Military Review

Our proud “Varyag” does not surrender to the enemy.

124
Our proud “Varyag” does not surrender to the enemy.



9 February 1904 of the year took place an unequal battle of the cruiser "Varyag" and the gunboat "Koreyets" with the Japanese squadron

By the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War, the Varyag armored cruiser and the Koreyan gunboat were stationed in the Korean port of Chemulpo (now the sea suburb of Seoul, the capital of South Korea). "Inpatient" then called the military ships, who stood in foreign harbors to support their diplomatic missions.

In Korea, for a long time, there was still a political struggle between Russia and Japan for influence. The Korean king, fearing the Japanese, was hiding in the house of the Russian ambassador. Under these conditions, the cruiser Varyag and the Korean Koreludka guaranteed the support of our embassy in the event of any provocations. At that time it was a common practice: in the port of Chemulpo, warships — “hospitals” of England, France, the USA and Italy — stood in front of our ships and defended their embassies.

6 February 1904, Japan severed diplomatic relations with Russia. Two days later, the Koreon gunboat, which had left Chemulpo to deliver a report from the embassy to Port Arthur, was attacked by Japanese destroyers. They fired two torpedoes at her, but missed. "Korean" returned to the neutral port with the news of the approach of the enemy squadron. Russian ships began to prepare for battle with superior enemy forces.

The captain of "Varyag" Vsevolod Fyodorovich Rudnev decided to fight his way through to Port Arthur, and in case of failure to blow up the ships. The captain appealed to the team: “Of course, we are going on a breakthrough and enter into battle with the squadron, no matter how strong it may be. There can be no questions about surrender - we will not surrender the cruiser and ourselves and will fight to the last opportunity and to the last drop of blood. Do everyone their duties accurately, calmly, without haste. "

9 February 1904 of the year in 11 hours of the morning Russian ships left the port to meet the enemy. At noon on the Varyag the alarm was sounded and the battle flag was raised.

Our sailors were confronted by superior enemy forces — 6 cruisers and 8 destroyers. Later, military experts and historians calculated that the weight of the volley (the weight of the shells fired at once by all the ship’s weapons) of the Japanese cruisers was almost 4 times the weight of the Varyag and Korean. In addition, some of the Japanese cruisers had better armor and speed, and the old guns of the low-speed "Korean" had a smaller range and rate of fire compared to the guns of the same caliber on Japanese ships.

At 12 hours 20 minutes, the Japanese opened fire on our ships. After 2 minutes, Varyag and Koreets returned fire. In total, our ships had 21 guns in caliber from 75 mm against Japanese 90 similar calibers.


"Varyag" and "Korean" go into battle, 9 February 1904. Photo: wikipedia.org

Excellence in forces immediately affected the course of the battle. The Japanese literally bombarded the Varyag with heavy shells. After 18 minutes after the discovery of fire, the 152-millimeter projectile from the armored cruiser “Asama”, hitting the right wing of the front bridge “Varyag”, destroyed the front-range finder and caused a fire. The loss of a range finder dramatically reduced the ability of the Russian cruiser to conduct aimed fire.

The distance between opponents was less than 5 km. In just 25 minutes of battle, the Russian cruiser received a whole series of hits: one 203-millimeter projectile struck him between the nose bridge and the pipe, 5 – 6 152-millimeter shells hit the nose and center of the ship. The last was hit 203-millimeter projectile in the rear part of the "Varyag".

As it turned out after the battle, fires caused by the hits of enemy shells damaged the sixth part of the ship. From the 570 man of the Varyag team, the 1 officer and the 22 sailor were killed during the battle. After the battle, another 10 man died from his wounds within a few days. 27 people were seriously injured, "less seriously injured" - the commander of the cruiser Rudnev himself, two officers and 55 sailors. Over a hundred more people were slightly injured by small fragments.

Since the Japanese were significantly superior to the Russian forces during the battle, their losses and damages were much less. In the course of the battle with the Varyag, a hit and fire was observed on the Asama cruiser, the flagship of the Japanese squadron. Both during the war and after the Japanese, they stubbornly denied any casualties in the battle of Chemulpo, although after the return of their ships to the base in Sasebo, the dead bodies were demolished from 30.

The damaged “Varyag” and the “Korean” cannon ship retreated to the port of Chemulpo. Here, Captain Rudnev, who was wounded in the head and concussion during the battle, but did not leave his post, decided to destroy the ships so that they would not reach the enemy.

In 16 hours 5 minutes 9 February 1904, the gunboat "Koreyets" was blown up by a team and sank. On the Varyag, after the evacuation of the wounded and the crew, the Kingston was opened: in the 18 hours of the 10 minutes, while still on fire, the cruiser overturned to the port side and went to the bottom.

The surviving officers and sailors from the Varyag and the Korey returned to Russia through neutral countries. The remains of the Russian sailors killed in that battle were transferred to Vladivostok in 1911 and buried in a mass grave at the city’s Sea Cemetery.

The battle of "Varyag" with the superior forces of the Japanese squadron was later differently evaluated by military experts, more than once speculative theories were advanced that the enemy could be dealt more damage. But public opinion, not only in Russia, but also in European countries, immediately praised the feat of the Russian sailors, who bravely moved into a hopeless battle.

Thus, the Austrian poet Rudolf Greyntz, previously distant from Russia, and even more from the Far East, soon after he learned about the heroic battle of the Russian cruiser, under the impression of the courage of the Varyag team, wrote a song that immediately became, as they would say today, hit "and" hit ":

Auf Deck, Kameraden, all 'auf Deck!
Heraus zur letzten Parade!
Der stolze Warjag ergibt sich nicht,
Wir brauchen keine gnade!

Already in April, 1904, Der Warjag, was translated into Russian, and today these words are known to almost everyone in our country:

Up, oh comrades, everything is in places!
The last parade is coming!
Our proud Varyag is not surrendering to the enemy,
No one wants mercy!
Author:
Originator:
http://rusplt.ru/wins/vragu-ne-sdaetsya-nash-gordy-varyag-21179.html
124 comments
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  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. bionik
    bionik 13 February 2016 07: 50
    18
    On April 16, 1904, the crew of the Varyag cruiser arrived by rail to St. Petersburg and marched from Nikolaev Station to the Winter Palace Square. Emperor Nicholas II himself welcomed the sailors-heroes. All of them were invited to a gala dinner at the palace, where on this occasion special dinner items were prepared, which after the celebration were given to sailors. All sailors of the "Varangian" were given a nominal watch as a gift from the Emperor.
  3. bionik
    bionik 13 February 2016 07: 51
    +6
    Sailors of the cruiser "Varangian" after a gala dinner in the Winter Palace.
  4. semirek
    semirek 13 February 2016 07: 52
    12
    Many thanks to the author for reminding us of the Russian heroes, the feat of "Varyag" is remembered and proud of all of Russia! Glory to the Russian sailors!
    1. 24hours
      24hours 13 February 2016 13: 05
      +1
      Quote: semirek
      about Russian heroes, the feat of "Varyag" is remembered and proud of all of Russia!

      A few "little things".
      1. The crew of the Varyag completely surrendered (interned, ie surrendered to a neutral country without the right to further participate in the war). I can imagine what would have happened to the surviving defenders if the Brest Fortress had fought so heroically.
      2. The crew of the Varyag surrendered their ship to the Japanese through a ritual drowning (not flooding, not an explosion).
      What is the "feat of the Varyag"? The fact that he shot at the Japanese, never hit, and then quickly enough returned to the bay and surrendered there?
      Are you sure that this action can be called "feat"?
      1. Gomunkul
        Gomunkul 13 February 2016 15: 44
        +4
        Are you sure that this action can be called "feat"?
        The glory of the Russian people does not bother you Europeans, all you climb to us and teach us how to live, do you have your own people there, are there any problems?
        1. 24hours
          24hours 13 February 2016 15: 49
          -17 qualifying.
          Quote: Gomunkul
          the glory of the Russian people,

          You are not looking for the glory of the Russian people there. She is not from the Department of the CPSU Central Committee for Agitation and Propaganda.
          1. Gomunkul
            Gomunkul 13 February 2016 17: 10
            +3
            You are not looking for the glory of the Russian people there.
            They do not seek fame, they gain it. wink
      2. Andrey VOV
        Andrey VOV 13 February 2016 16: 42
        0
        Sausage silent about what you do not know!
        1. 24hours
          24hours 13 February 2016 16: 51
          -10 qualifying.
          Quote: Andrey VOV
          silent sausage

          Oh. And what kind of member is this, I’m not afraid of the word, is the juvenile correspondent plugging my mouth? Go shut your dad. He will kick your ass with a belt, you will know how to talk with adults.
      3. Alf
        Alf 13 February 2016 18: 12
        +8
        Quote: 24hours
        1. The crew of the Varyag surrendered without exception

        There was a rescript of the emperor, allowing the surrender. The Japanese emperor ordered the crews of the Varangian and Korean NOT to consider prisoners of war. After treatment, the Russian sailors returned to their homeland on April 23, i.e., during the war.
        Quote: 24hours
        The crew of the Varyag surrendered their ship to the Japanese through a ritual drowning (not flooding, not an explosion).

        The Varangian was flooded under pressure from the commanders of hospitals, Commodore Bailey in the first place. The Korean was blown up.
        Quote: 24hours
        What is the "feat of the Varyag"?

        The fact that in a pre-losing situation Varyag went to battle. The fact is that
        that the provisions of the Maritime Charter didn’t leave any other option for Rudnev to accept the battle — surrender of the ship to the Japanese or its flooding without a fight would be qualified as an official crime.

        Quote: 24hours
        never hit

        Is that what the Japanese said? So why did Asama leave for repairs after the battle? By the way, the Japanese have never hit the Korean either.
        By the way, in the battle of La Plata, the German raider Graf Spee also left for the port after the battle, and then interned. And, characteristically, it did not explode, but was flooded.
        1. 24hours
          24hours 13 February 2016 18: 38
          -1
          Quote: Alf
          The Japanese emperor ordered the crews of the Varangian and Korean NOT to consider prisoners of war.

          They were not prisoners of war. They were interned. Those. surrendered to the neutral side of the conflict.
          Quote: Alf
          After treatment, the Russian sailors returned to their homeland on April 23, i.e., during the war.

          It is easy. In order not to feed the internees, they took a receipt with the obligation not to fight and sent them home. Lists sent home were provided to the enemy. If such an internee went to the front and was captured, then he was executed. Like a gangster.
          Quote: Alf
          The Varangian was flooded under pressure from hospital commanders, Commodore Bailey in the first place

          This is a fairy tale about a white bull. Who was Bailey? Some strange foreigner, no more.
          Quote: Alf
          The fact that in a pre-losing situation Varyag went to battle.

          This is not a feat, this is stupidity. It made sense to go out in order to ram Asama. Or not to go out. And to go out, twirl around for the near-term, get a dozen splashes and leave, that's not an option. Don't get it. But for Rudnev an iron "argument". He didn't know he was going to be a hero.
          Quote: Alf
          surrender of the ship to the Japanese or its flooding without a fight would qualify as an official crime

          Sorry, this is nonsense.
          Quote: Alf
          So why did Asama leave for repairs after the battle?

          Do not fantasize.
          Quote: Alf
          By the way, the Japanese have never hit the Korean either.

          So almost did not shoot.
          Quote: Alf
          By the way, in the battle of La Plata, the German raider Graf Spee also left for the port after the battle, and then interned. And, characteristically, it did not explode, but was flooded.

          So the flag in his hands.
          By the way, Langsdorf shot himself.
      4. Litsvin
        Litsvin 14 February 2016 00: 30
        10
        Dear 24hours !!! THE GREAT FEAT OF THE VARYAG CRUISER AND THE KOREETS CANONER CONSISTS THAT OUR SEAFARERS CONSCIOUSLY AND VOLUNTARYLY GO TO DEATH. WHY? BECAUSE THE FORCES WERE JUST NOT EQUAL IN THE BEGINNING. IN PRINCIPLE WITH OUR TWO SHIPS, UNDER SUCCESSFUL CIRCUMSTANCES, ONE CRUISER "ASAMA" COULD DEFINITELY. One successful hit of a 203mm projectile into the artillery cellar and the Varyag would turn into a heap of metal, and the crew into the dead. THAT IS WHAT THE FEAT IS !!! And these people, however, went to battle. They knew very well that there would be NO VICTORY. BUT, GOING OUT TO THE SEA, OUR SEAFARDS HAVE DONE EVERYTHING THAT COULD, AND THEY HAD A MORAL VICTORY, MEMORIZED IN MEMORY OF OUR PEOPLE. THIS IS WHAT THE EXPLORATION INCLUDES !!!.
        And therefore, I strongly advise people like you not to touch the sacred and not to raise doubt. You have not even seen the sea (with a high degree of probability), but you are trying to judge about unknown things.
        By the way, this victory was won by not quite "Russian" sailors in the sense of "Russian". The fact is that 80% of the crew of the Varyag cruiser was manned by residents of Volhynia, as well as neighboring territories (parts of modern Brest and Polesye). There are relevant documents about this stored in the naval archives, for example, in St. Petersburg. I think anyone who has studied the history of the feat of these ships more widely and deeply - beyond the "framework" of articles in Soviet magazines, knows about this fact.
        Well, also about these FAMOUS SHIPS. Since we are talking about the GREAT "Varyag" and "Koreytsa", it is necessary to touch upon the "gopothetical" side of the question - could the duel end in a different way? It turns out, hypothetically, YES. Back in 1908, a group of officers of the Baltic Fleet "at advanced training courses at the Admiralty" (in a modern way), including those who took part in the battle on the "Varyag", "on paper" played a possible scenario of rescuing the cruiser "Varyag" as a combat unit fleet. The lost scenarios based on data on the hydrographic site of the battle, the formation, maneuvering of ships, performance characteristics, made it possible to conclude that, hypothetically, with a high degree of probability, the Varyag could escape from the trap without the gunboat Koreets. She would only take part in the first "act" of the operation, then she would return back to the port, where she would simply be inerted. But history does not know the subjunctive mood "if only ...".
        The theme of "Varyag" is very close to our family, since my wife's great-grandfather, a resident of Volyn, took part in that famous battle, was a sailor on the "Varyag". Based on the bits of information that I managed to establish in the archives back in Soviet times, most likely I was a stoker (I found his last name and initials in one document, only written in the Russian manner - instead of “a” there is an “o” in it. , in Ukraine, the St. George's Cross is kept (the ribbon, unfortunately, has crumbled from time to time, the cross and the block itself remained), a plate with a monogram and a very faded fragment of a photograph of the team (2/3 of the size, almost cannot be made out), which, apparently, was made even before the ship was sent to the Far East.
        PEOPLE WERE IN THE LAST BATTLE, AND BELOW HEROES IN HISTORY FOREVER !!! ONLY 56 MINUTES - AND FIVE WILL LIVE FOR AGES !!! GLORY TO OUR HEROES WITH "VARYAGA" AND "KORETSA" !!! THESE TWO SHIPS ARE SACRED FOR EVERY PATRIOT and SEAFARER !!! THREE-TIME LOUD "Hurray !!!", "Hurray !!!", "UR ... AAA !!!"
      5. lelikas
        lelikas 14 February 2016 00: 33
        +2
        Quote: 24hours
        Are you sure that this action can be called "feat"?

        A long time ago I did not put cons, and even with pleasure, thanks.
        (I understand that I fed the troll, but it's nice anyway)
      6. Vivisector
        Vivisector 12 December 2016 07: 41
        0
        The mistake came out, I wanted to put a minus.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Leksander
      Leksander 14 February 2016 00: 18
      -2
      Quote: semirek
      feat of "Varyag"

      With what "exploit" the war began and it ended! First, the Varyag was handed over, then Port Arthur was lost with flooded ships, then Rozhestvensky fucked up Tsushima and, as a result, Japan, which can be covered with a palm, put Russia with cancer.
    4. lelikas
      lelikas 14 February 2016 00: 32
      0
      Quote: semirek
      Many thanks to the author for reminding us of the Russian heroes, the feat of "Varyag" is remembered and proud of all of Russia! Glory to the Russian sailors!

      Well, yes, better late than never.
  5. bionik
    bionik 13 February 2016 07: 55
    11
    Vsevolod Fedorovich Rudnev.
  6. sa-ag
    sa-ag 13 February 2016 08: 01
    +8
    Well, somehow the incomplete history of the "Varyag", the Japanese then raised it and used it as part of their fleet, in the end it lies at the bottom not far from the coast of Ireland
    1. bionik
      bionik 13 February 2016 08: 29
      12
      In 1905, the "Varangian" was raised by the Japanese, repaired under the name "Soy." In 1916, the Soya cruiser (Varangian) was bought by Russia, after which it was included in the fleet of the Arctic Ocean under the previous name Varangian. In February 1917 it was repaired by Great Britain, where it was confiscated by the British because the Soviet government refused pay the debts of the Russian Empire. It was then resold to German firms for scrap. When towing the ship fell into a storm and sank off the coast in the Irish Sea. Part of the metal structures was then removed by local residents. It was subsequently blown up.
      1. Gomunkul
        Gomunkul 13 February 2016 15: 53
        +6
        bionik
        I will add your comment about the monument to the cruiser "Varyag":
        On the shores of the Irish Sea, in the Scottish village of Lendalfoot, South Ayrshire, near the place of death of the legendary Russian cruiser Varyag, a memorial complex dedicated to him was solemnly opened on Saturday (08.09.2007), ITAR-TASS reports.
        The remains of the ship lie on the seabed a few hundred meters from the monument, which is a three-meter bronze Orthodox cross, which depicts a cruiser, St. Andrew's flag and other maritime attributes. In special capsules, which are laid in the pedestal of the memorial, the earth has been collected from different parts of Russia, one way or another connected with the fate of the "Varyag". It was collected by historians of the Russian fleet and naval officers in the Tula region, the homeland of the commander of the Varyag, Rear Admiral Vsevolod Rudnev, as well as in Kronstadt and Vladivostok.
        According to RIA Novosti, the idea of ​​the monument belongs to three cadets of the St. Petersburg Nakhimov School, who won the competition for the projects of the monument. The author of the monument is Moscow sculptor Danila Surovtsev. The competition and fundraising for the installation of the memorial was held by the Navy Support Charity Fund. About 650 thousand dollars were raised to create the monument.
        The opening ceremony was attended by representatives of the British and Russian authorities, as well as sailors who arrived in Lendalfoot on the Northern Fleet's large anti-submarine ship Severomorsk.
        The memorial, erected on the site of the Varyag's death, became the first monument of Russian military glory in Great Britain. A year ago, a memorial plaque was erected in Lendalfoot, on which the main milestones in the history of the heroic ship were listed in Russian and English.
  7. Koshak
    Koshak 13 February 2016 08: 05
    12
    Varangian
    Music: A.S. Turishchev Lyrics: Rudolf Greinz, translation - E.Studenskaya


    Up, you comrades, everything is in place!

    The last parade is coming!
    Our proud "Varangian" does not surrender to the enemy,
    No one wants mercy!

    All pennants curl and chains rattle
    Anchors rise to the top.
    Preparing for battle guns in a row,
    The sun is ominously sparkling!

    From our pier we will go into battle,
    Towards death threatening us
    For the motherland in the open sea we die
    Where are waiting for the yellow-headed devils!


    Whistles and rattles and rumbles around.
    Thunder cannons, hissing shell,
    And our fearless and proud “Varangian” became
    Like a hell!

    In death agony tremble body,
    The thunder of guns, and the noise, and the walls,
    And the ship is engulfed in a sea of ​​fire, -
    It is time to say goodbye.

    Goodbye, comrades! With God, cheers!
    The boiling sea beneath us!
    Brothers, we didn’t think yesterday,
    What will die today under the waves!

    Neither stone nor stranded where they lay down
    To the glory we are the Russian flag,
    Only the waves of the sea will glorify in the distance
    The heroic death of "Varyag"!




    1904
    1. 24hours
      24hours 13 February 2016 11: 06
      -23 qualifying.
      Quote: Koshak
      Our proud "Varangian" does not surrender to the enemy,

      I hesitate to ask, what then, under the name "Soya" and the Japanese flag, plowed the vastness of the oceans? Isn't that "unsuccessful Varyag"? It was later bought back from the Japanese. For a gold coin.
      Quote: Koshak
      The heroic death of "Varyag"!

      "They brought him home, he turned out to be alive" - ​​something from a children's cartoon. I just remembered. Any matches are accidental.
      1. amba balamut 77
        amba balamut 77 13 February 2016 23: 03
        +1
        Don’t get rid of the gay European mongrel, you are in your Europe against a handful of migrants that you are afraid to squeeze you in the corners, and then the hero is damn. You do not touch the Varangian, you geyropeytsam this feat does not understand.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 13 February 2016 12: 19
      0
      BRAVO !!! I heard texts with more tolerant words instead of `` yellow-faced devils ''.
      1. moskowit
        moskowit 13 February 2016 15: 47
        0
        Words, dear connoisseur of the Russian language, cannot be tolerant in any way ... They have different "terms" for words ...
    4. Litsvin
      Litsvin 14 February 2016 11: 34
      0
      The fact is that over time, a number of phrases of the song were distorted, by whom and why it is difficult to say. Most likely already with the "councils", which also "canceled" the song performance of the third part of the song for "political" motives, so as not to offend the feelings of the "yellow-faced devils", forgetting that they treacherously attacked Russia without declaring war.
      In the original book-album, published in St. Petersburg in 1908 (there are words, notes, photographs, text - everything about "Varyag" and "Koreets"), which I personally happened to hold in my hands, ORIGINAL WORDS are somewhat different from more late, Soviet "forgeries".
      In particular, here is the difference in the words of the 2nd part.
      The Soviet "remake" you quoted here:

      All pennants curl and chains rattle
      Anchors rise to the top.
      Preparing for battle guns in a row,
      The sun is ominously sparkling!

      In the "royal", pre-revolutionary original:

      All pennants hover and chains rattle,
      Anchors rise to the top.
      READY to battle guns in a row
      The sun is ominous verification!

      And indeed: in the original, the speech is about tools that are ready and sparkling in the sun, and in a distorted version, either about people or about tools. There are other "Soviet" variations with distorted words.

      Here is the difference in the words of the 7th part.

      The Soviet "remake" you quoted here:

      Neither stone nor stranded where they lay down
      To the glory we are the Russian flag,
      Only the waves of the sea will glorify in the distance
      The heroic death of "Varyag"!

      In the "tsarist" original of 1908:

      Neither stone nor CROSSwhere lay down
      To the glory we are the Russian flag,
      Only sea waves GLORIZED FOR AGES
      The heroic death of "Varyag"!

      By the way, can anyone on the Internet have met THIS SONG in full, original performance with the 3rd part, where it is sung about yellow-faced devils. I can't find such a music file anywhere. Everywhere on music sites, only the "political, castrated" version of the song "Varyag" is sung. Well, how is it, why our "figures from music" do not use our own Russian proverb "You cannot throw out words from a song." It turns out that they throw it out, which is extremely wrong. I was once in Kaliningrad on the day of the Navy, where a choir of sailors performed live exactly the full version of the song, together with "yellow-faced devils." If anyone has seen a music file with FULL WORDS OF THE SONG and in good quality, please indicate the address of such an Internet site. I would greatly appreciate it.
  8. Koshak
    Koshak 13 February 2016 08: 06
    +3
    Varangian (Cold waves splashing)
    Music: F. Bogoroditsky Lyrics: Y. Repninsky


    Cold waves are splashing
    Beating on the seashore ...
    Seagulls rush over the sea
    Their screams are full of longing ...

    White seagulls rushing about
    Something alarmed them, -
    Chew! .. Thunders rumbled
    Explosions distant, deaf.

    There, in the midst of a noisy sea,
    Andreevsky flag is twisting, -
    Beats with unequal power
    Proud handsome "Varangian".

    Shot down high mast
    The armor is pierced on it.
    Team fights steadily
    With the sea, with the enemy and fire.

    The Yellow Sea foams
    The waves roar angrily;
    From the enemy sea giants
    Shots more often thunder.

    Less often from the "Varyag" rushing
    To the menacing answer ...
    “Seagulls! carry to the homeland
    Hello Russian heroes ...

    Give the world everything,
    Seagulls, sad news:
    In the battle to the enemy we did not give up -
    Fell for the Russian honor! ..

    We didn’t let go before the enemy
    Glorious Andreev flag,
    No! we blew up the Korean
    We have sunk the "Varangian"!

    Saw white seagulls -
    The warrior hid in the waves,
    The guns fell silent
    The vast expanse has subsided ...

    Cold waves are splashing
    Beating against the shore of the sea
    Seagulls rush west
    Their screams are full of longing ...



    1904
  9. blizart
    blizart 13 February 2016 08: 08
    +4
    War loves victory and does not like duration. What else is there to add to Sun Tzu? Only that of duration without victories, war loves even less. The greatest intensity of patriotism, gradually flowed from indifference to deaf discontent, and it all ended with the sowed seeds of the storm.
  10. aszzz888
    aszzz888 13 February 2016 08: 21
    +4
    The heroic resilience of the Russian sailors struck the Japanese themselves. They have repeatedly set an example for our sailors.
    Eternal Memory to the Heroes of "Varyag" and "Koreyets"!
    1. owl
      owl 13 February 2016 12: 49
      -3
      Of course eternal memory, but ..
    2. 24hours
      24hours 13 February 2016 14: 32
      -14 qualifying.
      Quote: aszzz888
      The heroic resilience of the Russian sailors struck the Japanese themselves.

      According to Japanese data, just 18 minutes after the first shot, the Varyag began a U-turn to return to the bay. In total, 9 shells of 152-mm caliber and more hit the Varyag. At the same time, 6-7 shells hit already during the turn. After arriving in the bay, the crew of the Varyag handed over the cruiser to the Japanese, and he himself also surrendered (interned). Where is the "heroic fortitude"?
      Quote: aszzz888
      They have repeatedly set an example for our sailors.

      Yeah. Saying, "you will do the same, upon your return you will all be hanged."
      1. Schilda
        Schilda 14 February 2016 00: 17
        0
        LOOK THE LOCATION OF THE PLACE AND UNDERSTAND THAT THE PLACE IS NARROW AND THE WAYS SURROUNDED THE MINOFORTERS ... AND 9 Shells IN AN ARMORED SHIP- THIS IS MUCH. Surrendered means it lowered the flag! Who lowered the flag? You will look at your conclusions and you are simply a genius of war and diplomacy!
    3. Leksander
      Leksander 13 February 2016 23: 49
      -3
      Quote: aszzz888
      They have repeatedly set an example for our sailors.

      Yes, the Japs were happy! Received such a gift!
  11. Pig
    Pig 13 February 2016 08: 23
    +2
    The clearest illustration is not the topic: "Russians know how to die but only stupidly" ...
    it is clear that in that shameful war, at least some kind of "peremoga" was needed and the crew of the "Varyag", for not having others, suited this role perfectly
    this, of course, does not in any way detract from the greatness of the feat of ordinary sailors and officers, but Mr. Rudnev had to be tried by the tribunal for stupidly lost ships and dead people
    1. Predator
      Predator 13 February 2016 09: 32
      20
      Why did you decide that ?! The Japanese would have sunk the Varyag "and" Koreyets "in any case. Break through, at least stay in the port. Korea's neutrality was no longer - an assault was landed in Chemulpo. Do you think it was necessary to surrender the ships without a fight ?! according to the results: "Asama" -4 months of repair, the flagship of "Kasagi" -6 months and 2 destroyers in the podzanyr. Losses of personnel are 1.5 times higher. There are only three such examples of courage (I may be wrong) (I mean such unequal forces) - this is "Varyag", a Spanish galleon (I do not remember the name) who died in a battle with an English squadron, but the icebreaker Sibiryak did not lower the flag in a battle with Admiral Scheer. Maybe this is stupidity for you, but for them the signal "I die, but I don’t give up "a manifestation of duty, honor and fortitude!
      1. ICT
        ICT 13 February 2016 09: 56
        0
        We have VO regularly published articles about the Varangian, and who will tell the thread that I could read about this fight as a child, if in my memory there is a narration on behalf of the Korean commander
        1. lshka
          lshka 14 February 2016 03: 35
          0
          In my opinion, in the magazine "Modeler-constructor" there was an article about "Korean" and this fight
      2. dudinets
        dudinets 13 February 2016 10: 29
        12
        the dry-cargo ship "Sibiryakov", armed with two small-caliber guns in 1942, took a battle with the battleship "Admiral Sheer".
        destroying the heroic cargo ship, the battleship approached the village of Dikson and tried to land a Marine Corps assault. several dozen Soviet polar explorers armed with rifles, four anti-aircraft guns and the Dezhnev icebreaker (2 76mm and 2 45mm guns) managed to repel the attack of the battleship.
        brig "Mercury" (18 guns) did not lower the flag and took a battle with two Turkish ships (about 200 guns for two). Skillfully maneuvering and shooting accurately, the crew of the "Mercury" knocked out the enemy ships and managed to get away from the pursuit.
      3. Amurets
        Amurets 13 February 2016 13: 33
        +3
        Quote: Predator
        icebreaker "Sibiryak" in battle with "Admiral Scheer". Maybe this is stupidity for you, but for them the signal "I die, but I do not surrender" is a manifestation of duty, honor and fortitude!

        Allow me to correct you, not the Sibiryak icebreaker, but the Alexander Sibiryakov icebreaker. Otherwise, everything is correct.
        Quote: sibiryouk
        Rudnev had a hospital mission in Chemulpo and no one set him any tasks to save the cruiser

        And someone asked himself the question, why did the latest high-speed cruiser get on a hospital mission in Chemulpo? Why did the Japanese happily get rid of Soya, but didn’t they have other Russian ships? Yes, because the CMU of the Varyag was very unsuccessful and it was impossible to break through the Varyag alone at the same speed as the Korean did. Now look at the armament. The 6-inch Kane guns had a manufacturing defect that first appeared on the Varyag. rollers and vertical guidance stars were handed over during the shooting, resulting in 6-inch guns failing. Neither Rudnev, nor his commandants, knew about this defect. It manifested itself in a battle during intensive shooting. Having about the same speed, the Korean carried everything two 8-inch cannons and one six-inch cannon. The disadvantage of these guns was that they fired smoke powder and after the Korean shots the raid where the battle took place was smoke-filled. The rest is described many times in the literature, but only R.M. .Melnikov, and Nikloss’s boilers crippled not only a lot of Russian, but also Japanese sailors, and not only on the Varangian, but also on Retvisan.
        1. 24hours
          24hours 13 February 2016 13: 53
          -11 qualifying.
          Quote: Amurets
          why did the newest high-speed cruiser get on a hospital mission in Chemulpo? Why did the Japanese happily get rid of Soya, but didn’t they get from other Russian ships? Yes, because CMU Varyag was very unsuccessful and break through alone Varyag with his speed

          Do not fantasize. The Japanese happily sold obsolete scrap metal to Russia. There, not only the Varangian, they bought Poltava as well.
          Normal cars were on the Varangian. But the age of the cruiser-fighter of trade is short-lived. By the time of sale, it was already a stationary cruiser. And in Japan, such "good" and without Soya was in bulk. Therefore, they sold it. It is not clear only why they bought the old stuff. Russian stationaries were not needed in principle, not a sea power.
          Quote: Amurets
          . The disadvantage of these guns was that they fired smoke powder and after the Korean shots the raid where the battle took place was smoke-filled

          This is bullshit. On the go, there was nothing for anyone. And the fact that the guns were low-power mattered. The Korean was generally rare and weak old. In principle, it was a floating battery for "work" along the shore. Not by fortifications, but by squares.
          Quote: Amurets
          But Nikloss’s boilers crippled not only a lot of Russian, but also Japanese sailors, and not only on the Varyag, but also on Retvisan.

          Do not read Bolshevik newspapers before breakfast. And if there are no others, then do not read any.
          1. Schilda
            Schilda 14 February 2016 00: 04
            0
            Low-powered guns !? As far as I understand, the gun is developed for a certain charge weight types of gunpowder ... etc.
          2. Schilda
            Schilda 14 February 2016 00: 06
            0
            It seems that you yourself were present at the sale of ships! Such a conviction!
        2. The comment was deleted.
      4. 24hours
        24hours 13 February 2016 14: 39
        -8
        Quote: Predator
        Why did you decide that ?! The Japanese would have sunk the Varyag "and" Koreyets "in any case. At least break through, at least stay in the port.

        Nobody broke through anywhere. Indeed, it didn't make sense. It's just that Rudnev was not an easy person. And he made a series of gestures, which later had to save him from the tribunal. He did not even pretend to be "heroic", it already happened, not by his will.
        Quote: Predator
        according to the results: "Asama" - 4 months of repair, the flagship of "Kasagi" - 6 months and 2 destroyers in podzanyr.

        What, collided with floating logs? It is known that the Japanese were not hit. By the way, Rudnev and Takachiho were declared destroyed (the cruiser was lost in WW1). And the "destroyed destroyers" were scrapped in 19-23.
        1. fzr1000
          fzr1000 13 February 2016 15: 34
          +5
          Yes, calm down already, "truth-bearer".
        2. Schilda
          Schilda 14 February 2016 00: 09
          +1
          How was it not!? Read less Japanese! Under Port Arthur, if you believe the Japanese, it also cost how to say, a one-goal game!
    2. Dart2027
      Dart2027 13 February 2016 09: 39
      +2
      Quote: Pig
      but Mr. Rudnev had to be tried by the tribunal for the stupidly lost ships and dead people

      What was he supposed to do?
      1. Pig
        Pig 13 February 2016 10: 16
        -6
        yes, how many conversations have already been here on the topic "what if" ... do not want to start the organ again
        1. Alex
          Alex 13 February 2016 11: 00
          +2
          Quote: Pig
          not hunting again to play a barrel organ

          Not hunting - do not start throwing at the fan.
        2. Andy
          Andy 13 February 2016 11: 06
          0
          Well, keep quiet. You were waiting for the censor ...
      2. 24hours
        24hours 13 February 2016 14: 02
        +1
        Quote: Dart2027
        What was he supposed to do?

        1. Transplant a Korean crew with light weapons aboard the Varyag, and flood him (not blow up) at the entrance to Chemulpo Bay.
        2. Destroy the Varangian Japanese transports, landing in Chemulpo landing.
        3. To land the crews of the Varangian and the Korean along with weapons and landing cannons in Chemulpo Bay with the support of the Varangian artillery.
        4. Blow up the Varangian in the bay after landing.
        5. Fighting with battle to your troops.
        For the most part, this meant either death or captivity. Surrender to the neutral side without the right to participate in the war (intern), having hit the ship in advance, is of course easier.
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 13 February 2016 14: 48
          +3
          Quote: 24hours
          Transplant a Korean crew with light weapons aboard the Varangian, and flood him (not blow up) at the entrance to Chemulpo Bay.
          The first is possible, but the second would change? Would he single-handedly block the entire fairway? Would the Japanese just look at it and do nothing?
          Quote: 24hours
          Destroy Varangian Japanese transports landing in Chemulpo landing
          In fact, the landing was landed from the transports that followed the warships that protected them from the Varangian. Not to mention that Rudnev simply did not expect anything like this and the ship had to be prepared for battle.
          Quote: 24hours
          To land the crews of the Varangian and the Korean along with weapons and landing cannons in Chemulpo Bay with the support of the Varangian artillery.
          I’m not sure that there were any landing guns there. And I wonder what he would achieve with this? Turned the crews into a target for training firing of the Japanese fleet?
          Quote: 24hours
          4. Blow up the Varangian in the bay after landing.
          It has already been.
          Quote: 24hours
          Fighting with battle to your troops.
          Do you mean a breakthrough? So they tried. Only one Asama in its performance characteristics was a cut above the Varangian (an armored cruiser against an armored deck), not to mention other squadron ships.
          Quote: 24hours
          For the most part, this meant either death or captivity.
          And what would change from that?
          1. 24hours
            24hours 13 February 2016 15: 07
            -6
            Quote: Dart2027
            Would he single-handedly block the entire fairway? Would the Japanese just look at it and do nothing?

            Blocked. Do not forget, all this happened at low tide. In addition, do not forget about 22 mines for the installation of Varyag minefields. In general, a rank 1 cruiser is a pretty serious destruction machine. Cheating with her, a big mind is not necessary, but he could still fight.
            We watched and waited. This is what they did. We watched and waited for an answer. Nothing prevented the Varyag and Koreets from entering the strait. And nothing would prevent the Koreets from being flooded across the strait and mining it. There was no need to cover everything. But there was no need to detain the "krupnyak" for the time of reprisals against the transports. This is not long, there was a 6x381 mm TA on the Varyag.
            Quote: Dart2027
            went for warships which protected them from the Varangian

            There was nothing in the bay that could protect the transports from the Varangian. This is not connected with the Varangian, it is connected with other inpatients. Therefore, warships did not enter the bay, but toiled by various ultimatums.
            Quote: Dart2027
            that Rudnev simply did not expect anything like that and the ship had to be prepared for battle

            How many minutes does a warship have to prepare for battle?
            Quote: Dart2027
            I’m not sure that there were any landing guns there.

            Varangian, 2 63,5 mm Baranovsogo landing guns, Korean 1 such gun.
            Quote: Dart2027
            Turned the crews into a target for training firing of the Japanese fleet?

            While they would have passed the Korean and mine crews with guns would have already left the port.
            Quote: Dart2027
            It has already been.

            Did not have. There was no explosion of the Varangian.
            Quote: Dart2027
            Do you mean a breakthrough? So they tried.

            By land. Legs. By the way, they did not try by sea either. They do not go to the breakthrough as they walked.
            Quote: Dart2027
            Only one Asama in its performance characteristics was a cut above the Varangian (an armored cruiser against an armored deck), not to mention other squadron ships.

            Of course, by sea they had no chance at all. Unless to catch up and ram-torpedo Asama. But this is the fate of other commanders.
            Quote: Dart2027
            And what would change from that?

            Then we would have reason to speak of "the heroism of the Varyag crew." And now there are no such grounds.
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 13 February 2016 15: 59
              +2
              Quote: 24hours
              Blocked. Do not forget, all this happened at low tide. In addition, do not forget about 22 mines for the installation of Varyag minefields.
              And what does the ebb have to do with it? The forwarder is somewhat larger than the ship, and the mining of a neutral port with the hospitals there is a serious diplomatic scandal, I doubt that Rudnev had the authority to do so. In addition, in this case, hospitals could well intervene. Not on the side of the Varangian.
              Quote: 24hours
              We watched and waited. They did this. We looked and waited for an answer.
              That is, if the Varangian tried to do something (open fire or start mining), then he would be immediately attacked. And given the night time, most likely they would simply torpedo with the attack of destroyers.
              Quote: 24hours
              How many minutes does a warship have to prepare for battle?
              Yes, not minutes, but longer. Supply ammunition to the guns, tear up waterproof partitions, prepare hoses to extinguish fires, part pairs in boilers, remove all fuel (wood).
              Quote: 24hours
              While they would have passed the Korean and mine crews with guns would have already left the port.
              Once again - who would let him? And to drown KL for Asama and K would be a trifle.
              Quote: 24hours
              By land. Legs.
              And how far would they go? Those three guns who would drag and for how long? Have sailors been taught to maintain a database on land?
              Quote: 24hours
              Is that to catch up and ram-torpedo Asama
              And the Japanese would just stand still and wait for the Varangian to do this.
              Quote: 24hours
              There was nothing in the bay that could protect the transports from the Varangian.
              That is, Japanese ships did not enter there?
              Quote: 24hours
              Then we would have reason to speak of "the heroism of the Varyag crew." And now there are no such grounds.
              That is the fault of Rudnev that he did not drown?
              1. 24hours
                24hours 13 February 2016 16: 30
                -5
                Quote: Dart2027
                and mining a neutral port with the hospitals there is a serious diplomatic scandal, I doubt

                This is lovely. Where did the "neutral port" come from "if Japanese troops are landing there?
                As for the inpatients, they just stood there in order to prevent this. This was the purpose of their being there.
                Quote: Dart2027
                that Rudnev had the authority to do so.

                Of course they were. He was a inpatient. He had the necessary m / n powers. There are no hospitals without this.
                Quote: Dart2027
                In addition, in this case, hospitals could well intervene. Not on the side of the Varangian.

                But this, they’ll lie. This is desertion. The gallows for the captain. And if there was an order from above, then this was an incident. An attack on a m / n peacekeeper (inpatient) is a serious crime by any standards.
                Quote: Dart2027
                And given the night time, most likely they would simply torpedo with the destroyer attack

                17:50, this is not night. Moreover, it is only in cinema that destroyers deftly torpedo the enemy. They still had to catch up with him. And go to the position. And under the hail of his guns do not fall. Even the Korean was a hard nut for them.
                Quote: Dart2027
                Yes, not minutes, but longer

                All this is done during the breeding of vapors.
                Quote: Dart2027
                Once again - who would let him?

                He would allow himself. He had the whole night ahead, at night the Japanese would not have tucked into the mine to clear the channel.
                Don't like 8.02? Damn with them, with transports. 09.02 the ultimatum was until 16:00. What prevented by that time mining the channel and at night, having landed and detonated the Varangian, to leave by land? Japanese? Yes, they interfere. But fighting is generally dangerous. And the military seems to exist specifically for this purpose. And not in order to all surrender together.
                Quote: Dart2027
                And how far would they go?

                And this is another question. Could and far. We don’t know this now.
                Quote: Dart2027
                And the Japanese would just stand still and wait for the Varangian to do this.

                No, of course. But having dispersed it was possible to try to do it. The chance was very real. That would be another matter, it would be real heroism.
                Quote: Dart2027
                That is, Japanese ships did not enter there?

                Read which ones. Trifle pot-bellied.
                Quote: Dart2027
                That is the fault of Rudnev that he did not drown?

                Your questions are strange.
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 13 February 2016 17: 25
                  +3
                  Quote: 24hours
                  Where did it come from! A neutral port "if Japanese troops land there
                  There was no official declaration of war.
                  Quote: 24hours
                  As for the inpatients, they just stood there in order to prevent this.
                  Escort the Varangian to neutral waters, they refused.
                  Quote: 24hours
                  They still had to catch up with him. And go to the position. And under the hail of his guns do not fall.
                  They entered the position by entering the port, and catching up with a ship that stands at the pier and only raises the boilers - these are almost polygonal conditions.
                  Quote: 24hours
                  What prevented by that time mining the channel and at night, having landed and detonated the Varangian, to leave by land?
                  At least the fact that in doing so he would have to deal not only with the Japanese. And by the way, night time was considered the best for attack by destroyers, since it’s difficult to hit them in the dark.
                  Quote: 24hours
                  No, of course. But having dispersed it was possible to try to do it. The chance was very real.
                  And you can recall many such successful rams?
                  Quote: 24hours
                  Read which ones. Trifle pot-bellied.
                  With sharp teeth, and Asama was on the move.
                  Quote: 24hours
                  Your questions are strange.
                  Well, you are unhappy with the fact that he did not continue the battle until the Varyag was drowned.
                  1. 24hours
                    24hours 14 February 2016 19: 58
                    +1
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    There was no official declaration of war.

                    And the violation of the neutrality regime and the attack on the Korean has already happened. It's enough. But for commanders of a different type. Not so "careful".
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Escort the Varangian to neutral waters, they refused.

                    And a polka butterfly dance, too? And what for did they need this?
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    They entered the position by entering the port, and catching up with a ship that stands at the pier and only raises the boilers - these are almost polygonal conditions.

                    Well, which pier? Well, what kind of boilers? The Korean was attacked and returned to Chemulpo before the Japanese ships entered.
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    At least the fact that in doing so he would have to deal not only with the Japanese.

                    Do not fantasize, okay?
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    And by the way, night time was considered the best for attack by destroyers, since it’s difficult to hit them in the dark.

                    He would have been blown up by then.
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    And you can recall many such successful rams?

                    No one. But it was possible to try it on a narrow forway of the "kamikaze" type. And even with good chances of success. Still, there were 6 TA on the Varyag. If they banged at once (when ramming), Asama would no longer be a tenant. But it was not easy to sink the Varyag quickly. It was a big trough, in fact.
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    With sharp teeth, and Asama was on the move

                    I beg of you. Chiyoda, Takachiho and Akashi. Akashi 2x152 mm, other floating museums, Korean rivals. But Asam and the rest could be cut off by mines and a flooded Korean.
                    It was possible to shoot these Japanese old-timers and seize transports with a landing. Then the conditions would have been dictated by Rudnev. And sitting and waiting is not an option in that situation.
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Well, you are unhappy with the fact that he did not continue the battle until the Varyag was drowned.

                    Who told you? I am just against the "exit" that was. And more than once he wrote that it was necessary either to go to the ram, or not to go out at all.
                    1. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 16 February 2016 17: 00
                      0
                      Quote: 24hours
                      It's enough. But for commanders of a different type.
                      It was in neutral waters. They did not attack him at the port.
                      Quote: 24hours
                      And what for did they need this?
                      Just showed which side they are on. And try Rudnev to mine the water area, they would twitch the battle.
                      Quote: 24hours
                      Well, which pier? Well, what kind of boilers? Korean attacked
                      Korean, not Varangian.
                      Quote: 24hours
                      He would have been blown up by then.
                      At the pier? Or do you believe that he would be given the opportunity to retreat during the landing?
                      Quote: 24hours
                      No one. But it was possible to try on a narrow kamikaze-type forway.
                      Asama had some scope for maneuver. In addition, the ship going to the ram is an ideal target, which is easier than just standing still, so rather it would simply be smashed into the trash, and then calmly finished off.
                      Quote: 24hours
                      other floating museums, Korean rivals
                      Not really. Alone, the Varangian would have sunk any of them, but everyone would have drowned him immediately without Asama.
                      Quote: 24hours
                      that it was necessary, either to go out to ram, or not to go out at all.
                      Rather, it was an attempt to probe the enemy. Nobody really knew the level of preparation of the Japanese, and the examples of how a handful of Europeans dispersed Asians many times superior to them numerically were completely complete. Rudnev tried, made sure that the attempted breakthrough guaranteed suicide and retreated.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. 24hours
                        24hours 16 February 2016 23: 04
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        It was in neutral waters. They did not attack him at the port.

                        Strange logic. who cares where the attack was? The main thing is that it was.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Just showed which side they are on. And try Rudnev to mine the water area, they would twitch the battle.

                        They were not on any side. And their twitching was significant only if they tried to intern on their ships, as was the case in reality. Those. give up. And if you fight, then their opinion was not interesting to anyone.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Korean, not Varangian.

                        But the Korean was not a member of the RIF? Was he a ship of another country?
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Or do you believe that he would be given the opportunity to retreat during the landing?

                        Who would he ask? Destroyers? One airborne salvo, and ALL of them are not. For the destroyer of that time, 1-2 75-mm shells were enough. Even the Korean did not need anyone's help in this.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        In addition, the ship going to the ram is an ideal target, which is easier than just standing still, so rather it would simply be smashed into the trash, and then calmly finished off.

                        I agree, there were very few chances for a ram. The powers were already unequal. Therefore, I like the plan for mining the channel and flooding the Korean there. With the subsequent explosion of the Varangian. And without any exits from the bay.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Alone, the Varangian would have sunk any of them, but everyone would have drowned him immediately without Asama.

                        Here were the options. In any case, Takachiho, Akashi and Chioda were collectively weaker than Asama. Those. if Rudnev wanted to fight, he had to fight with them. There was a better chance of success.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Rather, it was an attempt to probe the enemy. Nobody really knew the level of preparation of the Japanese, and the examples of how a handful of Europeans dispersed Asians many times superior to them numerically were completely complete. Rudnev tried, made sure that the attempted breakthrough guaranteed suicide and retreated.

                        Such a version is not at all excluded.
          2. fzr1000
            fzr1000 13 February 2016 15: 36
            +2
            A classic example "everyone imagines himself to be a strategist, seeing the battle from afar." Useless.
        2. semirek
          semirek 13 February 2016 21: 43
          0
          All that I’ve gotten collected - from which site the trollik? Well, yes it’s clear from which one.
      3. The comment was deleted.
    3. bionik
      bionik 13 February 2016 10: 02
      +3
      Quote: Pig
      Mr. Rudnev had to be tried by a tribunal

      And why should he be judged? That he did not disgrace the St. Andrew flag? ...
      The entire Varyag crew is built on the upper deck. Rudnev announced to the crew that Japan had begun military action against Russia: “Of course,” he said, “we are going to break through and engage in battle with the squadron, no matter how strong it is. There can be no question of surrender. Perform your duties accurately. , calmly, without haste, especially the gunners, remembering that each shell must harm the enemy ... "In response, thundered a friendly three-fold" Hurray! "
      1. Pig
        Pig 13 February 2016 10: 21
        -7
        "Why didn't he put to shame the St. Andrew's flag? ..." "
        Rudnev, incidentally, had a specific order - to save the cruiser - which he did NOT fulfill and the ship which he commanded was captured by the enemy and served in the enemy fleet
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 10: 31
          +4
          Quote: Pig
          Rudnev, incidentally, had a specific order - to save the cruiser - which he did not comply with

          Yes you? And when did he receive such an order? And from whom?
          1. Pig
            Pig 13 February 2016 12: 18
            -3
            You guys really do not get it? maybe I put it not very clear sorry ...
            if there are no orders from the higher authorities, the commander should be guided by the Charter ...
            and the Charter does not say "all die heroically"
            precisely because of this, the reaction to the death of the Varyag was not unambiguous. Part of the naval officers did not approve of the actions of the Varyag commander, considering them illiterate both from a tactical point of view and from a technical point of view. But the officials of higher authorities thought differently: why start a war with failures (especially since there was a complete failure near Port Arthur), wouldn't it be better to use the battle at Chemulpo to raise the national feelings of Russians and try to turn the war with Japan into a popular one. Developed a scenario for the meeting of the heroes of Chemulpo. Everyone "forgot" about miscalculations ...
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 12: 26
              -1
              Quote: Pig
              precisely because of this, the reaction to the death of the Varyag was not unambiguous.

              And where did you get this?
            2. Dart2027
              Dart2027 13 February 2016 12: 45
              +1
              Quote: Pig
              and the Charter does not say "all die heroically"

              You were asked a simple question - what exactly should Rudnev have done to "save the cruiser"?
              1. 24hours
                24hours 13 February 2016 14: 48
                -4
                Quote: Dart2027
                What exactly should Rudnev have done to "save the cruiser"?

                It was impossible to "save the cruiser". But it was possible to act according to the Charter, Yu, which was extremely dangerous. Rudnev chose another option, "like almost according to the Charter." It is not for us to judge him. But what we need to do is stop trying to talk about the "heroic Varyag". There was no such thing.
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 13 February 2016 15: 39
                  +2
                  Quote: 24hours
                  It was impossible to "save the cruiser". But it was possible to act according to the Charter

                  Drown with him? This is not courage, but stupidity.
                  Quote: 24hours
                  tryndezh on the theme "heroic Varyag"

                  I don’t presume to say whether it was a feat or just one of many fights, but do not blame Rudnev for cowardice.
                  1. 24hours
                    24hours 13 February 2016 15: 44
                    -1
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Drown with him? This is not courage, but stupidity.

                    Why drown? And why with him? Read, here on the branch I described in detail what could be done in Chemulpo.
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    but do not blame Rudnev for cowardice.

                    And in cunning?
                  2. The comment was deleted.
            3. Alex
              Alex 13 February 2016 12: 51
              +8
              Quote: Pig
              if there are no orders from the higher authorities, the commander should be guided by the Charter ...

              Let's see what is said in the Maritime Charter, written by Peter I. His 90 article directly indicated to the captain of the Russian fleet:
              “In the case of a battle, the captain or the commander of the ship should not only fight courageously against the enemy, but also people, moreover, giving them an image of themselves, encourage them to fight courageously to the last possible opportunity, and should not give the ship to the enemy, either in any case, under the loss of belly and honor. ”

              And further
              “However, if the following needs happen, then after signing the consultation from all the senior and non-commissioned officers, you can give the ship to save people: 1. If it is so broken, it is impossible to defeat the hells or theca with pumps. 2. If gunpowder and ammunition is very nothing. However, if it was expended directly, and not to the wind, it was fired for waste. 3. If in both of the needs described above no shallows near happen, where a lumbago ship could be stranded. "

              Rudnev fulfilled all the provisions of the Naval Regulations, the ship did not surrender (the fact that the Japanese had already after the war raised it and repaired it for the cost of about half of the construction of a new one is a completely different story), the crew kept. The fact that the war did not go according to the scenario that was supposed and the "Varyag" was raised not by us, but by the Japanese - is not his fault.

              Yes, no one gave the order to die (heroically, or otherwise), and there has never been a suicide cult in the Russian armies. But the coward was not celebrated, and if there was a choice between death and dishonor, the first was always (or almost always) chosen.
          2. sibiryouk
            sibiryouk 13 February 2016 12: 31
            +3
            Rudnev had a hospital mission in Chemulpo and no one set him any tasks to save the cruiser! He was also the senior Russian envoy Pavlov and the aforementioned did not make any sensible decisions. A breakthrough was impossible!
            1. 24hours
              24hours 13 February 2016 12: 58
              -9
              Quote: sibiryouk
              Rudnev had a hospital mission in Chemulpo and no one set him any tasks to save the cruiser!

              So he did not fulfill this task. It did not interfere with the Japanese landing at Chemulpo, although it was precisely there that they appointed him there to counter this.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 14: 30
                +1
                Quote: 24hours
                Didn’t interfere with the Japanese landing in Chemulpo

                That not only should not have done, but simply did not have such a right, you are our "expert".
                1. 24hours
                  24hours 13 February 2016 16: 09
                  -2
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

                  That not only should not have done, but simply did not have such a right, you are our "expert".

                  Oh.
                  1. Take an interest in what the hell and for what purposes in Chemulpo the hospitals hung out, one of which was Varyag.
                  2. The Japanese opened fire on the Koreans at about 16:17. And the transports entered Chemulpo at 50:XNUMX. It was possible, of course, to "probe the situation" all night, as it was in reality. And get an ultimatum in the morning. But it was possible to act. To begin with, find out why the Japanese placed destroyers with open covers in front of the Varyag (after the skirmish with the Koreans). And in general, how could this have been allowed in the context of the shootout with the Korean? this is not an excerpt, this is different
        2. Alex
          Alex 13 February 2016 11: 01
          +6
          Quote: Pig
          Rudnev, incidentally, had a specific order - to save the cruiser

          This is in what alternative reality did you see this order ???
        3. Andy
          Andy 13 February 2016 11: 10
          +5
          Well, go ahead, tell from whom the order was received and how Rudnev should have acted ... since the pig would have sunk all the Japs at once, it’s a pity you can’t assign the rank of dolbolob of the 1st rank with snouts on uniform
        4. sibiryouk
          sibiryouk 13 February 2016 12: 31
          0
          Rudnev had a hospital mission in Chemulpo and no one set him any tasks to save the cruiser! He was also the senior Russian envoy Pavlov and the aforementioned did not make any sensible decisions. A breakthrough was impossible!
          1. svp67
            svp67 14 February 2016 15: 36
            0
            Quote: sibiryouk
            and nobody set any tasks to save the cruiser

            Are you out of your mind? As a ship commander, he is simply obliged to do this.
      2. svp67
        svp67 13 February 2016 11: 59
        +1
        Quote: bionik
        And why judge him?

        After the war, Rudnev was awarded the admiral's rank, but the entrance to the officers' meeting was closed to him, the naval officers did not forgive him for the death of the best cruiser of the Empire, then it was believed that he did not take advantage of his chance to break through the blockade using his relatively high speed, for which even before leaving it was necessary to blow up the Korean and go for a breakthrough ...
        Due to the boycott, Rudnev left the service and went to the reserve. This is not a very funny story.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 12: 08
          +1
          Quote: svp67
          This is not a very funny story.

          Invented from beginning to end by a certain Chornovil, he is Abacus.
          1. svp67
            svp67 13 February 2016 12: 23
            +1
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Invented from beginning to end by a certain Chornovil, he is Abacus.

            Well then, explain why he was expelled from the officer meeting and he left the service?
            Invented from beginning to end by a certain Chornovil, he is Abacus.
            I didn’t even hear about such people, but about Dotsenko, Academician of the St. Petersburg Academy of the History of Science and Technology, full member of the Russian Geographical Society, member of the Council of the Association of Officers of the Russian Navy, member of the scientific councils of the Russian State Archive of the Navy, the Central Naval Museum and the Central Military I had to hear the sea library ...
            Finally, the last question: why did Rudnev not put the ship out of operation, and sank it with a simple discovery of the Kingston? The cruiser was essentially "donated" to the Japanese navy. The motivation of Rudnev, that the explosion could damage foreign ships, is untenable. Now it becomes clear why Rudnev resigned. In the Soviet editions, the resignation is explained by Rudnev’s involvement in revolutionary affairs, but this is a fiction. In such cases in the Russian fleet with the production of rear admirals and with the right to wear the uniform did not dismiss. Everything is explained much more simply: the naval officers did not accept Rudnev into their corps for the admitted misses in the battle at Chemulpo. Rudnev himself realized this. At first he was temporarily in the position of commander of the battleship Andrei Pervozvanny under construction, then he filed a resignation report. Now, it seems, everything fell into place.

            V.D. Dotsenko “Myths and legends of Russian maritime history”

            His books, at one time were much discussed in the navy ...
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 12: 38
              0
              Quote: svp67
              Well then, explain why he was expelled from the officer meeting and he left the service?

              He left the service for refusing to take measures against a revolutionary-minded crew, a fact well known. And as for the exclusion from the officer meeting ... look for Dotsenko for the date of exclusion and the documents on the basis of which Dotsenko made this statement. When you find it, we’ll continue.
              1. svp67
                svp67 13 February 2016 13: 07
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                He left the service for refusing to take measures against a revolutionary-minded crew, a fact well known.

                For this they give to the tribunal, and not dismissed with the admiral's rank
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 14: 34
                  +1
                  Quote: svp67
                  For this they give to the tribunal, and not dismissed with the admiral's rank

                  What the fuck? Go to learn history :)))) PR Nicolae the Second, to get to the tribunal for revolutionary sentiments it was necessary to do something extraordinary.
                  The second one. I made you a clear offer
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  look for Dotsenko the date of exclusion and the documents on the basis of which Dotsenko made this statement

                  Will the answer be?
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 14 February 2016 15: 34
                    0
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Will the answer be?

                    I’m not Dotsenko and I don’t have a connection with him, but I’ll ask you to provide specific documents on the fact of Rudnev’s resignation ... As you understand, you possess them, if you are sure that people who are professionally engaged in history are wrong.
                    But if you can’t confirm your words with documents, then simply everyone will remain in their own opinion and that’s all ...
              2. 24hours
                24hours 13 February 2016 14: 14
                -3
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                He left the service for refusing to take measures against a revolutionary-minded crew, a fact well known.

                Not true. One in the internet wrote that he personally saw how he copied the Iskra newspaper at night, and distributed it among sailors. Those. actually a noble Bolshevik. And what only in Agitprop did not come up with. But for some reason they did not guess.
        2. 24hours
          24hours 13 February 2016 17: 04
          -2
          Quote: svp67
          the death of the best cruiser of the Empire

          It's hard to say that. Formally, the Varangian has nothing to compare. There were no other ships of this class in the RIF. They were bought one at a time from each class, for the purpose of study and possibly cloning (immediately recognizing that Askold’s purchase was a mistake). But only Bogatyr and Novik were cloned (or rather caricatured). The rest did not. For different reasons.
      3. 24hours
        24hours 13 February 2016 14: 05
        -3
        Quote: bionik
        we are making a breakthrough and will engage in battle with the squadron, no matter how strong it may be.

        The data on the speed of movement casts doubts about "going to the breakthrough".
        Quote: bionik
        And why judge him? That he did not disgrace the St. Andrew flag?

        1. Passed the ship to the Japanese.
        2. Surrendered himself along with the whole crew.
        Few?
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 14: 35
          +4
          Quote: 24hours
          1. Passed the ship to the Japanese.
          2. Surrendered himself along with the whole crew.

          The first point is a lie.
          The second point is a lie.
          In both cases, it’s impudent and illiterate.
          1. 24hours
            24hours 13 February 2016 16: 34
            -2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The first point is a lie.

            The cruiser Soya (formerly Varangian) was not in the Japanese fleet?
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The second point is a lie

            Like this? And who was interned on foreign ships? Do you understand the meaning of the term "internment"? This is surrender to a third party, actually.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In both cases, it’s impudent and illiterate.

            Do not judge all by yourself.
          2. semirek
            semirek 13 February 2016 21: 54
            +3
            Andrei, this type of daldonite is the same thing - he is a mishandled Cossack, what can you discuss with him?
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 23: 18
              -1
              Quote: semirek
              this type of daldonite is the same thing - he is a mishandled Cossack, what can you discuss with him?

              Yes, in general, you are right, and absolutely. But you look at how many people such "Cossacks" have put their brains ... eghkm ... into powder.
    4. Alex
      Alex 13 February 2016 10: 57
      +3
      Quote: Pig
      Mr. Rudnev had to be tried by a tribunal for stupidly lost ships and dead people

      Well, you, the sofa admiral, would surely have piled on the Faberge to the Japanese, I have no doubt.
    5. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 13 February 2016 12: 24
      +1
      Rudnev’s fate was tragic anyway! Otherwise than none of the commanders in the Russian-Japanese one acted, they were brought up and prepared like that! And the initiative in the army is still punishable.
      1. 24hours
        24hours 13 February 2016 12: 37
        +1
        Quote: sibiryouk
        Otherwise than he was none of the commanders in the Russian-Japanese and did not act-They were brought up and prepared in such a way!

        There were. Admiral Wittgeft, for example. He ordered the laying of mines not even in neutral waters, but in the waters of the international transport corridor. What the Japanese did not expect at all. I took a chance and won. A third of the Japanese battle fleet recovered to the bottom that day. Mines, of course, were immediately removed. Even during the war, mining transport corridors was strictly forbidden. But the mines found their target for sure, so that time it blew through. Although the risk was huge.
        1. Amurets
          Amurets 13 February 2016 14: 12
          +2
          Quote: 24hours
          There were. Admiral Wittgeft, for example.

          There were! Now minuses will sprinkle on me. Commander of the destroyer Angry A.V. Kolchak, Captain 2nd Rank Essen. N.O. Lieutenant Baron A.M. Kosinsky, Commander of the destroyer "State" Hero of two wars. Captain 2nd Rank F , N. Ivanov. there is more, these are officers of the 1st Pacific Squadron.
          1. 24hours
            24hours 13 February 2016 14: 19
            -2
            Quote: Amurets
            A.V. Kolchak, captain of the 2nd rank Essen.N.O. Lieutenant Baron A.M. Kosinsky, commander of the destroyer "State" hero of two wars.Captain of the 2nd rank F, N.Ivanov

            Little has been heard about Kosinsky, so I can’t say anything. But what are the rest famous for?
            Kolchak became known later. And on another occasion.
            Essen drowned Sevastopol in the depths, it is a fact. And then he is known mainly as a self-PR, as they say now. More than that, he showed himself nothing.
            What is Ivanov known for? Fulfilled the order of Vitgeft? So that was his duty, actually.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 14: 36
              +2
              Quote: 24hours
              Essen drowned Sevastopol in the depths, it is a fact. And then he is known mainly as a self-PR

              March to teach history. "Novik" who commanded?
              1. 24hours
                24hours 13 February 2016 16: 47
                0
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                March to teach history. "Novik" who commanded?

                Which one is Tsushima at Korsakov's? No, at first she caught up with this "excellent walker" (25,5 knots) on her "nowhere useless Nikloss boilers" (20 knots), and then zashiblaa. No, there was no doubt about the latter, Tsushima was slightly stronger than Novik. But how did she catch up with him, such a tough walker? No, I understand that there are 101 objective reasons. But the question remains.
                And what, should I remember by heart the name of his captain? What is he famous for?
                1. AK64
                  AK64 13 February 2016 17: 52
                  0
                  No, at first she caught up with this "excellent walker" (25,5 knots) on her "nowhere useless Nikloss boilers" (20 knots), and then zashiblaa.

                  After Qingzao, Novik had all the boilers flowing, and there were problems with the machine. Actually, he barely crawled into the Korsakovsky post, and was loaded with coal there (because of problems with cars, he could not reach Vladik)
                  1. 24hours
                    24hours 13 February 2016 18: 20
                    0
                    Quote: AK64
                    After Qingzao, Novik had all the boilers flowing, and there were problems with the machine. Actually, he barely crawled into the Korsakovsky post, and was loaded with coal there (because of problems with cars, he could not reach Vladik)

                    And who doubted? Who doubted that unreliable German mechanisms were worthless? Or not mechanisms? Maybe the service staff was like that?
                    By the way, he could not go to Vladik due to lack of fuel. It was a small reconnaissance cruiser. Wonder how he got that far? And, most surprisingly, why did he go there at all? With its speed, a straight road at night through Tsushima. Or was this speed not? Has "competent exploitation" devoured it all?
                    1. AK64
                      AK64 13 February 2016 22: 25
                      0
                      And who doubted? Who doubted that unreliable German mechanisms were worthless? Or not mechanisms? Maybe the service staff was like that?

                      maybe a service staff. But the boilers flowed. And when you try to get away from Tsushima, the latter burst

                      By the way, he could not go to Vladik due to lack of fuel.

                      His fuel overrun was one and a half times against the passport. And after a jerk from Qinziao, this overspending still increased. If the flow were normal, and if it booted normally in the arter, then it could have reached.


                      It was a small reconnaissance cruiser. Wonder how he got that far? And, most surprisingly, why did he go there at all? With its speed, a straight road at night through Tsushima. Or was this speed not? Has "competent exploitation" devoured it all?

                      Novik normally jumped out of Qinziao, but it was enough for this jerk only. Allegedly, the tszsimsky strait did not go because the boilers were already flowing: he wouldn’t give another jerk.

                      And so what are the reasons .... There is an opinion that, say, the fuel consumption of him was initially against the stated. But maybe of course because the drivers are like that.
                      1. 24hours
                        24hours 15 February 2016 00: 48
                        0
                        Quote: AK64
                        And when you try to get away from Tsushima, the latter burst

                        Boilers? Or water pipes? In general, to bring Schulz-Tornicroft boilers to such a state, one must try. However, there are no barriers for hand-worn.
                        Quote: AK64
                        His fuel overrun was one and a half times against the passport.

                        Chad did not have to give. Especially at night. Fuel consumption was very dependent on the speed of the cars. There is a difference at times, so 1,5 times, this is nonsense.
                        Quote: AK64
                        Allegedly, the tszsimsky strait didn’t go because the boilers were already flowing: he wouldn’t give another jerk.

                        As you read about RIF, the only thing that comes to mind is "now diarrhea, now scrofula." Everything flowed there. Everything was falling apart there. The bearings were warming up. All there was not thank God. I think half of these stories are fictional. Like a story about the speed of the Varyag, which is completely obvious.
                        Quote: AK64
                        There is an opinion that let’s say fuel consumption from him was initially against what was declared.

                        These are the features of his three-shaft machine circuit.
                        In all those cases when I was interested in this issue, the three-shaft circuits had excessive fuel consumption. Is always. In the calculations there was one thing, in fact, another. Therefore, in normal countries, three-shaft ships were built extremely rarely, although they cost less than two-shaft ships of the same total power. It was difficult to find buyers. But Russia was just not against "saving". Or throw out some other trick. This happened with Bayan (there were 2 shafts, but the cars were not powerful enough due to "economical unification" with the machines of the Tsarevich), with Askold (as a result, near a large reconnaissance cruiser, although there was a long range in the project), with Novik (in principle, he nursed his range to a minimum, but it was expensive), with Boyarin (a strange trough with dead vehicles below the baseboard, the result of a "diplomatic purchase" at home the dowager empress).
                        Own ships in Russia almost always built three-shaft for another reason, there were no powerful cars. I had to take them in quantity, and in return pay with the radius of action and the cost of operation. Or buy abroad, as for Petropavlovsk.
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 20: 04
                  +1
                  Quote: 24hours
                  Which one is Tsushima at Korsakov's? No, at first she caught up with this "excellent walker" (25,5 knots) on her "nowhere worthless Nikloss boilers" (20 knots), and then zashiblaa

                  Here is the "expert", God forgive me :)))
                  Quote: 24hours
                  But the question remains.

                  Why are you a passerby, you don’t even know that Novik was after the fight? What was he in Korsakovsk (as if in the depths of the bay) exit and which Tsushima blocked him? And do you seriously believe that in Korsakovsk there were deposits of a first-class cardiff with which the cruiser could develop a full speed? And you do not know that by that time Essen already did not command Novik?
                  Do you even know about anything else? However, I know very well that not :))) You might think the first time we communicate.
                  1. Schilda
                    Schilda 15 February 2016 19: 25
                    0
                    Exactly! By that time he commanded the battleship "Sevastopol"
    6. Gomunkul
      Gomunkul 13 February 2016 17: 21
      0
      Situation before the battle
      The Russian cruiser "Varyag" and the gunboat "Koreets" were on a diplomatic mission in the bay near the town of Chemulpo. There were also the Japanese cruiser Chiyoda and ships of several neutral powers: the British cruiser Talbot, the French cruiser Pascal, the Italian cruiser Elba, the American gunboat Vicksburg, and the Korean military steamer Yang-mu.

      On the night of January 25 (February 7), the Japanese cruiser Chiyoda left the raid without lights and met the approaching Japanese squadron. On January 26 (February 8), at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, the gunboat "Koreets" weighed anchor and went out to sea. When leaving the raid of Chemulpo, the "Koreets" met a Japanese squadron of six cruisers ("Naniwa", the flag of Admiral Uriu, "Asama", "Chiyoda", "Niitaka", "Takachiho", "Akashi"), 8 destroyers of the 1st class, an advice letter for "Chihaya" and 3 military transports: "Dairen-maru", "Otaru-maru" and "Heizo-maru". At the exit from the harbor "Asama" blocked the way "Koreytsu".

      The "Korean" had to return to the Chemulpo raid. According to international laws, the Japanese could not attack Russian ships located in a neutral port, on the other hand, according to the same laws, Russian ships could not attack Japanese transports when they entered the port. Therefore, Uriu sent the cruisers "Takachiho", "Asama" and "Chiyoda" with destroyers and transports to the raid and to disembark the Japanese troops. By evening all of them, except for the Chiyoda, left the harbor.

      In the morning at 7 o'clock. 30 minutes, the commanders of foreign ships: English - "Talbot", French - "Pascal", Italian - "Elba" and American - "Vicksburg" received a notice indicating the time of delivery of the notice from the Japanese admiral about the beginning of hostilities between Russia and Japan and that the admiral suggested that the Russian courts leave the raid by 12 o'clock. days, otherwise they will be attacked by the squadron in the roads after 4:9. the same day, and foreign ships were asked to leave the raid at this time, for their safety. This information was delivered to the Varyag by the commander of the cruiser Pascal. At 30:27 am on January 9 (February XNUMX), on board the Talbot, Captain Rudnev received a notification from the Japanese admiral Uriu, announcing that Japan and Russia were at war and demanding that the Varyag leave the port by noon. otherwise at four o'clock the Japanese ships will fight in the roads. The last of the Japanese cruisers, Chiyoda, at this time weighed anchor and left the harbor.
  12. Alekst
    Alekst 13 February 2016 08: 56
    +7
    Quote: Pig
    The clearest illustration is not the topic: "Russians know how to die but only stupidly" ...
    it is clear that in that shameful war, at least some kind of "peremoga" was needed and the crew of the "Varyag", for not having others, suited this role perfectly
    this, of course, does not in any way detract from the greatness of the feat of ordinary sailors and officers, but Mr. Rudnev had to be tried by the tribunal for stupidly lost ships and dead people

    Rudnev probably knew better what and how to do, plus he wasn’t condemned at that time ...
    1. Pig
      Pig 13 February 2016 10: 08
      -5
      "" plus he was not condemned at that time ... ""
      condemn the Hero ??? except for "Varyag" there is nothing to be proud of in that war ...
      By the way, they wanted to judge Rudnev, but under pressure from the "public" they fell behind ... against the background of Rozhdestvensky, Nebogatov and other Ukhtomsky, he is really a Hero!
      The hero was simply given rear admiral and dismissed in the prime of life;)
      1. bionik
        bionik 13 February 2016 10: 23
        +3
        Quote: Pig

        The hero was simply given rear admiral and dismissed in the prime of life;)

        ....
        In November 1905, V. F. Rudnev refused to take (at that time he was the commander of the squadron battleship "Andrew the First Called") disciplinary measures against the revolutionary-minded sailors of his crew. The consequence of this was his dismissal.
        1. Pig
          Pig 13 February 2016 11: 41
          -4
          "" In November 1905, V. F. Rudnev refused to take (at that time he was the commander of the battleship Andrew the First-Called) disciplinary measures against the revolutionary-minded sailors of his crew. The consequence of this was his dismissal of him ""
          Soviet version - The Legendary Hero, almost a secret Bolshevik stomped by damned tsarism, was born during the Patriotic War 41-45
          then many "royal" heroes were "rehabilitated"
        2. svp67
          svp67 13 February 2016 12: 40
          -1
          Quote: bionik
          He refused to take (at that time he was the commander of the squadron battleship "Andrei Pervozvanny") disciplinary measures against the revolutionary-minded sailors of his crew. The consequence of this was his dismissal.

          With the rank of rear admiral? Yes you are in your mind ...
      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 11: 04
        +3
        Quote: Pig
        except for "Varyag" there is nothing to be proud of in that war ..

        Well, yes, neither the guardian nor the Don, nothing ...
        Quote: Pig
        Rudnev incidentally wanted to judge

        no need to repeat ravings of abacus / chornovil
        1. sibiryouk
          sibiryouk 13 February 2016 12: 37
          +1
          And also the battle of the Vladivostok cruisers where RURIK died and another min. Decisive as well as the actions of the minzag under the command of Ivanov sunk TWO Japanese armadillos!
          1. 24hours
            24hours 13 February 2016 12: 40
            -4
            Quote: sibiryouk
            as well as the actions of the minzag under the command of Ivanov who drowned TWO Japanese armadillos!

            Another "enthusiastic storyteller". I heard a ringing, but did not know where he was.
            1. sibiryouk
              sibiryouk 13 February 2016 15: 51
              +1
              On the mines delivered by the mine loader Amur (com. Ivanov) on May 1, 1904-May 2, 2 Japanese armadillos were blown up and sank - this is a fact !!! Not fairy tales.
              1. 24hours
                24hours 13 February 2016 16: 05
                -3
                Quote: sibiryouk
                On the mines put by the mine layer Amur (comm. Ivanov)

                Ask who sent them there. The surname of the minzag commander did not matter.
                1. sibiryouk
                  sibiryouk 13 February 2016 18: 55
                  0
                  An interesting logic-the commander of the ship who completed the successful mine setting for NO reason. Yes, just attended!
                  1. 24hours
                    24hours 13 February 2016 18: 59
                    -1
                    Quote: sibiryouk
                    Nothing. Yes, just attended!

                    Just faithfully complied with the order. So it’s accepted in the army. For this is usually not awarded, it is considered normal.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. 24hours
            24hours 13 February 2016 17: 07
            -1
            Quote: sibiryouk
            And the battle of the Vladivostok cruisers where RURIK died

            That's really where there is absolutely nothing to be proud of.
            1. sibiryouk
              sibiryouk 13 February 2016 18: 58
              +3
              RURIK fought and died, and did not surrender like the ships of the detachment of Admiral Nebogatov.
              1. 24hours
                24hours 13 February 2016 19: 10
                +2
                Quote: sibiryouk
                RURIK fought and died, and did not surrender like the ships of the detachment of Admiral Nebogatov.

                You will be surprised, but also to die fighting is also considered a normal occurrence in the army during the war. There is nothing heroic about this. Just the crew faithfully carried out their military duty. Heroism is the fulfillment of something that goes beyond the ordinary fulfillment of military duty.
      3. 24hours
        24hours 13 February 2016 11: 12
        -3
        Quote: Pig
        except for "Varyag" there is nothing to be proud of in that war ...

        Doubtful statement. Especially when you consider that the ship was surrendered to the Japanese.
        But Admirals Wittgeft can be proud and necessary. He carried out the only brilliant RIF operation at sea at that time. Immediately a third of the linear fleet of Japan sent to the bottom. Moreover, completely lossless. And he died with dignity, in battle, commanding a squadron.
        But they are not proud, they forgot. Instead, they invent all kinds of nonsense and fake idols, and they are proud of it.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 11: 17
          +1
          Quote: 24hours
          But Admirals Wittgeft can be proud and necessary. He carried out the only brilliant RIF operation at sea at that time. Immediately a third of the linear fleet of Japan sent to the bottom

          There is still no particular merit of Witgeft - the commander of the minzag pissed off :)
          Quote: 24hours
          Doubtful statement. Especially when you consider that the ship was surrendered to the Japanese

          Again a new word in the epistolary genre ... When did the Varangian surrender to the Japanese? Nothing that the Varangian was flooded in the NEUTRAL port? :)
          1. 24hours
            24hours 13 February 2016 11: 40
            -2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            There is still no particular merit of Witgeft - the commander of the minzag pissed off :)

            Why are you telling me stories? I'm not a preschooler. You have chosen the wrong "audience".
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            When did the Varangian surrender to the Japanese?

            Take an interest in the Internet.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Nothing that the Varangian was flooded in the NEUTRAL port? :)

            1. Not flooded, but flooded. These words in Russian carry a different semantic load.
            2. The "neutral port", where the Varyag was submerged, ceased to be so long before this happened. Therefore, the Varyag team did not go ashore, there were the Japanese. It was a port occupied by the Japanese. Not neutral anymore.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 12: 11
              +6
              Quote: 24hours
              Why are you telling me tales? I'm not a preschooler boy

              Are you a preschooler girl? Excuse me, please, through the monitor the floor of the interlocutor is not visible.
              And the fact that the minzag commander put mines not where ordered, but where he decided himself, as it were, well-known.
              Quote: 24hours
              Take an interest in the Internet

              What for? You said that, I’m interested in you
              Quote: 24hours
              It was a Japanese-occupied port

              Which, after the victorious end of the war (could Rudnev doubt it?) Would again become neutral. So Rudnev incapacitated the cruiser so that it MUST NOT be used in the war (the Japanese, despite the fact that they began work on lifting immediately, could raise the Varangian only after the war).
              1. 24hours
                24hours 13 February 2016 13: 14
                -4
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Are you a preschooler girl?

                Girl, girl, take it easy. The main thing is to stop telling tales.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                and where he decided himself, as it were, well-known.

                It is well known that nothing is done in the army without an order. And even more so, no officer will go on to mine the transport corridor on his own initiative.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                You said that, I’m interested in you

                At the time of flooding.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Which, after the victorious end of the war (could Rudnev doubt it?) Would again become neutral.

                Here, again, fairy tales. Have you served in the army? Have you read books called Charter? There is nothing written about the need to calculate everything for 33 moves ahead. Is the port captured by the Japanese? Captured. So the commander is not entitled to leave any military property there. Because according to the Charter, this means its transfer to the enemy. And it does not matter who and when then owns this port.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                So Rudnev incapacitated the cruiser so that it WAS NOT be used in the war

                Andrey, fabulist Krylov who are you?
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 20: 13
                  +1
                  Quote: 24hours
                  It is well known that nothing is done in the army without an order

                  This is not even nonsense, this is just a dream of the mind. In Tsushima, Baron Fersen, apparently, led his "Emerald" to a breakthrough on the direct orders of Nebogatov? Is it okay that he violated an order from a superior superior?
                  Quote: 24hours
                  And even more so, no officer will go on to mine the transport corridor on his own initiative.

                  But the commander of Amur took a chance. And he won.
                  Quote: 24hours
                  Here, again, fairy tales. Have you served in the army? Have you read books called Charter? There is nothing written about the need to calculate everything for 33 moves ahead. Is the port captured by the Japanese? Captured. So the commander has no right to leave any military property there

                  But Rudnev did everything strictly according to the charter. It’s just that you need to read the charter exactly as it is written, everything is very clear and simple there, you don’t need to add your own crazy interpretations. The cruiser was disabled by him so that the Japanese could not use it.
                  Quote: 24hours
                  Andrey, fabulist Krylov who are you?

                  One of the favorite authors. And you, mon sher, no matter how you sit down (and with what nicknames do not hide behind) you are not good at historians :)
                  Well, or tell a heartbreaking story about how the Japans introduced the Varangian to the fleet during the war :)
          2. amba balamut 77
            amba balamut 77 13 February 2016 23: 27
            +2
            Andrei, it’s broader than you to deal with entoy liberalist, all Russian r ... oh, and the fact that Europe is ento good. Last name Vitgeft-gud, last name Ivanov-g ... about. And the fact that the wise Vitgeft wanted Ivanov to be brought to justice for his initiative, is for him trifles.
      4. Alex
        Alex 13 February 2016 11: 15
        +3
        Listen, artiodactyl, you are obviously either off topic, or simply distributing liberoid delirium. Although it is possible that both.
        1. semirek
          semirek 13 February 2016 22: 03
          0
          Quote: Alex
          Listen, artiodactyl, you are obviously either off topic, or simply distributing liberoid delirium. Although it is possible that both.

          good
      5. svp67
        svp67 13 February 2016 12: 39
        0
        Quote: Pig
        except for "Varyag" there is nothing to be proud of in that war ...

        Read V. Pikul "Cruiser" and you will find reason to be proud ...
        1. 24hours
          24hours 13 February 2016 12: 44
          -4
          Quote: svp67
          Read V. Pikul "Cruiser" and you will find reason to be proud ...

          And if you read the fabulist Krylov, then there are generally full of them.
          Ditched Jessen Rurik that day? Clear? Consciously and purposefully, he covered his favorite carcass with it. Although there was a chance to go back together. And this chance was real. But he got scared, rushed about and ruined Rurik with his "throwing".
          Here's a reason to be proud.
          1. svp67
            svp67 13 February 2016 14: 50
            +2
            Quote: 24hours
            Here's a reason to be proud.

            What a strange one you are ... You see everything only in black, and in this book there is enough white tone
            1. 24hours
              24hours 13 February 2016 15: 09
              -1
              Quote: svp67
              and in this book, white is enough

              In books, they write a lot of different things. To read.
  13. AK64
    AK64 13 February 2016 09: 23
    -5
    I would like to wish the author to learn how to use at least Google
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 11: 21
      0
      I would like to return the same wish to you
      1. AK64
        AK64 13 February 2016 18: 00
        0
        So you wrote this nonsense?
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 20: 13
          0
          Quote: AK64
          What nonsense did you write?

          The first is not bullshit. The second - I did not write.
          1. AK64
            AK64 13 February 2016 22: 33
            +1
            That is nonsense: the author was too lazy to even make such a small thing as finding a list of ships of the Japanese detachment.
            He could have done that. But he didn’t do that either.

            Instead, he confined himself to ordinary mantras and a beat in a tambourine, at a pioneer level. This is not a debriefing of the battle, but an ordinary propaganda, for which a normal person of time should be sorry.

            And most importantly: why write it at all? Or is it itchy to see your name on the Internet?
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 22: 53
              0
              Quote: AK64
              Instead, he confined himself to ordinary mantras and a beat in a tambourine, at a pioneer level. This is not a debriefing of the battle, but an ordinary propaganda, for which a normal person of time should be sorry.

              This is not propaganda, but a completely adequate presentation of what happened in reality. Unfortunately, in the wild 90s there was a great demand for disclosures - everyone wanted to believe that we were wrong about everything before, but now we are on the right capitalist path. And on this turbid wave, all sorts of additional assessments / rezuns rose - they made money with frank (but sensational!) Lies. For a person more or less familiar with military history, these attempts could not cause anything but a healthy laugh, but the people, alas, swallowed. So now we are "admiring" the "information victims" of the latter's irrepressible greed.
      2. AK64
        AK64 13 February 2016 18: 00
        0
        So you wrote this nonsense?
  14. Roy
    Roy 13 February 2016 09: 46
    +2
    Eternal memory and glory to our ancestral heroes! Motherland - keeps a memory of you!
  15. UVB
    UVB 13 February 2016 10: 12
    +1
    The heroism of Russian sailors is not in the least doubt! But Rudnev’s actions raise questions. Why not take in the Korean crew and try to break through with one cruiser, and at low tide, the draft allowed the ship, but put Asam out of brackets? There were chances. Well, this is from the area if only if only! The main question: why was the cruiser actually presented to the Japanese? The Korean was blown up properly in deep water, and the Varangian was drowned in shallow water by the discovery of the Kingstones? / clickable /
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 11: 06
      +4
      Quote: UVB
      Why not take in the Korean crew and try to break through with one cruiser, and at low tide, the draft allowed the ship, but put Asam out of brackets?

      Nobody took anyone there and anywhere. In addition, with 17 ceremonial bonds of the Varyag, the breakthrough was doomed anyway
      1. UVB
        UVB 13 February 2016 11: 29
        -1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In addition, with 17 ceremonial bonds "Varyag" breakthrough in any case was doomed

        No one knows what would happen if ... etc. But, I repeat, what Rudnev did after the battle, it borders on almost treason! Why didn’t the Varyag explode in depth like a Korean ?! The fact that he flooded the cruiser in shallow water is nothing but a gift to the Japanese. What they used quite quickly.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 12: 16
          +3
          Quote: UVB
          Why didn’t the Varyag explode in depth like a Korean ?!

          Imagine that he did it. And Russia took - and won the Russo-Japanese (which is interesting - if Russia would have continued the war EVEN after Tsushima - that would have happened). And what would you write then?
          “Rudnev panicked ... Instead of soberly judging that the victory of huge Russia over a small yoniya was inevitable and keeping the cruiser for the Russian fleet, sinking it in shallow water, he, obeying an indistinct impulse, blew up a first-class ship. that after the victorious end of the war, Chemulpo would regain neutral status and the cruiser would be raised, repaired, and for many years would have plowed the seas under the St. Andrew's banner! "
          You forget that Rudnev didn’t HAVE a time machine and he couldn’t know that Russia would lose the war
          1. 24hours
            24hours 13 February 2016 13: 18
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Imagine that he did it. And Russia took - and won the Russo-Japanese (which is interesting - if Russia would have continued the war EVEN after Tsushima - that would have happened).

            There is a charter. There is nothing to imagine. The abandonment of military property in the territory occupied by the enemy is its transfer to the enemy. Everything is clear, clear and understandable.
            To avoid this, Rudnev had to blow up the Varangian, because there were no suitable depths for guaranteed flooding in Chemulpo Bay.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 20: 23
              0
              Quote: 24hours
              There is a charter.

              And Rudnev acted in strict accordance with the latter :) Read the Charter, enlighten.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. AK64
            AK64 13 February 2016 18: 20
            0
            Imagine that he did it. And Russia took - and won the Russo-Japanese (which is interesting - if Russia would have continued the war EVEN after Tsushima - that would have happened). And what would you write then?


            They would write that the commander did his duty.

            And, by the way, you would rather break the chairs with something, read Rudnev's report: after all, he confirmed in the report that he was "rendered useless" (that is, walked through and smashed the glass on the manometers with keys).
            And nowhere did Rudnev write "taking into account that soon Russia will take Chemulpo again ...". Rudnev does not write this ANYWHERE. But it says "destroyed".

            So there’s no need to fantasize.

            Rudnev is not a cruiser commander, Rudnev is an official, and the main thing he had was "how could something come of it?" That is why, instead of preparing for a battle, he went to the telegraph office for the day, running back and forth, back and forth, sending telegrams, requesting instructions. I was afraid to be mistaken. After all, what is the main thing for an official? After all, it is not a duty to fulfill - the main thing is not to make a mistake.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 20: 40
              0
              Quote: AK64
              And, by the way, you would rather break the chairs with something, read Rudnev's report: after all, he confirmed in the report that he was "rendered useless" (that is, walked through and smashed the glass on the manometers with keys).

              Because they were rendered unusable, the Japanese were not able to commission the cruiser during that war.
              Quote: AK64
              And nowhere did Rudnev write "taking into account that Russia will soon take Chemulpo again ...". Rudnev does not write this ANYWHERE.

              It’s clear that nowhere. There is a fact - the Japanese, having begun work on raising the cruiser in early 1904, despite all efforts, were able to put the cruiser into operation already in 1907. It was built faster :)))
              Nevertheless, it was possible to return the cruiser to service. So Rudnev did everything right.
              Quote: AK64
              Rudnev is not the commander of the cruiser, Rudnev is an official, and the main thing he had was "how could something come out?"

              Yeah. That is why he went into battle against the Japanese squadron on a slow-moving cruiser with inexperienced commandants.
          4. The comment was deleted.
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 20: 14
          0
          Quote: UVB
          What they used quite quickly.

          After the war.
      2. 24hours
        24hours 13 February 2016 11: 33
        -1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In addition, with 17 ceremonial bonds "Varyag" breakthrough in any case was doomed

        Don't fantasize. He showed this speed for a short time after the first "repair" in Russia. He was then returned to the factory and the speed increased to 1 knots, which was also very small. An additional survey showed that the valves in the boilers were set by the ship's mechanics to 21 atm, with the design 14 atm. Just in case, of course.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 12: 18
          0
          Quote: 24hours
          Don't fantasize

          Go read Melnikov, he has given all the reports on how much the Varangian kept before leaving for Chemulpo. The ship showed 21 knots for a very short time, after which it again had breakdowns in the car and had to slow down to 14 knots
          1. 24hours
            24hours 13 February 2016 13: 26
            -1
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Go read Melnikov

            Melnikov is not far from the fabulist Krylov.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            he has given all the reports on how much the Varangian kept before leaving for Chemulpo

            Do not make me laugh. And don't be creative. The guaranteed residual speed of the Varyag before the war was to be 22,5 knots. If it was less (which was not confirmed by anything at all, after the well-known events, when the Varyag crew was "corrected"), then this is a reason to declare to the commander about incomplete service compliance.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            after which he again had breakdowns in the car and was forced to slow down to 14 knots

            You will soon agree that he had no move at all. Will invent something. He draped from the Japanese (back to the bay) against the current quite cheerfully. He had a move for this.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 20: 31
              0
              Quote: 24hours
              Melnikov is not far from the fabulist Krylov.

              Well, yes, it’s either Dotsenko / Chornovil, who has three “mistakes” in each paragraph. People lie without blushing, they lie verifiably, there is enough minimal familiarity with the topic to understand it.
              But they, of course, are a torch of truth, and Melnikov - so, passed by laughing
              Quote: 24hours
              If it was less (which has not been confirmed by anything at all, after the well-known events when the Varyag crew was "corrected"),

              I say - go read Melnikov. He writes with links to documents and does not shy from quotes from them. And he has everything - and how many times the Varangians at Dalniy were tested, and what speed he showed at the same time.
              Quote: 24hours
              then this is an occasion to declare to the commander about incomplete official compliance.

              Well, say so. Do not forget to only indicate to whom do you declare this official inconsistency? PR and which commander Varyag had problems with the chassis? Under Baer, ​​who commanded before Rudnev :))) And you can’t even figure it out :)))
      3. AK64
        AK64 13 February 2016 18: 07
        -1
        About 17 nodes and troubles with cars - this is AFTER the plot self-dispatch of Rudnev. No evidence that the Varangian did not give 20 knots was not found and did not show.

        And Rudnev’s fault that the cruiser didn’t detonate (preferably on the fairway)
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 20: 58
          +1
          Quote: AK64
          About 17 nodes and troubles with cars - this is AFTER the plot self-dispatch of Rudnev. No evidence that the Varangian did not give 20 knots was not found and did not show.

          You at least read the BASIS on the topic. http://cruiserx.net/melnikov/m158_167.htm#f8
          On October 16, reporting to Zolotaya Gora that the Sivuch gunboat remains the oldest in the raid, the cruiser again anchored. As before, on board were the chief mechanical engineer of the port V.N. Shilov, the engineer of the port, 16 locksmiths and 6 Chinese workers. Nearly 12 hours in all directions, the cruiser cruised the coastal waters of Port Arthur, either slowing down, then increasing speed and counting 157 miles on the lag. At noon, the speed was increased to 130 rpm, but the vapor pressure dropped from 15,8 atm to 12 atm.. Having put into operation the remaining eight boilers, they increased the pressure to 14-15 atm and gradually increased the rotation speed to 140 rpm, then after an hour they reduced it to 125 rpm, and by the end of the test they were again brought to 140 rpm 8.

          The speed in this case, due to the cruiser overload, apparently did not exceed 20,5 knots.

          So, even 130-140 revolutions did not give more than 20,5 knots.
          On November 12, the "Varangian" again went to sea to run in the bearings at low speed. The tests were attended on November 15 by members of a special commission established to test the mechanisms and inspect boilers on the ships of the squadron: the flagship mechanical engineer A. A. Lukyanov (chairman), mechanical engineer of the port V. N. Shilov and a group of mechanics from the ships of the squadron. The tests lasted three hours. The rotational speed from 80 rpm was brought to 130, but then reduced to 50 - the bearings were warmed up again. Under the steam there were 29 boilers at a pressure of 14 to 15,8 atm.

          In other words, whenever there were attempts to accelerate to 20-20,5 knots, the cruiser began to have problems with the chassis.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 20: 59
            0
            In the book published by the Varyag commander VF Rudnev after the Russo-Japanese War, the test failure was explained by the “unsatisfactory metal” of the bearings, as a result of which the cruiser speed was limited to 14 knots. The author of these lines heard a similar explanation from the oldest mechanical engineer of our fleet P.V. Vorobyev, who then served on the destroyer Vlastny and was well acquainted with the mechanical engineer of the Varyag, Y. S. Soldatov. It turns out that the head bearings of the connecting rods, made of some particularly hard bronze, which allowed high specific pressures, were to blame. And when it's time to change the bearings,
            there was no such material in Port Arthur and all attempts to make a new casting failed. From archival documents, it is known that bronze liners for bearings, among many spare parts for Retvisan, were ordered in America by E. N. Schensnovich, but they never got to Port Arthur. Finally, in the materials on the construction of the ship there are references to high specific pressures, the difficulty of choosing lubricating oil and the unreliability of the lubrication system. But no one, of course, could have imagined what the rationalization of Krump would actually turn out to be, which in an effort to reduce the size and weight of the power plant more than once crossed the permissible limits. That is why even a complete correction of Varyag machines could not provide him with full speed. The MTK came to such an unambiguous conclusion in November 1903 after considering the June report of Admiral E. I. Alekseev about the misadventures of the "Varyag."
            In a meeting chaired by the chief inspector N. G. Nozikov and with the participation of inspectors V. I. Afonasyev, F. A. Tyulev and the flagship mechanical engineer F. Ya. Porechkin, materials for Varyag acceptance in America and tests at the Port were examined in detail -Arthur. It was noted that upon arrival in Kronstadt the speed of the "Varyag" on the measuring line was not checked, but the fact of achieving 23-knot speed in America was not in doubt. Now, comparing the test results of the “Varyag”, “Askold” and “Bogatyr”, the MTK came to the conclusion that with the achieved capacity of the mechanisms on the “Varyag” 14147 liters. with. the speed could only slightly exceed 21 knots, although the machines are indeed able to develop a capacity of 20000 liters. with. and with a displacement of 6500 tons and a clean underwater surface, they can provide a speed of 23 knots.
            However, with boilers that were on the cruiser, it was impossible to guarantee such a speed, according to the MTK. The danger of tube rupture did not allow stokers to constantly maintain forced combustion in the furnaces, and even neglecting this danger, it was hardly possible to maintain the required steam output of the boilers for any length of time. The danger of accidents cannot be eliminated by installing thicker tubes in the lower rows. The only safety measure is “moderate heating”, so the MTK came to the conclusion that while Nikloss’s boilers remain on the “Varyag”, its speed, even if the machines are in good working order, will not exceed those 20 knots that were obtained when the cruiser was re-deepened during tests in Port- Arthur
            (with reference to the Central Administration of the Navy, f. 417, op. 1, d. 21298, p. 280.)
            1. 24hours
              24hours 14 February 2016 19: 53
              -1
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Now, comparing the test results of the “Varyag”, “Askold” and “Bogatyr”, the MTK came to the conclusion that with the achieved capacity of the mechanisms on the “Varyag” 14147 liters. with. the speed could only slightly exceed 21 knots, although the machines are indeed able to develop a capacity of 20000 liters. with. and with a displacement of 6500 tons and a clean underwater surface, they can provide a speed of 23 knots.

              The fact that you are "not particularly in the topic" of the fleet, judging by the discussions on this thread, the fact is already quite obvious. But you can't substitute yourself like that. And spread the frank Murzilka with a clever look. Also with reference to the Central State Administration of the Navy.
              You didn’t come up with it yourself, it’s understandable. But the level of your "sources" is perfectly visible. And the level of your understanding of the issue.
              I don’t know who was there and what was discussing, but another engineer of historical sciences, just like you, did not know at all that there were some "oddities" in the USA (now the USA). They consist in the fact that they measure the speed in knots, the distance at sea in nautical miles, everything, as in pre-revolutionary Russia. But they measure power in kilowatts. This is their feature. And 14147, these are not indicator forces, as in Russia of those years, but kilowatts. And 14147 kilowatts will be 19234 indicator forces. And this figure just puts everything in its place, tk. on tests Varyag showed average power at 12h. mileage of 14158 (not 14147) kW (19249 ind.force) and a speed of 23,18 knots. And the maximum speed is 24,59 knots with a power of 16198 kW (22023 ind. Forces). The design capacity of his machines was 20000 ind. forces or 14710 kW. Everything is correct, everything is consistent with hydrodynamics.
              Your source found a "sensation" and clothed it in the form of something official there. And you fell for it like a child. By misunderstanding, of course, not by malice.
            2. The comment was deleted.
      4. Alf
        Alf 13 February 2016 19: 38
        +2
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In addition, with 17 ceremonial bonds "Varyag" breakthrough in any case was doomed

        And what REAL speed could Japanese cruisers give? In addition, all the "strategists" forget about 2 factors - a narrow winding fairway, on which there are 17 or 23 knots, and the arrangement of Japanese ships, in which the Varyag had to go "through the ranks". No move will help here. Yet. Varyag-cruiser for Bolshaya Voda, there were no classmates equal to Varyag in the Japanese fleet. On the high seas, he could hit any Japanese armored deck, and the chances of a breakthrough when meeting an armored cruiser were not small. An example is Askold's breakthrough.
        P.S. The minus is not mine.
        1. AK64
          AK64 13 February 2016 22: 43
          0
          And what REAL speed could Japanese cruisers give? In addition, all the "strategists" forget about 2 factors - a narrow winding fairway, on which there are 17 or 23 knots, and the arrangement of Japanese ships, in which the Varyag had to go "through the ranks". No move will help here.

          There was no "through construction" there.
          The enemy of the Varangian, in fact, if there was one - Asama. When Vaoyag appeared, Asama went down the strait from the Varangian to keep him in the affected area longer.

          But ... in vain Asama was in a hurry: Rudnev turned back almost immediately. IMHO, Rudnev thought about the report that he would write there. "I made an attempt."
    2. ICT
      ICT 13 February 2016 12: 39
      +1
      Quote: UVB
      Korean exploded in deep water

      with haze


      when the smoke has settled
  16. 24hours
    24hours 13 February 2016 10: 59
    0
    And how proud was the Varangian?
    Unfortunately, we must admit the fact that we live in a fictional world. Which has a very distant relationship to reality. All known stories of "heroes" are more or less "slightly specified" by the authorities with only one goal, ideological. The story about the "proud Varyag" is no exception. Moreover, just this story, it was not "specified" by the authorities at all, it was "specified" by "European patriots" (not even in Russia and not in Russia), and only then the Russian leadership did not begin to discredit it. Also for ideological reasons.
    First of all, what was the Varangian? Varangian was only in the RIF by a large trade fighter cruiser. To command such a cruiser was status, however, the ship was in poor technical condition. The fact is that this was the first RIF ship with four-cylinder engines, and in the RIF and three-cylinder they really did not know how to service. Saving. The ships were bought at a high price, and the crews were saved for 3 copecks. In addition, to save weight, the ship was equipped with Nikloss boilers. Nice boilers, but they had a big minus for the Russian service, they had to be constantly serviced. On Retvisan service was established, and not Varangian, there were problems. With all the ensuing. Moreover, even in this state in 1904. The Varangian all early was no worse than the Japanese counteraction ships, and therefore could well be used for its intended purpose. That's the margin of safety and performance characteristics was laid down in the cruiser by its builder, American Kramp.
    What is a hospital? Hospital cruisers were the so-called Colonial Cruisers. Those. ships called by their guns to force the natives to peace (or war, who needed what). Therefore, the platform itself didn’t have much significance for such ships, it couldn’t catch up with a pie, a musket bullet wouldn’t reach, etc. In addition, outdated galoshes, i.e. old ships of other types with more or less noticeable artillery weapons. At the same time, they were rarely built on purpose (except for maritime powers). In the RIF, an example of such a cruiser was Svetlana, built in France. “Interesting" also lies in the fact that a little later in Russia, for some devil, this same Svetlana was scaled larger and built in the amount of as many as 3 pieces (Pallas series). Why did Russia need as many as 4 specially built in-patient cruisers, is this a big question? Maybe some overseas colonies were planning to snatch from someone? Who so often planned to "show their flag"?
    It remains to be added that during the war these same colonial cruisers usually became escort ships, as no longer good for anything. If convoys were not foreseen, then the colonial cruisers became the main ships of the naval bases. Drive away enemy destroyers and small fighter cruisers. And generally speaking. Nimble on the little things to the best of their weaknesses.
    At a time when the next head of the next admiral (there is no sense in giving names, they were all about the same; except Admiral Witgeft, of course) decided to send the only large cruiser fighter in the RIF to Chemulpo for the role of a hospital worker, as many as 2 full-time dangled in Port Arthur hospital cruiser, Pallas and Diana. So, the senility of this decision is visible to the naked eye.
    To be continued ...
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 11: 14
      +6
      Quote: 24hours
      Unfortunately, we must admit the fact that we live in a fictional world.

      The content of your post is absolutely understandable, but do not speak for others - we and the Varangian live in the real world.
      Quote: 24hours
      The Varangian was the only merchant cruiser in the RIF.

      A phrase that kills on the spot with its illiteracy. In the Russian Empire, it was considered necessary to build six thousandth armored cruisers, their own shipyards were inundated with orders, so they ordered three ships according to a single TZ (12-152-mm, 6000 tons and 23 knots) of Germany (Bogatyr), France (Askold) and the USA "Varyag) again with a view to building the best project at their own shipyards. ”All three of these cruisers were in the Far East by the beginning of the RYAV.
      1. UVB
        UVB 13 February 2016 11: 32
        0
        Askold was built not in France but in Germany, the French built eb Tsesarevich.
      2. 24hours
        24hours 13 February 2016 12: 07
        -1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        we and the Varangian live in the real world

        I remember the depth of your "knowledge" in this matter. If I'm not mistaken, even in the article about Tsushima you were thoroughly tinkered with a face about a table.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The phrase killing on the spot with its ignorance.

        I wrote about your "competence" in this topic in the last paragraph. I confirm, in fact. It doesn't even make sense to discuss this with you, as you are not aware of it. But suppose yourself, of course, exactly the opposite. So the tale about the "self-willed commander of the minesag" has already been screwed higher.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In the Russian Imperia, it was considered necessary to build six thousandth armored cruisers, their own shipyards were inundated with orders, so they ordered three ships under a single TZ (12-152-mm, 6000 tons and 23 knots) of Germany (Bogatyr), France (Askold) and the USA "Varyag) again meaning to build the best project in their shipyards.

        Askold, as UVB corrected you correctly, was built in Germany.
        All the six-thousand ships were for different purposes (oh, Andrey, don't faint). Despite your "uniform terms of reference". And in general, remember for the future, a similar displacement and even a similar speed, and even a similar armament and even a similar type of hull armor do not say unequivocally about the same purpose of the ships. There you have to look deeper, there are a million nuances, and not the way you do it.
        The Varangian was a trade fighter cruiser. Great and very successful. Another small cruiser fighter-trade was Boyarin (not very successful, but tolerant). More trade fighter cruisers in the RIF did not have. In general, Andrew, in general.
        Askold and Bogatyr were the ships of opposition to the very same fighter cruisers, reconnaissance cruisers. These are the smaller armored relatives of their older armored brethren (the same Asama or Iwate). But not the smallest, the smallest reconnaissance cruiser in the RIF was called Novik. At the same time, Askold was a ship unsuccessful (but reliable in German), and Bogatyr, quite successful.
        You have forgotten Bayan. It was an armored alternative to Bogatyr. Could be quite interesting if it were not for the "economy". The fact is that there were cars on the Bayan, like on the Tsarevich. Just 4 identical cars cost less than 2 different pairs. The Tsarevich had enough of his cars, but Bayan, no. In addition, there were also problems with the contours of the hull, which negatively affected the efficiency of Bayan. Therefore, in general, he was unsuccessful, although his concept was very interesting.
        About 4 cruiser inpatients (with female names) I already wrote on this thread. I will not repeat myself.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 12: 25
          +3
          Quote: 24hours
          If I’m not mistaken, even in the article about Tsushima you were thoroughly driven with a face about the table.

          This is about my cycle "Myths of Tsushima", which has collected 430 pluses against 28 minuses? Yeah, they were driving like that laughing
          Quote: 24hours
          You don’t even make sense to discuss it, so you are not aware.

          Of course of course:))
          Quote: 24hours
          Askold, as UVB corrected you correctly, was built in Germany

          Yes, I made a mistake in a hurry. Sometimes it happens.
          Quote: 24hours
          All the six-thousand ships were of different purposes (oh, Andrey, don't faint)

          Links to documents confirming the different purpose will be? Of course not, because these are your personal fantasies.
          1. 24hours
            24hours 13 February 2016 13: 41
            -1
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Yeah, they drove it so drove it

            They drove it. And we both understand what is at stake. I especially liked the place where you could not explain the essence of the difference between the full and normal displacement for armored ships. Now we already understood it, I hope?
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Yes, I made a mistake in a hurry. Sometimes it happens.

            It just doesn’t matter.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Links to documents confirming the different purpose will be?

            Do you know, Andrey, what is your problem? The fact that you are discussing v / m topics completely without understanding the essence of the matter. You can not draw conclusions about supposed destination ship. The ship’s weight summary doesn’t tell you anything (namely the article). And even the location and equipment of the guns does not matter to you. You just do not understand why this is so, and not that way. And the completeness of the body, so no one anywhere does not bring it at all, we must calculate it ourselves.
            However, this is not only your problem. Very often engineers of historical sciences are guilty of this. Most of the fairy tales in the internet, just from them and their "books". And you, by misunderstanding, retell them. At the same time, consider yourself an erudite. This would be the case if you were using verified information. And without this you are not an erudite, but ... (think of the name yourself).
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 21: 17
              +1
              Quote: 24hours
              They drove it. And we both understand what is at stake. I especially liked the place where you could not explain the essence of the difference between full and normal displacement for armored ships

              Are you raving? :))) Show me the place where I couldn’t explain it :))
              Quote: 24hours
              Do you know, Andrey, what is your problem?

              I know. It was high time for me to score on such unfortunate experts as you and simply stop participating in discussions with people like you.
              Quote: 24hours
              The fact that you are discussing v / m topics completely without understanding the essence of the matter. Based on the dimensions of the hull and the circuit machine, you cannot draw conclusions about the alleged purpose of the ship

              I have a clear understanding that the finger-drawn classifications made on the basis of the cubic volume of a circle inscribed in a square formed by the height of the shadow of the Leaning Tower of Pisa aboard the three-deck ship of the line have NO relation to the history of shipbuilding and military history
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 12: 25
          0
          Quote: 24hours
          If I’m not mistaken, even in the article about Tsushima you were thoroughly driven with a face about the table.

          This is about my cycle "Myths of Tsushima", which has collected 430 pluses against 28 minuses? Yeah, they were driving like that laughing
          Quote: 24hours
          You don’t even make sense to discuss it, so you are not aware.

          Of course of course:))
          Quote: 24hours
          Askold, as UVB corrected you correctly, was built in Germany

          Yes, I made a mistake in a hurry. Sometimes it happens.
          Quote: 24hours
          All the six-thousand ships were of different purposes (oh, Andrey, don't faint)

          Links to documents confirming the different purpose will be? Of course not, because these are your personal fantasies.
      3. The comment was deleted.
    2. Andy
      Andy 13 February 2016 11: 29
      0
      Bullshit. Varyag was not a trade destroyer. Of course, he could have been used anyway, but his purpose was reconnaissance at the squadron and fire support for this. 12 6-d. thunderbolt-hefty thugs, the latter could be built with towers but the project was rejected. generally obscure ships.
    3. Andy
      Andy 13 February 2016 11: 29
      0
      Bullshit. Varyag was not a trade destroyer. Of course, he could have been used anyway, but his purpose was reconnaissance at the squadron and fire support for this. 12 6-d. thunderbolt-hefty thugs, the latter could be built with towers but the project was rejected. generally obscure ships.
    4. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 13 February 2016 12: 55
      0
      VARIAG can hardly be considered the best cruiser, the artillery on it was not covered by at least armored shields, the speed was also not very good!
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. 24hours
        24hours 13 February 2016 18: 54
        0
        Quote: sibiryouk
        artillery on it was not covered at least by armored plates

        A common thing for trade fighters. There are no guns on vehicles. And the second-rate high-speed trifle with their 120-mm guns is not very scary for him.
        Quote: sibiryouk
        speed is also not very!

        Gosha. 23,2 knots average speed in 12 hour trials with a maximum speed of 24,6 knots, is that not very good? What then is "very"?
        Quote: sibiryouk
        The armament is also standard for such cruisers in 12 pieces of 152mm and 75mm.

        In fact, such ships are not particularly important. Where the range is more important. And here Varyag has 5700 nautical miles. Chic rate. Only the Raiders had more, but they almost doubled.
    5. AK64
      AK64 13 February 2016 18: 37
      0
      At a time when the next head of the next admiral (there is no sense in giving a surname, they were all about the same; except Admiral Witgeft, of course) decided to send the only large cruiser fighter in the RIF to Chemulpo for the role of a hospital

      Alekseev, with all the forces of the Japanese, administered the right; he wanted to be the winner of the Japanese. Most likely for this, the Varangian put it in Chemulpo - as a "cheese". Well, around Alekseev there were generally "strange" officers. Somehow Alekseev did not tolerate proactive commanders (according to Semyonov, whom he just "did not tolerate"), but Rudnev came to court.
    6. 24hours
      24hours 14 February 2016 19: 25
      -1
      To be continued. Beginning February 13, 10:59
      More than once I had to read the opinion that the Varangian was appointed as a hospital patient in Chemulpo specifically because of his driving characteristics. Like, he will slip past the Japanese, and then they will not catch up with him. This version does not stand up to criticism. Then it would be more logical to appoint Askold there. Nevertheless, he, unlike the Varyag, was created for artillery combat (a large reconnaissance cruiser, that is, a small wolfhound, 11,9% armor weight; Varyag, a large trade fighter cruiser, only 9,1%). Moreover, at such a distance from Port Arthur, Askold’s “peculiarity” (vparitati) would not have had any effect on him, a shorter range of action (in fact, he was a close reconnaissance cruiser, although they were buying as if they were distant). And absolutely there was no need for a huge range of action of the Varangian (specificity of a fighter cruiser). Moreover, at the beginning of 1904. Askold's residual speed was even slightly higher than that of the Varangian (approximately 1/3 knots), because Askold was younger.
      As can be clearly seen, the version of "overtake and run away" is completely unsound.
      Now it’s pointless to discuss it, they sent and sent. It would be necessary to discuss another question, what Rudnev could have done in that situation.
      First of all, we must try to understand what happened on February 8th. And then the following important events occurred:
      1.Japanese ships entered the bay and in violation of the conditions of neutrality began to land troops. According to the post-war data (they can easily be “clarified”) it is known that in this case Rudnev had an order not to intervene.
      2.According to the same dubious data, Rudnev allegedly had the order Chemulpo not to leave without a special order.
      It would seem that in this case everything is in order. He did everything right on February 8th. But there are a couple more important details.
      1. By the time of the Japanese landing, Rudnev had no connection with the command for a couple of days. Given the fact that he was not warming the bone at the spa, this fact should have alerted him. He alerted him, so he sent a Korean for orders to Port Arthur.
      2. A Korean at the exit from Chemulpo, even before entering the bay of Japanese transports with a landing, was attacked by Japanese ships. Those. there was open aggression.
      3. The main forces of the convoy were not included in the bay, i.e. didn’t cover the landing, but guard someone’s exit from the bay? Whose? Judging by the Korean, the output of Russian ships.
      And here, it would seem, everything is clear. But it is now. And then Rudnev could also be understood. Start hostilities in the face of uncertainty, what if the assumption of a war is wrong? In addition, the forces were far from equal.
      Asama, in the case of a normal battle, he would simply break the Varangian, like a Tuzik heating pad. “Per second,” as they say. Do not forget that Asama is an armored wolfhound. Those. an armadillo specially built to counteract enemy fighter cruisers (the weight of the armor was more than 20%). And not some armored deck trifles, reconnaissance cruisers built for this (even with the most powerful of them, armored reconnaissance cruisers, armor weight rarely reached 19%, with much less powerful artillery). And to counter any trade fighter cruisers, including the largest of them, armored raiders.
      To be continued ...
      1. 24hours
        24hours 15 February 2016 14: 11
        0
        To be continued. The beginning of February 14, 19:25.
        By the way, to counter modern armored raiders, and this was finally confirmed already in the course of the war, these same Asam-Iwati did not fit very well. Due to the diphtheria of their HA guns. But the Japanese did not have to strain on this subject either, the Russian fleet did not bother itself by raiding and cruising during that war. And the Japanese did not bother. Although a fair amount of ships suitable for this, including the Varangian (for obvious reasons, this was only “theoretically competent arrangement of forces and means”), he had for this. Including Retvizan, an EDB raider unique to those times.
        In general, there is a firm suspicion that Russia was preparing (and it was clearly preparing for this) one, quite talented and shrewd person (possibly a team of like-minded people), and the war itself was fought by completely different people. Which did not even guess about the plans of the first and real TTX ships.
        The important thing here is that with the competent alignment of Russian forces at sea and an energetic command, all Japanese efforts to cover up their communications would have gone to dust. And these efforts were colossal, the Japanese fleet included 6 full-time battleships-defenders of trade, and also adapted 2 “battleships for the poor” for these purposes. The last two are the Garibaldians, ersatz substitutes for battleships for squadrons of wealthy but ambitious countries. For the linear forces of normal fleets, due to their cheap inferiority, such ships were not suitable at all. By the way, they were much cheaper than normal battleships-defenders of trade, but they were smaller than them. In the role of armored defenders, the Garibaldians were completely “not sewn in a mare’s tail,” but they cost the Japanese quite inexpensively, although they were not particularly useful. And it should be added that ships of this class (armadillos-defenders of trade) were not part of the RIF. Generally. And that was the right decision. However, the Japanese also did not have armored raiders. And where would they carry out their raids in that war? Russia is a land country.
        Asama (and Tokiva) among this Japanese gang of “defenders” (including the pseudo-defenders of the Garibaldians) were the oldest and weakest ships. Nevertheless, when meeting with modern armored raiders, it was they who, by virtue of their TTX, would rightfully be the attacking side. True, with small (near-zero) chances of complete success. Asam's raider could pinch, but he could drown him, only if junk like Rurik was caught. Which is as if real and even armored. But actually old and closer to semi-armored. Fortunately, shortly before the REEF, the RIF significantly “strengthened”, because all semi-armored ships were elevated to the rank of armored on paper. And the half-armored were abolished.
        As for Rurik, in large fleets such raiders-retirees usually engaged in long-range reconnaissance with squadrons. Or served as floating batteries if the Navy was thinner. But no one released them into independent raiding anymore. They did not let him out in the RIF. But in the Jessen Strait of Korea, instead of appointing a rather good armored Thunderbolt (closing) as a whipping boy, the ancient Rurik put him there. The result is known to you.
        As a separate glaring disgrace, it should be noted that during the evacuation from the ship, which had been on board for 22 minutes before the flooding (i.e. there were no doubts about its future fate), as many as 178 people drowned from the crew of 763 people. 23%, almost a quarter. This despite the fact that during the battle, 26 people died from the “terrible murderous artillery fire of the enemy, who mowed everyone on the upper deck” (as they usually say in Murzilki). However, among those who drowned from Rurik there could be a certain number of wounded, who subsequently would still have died from wounds anyway.
        To be continued ...
  17. Predator
    Predator 13 February 2016 10: 59
    +3
    Quote: Pig
    "Why didn't he put to shame the St. Andrew's flag? ..." "
    Rudnev, incidentally, had a specific order - to save the cruiser - which he did NOT fulfill and the ship which he commanded was captured by the enemy and served in the enemy fleet

    Everyone has known for a long time that even before the landing, the Japanese captured the telegraph with a special detachment, Rudnev learned about the beginning of hostilities from the ultimatum to Uriu, the TF command did not know about the fate of the Varyag even after the battle and only learned from the newspapers. Let's admit (which is not real) that there was an order, then how could Rudnev carry it out ?! Cruisers do not fly, and there is no other way. This is about how to fulfill Pavlov's order given to the 6th division of the division - by the end of 22.06.1941/5/750 occupy g . Brest (when XNUMX people remained from the division by XNUMX o'clock in the morning ....).
  18. KBR109
    KBR109 13 February 2016 11: 08
    +2
    Quote: Pig
    "Why didn't he put to shame the St. Andrew's flag? ..." "
    Rudnev, incidentally, had a specific order - to save the cruiser - which he did NOT fulfill and the ship which he commanded was captured by the enemy and served in the enemy fleet
    The ship was not captured. It was flooded. Yes - raised AFTER THE WAR and put into operation by the Japanese in mid-1907. Where did you learn to distort facts like that? "Specific order to rescue the ship" in the studio! Otherwise you are empty ... words. negative
  19. Miner
    Miner 13 February 2016 11: 38
    0
    Quote: KBR109
    Quote: Pig
    "Why didn't he put to shame the St. Andrew's flag? ..." "
    Rudnev, incidentally, had a specific order - to save the cruiser - which he did NOT fulfill and the ship which he commanded was captured by the enemy and served in the enemy fleet
    The ship was not captured. He was flooded.


    Who or what prevented Rudnev from flooding the Varangian at a greater depth?

    Indeed, instead of flooding the cruiser, he only bothered to sink it slightly - the ship did not even hide under water!


    Explain, please, what, in your opinion, is Rudnev's plan for such an absurd "flooding"?


    PS
    If you can calmly and without unnecessary emotions.
    1. Andy
      Andy 13 February 2016 11: 54
      +2
      Rudnev is sometimes reproached for not using the neutrality of the port or for the flooding of the Varangian at insufficient depth. Apart from the complexity of the fairway and shallow water, Rudnev could have assumed the rise of the Varangian after the war. Or would he write in reproach the lack of the gift of a predictor of the future? TE could have prevented the Japanese from raising the cruiser, but it turned out differently
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 13 February 2016 12: 46
      0
      Read the monograph by R.M. Melnikov-Cruiser VARYAG. And if, briefly, the Commanders of foreign hospitals persuaded Rudnev not to blow up the cruiser so as not to cause damage to other ships on the Chemulpo raid, there were still a lot of ammunition on the cruiser!
      1. 24hours
        24hours 15 February 2016 22: 04
        0
        Quote: sibiryouk
        Read the monograph by R.M. Melnikov-Cruiser VARYAG. And if, briefly, the Commanders of foreign hospitals persuaded Rudnev not to blow up the cruiser so as not to cause damage to other ships on the Chemulpo raid, there were still a lot of ammunition on the cruiser!

        I would advise you not to read Melnikov at all. And to understand the absurdity of his assumptions, open the Google map, find Chemulpo Bay (called Incheon) and be surprised at its size.
    4. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 21: 29
      +1
      Quote: Miner
      Explain, please, what, in your opinion, is Rudnev's plan for such an absurd "flooding"?

      Rudnev disabled the ship? Brought out. Since February 1904, the Japanese have been hovering over it, they could only raise it after the war, put it into operation - generally in 1907.
      It would only make sense to mutilate a ship only if it EXACTLY knew that Russia would lose the war and that Chemulpo would be within Japanese control after the war. How did Rudnev know this? And so - having sunk a ship in the port, which was supposed to remain neutral after the war, one could get it back.
  20. ICT
    ICT 13 February 2016 11: 48
    0
    Quote: Miner
    Explain, please, what, in your opinion, is Rudnev's plan for such an absurd "flooding"?


    Well, somehow the thought was expressed like "we will defeat the Japs and raise ourselves." so that the "fist battle" would not start
    1. ICT
      ICT 13 February 2016 11: 52
      +1







      .........................
  21. sevtrash
    sevtrash 13 February 2016 12: 02
    +1
    Of course, yes, the heroes went to the enemy, despite his complete superiority. But they were not the only ones. In this sense, what does Borodino, Alexander 3, Suvorov, Eagle look like in Tsushima? Or Scharnhorst and Gneisenau at the Falklands?
    Well, there are some cons and the sun does.
    "According to a number of authors (in particular, V. D. Dotsenko, as well as Major General A. I. Sorokin) [85] [88], the commander of the Varyag made a number of serious mistakes:
    was not used to break through the night before the fight;
    going on a breakthrough, the "Varangian" tied himself to a slow-moving "Korean", not using his advantage in speed (this mistake was also noted by the naval historian and theoretician V. A. Belli [89]);
    after the battle, “Varyag” was not blown up, but flooded in shallow water, which allowed the Japanese to lift it and put it into operation.
    Rudnev’s decision to return to Chemulpo instead of continuing the battle [89], as well as the inefficient use of artillery by Russian ships, is causing criticism, as a result of which Japanese ships did not suffer any damage [85].
    The unprecedented awarding of the highest military awards to all ship crew members was met with controversy among the officers. It was clear to everyone that if some determination was required from the ship's commander in order to meet an enemy superior in strength, then on the part of the rest of the ranks one presence on the ship (perhaps involuntary) in itself was not yet a merit worthy of being awarded the highest military order ... Discontent among the officers became even stronger when it later became clear that in the indicated battle the crew of the Varyag did not accomplish any feat, and there were almost no losses on the Koreyets. "
    1. ICT
      ICT 13 February 2016 12: 16
      +1
      that's nice wink opened

      The Varyag team had no choice but to leave the cruiser. At the last moment they remembered the dog whining on board the dog Kiryushka. The dog, however, refused to jump into the boat, and led the rescue party to the infirmary, where under the mountain of rags they found the seriously wounded driver Sergey Krylov. By the way, S. Krylov, among other surviving sailors from the Varyag, was awarded the medal “For Courage” in 1954.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 February 2016 12: 32
      +1
      Quote: sevtrash
      was not used to break through the night before the fight

      And could not be used. a pair of Japanese destroyers on the fairway - and the Varangian died.
      Quote: sevtrash
      going for a breakthrough, "Varangian" tied himself to a slow-moving "Korean

      The Varangian was not fleeting.
      Quote: sevtrash
      after the battle, the "Varangian" was not blown up, but flooded in shallow water, which allowed the Japanese to pick it up and put it into operation

      If Russia won, the cruiser would be saved for Russia
      Quote: sevtrash
      as well as the inefficient use of artillery by Russian ships, as a result of which Japanese ships did not suffer any damage

      At the same time, forgetting to mention that right before the departure of the first Pacific demobilization to the sailors in Chemulpo, more than 1% of the Varyag’s commandants (from old-timers, esessno) returned to Russia. But if the 50st TOE was able to continue training and teach young-green, the in-patient service did not allow the cruiser to conduct intensive combat training.
      Quote: sevtrash
      Unprecedented rewarding with the highest military awards of all crew members of ships was ambiguously met among the officers

      The question is: how did this ambiguity become known? What documents?
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 13 February 2016 12: 59
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The question is: how did this ambiguity become known? What documents?

        Martynov E. I. From the sad experience of the Russo-Japanese War. - St. Petersburg: Military printing house (in the building of the General Staff Building), 1906. - S. 129-130.
        Chapter 9. Awards.
        "... However, they also managed to discredit the St. George Cross. At the very beginning of the war, under the first impression of the" feat "of" Varyag "and" Koreyets ", all officers, doctors and mechanics who were on them were awarded, by special order of the Highest, in addition to the thought, George crosses.
        Such a massive reward in connection with the unheard-of honors rendered to the crews of these ships in Russia made a very unfavorable impression on the army. It was clear to everyone that if the commander of the ship needed some determination to meet the superior enemy, then from the rest of the ranks the mere presence on the ship (maybe involuntary) did not in itself constitute a merit worthy of being awarded the highest military order .
        Discontent among the officers became even stronger when it later became clear that in the indicated battle the crew of the Varyag did not accomplish any feat, and that there were almost no losses on the Koreyets.
        The same haste was shown in relation to the garrison of Port Arthur. Not knowing the circumstances of the case, they hurried to create new knights of St. George by telegraph from St. Petersburg, and after the fall of the fortress it was discovered that some of the latter, who were promoted to "heroes" too early, had not even fulfilled their usual military duty ... "
      2. sevtrash
        sevtrash 13 February 2016 13: 18
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The Varangian was not fleeting.

        Hint that Rudnev considered speed not higher than 14 knots? Does the cruiser, which in the tests six months earlier gave the same as in the initial tests 24 knots?
        Retvizan had no problems - did the Varangian have?
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        If Russia won, the cruiser would be saved for Russia

        Yes Yes. In this case, the cruiser just had to turn in. If Russia won, then there was no need to raise it. Cars, therefore, probably did not blow up. Although they should have, because of which Rudnev was afraid to go on trial.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        the inpatient service did not allow the cruiser to conduct intensive combat training.

        Didn’t let me maintain the combat capability of the ship?
        "... so, during training firing on the shield on December 16, 1903, out of 145 shells fired by" Varyag ", only three hit the target ...".
        This is a month before the battle.
      3. 24hours
        24hours 13 February 2016 14: 10
        -1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The Varangian was not fleeting.

        This is nothing more than your fabrications. And inetovskie tales.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        If Russia won, the cruiser would be saved for Russia

        It’s not up to the commander to guess the coffee grounds. For him there is a charter, and it must be implemented.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But if the 1st TOE was able to continue training and teach young-green, the in-patient service did not allow the cruiser to conduct intensive combat training.

        No, but did the magnitude of the land of the Varangian not interfere? And the rotation? Why not read on the internet.
      4. The comment was deleted.
    3. Predator
      Predator 13 February 2016 12: 55
      0
      Well, why start all over again ?! Refer to the TsUSIMA website, there ALL the possible actions of the Varyag are investigated by the officers of the Navy almost every minute and in different situations, with and without the Koreyets, taking into account the fairway, time of day and conclusion unequivocally, there is no CHANCE for a breakthrough.
      In addition, read the research published in the book "Cruiser" Varyag ", you will learn a lot, including about the state of the cruiser itself before the battle.
      You can, in principle, think for yourself how on a narrow, winding and shallow waterway, he could go at full speed ?! But the Japanese were on a "long" wave and were not limited in maneuver.
      And if this is not a feat, then what is a feat ?!
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 13 February 2016 14: 19
        +1
        Quote: Predator
        Well, why start all over again ?!

        Well, why then the publication of the article? Applaud, admire the author? But to analyze, talk, what is impossible, forbidden, impossible?
        Yes, people fulfilled their duty, went to a deliberately stronger enemy, heroism is recognized at the state level from the Russian Empire and wider and further. So - is the topic closed for discussion?
  22. KBR109
    KBR109 13 February 2016 12: 14
    0
    Experts may personally have complaints about Rudnev. What are the claims against officers and sailors ??? Again: the ship was not surrendered to the enemy. Raised and restored after 2 years after the end of the war. Questions? What is not a symbol of valor and heroism ?!
  23. King, just king
    King, just king 13 February 2016 12: 21
    +1
    The topic is already so washed out that, in my humble opinion, it is time to introduce a filter on the forum by topics: "Russian aircraft carrier", "Varyag", "Armata", "Serdyukov" and many others.

    I can’t resist scribbling ... Everything can be forgiven and understood, but the departure of the Varyag to Japan under his cars after lifting is a complete total paragraph!
    1. ICT
      ICT 13 February 2016 12: 33
      0
      Quote: King, just king
      but the departure of the "Varyag" to Japan under their cars after the ascent is a complete total paragraph!



      And the cost of building the "Varyag" at that time amounted to an astronomical amount - 2 million 138 thousand dollars.

      Rescue operations were started as early as February 20 of the 1904 year. By October 7 of next year, the climb was completed, and at the end of 1905 of the year, the cruiser moved under its own power to Sasebo. The cost of the work was about a million yen (approximately half a million dollars at the then exchange rate). The money is huge, but to increase its prestige, the Land of the Rising Sun never spared money.


      “I'll tell you frankly, we were afraid that we would be brought to justice in Russia,” Rudnev recalled. - Still - the point of the Maritime Charter has been violated, requiring the complete destruction of warships before being captured by the enemy. And we “Varyag" only flooded.

      But fears were in vain. Moreover, awards fell down to everyone as from a cornucopia. Vsevolod Rudnev himself was awarded the title of Emperor’s adjutant wing. However, the meritorious Order of St. George did not receive. Oddly enough, in the Admiralty caperang was considered "not entirely trustworthy."

      So the first monarch who granted the award to Rudnev was the Turkish sultan Abdul-Hamid II. In addition to the Ottoman Order of the second degree, he also received a box of the best local cigars.

  24. unknown
    unknown 13 February 2016 12: 51
    +3
    There are peacetime commanders, and there are military commanders.
    Rudnev came to Varyag from the position of the head of the port. Positions are not small and responsible.
    Assignment to a warship of 1st rank-increase. Suffice it to recall that Essen began on the cruiser 2 ranks.
    Rudnev ruined the service on the Varyag. The artillery fire failed. The CMU was disgustingly exploited, hence the great loss of speed. By the way, there were no such problems on "Retvizan" with similar boilers.
    Enough has been written about the fight. About the balance of forces, too. About the fact that the Varyag had chances with another commander, too.
    I just want to remind you that the traditional derogatory attitude towards the cruisers of the 6000 projects and the praise of the Japanese armored cruisers does not have any real ground.
    In that war, you can find examples of successful and unsuccessful actions on both sides. Moreover, due to the technical characteristics, originally laid down in the project and obtained at the exit.
    The armored cruisers of the 6000-project had high speed and great fire performance. This was convincingly proved by "Askold", during the battle in the Yellow Sea, successively breaking through two armored cruisers. Despite the fact that it lacked two main caliber guns removed for the land front.
    Asama-class cruisers were better armored. And they had four heavier guns. And that's all ... Further, some disadvantages. Unsuccessful turrets of the main caliber, an unfortunate location of the cellars, an overly heavy projectile for the Japanese (after WWII they switched to 140mm), powder charges, which led to severe burnout of the barrels, reduced the rate of fire. The lightweight vehicles (how not to remember the Italians) led to the fact that the real speed was from 17 to 15 knots (modern battleships have from 17,5 to 19 knots). An unsuccessful project of an undercruiser-under-armored carrier, by chance and myth-making, erected on the pedestal of history.
    The Japanese themselves did not begin to repeat the unsuccessful project. We increased the displacement, strengthened the main caliber, pulled up speed ... in general, we got the ideal cruiser RYAV. But after it ends.
    And after analyzing the actions of cruisers in the war, they took the characteristics of domestic cruisers as the basis for post-war (PMV) projects.
    1. 24hours
      24hours 13 February 2016 17: 49
      -1
      Quote: ignoto
      By the way, there were no such problems on "Retvizan" with similar boilers.

      And on Tsushima, which caught up with "the best walker of all times and peoples" Novik. "Nowhere useless boilers" did not prevent him from doing this.
      Quote: ignoto
      I just want to remind you that the traditional derogatory attitude towards the cruisers of the 6000 projects and the praise of the Japanese armored cruisers does not have any real ground.

      Japanese armored combat ships were generally not far from a slop state. Only one choice of HA what it costs. Because of this, as many as 2 VOK ships out of 3 returned home.
      All RIF cruisers purchased abroad were ships of various types. For study and further possible cloning. The exception is Askold, whose purchase from the very beginning was considered erroneous. Cloned, as they could, of course, only Novik and Bogatyr. Svetlana was also slightly scaled in the Pallas trio.
      Quote: ignoto
      This was convincingly proved by "Askold", during the battle in the Yellow Sea, successively breaking through two armored cruisers

      This only proved that the Japanese did not shoot well. One 203-mm "splash" would be enough for this "battleship". For him, the right option would be not to break through, to leave, bypassing in an arc. In general, it was a strange ship, very specific. It was like Novik, only big and heavily protected and armed. Obviously, he would have done better with Novik's tasks. But it also cost like 2 Novik. Of course, with his performance characteristics, he could only break through for internment. Which is what happened, he did not go further than Shanghai, he simply could not according to the performance characteristics. Near large reconnaissance cruiser.
      Quote: ignoto
      Further, some disadvantages.

      To begin with, we recall that the Japanese had as many as 4 types of such ships. And if you count the Garibaldians, whom they adapted for the same purposes, then 5. And they were all different. But the main drawback they have in common is the 203 mm bulbs of the Civil Code (except for the Garibaldians). Yes, and the Garibaldians 2x1x254 mm would not hurt. For uniformity.
      Quote: ignoto
      led to the fact that the real speed ranged from 17 to 15 knots

      You just make me laugh. Nissin tested 20,05 knots, Kassuga 20,15 knots. Iwate 22,3 evil, Izumi 21,74 knots. Yes, and the VOK, which in the Korea Strait briskly dumped at a speed of 17,5 knots, the Japanese "slugs" quickly caught up and even overtook his head. So it's mostly rumors.
      Quote: ignoto
      We increased the displacement, strengthened the main caliber, pulled up speed ... in general, we got the ideal cruiser RYAV. But after it ends.

      Do not exaggerate. The ideal cruiser In addition, having understood everything correctly, they increased the GK not by a step, but by 2, to 305 mm. Thus, recognizing that the 203-mm main gun in the REV was a mistake.
    2. Dart2027
      Dart2027 13 February 2016 20: 56
      0
      Quote: ignoto
      I just want to remind you that the traditional derogatory attitude towards the cruisers of the 6000 projects and the praise of the Japanese armored cruisers does not have any real ground.

      The point is not pejorativeness, but in different classes of ships. Which is better heavy tank or light? It depends on what. Here is the same principle.
  25. King, just king
    King, just king 13 February 2016 14: 35
    +1
    Quote: sevtrash
    Of course, yes, the heroes went to the enemy, despite his complete superiority. But they were not the only ones. In this sense, what does Borodino, Alexander 3, Suvorov, Eagle look like in Tsushima? Or Scharnhorst and Gneisenau at the Falklands?
    Well, there are some cons and the sun does.


    2 TE was in no way weaker than the Japanese fleet. Total bad luck, and speed - that's all the reasons. The fact that "speed" was proved by the maneuvers of the British Navy, it seems, 2-3 years before.
    And Spee, what was the choice? Not to accept the battle - all the same, I wouldn’t leave. So at least they died heroically.
    1. sevtrash
      sevtrash 13 February 2016 15: 35
      +1
      Quote: King, just king
      Total bad luck and speed are all reasons.

      Rather - total unpreparedness, at different levels.
      Quote: King, just king
      And Spee, what was the choice? Not to accept the battle - all the same, I wouldn’t leave. So at least they died heroically.

      Yes, what are we talking about. There are many examples of heroic behavior in history. The picture of the death of Alexander 3 under Tsushima is amazing, although almost nothing is known about her. But they fought, tried to survive, all died. Borodino - survived alone.
      There is still a question - what was done by the commander and team and what could be done?
      The level of combat readiness of the Varangian is not the best, to say the least. Are shipbuilders to blame?
  26. Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 13 February 2016 16: 46
    0
    What right do you, rear-wheel-feed moms, liberals under the Dutch and German flag have the right to talk about and great water about Russian great history here and pour it on your vile bile ???
  27. art337150
    art337150 13 February 2016 19: 43
    +4
    Dear website visitors, I would like to draw your attention to the "pretzel" under the nickname "24hours DE.
    On the face of an elementary "worker", most likely paid for by an NGO, working as an Enemy of Russia, seeking to inflict damage on the very consciousness of Russians.
    Behind the discussion of some drawn details, with a negative assessment, there is a desire to introduce confusion and doubt into the self-identification of Russians. Definitions are absurd, but he draws you into a discussion, with the aim of sowing even a small grain of doubt in the greatness of the Russian nation. Please note that his flags change like footcloths. I propose not to read and enter into discussion with him. This is how to enter into.
    The role of "Varyag" is not in the results of the battle, but in the greatness and self-sacrifice of the Russian spirit.
    GLORY "VARIANA"!
  28. bbss
    bbss 14 December 2016 11: 59
    0
    I had come across the lyrics of this song in German before. I can’t sing it mentally. She does not lie on the melody.