Military Review

Folklore as a litmus test of historical memory

97
Sporadicly flashing disputes and debates in the margins of "VO" on the subject "Who are we, Russian people?" prompted me to write this article. But the conversation will focus on a more sensitive topic raised by the "jumpers" on the Maidan: are there any noticeable differences between the true heirs of Kievan Rus, with which they consider themselves a Bandero-zombie, and the so-called? mestizo those who consider themselves Russian by nationality and live in the territory of the Russian Federation? The question, at first glance, is rhetorical and provocative, since none of those who consider themselves to be the heir of the Slavs of Rus Dnieper (according to the classification of Klyuchevsky V. O.) do not even doubt the incorrectness of such a comparison.


Only the “trick” is not even that there is a huge distance between today's Ukraine and Little Russia, both in time and in spirit. And the fact that the people who lived in the Ukraine, had a "truncated memory." And about this truncated memory and will be discussed.

What is the memory of the people? Ethnic memory? What is meant by these definitions?

If we start from classical definitions, then a nation is a nation that has an ethnic identity. At the same time, the people represent "an ethnic formation characterized by a territorial, linguistic, cultural, traditional and genealogical community".

Memory is not the abstract knowledge of any event. Memory is life experience, knowledge of events experienced and felt, reflected emotionally. Historical memory is a collective concept. It lies in maintaining public as well as understanding of historical experience. The collective memory of generations can be among family members, the population of the city, and among the whole nation, country and all of humanity.

The above definitions can be criticized, but the essence is, in principle, clear.

So, we can’t do without history. In our case, we will resort to folklore as a litmus test of the collective memory of generations. After all, it’s just folk songs, like fairy tales, legends, epics, myths and legends that are transmitted orally from generation to generation, and are part of the historical memory of the people.

The appearance of writing and typography contributed to the consolidation of folklore in the pages of books. But when did the tales of Baba Yaga, the Serpent of Gorynych, come to light? Since when has the folk memory kept the legends of Svyatoslav, the tales of Dobryna Nikitich, Alesha Popovich and Ilya Muromets? Where did the characters of the Gamayun bird songs come from? It makes no sense to bring all the characters of the myths and legends of ancient Russia. How it makes no sense to challenge the thesis of linking the time of creating fairy tales of myths, epics and legends to the pagan period of the Russian people.

And here is the question: "How to determine what nation, Russian or Ukrainian, the above-mentioned works of folklore are related to?"

I dare say that the conversation was about Russian folklore.

But why not Ukrainian? On the Independence already answered this question. And therefore we will try to look for any bindings to the pagan period in Ukrainian folklore. The list of heroes will be noticeably smaller and shorter. Names such as Dovbush, Paly and Karmalyuk can hardly be called popular. About Kirilo Kozhemyaku, it seems, someone heard and read. As about Ivan the Woodcutter. But even a cursory reading of Ukrainian legends (?) And epics gives a certain impression that they were created not earlier than the 16th century. That is, at the time of the Zaporozhian Sech.

That, in principle, is not surprising.

The capture of Kiev by Batu's army in November-December of 1240 led to the devastation of the southern Russian lands, since a year earlier, in the spring of 1239, Batyi defeated southern Russia (South Pereyaslavl), in the fall - Chernigov principality The surviving settled population either went to the forest north-east, between the northern Volga and Oka rivers, or to the north-west and west, to territories controlled by Poland and Hungary.

As a result, from the middle of the XIII century, the territory of the former southern Russian principalities (Kiev, Chernigov and Pereyaslavl) was a wild steppe in the direct and figurative sense.

The return and settlement of abandoned land began simultaneously with the weakening of the Golden Horde. Yes, and this land to this went to the Commonwealth. And the reason for the migration was the Krevo Union, which led to the fact that the Orthodox population had to experience serious pressure from the Polish Catholic majority. Given the priority of the Catholic faith, the process of polonization of society and its conversion to Catholicism was inevitable.

Folklore as a litmus test of historical memory[/ Center]

And now - the main thing.

What remains of those descendants of the inhabitants of Kiev (Dneprovskaya) Rus in memory, historical memory of that their ancestral homeland, abandoned by the ancestors two centuries earlier? What did they remember, what did they sing in their songs, what did grandmothers tell grandchildren and granddaughters in mud huts with clay floors on cold winter evenings? Answer - see above. The people who returned to their ancestral lands, no longer remembered their origins, their kinship with the people of Moscow, Russia. These were the Slavs, the Rusins, the clearing. You can call whatever you like. But it was a different people, the most militant representatives of which were ready to fight side by side with the Crimean Tatars against the Poles, or against the Poles against the Muscovites, or blackmailing Moscow with the transition to the power of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, to demand war with Poland "in defense of the Orthodox".

Has something changed in the mentality of the descendants of the proud "Zaporizhzhya Cossacks"? It seems to me that nothing. There is still a rejection of historical ties with kindred people. Political blackmail is still interspersed with economic. There is still a desire to fight with anyone for anyone - if only Pensenzy dripped into a personal account in a foreign bank. The governors still lead their people to "prosperity."

I feel sorry for such a people. Lobotomy, conducted by Polish priests and magnates, turned out to be a viral disease for a whole nation that has been descended from the Paleolithic era.
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  1. Ami du peuple
    Ami du peuple 22 December 2015 08: 45 New
    20
    Has something changed in the mentality of the descendants of the proud "Zaporozhye Cossacks"? As before, the rejection of historical ties with kindred people ...

    Exactly! It's time to forget this mantra about the "brotherly people". And he treats them accordingly - as unfriendly neighbors. If the "European" historical choice of Ukrainians is to be Polish slaves, then why should they interfere with this? You can't be cute ...
    1. 79807420129
      79807420129 22 December 2015 09: 03 New
      16
      A good article makes you think, but when you look at these horses you understand that we were never brothers, the Galitsians whom the Poles called cattle (cattle) now dominate in Ukraine, the Little Russians love their position, I’m scribbling whether they were new Russians either in the LDNR militia or left for Russia either occupies the same hut-side, but the people who do not remember their roots are doomed to extinction, whether the horses will ever remember this, unlikely.
      1. Pirogov
        Pirogov 22 December 2015 14: 51 New
        +3
        A good article makes you think, but when you look at these horses you understand that we were never brothers, the Galitsians whom the Poles called cattle (cattle) now dominate in Ukraine, the Little Russians love their position, I’m scribbling whether they were new Russians either in the LDNR militia or left for Russia is either occupied on the same side of the hut, well, and a people who do not remember their roots are doomed to extinction, if the horses will ever remember this, it is unlikely. ,,,,,,,,,,,, so looking at it SKAKUNOV !!!! ,,, And how many horses, you say in the Dnieper, the Lnr went to Russia, and who did not have such an opportunity AND FUNDS, AND THEIR BABIES CHILDREN PARENTS what to do? And who basically sat in the zone so as not to shoot those who are not the ones you say about them, and them? It’s easy to talk lying on a sofa under a nuclear umbrella!
    2. Alexei
      Alexei 22 December 2015 09: 13 New
      +4
      Quote: Ami du peuple
      If the "European" historical choice of Ukrainians is to be Polish slaves, then why should they interfere with this? You can't be cute ...

      They are very stubborn and that is why when Europe has them all, they will come back through 40-60 in years. Not those who are now jumping and beating their foreheads in history will come, their grandchildren will come, who will be disgusted by third-rate pottage.
      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 22 December 2015 09: 14 New
        +7
        Quote: Alexej
        in 40-60 years they will come back.

        will not come, these are 3 generations, the mentality will be completely reformatted
        once with the Poles we were almost the same
        1. Alexei
          Alexei 22 December 2015 09: 22 New
          +1
          Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
          , the mentality will be completely reformatted

          And I did not say that they will come the same as they were in the days of the USSR. When they come and we will no longer be what we are now, and together with them we will become even more "different". wink
          1. Vasilenko Vladimir
            Vasilenko Vladimir 22 December 2015 09: 32 New
            +2
            Quote: Alexej
            And I did not say that they would come the same as they were during the Soviet era.

            they won’t come at all, just like the Poles they will begin to hate us at the genetic level
            1. Alexei
              Alexei 22 December 2015 10: 03 New
              +4
              Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
              will hate us at the genetic level

              This is not a genetic level, but imposed on the subconscious level. Let them hate, the main thing for us is to go towards our goal, and when we go far ahead, only then they will reach out to us and remember that we are brothers. After all, people always strive for something. Now they are striving for the "Zone of Comfort and Consumption", but in it a person degrades in 100 years, and this is where our descendants will come out, if we ourselves do not drown in this zone.
              1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                Vasilenko Vladimir 22 December 2015 10: 13 New
                +2
                Quote: Alexej
                This is not a genetic level, but imposed on the subconscious level. Let them hate

                as a tree stump, do not decorate it with a Christmas tree, why do we need another "bloodline" to fight for them, let them better become enemies of the West
    3. Shveps
      Shveps 22 December 2015 09: 16 New
      +8
      Metropolitan John (Snychev): "To kill Russia, one must start with the desecration of the soul ...
      The concept of "people" in relation to a national community is a higher concept, not material, but spiritual. Initially, the unity of blood, the common origin of the Slavic tribes, for all their significance, could not give this assembly the necessary vitality and strength. Only when the soul of the people - the Church - gathered the Russian people around itself, when Russia overcame the lack of state unity, which gave rise to ulcers and cracks of strife in the people's body, when, throwing off the other-faith Tatar-Mongol yoke, Russia united under the scepter of the Russian Orthodox Sovereign - then the Russian people rose on the historical stage in all their mighty growth. The people are conciliar, sovereign, open to all.
      Today, people are trying to impose a worldview in which there is no place for shrines. The human heart - the throne of God - is trying to take the ugly graceless idols of material prosperity: Success, Wealth, Comfort, Glory. That is why rampant destructive passions rage in society - anger and lust, power lust and vanity, lies and hypocrisy. But know everything: naked material interest, no matter how well-intentioned clothes he wears, cannot become the basis of public life. Business breeds companions, Faith - gives birth to devotees of truth and good.
      Reprimand us, faint-hearted and unbelieving, who have vanquished in petty worldly cares and almost lost their faith, almost lost touch with the great and glorious past of their own people. I admit that the poison of religious indifference, indifference to the shrines of faith (which replaced the outright deity of the past) temporarily stunned a significant part of society, poisoned the Russian heart, but - I do not believe that there will be a Russian person (indifferent, believer or not) who will be left indifferent words about the indissoluble interconnection of the earthly greatness of Russia with its spiritual power and health, with the strength and vitality of the Faith. And if there is one - he is not Russian: the Christ-sellers are always international.
    4. Alexey-74
      Alexey-74 22 December 2015 09: 30 New
      +1
      I agree with the author, and this is happening now
    5. sisa29
      sisa29 22 December 2015 09: 32 New
      +2
      And what is "Brotherly people"? We got this term from the ideology of the USSR. Then it was relevant and united not so many ethnically close peoples as ideologically close countries. For example, in 1978, we would not even be surprised at the phrase "brothers Poles" or economic aid to "brotherly Cuba."
      But Alas, these are things of bygone days. The realities of life do not show fraternal peoples, basically all countries live by the concept of ordinary gain. Perhaps with the exception of us.
      1. I am Russian
        I am Russian 22 December 2015 18: 18 New
        +2
        Quote: sisa29
        And what is "Brotherly people"? We got this term from the ideology of the USSR. Then it was relevant and united not so many ethnically close peoples as ideologically close countries. For example, in 1978, we would not even be surprised at the phrase "brothers Poles" or economic aid to "brotherly Cuba."
        But Alas, these are things of bygone days. The realities of life do not show fraternal peoples, basically all countries live by the concept of ordinary gain. Perhaps with the exception of us.

        Actually, when the USSR appeared Ukrainians, Belarusians, Kazakhs, Dagestanis, Azerbaijanis ....
        Prior to this, the first two were Russians, the third - a small nation called the Kirghiz, the latter - Tats (depending on religion).
        P.S. Do not flatter yourself.
    6. Pereira
      Pereira 22 December 2015 09: 51 New
      +1
      Given that the basis of the Zaporizhzhya Cossacks was Cherkasy, inattention to their Slavic roots is understandable.
      Those who did not belong to the Cossacks were Polish slaves. And here, too, everything is clear.
      In short, the current non-Slaves remained in their hearts slaves, dreaming of becoming panas and making their own slaves, about which they openly sing in the hymn.
      Why do they all need a memory of the glorious deeds of free and self-sufficient Russian ancestors?
    7. The comment was deleted.
    8. Vend
      Vend 22 December 2015 09: 57 New
      +1
      Quote: Ami du peuple
      Has something changed in the mentality of the descendants of the proud "Zaporozhye Cossacks"? As before, the rejection of historical ties with kindred people ...

      Exactly! It's time to forget this mantra about the "brotherly people". And he treats them accordingly - as unfriendly neighbors. If the "European" historical choice of Ukrainians is to be Polish slaves, then why should they interfere with this? You can't be cute ...

      I remember once, they demanded to abandon the Chechen people. You need to look further. It is not a matter of fraternal people, but of human development. But the fact that Ukrainians need to go all the way and realize who they are is needed.
    9. Pirogov
      Pirogov 22 December 2015 14: 38 New
      +1
      You don’t row all under one comb!
    10. BIGLESHIY
      BIGLESHIY 22 December 2015 17: 16 New
      +1
      Quote: Ami du peuple

      Exactly! It's time to forget this mantra about the "brotherly people". And he treats them accordingly - as unfriendly neighbors. If the "European" historical choice of Ukrainians is to be Polish slaves, then why should they interfere with this? You can't be cute ...

      Here are just these Polish slaves live in Russian land. What to do with this?
    11. The comment was deleted.
    12. I am Russian
      I am Russian 22 December 2015 18: 10 New
      +1
      Quote: Ami du peuple
      Has something changed in the mentality of the descendants of the proud "Zaporozhye Cossacks"? As before, the rejection of historical ties with kindred people ...

      Exactly! It's time to forget this mantra about the "brotherly people". And he treats them accordingly - as unfriendly neighbors. If the "European" historical choice of Ukrainians is to be Polish slaves, then why should they interfere with this? You can't be cute ...


      Firstly, the article is based on a story written by THREE GERMANS by historians Miller, Bayer and Schletser. They did not even know the Russian language. Which during the dynasty of emperors Sharyin-Zakharyin-Romanov (Germans) wrote the New Chronology of Russia ...
      Secondly, until the 17th century, the Great TarTaria power existed. It was destroyed by Catherine 2.
      Third, the project "Ukraine" of the Austro-Hungarian special services.
      Fourth, for 1 thousand years we have retreated from the Atlantic Ocean to the present borders of states.
      And now you propose to roll back. And after 20 years, give up the Don region and the Kuban?

      Map of Great TarTaria for 1697. From the English Encyclopedia
  2. Andrey Yuryevich
    Andrey Yuryevich 22 December 2015 08: 50 New
    +8
    there used to be separate individuals, but now the whole people of kinship do not remember, renouncing relatives, relatives and friends ... is it a pity for such a people? I do not know...
    1. epsilon571
      epsilon571 22 December 2015 12: 04 New
      0
      And also such people are called outcasts, and this is a more correct definition.
  3. Vasilenko Vladimir
    Vasilenko Vladimir 22 December 2015 08: 53 New
    +4
    those. those who consider themselves Russian by nationality
    Russian is not a nationality, this is a nation
    1. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 22 December 2015 08: 59 New
      +9
      Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
      Russian is not a nationality, this is a nation

      someone said that this is: a state of mind, I agree, perhaps.
      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 22 December 2015 09: 03 New
        +3
        Quote: Andrey Yurievich
        this is a state of mind

        and this is essentially the same thing, nationality is ethnic "impoverishment" nation - spiritual and cultural
        a simple example Alexander Khristoforovich Benkendorf is a Russian general, but ethnically it’s hardly even attributable to the Slavs
        1. Andrey Yuryevich
          Andrey Yuryevich 22 December 2015 09: 06 New
          23
          to the one who says that this Buryat is not Russian, I will be the first to spit in hara .... (rodents, remember?)
    2. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 22 December 2015 09: 22 New
      +2
      Someone thinks that Russian nationality ?!
      then Pushkin is not a Russian poet
    3. Alexey Lobanov
      Alexey Lobanov 22 December 2015 11: 54 New
      +3
      Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
      those. those who consider themselves Russian by nationality
      Russian is not a nationality, this is a nation

      I would say more, Russians are a civilization, the only one from the ancients, preserved to this day. In contrast to global civilization. Although, with China, too, not everything is simple ... laughing
  4. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 22 December 2015 08: 54 New
    +4
    There is still a rejection of historical ties with kindred people. There is still political blackmail, interspersed with economic. There is still a desire to fight with anyone and for anyone - if only the penny would be dropped into a personal account in a foreign bank. As before, the governors lead their people to "prosperity".

    As they say - comments are redundant. When the authorities have nothing to do with the soul, they have to invent a historical family tree in their own way.
  5. avva2012
    avva2012 22 December 2015 09: 13 New
    +2
    And where does the article on folklore say? The title of the article implied, in my opinion, a comparison of Ukrainian traditions and Russian epics, for example.
    About the Little Russians, N.V. wrote beautifully Gogol. Why repeat it. Although not a historian, he essentially described everything correctly. Little Russia: a hodgepodge of nationalities and ethnic groups, which, one thing in common: the person who came, had to cross himself, everything, after that, he is a Cossack.
    1. stalkerwalker
      22 December 2015 11: 50 New
      +3
      Quote: avva2012
      And where does the article on folklore say?

      There was a brief reference to the key MAJOR CHARACTERS of Russian and Little Russian-Ukrainian folklore.
      I did not consider it necessary to give a more detailed comparison, because it took up a lot of space.
  6. Jurkovs
    Jurkovs 22 December 2015 09: 16 New
    +2
    I looked at Wikipedia, refreshed my knowledge. At the place where ethnographers recorded specific epics, the Russian North, Vologda, Veliky Novgorod are the leaders. All epics are divided into cycles and timing. Ethnographers consider the Novgorod cycle (Sadko and others) to be the most ancient epics. Considering that the kobzars did not sing absolutely epics, it means they were immediately representatives of another musical tradition.
  7. Riv
    Riv 22 December 2015 09: 19 New
    +6
    The author has some childish concepts. He easily and naturally confuses the nation and the people, which is the same as confusing sour and green. Nation is a cultural and political concept. The people are cultural and ethnic. That is, they are fundamentally different things. For example, the Jews founded their state in the 20th century, taking shape as a nation. But they were people before. Moreover, "there is a quarter of our former people." Israel is full of people with Russian roots.

    With reference to modern Ukraine - the situation is paradoxical. There are no people as such. There is Donbass, there is Western Ukraine with its ethnic characteristics. There is Odessa (what kind of Ukrainians are there?) And there is Kiev, in which the main nationality is thieves. Accordingly, the attempt to create a nation failed. Therefore, we have the collapse of the Ukrainian state.

    And do not drag the Horde here. Batu and Genghis Khan were definitely not Ukrainians.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 22 December 2015 09: 58 New
      +1
      And do not drag the Horde here. Batu and Genghis Khan were definitely not Ukrainians.
      Definitely not. Some "historians" consider them Russian: Alexander Nevsky and Vsevolod the Big Nest. So, as it turns out, we have always spread rot on the Ukrainian people. Genocide, damn it, pancake. wassat
      1. Riv
        Riv 22 December 2015 12: 11 New
        +1
        Well, the Turks. And the Turks are the ancestors (or rather, one of the ancestors) of the Scythians and Slavs. So relatives, anyway.
        We know these "historians". Their surname: Bushkov. A dreamer, but his "Genghis Khan" is still recommended for reading.
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 22 December 2015 12: 19 New
          +6
          Quote: Riv
          And the Turks are the ancestors (or rather, one of the ancestors) of the Scythians and Slavs.

          don’t tell anyone else, they’ll laugh
    2. stalkerwalker
      22 December 2015 11: 52 New
      +3
      Quote: Riv
      The author has some kind of children's concepts. He easily and naturally confuses the nation and the people, and this is the same as confusing the sour and the green

      The above definitions can be criticized, but the essence is, in principle, clear.

      The question of the article is not about classical or free definitions of a nation and people.
      Quote: Riv
      And do not drag the Horde here. Batu and Genghis Khan were definitely not Ukrainians.

      What a strange reading of the article you have. According to the principle "... everything is not so guys, everything is not so ..."
      laughing
      1. Banshee
        Banshee 22 December 2015 11: 55 New
        +4
        Quote: Riv
        Batu and Genghis-Khan are not exactly Ukrainians.


        And thank God. It would be even worse.
      2. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 23 December 2015 07: 51 New
        +1
        Quote: stalkerwalker
        The question of the article is not about classical or free definitions of a nation and people.

        it is from the definition of who the Russians are and you need to build reasoning
        1. stalkerwalker
          23 December 2015 09: 46 New
          +3
          Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
          it is from the definition of who the Russians are and you need to build reasoning

          Russian is a person who has a Russian mentality, thinks and thinks in Russian. The Russian mentality has been evolving for hundreds of years from the surrounding reality - this is the worldview, customs, culture, traditions, surrounding nature, spiritual component, and so on. All this is inherited - genetic memory. It is on a subconscious level.
          1. Vasilenko Vladimir
            Vasilenko Vladimir 23 December 2015 09: 51 New
            +1
            that is, as if not a nationality
  8. mpzss
    mpzss 22 December 2015 09: 22 New
    0
    Well, what can I say about the fact that the immigrants could not talk about what happened before, I think LOD, because everyone has GRANDMOTS who remember VERY much and pass it all on to their children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren, so here the author, to put it mildly, was cunning.
    But regarding "Ivan, not remembering kinship", let me remind you that ONLY we, on the territory of the former USSR, have a column "PATRENCE" in the passport, so we all remember!
    1. stalkerwalker
      22 December 2015 11: 56 New
      +3
      Quote: mpzss
      Well, what can I say about the fact that the immigrants could not talk about what happened before, I think LOD, because everyone has GRANDMOTS who remember VERY much and pass it all on to their children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren, so here the author, to put it mildly, was cunning.

      Cunning - to challenge the meaning of an article without evidence on hand.
  9. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 22 December 2015 09: 24 New
    +1
    But once he did not take history seriously. Although I passed it perfectly. Easy as it was. Now I try to convey to the children, to the "peak" of EG. And there will be grandchildren - and I will try to convey to them. For the people should not live without historical memory.
  10. Al_oriso
    Al_oriso 22 December 2015 09: 25 New
    0
    If we talk about the purity of mentality, then it is almost impossible to find a community of people who constantly live in their original homeland and preserve the memory of generations. But, in principle, there is a rational grain in this.
  11. Mitrich76
    Mitrich76 22 December 2015 09: 27 New
    +4
    By the way, the very word "Russian" does not mean nationality, but a conscious belonging to Russia, precisely as to their own land, homeland. And at the same time, nationality is no longer important if a person considers himself part of the Russian world.
    And if someone deliberately renounces Russianness - their choice and their right. But after such demarches, the one who became “not a brother” should be enrolled in “those who do not remember kinship”. And treat accordingly, do not wait for awareness and enlightenment. Judas is enough for us.
  12. moskowit
    moskowit 22 December 2015 09: 28 New
    +3
    The author has raised an interesting topic. And by and large, he's right. To our great regret, due to the remoteness of the time and uselessness, somewhere in the numerous journeys, the textbook of Ukrainian literature for the 5th grade of 1964 disappeared. In those years, we students of the Russian school underwent active Ukrainization in it. Starting from the elementary grades, the study of Ukrainian language and literature was introduced. For senior classes, only literature. True, I don't remember much of the program, but there were no legends or epics there. Literature began almost with Kobzar (Taras Shevchenko), Ivan Franko and Pavlo Tychina ...
  13. victorrat
    victorrat 22 December 2015 09: 28 New
    +3
    Why put a minus, because again, popular about scientific nonsense, flavored with quite obvious conclusions.
    There has never been any Kievan Rus. This term was coined by the historian Solovyov.
    Already, thank God, the "Mongol-Tatar yoke" is being removed from the textbooks, because the rewritten Slavic history must be restored. Even according to Rurik, we will not finish off the nasty Norman historians with their silly story about the Vikings. How many more surprises will the first known capital of Russia, Old Ladoga, bring?
    And there are much more old legends, only they need to be raised. Who has read at least "The Tale of Bygone Years" Dee and Afanasy Nikitin's essay. But how many of them have survived. And it hinders that modern nonsense, for which they received candidates and doctors, do not want to lose their titles.
    1. stalkerwalker
      22 December 2015 11: 58 New
      +2
      Quote: victorrat
      There has never been any Kievan Rus. This term was coined by the historian Solovyov.

      I read opus Nosovsky with Fomenko.
      Klyuchevsky divides the History of Russia into four main periods, the first of which is called Dnieper Russia.
  14. V.ic
    V.ic 22 December 2015 09: 29 New
    +2
    The skakla got their independence in 1918 from German pens, paying for it with food deliveries to the Reich. Tradition, so to speak. Then from the sweaty hands of the always drunk E.B.N. But what "proud" they were, they say they fed Russia.
  15. Per se.
    Per se. 22 December 2015 09: 33 New
    +5
    Has something changed in the mentality of the descendants of the proud "Zaporozhye Cossacks"? It seems to me that nothing.
    Why speak for everyone, measure everyone by one yardstick, Ukraine is far from homogeneous. Let's give up everything now, let's not fight for, indeed, our own. Do not separate, in due time, from the composition of Russia "Ukraine", there would be Little Russia, like Belarus. Finally, when the republic was separated, if you did not call Little Russia separatist "Ukraine", to the delight of the same Grushevsky and the company, conduct the necessary propaganda, everything would be fine. No, the problem was aggravated by the annexation of Galicia, which would have been better returned to the Pshek after the war, and the whole of East Prussia was left behind. Khrushchev donated Crimea, but, most importantly, he resettled the Banderaites for "re-education" in the eastern regions, spreading the infection. The West has been conducting subversive activities against Russia for a long time, but did the Russians in Crimea forget about Russia, did the Donbass forget? If you screwed up everything during the coup d'etat in Kiev, you shouldn't blame everything on the ungrateful “Zaporozhye Cossacks”, you can't renounce the multitude of Russians that are now in Dill, you can't give up the lands of Kyivan Rus. "Let them just try", so, so, they tried, and we reap the fruits of our dependence, wasted time and opportunities. It will not work to sit out, fail to buy off, and if you finally give up the initiative, the West from Ukraine will finally blind the anti-Russia, "ukroreich", against us, as in its time from Hitler's Germany. The map is not perfect, but it makes you think.
  16. Horn
    Horn 22 December 2015 09: 36 New
    +1
    Epics about the so-called. "Kievan Rus" recorded in the Arkhangelsk, Vologda, Novgorod and Yaroslavl regions. On the territory of today's Ukraine, there are no epics about those times. It should also be taken into account that legends, as a rule, are created 2-3 generations after the event.
    It follows from this that the heirs of the so-called. Kievan Rus lives now on the territory of the Russian North and the upper reaches of the Volga, which is confirmed by DNA studies, showing the continuity of the existence of the existing ethnic group in these territories. And their place on the territory now called "Ukraine" was taken by the descendants of the Khazars, Tatars, Pechenegs and Polovtsians with all sorts of other nomadic rabble. This cocktail has absolutely nothing to do with either the Trypillian culture or Russia in general.
    1. stalkerwalker
      22 December 2015 12: 08 New
      +2
      Quote: Horn
      Epics about the so-called. "Kievan Rus" were recorded on the territory of the Arkhangelsk, Vologda, Novgorod and Yaroslavl regions.

      That's it written.
      Created before ....
      I dare to suggest that the Serpent Gorynych appeared in Russian-Slavic folklore during the residence of Slavic tribes in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries on the slopes of the Carpathian Mountains. Where, judging by the chronicles, they met them.
      1. Bully
        Bully 22 December 2015 13: 40 New
        +2
        Quote: stalkerwalker
        I dare to suggest that the Serpent Gorynych appeared in Russian-Slavic folklore during the residence of Slavic tribes in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries on the slopes of the Carpathian Mountains. Where, judging by the chronicles, they met them.

        I don't know about the Serpent Gorynych, but the Russian people called a specific character Koschey. An excerpt from the epic "Ivan Khazarin":
        ... Russians returned from overseas of the Khvalynsky Strug from a victorious campaign. And there were half a thousand of those from Oleg, the glorified squad. And they brought with them rich booty, two hundred thousand Russian slaves and slaves from the prisoners of Khvalyn, they drove them home - to capital Kiev.

        But the way was not close to them home. Past the hail of Kagan Koshcheev, up the sea river and to the dragging, and along the dragging, dotted with bones, past the Belaya Vezha - the kagan fortress, they drag the plows to the Smorodina river, fighting off the Khazars and nomads. And then along the river Smorodin, in Tanais, the sea is rich in fish. From it - to the sunset - to the Black Sea, past the Kafa Kaganova fortress, right to the mouth of the native Slavutich. And they go three months and a quarter from Koscheev’s city to Kiev ...
        1. Horn
          Horn 22 December 2015 16: 16 New
          0
          The epic "Ilya Muromets and Zhidovin" specifically indicates the predominant ethnic group in the Dnieper region.
      2. Horn
        Horn 22 December 2015 16: 13 New
        +1
        Carefully quote: Not written, but recorded. Recorded - this means that folklorists recorded oral legends. Folklore-ethnographic expeditions traveled throughout Russia. But the epics about Kievan Rus were circulated in the oral folk tradition only where listed above.
    2. epsilon571
      epsilon571 22 December 2015 12: 59 New
      +1
      Horn (4) RU Today
      It follows from this that the heirs of the so-called. Kievan Rus lives now on the territory of the Russian North and the upper reaches of the Volga, which is confirmed by DNA studies, showing the continuity of the existence of the existing ethnic group in these territories. And their place on the territory now called "Ukraine" was taken by the descendants of the Khazars, Tatars, Pechenegs and Polovtsians with all sorts of other nomadic rabble. This cocktail has absolutely nothing to do with either the Trypillian culture or Russia in general.


      Before talking about the epics and legends of ancient Russia, which in fact are our "genetic memory", let's figure out where the word history came from. The term history "the science of the development of human society" originated from the word in general use. In the terminological sense, the word history came into the Russian language in the 18th century, but even in ancient times this word was used in monuments in the sense of "story", "narration". As a term, the word history has entered into many languages. According to some scholars, the word history came from the Greek language through the Old Church Slavonic, according to others, the Greek word came through the German language from the Latin language.
      The original meaning of the Greek word historia "research", "narration" has undergone the following changes: "narration about what I learn"> "story about events in the past"> term (general history; history of Russia; history of Ukraine).
      However, there is another point of view on this score, expressed by Vladimir Evgenievich Bershadsky, the creator of the so-called archeolinguistics. He believes that the "WORD" HISTORY "is not at all from Herodotus. In Hebrew, the word הסתרה / istara means "Hiding, Hiding". (http://shkolazhizni.ru/archive/0/n-18444/)
      But what he says about the "historians" ... "The very word history is translated from Hebrew as" hidden, erased. " Tell me, what do you think - who washed, hid the true story? That's right, this was done by the chroniclers-historians on the instructions of the ruling, for political purposes. " After all, history is written by people INTERESTED in hiding the truth. And I myself became convinced that it is historical research that is subjected to the strictest censorship.
      But it is indisputable that history (a word that comes from the Hebrew "istar" - "hidden") reveals the truth gradually and not to everyone at once. To whom is the truth revealed? The one who is preparing for her arrival.
      Here's another curious point of view: The origin of the word "history" refers to the XVIII century, that is, to the Petrine era. First, Peter I abolished the traditional Russian chronology. Decrees of December 19 and 20, 1699 established a new celebration of the new year - the countdown of the new year was postponed from September 1 to January 1, and instead of the year from the creation of the world, the year reckoning from the Nativity of Christ was introduced.
      Thus, let us conclude: Among other “pseudosciences”, “science” HISTORY is distinguished by the unique feature that the very object of scientific research - the facts of historical reality - is very often found to be deliberately falsified in it. (see continuation)
      1. stalkerwalker
        22 December 2015 13: 12 New
        +2
        Quote: epsilon571
        Among other “pseudosciences”, “science” HISTORY is distinguished by the unique feature that the very object of scientific research - the facts of historical reality - quite often turns out to be intentionally falsified in it.

        Well that's just awesome ...
        Deny to chroniclers and chroniclers the right to expound History as an enumeration of accomplished intravital facts?
        To call historians and historiographers falsifiers only because they processed and generalized historical documents?
        How to live that? wassat
        1. epsilon571
          epsilon571 22 December 2015 14: 13 New
          +1
          stalkerwalker (3) RU Today
          Well that's just awesome ...
          Deny to chroniclers and chroniclers the right to expound History as an enumeration of accomplished intravital facts?

          Forced to repeat: ".. History reveals the truth gradually and not to everyone at once. To whom is the truth revealed? To the one who prepares for its coming .." Real historians, I consider those people who are able to decipher their true meaning despite the opinions and materials legitimized by official science.
          1. stalkerwalker
            22 December 2015 14: 40 New
            +2
            Quote: epsilon571
            Real historians, I consider those people who are able to decipher their true meaning despite the opinions and materials legitimized by official science.

            Well, you know .... Arkaim smells. wassat
            Or rather, interpretations in the style of "... newly discovered circumstances ...".
            The history of Russia / Russia was studied and "deciphered" by famous historians such as Solovyov, Klyuchevsky. And in their works there were no critical remarks about Bayer, Miller, Schletzer. And who, like Klyuchevsky, were not aware of Lomonosov's "prejudices" in relation to the above authors of the so-called. Normanism.
            Klyuchevsky, before writing The Complete Course in Russian History, published a number of "applied" studies from "The Economic Activities of the Solovetsky Monastery in the White Sea Territory" (1867) to "Poll Tax and the Abolition of Serfdom in Russia" (1886).
            The present time, full of fakes and "remakes" from History, along with neo-historians of all stripes, only brings confusion to ignorant souls.
            1. epsilon571
              epsilon571 22 December 2015 22: 21 New
              0
              stalkerwalker (3) RU Today
              Well, you know .... Arkaim smacks of


              Sorry for being late with the answer, I didn’t notice right away, but now about the remark. I agree with you only in one thing - you should not go to extremes and chop off your shoulder, in this you are right. But you also have to understand, official science (despite many achievements) is in many ways a very crafty thing. Due to the reluctance to rewrite the facts studied before the holes, the academicians are ready to turn a blind eye to everything that does not fit into the framework of their official judgments, and this is fundamentally wrong. Science must develop, there can be no axioms, and new discoveries and excavations prove this.
              Undoubtedly there are charlatans from science - the court historians of modern Ukraine are an example of this, but there are also enthusiasts - patriots of their people and truth-seekers. Today everyone knows them: Mikhail Zadornov, Sergey Alekseev, Valery Chudinov (this is what is heard), they need to help, and not brush off as insane. Official science should do all this, especially since there is a reasonable grain in their ideas. Something like this, I’m afraid I won’t be able to answer in more detail, I see you are a simple person, and I’m sorry for the power.
              1. stalkerwalker
                22 December 2015 22: 41 New
                +2
                Quote: epsilon571
                but there are also enthusiasts - patriots of their people and truth-seekers. Today everyone knows them: Mikhail Zadornov, Sergey Alekseev

                Zadornov does not have a single serious study. Only versions backed by amateur videos.
                With all due respect to Lomonosov M.V. as a scientist, I can say that he was not a historian. And all his anger towards the Germans, who "defamed the history of the Slavs" was not supported by anything. And nothing today can shake the classical History of Russia.
                Everything that today they are trying to present under the guise of "in-depth history of the Slavs" is nothing more than fortune telling on coffee grounds. Because no one was able to refute (with facts in hand) the history of the appearance and settlement of the Slavs from the area of ​​the middle Danube in Europe.
                Quote: epsilon571
                . Something like this, I’m afraid I won’t be able to answer in more detail, I see you are a simple person, and it’s a shame for my power.

                I'm not a historian either. And my article is the answer to the maidan jumpers "Who is who". laughing
                I deliberately put in the article a map from a Ukrainian source, on which one can trace how the Ottoman Turks and Crimean Tatars "courted" the territory of today's Ukraine. This is the question of the purity of Slavic blood, raised by the same Bandera-zombies.
                1. I am Russian
                  I am Russian 22 December 2015 23: 04 New
                  +1
                  The fact is that the classical history of Russia is also not supported by anything. She just has a lobby with the rulers of the state. She is beneficial to them.
                  In the entire history of the Romanovs, the Academy of Sciences had only three Russian scientists, one of them Lomonosov, the rest Germans. The three historians who wrote the story did not know the Russian language at all (39 letters were in the language then).
                  1. stalkerwalker
                    22 December 2015 23: 12 New
                    +2
                    Quote: I-Russian
                    the classical history of Russia is also not supported by anything.

                    What should be understood by the word "nothing"? Nosovsky's nonsense with Fomenko?
                    If you do not accept what is considered the History of Russia, then I am truly sorry for you. You are on the way with the great Ukrainians.
                    Quote: I-Russian
                    The three historians who wrote the story did not know the Russian language at all (39 letters were in the language then).

                    New Russian-speaking pseudo historians don't inspire me so much. No serious versions, no research. Some sighs and hints with stories "... but there they dug something out ...".
                    1. I am Russian
                      I am Russian 23 December 2015 06: 56 New
                      +1
                      You did not answer the question.
                      1. stalkerwalker
                        23 December 2015 09: 46 New
                        +2
                        I answered.
                    2. I am Russian
                      I am Russian 23 December 2015 07: 07 New
                      +2
                      That is, you accept that the Slavs were wild before the appearance of Rurik, hanging on the trees with their tails; that our ancestors were illiterate?
                      What does the new update mean ?? stop
                      Until 1917, there were 37 (38) capital letters in Russian alphabet. If you are not up to date.
                      Well, go on a dig with archaeologists and see for yourself. And how the finds are then ascribed to other eras and peoples.
                      1. stalkerwalker
                        23 December 2015 09: 50 New
                        +2
                        Quote: I-Russian
                        That is, you accept that the Slavs were wild before the appearance of Rurik, hanging on the trees with their tails; that our ancestors were illiterate?

                        I have not claimed anything like this. You use such template questions in vain.
                        Quote: I-Russian
                        Until 1917, there were 37 (38) capital letters in Russian alphabet. If you are not up to date.

                        Thank you for enlightening ... laughing
                        Quote: I-Russian
                        Well, go to the excavations with archaeologists and you will see for yourself

                        Where to?
                        What did you dig out?
                    3. Vasilenko Vladimir
                      Vasilenko Vladimir 23 December 2015 07: 56 New
                      +2
                      Quote: stalkerwalker
                      Nosovsky’s ravings with Fomenko?

                      Yes, what do they have to do with it, by the way they are not the first
                2. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir 22 December 2015 23: 15 New
                  +1
                  Quote: stalkerwalker
                  And nothing today can shake the classical History of Russia.
                  Everything that today they are trying to present under the guise of "in-depth history of the Slavs" is nothing more than fortune telling on coffee grounds.

                  Well, today's classical history is the same fortune-telling and there are so many questions in it that you don’t know what exactly is coffee grounds or a history textbook
                  1. stalkerwalker
                    22 December 2015 23: 18 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                    Well, today's classical history is the same fortune-telling and there are so many questions in it that you don’t know what exactly is coffee grounds or a history textbook

                    From this moment, please, in more detail .... laughing
                    Where do you see inconsistencies in classic History? fool
                    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                      Vasilenko Vladimir 23 December 2015 07: 53 New
                      0
                      Quote: stalkerwalker
                      From this moment, please, in more detail ....

                      for God's sake
                      where do we start with Peter the First, misunderstood to be called great, or from the "near" Paul, from the notorious "yoke"?
                      in all these three points, the mass is not of joints and such points in our history are not three or even ten
                      1. stalkerwalker
                        23 December 2015 09: 43 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        in all these three points, the mass is not of joints and such points in our history are not three or even ten

                        I do not know from what sources your inconsistent information.
                        But I hope that I can give links to the questions of interest to you in the work of Klyuchevsky "Course of Russian History".
                      2. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 23 December 2015 09: 56 New
                        0
                        that is, the reign of Peter the Great was successful, paul 1, and the Mongols managed to organize themselves from wild nomads into an organized army for a couple of years, learned siege warfare and were able to organize an army, and after that they trampled over for five thousand kilometers, by the way calmly conquered China, Georgia part of India, but at the same time scared of Novgorod swamps
                      3. stalkerwalker
                        23 December 2015 10: 18 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        oh there is the reign of Peter the first successful, paul 1

                        What is “wrong” with Peter I, as well as with Paul I?
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        the Mongols were able to organize themselves from wild nomads into an organized army for a couple of years

                        Well, in vain you call the army of Genghis Khan wild nomads. Such a definition can be attributed to the Polovtsian and Pecheneg tribes, with the exception of those that were taken to the service of Kiev.
                        And in the battle on Kalka, these semi-civilized allies were no use.
                      4. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 23 December 2015 11: 24 New
                        0
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        What is “wrong” with Peter I, as well as with Paul I?

                        and that's it, the country was on the verge of a catastrophe through his fault, much was attributed to him for which he didn’t sleep and spirit, Pavel was not stupid and was killed not because they supposedly didn’t have quite a nobility, but because he was preparing for war with England and made an alliance with Bonoparte, right?
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Well, in vain you call the army of Genghis Khan wild nomads.

                        Listen to this and there were nomads, and they remained almost completely until our time, or is Genghis not a Mongol ?!
                      5. stalkerwalker
                        23 December 2015 11: 39 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        the country was on the verge of a catastrophe through his fault, he was attributed a lot of things to which he did not sleep or spirit, Pavel was not stupid and was killed not because they allegedly didn’t have quite a nobility, but because he was preparing for war with England and concluded an alliance with Bonoparte

                        The consequences of the reformism of Peter and Paul somehow contradict a common History of Russia?
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        these were nomads and they remained almost completely until our time, or Genghis is not a Mongol

                        Nomads. But not wild.
                        It is both contrary a common History of Russia?
                      6. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 23 December 2015 12: 49 New
                        0
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        The consequences of the reformism of Peter and Paul somehow contradict the general history of Russia?

                        consequences of peter coordinating
                        the main postulate, before Peter the Great Russia, was a bastard, backward, in which not distant bearded savages live dressed in stupid, not comfortable clothes
                        in fact, in pre-Petrine Pusi, the monastery yards were major suppliers of artillery, rifles, ship ropes to Europe, Russia is the only country that had an ocean fleet in the north, not coastal, but oceanic
                        we still feel the result of this hoax, the humiliation of the Eurasian-Russian civilization and the persistent complex in front of the West

                        about Paul there is another song, but again, historians seem to be lying

                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Nomads. But not wild.

                        until a certain time, but in the development of a nomadic civilization more and more technologically behind the settled
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Is this contrary to the general history of Russia?

                        more than, not knowing what the horde is, we are again engaged in self-flagellation and ashes of our heads, by the way, Turkic nationalists of all stripes still use this
                      7. stalkerwalker
                        23 December 2015 13: 20 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        the main postulate, before Peter the Great Russia, was a bastard, backward, in which not distant bearded savages live dressed in stupid, not comfortable clothes

                        Haha ... laughing
                        So I see footage from the movie Peter I.
                        This is such a cliche, not the best of terrible tales about three German villains.
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Nomads. But not wild.


                        until a certain time, but in the development of a nomadic civilization more and more technologically behind the settled

                        Where are the contradictions here? The nomadic form of civilization does not contradict the principle of "seized and imposed tribute". Which is exactly what the Horde did. And there is no particular embarrassment in the fact that Moscow Rus was a tributary of the Horde for more than one hundred years.
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        not knowing what the horde is, we are again engaged in self-flagellation and ashes of our heads, by the way, Turkic nationalists of all stripes still use this

                        These are the problems of the nationalist Turks.
                        Russia survived the yoke. And it continues to exist today as the Russian Federation in the form of its historical heiress.
                        Where is that Horde? It has become a symbol of the nomads, coming and going. Like those Avars-obras who have gone nowhere. And the Slavic Slavs who participated in raids on the Roman Empire (and where is it?), Both in alliance with the Avars and in fighting with them, are still alive.
                      8. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 23 December 2015 13: 26 New
                        0
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        This is such a cliche, not the best of terrible tales about three German villains.

                        this stamp is from school books
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Where are the contradictions here? The nomadic kind of civilization does not contradict the principle of "captured and imposed tribute"

                        Well, the tribute already contradicts the nomadic image, then the horde not only encircled the tribute but also created it, then you bypassed the question of what made the nomads plod across the whole continent, the third one to besiege the city you need to know what it is, etc., etc.
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        And there is no particular embarrassment in the fact that Moscow Russia was a tributary of the Horde for hundreds of years.

                        but at the same time the yoke is described as something terrible and the Russian tsars marry the Horde princesses
                      9. stalkerwalker
                        23 December 2015 13: 42 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        This is such a cliche, not the best of terrible tales about three German villains.
                        this stamp is from school books

                        I more or less read the textbooks of my daughters - both in history and in other subjects. And I can say one thing about Tokma - the material is compressed so that it is sometimes easier to apply stamps and cliches.
                        But there is a higher school. There are primary sources.
                        In the end, the role of Peter the Great is "slightly" exaggerated by Western publications, just as the role of Ivan the Terrible is spattered.
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        but at the same time the yoke is described as something terrible and the Russian tsars marry the Horde princesses

                        In the history of France there were de Gaulle and Petain. One is a hero, the other is a traitor. But France did not survive the horrors of the Wehrmacht occupation, similar to those that fell to the lot of the USSR. And Petain credited it to himself.
                        Ivan Kalita can be called a collector of Russian lands. And you can blame that he corny bought land from impoverished princes, adding these lands to the Moscow principality.
                        And what about the right to yasak?
                        And where is now the kingdom of the Kyrgyz Yenisei, who fell under the pressure of Genghis Khan’s troops? And who is crying for the Prussians completely cut by the Teutons?
                        And the proud Poles? Today they are proud. And who only "had" them? But they are alive, you bastards.
                      10. stalkerwalker
                        23 December 2015 13: 47 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Well, the tribute is already contrary to the nomadic image, then the horde not only encircled the tribute but also created

                        What are you? Since when have profits and a nomadic lifestyle contradict each other? The Pechenegs-patients were sitting on subsidies of Byzantium.
                        What did the horde create?
                      11. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 23 December 2015 15: 11 New
                        0
                        they didn’t pay tribute to Russia; everything was much more complicated, by the way, the Horde had a capital, that is, a city, and this is no longer a nomad
                      12. stalkerwalker
                        23 December 2015 15: 29 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        it was not a tribute to Russia; everything was much more complicated there

                        ... I am Crimean .... We do not have everything so simple .... laughing
                        All medieval Europe was confident that the Tsar of Moscow was a tributary of the Horde. Hence the maps given I am Russianon which there is NO Russia, but there is Tartaria.
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        By the way, the Horde had a capital, that is, a city

                        Where is this city that has not yet been found? But there was no vermouth there, the Americans did not carry out carpet bombing. recourse
                        There was a banal giant camp with temporary buildings.
                        But everyone likes to mention the mysterious city of Arkaim .... fellow
  • populist
    populist 22 December 2015 21: 57 New
    0
    epsilon571 (1) RU Today, 14:13 PM ↑ New

    stalkerwalker (3) RU Today
    Well that's just awesome ...
    Deny to chroniclers and chroniclers the right to expound History as an enumeration of accomplished intravital facts?

    I have to repeat myself: ".. History reveals the truth gradually and not to everyone at once. To whom is the truth revealed? To the one who prepares for its coming .."


    I love the story.
    I recommend to respected discourseists for reading the major two-volume work of Yuri Semyonov "The Philosophy of History." A very high quality thing, but quite difficult to read. There is in this book, and about chroniclers, and about what history is. In fact, at present there is a whole set of historical sciences - philosophy of history, historiosophy, history (as soon as a description of events), falsified history, science (history)
    exposing these falsifications and a whole series of historical sciences.
  • Plastun
    Plastun 22 December 2015 18: 20 New
    0
    Uh, you’re overbearing, dear, genetically, we with the Ukrainians are almost identical. Well, there are more Asian people in the Ukrainians (who would have thought), but one nation ...
  • Alex_59
    Alex_59 22 December 2015 10: 03 New
    +2
    Something is wrong in the article. What does the Zaporozhye Cossacks have to do with it? In my opinion, these are some of the most "pro-Russian" minded types of Ukrainians. But those who are really Bender-minded are Westerners, Catholics, and even then not all of them.
    1. stalkerwalker
      22 December 2015 12: 08 New
      +2
      Quote: Alex_59
      What does the Zaporozhye Cossacks have to do with it? In my opinion, these are some of the most "pro-Russian" minded types of Ukrainians

      What do you mean?
      what
    2. epsilon571
      epsilon571 22 December 2015 13: 04 New
      +3
      Alex_59 RU Today
      Something is wrong in the article. What does the Zaporozhye Cossacks have to do with it? In my opinion, these are some of the most "pro-Russian" minded types of Ukrainians. But those who are really Bender-minded are Westerners, Catholics, and even then not all of them.


      How, where and when did the first “Ukrainians” appear (Continued)

      The Great Anti-Russian Project of the West to create a separate Ukrainian people and state has two fundamental parts. This is the creation of a false history of the non-existent Ukrainian nation and its endowment with its own language, different from the historically inherent Russian.

      Let's see how and by whom the myth of the existence of the Ukrainian nation was born and what sophistication with regard to their own past they had to resort to. Let us ask ourselves a question: when and how did such concepts “Ukraine” and “Ukrainian” first appear? How and where was the new “Ukrainian nation" forged? We will use historical facts for our analysis.

      Well-known annalistic sources on the history of 9-13 centuries, i.e. For 5 centuries, a number of terms have been used as ethnonyms for the name of the population of Russia: “Rus”, “Russian clan”, “Russians”, “Rus”, “Rossi”, “Russian n arode”. But all of them are based on two keywords - “Russia” and “Russian”. That is how the inhabitants of Russia self-determined themselves at that time, far from us. They did not call themselves “Little Russians”, “Great Russians”, “Eastern Slavs”, “South Russian people” or “North Russian”, “Russians”, and even more so “Ukrainians”. All these terms are the invention of a new time and, from a scientific point of view, have no right to retroactively implement in previous eras. Therefore, in order to restore the objective picture of the past, we must once and for all reject the terminological speculations on this subject of liberal-communist and Ukrainian historiography as pseudoscientific and anti-historical. The term “Ukraine” is also found in chronicles, but always in the meaning of “border”, “border region”, “outskirts”. There is no toponym "Ukraine" in the sources of ancient Russia! Attempts by the “Ukrainians" to stick it to them retroactively are a deliberate manipulation and falsification of real historical facts. Those. neither in ethnic, nor in cultural terms, Ancient Russia did not contain anything “Ukrainian” in itself, especially since there was no mention of “Ukrainians” as a certain ethnic group.
      1. Horn
        Horn 22 December 2015 16: 21 New
        0
        That's right. Like today's Germans, they never called themselves Deutsch.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Sanya Rus
    Sanya Rus 22 December 2015 12: 28 New
    +1
    the card is really Bendery, completely wrong, falsified, like everything is now in Ukraine .. Zaporozhye is called so that it was located beyond the Dnieper rapids, the tale of Kirill Kozhemyak is from the collection of Russian fairy tales))
    1. stalkerwalker
      22 December 2015 13: 04 New
      +3
      Quote: Sanya Rus
      the tale of Cyril Kozhemyak, this is from the collection of Russian fairy tales))

      Nikita Kozhemyaka - the hero of a folk tale, recorded in several versions in different provinces of Great, Lesser and White Russia, which essentially does not change the meaning of the article.
      But attributed to Ukrainian folklore.
  • Volzhanin
    Volzhanin 22 December 2015 14: 15 New
    0
    And if the author had indicated, in addition, the reasons why Batu defeated these collaborators, then everything would have fallen into place simply "without a gap"!
    1. stalkerwalker
      22 December 2015 14: 46 New
      +3
      Quote: Volzhanin
      And if, in addition, the author indicated the reasons why Batu defeated these collaborators

      However?! fellow
      By the time of the Batu invasion, the internecine strife was tearing Russia apart in all its glory. The battle of Kalka in 1223 was like a wake-up call regarding the integrity of Russia as a single state. Alas ... The ears of the princes were deaf.
  • Avantageur
    Avantageur 22 December 2015 21: 30 New
    +1
    Folklore is like a litmus test ...
  • populist
    populist 22 December 2015 22: 22 New
    0
    Folklore as a litmus test of historical memory

    The author is right that the Ukrainian population is newcomer, but it is mistaken that ignorance of the epics of the Kiev cycle affected the national identity of this population.
    If this population had been brought up from 1917 to 1991, as Russians, then they would have been Russian.
    And what they brought up, they got it.
    There was such a cute little piglet. and such a big pig grew up. (From folk folklore)
    1. stalkerwalker
      22 December 2015 22: 43 New
      +2
      Quote: populist
      The author is right that the Ukrainian population is newcomer, but it is mistaken that ignorance of the epics of the Kiev cycle affected the national identity of this population.

      Come on... wassat
      I didn’t put a cart before the horse. laughing
  • ProtectRusOrDie
    ProtectRusOrDie 23 December 2015 04: 55 New
    -1
    Quote: Ami du peuple
    Has something changed in the mentality of the descendants of the proud "Zaporozhye Cossacks"? As before, the rejection of historical ties with kindred people ...

    Exactly! It's time to forget this mantra about the "brotherly people". And he treats them accordingly - as unfriendly neighbors. If the "European" historical choice of Ukrainians is to be Polish slaves, then why should they interfere with this? You can't be cute ...

    Of course! Let's also forget about the brotherhood with Belarusians, Chechens, Armenians, Georgians, Chuvashs and many many others! You are in favor of this?
    A Bad Brother is still a Brother. This is how our ancestors bequeathed to us. Yes, you can not press him to your chest, you can not run after him and give time to change your mind - but "surgically remove" from memory and heart ?? Dismiss!

    Answer me the question - how did the non-Maidan Ukrainian people harm us (except for the non-action)?
  • populist
    populist 23 December 2015 06: 56 New
    +1
    stalkerwalker
    Well that's just awesome ...
    Deny to chroniclers and chroniclers the right to expound History as an enumeration of accomplished intravital facts?

    Chroniclers are different.
    For example, such as Kostomarov, Grushevsky, Rezun ...
    Yes, I almost forgot one more, especially outstanding - Leonid - Chronicler. This one is in vivo ... Yes, and what is the difference in essence - in vivo or nonvital.
    1. stalkerwalker
      23 December 2015 10: 04 New
      +3
      Quote: populist
      For example, such as Kostomarov, Grushevsky, Rezun.

      You know very well that none of them is a chronicler. These people are historiographers. Bad historiographers. Because engaged in the "interpretation" of historical events that sometimes happened before their birth, in a light favorable to their own position, or convenient for a certain group of people.
      I will tell you and other opponents one thing - you should not give examples of "political extremism" in the study of the History of Russia.
      I am starting from the classical interpretation of the question "Where did the Russian land come from ...", with an emphasis on the "donestorian period" sources such as Tacitus, Jordan, Al Masoudi.
      If we refer to non-existent documents, then we already had Tatishchev. wassat
  • Pomeranian
    Pomeranian 9 February 2016 14: 09 New
    0
    http://www.xpomo.com/ruskolan/rasa/rus_face.htm
    This article explains a lot. Including "we will never become brothers". Actually, we were not "brothers". Perhaps cousins.