Archival documents about the exploits of 28 ...

But you know yourself: senseless mob
Changeable, rebellious, superstitious,
Easily empty hope betrayed,
To instant suggestion is obedient,
For the truth is deaf and indifferent,
And she feeds on fables.
(Boris Godunov. A.S. Pushkin)

Not so long ago, among the VO publications, there appeared material about Panfilov's heroes, the essence of which is that there are certain eyewitness accounts that these events confirm. However, no one argues with the fact that the division fought heroically. Another thing - the actual "feat 28"! They began to hotly discuss the topic, and some argued that any doubt in its reality was the machinations of the enemies of Russia, while others justly argued that it would be enough to be a rabble that feeds on fables coming down from above to make it easier to rule the people!

But remember the ancient philosophers. What did they say and warn about? Confucius said, for example: "Teaching without thinking is useless, but thinking without teaching is dangerous." What does it mean? Yes, very simple! What is the use of arguing on the basis of information from the “OBS Agency” (One woman said) or the DMS (One Man Nabolt), that is, on the basis of incomplete knowledge. How to check this "man" or this "woman"? That is, in order to speak out on the merits, you need to at least know him, and not at the level of a school textbook, but at the level of ... let's say - quite authoritative and deep, that is, at least read the original source: articles in the newspaper Red Star and Truth. However, this source also represents in this case a purely historiographic document, after all, this was written by a journalist, whom we must also believe in the word! But we believe, because it is understood that there are documents, numbers and facts behind the journalist’s words that you can go and check if you wish. That is, the documents stored where? In the archive! Moreover, the archive archive strife. There are local archives, where very often there is a lack of documents and there are central ones, where storage is delivered in a completely different way.

We have become fashionable to repeat the catchphrase phrase: “things in the studio,” which, however, is not bad at all. Because it indicates that people have become smarter and only one word is no longer trusted. As they say - "trust, but verify." That is, they need numbers of archival files, photocopies of documents - in a word, everything is as it should be! And I must say that such a test, even in the 1948 year, that is, in strict Stalin times, was taken up by the USSR Military Prosecutor’s Office. Reasons for checking information about the "feat 28" she had. Without reason (and serious!), Such a thing would not have started at that time.
Well, the result of its verification was a document that I would like to bring on the VO pages, moreover, in the form of photocopies, that is, as if they themselves were in one of the most important archives of the country and saw this business with their own eyes.

Well, the conclusion ... The conclusion is this: all the secret someday always becomes obvious. But the particular, albeit in something unsightly, does not negate the general, of which this private has always been more at times! In 1948, they still did not understand this, they believed that the “sweet lie” was nicer, more useful than the bitter truth, and thus laid the “information bomb” under our present time in a certain sense. Naturally, there were immediately the people who took advantage of this, using the demagogic method of generalization. Well, everyone came across this too: “All workers are drunkards!”, “All officials are thieves!”, “All teachers take bribes!” And so on, although, in theory, everyone should understand that this is impossible in principle. And just as it is necessary to understand that the truth about the “feat of 28” of the very feat of our people does not diminish at all and does not cancel, because this is just a particular that it would be completely wrong to generalize!

Comments

[Gunxnumx]

They say that even among the 12 apostles there was one Judas. What else do you add?

[Disant]

pages are not all. only "necessary"

[oracul]

What do you need? There is a conclusion and this is important. Or are you a professional reading between the lines?

[VOLOD]

no matter 28-30 the fact of the battle of the company with tanks outnumbering the company itself is evident. the feat of the fighters is also not disputed. The heroic defense of Moscow by Pavfilov's division is also beyond doubt. and according to this, the "truth-seekers" who are trying to humiliate the greatness of the heroes who have not spared their lives for their homeland would better cuddle.

[EvilLion]

This is what is called on the forehead, on the forehead. Yes, there was no battle between the company and the tanks, there was no battle of the whole division, as a result of which the accounts were recorded and the Germans were written off the tanks.

[CHILD]

t [quote = EvilLion] This is what is called on the forehead, on the forehead. Yes, there was no battle between a company and tanks, there was, there was a battle of a whole division, as a result of which they were recorded on the account, and the Germans were written off tanks. [/ Q .... you are interesting to be among the surviving 4 companies .... you they would say the same .... I didn’t know Panfilov’s by last name ... except for Klochkov ... and what does it change for me?! ... did my ancestors die by chance?! ... I don’t know exactly all the fallen in that war, but firmly convinced they were worthy people ... and the rest is now God the judge ...

[tokens3]

VOLOD

and according to this, the "truth-seekers" who are trying to humiliate the greatness of the heroes who have not spared their lives for their homeland would better cuddle.

There are no lackeys respected here. Did you learn from the censor?
I would replace "truth seekers" in your comments with "mine detectors".
It will be more true
Another fan of giving the Wehrmacht with sticks and grenades.
Mikhalkov forever

[dzeredzavkomimu]

I completely agree, let this remain a symbol of the heroism of all those who fell for their homeland

[regulation 10108]

What a difference, how many soldiers were in the company that got in the way of the enemy’s tanks at Dubosekov! The main thing is that Dubosekov’s 5th company fought to death with an overwhelmingly superior enemy, that almost all died, but did not miss the enemy and didn’t retreat, having fulfilled their military duty to the end, that they were Panfilov’s and defended Moscow and their whole country! And if in our memory this feat remained a feat of 28 Panfilov’s, then so be it! This feat is not just a feat of a certain number of soldiers who died, but did not miss the enemy, but it is a feat and sacrifice of all the defenders of Moscow in the unbearably difficult conditions of the first year of the war. And, in spite of everything, I will tell my grandchildren about the feat of 28, as about the feat of the whole nation and will undoubtedly lead them to a film that is shot about these heroes! For example, the myths of ancient Greece brought up more than one hundred years, but no one distorts them and does not get to the bottom of some truth. This is where the main question arises: AND WHO NEEDS THIS SO CALLED TRUE?

[Nikolay K]

Have you read the documents? 6 people died and the company retreated to new positions, for which the commander was temporarily suspended. The number of wrecked tanks is not reported at all. A completely ordinary battle, everything else is an artistic invention of journalists.

[pv1005]

Quote: Nikolai K

Have you read the documents? 6 people died and the company retreated to new positions, for which the commander was temporarily suspended. The number of wrecked tanks is not reported at all. A completely ordinary battle, everything else is an artistic invention of journalists.

It is a pity that Bruce Lee was born after WWII, otherwise he would have captured Omaha's landing zone in one hat and saved all ordinary Ryan. And this would not be the invention of journalists.
PS Do you hear yourself? Six soldiers died only in this battle, so that you would live now, and not wave the Kyle in a quarry for a piece of bread (and this is at best).

[Nikolay K]

Do you hear yourself? Surrendered to a prisoner at the intersection Dubosekovo and became a policeman is given the title of hero of the Soviet Union with the fantasies of some journalist. Is this not a spit on the real heroes of the great war, who perished unknowingly, defending their homeland?

[pv1005]

Quote: Nikolai K

Do you hear yourself? Surrendered to a prisoner at the intersection Dubosekovo and became a policeman is given the title of hero of the Soviet Union with the fantasies of some journalist. Is this not a spit on the real heroes of the great war, who perished unknowingly, defending their homeland?

And where does the traitor? There is a special conversation with traitors, the execution is called. Here a man is touched that only six died, and not like 28, and on this basis dismisses the very feat of the defenders of the Motherland. Something like this.
And it is not necessary in the conversation about the event itself, to wedge the clinging traitors.

[Nikolay K]

Apparently, you also like to conjecture and fantasize like those same journalists. Have you read the documents? Or, as usual, I didn’t read it, but I condemn it. Where do I cancel the feat of the defenders of the fatherland? I said that it was a fairly ordinary battle, which at that time and later went on thousands. They fought millions of our heroes. But thanks to the invention of journalists, fighters of one unit, all indiscriminately, including even traitors, were declared heroes. For me, it’s foolish to worship a fictitious feat when there were a huge number of REAL heroes in the war.

[pv1005]

Quote: Nikolai K

Apparently, you also like to conjecture and fantasize like those same journalists. Have you read the documents? Or, as usual, I didn’t read it, but I condemn it. Where do I cancel the feat of the defenders of the fatherland? I said that it was a fairly ordinary battle, which at that time and later went on thousands. They fought millions of our heroes. But thanks to the invention of journalists, fighters of one unit, all indiscriminately, including even traitors, were declared heroes. For me, it’s foolish to worship a fictitious feat when there were a huge number of REAL heroes in the war.

Where do you cancel the feat, yes here:

Quote: Nikolai K

Killed 6 people and the company retreated to new positions, for which the commander was temporarily suspended. The number of wrecked tanks is not reported at all. Absolutely ordinary battle

For some, this was the first and last fight in his life, but this is not a feat, just one fight.

Quote: Nikolai K

I said that it was a fairly ordinary battle, which at that time and later went on thousands.

A battle cannot be ordinary or not, it happens that they kill, and death is always not an ordinary event (at least for the relatives of the deceased).

Quote: Nikolai K

For me, it’s foolish to worship a fictitious feat when there were a huge number of REAL heroes in the war.

And with what and to whom did this "fictional" feat harm?

Quote: Nikolai K

when the war was a huge number of REAL heroes.

That is, from your point of view, these dead are not real heroes ??? Well then there’s nothing more to talk about.

[poquello]

Quote: pv1005

And with what and to whom did this "fictional" feat harm?

The USSR damaged my homeland and contributed to the collapse of a powerful country. It was that drop that, among many, sharpened faith in the country's leadership.

[pv1005]

Quote: Nikolai K

But thanks to the invention of journalists, fighters of one unit, all indiscriminately, including even traitors, were declared heroes.

The commander of the 2nd shock army, General Vlasov, went over to the side of the enemy, according to your logic, all those awarded in the 2nd UA should be deprived of their awards, just as the commander is a traitor. However, despite this shameful fact in the Combat History of the Army, she continued OWN (separate from the traitor) the valiant Combat Path to victory in 1945. So, if someone got involved in the heroes, it was calculated, put out in the open, and eventually got what he deserved. And the rewarding of this **** in no way can serve as an occasion to denigrate and diminish the merits of the others.

[Nikolay K]

Once again I ask, have you read the documents? Some journalist, without even bothering to come to the battlefield, or at least in part, writes an article about the exploit of 28 heroes. The article was a complete fiction. Later, due to the fact that the article was highly resonant, they prepared lists of 28 heroes for awarding, even without really understanding and including the names of several fighters who surrendered. The described battle was neither 28 Panfilov’s nor a whole company. There was an article in a red star, later dressed in the form of a work of art. And to give credibility, prepared award lists.

[severniy]

Have you read the documents? Killed 6 people

Quote: Nikolai K

Apparently, you also like to conjecture and fantasize like those same journalists. Have you read the documents? Or, as usual, I didn’t read it, but I condemn it. Where do I cancel the feat of the defenders of the fatherland? I said that it was a fairly ordinary battle, which at that time and later went on thousands. They fought millions of our heroes. But thanks to the invention of journalists, fighters of one unit, all indiscriminately, including even traitors, were declared heroes. For me, it’s foolish to worship a fictitious feat when there were a huge number of REAL heroes in the war.

maybe you didn’t read everything ??? what is the stub of an ordinary battle? and what are 6 fighters? !!!!

[Nikolay K]

Actually, the article originally wrote about the battle of the 5 company. Then came the 4 company. The testimony you provided was given by the regiment commander Koprov. But the senior battalion commissar Minin writes that the regiment, under pressure from superior enemy forces, suffered heavy losses and retreated to new positions, for which this very Koprov regiment was temporarily removed from office. Nothing was heard about the battle of the 28 Guards then and this was the fiction of a journalist. At the battlefield, 6 bodies of the dead were found, including political instructor Klochkov.

[mervino2007]

Quote: Nikolai K

become a policeman give the title of hero

A huge overstrain near Moscow in November of the 41st. The fighters, by chance, who fell into the zone of this collision, behaved differently. They were different in physical strength, endurance, and moral condition. The vast majority of them fought a deadly battle with the enemy. Some of these fighters died, some survived. They are all heroes. Because they fought with the enemy, realizing that they were participating in a decisive battle for life. The overwhelming minority, of those who fell into this mess, tried to save their lives, although EVERYONE wanted to live. Part surrendered, part died. It can be assumed that someone deserted, although I did not hear about such cases. How to evaluate all this? In any life situation of such a high intensity, there are STRONG and weak spirit. In general, the ratio of those and others showed the result of the battle of Moscow. Ours won the battle, defeated the Germans. Strong in spirit turned out to be much more. Weak - cowards, obvious traitors, broken, weakened to exhaustion fighters, much less. This is the main result. And it doesn’t matter what the company name was - the fourth or fifth, how many fighters it specifically was - 28 or a hundred, the fact is important - at the cost of inhuman efforts, at the cost of their lives, enemy tanks were stopped at this section of the clashes. The same thing happened in all other sectors of the front, despite the superiority of the enemy in technology. It can be assumed that, in establishing the facts - who is the hero and who is the traitor - there were mistakes. But these, we know for sure, were rare cases. No need to make an elephant out of a fly. Over time - everything secret becomes apparent. And you need to protect your heroes from the stupid, and sometimes deliberate interpretation of known facts upstarts-gorlopans.

[pv1005]

Quote: pv1005

Quote: Nikolai K

Have you read the documents? 6 people died and the company retreated to new positions, for which the commander was temporarily suspended. The number of wrecked tanks is not reported at all. A completely ordinary battle, everything else is an artistic invention of journalists.

It is a pity that Bruce Lee was born after WWII, otherwise he would have captured Omaha's landing zone in one hat and saved all ordinary Ryan. And this would not be the invention of journalists.
PS Do you hear yourself? Six soldiers died only in this battle, so that you would live now, and not wave the Kyle in a quarry for a piece of bread (and this is at best).

All the same, Bruce Willis was originally meant, not Bruce Lee. Tupanul Maltsa.

[BMP-2]

Again twenty-five.
1) Since when photographed funny pictures are proof of something?
2) Where is the evidence that the source data is reliable? The specified scribble does not answer the question of who stopped the tanks. But the tanks, indeed, did not pass to Moscow. And it is a FACT!

[Disant]

penultimate page: regiment commander Kaprov: "4th company fought heroically, more than 100 people were killed from the company"
In the rifle company of 1941, the total number of staff in the state is 178 people.
the remaining third of the surviving regiment moved to new frontiers. Nikolai K - what else is there to prove?
and, probably, to explain the difference between ordinary combat and non-ordinary combat? in the extraordinary of 178 Panfilov’s, everyone would have laid down.

[Nikolay K]

This kompolka itself supported artistic fiction with pleasure, probably also wanted to curry favor. True, when the military prosecutor's office began to check how traitors were on the lists of heroes, he blamed everything on the deceased commander of the 4 company. In fact, according to official reports for THREE days of battles, the WHOLE 1075 Regiment knocked out the 4 tank.

[orthodox71]

What does it change, did the Germans capture the capital? So in another place they did not retreat. And there were always referring correspondents who were afraid to see with their own eyes. From this, the real picture does not change. Well: big seen in the distance

[Maiman]

but the tanks did not pass

[Stas57]

Quote: regul10108

AND WHO NEEDS THIS SO CALLED TRUE?

To me,
I’ll tell the story of sappers,
The defense of the central, most responsible site was entrusted to a platoon of sappers under the command of junior lieutenant Pyotr Firstov. With him was a junior political instructor Aleksey Pavlov and an assistant platoon commander Aleksey Zubkov. In addition to them, there were eight sappers in the group: Pavel Sinegovsky, Gleb Ulchenko (he was seriously wounded, he was saved by local residents. He died in the 1943 year), Vasily Semenov, Prokofiy Kalyuzhny, Erofei Dovzhuk, Vasily Manyushin, Petr Genievsky and Sergeant Daniil Materkin [3 ]. On November 18 on November 1941, at about 10 in the morning, the enemy troops began a breakthrough in the direction of the Firstov group’s defense position. For five hours, sappers managed to restrain the enemy, despite its numerical superiority and support for tanks. “Hero-sappers all fell to one in this battle, but for five hours delayed the advancement of the enemy! Exactly as much as it took the 1077 rifle regiment to retreat and secure at a new frontier, ”wrote V. I. Markov [316], chief of artillery of the 4 division, later in his memoirs.


Then I will tell you how the "heroic first guards" escaped, barely wearing everything, leaving Panfilov's infantry to die alone.

Then I will tell how this same division pushed the enemy, sparing no one.

And about 28, I’ll say that yes, it was necessary to raise our spirits at this difficult moment, but now we all know about heroes and traitors. And who really defended Moscow.
That's what I’ll say, and there will be no disaster.

[Disant]

I am waiting for your answer to the fudge above

[pv1005]

Quote: Disant

I am waiting for your answer to the fudge above

Unfortunately (or maybe vice versa) there will be no answer. This is a standard govnovbros. they threw you and you are also to blame, and they gentlemen should take their word for it.

[Stas57]

I already answered below, more than 100 people died, 4 tanks were destroyed.
There are nothing about any 20 tanks / 28 panfilovtsev.
1075 itself was supported by tanks and artillery, there are reports of various levels (regimental, division) and not a word about the 20 tanks and 28 Panfilov’s there is not a word, the Germans have the same silence.

Ps
What do you think this is about?
On the table was the number of the magazine, where an essay about Panfilov’s, about the soldiers of the same regiment commanded by Baurjan Momysh-Ula, was printed.
He sharply pushed the magazine to the lamp — all his movements were sharp, even when he threw a match, lit a cigarette — flipped over, bent over the open page and dropped it.
- I can’t read! He said. - In the war I read a book written not in ink but in blood. After such a book, compositions are unbearable to me. What can you write?
I tried to argue, but Baurjan Momysh-Ula was adamant.
- Not! He snapped. “I hate lying, and you will not write the truth.”
(c) Beck A.A. Volokolamsk highway.

Pps
Nothing to say.
Again, the circumstances of the feat of the USSR Chief Military Prosecutor's Office was engaged in 1988, as a result of which the chief military prosecutor, Lieutenant-General of Justice A. F. Katusev published in the Military History Journal (1990, No. 8-9) the article “Alien Glory”. In it, he concluded that “The massive feat of the entire company, the entire regiment, the entire division by the irresponsibility of not entirely conscientious journalists was downplayed to the scale of a mythical platoon”

[Max_Bauder]

As recently in Dmitry Puchkov's "Goblin" program, military historian Klim Zhukov said that the site of the Kulikovo battle was found, and it was confirmed that the battle took place, it also turned out that there were few troops on both sides, but the Russians competently won the battle against Mamai. Archeologist and historian Oleg Dvurechensky, a friend of Zhukov, described all this, armor, the course of the battle, artifacts well in his book. So, if myths and legends exist among the people, they are not taken from the sick fantasy of the head of an individual person, but have real historical roots, albeit quite exaggerated.

[Alekseev]

Quote: regul10108

Who cares how many warriors were in the company,

Quote: regul10108

WHO NEEDS THIS SO CALLED TRUE?

That way you can walk a lot ...
Scribes do not need to give free rein (and special faith).
He, this correspondent of the Red Star, is not a feat of gene warriors. Panfilov glorified, and built his career under a plausible pretext. And the truth came out and served the enemies of Russia in their propaganda after decades.
Here recently a similar babble was published in an article about the Marine Corps.
PS
And all else else
Do not live for sure -
Without which? Without the truth
Truth right into the beating soul
If it were thicker
No matter how bitter.

[orthodox71]

No one has ever seen or identified Eupath Kolovrat, but he lives bylina.
My grandfather disappeared near Moscow and he was in the very Far Eastern and Siberian divisions that grind the Germans. The grandfather’s feat cannot be retouched, but it’s worthless for us to delve into the little things. It is necessary to honor and it doesn’t matter where it was, under Dubosekovo or elsewhere. One way or another, and the outcome of the war is known, and it was achieved, including the lives of the fallen near Moscow.

Happy New Year everyone!

[Kaiten]

Quote: orthodox71

My grandfather disappeared near Moscow and he was in the very Far Eastern and Siberian divisions that grind the Germans. The grandfather’s feat cannot be retouched, but it’s worthless for us to delve into the little things.

Gozhe, Gozhe delve into the little things. My grandfather also fought near Moscow as part of the Moscow militia and survived with a grave wound by a miracle. It is necessary to understand whose memory to honor. The real heroes who still lie in the unknown graves or policemen included in the award lists. Understand this.

[Fitter65]

Both the fiery ram of Nikolai Gastello and the nine downed planes by A. Gorovets are myths and legends of the war in which both A. Gorvets and the crew of the DB-3f bomber under the command of Nikolai Gastello died. They died defending their MOTHERLAND, let them the death was actually not as "beautiful" as the correspondents said, but they went to destroy the enemy without thinking about whether they would die beautifully or not, the main thing for them was PROTECTION OF THEIR COUNTRY. And as one journalist said, even if there was no ramming, it was a feat ... Thanks to all those living now, and to those who went into immortality and remained forever young. Thanks to them for what I can say today - "HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!!!

[semirek]

BUT someone stopped these tanks, not these, so the other 28 heroes. In the war, no one wondered if my exploits would go down in history and if I would receive a reward - this was not a life but death war. Panfilov’s division, two of these Panfilov’s heroes lived in our town. After Kazakhstan gained independence, it seemed that the theme of the Second World War would come to naught there, but to the surprise, it was expanding and uniting our peoples, because Kazakhs fought shoulder to shoulder with the Russians our united Motherland - the Soviet Union! Glory to the Panfilov fellow countrymen!

[parusnik]

"If you remove all lies from history, it does not mean at all that only truth will remain - as a result, nothing may remain at all." Stanislav Jerzy Lec.

[Timyr]

Well, another refutation. Refute then the myth of the 300th Spartans. There were not 300 of them, but 5000 and not only the Spartans remained dying, but they remember and write about 300 Spartans.

[brasist]

Even if it’s a little embellished, but they broke the ridge to the Nazis and when they found out about the heroic deeds of the heroes, they took an example from them and after that there were quite a few Marosovs, Panfilovites, Gastello. And Judas and other scum at all times lacked at least the fifth column, choose at least anyone.

[brasist]

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

[Boris55]

A spoon of tar spoils a barrel of honey
Life is diverse and diverse. It all depends on which side to look at a particular event and how to present it. Who concentrates on what. Some, except for small traitors, do not see the feat of the others, which contribute to the appearance of betrayal in the future. Others - to the immortal feat of the majority, which contribute to the preservation of our country in time. Do you need to know about the traitors and how they ended their lives - it is necessary, but do not focus on them, do not dig the grave of your country.

All a Happy!

[Reptiloid]

The USSR won the Victory! In this Victory the feat of the Heroes-Panfilov forever!
. Like other readers, I don’t know, but I think that anyone who wanted to cheat immediately figured out how to do it. Enemies and traitors always behaved this way at all times.
It is good that the author took photographs of the documents.

[V.ic]

Herostratus, too, plunged himself into history, as did his modern followers from among the crap, preoccupied with "sculpting" history from their own "dung".

[Mareman Vasilich]

Another digger was found. They got tired, worse than the bitter radish, with the mind of juvenile deb.i.lov.

[Silhouette]

True - it is sometimes worse than a bitter radish. But she is the truth. And everything else is from another opera. Myths are needed. But they do not cancel the truth. Real heroes remain nameless, and monuments are put up to invented ones. Front-line soldiers did not always believe in official heroes. They didn’t want to hear about Matrosov, but about those who were tied up with grenades and threw themselves under German tanks, they only waved away their hand, they didn’t even find words with the children.

[semirek]

And what truth do we need and for what? Yes, I agree, there was order 227, there were also foreign detachments, but there was also a feat of a simple Soviet (not necessarily Russian) soldier, lieutenant, general. Sometimes the feat consists in throwing a bunch of grenades, at the cost of life under the tracks of a German tank --- watch the film again "aty bats went soldiers", and sometimes deep in the rear, at the cost of the lives of five girls who stopped the superior German special forces ("the dawns here are quiet") and these are not fictional fictions - the writers were just lieutenants at that time. feat of General Karbyshev? All this is the tip of the iceberg, which is called: the feat of a Russian soldier in the name of victory, and how many forgotten feats, unknowns, which we will never know. By the way, for several years a film about 28 Panfilovites has been filmed, an unknown director, without any budget, for donations --is not it a feat, in our time, to talk about the heroic past.
Eternal memory to the fallen heroes!

[alstr]

And then there is the film "Silence" with the song "At Nameless Height" with a similar plot for 28 Panfilovites. Moreover, this film is based on a real (with a documented battle). Only there was this fight in September 43. And if it were not for Article 28 of Panfilov's men, there might not have been this fight and many others alike.

How many such fights were
"Near an unfamiliar village,
At an unnamed height. "?

[pv1005]

The feat is accomplished in a short (often very short) period of time, and during this period of time a person has no time to think about how to properly document his actions. He said beautifully or not, whether he fell right or not, and what they will say later, good or bad, or maybe it was not worth risking your life for the sake of some unknown person. About this then journalist girls begin to "think" and those who a priori are not ready for a feat, but to trample in the mud the honest name of the hero (if known) is always welcome.

[YakimovSS]

Yes, even fiction, but how many people were inspired by this fiction?
And what did those who shout about this fiction do for Russia?

[surrozh]

Many knowledge - many sorrows. Well, historians would know about 28 Panfilov’s, and they would know for ourselves, we have other knowledge, and with this knowledge the heroes were brought up, why raise this dregs.

[pv1005]

Quote: surozh

Many knowledge - many sorrows. Well, historians would know about 28 Panfilov’s, and they would know for ourselves, we have other knowledge, and with this knowledge the heroes were brought up, why raise this dregs.

Well, you don’t understand. These "cream" of humanity open your eyes, they tell the true truth. After all, you live in darkness with your "wrong" knowledge, and they lead you to the "light", STSUKI.

[GRAY]

Quote: surozh

why raise this dregs.

They lay the seed of doubt so that later it would be easier to denigrate all the victories of the Soviet people in general and at the same time repaint Comrade Stalin as unambiguous Satan.
Then they will slowly begin to suggest that the USA and the Allies won the war, and the Soviet government committed only crimes and the citizens of the Russian Federation should be ashamed of it.
Therefore, these citizens should fall into the legs of the Great Western World-conqueror and repent, repent, repent ...

[Stas57]

What again, and on the new year?
Well, I’ve already discussed a thousand times.
The feat of division is undeniable, they fought, by the standards of 41, well, a lot of interesting tricks.
The story about 28 is muddy, most likely this is a plexus of the real feat of sappers (Monument to 11 heroes of sappers “Explosion” - a monument in honor of the feat of 11 heroes of sappers of the 8 Guards Rifle Division, General I.V. Panfilovhttps: //ru.wikipedia.org / wiki / Explosion_ (monument)) and retelling.
The story itself is not indicated anywhere, and nowhere in the documents of the Germans does it pass here.
Believe it or not

[dorward]

My children also know about the exploit of the Panfilovites. And I hope their children will know. It's not a few people. The matter is the feat of our multinational people. How many feats accomplished disinterestedly by a Soviet person, we will never know. Our ancestors really fought like that, on every corner of the front and in the rear. 14-year-old children worked at the cartridge factories to help fathers, who lay down a bunch of grenades under the tanks. What are we talking about here? About the episode? There are millions of them, heroic episodes of the war, From which we will choose?

Happy New Year to all visitors and administrators! Protect the memory of victory, dignity and honor!

[Maksim]

For me and my children, there were and are 28 Panfilovites and the Lehingrad Zoo in the bolokada, and my Grandfather, who was wounded at the Kursk Bulge, and the Grandfather of my wife, who reached Vienna. I know that in that war there were such feats that “fictional fiction” cannot describe.
All members of the forum Happy New Year!

[Reptiloid]

Article about the Leningrad Zoo 14.My poems to the article from 10. "What did the children play after the war." I hope you enjoy it.

[Cap.Morgan]

Sovinformburo destroyed a hundred times more tanks than was released by the Germans.
Of course, if there were massive heroism of the whole nation, the Germans would never have reached Moscow. There were serious miscalculations from the high command.
But it was necessary to raise the spirit of the people, and different stories were invented, because the situation at the front was difficult. There were no troops to cover the main areas.
The question is not whether there was a feat or not.
There were many feats of unknown heroes who were not included in any encyclopedia about the war. So now there is no difference, well, not these made a feat, because there were others. Not everywhere was a camera and a correspondent at hand. The main thing is that we defended our state.

[Noisy]

The regiment commander practiced "running in tanks". A standard exercise - he lay down in a trench - drove the tank stood up, turned around - threw a grenade into the engine compartment. So, we didn't have tanks, we had BTR-80s. And although I knew that Vovka, the commander of the security platoon, was sitting behind the wheel of this papelaz and he was a recognized master of driving this piece of iron in the district, but I never experienced such fear. Even when he went out into the sky from a normally flying vehicle in low clouds. I'm afraid to even think if there was a tank there, and a man was sitting behind the levers, with every fiber of his soul wishing to rub me into the frozen ground with his tracks. Eternal memory to the heroes!

[Megatron]

Yeah, only the Germans often didn’t drive through the trenches just like that, but turned on them, ironed them with caterpillars trying to grind our soldiers.

[Stas57]

Quote: Megatron

Yeah, only the Germans often didn’t drive through the trenches just like that, but turned on them, ironed them with caterpillars trying to grind our soldiers.

this is nonsense for the movie
no tanker will rotate the tank, substituting side armor under the PTO

[Megatron]

I personally read in books about the war, memoirs and more than once.

[Stas57]

Quote: Megatron

I personally read in books about the war, memoirs and more than once.

a memoir, this is not an instruction, not a charter, not a recommendation, but a hudlite about "how I showed everyone."

[okroshka79]

The truth about the events of those days is very well described in the book by Alexander Bek "Volokolamsk highway". There is no fiction in it, because it was written under the dictation of the commander of the Panfilov battalion, Hero of the Soviet Union, Baurdzhan Momysh-uly. I strongly advise those who have not read this book to read it. A very powerful book! It is said to have been used as a teaching aid in British military institutions. Happy New Year to all members of the forum, with best wishes!

[Cap.Morgan]

A more powerful book "In the trenches of Stalingrad" by Nekrasov.

[V.ic]

Quote: Cap.Morgan

A more powerful book "In the trenches of Stalingrad" by Nekrasov.

Strength, strength, strength, strength ... He had strength when his mother wore it! Why did this God's servant, skinned, jump to your British brothers?

[V.ic]

Quote: okroshka79

I strongly advise those who have not read this book, be sure to read

Read. Hard. Sometimes it's a shame, but right. A. Bek "Volokolamsk highway". Our army at that moment was learning to counter the "Wehrmacht machine". It must be remembered that Panfilov's division was, in essence, a formation of OPOLCHENTS / not personnel.

[Colonel]

I would like to answer both the author of the article and his "accomplices" in my own words, but I will not do this better than the Goblin. Hear lovers of truth to the end.

[tokens3]

Unfortunately, it was not possible to successfully "attach" the goblin to the interview
Anti-tank flying mine of LMГ
as a New Year's surprise.
What is known about I.P. Galitsky? The creator of the "mine"?
Major General of the Engineering Troops I.P. Galitsky, who in October 1941 near Moscow commanded the operational-engineering group of obstacles.
So ... the journalists are not to blame. They covered, so to speak, with a "legend" a fairly effective way of fighting tanks. So they say and so: they threw grenades at everyone at the hero.
BUT! So many years have passed!
How much journalistic legends can be made on this legend!
When you hear about the Americans landing on the moon, humble yourself. Eat a bagel. Myths must be trusted.
When you read about the outstanding exploits of the pilots and tankers of the Third Reich, calm down. Do not panic. Get in the internet 28 Panfilovites. It will become easier for you.
It's a shame gentlemen. It's just a shame. To fool people with Hollywood stories.
Not our it. Not Russian. Alien.
All the year 2016! A year that will open people's eyes to much. But as they say ...
that's another story.

[Leader]

And it all began, as usual, with the invention of a journalist, eagerly picked up and carried by the political department ... All the initiators were not at the front line and were not close, the rats were rear!
I do not need such myths; let's get the truth!
Millions of Soviet people fought (and both of my grandfathers), daily committing their personal exploits - and all fifty of the same stories tell me all their lives; each of which, as it turns out, is a fiction to one degree or another ...
Do not lie! - there will be no reasons for further "sensational disclosures" and "journalistic investigations".
There is no need to tell tales about "28 Panfilov's men" again - tell us about the heavy and bloody battles of the whole regiment, division, army!
Minus me, you are continuing the rotten case of "Krivitsky and Co.", creating a lie about the war!
Therefore, there is still no "History of the Second World War" in Russia! For 70 years - only mountains of waste paper, regularly rewritten again ...

[Disant]

leader, you forgive me, but the post of Mareman Vasilich (above) with respect to the article under discussion is about you.

[Silhouette]

And about you it is written in the epigraph of this article.

[Disant]

the epigraph itself to this article is a provocation, just like the article itself
silhouette, thanks for the epigraph. I will continue to eat fables and remain deaf to the oblique facts from this article. All the same, Mareman Vasilyevich correctly said. I would even add the word -belligerent

[Silhouette]

Sergei Vasilievich, just like you, does not understand the difference between natural historical myth-making and propaganda.

[V.ic]

Quote: Leader

I do not need such myths; let's get the truth!

"Welcom" "oops" new year, yellow shoes! "Where have you been, where have you spent the night, with whom have you whiled away the night?" To smack such "lovers of truth" with reins = hand will be taken away. Ask your "owners" ::: why in a year and a half Rudolf Hess will be 30 (THIRTY) years of "suicide" and almost 75 years (after 4 months) of his flight to GB, and archival documents, despite the expiration of all English secrecy terms not published yet?

Quote: Leader

Minus me, you are continuing the rotten case of "Krivitsky and Co.", creating a lie about the war!
Therefore, there is still no "History of the Second World War" in Russia! For 70 years - only mountains of waste paper, regularly rewritten again ...

Read my passage about R. Hess and publish your answer in this thread. I will not accept it as a “personal”, because scoundrels must be taught with their own instrument.

[okroshka79]

The history of the Great Patriotic War was published, in my opinion, in 6 volumes by the Academy of the General Staff around 1953. But it was classified as classified. I managed to look through it a little in due time. Very interesting! And it certainly did not correspond to the fictions of journalists.

[Reptiloid]

May everyone have a rich table, fun, loved ones nearby to meet Novgorod of the year! Peace, kindness, joy!
According to the article ----- To love their Motherland as they love their mother --- and young, smart, beautiful, rich and old, stooped, forgetting everything, stolen, deceived, Always support. Always respect and never speak discredit yourself facts that would boast of their knowledge to the detriment of the memory of the dead, of departed Scientific articles should always be unemotional, as in this article.
But the hard truth must be known in advance, to be able to refute the answer, to know. Otherwise, the enemies will recognize, extract, remake and will joyfully mock.
Of course, it would be nice to know about their enemies in advance and be able to speak on this topic.
Perhaps the Author will help you with this! Happy New Year, Vyacheslav Olegovich! And my egoistic dream is if your books were published in the publishing house "Nestor - History" I often visit this street. It would be convenient for me. Joke!

[Jozhkin Cat]

it was clear to the hedgehog that there weren’t 28 of them there. However, Moscow was not taken, and the war ended in Berlin. And the film will be shot according to the army legend, and this is our right, the right of the victorious people!
Happy new year comrades.

[V.ic]

Quote: Yozhkin Cat

Happy new year comrades

Answer: 100 grams of "combat" for you, for us and for the special forces, for the health of the wounded, for the freedom of prisoners, for beautiful women and for us MILITARY! Hello Yoshkar-Ola! To the dregs! Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!....

[chenia]

Quote: Leader

And it all began, as usual, with the invention of a journalist, eagerly caught up and carried by the political department ...

It is better to remain silent and look like an idiot, than to blab something and dispel all doubts.

Straighten your head, why suddenly a very large political department and ideological department of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (Zhdanov) destroys such a legend. Because of Dobrobabin? And who then could hear about him?
The impulse of truthfulness (in this way one can call into question the truth of the SHORT COURSE of the history of the CPSU) or something else.
When you understand. Understand the nature of the appearance of the above documents.

And Klochkov was the commander of the platoon of the 2nd battalion platoon (a freelance team of tank destroyers).
Before the hype, he was already twice an order bearer (two orders of the BKZ) for a month of fighting (second order, order 044, Jan 17, 1942). In this order there are no awards yet for any scribbler. But the commander’s award probably reflects the unit’s feat.

There was no battle. you first understand the definitions - the offensive zone, the breakthrough site, the demonstration offensive, and you will understand a lot.

Quote: Leader

I do not need such myths; let's get the truth!

Are you sure you want to know the truth?

[gusev_sa]

The position of the editors of this supposedly "patriotic" site is surprising.
After all, Shpakovsky is a famous scaffold and grantosos. Nevertheless, he is given the opportunity to our country.

Earlier, citizen Volodin blamed the liberals Latynina and others. They are not allowed to win, but Shpakovsky can go. He is his own.
The Russians are now sitting in shit because these Shppakovsky, Volodins have the opportunity to go unpunished on us.

[chenia]

Quote: chenia

There was no battle. you first understand the definitions - the offensive zone, the breakthrough site, the demonstration offensive, and you will understand a lot.

I read and was horrified, forgot to put a question mark.

So you should read
- There was no battle? It was. This anti-aircraft platoon held the defense at the breakthrough site - the left flank of the division junction, the stronghold of the 4th company. And the fact that the whole regiment fought, you need to understand the definitions - the offensive zone, the breakthrough area, the demonstration offensive, and you will understand a lot.

[fa2998]

Quote: VOLOD

those who are trying to humiliate the greatness of the heroic deed of heroes who have not spared their lives for their homeland are better off stumbling.

Nobody wants to humiliate the greatness of the feat, just true heroes were either crossed out, or the rank of the award was lowered, something impudent with the authorities, then not a Komsomol member, then "politically not savvy" - there are many such cases. There are many heroes, and their deeds are GREAT. one political instructor told the other, the third and that to the correspondent, in the deep rear. The rest was finished by the editor in Moscow. Not the number of fighters, not the details of the battle, even the surname list of the dead is far from the truth. They wrote who they remembered and ran into, the dead, even some They served the Germans. Do we need such a story ?! We don't need invented legends, and there are enough normal heroes!

[Ivan Tartugai]

The posted photos of the document do not inspire confidence in the following:
1. The document is drawn carelessly. We will not even consider such a document of the NOD (head of the road department), the head of the distance can and will take it into consideration, but will at least force him to sign in the places of corrections and indicate the position submitting the document, what, they say, is a note from the master of the path G. ?. Safonov.
This is the same document sent to the Secretary of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (Bolsheviks), and not to the head of the railway distance, moreover, the document is of special importance and is completely secret, and such careless design is unacceptable;
2. The date of submission of the document is strangely indicated, so “8” is printed, probably the eighth year, and “4”, you see the forties, is written by hand. Usually, the years on the documents are printed in full, namely 1948. Well, if the author of the document wanted to shorten it, he would type “48”, or if he decided to shorten it even more, he would type “4”, no matter how “8”, and then add a four by hand.
3. It is difficult to make out the handwriting of the performer, it is not clear the document dated June 11 or July 11. Such handwriting does not fill out such documents. In the expedition or the office where the document is registered, workers with good handwriting usually sit. Even in small offices and organizations in which letters are not written or sent to the secretaries of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, and they will find a person with legible handwriting.
4. The name and patronymic of the correspondent of the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper Koroteev should be indicated, and only the surname should be indicated. Similarly, to the person of the literary secretary of the newspaper "Red Star" Krivitsky.
5. A strange secrecy for a document that goes under the heading "Top Secret", namely, the regiment in which 28 Panfilov's men from the 5th company served is listed as "N-sky regiment". It seems that someone G. Safonov decided to keep the regiment number secret even from the secretary of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, Zhdanov AA.
In the document, which goes under the heading "Top Secret", the numbers of military units are indicated without any additional secrets. This method of secrecy is used mainly for the media - newspapers, magazines, radio;
6. A strange correction was made on page 3, namely, the fifth company in which Kuzhabergenov served was crossed out. And it is written that Kuzhabergenov Askar (he is Daniil) does not appear in the lists of the 4th company, so he should have been listed in the lists of the 4th company, since he served in the 5th company.
It seems that the document that is presented in the article is another falsification in order to defame the feat of 28 Panfilov heroes.

[Koshak]

Good, detailed analysis. Everything is logical.

[Pomeranian]

Brilliantly written.

[Timyr]

Yes, just the descendants of the Nazis and their accomplices, our victory does not give rest. Everyone wants war revisions. By the way, Dobrobabin all his life regretted that he went to serve the Germans

[colonel manuch]

Eternal glory to the Heroes! Why does no one stop the archival rat, brazenly lying to the Panfilov heroes?

[chenia]

Quote: fa2998

.And here one political instructor told the other, the third one and that correspondent, in the deep rear. The editor in Moscow added the rest. Not the number of fighters, not the details of the battle, even the surname list of the dead is far from the truth.

And your analytical skills are fucked up,
here the rule works again

Quote: chenia

It is better to remain silent and look like an idiot, than to blab something and dispel all doubts.

Gundilovich gave data on the heroes to Krivitsky (both Kaprov and the rest confirm the heroism of the 4th company).
And Gundilovich, in any case, would single out the most worthy ones, and Klochkov at that moment had long been on the list of awarded (for the Order of the BKZ).

Koroteyev’s article didn’t oblige anything at all, and in the political department of the division Krivitsky could substitute the fight of lt Ugryumy and political instructor Georgiev (who covered the retreat of the division’s headquarters and were noted by Panfilov himself (see Beck's book).

But for some reason sent to 1075 sp.
Klochkov (his unit) in the first battle was stopped by 15 tanks (5 were knocked out, which Kaprov confirms).

It was this information (combat report) that reached the command of the division, and here Klochkov and his team appear.

After the second battle, there were no reports. And from the first battle to the second, 4-5 hours passed (that's where they kept the defense for -4 hours).

[Ivan Tartugai]

On page 2 of a document from G.?. Safonov, probably this is from the USSR Prosecutor General G. N. Safonov, printed:
“The essay by Koroteyev’s correspondent described the heroic battles of the guardsmen of the division named after Panfilov’s tanks with the enemy, in particular, reported the battle of the 5th company of the N-th regiment under the command of political instructor Diev ... "
The following is printed on page 3:
“However, Askar did not appear on Kuzhebergenov’s lists 4 and 5 ...”
Then, by hand, someone struck out the union “and”, as well as the number “5” and added the letter “s” to the word “mouth”. As a result, after corrections it turned out:
“However, Askar did not appear on the lists of 4 companies of Kuzhebergenov ...”.
That is, on the 2nd page of the document, the General Prosecutor of the USSR G.N.Safonov allegedly believes that 28 Panfilov’s served in the 5th company of the N-th regiment, and on the next 3rd page of the document the same 28 Panfilov’s served in the 4th oh company.
The document marked "Top Secret" for the Secretary of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, AA Zhdanov, from the Prosecutor General of the USSR, cannot have such uncertainty about the place of service of 28 Panfilov’s men.
Further, the feat of 28 Panfilov heroes was completed on November 16, 1941. In April 1942, the command of the Western Front in the person of Commander Zhukov, chief of staff Sokolovsky, members of the Military Council of the Front Bulganin, Khokhlov, Serov filed a petition with the narcotic defense for conferring on them the title of Heroes of the Soviet Union. The application was granted and on July 21, 1942, a Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR was issued.
In a document on 3 pages printed:
“In May 1942, KUZHBERGENOV Daniil Aleksandrovich was arrested for voluntarily surrendering to the Germans, who at the first interrogations showed that he is KUZHBERGENOV, who is considered dead among 28 Panfilov heroes.”
It turns out that two months before the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, the competent authorities, namely the military prosecutor’s office, special departments, counterintelligence, SMERSH, already knew about the alleged falsification of the feat. The command of the Western Front was aware of this and did nothing. A large number of people and managers, and performers, and technical workers knew.
And they began to deal with the feat only in 1947 after the arrest of IE Dobrobabin.
It just can't be.
Another fake this document.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Ivan Tartugay

Another fake this document.

Well, yes, as with the Katyn case. Comrade Yakovlev pretty much worked on archives.

[dzeredzavkomimu]

and what bothers you in the Katyn case? Well, and if Stalin gave the order for the execution, and what? the Polish military, and not the civilians, were shot, the Germans handed them over to us, as conspirators with the British to join the anti-Soviet coalition (the Poles themselves had seized by then a piece of the Czech Republic) Maybe Stalin remembered them and the Red Army soldiers who were killed in a Polish concentration camp, I ask again, what is the problem? Do we need to repent? It’s strange why the Finns are silent, there are no executed people? Because there were no conspiracy with the British? How many Poles of Russia .. brains compassed .., for that and paid

[Pomeranian]

Quote: dzeredzavkomimu

and what bothers you in the Katyn case?

Yes, many things confuse me. About 25 years ago, I somehow got into a tight fight with an overly humanly minded citizen from the "Democratic Union" about the execution in Katyn. In the then mess, information was not difficult to obtain. So, that citizen also poked me with papers, shouting with foam at the mouth that these are the most accurate copies of archival data, which absolutely prove the crimes of "the bloody gebny and the cannibal of Stalin." But on a few sheets of paper the font for some reason turned out to be from an electric typewriter "Robotex", with which I congratulated the citizen. But he remained in his own confidence. It is not clear why someone gave me a minus, but I can confidently say that the Poles were shot in Katyn by the Germans, and the documents provided by Yakovlev's commission are fake. Most likely the same fake as the above presented "archival copies" by the author of the article. Although I put a cross for the article. Any work must be appreciated. Even ungrateful.

[Ivan Tartugai]

But he remained in his own confidence.

Yes, so many react. Probably, when a person is deceived, but simply hanged, hang noodles on his ears, and he believes in deception, then later many of the deceived will be ashamed. Shame for yourself, for believing, for letting yourself be deceived. It is very difficult for many to confess their simplicity and admit themselves being deceived. This is especially difficult for young people, as well as middle-aged people, somewhere under 45 years old.
But then this citizen will sit alone with himself, calm down, once again look at his "most accurate copies of archived data" and understand that he was hung a kilo of noodles.
This is probably natural.
I agree with you. It is good that the author of the article posted "archival copies", and did not make, did not write simply unfounded statements.

[Leprekon]

History should be clear, including from political expediency, economic benefits and insanity, those holding power. Does not one fly in the ointment spoil a barrel of honey? Does one speck in the eye allow her not to notice and look at the world with open eyes?
With regard to the history of the Second World War, one thing is undoubtedly, the feat of the Soviet people, their sons, daughters was massive! But all ideological, unconsciously erroneous and frankly false layers must be washed away, as restorers do. The presence of "garbage" in history, as correctly noted in the article, is a time bomb. Tens or even hundreds of years may pass and hidden lies can tarnish the entire period in history and blow up society.
Naturally, the process of purification and its presentation to society should be approached carefully. It may take years, but! The purification and restoration of the historical truth of Russia, the Russian State, the USSR and Russia to be! Power is in the truth!

[semirek]

Recalling the events of those years, Marshal Rokossovsky wrote: "I consider it necessary to underline that it was in these battles for the city and east of it that the 316th division covered itself with glory forever."

[Sower]

The correct article!
Why praise the "bloated heroes", forgetting the real HEROES. This is not even a legend, but a Fiction!
There are a lot of examples and actions of real heroes who have real names and real events.
They need to REMEMBER and WRITE IN THE HISTORY their names.
It's not about something, but what's the difference ?!
The difference is great. A fictional story and real sacrifices and exploits. Maybe someone does not understand the difference?
The article does not detract from the merits of the soldiers of the Red Army, the article puts an end to the tale and says, do not forget the real story and the names of these heroes.
Thanks to our grandfathers for the victory!

[Evgeniy30]

Damn, what kind of people are repeating about fiction? Was Panfilov’s division? It was. Fighting near Moscow, in particular at the Dubosekovo junction? There were. Did German tanks stop? Have stopped. Ash stump there were not 28 people, but a whole division. Which companies, each in its own area, fought heroically. 28 are those who were presented for the award. The service of the Germans is already after. Yes, and do not blame the person for this. For we do not know the circumstances. A lot of ours served the Germans corny because of threats to be tortured, shot, or starve to death. So the feat undoubtedly took place. And all, squealing about fiction, go N.Aher, along with Echo of Moscow and other nits.

[tokens3]

Evgeniy30

And all, squealing about fiction, go n.aher, along with the Echo of Moscow and other nits.

Take it easy.
Feat was

[Sower]

We are talking about specific people who allegedly committed a feat.
No one does not detract from the heroism of the Panfilov soldiers.
The feat of the soldiers and divisions of the KA-reality. Thank them so much for that.
The feat of 28 soldiers (all are named by surname) is the invention of the journalist.
That is what it is about.

[poquello]

Quote: Eugene30

Damn, what kind of people are repeating about fiction? Was Panfilov’s division? It was. Fighting near Moscow, in particular at the Dubosekovo junction? There were. Did German tanks stop? Have stopped. Ash stump there were not 28 people, but a whole division. Which companies, each in its own area, fought heroically. 28 are those who were presented for the award. The service of the Germans is already after. Yes, and do not blame the person for this. For we do not know the circumstances. A lot of ours served the Germans corny because of threats to be tortured, shot, or starve to death. So the feat undoubtedly took place. And all, squealing about fiction, go N.Aher, along with Echo of Moscow and other nits.

and you have nothing to do with Gregory Vasyure? neither?

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: The Sower

The correct article!
Why praise the "bloated heroes", forgetting the real HEROES. This is not even a legend, but a Fiction!
There are a lot of examples and actions of real heroes who have real names and real events.
They need to REMEMBER and WRITE IN THE HISTORY their names.
It's not about something, but what's the difference ?!
The difference is great. A fictional story and real sacrifices and exploits. Maybe someone does not understand the difference?
The article does not detract from the merits of the soldiers of the Red Army, the article puts an end to the tale and says, do not forget the real story and the names of these heroes.
Thanks to our grandfathers for the victory!

The story is not made up. For the fighting near Moscow is a fact. Those who stopped the tanks are heroes and this is undoubtedly a feat. And pout, it's you. Is it you who thank the grandfathers for the Victory?

[Sower]

Is it so bad with logic? Or maybe you can’t read?
The ability to combine heroism and victory with the tales of a coward-talent journalist.
Thank you, grandfathers, not the fables of a journalist and his fantasies.

[MahsusNazar]

Not diarrhea, so scrofula! To all who are outraged by the feat of Panfilov and its presentation, I remind you that on New Year's Day 94-95, our guys fought at the railway station in Grozny. So, today I haven't found ANY post where the truth was written. Everywhere nonsense about "the death of the 131st Maykop brigade in one night." Why aren't you indignant? After all, there was a consolidated detachment of the brigade fighters, far from brigade composition, not even a regiment. However, this nonsense suits everyone. Well, yes, of course, because if we are beaten, then in brigades, and if we win, then with a division - two tanks. Liberatic fi ... nya

[Sower]

Each war has its own (real) heroes.
Write about the war in Chechnya. You need to know how everything was. You must not forget their names. Their will and deed.
On this topic, for example, an article about the Yakut sniper was very informative.
The author is well done.
Write about the Maykop Brigade. We will all be grateful.

[Stas57]

"this is a symbol"
here you explain to me, and why the hell to you, uv. opponents, these characters?
I personally do not need them.

I am quite capable of telling about the battles of the Panfilovites without tales and myths, explaining the bitterness of defeat, and the joy of victories. I have enough knowledge to explain that knocking down even one tank without having the entire set of anti-tank equipment is cool, 2 is very cool, and 3 is extremely cool. Tell why fled and why with grenades rushed under the tanks.
I know that we have many heroes, real and not invented feats. A bunch of little-known stories that take your breath away.
I know that 28 was needed in 41 to raise the spirit, it is absolutely necessary, but now, after 70 years, we can say for sure who is the hero, who is the traitor.
I know how hard the victory was, and for that I don't need to rely on the "Spartans".


Explain what this symbol "28" gives you and why you can't make the whole division a symbol?

[tokens3]

Stas57

"this is a symbol"
here you explain to me, and why the hell to you, uv. opponents, these characters?
I personally do not need them.

Yes, you are not a sport with sectarians. How many heroes, yes it doesn’t matter! Were traitors? Yes it doesn’t matter!
And the fact that they demolished the Temple of Christ the Savior with the collective cenotaph of the soldiers of the Russian Imperial Armykilled in the war with Napoleon. This is so ... a trifle.
Scrupulous calculation and evidence of losses and exploits is the basis of the foundations of any nation and state.

[chenia]

28 Panfilov’s is the case when the award found heroes. They would have remained unknown, well, Klochkov would have been an order bearer twice (posthumously), and so they became a symbol of perseverance.

I want to remind all the morons- they almost all died. Gundilovich gave the information about them (the best company commander in the division, according to Panfilov. At the time of his death in April 1942 he was awarded the Order of the KZ, BKZ, and the Order of Lenin, and he always presented himself with awards of a higher rank.

Gundilovich gave data on those who died in a calm atmosphere (the division was withdrawn to the reserve) and certainly called the most worthy.

Krevitsky, unlike Koroteev, had a lot of time to figure it out, right up to the trip to the grave of Klochkov. And it was not necessary to invent something special.

And who doubted the heroism of the 4 company?

[Stas57]

Quote: chenia

28 Panfilov’s is the case when the award found heroes.

Daniil Aleksandrovich Kozhabergenov (Kuzhebergenov) He did not directly participate in the battle, as in the morning he was sent with a report to Dubosekovo, where he was captured. On the evening of November 16, he escaped from captivity to the forest.
Well done, I raided with Dovator, but did not participate in the battle.

Askar (Aliaskar) Kozhabergenov (Kuzhebergenov), a Red Army man. Arrived at Panfilov’s division in January 1942 of the year (thus, could not participate in the battle at Dubosekov)

Ivan Moiseevich Natarov, According to the political report of the military commissar of the 1075 rifle regiment Mukhamedyarov stored in the TsAMO funds, he died two days before the battle - November 14.

how all these people, who undoubtedly fought with the enemy, received the highest award of the USSR? and this is in 41, where to get KZ - an incredible luxury!

I want to remind all the morons, they almost all died.

even though you don’t write this to me, I’ll answer, more than 100 people from the company died, why only 28 received GSS?

Gundilovich gave data about them (the best company commander in the division, according to Panfilov, Gundilovich gave data on those killed in a calm environment (the division was put on reserve) and certainly named the most worthy.

Gundilovich is a mortal man, he might not have known / remembered everyone, from 140 there were 25 people left, why didn’t the journalist care about the rest of his name? Why did he carry sansatsyu in his beak, and did not check on the spot, did not interview the fighters, maybe because the 4 of the tank on 100 is the person in his eyes, this is not an ehschlusif, not an urgent number, but 20 on 28 is that? Direct life news of some kind.

Krevitsky, unlike Koroteev, had a lot of time to figure it out, right up to the trip to the grave of Klochkov. And there wasn’t much to think of

.
The body of Vasily Klochkov was found, identified and buried only in February / March, when did the article appear?

And who doubted the heroism of the 4 company?

no one, only the company is not 28 people

ps

Those. in 2 hours both Nelidovo and Petelino were lost. Dubosekovo was left behind. There was no point in storming it - there was no road there. The road leaves through Petelino. http://www.etomesto.ru/map-rkka_n-37-a/?x=36.050807&y=55.98404 on Shiryaevo, where the remains of the 1075 regiment took up defense. On the modern map it is clearly visible that immediately after the junction there is a ravine (and on the terrain it is clearly visible) http://www.etomesto.ru/map-topokarta/?x=36.053725&y=55.970191, so there is no point in advancing there with tanks.

here http://warspot.ru/4282-na-podstupah-k-moskve
everything is well described about the division, read, and do not believe in fairy tales

[Bosk]

My grandfather from my mother's side also fought near Moscow and in the winter of the 42nd his militia regiment was thrown into the German breakthrough, well what can I say, the militia regiment kept German tanks for a day and then disappeared without a trace ... all !, granny years until the 70s all the authorities "raised their ears" to find out the fate of the grandfather and nothing, so the whole regiment is listed as missing until today ... Why am I saying this ... if you take in fact the regiment kept tanks for a whole day and judging by the fact that on the second line he was detained, it means that the militias did not thin him out weakly, are they heroes? -Yes !, but on the other hand, they are still considered missing ..., well, how many of these "Forgotten regiments" were there during the war and "Forgotten Heroes" ...

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Lexi3

Stas57

"this is a symbol"
here you explain to me, and why the hell to you, uv. opponents, these characters?
I personally do not need them.

Yes, you are not a sport with sectarians. How many heroes, yes it doesn’t matter! Were traitors? Yes it doesn’t matter!
And the fact that they demolished the Temple of Christ the Savior with the collective cenotaph of the soldiers of the Russian Imperial Armykilled in the war with Napoleon. This is so ... a trifle.
Scrupulous calculation and evidence of losses and exploits is the basis of the foundations of any nation and state.

Now I understand your spray of saliva. Obviously anti-Soviet slips. Expose the feat of 300 Spartans, for in fact there were far from 300 of them.

[tokens3]

Evgeniy30

Now I understand your spray of saliva. Obviously anti-Soviet slips. Expose the feat of 300 Spartans, for in fact there were far from 300 of them.

Drink a thread. Brush away a tear.

[chenia]

Liberates pass me by! But the arguments are weak.

They never served, and they have no idea of ​​the army and war. And they constantly moo about the fact that all the heroes represented are only a figment of the imagination of the compositagitprom.

They and Gostello are not the same, and the Sailors are wrong, and 23 Panfilov-Klochkovites (out of 28) died of a cold, and not in battle.

And they cunningly cover up their desire to defame the heroes with a balakina about objectivity in reflecting history.

And turn it around. they don’t need the truth, the main thing is to spoil.

[Vadim2013]

In the fall of 1941, the military situation near Moscow was very tense. It was necessary at all costs to stop the German troops for a day, for hours. The 316th Infantry Division of Ivan Vasilyevich Panfilov heroically completed this task, stopping the advance of several Wehrmacht divisions in the Volokolamsk direction from October 15 to November 20 November 1941. At this time, it was not up to the description of the battles of the division and its units. The task was one at all costs to stop the German troops. Eternal glory and memory of fallen soldiers and officers.

[chenia]

Quote: chenia

how all these people, who undoubtedly fought with the enemy, received the highest award of the USSR? and this is in 41, where to get KZ - an incredible luxury!

And here we must first understand

first, Klochkov in battle was the commander of the PT platoon of the 2nd battalion (a contingent formation from the selected battalion fighters, see the orders for the formation of these teams - tank destroyers, and see Beck's book, where Mamysh-Ula has a regular platoon commander Koloev - what surprised Panfilov "did you select people?")

the second is the tactics of these units — positions up to 30 m away 100-60 m before the first trench — which means there could only be a group of 5-6 soldiers), these guys are imprisoned to destroy primarily tanks, infantry are cut off by the company. Such positions there were several in front of each company of the first echelon of the battalion (the number of groups according to the number of commanders, (4-5 detached, PKV, and Klochkov).

the third - there was no separate battle. The anti-tank platoon performed the task in the most threatened area — a breakthrough section. Just at the first attack Klochkivtsi knocked out (damaged) 4-5 tanks. while 4 companies cut off the infantry, and foiled the German offensive.

fourth- Well, here you have to be military and have some idea of ​​the relationship in the army. It is strange that practical Germans then struck with such forces at 14-15 hours. There was so little bright time for success. This is what a senior boss put in to them, that they scrambled out fifty tanks like scalded and despite the upcoming night rushed forward. (This indirectly confirms that the Germans' first offensive (and not reconnaissance by battle) was failed).

Quote: chenia

Gundilovich is a mortal man, he might not have known / remembered everyone, out of 140, 25 were left, why didn’t the journalist care about the rest of his name?

It’s clear that you didn’t command a company, otherwise you never carried such stupidity. Everything from the list of the old set (4 month (1 month of serious battles)) together, even if we take into account the fact that the tank destroyer team was a national team, the majority were still 4 company fighters in the past, and they were registered in the SDK, hence they were on contentment in 4 company.)
The company verdict knows its people thoroughly, and would never have written random people into heroes.

[Stas57]

And here we must first understand

yeah, for example, start with where the main German blow went. how many KG were there, where did the tanks go, at which NP, and why didn’t they go to Dubosekovo, where was the defense, and so on
all your thoughts about the trenches, about the 4 of the destroyed tanks by the Klochkovites, or about the Germans whose documents are available, and you didn’t see their KG tactics in their eyes, etc., I don’t see any reason to discuss

It’s clear that you didn’t command a company, otherwise you never carried such stupidity. Everything from the list of the old set (4 month (1 month of serious battles)) together, even if we take into account the fact that the tank destroyer team was a national team, the majority were still 4 company fighters in the past, and they were registered in the SDK, hence they were on contentment in 4 company.)

it is obvious that the company could not know where all his fighters were, and how exactly and where they died, he didn’t even know his surnames, he didn’t know that Kozhabergenov hadn’t died, and Natarov had died the day before, well, he had forgotten, the battles merged into one heavy fights, but what did he check the journalist? Nope, he’s urgently broadcast!

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Stas57

Quote: chenia

28 Panfilov’s is the case when the award found heroes.

Daniil Aleksandrovich Kozhabergenov (Kuzhebergenov) He did not directly participate in the battle, as in the morning he was sent with a report to Dubosekovo, where he was captured. On the evening of November 16, he escaped from captivity to the forest.
Well done, I raided with Dovator, but did not participate in the battle.

Askar (Aliaskar) Kozhabergenov (Kuzhebergenov), a Red Army man. Arrived at Panfilov’s division in January 1942 of the year (thus, could not participate in the battle at Dubosekov)

Ivan Moiseevich Natarov, According to the political report of the military commissar of the 1075 rifle regiment Mukhamedyarov stored in the TsAMO funds, he died two days before the battle - November 14.

how all these people, who undoubtedly fought with the enemy, received the highest award of the USSR? and this is in 41, where to get KZ - an incredible luxury!

I want to remind all the morons, they almost all died.

even though you don’t write this to me, I’ll answer, more than 100 people from the company died, why only 28 received GSS?

Gundilovich gave data about them (the best company commander in the division, according to Panfilov, Gundilovich gave data on those killed in a calm environment (the division was put on reserve) and certainly named the most worthy.

Gundilovich is a mortal man, he might not have known / remembered everyone, from 140 there were 25 people left, why didn’t the journalist care about the rest of his name? Why did he carry sansatsyu in his beak, and did not check on the spot, did not interview the fighters, maybe because the 4 of the tank on 100 is the person in his eyes, this is not an ehschlusif, not an urgent number, but 20 on 28 is that? Direct life news of some kind.

Krevitsky, unlike Koroteev, had a lot of time to figure it out, right up to the trip to the grave of Klochkov. And there wasn’t much to think of

.
The body of Vasily Klochkov was found, identified and buried only in February / March, when did the article appear?

And why the 6th company in Chechnya (86 paratroopers died) was not assigned the GR, and all of them? What's the logic? According to your logic, the GSS should have been given to all 36 million people who have passed through the warpaths. 28 simply became a kind of symbol with which every Panfilov soldier identified himself. Here above, one comrade complained that once they demolished the temple of Christ the Savior, with the cinematography of the heroes of 1812, (again, it's a shame that not everyone then received the Order of St. Andrew the First-Called (the highest award of RI). But we ourselves are persistently doing the same. the fact that there were not 28 people is a no brainer. The point is completely different. The point is that the defense of Moscow WAS, and was heroic, just these notorious 28 became a symbol of the defense of Moscow. Why none of the current whistleblowers smeared an absolutely false picture "Burnt by the Sun - 2"? This is where the outright lies and humiliation. Or "I serve the Soviet Union", "Stalingrad", "Bastards", etc. Why did you run into these unfortunate 28? Or are they not worthy?
For some reason, the defense of Sevastopol is associated with a sailor in a peakless cap. Shall we expose? After all, Sevastopol was defended by others. Why is there a monument to the "lorry" near St. Petersburg as a symbol of the "road of life", if the bulk of the cargo was transported by planes and ships, and not by cars? Let's expose everything? The main thing is just in time, when powerful ideological pressure is coming on our country. Why were these Panfilov men remembered only now? Why is there no exposure of Mikhalkov's lie? This way we will go far.

[tokens3]

Evgeniy30

Here above, one comrade complained that once demolished the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, with the movie heroes of the heroes of 1812,

You comrade Evgeny30 direct the discussion in the right direction
Really, why divide the heroes into defense plots?
At my maternal grandparents many brothers were killed in 1941. So what? One was missing in an environment.
Is it his fault that the command scored on boilers in 1941 ???
Yes, the Second World War was much more bloody than the war of 1812.
So the symbol should be the same for everyone! If there is a Temple of goodness. Let it be. There is someone to decide such things.
And to each surname! 21 century technology allows.
And I'm sorry ... here is a feat.
And somewhere there is duty. Not a thing.
With all due respect to the soldiers of Panfilov’s division.

[Stas57]

Quote: Eugene30

And why did the 6 company in Chechnya (86 paratroopers perish) not be assigned GR, and to all? What kind of logic? According to your logic, the GSS had to be given to all 36 millions of people who passed through the warpaths.

No, give it deservedly, for the feat (I remind you, the highest award of the country !!), and not according to the list, so that later it wouldn’t turn out that one was killed before, the other arrived after, the third was not at all, and the fourth traitor, this is generally obvious.

Quote: Eugene30

was heroic, just these notorious 28 became a symbol of the defense of Moscow.

why exactly them? and Podolsk cadets? not?
and the whole division? even the streets are named
I repeat once again, why is the symbol of Moscow’s defense, for you 28 and not the whole division, do you have any special heroemeter?
I see no reason to respond to further outpouring

[chenia]

I didn’t understand, I was responding to quotes Stasa57, but passed it off as our own.

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Stas57

Quote: Eugene30

And why did the 6 company in Chechnya (86 paratroopers perish) not be assigned GR, and to all? What kind of logic? According to your logic, the GSS had to be given to all 36 millions of people who passed through the warpaths.

No, give it deservedly, for the feat (I remind you, the highest award of the country !!), and not according to the list, so that later it wouldn’t turn out that one was killed before, the other arrived after, the third was not at all, and the fourth traitor, this is generally obvious.

Quote: Eugene30

was heroic, just these notorious 28 became a symbol of the defense of Moscow.

why exactly them? and Podolsk cadets? not?
and the whole division? even the streets are named
I repeat once again, why is the symbol of Moscow’s defense, for you 28 and not the whole division, do you have any special heroemeter?
I see no reason to respond to further outpouring

I don't have a special heroometer. And you, apparently, have it. I’ve already written a whole treatise on why. The entire Panfilov division is heroes, like millions of others. Simply for various reasons, these 28 became the symbol of this very division, like the 300 Spartans. It's not good or bad, it's true. They are a symbol of the battle on their own field. The symbol of your division. Just like the Podolsk cadets. Just like the Kremlin cadets, whom, by the way, Nikita Mikhalkov portrayed as complete downers in his film. Didn't that bother you? I don’t understand why mix everything together and look for the slightest straw in the eye? By the way, the 9th company in Afghanistan, defending height 3234, was also not alone. The entire 345th traffic police station was alerted. The following took part in the battle: the 9th company itself, the artillery of the 345th regiment, the artillery of the 103rd division, the 3rd battalion of the 345th regiment, the reconnaissance company of the 345th regiment, and aviation. But they only talk about the feat of the 9th company, and again, not everyone was given a hero. Isn't it offensive?

[Stas57]

Quote: Eugene30

I don't have a special heroometer. And you, apparently, have it. I’ve already written a whole treatise on why. The entire Panfilov division is heroes, like millions of others. Simply for various reasons, these 28 became the symbol of this very division, like the 300 Spartans.

The division itself became a symbol of the division’s heroism, consisting of people who left behind children and grandchildren, who do not care about the Spartans, but who know that their parents died defending their Motherland. Why come up with heroes from a list of several thousand, when Ivan Vasilyevich himself and his division are worthy of praise?
then you start again about Mikhalkov, you have a mania of persecution, leave this sick man alone, he was even kicked out of Russia1

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Lexi3

Evgeniy30

Here above, one comrade complained that once demolished the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, with the movie heroes of the heroes of 1812,

You comrade Evgeny30 direct the discussion in the right direction
Really, why divide the heroes into defense plots?
At my maternal grandparents many brothers were killed in 1941. So what? One was missing in an environment.
Is it his fault that the command scored on boilers in 1941 ???
Yes, the Second World War was much more bloody than the war of 1812.
So the symbol should be the same for everyone! If there is a Temple of goodness. Let it be. There is someone to decide such things.
And to each surname! 21 century technology allows.
And I'm sorry ... here is a feat.
And somewhere there is duty. Not a thing.
With all due respect to the soldiers of Panfilov’s division.

Personally, I don’t divide anyone into any sections. It’s just that for me personally, 28 Panfilov men are a symbol of perseverance, and again, I personally never beg for the participation of others in the battle, I do not personally attribute to them the defense of Moscow, etc. Moreover, my grandfather did not take part in the defense of Moscow, he fought on another front, and my great-grandfather died on the Kursk Bulge. And my grandmother was a labor striker, sharpening shells in the rear. They are also heroes for me, although no one received the Hero Star. One does not contradict the other.
The command didn’t give up on the boilers, you shouldn’t be doing that. I am not against the temple; if necessary, I will personally donate money, although I am not a believer. As for family names, alas, unfortunately, everyone will never be established by family name, no matter how much one would like to. And we all already have a symbol, this is our Victory. 9th May. We have many such symbols, and the whole is formed from such symbols. It would be wrong if we destroy these symbols, which were sacred to the veterans themselves. Because by destroying them, we will help our enemies destroy Victory itself, equate the USSR with Nazi Germany, and then revise the results of World War 2, which will ultimately hit modern Russia.

[tokens3]

Evgeniy30

The command didn’t give up on the boilers, you shouldn’t be doing that.

I won’t argue with your point of view. However, I have a different view. Just read the Reports on COMBAT ACTIONS in the initial period...
Complete unpreparedness of the logistics unit. But the Wehrmacht was ready to attack back in May.
So the commanders understood everything. For they knew very well the states of the German divisions and what the balance of forces would be.
Without general mobilization, the advanced units were simply doomed.

And we all already have a symbol, this is our Victory. 9th May.

It was a Victory with tears in our eyes. There is no need to make old mistakes and make new ones.
Victories are achieved not through symbols, but through logic and reason, and the courage to admit mistakes.
And a new symbol, like a new victory in new wars, no matter how you look at it, will come with new circumstances and new ideas.
This has always been the case. We must prepare not using the example of past wars.
Yes, and there is no more countless human resource in Russia - for all the enemy’s tanks.
I didn’t set you a minus

[chenia]

Quote: Stas57

ha, for example, start with where the main German attack went. how many CGs were there, where did the tanks go, to which OPs, and why didn’t they go to Dubosekovo, where the defense was, etc.
all your thoughts about the trenches, about the 4 of the destroyed tanks by the Klochkovites, or about the Germans whose documents are available, and you didn’t see their KG tactics in their eyes, etc., I don’t see any reason to discuss

There are not many words about anything. Please formulate your question more specifically.

The blow fell on the junction of the division (left flank), all according to science.
The main thing is that the Germans designated the breakthrough area and the direction of the main attack, and that the 4th company delayed them. and allowing the division reserve (1 SB 1073 SP), surrounded by artillery, to correctly choose the position and take them into its “hot” embrace, not on November 16, but on November 17. And there the soldiers of Momysh-Ula - they were bullied for 2 days along with the artillery, until they transferred the main blow to the division’s right neighbor (Solnechnogorsk). And the division fought back (50 km) by order of the command of the 16th Army, Katukov’s brigade covered the retreat.

But the Germans did not penetrate the 8th Guards SD. not in October, not in November.


“We took on these tanks. They fired from an anti-tank rifle from the right flank, but we didn’t have one... They started jumping out of the trenches and throwing bunches of grenades under the tanks... They threw bottles of fuel at the crews. I don’t know what was exploding there, there were only big explosions in the tanks... I had to blow up two heavy tanks. We repulsed this attack and destroyed 15 tanks. 5 tanks retreated in the opposite direction to the village of Zhdanovo. In the first battle there were no losses on my left flank.
Political instructor Klochkov noticed that the second batch of tanks was moving,

Testimony of I. Vasilyev. Naturally, a lot has been corrected according to Krivitsky’s article, but there is valuable information.

- there were two battles (the number of destroyed tanks is clearly exaggerated). and the second battle also did not start so quickly (but after 2-2,5 hours.)
- “on my left flank” shows the tactics of this unit, group.

Positions in front of the first trench - this information was taken from orders and recommendations from the Polar Division on the tactics of tank destroyer teams. Vasilyev’s words are indirect confirmation.

Quote: Stas57

it is obvious that the company commander cannot know where all his soldiers are,

By the way, Gundilovich, according to Krivitsky, gave out names from some separate list. This also shows that he gave names from Klochkov’s team. And the Klochkovites always met the enemy first.

[Stas57]

The main thing is that the Germans designated the breakthrough area and the direction of the main attack,

and where was this blow directed?

There are not many words about anything. Please formulate your question more specifically.

I clearly formulated the questions that are necessary for understanding those battles. Decide at least on the direction of the strike.

I repeat, in 2 hours both Nelidovo and Petelino were lost. Dubosekovo remained behind. There was no point in storming it - there was no road there. The road goes through Petelinona Shiryaevo, where the remnants of the 1075th regiment took up defense.
The Germans advanced in this place to the north, northeast, through Nelidovo and Petelino. There is no road to Moscow through Dubosekovo; by and large, no one needs it.

Positions in front of the first trench - this information was taken from orders and recommendations from the Polar Division on the tactics of tank destroyer teams. Vasilyev’s words are indirect confirmation.

From the transcript of a conversation with I.R. Vasiliev, 22.12.1942/XNUMX/XNUMX, Moscow
They ordered us to dig in near the Dubosekovo crossing. We dug in.

Do you think they dug communication passages there?, or as required by the regulations - individual shooting cells
hmm, everything is clear....

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Stas57

"this is a symbol"
here you explain to me, and why the hell to you, uv. opponents, these characters?
I personally do not need them.

I am quite capable of telling about the battles of the Panfilovites without tales and myths, explaining the bitterness of defeat, and the joy of victories. I have enough knowledge to explain that knocking down even one tank without having the entire set of anti-tank equipment is cool, 2 is very cool, and 3 is extremely cool. Tell why fled and why with grenades rushed under the tanks.
I know that we have many heroes, real and not invented feats. A bunch of little-known stories that take your breath away.
I know that 28 was needed in 41 to raise the spirit, it is absolutely necessary, but now, after 70 years, we can say for sure who is the hero, who is the traitor.
I know how hard the victory was, and for that I don't need to rely on the "Spartans".


Explain what this symbol "28" gives you and why you can't make the whole division a symbol?

Symbols are not needed yes. Let's tear down the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. This is also a symbol. Who knows how that unknown soldier died. Maybe he is not a hero at all, as Soviet propaganda told us? Is it true? Let's demolish the monument (aka symbol) to Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya. After all, according to the revelations of modern liberals, she is not a heroine at all, but a Stalinist ghoul who burned thousands of innocents. We will demolish the monument to Matrosov, who needs these soldiers? Moreover, every knowledgeable liberal will tell you that he is not a hero, he simply slipped, and in general, the “red-bellies” lost that battle, filling the Germans with corpses. You are going the right way....

[Stas57]

Quote: Eugene30

Symbols are not needed yes. Let's tear down the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. This is also a symbol. Who knows how that unknown soldier died. Maybe he is not a hero at all, as Soviet propaganda told us? Is it true? Let's demolish the monument (aka symbol) to Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya. After all, according to the revelations of modern liberals, she is not a heroine at all, but a Stalinist ghoul who burned thousands of innocents. We will demolish the monument to Matrosov, who needs these soldiers? Moreover, every knowledgeable liberal will tell you that he is not a hero, he simply slipped, and in general, the “red-bellies” lost that battle, filling the Germans with corpses. You are going the right way....

I asked a clear question - why do you need the symbol 28, why is the entire division that fought well not a symbol?
in response I see some kind of loosely connected speech about the demolition of monuments

[Evgeniy30]

Some especially gifted person downvotes without even reading....

[chenia]

Quote: Eugene30

Some especially gifted person downvotes it without even reading it.

Exactly. Very interesting subject Stas 57 sometimes under the US flag, sometimes under the Russian one. Yes, and I feel it has several nicknames.

And they definitely put downvotes without thinking (at the top there was a completely neutral (not related to the topic) question and that one was downvoted.

[Stas57]

Quote: chenia

Exactly. A very interesting subject, Stas 57, either under the US flag or under the Russian one. Yes, and I feel it has several nicknames.

because some providers are determined by different countries, but you sit down and just breathe deeply.
If you're afraid of the downsides, don't go to topvar

[bbss]

Zealous truth-seekers play the unenviable role of the Trojan Horse (apparently in this case the “Trojan Pig”). With their help, they are trying to downplay the significance of the victory of the Soviet people over fascism. That's why I gave the author a big minus.

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Stas57

Quote: Eugene30

Symbols are not needed yes. Let's tear down the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. This is also a symbol. Who knows how that unknown soldier died. Maybe he is not a hero at all, as Soviet propaganda told us? Is it true? Let's demolish the monument (aka symbol) to Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya. After all, according to the revelations of modern liberals, she is not a heroine at all, but a Stalinist ghoul who burned thousands of innocents. We will demolish the monument to Matrosov, who needs these soldiers? Moreover, every knowledgeable liberal will tell you that he is not a hero, he simply slipped, and in general, the “red-bellies” lost that battle, filling the Germans with corpses. You are going the right way....

I asked a clear question - why do you need the symbol 28, why is the entire division that fought well not a symbol?
in response I see some kind of loosely connected speech about the demolition of monuments

I gave you a clear answer. For you, 28 Panfilov men are not a symbol? For God's sake. For veterans, they were. This is ONE OF the symbols. If we destroy it, we will have to destroy others too.

[Stas57]

Quote: Eugene30

If we destroy it, we will have to destroy others too.

What for?
it must be clearly said - 28 is one thing, the division is another, cadets are third, sappers are four.
and all
This does not in any way affect the heroism of the division. I have already said that this was necessary then, now we can clearly say where, who and when showed heroism, without focusing on the number.
There is no need for hand-wringing or hysterics about this.

[Stas57]

By the way, yes, if you need heroism near Moscow, tell us about the Ilyinsky lines - it’s just a fantastic story!



October 1941, Operation Typhoon is in full swing. The 19th Panzer Division is rushing along the highway to Moscow. Yukhnov was taken without any problems; on the Ugra River the defense was held by as many as two Soviet tanks and 400 hastily deployed paratroopers. There is a threat of a breakthrough to the Mozhaisk defense line, where there are no troops. That is, no at all - the road to Moscow is open.
The Soviet command alerts the personnel of the Podolsk schools, infantry and artillery, and they, along with all the materiel, rush to occupy the fortified area in the area of ​​​​the village of Ilyinskoye - the “Ilyinsky Frontier”. To gain time, the advanced detachment of cadets was sent to help the paratroopers and on October 6th attacked the overly active German reconnaissance, throwing it back to the Ugra.
The Germans did not remain in debt, and systematically rolled out the cadets and paratroopers, reaching the Ilyinsky line exactly along the highway by the 11th. Particular attention should be paid to the latter. The weather in those days was wet, and everything that was off the road very quickly turned into wet mud, in which even tanks sank. This will play a role in the future.
So, all that was left of the advanced detachment of our cadets were horns and legs, all the equipment was lost, the Germans joyfully rolled out to Ilyinsky. Oops. They are met by a fully staffed fortified area, and from that moment on, the 29th German motorized regiment, with the support of divisional artillery, a company of tanks and aviation, begins to stupidly hammer head-on into the bunkers. Stupidly, but according to all the rules of military art, so by the 13th the Germans moved forward. As much as 300 meters. And on October 14, they creakingly clung to the first and part of the second line of defense.
But the Germans would not be Germans if they limited themselves to methodically shooting down bunkers with everything that was at hand. Starting from October 13, the onslaught was transferred from the highway to the right flank of the defense. The infantry crosses Vypreika and knocks out the cadets from the less heavily fortified village of Bolshaya Shubinka. A night counterattack manages to recapture the village, but there is no longer enough strength, and in a safe area between Ilyinsky and B. Shubinka (the forest protects it from fire), German sappers quickly build a bridge for heavy equipment.
As a result, on October 15, the 1st battalion of the 73rd PP 19TD launched a flank attack on Ilyinsky. Ours, having brought up the last reserves, gave the Germans a kick in the teeth, but the main forces of the tank division were methodically transported across the bridge over the Vypreika to the eastern bank. And they walk through the forest past Ilyinsky.
In the situation of the summer of 1941, this feat would have ended. But it’s worth remembering that it’s mid-October, and the bypass road to the bridge quickly turned into a complete mess, along which even tanks had difficulty passing. As a result, although the tanks and infantry rushed towards Moscow and by the evening of October 15 saddled the highway, occupying Cherkasovo in the rear of the defending cadets, the entire fleet of vehicles and artillery of the division remained trampling under Ilyinsky.

[Stas57]

extension
****

On October 16, the Germans launched a second powerful attack on Ilyinsky’s flank and on Sergievka with the entire available personnel of the 73PP and the first battalion of the 74PP, with the support of tanks. They manage to gain a foothold on the outskirts of the village, but the remnants of the cadets will hold out for several more days. On the same day, one of the most famous beatings of the Panzerwaffe of 41 takes place. According to the German plan, on the morning of October 16, a column of 15 tanks (mainly 38 (t) 5 companies of the 27 regiment, plus at least two PzIVs) was supposed to break into Ilyinskoye along the highway from the eastern side, supported by the infantry of the 3rd battalion of the 73rd infantry regiments hiding in roadside ditches . Precisely along the highway, since there is forest and impassable mud all around, from which they are already tired of pulling out stuck equipment.
According to our testimony, the Germans decided to cheat and drove off in a marching column with a red flag on the lead vehicle. And they would have succeeded if there had not been positions of anti-tank vehicles and anti-aircraft gunners, the artillery reserve of the defenders, on the edge of the forest east of Sergievka. The Germans fell into a perfect ambush; 100-mm guns and 200-mm guns stationed 85-14 meters from the road shot 15 out of XNUMX tanks in a matter of minutes. Jammed by deep ditches on a narrow road, the tanks did not even have time to turn towards the shooters with their frontal armor, although a couple of Pragues managed to turn around and try to escape, but were still knocked out by accurate fire. The crew of the gun commander, cadet Yuri Dobrynin, especially distinguished himself in battle. During the battle, according to our data, he destroyed “6 tanks and 2 armored personnel carriers” - apparently this is the same 85-mm anti-aircraft gun, the position of which was filmed in detail by chroniclers of the 19th tank division. According to the Germans, only one tank managed to escape to the bridge over the Vypreika. The infantry left without tanks was scattered and thrown off the highway back into the forest.
On October 18, the cadets received an order to retreat to Borovsk. The Germans were detained for 2 weeks, which was enough to form a continuous line of defense in sections of the second line of the Mozhaisk fortified area - along the Nara River. According to our data, about 100 tanks and 5000 soldiers and officers (a fair portion of the advancing motorized corps) were destroyed. It was not possible to find an estimate of German losses, but most of the ill-fated tank column was left to rot on the highway - only a few vehicles were evacuated. The rest, after being hit by 76-mm and 85-mm shells, could not be quickly restored, and enterprising German repairmen quickly removed all spare parts from them, and the tanks themselves were pushed off the highway so as not to interfere with the advance to Moscow. That's the end of the story.

Alexey Kalinin

broken Prague

and you are all a symbol, a symbol...

[Stas57]

the same anti-aircraft gun

The crew of the gun commander, cadet Yuri Dobrynin, especially distinguished himself in battle. During the battle, according to our data, he destroyed “6 tanks and 2 armored personnel carriers” - apparently this is the same 85-mm anti-aircraft gun, the position of which was filmed in detail by chroniclers of the 19th tank division.

By the way, dear twenty-somethings, tell me what award did Yu. Dobrynin receive for his excellent work? ?

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Stas57

Quote: Eugene30

I don't have a special heroometer. And you, apparently, have it. I’ve already written a whole treatise on why. The entire Panfilov division is heroes, like millions of others. Simply for various reasons, these 28 became the symbol of this very division, like the 300 Spartans.

The division itself became a symbol of the division’s heroism, consisting of people who left behind children and grandchildren, who do not care about the Spartans, but who know that their parents died defending their Motherland. Why come up with heroes from a list of several thousand, when Ivan Vasilyevich himself and his division are worthy of praise?
then you start again about Mikhalkov, you have a mania of persecution, leave this sick man alone, he was even kicked out of Russia1

It was for veterans that these 28 were a symbol. They identified themselves with them. Not a symbol for you? Well, for God's sake. There is no need to impose your fantasies on others. And I specifically brought you Mikhalkov’s pimers and others as a clear example of what you are so fiercely fighting. But you fight specifically. For some reason, obvious blatant false myths do not touch you. But the 28 Panfilovites, who have been one of the symbols for 70 years, give you diarrhea. If you don't like it, ignore it.

[Stas57]

Quote: Eugene30

It was for veterans that these 28 were a symbol. They identified themselves with them.

What kind of veterans organization do you represent so that you can speak for everyone?

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Lexi3

Evgeniy30

The command didn’t give up on the boilers, you shouldn’t be doing that.

I won’t argue with your point of view. However, I have a different view. Just read the Reports on COMBAT ACTIONS in the initial period...
Complete unpreparedness of the logistics unit. But the Wehrmacht was ready to attack back in May.
So the commanders understood everything. For they knew very well the states of the German divisions and what the balance of forces would be.
Without general mobilization, the advanced units were simply doomed.

Well, what does this have to do with military operations, supposedly hammering into boilers and so on? The intelligence data was contradictory and it was not clear from them WHEN they would attack, where the direction of the main attack would be, etc. How do you imagine mobilizing a huge army, closing a border stretching over 1000 kilometers and holding it all together for months, straining the economy? You can’t be 100% prepared for this. Read the documents, there are a lot of good studies on this topic.

[tokens3]

Evgeniy30

The intelligence data was contradictory and it was not clear from them WHEN they would attack, where the direction of the main attack would be, etc. How do you imagine mobilizing a huge army, closing a border stretching over 1000 kilometers and holding it all together for months, straining the economy?

Yes ...
Well, how did the USSR “tear” its economy by the end of 1941? Can you tell me?
But for some reason Hitler was able to “tear himself” by drawing troops to the border, but the wise Stalin was not?
Question When.
This question was never faced by the conquerors. Naturally, in the best period with the maximum duration of daylight hours. And adjusted for the Blitzkrieg, also when the weather is favorable for aviation and motor transport resources. Can you imagine the beginning of the war on September 22, 1941? or March 22, 1941? I can’t. Apparently you can.
The entire “strain” of the economy occurred in the summer quarter.
And one more thing: Why were there no agents on the railway transport of the Third Reich?
Oh, yes...There were Stirlitz, the Red Chapel and singers with circus performers.
Then yes. I admit it. The USSR had no chance in 1941.

[chenia]

Quote: Stas57

and where was this blow directed?

Shiryaevo - Matrenino-Pokrovskoe - direction of the main attack

Nelidovo-Yadrovo-Lystsevo - bypass, coverage.

So, what successes have the Germans had in the main direction?

By the way, what is CG? maybe BG after all.

Quote: Stas57

I asked a clear question - why do you need the symbol 28, why is the entire division that fought well not a symbol?

When in the spring of 1942 the Polar Fleet PU decided to show a symbol of the tenacity of the defense, the choice fell on the 8th GV. The SD was twice in the direction of the main attack and twice the Germans did not penetrate it, the division became a guards division, the division commander died (and it did become this symbol). The symbol could have been 1 SB 1073 SP which detained the Germans. But Momysh-Uly brought him out in combat-ready condition, and the battalion, like the division, is too large a formation in terms of self-sacrifice for everyone to die. And this is an example of self-sacrifice (at that time it was believed that 26 soldiers were definitely killed), and Klochkov’s team was there, and by right (Klochkov at that time was twice an order bearer, and there is no feat of a commander without a feat of a unit), well, Krivitsky’s article helped.

Quote: Stas57

If you're afraid of the downsides, don't go to topvar

You are funny, I will somehow survive the disadvantages. The truth is fun. when someone sculpts them without even delving into the meaning of what is written.

[Stas57]

Quote: chenia

Shiryaevo - Matrenino-Pokrovskoe - direction of the main attack

Nelidovo-Yadrovo-Lystsevo - bypass, coverage.

Well, what does Dubosekovo have to do with it, why do they need a dead-end direction if they are successfully operating along the main ones?

Quote: chenia

So, what successes have the Germans had in the main direction?

why on the main thing? The main thing at that moment is that their favorite tactic is more successful, by the way, they occupied Shiryaevo, repulsed ours into the forest, and moved on. The Germans passed through Nikolskoye and Petelino and hit the defense 1073 south of Yardovo. At 14.00 the position of the 2nd TD was recorded as north and northeast of Petelino. 2 km south of Volokolamsk highway.
the enemy also came close to Matryonino, where he came across 1 Guards Tank Brigade + 1073 sp

the task of the day was completed, Nelidovo, Petelino, Lystsovo were taken, Matryonino is well described in Momysh-uly. defense 3 days!


By the way, what is CG? maybe BG after all.

Quote: chenia

By the way, what is CG? maybe BG after all.

maybe the Germans called it KG

When in the spring of 1942 PU
,,,,
And this is an example of self-sacrifice (at that time it was believed that 26 soldiers were definitely killed),

Hmm, in the spring, judging by the document above, 6 people were found, Natarov was dealt with, Kuzhebergenov returned, at least there is a question about who has the right one - since there are no bodies, then at least they are missing, or maybe they all went to the Germans in a crowd?

You are funny, I will somehow survive the disadvantages. The truth is fun. when someone sculpts them without even delving into the meaning of what is written

you are funny, one person cannot give another 2-3 minuses at once

[chenia]

A certain factor must be taken into account.
If in the October battles Panfilov had as many as 10 AP for 8 battalions!!!, another division and two batteries. then the artillery in the November battles was as big as hell. Kaprov testified about the museum cannons, and Momysh-Uly about the very restrained work of our artillery on November 16.
True, at that time the division’s defense front was up to 40 km, but in November it was only 16 km.

Therefore, the more experienced Panfilov (after the October battles) no longer smeared the artillery (and there was little of it), but invested 1 SB 1073 SP. Momysh-Uly indicates that only 17. Our artillery started working, that is, when the tanks attacked Matrenino.

And the delay of the 1st BG in the direction of Matrenino (the merit of the 4th company and the anti-tank platoon under the command of Klochkov) played an important role in the future.

Quote: Stas57

Do you think they dug communication passages there? Or, as required by the regulations, individual rifle cells
hmm, everything is clear....

The BRO was prepared (like the entire section of the regiment's defense) by engineering units and residents of the capital long ago. Having occupied it, the 2nd battalion naturally improved it.

The progress of the message to the positions of the PT groups is naturally not in full profile along the entire length, as is the position itself. but there were gaps for BP and LS. And it’s more convenient to throw grenades from semi-profile trenches.
He threw a grenade (a bunch, an anti-tank mine and rolled into the gap) from the bullets and for the next portion.

[Skobelev]

Quote: Vadim2013

In the fall of 1941, the military situation near Moscow was very tense. It was necessary at all costs to stop the German troops for a day, for hours. The 316th Infantry Division of Ivan Vasilyevich Panfilov heroically completed this task, stopping the advance of several Wehrmacht divisions in the Volokolamsk direction from October 15 to November 20 November 1941. At this time, it was not up to the description of the battles of the division and its units. The task was one at all costs to stop the German troops. Eternal glory and memory of fallen soldiers and officers.

On November 18, 1941, the 316th Rifle Division was reorganized into the 8th Guards Rifle Division for heroic battles in the Volokolamsk direction. On November 28, 1941, the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper published an article by correspondent Krivitsky, based on unverified data, “The Testament of 28 Fallen Heroes.” Such an article was necessary at that time. Thus was born the legend of the feat of the 28 Panfilov men on November 16, 1941.

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Lexi3

Evgeniy30

The intelligence data was contradictory and it was not clear from them WHEN they would attack, where the direction of the main attack would be, etc. How do you imagine mobilizing a huge army, closing a border stretching over 1000 kilometers and holding it all together for months, straining the economy?

Yes ...
Well, how did the USSR “tear” its economy by the end of 1941? Can you tell me?
But for some reason Hitler was able to “tear himself” by drawing troops to the border, but the wise Stalin was not?
Question When.
This question was never faced by the conquerors. Naturally, in the best period with the maximum duration of daylight hours. And adjusted for the Blitzkrieg, also when the weather is favorable for aviation and motor transport resources. Can you imagine the beginning of the war on September 22, 1941? or March 22, 1941? I can’t. Apparently you can.
The entire “strain” of the economy occurred in the summer quarter.
And one more thing: Why were there no agents on the railway transport of the Third Reich?
Oh, yes...There were Stirlitz, the Red Chapel and singers with circus performers.
Then yes. I admit it. The USSR had no chance in 1941.

Well, yes, Stalin was, and you are smart. Read some specialized literature so as not to write nonsense. Hitler concentrated the bulk of his troops immediately before the start of the offensive. And if you don’t know when it will be, you’ll go out of your way, you’ll never be 100% ready, for various reasons. Firstly, you need to know the exact date. Secondly, the filling of border fortifications with troops should in this case be about 5 times higher than a possible invading army. And this is not realistic over such a border. Moreover, without knowing the direction of the main attack. Hitler already had an economy mobilized and an army tested in other theaters of war with vast experience of modern warfare. We didn't have that. But putting the economy on a war footing, mobilizing a huge army, is always a risk and huge costs. Not to mention Roosevelt’s statement that “if Germany attacks the USSR, we will help the USSR, and if the USSR attacks Germany or allows itself to be provoked, we will help Germany.” Intelligence did not provide clear data, and so on. Don't read Rezun at night.

[tokens3]

Evgeniy30

Well, yes, Stalin was, and you are smart.

I didn’t seem to be getting personal? No?

Moreover, without knowing the direction of the main attack.

The main blow of the Wehrmacht was delivered in the Belorussian direction, that is, in the ZAPOVO zone.
Well, the Germans, you understand, wanted to have an additional transport lever in the form of a narrow-gauge railway, which was available in the west in the USSR. It was only tsarism that was “backward” - it built railways separately and for itself
I understand. They didn’t see through the “cunning” plan. Gentle Poland laid a mine on the USSR with its roads.
Have you dealt with the main blow?

Not to mention Roosevelt’s statement that “if Germany attacks the USSR, we will help the USSR, and if the USSR attacks Germany or allows itself to be provoked, we will help Germany.”

The United States was absolutely unprepared for war at that time. USA Marine Corps near Leningrad? Let's not talk about fairy tales.

Hitler already had an economy mobilized and an army tested in other theaters of war with vast experience of modern warfare. We didn't have that.

Recall the losses of the Red Army in the Finnish? And in Spain that there were humanitarian convoys? And in China? Khalkin-Gol? Hasan?

But putting the economy on a war footing, mobilizing a huge army, is always a risk and huge costs.

Even the well-known expression under the Tsar, women still give birth...
they simply pale in comparison with your blasphemy.

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Stas57

Quote: Eugene30

It was for veterans that these 28 were a symbol. They identified themselves with them.

What kind of veterans organization do you represent so that you can speak for everyone?

I speak for those with whom I communicated and was personally acquainted. What does organization have to do with it? Yes, and in the memories there is about this. I have not met a single veteran who did not respect this symbol.

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Stas57

Quote: Eugene30

If we destroy it, we will have to destroy others too.

What for?
it must be clearly said - 28 is one thing, the division is another, cadets are third, sappers are four.
and all
This does not in any way affect the heroism of the division. I have already said that this was necessary then, now we can clearly say where, who and when showed heroism, without focusing on the number.
There is no need for hand-wringing or hysterics about this.

Yes, it seems to have been clear for a long time that one does not replace the other. But for some reason you still don’t understand this..... So for now you are experiencing hysterics.

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Stas57

By the way, yes, if you need heroism near Moscow, tell us about the Ilyinsky borders - it’s just a fantastic story!

Good story. But it doesn’t cancel the story about 28, does it? One cannot be opposed to the other, and one does not replace the other.

[Evgeniy30]

Quote: Lexi3

Evgeniy30

Well, yes, Stalin was, and you are smart.

I didn’t seem to be getting personal? No?

Moreover, without knowing the direction of the main attack.

The main blow of the Wehrmacht was delivered in the Belorussian direction, that is, in the ZAPOVO zone.
Well, the Germans, you understand, wanted to have an additional transport lever in the form of a narrow-gauge railway, which was available in the west in the USSR. It was only tsarism that was “backward” - it built railways separately and for itself
I understand. They didn’t see through the “cunning” plan. Gentle Poland laid a mine on the USSR with its roads.
Have you dealt with the main blow?

Not to mention Roosevelt’s statement that “if Germany attacks the USSR, we will help the USSR, and if the USSR attacks Germany or allows itself to be provoked, we will help Germany.”

The United States was absolutely unprepared for war at that time. USA Marine Corps near Leningrad? Let's not talk about fairy tales.

Hitler already had an economy mobilized and an army tested in other theaters of war with vast experience of modern warfare. We didn't have that.

Recall the losses of the Red Army in the Finnish? And in Spain that there were humanitarian convoys? And in China? Khalkin-Gol? Hasan?

But putting the economy on a war footing, mobilizing a huge army, is always a risk and huge costs.

Even the well-known expression under the Tsar, women still give birth...
they simply pale in comparison with your blasphemy.

What kind of kindergarten? You now know the direction of the main attack. And then no one knew this. Neither the direction of the main attack, nor the specific forces, nor the start date, NOTHING.
What does the Finnish war have to do with it? Did the Finns have a modern army equal to the Germans? And in general there is a story there. I still recommend that you study history, not from Rezuny and others, but from documents, so as not to write nonsense in the future, attributing failures to the Soviet leadership.

[tokens3]

Evgeniy30

What kind of kindergarten?

Evgeny, if you don’t understand the essence of what was written, why are you answering? Troll, sir?

What does the Finnish war have to do with it? Did the Finns have a modern army equal to the Germans?

Don’t engage in PR for the Wehrmacht. Quite a lot of people went through the Finnish one with its heavy battles.
By the way: Kolobanov is a participant in the Finnish.
The Wehrmacht infantry was on an equal footing with the Red Army infantry.
Luftwaffe and tank groups, yes. They had significant combat experience.
By the way, you have a bad attitude towards the Finns. Their successes were also recognized by the Germans.

I still recommend studying history,

thanks, you too.

[chenia]

Quote: Stas57

Well, what does Dubosekovo have to do with it, why do they need a dead-end direction if they are successfully operating according to the main principles?

The fact is that the 1st BG (Combat Group - but this is in English) must advance Shiryaevo along the road to the highway and further to Matrenino. And they attack the 4th company (from Nelidovo to Shiryaevo is less than 2 km.) And on the road from Shiryaevo to Matrenino it is 4-4,5 km, but the road was apparently very bad and the Germans did not go there.

And here are the completely incomprehensible actions of the 1st BG (according to reports.) What kind of a parallel strike is this, 0,5-0,3 km from the 2nd BG, crossing the Volokolamsk highway. And this is instead of attacking Matrenino to the right of the highway (which was done, but only on November 17.11), and 2 BGs should attack from the left.

I cited the testimony of the soldier and the colonel independently of each other - there were two fights.

No wonder 1 BG did not pass Peteleno by 10.00 (as reported). Having received a kick at 14.00, we rolled out a bunch of tanks and passed the positions of the 4th company. and since they did not have time to take Matrenino during daylight hours, they came up with the idea that they and the 2nd BG reached Lystsevo (fortunately, the 2nd BG managed this on its own).

And the task of day 1 of the BG is to take MATRENINO (unless, of course, the Germans decided to attack Moscow and not Leningrad).

The 4th company detained them and thwarted their first offensive (and The first violin in this was played by Klochkov’s tank destroyer team).

The division remembered this. and 23-24.11 (i.e. there was time to realize this feat) and reported to Koroteev.

[Old_Python]

I wonder if the fagots... oh-oh!.. "truth-tellers" will calm down after the release of "Panfilov's 28 Men"? Or will they get even more angry?

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Old_Python

I wonder if the fagots... oh-oh!.. "truth-tellers" will calm down after the release of "Panfilov's 28 Men"? Or will they get even more angry?

Oh, I suppose home-grown liberals will commit harakiri of the brain...

[hghg]

It’s still difficult for a company of soldiers to defend against 54 tanks.

[Pomeranian]

It has now become fashionable to engage in revelations, however. Look, they had already exposed themselves, the Poles flew for compensation, but they came across a tree on the way. I repeat that if this feat did not exist, it would have been worth inventing. Especially in the fall of 1941.

[palm]

The country always needs heroes. There are no heroes, no role models. Whether it was a feat or not, the Russian soldier won against all odds. The article debunks the propaganda myth, but not the soldier’s valor.

[Pvi1206]

In battle/war, the strong in spirit win.
To do this, fighters need to be inspired to heroism: first think about the Motherland, and then about yourself. This is best achieved through examples of heroism. In war, the most important thing is the result, not the process. The winners are not judged. If there were any inaccuracies and exaggerations, they served a righteous cause - victory over the enemy. The feat is performed not out of a desire for glory, but in the name of love for a person or the Motherland.

[multikagan]

Here are the demo freaks. Everyone is ready to vulgarize. I recently read A. Bek’s book “Volokolamsk Highway”. A very touching book. The main character of the book is senior lieutenant of the battalion battalion Baurzhan Momysh uly. Here is a man. He raised his fighters to attack 27 times, took them out 5 times from the encirclement in full combat gear. But they were not nominated for an award. You see, the name had to be entered on the award sheet as Momyshev. And Baurzhan Momysh uly refused to distort his data. So he left the army after 25 years of service with the rank of colonel. The book gives the hero’s thoughts about what he is doing now in the Moscow region, why he endures all these hardships of cold and hunger for what.

[Duisenbay Bankankulov]

Baurzhan Momysh-uly was known far beyond the borders of the Union! In 1963, he traveled to Cuba at the invitation of Fidel Castro himself. Even in Israel, A. Beck’s book was translated into Hebrew and given to cadets as a textbook.