Military Review

Representative of the RF Ministry of Defense: "Reading information from memory cards is not yet possible due to internal damage to the Su-24 flight recorder"

169
Deputy Chief of the Flight Safety Service of the Russian Armed Forces, Lieutenant General Sergei Baynetov announced the progress of work on determining the details of the flight of the Russian Su-24 bomber shot down by Turkish fighters in the skies over Syria. We are talking about attempts to decipher the flight recorder of the Russian aircraft, which is located in a special laboratory in Moscow. According to General Binetov, it is not yet possible to read the data, since the chips on the recorder board and the board itself have significant damage. RIA News cites a fragment of the statement by Sergey Baynetov:


As a result of (radiological) examination, the 13 of 16 non-volatile memory chips were destroyed, three chips - BDD1, BDD2 and BDD5 - were damaged. The BDD1 and BDD2 microcircuits are faulty due to damage to the conductors connecting the crystal with the external leads of the microcircuit and the possible destruction of the crystals themselves. A chip with a serial number BDD5 may be in good condition, since damage to its internal elements in the X-ray image is not traced. Reading information from memory cards is not yet possible due to internal damage. The Commission is working on the issue of attracting specialized research institutions of the Russian Federation, with the ability to extract information directly from the chip chip.


Representative of the RF Ministry of Defense: "Reading information from memory cards is not yet possible due to internal damage to the Su-24 flight recorder"


According to General Baynetov, the recorder's body itself received penetrating damage - to the inner container due to the impact of the aircraft on the ground and the impact of parts of the fuselage and other elements of the bomber.

It should be noted that the more often from the mouth of the Russian military appear statements that with the decoding of the recorder of the Su-24 shot down by the Turks, insurmountable difficulties may arise, the more caustic passages regarding the situation appear, for example, in the Turkish media.
Photos used:
www.aif.kg
169 comments
Ad

The editorial board of Voenniy Obozreniye urgently needs a proofreader. Requirements: impeccable knowledge of the Russian language, diligence, discipline. Contact: [email protected]

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Uran
    Uran 21 December 2015 19: 21 New
    +4
    here it is already necessary to attract those who create these microchips. and electronics engineers from high. qualifications. it is a long process. And there is no certainty that you can restore the Old. it's time to come up with other more flexible media from other materials that are less dependent on such damage! and which withstand heavy heat loads and mechanical shocks!
    1. Denis Obukhov
      Denis Obukhov 21 December 2015 19: 33 New
      +2
      It’s not clear why the black box stores data on microchips? There would be a magnetic medium, something could be restored.
      1. Extraneous
        Extraneous 21 December 2015 20: 13 New
        15
        The magnetic carrier is also not reliable enough. The problem with this particular "box" is that the flash memory chips are installed in the household. Although they could just as well have bought in special buildings from the same Chinese where they bought these. But due to the significant difference in cost (several orders of magnitude more expensive). Saved, damn it. In addition, motherboards created at the level of technologies of the 80s and assembled in a "handicraft" way were placed inside an almost indestructible case without any protection. So on impact, the force pulse was transmitted without interference and the chips simply exploded.
        1. avia1991
          avia1991 21 December 2015 21: 27 New
          17
          Quote: Stranger
          The problem with this particular "box" is that the flash memory chips are installed in the household.

          Chips, maybe not household ones - but definitely not for such a device!
          In general, when I saw what was inside this EMERGENCY recorder! ... To say that I AM MUCH AMAZED was to say nothing! THIS cannot be the custodian of invaluable - in the given conditions - information. Perhaps IT can work quite successfully in a home or office PC .. Emergency recorder, according to once driven into me knowledge - it's a hammer substitute in the forge, with which you can safely forge a red-hot pig, and then turn it on - AND IT WILL WORK FOR STATUS.
          What has been demonstrated to us is unlikely to withstand even chopping walnuts without damage. Sadly ..
          1. Extraneous
            Extraneous 21 December 2015 21: 33 New
            +1
            It is household. Chinese. In Russia, chips of this architecture are not produced. On a neighboring branch, someone wrote both the type of chips and the manufacturer. They sawed off the markings and wrote their designation with a drawing pen with paint. "Import substitution".
            You can order the production of the same chips in a special design by yourself on the Internet in China. They will cost a lot. But they fully meet all the technical requirements for such equipment.
            My friend constantly orders some kind of electronic garbage at a factory in China and receives parcels.
            1. avia1991
              avia1991 21 December 2015 21: 41 New
              +8
              Quote: Stranger
              It is household. Chinese

              I will not argue - not special repeat
              However, even in a special design, such chips will not withstand the damaging factors of a plane crash if they are not properly protected! Do you agree?
              The fact that the photo reminds me of events of about 35 years ago, when the boys and I fanned all kinds of self-made radios, packing them in plastic soap dishes. Installation technology and architecture are quite similar wassat , the creators of this device did not seem to know firsthand about thermal and shockproof protection.
              1. Extraneous
                Extraneous 21 December 2015 21: 49 New
                +4
                They knew something. Money was a pity. Protecting such equipment from shock loads is expensive. You can’t push wool and you won’t fill it with epoxy. Neither one will save from overload.
                The compound was poured into equipment with secret technology. Protection more from tampering than from shock overload in 20G.
                And it was made really on the "knee" technology, which was famous for the radio market in the eighties.
                1. Lunic
                  Lunic 22 December 2015 07: 45 New
                  +2
                  Quote: "And it was made really on the" knee "technology, which was famous for the radio market in the eighties."
                  eh reminded me of how cool the radio market was in the 80s in Makeevka. Anything could be bought, from an old lamp to integrated circuits .. any cards from household radio equipment (since there was a Skif factory in Makeevka) to boards and units with military communications equipment and more .. (thanks to the Topaz factory and a bunch of military depots in Donetsk region)
                  Thyristors for color music in the super-store "Young Technician" (on Ilyich Avenue) for some reason were not sold .. as well as the GU-50 lamps in the daytime with fire there was not to be found there. And they have always been at the bazaar. The main thing is to get there by dawn. :)
            2. TSOOBER
              TSOOBER 21 December 2015 22: 25 New
              +1
              http://milandr.ru/index.php?mact=Products,cntnt01,details,0&cntnt01productid=115

              & cntnt01returnid = 68
            3. Aleksey_K
              Aleksey_K 21 December 2015 22: 40 New
              +1
              Quote: Stranger
              My friend constantly orders some kind of electronic garbage at a factory in China and receives parcels.

              This is very interesting information - to receive packages with electronic components without an intermediary. And you could not check with your friend how to directly contact this plant, give a reference. I would be very grateful.
              1. Lunic
                Lunic 22 December 2015 07: 50 New
                0
                http://russian.alibaba.com/Accessories-Parts_pid100009632

                The largest trading portal in Asia. If you don’t find something, you can always place a request for a product and they will find you.
                The Russian version of the portal is slightly "shortened". See English. version:
                http://offer.alibaba.com/catalogs/products/cid4003?spm=a2700.7767702.1997230041.
                306.qhzOVm
                1. Aleksey_K
                  Aleksey_K 22 December 2015 13: 16 New
                  0
                  Quote: Lunic
                  http://russian.alibaba.com/Accessories-Parts_pid100009632

                  The largest trading portal in Asia. If you don’t find something, you can always place a request for a product and they will find you.
                  The Russian version of the portal is slightly "shortened". See English. version:
                  http://offer.alibaba.com/catalogs/products/cid4003?spm=a2700.7767702.1997230041.

                  306.qhzOVm

                  Alibaba, like AliExpress, are just intermediaries. And the reader "Stranger" said that his friend receives radio electronic components directly from the factory. Such orders should be even cheaper.
          2. TSOOBER
            TSOOBER 21 December 2015 22: 26 New
            0
            Here is the board of a racially faithful store of chornago yashga.
            http://glav.su/forum/5-military/31/offset/101700/
          3. ancient
            ancient 22 December 2015 10: 59 New
            +2
            Quote: avia1991
            In general, when I saw what was inside of this EMERGENCY recorder! ... To say that I was SO MUCH SURPRISED is to say nothing!


            You were very, very "flattering" soldier +! soldier

            Quote: avia1991
            THIS cannot be a priceless keeper


            And this is GOLDEN WORDS soldier absolutely right .. SO SIMPLY CAN'T BE, but ...



            it turned out that maybe crying

            And I still can't understand .. WHY IS ALL this "SHOW" and especially with the involvement of the "foreign public"?
            What SUCH can the ZBN "give out" that should "shed light on the truth"? belay request
            1. Aleksey_K
              Aleksey_K 22 December 2015 14: 34 New
              0
              Quote: ancient
              But these GOLD WORDS are absolutely right .. SO SIMPLY CAN'T BE, but ...

              It is a pity that you did not bring another picture from this video, which clearly shows that the bottom of the inner case is dented inward. This is evidenced by light flares that converge at the point of maximum indentation. No compound would save from such an indentation. It would have sold in the same way, if two thick metal cases were deformed, then some kind of compound simply would not help.
              1. ancient
                ancient 22 December 2015 16: 12 New
                +2
                Quote: Алексей_К
                It is a pity that you did not bring another picture from this video, which clearly shows that the bottom of the inner case is dented inward.


                If you think that this will change something ... then you are deeply mistaken.
                It is clear that you are protecting your "swamp" (in the sense that the area in which you worked and are working).
                But then you already have to be up to the end HONEST and PRINCIPAL .. answer the question .. why "Testers" were never put on CIVIL cars ???? wink
                And that the Tester is almost like me .. well, a little bit younger than 10 years old?
                And no matter how much you "modernize", then from that "miracle" that the people of Kiev have created ... you will never make candy wink
        2. Igor Polovodov
          Igor Polovodov 22 December 2015 01: 06 New
          +2
          And what prevents to fill with a compound? There would be a single monolithic block!
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. Jurkovs
          Jurkovs 22 December 2015 09: 24 New
          +4
          I agree completely. From the point of view of the designer, the installation of boards on four pins, as in an iron, is a complete paragraph. Why do we need a four-layer case with gaskets, when inertia during sharp braking of aircraft debris, from 50 m / s to zero, is converted into a force breaking textolite plates exactly along the axis of symmetry of the pins along with microcircuits. I would drop the designer from this height, and in general did anyone test these boxes for dropping? Yes, they should fail if they fall from the fifth floor to the asphalt.
      2. atalef
        atalef 21 December 2015 20: 15 New
        47
        Quote: Denis Obukhov
        It’s not clear why the black box stores data on microchips? There would be a magnetic medium, something could be restored.

        I don’t understand why strain at all?
        what's the difference what's on the media?
        the plane was shot down on purpose and it went a couple of kilometers to Turkey or not - no role plays.
        Incidents with the arrival of aircraft foreign space hundreds of a year. And no one really bothers with this, as a last resort they will express concern
        There was a deliberate action and there is nothing for Russia to apologize for.
        Yes, and there’s nothing to persuade, the main thing is to understand the intentions, and the intentions were unequivocal - in any situation to bring down.
        From this we must proceed. In relations with Turkey, present and future.
        1. Extraneous
          Extraneous 21 December 2015 20: 23 New
          +6
          This is a political issue. The Turks motivate by the fact that the plane was shot down over its territory. While there is no documented evidence by us, NATO has no reason to blame the Turks for violating international law. Need to poke their nose into the point. Then it will be possible to make claims to NATO and they will be forced to merge Erdogan.
          1. avia1991
            avia1991 21 December 2015 21: 30 New
            +4
            Quote: Stranger
            While there is no documented evidence by us, NATO has no reason to blame the Turks for violating international law.
            Putin has already told you: "Regardless of the results of the decryption, our attitude towards the Turkish leadership will not change."
            And there are grounds for blaming the violation of international law - even if the border had been violated.
          2. ancient
            ancient 22 December 2015 11: 06 New
            +1
            Quote: Stranger
            Need to poke their nose into the point.


            And you can SOUND .. what are you, or rather what parameters, read from the ZBN'a, are you going to "poke" the Turks?
            Well, just wondering? wink
            On SVP-24 all data from PNS are "written" only on TBNK .. which, of course, in a crumpled state .. what else can you try to "present"? Supercritical angle of attack? request
      3. Parkan
        Parkan 21 December 2015 21: 41 New
        -3
        The magnetic tape also breaks and crumbles with time, loads and frequent use.
        1. Just BB
          Just BB 22 December 2015 03: 25 New
          +4
          It is metallic. Does not crumble, and if it breaks, it sticks easily - since the "furry" 70s
          1. Homo
            Homo 22 December 2015 04: 51 New
            -1
            Quote: Just BB
            Doesn't crumble ...

            Even as it crumbles. You apparently used a little magnetic tape. And do not confuse magnetic tape with wire media.
            1. Just BB
              Just BB 22 December 2015 05: 06 New
              +5
              Buddy!
              The metal magnetic tape used in the drive of the Tester-U3 system (Su-24 and many others) does not have such a sprayed layer as a tape for household tape recorders.
              Yes, in the MSRP-12-96 system, it was used, but had a limited lifetime - just so that you did not happen
              1. ancient
                ancient 22 December 2015 11: 39 New
                +2
                Quote: Just BB
                The metal magnetic tape used in the drive of the Tester-U3 system (Su-24 and many others) does not have such a sprayed layer as a tape for household tape recorders


                That's right, +! drinks soldier
      4. vfck
        vfck 22 December 2015 02: 51 New
        0
        you need to consider that demagnetization can occur, and then infa is definitely lost.
    2. Denis Obukhov
      Denis Obukhov 21 December 2015 19: 35 New
      +7
      Given that a rocket hit the tail and then this area was ironed with different caliber of ammunition, it is surprising that the box still remains ...
      1. Extraneous
        Extraneous 21 December 2015 20: 17 New
        +2
        The rocket hit the engine. The plane crashed almost vertically. If the box were assembled as it should be - the memory would be as much as 90 percent.
        1. Baloo
          Baloo 21 December 2015 21: 11 New
          +2
          On a nearby branch, the specialist analyzed the device of this black box itself. If there are specialists, please comment: if the recording were on the wire, would it survive? if the device itself with the same circuits were assembled as it should, flooded with a compound, which would prevent any displacement and separation of the microcircuits from the wires, we could now read it. and the last question. the simplest: this box from drying is the next all-Russian p \ a \ s \ n \ .... \ o, i.e. Of course I wanted to say sloppiness, or also that at the cosmodrome east, with falling rockets or sabotage? hi
          1. Extraneous
            Extraneous 21 December 2015 21: 27 New
            +2
            An analog signal is written to the wireworms and recording time is limited. Plus, the time for retraining the equipment for the next record is long. The equipment for such recording is bulky and heavy.
            Not sloppiness, but an attempt to make something more modern with very meager reserves in finances.
            Stupidly - saving.
          2. Captain nemo
            Captain nemo 21 December 2015 22: 26 New
            +1
            Quote: Balu
            if the recording were on wire she would have survived?

            It depends on the material of the wire, for example, for chromium, heating somewhere around 120 degrees leads to the demagnetization of the wire and, accordingly, to the loss of recorded information, for the iron wire T demagnetization is even less. In addition to this, the wire mercilessly saws the recording head, but this is not very critical, it is a consumable and is not of interest after the crash of an airplane. But mechanically, this is probably the most reliable medium if it is not overheated.
          3. The comment was deleted.
          4. Just BB
            Just BB 22 December 2015 03: 39 New
            +2
            The previous system "Tester-U3 series3" installed on the same Su-24 had a storage device with a magnetic metal tape. The tape does not crumble, and if it breaks, it is glued (the technology has been known to "emergency workers" since the 70s) with a slight loss of information
            Outsider RU Yesterday, 21:27 ↑ New
            An analog signal is written to the wireworms and recording time is limited. Plus, the time for retraining the equipment for the next record is long. The equipment for such recording is bulky and heavy.
            Not sloppiness, but an attempt to make something more modern with very meager reserves in finances.
            Stupidly - saving.


            Digital flight information. It is written continuously - a new record is superimposed on the previous one. And why do you need a lot of information?
            An emergency situation develops in minutes.
            And what you say is an airplane tape recorder (also a "black box", but today we are not talking about it)
        2. Baloo
          Baloo 21 December 2015 21: 11 New
          +2
          On a nearby branch, the specialist analyzed the device of this black box itself. If there are specialists, please comment: if the recording were on the wire, would it survive? if the device itself with the same circuits were assembled as it should, flooded with a compound, which would prevent any displacement and separation of the microcircuits from the wires, we could now read it. and the last question. the simplest: this box from drying is the next all-Russian p \ a \ s \ n \ .... \ o, i.e. Of course I wanted to say sloppiness, or also that at the cosmodrome east, with falling rockets or sabotage? hi
        3. Just BB
          Just BB 22 December 2015 03: 29 New
          +1
          The plane crashed almost vertically


          Then an explosion (in the "movie" they showed) what a box among daisies
    3. APASUS
      APASUS 21 December 2015 19: 56 New
      +2
      Quote: Uranus
      here it is already necessary to attract those who create these microchips. and electronics engineers from high. qualifications. it is a long process. And there is no certainty that you can restore the Old. it's time to come up with other more flexible media from other materials that are less dependent on such damage! and which withstand heavy heat loads and mechanical shocks!

      Everything is working fine, the info has gone that they will take information directly from the crystal, just for this you have to wait and attract the research institute
      1. Denis Obukhov
        Denis Obukhov 21 December 2015 20: 02 New
        +1
        Quote: APASUS
        Quote: Uranus
        here it is already necessary to attract those who create these microchips. and electronics engineers from high. qualifications. it is a long process. And there is no certainty that you can restore the Old. it's time to come up with other more flexible media from other materials that are less dependent on such damage! and which withstand heavy heat loads and mechanical shocks!

        Everything is working fine, the info has gone that they will take information directly from the crystal, just for this you have to wait and attract the research institute



        Exactly. It’s almost impossible to remove from the wreckage. You need to grind the hulls, weld the gold threads to the sites, connect, and read. It’s easier to pass on to specialists: Micron, for example.
      2. Ami du peuple
        Ami du peuple 21 December 2015 20: 12 New
        +1
        Quote: APASUS
        Everything is working fine, the info has gone that they will take information directly from the crystal, just for this you have to wait and attract the research institute

        Maybe someone will explain why such difficulties with the removal of information? Why now in the flight recorders do not use the good old magnetic tape and / or metal wire? I understand that the explanation, like on the surface - in a fire, such controls can burn and collapse. But, really, it is impossible to foresee the parallel use of modern solid-crystal memory and the same wire? In this particular case, there was no exposure to high temperatures - only mechanical damage associated with a fall from a ten-kilometer height, but it is still problematic to calculate the parameters, which would not have happened with traditional carriers.
        I do not in the least doubt that the Russian side is right, but such jambs in the "black box" construct really play into the hands of the enemy.
        1. Extraneous
          Extraneous 21 December 2015 20: 32 New
          +2
          The problem is the cost, complexity, recording time and weight of equipment.
          For a combat aircraft, the last point is critical.
          For the box manufacturer, the second parameter is critical.
          For the buyer - the first and third
          All in total, and led to this problem with the safety of data.
          1. Ami du peuple
            Ami du peuple 21 December 2015 21: 54 New
            +1
            Quote: Stranger
            The problem is the cost, complexity, recording time and weight of equipment.

            I do not think that an increase in the mass of the aircraft by a dozen kilograms is really critical. Complexity? Do not tell, this is technology of the middle of the last century. Just like the insignificant price of a primitive recording device, it also does not play any significant role.
            It seems that such modern flight recorders were designed by another "girl-designer": "Are there the cheapest Chinese microcircuits? We'll shove you in! We'll get a prize for a penny saving." And this, for a minute, ultimately, is flight safety, for which someone has to pay in blood.
            1. Aleksey_K
              Aleksey_K 21 December 2015 22: 59 New
              +2
              Quote: Ami du peuple
              Do not tell - this is the technology of the middle of the last century.

              Microchips (chips) memory in the middle of the last century did not exist. A patent was issued for the first development in this field only in 1972, and real production is another 10 years that must be added. Aviation is not a transistor receiver in a soap box.
              1. Ami du peuple
                Ami du peuple 21 December 2015 23: 34 New
                0
                Quote: Алексей_К
                There were no microchips (chips) in the middle of the last century

                Dear, if you are not able to carefully read the text, then you should not comment on it. It was exclusively about equipment that records information on magnetic tape or wire. This is what I mean by "mid-century technologies."
                Intend to show your awareness in the field of microelectronics development? Congratulations, you did it.
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 22 December 2015 00: 05 New
                  +4
                  And what about the paintwork on the screws? Secret varnish? In the 80 I faked plasticine seals on a tape recorder after those failures that I could not fix myself (under warranty). Maybe they have already climbed into this box, and more than once.
                  1. Aleksey_K
                    Aleksey_K 22 December 2015 13: 57 New
                    -1
                    Quote: mordvin xnumx
                    And what about the paintwork on the screws? Secret varnish? In the 80 I faked plasticine seals on a tape recorder after those failures that I could not fix myself (under warranty). Maybe they have already climbed into this box, and more than once.

                    Everything is just explained here. The blow pierced the outer shell and warped the inner one. Some bolts (screws) were simply clamped. In this case, they just can not be unscrewed. Another thing is that the designers could come up with special fasteners that could be twisted by mechanical means or even manually with the help of a special tool, but this would not help if the screws were even slightly bent. In this case, they can only be drilled.
                2. Aleksey_K
                  Aleksey_K 22 December 2015 13: 45 New
                  0
                  Quote: Ami du peuple
                  It was exclusively about equipment that records information on magnetic tape or wire. This is what I mean by "mid-century technologies."

                  In order not to argue with you in vain, you might not save in words, i.e. you need to write a little more. And as for literacy - that’s how I worked at a military factory producing equipment for something similar, but even more serious. He was a specialist included in all assembly shops, even the most closed ones, and participated in many commissions for detecting defects in radio equipment, and even had to consider the equipment of American satellites obtained by our military before the Americans.
            2. Alexdark
              Alexdark 22 December 2015 00: 05 New
              +1
              Rather, on the contrary, here you can see the hand of an old techie who has already exhausted his resource. It's like comparing North and South Korea. In North there are no "girls designers / managers", and there is no nichrome, except for a rusty rocket. In the south, however, technological growth, just due to fresh minds, girls designers. It is enough to look at some kind of California, a storehouse of young geniuses, and how you like "creative people, designers and others." Science and ingenuity only on the way, at the height of the pendoctan. Roughly speaking, I mean that we need new cadres just the same, not mothballs. Yes, and I see, here the majority is against creativity, out-of-the-box thinking, art and fantasy. Consider this something obscene, abusive. Okay, we've already seen how it was. The whole country is the same type, buildings of the same type, everything is the same type. Creativity and creativity, things are incredibly useful and useful. Do not be a cattle with limited thinking, with limited thought. Nevertheless, the country where this creativity has been supported all its life is still standing, and the other, where it was the other way around, is not there. Conclusions...
              And do not think that I am liberal here, I show love for the western shores. It didn’t fucking fall for me, their coast is overseas. But I am confused by the universal love for the prohibition of thinking, yes, yes, creativity, art and fantasy on the part of many of this resource. The working class cannot be limited. Everything in this life is important. Including spiritual development, non-standard thought. I am a human being, not a robot. In the same USSR, this was more than once ridiculed and criticized, in various favorite and popular films. Remember at least a carnival night with his quote - "There is an attitude to celebrate the New Year cheerfully", and think about what was interpreted there. So, in your opinion, there should be some "robots" working in factories. And to shoot creativity, people of art and free thought. Khrenushki.
              1. BABAY22
                BABAY22 22 December 2015 01: 54 New
                0
                For 25 years, everyone has become accustomed to the fact that "girls designers" work exclusively in the interests of show business and similar areas. And in the defense industry, only old grandfathers work, whom the new Russia has thrown to the sidelines of life. This is really so. A designer girl needs a beautiful life, where money plays an important role.
                There will be money in the defense industry, there will be interesting areas of work - these girls are designers with great pleasure to switch from show business to the design of upper stages of landing modules of interplanetary stations. It’s so romantic, interesting, and the corresponding salary. And it will be with us as South Creus and California.
                Here the whole question is in setting interesting ambitious tasks by the country's leadership and decent funding for these projects.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. vovanpain
      vovanpain 21 December 2015 20: 07 New
      13
      the more caustic passages regarding the situation appear, for example, in the Turkish media.

      I would like to remind all Churek media of the Russian proverb: -Laughs the one who laughs last. Still ahead of the pasties.
      1. Tiger4
        Tiger4 21 December 2015 20: 11 New
        0
        laughs he who laughs without CONSEQUENCES!
        1. Gardener91
          Gardener91 22 December 2015 01: 10 New
          +1
          Laughs the one who laughs after the last.
  2. sever.56
    sever.56 21 December 2015 19: 22 New
    +3
    Let the Turkish media shut up with their "comments".
    1. Heritologist
      Heritologist 21 December 2015 19: 26 New
      0
      Unfortunately, they will not shut up ... After all, it’s only at hand. They will gloat and blame the intentional damage to the recorders.
      1. sever.56
        sever.56 21 December 2015 19: 48 New
        +9
        I, at one time, was engaged in the repair of torpedoes for the Navy. So I can say that restoring the data of devices-recorders of "product" parameters in case of its damage is a complicated thing. As a rule, there are up to three devices on each product that record the parameters. In the event of damage to one, or all, it was necessary to collect information piece by piece from each, where that was preserved. If the plane had black boxes "with an element base, where information is stored at several points, then it is possible to read all the parameters. It will take a long time, but, most importantly, to get objective information in order to poke the West with a snout in the mud, so as not to use gunfire.
        1. Just BB
          Just BB 22 December 2015 03: 54 New
          +1
          As the hero of the film said through the mouth of Frunzik Mkrtychan: "I'll tell you one smart thought, but don't be offended!"
          it is possible to read all the parameters. It will take a long time, but, the main thing is to get objective information

          No one will ever believe this information!
          And not only for political reasons.
          And even, no matter how insulting, for technical and legal reasons
      2. The comment was deleted.
  3. avvg
    avvg 21 December 2015 19: 23 New
    0
    There is no doubt that the Turks are to blame and deliberately shot down our plane. Just deciphering the black box once again indicates the guilt of the Turks.
    1. Civil
      Civil 21 December 2015 19: 28 New
      +3
      Quote: avvg
      There is no doubt that the Turks are to blame and deliberately shot down our plane.

      so they did not deny
    2. Altona
      Altona 21 December 2015 19: 43 New
      0
      Quote: avvg
      There is no doubt that the Turks are to blame and deliberately shot down our plane.

      ---------------------------
      The question is not who, but where? To the border with Turkey or beyond?
      1. scientist
        scientist 21 December 2015 20: 03 New
        +2
        Quote: Altona
        To the border with Turkey or beyond?

        Naturally for! But as I understand it, the Turks claim that the plane still crossed the border, i.e. formally was a violator and they knocked him into a dagon. Radar objective monitoring systems, in this case, weak evidence, there is no guarantee of accurate reference. But the data from the GPS / Glonass navigation satellites is already an indisputable fact. With such evidence, you can safely go to any court. I am sure that the research institutes will find a way to extract the necessary data.
  4. venaya
    venaya 21 December 2015 19: 24 New
    +1
    the issue of attracting specialized research institutions of the Russian Federation, which have the ability to extract information directly from the chip chip, is being studied

    This is not such a great technical complexity, it is important that the crystals themselves are not destroyed. The question is different: how, how in this case to attract international experts to this work?
  5. Vladimir 1964
    Vladimir 1964 21 December 2015 19: 25 New
    +2
    It should be noted that the more often from the mouth of the Russian military appear statements that with the decoding of the recorder of the Su-24 shot down by the Turks, insurmountable difficulties may arise, the more caustic passages regarding the situation appear, for example, in the Turkish media.


    It is interesting what else can be expected from the Turks, naturally it is a joy to them that we cannot provide objective information on the destruction of our aircraft.
  6. Great-grandfather of Zeus
    Great-grandfather of Zeus 21 December 2015 19: 25 New
    +4
    We are waiting for yells from "sworn friends" that we ourselves broke the microcircuits in order to hide a terrible secret - our "drying" in the sky of Turkey was at least a day at least, stood on the handbrake behind the clouds!
    1. Altona
      Altona 21 December 2015 21: 34 New
      +1
      Quote: Great-grandfather of Zeus
      We are waiting for yells from "sworn friends" that we ourselves broke the microcircuits in order to hide a terrible secret - our "drying" in the sky of Turkey was at least a day at least, stood on the handbrake behind the clouds!

      ------------------------
      What are they waiting for? I spread it, you immediately apply minuses here. I won’t post anything else. In general, on the Censor it was sucked and branded a week ago.
  7. Altona
    Altona 21 December 2015 19: 28 New
    0
    It should be noted that the more often from the mouth of the Russian military appear statements that with the decoding of the recorder of the Su-24 shot down by the Turks, insurmountable difficulties may arise, the more caustic passages regarding the situation appear, for example, in the Turkish media.
    -------------------------------
    I read what srach was on the CENSOR. NO after opening the container and detecting broken chips. There was something. However, I’ll better put screenshots ...
    1. Extraneous
      Extraneous 21 December 2015 20: 49 New
      +7
      In this case, the true truth is written in this screenshot. The box was made disgustingly and it all looked on the video very shamefully.
  8. 4thParasinok
    4thParasinok 21 December 2015 19: 30 New
    +3
    According to General Bainetov, the recorder case itself received penetrating damage
    so they used to lie claiming that the rest of the "black box" is intact and not damaged?
    The question is what to believe in these of. messages?
    1. Extraneous
      Extraneous 21 December 2015 20: 57 New
      +4
      "the rest of the box" is a parametric recorder. One device out of two. The voice recorder did not survive the explosion. The outside of the recorder body was damaged from one corner. But the inner capsule was completely intact. This can be seen in the video. Failure to comply with elementary technologies to protect the insides and led to the destruction of the chips.
      1. alexng
        alexng 21 December 2015 21: 09 New
        +1
        This is where this infa comes from, and of a completely different nature, and also in the text there is a note WHEN it is not possible, and then came the fantasies of bedding from the media.
        http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151221/1346287130.html
    2. alexng
      alexng 21 December 2015 21: 04 New
      0
      It is quite possible banal stuffing to make doubts about the investigation. How many different jambs with the supply of information were already there, and the denials went to the point of perspiration.
      1. Extraneous
        Extraneous 21 December 2015 21: 44 New
        0
        I watched the video in its entirety and immediately said that the probability of saving data is very low. Out of the 16 chips, only three looked intact. Most simply fell apart. The crystal takes up a lot of space in these flash memory chips. Damage to the case automatically means damage to the chip itself of this type of chip. The fact that one of the crystals turned out to be intact, with such an assembly - a miracle.
        1. alexng
          alexng 21 December 2015 23: 12 New
          0
          From official sources, there is no such information about how many chips were damaged before the crystals were destroyed - it looks more like "well-wishers". Look in the internet for the first source of this information and what kind of information is there, so it will immediately become clear where the flies are and where the cutlets are.
  9. David 2633
    David 2633 21 December 2015 19: 35 New
    -12
    how much can you lie, and are you sure that our very stigma is not in the gun ?!
    1. Altona
      Altona 21 December 2015 19: 41 New
      +7
      Quote: David 2633
      how much can you lie, and are you sure that our very stigma is not in the gun ?!

      -------------------------
      But where is the data from the flight # MH17 mailboxes? What’s up with the investigation, by the way? And they will read the data if the chip itself is not damaged. So far, only mechanical damage to the plastic cases of the microcircuits is visible.
      1. Rader
        Rader 21 December 2015 21: 38 New
        +6
        Quote: David 2633
        how much can you lie, and are you sure that our very stigma is not in the gun ?!

        But where is the data from the flight # MH17 mailboxes?

        Heh ... Eugene, I will continue ... Where is the data from the black boxes of Boeing that flew into the WTC buildings on September 11? What what are you saying? Say that the boxes were destroyed during the blow and the subsequent fire, and the passport of the terrorist in the same plane survived? Why is the ordinary meteorite-Chelyabinsk captured dozens of video cameras, and in the public domain there is only one video of the Boeing ram of the Pentagon building (one of the most protected objects in the world!). And even then, this video can be anything you want, ranging in size from a tomahawk, to the AN-124 ...
    2. Heritologist
      Heritologist 21 December 2015 19: 41 New
      +8
      I.e? Even with the most unfavorable permissible option that our plane flew into Turkish territory for several seconds (which is refuted), this is not a reason to shoot it down.
      This is contrary to all international standards.
      There was a situation when our plane flew to Israel. He was contacted, warned and the whole incident was over. And here is a clear treacherous attack. And already on Syrian territory.
      And how many Turks violated the airspace of Greece and Syria do not bother you?
      1. -Traveller-
        -Traveller- 21 December 2015 22: 15 New
        -1
        Syrians shot down a Turkish plane, Israel - a Syrian one. what is the problem, what international standards? do not fly in and you will be whole.
        these are combat aircraft, who knows what the pilot has in mind? he may be bombed, it’s not a civilian plane with tourists and business travelers.
        ours decided to hang out, but the Turks did not appreciate the show-offs. do not exclude such an option?
        1. almost demobil
          almost demobil 22 December 2015 04: 56 New
          0
          Quote: -Traveller-
          Ashi decided to hang out, but the Turks did not appreciate the show-off. do not exclude such an option?

          This option is excluded. I can’t say for sure that our pilot did not enter the territory of the Turks, but that he did it specifically for posturing-delirium. According to existing rules in peacetime, the pilot is warned with standard phrases about approaching (if the course is kept at the border) to the ribbon, then there is a warning about crossing the border and the actions of fighter aircraft are forced to withdraw abroad, or to land at the specified aerodrome. The use of weapons is possible only with obvious aggression against objects on the territory of the state. Chebureks neglected all the rules. Was there an intersection or not, it is not so important, they are bastards.
    3. Belarus
      Belarus 21 December 2015 22: 06 New
      0
      Dear, are you a citizen of which country ????
  10. Altona
    Altona 21 December 2015 19: 37 New
    +1
    These are squeals from the CENSOR in the comments. Comments in the style of "rashka fsyo". laughing
  11. MIKHALYCH1
    MIKHALYCH1 21 December 2015 19: 37 New
    +1
    There is no point in deciphering it already ... ISIL needs to be wetted and who supports them! Let the bastards fly ... angry
  12. NIKNN
    NIKNN 21 December 2015 19: 41 New
    +2
    Quote: venaya
    the issue of attracting specialized research institutions of the Russian Federation, which have the ability to extract information directly from the chip chip, is being studied

    This is not such a great technical complexity, it is important that the crystals themselves are not destroyed. The question is different: how, how in this case to attract international experts to this work?


    Information can be read even from damaged crystals using an electron microscope (maybe there are other ways). The case is expensive, but when you take pictures, pictures are taken, here is the evidence.

    They said on TV that the Americans were also present. I wonder if they decided to record our "failure"?
  13. David 2633
    David 2633 21 December 2015 19: 46 New
    -11
    watching an interview with our pilot, one immediately catches some kind of unnaturalness in his behavior, as if it were a production, something is clearly not right here. And do not immediately hang up labels, just a sober look at the situation
    1. Heritologist
      Heritologist 21 December 2015 20: 04 New
      -5
      Quote: David 2633
      watching an interview with our pilot, one immediately catches some kind of unnaturalness in his behavior, as if it were a production

      Here I agree, the text was apparently prepared.
      Nevertheless, I expressed my thoughts on the destruction of the aircraft to you above.
      Quote: David 2633
      just a sober look at the situation
      I am for it.
    2. rudolff
      rudolff 21 December 2015 20: 13 New
      11
      David, what kind of unnatural behavior are you talking about? I don’t know, maybe you are a cyborg or a terminator and emotions are alien to you, but ... I don’t know how I would have behaved if I had survived a combat mission with bombing, a missile strike, bailout, machine-gun fire during descent parachute, then throwing in the woods in the mountains, knowing that if the bearded are caught, their heads will be cut off, this is the most harmless! Then search for your own, a meeting, a march to the base under fire ... And then some kind of commanding officer comes up and like: this is it ... make a statement to the press! I would send to hell! But the man had the strength to write a few words on a piece of paper and read it out. Well done! Well, they still were not forced to answer questions.
    3. Extraneous
      Extraneous 21 December 2015 21: 01 New
      0
      Sit for dozens of days in the bushes, when bandits with machine guns hang around and look for you, you will probably stop looking natural. You will depart at least six months.
    4. serezhasoldatow
      serezhasoldatow 21 December 2015 21: 50 New
      +3
      After watching an interview with you after you were shot down and for ten hours the Ishilovites searched for you, I did not notice something natural and relaxed in your behavior. And what happened to your voice? Some kind of unnatural! Poorly done. Huge MINUS to you.
      PS Unfortunately, the site rules do not allow you to say everything in Russian ..
    5. -Traveller-
      -Traveller- 21 December 2015 22: 18 New
      -2
      the video is absolutely staged, it reminds all kinds of TV quizzes on the air with bad actors. our television style is felt.
    6. Gardener91
      Gardener91 22 December 2015 01: 25 New
      +1
      The man survived, but had to go to the forefathers! Obviously knows more, but Nizya. And you are behavior.
    7. ancient
      ancient 22 December 2015 15: 48 New
      +2
      Quote: David 2633
      watching an interview with our pilot


      Looking from where ... from the sofa, with a can of beer? and then he made .. his "assessment"?

      Have you even seen a plane at least near .. not to mention more? wassat

      One minus mine soldier
  14. David 2633
    David 2633 21 December 2015 19: 52 New
    -11
    cons probably cheered patriots or kremleboty)))))))
    1. Altona
      Altona 21 December 2015 20: 01 New
      +8
      Quote: David 2633
      cons probably cheered patriots or kremleboty)))))))

      ----------------------------
      No, local goliaths, Mr. David. It would be easier as it were with labels.
    2. Heritologist
      Heritologist 21 December 2015 20: 10 New
      +3
      Quote: David 2633
      cons likely cheers patriots instructed or kremleboty

      The minus I really put to you in the first comment. You call for an adequate analysis, but you yourself sink to primitive judgments - "How much can you lie, but are you sure that our own stigma is not in the gun ?!"
      And I will disappoint you ... I’m neither a patriot nor a Kremlin boat. Rather, the opposite.
    3. ancient
      ancient 22 December 2015 15: 50 New
      0
      Quote: David 2633
      cons probably cheered patriots or kremleboty)))))))


      I wrote to you above .. ONE minus mine soldier Well, to call me "uryakalka", and even more so .. "kremlebot" ... how much you need to drink, what would ... lol
      So here .. one minus mine! soldier
  15. Alexander_
    Alexander_ 21 December 2015 20: 03 New
    +5
    Still, the students sculpted a registrar, completely unreliable mechanically. Mess.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 21 December 2015 20: 10 New
      +1
      Previously, no one knew that we were saving on black boxes.
      1. Tiger4
        Tiger4 21 December 2015 20: 13 New
        +2
        But Serdyukov is beyond jurisdiction!
    2. Altona
      Altona 21 December 2015 21: 32 New
      0
      Quote: Alexander_
      Still, the students sculpted a registrar, completely unreliable mechanically. Mess.

      ----------------------------
      Pupils alright, pile up. But who experienced it, why didn’t they express their thoughts? Why instead of compound foam balls? Bubbles are held best by bubble cellophane, in which everyone loves to burst these bubbles. Why couldn't something be used? As for the compound, I’m not sure, because the mass of this plastic sealant from acceleration, which will give a blow, will grow many times and will rip the microcircuit off the legs. In general, as they say, it would be necessary to carefully approach the development of recorders. Previously, they wrote on metal wire, it is reliable, but the amount of information is small. The electronic unit will record several orders of magnitude more. And with regards to the case of microcircuits. When will we make normal ABS plastic? What is it? Is such an unimaginable technology straight? Half of the quality of the gadgets lies in the good quality of the plastic case. Yes, and the memory chips can probably be done by ourselves normally, but still there is no god knows what. According to 128-nm technology, at least ...
      1. serezhasoldatow
        serezhasoldatow 21 December 2015 21: 52 New
        +1
        The customer and military acceptance must be brought to justice.
        1. Gardener91
          Gardener91 22 December 2015 01: 37 New
          +1
          the recorder must meet many requirements. I will omit the number of channels and recorded flight and operation parameters of aircraft systems, a power plant, a navigation system and a weapon control system. Withstand an overload of 100g, a temperature of 1000 centigrade, short-term, salt water, immersion depth, taking into account the preservation of information. the first SARPs infa generally written on film.
  16. enhansment
    enhansment 21 December 2015 20: 06 New
    +7
    Well, why all forever through the ass?
  17. AIR-ZNAK
    AIR-ZNAK 21 December 2015 20: 16 New
    +1
    An on-board recorder was made in Smolensk at the plant * Meter * Perhaps the factory workers will be able to say something
    1. Altona
      Altona 21 December 2015 23: 44 New
      0
      Quote: AIR-ZNAK
      An on-board recorder was made in Smolensk at the plant * Meter * Perhaps the factory workers will be able to say something

      --------------------------
      Yes, they said already, such a comment is devastating, so to speak ... I was even surprised that this recorder costs 500 (yes, yes, half a million rubles).

      http://argumentiru.com/army/2015/12/416773
      1. AID.S
        AID.S 22 December 2015 03: 34 New
        0
        Quote: Altona
        comment, devastating so to speak ...

        Quote: Altona
        http://argumentiru.com/army/2015/12/416773

        Such a comment (on the link) and I can write, the only thing besides the statement in it
      2. AID.S
        AID.S 22 December 2015 05: 09 New
        +1
        Quote: Altona
        comment, devastating so to speak ...

        Quote: Altona
        http://argumentiru.com/army/2015/12/416773

        Such a comment (on the link) and I can write, except, as it seems to me, an unfounded statement that he was a military representative and personally participated in the opening of black boxes. If it really is that the black box is so bad, then is it not the fault of such, if I may say so, similar "military representatives" who ate alcohol (my unfounded statement), instead of performing their direct duties? I also want to ask, - who can prove that the recorder has not experienced loads exceeding the stated ones?
        As for the information - and what can it prove to the West or the Turks? They will tell us that this is not the right box or will not answer at all. The box is valuable to us as an additional long-term informational occasion to remind you about a downed plane.
  18. Vadim237
    Vadim237 21 December 2015 20: 16 New
    +1
    Like it’s cool, but our VKS bent down - 4-0 in their favor, shot down the plane, lost the pilot, managed the rescue operation - lost Mi 8 and infantrymen, the EW complex on Su 24 did not work, and now it turned out that we had airplanes defective black boxes are standing.
    1. -Traveller-
      -Traveller- 21 December 2015 22: 39 New
      0
      most goals we ourselves to our own goal
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 21 December 2015 23: 21 New
        0
        I’m generally talking about two killed servicemen and two lost pieces of equipment.
  19. atos_kin
    atos_kin 21 December 2015 20: 17 New
    +5
    This is some kind of shame (s). Here the "scoop" did not allow himself to make such flimsy products because the representatives of the customer would simply strangle such "designers" with their hands.
  20. Was mammoth
    Was mammoth 21 December 2015 20: 19 New
    +8
    I watched the opening of the "black box". Even then, it made a depressing impression and I realized that there would be no decryption. Why? This was discussed at VO 18.12.15. Then I did not share my impressions. everything was said, the device was designed and slapped in violation of a whole sea of ​​rules and GOSTs.
    I hope that the command will draw conclusions and there will be no such products on our aircraft.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 21 December 2015 20: 26 New
      +1
      No matter how similar "design miracles" appear in other military equipment.
      1. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 21 December 2015 21: 14 New
        +1
        Quote: Vadim237
        No matter how similar "design miracles" appear in other military equipment.

        Alas! There are, and not only "black boxes". The discipline of creating technology from design to installation is sometimes brought to please the "golden calf". Military acceptance is one of the bureaucratic methods of barring marriage.
        The political side of the plane tragedy is clear to everyone. But she discovered a technical problem. And it must be solved. And not only with "black boxes".
      2. ancient
        ancient 22 December 2015 15: 53 New
        0
        Quote: Vadim237
        No matter how similar "design miracles" appear in other military equipment.


        Are "dear" .. as .. "relatives" are the same and 2 series and 3rd .. books only .. "add" as well .... "stone age".
        And to put at least a drill request
    2. Tiger4
      Tiger4 21 December 2015 20: 29 New
      +1
      Apparently Shoigu dropped the black box when he was taking it PERSONALLY to the president!
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 21 December 2015 20: 36 New
        +1
        Yes, the second time from the plane.
  21. David 2633
    David 2633 21 December 2015 20: 27 New
    +1
    Can anyone explain to us if this device was not produced during the Soviet era?
    1. Extraneous
      Extraneous 21 December 2015 20: 33 New
      +2
      This device has been "modernized" in our times.
      1. David 2633
        David 2633 21 December 2015 20: 59 New
        +1
        So it is necessary to sue those who developed it and gave permission for its installation and the designers have a question about the place of its installation, otherwise it turns out that the height of the shot was not high and the speeds were not supersonic and the device was damaged so reading is not possible.
        1. Extraneous
          Extraneous 21 December 2015 21: 23 New
          -2
          Conclusions will undoubtedly follow. It will only cost a pretty penny.
          The speed of a plane with an idle engine = 200-250 km / h. As a matter of fact, the free fall rate of the body. The power load when it hit the ground, transferred by the structural elements of the aircraft to the black box boards, simply exploded the microcircuits in plastic cases. Roughly speaking: the box has already hit the ground, and the microcircuits were still striving to continue moving by inertia and the case could not withstand the overload.
          1. ancient
            ancient 22 December 2015 18: 24 New
            +3
            Quote: Stranger
            The speed of a plane with an idle engine = 200-250 km / h.


            Can you just put the MINUS? Because they wrote .. such a STUPIDness soldier (forgive me mine (french slang) hi
            But it was never thought that the BODY has a different shape, a different position when falling, different weights, etc. etc.? wink
            Here is just the case that the SIZE really has a VALUE .. this time
            Secondly, the AIRPLANE ALWAYS has an initial TRANSFER SPEED, so the engine "worked" when falling or not .. the speed in a collision with the ground will be MUCH higher than your "declared" = 200-250-km / h soldier
            1. Extraneous
              Extraneous 22 December 2015 20: 17 New
              0
              I agree - the calculation is half-understated should be 400-450 km / h

              Physics says that bodies fall with the same acceleration regardless of their mass. I agree that the shape of the body has aerodynamic significance. But you saw the video and had to pay attention to the fact that the plane went into a dive. The air resistance is minimal. Drying before the defeat went through the last U-turn and went in to land. The speed was not maximum. When changing the trajectory, the inertia of horizontal flight led to diagonal diving. The rate of fall on the horizontal speed in this case is practically independent. So, the impact force was on accelerating the free fall of the body in the atmosphere.

              "Now to science. The video of the incident shows one of the Su-24s falling to the ground. It takes about 30 seconds." Since the vertical movement depends solely on gravity (g = 9.81m / s, z = gt / 2) , you can calculate that the plane was at an altitude of at least 4500 meters, - physicists write in their blog, "
              A source: http://pikabu.ru/story/belgiyskie_fiziki_proverili_versii_turtsii_i_rossii_o_sbi
              tom_su24_3812723

              Dry was empty after work. total weight of about 30 tons. altitude is about 5000. we get about 410 km / h
              1. Andrey Yuryevich
                Andrey Yuryevich 9 January 2016 20: 18 New
                0
                Quote: Stranger
                I agree - the calculation is half-understated should be 400-450 km / h

                DISAGREE! facts to the studio! analysis of the disaster is not professional, or, as such, they try to present it.
    2. Altona
      Altona 21 December 2015 21: 41 New
      0
      Quote: David 2633
      Can anyone explain to us if this device was not produced during the Soviet era?

      ----------------------------
      In Soviet times, they wrote on the wire, the transition to microcircuits was already in this century. In any case, there is evidence of external control. The recorder will give data on the flight parameters and the moment of the rocket’s strike, any crew’s speech data. If it gives of course.
    3. ancient
      ancient 22 December 2015 15: 54 New
      +2
      Quote: David 2633
      Wasn’t this device manufactured during the USSR?


      Yes, in Kiev!
  22. Tiger4
    Tiger4 21 December 2015 20: 27 New
    +3
    But we make rockets, block the Yenisei, and also in the field of ballet we are ahead of the rest!
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 21 December 2015 20: 39 New
      +3
      Yes, missiles probably have the same assembly of boards and low-quality microprocessors - they fly half a way and self-destruct from the failure of control systems.
  23. Pencil
    Pencil 21 December 2015 20: 30 New
    0
    But it seems that the whole case was shown a little earlier in the photo ... And another question - how did the chips inside the whole case collapse? How did this design go through extreme tests? And another question that I previously voiced - is it really impossible to make this unit in the usual version, lighter and simpler, and this allows you to place dozens of them on the aircraft, provided that they shoot back and parachute down (naturally, that splashdown and beacon will be provided) Naturally, all this will be delivered to the surface in good condition and guaranteed to be found. Who is interfering - or because it is not spelled out in GOST?
    1. Extraneous
      Extraneous 21 December 2015 20: 39 New
      +1
      It is easier to place a double box in the catapult chair, then the data is more likely to be stored.
      Have you been on a roller coaster ride?
      Remember the lightness in the body when the trolley flies down and overload, when after lowering the trolley tends to go up?
      The effect is the same. The box is practically indestructible, only a fragile structure was placed inside it, which could not withstand shock overload when the plane crashed.
      1. Gardener91
        Gardener91 22 December 2015 01: 44 New
        0
        Dubbing will go through GLONAS to an independent drive, probably already applicable.
  24. AdekvatNICK
    AdekvatNICK 21 December 2015 20: 31 New
    +4
    . And this despite the fact that the plane did not fall from the maximum height for which these boxes are designed to withstand. This is a minus to our defense industry. Everything was thought out and even invited foreign specialists, but. This confusion is simply hellish.
  25. David 2633
    David 2633 21 December 2015 20: 37 New
    -6
    in this whole story, a bunch of non-docking here is clearly not everything as presented to us by the official authorities. Alas, we most likely will not find out the truth, most likely it will turn out like with the Kursk submarine - it sank (((((
    1. GRAY
      GRAY 21 December 2015 21: 28 New
      +5
      Quote: David 2633
      it's not like the official authorities present us

      Turkish?
  26. DMB3000
    DMB3000 21 December 2015 20: 44 New
    0
    Quote: Uranus
    here it is already necessary to attract those who create these microchips. and electronics engineers from high. qualifications. it is a long process. And there is no certainty that you can restore the Old. it's time to come up with other more flexible media from other materials that are less dependent on such damage! and which withstand heavy heat loads and mechanical shocks!

    any most perfect black box can be damaged by a direct hit on the box. you know * urki that if you shoot down the plane, the black boxes are destroyed and the pilots were supposed to die both. that is, information should not have remained; this is a villainous calculation. whose is at the tail of the plane where the rocket was fired.
  27. Prototype
    Prototype 21 December 2015 20: 50 New
    +4
    In the photo there is one surviving microcircuit in a heavy-duty pink ceramic hull with gold-plated contacts (such were made in the USSR, military acceptance and strict rejection, I am surprised from what bins they still find). This is something like register 564 IR9, through it is accessed directly to flash memory chips (black, a Chinese remake in fragile cases). Another cant: this circuit board is mounted with only four screws in the corners, which is suitable only for household appliances. By the way, at one time, speed sensors were produced for Russian Railways, so there the printed circuit board was flooded with epoxy resin, of course it was not repairable, but it was not possible to destroy.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 21 December 2015 21: 19 New
      0
      Judging by the photo, this is the board you're talking about, new.
      1. Rader
        Rader 21 December 2015 22: 10 New
        0
        The most "bad" thing is not in Chinese flash drives, and not in the register (By the way, Alexander, how do you know that this is IR9?), But in the way of fastening. It is quite possible that the board was ripped off the mountings, while still in the air, at the time of the missile hit. Although, this is not important, in any case, the board was ripped off and it, inside its "armor of the case", appeared as if in a washing machine ... If it were covered with varnish, as is done everywhere and in civilian products, it would obviously be no worse ... after all, the normal mounting of the board, maybe solid-state drives in shockproof "packaging" are pennies ... request
    2. Madlinx
      Madlinx 22 December 2015 04: 33 New
      0
      I once repaired these same traffic police, it was flooded with a compound.
  28. uzer 13
    uzer 13 21 December 2015 20: 55 New
    +2
    Emergency recorders of such a wretched design are generally unsuitable for performing the tasks assigned to them, schoolchildren from the Skillful Hands circle would do better. All stores sell external flash memory cards, which are an order of magnitude better than these oak microcircuits, which in our time are preserved only in museums. It was quite possible to create an interface and write duplicate information to external memory located in different parts of the aircraft.
  29. aleks.29ru
    aleks.29ru 21 December 2015 21: 12 New
    +1
    Yes, I was surprised by the design of the box. The boards are mounted on racks. It will fail when it falls from the table.
  30. lopvlad
    lopvlad 21 December 2015 21: 48 New
    +2
    Quote: NIKNN
    Information can be read even from damaged crystals using an electron microscope


    this is if the chip chip is not damaged. Based on the fact that the chip is located in the center of the chip and most of the memory chips in the video are just broken in the center, then the chances are almost zero.
    As for the "strength" of the memory microcircuits, you cannot break them in half with your hands (only with a hammer blow, and even then the microcircuit will not scatter to pieces but will look like a broken windshield of a car). The whole problem is not in the microcircuits, but in the internal structure of the black box ( where the data is located). If there were bent metal racks and broke the textolite, then which microcircuits were supposed to survive ?!
    If only these microcircuits are armor-piercing, then it is possible only then.

    In general, this is a failure. The one who designed and produced this "black box" for the defense industry should be given a real term.
  31. Vladimir65
    Vladimir65 21 December 2015 21: 48 New
    +5
    When you see launches of cruise missiles from the Caspian Sea on the positions of thugs, launches of Sineva from underwater position, videos and patriotic broadcasts on Zvezda TV, you think: well, at least something is being done by military factories, it's not so bad in our military-industrial complex, which Some modern developments are. And so you think, until you look behind the facade. Moreover, it turned out so uncomfortable that you look behind him on the air ...
    Opening a black box from a Su-24 shot down by the Turks ... what can I say ... how softer ... it's a complete disgrace, embarrassment, fiasco, crap !!! We saw a 20-year triumph of the market and the wonders of privatization, the result of poorly paid engineers and girls pretending to be engineers spending time on the VK network, irresponsibility and sloppiness. But PR technologies have stepped far forward: live broadcasts of airstrikes, missile launches, destruction of targets ...
  32. Old warrant officer
    Old warrant officer 21 December 2015 21: 59 New
    0
    And in my humble opinion, yours just need a break for something. Perhaps to provide more complete data or to provoke the Turks to reckless statements.
  33. shura7782
    shura7782 21 December 2015 22: 06 New
    +4
    I had to deal with information recovery with the Tester -U3L several times. The destruction of the magnetic tape into small fragments was in the area of ​​the recording head. They collected the tape in crumbs and decrypted the information in regimental conditions. In a specific case, the information carrier is a microcircuit. Regimental specialists cannot cope with such destruction.
    How fasteners are made in the casing ..... I refuse to understand.
    1. Belarus
      Belarus 21 December 2015 22: 09 New
      +1
      As for me, this is how I ask myself the question: what is wrong here? And as for me, such a statement seems to me to be some kind of "maneuver" due to any circumstances or situations. Perhaps they are playing for time for something or something else. Because so much is happening behind closed doors that one can only guess.
      1. shura7782
        shura7782 21 December 2015 23: 07 New
        +1
        It is not clear what information they want to get from the recorder. In height, speed and heading, the accuracy of the coordinates will be below the plinth. The recorder does not register current coordinates.
        1. Just BB
          Just BB 22 December 2015 04: 17 New
          +3
          In-in!
          Two-star general decided to show off in front of television cameras!
          Dunce not realizing that because of his stupidity and illiteracy, he is substituting the country.
          And the environment is the same - the signalman was sent to comment on the dismantling of the box fool
        2. ancient
          ancient 22 December 2015 15: 58 New
          +1
          Quote: shura7782
          The recorder does not register current coordinates.


          And he, ZBN, does not "write" any "navigation" at all .. everything goes only to TBNK soldier
        3. ancient
          ancient 22 December 2015 15: 58 New
          0
          Quote: shura7782
          The recorder does not register current coordinates.


          And he, ZBN, does not "write" any "navigation" at all .. everything goes only to TBNK soldier
    2. Just BB
      Just BB 22 December 2015 04: 11 New
      +1
      Who allowed you
      They collected the tape in crumbs and decrypted the information in regimental conditions
      ?
      The fact that it is possible to do - yes, but this is the "bread" of at least the flying laboratory of the district, and even then not always
  34. fest 1973
    fest 1973 21 December 2015 22: 25 New
    0
    Quote: venaya
    the issue of attracting specialized research institutions of the Russian Federation, which have the ability to extract information directly from the chip chip, is being studied

    This is not such a great technical complexity, it is important that the crystals themselves are not destroyed. The question is different: how, how in this case to attract international experts to this work?
  35. kotev19
    kotev19 21 December 2015 22: 36 New
    0
    Why satellites. why closed and free 24-hour communication channels, why computer technology and ground-based data collection centers ... A little imagination and ... the idea turned into reality !!! hi
  36. Alexdark
    Alexdark 21 December 2015 23: 29 New
    +3
    No "research institute" will help. We decided to turn to scientists ... The fees are Chinese, we don't make our own. All these research institutes still live in the twentieth century. Some old people are left, who will only deal with magnetic tape at the most ... Yes, I can already hear the minuses flying, but why not look facts in the eyes, really. If we don't know how to make some microcircuits, but what are there microcircuits, I'm sure ballpoint pens too. (Essentially, we do nothing at all, except for the axes of chairs. Even though they are from China). Then what kind of scientists are there to turn to? All smart ones died out, even in the USSR. There are no scientists in the new Russia. This criticism is friends, healthy and helpful. Unfortunately, that's the case.
    The cars are assembled from foreign components, there, even military samples are not ours at all, everything is stuffed with not our own. Kamaz is a drone (probably there are no analogues as always), it turns out it's a Mercedes with a KAMAZ nameplate. Military equipment? All imported, takes pride straight. The warrior, the maximum fabric was able to sew, only capable of this. Nobody needs a smartphone, with two screens, it has nothing of its own. The listings are endless. And this is a problem, this is a disaster and a shame. And they say they will turn to "scientists". Which ones? I don't know those. Ninety years old are not counted.
    1. Gardener91
      Gardener91 22 December 2015 01: 53 New
      0
      except for old frames, I share everything
  37. moreman71
    moreman71 21 December 2015 23: 41 New
    -1
    Assuming that there was no "black box" at all. From the word completely. And then what ? “Hold me, or I'll knock him!” They came up with this hemorrhoid with a box to limit ourselves to the “tomato embargo”.
  38. Aleksey_K
    Aleksey_K 21 December 2015 23: 54 New
    +2
    In the 1998 year, speaking in the State Duma, Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Air Force Viktor Kot stated that “Su-24 are by far the most emergency aircraft in military aviation.”

    Now readers of the Military Review ask a question. What's wrong with the black box? This type of plane crashes every year, explodes and that nobody knew about the flaws in the "black box" design? At each accident, this box is opened and checked, and naturally its "bad" strength characteristics should have been revealed long ago.

    Now, looking at the breakdowns in the drawer on the screen of the TV-box, YOU have all become the smartest designers in the field of creating heavy-duty electronic equipment. Directly bury the talents in the ground. Run and teach designers how and what to do!

    I’ll just add from myself. Nothing can be created in the world of super durable. Everything is created with the probability of not destruction under certain conditions. So this box fell into conditions that it was not designed for - that's all. The area visited by the box was subjected to severe bombardment and shelling from artillery. Judging by the breakdown of the outer case - the impact on the box was just terrifying, possibly a direct hit and explosion. But not air-to-air missiles. These missiles explode when approaching the aircraft and hit the aircraft with fragmentation filling, as the probability of hitting an aircraft in this case increases several times.

    And as you all know, everything that enters the army is being tested. So draw conclusions, only the right ones, and not the fantasies of a couch flight.
    1. Just BB
      Just BB 22 December 2015 04: 24 New
      +1
      Nothing can be created in the world of super durable. Everything is created with the probability of not destruction under certain conditions

      And there was no need for a drive with a metal tape.
      An idea came up to speed up the process of rewriting information in preparation for a second flight. It was proposed to install a second operational storage device (a la "telegeroy"). But someone decided that two drives are a luxury and for some reason the last one remained!
    2. Lunic
      Lunic 22 December 2015 08: 16 New
      0
      You are unfortunately right. To find fault with the hackwork of others, here we were almost all reckless. All specialists are so incredible (including me)
      And to offer something of their own there is no one yet ..
      For example, in our country over the hill (see the flag on the profile picture) they have a slightly different attitude to such problems. If the campaign or even the state cannot build something in good quality, they announce a tender where they describe the requirements for the product and the terms of the transaction. there are a lot of people who want to participate in such tenders. Whoever offers the best and better product then gets a contract .. He personally worked in one small campaign (21 people), which drove the cool corporation out of the Gostender only because they offered better equipment and much cheaper.
      This campaign now has government contracts in 8 countries.
    3. Tagan
      Tagan 22 December 2015 11: 29 New
      -2
      Alexey, I think you're right. Here only the lazy did not kick the designers of the Russian defense industry. Here everyone knows how to develop and manufacture such devices. I am more than sure that 99,9% of commentators at best knew the iron device. Nevertheless, some with manic confidence vparut about the healing properties of the compound, others say something about the board and the element base (and even indicate the mediocrity of the layout and tracing;)), others about the complete vulnerability of the device from external influences, fourth in general for a moment they realized that this was complete nonsense, when they had not even managed to open this device. Well, the fifths, reading all this, were sad and disappointed for the rest of my life.))) Guys, well, don’t disgrace even at least with your knowledge. It’s just one thing when people are trying to understand something and put forward some versions, but it’s quite another when some “specialists” here are pulling in all sorts of nonsense, presenting themselves with universally recognized experts. The fact that someone once soldered something on his knees does not mean that he knew everything. Hopeless gugerage also sometimes leads to destructive consequences in terms of cognition, because it is not a fact that on the Internet, again, you will not run into an “expert”. Technologies have been polished for decades with the involvement of a large number of specialists from various fields. When developing devices of this class, there are dozens of introductory ones (if not hundreds). Among other things, many parameters are interconnected. Well, as an example: laying a certain level of redundancy for the reliability of the circuit, such characteristics as power consumption, dimensions, weight, noise immunity, thermal parameters, etc. change. Everything here stretches one from another. This is all to the fact that there is no need to tell here that girls from the street are engaged in development. And so it’s just ridiculous to watch how the diplomats from the “humanities” cut the truth of the womb.
      Well, and as usual, on this wave of discussion, it spills over into everything and everything domestic, but at the same time with a patriotic look and heartache.)))
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. ancient
      ancient 22 December 2015 16: 05 New
      +1
      Quote: Алексей_К
      Now, looking at the breakdowns in the drawer on the screen of the TV-box, YOU have all become the smartest designers in the field of creating heavy-duty electronic equipment. Directly bury the talents in the ground. Run and teach designers how and what to do!


      That's right .. and suddenly we are surprised .. there was a "normal" Tester-U3, series 2 and 3, and here we see .... Tester-U3, series 3AM.



      No need to tell that to "get" out of just 3 "whole 3AM" .. it "costs money" wassat
  39. eleronn
    eleronn 22 December 2015 01: 01 New
    +2
    This is all great, but what information do they want to get from these drives? What's new they want to see ?! He (the "black box") will not give the location of the dead side. Why all this hysteria? And, it should be noted, this is not the only system that reads flight parameters. How are things with MLP?
    1. Just BB
      Just BB 22 December 2015 04: 31 New
      +1
      MLP is not a protected design at all - such a tape recorder with magnetic tape in a pan! Especially in the bow.
  40. Seneca
    Seneca 22 December 2015 01: 04 New
    0
    Once again, the MO was already taxed. Before that, with Kurdish fuel trucks .. now with a box. A few days there was information .. here it is .. now we will show you and prove that everything was like that. And actually .. strong I suspect no one was going to provide data from the recorder. There is probably enough inconvenient truth. It is also possible to provide a well-rounded and comfortable testimony. What is probably now very busy.
    1. Tagan
      Tagan 22 December 2015 12: 26 New
      -2
      Quote: Seneca
      Once again, the MO was already taxed. Before that, with Kurdish fuel trucks .. now with a box. A few days there was information .. here it is .. now we will show you and prove that everything was like that. And actually .. strong I suspect no one was going to provide data from the recorder. There is probably enough inconvenient truth. It is also possible to provide a well-rounded and comfortable testimony. What is probably now very busy.

      Kurdish fuel trucks with Turkish numbers)))
      if they were not going to provide data, then the recorder would hardly have been found. why so many extra gestures were needed then? turn on logic already
  41. Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 22 December 2015 01: 16 New
    +2
    Quote: Stranger
    The magnetic carrier is also not reliable enough. The problem with this particular "box" is that the flash memory chips are installed in the household. Although they could just as well have bought in special buildings from the same Chinese where they bought these. But due to the significant difference in cost (several orders of magnitude more expensive). Saved, damn it. In addition, motherboards created at the level of technologies of the 80s and assembled in a "handicraft" way were placed inside an almost indestructible case without any protection. So on impact, the force pulse was transmitted without interference and the chips simply exploded.

    This is who told you such nonsense ????
  42. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 22 December 2015 01: 38 New
    +1
    Purely in the design of the box. Chassis-free mounting on ceramic media - (the micromodule is called), would reduce the board area by a factor of ten, as well as its mass and inertial forces, which would break it upon impact. But! Such development pays off only with mass circulations - tens of thousands of products.
    And where to get them, such circulations? In general, they will now raise the question, and replace the Black Boxes on all aircraft with new developments ... But on these Sushki God knew what year ...
    Information from the crystals can be removed using the MZU (multi-probe installation), but for this it will be necessary to open the case of microcircuits. And write the appropriate software. It takes time. If at least one crystal is the target - they will read it.
  43. Leprekon
    Leprekon 22 December 2015 01: 39 New
    0
    Once, they showed how the record was stored on a special tape recorder with wire. They had one problem, jumping off coils and getting confused. It happens that the new or the fashion is not much more practical than the old. mechanical damage to the flash is probably much easier.
    1. Pathfinder_II
      Pathfinder_II 22 December 2015 02: 28 New
      +1
      depends on the VLSI manufacturing technology, the substrate, for example, may not be silicon, but sapphire, the case is not plastic, but metal-ceramic, etc., the material of the legs could absorb shock or solder fall off under certain loads, preserving the case and compound from damage distributing shock load and other methods
    2. Just BB
      Just BB 22 December 2015 04: 33 New
      +1
      it's a voice recorder
  44. Pathfinder_II
    Pathfinder_II 22 December 2015 02: 17 New
    +2
    watched this video, while opening the box was almost calm ... belay what kind of freelancers were developing the board ?! Rugged non-deformable case, sturdy racks connecting the boards, a large area of ​​the boards themselves and the microcircuits installed on them, plastic cases ... was the task that the boards should break when struck? PS: the circuit is digital, interference when switching the state 1/0 on "ground", in Horowitz it is written in large black letters in white about capacitors, the price of a penny, where? The flash memory interface is only SPI (..., CSn, _WR), why so many wires? where are the connectors? it could be filled with some gel to damp the blow.
    I'm shocked! sad
  45. Ugrumiy
    Ugrumiy 22 December 2015 03: 03 New
    0
    The question is, there are two "black boxes" on civilian planes, why is there only one on the military, and even made in an ugly way "on the knee"?
    1. Just BB
      Just BB 22 December 2015 04: 47 New
      0
      Who told you that one?
      Two - one speech for recording radio, the second parametric - for flight parameters and the operation of aircraft systems.
      The offal that was shown on TV was never designed as an emergency. They were then "adapted".
      There was a need, and such an opportunity appeared, to speed up the time for reading information after the next flight, and it was planned to install a second, operational, flash drive, but for some reason, as usual, we still have one and not the best.
      PS Even if they remove the information, it is not even technically convincing for any evidence.
      Only information from radar air defense systems or air traffic control
  46. lopvlad
    lopvlad 22 December 2015 04: 18 New
    0
    At each accident, this box is opened and checked, and naturally its "bad" strength characteristics should have been revealed long ago.

    who open and see the strength strength characteristics of this black box? . The specialists of the manufacturer are engaged in an autopsy and decoding as it was now. Do you think they will shit themselves on their neck?
    I’m more than sure that the percentage of destruction of the number of microcircuits in such a black box has always been, but it was not so total and such a black box has not been disassembled before.
    What did we see in the video?. We saw in the video that the case of the internal metal capsule where the electronics are located did not undergo any mechanical damage from the outside (there are not even small dents), but the electronics themselves are inside shit.

    Everything is created with the probability of not destruction under certain conditions. So this box fell into conditions that it was not designed for - that's all.

    simply, the box electronics turned out to be unsuitable not only for military but also for civilian aircraft, as civilian aircraft also fall from a height of 10 kilometers (for example, a Malaysian Boeing in Ukraine or our recent one in Egypt) and the info is kept there readable.
    The mention of the bombing on the box on the ground "smiled" because their effect on the electronics of the black box can be said if, as a result, the metal capsule in which the electronics is located is destroyed. everything is gone "will fail.

    Quote: Алексей_К
    Run and teach designers how and what to do!


    I see you designers as sinless people who thought everything through. Let’s recall how often Soviet TVs broke and how the breakdowns in them were the same for decades. What was to blame for these breakdowns were not manufacturers of electronic components, but designers who tried to use this component in the conditions for which it is not designed.

    You don’t have to make idiots out of people. After watching the video with opening the box, you don’t need to be seven spans in your forehead to understand that the manufacturers of this black box have become obnoxious and with them the power in Russia, which decided to broadcast the opening of the black box to the whole world.
    The black box should ensure maximum safety of information when falling from all altitudes for which the flying object is designed and only the destruction of the internal metal capsule in which the electronics are located can serve as an excuse.
    If the designers could not provide this, this means that you need to look for new designers.
    1. Just BB
      Just BB 22 December 2015 05: 25 New
      +1
      What did we see on the video?. We saw on the video that the case of the internal metal capsule where the electronics are located did not undergo any mechanical damage from the outside

      And the fact that there is no half-case of the registrar does not bother you?

      If you were attentive when watching the video clip, you noticed HOW famously the "special" cutters walked along the wires?
      For me (as something knowing and able in this matter, 30 years however), there was first a shock, and then unrestrained fun
    2. Salad
      Salad 22 December 2015 05: 52 New
      0
      Quote: lopvlad
      After watching the video with the opening of the box, you do not need to be seven spans in the forehead to understand that the manufacturers of this black box have become obnoxious and with them the power in Russia, which decided to broadcast the opening of the black box to the whole world.

      manufacturers may, and, as you put it, get offended, but the fact that the autopsy was open, in my opinion, is right.
  47. tolmachiev51
    tolmachiev51 22 December 2015 04: 19 New
    0
    One -modern aircraft is surprising. But the "black box" scheme is assembled at the level of amateur radio, and even then of the 70-80s model !!!! Hinged fiberglass boards - they just burst from a dynamic impact and recovery is zero. It was worth fanning such a stir / now for the sake of the scoundrels / if they shone through and probably knew what the box was.
    1. Just BB
      Just BB 22 December 2015 05: 18 New
      +1
      I already said above:
      the general wanted to be a TV star!
      And what a shame to nobody and it didn’t occur to me to keep from this venture - information that could somehow help in the investigation the system does not register!!!
      Everything there is very difficult to tie to the location of the aircraft and this information is easily disputed - that's why many countries have not come to this show
      1. shura7782
        shura7782 22 December 2015 10: 15 New
        0
        I think that this is not his idea. Rather, they gave him this indication. In general, all this fuss is needed for something else.
  48. Salad
    Salad 22 December 2015 05: 41 New
    +1
    Quote: tolmachiev51
    It was worth fanning such a stir / now to please the villains

    but this is how you look. Imagine, they found a black box, reported to the commander-in-chief and ran to open / decrypt themselves, and then you know what. And to the question of the "villains" - "Well, what about the box?" the answer - "Yes, they (the microcircuits) are all kotsanny there" would not sound convincing. The next day, they would have received headlines that the Russians had hidden the data of the recorder, thus the Turks were right. Although Russia will still receive such headlines, but think about how they will look when the "box" was opened in front of observers, documented by video and photography?
    1. Just BB
      Just BB 22 December 2015 06: 44 New
      +1
      Imagine, discovered a black box, reported to the commander in chief

      I can not imagine as discovered (among the "flowers" without a trace of soot - the explosion was at the place of the fall), but I can imagine how they reported.
      It's a shame. Stupid unprofessionalism - the "black box" was needed only to find out whether the plane was shot down or fell because of a refusal. There is objective information above the roof.
      You cannot determine the location by box. Only OK radar.
      And so - it's like using a video about a plane crash: "This is the mountain" on "or" behind "which the plane fell and it is on the map in this place. And here is the trajectory of the alleged fall based on the video footage."
  49. kabnb
    kabnb 22 December 2015 07: 28 New
    +1
    dream: if only those who understand this business commented. what would save time and place
  50. SOF
    SOF 22 December 2015 07: 39 New
    +1
    !!!!!!!
    ____________
    David 2633 - registration date December 2015
    Heritologist - registration date December 2015
    -Traveller-- registration date December 2015
    ____________

    ... colleagues, you are in a polemic with these jerks tumble in, and they climbed here just for this.
    Do you feel sorry for your time? What about nerves?
    Just scroll ghouls and read on. Well, or (to relieve stress) send them to the farm to the butterflies, veiled naturally.
    ... BUT, do not feed them with your emotions.
    Z.S. and where only moderation looks?