temnik of Mamai, whose son allegedly left Crimea and created an autonomous principality in the border between the Golden Horde and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania:
      And after the Don Battle of Mamaev, the son of Mansur-Kiyat (Markisuat), the Prince, cut down three cities of Glinesk, [yes] Poldova (Poltava), [yes] Glecenitsa (Glinitsa), the children of the Mansur-kiyatovs (Mansurkiatovs), the smaller son of Skider (Skidyr) [ he caught [a herd] of a herd of horses and camels and rode to Perekopy, and the big son of [him] Alex (Olesko) [Prince, a] stayed in those towns of prejudiced [town].
      1. Taras_77.
        Taras_77. April 17 2016 12: 01
        +1
        Well, Cartalon became a Turk, oh no, a Kazakh laughing
  • Cro-Magnon
    Cro-Magnon April 16 2016 20: 55
    +1
    And this relatives of the Turks built this Glinsk, who later turned into Russians, Slavs, northerners ...?! We have great princes and kings, many noble Tatars, Litvins, Poles, Germans, Danes and Swedes were given out to the Russian zemlyatse for service along with the Russian people ... they built a lot of things! But it was still the Russian state ... and it exists to this day! And where is what remains of the nomadic empires? What would remain of the Tamirlan empire if it were not based on the remains of settled Sogdian culture ?! Mountains of stacked skulls ?!
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 24
      +1
      Quote: Cro-Magnon
      And this relatives of the Turks built this Glinsk, who later turned into Russians, Slavs, northerners ...?!


      A rhetorical question.
      Well, then how the Turks easily turn into Russian probably do not need to explain? He converted to Orthodoxy during the transition to the ministry of Rurikovich in those days and that’s all. So Prince Yusupov became the brightest Russian prince. Or Derzhavins, Chaadayevs, Karamurzins, etc. etc. There were such dofig ...
      1. Cro-Magnon
        Cro-Magnon April 17 2016 07: 21
        0
        Yes, I'm actually talking about the fact that only nations create states and material wealth, and not elite cheap things that run there, changing their homeland, master, faith and language ... you should not attribute to them achievements created not by their labors!
      2. Aposlya
        Aposlya April 17 2016 15: 57
        0
        Nikola Tesla was a running cheap thing? Or Enshtein? Or maybe Dostoevsky? Or is Lermontov cheap? No?
        You really somehow easier or something ...
      3. Taras_77.
        Taras_77. April 17 2016 19: 01
        0
        Where is the connection? Explain to us dull. Well, just not so that you were Kazakhs laughing
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 21: 54
    +1
    You guys see each other and plyusuyut, vile personality as it is laughing
  • kalibr
    kalibr April 16 2016 10: 00
    0
    And what about the Mongols on the right?
  • Chiropractor
    Chiropractor April 16 2016 10: 20
    +4
    Scythian hats - helmets of knights or attackers ??? !!!!!!
    Each picture is different. Mismatch ..

    Horse arbalester ???? !!!!!!! Horse-drawn arbalester !!!! Charles!!!!!
    Bredyatina.

    And by the way, where did the arrow hit him - he died, right?
  • Hlavaty
    Hlavaty April 16 2016 11: 09
    0
    But really, who can it be on the banner of the Mongols in the European crown?
  • Max_Bauder
    Max_Bauder April 16 2016 14: 00
    0
    Tribute to mongols (dedicated to the Mongols) smile

    1. Taras_77.
      Taras_77. April 17 2016 19: 04
      +1
      And what should we have learned here? Should I be scared or start respecting you wildly? Take your fantasies into the toilet in which you give birth to them.
  • Vend
    Vend April 18 2016 09: 52
    +1
    Quote: Portolan

    funny forgers to look at the truth, and here's another image

    Monks in all countries wrote miniatures without crawling out of their cells. There were very few who went to study this or that event or people. Basically, they relied on their own knowledge. As well as church traditions.
    1. KaPToC
      KaPToC April 18 2016 12: 24
      -1
      Quote: Wend
      Monks in all countries wrote miniatures without crawling out of their cells.

      Not only that, all modern historical chronology was written without getting out of the cell, no sources were used, the compilers did not use any literature, wrote what the Vatican ordered, and only then did historical research be adapted to this completely invented chronology.
      1. Vend
        Vend April 19 2016 15: 46
        0
        Quote: KaPToC
        Quote: Wend
        Monks in all countries wrote miniatures without crawling out of their cells.

        Not only that, all modern historical chronology was written without getting out of the cell, no sources were used, the compilers did not use any literature, wrote what the Vatican ordered, and only then did historical research be adapted to this completely invented chronology.

        Here you are wrong. The monastery libraries were very extensive. And the Vatican is by no means here. In those days, Orthodoxy and Catholicism were so inapplicable that they would not even sit next to them. If there were customers, then from princes and patriarchs.
  • Andy
    Andy April 16 2016 09: 49
    +1
    I don’t know what you have against Fomenko, but you are clearly an adherent of the origin of man from a monkey (Darwin scientifically said that!). however, now monkeys are completely lazy and, unlike your ancestors, have ceased to turn into humans. so with the story. the Mongols themselves didn’t know who enslaved anyone. such a page in the history of the people cannot be hushed up, at least legends and songs about heroes should have remained
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Andy
    Andy April 16 2016 10: 01
    +6
    after the tlauikol
    May 1945 is still not so far and our veterans are still alive, but history is already being rewritten. and they didn’t liberate Europe at all (it secretly did everything itself), and the aggressors (they attacked Hitler on June 22 sleeping in the barracks!), etc. and militias and partisans are just bandits. historians write this. Let homegrown, but historians. and how long their delusional versions will become an official story, God alone knows.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 16 2016 12: 12
      -6
      Where did you get this nonsense and where do some historians write it? Show me one such book! Who writes this - name, publisher, year, title of the book. You do not confuse God's gift with scrambled eggs. And about the barracks and Hitler - who specifically wrote this?
      You understand with your foam that such statements based, incidentally, on the stupid propaganda of our media, you are making a serious scientific discovery. Because you should name everything that I wrote above and ... here it is - a dream - to catch the historian in the wrong. But only I strongly doubt that you will bring at least one page of this!

      I see cons - I DO NOT SEE ANSWERS! What is this talking about ?!
      1. Alex
        Alex April 16 2016 14: 15
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        And about the barracks and Hitler - who specifically wrote this?

        Vyacheslav, this is most likely an allusion and a polemic trick, you should not find fault so much. And this is the answer to what you yourself very correctly noted:
        Quote: kalibr
        such statements based, incidentally, on the stupid propaganda of our media
        1. kalibr
          kalibr April 16 2016 14: 32
          -1
          Yes, that’s understandable! But are there too many divorced allusions? And besides allusions of knowledge, then no !!!
      2. co-creator
        co-creator April 16 2016 15: 40
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        You do not confuse God's gift with scrambled eggs. And about the barracks and Hitler - who specifically wrote this?

        Why find fault with words? He wrote how it will be. Is not the USSR compared with Germany? Did not historians (seriously Western) have already convinced part of the world that WWII began because of the Molotov-Ribentrop Pact. Did not our patriotic historians agree to consider the Moscow Treaty the Molotov-Ribentrop Pact? Why did the Munich agreements go down in history as agreements, and did the Moscow treaty become a de facto pact? The history has already been changed, and a very important part.

        Minus you Caliber.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr April 16 2016 22: 09
          0
          Yes to me on ... minuses from ignoramuses! But I wonder - what serious Western historians write about this and in what books - pages? Understand everything you write - idle chatter. And it is necessary specifically: who, where, when, on what page. As in court. And if you do not want to look like a zombie rapper, then ... it is better to answer. I answer such questions with the specific title of books, authors and page numbers! And I do not poke strangers. This is rude! Although ... for the ignorant and excusable ... in part.
      3. Andy
        Andy April 16 2016 20: 58
        +2
        caliber

        Yes, I am driving polystyrene ... you may not admit the truth in my words, I quoted verbatim, but conveyed the meaning of what is being driven into heads across Europe today. search the internet for example how the Latvians called the Salaspils concentration camp educational and labor. etc. I didn't lie about the "historians" either. I will return to the topic of the article - our history was misinterpreted even under Ivan the Terrible - how he allegedly executed a Novgorod citizen and killed his son. Lomonosov was also a witness of the next rewriting ... you have few examples? then look for yourself in the internet, I do not save up links ... especially for gvno
        1. kalibr
          kalibr April 16 2016 22: 14
          -3
          Yes, they called the camp. But called historians or politicians? What are the Latvians? Latvians are different! Or are you all united? For me, the Internet is not a source. This is for ... well, this word does not pass here. But you do not know serious books. You even write with gross misspellings, so English is unknown to you. And Lomonosov - Do you know Storoslav or read his works? And the Internet ... The Internet yes, just for such and is calculated! It is through him that you are controlled.
          1. Andy
            Andy April 17 2016 20: 16
            +2
            I forgot that I am dealing with the "exceptional". mistakes? Yes. I find it difficult to type on the small keyboard of my smartphone. and if it does, then you need to erase the word completely. but what to call a boorish attitude towards your opponent on your part? ah-que presses on the skull from the inside?
            1. kalibr
              kalibr April 17 2016 20: 24
              -2
              I have been living in the world for a long time, tired of human stupidity and have long been accustomed to call a spade a spade! And more specifically about the barracks. And then you tell me about Hitler and I tell you, and then you tell me about Lomonosov ... without answering my question. This is like replacing a thesis, huh?
              1. Andy
                Andy April 17 2016 22: 17
                -1
                instead of the topic "history" you have gone into grammar. Did you change anything or just run out of arguments? I have listed you when our history was replaced. try to do it now. So what did you take as the truth of the Mongol-Tatar invasion, when the Mongols themselves (I repeat) do not know? You yourself were a witness?
              2. Andy
                Andy April 17 2016 22: 17
                +1
                instead of the topic "history" you have gone into grammar. Did you change anything or just run out of arguments? I have listed you when our history was replaced. try to do it now. So what did you take as the truth of the Mongol-Tatar invasion, when the Mongols themselves (I repeat) do not know? You yourself were a witness?
                1. kalibr
                  kalibr April 19 2016 06: 33
                  0
                  What you listed is not examples, but idle chatter. Gossip! OBS!
                  Where in what monograph of a recognized and authoritative historian is it written, where are the links to this source of information? Who specifically replaces our history in which books? Only specifically, without trepidation ... I know how to tremble myself. But you read my article here on the VO about the Fiume incident and see how I catch the hand of bullshit and trembling from history!
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. Cro-Magnon
        Cro-Magnon April 16 2016 21: 21
        +2
        And the point is to answer ... that with a stick on your wax is written already no ink can be fixed ...
        Just go and read the new history textbooks, watch the popular history channels ... it is they who form the "historical knowledge" of future generations and not the highly specialized works of prof. historians ...
        1. kalibr
          kalibr April 16 2016 22: 22
          0
          Quote: Cro-Magnon
          And the point is to answer ... that with a stick on your wax is written already no ink can be fixed ...
          Just go and read the new history textbooks, watch the popular history channels ... it is they who form the "historical knowledge" of future generations and not the highly specialized works of prof. historians ...

          How would I explain to you to get ... Everything above is NOTHING. This is not specific. This is empty talk. I know the textbooks better than you, I write them myself, although not from history. And I know that there are very unscrupulous journalists, there are Fomenko, but you can’t name professional historians in our country or in the West who make such crap. But does someone consume and repeat it? Who! Ignoramuses that there, that at us - that's all!
  • Max_Bauder
    Max_Bauder April 16 2016 13: 58
    +1
    most likely it was so ... smile

  • KaPToC
    KaPToC April 16 2016 14: 02
    +2
    Well, it’s a miniature of the 17th century, and the battle was in the 13th century, the historical value is zero, all these drawings are fantasies of artists that have nothing to do with reality.
    1. Cro-Magnon
      Cro-Magnon April 16 2016 21: 29
      0
      Well, then the descriptions from century 21 have a value of -4 ...?
      1. KaPToC
        KaPToC April 17 2016 07: 38
        +1
        That is, the incorrect interpretation of history, it is not just neutral, it is harmful.
        Based on historical data, the future is predicted and development is planned, wrong history = wrong planning = wrong development = social upheaval, disaster wars.
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 16 2016 15: 18
    0
    Quote: Tlauicol
    I beg you, do not show this German miniature to the Fomenkovites - they are still after the icon of the late 17th century. didn't let go

    The main thing that you did not let go. Apparently who painted the thumbnail did not know what to draw Asians.
  • Shurik70
    Shurik70 April 18 2016 23: 32
    +1
    Quote: Tlauicol
    I beg you, do not show this German miniature to the Fomenkovites - they are still after the icon of the late 17th century. didn't let go laughing


    What kind of icon?
  • Hurray
    Hurray April 16 2016 05: 59
    +1
    Yes, our forum has a wide contingent of Fomenkovists. It is a pity to waste time and correct their stupidity. This solid site needs professionals and professional analysis.
    1. Spnsr
      Spnsr April 16 2016 15: 35
      +2
      Quote: Hurray
      Yes, our forum has a wide contingent of Fomenkovists. It is a pity to waste time and correct their stupidity. This solid site needs professionals and professional analysis.

      Well, as they say, please! laughing only by facts, and without insults!
    2. co-creator
      co-creator April 16 2016 15: 44
      +1
      Quote: Hurray
      Yes, our forum has a wide contingent of Fomenkovists. It is a pity to waste time and correct their stupidity. This solid site needs professionals and professional analysis.

      Why are those who present reasonable questions are recorded in Fomenkovtsev?

      You can’t fix anything because the fact that the Mongol invasion as described in the canonical history has not been proved. I ask everyone 6 questions that ideologists and fanatics of canonical history are not able to answer. They just call it Fomenkovets and merge.
      1. Cartalon
        Cartalon April 16 2016 16: 12
        +1
        Who is proven? How is it proven? Who is proven?
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 16 2016 16: 40
          -3
          Historians, archaeologists, DNA, world histories.
          Usually.
          Who is not in the sect of classical history.
          1. Cartalon
            Cartalon April 16 2016 16: 43
            0
            the names of these historians and archaeologists give
            1. co-creator
              co-creator April 16 2016 16: 49
              -1
              Do you have a blacklist?

              If you find archaeologists who have found the presence in Russia (cities, clothes, burial) of the Mongols in droves, then let me know. Better write where.
              1. Cartalon
                Cartalon April 16 2016 18: 17
                +3
                In short, you don’t know any historians to whom you could refer
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator April 16 2016 18: 28
                  -1
                  Of course, I cannot refer to classical historians. Just google and that's it. A lot of literature on this subject. Although for example Gumilyov.

                  I have already written about archaeologists. they all confirm that there was no invasion and yoke. No finds, no business.
                  1. Cartalon
                    Cartalon April 16 2016 19: 48
                    -1
                    But please do not bring Gumilyov to confirm any nonsense, he would most likely answer you that Fomenko's theories are not worth discussing.
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator April 16 2016 19: 57
                      0
                      I wrote somewhere about the theory of Fomenko? Gumilyov also considered classical history to be nonsense.
                      1. Cartalon
                        Cartalon April 16 2016 20: 09
                        +1
                        Dear I read all Gumilyov from cover to cover and not once, he considered all kinds of theories as the origin of the Turks from the Vikings nonsense, and he relied on classical history
                      2. co-creator
                        co-creator April 16 2016 20: 30
                        -1
                        Leaning, understand? He did not agree with her, so what?

                        You decide whether to support the classic version or not.
    3. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 16 2016 16: 20
      +1
      Quotation: blooded man
      I ask everyone 6 questions that ideologists and fanatics of canonical history are not able to answer.


      Sound your questions ...
      1. co-creator
        co-creator April 16 2016 16: 45
        -2
        1. Where is the city of Carocarum.

        2. Why the miracle of horses did not remain on the territory of Russia.

        3. Why did the Mongols find out. that the horse should be fed oats only from the Cossacks.

        4. Are there any other examples in the history WHERE THE STEPPEKS ruled by states that were above them in development at a distance.

        5. Why there are no parallel decrees, annals, labels in the Mongolian language.

        6. Why do the Mongols lack an epic, heritage of this period.
        1. Aposlya
          Aposlya April 16 2016 17: 05
          +3
          Quotation: blooded man

          1. Where is the city of Carocarum.
          2. Why the miracle of horses did not remain on the territory of Russia.
          3. Why did the Mongols find out. that the horse should be fed oats only from the Cossacks.
          4. Are there any other examples in the history WHERE THE STEPPEKS ruled by states that were above them in development at a distance.
          5. Why there are no parallel decrees, annals, labels in the Mongolian language.
          6. Why do the Mongols lack an epic, heritage of this period.


          1. As I wrote above - Karakorum was 2 days away from the city of Taraz (Rashid Ad Din wrote about this), there were also 22 rivers and rivers. I conclude: Karakorum was somewhere in Semirechye (Zhetysu), and this is Kazakhstan.
          2. And how did it become known about the "miracle of horses"? Not from Ian's trilogy? Well, he stupidly took a Mongol horse and described it in his novel, because in those days it was an axiom that Russia was conquered by the Mongols.
          3. Where does this come from?
          4. What exactly do you mean? The Golden Horde did not actually rule Russia. Russia was in vassalism from the Horde, and Russian princes ruled in the principalities, which can be said to have taken their appointment in the Horde in the form of labels. And by the way, I would not say that Russian cities in those days were higher in level with the same Khorezm or Samarkand, Taraz or Shimkent - the cities of the Horde ...
          5. And because there was never a Mongol in the army, they were dragged there already in the 18th century at Karamzin's "History of the Russian State".
          6. Because the Khalka-Mongols learned about their conquests only in 1942, on the 20th anniversary of the Mongolian People's Republic in the Kremlin, where their delegations passed on the so-called "Secret Mongolian Legend", written in Russian! The translation into Russian from the Turkic original was made by the linguist Kozin, the original was then mysteriously lost ...

          By the way, those same "Mongols" who went on a western campaign to Europe are the current Nogays who created the Nogai Yurt (Nogai Horde) on the territory of present-day Ukraine. There are people from only Turkic tribes, which are characteristic of the Kazakhs: Argyns, Kipchaks, Naimans, Dulaty, Zhalair, etc.
          1. marshes
            marshes April 16 2016 17: 19
            +1
            Quote: Aposlya
            By the way, those same "Mongols" who went on a western campaign to Europe are the current Nogays who created the Nogai Yurt (Nogai Horde) on the territory of present-day Ukraine. There are people from only Turkic tribes, which are characteristic of the Kazakhs: Argyns, Kipchaks, Naimans, Dulaty, Zhalair, etc.

            Come on fellow countryman! smile
          2. co-creator
            co-creator April 16 2016 17: 39
            -3
            1. Already means the classic version is lying. Plus me.

            2. Yes, historians say so, they say the Mongols had a miracle of horses that could eat in the winter and in the summer at the pasture. Again me +

            3. It follows from the Cossacks. When they came to Baikal. then met there with the Mongol tribes who were shocked to see a winter man on a horse. It is a fact .

            4. Everything is simple. Thousands of times, one people conquered others. There were several types of control.
            a) The army just entered the land of the enemy, the elite shifted. Moreover, of course, the entire state was guided in the image and likeness of the invaders.
            b) In the conquered state, local princes were left whom the conqueror appointed. Assigned taxes, etc. in favor of the mother country, but at the same time they did not interfere in the internal life. To control taxes and that the local appointees put the Prosecutor and his guard. All decrees must be bilingual, local and imperial.
            c) After the conquest, a tribute was appointed or, but to the modern indemnity. At the same time, there was no political control, since without the Prosecutor it could not be implemented. If no tribute was paid. then the raid followed again.
            What was the method in Russia? If the third, then from whom did they receive labels for reigning? From nomads who cannot control them? What's the point? Could pay tribute, like Moscow Rus Crimeans for example.
            I do not know how Samarkand, but according to history, the Mongols did not even have their own language and they wrote all the labels in Russian or Turkic.

            5. Great. So Fomenko is right?

            6. Great.

            So then you are on my side and also consider the canonical story half-tale. Why am I then Fomenkovets? recourse


            I think that it was a joint campaign of Russians and Turks. What Russian people most likely led this campaign, as they were better acquainted with the territory. Well, in the extreme case, they were the initiators of this campaign.
            1. Cartalon
              Cartalon April 16 2016 18: 12
              0
              All your conclusions about your correctness are not basic on anything,
              1) The Karakorum was, you claimed that it does not exist at all.
              2) how do you think wild horses live in the steppe?
              3) is there any confirmation of the fact?
              4) in Russia there were Basques, then the princes took their functions nor any riddles there
              5) the Mongols in the army were as personal squads of the colonels leading the campaign, they, in addition to the people of Batu, returned to Mongolia
              6) I can not say anything on this topic
              1. co-creator
                co-creator April 16 2016 18: 24
                0
                1 . Where is he?

                2. Usually on their own without a rider.

                3. Of course. ARCHIVES.

                4. The Baskakis simply collect tribute and cannot influence the rule, let alone control. Anyone could be a Baskak. This is a common tribute, no more. For example, only the Peter stopped paying tribute to the Crimeans. What does this mean all the Kings before him in Bahchisarai Appointed?

                5. That is, the Mughals did not establish the Mongol Empire and history is lying? I understand correctly?

                6. Cool. That's about Alexander the Great, even the Hindus have epics, but you can’t tell me anything wassat

                As usual, there are no answers to 6 questions.
                1. Cartalon
                  Cartalon April 16 2016 18: 51
                  -1
                  All of you were answered except your question number 6, I personally was simply not interested in Mongolian legends, maybe there wasn’t anything left because the Genghisids were cut out in China and the eastern branch was cut short in the 15-16th century.
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator April 16 2016 20: 03
                    -2
                    1. Where is the city?

                    2. About the horse again zero.

                    3. You do not have an answer

                    4. Compare the collectors of tribute, taxes with political control. Do you even understand what you are writing about?

                    5. In classical history it is written that the Mongols led the empire. Do you agree with this or not?

                    6. hmm .. again an attempt to come up with an excuse and knock it under reality

                    Zero answers again, but of course the classic story is real. Those who are against Fomenenko bully
                  2. Cro-Magnon
                    Cro-Magnon April 16 2016 21: 51
                    +1
                    Were you specifically asked where is Karokorum? Not a remake for tourists but a proven ruin or a city based on the remains of Corokorum ...? I agree with my brother-in-law that there are no answers ... Kazakhs row for themselves, adherents of classical knowledge rest with their horns, but stubbornly raise the Mongols on a pedestal ... For me, this is a story-a corrupt girl of any period and any system ... Stalin destroyed enemies? Destroyed ... a tyrant and a bloodsucker! Yeltsin built a "new dew ... democratic" ... a palace for him for this! The fact that the country's population has decreased by 20 million ... do not care, the plan from the owners was to leave only 30, and even better 15 million ...
                    And here we are arguing about the affairs of bygone days, while before our eyes the cheaters and scum are pushing us, eyewitnesses of the events!, Their version of the events of some 25 past years!
          3. tlauicol
            tlauicol April 16 2016 19: 45
            +1
            Rashid ad Din cheerfully scribbled books sitting in his office and was never in Karakorum. Eyewitnesses 13c (including Italians and French) from Taraz, on average, another 1,5-2 months to get to Carocorum. If he tore his ass off the chair and went to Mongolia ..
            And Semirechensky Km where did it go? Famously renamed Karashar (Fomenko is easy. Jerusalem Rome Ramas-Samara - what's the difference) or just evaporated? And why was it necessary to transfer the capital to Beijing - the distance is utter (it’s the same as from Moscow to Barnaul), and not Samarkand, for example?
            No, Karakorum is exactly where it is - in Mongolia
            1. co-creator
              co-creator April 16 2016 20: 13
              0
              Quote: Tlauicol
              No, Karakorum is exactly where it is - in Mongolia

              Where. name this place which according to the same travelers was the richest and largest city in the world.
            2. Aposlya
              Aposlya April 16 2016 20: 30
              -1
              Quote: Tlauicol
              Rashid ad Din cheerfully scribbled books sitting in his office and was never in Karakorum.

              Excuse me, we’ve already got excited! Rashid Ad Din was actually the vizier of the Genghisides (Hulagids). And by the way, he was in the Karakoram, which he described in his annals.

              Quote: Tlauicol
              Eyewitnesses 13c (including Italians and French) from Taraz, on average, another 1,5-2 months to get to Carocorum. If he tore his ass off the chair and went to Mongolia ..


              Who exactly wrote that he traveled from Taraz to Karakorum for 2 months?

              Quote: Tlauicol
              And Semirechensky Km where did it go? Famously renamed Karashar (Fomenko is easy. Jerusalem Rome Ramas-Samara - what's the difference) or just evaporated? And why was it necessary to transfer the capital to Beijing - the distance is utter (it’s the same as from Moscow to Barnaul), and not Samarkand, for example?


              How many cities in Middle Asia after those years survived, eh? There, on the site of the famous and rich city of Otrar, barely found as ruins. Genghis Khan even ordered to sprinkle everything with salt so that nothing would grow at all! This is how cities in the steppe were destroyed. No walls, no houses - nothing remained of the city, if that was the highest indication ...
              Well, about Hanbalyk - Beijing, so this is just the capital of the ulus of Khulagu Khan. After the death of Genghis Khan, his lands were divided between sons into ULUS.
              1. Taras_77.
                Taras_77. April 16 2016 22: 53
                +1
                A convenient position, they destroyed everything to the ground, but how then are your dates taken?
              2. co-creator
                co-creator April 17 2016 03: 28
                +1
                Quote: Aposlya
                There, on the site of the famous and rich city of Otrar, barely found as ruins. Genghis Khan even ordered to sprinkle everything with salt so that nothing would grow at all!

                LET READ Kazakh Fomenko, I demand Dai link.
              3. tlauicol
                tlauicol April 17 2016 06: 48
                -1
                RashidadDin was not in Karakoram

                Guillaume Rubruk got from Taraz 50 days

                Cities in the steppe were destroyed ?! So the Karakorum was destroyed by the Chinese. He did not stay in the capital for long - and could not grow to the size of Beijing, Paris or Samarkand.
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator April 17 2016 12: 37
                  0
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  Paris

                  Do you even understand that in those days Paris was a village?

                  Destroyed for that. that would seichas this otmazatsya that's all laughing
              4. tlauicol
                tlauicol April 17 2016 09: 46
                +1
                The city stayed the capital for only forty years. Construction began only after 10 years (before that, the rate in yurts was placed). He could not have reached the size of modern megalopolises. Two quarters - European witnesses say this. The rest is yurts. From Taraz, 1,5 months of travel. Orkhon River. A provincial town that quickly ceased to be the capital. It’s hard to find the Capitol or the Louvre there.

                Rashid ad Din was not there. The name of the river does not lead. At the same time, he manages to bury himself: precisely indicating the number of postal stations (37) from Beijing to Karokorum and the distance between them (25-30 km or 5 pharasangs) is 1000-1100 km. Almost perfect hit. And to the Seven Rivers is three times further
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator April 17 2016 12: 39
                  +1
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  The city stayed the capital for only forty years

                  Sorry, but the Russian annals say the opposite. Several generations of Russian princes traveled to Karokarum. Just admit that all this is fiction and all.
                  1. tlauicol
                    tlauicol April 17 2016 15: 07
                    0
                    they went to the Barn - and this is not the capital either request just admit that this is just one of many cities, and quite ordinary. Nifiga not beijing

                    but at the same time no longer refer to RashidadDina
                    1. Aposlya
                      Aposlya April 17 2016 15: 17
                      +1
                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      they went to Saray - and this is not the capital either; just admit that this is just one of many cities, and quite ordinary. Nifiga not beijing

                      And what kind of barn do you mean? There was an old Shed - Shed Batu with a population of 75 thousand people. At that time a very huge city! There was also a New Barn founded by Khan Berke ...
                      Well, about "Nifiga is not Beijing" - can you name a couple of cities that existed at that time as long as that Beijing-Khanbalik? Or are you trying to compare Moscow with him? So Moscow in those days was generally a village! laughing

                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      but at the same time no longer refer to RashidadDina


                      He is something that did not please you?
                    2. Taras_77.
                      Taras_77. April 17 2016 19: 48
                      +1
                      Mmmmmmm, have you personally been involved in the census? And where are the ruins then? How many questions can I ask, where are the facts? Do analytics at home with an average family of 7 people and give us the result.
                  2. co-creator
                    co-creator April 17 2016 17: 27
                    +1
                    Quote: Tlauicol
                    ifig is not Beijing

                    but at the same time no longer refer to RashidadDina

                    I don’t know this comrade at all. this is to the Kazakh, he is their god.

                    According to the annals, both Karakorum and Sarai are huge cities with palaces and all that. It's just that they are not in Mongolia and on the Volga, that's all. Of course, Kazakh comrades do not have them in Central Asia either.
                2. Aposlya
                  Aposlya April 17 2016 16: 03
                  0
                  Quotation: blooded man
                  Sorry, but the Russian annals say the opposite. Several generations of Russian princes traveled to Karokarum. Just admit that all this is fiction and all.

                  This is where it was described? Who described the trip from the Russians and Karakoram? Have you already come up with? wink
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator April 17 2016 17: 30
                    +1
                    Quote: Aposlya
                    This is where it was described? Who described the trip from the Russians and Karakoram? Have you already come up with?

                    I myself invented everything. Nobody went there and wrote about it. All lies. I can’t help you with anything, read the annals.

                    Once again I demand a link to your Fomenko from where are you sending us the information here. Do not be a miser m share. winked
                  2. Taras_77.
                    Taras_77. April 17 2016 20: 06
                    +1
                    75000 population, we will take as a basis a family of 7 people, 10500 approximately yards, also approximately a house in 50 squares, plus agricultural buildings, office buildings, this is more than 520000 square meters of area. Paris in the 6 century was inhabited by 15-20000 people and at the same time I trust them more than their sources. Now show me the place where this city was?
            3. Taras_77.
              Taras_77. April 17 2016 19: 35
              +1
              Listen, and when China swallows you, you probably say that the Chinese became part of the Kazakhs? laughing
        2. Taras_77.
          Taras_77. April 16 2016 22: 44
          +1
          1 Facts, facts, where exactly this miracle town is located on the ground, it’s the capital, it means how big it is, how many people. 4 Khorezm and Samarkand okay, but now I doubt about Taraz and Shymkent. 5 Exactly, they weren’t there, and you weren’t here because of this, and then, although, with your writing, and the library, it’s not clear wink5 Well, of course, on this basis, you decided that the Kazakhs did it. I’ll digress from the topic a bit, have they already written in your textbooks that you built the cosmodrome and kindly allowed the forest savages to use it?
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya April 16 2016 23: 02
            -1
            Quote: Taras_77.
            1 Facts, facts, where exactly on the ground this miracle town is, it is also the capital, which means how big it is, how many people. 4 Khorezm and Samarkand okay, but now I doubt about Taraz and Shymkent. 5 Exactly, they weren’t there, and you weren’t there for that reason, although it’s not clear with your writing, and the library 5 Well, of course, on this basis you decided that the Kazakhs did it. I’ll digress from the topic a bit, have they already written in your textbooks that you built the cosmodrome and kindly allowed the forest savages to use it?


            Is everything all right with your head or are you trying to get in touch with a local troll? winked
            1. Taras_77.
              Taras_77. April 17 2016 12: 10
              0
              You know with my yes, but here’s how I am visiting you, I’m directly seeing how much you have everything running
  • Mangel olys
    Mangel olys April 16 2016 06: 13
    +1
    In the course of these events, the Catholics were seriously "frightened". June - July
    1245 Innocent IV convened the First Council of Lyons, at which the decree "On the Tartars" was adopted. It recognized the growing threat to the Catholic world and prescribed: “Therefore, according to the decision of the holy council, we advise, ask, order and sincerely command all of you, as far as possible, to carefully follow the route and ways by which this people (Tatars) can enter your lands, erecting ditches, walls and other fortifications in order to keep them (Tatars) in fear and so that their journey to you would not be easy. Information about their arrival must be provided to the Apostolic See in advance. In this way, we can send help to all our faithful, and you can receive protection from the raids of this people. ”(First Council of Lyons (1245). On the Tartars // Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils. Vol. I (Nicaea I - Lateran
    V) / Ed. NP Tanner. - Washington, 1990. - P. 581)
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon April 16 2016 06: 16
      0
      Well, who would not be scared then?
    2. Andy
      Andy April 16 2016 09: 55
      0
      I want to note that on all Eurocards of the Middle Ages Russia is Tartaria. not to be confused with Tatarstan!
      1. Cartalon
        Cartalon April 16 2016 11: 46
        +3
        There are a lot of interesting things on average weight maps like one-legged people
        1. kalibr
          kalibr April 16 2016 12: 15
          +3
          And there are also Pesheglavtsy, people with a big ear, in which they wrap themselves, and there is also a country of gold-bearing ants, the country of Eldorado and the golden city of Manoa.
          1. KaPToC
            KaPToC April 16 2016 14: 11
            +2
            But the pesheglavtsy really existed, these are the guardsmen of Ivan the Terrible.
            1. Aposlya
              Aposlya April 16 2016 16: 25
              +4
              Quote: KaPToC
              But the pesheglavtsy really existed, these are the guardsmen of Ivan the Terrible.


              Optionally, they could just see a Turkic warrior with a wolf's head instead of a helmet - this was practiced by the Türks, in whom the wolf was considered a totem animal. Something like that ...
              1. Taras_77.
                Taras_77. April 16 2016 22: 58
                +1
                Yes, noooooo, just guardsmen and there were Turks, sorry KAZAKH, hence their cruelty laughing I feel I gave you a reason for new "scientific research" wink
                1. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian April 16 2016 23: 12
                  0
                  Quote: Taras_77.
                  Yes, noooooo, just guardsmen and there were Turks, sorry KAZAKH, hence their cruelty

                  No, they were real devils. In the North, the children are still basargoy * scared ...
                  * Basarga Leontiev in the 1568 year led a punitive campaign on the Tersky coast. He became famous for his extraordinary cruelty.
              2. KaPToC
                KaPToC April 17 2016 07: 40
                +2
                Perhaps so, not eyewitnesses are fools, fools are historians who misunderstand the words of eyewitnesses.
        2. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian April 16 2016 12: 31
          +1
          Quote: Cartalon
          like one-legged people

          ... and psoglavly, and sea bishops and leviathans ...
      2. KaPToC
        KaPToC April 16 2016 14: 10
        +1
        Hu from the Tatars? Where did you come from? Natives of the Tatras?
      3. Aposlya
        Aposlya April 16 2016 16: 22
        +1
        Quote: Andy
        I want to note that on all Eurocards of the Middle Ages Russia is Tartaria. not to be confused with Tatarstan!


        And on all these same cards Muscovy stands separately! winked
        And there by the way on the maps are not Tartaria, but Tartary, which is translated from Latin or English and means - Tatarstan ...
        1. Mangel olys
          Mangel olys April 16 2016 19: 17
          +1
          Finally I heard a sound voice. That's right - the Latins meant Tataria. Well, as for the Muscovites, there were cards with the designation Moscow Tartaria (Tataria).
          1. Aposlya
            Aposlya April 16 2016 20: 32
            +1
            Quote: Mangel Olys
            Finally I heard a sound voice. That's right - the Latins meant Tataria. Well, as for the Muscovites, there were cards with the designation Moscow Tartaria (Tataria).


            Don’t think it’s hard work, look at the analysis in Tartaria with the historian Boris Yulin and Goblin.

            1. Mangel olys
              Mangel olys April 16 2016 21: 19
              +2
              About the recent “discovery of TARTARIA”, and what the English saying “to catch a Tartar” means and something else important:

              Many articles, works and popular films have appeared in recent years - after the books of independent historians and researchers published maps of the Great Tatarstan, which were hidden from the “wide public” for many centuries.

              In those articles and films, much of the “scientific” course of official pro-Western and pro-Chinese history is rejected, which is not bad. For example, the notorious “Mongol-Tatar invasion and yoke” is also rejected in these films and works.
              But along with this yoke, these “innovators” of national history reject the TATAR. ”That's the point. There were no Tatars, but there were TARTARs, and the country that existed up to the XNUMXth century inclusive and included the territories of modern Russia, and which occupied almost half of the entire continent of Eurasia, was called, they say, "Tartaria".
              But let's not throw out the child with the water, gentlemen, Compatriots, but we'll figure it out. `
              The words of Russians and other ancient chroniclers have come down to us that both western and eastern from us, from free Russia and Eurasia-Tataria, despots - the enemies of our Horde ancestors - were terribly afraid of the word "Tatars", and even now, see, it does not give them rest ...
              And so many, following some, began to rename Great Tartary in the Western European (Latin, French, English) manner - "Tartarus".
              They took the fashion, or some special campaign went - now they try to replace Tatars everywhere with "tartar". Like "it was a people like that," tartars ", not related to the Tatars."
              In fact, this is not the case. "Tartar" (Tartar) is a word in Latin (in the language of interethnic communication of Catholics around the world), as well as in English, French, etc. it meant, and even now, for many it means "Tatars" (namely, a representative of the corresponding people). For example, just like "Rushen" means "Russian" in English. And in Latin "Russian" will be like this: "Rashan".
              In fact, the widespread "name" tartar "- played in every possible way by the official" historians on the Tatars ", along with other negative" declension "(and poor" translations-interpretations ") of the name" Tatars "- originates from the publications of the English Catholic Matthew Parisian (1240s), terribly frightened, like all his fellow Catholics, by the invasion of the Horde in Western Europe.
              This was done by the Horde in revenge for the Crusades to Russia, so that these campaigns would no longer be repeated. Since Matthew “wrote as he heard”, he was forced to write in English, and it was “Tartar”, since in English, if you write “Tatar”, it will turn out when reading: “teitar”.
            2. Mangel olys
              Mangel olys April 16 2016 21: 19
              +1
              Well, after that the readers and followers of Matthew's work (yes, it seems he himself - maybe someone suggested) and "developed the theme", interpreting Matthew's "Tartar" as "messengers of the underworld", etc. "
              It is worth saying here, apparently, at the suggestion of some Tatar officials, who have been crying since the beginning of post-Soviet times in the West, that they, "cultural Bulgars", are generally offended in life-history, they call them names like Tatars and Tartars, the Americans and the British began to write the word Tartar means "Tatar, Tatar"), in their own language also "Tatar". But a natural English-speaking, not aware of this problem, will read it as "Tatar", and the word "Tatar" in his own language will write "Tartar".
              In English there is an interesting old saying: "to catch a Tartar" - means "to suffer a clear defeat, to get thrashed." And here is the literal translation of this saying: "to run into a Tatar." It is interesting that in the electronic on-line dictionaries widespread on the Internet, such subtleties of English (however, and other Romano-Germanic languages) are almost not reflected.

              (according to the contents of the book "The Heritage of the Tatars", authors G. Yenikeev, Sh. Kitabchy): http://tartareurasia.ucoz.com/publ/knigi_enikeeva_gr/ ..
        2. Taras_77.
          Taras_77. April 17 2016 20: 15
          0
          So that’s why you’re going to switch to the Latin alphabet, you’re watching it. laughing
    3. The comment was deleted.
  • c3r
    c3r April 16 2016 06: 20
    +8
    Yes, the helmets of the Mongols on the miniature are strangely similar to the Russian pointed helmets. And the chain mail is not rooted to the helmet, but is dressed like a shirt with a hood and long sleeves. Maybe these are the first pictures on the theme of "Russians are coming", so to speak, the first mention of information war? And the Poles, as usual in their repertoire, will get it in the head, and then they call it a victory. It's just amazing this ability to turn everything upside down. We need to learn, otherwise we will win ourselves, and then we begin to tie up half the world to our victory, and they are already happy to be the sole winners.
    1. King, just king
      King, just king April 16 2016 09: 05
      0
      If you find fault with the picture, then more on the felt helmets of the Scythians (characteristic forward bend) from jewelry and ancient ceramics.

      And on this modern miniature "Episode of the Battle of Lignitz - a counterattack of the Mongols on the knights of the Teutonic Order." - the artist generally burns. In one group, a horse archer, a lightly armed horseman and heavily armed Mongol horsemen are on the attack.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 16 2016 09: 57
        0
        Yes, this drawing from the Osprey publication in England always always caused me great doubts. However, a book was published there ... no matter what author, where the text dealt with the battle of Kalka, but in the figure the Mongol pulled an arrow from the throat of a killed Russian warrior amid snow and ice! Well ... so, until a certain point, they inaccurately wrote about this and had an idea.
  • Conrad
    Conrad April 16 2016 06: 43
    +2
    Apparently, the author of the picture not only never saw Asian nomads himself, but also did not communicate with those who saw them. The funny thing is that they have on the banner - an image of a man of clearly European appearance and in a European crown.

    Quote: c3r
    I beg you, do not show this German miniature to the Fomenkovites - they are still after the icon of the late 17th century. didn't let go

    Well, we ourselves, of course, will be smarter than contemporaries. And we know better who looked like in those years far from us. And the farther these years from us, the better we know. And they could teach foolish eyewitnesses.
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol April 16 2016 07: 09
      +10
      I will disappoint you, but the artist of the 15th century could not remember the events of the 13th century request As for his "artistic talent", in his time they already painted like this
      1. shoemaker
        shoemaker April 16 2016 17: 39
        0
        Extraordinary beauty, where to find one in me. Poison the soul, honestly.
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol April 16 2016 18: 05
          0
          Uffizi Gallery, Florence. And I happened to be there. Beautiful yes repeat
        2. King, just king
          King, just king April 16 2016 20: 12
          0
          Oh, b., "Zapatero" - two months have passed since communication, everything is in the penal battalion. What is so?
    2. kalibr
      kalibr April 16 2016 07: 26
      +4
      Yes, they could ... in some cases (it was written about them in VO). And in some, they are right. The question is how to distinguish a gag? Here in the figure in the title, the crossbowman falls from the horse ... Well, nonsense! Because in 1241, crossbows with a leg stretched from hooks on a belt had already spread. With manual disappeared, as ineffective. Knights could use crossbows against infidels, but ... they themselves considered them unworthy weapons. And if this is not a knight, then he could not sit on a horse. And if a knight, then he could not be with such a bad crossbow. The artist did not know such trifles and the author did not pay attention to them either!
      1. Riv
        Riv April 16 2016 08: 13
        +2
        I do not agree. Tatars went all over Russia, collecting good trophies. And in Russia, just before the invasion, such self-arrows with manual tension were common. And a lot after, by the way, too. I saw a similar machine in the museum of local lore dating back to the 16th century. Weapon armament.

        Could some Tatar "from the plow, for a while" arm himself with trophies? He could have. Could a Pole take this trophy away from a Tatar? Sure. Well, there is no need to talk about pointed Russian helmets - even the temnik was not ashamed to wear them.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr April 16 2016 09: 52
          0
          History cannot be built on exceptions! You say this could be? Probably, especially since it happens that a girl dies, her husband dies, and lives with a widow. But this does not mean that this happens all the time, right?
          1. Riv
            Riv April 16 2016 13: 37
            +1
            Well Duc! .. And you can bring about five more explanations for this crossbow, quite reasonable. But why? This is an artist, he sees so. :)
        2. Cro-Magnon
          Cro-Magnon April 16 2016 22: 20
          0
          All the commentators also forgot that even if we follow the canonical theory of the Mongol-Tatar invasion, we must remember the system of formation of the army from subjugated or subjugated peoples ... i.e. the army in that battle was a combined team and basically consisted of Russians, Bulgars, Polovtsy and other peoples ... and what do you think that the Russians went into battle under the wolf totems and not under the banners? And instead of a crescent, the Bulgars painted on the Buddha’s banners?
      2. Riv
        Riv April 16 2016 08: 31
        +7
        But I'm more interested in the other side of the issue. A fragment from the tomb of the knight Henry the Pious who fell under Legnica (the divine were divorced, it was time to reduce the population ...)
        Who is this in a thoughtful pose? Tatar???
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol April 16 2016 09: 19
          +3
          Of course Tatar - it is clearly written there! (though the inscription was made in the 19th century, but who cares request )
          1. Riv
            Riv April 16 2016 13: 34
            +1
            Dude in a coffin also died in the 19th century?
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol April 16 2016 16: 53
              0
              dude died in the 13th century. that's just stole the coffin request he is not real. and the inscription of the 19th century
        2. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak April 16 2016 09: 22
          +4
          Riv "Who is this in a brooding pose? Tartar ???"
          Yes, no one))) It seems to me that the author of this opus did not see the Tatars in the eye. Blinded from the Poles dressed up in Malachai))) and vparil some sort of a big knife in his hands.
          Although we can talk about the Tatars?)))
          1. Riv
            Riv April 16 2016 13: 41
            +4
            Well, this is not a Tatar, definitely. This is Tatar.
            And why did you get the idea that the Tatars phenotype has not changed over the course of half a century? The genetic lines of peoples have repeatedly crossed and the modern Tatar is not very similar to his distant ancestor. Like modern Russian in its own way.
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak April 16 2016 16: 25
              0
              = Riv "Well, this is not a Tatar, definitely. This is a Tatar."
              Reminded.))) A Tuvan without a knife is not a Tuvan. A - Tuvinian.)))
              I didn’t take anything))) and nothing has changed there. Not ... well, fantasies of course may be present))) But the Bulgars as they were and remained.
              A picture of this elfistoriki constantly poke. I already think that they painted this picture. Joke. This picture is not on paper? Once on a tombstone means carved from stone. And it seems to me much later than the funeral of this pious dude. And the painter albo the artist as he wanted and painted. Similarly, cards with great tartaria were painted and believed in the existence of various monsters and other crap.
              1. Riv
                Riv April 16 2016 19: 26
                0
                From the Bulgars there was a shish, and a reed, even when Batu walked over them. All their attempts to portray something like this at the national level are nothing more than the clowning of modern Cossacks. What surrenders to you is of no interest to anyone. If it seems, then it is necessary to be baptized.

                Henry II really led the Polish army in the battle of Legnica. This is written by more than one source, and not two. Everything is well documented. The monastery itself in Wroclaw, where the tombstone is located, was founded just a few years before the battle. The prince's grave was one of his attractions. The fact that the "coffin is not real" is a bullshit. Well, or an attempt at Petrosyan trolling.
                1. tlauicol
                  tlauicol April 16 2016 19: 55
                  +1
                  the problem is that:

                  1. the inscription on the tombstones about the Tatars was made in the 19th century

                  2. the coffin itself and the remains of GB lost
                  1. Riv
                    Riv April 17 2016 12: 10
                    0
                    The source is in the studio.
                2. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak April 16 2016 20: 06
                  +1
                  = Riv "Shish and reeds remained from the Bulgars."
                  Yeah, you tell the locals in Kazan.))) I would have looked at this action. They clearly distinguish who is from whom. Who is from the Bulgars. And who is from the Horde - relatively speaking. It is unknown to you and in surprise. Kazakhs generally have shezhire-pedigrees. Everything is clearly traceable from where.
                  = Riv "What you surrender - nobody cares. If it seems, then you need to be baptized."
                  Do not monkey with me.)))
                  I understand you are trying to match the profile picture.))) I still communicate normally with you. In the sense of not rude and will not be from the rude.)))
                  Riv "The fact that the" coffin is not real "is a bullshit."
                  And where did I indicate that the coffin is not real? Tombstone made of stone or not?))) If it is made of stone, then it takes time to make it. Does it indicate the year of manufacture?))) Made in?)))
                  Seriously, discussing the image of a pecking man on a grave of a deceased pious comrade-graph who died in a Bose is full of crap.
                  All the best.
                  1. Riv
                    Riv April 17 2016 12: 28
                    -1
                    I’ll tell you a terrible secret (just don’t tell anyone): the Kazan Tatars do not give a damn about the attempts of individual representatives of the people long ago dissolved among them to stir something up on the topic of self-determination. And why, in fact, should they care about those whom their distant ancestors rubbed into bloody mud? As long as the descendants of the vanquished sit quietly, let them sit. But if one of them allows himself something serious, then he will get sick literally right away. Tatarstan must admit that Bulgaria has the right to exist - it will then be necessary to set aside territory, share autonomy ... What else!

                    In Kazan, by the way, I served just at the time when all sorts of "ittikhaks" and "bulgars" began to raise their tails and gather in crowds. The audience was completely schizoid. Perhaps even uglier than the current Svidomites. Our team calmed them down.

                    About the sarcophagus - I read your nonsense. The fact that hundreds of people saw it, of course, does not mean anything. And in general: he was stolen! .. :)
        3. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak April 16 2016 09: 24
          +2
          or so. These are models.))) I assure you there are Tatars more similar to Russians than some Russians.)))
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak April 16 2016 09: 28
            +4
            Here is another representative of the Tatar people.))) Elvira Sabirova. Let's talk about Caucasians and Asians?)))
            1. Amestigon
              Amestigon April 16 2016 10: 00
              +3
              Mongol-Tatars name is very conditional. In reality, there were relatively few Mongols themselves. The bulk of the troops were representatives of the conquered nomadic peoples. And there were hundreds of them. Alans, Polovtsy, Kipchaks, Bulgars, Bashkirs, etc. As for the modern Tatars, many believe that they have nothing to do with the Mongol-Tatars and come from the Volga Bulgars. However, there is no consensus on this issue.
              1. Oprychnik
                Oprychnik April 16 2016 13: 25
                +1
                "As for the modern Tatars, many believe that they have nothing to do with the Mongol-Tatars at all and come from the Volga Bulgars. However, there is no consensus on this issue."

                It is believed that the Kazan Tatars began to refer to themselves as such only at the end of the XNUMXth century. The other day I read just such a study.
                http://www.bash-portal.ru/news/newshistory/4647-interesnyy-sluchay-kak-tatary-ba
                shkirami-okazalis.html
                Quote: Since the ethnonym “Tatars” is the fruit of the activities of certain individuals, that is, it is a product of constructivism, the question arises: what were the ancestors of Kazan Tatars called in the past? This issue has worried many generations of researchers. The fact is that in the few sources written by the inhabitants of the Kazan Khanate themselves, the Tatars are not mentioned. For example, in the petition of “the whole Kazan land”, filed in 1551 to Ivan IV, only “Chuvash and Cheremis and Mordovians and Tarkhans and Mozhars” appear
                Anyone interested, you can follow the link.
                1. Spnsr
                  Spnsr April 16 2016 15: 53
                  +1
                  Quote: Oprychnik
                  It is believed that the Kazan Tatars began to refer to themselves as such only at the end of the XNUMXth century. The other day I read just such a study.

                  it’s just about the fact that even under Ivan 4 the population was called Tataravia, though all of them, and the kind that we now have is the work of the late 18th and early 19th centuries!
              2. co-creator
                co-creator April 16 2016 16: 01
                +2
                Quote: Amestigon
                that they have nothing to do with the Mongol-Tatars and come from the Volga Bulgars

                and there is . They still have the self-name of the Bulgars. There are simply most Bulgar-Europioids and there are a minority of Mongol-Tatars. In my city there has been a large diaspora of the Tatars since the 17th century and thousands of people come to their holiday Sabntui. Most europioids, but Asian people are very few. Well, many Tatars are generally Russian, as there are many mixed marriages.
              3. Aposlya
                Aposlya April 16 2016 16: 29
                0
                there were never any Mongols in that army at all, only Turkic tribes ...
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator April 16 2016 16: 37
                  0
                  Quote: Aposlya
                  there were never any Mongols in that army at all, only Turkic tribes.

                  And the Turkic military has never been. Most likely a joint campaign of Rus and Turks.
                  1. Spnsr
                    Spnsr April 16 2016 19: 35
                    0
                    Quotation: blooded man
                    Quote: Aposlya
                    there were never any Mongols in that army at all, only Turkic tribes.

                    And the Turkic military has never been. Most likely a joint campaign of Rus and Turks.

                    you just answer yourself the question, why are there so many so-called Turks of a completely European appearance, despite the fact that there is no impurity of someone else there?
                    for example, for me there is one answer, and it lies in the last century, when the Turkic-speaking tribes spoke, and these are different types of people. and external differences most often mature from the habitat and occupation
                    and if we add here that the description of nationalities, at least the population of the Russian Empire, begins at the end of the 18th century and lasts literally the entire 19th century, as well as that the beliefs of the described nationalities were tribal in the middle of the 17th century, and it often happened that they were based on the worship of ancestors, an ancestor, then history in its modern interpretation is exposed, and creates another skeleton.
                    it does not need to be written off, it just takes on a different look by itself! for example, mention of the Western Slavs, Eastern Slavs, Southern Slavs (I do not approve of the Slavs, perhaps this later name in general, as such!) is consonant with the white, gold and blue hordes! it's short in general terms ...
                    then a language, to take consonances in languages ​​similar in meaning, which are called borrowings, to assume (to take as a basis) that this is a way out of one common language, then you can even come to the conclusion that there was one empire on the territory! which began to crumble in the Middle Ages, despite the fact that each new breakaway fell under the influence of the first breakaways with a formed internal political system and system of influence, moreover, these formed, let's call them states, torn new territories from the whole empire and often not by military force, but by politics and information, possibly creating a national identity that was opposed to a large state !!!
                    1. Aposlya
                      Aposlya April 16 2016 20: 39
                      +2
                      Quote: SpnSr
                      it does not need to be written off, it just takes on a different look by itself! for example, mention of the Western Slavs, Eastern Slavs, Southern Slavs (I do not approve of the Slavs, perhaps this later name in general, as such!) is consonant with the white, gold and blue hordes! it's short in general terms ...


                      Well, here you are at all in Fomenkovism! Let it be known to you that Ak Horde, that is, the White Horde is actually the name of the Horde in Middle Asia. Kok Horde is the Blue Horde in Siberia near Kuchum Khan. Well, the Golden Horde is the ulus of Jochi Khan, the eldest son of Genghis Khan. He is again buried in Kazakhstan in the Karaganda region:

                      By the way, the government in Kazakhstan is called Ak Orda, i.e. The White Horde, as the legal successor ...
                      1. Spnsr
                        Spnsr April 16 2016 22: 06
                        +1
                        Quote: Aposlya
                        By the way, the government in Kazakhstan is called Ak Orda, i.e. The White Horde, as the legal successor ...

                        I will not dispute your speculation, just a replica: a fragment of the White Horde - Belarus! sometimes they even emphasize the Western Slavs ...
                      2. Aposlya
                        Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 57
                        +1
                        Quote: SpnSr
                        I will not dispute your speculation, just a replica: a fragment of the White Horde - Belarus! sometimes they even emphasize the Western Slavs ...

                        WHAT? !!!! What nonsense !!!!
                        For your information, Belarus doesn’t belong to the Horde in any way! Since she was part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which the Horde never entered and was not conquered! fellow
                      3. Cartalon
                        Cartalon April 16 2016 23: 07
                        0
                        Yes lan schaz, I’ll prove to you how to relate with two fingers. You here have just proved that the Rus are Türks, so White Russia is clearly a matter of the Horde, moreover, the Rus ambassadors returning from Constantinople through Germany seem to have been Swedes in 841, then the Swedes are also Türks from here, then the Vikings are brave, they are Türks, and since Swedes Turks, then Goths Turks, further themselves ancient Egypt bring there
                      4. Aposlya
                        Aposlya April 16 2016 23: 13
                        0
                        not proven! laughing

                        Well, about the Swedes ... Here's an interesting article:
                        http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/FauxDKGeneticLinkOfVikingE

                        n.htm
                        There is also a translation into Russian ...
                      5. co-creator
                        co-creator April 17 2016 03: 45
                        +1
                        So APOSLYA proves. that Genghis Khan is Kazakh. Are you of the same blood and both fathers of democracy? wassat
                    2. Spnsr
                      Spnsr April 16 2016 23: 33
                      +1
                      in general, we are talking about the territory that now there is the European Union!
                      Golden Horde - Russia, Blue Horde - Ottoman Port
                    3. Aposlya
                      Aposlya April 17 2016 00: 02
                      0
                      Quote: SpnSr
                      in general, we are talking about the territory that now there is the European Union!
                      Golden Horde - Russia, Blue Horde - Ottoman Port

                      Russia did not enter the Golden Horde, as it was vassal to it and formed the Zalesskaya Horde. On the territory of modern Russia, Tatarstan (Bulgar) and Siberia were part of the Golden Horde. The Golden Horde is the territory of the Jochi Khan ulus, and not the subsequent conquest of the Tatars.
                      The Ottoman port never entered any Blue Horde at all! Where do you get this from ?! The Blue Horde is the eastern part of the Golden Horde after its collapse, i.e. Siberia! You should at least open the same wiki, there’s even infa with pictures and maps, if you don’t look at more serious sources ...
                    4. co-creator
                      co-creator April 17 2016 03: 48
                      +1
                      Quote: Aposlya
                      Russia did not enter the Golden Horde, as it was vassal to it and formed the Zalesskaya Horde.

                      How was vassalism implemented? So all the same, the horde is not only a Turkic concept.
                    5. Spnsr
                      Spnsr April 17 2016 07: 06
                      +1
                      Quotation: blooded man
                      Quote: Aposlya
                      Russia did not enter the Golden Horde, as it was vassal to it and formed the Zalesskaya Horde.

                      How was vassalism implemented? So all the same, the horde is not only a Turkic concept.

                      in German there is still such a word
                      the

                      Order

                      order, putting in order, ordering, systematization, system, device
                      in english order

                      order, order, order, order, order, warrant
                    6. Aposlya
                      Aposlya April 17 2016 16: 07
                      0
                      Quotation: blooded man
                      How was vassalism implemented? So all the same, the horde is not only a Turkic concept.

                      Take at least once textbooks or historical essays, read what? Or has Fomenko completely grown in the attic and can’t fit anything else?
                    7. co-creator
                      co-creator April 17 2016 17: 37
                      +1
                      Quote: Aposlya
                      Take at least once textbooks or historical essays, read what?

                      I read them hundreds of times and so I ask.
                      In world history, there is no exception and vassality passes in two ways about which I already wrote to you. In Russia there were not both. So I ask.

                      How funny you are. As soon as you like the official version, you send it to the textbook, as soon as you start to come up with fairy tales and refer to some of your sources. Dude decide in the end you either criticize the whole story or do not expose anything.
            2. co-creator
              co-creator April 17 2016 03: 46
              0
              Quote: Aposlya
              WHAT? !!!! What nonsense !!!!

              You have delirium in the form of a Kazakh Genghis Khan. So sit and be silent.
            3. Spnsr
              Spnsr April 17 2016 12: 20
              +1
              there are three competing orders on the planet, Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Islam!
              if the first two have withdrawn from participation in the board, and have taken on the role of spiritual control of the population, then Islam, or rather some of its representatives, are trying to actively use the fruits of the changes laid down in the 17-18 centuries .... by the way, the beginning of this period just falls on period of turmoil in the Golden Horde! and the completion was accounted for by the expansion of the empire by the Romanovs .... but the seed was laid, somewhere this gave the Romanovs the opportunity to divide the remains of a large state into separate small ones, including the appearance of all nationalities that appeared on the territory of the Russian Empire, including the emergence of the republics of Central Asia, which the Communists did not use to take advantage ...
            4. Aposlya
              Aposlya April 17 2016 16: 09
              0
              Quote: SpnSr
              there are three competing orders on the planet, Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Islam!

              and Buddhism, shamanism, Judaism, Shintoism and other Alawites do not count?
            5. Spnsr
              Spnsr April 17 2016 17: 20
              +1
              Quote: Aposlya
              and Buddhism, shamanism, Judaism, Shintoism and other Alawites do not count?

              judging by the fact that real objectively visible competition can be traced only among the aforementioned, the likelihood is close that the ones you listed were an excuse to tear off the territory from the original, by substituting values!
    3. Taras_77.
      Taras_77. April 16 2016 23: 02
      +1
      Why so sure, why not consider another option?
    4. Taras_77.
      Taras_77. April 16 2016 23: 03
      0
      With a snapshot of this mausoleum, do you want to emphasize the grandeur of your ancient cities?
    5. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 16 2016 23: 16
      0
      You my friend are sick with trolism ... see the holidays at school?

      This is just a picture of the mausoleum on the grave of Jochi Khan. What is not clear then? Brains except trolling for anything missing?
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 17 2016 03: 43
    0
    Quote: Aposlya
    By the way, the government in Kazakhstan is called Ak Orda, i.e. The White Horde, as the legal successor.

    Kazavkhtanshchina went worse than Fomenkovshchina
    Quote: Aposlya
    Let it be known to you that Ak Horde, that is, the White Horde is actually the name of the Horde in Middle Asia. Kok Horde is the Blue Horde in Siberia near Kuchum Khan. Well, the Golden Horde is the ulus of Jochi Khan,

    What does your Kazakh national horde have to do with what people wrote? White Horde and Ak Horde. Do you not see the difference in words or do you like Fomenko substitute your translation and similarity where is it profitable for you? wassat
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 17 2016 16: 11
    0
    Quotation: blooded man
    What does your

    I repeat once again - learn the materiel! winked
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 17 2016 17: 40
    +1
    Quote: Aposlya
    I repeat once again - learn the materiel!

    So you don’t give a link to it. In our scientific materiel about the Kazakhs and their hordes there is nothing. I'm talking about official materiel.

    Drive the link.
  • Mangel olys
    Mangel olys April 16 2016 19: 26
    +1
    Quote: Aposlya
    there were never any Mongols in that army at all, only Turkic tribes ...

    Right! The empire was called the Mongol Empire (politonym), it consisted of different peoples, mainly from the Turks. For example, the Soviet Union with different nationalities.
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 16 2016 20: 42
      +1
      Quote: Mangel Olys
      Right! The empire was called the Mongol Empire (politonym), it consisted of different peoples, mainly from the Turks. For example, the Soviet Union with different nationalities.

      I think all the same, not Mongolian, but Mughal. The same Mogulistan was formed just after the death of Genghis Khan in the 14th century and it was formed by those tribes that were originally with him as part of the Genghis Khan ulus according to the list of Rashid Ad Din.
      Although of course in this empire who was not there ...
      1. Mangel olys
        Mangel olys April 16 2016 21: 09
        +1
        The designers of the false “scientific history of the Mongols” inflicted a lot of confusion and lies in order to steal most of the common history of the fraternal Turkic peoples.

        THERE is the main KEY to the most important, though hidden from us, stage of the history of modern fraternal Turkic peoples, and indeed many, many modern Russians, this key will help to understand how historical writers-ideologists deceived and deceive us, hiding our united and glorious history, so that -who was easier to disconnect, bleed and crush us:

        There is a lot of evidence that the native people of Chyngyz Khan was undoubtedly one of the Turkic peoples, whose descendants are now among many fraternal Turkic peoples, as well as among modern Russians, but this information is hiding from us to this day ...

        And most importantly, they hide the fact that in fact the name "Mongol" ("Mongols") was in the Middle Ages and up to the 17th century a political name (like the name "Soviet"), from the name of the state "Mangel Olys" - on Old Tatar "Eternal Power". But the name "Tatars" - it was an ethnonym, as it is now, and it was the name and self-name of "the people in which Chyngyz Khan was born" (the Russian orientalist V.P. Vasiliev wrote this back in the 19th century, on the basis of ancient oriental sources translated by him, but his works were hidden from us).

        With information about the native people of Chyngyz Khan, received by V.P. Vasiliev, consistent a lot of historiography, for example:
        "Tatars are a large Turkic people, their king is Chyngyz-khan" (Arab Ibn-Al-Athir, 1221)
        "The emperor of the Tatars - Genghis Khan, has no royal origin, he is the son of a simple Tatar tenth Ezukai" (Chinese Meng-hun, 1220, translated by V.P. Vasiliev).
        "... in 1187 the Tatars, having gathered from all over the world, chose a king for themselves, he was called in their language Chyngyz-khan ..." (Italian Marco Polo, 13th century, moreover, he lived 17 years, as he himself wrote , AMONG THE TATARS, moreover, among the top leadership of the Tatar-Horde).

        And there is still a lot of evidence that the native people of Chyngyz Khan was undoubtedly one of the Turkic peoples, whose descendants are now among many fraternal Turkic peoples, but this information, as I mentioned above, hides from us until now ...

        Representatives of this people - the Tatars of Chyngyz Khan - were once ONE PEOPLE, but now their descendants are scattered among many modern fraternal Turkic peoples, as well as among modern Russians, as a result of centuries-long anti-Tatar and anti-Horde politics and the propaganda of their opponents.

        But they still have many common features and properties, the main of which is CHINGISM (CHYGYZLYK). Read about all this in this book: http://tartareurasia.ucoz.com/publ/knigi_enikeeva_gr/ ..
        1. Cartalon
          Cartalon April 16 2016 21: 22
          0
          Lord, another anti-Turk conspiracy
        2. Aposlya
          Aposlya April 16 2016 22: 29
          0
          Quote: Cartalon
          Lord, another anti-Turk conspiracy


          it seems that Peter I issued a decree to destroy the monuments of Basurman, etc. according to the text...
        3. co-creator
          co-creator April 17 2016 03: 53
          +2
          Quote: Aposlya
          it seems that Peter I issued a decree to destroy the monuments of Basurman, etc. according to the text...

          Fomenko says the decree was to destroy old Russian monuments. shot down the murals. Lord, who should I believe? Well, of course, they better know the Kazakhs and Russian history of the Kazakhs)))
        4. Aposlya
          Aposlya April 17 2016 16: 12
          0
          Quotation: blooded man
          Fomenko says ...

          Frankly, I don’t care what this freak says ....
        5. co-creator
          co-creator April 17 2016 17: 32
          +1
          Quote: Aposlya
          Frankly, I don’t care what this freak says ....

          Give a link to your freak, he told you about the decrees of Peter on the demolition of Turkic monuments.
        6. The comment was deleted.
  • Spnsr
    Spnsr April 17 2016 16: 06
    +2
    Quote: Mangel Olys
    And there is still a lot of evidence that the native people of Chyngyz Khan was undoubtedly one of the Turkic peoples
    we are reading the same story! but what I wanted to emphasize, it would be more correct to write Turkic-speaking peoples, and this is the minimum, a large number of nationalities and peoples, which by the way identified these ethnic groups in the late 18th and 19th centuries!
    moreover, like the Russian language, in the form in which we have it, Turkic begins to appear in the 16-17th centuries, if everything is more or less visible by nationalities and nationalities in the Russian Empire, then the language is a little more complicated, there may be messages to the fact that after the collapse of a large state in Eurasia (a kind of federalization, but it seems more like a game of heirs), and the emergence of three new ones, after changing dynasties, and indeed the alienation of kinship through generations, everyone begins to pull a blanket over himself, hence “Kazan took, Astrakhan b scored, but didn’t take a hat. "....
    the same can be said of the split of the great Hordes, which were objectively under the rule of the descendants of Augustus, who also did not mind snatching a piece from the deceased ruler (brother, relative), the history of wars of the 16-19 centuries, until the change of dynasties to " outside rulers ”, but the wars continued to split large empires, such as the Russo-Ottoman wars, where the Ottoman Empire was crushed, from which Turkey eventually formed in the 20s of the last century! for the Ottoman Empire, Ataturk, like Poroshenko for Ukraine (a somewhat unequal example, but if you think about it, you can see what it is about)
    from time to time all the hordes were sold out and gathered, for example, Europe from the time of Napoleon, Hitler (Hitler is a somewhat difficult example, but his theory of pure race is the same as in Turkey the birthright of Turks and Ukrainians in Ukraine!), and all post-Soviet republics have the same theme. ....
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 17 2016 16: 30
    0
    Quote: SpnSr
    but what I wanted to emphasize, it would be more correct to write Turkic-speaking peoples

    those. Based on your words, no Slavs ever existed, but were and are only Slavic-speaking peoples?
  • Spnsr
    Spnsr April 17 2016 17: 43
    0
    Quote: Aposlya
    those. Based on your words, no Slavs ever existed, but were and are only Slavic-speaking peoples?

    moreover, most likely, the first real name of the Slavs was made during the Romanovs, there was still no Russian Empire in the form in which it was investigated, and the Romanovs still ruled no further than the territory of Muscovy, and the theory of Slavs contributed to the primary unification of territories adjacent to Muscovy! I’ll add, by the way, at this beginning of the period of turmoil, the Ottoman Empire was still trying to tidy up the territory of the Golden Horde, which we will later see as the Russian Empire, by converting to Islam, read when Islam came to the territory of the Republic of Ingushetia!
    which contributed to the impetus of the Romanovs and the rulers of Europe (once the White Russia - the White Horde) to act in the same ways relatively large and expanding at the expense of the Golden Horde territory ... this is the emergence of new religions and the emergence of new nationalities .... and so on until today days !!!
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon April 16 2016 11: 44
    +1
    Well, they discovered America directly, but this is still the Volga Tatars, who have been living with the Russians for 1000 years
  • marshes
    marshes April 16 2016 12: 17
    +2
    Quote: Nagaibak
    Here is another representative of the Tatar people.)))

    You haven’t seen my nieces yet. smile Kazakh-Mari-Jewish, Polish blood. Europiodes, not even a hint of Asian dominant genes, just a character. laughing
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 16 2016 16: 05
      +1
      Oh, Kazakh women with such genes are simply beautiful.
      1. marshes
        marshes April 16 2016 16: 12
        0
        Quotation: blooded man
        Oh, Kazakh women with such genes are simply beautiful.

        There are a lot of suitors, they sorted out the older one. And then Yu.Koreets was spinning, I said that she would send her mother-in-law to the onion plantation after the wedding. laughing So she went for a local ... She was younger in Germany, but there her relatives were watching over her.
        And the rest are small. smile
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 16 2016 15: 57
    +1
    Let's talk. Who told you that the Tatars are Mongol Asians?
    1. Aposlya
      Aposlya April 16 2016 16: 32
      +1
      Well, for example, the Tatars of the Chateau, who live in China and whom some scientists stubbornly make dead (well, how did Genghis Khan cut them all out) are very Mongoloid! laughing
      1. Cartalon
        Cartalon April 16 2016 16: 35
        0
        Chateau is the same if memory serves, direct descendants of the southern Huns?
        1. Aposlya
          Aposlya April 16 2016 16: 49
          +1
          Quote: Cartalon
          Chateau is the same if memory serves, direct descendants of the southern Huns?

          All Turks are the descendants of the Huns or Huns.
          And Tatars Chateau is one of the Toguz Tatars or Otuz Tatars tribes that were mentioned on the Kultegin stele from the 8th century A.D. - Prince of the Eastern Turkic Haganate.
      2. co-creator
        co-creator April 16 2016 18: 12
        +1
        Quote: Aposlya
        Well, for example, the Tatars of the Chateau, who live in China and whom some scientists stubbornly make dead (well, how did Genghis Khan cut them all out) are very Mongoloid!

        Therefore. that all Tatars are Mongoloids?
        And it’s not clear what relation the Chinese Tatars have to our Tatar laughing
        1. Aposlya
          Aposlya April 16 2016 19: 47
          +1
          Quotation: blooded man
          And it’s not clear what relation the Chinese Tatars have to our Tatar

          Both those and those Turks ...

          You see, from this it follows that all those who are now called Tatars do not have only one anthropological trait, which can change in one or two generations, depends only on women giving birth to offspring.
          Tatars can be both Mongoloid and Caucasoid ... Which, in principle, is characteristic of all Türks. Compare Caucasian Turks - Karachais and Kumyks. Some are Caucasian, others are Mongoloid. Or compare the Nogais and the Gagauz? The same difference.
          1. co-creator
            co-creator April 16 2016 20: 34
            +1
            Quote: Aposlya
            only one anthropological trait, which can change in one or two generations, depends only on women giving birth to offspring

            I do not agree with this.
            Quote: Aposlya
            Tatars can be both Mongoloid and Caucasoid ... Which, in principle, is characteristic of all Türks.

            Of course . Only here it is impossible to confuse the Tatars-Bulgar and Kazakhs.
            1. marshes
              marshes April 16 2016 20: 59
              0
              Quotation: blooded man
              Of course . Only here it is impossible to confuse the Tatars-Bulgar and Kazakhs.

              Well, they called me Tatar, but what about ashen hair, green eyes, light, a little bit Mongoloid. laughing The truth is still a "correct" nose.
              True, Kazakh father, southerner-Dulat, mother of Mari.
              So i'm tormented m aryan laughing
            2. co-creator
              co-creator April 17 2016 02: 57
              +1
              Quote: marshes
              a little bit mongoloid.

              You are a Mongoloid or not, you have to decide.
          2. Aposlya
            Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 40
            +1
            Quotation: blooded man
            I do not agree with this.


            Take a Russian from near Voronezh, he marries a Mongolian woman or a Japanese woman ... What do you think, who will their children look like if it is well known that the Mongolian gene is dominant, i.e. more powerful.
            Or here's an example. The son of a Russian Cossack, his mother is a Kazakh from the Argyn tribe, the genus Karakesek:

            By the way, this is General Lavr Kornilov ... As we can see on the Slav from Ryazan in general, by no means. Those. in one generation, a completely different antrotype.
          3. co-creator
            co-creator April 17 2016 03: 08
            +2
            Quote: Aposlya
            Take a Russian from near Voronezh, he marries a Mongolian woman or a Japanese woman ... What do you think, who will their children look like if it is well known that the Mongolian gene is dominant, i.e. more powerful.

            On europioid, maximum with narrow eyes. There are many such Russians. He will not become any Mongoloid. Look at the Kazakh women with Russian roots. Very beautiful young ladies, but still Asian. Take Russian girls with Asian roots, also very beautiful girls but still Europeans.

            Quote: Aposlya
            The son of a Russian Cossack, his mother is a Kazakh from the Argyn tribe, the genus Karakesek:

            By the way, this is General Lavr Kornilov ...

            I will upset you, but he has a Kalmyk mother. And I don’t need your rumors about clans and tribes. His biography has been studied along and across and we Russians know better who his mother is.
            Kazakhs have already gone crazy completely.

            Quote: Aposlya
            Those. in one generation, a completely different antrotype

            What are the others? Before us is a europioid with narrow eyes, in the next generation, and the eyes will already be normal.
          4. Aposlya
            Aposlya April 17 2016 16: 18
            0
            Quotation: blooded man
            On europioid, maximum with narrow eyes.

            This is the Mongoloid anthrotype. And there are not "narrow" eyes, but simply the presence of epicanthus - an additional fold. These are the Mongolian features ...
            Quotation: blooded man
            I will upset you, but he has a Kalmyk mother. And I don’t need your rumors about clans and tribes. His biography has been studied along and across and we Russians know better who his mother is.
            Kazakhs have already gone crazy completely.

            This is actually from the words of his sister ...
            mother L.G. Kornilova - Maria Ivanovna, mother Maryam - Kazakh from the genus Argyn-Karakasek. She studied at a parish school, at the age of fourteen she converted to Orthodoxy and began to be called Marya Ivanovna. At seventeen, Maryam met Cossack Georgy Kornilov and married him.

            So go crazy further, but do not drag others along! hi
          5. co-creator
            co-creator April 17 2016 17: 49
            +2
            Quote: Aposlya
            This is the Mongoloid anthrotype. And there are not "narrow" eyes, but simply the presence of epicanthus - an additional fold. These are the Mongolian features ...

            You have a mess in your head. Not Mongolian. and the Mongoloid and with one eye you will not be offended. Google what signs of Mongoloids and Europioids.

            Quote: Aposlya
            This is actually from the words of his sister ..

            Whose words are more significant than Kornilov or his sister?

            Quote: Aposlya
            So go crazy further, but do not drag others along!

            I don’t need texts from Wikipedia here. fellow According to Kornilov, many books, biographies have been written, AND UNLIKE you, no one is ill with Naziism from the authors.
          6. The comment was deleted.
          7. The comment was deleted.
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 16 2016 21: 43
    0
    Quotation: blooded man
    Of course . Only here it is impossible to confuse the Tatars-Bulgar and Kazakhs.

    This is because the Volga Tatars did not take Kalmyks as wives. But the Kazakhs in the 18th century took them to their second wives. This was facilitated by Ablai Khan, who urged Kalmyks to marry. Demography after the Dzungarian wars had to be replenished. It was in the Kazakh Khanate that the Tatar caravans of brides with Kalmyks stretched from the Volga.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 17 2016 03: 10
    0
    Quote: Aposlya
    Quotation: blooded man
    Of course . Only here it is impossible to confuse the Tatars-Bulgar and Kazakhs.

    This is because the Volga Tatars did not take Kalmyks as wives. But the Kazakhs in the 18th century took them to their second wives. This was facilitated by Ablai Khan, who urged Kalmyks to marry. Demography after the Dzungarian wars had to be replenished. It was in the Kazakh Khanate that the Tatar caravans of brides with Kalmyks stretched from the Volga.

    Fomenko is resting. We urgently need to inform the anthro-camps that the Kazakhs used to be Europioids.
  • Taras_77.
    Taras_77. April 17 2016 20: 56
    0
    Well you said that it was you who cut the jungar, or all the same ..... decide what you say BALA. And then you took the second wives, tell the Kalmyks, then they will unwind you laughing
  • Aposlya
    Aposlya April 16 2016 16: 29
    +1
    Or here is another famous Tatar by the name of Shaykhlislamov:
    1. Taras_77.
      Taras_77. April 17 2016 12: 25
      +1
      You’re calling me all the troll, but you’re definitely sick and incurably laughing
  • kalibr
    kalibr April 16 2016 12: 17
    0
    Here the issue of the reliability of the images on the column of Trajan has already been discussed. There are Sarmatians and their horses in scales to the hoofs! But the sculptor was a contemporary and could ask the soldiers of Trajan, how and what ...
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 16 2016 15: 49
    0
    Quote: Conrad
    Well, we ourselves, of course, will be smarter than contemporaries. And we know better who looked like in those years far from us. And the farther these years from us, the better we know. And they could teach foolish eyewitnesses.

    Well, in the 17th century they knew better what was in 13 and corrected incorrect drawings and texts. Normally.
  • parusnik
    parusnik April 16 2016 07: 46
    0
    Also known as the Battle of Wallstatt. Walstatt is the German version of the Polish "Legnitskoe Pole" or "Good Pole". Despite the victory, the Mongols did not advance further west, but turned south, through Moravia to Hungary to join forces with Batu, Kadan and Subudai. Moravia, mountainous, sparsely populated, strategically was not of interest to the Mongols. On the way, one of the flying units of Baydar Khan broke into German territory and reached Meissen, consigning the surrounding lands to fire and sword.
  • Vladivostok
    Vladivostok April 16 2016 08: 22
    +4
    Scheme of the initial phase of the Lignitz battle.

    Cadet Bigler's schemes were terribly primitive.
  • Yarik
    Yarik April 16 2016 08: 43
    -1
    Prince of Silesia Henry the Pious Tatar-Mongols captured and beheaded

    What is it? Between the bonfires of the monkeys refused to pass?
  • igorra
    igorra April 16 2016 09: 06
    0
    Apparently, the author of the picture not only never saw Asian nomads himself, but also did not communicate with those who saw them.
    Maybe not the Mongols attacked, but the descendants of the Scythians.
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon April 16 2016 09: 12
      +3
      Yeah, they’ve been sitting in ambush for a thousand years and then they came
  • V.ic
    V.ic April 16 2016 09: 08
    +2
    By the way, the gentlemen do not ascribe any alleged victory to themselves. When I was in the second half of the 80s of the last century, I had to periodically visit this city, and so I saw with my own eyes that on the memorial plaque / on the building opposite the railway station / there is an inscription "Defense of Legnicy" (obrona Legnicy).
    1. 26rus
      26rus April 16 2016 13: 51
      +1
      I want to add . About forty kilometers from Legnica, in the vicinity of Swidnica, there is a small monument that announces that this is the extreme point to which the Mongols reached the west. No military victory is mentioned on it. PS He served in Swidnica, he saw the monument more than once (he stands in the forest not far from the road).
  • Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b April 16 2016 09: 56
    -4
    Once again, I want to propose to Study the Slavic-Aryan Vedas. Not Tatar-Mongols, but Grand Tartary, on whose side the nomads fought. Their center, Belovodye, the city of Asgard Iriysky, was destroyed in 1541 and is in Remezov's "Drawing book of Siberia" on the site of Omsk. There is a lot of archaeological evidence pointing to the Slavic roots of the peoples inhabiting Siberia long before Ermak. It can be assumed that by the beginning of the 12th century the Slavic peoples were disunited, as is now the Russian Federation and Kiev. But that's my opinion. And to reject what you do not understand or cannot explain is the utmost stupidity. So think with whom the Europeans fought?
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon April 16 2016 10: 09
      +1
      And the Chinese did not notice these Slavic Tatars because of the squint
      1. KaPToC
        KaPToC April 16 2016 14: 18
        +1
        Aryan sorcerers averted their eyes to the Chinese, so the Chinese are so slanted.
    2. kalibr
      kalibr April 16 2016 12: 21
      +1
      Yes you?! The center in Mudgard in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, where a large meteorite fell and destroyed the mainland Mu, it was from there that people like Mu went ... and further in meaning, and it was they who later settled the land of GOGOV and MAGOGS, and only then Tartaria, from the word Tart-tarar, that is, "far from here." And even now their descendants are alive and live among us!
      1. Riv
        Riv April 17 2016 05: 35
        0
        Yes. These are people with the letter "Mu".
  • Amestigon
    Amestigon April 16 2016 10: 27
    +3
    Quote: Cartalon
    And the Chinese did not notice these Slavic Tatars because of the squint

    It's just that this "most ancient book of mankind" was written in the 90s of the last century. And what is most interesting is right in modern Russian. Nothing less than a miracle !!! laughing
  • Borus017
    Borus017 April 16 2016 10: 28
    0
    Quote: Tlauicol
    already painted in his time
    - thumbnails? Alas, I have to disagree.
    And the miniature is good. And who is painted on it is an interesting question. Completely "Europeanized" enemies.
  • Starshina wmf
    Starshina wmf April 16 2016 10: 57
    +3
    Some stubbornly continue to believe that there was no Mongol empire and Genghis Khan, ignoring all the evidence from Asia, China and Western Europe. As if history was written only in Russia.
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon April 16 2016 11: 38
      +3
      They prove to her that Chigiz is Russian from near Vologda, well, Batu is Dad, Mamaia guess yourself.
    2. kalibr
      kalibr April 16 2016 12: 29
      0
      But don’t you know that the whole story went from Russia, and the first person from Russia, or rather from Hyperborea, withdrew, and that it is the Rus from the superethnos of the Rus that is the most ancient and civilized people in the world? True, there is a pseudoscientific dispute between the great Ukrainians and the superethnos of the Rus who dug out what. Ukrainians are the Black Sea, but on the other hand, the Rus is the Arctic Ocean, and they argue who took out more land because of the difference in depths. But the fact that all world history revolved exclusively around Russia is undoubtedly, otherwise you are Russophobe, because you don’t know that the Japanese samurai are Cossacks from the Amur!
  • Pomeranian
    Pomeranian April 16 2016 12: 28
    +3
    It's strange. Not a single cry: "How? Mongols in Europe ?? And what did they feed the horses on the way ???"

    Great informative article. The author definitely +. The battle of Legnica was won by a more modern army than the knightly army.
    1. KaPToC
      KaPToC April 16 2016 14: 21
      +2
      How did they feed the horses? Oats from the nearest collective farm "Testaments eee Genghis Khan".
    2. co-creator
      co-creator April 16 2016 16: 13
      -2
      Quote: Pomoryanin
      It's strange. Not a single cry: "How? Mongols in Europe ?? And what did they feed the horses on the way ???"

      No need for you to talk about it. It is useless because the disease "Pomorian" cannot be treated. Live in peace with yourself and be happy laughing
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian April 16 2016 20: 19
        +2
        Quotation: blooded man
        I’m not going to tell you about this.

        Do not betray need for virtue. Do not mock your own fingers. You are not a bear.
  • Basil50
    Basil50 April 16 2016 12: 53
    0
    To draw conclusions from the names of a military group is a controversial occupation. Today in Europe they call themselves * democrats, teleraists, etc. *, and recently they were * Nazis and fascists *. They changed their name after they got in the face and it became * embarrassing * to belong to the beaten bastards. Therefore, they were renamed to more * digestible *.
    The same thing happened with the * Mongol invasion *. Beaten as soon as they do not name the winners and what they just do not tell, just to whitewash themselves. Moreover, churchmen took an active part in this. Recently, it was seriously stated that it was the church that ensured the victory of * RUSI over the horde *. Absolutely missing the testimonies of contemporaries of those events that almost everyone who was later called * Mongols * were Christians and went into battle with * holy prayer *, because of which * markers * also happened. This from the side of the RUSICH was of any different faith, including a few Christians, because at that time there were a minority of them. It was only among the candidates for power that there were a majority of * Christians *.
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon April 16 2016 13: 01
      0
      Well yes Sergey Radonezhsky a typical magician from Lake Nero
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 April 16 2016 13: 41
        +1
        Well, of course, it was he who smashed the * Fryzhsky * spearmen on the Kulikov Field, also * the heavenly army * whom he * had called *. By the way, among the equestrians on the part of Mamai there were most Christians.
        The greatness of Radonezhsky is that he * justified * the possibility of building a state without imported experts and ideologists.
        1. Cartalon
          Cartalon April 16 2016 14: 55
          -2
          This is in what works he justified this? And the religious composition of the tips
          Mama counted who? And heavenly army, what kind of bird is this? Well, did Sergius directly bludgeon these jars?
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • fvandaku
    fvandaku April 16 2016 13: 49
    0
    Apparently, the author of the picture not only never saw Asian nomads himself, but also did not communicate with those who saw them. The funny thing is that they have on the banner - an image of a man of clearly European appearance and in a European crown.

    Guys, falsifiers themselves already believe in their lies.
    Like small, crooked-legged, weak, small, uneducated shepherds and nomads attacked (they attacked terribly) and enslaved everyone.
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol April 16 2016 14: 49
      +1
      no, my friend, counterfeiters are those who believe that: Samara, Rome and Egypt are one and the same, the history of Greece began in the 2nd century BC, Caesar and Solomon are one person, any objectionable artifacts are fake (including whole cities ), Biblical plots are the history of Russia, and in general - it is the Slavs who enslaved all of Eurasia and arranged a showdown among themselves, and then forgot the whole story (together with the Europeans), and the damned Romanovs hid everything. Read the full collection of Fomenko (a retired goat mathematician) - there is still not such a thing, schizophrenia is violent
      To believe in all this nonsense, simply because it is fashionable as the Louboutins or the last iPhone - this is .. this is ...
  • Termit1309
    Termit1309 April 16 2016 14: 50
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    where the text dealt with the battle of Kalka, but in the figure the Mongol pulled an arrow from the throat of a killed Russian warrior amid snow and ice!

    Russia is the same. Eternal winter, in the summer of snow a little less. laughing
    And if this is not a knight, then he could not sit on a horse.

    As if the knight's spear included horse archers or crossbowmen. Or do historians blatantly lie?
    This detachment, which in everyday life was called - the Spear in the XIII-beginning of the XIV century. consisted of the following soldiers in France:
    1. knight
    2. squire (a man of noble birth, who served as a knight before his own knighting),
    3. cutillo (auxiliary equestrian warrior in armor, not having knightly dignity),
    4. 4 to 6 archers or crossbowmen,
    5. 2 to 4 foot soldiers.
    In fact, the spear had 3 mounted warriors in armor, several shooters mounted on horses and several foot soldiers.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr April 16 2016 15: 15
      -3
      What you bring it was 150-200 years after 1241 g. And the archers and arbalester did not shoot from the horse! The horse was a noble animal and the commoner could not do this while sitting on it! I had to get off!