Military Review

Trojan War: ships and chariots

106
In Homer's Iliad, two very important vehicles are constantly mentioned. These are ships and chariots. Ships perform an exclusively transport function. No naval battles with their participation does not occur. The army of Achaeans precisely on the ships reaches the shores of the Troas. Moreover, these ships themselves are small in size, which is proved by the fact that they are standing on the shore, backed by logs. These ships are described by Homer as black-necked, that is, having a tarred hull. In the middle of the vessel there is one mast, which has one straight sail and, moreover, it is also set in motion by oars. Rowing is not slaves, but the crew members themselves, and they are also warriors.



Replica "Argo".

As is known, there is a fresco depicting a ship of the Minoan era. True, this time is “long” before the Trojan War, but technology then developed slowly. The example of Tour Heyerdahl was also contagious here, so here, four years before the Olympic Games in Athens, the Maritime Museum of Crete suggested creating a copy of the Minoan ship and carrying the torch with the Olympic flame on it. He also organized the financing and, in fact, the construction of the ship. The Greek Ministry of Culture also supported the initiative, the scientific part of the project was decided to be developed by specialists of the local research institute NAUDOMO, which means “Institute of Ancient Shipbuilding Research and Technology”, and work began. A team of enthusiasts headed by Vice-Admiral Apostolos Curtis, who analyzed all the available information about the courts of the XV century BC, also gathered there. er It includes not only specialists in the field of naval stories, but also literature, geography, computer technology, modellers and experienced reenactors.

They decided to call the vessel “Minoa” and build it on Crete at the old Venetian shipyard. It is believed that the death of the Minoan civilization was the result of a catastrophic volcanic eruption near the modern island of Santorini: all of Crete was covered with ashes, a giant wave formed after the explosion of the volcano, reached the shores of neighboring Crete and washed away both the city and the village, and it also destroyed the legendary Minoan fleet . Rescued Minoans could not recover from the consequences of this cataclysm. Well, and then, at the beginning of Crete, and then on other islands, scientists found traces of a unique Minoan civilization. As for the island of Santorini, here archaeologists have found many beautiful colored wall paintings, which also included “sea scenes”.

These murals were processed on the computer with which the computer models of the Minoan epochs were created. As a material for the construction of affordable Minoans, chose a cypress that has the hardest and resinous wood. All technological processes and stages of construction of the Minoan ship tried to pre-study on its computer ZD-model. At the same time, according to calculations, the ship’s hull had to be shaped into a drop so that it experienced the least resistance to wind and waves. The length of the unirems, and that is how the Greeks called such ships, which had only one row of oars, without a deck, with straight sails and a crew of rowers from the 22, was to be 17 m, and its width was only 4 m.

To begin with, a group of experienced modellers from the Maritime Museum of Crete produced a smaller copy of the future ship on a scale of 1: 5 and also from cypresses, only smaller. And then the team, armed with double-edged axes, saws, hand drills and other tools - copies of archaeological finds, began to manufacture the vessel.

Trojan War: ships and chariots

Reconstruction of the Achaean Ship (Type VI), performed by Peter Connolly.

Its keel was made of a cypress trunk of 22 length, m, with a bent up stem and a stern stem. The hull itself was “sewed” from boards laid on the sides of the keel and tied with ropes. Only after this, frames were placed inside the casing, cut from whole cypress trees, bent with the help of collars and ropes as well as the keel. The casing was waterproofed with a mixture of resin and grease. In addition, the casing was covered with several layers of well-tarred fabric, and after a year the works on the ship were completed.


The model of a bronze age trading ship (around 1150 BC), made on the basis of a “ship from Bodrum” raised from the bottom of the sea.

1 December 2003, he came out of the dock, he was given a name, consecrated and raised the national Greek flag and pennants. It turned out that such a design of the vessel allowed him to "breathe" on the waves, and the upturned and sloping stem allowed to approach the gentle shores, where it could be easily pulled out of the water. The anchor was a stone with three holes for tying the rope and two horns of the stakes. In the very center, there were placed narrow transverse benches for rowers and an oak mast with a wing for a sail made of thick wool fabric. The Minoa was supposed to sail in the same way as the Minoan ships sailed: from one island to another, without leaving a great distance from the coast, as the ancient navigators did. It was necessary to spend the night or wait out bad weather in the ports along the way. The crew of the ship was made up of strong young people 24, sharing equally to row one by one. The speed at the rowing course was the 2,4 knot, and at the oars and with a raised sail - the 3,2 knot.

The team was first trained to row, after which 29 on May 2004, this replica set sail, and on June 24 arrived in the port of Piraeus, where other replicas of ancient Greek ships also gathered and where they all took part in the Olympic cultural program.


"Minoa" in the museum in Chania.

Well, after the Olympics, he was exhibited in the same Venetian dock of the city of Chania, in the Museum of the Minoan ship, and a branch of the Maritime Museum of Crete, where the Minoa is still today.

Then a replica of the later and larger Argo was built, which, in general, also confirmed the expectations of its creators. That is, this ship also had a good seaworthiness and went well both at the oars and under the sail. Interestingly, according to legend, the crew of the Argo coincided with the number of people who could fit and work on this ship. So, reading Homer, and knowing this indicator, you can try to at least roughly calculate the number of Greeks who sailed to Troas.

Well, they obviously brought the chariots with them, like horses, then collected them and ... gave them to their leaders, who rode on them onto the battlefield, laden with bronze armor. So they saved forces, and besides, they had a supply of spears for throwing and arrows for bows. Fighting chariots, similar to those that were played between the Hittites and the Egyptians had no place here. There were very few Greeks, Achaeans and chariots, and horses, to act in isolation from the main forces of his troops.


Warriors on a chariot with darts in their hands. The image on the vessel of Tiryns.

As for their device, outwardly, they are not much different from the Egyptian. Apparently, this is such a “trend” at that time. Two wheels with birch rims (why there is no birch, but that is exactly birch), a light fence at belt level, a drawbar for two horses and a harness that allowed them to harness them into this chariot - that's all.


Mycenaean chariot. Modern reconstruction. (From the book: Fields N. Bronze age war chariot. Oxford: Osprey (New Vanguard series No. XXUMX). 119.)

True, not a single Mycenaean chariot has reached us (unlike the Egyptian ones), but there are plenty of drawings, so that it most likely is.


Charioteer and warrior wearing boar’s canine helmets, reconstruction of a 13th-century fresco from Pylos. BC.
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  1. Yarik
    Yarik 15 October 2015 06: 33 New
    +1
    The length of the unirem, and this is what the Greeks called such ships ....

    In "military-historical jokes" Gergiy Kostylev is well written about uni-, bi-, three_, ... deciremes. I recommend.
    1. War and Peace
      War and Peace 15 October 2015 12: 35 New
      +2
      The length of the unirem, which is what the Greeks called these ships,


      "unirema" - this is not in ancient Greek, but in Latin, Homer, for example, did not say "unirema" or galley (also Latin), but called so SHIPS and SHIPS.

      Unirema - (Latin uniremis) - a rowing warship with one row of oars (in relation to the Roman fleet - the same as the galley.

      http://www.onlinedics.ru/slovar/his/u/unirema.html
    2. War and Peace
      War and Peace 15 October 2015 13: 17 New
      +2


      These chariots, I have already said that these types of "ancient" chariots do not stand up to criticism, all this comes from the fake tomb of Tutankhamun, and these "frescoes" are supplemented and expanded by contemporary artists with a "developed sense of beauty".
      Chariot - APMA -APMA (GRECH) - maybe ARBA? The chariot is the word Russian KOLO -sonse, wheel-circle. In Latin CIRCUM. In general, the etymology is suspicious, as always.
      That kind of chariot with thin frames and wheels is still okay — such a hanger can travel a hundred meters along a good road during the parades of Greek leaders or pharaohs, but what’s most incredible is ALL FOUR SPOKES on the reconstructions. It is precisely four knitting needles that is the INTRODUCTION TO MISCLEMENT, this cannot be, because it can withstand the weight of a warrior with a weapon with armor, and two times during reconstructions - FICTION.
      Here is a view of the chariot excavated in Bulgaria in 2011. It can be seen that the number of spokes is much larger and the wheel itself is thicker.
      Moreover, this "chariot" has questions, there are FOUR wheels, maybe it was a DOUBLE CHARIOT? but this is just closer to reality, such a chariot could already be more practical, and therefore be military, and not ceremonial ...
      1. Spnsr
        Spnsr 22 October 2015 13: 02 New
        0
        Quote: War and Peace
        much bigger and the wheel itself is thicker.
        Moreover, this "chariot" has questions, there are FOUR wheels, maybe it was a DOUBLE CHARIOT? but this is just closer to reality, such a chariot could already be more practical, and therefore be military, and not ceremonial ...

        more like a Chapaev’s cart! laughing
      2. Bahmut
        Bahmut 17 January 2019 00: 27 New
        0
        Not Russian but Slavic.
    3. War and Peace
      War and Peace 15 October 2015 17: 13 New
      0
      about the reconstruction of galleys tworemes, triremes, fourremes and tenders. Yes, Kostylev in his article made me wonder how it could be that multi-tiered galleys would take place in the fleets of ancient states, and in our time no one built such galleys. If you can build a multi-tiered galley itself, for example, modern Olympia, then making oars is an impossible thing, everything turns out to be very heavy. And then the question arises, whom did the tradition want to deceive? people? people can be fooled, probably 200 years we were hung up with noodles about "antiquity", but when a simple question arises, HOW DOES IT WORK? these armchair inventors-julvern can either include a fool or shyly keep silent about the story.
      Academic history has already abandoned the TATAROMONGOL IGA, and DR.GRECIA AND DR.RIM are in turn ...
      the modern Olympia trireme built in Piraeus in 1985, of course looks similar, but it’s oars, but by the eye it’s clear that at least the oars have blades FROM OTHER MATERIAL. Everything is done so that slaves in the galleys laughing not overworked from overwork ...
      1. ICT
        ICT 15 October 2015 19: 08 New
        +3
        Quote: War and Peace
        l FROM OTHER MATERIAL


        I remember once in a ship from seal hides to America they sailed, so there a manual pump stood for pumping water and they also scolded them, so they said find what they pumped the water out of. we will put it, and let it be as it is.
        1. kalibr
          15 October 2015 19: 40 New
          +3
          Upstairs in the article two photos. All replicas are made of wood. People considered it an honor to show the history of their country at the Olympics. The number of scum in the country per capita man that - judging by itself? But the feeling of pride for their country is also inherent in the Greeks, maybe even more than us, since the country is small, throwing garbage bags is more difficult. And you can enter the museum and touch it. Experts point out that the stern is not so peculiar. And that's all ...
      2. Glot
        Glot 15 October 2015 19: 09 New
        +2
        Oh, the circus has arrived again. laughing

        In his article, Kostylev made me wonder how it could be that multi-tier galleys would take place in the fleets of ancient states, and in our time no one has built such galleys. If a multi-tiered galley itself can be built, for example, modern Olympia, then making oars is an impossible thing, it will turn out to be very difficult.


        Yes, indeed, and why in our time the fleet does not use triremes? laughing
        Are the oars heavy? And someone weighed them, because they’re not building a trireme today ... Or is this one, built in the photo, floating? Or is it plastic? laughing
        1. kalibr
          15 October 2015 19: 29 New
          +1
          I was in the Maritime Museum of Barcelona and there I saw a remake of the Real Gallery - the flagship of Don Juan with Lepanto. There are paddles according to the drawings of that time, the benefit of all is preserved and the decor. By the way, I wrote about it - there will be material ... And there everything is wooden, gilded ...
      3. marline
        marline 15 October 2015 19: 34 New
        +4
        Slaves in the galleys. On the triers on the oars sat free citizens. And on the third row there were the most kazyr places with the biggest salary.
        And yes, questions related to oars were dealt with in detail a hundred years ago ... And somehow everyone came to the conclusion that everything is quite possible.
        And also, did you know that British scientists have proved that a bumblebee cannot fly ??? : D
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  2. tanit
    tanit 15 October 2015 06: 44 New
    +2
    But where did the Trojan fleet go? After all, was it ?. But - he did not fight, was not captured by the Achaeans, he did not even leave any images after himself.
    1. kalibr
      15 October 2015 07: 35 New
      +1
      The story is silent about it!
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 15 October 2015 08: 00 New
        +2
        Correct, Homer ... is silent ...
        1. ICT
          ICT 15 October 2015 08: 04 New
          0
          Quote: parusnik
          Correct, Homer ... is silent ...


          but history, what does it say? (what fantasy know wink )
          1. tanit
            tanit 15 October 2015 08: 18 New
            0
            Virgil in his, as it is now called - "fanfic" according to Homer wrote about Trojan ships .. But he is fanfic in antiquity, fanfic request
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 15 October 2015 07: 46 New
      +1
      By the way, yes, the city is on the coast, which means that in the city or nearby there should be a city port, and there is a fleet.
    3. Riv
      Riv 15 October 2015 08: 50 New
      +6
      With high probability, Troy did not have its own navy. The city lived in commerce. In the future, the same situation will be repeated in Athens before the Persian Wars. That is, there were many merchant ships, but there were a lot of merchants, first: they still need to be put together in a heap, and secondly: they are more suitable for landing operations and the transfer of troops. Actually the Greeks did this. They gathered merchant ships as much as they could, plunged and sailed to Troy. No one was going to fight at sea. In general, the navy is a very expensive pleasure and to build warships just like that, in reserve, at that time no one would.

      The Athenians then also had to straighten out the situation urgently and build ships specially adapted for naval combat. However, there would be no happiness ... For the Persians, the appearance of maneuverable diplomatic missions in immeasurable quantities was a fatal surprise near Salamis.
      1. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn 15 October 2015 09: 01 New
        +4
        A rich trading port city ... I did not have my own navy ... It seems to me or I'm not a very smart person (more capacious and short was deleted) if I believe this? But what about the control of trade corridors, the fight against pirates and so on and so forth? Until the suppression of claims of neighbors?
      2. Glot
        Glot 15 October 2015 09: 48 New
        +2
        With high probability, Troy did not have its own navy.


        Engage in trade and not have a fleet?
        Some kind of nonsense ...
        To control a large sea trade route and, again, not have a fleet, in particular a military one?
        Again does not add up.
        And again, they left Troy on ships.
        So, they had a fleet. Both commercial and military. Perhaps even most likely that it was not big but was unequivocal.
        1. Riv
          Riv 15 October 2015 10: 07 New
          +2
          You, apparently, are not aware that the warship is different from the merchant ship? Moreover, fighting as a merchant is more difficult to use than a merchant as fighting. The capacity is not the same, the team is redundant, and so on. At the merchant, you can deploy the sail and sail slowly. A dozen people on oars, if necessary, are also enough. A warship must use all the oars that it has. You can put two or three rowers (in the middle part) on the oar, if the design allows, and at full speed the deployed sail will even slow down. It is all the more dangerous to disband squadrons. In fact, this will mean the end of the navy.

          That is, the military fleet in peacetime is a dead weight for the already weak economy of the Bronze Age country. Actually, I know of only one example of a purely military use of the fleet in the Ancient World: Crete. But the Cretans collected tribute from all over the coast and the Midases could afford it. In addition, the Cretan fleet successfully fought against pirates, so they willingly paid for the "roof".
          1. Glot
            Glot 15 October 2015 10: 14 New
            +4
            You, apparently, are not aware that the warship is different from the merchant ship?


            No, apparently you are not good at what you write about.
            Once again, For you I will repeat what I wrote above.
            Troy controlled a major trade sea route.
            And now the question:
            - To exercise control over groups of merchant ships, protect them from pirates (and they were), collect from them (and this is not a weak part of Troy’s income) it was better to pay what kind of ships, military or merchant?
            The answer is obvious, that under sail, that on oars. tongue
            So the Trojans had both merchant ships and warships.
            And their number is a question. I think not very big.
            1. Riv
              Riv 15 October 2015 10: 30 New
              0
              You ask stupid questions and you have some kind of ideas. Ships and now in case of danger go in convoys, and then the danger was constant. Merchants did not wander alone. Pirates, speak? Well, you can somehow on occasion take on board the merchant, when around a dozen more of the same. Who else will take someone ... At the same time, your goal is pushing off the oars with all its might and it has no purpose to capture your ship, so everything that can burn flies to your ship. Of course, piracy did exist, but they also had to go to sea not alone, and even with an overwhelming advantage in the number of teams. Many then could afford it? Before piracy became truly profitable, thousands of years remained.

              And again I tell you: sailing a rowing vessel at full speed only interferes. It can be raised if there is nowhere to hurry and the wind is fair, but if you need to go on oars, and even against the wind, then it must be removed. This is the main reason that the galleys lasted so long in the fleets: maneuverability. The wind does not prevent a rowing vessel from moving where it is needed. And dealers from galleys refused a long time ago, probably before the new era.
              1. Glot
                Glot 15 October 2015 10: 37 New
                +2
                You ask stupid questions and you have some kind of ideas.


                No, rather you are not in the subject at all. So, google fast + yours, insert the wrong arguments. That's all.
                Everything is clearly shorter. laughing
                1. Riv
                  Riv 15 October 2015 10: 39 New
                  -2
                  You wrote there that "it seems to you that you are not a very smart person." I must upset you. It doesn't seem to you.

                  (Here he wrote and directly rejoiced for himself ... What a syllable! Homer is resting.)
                  1. Glot
                    Glot 15 October 2015 10: 47 New
                    +4
                    You wrote there that "it seems to you that you are not a very smart person." I must upset you. It doesn't seem to you.


                    Well, I will upset you. I do not consider myself too smart. So that ... laughing
                  2. cth; fyn
                    cth; fyn 15 October 2015 11: 33 New
                    0
                    The digging was not counted, you agreed that the fleet was, but could not explain where it was, I recall that several policies came against Troy.
                    Policies towards hostile policies could also be engaged in piracy, in addition, Troy interfered with many, because of which, in fact, the conflict broke out.
                    What prevents pirates from stumbling to work more efficiently? Any action gives rise to opposition and, as a result, the navy to cover trade from a group of pirates.
                    Troy fought and the abduction of Tamara was at the signing of a peace or something very similar, therefore the fleet should have been with Troy of a military standard, moreover, policies generally fought with each other all the time. The Greeks had a lot of civil wars.
                    Although perhaps I look from the point of knowledge and what was not logical for me was logical.
                    1. Riv
                      Riv 15 October 2015 17: 33 New
                      0
                      Tamara ??? Have you been a psychiatrist for a long time?
                    2. Riv
                      Riv 15 October 2015 17: 33 New
                      -1
                      Tamara ??? Have you been a psychiatrist for a long time?
                      1. cth; fyn
                        cth; fyn 16 October 2015 05: 56 New
                        +1
                        Those. besides tamara you have nothing to complain about? and if you find fault with such an insignificant trifle, then I am guilty, because you have nothing to object to the matter and you begin to find fault already on the decoration of the syllable irrelevant.
                        and Tamara came from the demon that I am reading right now.
                      2. Riv
                        Riv 16 October 2015 06: 23 New
                        0
                        Yeah ... I get it. Also re-read Captain Blood's Odyssey. Refresh your pirate knowledge. :)
                        Funny logic: "Troy should have had a fleet, but it didn't show itself in any way, but still MUST!"
                      3. cth; fyn
                        cth; fyn 17 October 2015 20: 15 New
                        0
                        amendment, Homer kept silent about him. And again, no counter arguments to my point of view.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. Glot
            Glot 15 October 2015 10: 45 New
            +2
            Before piracy became truly profitable, thousands of years remained.


            Another stupid thing!
            Pirates were always there, and both the Greeks and later Rome fought with them.
            I don’t remember exactly which of the Romans even received an award for the fight against pirates who tormented the trade sea routes. The whole island and parts of the coast in some places were simply teeming with pirates.
            I already wrote to you once, learn the history on Google and books from the series "In 5 minutes about everything", and in more depth.
            He had no pirates ... laughing laughing laughing
            Once the Cilician pirates even captured Caesar, and the Eupator hired them at all in their battles !!!
            1. Riv
              Riv 15 October 2015 10: 59 New
              0
              And you do not bother to google, in about a year when the pirates captured Caesar? The Trojan War by that time seems to have passed long ago.
              Everything in your head mixed up ... :)
              1. Glot
                Glot 15 October 2015 11: 27 New
                +1
                And you do not bother to google, in about the year the pirates captured Caesar?


                You want to say that there were no pirates then? laughing
                This is colloquially called:
                - Although * si in the eye, all God's dew. laughing
                Lord, this is just some kind of Fucker. laughing
              2. The comment was deleted.
            2. abrakadabre
              abrakadabre 15 October 2015 11: 44 New
              +1
              The Mediterranean Sea on a large scale cleared of pirates Gnei Pompeii.
              The sea was divided into "squares" and combed by the Roman Navy, section by section, with all the severity ... After which the Mediterranean piracy did not take on such proportions for hundreds of years.
          4. The comment was deleted.
      3. marline
        marline 15 October 2015 11: 52 New
        +2
        Quote: Riv
        You, apparently, are not aware that the warship is different from the merchant ship?

        IMHO at that time was no different. Like the Vikings later, I think the Achaeans and Minoans did not even know that the ships should be divided into trade and combat ... well, there was no riv then to enlighten them.
        Yes, and the same story with piracy:
        - A ship is sailing. The forward-looking man sees the village on the shore, but there are no men in it, they have gone hunting, in this case they are pirates.
        - A ship is sailing. The forward-looking man sees the village on the shore, and the men in it are fucked up, and all are some kind of evil, in this case they are honest traders.
        1. brn521
          brn521 15 October 2015 15: 55 New
          +1
          Quote: merlin
          IMHO at that time was no different. Like the Vikings later

          Nevertheless, the difference in functionality is noticeable. The warship is long, narrow, with a lot of oars and a large team. With boarding equipment, such as hooks and bridges. Trading - wide, with a specially equipped cargo platform and a minimum of crew.
          1. marline
            marline 15 October 2015 16: 30 New
            0
            Quote: brn521
            Nevertheless, the difference in functionality is noticeable. The warship is long, narrow, with a lot of oars and a large team. With boarding equipment, such as hooks and bridges. Trading - wide, with a specially equipped cargo platform and a minimum of crew.

            You are inattentive ... merchant ship no oars. Those. either it was pulled along the coast by ropes, or they sailed very slowly and carefully under a direct sail. In principle, this is probably a good vessel for safe waters, but unlike the same ship with high sides, this storm will not survive.
            And the main question: How many ships were there?
            In theory, if they were the main merchant ship, then they should be found up to thirty times more often. Why, then, does NASA associate everyone with an antique ship with a fun battle: unire, bireme, trireme.
            Yes, because they traded mainly as I wrote above.
            1. abrakadabre
              abrakadabre 16 October 2015 07: 32 New
              0
              So trade (often with a load) and are more often than military. What is the problem?
              Why, then, does NASA associate everyone with an antique ship with a fun battle: unire, bireme, trireme.
              Not at US, but at YOU. Combat antique - with the listed, civil antique - with completely different ships.
              1. marline
                marline 16 October 2015 08: 53 New
                0
                If you meant that
                [quote = abrakadabre] Wide, with a specially equipped loading platform and a minimum of crew. [quote]
                It means - it’s funless, then yes, only with me.
                [quote = abrakadabre] So trade (often with a load) and are more often than military. What is the problem? [Quote]
                What period ships? They don’t have oars?
                Let me explain my thought: among the Vikings: a warship - a dragcar, a merchant ship - knorr. Robbed both on those and on others, because of the fundamental difference between these ships did not have.
                1. brn521
                  brn521 16 October 2015 18: 11 New
                  +1
                  Quote: merlin
                  Let me explain my thought: among the Vikings: a warship - a dragcar, a merchant ship - knorr. They robbed both of them, because there was no fundamental difference between these ships.

                  Some researchers make a fairly noticeable separation. Long, narrow drakkars, with a low side and a little draft. Convenient for attacks, as they carry a large team, quickly move on oars, can come close to the shore. Invisible due to low side and removable mast. And pot-bellied knorrs with a big draft and a fortified cargo platform. They quickly acquired a tough set (a long dragcar that bends on the waves will generally fall apart under a serious load), and have developed a bow and stern decks. The skin has become rigidly attached to the kit. On fights, several boards adjacent to the keel were attached only to neighboring boards, so that the ship could bend normally in the waves. The mast was no longer removable, although its mount still resembled a similar one on a drakkar. Actually, I read this booklet about twenty years ago. It was quite interesting, the evolution of the local ships based on fossil samples was shown. Now, of course, I don’t even remember what it is called, but the sediment remained in my memory.
                  1. marline
                    marline 16 October 2015 18: 22 New
                    0
                    Here I am about the same ... It seems to be clear what for what ... but this is not a modern division for us into a merchant and navy, rather ships of the 2nd destination.
                2. abrakadabre
                  abrakadabre 20 October 2015 07: 51 New
                  0
                  Let me explain my thought: among the Vikings: a warship - a dragcar, a merchant ship - knorr. They robbed both of them, because there was no fundamental difference between these ships.
                  The fundamental difference was. They were not traded on dragrakars.
                  1. marline
                    marline 20 October 2015 08: 38 New
                    0
                    Quote: abrakadabre
                    Let me explain my thought: among the Vikings: a warship - a dragcar, a merchant ship - knorr. They robbed both of them, because there was no fundamental difference between these ships.
                    The fundamental difference was. They were not traded on dragrakars.

                    Is that true? religion did not allow? Those. if the jarl needed to swim to trade, did he change the dragcar to knorr? Do you understand correctly?
                  2. abrakadabre
                    abrakadabre 20 October 2015 09: 54 New
                    +1
                    Carrying capacity - do you know such a word? And the size of the team. A large team on an incompatible ship will literally and not figuratively gobble up all the profit from the trip - for allowance and payment for work. After all, the main goods from Norway are fish, blubber and others, completely unlike gold and similar products in terms of price-volume ratio.
                    Stop fooling around. Not to face an adult.
                    It is possible to take a passing load to the dragcar. Mostly compact and expensive, like in raids. But purposefully trade in it large volumes of relatively cheap goods ... fool
                  3. marline
                    marline 20 October 2015 12: 48 New
                    0
                    Quote: abrakadabre
                    Carrying capacity - do you know such a word? And the size of the team ... the main products from Norway are fish, blubber and others ...
                    It is possible to take a passing load to the dragcar. Mostly compact and expensive, like in raids. But purposefully trade in it large volumes of relatively cheap goods ... fool

                    You probably won’t believe it, but it’s not known for sure whether the Norwegian fishermen exported their products.
                    What did you trade? For example, Ibn Khordadbeh in 844 lists Scandinavian goods: "eunuchs, slaves, slaves, skins of beavers and martens and other furs." This can be transported in dragrakars, and if there are many slaves, then on knorr accompanied by a drakkara so that their Normans do not rob along the way.
              2. brn521
                brn521 20 October 2015 13: 07 New
                0
                Quote: abrakadabre
                They were not traded on dragrakars.

                It's just a matter of terminology. Where the loot is, there is the goods. Here they robbed, on the way swam to the traders, sold. Another thing is that such a "trade" cannot be systematic, and the volumes are not the same.
              3. marline
                marline 20 October 2015 13: 34 New
                0
                Quote: brn521
                Quote: abrakadabre
                They were not traded on dragrakars.

                It's just a matter of terminology. Where the loot is, there is the goods. Here they robbed, on the way swam to the traders, sold. Another thing is that such a "trade" cannot be systematic, and the volumes are not the same.

                Judging by the fact that they were engaged in robbery for a couple of centuries, it is quite a systematic character.
                As for the volumes, it’s now the life of the products is laid down and they quickly become morally old, and in those days, things were done conscientiously and they served generations, so large volumes were not required, but this, as you understand it, is in my opinion.
        2. Aljavad
          Aljavad 18 October 2015 04: 47 New
          0
          Combat antique - with the listed, civil antique - with completely different ships.


          "Antique" time came 500 years after Troy. And then they built all that assortment, uniremes, biremes, triremes.
          1. abrakadabre
            abrakadabre 20 October 2015 07: 53 New
            0
            Ships with combat contours, like a unir, etc. still appear on Cretan images. That is, centuries before the Trojan War. Like the characteristic of civil courts.
      4. brn521
        brn521 16 October 2015 17: 47 New
        +1
        Quote: merlin
        The merchant ship has no oars.

        There are always oars. The only question is the methodology for their application. In these puddles (Black and Mediterranean Seas) a ship without a backup drive is unthinkable. On one sail, and even direct, you can’t normally sail.
        Quote: merlin
        Why, then, does NASA associate an antique ship with a fun battle

        If we are talking about ancient Greek myths (this is not antiquity yet) - what is their content about? Not about profitable trade deals. So a team of militants is formed, packed into a warship and sent for adventures and booty.
        1. marline
          marline 16 October 2015 18: 18 New
          0
          Quote: brn521
          There are always oars.

          Where are they in the third photo above? (steering do not consider)
          Quote: brn521
          The only question is the methodology for their application. In these puddles (Black and Mediterranean Seas) a ship without a backup drive is unthinkable. On one sail, and even direct, you can’t normally sail.

          The Romans thought otherwise, but their sailing equipment was more serious. (The question is complex and requires a long consideration, this is so, briefly)
          Quote: brn521
          If we are talking about ancient Greek myths (this is not antiquity yet) - what is their content about? Not about profitable trade deals. So a team of militants is formed, packed into a warship and sent for adventures and booty.

          If it was only about them. Somehow I watched the program, studied the Roman ships found at the bottom of the sea, and was amazed that almost all of them were oar ships. And only 10 percent are gauls.
          1. brn521
            brn521 17 October 2015 18: 46 New
            0
            Quote: merlin
            Where are they in the third photo above? (steering do not consider)

            In the same place as the brigs, for example. Usually stacked alongside. Small vessels, such as brigs (by antique standards, this is the opposite, just some Titanic, up to 500 tons of displacement), if necessary, could move on oars. Large towed by their own boats. I repeat, without a backup mover in any way. Whatever sailing ship you take, even the most ancient, even modern.
            Quote: merlin
            The Romans thought otherwise

            Then it was necessary to create a suitable fleet. At least one on which tacks can be freely changed without torturing the legwork team.
            Quote: merlin
            Roman ships found at the bottom of the sea were studied, and he was amazed at the fact that almost all were oar ships. And only 10 percent are gauls.

            Well, knorr and brig are also formally gay.
            1. marline
              marline 18 October 2015 18: 18 New
              0
              Quote: brn521
              Quote: merlin
              Where are they in the third photo above? (steering do not consider)

              In the same place as the brigs, for example. Usually stacked alongside.

              You are confusing something ... The brigs have no oars, the brig is a purely sailing ship.
              Apparently you were confused by the brig "Mercury" - but just his oars were a distinctive feature. And, usually, if there are oars, then they are placed on the exposure of the model so that it can be seen.
              Quote: brn521
              Well, knorr and brig are also formally gay.

              Knorr, not formally, but a really funny ship.
              Why did you decide that the brig is fun? give proofs ...
            2. brn521
              brn521 19 October 2015 12: 22 New
              +1
              Quote: merlin
              You are confusing something ... The brigs have no oars, the brig is a purely sailing ship.

              I repeat, no matter what the sailing ship, it can not do without an alternative propulsion. Either the ship was equipped with oars, or was forced to rely on its own boats. Small ships, brigs, brigantines, schooners, etc. often equipped with oars. Especially if the sail passed along a complex fairway. Shores, narrowness and straits, places full of shallows, etc. If you wander in the ocean, then apparently you can get by with boats, like large ships.
              Quote: merlin
              Apparently you were confused by the brig "Mercury"

              Not at all embarrassed. I used to read about the use of oars on ships before Mercury.
              Quote: merlin
              And, usually, if there are oars, then they are placed on the model’s exposition, so that it can be seen.

              Nothing like this. Oars do not harmonize with loose sails, this is contrary to logic. And about how the modelers toggle around, trying to fix these oars somewhere in the traveling condition - for example, http://forum.modelsworld.ru/topic13549.html
              Quote: merlin
              Why did you decide that the brig is fun?

              At one time he read fiction on the subject.
              Quote: merlin
              give proofs ...

              This is not for me but for specialists, here is a topic, for example: https://www.shipmodeling.ru/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8525. But the links there, as far as I understand, are to Western authors, who, if they have translations, appear in such a rare and therefore expensive form: https://www.avito.ru/moskva/knigi_i_zhurnaly/kniga_mir_shhun._proishozhdenie_raz
              vitie_dizayn_i_380459791
              Quote: merlin
              Knorr, not formally, but a really funny ship.

              If a ship is sailing 99,9 (9)% of the time, then it is only formally fun. Here are the problems that arise when using oars on any fully-fledged ships: http://norse.ulver.com/articles/firks/3.html#32. Where do we see the justification for the construction of full-fledged galley rowing ships with a wide, flat and spaced out deck for rowers. As an illustration, the ship’s favorite from the Gokstad reenactors. http://norse.ulver.com/articles/firks/25.html There are no cans, ports for oars have no signs of wear. Regarding specifically Knorrs, here is http://norse.ulver.com/articles/firks/26.html. On the big knorr, more than 16m long, there are only 8 places for rowers. Will this go away on oars, especially with a load?
            3. marline
              marline 19 October 2015 16: 29 New
              0
              Well, I admit, you convinced me: all the ships of antiquity had mixed sailing and rowing weapons.
            4. brn521
              brn521 20 October 2015 15: 41 New
              0
              Quote: merlin
              Well, I admit, you convinced me: all the ships of antiquity had mixed sailing and rowing weapons.

              It was only about the fact that there are always oars, even on a sailing vessel with a tiny crew.
              And it is not antiquity that interests us. Antiquity came a whole epoch after the "catastrophe of the Bronze Age". And we have events around the time of this catastrophe. The situation there is a little different than in antiquity. The same "sea peoples", for example. I know of two options for their appearance. 1. They suddenly fell from the moon, along with excellent weapons and skills in shipbuilding and navigation. They were so cool that they simply trampled all the advanced states of that time into the ground. And then they suddenly fell almost into the Stone Age, since the supply channel from the moon was interrupted, and they themselves did not really know anything and did not know how. 2. These are small tribes that lived on the outskirts of the great states of that time. Trade was well developed at that time. The same Egypt, for example, exchanged grain for tin, bronze and even Hittite iron. It was unprofitable to carry it with your own transport. It was necessary to clear all the coasts from local tribes and set up their own trade transshipment bases there. But either it turned out to be too difficult, or the political environment was not conducive. So, apparently, they resorted to the mediation of coastal tribes, instead of sawing them out or assimilating them. Intermediaries ensured the delivery and safety of the cargo. They also ensured order and armed cover, negotiated with each other, jointly suppressed piracy. Of course, they took off the cream and grabbed for themselves the best weapons and armor that were in trade, became skilled in combat and navigation. But in fact, they remained primitive tribes, depending on the general established system. The tribes are small, there pieces of paper and words by themselves were of little value, authority and real strength were more valued. But then large states suffered a systemic crisis. It was most likely based on food shortages. In the same Egypt, the population grew, but the harvests remained the same or decreased. There was a lack of grain, trade decreased. Some of the merchants were left without work and instead of selling ships and weapons for a pittance, forgetting skills and using ordinary plowmen, they began to pirate - rob other merchants, but those were not enough to crush the outbreak of lawlessness on their own. The balance was broken, and trade finally came to naught. Then the tribes began to unite and carry out armed raids on large states. By themselves, they were nothing, they had almost no industry, their culture was primitive. When there was nothing to plunder, they, following the rest of the Mediterranean world, plunged for 400 years into the dark ages, in which no one even had any sensible writing.
            5. marline
              marline 20 October 2015 17: 05 New
              0
              Oh, you have bent ... Antiquity is worth considering for 2 reasons:
              1. Ships were built in antiquity, practically, according to the same technologies and the same "classes" (this can be judged by the images and arch. Finds).
              2. Based on paragraph 1, they were used in a similar manner, moreover, under similar conditions. (You can also similarly consider the use of Spanish Viking ships, which we did.)
              As for the causes of the Bronze Age catastrophe, I’m afraid, in order to discuss them, to discuss, to like, like a min. A new review article on IPM (better with a listing of the main reasons), because The reasons for IPM, in my opinion, are as many as the historians studying this time.
              As for what you wrote: item 1. - we do not consider, in view of the absurdity of consideration (we may have fallen, but we may have planned, neither is provable)
              item 2. in general, I believe the same, only there is one thing: between the ancient empires there were no empty spaces and cargo could be delivered by land:
              http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2015/645/lsag459.png
              Most likely the "peoples of the sea" are the remnants of the Mycenaean civilization + the peoples of western Anatolia (Trojans). Questions: who gouged them, why did the same collapse occur in Europe? Here I can not explain anything, not a historian, I have never been seriously interested in this issue.
            6. brn521
              brn521 21 October 2015 14: 34 New
              0
              Quote: merlin
              Ships were built in antiquity, practically, using the same technologies and the same "classes"

              I can imagine how the "peoples of the sea" are trying to drive up to Carthage in their kayaks :).
              The article describes in some detail only the primitive "Minoa", the body of which was sewn together with ropes. The rest is just pictures, which in the text are not even always in the subject. Here is a typical picture of the structure of an ancient ship's hull. This is no longer ropes, but a mountain of woodwork. almost perfect fit of parts, etc.
              Quote: merlin
              there is one thing: between the ancient empires there were no empty spaces and the delivery of goods could be carried out by land

              The population density is not the same. So, it’s more likely to distinguish between spheres of influence settled by large states among themselves. As for delivery by land, it is one thing to drag 12 t of tin. Another, when it is necessary in response to drag away some hundreds (or maybe even thousands) tons of grain. You reproach such cargo without a ship.
              However, here is an interesting resource on the topic. http://histseeship.com/ancient_ships.html There is a suspicion that in those days there were no full-fledged merchant ships that were handled by a small team. For example, Nineveh transports from 700g day pictures. Generally without a sail :). In general, interesting points. If we are sailing on a bad ship with a low side, in which the oars are mounted on a plane, then in any case you will have to drag a large team with you. In order for her to happen, she mastered pulling the ship ashore and securing it. Another point - the oars provide additional stability when sailing. In general, the figs will figure it out whether the grain was transported on ships, in what quantity and how much it cost when arranged in bronze, for example.
  • Aljavad
    Aljavad 18 October 2015 04: 44 New
    0
    With boarding equipment, such as hooks and bridges.


    The bridges were invented by the Romans a thousand years later. The Second Punic War.

    Odysseus and others had feluccas. For all occasions.

    Merlin is right.
    1. brn521
      brn521 18 October 2015 16: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: Aljavad
      The bridges were invented by the Romans a thousand years later

      These were specialized stationary devices, so massive that they affected the stability of the vessel. But this does not mean at all that until these times the crew and cargo were moved from and to the ship only by some mysterious jump-throwing method. Well, it’s clear that a combat ship needs a lot of bridges, so that when boarding, the advantage in the team was important.
      Quote: Aljavad
      Odysseus and others had feluccas.

      In those days, there were clearly no feluccas. And something similar to scows, most likely, was engaged in the transportation of bulky cheap goods, such as grain. But this business was not particularly necessary for the "peoples of the sea", they preferred values ​​and slaves, and seized food only for their own food. So it is unlikely that they used the "scows" of that time.
    2. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 20 October 2015 07: 58 New
      +1
      The Romans introduced the crow into mass use during the naval battle. Bridges in all their manifestations appeared along with ships of large sizes. For there is no other way to carry out convenient loading and unloading.
  • Aljavad
    Aljavad 18 October 2015 04: 34 New
    +1
    tribute from all over the coast and Midas could afford it


    Minuses. hi
  • Zai pali
    Zai pali 15 October 2015 16: 39 New
    -1
    Quote: Riv
    With high probability, Troy did not have its own navy.


    They attacked Rome several times, and almost successfully. Without a fleet?
    1. marline
      marline 15 October 2015 16: 59 New
      0
      Quote: Zai Pali
      They attacked Rome several times, and almost successfully. Without a fleet?


      Trojans attacked Rome ??? belay Give me a link.
    2. Aljavad
      Aljavad 18 October 2015 04: 53 New
      0
      Zai Pali SU October 15, 2015 16:39 ↑
      Quote: Riv
      With high probability, Troy did not have its own navy.

      They attacked Rome several times, and almost successfully. Without a fleet?


      Google the dating: "the founding of Rome" and "the Trojan War". Not according to Fomenko.
  • Turkir
    Turkir 15 October 2015 10: 21 New
    +1
    The Trojans had a fleet. After the defeat, they sailed to the West and founded the city of Rome.
    1. Riv
      Riv 15 October 2015 10: 41 New
      +1
      Yeah ... And the other part sailed north and founded Kyuyv.
      1. Uncle VasyaSayapin
        Uncle VasyaSayapin 15 October 2015 12: 44 New
        +2
        Kiev was already then. laughing
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Sergey Kuzovkov
    Sergey Kuzovkov 21 December 2017 15: 09 New
    0
    Troy was a trading city, and the end of the caravan routes from Mesopotamia. The fleet was unnecessary to her.
    And the threat of piracy is minimal.
  • ICT
    ICT 15 October 2015 07: 55 New
    0
    ships and chariots


    you read your thoughts, just yesterday I thought about it good
  • Yarik
    Yarik 15 October 2015 08: 31 New
    0
    tanit (3) KZ Today, 06:44 AM

    But where did the Trojan fleet go? After all, was it ?. But - he did not fight, was not captured by the Achaeans, he did not even leave any images after himself.

    He was taken to Britain by Aeneas and founded there by a couple. Ugh, not in England. And did Rome establish the future?
    1. tanit
      tanit 15 October 2015 08: 44 New
      +3
      Yeah, and the Roman poet wrote about this, years after 1000 with something after the end of the Trojan War. smile
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Riv
        Riv 15 October 2015 08: 54 New
        0
        Yeah ... Troy is being burned, and Aeneas, meanwhile, is heroically dumping with the fleet, although he could have thrown the same rowers into battle and it is still unknown whose victory would have been. In fact, there was no need to found anything in Italy. By that time, there were already colonies there, and the local population ran not in skins. Archaeologists guarantee this. In general, as Aeneas would say, having sailed to Italy: "Everything has already been founded before us."

        Speaking of birds ... Italy and Troy are on opposite sides of the Pelopones. Odyssey, who did not know, was a little closer home to swim. Maybe they really together dumped from under Troy and Odysseus for ten years, where the hell did he hang around, but quietly found something somewhere?
        1. Glot
          Glot 15 October 2015 10: 05 New
          +1
          In fact, in Italy there was no need to base anything. By then, there were already colonies


          And what colonies were there during Aeneas and Troy? smile
          Greek colonization in this, Western direction will be much later. Years of commercials in 500-600. wink
          1. Riv
            Riv 15 October 2015 10: 16 New
            0
            Terramare culture, for example. These are aliens from Europe, but they had trade with the Pelopones. From there, by the way, bronze items were taken out. Poseidonia was founded somewhere in the 8-10th centuries BC. Yes, a lot more. Italy was a very populated place.
            1. Glot
              Glot 15 October 2015 10: 34 New
              0
              Terramare culture, for example. These are aliens from Europe, but they had trade with the Pelopones. From there, by the way, bronze items were taken out. Poseidonia was founded somewhere in the 8-10th centuries BC. Yes, a lot more. Italy was a very populated place.


              Please study the topic.
              The first Greek colonies, it is approximately VIII BC., The events in Troy are XIII - XII centuries.
              What are the Greek colonies there? At that time there was still no Paestum, Sybaris, Poseidonia and other Acragantes with the Gel. laughing
              But Terramare is not the case at all.
              1. Riv
                Riv 15 October 2015 10: 57 New
                0
                Well, I’m saying: you don’t even remember what the conversation was about! The fourth time I explain to you: the colonies were not founded in the desert. Or will you deny that in Italy people lived a thousand years before the new era? It is quite prosperous. And colonization took place long before the Trojan War. Odyssey on Ithac, where did it come from? Born there. And his mom and dad? Mom is not local, she is the daughter of Autolycus, who lived in the area near Parnassus. Father is also not local, he is a mercenary from Athens, with Iason sailed to Colchis. And he, like his father, happens to Kefaleniya.

                What we have? Ithaca, it turns out, was itself a colony! Otherwise, why would its inhabitants choose an alien king? Surprise...
                1. Glot
                  Glot 15 October 2015 11: 23 New
                  0
                  Well, I’m saying: you don’t even remember what the conversation was about!


                  Yes, you are dashing off the topic. laughing

                  Let me remind you that you said:

                  In fact, in Italy there was no need to base anything. By then, the colonies were already there,


                  To which I answered you with a question, and which colonies are we talking about?
                  You answered:

                  Terramare culture, for example. Poseidonia was founded somewhere in the 8-10th centuries BC.


                  Thus, showing a simple ignorance of the topic, and even basic not knowing how to count.
                  Duplicate:
                  Please study the topic.
                  The first Greek colonies, it is approximately VIII BC., The events in Troy are XIII - XII centuries.
                  What are the Greek colonies there? At that time there was still no Paestum, Sybaris, Poseidonia and other Acragantes with the Gel.
                  But Terramare is not the case at all.

                  So it’s not worth moving out lurking the answer so that the topic is not concerned. laughing
                  It is clear that there was more than one wave of colonization. And these waves are also clear and marked.
                  PLEASE study the history of Greek colonization, then write. Good ?
                  And again for you I repeat. Colonization is not only the opening of new trade routes and factories, it is also new lands and new settlements for those who no longer have a place (literally) in the Metropolis. And it is clear that it’s not in the desert, but not for the sake of trade.
                  1. Riv
                    Riv 15 October 2015 14: 36 New
                    0
                    Damn ... I just pointed out that even Ithaca was a colony. And how many were in all over the Mediterranean and in the same Italy? Yes, like shit after a bath. Poseidonia in the 10th century BC founded, but it’s a city, and since what century did people live in that area? You specifically rested in the fact that it was Greece - the cradle of civilization, and the rest of the world was a bunch of barbarians. But this is not so. By the time of the Trojan War, Greece was not such a cradle, but it was a gathering of small kingdoms, constantly fighting each other with a ragged, impoverished population. Do you really think that this scourge of land was not enough? They did not have enough land, but like all real boys - dough and weapons. That's behind the dough and weapons and swam. And if the place turned out to be a bread place, they built a settlement and instead of robbing they switched to trade and market relations. Everything is simple.

                    And do not try to cover up the poverty of your mind by accusing others of ignorance. What is a Ukrainian habit? "And vi ... And you ... What do you call pyvo? .."
                    1. Glot
                      Glot 15 October 2015 15: 12 New
                      +1
                      And how many were in all over the Mediterranean and in the same Italy? Yes, like shit after a bath.


                      Whose?

                      Poseidonia in the 10th century BC founded, but it’s a city, and since what century did people live in that area? You specifically rested in the fact that it was Greece - the cradle of civilization, and the rest of the world was a bunch of barbarians.


                      What are you all about Poseidonia? Didn’t they google others? Yes and not in X but in VIII approximately. laughing
                      Where did I say that the rest of the world was a bunch of barbarians?
                      You really answer what they write to you.
                      I did not speak about the "cradle of civilization" either. In general, this is a generally accepted concept for the West. So, by the way. smile Although during the Greeks there were other civilizations.

                      Greece was not, but it was a gathering of small kingdoms, constantly fighting among themselves with a ragged, impoverished population. Do you really think that this scourge of land was not enough? They did not have enough land, but like all real boys - dough and weapons. That's behind the dough and weapons and swam. And if the place turned out to be a bread place, they built a settlement and instead of robbing they switched to trade and market relations. Everything is simple.


                      Yes, these tribes carried out expansion in different directions, who is arguing. And there were masters to rob, and chopped among themselves, and to trade and what. And yes, the movement of certain peoples is often associated precisely with the lack of land.
                      Well, about the "real boys", it will be you in your yard, among local drunks and punks, in this tone just broadcast about the Greeks and the Trojan War. The style is suitable, under the beer. There you will be applauded. laughing

                      And do not try to cover up the poverty of your mind by accusing others of ignorance.


                      Yes, I did not blame you for ignorance. It is so obvious that accusations of it simply do not make sense. laughing
                      I already told you, don’t learn the history of Google and five-page brochures, but for pivas. History it requires a deeper approach.
                      And then you talk nonsense to nonsense, really knowing nothing and conjecturing ignorance, plus flavoring everything with speeches in the style of "real boys". laughing
                      Laughter and more.
                    2. The comment was deleted.
              2. abrakadabre
                abrakadabre 15 October 2015 12: 00 New
                +1
                In fairness, it is worth noting that approximately the Trojan era just accounted for the expansion of the Phoenicians throughout the Mediterranean.
                So the small and large centers along the coast could not be missing. After all, the same Phoenicians expanded the supply of tin from Britain, which (supplies) began throughout Europe back in Cretan times (about 1600 BC). Given the fact that at that time, with rare exceptions, coasting, there were a lot of permanent intermediate stops, and therefore there were a lot of stable centers of trade along the coast. Especially with a very small average daily swimming distance.
                So there it was clearly not deserted along the shores. Just very poor in terms of historical finds of the corresponding period.
                1. Glot
                  Glot 15 October 2015 12: 22 New
                  +1
                  So there it was clearly not deserted along the shores. Just very poor in terms of historical finds of the corresponding period.


                  So no one claims that it was empty and deserted. And there were settlements, and trade, and so on.
                  The question is whose?
                  1. abrakadabre
                    abrakadabre 20 October 2015 08: 06 New
                    0
                    The question is that it is also difficult to establish something on such a densely occupied coast. Given the fact that not every meter of the coast is convenient for the foundation of a port colony. How Greek colonies were actually founded is a dark question. Whether from scratch a peaceful unloading. Either peaceful expansion with the displacement of the previous owners for the N-th number of years. Either a one-time armed seizure of a favorite small (or not small) item from the previous owners.
                2. The comment was deleted.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Turkir
          Turkir 15 October 2015 10: 45 New
          +1
          When in the West the Muscovite state was called simply Muscovy, this did not mean that it was limited to the city of Moscow.
          Apparently the same thing happened in Troy. Troy was not limited to the capital city.
          When taking fortress cities, there was always the possibility of a breakthrough of some of the defenders from the city. And it is unlikely that someone would pursue them during the sack of the city.
          Homer is an artist, not a contemporary of events and cannot be accurate in details of a political, historical or economic nature. But Homer's works will never stop reading. And what names have come down to us from the depths of centuries!
          The "Achilles Run" spit still exists on the Sea of ​​Azov.
          Take an interest.
          1. Zai pali
            Zai pali 15 October 2015 16: 48 New
            +1
            Quote: Turkir
            When in the West the Muscovite state was called simply Muscovy, this did not mean that it was limited to the city of Moscow.
            Apparently the same thing happened in Troy.


            No, then there were city states. Read Demosthenes.
            1. War and Peace
              War and Peace 15 October 2015 16: 53 New
              -1
              Quote: Zai Pali
              No, then there were city states. Read Demosthenes.


              was Rome only in Rome?
              1. Glot
                Glot 15 October 2015 19: 13 New
                +1
                was Rome only in Rome?


                Do you mean Rome as a city? Yes, he was in Rome. In the Republican and later in the Imperial. In the Roman Empire. smile
                But then the era of city-states already ceased to exist.
            2. War and Peace
              War and Peace 15 October 2015 16: 53 New
              0
              Quote: Zai Pali
              No, then there were city states. Read Demosthenes.


              was Rome only in Rome?
        4. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 15 October 2015 11: 51 New
          +2
          By that time, the colonies were already there, and the local population was not running in the skin. Archaeologists guarantee this.
          It’s strange. And in the previous articles of the cycle during the discussion, they accused all historians and archaeologists of a worldwide conspiracy to distort history. Even just yesterday. What a radical turn in just a day. Today, full trust ... What a frivolous you are in your theories.
          1. Riv
            Riv 15 October 2015 15: 25 New
            0
            This is what a fright me recorded in Fomenkovtsy? Justify.
          2. Riv
            Riv 15 October 2015 15: 25 New
            0
            This is what a fright me recorded in Fomenkovtsy? Justify.
      3. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn 15 October 2015 09: 13 New
        0
        moreover, gathered the WHOLE fleet and dumped, where is the logic?
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Aljavad
      Aljavad 18 October 2015 04: 59 New
      0
      But where did the Trojan fleet go? After all, was it ?. But - he did not fight, was not captured by the Achaeans, he did not even leave any images after himself.


      If the Trojans painted their ships, Schliemann ruined everything in the heat of excavations. And Homer described only the quarrel between the two Achaean "generals" and the capture of the city. The Troy fleet did not survive 10 years of the siege, so it is not mentioned.
      1. brn521
        brn521 18 October 2015 16: 07 New
        0
        Quote: Aljavad
        Troy’s fleet did not survive 10 years of siege, and is not mentioned.

        Exactly 10 years of the siege could only be survived thanks to the fleet, which was timely supplying supplies.
        1. Sergey Kuzovkov
          Sergey Kuzovkov 21 December 2017 15: 44 New
          0
          YOU ON THE MAP THREE SEE? THERE IS POSSIBLE AND WITHOUT FLEET THE SIEVE TO EXPERIENCE ALL THE FRONT ASIA THE rear.
          Quote: brn521
          Quote: Aljavad
          Troy’s fleet did not survive 10 years of siege, and is not mentioned.

          Exactly 10 years of the siege could only be survived thanks to the fleet, which was timely supplying supplies.
  • Riv
    Riv 15 October 2015 11: 42 New
    +2
    A free literary retreat, a little off topic ...

    Have you, comrades, read the Odyssey with the Iliad? By the eyes I see that few have overcome ... :) However, whoever reached at least the middle of each of the books, he realized that the books were written at different times and by different authors. See for yourself:

    In the Iliad, there are authentic looking descriptions of duels, weapons, heroes, ships ... In the Odyssey, there is nothing of the kind. The first describes a massive heroic massacre, the second - the adventures of a homeless person on autopilot. But the most important thing: attitude towards the gods. In the Iliad and the accompanying mythology, it is downright familiar. What is Paris's trial alone worth? The three goddesses did not find anything better than to appear in what their mother gave birth to some mortal and to promise him everyone. Like three goldfish in nature. Well, further under Troy ... Menelaus drove the spear to Areus himself, delicately speaking "into a muscle" and promised that next time he would kill him altogether. He is such a great Olympian - what a shame! Aphrodite receives a bread maker personally from Athena. The local god of the river is chasing after Achilles and (SUDDENLY!) Is not able to catch up ... In general, it is good that the gods are not chased away with pissing rags.

    And in the "Odyssey" the gods, on the contrary, slept off on mortals in full. Odysseus, God knows where, staggered for ten years, returned home a beggar. And in general, the heroes then ended badly. Ajax drowned. Agamemnon's wife with her lover in the bath stabbed and it is not a fact that the lover was hers. Menelaus regained his rather aged wife, who had probably already given birth to half a dozen children for Paris. I wonder where these children have gone afterwards?

    In general, different people wrote these books in different eras, for sure.
    1. andrew42
      andrew42 15 October 2015 12: 51 New
      +5
      Vividly so, and the topic is everything. Here, many would still recall that the so-called "Achaeans" were a purely predatory union of tribes. In fact, the robberish chieftains who captured the ancient fortress cities of the Balkan Peninsula. They did not build either Tiryns or Mycenae, but settled in those apartments that did not collapse during the robberies. An analogue is the “knights of the Lord” in Jerusalem. Hence all this “chanting” of the brute physical strength of the heroes of the Iliad, hence the manic thirst for power and the cruelty of Agamemnon, the dull “berserk” aggressiveness of the Ajax, the stupid thirst for glory and riches of Achilles, by the way, a classic mercenary, a sort of condottier from the end of the 2nd millennium BC. AD Artifacts of Achaean culture are primitive to the point - compared to the Minoans. Then the Achaean robbers wallowed in the internecine fights of the "sovereign seigneurs," and all the defeat was blamed on the shepherd Dorian tribes. Tracing paper with the destruction by Catholics of the Slavic culture of Central Europe, a thing of the past. Sparta, a perverted super-war state, is an Achaean relic in all its glory. Most likely, Troy was a fragment of the same Minoan civilization that could never become a self-sufficient state: three or four generations of famous Trojan kings, the “foundation” with the help of Poseidon, is clear evidence of the “creation of Troy as a state exactly after that” Doomsday "- Santorini disaster. But who knocked out the Achaeans from the Northern Black Sea region is a big question. "Koni Resa", not otherwise. The pit culture of burial mounds is the first era of Great Scythia.
      1. kalibr
        15 October 2015 13: 16 New
        0
        Very deep and sensible! Bravo!
    2. Aljavad
      Aljavad 18 October 2015 05: 11 New
      0
      Anyway, the heroes then ended badly.


      The moral of this fable: Do not drive the gods with pissed rags!

      To us, the professors just laid it out. The heroes became insolent, the gods pulled them in their own way. For the sake of this superidea Homer tried. Other topics are decorators.
  • Zai pali
    Zai pali 15 October 2015 16: 46 New
    +1
    One must understand the fact that all the people of that time were bandits. And thugs.
    1. ICT
      ICT 15 October 2015 19: 11 New
      0
      Quote: Zai Pali
      were gangsters. And thugs.


      "those were the dashing nineties, we survived as best we could" lol
    2. Glot
      Glot 15 October 2015 19: 17 New
      +2
      One must understand the fact that all the people of that time were bandits. And thugs.


      Well, not all. Some earned their living by trade, others - plowed, sowed, grazed, and still others yes - a sword in his hand, a helmet on his head and go either hire someone or seek out and select kingdoms with his friends.
      Here is Heracles known to all, I think there was an ordinary mercenary.
      1. Aljavad
        Aljavad 18 October 2015 05: 15 New
        0
        Here is Heracles known to all, I think there was an ordinary mercenary.

        Especially when I cleaned the stables ... winked
    3. marline
      marline 15 October 2015 19: 43 New
      0
      Quote: Zai Pali
      One must understand the fact that all the people of that time were bandits. And thugs.

      Not all, there were still slaves, getters, barbarians
  • Denimax
    Denimax 15 October 2015 18: 15 New
    +1
    Quote: War and Peace
    It is precisely four knitting needles that is the INTRODUCTION TO MISCLEMENT, this cannot be, because it can withstand the weight of a warrior with a weapon with armor, and two times during reconstructions - FICTION.

    These were the first samples, after which one more was added at intervals, a total of eight. At later put six spokes. The knitting needles were bent in wood in the shape of a V, so each spoke was glued from two longitudinal parts.
  • Yankuz
    Yankuz 15 October 2015 20: 14 New
    0
    Request to the author - please post at the beginning of the article (this or another) link to your previous articles on the subject of Troy. Articles are wonderful and very informative. Thank!
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 16 October 2015 06: 31 New
      0
      Kalibr is the author, go to him, click on all publications and enjoy.
  • ingenera
    ingenera 15 October 2015 23: 13 New
    +2
    I can’t talk about chariots, but I’ll argue about rowing ships. Imagine a rather large vessel with a long oar, on one end of which there is a blade, and on the other there are three rowers. Can you imagine the lever? The first (at the side) barely moves his hands, the second rowing more or less normal, and the third runs on the deck while rowing, trying to grab the end of the oar. The rowing roller seats were not yet invented. If this is a trireme, then it is still sadder. The second deck of the meter is one and a half higher, the oars are even longer, and you need to run for the oar already by two. Well, what is happening on the third deck you have already presented. And all this must be done amicably, in time and, preferably with a song, encouraging yourself and intimidating the enemies. Myths are myths, and mechanics must be taught.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 17 October 2015 10: 19 New
    0
    I read the following:
    In the II millennium BC --- Santorini supervolcano erupted three times. The most famous eruption in 1680 BC Then there were 10 executions of the Egyptians --- ALL of them can be explained "through" Santorini. The result is the Hyksos yoke in Egypt ...
    What is Atlantis according to Plato? After all, he was talking about different lands !!! The one that "is larger than Libya and Asia" is a real Atlantis in the Atlantic, and this is not on the topic now. "A plain with a perimeter of 10 stades" (000 stage = 1 meters) can also be understood in different ways. A rectangle of 200 × 400 km .--- this is ... the Adriatic Sea !!! And the "irregular" 600-gon with sides of 4 and 200,400,600 km .--- Tyrrhenian Sea !!! I myself worked with the map and I advise everyone the same. Plato, as you know, was a big fan of the "magic of numbers" ... And from the Tyrrenida to Africa is a stone's throw. And between them is Malta with its abandoned cities and dwarf elephants, which were descriptions of eyewitnesses in the Roman era !!! By the way, on the coast of the Adriatic there was a settlement --- Palaystene. So the Philistines --- from there, and only passed through Crete and Cyprus! And Maltida was an isthmus connecting Europe with Africa !! !!!
    Let us return to Crete and the Minoans. They died in the 3th century BC, that is, during the XNUMXrd eruption. Only then! Therefore, the cause of her death is internal decomposition and degradation. Recall Babylon, Rome, Great Britain ...
    And the volcanic ash of Santorini origin, dated 1680 BC, was found ... in California sequoia !!!
    Sources are walking around the house again. Maybe these are the "main problems of atlantology" ??? I promise to clarify and write these sources.
    Sincerely, Until tomorrow.
  • Sergey Kuzovkov
    Sergey Kuzovkov 21 December 2017 15: 50 New
    0
    Quote: andrew42
    Vividly so, and the topic is everything. Here, many would still recall that the so-called "Achaeans" were a purely predatory union of tribes. In fact, the robberish chieftains who captured the ancient fortress cities of the Balkan Peninsula. They did not build either Tiryns or Mycenae, but settled in those apartments that did not collapse during the robberies. An analogue is the “knights of the Lord” in Jerusalem. Hence all this “chanting” of the brute physical strength of the heroes of the Iliad, hence the manic thirst for power and the cruelty of Agamemnon, the dull “berserk” aggressiveness of the Ajax, the stupid thirst for glory and riches of Achilles, by the way, a classic mercenary, a sort of condottier from the end of the 2nd millennium BC. AD Artifacts of Achaean culture are primitive to the point - compared to the Minoans. Then the Achaean robbers wallowed in the internecine fights of the "sovereign seigneurs," and all the defeat was blamed on the shepherd Dorian tribes. Tracing paper with the destruction by Catholics of the Slavic culture of Central Europe, a thing of the past. Sparta, a perverted super-war state, is an Achaean relic in all its glory. Most likely, Troy was a fragment of the same Minoan civilization that could never become a self-sufficient state: three or four generations of famous Trojan kings, the “foundation” with the help of Poseidon, is clear evidence of the “creation of Troy as a state exactly after that” Doomsday "- Santorini disaster. But who knocked out the Achaeans from the Northern Black Sea region is a big question. "Koni Resa", not otherwise. The pit culture of burial mounds is the first era of Great Scythia.

    Yes you are right. The ruin and the pursuit of cultures.