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105
German general menu



There is much evidence of inhuman attitudes towards Soviet prisoners of war. But what about the German prisoners of war? What did they eat, what were they entitled to, how did their food supply change in the war and post-war years? And then it turned out amazing facts, confirmed by archival documents.

Interestingly, the catering standards for prisoners were developed by the staff of the Office of Prisoners of War and internees long before the outbreak of hostilities, and therefore telegrams about this were sent to the troops on the second day of the war.

The first batch of captured German prisoners came under the protection of the 229-th regiment of the NKVD already 24 June 1941 of the year.

In July, the 1941 of the year was followed by a reduction in the rate of issue of bread to 500 grams per day. Depending on the situation at the front and in the rear, ration of prisoners in the middle of 1942 was reduced to 400 grams of bread per day. It was the lowest power bar, which then never went down.

It was especially difficult to transfer and contain huge numbers of prisoners after the Battle of Stalingrad. Most could not get to the army collection points of prisoners. There was no experience of working with such a huge number of prisoners of war at the time of the NKVD troops.

After Stalingrad in the Ivanovo region, a special camp was created for generals. It was located in the village of Cherntsy (227 kilometers to Moscow), in a former old manor owned by Sofia Dedlov.



Paulus and 22 of German generals were brought here. Their daily routine was completely different than that of ordinary prisoners. Captive Italians prepared by serving white bread, butter, and boiled meat. Generals could drink beer only on holidays. The building of the former famous camp №48 is still preserved. Alley too. Preserved and dining.

The graves of the generals are carefully removed.

As the military victories and the growth of the economic opportunities of the country increased, the nutritional standards were revised upwards. April 9 The NKVD, on the basis of a decision of the USSR State Defense Committee, introduced five new catering standards for the contingent of camps: for those kept in the camps and at the NKVD reception centers; for patients with dystrophy; for general hospital patients; for generals; for officers.

But most of all, German prisoners of war received bread: the rate of their allowances increased significantly, now they were given not 400 grams of bread per day, but more than half a kilogram - 600 grams.

However, the bread was also issued in different ways, depending on the working conditions.
At the same time, the additional ration of bread has increased significantly. Those who fulfilled hard work rates up to 50 percent now received 650 grams of bread per day, from 50 to 80 percent - 850 grams and more than 100 percent - one kilogram.

The bread rates for those employed in other jobs ranged from 500 to 700 grams. For the weakened former enemy soldiers, the basic nutritional rate, increased by 25 percent, was also envisaged, including bread. The issuance of a weakened diet allowed them to be put on their feet more quickly and subsequently used to restore the country's national economy.

And the power of prisoners who worked on hard physical work, also significantly increased by more than 25 percent.



Since July, 1943, the prisoners receiving food at the basic rate, began to additionally issue 120 grams of fish per day. At the same time, the nutrition of the weak and sick was improved. Each camp was given an individual number of additional food rations, which was determined by information from the camps about the physical condition of the contingent for the previous month. In this regard, the number of rations supplied did not always correspond to the number of those who need increased nutrition by this time. However, the camp did not have the right to independently change the numbers set above.

And this, mind you, happens in a terribly hungry time for the country. And it cannot be compared with the conditions in which our prisoners of war were kept, receiving approximately 894,5 kcal per day against 2533 kcal per day (the Germans received so much under the norms).

The prisoners were also heavily treated. By the end of 1943, captured enemy troops served the 31 Hospital of the People's Commissariat of Health on the 23 200 beds. The number of places in hospitals was lower than the need, especially in the first half of 1943. Special hospitals felt an acute shortage of medical personnel. As of 1 September 1943, only 47,7 percent of Soviet doctors of the required amount worked in them. However, by the end of the year, the staffing level of medical personnel increased to 82 percent. Nekomplekt compensated for by attracting to the work of doctors from among the prisoners of war.

Successful treatment was also largely dependent on the availability of special medical equipment in hospitals, which at that time was far from being everywhere. According to archival sources, only 31 X-ray, 17 physiotherapy and 21 dental offices, 22 laboratory worked in 31 special hospital.

Since April, 1943, the medical supply of the camps was not carried out through the local bodies of the People's Commissariat of Health, which themselves experienced an acute shortage of medicines, but by the sanitary departments of military districts and the health departments of the fronts. This has improved the situation with the provision of medical facilities in the camps.

Also in 1943, the issues of the property supply of prisoners of war were streamlined. In March 1943, the NKVD of the USSR determined that the prisoners as they wear out their uniforms should be provided at the expense of the captured and specially allocated property. It was strictly forbidden to release the planned military property for their needs without the permission of the Military Supply Department of the NKVD.

For the repair of uniforms and shoes in each camp organized by the appropriate capacity workshops. As a repairing material, trophy that had become useless as well as troop property unsuitable for repairing Red Army clothes was used. The necessary tools for the workshops were made on site, and if this was not possible, they were released from the district warehouses. Bedding from the number of used relied only for hospitalized patients, were released to the camps at the rate of 10 percent of the number of contingent at the rate: one blanket, one sheet, one lower and upper pillowcase, one mattress pillowcase.

Thus, as the situation improved on the Soviet-German front, the increasing role of prisoners of war as a labor force in 1943, the supply of former enemy soldiers gradually improved. This trend was observed in the subsequent war and postwar years.

Approximately three months after the Victory, in August 1945, the first decree was issued on the release of 608 000 German prisoners of war. Private soldiers and non-commissioned officers, patients, disabled people, as well as those who agreed to live in the territory of the German Democratic Republic were sent to Germany. Also, first of all, the French and Romanians were to be released. On the road they were given a dry ration, designed for several days of stay on the road. It helped them get home.

Interestingly, when in the GDR in 1953, the percentage rates of production were raised by 10 by a percentage, part of the former prisoners of war gathered for a spontaneous strike near the building of the Central Committee of the SED. They were totally against the rules. Nearby were three cars with radio transmission towers. The furious mob overturned them - the female announcer died. From the mouths of former prisoners of war, furious cries and insults were heard against their leadership, not a single word was said against the Soviet Union.

Three years later, in the 1948 year, they began to release those who had the highest military rank. 11 German generals got their freedom.

The most curious thing happened in 1949, when it became clear that prisoners of war in the camps are not kept, and trying to peacefully settle down to work in the Soviet collective farms and state farms, can freely receive medical care in ordinary Soviet hospitals. And then the Minister of the Interior gives the order: to bring order to the prisoners, who could easily marry Soviet citizens. It turns out that such cases have been.

It is curious that, unlike the German inhabitants, who covered their noses from the stinking smell that came from the Soviet prisoners of war, Russian women showed great pity and the men too. Shared and a shag, and a piece of bread. Over the years, many German prisoners of war were able to visit the place of their imprisonment and remembered this time with a mixed feeling of gratitude. These words they expressed to everyone. But our prisoners of war, who had been in their places of detention, could only tell about the torture, mass extermination of Soviet soldiers, sometimes burned alive in the furnaces of Auschwitz and Mauthausen.

After the war, the nutritional standards were revised again: now, for an excellent work assignment, the worker could get an extra 100 grams of bread, which automatically gave the right to purchase an additional pack of fringe.

It was possible to buy at the expense of the money that was credited from 25 August 1942 to each prisoner officer and soldier according to Directive Deputy Commissar of Internal Affairs No. 353. Something I did not hear about the fact that the Germans assigned marks to our prisoners of war. But we did it: there were norms of salary, which entered the personal account of each prisoner. For example, a private received 7 rubles a month, the officer’s salary could reach 30 rubles. The highest salary - 100 rubles per month - was received by foremen and foremen, the brigades of which fulfilled the plan by 100 percent.

1950 announced the completion of repatriation.

Some of the ex-prisoners will even be able to write books about their incarceration. In particular, one of them complained about the legendary prison dish - fish soup. The smell of the soup was fishy, ​​there were heads and tails, but the flesh itself was not found. This fact depressed the former German prisoner and in his memoirs he sadly exclaims and complains about the hapless chefs who did not seek to diversify the menu.

It was interesting to read the memoirs of the composer Hans Martin, who was in the camp of the city of Atkarsk. Hans began the symphony in honor of this place on the eve of Catholic Christmas in 1944. The musical piece was performed by the choir.

Usually, the prisoners began their day with a wake-up and a decent breakfast: they were given soup and bread, and at lunch porridge cooked from millet groats or potatoes (and this, too, it turns out, was porridge). And in some camps, the prisoners tried to feed them more. This is evidenced by the results of an audit conducted in one of the camps in the Saratov region. As a result, it turned out that porridge prisoners ate two times more than they are supposed to by the standards.



It is a well-known fact that the top officials of the German army who were captured enjoyed almost all the blessings of life. This caused the legitimate indignation of the ordinary soldier, who was forced to observe in silence, for example, several officers were joyfully rolling on the ice when the river that flows within their camp froze. Then the German private will write about this outrageous case in his memoirs.

However, such conditions were not deceived by some privileged prisoners of war, and they made numerous escapes. This made the German pilot Hartmann famous, whose plane was shot down by a successful shot of Soviet anti-aircraft gunners, and the German ace landed on his parachute directly into the hands of Russian soldiers. He was captured, but the cunning Hartmann managed to pretend to be seriously wounded and thus put down the vigilance of his escorts. He was able to escape. But he was quickly found and placed in a camp located not far from the town of Shakhty of the Rostov Region. There, to the violent prisoner, they looked narrowly. But did not see. The pilot was able to raise a riot, seize the camp administration with other prisoners of war and put forward an ultimatum. One of his points concerned the increase and improvement of food, as well as the creation of a special commission to investigate violations of prisoners' rights. But in Rostov-on-Don, instead of food, a group of machine gunners was sent, which pacified the prisoners.
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  1. Aleksandr72
    Aleksandr72 10 February 2016 06: 43
    30
    The regional, city, district departments of the NKVD, the linear departments of the NKVD on transport, the heads of the camps of the GULAG of the NKVD, the commanders of individual convoy companies, battalions and regiments of the NKVD.
    Orientation
    UPVI NKVD USSR
    №25 / 6519
    29 June 1941.
    I declare for leadership and rigorous execution, established by the directive of the NPO of the USSR No. VEO / 133 of June 26, 41, daily food standards for German prisoners of war held in places of deprivation of liberty under the auspices of the NKVD and along the line.
    Rye bread 600g.
    Flour 85% grind 20g.
    Different grits 90gr.
    Pasta 10g.
    Meat 40g.
    Fish (including herring) 120g.
    Vegetable oil 20g.
    Sugar 20g.
    Surrogate tea 1 1/2 gr.
    Potatoes and vegetables 600g.
    Tomato puree 6 gr.
    Red or black pepper 0,13 gr
    Bay leaf 0,2g.
    Salt 20g.
    Shag 5 packs 50g. (per month)
    Matches 5 boxes (per month)
    Laundry soap 200gr. (per month)
    To soldiers and officers of the German army who surrendered voluntarily, the rate of delivery of bread should be increased by 100g. and sugar on 10g per day.
    Allow the replacement of meat with canned meat 29g. or bacon-fat 40g., fish canned fish 90gr.
    1. Attach prisoner of war camps for food supply to the nearest food depots, regardless of departmental affiliation.
    2. For the delivery of prisoners of war to the camps, to allocate the required number of motor transport vehicles through the local regional, district executive committees.
    Head of the UPVI of the NKVD of the USSR (signature)

    Total 2533 kilocalories per day. Men aged 18-40 years (and this is just the age range of German soldiers) who are not engaged in physical labor per day should receive about 2800 kilocalories (according to the standard of nutrition 76g of the Soviet Academy of Medical Sciences).
    The Soviet ration of prisoners of war, of course, does not reach this norm, but ensures a tolerable existence. Of course, you won’t be particularly full, but dystrophy does not threaten.
    Details here - Source - http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/paeknem-plen.shtml
    Of course, subsequently, dietary norms changed, both in the direction of decreasing and increasing. and surely in practice these norms were not always and not always respected. But we should not forget that the USSR was waging a difficult war, its own people often went hungry, and there was no time for observing the nutritional standards of prisoners of war.
    I have the honor.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 10 February 2016 09: 21
      +2
      Yes, in general, I’ll now pay for such Rostov journalism, by the way the Stalingrad’s largest
      of almost 300 thousand left 6tys. - and to hell with them


      As established, the main causes of death are:

      1. Romanian and Italian prisoners of war from 6 — 7 to 10 days before their surrender did not receive food due to the fact that all the food coming to the front went first to the German units.

      2. When capturing our units, the prisoners of war are driven on foot along the 200 – 300 km to the railway, while their supply with the rear units of the Red Army is not organized and often along the way of the prisoners of war along the way, 2 – 3 do not feed them for days.

      3. The concentration points of prisoners of war, as well as the reception centers of the NKVD, should be provided with food and clothing on the route by the Red Army rear headquarters. In practice, this is not done, and in some cases, when loading trains, prisoners of war are given out flour instead of bread, and there are no dishes.

      4. The organs of military communications of the Red Army submit wagons for sending prisoners of war that are not equipped with bunks and stoves, and 50 – 60 people are loaded into each wagon.

      In addition, a significant number of prisoners of war do not have warm clothes, and the trophy equipment of the rear services service and armies is not isolated for these purposes, despite the instructions of Comrade. Khruleva on these issues ...

      . "No. 0012 of January 1943

      The practice of organizing the direction and maintenance of prisoners of war at the front and on the way to the rear camps establishes a number of serious shortcomings:

      1. Prisoners of war long delayed in the units of the Red Army. From the moment of captivity to the arrival at the loading points, prisoners of war walk on 200 – 300 kilometers and receive almost no food, as a result of which they arrive sharply exhausted and sick.

      2. A significant part of prisoners of war, not having their own warm clothes, despite my instructions, is not provided from the captured property.

      3. Prisoners of war, going from the place of capture to the points of loading, are often guarded by small groups of fighters or not guarded at all, as a result of which they disperse in settlements.

      4. Concentration centers for prisoners of war, as well as reception centers of the NKVD, which, in accordance with the instructions of the Red Army Logistics Headquarters and the Main Directorate of Food Supply of the Red Army, should be provided with food, walkers and transport fronts, receive them in extremely limited quantities that do not meet the minimum needs. This does not allow for the provision of prisoners of war in accordance with established allowance rates.

      5. VOSO fronts untimely and in insufficient quantities allocate rolling stock to send prisoners of war to rear camps; in addition, they provide wagons that are completely not equipped for human transportation: no bunks, stoves, toilets, firewood and household inventory.

      6. Contrary to the provision of prisoners of war, approved by the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR, and the order of Glavvoensanupra, wounded and sick prisoners of war are not taken to front-line hospitals and sent to reception centers and NKVD camps with general stages.

      For these reasons, a significant number of prisoners of war are depleted and die before being sent to the rear, as well as en route.

      In order to decisively eliminate the shortcomings in securing prisoners of war and preserve them as labor, I order:


      Deputy People's Commissar of Defense, Colonel-General of the quartermaster A. Khrulev. "

      http://topwar.ru/39351-mify-velikoy-otechestvennoy-pochemu-pogibli-stalingradski
      e-plennye.html
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 10 February 2016 10: 43
        22
        Your emotions are not entirely clear, and what about some Rostov journalism. Not the pioneer camps were collecting and sending prisoners. A huge mass of our people went to the evacuation hungry, exhausted, in unheated cars, etc.
        Even that document that you quote: .....sets a number of serious defects ....., in order to decisively eliminate.....
        The Germans didn’t have anything like that. There were only flaws in sending to gas furnaces.
        1. Zoldat_A
          Zoldat_A 10 February 2016 14: 15
          +5
          Quote: bober1982
          The Germans didn’t have anything like that. There were only flaws in sending to gas furnaces.

          Interestingly, they did not hiccup, did not break diarrhea when they first saw this pipe? Did this pipe remind them nothing? I did not want to think - why are they here, and not at home with their Frau? am

          I would not be able to serve in the protection of such a camp - sooner or later I would rattle under the tribunal ...
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 10 February 2016 19: 38
            +2
            Duck he just warms his hands, which tribunal?
      2. 73bor
        73bor 10 February 2016 23: 15
        +7
        Of all Soviet prisoners, 80% did not return home, of the Germans, only 20% in my opinion, this says a lot!
  2. Good cat
    Good cat 10 February 2016 06: 45
    10
    Russian people are kind to the defeated enemy.
    1. testerman
      testerman 10 February 2016 07: 09
      16
      Or maybe in vain ......... maybe it was necessary with them how are they with us? You look and their attitude would have changed.
      1. npzh
        npzh 10 February 2016 10: 04
        0
        It was necessary as the Western Allies?

        http://topwar.ru/1452-lagerya-smerti-yejzenxauyera.html
      2. npzh
        npzh 10 February 2016 10: 04
        0
        It was necessary as the Western Allies?

        http://topwar.ru/1452-lagerya-smerti-yejzenxauyera.html
    2. corporal
      corporal 10 February 2016 07: 17
      20
      Quote: Good cat
      Russian people are kind to the defeated enemy.

      My father told how his classmates died from malnutrition in the years 45-46-47. And what, he says, was happiness when at 48 canceled cards for bread.
      It would be better for the state to treat its children kindly.
      1. RBLip
        RBLip 10 February 2016 08: 12
        +8
        Quote: Corporal
        My father told how his classmates died from malnutrition in the years 45-46-47. And what, he says, was happiness when at 48 canceled cards for bread.
        It would be better for the state to treat its children kindly.

        and we always and everywhere like that. help the whole world, it's easy. and how to make life easier for your people, et shish. otherwise it will relax by chance ....
      2. EvilLion
        EvilLion 10 February 2016 09: 03
        -1
        Can’t you see the contradictions yourself?
        1. RBLip
          RBLip 10 February 2016 10: 13
          +2
          Quote: EvilLion
          Can’t you see the contradictions yourself?

          I do not see. enlighten?
    3. vvp2412
      vvp2412 10 February 2016 11: 30
      0
      sometimes in vain! As they say - they are not looking for good from good ....
  3. Aleksandr72
    Aleksandr72 10 February 2016 06: 52
    13
    For comparison - the nutritional standards of Soviet prisoners of war (yes there were such!):
    only in August did the High Command of the Ground Forces (OKH) take the issue of rationing the nutrition of Soviet prisoners into their own hands. The OKH / Az.62f VA directive of August 6, 1941 is issued. The following standards are now binding on all Army Groups.
    Let the reader not be confused by such products issued by prisoners as cottage cheese, cheese, egg powder, marmalade. It is obvious that in the German warehouses these products were redundant, but the bread and meat were not thick. And we won’t wonder if the prisoners saw this marmalade and sugar or not.
    Product Name Prisoners not employed (grams) Prisoners not employed (grams)
    Rye bread 214 321
    Meat or sausages 14 21
    Fats (margarine) 16 19
    Groats, pasta 14 16
    Curd 7 7
    Fat-free cheese 7 7
    Egg powder 5 5
    Sugar 21 32
    Marmalade - 18
    Vegetables (cabbage, fodder beets) 161 161
    Sauerkraut 20 20
    or dried cabbage 2 2
    Potatoes and / or rutabaga 1286 1071
    Ersatz coffee or ersatz tea 4 4
    Total calories per day (kcal) 2040 2200

    During the war, these norms also changed, sharply decreasing by 1944.
    As in practice, the nutritional standards for Soviet prisoners of war were observed, we are all well aware.
    I have the honor.
    1. Grandfather Wood grouse
      Grandfather Wood grouse 6 September 2018 13: 32
      0
      Basically there was rutabaga, almost always rotten, the same quality potatoes, bread 200-400 gr. Cheese was given several times. The theft of food was terrible - everything was stolen by Germans, warders, cooks, doctors, whoever could, and the rotten was captured. When one day the Red Cross commission arrived at the camp, both meat and butter and cocoa appeared. (Stalag 18ts, Austria)
  4. ovod84
    ovod84 10 February 2016 06: 54
    +5
    Thank you for the article. I did not know much, now I have learned.
    1. Amurets
      Amurets 10 February 2016 10: 27
      +3
      Quote: ovod84
      Thank you for the article. I did not know much, now I have learned.

      Not only do we not know many things, but we forget. I read your words and remembered about Y. Klemenchenko and his book "The ship goes longer". This is how this book describes the life and life of Soviet merchant sailors interned in Germany. And they lived no better than prisoners of war. Few people know about this in our time.
  5. aszzz888
    aszzz888 10 February 2016 07: 12
    +9
    In the photo, the mutes do not seem exhausted. And compare the famous photos from the concentration camps! There is a difference?
    There is one more. Here is the answer to the question of humanity. Even in war.
  6. Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack 10 February 2016 07: 20
    +7
    Thank you for the article!!! another confirmation of our attitude - even to defeated enemies ........ and still we are barbarians for them!))))) like this .........
  7. V.ic
    V.ic 10 February 2016 07: 25
    +3
    Soviet soldiers sometimes alive burnt in the furnaces of Auschwitz and Maunhausen. Author Polina Efimova

    The information is taken from the song "Buchenwald Nabat", obviously, the author of the words is A. V. Sobolev.
    "Hundreds of thousands burned alive
    Under construction, under construction "
    http://textpesni2.ru/textpesni.php?songlyrics=15268358
    1. Colonel
      Colonel 10 February 2016 12: 57
      +2
      Quote: V.ic
      Information taken from the song

      And here is other information from the song too:
      "The spindles are excellent,
      snotty shakers,
      Germans are prisoners at a construction site,
      they changed knives for bread ... "- the author of the words V. Vysotsky
  8. inkass_98
    inkass_98 10 February 2016 07: 25
    +7
    It was especially difficult to shock and contain a huge number of prisoners

    It’s always easy to epate, but harder to stage soldier laughing ... I understand that it was a mistake, but it was so successful with regard to German prisoners. The Russians shocked the Germans with their attitude, especially after the prisoners had the right to expect after their "exploits" ...
  9. PKK
    PKK 10 February 2016 07: 39
    +9
    In anticipation of the expansion of the War, which is already underway, a reminder to us that it is useless to be captured is rotted there.
  10. Amurets
    Amurets 10 February 2016 07: 45
    +9
    I don’t understand why the French were released from captivity in the first place? The Legion of French Volunteers was equipped only with volunteers and no one drove him to the Eastern Front. The 638th Infantry Regiment of the LFD, in Belarus, was especially distinguished. Hitler’s service. This is not an advertisement. This is a story
  11. parusnik
    parusnik 10 February 2016 07: 57
    +5
    Thank you, Polina ... the Germans, they didn't fatten in our camps, but they ate tolerably ... they didn't die of hunger, the majority returned home ... unlike many of our compatriots ... The Germans had such death camps where they didn't poison burned, did not set up experiments, but simply starved to death ... to the laughter of "supermen" .. Only faintly, they remember this ..
    1. Loreal
      Loreal 10 February 2016 08: 10
      +1
      The last paragraph is not comme il faut.
  12. semirek
    semirek 10 February 2016 08: 04
    -9
    Thanks to the author for the article. Of course, the country's leadership understood that it was necessary to preserve the country's international image in terms of a humane attitude towards German prisoners of war, and prisoners in general. But there was no excuse for Stalin for abandoning his fellow citizens who were in German concentration camps in inhuman conditions. in the history of the country, a soldier who was captured was not called a traitor, on the contrary, he was a martyr. Russian tsars cared for captured Russian soldiers, even in WWII, the empress personally assisted prisoners of war through diplomatic channels, even in Soviet times, on Khalkhin Gol, Soviet soldiers captured by the Japanese, after the defeat of the latter, state awards were awarded.
    Putting forward the thesis: he surrendered, which means an enemy of the people, Stalin transferred responsibility for his mistakes of the pre-war era and the outbreak of war to hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers who were captured as a result of the defeat of our armies, moreover, their relatives in the rear, deprived, suffered all the benefits.
    You can get captured in a different way - give up, but you can get because of confusion during the fighting, you can lose consciousness from shell shock, and wake up already in captivity.
    The Germans were always distinguished by cruelty to a Russian man, my grandfather in WWI, was captured, fled several times from a concentration camp to the Netherlands, the Germans caught and hung upside down until you lose consciousness.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 10 February 2016 10: 57
      +2
      Quote: semirek
      .Never in the history of the country, a soldier who was captured was not called a traitor, on the contrary he was a martyr

      General Sievers considers it necessary to take special measures to reduce the number of surrenders. Among these measures, General Sievers is planning the publication of a lawful order stating that prisoners, with the exception of seriously wounded, are deprived of the right to return back after the war.
      One could declare to everyone that such prisoners at the end of the war would be put on trial as having committed an escape, which should have been established by law. General Sievers, for his part, takes measures to ensure that the surrendering part is destroyed by his fire in a merciless manner, but this measure can be valid only during the day and not even under all conditions

      (c) Commander of the NWF gene. Ruzsky. 1914
    3. parusnik
      parusnik 10 February 2016 11: 02
      15
      semirek :But there is no justification for Stalin for abandoning his fellow citizens who were in German concentration camps in inhuman conditions. ... In fact, compliance with the convention is not based on the principle of reciprocity: "If, in the event of war, one of the belligerent parties turns out to be not a party to the convention, nevertheless, the provisions of that convention remain binding on all belligerents who have signed the convention." Section VIII, section 1, article 82 of the text of the Convention. The last provision speaks of the F.F. Martens clause, suggesting that even in the period of the most severe violence there should be legal principles.The Soviet government did not consider it necessary to sign the Convention because it joined the Hague Conference, which contains all the most important provisions as the Geneva ...
      And it turns out that you have no excuses for Stalin, but for Hitler ...
      1. semirek
        semirek 10 February 2016 20: 01
        -3
        Quote: parusnik
        semirek :But there is no justification for Stalin for abandoning his fellow citizens who were in German concentration camps in inhuman conditions. ... In fact, compliance with the convention is not based on the principle of reciprocity: "If, in the event of war, one of the belligerent parties turns out to be not a party to the convention, nevertheless, the provisions of that convention remain binding on all belligerents who have signed the convention." Section VIII, section 1, article 82 of the text of the Convention. The last provision speaks of the F.F. Martens clause, suggesting that even in the period of the most severe violence there should be legal principles.The Soviet government did not consider it necessary to sign the Convention because it joined the Hague Conference, which contains all the most important provisions as the Geneva ...
        And it turns out that you have no excuses for Stalin, but for Hitler ...

        parusnik, in my opinion, you also went about some of the users who, by sneaking on VO, got away from the topic of the article. I don’t understand where I mentioned Hitler - I think you went too far, to be honest, I had a better opinion about you.
    4. Alexey T. (Oper)
      Alexey T. (Oper) 10 February 2016 20: 55
      +1
      And can you bring a document in which Stalin said or wrote something similar, from which it follows that all those captured in the USSR were declared traitors ??
      1. Russiamoy
        Russiamoy 10 February 2016 23: 06
        -1
        Not traitors, but they were punished. My husband’s grandfather was surrounded and imprisoned. I ran. Until the end of the war at the forefront. And still, after the war they were not allowed to return to Moscow, but they exiled and selected all the medals and orders. True, in the 50s they returned. But he was so offended that he did not come to take them home. So there were consequences. I never compare, I do not defend the Nazis, but I just want to be objective. What kind of thing is it just as if people were killed a little by the spread rot after the war, how much in vain
      2. semirek
        semirek 10 February 2016 23: 47
        -2
        Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
        And can you bring a document in which Stalin said or wrote something similar, from which it follows that all those captured in the USSR were declared traitors ??

        Yes, you undertake to discuss serious things, but you don’t know the elementary truths. As a kid I knew this in the 70s, there were many books and participants in the war.
        "there are no prisoners of war in the red army, there are only traitors and traitors to the homeland. The Soviet Union does not know prisoners, it only knows the dead and traitors" I. Stalin.
        And no matter how you were captured.
        From official documents: order 270.
        GKO Decree of July 16, 41.
        On June 28, a joint order of the NKGB, the NKVD and the Prosecutor General's Office of the USSR was adopted in accordance with the sov.secret stamp: "On the procedure for bringing traitors to their homeland and their family members to justice."
        Study the history of your native country. By the way, the provision on traitorous prisoners was repealed at the end of the Afghan war.
        1. quolta
          quolta 1 September 2018 06: 09
          0
          On June 28, a joint order of the NKGB, the NKVD and the Prosecutor General's Office of the USSR was adopted in accordance with the sov.secret stamp: "on the procedure for bringing traitors to their homeland and their families to justice." My grandfather in the OBD also goes missing, however, in 1978 they received an apartment (my grandmother was still alive) as the family of the deceased (I certainly did not remember exactly 5 years old) or as the widow of the deceased
  13. Doomph
    Doomph 10 February 2016 08: 15
    +6
    Mdaaa ... It is necessary all the same Eye for the Eye. And simply put, the rules set as in the besieged Leningrad.
  14. 3news
    3news 10 February 2016 09: 17
    -20 qualifying.
    Quote: Polina Efimova
    In July, the 1941 of the year was followed by a reduction in the rate of issue of bread to 500 grams per day. Depending on the situation at the front and in the rear, ration of prisoners in the middle of 1942 was reduced to 400 grams of bread per day. It was the lowest power bar, which then never went down.

    This is the Council of Deputies. To his citizens in Leningrad from November 20, 1941. for employees, dependents and children for a month, the daily food allowance was 125 grams of "bread" with only a little flour in it. And from the end of December 1941. until mid-February 1942 to 190.
    1. npzh
      npzh 10 February 2016 09: 56
      15
      This is liberalism. 125 grams was given not because of particular cruelty, but because of the lack of physical ability to provide a normal ration.
      1. 3news
        3news 10 February 2016 10: 56
        -18 qualifying.
        Quote: npzh
        and due to the lack of physical ability to provide a normal ration.

        Did you come up with this yourself? Why was there no such opportunity? What prevented the Bolsheviks from establishing a normal food supply for the city?
        1. npzh
          npzh 10 February 2016 10: 59
          10
          Apparently, you have not heard about the blockade. It happens.
          The Bolsheviks were hindered by the German and Finnish armies.
          1. 3news
            3news 10 February 2016 11: 10
            -10 qualifying.
            Quote: npzh
            The Bolsheviks were hindered by the German and Finnish armies.

            And the magnitude of the earth did not bother them? No full there was no blockade of Leningrad. All the years of the land blockade, there was a waterway supply Leningrad in Ladoga. It was not fully used to supply the city with food. There was also an air supply route. There were many options, and the result is known - more than 632 thousand people died of starvation. Think about it, this is a huge number.
            1. npzh
              npzh 10 February 2016 11: 16
              +6
              I don’t know about magnitude, maybe it interfered. The supply route along Ladoga was established only after the beginning of the land blockade. All logistics supply schemes had to be rebuilt.
              1. 3news
                3news 10 February 2016 11: 26
                -13 qualifying.
                Quote: npzh
                The supply route along Ladoga was established only after the beginning of the land blockade. All logistics supply schemes had to be rebuilt.

                What are these "schemes" so complex? Bring food to Ladoga, load it into a fishing trawler (there were several fish collective farms on Ladoga) or a barge and take it to Leningrad. Is this a complicated circuit?
                And who prevented dispersing Badayevskie warehouses around the city? After all, it is clear that this is a strategic object, they will bomb.
                But nothing was done. Until the thunder struck, the Bolsheviks did not scratch themselves. In Smolny there was enough food.
                1. Aleksandr72
                  Aleksandr72 10 February 2016 12: 21
                  16
                  3news - do you have anything to say about the blockade of Leningrad, which lasted by the way for 872 days, do you know anything or is the main thing for you the Bolsheviks kicking to kick?
                  I will not explain to you that Lake Ladoga is mostly unsuitable for regular navigation, i.e. as a way of communication - a storm, you know, in Ladoga, in their fury they are not inferior to sea ones in any way and, moreover, they have a foul character that begins suddenly. This has been noticed for a long time - it was not without reason that under Peter 1 they even began to dig a navigable canal around Ladoga, such was the oddity of a carpenter’s king! And also - in the winter of Ladoga, imagine freezing, completely.
                  In addition, let it be known to you - German aviation and artillery (where they got it) hunted literally for every pelvis going to / from Leningrad. German aces did not hesitate to stoke hospital ships and vessels with evacuated children and fishing longboats. And in winter, they also hunted trucks and sledges on the Road of Life. Had to read this:
                  "In the Museum of the Defense of Leningrad there was a box - an ordinary wooden box from under artillery shells, quite large, with dirty naked celluloid babies, some with traces of burning. A large box, and little ones. These babies were sold in Leningrad before the war. And evacuees the children brought dolls with them, which is what they became attached to, and it is not so scary to go with a doll in their hands, no matter whether in the winter in an open back of a truck along the "Road of Life", or in the summer in some ship along the not always calm Ladoga, yes and it was impossible to take a lot of things into evacuation, so the kids took with them a little baby - small, light, their own.
                  And the children were valiantly drowned by the great German aces and the good German artillerymen ... And trucks, barges, tenders and other vessels with children sank. And babies - being floating ones - emerged from dead little hands and then dangled along Ladoga, the waves tore off simple clothes from them, it decayed and then when one of the museum employees saw that these dead babies were lying on the shore, he collected their whole box. The employees thought for a long time - whether to put such a box with dead babies on display, but they decided not to put it. It was too scary to imagine how many children were drowned in Ladoga by the kind invaders ... "

                  As well as children and the wounded, the Germans drowned food in Ladoga.
                  Finns, even if Germans lagged behind in this matter, were only in view of the general backwardness in the quantity and quality of artillery and aviation.
                  And in the Badayevsky warehouses there was not so much food and they simply did not have time to disperse them, because no one expected that thanks to Voroshilov's "general genius" the Germans would break through to Leningrad so quickly.
                  I have the honor.
                  1. Colonel
                    Colonel 10 February 2016 13: 09
                    11
                    Quote: Aleksandr72
                    3news - are you anything about the blockade of Leningrad

                    Alexander, in front of whom are you throwing pearls, don't you see that this (3news) is just a regular non-human being fed up in the same feeding trough as the shopping mall "Rain", with his question about the blockade?
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. Aleksandr72
                      Aleksandr72 10 February 2016 13: 25
                      14
                      Yes I understand this. Therefore, he did not immediately answer his verbal pearls. But I can’t get past the bastard, who, using complete anonymity (no one will fill his face with it), dumps a bucket of a doctor’s head on our history, in memory of the millions of people who died during the Great War. Yes, and persists in his provocations. Fortunately, there are many more adequate ones on this Earth. Respectfully to them hi
                      I have the honor.
                      1. 3news
                        3news 10 February 2016 13: 33
                        -13 qualifying.
                        Quote: Aleksandr72
                        But I can’t get past the bastard, who, using complete anonymity (no one will fill his face with it, for example), dumps a bucket of a doctor’s head on our history, in memory of the millions of people who died during the Great War.

                        This is exactly what you are. Look at yourself in the mirror. Coming up with "objective reasons", you just dump out the tub of the DOE in memory of the innocently killed fellow citizens. To my fellow citizens.
                      2. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 10 February 2016 13: 40
                        +4
                        Do you think the capitalists would be better? An empty argument.
                    3. Nikolaevich I
                      Nikolaevich I 10 February 2016 15: 09
                      +3
                      Yes, it seems ... 3news as a child only gave out a switch to the "smart" ... he used it ...
                    4. 3news
                      3news 10 February 2016 15: 31
                      -1
                      Quote: Nikolaevich I
                      As a child, 3news only gave out a switch to the "thinker" ... he used it ...

                      We are discussing serious things. And then this clown. The country has lost 27 million. And he just had to laugh.
                    5. The comment was deleted.
                    6. Colonel
                      Colonel 10 February 2016 19: 41
                      +2
                      Quote: Nikolaevich I
                      As a child, 3news only gave out a switch to the "thinker" ... he used it ...

                      And for some reason it seems to me that this body is just one of those "cyber troops" that Uncle Sam forms. Painfully theirs accent rushing and impudent peremptory.
                  2. saturn.mmm
                    saturn.mmm 10 February 2016 22: 05
                    -1
                    Quote: Aleksandr72
                    But I can’t get past the bastard, who, using complete anonymity (no one will fill his face with it, for example), dumps a bucket of a doctor’s head on our history, in memory of the millions of people who died during the Great War.

                    3news accused the Bolsheviks of the poor organization of support for Leningrad in the first year of the war, and therefore, in his opinion, about 600 thousand citizens died of starvation, he did not mention the whole war.
                    The Bolsheviks really had a very bad organization with the organization in the first year of the war.
                    Removed 3news, now you don’t even look how much you are right and fair.
                  3. Colonel
                    Colonel 11 February 2016 19: 10
                    +2
                    Quote: saturn.mmm
                    3news accused the Bolsheviks of poor organization

                    He does not blame the Bolsheviks, he just crap. Can't you see it? Do you regret being banned?
              2. 3news
                3news 10 February 2016 13: 38
                -3
                Quote: colonel
                what is it (3news) just a regular nelyum fattened in the same feeding trough

                You look at yourself. Apparently, he did not work a single day, but he was well-fed. Do you know how to do something? Except how to rattle the keys?
                Quote: colonel
                and shopping mall "Rain", with his question about the blockade?

                I do not raise the question that it was necessary to surrender Leningrad. I raise the question of who is to blame for the fact that 600 thousand people died of starvation. And the norm for issuing ersatz bread since November 1941. to February 1942 for employees, dependents and children was 125 g per day.
            2. 3news
              3news 10 February 2016 13: 27
              -3
              Quote: Aleksandr72
              that Lake Ladoga is unsuitable for regular navigation most of the year

              Yes? Since when? And why did the "pests" build the White Sea Canal if it was impossible to use it? Ladoga, in your opinion, is of little use for navigation. You would have fantasized less, all the boats that were there were adapted to navigation on Ladoga.
              You know what the British did in 1940. evacuated Of their from France? ALL... Incl. and the river trams that ran on the Thames. Instead of talking about the "difficulties of navigation".
              Quote: Aleksandr72
              And also - in the winter of Ladoga, imagine freezing, completely.

              Awful "news". It turns out that after the establishment of people it was possible to start cars on it, this is a minus. And everyone always thought it was a plus.
              Quote: Aleksandr72
              wanted literally for every pelvis going to / from Leningrad

              The Germans would not have had enough means of suppression for all the pelvis. and gasoline. You listen less to the "passion" of the Bolsheviks. They messed up with the supply of food to Leningrad from the very beginning, and then came up with "facts".
              Quote: Aleksandr72
              German aces did not hesitate to stoke hospital ships and vessels with evacuated children and fishing longboats.

              And still bomb food warehouses. This is war, dear. Total. All sides of that war acted in exactly the same way. Therefore uh
              Tol is not an excuse.
              In addition, in 1942. magically, food supplies more or less improved. What happened? Shipyard for the production of small-tonnage ships were launched in Ladoga? Did they breed by budding? Has the climate in the Ladoga area changed? No, they just got into this problem. But before that, in the terrible winter of 1941-42, hundreds of thousands of people were killed by hunger.
              And not to be unfounded. For 600 thousand people who died of starvation in Leningrad, up to 400g. bread a day, like the Germans in bad times, had to add 275 g per day. 0,275 x 600.000: 1.000 = 165 tons of food per day additionally. A small fishing seiner, which is not called at all, usually takes on board about 100 tons of cargo. Let 80 for an even count. It was enough only 2 seiners with food per day in addition to NO ONE did not die of hunger. And these seiners were there like dogs. Because there were several fishing farms on Ladoga. And also the whole Ladoga Shipping Company. You can also count in three-ton ZIS-5 in the winter. Only an additional 55 trucks a day is obtained.
              Quote: Aleksandr72
              As well as children and the wounded, the Germans drowned food in Ladoga.

              Of course, drowned. This is war. Therefore, in addition, it was necessary to send not 2, but 3 seiners. Not 55 trucks, but 70. With a margin., But hunger was by no means allowed.
              Quote: Aleksandr72
              and simply did not have time to disperse them. no one expected

              Nice "argument". And who should have "expected"? Germans?
              1. Flanke
                Flanke 10 February 2016 16: 10
                +6
                You are talking nonsense, but I’ll debunk the enduring myth about Badayev warehouses. Leningrad is a very large city and from the moment of its foundation to this day has been supplied with wheels. There were no serious stocks at Badayevsky warehouses. Their destruction did not affect the blockade in any way.

                To say that the Bolsheviks did not hide the warehouses is the same as for our contemporary in a similar situation to say that they bombed the hay market and supposedly hunger.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  15. npzh
    npzh 10 February 2016 10: 59
    +4
    Apparently, you have not heard about the blockade. It happens.
    The Bolsheviks were hindered by the German and Finnish armies.
  16. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 10 February 2016 11: 05
    +8
    Quote: 3news
    Why was there no such opportunity? What prevented the Bolsheviks from establishing a normal food supply for the city?

    Really what?
    Maybe the Germans and the Finns, who surrounded the multi-million city and interrupted all pre-war communications with the Great Land? To supply the city there were only poorly equipped small ports (a shallow bay + a couple of light moorings) of the St. Petersburg coast of Ladoga and river barges with low seaworthiness (there were catastrophically few lake barges and tugs).

    Before the war, navigation on Ladoga went along the channels laid along the coast - going out into the "Ladoga Sea" itself, especially in the autumn season of storms, was a dangerous business. So they built river tugs and barges, and not more expensive lake tugs. And the Leningrad River Port was located on the Neva, the communication along which the Germans cut in September 1941 at the source.
    1. 3news
      3news 10 February 2016 11: 16
      -7
      Quote: Alexey RA
      interrupting all pre-war communications with the Great Land?

      And what, Ladoga was also drained?
      Quote: Alexey RA
      To supply the city there were only poorly equipped small ports (shallow bay + a couple of light moorings) of the St. Petersburg coast of Ladoga and river barges with low seaworthiness (there were catastrophically few lake barges and tugs).

      Do not fantasize. The capacities of the watercraft to supply the city with food were more than enough. Confirmation of this is the navigation of 1942. In addition, I want to remind you about the White Sea-Baltic Canal. On it to Ladoga could transfer a lot of boats from the North.
      Quote: Alexey RA
      going out to the "Ladoga Sea" itself, especially in the autumn season of storms, was a dangerous business

      Well, of course. The justifications of the Bolsheviks are always a million with a ponytail.
      Quote: Alexey RA
      So they built river tugs and barges, and not more expensive lake ones. And the Leningrad River port was on the Neva, the message on which the Germans in September 1941 cut off at the source.

      Well yes. And the earth was spinning in the wrong direction, only since 1942. began to rotate correctly.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. 3news
          3news 10 February 2016 12: 14
          -8
          Quote: npzh
          Ladoga and Onega are connected by the Svir River, traffic on which was interrupted by Finnish troops on September 6, 1941

          Have I already asked you about the earth's magnitude? He asked. Now I will ask, what prevented us from driving the “terrible Finnish army” away from this artery? They are not Germans. It means that she was not needed. This means that there were already enough floating facilities on Ladoga.
          In general, "who wants, seeks funds. Those who do not want, seeks reasons." The proverb is as follows.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 10 February 2016 12: 57
            +9
            Quote: 3news
            Now I will ask, what prevented us from driving the “terrible Finnish army” away from this artery? They are not Germans.

            It was disturbing that in the rear 7 And the Germans were advancing. And our command throughout the autumn of 1941 was forced to maneuver forces between the Finnish and German fronts, which were separated by only one and a half hundred kilometers.
            In addition, 3 enemy divisions operated on Svir: 163 German and 5 and 17 Finnish PD. Plus a reserve of 3 and 7 PD. From our side, this division was defended by 2 divisions - 67 and 314 SD + 3 brmp.

            By the way, the Finnish army so despicably described by you for a month managed to drive out Red Army units on the Karelian Isthmus right up to the KaUR line, simultaneously organizing a couple of boilers.
            1. 3news
              3news 10 February 2016 13: 48
              -5
              Quote: Alexey RA
              By the way, the Finnish army so despicably described by you for a month managed to drive out Red Army units on the Karelian Isthmus right up to the KaUR line, simultaneously organizing a couple of boilers.

              And who prepared the USSR and the Red Army for war? I AM? No, the wise leadership of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks prepared under the leadership of Dzhugashvili.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              In addition, 3 enemy divisions operated on Svir: 163 German and 5 and 17 Finnish PD. Plus a reserve of 3 and 7 PD. From our side, this division was defended by 2 divisions - 67 and 314 SD + 3 brmp.

              I don’t need to tell stories about "terrible Finns and Germans". The price of their combat effectiveness in 1941. known, it's a penny. Only the price of the Red Army's combat capability at this time is much lower than this level.
              1. alicante11
                alicante11 10 February 2016 14: 27
                +8
                I don’t need to tell stories about "terrible Finns and Germans". The price of their combat effectiveness in 1941. known, it's a penny. Only the price of the Red Army's combat capability at this time is much lower than this level.


                Hmm, the army that conquered all of Europe, drove the British almost to the Suez Canal - is the price of its combat capability a penny? Then all the other armies of the world - tenths of a penny. Detected troll.
                1. 3news
                  3news 10 February 2016 14: 38
                  -5
                  Quote: alicante11
                  conquered all of Europe, drove the British almost to the Suez Canal - is the price of its fighting ability a penny?

                  It is easy to conquer that which itself wants to submit.
                  Quote: alicante11
                  drove the British almost to the Suez Canal - is the price of its fighting capacity a penny?

                  Remind you how the "expulsion of the British almost to the Suez Canal" ended? By the defeat and capture of those who expelled.
                  Quote: alicante11
                  Then all the other armies of the world - tenths of a penny.

                  Let me remind you how it ended in 1940. Hitler's "test run" on Britain? The defeat of her Luftwaffe in the skies of Britain. Therefore, after that, he decided to move on to the "correct siege." And for this, I first decided in 1941. eliminate the threat from the east. This is how the plan was born, later called Barbarossa.
                  It was the defeat of the German Luftwaffe in the skies of Britain in 1940. turned out to be catastrophic for the USSR, because entailed an attack by the Germans in 1941.
                  Quote: alicante11
                  Detected troll.

                  Why don’t you put your signature on the avatar?
                2. Pilat2009
                  Pilat2009 10 February 2016 16: 25
                  +3
                  Quote: 3news
                  Remind you how the "expulsion of the British almost to the Suez Canal" ended? By the defeat and capture of those who expelled.

                  If you compare the forces of the Germans and the British, as well as their supply, then there is nothing surprising in the defeat of the German group.
                  It’s also not worth lowering the capabilities of the German military machine — in the First, in the Second World, the Germans managed to fight on two fronts
                3. Pilat2009
                  Pilat2009 10 February 2016 16: 25
                  0
                  Quote: 3news
                  Remind you how the "expulsion of the British almost to the Suez Canal" ended? By the defeat and capture of those who expelled.

                  If you compare the forces of the Germans and the British, as well as their supply, then there is nothing surprising in the defeat of the German group.
                  It’s also not worth lowering the capabilities of the German military machine — in the First, in the Second World, the Germans managed to fight on two fronts
              2. The comment was deleted.
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 10 February 2016 15: 53
              +4
              Quote: 3news
              And who prepared the USSR and the Red Army for war? I AM? No, the wise leadership of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks prepared under the leadership of Dzhugashvili.

              Suggest other training options. Only, chur, without aftertaste - only with the data that the leadership of the USSR had then.
              And also with the industry of the USSR of the 30s and the general level of education of the population.
              At the beginning of 1941, 60-70% of the elite BTV personnel were from 3 to 7 classes. 10-15% - less than 3 or even illiterate.
              At the beginning of the 30s, 90% of cadets had only elementary school. But these are future battalion commanders, regiment and divisional commanders of the beginning of the war.
              Quote: 3news
              There is no need to tell me stories about "terrible Finns and Germans". The price of their combat effectiveness in 1941. known, it's a penny.

              You about this "penny" tell the best army in Europe, the winner of WWI. And the BEC of Lord Gort too.
              1. Cap.Morgan
                Cap.Morgan 10 February 2016 23: 02
                -1
                For example, white and tsarist officers with World War I experience are released from prisons.
                And to appoint to command posts instead of Budenny with Voroshilov.
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 11 February 2016 10: 09
                +1
                Quote: Cap.Morgan
                For example, white and tsarist officers with World War I experience are released from prisons.

                Are you talking about the Vesna case? Most of the reserve officers suffered in this way. In addition, there were about 10000 of these officers + many of them were restored back.

                And the general low level of education of ordinary and cadet staff will not cancel this.
  17. npzh
    npzh 10 February 2016 11: 22
    +6
    Quote: 3news
    In addition, I want to remind you about the White Sea-Baltic Canal. On it to Ladoga could transfer a lot of boats from the North.

    Please continue. I haven’t laughed like that for a long time.
    "White Sea-Baltic Canal - - a channel connecting the White Sea with Lake Onega"
    Ladoga and Onega are connected by the Svir River, traffic on which was interrupted by Finnish troops on September 6, 1941
  18. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 10 February 2016 12: 40
    +7
    Quote: 3news
    Do not fantasize. The capacities of the watercraft to supply the city with food were more than enough.

    Where to unload them? In Osinovec, where the loaded barges could not enter the harbor?
    And yes, about the power of watercraft:
    In September, the North-Western River Shipping Company had 5 lake and 72 river tugboats, 29 lake and about 100 river barges on Volkhov and Ladoga.
    But of the five lake tugs, only three were used for transportation of goods until the end of navigation. The tugboat “Voima” was thrown ashore by a storm on September 18, and the “Buoy” was busy laying an underwater telephone cable for a long time to establish a stable connection with Leningrad. Moreover, even those few steamships, due to the great air threat, towed only one or two barges.
    Out of 29 lake wooden barges, only 7 were in good condition, including 2 oil ones. The rest could be used only in favorable weather, with excitement no more than 3-4 points. But even all the available lake barges were clearly not enough. It was necessary to attract also river transportations. In total, 43 wooden dry cargo, 4 metal and 2 wooden oil barges participated in the transportation. 20 of them, by technical condition, did not have permission to swim in the lake at all.

    Storms and bombings disabled one ship after another. As a result, only two weeks after the start of water transportation, only nine lake and thirteen river barges remained afloat.
    (c) Marshmallows
    Quote: 3news
    Well, of course. The justifications of the Bolsheviks are always a million with a ponytail.
    Ah-ha-ha ... well, why do all anti-Sovietists actually turn out to be stubborn Bolsheviks from the series "Well, you're a communist !? And he machineed the machine gun ..."? laughing
    Tell your ancestors how, having 3 harbors with a depth of 2-2,5 m and 5 berths for all + a single railway to them, in a month to organize the supply of the millionth city. In the conditions of Ladoga storms.
    Quote: 3news
    Well yes. And the earth was spinning in the wrong direction, only since 1942. began to rotate correctly.

    Would you read anything on the topic. It took winter, spring, and part of the summer of 1942 to equip the harbors and build a new Ladoga transport fleet. On the Petersburg side, almost everything had to be done from scratch.
    Osinovets harbor, for example, could only be deepened in the summer of 1942
    1. 3news
      3news 10 February 2016 14: 29
      -4
      Quote: Alexey RA
      In Osinovec, where the loaded barges could not enter the harbor?

      Why is MRS a harbor? They never were on fishing collective farms.
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Storms and bombings disabled one ship after another.

      Where did the boats come in enough in 1942-43? Have multiplied? Or lie the sources you quoted?
      Quote: Alexey RA
      how, having 3 harbors with a depth of 2-2,5 m and 5 berths for all + the only railway to them, in a month to organize the supply of the millionth city. In the conditions of Ladoga storms.

      So I say, excuses are a million with a ponytail.
      PS. Why in a month? The fact that the front is approaching Leningrad was known many months before. And even close he came close long before freezing.
      Quote: Alexey RA
      It took winter, spring, and part of the summer of 1942 to equip the harbors and build a new Ladoga transport fleet. On the Petersburg side, almost everything had to be done from scratch.
      Osinovets harbor, for example, could only be deepened in the summer of 1942

      Yes, what are you talking about the harbor and other crap? People in the city were starving. Everything that could fight on the water, everything had to be involved. They would have somehow found in Leningrad a way to unload them outside the ports. And all aviation had to participate in cargo transportation, including fighter. Do you understand? To carry bread several times a day, and not to fight the Germans. With the Germans to fight, temporarily would have been enough ground troops.
      But all this in the fall of 1941. not done.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 10 February 2016 16: 19
        +3
        Quote: 3news
        Why is MRS a harbor? They never were on fishing collective farms.

        What are IFAs? When did you manage to transfer the USSR of the 80s in 1941?
        If there were IFRS in Ladoga in 1941 in commodity quantities, then they would not have mobilized river tugboats in the LVF. Even in 1942, after the restoration of everything that was just kept on the surface, and the transfer from other TVDs on Ladoga, only 26 motobots were put into operation.
        Quote: 3news
        Where did the boats come in enough in 1942-43? Have multiplied? Or lie the sources you quoted?

        Built them. Moreover, the equipment for the shipyards had to be dismantled and delivered from Leningrad.
        The construction of wooden barges was carried out at the shipyard, created on the basis of the evacuated Syassky pulp and paper mill. The necessary equipment was brought from the Leningrad woodworking plants. From April to November 1942, 31 wooden barges were built, each of them about 40 m long, 8 m wide, 3,2 m high.
        In March 1942, they began organizing the construction of metal barges. On March 24, 1942, the Military Council of the Leningrad Front decided to relocate the assembly site to the area of ​​Golsman Bay. Until July 23, 1942, 11 barges were built, and a total of 14

        Plus, during the winter-spring of 1942, "tenders" were developed and put into production.
        Quote: 3news
        PS. Why in a month? The fact that the front is approaching Leningrad was known many months before. And even close he came close long before freezing.

        And because in August the front was held along the Meadow. And the army team were sure. that will keep him.
        Quote: 3news
        Yes, what are you talking about the harbor and other crap? People in the city were starving. Everything that could fight on the water, everything had to be involved.

        Read the docks - they rulez! (C)
        Everything that could go to the lake was involved. And even that which could not.
        The biggest tragedy occurred on the night of September 17, when the old tug “Eagle” with pulls pulled a wooden barge No. 725, crowded with refugees and the military. According to the most conservative estimates, more than 1200 people sat on a half-rotten barge. At the beginning of the journey, a storm broke out on the lake, and in the area of ​​Severnaya Goloveshka banks, the old barge hull could not withstand the impact of the waves and broke.

        Quote: 3news
        And all aviation had to participate in cargo transportation, including fighter. Do you understand? To carry bread several times a day, and not to fight the Germans.

        Who to carry? To the Germans? Without air cover, even the minimum that was, the artillery positions and ships would be knocked out by backlashes. And the front would collapse.
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 10 February 2016 16: 20
        +3
        And here is what happened on the St. Petersburg shore of Lake Ladoga in the fall of 1941:
        Osinovets harbor with an area of ​​about 5 thousand square meters. m is located at the Osinovets lighthouse, 500 m from the railway Leningrad - Lake Ladoga and 1,5 km from the station Ladoga Lake. The 200-meter wooden overpass available in the harbor for unloading ships rotted. The depth of the harbor was shallow. The entrance to the harbor over 40 m and the middle of the harbor had a depth of 2 m, and near the dam and the remains of the flyover, only 1 m and less.
        Golsman harbor with an area of ​​about 2 thousand square meters. m is located 5 km north of Osinovets harbor in a wooded area and 3 km from the station. Ladoga lake. There was a flyover for one ship in the harbor. The depths in the harbor were shallow and ranged from 1 to 2 m. The entrance to the harbor had a depth of only 1.5 m. After carrying out deepening work in the harbor, the volume of which was determined to be 8350 cu m of soil, it was possible to unload no more than 3 vessels at a time.
        The third point, where it was possible to build moorings, was a rather extensive bay of Morje, located north of the Golsman harbor, 5 km from the northern end of station tracks of the station. Ladoga lake. However, by the beginning of the establishment of the fascist blockade of Leningrad, there was no equipment for unloading ships in the bay of Morye.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 10 February 2016 23: 12
      -1
      Quote: Alexey RA
      It took winter, spring, and part of the summer of 1942 to equip the harbors and build a new Ladoga transport fleet. On the Petersburg side, almost everything had to be done from scratch.

      Before freezing in 1941, supply was somehow carried out on Lake Ladoga, the situation was the most difficult from November to January 1941-1942.
      A couple of historical facts:
      Beer production ceased on September 23, and all stocks of malt, barley, soybeans and bran were transferred to bakeries

      On December 26, 1941, the Leningrad City Executive Committee ordered the Grocery Store to organize a one-time sale at home prices at state prices without food cards for academicians and corresponding members of the USSR Academy of Sciences: animal oil - 0.5 kg, wheat flour - 3 kg, canned meat or fish - 2 boxes, sugar 0.5 kg, eggs - 3 dozen, chocolate - 0.3 kg, cookies - 0.5 kg, and grape wine - 2 bottles.

      But scientists probably could have been evacuated, like a large number of the disabled population, because the barges went empty back, like in winter vehicles.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 11 February 2016 10: 17
        +1
        Quote: saturn.mmm
        Before freezing in 1941, supply was somehow carried out on Lake Ladoga, the situation was the most difficult from November to January 1941-1942.

        In the first 30 days of navigation, only 9800 tons of food were delivered to Osinovets. If we consider that the daily consumption of flour alone in Leningrad at that time was 1100 tons, it becomes clear that this was very little. With the task of speeding up the turnover of ships and increasing food delivery, on October 13, at the direction of the Military Council of the Front, a group of senior officials arrived at the head of the Leningrad City Executive Committee P.S. Popkov arrived in Novaya Ladoga and Gostinopolie. As a result, measures were taken to quickly restore faulty barges, and constant dispatch monitoring was established for the movement of each vessel. This allowed for the week, from October 14 to 20, to transport 5 thousand tons of food to Osinovets. 189

        However, October as a whole did not bring an increase in food delivery for Leningrad. Because of the storms that raged at the beginning and at the end of the month, all movement was interrupted on the lake for ten days. In addition, due to the impossibility of loading the arriving barges from Gostinopol in the raid of New Ladoga in bad weather, they still went to Osinovets underloaded. Because of this, barges with a carrying capacity of 400-800 tons delivered only 300-500 tons of cargo.

        The lack of berths, the almost complete lack of mechanization of loading and unloading, and sometimes their poor organization delayed the turnover of barges. The military prosecutor’s office of the Ladoga Naval Flotilla and the Front Logistics Front Directorate N. I. Zhmakin, who checked the Osinovets port on October 22, stated that a limited number of barges run between Osinovets and Novaya Ladova and that they take a very long time to unload. So, barges No. 512 and No. 768 with ammunition arrived in Osinovets on October 13, and were unloaded only on October 17; barge No. 367 with gasoline arrived on October 17, and unloaded on October 21. Due to the storm several timely unloaded ships sank. This happened on October 19 with barge No. 6252, which arrived at the port on October 18 with a load of rye. Barge No. 5020, which arrived with flour on October 18, sank on the night of October 20. All these difficulties and shortcomings led to the fact that the turnover of barges instead of 4 days was 6-12 days.

        Quote: saturn.mmm
        But scientists probably could have been evacuated, like a large number of the disabled population, because the barges went empty back, like in winter vehicles.

        Despite the difficult conditions, evacuation transport continued. In October, transportation of materials and industrial equipment of the Kirov and Izhora plants began. However, these transportations were not carried out for long, as there were not enough vehicles and there was no equipment for handling bulky goods. In total, only 6 barges were dispatched with factory property. In November, due to the need for operational transportation, the evacuation of equipment was completely stopped.

        In November, it was necessary to save the Tikhvin direction - otherwise the ring of the blockade around Leningrad would be closed by land.
  19. Alexey T. (Oper)
    Alexey T. (Oper) 10 February 2016 13: 04
    +6
    Did you say there was enough power of the boats? And how many of them could work directly on the lake, and not on shipping channels? And the moorings and berthing facilities (cranes, conveyors, etc.) were able to receive and handle a large amount of cargo? And access roads to these moorings? What about transport for delivering food from the berths directly to the city? And the capacity of the road from Osinovets to the city allowed to cram enough food on it?

    If not in the know, then in August 41 there were no ports in Osinovets, Goltsman and Morye bays and they had to be built practically from scratch, from dredging to the construction of a narrow-gauge railway from the berths of the Ladoga Lake railway station.

    And after all, the Germans did not doze off, all the work went under bombing.

    It’s easy to throw charges behind a monitor screen. And if you try to figure it out?
    1. 3news
      3news 10 February 2016 14: 13
      -2
      Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
      Did you say there was enough power of the boats?

      Enough. This was shown by the subsequent history of the siege of Leningrad.
      Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
      If you don’t know, then in August of the 41st there weren’t even ports in Osinovets, Goltzman and Morye bays and they had to be built from scratch

      Fishing seiners and barges do not need ports. They were not and are not on fishing collective farms. No need to think so globally. Huge efforts were not needed. I gave the calculations above, it was necessary only 2 small fishing seiners per day of food additionally. 60 flights for reserve for a month, while there will be freezing. What is this grandiose and unsolvable task like that?
      Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
      And after all, the Germans did not doze off, all the work went under bombing.

      Yes, interfere, and so what? In the end, they failed to interfere.
      1. Alexey T. (Oper)
        Alexey T. (Oper) 10 February 2016 15: 13
        +2
        What are the seiners, dear? On Lake Ladoga, even in our time, fish are caught either from karbasov or from fishing transport boats with a length of 8-10 meters and the corresponding carrying capacity and seaworthiness.

        By the way, even for them, moorings in the form of ponds or pontoons are required. And they also need to be taken somewhere. Plus, people and mechanisms are still needed to load them (on one bank) and unload them (on the other). Crews are needed to drive them around the lake. We need access roads to the places of loading and unloading, we need military units and weapons to guard and protect them (including air defense), we need transport to transport goods, etc. etc. And provided that the transportation will be small, all this will require a multiple increase in the places of unloading, which will also entail a multiple increase in all the other components listed above.

        So do not fantasize, all the more so stupid.

        The leadership of Leningrad did everything possible to provide for the population and troops of the front.
        1. 3news
          3news 10 February 2016 15: 43
          -2
          Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
          What are the seiners, dear? On Lake Ladoga, even in our time, fish are caught either from karbasov or from fishing transport boats with a length of 8-10 meters and the corresponding carrying capacity and seaworthiness.

          Yes, anyway, than to carry food. If carbases, it means you just need more carbases.
          Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
          By the way, even for them, moorings in the form of ponds or pontoons are required. And they also need to be taken somewhere. Plus, people and mechanisms are still needed to load them (on one bank) and unload them (on the other). Crews are needed to drive them around the lake.

          Explain to me, dear. Where did these carbases and crews come from in 1942? Have you fallen from the sky? And your "difficulties" are far-fetched. It would be that, but how, they would find a way to unload.
          Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
          The leadership of Leningrad did everything possible to provide for the population and troops of the front.

          I doubt it very much. Simple, very strong. Especially knowing the "history of the Bolsheviks".
        2. npzh
          npzh 10 February 2016 15: 45
          +1
          A good analysis of the situation:
          http://sirjones.livejournal.com/1188167.html?thread=17098311#t17361479

          "The transportation of goods to Leningrad was carried out by a difficult and long way. To Volkhov station, the goods were delivered by rail through Vologda, Cherepovets and Tikhvin. Then the cars were delivered to the Gostinopole pier, where the goods were loaded onto shallow-draft river barges. From Gostinopol river tugs carried barges along the Volkhov to Novaya Ladoga, where cargoes were loaded onto lake barges on the Volkhov roadstead.The further route of the barges to Osinovets passed along Lake Ladoga, along which they were driven by lake tugs or ships of the Ladoga military flotilla. From Osinovets, cargoes were delivered by narrow-gauge railway to the Irinovskaya railway line, along which they already followed directly to Leningrad. " Naturally, most of the transshipment bases had to be organized from scratch. Thus, the organization of transportation was pure improvisation. Everything was extremely complicated by the fact that the Germans from the very beginning tried to disrupt these shipments. And, of course, the terrible Ladoga storms.
        3. The comment was deleted.
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 10 February 2016 16: 39
        +3
        Quote: 3news
        Enough. This was shown by the subsequent history of the siege of Leningrad.

        By the opening of navigation on Lake Ladoga, the repaired and prepared for transportation fleet, which mainly belonged to the North-Western River Shipping Company and the Ladoga Military Flotilla, totaled 116 units of self-propelled and non-self-propelled cargo and passenger fleets with a total carrying capacity of 32 tons. However, the transport fleet had many river non-self-propelled ships that in peaceful conditions were generally not allowed to sail on the lake.

        That is, navigation of 1942 began, with a carrying capacity of 33 kilotons. Total. Including unsuitable for walking on the lake.
        And the situation was saved only by the fact that throughout the winter and spring of 1942 a shipbuilding industry was built on Ladoga - Shipyard and shipbuilding plants. In 1942, these plants delivered barges with a total carrying capacity of 25 kilotons.
        Except them:
        ... during the navigation of 1942, 118 self-propelled tenders and motobots were built and delivered to the Ladoga military flotilla.

        And here, what in 1942 the former small harbors without access roads turned into:
        The Osinovets port, which included the bays of Moreye, Novaya, Osinovets, Golsmana and Kabotazhnaya Gavan, totaled 14 piers with a total length of more than 2200 linear meters. The construction of the port required the development of railway lines Ladoga lake. As a result of the construction of loading and unloading tracks in adjacent bays, the laying of the second path from the station. Lake Ladoga to the station. More and other works, a powerful railway junction was created with the stations Morje, Bolt, Kostyl, Osinovets, Cabotage Harbor and Lake Ladoga included in it. In total, in 1942, about 30 km of broad gauge tracks and about 9 km of narrow gauge were laid.

        It was these six months of winter-spring work and parts of the summer of 1942 that determined the successful supply of Leningrad in 1942 compared with 1941.
  • npzh
    npzh 10 February 2016 09: 56
    +3
    This is liberalism. 125 grams was given not because of particular cruelty, but because of the lack of physical ability to provide a normal ration.
  • V.ic
    V.ic 10 February 2016 10: 21
    +6
    Quote: 3news
    This is Sovdepiya.

    You are our tolerant Council of Deputies, insert yourself in a known place. The term can be roughly applied to the period from 1918 to the end of 1922. It was not the Bolsheviks that you swore, but your ideological allies who bombed the Badayev warehouses; it was not the Bolsheviks who closed the ring around Leningrad, but the vanguard of the new crusaders, "bringing liberation from the Bolshevik yoke."
    1. 3news
      3news 10 February 2016 11: 05
      -10 qualifying.
      Quote: V.ic
      The term can be, conditionally, applied to the period from 1918 to the end of 1922.

      Really? There were no councils and deputies in 1990?
      Quote: V.ic
      not the Bolsheviks closed the ring around Leningrad

      Learn geography, Mitrofanushka. Was only land blockade of Leningrad. There was no blockade along Ladoga and there was no air blockade. However, the air can even be ignored. Ladoga was enough to supply the city with food. It was more or less adjusted, and the food ration was increased. But this happened when a huge mass of the population had already died of hunger. And before that, the Bolsheviks did not really itch. And they brought the daily allowance for employees, dependents and children to 125 grams of "bread" made from some unknown source.
      Quote: V.ic
      bombed Badaevskie warehouses

      And what did the Bolsheviks count on during the war? For the supply of chocolate from Germany? Of course, bombed. A strategic object that should have been either protected as it should. Or spread out.
      1. npzh
        npzh 10 February 2016 11: 13
        +7
        "Ladoga was enough to supply the city with food"

        Please tell us how it was possible to use Ladoga after the start of ice formation and before the establishment of durable ice? I love fairy tales.
        1. 3news
          3news 10 February 2016 11: 34
          -3
          Quote: npzh
          how could Ladoga be used after the start of ice formation and before the establishment of durable ice?

          Have you heard the Russian proverb about "prepare the sleigh in the summer and the cart in the winter"? No? Take an interest.
          And further. Freeze-up in 1941 on Ladoga happened not for the first time in history. He happened there every year. And it happens to this day.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 10 February 2016 13: 05
            +6
            Quote: 3news
            Have you heard the Russian proverb about "prepare the sleigh in the summer and the cart in the winter"? No? Take an interest.

            That is, the leadership of the USSR had to prepare ahead of time for the blockade of the city, which was not even in the okrug bordering Germany?

            Nevertheless, the sled was being prepared: the evacuation from the city began in June 1941. And this despite the fact that even in August 1941 our command had every reason to believe that the Germans were stopped to the north.
            Quote: 3news
            And further. Freeze-up in 1941 on Ladoga happened not for the first time in history. He happened there every year. And it happens to this day.

            And what from this?
            Barges and cannons went with cargo across the ice to the last (some LVF ships could not even reach their bases - they hibernated and froze in ice). And in parallel, all the data on the ice situation on Lake Ladoga rose and the route of the ice route was made.
            1. 3news
              3news 10 February 2016 14: 07
              -3
              Quote: Alexey RA
              not even in the okrug bordering Germany?

              But in the border with Finland.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              And this despite the fact that even in August 1941 our command had every reason to believe that the Germans in the north were stopped.

              And what grounds and what did this command think in September and October 1941? Or did ice freezing already begin in September?
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Barges and cannons went with cargo through the ice to the last

              They should have started walking earlier. Clear? Ahead of time? As soon as the situation has complicated, start. Prepare for the siege.
              1. Flanke
                Flanke 10 February 2016 16: 37
                +5
                Are you paid or ideological?

                The issue with Finland was reliably resolved in the year 39. Learn the materiel or go to facebook, where the audience is illiterate and therefore harmonious with you.
                1. 3news
                  3news 10 February 2016 18: 32
                  -1
                  Quote: Flanke
                  The issue with Finland was reliably resolved in the year 39.

                  Really? Very reliable? And with what in 1944. was engaged in the Red Army on the river Svir? See below.
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. V.ic
                  V.ic 10 February 2016 21: 26
                  +1
                  Quote: Flanke
                  The issue with Finland was reliably resolved in the year 39.

                  Refine: March 12, 1940 ...
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 10 February 2016 16: 45
                +3
                Quote: 3news
                But in the border with Finland.

                Finns who cut supplies on the Neva and the railways, before the war, could only dream in a nightmare.
                Quote: 3news
                And what grounds and what did this command think in September and October 1941? Or did ice freezing already begin in September?

                I say - read the docks:
                The question of building new marinas on the lake arose even before the loss of Shlisselburg. On August 30, 1941. The State Defense Committee proposed immediately preparing an unloading front near the Ladoga Lake railway station for sending barges here if necessary. On September 1, 1941, the Military Council of the Leningrad Front ordered the head of the Directorate of the Northwestern Basin of the People’s Commissariat for Borodin to reconnoiter possible unloading sites for lake barges from Cape Osinovets to Cape Moryin Nos and to draw up technical projects for the construction of berths for receiving 12 lake barges daily.

                Despite the fact that even the minimum conditions for unloading ships were almost completely absent on the western shore of Ladoga, the Military Council of the Leningrad Front, in connection with the seizure of Shlisselburg by German Nazi forces on September 8, 1941, was forced by its decree of September 9 to do all the work of unloading and receiving food and military cargoes to be transferred to Osinovets harbor. Captain of the 1st rank N. Yu. Avraamov was appointed authorized representative of the Front Council of the Front for harbor equipment and for the organization of unloading operations, and I. I. Logachev, head of the NWRP, was appointed his deputy. The Balttechflot of the People's Commissariat of Construction of the USSR with an excavating fleet and maintenance personnel for dredging were transferred to N. Yu. Avraamov's subordination; EPRON in terms of performing the necessary diving operations; the construction apparatus, formed by the head of the North-West Administrative District, at the disposal of which stood out old river barges for use as temporary berths, 2 construction and 1 sapper battalions. By September 10, the front rear commander was obligated to concentrate the staff and resources of the Shlisselburg transshipment area in the Osinovets harbor area as part of the control apparatus, 2 working battalions, a guard company, warehouses, and 20 cars. The harbor was ready to receive one vessel on September 11, 5 on September 18, 12 on September 25, 1941.

                Quote: 3news
                They should have started walking earlier. Clear? Ahead of time? As soon as the situation has complicated, start. Prepare for the siege.

                When ahead of time? In August? When there was no blockade yet and the city was supplied in the normal mode - through the river port and railway?

                To solve the problem of supplying Leningrad in Ladoga, it took more than six months. And only by the middle of the summer of 1942 it was possible to ensure a normal supply.
                1. 3news
                  3news 10 February 2016 18: 29
                  -1
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  before the war they could only dream in a nightmare.

                  You speak very army-like. Generally, there is military planning for such "bad dreams".
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  The harbor was ready to receive one vessel on September 11, 5 on September 18, 12 on September 25, 1941.

                  Well, where were those "converted harbors"? And where was the aviation? And where were the boats? Count how many people starved to death every day. Up to rowboats, everyone had to carry food to Leningrad.
                  But no luck. And this already leads to completely different thoughts.
            2. Pilat2009
              Pilat2009 10 February 2016 20: 30
              0
              Quote: Alexey RA
              That is, the leadership of the USSR had to prepare ahead of time for the blockade of the city

              Following his logic, it was necessary ahead of time to prepare for the blockade of all surrendered and non-surrendered cities apparently
          2. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 10 February 2016 13: 08
            +8
            Quote: 3news
            Quote: npzh
            how could Ladoga be used after the start of ice formation and before the establishment of durable ice?

            Have you heard the Russian proverb about "prepare the sleigh in the summer and the cart in the winter"? No? Take an interest.
            And further. Freeze-up in 1941 on Ladoga happened not for the first time in history. He happened there every year. And it happens to this day.

            It happened there every year, but not every year non-Germans pressed the city to the lake.
            1. 3news
              3news 10 February 2016 14: 01
              -2
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              It happened there every year, but not every year non-Germans pressed the city to the lake.

              It wasn’t. The city and the lake are too big. There were difficulties, yes. But not unsolvable. The further history of Leningrad confirms this. They only started to solve them belatedly.
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 10 February 2016 14: 32
                +4
                So explain to me why the Germans were stopped for the first time on the banks of the Voronka. And why the soldiers of the Brest Fortress fought until August 41.
                1. 3news
                  3news 10 February 2016 14: 40
                  -1
                  Quote: Mordvin 3
                  So explain to me why the Germans were stopped for the first time on the banks of the Voronka. And why the soldiers of the Brest Fortress fought until August 41.

                  What are you talking about? What does this have to do with Leningrad?
                  PS. The organized defense of the Brest Fortress ceased on 29 on June 1941. with the fall of the East Fort.
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 10 February 2016 16: 13
                    +3
                    Quote: 3news
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    So explain to me why the Germans were stopped for the first time on the banks of the Voronka. And why the soldiers of the Brest Fortress fought until August 41.

                    What are you talking about? What does this have to do with Leningrad?
                    PS. The organized defense of the Brest Fortress ceased on 29 on June 1941. with the fall of the East Fort.

                    But, nevertheless, there were letters from the Wehrmacht soldiers from August 11, such as: yesterday, two of us died from a knife.
                    1. 3news
                      3news 10 February 2016 18: 25
                      -1
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      There were letters from the Wehrmacht soldiers of August 11, such as: yesterday, two of us died from a knife.

                      This is not the defense of the object, it is called in other words.
              2. alicante11
                alicante11 10 February 2016 14: 34
                +5
                There were difficulties, yes. But not unsolvable. The further history of Leningrad confirms this. They only started to solve them belatedly.


                Take a pencil, handbooks on the construction of ports, dredging, road works and calculate how long it will take to build ports of sufficient capacity to organize the supply of Leningrad across Ladoga. For some reason, it seems to me that after that you will believe in the Stakhanov movement and imbued with the "Council of Deputies" with high reverence.
                1. Alexey T. (Oper)
                  Alexey T. (Oper) 10 February 2016 14: 58
                  +6
                  It's useless. He does not set himself the task of understanding the essence of the matter. He simply throws the charges, not even trying to understand what he is writing about.
                  1. 3news
                    3news 10 February 2016 15: 38
                    -1
                    Quote: Alexey T. (Opera)
                    He does not set himself the task of understanding the essence of the matter.

                    Just above it was calculated and written how much and what it was necessary to give an extra lift so that people would not die of hunger. After all, a completely small amount of food. Weren't so many lives worth such a little extra effort? And why could this be done in 1942-43, but could not be done in 1941?
                2. 3news
                  3news 10 February 2016 15: 53
                  -2
                  Quote: alicante11
                  And you take a pencil, handbooks on the construction of ports, dredging, road works and calculate how much time it will take to build ports of sufficient capacity to organize the supply of Leningrad in Ladoga.

                  No, of course, if you first build ports, and only then feed people, then you will have a sad result.
                  I repeat, there was not enough food. Therefore, everything that was kept on water was supposed to transport food to Leningrad. And exactly the same thing had to do all that is kept in the air. Including fighter aircraft. Only in this case could one count on a different result.
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 10 February 2016 16: 58
                    +3
                    Quote: 3news
                    I repeat, there was not enough food. Therefore, everything that was kept on water was supposed to transport food to Leningrad. And exactly the same thing had to do all that is kept in the air. Including fighter aircraft. Only in this case could one count on a different result.

                    That is what they did in 1941. As a result of the emergency and assault, the losses during transportation on unsuitable ships and barges were extremely large. And the efficiency of cargo handling was such that food debris intended for the city formed on the mainland.

                    However, it was difficult to expect otherwise. Indeed, from the side of Leningrad there were 2 harbors with depths of 1-2 m (and the access to the harbors was blocked by shallows with depths of the order of 1 m), in one of which only 3 vessels could fit. And the single-track railway directly in the harbors did not fit.

                    Even if it would have been possible to collect the tonnage sufficient to deliver supplies for the city through the autumn storm Ladoga, it simply would have nowhere to be unloaded at the required pace. Vessels would stand in an open lake, waiting in line.
                    1. 3news
                      3news 10 February 2016 18: 23
                      -1
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      That is what they did in 1941. As a result of the emergency and assault, the losses during transportation on unsuitable ships and barges were extremely large.

                      Nowhere have I met information that on this topic in 1941. there were rummages and assault. These are your fantasies.
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      Indeed, from the side of Leningrad there were 2 harbors with depths of 1-2 m

                      Again you are about the harbor. If you follow your logic, then in Stalingrad the Germans had to first build factories, then planes on them, and only then supply their troops from the air. This is flawed logic.
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      there simply was nowhere to unload it at the required pace. Vessels would stand in an open lake, waiting in line.

                      Do not make up. A hungry city would find a way to get food from these ships.
                3. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. V.ic
        V.ic 10 February 2016 11: 19
        +5
        Quote: 3news
        Really?

        Quote: 3news
        Learn geography

        Quote: 3news
        And for what

        Verbosity not supported by facts does not mean the presence of intelligence, but only the presence of a pomelo language.
        1. 3news
          3news 10 February 2016 11: 28
          -4
          Quote: V.ic
          but only the presence of a language-pomelo.

          Are you talking to yourself? Seem to be. Because you have nothing to object to.
  • wandlitz
    wandlitz 10 February 2016 09: 34
    +8
    I have already spoken out on this subject once. Now just repeat the above ...
    wandlitz RU 21 September 2013 21: 04 | They came to ruin a strange house ... (“Rot Fuchs”, Germany)

    After military service, he worked for three years as a freak in the GSVG. Often went to one goschett, was familiar with some of the Germans. In 1984, he was 79 years old. Of all the Germans I knew, he was the oldest. He talked about how he fought, was drafted into the 42, and in the 43 he was captured. Prior to 46, he worked at a mine in Kopeysk.
    And I told him: “So my father began his career as a miner in Kopeisk from the 1948 year.” He responded to me in Russian: “O-O countryman.” After all the time his countryman called me. I called him "Grandfather." Ewald recalled: “When the prisoners at the mine exceeded the norm, they were given extra ration for this. But to your civilian population, who worked at the mine, no one gave anything. Russians ate worse than prisoners. I respect your people. You are not vindictive. ” Most of the captured Germans worked in the Union, it seems, until the 1949 year, the latter were sent home as early as the 1956 year.
    In 1947, in our region, my mother told me, no less people died from hunger than during the whole war. A crop failure occurred and there was not enough food. The prisoners were fed. Of course we are not vindictive. This is only ovish propaganda represents us like that.
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 10 February 2016 14: 51
      +2
      Quote: wandlitz
      The prisoners were fed. Of course we are not vindictive. This is only ovish propaganda represents us like that.

      By the way, it is known from the books about that period that the captured Germans were allowed to "beg" the local population ...
  • npzh
    npzh 10 February 2016 09: 55
    +2
    "He was captured, but the cunning Hartmann managed to pretend to be seriously wounded and thus lull the vigilance of his guards. He was able to escape. But he was quickly found and placed in a camp located near the town of Shakhty in the Rostov region."

    Hartman was captured for the first time in 1943, but successfully fled. The second time he surrendered to the Americans, after the end of hostilities in May 1945, but was transferred to ours.

    You should at least look at Wikipedia before writing.
    1. efimovaPE
      10 February 2016 10: 25
      +3
      I do not agree with you that Wikipedia is the last resort in the study of certain facts. Information about the pilot was given to me in the Union of veterans of the 4 th Red Banner Army Air Force and Air Defense. Our pilots know the story much better than Wikipedia. Moreover, Hartmann was in captivity on the territory of the Rostov region.
      1. Loreal
        Loreal 10 February 2016 10: 36
        +2
        Soviet pilots vryatli escorted him, and, moreover, kept him in custody.

        Partaigenoss was simply notorious during the capture of his own aircraft (by the way, those who shot down his anti-aircraft guns were found?), This helped his escape when the soldiers in the truck got tired of smelling him, and they let him clean better.
      2. npzh
        npzh 10 February 2016 10: 57
        0
        Wikipedia, of course, is not the sharpest knife on the table. But the Union of Veterans apparently does not know who Hartman is, when he was captured and how he ended up in the Rostov Region.

        In any case, the facts are just that - Hartman escaped from captivity at 43, and ended up in our camp in 1945, after surrendering to the Americans.
        1. Loreal
          Loreal 10 February 2016 11: 19
          +1
          Yes, he was probably held captive for half an hour - crap, and in the bushes laughing
          And the infantrymen confirmed this, but he himself wrote about the smell that tormented him ... Carefully, with memoirs!
    2. The centurion
      The centurion 10 February 2016 19: 26
      +1
      Quote: npzh
      He was captured, but the cunning Hartmann managed to pretend to be seriously wounded and thus put down the vigilance of his escorts.

      About Hartman in the article is complete nonsense. When he was captured in the Kuban, the collective farmers-militiamen who were guarding the captured pilots simply slept and he fled. And he was handed over to our allies in 1945 under an agreement on the extradition of war criminals. Ours politely offered him to train Soviet pilots in a military school, but he politely refused. Then he was impolitely offered. He refused impolitely. Then he was soldered 25 years in the camps "for damage to Soviet military property on an especially large scale." Not Khukhry Mukhry, but he shot down more than 300 Soviet military aircraft, for which they soldered. But he was surprisingly disgusting, although he was a meter tall with a cap, so his call sign was "baby". In a camp near the Ural city of Asbestos, he staged a riot of prisoners of war, for which he received another 25 years. When Khrushchev came to power, it was decided to return the captured Germans to their homeland. The last to be released were the most harmful like Hartman and the most useful like Schmeiser, who worked at Izhmash to improve Soviet weapons, including the AK-47. After returning to Germany, where Hartmann was greeted as a hero, he served in the Luftwaffe and rose to the rank of Major General. But he resigned with a scandal, as he sharply opposed the purchase of supersonic American fighters with a very high accident rate and the status of flying coffins in the Luftwaffe. In retirement, he died safely in retirement, leaving a book of memoirs, where he described his biography in detail.
      1. npzh
        npzh 11 February 2016 08: 41
        0
        In fairness, I note that he himself did not leave any memories. There is a book written based on conversations with him.
      2. Loreal
        Loreal 11 February 2016 10: 15
        0
        I will impolitely point out to you that Schmeiser could not work on improving Soviet weapons, because he was not a designer, and there were no secrets in Hartman's "tactics", and he would not have lived among the cadets for a long time (although in fact he shot down less than 300) ...
  • 1234567890
    1234567890 10 February 2016 10: 33
    +2
    Anyone else, but I especially liked about marriages with prisoners of war. Twisted by our women and attracts exoticism: now for a German, now for a Turk, now for a ha-ha-ayah Fi-in pa-a-arn. And the saying in the subject came to mind "women are fools, not because they are fools, but because women."
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 10 February 2016 14: 39
      +2
      Whoever, but I especially liked about marriage with prisoners of war. Sverbet at our women and pulls on the exotic: now for the Germans, then for the Turks, then for the ha-arichy fi-inskogo pa-a-arna.


      And then there wasn’t much choice. Since millions of 20 men were destroyed in the 200mln population, when, according to statistics, there are more women than men, finding their Russian was not so easy. And one that is still not legless and with the entire working economy is even more difficult.
      Do not confuse, there is despair, out of stupidity - this is in the 90s, when the "hostesses" went, knowing full well how this "hostess" ends.
    2. Koshak
      Koshak 10 February 2016 19: 46
      0
      Exoticism is already going wild!

      The war is over
      and I was left alone -
      me and the horse, me and the bull,
      I am a woman and a man. am

      There are few articles on this site about this exotic.
  • onega67
    onega67 10 February 2016 11: 10
    +3
    in vain so fed! how many of ours died in captivity! it was necessary to take their life from them! then there would be no one today to take our gains!
  • King, just king
    King, just king 10 February 2016 11: 20
    +2
    In vain, fed creatures. It was necessary to have the Leningrad norm, and the kilo in hand, or on the construction of socialism, even if in a couple of months the land was fertilized (underground)!
  • King, just king
    King, just king 10 February 2016 11: 27
    +4
    Quote: 3news
    Quote: Polina Efimova
    In July, the 1941 of the year was followed by a reduction in the rate of issue of bread to 500 grams per day. Depending on the situation at the front and in the rear, ration of prisoners in the middle of 1942 was reduced to 400 grams of bread per day. It was the lowest power bar, which then never went down.

    This is the Council of Deputies. To his citizens in Leningrad from November 20, 1941. for employees, dependents and children for a month, the daily food allowance was 125 grams of "bread" with only a little flour in it. And from the end of December 1941. until mid-February 1942 to 190.


    Yes, citizen of 3news, yes, we had a Council of Deputies! Only our Soviet Union defeated the Germans and their allies, and not how your Holland licked the entire Fritz anus!
    1. 3news
      3news 10 February 2016 11: 31
      -2
      Quote: King, just king
      Only our USSR Germans and their allies defeated

      About 27 million lives of compatriots to recall?
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 10 February 2016 13: 28
        +4
        Quote: 3news
        Quote: King, just king
        Only our USSR Germans and their allies defeated

        About 27 million lives of compatriots to recall?

        And, that, it was necessary to go under them. My grandfather was in captivity, told how he was taken to be shot, and how, out of hunger, he pulled a bag of bread from a burning plane. And fed them with scraps. But, the Wehrmacht soldiers who guarded them respected them more than their allies, Romanians.
        1. 3news
          3news 10 February 2016 13: 53
          -6
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          And, what, you had to go under them

          I am not talking about that. I mean that there is nothing special to be proud of. Now, if the same result, but with 2,7 million losses, then another thing. No victory costs 27 million lives of fellow citizens. Because in this case, it resembles a Pyrrhic victory.
          She was not celebrated at first. Only then, when the pain of the losses calmed down a bit, they began to celebrate little by little. And then turned into a fetish, completely forgetting about the amount of losses.
          PS. Yes, and 2,7 million, this is also a lot.
          PPP. In my opinion, it is necessary to introduce the Day of Remembrance and Sorrow on June 22 of each year.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 10 February 2016 14: 12
            +3
            So what is the reason for pride? Like, oops, dusted off the boots, or when it seems that the enemy has already trampled you into the mud, and you get out of it with the words lying, can you wait? I personally like the second.
            1. 3news
              3news 10 February 2016 14: 17
              -3
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              So what is the reason for pride?

              Controversial, in my opinion. The pros of winning are greatly discounted by the minuses of the amount of losses. Therefore, the position of the post-war era when I was not particularly celebrated on May 9 seems more reasonable to me. And about the Day of Remembrance and Sorrow on June 22 of each year, that would be the right decision, in my opinion.
          2. Nikolaevich I
            Nikolaevich I 10 February 2016 14: 59
            +6
            Quote: 3news
            I mean that there is nothing special to be proud of.

            Victory in such a war, not proud! fool Hold on You have already shown yourself to be 100% shit!
            1. 3news
              3news 10 February 2016 15: 30
              -1
              Quote: Nikolaevich I
              Victory in such a war, not proud!

              Nothing in this world costs 27 million lives of compatriots. And even more so to be proud of the result obtained at such a price, this is blasphemy.
              You must not be proud, but grieve. Whole country. Every year. 22nd of June.
              Quote: Nikolaevich I
              You have already shown yourself to be 100% shitty!

              100% about you.
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 10 February 2016 17: 02
                +3
                Quote: 3news
                Nothing in this world costs 27 million lives of compatriots.

                Worth it. The life of an even greater number of compatriots who would die if the Germans won. For one fate was destined for us: the rural inhabitants had to work hard at the Reichskhozes for the benefit of the Reich, and the urban ones - to die out.
                "Green Folder" - Herr Thomas, who is a "military economist", compiled it. Available in the original in the Bundesarchive / Militaraarchive. "Economic" measures in the occupied territory are undersigned. In particular, from the USSR, in any scenario and any mood of the local population, it is expected to receive 2.5 million tons of grain, which the USSR promised Germany from the 1941 harvest and which are already included in the food balance of the Reich (there is nothing without them), 3 million tons of grain for food for the army (if you drag it out of the Reich, the capacity of the railways will not be enough) and about 2 million more tons for the obligations undertaken by Germany to Romania, Hungary and others. In total, about 8 million tons of grain. Herr Thomas did not build rainbow illusions and clearly stated, that this plan can be implemented only if the existing agricultural system is maintained, including mainly in the form of collective farms (if you start a wide experiment with forms of ownership, you can drive past the 1941 harvest with songs) and severe non-economic coercion regarding the seizure of grain. It also says that when implementing this plan, millions of indigenous people are expected to starve to death, but the Reich should not bother, since the occupied territories are required as a source of raw materials, not a highly developed industrial area, and the peak of mortality will be in industrial areas that already do not provide themselves with agricultural products able.
                1. 3news
                  3news 10 February 2016 18: 16
                  -1
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  who would die if the Germans won

                  Well, what other fantasy options are missing? Only 2 options spin in your head? Or, as it was, or the Germans win?
                  What about a little blood and on foreign territory? Realistically, not in slogans. The USSR at the beginning of the Second World War possessed weapons, as all of Europe combined. Over the Germans there was an overwhelming advantage in the amount of technology. Why was it necessary to do everything ** at first? What for? To then put thousands and thousands of conquering the lost?
                  Think about it. Above the third option. And then the "wise leadership" of the mustachioed ghoul Dzhugashvili will not seem as wise to you as it is now.
                2. The comment was deleted.
      2. Samoyed
        Samoyed 10 February 2016 15: 04
        +3
        And what, proud of the French, who planted their wives under the Germans?
        1. 3news
          3news 10 February 2016 15: 34
          -1
          Quote: Samoyed
          And what, proud of the French, who planted their wives under the Germans?

          I'm French to my ass, I'm not French.
          PS. Remind me how long the occupation of the European part of the USSR lasted? Not much less than 2/3 of France.
          1. The comment was deleted.
      3. The comment was deleted.
  • Navy7981
    Navy7981 10 February 2016 12: 20
    +1
    We have always been like that. In battle, in a fever, everything that you want to be judged, we ourselves are surprised, but it is necessary to go through the heat of fury and immediately begin to regret. It doesn’t work out differently. Well, we can’t be cruel for cruelty, like others.
    1. onega67
      onega67 10 February 2016 12: 51
      0
      And it would be necessary! Then we would be respected more!
  • Valery 1966
    Valery 1966 10 February 2016 12: 47
    +1
    Captured Germans ate from the same boiler as their guards. And so they had no offense on this score.
    1. 3news
      3news 10 February 2016 15: 47
      -1
      Quote: Valery 1966
      And so they had no offense on this score.

      Who is interested in their "grievances"? Let them tell them to themselves in the barracks at night.
    2. Russiamoy
      Russiamoy 10 February 2016 23: 31
      0
      It was also necessary that these captive Germans turn on documentary films about their camps every evening. the Germans love to document everything, and they shot films for 100 years. That would be remembered and grandchildren told and analyzed.
  • MahsusNazar
    MahsusNazar 10 February 2016 14: 41
    +7
    Quote: 3news
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    And, what, you had to go under them

    I am not talking about that. I mean that there is nothing special to be proud of. Now, if the same result, but with 2,7 million losses, then another thing. No victory costs 27 million lives of fellow citizens. Because in this case, it resembles a Pyrrhic victory.
    She was not celebrated at first. Only then, when the pain of the losses calmed down a bit, they began to celebrate little by little. And then turned into a fetish, completely forgetting about the amount of losses.
    PS. Yes, and 2,7 million, this is also a lot.
    PPP. In my opinion, it is necessary to introduce the Day of Remembrance and Sorrow on June 22 of each year.

    I suffered for a long time! Shot or suffocate already. What would he say new, otherwise all that crap about sorrow and stuff. Day of sorrow is June 22, and May 9 is Victory Day.
    And, don’t write the answer, don’t. I won’t talk to you anymore, disgusting.
    1. 3news
      3news 10 February 2016 15: 24
      -4
      Quote: MahsusNazar
      And, don’t write the answer, don’t. I won’t talk to you anymore, disgusting.

      And you would know how disgusting to me such subjects as you. For whom the lives of compatriots are rubbish under their feet. A means of achieving the "great task".
      Where are the fruits of those "great achievements"? Where are the fruits of all sorts of "collectivizations" and other Bolshevik crap? There is none of them. And tens of millions of victims of those times and their descendants definitely will not be. Never. And the farther, the number of those that will never be, continues to grow. Because not only they died, but all their descendants. Far ahead.
      1. born_in_USSR
        born_in_USSR 10 February 2016 16: 38
        +4
        Are you really sick? That is, the Soviet government and Stalin himself are to blame for the fact that all of Europe attacked the USSR? Yes, the country has lost 27 million lives, but whose fault? Through the fault of those who defended their homeland or through the fault of the aggressors, think about this ram-horned sheep. By your logic, it turns out that all victims of violence are to blame for themselves, there was nothing to resist.
        1. 3news
          3news 10 February 2016 18: 07
          -1
          Quote: born_in_USSR
          and Stalin himself is to blame for the fact that all of Europe attacked the USSR? Yes, the country has lost 27 million lives, but whose fault?

          Through his fault. Personally, as the sole dictator. So the country prepared, damn it. Little blood and on foreign territory, damn it.
          Rather than looking for "enemies" and shooting them in basements at night, it would be better if he was strengthening the country's defense capability. And then he was surrounded by gendarmes (NKVD) from all sides, and felt great.
          Quote: born_in_USSR
          over this ram horned

          The same end, in the same place, defective.
          Quote: born_in_USSR
          By your logic, it turns out that all victims of violence are to blame for themselves, there was nothing to resist.

          You do not attribute "my logic" to me. I'll figure it out with my own logic. I do not like the figures of the losses of the USSR. Strongly disliked. Clear? If you like or think they are small, then these are your problems.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  • King, just king
    King, just king 10 February 2016 14: 54
    0
    Vladimir (Mordvin 3) and Alexander (MahsusNazar)! I even misunderstood. You 3news explain who he is in life, but I do not observe his answers to your post about his populist Holland and I do not observe answers to yours. Strange ...
    1. npzh
      npzh 10 February 2016 15: 03
      +1
      It seems to me that Kiso was offended and involved a black list.
      I also do not see his posts.
      1. King, just king
        King, just king 10 February 2016 16: 18
        +1
        Coward, what a touchy. They did not even begin to press him seriously. Dutchman...
  • vnord
    vnord 10 February 2016 15: 05
    +3
    Quote: 3news
    Now I will ask, what prevented us from driving the “terrible Finnish army” away from this artery? They are not Germans. It means that she was not needed. This means that there were already enough floating crafts on Ladoga. In general, "whoever wants, seeks funds. Those who do not want, seeks reasons." The proverb is as follows.

    Read what forces and means crossed the Svir and knocked out the Finns in 1944. And you will understand everything.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 10 February 2016 17: 57
      +2
      Quote: vnord

      Read what forces and means crossed the Svir and knocked out the Finns in 1944. And you will understand everything.


      Across the front, they were looking for pre-war infantry tanks T-37A and T-38. And the defense broke through on the first day. Honor and glory!
  • Prutkov
    Prutkov 10 February 2016 15: 20
    0
    Quote: colonel
    Quote: Aleksandr72
    3news - are you anything about the blockade of Leningrad

    Alexander, in front of whom are you throwing pearls, don't you see that this (3news) is just a regular non-human being fed up in the same feeding trough as the shopping mall "Rain", with his question about the blockade?

    By the way about "Rain". It is not true that all Russian television channels are turned off in Ukraine. One lives very well in cable networks. Guess which one.
  • Vadim42
    Vadim42 10 February 2016 15: 25
    0
    I liked the monetary allowance, and many still hate Stalin.
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 10 February 2016 16: 18
    +6
    In 1941, in Leningrad, the population was about 3 million Food in the city was too little for such a number ... Yes, the leadership of the city, the region, the military command made many mistakes, both objective and biased ... which was ... that was what led to the well-known difficult situation. But a huge amount of work was done to remedy this situation ... The bread ration of 125 grams is by the end of 1941 ... By the end of winter 1942 at the expense of the organization " the roads of life "rations began to increase. By the second half of January 1942, in connection with the improved supply along the Ladoga Ice Road, there was a noticeable increase in food supplies. From January 24, 1942, Leningraders began to receive 400 g of bread for a work card, 300 g for employees and 250 g for a child's. On February 11, 1942, the third increase in food for the population was announced: workers and engineers - 500 g of bread (workers in hot shops - 700 g), office workers - 400 g, according to children's cards - 300 g. The norms of supply and other food products were also increased ... The dispensing rate of cereals and pasta has reached the level that was at the beginning of the introduction of the rationing system. Meat, butter, cranberries, dried onions began to be issued on the basis of ration cards, and although starvation continued to rage, the population breathed a sigh of relief. It became clear to everyone that the worst days were over. The Germans did not manage to break the fortitude and will of the city's defenders to resist, to defeat them by starvation. Here the "bird-talker" "3news" has already spoken about: and about the opposition of German artillery, aviation to the supply of the city; and about the lack of vehicles, and about the storm on Ladoga in the summer and much more .. But this person can be seen from that "category ", about which it is said: even though ssy in the eyes, everything is" God's dew "! What is his "reproach" for not organizing the supply of food "by air"! You might think that the Air Fleet of the USSR at that time had aircraft of the An-124 "Ruslan" type! There was no abundance of transport aircraft at that time! such that transport (and passenger as well) Li-2s had to be used as bombers. The remaining "transports" were badly needed by the front and they were in short supply! The Germans had superiority in aviation, and the defenders of Leningrad experienced an acute shortage of fighter aircraft ... And that's all. there were also cases when food was delivered to Leningrad by air.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 10 February 2016 18: 06
    0
    Enraged. do you hear SRINUS slaughter the slurp. or write your address. I’ll come and shut up over the weekend. only on command memorized slogans BLEAT know how. turn on your head. read the story. and more respect for those who are not.
    1. 3news
      3news 10 February 2016 18: 19
      -1
      Quote: garri-lin
      and more respect for those who are not.

      I just remember those who are not. And I remember their number.
      But the Bolsheviks did not remember. They did not remember the names of those who gave their lives for them. From this they did not even know the exact loss figures. They did not need it. What for?
      This is what it is, "Bolshevik gratitude".
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Kibl
    Kibl 10 February 2016 18: 26
    +1
    And most of all in the article I liked the ending, well, the one where about the group of machine gunners!
  • kvs207
    kvs207 10 February 2016 20: 20
    +1
    Depending on the situation at the front and in the rear soldering of prisoners in mid-1942 was reduced
    What kind of criminal jargon? There are - norms of contentment and there is - rations.
  • Alexey T. (Oper)
    Alexey T. (Oper) 10 February 2016 20: 49
    +1
    Quote: semirek
    and you didn’t think about how many millions of Soviet prisoners of war died, healthy, young men from a starfree during a month of stay turned into skeletons, and how many died of them from cold and illness - who survived, remained practically disabled, with chronic colds, ulcers stomach, etc.
    And what does Stalin have to do with it? Germany signed the Geneva Convention by which it was obliged to comply with internationally accepted rules for the treatment of prisoners of war, even if its opponent was not signing the Geneva Convention. And this is direct evidence of the crime committed by the Germans against Soviet prisoners of war.
    Quote: semirek
    Another aspect: among the front-line soldiers there was such a slogan - death from a stray bullet is better than captivity — it was captured by the enemy of the people, the family will be notified, they will be deprived of everything.
    There was no such slogan, no need to compose. not only fathers and grandfathers fought with you.
  • Lord blacwood
    Lord blacwood 10 February 2016 21: 23
    +1
    In fact, the German ace Erich Hartmann was not shot down by our anti-aircraft gunners, but surrendered to the Americans. But the Americans did not need him, and since he fought on the eastern front, he was transferred to the USSR. He was detained in the Shakhty, in a prisoner of war camp, raised a riot, for which he was given 20 extra years (before that they had already given 25 years). Hartmann was offered to serve in the GDR army, but he refused. Then, after the release of German soldiers and their sending to Germany, he was also sent home. And about Paulus, he was also given wine. By the way, they also released them to their homeland. Although, in a war, I would have been tougher with regard to prisoners, because our soldiers were treated much worse.
  • Scud
    Scud 10 February 2016 22: 28
    0
    By the way, you can read a book about Hartmann. Called-Best ace of the second world.