Military Review

Archival documents about the exploits of 28 ...

147
But you know yourself: senseless mob
Changeable, rebellious, superstitious,

Easily empty hope betrayed,
To instant suggestion is obedient,
For the truth is deaf and indifferent,
And she feeds on fables.
(Boris Godunov. A.S. Pushkin)


Not so long ago, among the VO publications, there appeared material about Panfilov's heroes, the essence of which is that there are certain eyewitness accounts that these events confirm. However, no one argues with the fact that the division fought heroically. Another thing - the actual "feat 28"! They began to hotly discuss the topic, and some argued that any doubt in its reality was the machinations of the enemies of Russia, while others justly argued that it would be enough to be a rabble that feeds on fables coming down from above to make it easier to rule the people!

Archival documents about the exploits of 28 ...


But remember the ancient philosophers. What did they say and warn about? Confucius said, for example: "Teaching without thinking is useless, but thinking without teaching is dangerous." What does it mean? Yes, very simple! What is the use of arguing on the basis of information from the “OBS Agency” (One woman said) or the DMS (One Man Nabolt), that is, on the basis of incomplete knowledge. How to check this "man" or this "woman"? That is, in order to speak out on the merits, you need to at least know him, and not at the level of a school textbook, but at the level of ... let's say - quite authoritative and deep, that is, at least read the original source: articles in the newspaper Red Star and Truth. However, this source also represents in this case a purely historiographic document, after all, this was written by a journalist, whom we must also believe in the word! But we believe, because it is understood that there are documents, numbers and facts behind the journalist’s words that you can go and check if you wish. That is, the documents stored where? In the archive! Moreover, the archive archive strife. There are local archives, where very often there is a lack of documents and there are central ones, where storage is delivered in a completely different way.

We have become fashionable to repeat the catchphrase phrase: “things in the studio,” which, however, is not bad at all. Because it indicates that people have become smarter and only one word is no longer trusted. As they say - "trust, but verify." That is, they need numbers of archival files, photocopies of documents - in a word, everything is as it should be! And I must say that such a test, even in the 1948 year, that is, in strict Stalin times, was taken up by the USSR Military Prosecutor’s Office. Reasons for checking information about the "feat 28" she had. Without reason (and serious!), Such a thing would not have started at that time.
Well, the result of its verification was a document that I would like to bring on the VO pages, moreover, in the form of photocopies, that is, as if they themselves were in one of the most important archives of the country and saw this business with their own eyes.
















Well, the conclusion ... The conclusion is this: all the secret someday always becomes obvious. But the particular, albeit in something unsightly, does not negate the general, of which this private has always been more at times! In 1948, they still did not understand this, they believed that the “sweet lie” was nicer, more useful than the bitter truth, and thus laid the “information bomb” under our present time in a certain sense. Naturally, there were immediately the people who took advantage of this, using the demagogic method of generalization. Well, everyone came across this too: “All workers are drunkards!”, “All officials are thieves!”, “All teachers take bribes!” And so on, although, in theory, everyone should understand that this is impossible in principle. And just as it is necessary to understand that the truth about the “feat of 28” of the very feat of our people does not diminish at all and does not cancel, because this is just a particular that it would be completely wrong to generalize!
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  1. Gunxnumx
    Gunxnumx 31 December 2015 06: 45 New
    16
    They say that even among the 12 apostles there was one Judas. What else do you add?
    1. Disant
      Disant 31 December 2015 12: 53 New
      +1
      pages are not all. only "needed"
      1. oracul
        oracul 1 January 2016 11: 20 New
        +2
        What do you need? There is a conclusion and this is important. Or are you a professional reading between the lines?
    2. The comment was deleted.
  2. VOLOD
    VOLOD 31 December 2015 07: 31 New
    43
    it doesn’t matter 28-30 the fact of the battle of a company with tanks outnumbering the company itself in person. the feat of fighters is also not disputed. The heroic defense of Moscow by Pavfilov’s division is also in no doubt. and according to this, "truth-seekers" trying to humiliate the greatness of the heroic deed of heroes who did not spare their lives for their homeland would be better off stumbling.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 2 January 2016 04: 21 New
      +1
      This is what is called on the forehead, on the forehead. Yes, there was no battle between the company and the tanks, there was no battle of the whole division, as a result of which the accounts were recorded and the Germans were written off the tanks.
      1. CHILD
        CHILD 4 January 2016 21: 34 New
        +3
        t [quote = EvilLion] This is what is called on the forehead, on the forehead. Yes, there was no battle between a company and tanks, there was, there was a battle of a whole division, as a result of which they were recorded on the account, and the Germans were written off tanks. [/ Q .... you are interesting to be among the surviving 4 companies .... you they would say the same .... I didn’t know Panfilov’s by last name ... except for Klochkov ... and what does it change for me?! ... did my ancestors die by chance?! ... I don’t know exactly all the fallen in that war, but firmly convinced they were worthy people ... and the rest is now God the judge ...
    2. tokens3
      tokens3 2 January 2016 09: 58 New
      0
      VOLOD
      and according to this, "truth seekers" who are trying to humiliate the greatness of the heroic deed of heroes who have not spared their lives for their homeland, are better off stumbling.

      There are no lackeys respected here. Did you learn from the censor?
      I would replace the "truth-seekers" in your comment with "mine-seekers".
      It will be more true laughing
      Another fan of giving the Wehrmacht with sticks and grenades.
      Mikhalkov forever
    3. dzeredzavkomimu
      dzeredzavkomimu 5 January 2016 01: 48 New
      +1
      I completely agree, let this remain a symbol of the heroism of all those who fell for their homeland
  3. regul10108
    regul10108 31 December 2015 07: 32 New
    29
    What a difference, how many soldiers were in the company that got in the way of the enemy’s tanks at Dubosekov! The main thing is that Dubosekov’s 5th company fought to death with an overwhelmingly superior enemy, that almost all died, but did not miss the enemy and didn’t retreat, having fulfilled their military duty to the end, that they were Panfilov’s and defended Moscow and their whole country! And if in our memory this feat remained a feat of 28 Panfilov’s, then so be it! This feat is not just a feat of a certain number of soldiers who died, but did not miss the enemy, but it is a feat and sacrifice of all the defenders of Moscow in the unbearably difficult conditions of the first year of the war. And, in spite of everything, I will tell my grandchildren about the feat of 28, as about the feat of the whole nation and will undoubtedly lead them to a film that is shot about these heroes! For example, the myths of ancient Greece brought up more than one hundred years, but no one distorts them and does not get to the bottom of some truth. This is where the main question arises: AND WHO NEEDS THIS SO CALLED TRUE?
    1. Nikolay K
      Nikolay K 31 December 2015 09: 20 New
      -2
      Have you read the documents? 6 people died and the company retreated to new positions, for which the commander was temporarily suspended. The number of wrecked tanks is not reported at all. A completely ordinary battle, everything else is an artistic invention of journalists.
      1. pv1005
        pv1005 31 December 2015 09: 56 New
        13
        Quote: Nikolai K
        Have you read the documents? 6 people died and the company retreated to new positions, for which the commander was temporarily suspended. The number of wrecked tanks is not reported at all. A completely ordinary battle, everything else is an artistic invention of journalists.

        It is a pity that Bruce Lee was born after WWII, otherwise he would have captured Omaha's landing zone in one hat and saved all ordinary Ryan. And this would not be the invention of journalists.
        PS Do you hear yourself? Six soldiers died only in this battle, so that you would live now, and not wave the Kyle in a quarry for a piece of bread (and this is at best).
        1. Nikolay K
          Nikolay K 31 December 2015 11: 51 New
          +2
          Do you hear yourself? Surrendered to a prisoner at the intersection Dubosekovo and became a policeman is given the title of hero of the Soviet Union with the fantasies of some journalist. Is this not a spit on the real heroes of the great war, who perished unknowingly, defending their homeland?
          1. pv1005
            pv1005 31 December 2015 12: 31 New
            +1
            Quote: Nikolai K
            Do you hear yourself? Surrendered to a prisoner at the intersection Dubosekovo and became a policeman is given the title of hero of the Soviet Union with the fantasies of some journalist. Is this not a spit on the real heroes of the great war, who perished unknowingly, defending their homeland?

            And where does the traitor? There is a special conversation with traitors, the execution is called. Here a man is touched that only six died, and not like 28, and on this basis dismisses the very feat of the defenders of the Motherland. Something like this.
            And it is not necessary in the conversation about the event itself, to wedge the clinging traitors.
            1. Nikolay K
              Nikolay K 31 December 2015 12: 52 New
              +8
              Apparently, you also like to conjecture and fantasize like those same journalists. Have you read the documents? Or, as usual, I didn’t read it, but I condemn it. Where do I cancel the feat of the defenders of the fatherland? I said that it was a fairly ordinary battle, which at that time and later went on thousands. They fought millions of our heroes. But thanks to the invention of journalists, fighters of one unit, all indiscriminately, including even traitors, were declared heroes. For me, it’s foolish to worship a fictitious feat when there were a huge number of REAL heroes in the war.
              1. pv1005
                pv1005 31 December 2015 14: 29 New
                0
                Quote: Nikolai K
                Apparently, you also like to conjecture and fantasize like those same journalists. Have you read the documents? Or, as usual, I didn’t read it, but I condemn it. Where do I cancel the feat of the defenders of the fatherland? I said that it was a fairly ordinary battle, which at that time and later went on thousands. They fought millions of our heroes. But thanks to the invention of journalists, fighters of one unit, all indiscriminately, including even traitors, were declared heroes. For me, it’s foolish to worship a fictitious feat when there were a huge number of REAL heroes in the war.

                Where do you cancel the feat, yes here:
                Quote: Nikolai K
                Killed 6 people and the company retreated to new positions, for which the commander was temporarily suspended. The number of wrecked tanks is not reported at all. Absolutely ordinary battle

                For some, this was the first and last fight in his life, but this is not a feat, just one fight.
                Quote: Nikolai K
                I said that it was a fairly ordinary battle, which at that time and later went on thousands.

                A battle cannot be ordinary or not, it happens that they kill, and death is always not an ordinary event (at least for the relatives of the deceased).
                Quote: Nikolai K
                For me, it’s foolish to worship a fictitious feat when there were a huge number of REAL heroes in the war.

                And what and to whom did this “invented” feat specifically harm ???
                Quote: Nikolai K
                when the war was a huge number of REAL heroes.

                That is, from your point of view, these dead are not real heroes ??? Well then there’s nothing more to talk about. hi
                1. poquello
                  poquello 1 January 2016 12: 57 New
                  +3
                  Quote: pv1005
                  And what and to whom did this “invented” feat specifically harm ???

                  The USSR damaged my homeland and contributed to the collapse of a powerful country. It was that drop that, among many, sharpened faith in the country's leadership.
              2. pv1005
                pv1005 31 December 2015 14: 45 New
                +5
                Quote: Nikolai K
                But thanks to the invention of journalists, fighters of one unit, all indiscriminately, including even traitors, were declared heroes.

                The commander of the 2nd shock army, General Vlasov, went over to the side of the enemy, according to your logic, all those awarded in the 2nd UA should be deprived of their awards, just as the commander is a traitor. However, despite this shameful fact in the Combat History of the Army, she continued OWN (separate from the traitor) the valiant Combat Path to victory in 1945. So, if someone got involved in the heroes, it was calculated, put out in the open, and eventually got what he deserved. And the rewarding of this **** in no way can serve as an occasion to denigrate and diminish the merits of the others.
                1. Nikolay K
                  Nikolay K 2 January 2016 16: 17 New
                  +2
                  Once again I ask, have you read the documents? Some journalist, without even bothering to come to the battlefield, or at least in part, writes an article about the exploit of 28 heroes. The article was a complete fiction. Later, due to the fact that the article was highly resonant, they prepared lists of 28 heroes for awarding, even without really understanding and including the names of several fighters who surrendered. The described battle was neither 28 Panfilov’s nor a whole company. There was an article in a red star, later dressed in the form of a work of art. And to give credibility, prepared award lists.
              3. severniy
                severniy 31 December 2015 21: 40 New
                +5
                Have you read the documents? Killed 6 people
                Quote: Nikolai K
                Apparently, you also like to conjecture and fantasize like those same journalists. Have you read the documents? Or, as usual, I didn’t read it, but I condemn it. Where do I cancel the feat of the defenders of the fatherland? I said that it was a fairly ordinary battle, which at that time and later went on thousands. They fought millions of our heroes. But thanks to the invention of journalists, fighters of one unit, all indiscriminately, including even traitors, were declared heroes. For me, it’s foolish to worship a fictitious feat when there were a huge number of REAL heroes in the war.

                maybe you didn’t read everything ??? what is the stub of an ordinary battle? and what are 6 fighters? !!!!
                1. Nikolay K
                  Nikolay K 2 January 2016 16: 41 New
                  -1
                  Actually, the article originally wrote about the battle of the 5 company. Then came the 4 company. The testimony you provided was given by the regiment commander Koprov. But the senior battalion commissar Minin writes that the regiment, under pressure from superior enemy forces, suffered heavy losses and retreated to new positions, for which this very Koprov regiment was temporarily removed from office. Nothing was heard about the battle of the 28 Guards then and this was the fiction of a journalist. At the battlefield, 6 bodies of the dead were found, including political instructor Klochkov.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. mervino2007
            mervino2007 1 January 2016 23: 48 New
            +3
            Quote: Nikolai K
            become a policeman give the title of hero

            A huge overstrain near Moscow in November of the 41st. The fighters, by chance, who fell into the zone of this collision, behaved differently. They were different in physical strength, endurance, and moral condition. The vast majority of them fought a deadly battle with the enemy. Some of these fighters died, some survived. They are all heroes. Because they fought with the enemy, realizing that they were participating in a decisive battle for life. The overwhelming minority, of those who fell into this mess, tried to save their lives, although EVERYONE wanted to live. Part surrendered, part died. It can be assumed that someone deserted, although I did not hear about such cases. How to evaluate all this? In any life situation of such a high intensity, there are STRONG and weak spirit. In general, the ratio of those and others showed the result of the battle of Moscow. Ours won the battle, defeated the Germans. Strong in spirit turned out to be much more. Weak - cowards, obvious traitors, broken, weakened to exhaustion fighters, much less. This is the main result. And it doesn’t matter what the company name was - the fourth or fifth, how many fighters it specifically was - 28 or a hundred, the fact is important - at the cost of inhuman efforts, at the cost of their lives, enemy tanks were stopped at this section of the clashes. The same thing happened in all other sectors of the front, despite the superiority of the enemy in technology. It can be assumed that, in establishing the facts - who is the hero and who is the traitor - there were mistakes. But these, we know for sure, were rare cases. No need to make an elephant out of a fly. Over time - everything secret becomes apparent. And you need to protect your heroes from the stupid, and sometimes deliberate interpretation of known facts upstarts-gorlopans.
        2. pv1005
          pv1005 31 December 2015 19: 49 New
          0
          Quote: pv1005
          Quote: Nikolai K
          Have you read the documents? 6 people died and the company retreated to new positions, for which the commander was temporarily suspended. The number of wrecked tanks is not reported at all. A completely ordinary battle, everything else is an artistic invention of journalists.

          It is a pity that Bruce Lee was born after WWII, otherwise he would have captured Omaha's landing zone in one hat and saved all ordinary Ryan. And this would not be the invention of journalists.
          PS Do you hear yourself? Six soldiers died only in this battle, so that you would live now, and not wave the Kyle in a quarry for a piece of bread (and this is at best).

          All the same, Bruce Willis was originally meant, not Bruce Lee. yes Tupanul Maltsa. repeat
      2. BMP-2
        BMP-2 31 December 2015 12: 22 New
        +4
        Again twenty-five. am
        1) Since when photographed funny pictures are proof of something?
        2) Where is the evidence that the source data is reliable? The specified scribble does not answer the question of who stopped the tanks. But the tanks, indeed, did not pass to Moscow. And it is a FACT!
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. Disant
        Disant 31 December 2015 12: 44 New
        +9
        penultimate page: Kaprov regiment: "The 4th company fought heroically, more than 100 people died from the company"
        In the rifle company of 1941, the total number of staff in the state is 178 people.
        the remaining third of the surviving regiment moved to new frontiers. Nikolai K - what else is there to prove?
        and, probably, to explain the difference between ordinary combat and non-ordinary combat? in the extraordinary of 178 Panfilov’s, everyone would have laid down.
        1. Nikolay K
          Nikolay K 3 January 2016 08: 59 New
          -2
          This kompolka itself supported artistic fiction with pleasure, probably also wanted to curry favor. True, when the military prosecutor's office began to check how traitors were on the lists of heroes, he blamed everything on the deceased commander of the 4 company. In fact, according to official reports for THREE days of battles, the WHOLE 1075 Regiment knocked out the 4 tank.
      5. orthodox71
        orthodox71 1 January 2016 00: 54 New
        +4
        What does it change, did the Germans capture the capital? So in another place they did not retreat. And there were always referring correspondents who were afraid to see with their own eyes. From this, the real picture does not change. Well: big seen in the distance
      6. maiman
        maiman 1 January 2016 21: 09 New
        +4
        but the tanks did not pass
    2. Stas57
      Stas57 31 December 2015 11: 56 New
      13
      Quote: regul10108
      AND WHO NEEDS THIS SO CALLED TRUE?

      To me,
      I’ll tell the story of sappers,
      The defense of the central, most responsible site was entrusted to a platoon of sappers under the command of junior lieutenant Pyotr Firstov. With him was a junior political instructor Aleksey Pavlov and an assistant platoon commander Aleksey Zubkov. In addition to them, there were eight sappers in the group: Pavel Sinegovsky, Gleb Ulchenko (he was seriously wounded, he was saved by local residents. He died in the 1943 year), Vasily Semenov, Prokofiy Kalyuzhny, Erofei Dovzhuk, Vasily Manyushin, Petr Genievsky and Sergeant Daniil Materkin [3 ]. On November 18 on November 1941, at about 10 in the morning, the enemy troops began a breakthrough in the direction of the Firstov group’s defense position. For five hours, sappers managed to restrain the enemy, despite its numerical superiority and support for tanks. “Hero-sappers all fell to one in this battle, but for five hours delayed the advancement of the enemy! Exactly as much as it took the 1077 rifle regiment to retreat and secure at a new frontier, ”wrote V. I. Markov [316], chief of artillery of the 4 division, later in his memoirs.


      Then I’ll tell you how the “heroic First Guards” escaped, having barefooted everything, leaving Panfilov’s infantry to die alone.


      Then I will tell how this same division pushed the enemy, sparing no one.


      And about 28, I’ll say that yes, it was necessary to raise our spirits at this difficult moment, but now we all know about heroes and traitors. And who really defended Moscow.
      That's what I’ll say, and there will be no disaster.
      1. Disant
        Disant 31 December 2015 12: 48 New
        +4
        I am waiting for your answer to the fudge above
        1. pv1005
          pv1005 31 December 2015 12: 54 New
          +4
          Quote: Disant
          I am waiting for your answer to the fudge above

          Unfortunately (or maybe vice versa) there will be no answer. This is a standard govnovbros. they threw you and you are also to blame, and they gentlemen should take their word for it.
        2. Stas57
          Stas57 31 December 2015 13: 32 New
          11
          I already answered below, more than 100 people died, 4 tanks were destroyed.
          There are nothing about any 20 tanks / 28 panfilovtsev.
          1075 itself was supported by tanks and artillery, there are reports of various levels (regimental, division) and not a word about the 20 tanks and 28 Panfilov’s there is not a word, the Germans have the same silence.

          Ps
          What do you think this is about?
          On the table was the number of the magazine, where an essay about Panfilov’s, about the soldiers of the same regiment commanded by Baurjan Momysh-Ula, was printed.
          He sharply pushed the magazine to the lamp — all his movements were sharp, even when he threw a match, lit a cigarette — flipped over, bent over the open page and dropped it.
          - I can’t read! He said. - In the war I read a book written not in ink but in blood. After such a book, compositions are unbearable to me. What can you write?
          I tried to argue, but Baurjan Momysh-Ula was adamant.
          - Not! He snapped. “I hate lying, and you will not write the truth.”
          (c) Beck A.A. Volokolamsk highway.


          Pps
          Nothing to say.
          Again, the circumstances of the feat of the USSR Chief Military Prosecutor's Office was engaged in 1988, as a result of which the chief military prosecutor, Lieutenant-General of Justice A. F. Katusev published in the Military History Journal (1990, No. 8-9) the article “Alien Glory”. In it, he concluded that “The massive feat of the entire company, the entire regiment, the entire division by the irresponsibility of not entirely conscientious journalists was downplayed to the scale of a mythical platoon”
      2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Max_Bauder
      Max_Bauder 31 December 2015 13: 02 New
      +9
      As recently as a military historian Klim Zhukov on Dmitry Puchkov’s “Goblin” program, he said that they had found the place of the Kulikovo battle, and it was confirmed that the battle had taken place, it also turned out that there were few troops on both sides, but the Russians competently won the battle against Mamaia. Archaeologist and historian Oleg Dvurechensky described all of this, the armor, the course of the battle, artifacts well in his book. So, if myths and legends exist among the people, they are not taken from the sick imagination of the head of an individual person, but have real historical roots, albeit completely exaggerated.
    4. Alekseev
      Alekseev 31 December 2015 19: 02 New
      +6
      Quote: regul10108
      Who cares how many warriors were in the company,

      Quote: regul10108
      WHO NEEDS THIS SO CALLED TRUE?

      That way you can walk a lot ...
      Scribes do not need to give free rein (and special faith).
      He, this correspondent of the Red Star, is not a feat of gene warriors. Panfilov glorified, and built his career under a plausible pretext. And the truth came out and served the enemies of Russia in their propaganda after decades.
      Here recently a similar babble was published in an article about the Marine Corps.
      PS
      And all else else
      Do not live for sure -
      Without which? Without the truth
      Truth right into the beating soul
      If it were thicker
      No matter how bitter.
    5. orthodox71
      orthodox71 1 January 2016 00: 48 New
      +9
      No one has ever seen or identified Eupath Kolovrat, but he lives bylina.
      My grandfather disappeared near Moscow and he was in the very Far Eastern and Siberian divisions that grind the Germans. The grandfather’s feat cannot be retouched, but it’s worthless for us to delve into the little things. It is necessary to honor and it doesn’t matter where it was, under Dubosekovo or elsewhere. One way or another, and the outcome of the war is known, and it was achieved, including the lives of the fallen near Moscow.

      Happy New Year everyone!
      1. Kaiten
        Kaiten 2 January 2016 10: 35 New
        +2
        Quote: orthodox71
        My grandfather disappeared near Moscow and he was in the very Far Eastern and Siberian divisions that grind the Germans. The grandfather’s feat cannot be retouched, but it’s worthless for us to delve into the little things.

        Gozhe, Gozhe delve into the little things. My grandfather also fought near Moscow as part of the Moscow militia and survived with a grave wound by a miracle. It is necessary to understand whose memory to honor. The real heroes who still lie in the unknown graves or policemen included in the award lists. Understand this.
  4. Fitter65
    Fitter65 31 December 2015 07: 42 New
    18
    And the fire ram of Nikolai Gastello, and nine shot down planes by A. Gorovets are myths and legends of the war, that brutal war in which A. Gorvets and the crew of the DB-3f bomber under the command of Nikolai Gastello died. They died protecting their homeland, let them the death was not really as “beautiful” as the correspondents said, but they went to destroy the enemy without thinking about whether they would die beautifully or not, the main thing for them was to PROTECT YOUR COUNTRY. And as one journalist said, let there be no ramming, there was a feat ... Thank you to everyone who lives today, and to those who went into immortality and remained forever young. Thank them for what I can say today- "HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!!!
  5. semirek
    semirek 31 December 2015 08: 00 New
    23
    BUT someone stopped these tanks, not these, so the other 28 heroes. In the war, no one wondered if my exploits would go down in history and if I would receive a reward - this was not a life but death war. Panfilov’s division, two of these Panfilov’s heroes lived in our town. After Kazakhstan gained independence, it seemed that the theme of the Second World War would come to naught there, but to the surprise, it was expanding and uniting our peoples, because Kazakhs fought shoulder to shoulder with the Russians our united Motherland - the Soviet Union! Glory to the Panfilov fellow countrymen!
  6. parusnik
    parusnik 31 December 2015 08: 08 New
    +6
    "If you remove all the lies from history, this does not mean at all that only the truth will remain - as a result, nothing may remain at all." Stanislav Jerzy Lets.
  7. timyr
    timyr 31 December 2015 08: 11 New
    +8
    Well, another refutation. Refute then the myth of the 300th Spartans. There were not 300 of them, but 5000 and not only the Spartans remained dying, but they remember and write about 300 Spartans.
  8. brasist
    brasist 31 December 2015 08: 23 New
    +6
    Even if it’s a little embellished, but they broke the ridge to the Nazis and when they found out about the heroic deeds of the heroes, they took an example from them and after that there were quite a few Marosovs, Panfilovites, Gastello. And Judas and other scum at all times lacked at least the fifth column, choose at least anyone.


    1. brasist
      brasist 31 December 2015 08: 25 New
      +4
      HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
  9. Boris55
    Boris55 31 December 2015 08: 59 New
    +6
    A spoon of tar spoils a barrel of honey
    Life is diverse and diverse. It all depends on which side to look at a particular event and how to present it. Who concentrates on what. Some, except for small traitors, do not see the feat of the others, which contribute to the appearance of betrayal in the future. Others - to the immortal feat of the majority, which contribute to the preservation of our country in time. Do you need to know about the traitors and how they ended their lives - it is necessary, but do not focus on them, do not dig the grave of your country.

    All a Happy!
  10. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 31 December 2015 09: 04 New
    +5
    The USSR won the Victory! In this Victory the feat of the Heroes-Panfilov forever!
    . Like other readers, I don’t know, but I think that anyone who wanted to cheat immediately figured out how to do it. Enemies and traitors always behaved this way at all times.
    It is good that the author took photographs of the documents.
  11. V.ic
    V.ic 31 December 2015 09: 10 New
    +4
    The heroostratus also smacked himself into history, as did his modern followers from among the shit-kings, preoccupied with "sculpting" history from their own "manure."
  12. Mareman Vasilich
    Mareman Vasilich 31 December 2015 09: 15 New
    +1
    Another digger was found. They got tired, worse than the bitter radish, with the mind of juvenile deb.i.lov.
    1. Silhouette
      Silhouette 31 December 2015 10: 02 New
      +4
      True - it is sometimes worse than a bitter radish. But she is the truth. And everything else is from another opera. Myths are needed. But they do not cancel the truth. Real heroes remain nameless, and monuments are put up to invented ones. Front-line soldiers did not always believe in official heroes. They didn’t want to hear about Matrosov, but about those who were tied up with grenades and threw themselves under German tanks, they only waved away their hand, they didn’t even find words with the children.
  13. semirek
    semirek 31 December 2015 09: 53 New
    12
    And what truth do we need and why? Yes, I agree, there was order 227, there were also foreign detachments, but there was a feat and a simple Soviet (not necessarily Russian) soldier, lieutenant, general. Sometimes the feat is to throw a bunch of grenades, at the cost of life under the tracks of a German tank --- watch the movie again soldiers came, and sometimes to the deep rear, at the cost of the five girls who stopped the superior German special forces ("the dawns here are quiet") and these were not fiction - the writers were just lieutenants at that time. feat of General Karbyshev? All this is the tip of the iceberg, which is called: the feat of a Russian soldier in the name of victory, and how many forgotten exploits, unknown, which we will never know. By the way, he has been making a film about 28 Panfilov’s for several years, an unknown director, without any budget, for donations - Isn’t it a feat, in our time, to talk about the heroic past.
    Eternal memory to the fallen heroes!
    1. alstr
      alstr 31 December 2015 12: 17 New
      +9
      And there is the film "Silence" with the song "At an unnamed height" with a similar plot for 28 Panfilov’s. At the same time, this film is based on real (with this documented battle). It was only this battle in September 43. And if it were not for article 28 of the Panfilov’s, there could have been no such battle and many other similar ones.

      How many such fights were
      "At an unfamiliar village,
      At an unnamed height. "?
  14. pv1005
    pv1005 31 December 2015 10: 26 New
    +6
    The feat is accomplished in a short (often very short) period of time, and during this period of time a person has no time to think about how to properly document their actions. He said beautifully or not very well, he fell right or not, and what they will say later, good or bad, or maybe he should not risk his life for the sake of some unknown person. Then zhurnoshlyushki begin to think about it and those who are not a priori ready for a feat, but trample in the mud the hero’s honest name (if known) forever please.
  15. YakimovSS
    YakimovSS 31 December 2015 10: 28 New
    +5
    Yes, even fiction, but how many people were inspired by this fiction?
    And what did those who shout about this fiction do for Russia?
  16. surrozh
    surrozh 31 December 2015 10: 43 New
    +2
    Many knowledge - many sorrows. Well, historians would know about 28 Panfilov’s, and they would know for ourselves, we have other knowledge, and with this knowledge the heroes were brought up, why raise this dregs.
    1. pv1005
      pv1005 31 December 2015 10: 54 New
      +8
      Quote: surozh
      Many knowledge - many sorrows. Well, historians would know about 28 Panfilov’s, and they would know for ourselves, we have other knowledge, and with this knowledge the heroes were brought up, why raise this dregs.

      Well, as you do not understand. These "creams" of humanity open your eyes to you, they tell the true truth. After all, you, with your "wrong" knowledge, live in darkness, and they lead you to the "bright", STSUKI. am
    2. GRAY
      GRAY 31 December 2015 11: 26 New
      10
      Quote: surozh
      why raise this dregs.

      They lay the seed of doubt so that later it would be easier to denigrate all the victories of the Soviet people in general and at the same time repaint Comrade Stalin as unambiguous Satan.
      Then they will slowly begin to suggest that the USA and the Allies won the war, and the Soviet government committed only crimes and the citizens of the Russian Federation should be ashamed of it.
      Therefore, these citizens should fall into the legs of the Great Western World-conqueror and repent, repent, repent ...
  17. Stas57
    Stas57 31 December 2015 10: 52 New
    0
    What again, and on the new year?
    Well, I’ve already discussed a thousand times.
    The feat of division is undeniable, they fought, by the standards of 41, well, a lot of interesting tricks.
    The story about 28 is muddy, most likely this is a plexus of the real feat of sappers (Monument to 11 heroes of sappers “Explosion” - a monument in honor of the feat of 11 heroes of sappers of the 8 Guards Rifle Division, General I.V. Panfilovhttps: //ru.wikipedia.org / wiki / Explosion_ (monument)) and retelling.
    The story itself is not indicated anywhere, and nowhere in the documents of the Germans does it pass here.
    Believe it or not
  18. dorward
    dorward 31 December 2015 10: 55 New
    10
    My children also know about the exploit of the Panfilovites. And I hope their children will know. It's not a few people. The matter is the feat of our multinational people. How many feats accomplished disinterestedly by a Soviet person, we will never know. Our ancestors really fought like that, on every corner of the front and in the rear. 14-year-old children worked at the cartridge factories to help fathers, who lay down a bunch of grenades under the tanks. What are we talking about here? About the episode? There are millions of them, heroic episodes of the war, From which we will choose?

    Happy New Year to all visitors and administrators! Protect the memory of victory, dignity and honor!
  19. Maksim
    Maksim 31 December 2015 11: 08 New
    10
    For me and my children, there were and are 28 Panfilovites and the Leningrad Zoo in Bolokada, and my Grandfather, wounded on the Kursk Bulge, and Grandfather of my wife, who reached Vienna. I know that in that war there were such feats that "artistic fiction" could not describe.
    All members of the forum Happy New Year!
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 31 December 2015 18: 23 New
      +1
      Article about the Leningrad Zoo 14 .10. My poems for the article from 23.10. "What did the children play after the war." I hope you enjoy it.
  20. Cap.Morgan
    Cap.Morgan 31 December 2015 11: 56 New
    -7
    Sovinformburo destroyed a hundred times more tanks than was released by the Germans.
    Of course, if there were massive heroism of the whole nation, the Germans would never have reached Moscow. There were serious miscalculations from the high command.
    But it was necessary to raise the spirit of the people, and different stories were invented, because the situation at the front was difficult. There were no troops to cover the main areas.
    The question is not whether there was a feat or not.
    There were many feats of unknown heroes who were not included in any encyclopedia about the war. So now there is no difference, well, not these made a feat, because there were others. Not everywhere was a camera and a correspondent at hand. The main thing is that we defended our state.
  21. Noisy
    Noisy 31 December 2015 12: 18 New
    16
    The regiment commander "run in tanks" practiced with us. The standard exercise - went to the trench - drove the tank up, turned around, threw a grenade into the engine compartment. So, we did not have tanks, there were BTR-80. And although I knew that Vovka, the commander of the security platoon, was sitting behind the steering wheel of this papellets, and he was a recognized master of driving this piece of iron in the district, but I never felt such fear. Even when I went out into the sky from a normally flying vehicle in low clouds. I’m even afraid to think if there was a tank, and behind the arms there was a man who, with all the fibers of his soul, wanted to rub me into the frozen ground with trucks. Eternal memory to the heroes!
    1. Megatron
      Megatron 3 January 2016 07: 04 New
      +1
      Yeah, only the Germans often didn’t drive through the trenches just like that, but turned on them, ironed them with caterpillars trying to grind our soldiers.
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 3 January 2016 09: 30 New
        0
        Quote: Megatron
        Yeah, only the Germans often didn’t drive through the trenches just like that, but turned on them, ironed them with caterpillars trying to grind our soldiers.

        this is nonsense for the movie
        no tanker will rotate the tank, substituting side armor under the PTO
        1. Megatron
          Megatron 3 January 2016 17: 07 New
          +2
          I personally read in books about the war, memoirs and more than once.
          1. Stas57
            Stas57 3 January 2016 17: 55 New
            +1
            Quote: Megatron
            I personally read in books about the war, memoirs and more than once.

            a memoir, it’s not an instruction, not a charter, not a recommendation, but rather a slander about “as I showed everyone.”
  22. okroshka79
    okroshka79 31 December 2015 12: 24 New
    12
    The truth about the events of those days is very well described in the book of Alexander Beck "Volokolamsk highway." There is no fiction in it, because it was written under the dictation of the commander of the battalion of Panfilov’s Hero of the Soviet Union Baurjan Momysh-ula. I strongly advise those who have not read this book to read. A very strong book! They say that it was used as a teaching aid in the military institutions of Great Britain. I congratulate all members of the forum on the upcoming New Year with best wishes!
    1. Cap.Morgan
      Cap.Morgan 31 December 2015 18: 50 New
      0
      A stronger book, "In the Trenches of Stalingrad," by Nekrasov.
      1. V.ic
        V.ic 31 December 2015 19: 44 New
        +1
        Quote: Cap.Morgan
        A stronger book, "In the Trenches of Stalingrad," by Nekrasov.

        Strength, strength, strength, strength ... He had strength when his mother wore it! Why did this God's servant, skinned, jump to your British brothers?
    2. V.ic
      V.ic 31 December 2015 19: 40 New
      +2
      Quote: okroshka79
      I strongly advise those who have not read this book, be sure to read

      Read. Hard. Sometimes offensive, but correct. A. Beck "Volokolamsk highway". Our army at that moment was learning to counteract the "Wehrmacht machine." It must be remembered that Panfilov’s division was essentially the formation of MILITARY / non-personnel.
  23. Colonel
    Colonel 31 December 2015 12: 35 New
    +7
    I would like to answer both the author of the article and his "accomplices" in my own words, but better than Goblin, I will not do this. Listen to the end lovers of truth.
    1. tokens3
      tokens3 1 January 2016 17: 35 New
      +2
      Unfortunately, it was not possible to successfully "attach" to the goblin interview
      Anti-tank flying mine of LMГ laughing
      as a New Year's surprise.
      What is known about IP Galitsky? The creator of the "mine"?
      Major General of the Engineering Troops I.P. Galitsky, who in October 1941 near Moscow commanded the operational-engineering group of obstacles.
      So ... the journalists are not to blame. They covered up, so to speak, a "legend" of a rather effective way of fighting tanks. So they say, they threw grenades at the hero’s side.
      BUT! So many years have passed!
      How much journalistic legends can be made on this legend!
      When you hear about the Americans landing on the moon, humble yourself. Eat a bagel. Myths must be trusted.
      When you read about the outstanding exploits of the pilots and tankers of the Third Reich, calm down. Do not panic. Get in the internet 28 Panfilovites. It will become easier for you.
      It's a shame gentlemen. It's just a shame. To fool people with Hollywood stories.
      Not our it. Not Russian. Alien.
      All the year 2016! A year that will open people's eyes to much. But as they say ...
      that's another story.
  24. Leader
    Leader 31 December 2015 12: 38 New
    +4
    And it all began, as usual, with the invention of a journalist, eagerly picked up and carried by the political department ... All the initiators were not at the front line and were not close, the rats were rear!
    I do not need such myths; let's get the truth!
    Millions of Soviet people fought (and both of my grandfathers), daily committing their personal exploits - and all fifty of the same stories tell me all their lives; each of which, as it turns out, is a fiction to one degree or another ...
    Do not lie! - and there will be no reason for further "sensational revelations" and "journalistic investigations."
    No need to tell tales again about “28 Panfilovites” - talk about the heavy and bloody battles of the entire regiment, division, army!
    Bypassing me, you continue the rotten work of Krivitsky and Co., creating a lie about the war!
    Therefore, there is still no "History of the Great Patriotic War" in Russia! For 70 years - only mountains of waste paper, regularly rewritten again ...
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Disant
      Disant 31 December 2015 13: 13 New
      +2
      leader, you forgive me, but the post of Mareman Vasilich (above) with respect to the article under discussion is about you.
      1. Silhouette
        Silhouette 31 December 2015 14: 53 New
        0
        And about you it is written in the epigraph of this article.
        1. Disant
          Disant 1 January 2016 12: 52 New
          +1
          the epigraph itself to this article is a provocation, just like the article itself
          silhouette, thanks for the epigraph. I will continue to eat fables and remain deaf to the oblique facts from this article. All the same, Mareman Vasilyevich correctly said. I would even add the word -belligerent
          1. Silhouette
            Silhouette 1 January 2016 16: 42 New
            +1
            Sergei Vasilievich, just like you, does not understand the difference between natural historical myth-making and propaganda.
    3. V.ic
      V.ic 31 December 2015 20: 10 New
      +2
      Quote: Leader
      I do not need such myths; let's get the truth!

      "Wellcome" "oops" new year, yellow shoes! "Where were you, where did you spend the night, with whom did you spend the night in the dark?" To flog such "truth-loving" reins = the hand will be taken away. Ask your "owners" ::: why in a year and a half will turn 30 (thirty) years of the "suicide" of Rudolf Hess and almost 75 years (after 4 months) of his flight to GB, and archival documents, despite the expiration of all aglitsky terms of secrecy not published yet?
      Quote: Leader
      Bypassing me, you continue the rotten work of Krivitsky and Co., creating a lie about the war!
      Therefore, there is still no "History of the Great Patriotic War" in Russia! For 70 years - only mountains of waste paper, regularly rewritten again ...

      Read my passage about R. Hess and post your answer in this thread. I won’t accept it in “PM”, because you have to teach them scoundrels with their own tools.
  25. okroshka79
    okroshka79 31 December 2015 12: 43 New
    +1
    The history of the Great Patriotic War was published, in my opinion, in 6 volumes by the Academy of the General Staff in about 1953. But she was classified as "secret." I was a little able to leaf through it shortly in due time. Very interesting! And in no way did it correspond to the fictions of journalists.
  26. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 31 December 2015 13: 05 New
    0
    May everyone have a rich table, fun, loved ones nearby to meet Novgorod of the year! Peace, kindness, joy!
    According to the article ----- To love their Motherland as they love their mother --- and young, smart, beautiful, rich and old, stooped, forgetting everything, stolen, deceived, Always support. Always respect and never speak discredit yourself facts that would boast of their knowledge to the detriment of the memory of the dead, of departed Scientific articles should always be unemotional, as in this article.
    But the hard truth must be known in advance, to be able to refute the answer, to know. Otherwise, the enemies will recognize, extract, remake and will joyfully mock.
    Of course, it would be nice to know about their enemies in advance and be able to speak on this topic.
    Perhaps the Author will help with this! Happy New Year, Vyacheslav Olegovich! And my selfish dream --- let your books be published in the publishing house "Nestor - History" I often visit this street. It would be convenient for me. Joke!
  27. Jozhkin Cat
    Jozhkin Cat 31 December 2015 13: 28 New
    +9
    it was clear to the hedgehog that there weren’t 28 of them there. However, Moscow was not taken, and the war ended in Berlin. And the film will be shot according to the army legend, and this is our right, the right of the victorious people!
    Happy new year comrades. drinks
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 31 December 2015 20: 17 New
      +2
      Quote: Jozhkin the Cat
      Happy new year comrades

      Answer: 100 grams of "combat" for you, for us and for special forces, for the health of the wounded, for the freedom of prisoners, for beautiful women and for us MILITARY! Hi Yoshkar-Ola! To the dregs! Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!....
  28. chenia
    chenia 31 December 2015 16: 08 New
    +1
    Quote: Leader
    And it all began, as usual, with the invention of a journalist, eagerly caught up and carried by the political department ...


    It is better to remain silent and look like an idiot, than to blab something and dispel all doubts.

    Straighten your head, why suddenly a very large political department and ideological department of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (Zhdanov) destroys such a legend. Because of Dobrobabin? And who then could hear about him?
    The impulse of truthfulness (in this way one can call into question the truth of the SHORT COURSE of the history of the CPSU) or something else.
    When you understand. Understand the nature of the appearance of the above documents.

    And Klochkov was the commander of the platoon of the 2nd battalion platoon (a freelance team of tank destroyers).
    Before the hype, he was already twice an order bearer (two orders of the BKZ) for a month of fighting (second order, order 044, Jan 17, 1942). In this order there are no awards yet for any scribbler. But the commander’s award probably reflects the unit’s feat.

    There was no battle. you first understand the definitions - the offensive zone, the breakthrough site, the demonstration offensive, and you will understand a lot.



    Quote: Leader
    I do not need such myths; let's get the truth!


    Are you sure you want to know the truth?
  29. gusev_sa
    gusev_sa 31 December 2015 16: 39 New
    +2
    The position of the editors of this supposedly "patriotic" site is surprising.
    After all, Shpakovsky is a famous scaffold and grantosos. Nevertheless, he is given the opportunity to our country.

    Earlier, citizen Volodin blamed the liberals Latynina and others. They are not allowed to win, but Shpakovsky can go. He is his own.
    The Russians are now sitting in shit because these Shppakovsky, Volodins have the opportunity to go unpunished on us.
  30. chenia
    chenia 31 December 2015 16: 56 New
    +2
    Quote: chenia
    There was no battle. you first understand the definitions - the offensive zone, the breakthrough site, the demonstration offensive, and you will understand a lot.


    I read and was horrified, forgot to put a question mark.

    So you should read
    - There was no battle? It was. This anti-aircraft platoon held the defense at the breakthrough site - the left flank of the division junction, the stronghold of the 4th company. And the fact that the whole regiment fought, you need to understand the definitions - the offensive zone, the breakthrough area, the demonstration offensive, and you will understand a lot.
  31. fa2998
    fa2998 31 December 2015 19: 08 New
    +4
    Quote: VOLOD
    those who are trying to humiliate the greatness of the heroic deed of heroes who have not spared their lives for their homeland are better off stumbling.

    Nobody wants to belittle the greatness of the heroic deed — they simply crossed out the true rank, or the rank of the award was reduced, either a daring boss, or not a Komsomol member, or “not politically savvy” - there are many such cases. There are many heroes and their deeds are GREAT. And here one political instructor told the other, the third one and that correspondent, in the deep rear. The rest was supplemented by the editor in Moscow. Not the number of fighters, not the details of the battle, even the surname list of the dead are far from the truth. They wrote who they remembered and ran into the dead, even some They served the Germans. Do we need such a story ?! We do not need invented legends, and there are enough normal heroes! negative hi
  32. Ivan Tartugai
    Ivan Tartugai 31 December 2015 21: 46 New
    +9
    The posted photos of the document do not inspire confidence in the following:
    1. The document is executed carelessly. We don’t even consider such a document for the NOD (the head of the road department), the head of the race may even take it into consideration, but it will at least sign in places of corrections and indicate the position submitting the document, which is supposedly a note from the master of the route G.?. Safonova.
    This is the same document sent to the Secretary of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (Bolsheviks), and not to the head of the railway distance, moreover, the document is of special importance and is completely secret, and such careless design is unacceptable;
    2. The date of filing the document is strange indicated, so “8” is probably printed in the eighth year, and “4”, seen in the forties, is written by hand. Usually, years are completely printed on documents, namely, 1948. Well, if the author of the document would want to shorten, then he would print “48” or if he decided to cut it even further, then he would print “4” or not “8”, and then he would add four by hand.
    3. It is difficult to make out the handwriting of the performer; the document dated June 11 or July 11 is not clear. Such a handwriting does not fill out such documents. In the expedition or office where the document is registered, workers usually sit with good handwriting. Even in small offices and organizations in which they do not write or send letters to the secretaries of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, they will find a person with legible handwriting in them.
    4. The name and patronymic of the correspondent of the newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda Koroteev should be indicated, and only the surname should be indicated. Similarly, to the person of the literary secretary of the newspaper "Red Star" Krivitsky.
    5. Strange secrecy for the document, which is labeled "Top Secret", namely the regiment, in which 28 Panfilov from the 5th company served, is indicated as the "N Regiment". Seeing it, someone G. Safonov decided to keep the number of the regiment secret even from the Secretary of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, AA Zhdanov.
    In the document, which goes under the heading "Top Secret", the numbers of military units are indicated without any additional secrets. This method of secrecy is used mainly for the media - newspapers, magazines, radio;
    6. A strange correction was made on page 3, namely, the fifth company in which Kuzhabergenov served was deleted. And it is written that Askar (he is Daniil) does not appear on the lists of the 4th company Kuzhabergenov, so he should have been on the lists of the 4th company, since he served in the 5th company.
    It seems that the document that is presented in the article is another falsification in order to defame the feat of 28 Panfilov heroes.
    1. Koshak
      Koshak 2 January 2016 16: 34 New
      +2
      Good, detailed analysis. Everything is logical. good hi
    2. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 4 January 2016 20: 31 New
      +1
      Brilliantly written.
  33. timyr
    timyr 31 December 2015 23: 15 New
    +5
    Yes, just the descendants of the Nazis and their accomplices, our victory does not give rest. Everyone wants war revisions. By the way, Dobrobabin all his life regretted that he went to serve the Germans
  34. polkovnik manuch
    polkovnik manuch 1 January 2016 01: 00 New
    +4
    Eternal glory to the Heroes! Why does no one stop the archival rat, brazenly lying to the Panfilov heroes?
  35. chenia
    chenia 1 January 2016 14: 44 New
    +2
    Quote: fa2998
    .And here one political instructor told the other, the third one and that correspondent, in the deep rear. The editor in Moscow added the rest. Not the number of fighters, not the details of the battle, even the surname list of the dead is far from the truth.


    And your analytical skills are fucked up,
    here the rule works again
    Quote: chenia
    It is better to remain silent and look like an idiot, than to blab something and dispel all doubts.


    Gundilovich gave data on the heroes to Krivitsky (both Kaprov and the rest confirm the heroism of the 4th company).
    And Gundilovich, in any case, would single out the most worthy ones, and Klochkov at that moment had long been on the list of awarded (for the Order of the BKZ).

    Koroteyev’s article didn’t oblige anything at all, and in the political department of the division Krivitsky could substitute the fight of lt Ugryumy and political instructor Georgiev (who covered the retreat of the division’s headquarters and were noted by Panfilov himself (see Beck's book).

    But for some reason sent to 1075 sp.
    Klochkov (his unit) in the first battle was stopped by 15 tanks (5 were knocked out, which Kaprov confirms).

    It was this information (combat report) that reached the command of the division, and here Klochkov and his team appear.

    After the second battle, there were no reports. And from the first battle to the second, 4-5 hours passed (that's where they kept the defense for -4 hours).
  36. Ivan Tartugai
    Ivan Tartugai 1 January 2016 22: 48 New
    +7
    On page 2 of a document from G.?. Safonov, probably this is from the USSR Prosecutor General G. N. Safonov, printed:
    “The essay by Koroteyev’s correspondent described the heroic battles of the guardsmen of the division named after Panfilov’s tanks with the enemy, in particular, reported the battle of the 5th company of the N-th regiment under the command of political instructor Diev ... "
    The following is printed on page 3:
    “However, Askar did not appear on Kuzhebergenov’s lists 4 and 5 ...”
    Then, by hand, someone struck out the union “and”, as well as the number “5” and added the letter “s” to the word “mouth”. As a result, after corrections it turned out:
    “However, Askar did not appear on the lists of 4 companies of Kuzhebergenov ...”.
    That is, on the 2nd page of the document, the General Prosecutor of the USSR G.N.Safonov allegedly believes that 28 Panfilov’s served in the 5th company of the N-th regiment, and on the next 3rd page of the document the same 28 Panfilov’s served in the 4th oh company.
    The document marked "Top Secret" for the Secretary of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, AA Zhdanov, from the Prosecutor General of the USSR, cannot have such uncertainty about the place of service of 28 Panfilov’s men.
    Further, the feat of 28 Panfilov heroes was completed on November 16, 1941. In April 1942, the command of the Western Front in the person of Commander Zhukov, chief of staff Sokolovsky, members of the Military Council of the Front Bulganin, Khokhlov, Serov filed a petition with the narcotic defense for conferring on them the title of Heroes of the Soviet Union. The application was granted and on July 21, 1942, a Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR was issued.
    In a document on 3 pages printed:
    “In May 1942, KUZHBERGENOV Daniil Aleksandrovich was arrested for voluntarily surrendering to the Germans, who at the first interrogations showed that he is KUZHBERGENOV, who is considered dead among 28 Panfilov heroes.”
    It turns out that two months before the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, the competent authorities, namely the military prosecutor’s office, special departments, counterintelligence, SMERSH, already knew about the alleged falsification of the feat. The command of the Western Front was aware of this and did nothing. A large number of people and managers, and performers, and technical workers knew.
    And they began to deal with the feat only in 1947 after the arrest of IE Dobrobabin.
    It just can't be.
    Another fake this document.
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 4 January 2016 20: 29 New
      +2
      Quote: Ivan Tartugay
      Another fake this document.

      Well, yes, as with the Katyn case. Comrade Yakovlev pretty much worked on archives.
      1. dzeredzavkomimu
        dzeredzavkomimu 5 January 2016 02: 36 New
        -1
        and what bothers you in the Katyn case? Well, and if Stalin gave the order for the execution, and what? the Polish military, and not the civilians, were shot, the Germans handed them over to us, as conspirators with the British to join the anti-Soviet coalition (the Poles themselves had seized by then a piece of the Czech Republic) Maybe Stalin remembered them and the Red Army soldiers who were killed in a Polish concentration camp, I ask again, what is the problem? Do we need to repent? It’s strange why the Finns are silent, there are no executed people? Because there were no conspiracy with the British? How many Poles of Russia .. brains compassed .., for that and paid
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 6 January 2016 00: 11 New
          +2
          Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
          and what bothers you in the Katyn case?

          Yes, a lot of things bother me. About 25 years ago, I somehow clung tightly to one overly universal human citizen from the Democratic Union regarding the execution in Katyn. In the mess of that time, information was not difficult to obtain. So, that citizen also poked me with papers, shouting with foam at his mouth that these are the most exact copies of archival data, which absolutely prove the crimes of the “bloody gebni and cannibal Stalin.” But for some reason the font turned out to be from the Robotex electric typewriter, for which I congratulated the citizen. But he remained in his own confidence. It’s not clear why someone put a minus to me, but I can confidently say that the Poles were shot by the Germans in Katyn, and the documents provided by the Yakovlev Commission were fake. Most likely the same fake as the above presented "archival copies" by the author of the article. Although for the article I put a cross. Any work must be appreciated. Even ungrateful.
          1. Ivan Tartugai
            Ivan Tartugai 6 January 2016 19: 48 New
            +3
            But he remained in his own confidence.

            Yes, so many react. Probably, when a person is deceived, but simply hanged, hang noodles on his ears, and he believes in deception, then later many of the deceived will be ashamed. Shame for yourself, for believing, for letting yourself be deceived. It is very difficult for many to confess their simplicity and admit themselves being deceived. This is especially difficult for young people, as well as middle-aged people, somewhere under 45 years old.
            But then this citizen will then sit alone with himself, calm down, once again look at his “most accurate copies of archival data” and realize that he was hung a kilo of noodles.
            This is probably natural.
            I agree with you. It is good that the author of the article posted "archival copies", but did not, did not write simply unfounded statements.
  37. Leprekon
    Leprekon 2 January 2016 02: 26 New
    +2
    History should be clear, including from political expediency, economic benefits and insanity, those holding power. Does not one fly in the ointment spoil a barrel of honey? Does one speck in the eye allow her not to notice and look at the world with open eyes?
    With regard to the history of the Second World War, one thing is certain, the feat of the Soviet people, their sons, daughters was massive! But all ideological, unconsciously erroneous and frankly false layers must be washed away, as restorers do. The presence of “garbage” in history, as correctly noted in the article, is a time bomb. It may take tens or even hundreds of years, and a hidden lie can denigrate the entire period in history and blow up society.
    Naturally, the process of purification and its presentation to society should be approached carefully. It may take years, but! The purification and restoration of the historical truth of Russia, the Russian State, the USSR and Russia to be! Power is in the truth!
  38. semirek
    semirek 2 January 2016 09: 17 New
    +6
    Recalling the events of those years, Marshal Rokossovsky wrote: “I consider it necessary to emphasize that it was in these battles for the city and east of it that the 316 page division forever covered itself with glory”
  39. Sower
    Sower 2 January 2016 10: 58 New
    -1
    The correct article!
    Why praise the "exaggerated heroes", forgetting the real HEROES. This is not even a legend, but Fiction!
    There are a lot of examples and actions of real heroes who have real names and real events.
    They need to REMEMBER and WRITE IN THE HISTORY their names.
    It's not about something, but what's the difference ?!
    The difference is great. A fictional story and real sacrifices and exploits. Maybe someone does not understand the difference?
    The article does not detract from the merits of the soldiers of the Red Army, the article puts an end to the tale and says, do not forget the real story and the names of these heroes.
    Thanks to our grandfathers for the victory!
  40. Evgeniy30
    Evgeniy30 2 January 2016 12: 03 New
    +1
    Damn, what kind of people are repeating about fiction? Was Panfilov’s division? It was. Fighting near Moscow, in particular at the Dubosekovo junction? There were. Did German tanks stop? Have stopped. Ash stump there were not 28 people, but a whole division. Which companies, each in its own area, fought heroically. 28 are those who were presented for the award. The service of the Germans is already after. Yes, and do not blame the person for this. For we do not know the circumstances. A lot of ours served the Germans corny because of threats to be tortured, shot, or starve to death. So the feat undoubtedly took place. And all, squealing about fiction, go N.Aher, along with Echo of Moscow and other nits.
    1. tokens3
      tokens3 2 January 2016 12: 14 New
      +1
      Evgeniy30
      And all, squealing about fiction, go n.aher, along with the Echo of Moscow and other nits.

      Take it easy.
      Feat was drinks
    2. Sower
      Sower 2 January 2016 13: 42 New
      0
      We are talking about specific people who allegedly committed a feat.
      No one does not detract from the heroism of the Panfilov soldiers.
      The feat of the soldiers and divisions of the KA-reality. Thank them so much for that.
      The feat of 28 soldiers (all are named by surname) is the invention of the journalist.
      That is what it is about.
    3. poquello
      poquello 2 January 2016 18: 04 New
      -3
      Quote: Eugene30
      Damn, what kind of people are repeating about fiction? Was Panfilov’s division? It was. Fighting near Moscow, in particular at the Dubosekovo junction? There were. Did German tanks stop? Have stopped. Ash stump there were not 28 people, but a whole division. Which companies, each in its own area, fought heroically. 28 are those who were presented for the award. The service of the Germans is already after. Yes, and do not blame the person for this. For we do not know the circumstances. A lot of ours served the Germans corny because of threats to be tortured, shot, or starve to death. So the feat undoubtedly took place. And all, squealing about fiction, go N.Aher, along with Echo of Moscow and other nits.

      and you have nothing to do with Gregory Vasyure? neither?
  41. Evgeniy30
    Evgeniy30 2 January 2016 12: 07 New
    +3
    Quote: The Sower
    The correct article!
    Why praise the "exaggerated heroes", forgetting the real HEROES. This is not even a legend, but Fiction!
    There are a lot of examples and actions of real heroes who have real names and real events.
    They need to REMEMBER and WRITE IN THE HISTORY their names.
    It's not about something, but what's the difference ?!
    The difference is great. A fictional story and real sacrifices and exploits. Maybe someone does not understand the difference?
    The article does not detract from the merits of the soldiers of the Red Army, the article puts an end to the tale and says, do not forget the real story and the names of these heroes.
    Thanks to our grandfathers for the victory!

    The story is not made up. For the fighting near Moscow is a fact. Those who stopped the tanks are heroes and this is undoubtedly a feat. And pout, it's you. Is it you who thank the grandfathers for the Victory?
    1. Sower
      Sower 2 January 2016 13: 37 New
      +4
      Is it so bad with logic? Or maybe you can’t read?
      The ability to combine heroism and victory with the tales of a coward-talent journalist.
      Thank you, grandfathers, not the fables of a journalist and his fantasies.
  42. MahsusNazar
    MahsusNazar 2 January 2016 13: 39 New
    +8
    Not diarrhea, so scrofula! To everyone who is outraged by the exploit of Panfilovtsev and his presentation, I remind you that on New Year's Day 94-95, at the railway station in Grozny, our guys fought. So, for today I have not found ANY post where the truth was written. Everywhere nonsense about the "death of the 131 Maykop brigade in one night." Why aren't you outraged? After all, there was a combined detachment of fighters of the brigade, far from brigade personnel, not even a regiment. However, this nonsense suits everyone. Well, yes, of course, because if we are beaten, then by brigades, and if we win, then by a division - two tanks. Liberal fi ... nya
    1. Sower
      Sower 2 January 2016 13: 48 New
      +5
      Each war has its own (real) heroes.
      Write about the war in Chechnya. You need to know how everything was. You must not forget their names. Their will and deed.
      On this topic, for example, an article about the Yakut sniper was very informative.
      The author is well done.
      Write about the Maykop Brigade. We will all be grateful.
  43. Stas57
    Stas57 2 January 2016 14: 47 New
    +2
    "this is a symbol"
    here you explain to me, and why the hell to you, uv. opponents, these characters?
    I personally do not need them.

    I am quite capable of telling about the battles of the Panfilovites without tales and myths, explaining the bitterness of defeat, and the joy of victories. I have enough knowledge to explain that knocking down even one tank without having the entire set of anti-tank equipment is cool, 2 is very cool, and 3 is extremely cool. Tell why fled and why with grenades rushed under the tanks.
    I know that we have many heroes, real and not invented feats. A bunch of little-known stories that take your breath away.
    I know that 28 was needed in 41 to raise the spirit, it is absolutely necessary, but now, after 70 years, we can say for sure who is the hero, who is the traitor.
    I know how hard the victory was, and for this I do not need reliance on the “Spartans”.


    Explain what this "28" symbol gives you and why you cannot make an entire division a symbol?
    1. tokens3
      tokens3 2 January 2016 15: 29 New
      -2
      Stas57
      "this is a symbol"
      here you explain to me, and why the hell to you, uv. opponents, these characters?
      I personally do not need them.

      Yes, you are not a sport with sectarians. How many heroes, yes it doesn’t matter! Were traitors? Yes it doesn’t matter!
      And the fact that they demolished the Temple of Christ the Savior with the collective cenotaph of the soldiers of the Russian Imperial Armykilled in the war with Napoleon. This is so ... a trifle.
      Scrupulous calculation and evidence of losses and exploits is the basis of the foundations of any nation and state.
  44. chenia
    chenia 2 January 2016 15: 16 New
    +1
    28 Panfilov’s is the case when the award found heroes. They would have remained unknown, well, Klochkov would have been an order bearer twice (posthumously), and so they became a symbol of perseverance.

    I want to remind all the morons- they almost all died. Gundilovich gave the information about them (the best company commander in the division, according to Panfilov. At the time of his death in April 1942 he was awarded the Order of the KZ, BKZ, and the Order of Lenin, and he always presented himself with awards of a higher rank.

    Gundilovich gave data on those who died in a calm atmosphere (the division was withdrawn to the reserve) and certainly called the most worthy.

    Krevitsky, unlike Koroteev, had a lot of time to figure it out, right up to the trip to the grave of Klochkov. And it was not necessary to invent something special.

    And who doubted the heroism of the 4 company?
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 2 January 2016 20: 06 New
      +2
      Quote: chenia
      28 Panfilov’s is the case when the award found heroes.

      Daniil Aleksandrovich Kozhabergenov (Kuzhebergenov) He did not directly participate in the battle, as in the morning he was sent with a report to Dubosekovo, where he was captured. On the evening of November 16, he escaped from captivity to the forest.
      Well done, I raided with Dovator, but did not participate in the battle.

      Askar (Aliaskar) Kozhabergenov (Kuzhebergenov), a Red Army man. Arrived at Panfilov’s division in January 1942 of the year (thus, could not participate in the battle at Dubosekov)

      Ivan Moiseevich Natarov, According to the political report of the military commissar of the 1075 rifle regiment Mukhamedyarov stored in the TsAMO funds, he died two days before the battle - November 14.

      how all these people, who undoubtedly fought with the enemy, received the highest award of the USSR? and this is in 41, where to get KZ - an incredible luxury!

      I want to remind all the morons, they almost all died.

      even though you don’t write this to me, I’ll answer, more than 100 people from the company died, why only 28 received GSS?

      Gundilovich gave data about them (the best company commander in the division, according to Panfilov, Gundilovich gave data on those killed in a calm environment (the division was put on reserve) and certainly named the most worthy.

      Gundilovich is a mortal man, he might not have known / remembered everyone, from 140 there were 25 people left, why didn’t the journalist care about the rest of his name? Why did he carry sansatsyu in his beak, and did not check on the spot, did not interview the fighters, maybe because the 4 of the tank on 100 is the person in his eyes, this is not an ehschlusif, not an urgent number, but 20 on 28 is that? Direct life news of some kind.
      Krevitsky, unlike Koroteev, had a lot of time to figure it out, right up to the trip to the grave of Klochkov. And there wasn’t much to think of
      .
      The body of Vasily Klochkov was found, identified and buried only in February / March, when did the article appear?

      And who doubted the heroism of the 4 company?
      no one, only the company is not 28 people

      ps


      Those. in 2 hours both Nelidovo and Petelino were lost. Dubosekovo was left behind. There was no point in storming it - there was no road there. The road leaves through Petelino. http://www.etomesto.ru/map-rkka_n-37-a/?x=36.050807&y=55.98404 on Shiryaevo, where the remains of the 1075 regiment took up defense. On the modern map it is clearly visible that immediately after the junction there is a ravine (and on the terrain it is clearly visible) http://www.etomesto.ru/map-topokarta/?x=36.053725&y=55.970191, so there is no point in advancing there with tanks.

      here http://warspot.ru/4282-na-podstupah-k-moskve
      everything is well described about the division, read, and do not believe in fairy tales
  45. Bosk
    Bosk 2 January 2016 17: 44 New
    +6
    My mother’s grandfather also fought near Moscow and in the winter of the 42nd his militia regiment threw themselves at a German breakthrough, well what can I say? The militia regiment kept German tanks for 70 hours and then went missing ... all!, Granny until the XNUMXs all instances "raised my ears" to find out the fate of my grandfather and nothing, the whole regiment seems to be missing until today ... Why am I saying this ... if you take it in fact, the regiment kept tanks for a whole day and judging by the fact that he was detained on the second line, which means that the militias didn’t weakly harm him, are they heroes? -YES !, but on the other hand, they are still considered missing ..., so how many “Forgotten Regiments” were like that during the war and "Forgotten Heroes" ...
  46. Evgeniy30
    Evgeniy30 2 January 2016 17: 47 New
    +2
    Quote: Lexi3
    Stas57
    "this is a symbol"
    here you explain to me, and why the hell to you, uv. opponents, these characters?
    I personally do not need them.

    Yes, you are not a sport with sectarians. How many heroes, yes it doesn’t matter! Were traitors? Yes it doesn’t matter!
    And the fact that they demolished the Temple of Christ the Savior with the collective cenotaph of the soldiers of the Russian Imperial Armykilled in the war with Napoleon. This is so ... a trifle.
    Scrupulous calculation and evidence of losses and exploits is the basis of the foundations of any nation and state.

    Now I understand your spray of saliva. Obviously anti-Soviet slips. Expose the feat of 300 Spartans, for in fact there were far from 300 of them.
    1. tokens3
      tokens3 2 January 2016 18: 27 New
      -1
      Evgeniy30
      Now I understand your spray of saliva. Obviously anti-Soviet slips. Expose the feat of 300 Spartans, for in fact there were far from 300 of them.

      Drink a thread. Brush away a tear.
  47. chenia
    chenia 2 January 2016 18: 04 New
    +3
    Liberates pass me by! But the arguments are weak.

    They never served, and they have no idea of ​​the army and war. And they constantly moo about the fact that all the heroes represented are only a figment of the imagination of the compositagitprom.

    They and Gostello are not the same, and the Sailors are wrong, and 23 Panfilov-Klochkovites (out of 28) died of a cold, and not in battle.

    And they cunningly cover up their desire to defame the heroes with a balakina about objectivity in reflecting history.

    And turn it around. they don’t need the truth, the main thing is to spoil.
  48. Vadim2013
    Vadim2013 2 January 2016 18: 27 New
    +7
    In the fall of 1941, the military situation near Moscow was very tense. It was necessary at all costs to stop the German troops for a day, for hours. The 316th Infantry Division of Ivan Vasilyevich Panfilov heroically completed this task, stopping the advance of several Wehrmacht divisions in the Volokolamsk direction from October 15 to November 20 November 1941. At this time, it was not up to the description of the battles of the division and its units. The task was one at all costs to stop the German troops. Eternal glory and memory of fallen soldiers and officers.
  49. chenia
    chenia 2 January 2016 21: 11 New
    +3
    Quote: chenia
    how all these people, who undoubtedly fought with the enemy, received the highest award of the USSR? and this is in 41, where to get KZ - an incredible luxury!


    And here we must first understand

    first- Klochkov in the battle was the commander of a platoon of the 2nd battalion platoon (contingency formation. from the selected fighters of the battalion. see orders on the formation of these teams - tank destroyers, and see Beck’s book, there, at Mamysh-Ula, the commander of the regular platoon Koloyev - than surprised Panfilov "you did not select people?")

    the second is the tactics of these units — positions up to 30 m away 100-60 m before the first trench — which means there could only be a group of 5-6 soldiers), these guys are imprisoned to destroy primarily tanks, infantry are cut off by the company. Such positions there were several in front of each company of the first echelon of the battalion (the number of groups according to the number of commanders, (4-5 detached, PKV, and Klochkov).

    the third - there was no separate battle. The anti-tank platoon performed the task in the most threatened area — a breakthrough section. Just at the first attack Klochkivtsi knocked out (damaged) 4-5 tanks. while 4 companies cut off the infantry, and foiled the German offensive.

    fourth- Well, here you have to be military and have some idea of ​​the relationship in the army. It is strange that practical Germans then struck with such forces at 14-15 hours. There was so little bright time for success. This is what a senior boss put in to them, that they scrambled out fifty tanks like scalded and despite the upcoming night rushed forward. (This indirectly confirms that the Germans' first offensive (and not reconnaissance by battle) was failed).

    Quote: chenia
    Gundilovich is a mortal man, he might not have known / remembered everyone, out of 140, 25 were left, why didn’t the journalist care about the rest of his name?


    It’s clear that you didn’t command a company, otherwise you never carried such stupidity. Everything from the list of the old set (4 month (1 month of serious battles)) together, even if we take into account the fact that the tank destroyer team was a national team, the majority were still 4 company fighters in the past, and they were registered in the SDK, hence they were on contentment in 4 company.)
    The company verdict knows its people thoroughly, and would never have written random people into heroes.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 2 January 2016 22: 12 New
      -2
      And here we must first understand

      yeah, for example, start with where the main German blow went. how many KG were there, where did the tanks go, at which NP, and why didn’t they go to Dubosekovo, where was the defense, and so on
      all your thoughts about the trenches, about the 4 of the destroyed tanks by the Klochkovites, or about the Germans whose documents are available, and you didn’t see their KG tactics in their eyes, etc., I don’t see any reason to discuss

      It’s clear that you didn’t command a company, otherwise you never carried such stupidity. Everything from the list of the old set (4 month (1 month of serious battles)) together, even if we take into account the fact that the tank destroyer team was a national team, the majority were still 4 company fighters in the past, and they were registered in the SDK, hence they were on contentment in 4 company.)

      it is obvious that the company could not know where all his fighters were, and how exactly and where they died, he didn’t even know his surnames, he didn’t know that Kozhabergenov hadn’t died, and Natarov had died the day before, well, he had forgotten, the battles merged into one heavy fights, but what did he check the journalist? Nope, he’s urgently broadcast!
  50. Evgeniy30
    Evgeniy30 2 January 2016 21: 26 New
    +3
    Quote: Stas57
    Quote: chenia
    28 Panfilov’s is the case when the award found heroes.

    Daniil Aleksandrovich Kozhabergenov (Kuzhebergenov) He did not directly participate in the battle, as in the morning he was sent with a report to Dubosekovo, where he was captured. On the evening of November 16, he escaped from captivity to the forest.
    Well done, I raided with Dovator, but did not participate in the battle.

    Askar (Aliaskar) Kozhabergenov (Kuzhebergenov), a Red Army man. Arrived at Panfilov’s division in January 1942 of the year (thus, could not participate in the battle at Dubosekov)

    Ivan Moiseevich Natarov, According to the political report of the military commissar of the 1075 rifle regiment Mukhamedyarov stored in the TsAMO funds, he died two days before the battle - November 14.

    how all these people, who undoubtedly fought with the enemy, received the highest award of the USSR? and this is in 41, where to get KZ - an incredible luxury!

    I want to remind all the morons, they almost all died.

    even though you don’t write this to me, I’ll answer, more than 100 people from the company died, why only 28 received GSS?

    Gundilovich gave data about them (the best company commander in the division, according to Panfilov, Gundilovich gave data on those killed in a calm environment (the division was put on reserve) and certainly named the most worthy.

    Gundilovich is a mortal man, he might not have known / remembered everyone, from 140 there were 25 people left, why didn’t the journalist care about the rest of his name? Why did he carry sansatsyu in his beak, and did not check on the spot, did not interview the fighters, maybe because the 4 of the tank on 100 is the person in his eyes, this is not an ehschlusif, not an urgent number, but 20 on 28 is that? Direct life news of some kind.
    Krevitsky, unlike Koroteev, had a lot of time to figure it out, right up to the trip to the grave of Klochkov. And there wasn’t much to think of
    .
    The body of Vasily Klochkov was found, identified and buried only in February / March, when did the article appear?

    And why the 6th company in Chechnya (86 paratroopers died) did not assign GR, and to all? What kind of logic? According to your logic, the GSS should have been given to all 36 million people who passed through the warpaths. 28 simply became a kind of symbol with which every Panfilov fighter identified himself. Here above, one comrade complained that once demolished the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, with the movie heroes of the heroes of 1812 (again, it’s a shame that not everyone received the order of St. Andrew the First-Called (the highest award of the RI). But we are stubbornly doing the same. It's not about the fact that there weren’t 28 people, this is a no brainer. The point is completely different. The point is that the defense of Moscow WAS and was heroic, just these notorious 28 became a symbol of the defense of Moscow. Why none of the current whistleblowers smeared an absolutely false picture "Burnt by the Sun - 2"? This is where frank lies and humiliation are. Or "Serving the Soviet Union", "Stalingrad", "Bastards", etc. Why did they rest against these unfortunate 28? Or are they not worthy?
    For some reason, the defense of Sevastopol is associated with a sailor in a peakless cap for many. Will we expose? After all, Sevastopol was defended by others. Why is there a monument to “one and a half” standing near Peter as a symbol of the “road of life”, if the bulk of the cargo went by airplanes and ships, and not by cars? Let's expose everything? The main thing is just in time when powerful ideological pressure is coming to our country. Why did they remember these Panfilov just now? Why are there no revelations of the Mikhalkovskaya lie? So we will go far.
    1. tokens3
      tokens3 2 January 2016 21: 51 New
      +3
      Evgeniy30

      Here above, one comrade complained that once demolished the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, with the movie heroes of the heroes of 1812,

      You comrade Evgeny30 direct the discussion in the right direction hi
      Really, why divide the heroes into defense plots?
      At my maternal grandparents many brothers were killed in 1941. So what? One was missing in an environment.
      Is it his fault that the command scored on boilers in 1941 ???
      Yes, the Second World War was much more bloody than the war of 1812.
      So the symbol should be the same for everyone! If there is a Temple of goodness. Let it be. There is someone to decide such things.
      And to each surname! 21 century technology allows.
      And I'm sorry ... here is a feat.
      And somewhere there is duty. Not a thing.
      With all due respect to the soldiers of Panfilov’s division.
    2. Stas57
      Stas57 2 January 2016 22: 04 New
      +1
      Quote: Eugene30
      And why did the 6 company in Chechnya (86 paratroopers perish) not be assigned GR, and to all? What kind of logic? According to your logic, the GSS had to be given to all 36 millions of people who passed through the warpaths.

      No, give it deservedly, for the feat (I remind you, the highest award of the country !!), and not according to the list, so that later it wouldn’t turn out that one was killed before, the other arrived after, the third was not at all, and the fourth traitor, this is generally obvious.
      Quote: Eugene30
      was heroic, just these notorious 28 became a symbol of the defense of Moscow.

      why exactly them? and Podolsk cadets? not?
      and the whole division? even the streets are named
      I repeat once again, why is the symbol of Moscow’s defense, for you 28 and not the whole division, do you have any special heroemeter?
      I see no reason to respond to further outpouring