Military Review

Red Army soldiers in Polish captivity

52
Red Army soldiers in Polish captivity



European concentration camp 1919 of the year through the eyes of the commander of the Red Army

The theme of Polish prisoners of war in Katyn pops up in Poland whenever it comes to its relationship with Russia. But to recall the fate of about two hundred thousand Red Army, trapped in the Polish concentration camps, it is not accepted.

New borders of the Commonwealth


It is possible that long-past events could have been left to the court of a narrow circle of historians, if only the shadows of the past did not like to feed on aggressive nationalism. Recently, the Polish radicals are moving from words to action: on Independence Day on November 11, 2013, participants in the nationalist “Independence March” attacked the Russian Embassy in Warsaw. This year, the national holiday is once again celebrated "The Run of Independence". But on the map of the "Polish run" the territory of Western Belarus is already marked as part of the Commonwealth. In the past, 2014, the race winners, were given medals cast in the shape of a map of Poland with a fair amount of Western Belarus and Ukraine.

Almost a hundred years ago, the Polish army had already fought eastward, seizing Belarus. And two decades before Katyn, an even greater tragedy broke out in the camps for Russian prisoners of war. In one of the archives, the author found evidence from the commander of the Red Army, Vasily Selivanov, about his stay in the Polish concentration camp in 1919.

Vasily Stepanovich Selivanov participated in the First World War, the October Revolution met in the ranks of the party of the Left Social Revolutionaries. In December, 1917 was a delegate to the All-Belarusian Congress in Minsk, which was dispersed by order of Oblikomzap chairman Alexander Myasnikov (Myasnikyan). Selivanov, like all the Left Social Revolutionaries, criticized the Bolsheviks for the Brest Peace with Germany and the heavy surplus for the peasants. In July, 1918 was elected a delegate to the 5 Congress of Soviets in Moscow. After the Left Socialist-Revolutionary uprising that broke out at that time, he was arrested by the Cheka. After liberation, he arrived in Gomel occupied by the Germans and Ukrainian Haidamaks. He actively participated in the combat operations of the local underground, blew up the hetman Warta (police) branch in Gomel.

After the liberation of Gomel from the Germans and Haidamaks in January 1919, Vasily Selivanov joined the Communist Party. Obviously, like many other Left Social Revolutionaries, he considered that the Bolsheviks, for all their harshness and ambiguity, were the most effective force in the revolution, including in the struggle against foreign intervention in Russia.

"Smooth with even ..."


Already at the beginning of 1919, Polish legions rush to Belarus. Strictly speaking, the Polish pansy never left this place.

And after the division of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, most of the Polish landowners remained in Belarus. Some of them participated in three Polish uprisings, some, on the contrary, in their suppression. In the summer of 1917 in Belarus, the Polish Corps of General Jozef Dovbor-Musnitsky was formed as part of the Russian army. Legionnaires were under the ideological influence of Polish nationalists of the most extreme sense - the "people's democracy". Therefore, immediately after the October Revolution, numerous Polish landowners of the Mogilev province saw in the armed legions their natural defense against Belarusian peasants. In January, the 1918 th Polish Corps launched a revolt. But the Red Guard detachments defeated units of Dovbor-Musnitsky near Rogachev and Zhlobin, the Polish legions moved away to the west and, together with the German army, occupied Minsk.

But the German Empire suffered a defeat in the war, and then the Polish patriots, previously loyal to Germany, declared the formation of a new Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. At the same time, the "people's democrats" without ceremony said that all Belarusian and Ukrainian lands should enter the borders of Poland of model 1772. But the protégé of the “narodvitsev”, Jozef Dovbor-Musnitsky, removed another Jozef - Pilsudski from power. This renegade of the socialist movement, becoming the “Head of the Polish State”, pursued a more flexible policy: Pilsudski hinted at some kind of “federation” with Belarus and Ukraine. But while Polish politicians were building different combinations, the Polish legions began to seize Belarus. Pilsudski’s demagogic slogan “Free with freedom, even with smooth ...” in fact turned into concentration camps and arrests not only for communists, but also for Belarusian national figures, for looting and pogroms for the peaceful population.


Tuchol concentration camp. Photo: Wikipedia.org

In view of the onset of the Piłsudski legions, the Red Army opened a new front in Belarus, the “Belopolsky” front.

Trotsky against the proletarian battalions


In April – May, the 1919 Revolutionary Proletarian Battalion was formed to assist the Western Front in Gomel in 1. The word “proletarian” is not just a tribute to the spirit of the time: the unit really consisted of workers who joined it voluntarily or on “union mobilization”. The initiator of the creation of the battalion was the young leader of the Trade Union of commercial and industrial employees Azriel Zharkovsky.

True, it was not without incidents during the formation of the battalion. According to strict Marxist canons, some of the members of the Gomel trade unions were not the proletariat at all, but also artisans and other "petty-bourgeois fellow travelers." And some of them, quite according to Demian Poor, believed that the Bolsheviks would do without them. As the newspaper “The Way of the Soviets” wrote 10 in May 1919, a member of the trade union of the garment workers, a certain G. Yudashkin, voted for the trade-union mobilization, but at the same time was released from it “for health reasons”. But the brave Swede refused to undergo a repeat medical examination. Whether he was a distant relative or just the namesake of the famous fashion designer, история is silent.

Vasily Selivanov, a former left SR, was appointed commander of the battalion. It was assumed that the formation will operate under the control of "all parties advocating Soviet power." Perhaps it was this circumstance that caused a negative attitude towards the battalion on the part of Lev Trotsky. In May 1919, the formidable chairman of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Republic issued an order: “Dismantle the 1 th Proletarian battalion, hand over the head of the Pariysky headquarters to the guard battalion, send the personnel to the marching companies ...”

But Trotsky in Gomel did not obey: the marching companies were sent to the front, but the battalion was not disbanded.

"Comrades Red Army, with God!"

After the arrival in Minsk of the three companies of the proletarian battalion, Selivanov was transferred to the commissars, and the former officer Chiber was appointed as the battalion commander. The commander of the 17 Infantry Division Borzinsky, also an officer of the tsarist army, delivered a speech before the new arrivals. Sending the battalion to the front line, the commander Borzinsky addressed the Red Army soldiers in the old way: “God be with you!” Almost immediately after arriving at the positions, the battalion was involved in heavy battles with the Poles. In the first battle in the positions of Blue Gorka two fighters were killed. Selivanova wounded in the arm, but he did not leave the front line. Three days later, at the village of Stayki, a battalion of bayonet counterattack overturned the Polish infantry. The founder of the battalion Zharkovsky was killed. June 30 command, not listening to the objections Selivanova, under the Blue Gorka threw the battalion in an unprepared, without artillery support attack. A third of the personnel was killed, the remnants of the battalion were reduced to one company.


Vasily Selivanov. Photo: Funds GIKU "Gomel Palace and Park Ensemble"

1 July 1919, the Polish army in Belarus, many times reinforced by the 70-thousandth corps of General Józef Haller from France, launched an offensive on the entire front. By the morning of July 3, the “proletarian” company was surrounded by the village of Liski. Selivanov raised it to the counterattack, but fell: his legs were interrupted by a machine-gun burst. Before being taken prisoner, the few Red Army men who had survived from the company hid Selivanov’s leather jacket and shaved his lush head of hair: it was known that the Poles had personal orientations for commanders and commissars.

The bleeding wounded Poles laid out in a row, without rendering them any help. They drove past the rest of the prisoners, demanding to indicate the commanders and political workers. In case of identification Selivanova was waiting for the immediate execution. But no one gave him away, and one of the fighters even said: “Our commander was killed before my eyes.”

Survivors waited concentration camps in Poland.

"Human need, appealing to heaven for retribution ..."


In the crowded goods wagons, the prisoners were taken to the Belostok transit camp. Selivanov wrote: “In the camp, as a rule, there was no bread at all for the prisoners of bread, and there is no need to talk about hot food. In this camp, we had no days of bread at all for 8 – 10 ... We witnessed the prisoners tearing grass from under the barbed wire and eating it.

In addition to starvation, the day after our arrival, the White-Polish gendarmes finally began to undress the prisoners, taking the outer clothing and, if anyone had, decent underwear. In exchange, they gave out dirty rags.

The wounded still did not receive medical care. It happened, comrades died from blood poisoning, and some were bleeding from wounds and were unconscious. In these painful moments, Maria Tkach, who worked at that time in an underground organization, helped the wounded. For days she stood at the wire fence and handed out dressings ... "

However, even in the Polish army there were honest people protesting against this state of affairs. The head of the sanitary department of the Polish Ministry of War wrote: “I visited the camp of prisoners in Bialystok and now I dared to turn to Mr. General as the chief doctor describing that terrible picture that appears to everyone arriving at the camp. Again, the same criminal neglect of the duties of all the organs in the camp brought shame on the Polish army. At every step dirt, untidiness that cannot be described, human need, appealing to heaven for retribution. ”

From Bialystok camp prisoners were transported to Warsaw. When the Red Army was driven through the streets of the Polish capital, the nationalists gathered on the sidewalks beat them with sticks and fists. The guards drove away only the workers who tried to transfer bread to the captives. In Warsaw, for the first time, the prisoners were fed with some kind of unthinkable burda They spent the night at the train station, standing in the pouring rain. Periodically they were approached by the legionnaires Jozef Haller.


Red Army soldiers in Polish captivity. Photo: Wikipedia.org

- That pan was in the Cheka in Moscow? - the Gallerist said to a randomly chosen victim, and the brutal beating began.

"Mogilev Province, come out before the whipping ..."

From Warsaw, the Red Army soldiers were transported to a camp near the town of Stshalkovo (Schelkovo). It was the largest concentration camp for Russian prisoners of war. Immediately there were interned Petliurists and participants of the Strekopytov revolt in Gomel, in the suppression of which Selivanov participated in the March of 1919. However, the Poles still intended to use them in the war with Soviet Russia and kept them in tolerable conditions, while the Red Army men were placed in separate “Bolshevik” barracks and subjected to cruel harassment.

The commandant of the Stshalkovsky camp was Lieutenant Malinovsky, a Polish landowner from near Baranavichy. For the Belarusian peasants who rebelled against Pan, he had special feelings. The camp guards were armed with whips that constantly floated. For the slightest offense, prisoners were sentenced to flogging. According to the memoirs of Vasily Selivanov, prisoners of war were flogged and just like that, whole gubernias: today they brought out the execution of the natives of Mogilev region, tomorrow - of the Minsk province. Sometimes used and whips made of barbed wire. If the tortured moaned, Malinovsky personally finishes him with a revolver. The life of a prisoner was worth three cigarettes: Malinovsky awarded the sentry who shot the prisoner with precisely this amount of tobacco products.

According to Selivanov, in the Stshalkovsk camp several dozens of people died per day from beatings, hunger and disease. According to the Russian delegation from the mixed Russian-Ukrainian-Polish commission, 10 thousand people, almost every third prisoner, died in Stshalkovo.

But if frank sadists were guarding the Polish concentration camps, then there were also people who risked themselves for the sake of helping prisoners. Polish, French, and English doctors treated the Red Army men, some of them themselves died after contracting typhus. Doctors from the Ukrainian barracks Livshits and Saption saved a lot of “Bolsheviks”. They, along with the rabbi of the town of Strshalkovo under the guise of helping religious Jews supplied all Russian prisoners of war with additional bread.

In October, 1919, Dr. Livshits helped Vasily Selivanov to escape from the camp. The fugitive made his way through the nights, hiding from prying eyes during the day. Barely alive from hunger and fatigue, the former battalion commander crossed the front line on the Ptich River. As soon as he came to himself, Vasily Selivanov returned to the service, and then wrote memoirs ...

****

In total, in captivity in Poland in the 1919 – 1921 years, according to various sources, thousands of Russian prisoners of war were killed. Almost half of the Red Army men who were in Polish concentration camps died or were killed. In captivity, the “bloody Bolsheviks” died only one out of twenty Poles ... Today, Polish officials say that the dead prisoners have become common victims of infectious diseases. But numerous facts, including the above-mentioned evidence, suggest that the Polish administration conducted a selective policy of ill-treatment and the deliberate physical destruction of Red Army soldiers in prisoners of war.

In May, a memorial sign was erected at the site of the death of Russian prisoners of war in Strzalkowo. But very soon he was removed, as "not agreed" with the local authorities. Following the monument to the 2011 – 1919 Red Army soldiers, there was a turn of monuments to soldiers of the Soviet army. In September of this year, a monument to the Soviet commander of the front Ivan Chernyakhovsky who was killed during the liberation of the Polish land was demolished in Penenzhno ...
Author:
Originator:
http://rusplt.ru/society/krasnoarmeytsyi-v-polskom-plenu-19490.html
52 comments
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  1. Ded_smerch
    Ded_smerch 7 November 2015 07: 08 New
    +17
    An urgent need to file a claim for compensation and require repentance of psheks.
    1. Maaslo Sallonen
      Maaslo Sallonen 7 November 2015 09: 17 New
      +31
      Have the bastards ever repented of their own free will? Well, perhaps before death ..... I believe that NEAR the Katyn Polish memorial, it is necessary to create our memorial to the Red Army soldiers killed and tortured in Polish captivity. But the bottom line is that going to Polish, it was IMPOSSIBLE to get around ours. So that the Poles see, while doing this twice (round-trip). Let visiting the Poles twice pay tribute to our memory. How to be a memorial, not for me to decide, there are professionals.
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 7 November 2015 13: 42 New
        +5
        Quote: Maaslo Sallonen
        I believe that NEAR the Katyn Polish memorial, it is necessary to create our memorial to the Red Army soldiers killed and tortured in Polish captivity. But the bottom line is that going to Polish, it was IMPOSSIBLE to get around ours. So that the Poles see, while doing this twice (round-trip).

        Or even demolish it, since they demolish the monuments to Soviet soldiers. How many of them died during the liberation of Poland - about 600? And in Katyn, 000 thousand?
        1. Orionvit
          Orionvit 7 November 2015 23: 55 New
          +4
          Katyn is generally a moot point. Who shot whom there still need to figure out. The whole thing is sewn with white thread, and the Western habit of blaming the Russians for everything is immediately alarming.
    2. bandabas
      bandabas 7 November 2015 11: 26 New
      0
      But what to take from them, from the wretched.
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 8 November 2015 03: 19 New
        +3
        In Katyn there were pioneer camps until June 22, 1941. They could not carry out any executions or executions. The Germans began to shoot the Poles when they realized the futility of these former warriors and began to prepare innocent * victims *.
        1. kotev19
          kotev19 12 November 2015 23: 54 New
          0
          Still, the documents remained:
      2. The comment was deleted.
  2. lao_tsy
    lao_tsy 7 November 2015 07: 10 New
    +14
    Poland - all its history was like a mongrel! In spite of all their raptures! Who is stronger - the boots and licked! Who is weaker - and mocked those. Now nothing has changed. In 20, Poland was commanded by the United Kingdom, now the United States. The mentality and methods of these states are similar.
    1. whiteeagle
      whiteeagle 7 November 2015 10: 47 New
      0
      In the 20s, Great Britain was critical of Poland. Lloyd George wanted the Poles to agree to the Curzon line i.e. so that millions of Poles fall into the hands of the Bolsheviks.
      1. Albert1988
        Albert1988 7 November 2015 13: 54 New
        +3
        Quote: whiteeagle
        In the 20s, Great Britain was critical of Poland. Lloyd George wanted the Poles to agree to the Curzon line i.e. so that millions of Poles fall into the hands of the Bolsheviks.

        That main question, where did this Curzon line go, and most importantly, what would these Poles have in the hands of those same Bolsheviks? Here was such a Bolshevik Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky - this name does not say anything to you, but he, incidentally, is an ethnic Pole)))))
        1. tank64rus
          tank64rus 7 November 2015 19: 13 New
          +3
          The Curzon line went 80% along the line that was then indicated in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
          1. Albert1988
            Albert1988 7 November 2015 22: 09 New
            +3
            Quote: tank64rus
            The Curzon line went 80% along the line that was then indicated in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

            And if we take into account that according to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of the USSR, it occupied only the territories that were previously part of Belarus, it turns out that the Curzon line was very adequate.
            And in addition to the answer of the respected whiteeagle: England was critical of Poland only because Poland was absolutely inadequate due to exorbitant imperial ambitions, but this did not stop the British from manipulating the Poles very deftly.
      2. V.ic
        V.ic 7 November 2015 15: 53 New
        +2
        Quote: whiteeagle
        Lloyd George wanted the Poles to agree to the Curzon line i.e. so that millions of Poles fall into the hands of the Bolsheviks.

        Do you think Lloyd George was an agent of the Bolsheviks?
      3. Alex
        Alex 7 November 2015 17: 42 New
        +3
        Quote: whiteeagle
        Lloyd George wanted the Poles to agree to the Curzon line i.e. so that millions of Poles fall into the hands of the Bolsheviks.

        And thereby lay a time bomb. If even now the Belarusian Poles began to vote, what would have happened in the thirties?
    2. Alex
      Alex 7 November 2015 17: 40 New
      +5
      Quote: lao_tsy
      Poland - its entire history was like a mongrel! Despite all his enthusiasm!

      So their uprisings were exclusively against Russia. Even the Warsaw Uprising, and that was only with the aim of preventing the Red Army from entering the capital. And when they were blown away, they preferred the Germans to surrender than to cooperate with us.
  3. Anatole Klim
    Anatole Klim 7 November 2015 07: 39 New
    +16
    I have always been in favor of erecting a monument to the Red Army soldiers tortured by the Poles in Katyn, and so that any Polish delegation could not pass by, let every Pole know that we remember and will not forget.
    1. Alex
      Alex 7 November 2015 17: 45 New
      +7
      Honestly, I don’t understand the point in the presence on the RUSSIAN land of the monument to the Poles killed by the GERMANS. Well, they would directly say that this is the work of the Nazis, but no, all Russians are blamed for all sins. However, nothing else can be expected from Polish pigs.
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 8 November 2015 18: 40 New
        +1
        Quote: Alex
        Honestly, I do not understand the point in the presence on the RUSSIAN land of the monument to the Poles

        How can you not see that ?! It was there that the frostbitten Russophobe Kaczynski flew there. Symbolic It’s a pity I didn’t take my brother with me.
      2. Ded_smerch
        Ded_smerch 9 November 2015 07: 38 New
        0
        no need to fight the dead. Sooner or later, the truth (our truth) will be made the main one and the memorial will be written "tormented by the Nazis." The same Austrians did not fight with memory, even when ours did, and with the Polish memorial the struggle against fascism can be strengthened, so to speak.
  4. venaya
    venaya 7 November 2015 07: 41 New
    +9
    in places of detention of prisoners of war, the Polish administration carried out an electoral policy of ill-treatment and the intentional physical destruction of Red Army soldiers.

    Continuation of the most severe Nazi-Russophobic policy, which began back in Austria-Hungary in the 1912th year. The Poles showed such incredible cruelty that even Hitler's employers were forced to first learn from them as early as the 39th year.
  5. yuriy55
    yuriy55 7 November 2015 07: 42 New
    +5
    I am sure that among all nationalities there are black sheep, but when the herd is in the scab ... request

    I hate those who are constantly begging about some compensation from Russia and constantly spoiling it ...
  6. Good cat
    Good cat 7 November 2015 07: 56 New
    +5
    One word, Pshek!
  7. The comment was deleted.
  8. MarKon
    MarKon 7 November 2015 08: 16 New
    +11
    It is necessary to put all the monuments demolished in polonium around Katyn
  9. ALEA IACTA EST
    ALEA IACTA EST 7 November 2015 08: 45 New
    +11
    After this, the Poles should just shut up and not whine about Katyn.
  10. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 7 November 2015 09: 00 New
    -23
    If anyone is interested in this topic, read the "Soviet-Polish Wars" by M. Meltiukhov. And not propaganda crafts.
    I will reveal a little secret. In the USSR, the topic of captured Red Army soldiers was banned. No research on this subject has existed. The topic was raised with a light hand by Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev. He ordered urgently to find some compromising material against the Poles in response to Katyn.
    The incriminating evidence turned out to be so-so.
    Cruelties against captured Red Army soldiers took place, but the mortality rate of the Red Army soldiers in Polish captivity and the mortality of Poles in our captivity are approximately equal. Such a time. Hunger, typhoid.
    1. moskowit
      moskowit 7 November 2015 12: 00 New
      +13
      Not true. No one hid. Who would like to study this topic. Even in popular literature it was ... It was about the internment of our troops that crossed the Polish-German border. In particular, Guy's corps ... Even the future Chief Marshal of Artillery Voronov N.N. writes about his captivity in his memoirs "In the Service of the Military"
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 7 November 2015 15: 01 New
        -5
        What does anyone have to do with what? It’s not for me to tell you that Zhukov’s memoirs were published more than ten times and each time in completely different ways. In the USSR, no one could study “who wanted”. Especially such as the failures of the Red Army.
    2. sevtrash
      sevtrash 7 November 2015 13: 54 New
      +7
      Quote: Gromobik
      The incriminating evidence turned out to be so-so.

      Well, yes, of course, so-so. How is that?
      ... This is how a member of the International Committee of the Red Cross described the camp in Brest:
      From the guardrooms, as well as from the former stables in which prisoners of war are housed, a sickening smell emanates. Prisoners chilly shudder around an improvised stove, where several logs burn, is the only way to heat. At night, hiding from the first cold weather, they are packed in tight rows in groups of 300 people in poorly lit and poorly ventilated huts, on boards, without mattresses and blankets. The prisoners are mostly dressed in rags ... because of the crowding of the premises, not suitable for housing; the cohabitation of healthy prisoners of war and infectious patients, many of whom were dying right there; malnutrition, as evidenced by numerous cases of malnutrition; edema, hunger during a three-month stay in Brest - the camp in Brest-Litovsk was a real necropolis ...

      Head of the Polish Sanitary Department:
      ... Covering only with rags, they cling to each other, warming themselves mutually. A stench from dysenteric patients and those affected by gangrene, swollen from hunger legs. Among the other patients, two especially seriously ill patients, in their own feces, oozing through the upper porti, lay in the hut, which was supposed to be just released, they no longer had the strength to rise, to cross to a dry place on the bunks ... The reasons for this state of affairs are general the plight of the country and state after the bloody and exhausting war and the resulting lack of food, clothing, shoes; camp overcrowding; sending healthy people together with patients from the front directly to the camp, without quarantine, without disinsection; finally - and let those guilty of this repent - this is slowness and indifference, neglect and non-fulfillment of their direct duties, which is a characteristic feature of our time ...

      On the ratio of infectious and non-communicable diseases:
      ... From the moment of the opening of the infirmary in February 1921 until May 11 of the same year, there were 6491 epidemic diseases in the camp (rash, recurrent and typhoid fever, cholera, dysentery, tuberculosis, etc.), non-epidemic 12294, a total of 23785 diseases ... For over the same period of time, 2561 deaths were recorded in the camp, at least 25% of the total number of prisoners held in the camp died in three months ...

      About Polish prisoners:
      ... In general, the conditions of detention of Polish prisoners in Russia were much better than the conditions in which Russian and Ukrainian prisoners were in Poland. A certain merit in this belonged to the Polish Section under the PURU of the Red Army, whose work was expanding. [15] In Russia, the vast majority of Polish prisoners were considered “class brothers” and no repressions were carried out against them [6]. If there were separate excesses in relation to prisoners, the command sought to suppress them and punish those responsible ...
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 7 November 2015 14: 02 New
        -7
        Why this long wikipedia quote? But they could not quote it?
        "Russian professor G.F. Matveev suggests that 18-20 thousand Red Army soldiers died in captivity (12-15% of the total number captured). Polish professors Z. Karpus and V. Rezmer claim that for the entire three-year stay in Poland (February 1919 - October 1921) no more than 16-17 thousand Russian prisoners of war died in Polish captivity, including about 8 thousand in the Strzalkow camp, up to 2 thousand in Tucholi and about 6-8 thousand in other camps "The statement that more than 60, 80 or 100 thousand of them died does not find confirmation in the documentation stored in the Polish and Russian civilian and military archives."
        And so yes - a terrible thing. Here is what Nikolai Ostrovsky writes about the Red Army men who were not prisoners, but who are fighting for themselves in Poland: “The worst of Polish machine guns was mowed down typhus by rows of regiments and divisions of the 12th army. The army spread out over a vast space, almost across the whole northern Ukraine, blocking the Poles from further advance . " "How steel was tempered" Put Ostrovsky minus.
        1. sevtrash
          sevtrash 7 November 2015 14: 31 New
          +6
          Quote: Gromobik
          Why this long wikipedia quote?

          And what - do not like it? Well, that’s all from the representative of the International Red Cross, the head of the Polish Health Department. You probably will not like the information from the head of the Polish intelligence?

          ... a letter from Lieutenant Colonel Ignace Matuszewski of February 1, 1922 to the cabinet of the Minister of War of Poland informs that 22 thousand prisoners of war of the Red Army were killed in the Tukhol camp since the letter of the head of Polish intelligence (II department of the General Staff of the High Command of the Polish Army). .
          And this is in ONE camp! You didn’t want to quote that?

          On the opinion of Professor GF Matveev including:
          ... Based on 110 thousand prisoners and the number of Red Army men who returned from Polish captivity (on October 15, 1921, 65 prisoners returned) prof. Z. Karpusu created a “harmonious system” of arithmetic calculations, which allows us to assert that only 797-16 thousand Red Army soldiers died in Polish captivity.
          But Professor G. Matveev in the Russian preface to the collection "The Red Army in Polish Captivity ..." rightly notes that this "seemingly flawless calculation is actually not such." G. Matveev notes that, according to Soviet data, in November 1921, 75 captured Red Army soldiers returned from Polish captivity, according to reliable Polish sources, more than 699 prisoners returned to Russia before September 1922 (Red Army soldiers. P. 78) . If we take into account this number of Red Army soldiers who returned from Polish captivity, then, based on the calculations of prof. Z. Karpusa, it turns out that in the Polish captivity the Red Army did not die at all!? ...
          You didn’t want to quote that?
          1. Thunderbolt
            Thunderbolt 7 November 2015 14: 55 New
            -8
            Perfectly. So there are letters or information on all the camps?
            Agree, there should be records - how many prisoners are in the camp at any given time. How much to order and bring food, how much protection is needed. And such accounting was conducted. Documents are stored in archives, Russian researchers were admitted to them in the fundamental research “Red Army soldiers in Polish captivity in 1919-1922” prepared by the Federal Archival Agency of Russia, the Russian State Military Archive, the State Archive of the Russian Federation, and the Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History and the Polish General Directorate of State Archives on the basis of a bilateral agreement of December 4, 2000, for the first time, researchers agreed on the number of deaths in the Polish Red Army camps - who died from epidemics, starvation and harsh conditions
            There are no such numbers close.
            In particular, in Tukhol 2 thousand died, and not 22. Maybe a typo in the letter?
            Sometimes it happens. For example, in a secret document of the General Staff, as a result of a typo, it turned out that the SSR would put up more troops against Finland than against Germany. More than a hundred divisions)))
            1. sevtrash
              sevtrash 7 November 2015 15: 07 New
              +3
              Quote: Gromobik
              And such accounting was conducted.


              Regarding the accounting and reliability of Polish researchers:
              .... Controversial allegations of prof. Z. Karpusa regarding the number of Russian prisoners of war who were in Polish captivity in the fall of 1920. A detailed and well-reasoned analysis of the erroneous calculations of Z. Karpus regarding the Red Army soldiers captured in Polish during the 20 months of war gives in the article “Once again about the number of Red Army soldiers in Polish captivity 1919-1920 ”Professor G. Matveev (Modern and Contemporary History, No. 3, 2006) ...
              ... Matveev drew attention to the "somewhat arbitrary treatment of Z. Karpus with sources" Thus, in the minutes of the meeting of the Polish State Defense Council of August 20, 1920, to which Z. Karpus refers, there is no information about the number of captured Red Army soldiers in " certain periods of the war. " There is “only Pilsudski’s statement that the total losses of the Red Army“ in the north ”, me in the Warsaw direction, amount to 100 thousand people” (Matveev. New and Contemporary History, No. 3, 2006) ...
              ... In the article “Once again on the number of Red Army soldiers in Polish captivity in 1919-1920” G. Matveev confirms the conclusion made by him in the Russian preface to the collection of documents and materials “Red Army soldiers in Polish captivity in 1919-1922”: “ Without a doubt, the data 3. The carpus is underestimated, and very significantly. Reliable sources available at the moment allow us to state that at least 157 thousand Red Army soldiers were captured by the Poles during the war ”...
              As a result, the number of dead / "disappeared" becomes much larger.

              Quote: Gromobik
              In particular, 2 thousand died in Tukhol, and not 22.

              On the basis of what did you decide so? Divided by 10? So you could divide by 100. Do you have such proof?
        2. V.ic
          V.ic 7 November 2015 16: 00 New
          0
          Tell me about "Pan's love for mo.s.kal.yu" and laugh together ...
        3. kotev19
          kotev19 13 November 2015 00: 01 New
          0
          An emigrant Russian press published in Poland wrote about Tucholi as a "death camp." The newspaper "Freedom", published in Warsaw, in October 1921 reported that by that time 22 thousand people had died in the Tuchola camp. The same number of those killed is brought by the head of the II Division of the General Staff of the Polish Army (military intelligence and counterintelligence), Lt. Col. Ignatius Matuszewski.

          In a letter dated February 1, 1922 to the cabinet of the Minister of War of Poland I. Matuszewski argued: “From the materials at the disposal of the II Department ... it should be concluded - ... the shoots (from the camps. - Auth.) Are caused by the conditions in which the Communists are and internees (lack of fuel, linen and clothes, poor nutrition, and also a long wait for departure to Russia). The camp in Tukholi, which the internees call the “death camp” (about 22000 captured Red Army soldiers died in this camp) was especially famous. ”
    3. Alex
      Alex 7 November 2015 17: 48 New
      +4
      Quote: Gromobik
      mortality of Poles in our captivity is approximately equal. Such a time. Hunger, typhoid.

      You still say that the Bolsheviks also organized this famine ...
  11. Bagno new
    Bagno new 7 November 2015 09: 49 New
    +8
    Poles were and will be our slaves, but they think the exact opposite ... we had such a camp under the birch ... but don’t worry, my friends hate and despise them, although everyone goes to them for purchases because everything is cheaper for them about 30% ...
  12. parusnik
    parusnik 7 November 2015 10: 12 New
    +5
    E. Pashukanis, attache of the Permanent Mission of the RSFSR in August 1921, wrote about the use by the Poles of the tactics of “silencing”: “Recently, the Polish side has been trying to fend off statements from our side about cruel treatment of prisoners, reporting on the recorded testimonies of some Polish soldiers about how in 1920, when they were taken prisoner, they walked all day and didn’t receive any food, or fables about visiting Poles' camps in Russia ... they collect complaints and then they shoot the complainants "(Red Army soldiers, p. 651). As subsequently stated the Red Army soldiers V. A. Bakmanov and P. T. Karamnokov who returned from Polish captivity, the selection of prisoners for execution near Mlava was carried out by the Polish officer "by person", "more representative and cleaner dressed, and more cavalrymen." The number of persons to be shot was determined by a French officer (pastor) present among the Poles, who said that 200 people would be enough. (Red Army men. S. 527).
  13. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 7 November 2015 10: 31 New
    -14
    The Poles simply didn’t make much atrocities. A huge number of Red Army soldiers voluntarily transferred to the Poles, about 25 thousand joined the units that fought on the side of Poland - the army of General Stanislav Bulak-Balakhovich, the 3rd Russian army of General Boris Peremykin, the Cossack brigade of Alexander Salnikov, the Cossack brigade of Vadim Yakovlev and the Republic of Ukrainian People . They continued to fight against the Red Army on their own, even after the armistice.
    There were, of course, sadists who do not feed bread - let them mock helpless people. They were on both sides. By their atrocities, for example, the Budyonnovtsy became famous.
  14. Georg Shep
    Georg Shep 7 November 2015 11: 33 New
    +6
    The author, you should not use fotovoverty: on the first photo of the Soviet prisoners of war in German captivity 1941 year. Both caps, and overcoats, and the quality of the photo itself is immediately evident. Still, the difference is more than twenty years. Submission of materials should be what it really is.
  15. choice
    choice 7 November 2015 11: 55 New
    +3
    in addition to dirty tricks against Russia and our people there is nothing to expect from the Poles.
  16. dvg79
    dvg79 7 November 2015 12: 43 New
    +2
    It is necessary to establish all the victims of Polish concentration camps and demand compensation from the psheks. Enough for the state to hush up the facts of the Russian genocide, for example, in Finland after gaining independence.
  17. Supervised
    Supervised 7 November 2015 13: 03 New
    +3
    We Russians have a very poor quality, we forgive everyone a lot. How many times has Russia (USSR) saved Polish statehood, and not only Polish, but what in return ?!
  18. An64
    An64 7 November 2015 13: 53 New
    +3
    "The topic of Polish prisoners of war in Katyn pops up in Poland whenever it comes to its relationship with Russia. But it’s not accepted to remember the fate of about two hundred thousand Red Army soldiers who ended up in Polish concentration camps ..."

    It’s not accepted there. And we have? With us, who recalls the captured Red Army men, how many and where are the monuments to them? First of all, you need to revive your memory, and then demand from others ...
    It is disgusting when historical facts are manipulated, and it does not matter who, and it does not matter in which country. But you need to start with yourself!
  19. Basil50
    Basil50 7 November 2015 13: 57 New
    +4
    The atrocities of the Poles are so monstrous that a normal person cannot believe such a thing. But that was all. Polish identity is generally unique, it fits perfectly with the usual criminal ideology. Just like the robbers, grabbed by the hand, DEMAND lawyers and be sure to have a humane attitude, and do not care what they did before they sadistically killed everyone they reached out to. During WWII, the Poles surrendered to the Germans so quickly that they later looked for at least something heroic, and invented a whole bunch of exploits, including * Westerly *. But then they served the Nazis with all zeal, but as soon as the Germans surrendered, in Poland they brutally destroyed the German families of women, children, the disabled, in general all, well, at the same time, the Jews who survived in the concentration camps, and in general all * not Poles *.
    The creation of Poland is a complete joke. Revolutionary esser officer of the Austrian army, led by the Austrian * volunteers *, with the help of the German occupation administration creates the Republic of Poland, appoints himself a dictator. As soon as France transfers Polish volunteers from America to Poland and provides weapons and loans, the Poles attack SOVIET RUSSIA without declaring war.
    Here are just manifestations of this miscarriage of the Entente is very bloody. State sadism in relation to * not Poles * is again being introduced into the consciousness of Poles.
  20. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 7 November 2015 15: 28 New
    -4
    Quote: Gromobik
    On the basis of what did you decide so?

    Read the wikipedia article carefully

    Quote: Gromobik
    Reliable sources available at the moment allow us to state that at least 157 thousand Red Army soldiers were captured by the Poles during the war ”...

    Look how. We open the collection "The signature stamp removed"
    Table 8 (p. 28-29) "Losses of personnel of the fronts for 1920" Missing, captured:
    53.805 people on the Western Front
    and 41.075 people on the Southwestern Front.
    Who else did the vile Poles manage to capture?
    1. sevtrash
      sevtrash 7 November 2015 15: 49 New
      +2
      Quote: Gromobik
      Look how. We open the collection "The signature stamp removed"

      Why does it drive like that? You quote Matveev, then no. And the place was changed.
      If you bring the collection "The secrecy stamp removed", please indicate the author and compare with Matveyev.
    2. V.ic
      V.ic 7 November 2015 16: 14 New
      +2
      Quote: Gromobik
      Article in wikipedia read carefully

      "he is with name this lays down he with name this rises ... "(source of the film" Operation "Y" and other adventures of Shurik. "Of course for Svidomo and" Wiki "= the Bible ...
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 8 November 2015 23: 38 New
        0
        The Poles did not hesitate to grab people on the street and robbed of declaring them prisoners of war. Therefore, the number of prisoners of war was much more than all the Red Army in Ukraine at that time. Among the prisoners of war, the Poles did not take into account women, since they were destroyed immediately and in the most sadistic ways. So the Nazis did later.
  21. python2a
    python2a 7 November 2015 18: 07 New
    0
    Remove the memorial in Katyn!
  22. Raider
    Raider 7 November 2015 20: 32 New
    +3
    Sometimes our tolerant attitude, such as indifference is now called, surpasses all conceivable limits to its history. Passing every century we step on the same rake. IMHO, in the history of the Poles it has been rooted for centuries (like the Japanese, Chinese, etc.) that part of their land is in Russia, and in the blood, that Russian enemies. And so from generation to generation. When we are strong, they are, at best, our bad friends; in a weak state, they are ready to gulp their throats. THEY UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE OF STRENGTH, WESTERN EUROPE COUNTED AND CONSIDERS US PEOPLE OF THE SECOND GRADE. The same Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, this is the story of betrayal?!? !!! If they do not love us, why try to make them love us? Why repeat the story over and over? Giving them leniency, we humiliate ourselves, and most importantly, our ancestors, who throughout the history of Russia fought with Poland. Here only: "... first money then chairs!". Otherwise nothing, no kindred relationship. Will you give it or not will it! They are not worth such attention to themselves. Tough political and economic course. Until after 5-6 generations they begin to understand that offending Russia is painful !!! Good luck to everyone!
  23. kvs207
    kvs207 7 November 2015 21: 01 New
    +3
    In total, up to 1919 thousand Russian prisoners of war were killed in Poland in 1921-80, according to various sources.
    And still, Soviet.
    1. alleksSalut4507
      alleksSalut4507 9 November 2015 01: 28 New
      0
      apart from the Russians who left post-Russia, thinking that they would be saved. The balts and the beaches hollowed everyone in the gateways, ripping open and there were no shelters. Add 300 thousand, if not more. and the organizers, who invented the dullar, let them boil in boilers.
  24. alleksSalut4507
    alleksSalut4507 9 November 2015 01: 19 New
    +1
    we just have to remember the vile kidneys. GLORY to the fallen!
  25. Ded_smerch
    Ded_smerch 9 November 2015 07: 26 New
    0
    Quote: Maaslo Sallonen
    Have the bastards ever repented of their own free will?

    Comrade, did I really write that I would of my own free will? Demand through the Hague court and let the case drag on but needles are added to the ass of the couples.
  26. palm
    palm 9 November 2015 23: 26 New
    0
    "konarmia" "konarmeysky diary" babel isaac emmanuilovich - a story about the campaign of the red army in Poland