Military Review

Armor warriors of the Trojan War. Helmets (part three)

61
"EARLY HELMETS"


We talked about swords and daggers, armor for the torso, and now it's time to get acquainted with the "armor for the head." Minoan and early Achaean helmets appeared in the Aegean Sea basin a very long time ago, in the 5000-1500 years. BC. Well, we can judge this on the basis of the findings of ceramics, frescoes, sculptures and other artifacts.

So, on stone amulets from Sesklo, dated between 5300 - 4500. BC Oe., we already see something like a helmet, made of leather and decorated with long horns. In the early Cycladic culture dating from the period 3200 - 2800. BC, you can find their images. And it seems that the conical helmet is presented in one of the symbols of the famous and still undeciphered Phaistos disk (2000 - 1700 BC). Heinrich Schliemann also found fragments of a helmet — the crest and the holder of the crest, but he did not find the surviving helmet.


Pitcher from the island of Cyprus. The peculiarity of the Cretan-Mycenaean culture of the Aegean Sea was the image on ceramics of fish and, in particular, octopus and cuttlefish. Archaeological Museum of Larnaca.

The Iliad mentions a helmet made of boar tusks, which was initially perceived as nonsense, although the description was detailed there. However, the boar tusks used as plates on the helmet (around 2000 BC) were found in Mariupol in Ukraine. This once again speaks in favor of the migration of the ancient Dorian tribes from the central and northern regions of Europe to Greece in 2000 - 1800. BC. These newcomers spread widely throughout mainland Greece and gradually mingled with the population that previously lived here.


“Kabany Helmet” from the tomb No.515 in Mycenae. National Archaeological Museum in Athens.

In Aegina (about 1800 BC), a very interesting boar fang helmet was found. Very interesting and challenging helmets made of boar tusks with large lugs are presented on a fragment of frescoes from Akrotiri, on the rhyton from the Knossos palace (about 1600 - 1550 BC) and on the rhyton from the burial No. XXNX in Mycenaea of ​​the same time.

How was the typical “boar's hat” of that time arranged? It is very simple: plates were cut out from the canines of the boar, fitted one to another and holes were drilled into them. The base of the helmet was a cap in the form of a cone or hemisphere, made of leather or felt. Bone plates were sewn on it in a circle, row by row, moreover, the directions of their bending were usually looked in different directions. The upper plates had a triangular shape, on top of the helmet was a round "button" made of ivory or bronze, or the comb holders were placed there.

Boar tusks were used because of the ease of processing. On the one hand, they are well cracked along. On the other hand, their external surface is very hard (unlike ivory). In the Iliad, Odyssey, the king of a small island, wore such a helmet. Homer gave a surprisingly accurate description of the helmets of that era:
I also gave a shield; on the head of the hero of the skin of ox
The helmet he wore, but without a comb, without plaques, called flat,
To whom the brow covers a blooming youth.
Chief Merion offered Odyssey and his bow and quiver,
He also gave the sword; on the same head Laertida put on a hero
Leather helmet; confused inside often by straps,
He was tight, and sticking out of the helmet outside.
White boar fangs, and here and there mourning
In the slender, beautiful ranks; in the middle, he was hit with felt.
This helmet - antiquity from the walls of Eleon was kidnapped by Autolycus ...

Armor warriors of the Trojan War. Helmets (part three)

Reconstruction of the "boar helmet" made by Peter Connolly.

A complex helmet required from twenty to forty boars, but boars at that time, apparently, were not a problem, they gave the skin, fangs, and meat!
A composite boar tusk helmet was also found in the tomb no. XXUMX in Dendra (see part two). Moreover, it is surprising that the armor in this burial is metallic, but for some reason the helmet is bone! Didn’t the owner of this armor have enough (what, what did they pay for it?) To buy a bronze helmet?


“Kabany helmet” (1450 - 1400 b. BC). Archaeological Museum of Heraklion.

Another very common type of helmet, most likely made of leather or felt, was a cap with metal discs sewn onto it. Or on the contrary - it is a metal helmet with bumps made for beauty.


Fresco from the palace in Pylos. And the question is: what kind of helmet is depicted on it? Bronze with "cones" (why are they?). With holes for airing (such unknown!) Or is it something else?

They took care of beauty at that time very much, because, judging by the frescoes and the images on the vases, the helmets at the same time were combs with feathers or horse tails, and in addition also horns! And now: let's think about the conditions under which it could be, and under what conditions it could not. Vikings had no horns on their helmets, as a blow by the sword on the strong horns on the helmet could have broken the warrior’s neck. The knights on their helmets had anything, but from papier-mâché, “boiled leather”, light wood and dyed plaster. The samurai of Japan had metal horns on their helmets, but they were arranged in such a way that a blow to the warrior’s sword was not dangerous for them.

Therefore, it is easiest to recognize that the ancient Mykene simply were not cut with swords (and they could not be cut with rapier swords!), And then strong enough horns on helmets didn’t interfere with their fight. But as soon as swords appeared for chopping blows, all the horns were left mostly with a horse's tail and a crest on the top of the helmet!


Helmet with a vase from Katsamba. Crete (around 1500 BC).

The horns of the helmets of this period were usually made of boar tusks, deer antlers, ivory, and also of metal. Two ivory artifacts in the form of ram horns were found in one of the graves in Mycenae (1550 BC).

"MEDIUM HELMETS"

Achaean helmets 1500 - 1300 BC. in many ways similar to their earlier patterns, that is, the process of change was very slow. The typical remains of a helmet made of leather or felt, trimmed with boar tusks, with necklaces and various decorations. Most often these are horns, which can be two, and one - in front, and three - sticking out in different directions. Bronze helmets of this time are also known, in particular, this is a conical bronze helmet with a height of 18,1 cm (XIV - XIII centuries. BC. E.)


Helmet height 18,1 cm (XIV - XIII centuries. BC. E.). Its decoration shows that the memory of helmets made from boar tusks was still preserved, revered, so that the creators of metal helmets decorated them with a characteristic pattern.

Outside mainland Greece and the islands of the Aegean Sea, Achaean warriors wearing helmets made of boar tusks can be seen on the Egyptian papyrus from Tel el-Amarna (1350 BC). Some of the warriors are depicted in it in conical pale yellow helmets that are very similar. on pictures of similar helmets on Mycenaean vases. A piece of boar tusks with perforations for attaching it to a leather base, found during excavations in the area of ​​Per-Ramses - the capital of Ramses the Great in the eastern delta, confirms that such helmets were worn in the territory of Ancient Egypt. Obviously, they were worn by Achaean mercenary warriors. The same fangs were found in Serbia (XIV - XIII centuries BC), and on the island of Cyprus.

That is, for this period, it is possible to consider the widest distribution of “boar helmets” and a few less - metal - bronze ones. Although archaeologists have found helmets from this period, particularly in Crete.

LATE HELMETS

“Late helmets”, that is, relating to the times of the Trojan War itself (1300 - 1100 BC), are the most diverse. First of all, these are again all the same helmets made from boar tusks, to which bronze details began to be added. And there is reason to believe that even in the VIII century. BC. they were still used, although they were already rare at that time.


Late Achaean helmet with "Vaz warriors" from Mycenae (around 1200 BC).

A conical horned helmet without faceplates is visible on a statue from Engomi from the island of Cyprus (near 1200 BC). Mercenaries shardan Egyptian pharaohs almost all portrayed in Egyptian frescoes in horned helmets.

We have reached the image of "furry" helmets, apparently made from hairy hides. It could be an ordinary hemispherical cap, covered with such a skin on top, so the authors of drawings of people wearing such helmets depicted them with a porcupine-like head. However, it is believed that it could be just long hair, picked up by a bronze or leather hoop at the level of the temples. There are a lot of images of such helmets, which, firstly, speaks about their popularity, and secondly, if this is what we think that the “armies” of this era have become more crowded and boar tusks for everyone (like and bronze) ceased to miss! Some scientists also suggested that such helmets could have been made from hedgehog skin!

However, the very sketchy style of the then artists does not allow for the detailed identification of these helmets, which leaves room for a variety of hypothetical and speculative fabrications.


"Helmet with thickets on the head" on a piece of ceramics.

Judging by the images and, above all, Egyptian frescoes, tiara helmets or tiara diadems became very popular at that time. Apparently, this again was some kind of “cap” made of leather or felt, on the edge of which a wide metal band was fastened, closed in an oval in the shape of the head of the helmet's owner. That is, if you look at it from the front or from behind, you could assume that he had a cylindrical “bucket” on his head. And just by looking from above, it was possible to determine that in fact it is not.


Tiara Helmet 1200 - 1100 BC.

The remains of such a helmet were found in Crete (about 1200 BC). Another such helmet was dug by Professor Ioannis Moscos and wrote that it has a cylindrical shape with an oval cross-section and straight sides. Its height is 15,8 cm, width 18,7 - 19,1 cm, and length is 23 - 23.6 cm. The surface is beautifully decorated with bronze stripes consisting of horizontal edges alternating with single horizontal rows of decorative rivets. Inside, judging by the drawings, there was a “hedgehog” made of horsehair, feathers, and then even a real tiara of ... twigs with leaves or flowers ?!

A fine example of Achaean bronze helmets was found in tomb XXVIII from Tiryns (about 1060 BC). This sample consists of four elements of conical shape and two long headbands of average thickness of about 1 mm. All elements of this helmet have small holes around the edges, used to attach the lining to its inner surface.


Simple bronze helmet with horsehair tube. Cyprus (end of the 7th century BC).

Simple conical helmets were largely used at the end of the Achaean period. So in the Achaean crater from Cyprus, two warriors on a chariot are clearly wearing conical helmets, although due to stylization no other elements can be identified. This crater testifies that in some cases (more often in non-combat situations) swords were worn behind their backs at that time.
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  1. brelok
    brelok 2 October 2015 06: 50 New
    +3
    Very interesting! I didn’t know much
    1. War and Peace
      War and Peace 2 October 2015 10: 16 New
      -4
      Shpakovsky is one of those "historians" who "investigate" the past from the secondary publications of previous generations of "historians." It doesn’t matter that the questions are answered, which, as there were no answers then, are not answered now, the main thing is to go along the lines of the paradigm and bend your own line. But the questions, as they were, remain for example about this Trojan war:
      - “historians”, as is the case with facts of 2.5-3 thousand years each, recorded on organic media, such as papyrus (greetings to Manethon) or parchment (Iliad, Odyssey), but this material is not stone and is subject to destruction by time. Could it be that the SKIN would be so durable and not crumble so years after a hundred? Of course it cannot be ...
      - Again, this suspicious helmet with fangs of a wild boar, the same basis, is leather, and the skin is NOT LONG-LASTING therefore 3 thousand years from the Trojan War, as we are filled with traditions, it cannot stand it.
      - Well, the most important thing is DATING, what methods did these pseudo scientists use to speak definitely about this Trojan war? If you start to deal with these "scientific" methods of the chronology of events, then the whole worthless subset of traditional historical science becomes visible even uninitiated.
      1. Riv
        Riv 2 October 2015 11: 24 New
        +5
        Firstly: dressed leather can be stored for millennia. The only question is in storage and handling. In the tomb of Tutankhamun, for example, a leather harness and linen curtains were found.
        Secondly: bone armor was used everywhere and not only in the Ancient World. Chukchi armor made of leather with bone plaques sewn on it was successfully used in skirmishes with Cossacks. Of course, she did not hold a bullet, but a saber hit - completely.
        And finally: why did you actually decide that the chronology of the events of the Ancient World is precisely aged? The error of instrumental methods of analysis can reach millennia. The history of the neoanthropus is approximately 70.000 years old. During this time period, you can cram a dozen official chronologies and still have a place. Or do you think that 50.000 years ago it was impossible to make the same bone helmet, or to melt copper?
        1. kalibr
          2 October 2015 12: 26 New
          +1
          Correctly! "Otzi" was made from unpainted leather and it did not rot!

          Minus for the fact that Otzi did not rot? What came to our time and found it?
        2. War and Peace
          War and Peace 2 October 2015 14: 59 New
          0
          Quote: Riv
          firstly: dressed leather can well be stored for millennia. The only question is in storage and handling. In the tomb of Tutankhamun, for example, a leather harness and linen curtains were found.


          funny, no the skin cannot be stored for a long time, because NOBODY in the world has set up experiments to preserve the skin in ideal (temperature, humidity) conditions, for which a special camera is needed. That Homer ordered a camera for his "immortal" poems? And the criterion can be only a HEALTHY SENSE, old shoes, old belts, bags, everything comes into disrepair VERY FAST by historical standards, for 50 years, the SKIN, say, the belt dries and begins to crumble.
          Now about Tutankhomon, Tutankhomon is Carter’s historic PR project, referring to artifacts from the tomb of Tutankhomon — go against common sense. For example, Nosovsky, who was in the tomb, noted such a fact that the wall paintings were clearly antique, such as "paint disappeared," but in these places the imitation of "falling away" is dark in light, there is no biography appropriate for the king, like all other tombs. Shpakovsky last time brought a picture of a chariot from the tomb, but this is not even a laugh - such a thing can be a toy, children of the pharaohs, and not a real object. There are a lot of things if you turn on your head.

          Quote: Riv
          Secondly: bone armor was used everywhere and not only in the Ancient World. Chukchi armor made of leather with bone plaques sewn on it was successfully used in skirmishes with Cossacks. Of course, she did not hold a bullet, but a saber hit - completely.


          NO can bones resist the impact of weapons from metal, they can probably resist bone weapons, but then it turns out that this is a VIRTUAL COMMUNITY artifact ...

          Quote: Riv
          And finally: why did you actually decide that the chronology of the events of the Ancient World is precisely aged? The error of instrumental methods of analysis can reach millennia. The history of the neoanthropus is approximately 70.000 years old. During this time period, you can cram a dozen official chronologies and still have a place. Or do you think that 50.000 years ago it was impossible to make the same bone helmet, or to melt copper?



          the methods of dating historical artifacts are not only not true, but they are FALSE and falsified of course for the sake of the ruling paradigm.
          On the CHRONOLOGY ORG website the methods of radiocarbon, dendrochronological dating and the MEETING of SPECIALISTS of materials scientists, chemists, physicists are unambiguously FALSE.
          Copper is the later invention of man, later bronze, and the bone helmet, on the contrary, is the earliest means of protection for a warrior, before the metal age. For example, among the Chukchi, they themselves said ...
          1. Glot
            Glot 2 October 2015 15: 23 New
            +3
            And the criterion can be only a HEALTHY SENSE, old shoes, old belts, bags, everything comes into disrepair VERY FAST by historical standards, for 50 years, the SKIN, say, the belt dries and begins to crumble.


            50 years old ... Hmm ... I have a friend, when I was still engaged in pokapushki, in a "pancake" (dugout) a belt with a holster was broken. Great skin was not crumbled. That belt was then worn, but the holster was sold, the truth was. )))
            Include common sense. )))

            For example, Nosovsky, who was in the tomb, noted such a fact that the wall painting is clearly antique,


            And who is it, who is Nosovsky, a cultural specialist Of Egypt?
            Not ?
            Then what conclusions can he make, in principle, about how the pig understands oranges ?!

            NO CAN BONES resist the impact of weapons from metal, probably they can withstand BONE weapons


            Oh, how ... Who is it that told you such nonsense?
            Metal is discord, and bone is bone too.
            Did not hear the case when the knife without punching the ribs went along them to the side thereby causing only deep cuts and scratches?
            Sorry, sorry ...
            And there are quite a few of them.
            There were times and bullets glided along the ribs without punching.
            The bone "scales" sewn onto the treated skin can also withstand blows of a blade weapon!

            the methods of dating historical artifacts are not only not true, but they are FALSE and falsified of course for the sake of the ruling paradigm.


            Of course, everyone lies, as usual. ALL SCIENTISTS, THE WHOLE WORLD - LIE.
            That's just the question - why ?!
            There's an answer ?

            There are a lot of things if you turn on your head.


            That's right, it's time to turn it on.
            1. War and Peace
              War and Peace 2 October 2015 15: 57 New
              -2
              Quote: Glot
              50 years old ... Hmm ... I have a friend, when I was still engaged in pokapushki, in a "pancake" (dugout) a belt with a holster was broken. Great skin was not crumbled. That belt was then worn, but the holster was sold, the truth was. )))
              Include common sense. )))


              Well, why are you lying? Do you even understand what skin is? Why did people invent skin cream? just in order to hold the MOISTURE inside the material, otherwise the skin will DRINK if there is a mechanical effect, then it breaks quickly, and if not, it is not so fast, but inevitable. What does the HUMAN SKIN of a mummy look like? on dried material that has lost all its properties, color, flexibility, smoothness, mechanical
              strength, even this example of the best processing and storage of the skin suggests that the skin deteriorates over time, lenin for example simply rots, even in formaldehyde ...

              Quote: Glot
              who is it, who is Nosovsky, a cultural specialist Of Egypt?
              Not ?
              Then what conclusions can he make, in principle, about how the pig understands oranges ?!


              your boorish behavior says only one thing that you and others like you can’t answer an argument with an argument, they can only carry a nonsense, and when they make you answer for a bazaar, it starts to send and pass on to personalities, but this is visible to all tradicians one synagogue school ...
              Not only Nosovsky, but any other normal person — not a historian — can distinguish between murals that have been peeled by time and a fake for this ...

              Quote: Glot
              The bone "scales" sewn onto the treated skin can also withstand blows of a blade weapon!


              Well, then why didn’t they use bone armor in the Middle Ages? but preferred metal? and besides, that he grinded, that iron, that bronze was always expensive. It is not necessary to drive the answer one bone FRAGILE MATERIAL and it is easy to smash with a bronze or iron sword, and if you beat directly (spear, arrow, bolt), then Kostomakha has no chance.

              Quote: Glot
              There were times and bullets glided along the ribs without punching.


              is this an argument, or what? how to argue with that? if casual and a layer of paper reflects weapons fool



              Quote: Glot
              Of course, everyone lies, as usual. ALL SCIENTISTS, THE WHOLE WORLD - LIE.
              That's just the question - why ?!
              There's an answer ?


              there were scientists who disagreed with the long chronology, for example, Isak Newton ...
              1. Glot
                Glot 2 October 2015 16: 15 New
                +4
                Well, why are you lying?


                I did not expect another answer. laughing

                Not only Nosovsky, but any other normal person — not a historian — can distinguish between murals that have been peeled by time and a fake for this ...


                Absurd stupidity! From the series that anyone can cut the appendix, or anyone can control the MIG-31. laughing
                Remember the ignoramus, people LEARNING over the years for certain professions, knowledge, to understand what is what. And only a specialist, trained and prepared can distinguish a script from a fake!

                Well, then why didn’t they use bone armor in the Middle Ages? but preferred metal?


                Progress. Did you hear a word like that? fool

                there were scientists who disagreed with the long chronology, for example, Isak Newton ...


                Your adored Fomenko also disagrees, so what? Never mind !
                You can’t argue against SCIENCE and EVIDENCE! You can’t prove anything against history, archeology and their supporting other disciplines.
                And if a tomb is excavated and dated by scientific methods and sources, then at least you shout that all this is a lie and a fake, none of the SMART people will believe you. So that. wassat
                And the answer to the question: Why all the scientists to deceive humanity, I never heard.
                No answer.
                1. War and Peace
                  War and Peace 2 October 2015 16: 41 New
                  -3
                  Quote: Glot
                  utter nonsense! From the series that anyone can cut the appendix, or anyone can control the MIG-31.


                  everything is just the handicrafts of istriks, these principles do not concern, cannot distinguish forget-me-not from shit ...

                  Quote: Glot
                  Remember the ignoramus, people LEARNING over the years for certain professions, knowledge, to understand what is what. And only a specialist, trained and prepared can distinguish a script from a fake!


                  why is this ignoramus? I have a normal higher technical education in a good university, and as for the fallacy that there are “scientists” like historians, this myth is already at the stage of debunking. For example, how these entities Academicians Yanin and Zaliznyak sorted the dating of birch bark letters of St. Barbarians from Novgorod, it is not perplexing, but laughter and one does not have to be a “trained” -intended historian to understand that these laureates are not recognized in any way as real and hypothetically contrived because of their involvement in the workshop ...

                  Quote: Glot
                  Progress. Did you hear a word like that?

                  By the way, what did the Trojans drill for these solid bone-knuckles, such narrow holes, because there was nothing besides copper?

                  Quote: Glot
                  You can’t argue against SCIENCE and EVIDENCE! You can’t prove anything against history, archeology and their auxiliary other disciplines


                  what other "science"? plainly say that any science becomes a science if mathematics comes there, and the manufacturers of the modern historical paradigm Scaliger with Petavius ​​were illiterate monks, scholastics, and simply made a mistake in their calculations ...

                  Quote: Glot
                  And if a tomb is excavated and dated by scientific methods and sources, then at least you shout that all this is a lie and a fake, none of the SMART people will believe you. So that


                  few people believe your "smart" people how pin_dosam about the moon and your advantage is that you can lie with impunity from the highest stands, but this does not last forever, CHEATING PERMANENTLY ALL will fail ...
                  1. Glot
                    Glot 2 October 2015 20: 07 New
                    +1
                    why is this ignoramus? I have a normal higher technical education in a good university, and as for the fallacy that there are “scientists” like historians, this myth is already at the stage of debunking. For example, how these entities Academicians Yanin and Zaliznyak sorted the dating of birch bark letters of St. Barbarians from Novgorod


                    Well, I’m scared FOR SUCH an education, or rather scared for those who have it.
                    And you, of course, would be much better than Ioannina and Zaliznyak would sort out that birch bark letter? smile

                    any science becomes a science if mathematics comes there, and the manufacturers of the modern historical paradigm Scaliger with Petavius ​​were illiterate monks, scholastics, and simply made a mistake in their calculations ...


                    Oh how it turns out.
                    You at least read, do not be lazy about who those you mention were. One was just a mathematician if I'm not mistaken.
                    At least check the info read from Nosovsky with Fomenko.
                    And what side do these two have for Three?

                    few people believe your "smart" people


                    You are mistaken, there are much more sane people than dark ignoramuses.
                    This can even be seen in the answers on this forum.
                    You - Fomenkoids, units, thank God.

                    the construction of a modern historical picture has not just begun, but apparently with the fall of Great Tartary in 1773


                    Here from this moment in more detail please.
                    What kind of Tartaria fell there in 1773, and what historical picture did they begin to build?

                    And even then, in what year / century was the Trojan War your way?
                    1. War and Peace
                      War and Peace 2 October 2015 20: 45 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Glot
                      Well, I’m scared FOR SUCH an education, or rather scared for those who have it


                      phobias? neurosis turning into psychosis? can take what, the hour is not equal ...

                      Quote: Glot
                      And you, of course, would be much better than Ioannina and Zaliznyak would sort out that birch bark letter?

                      Well, those who read this debriefing, of course imbued ...


                      Quote: Glot
                      You at least read, do not be lazy about who those you mention were. One was just a mathematician if I'm not mistaken.


                      mistaken of course Skliger was the historian son of a philologist laughing , and therefore, of course, one can’t expect any truth from such a cocktail, Petavius ​​was a theologian and historian, as usual ...


                      Quote: Glot
                      And what side do these two have for Three?


                      these guys created that very long chronology and drove your Trojan war to where the hell and therefore modern historiographers cannot answer simple questions ...

                      Quote: Glot
                      You are mistaken, there are much more sane people than dark ignoramuses


                      no, no, no sanity and traditional history cannot stand nearby - these are incompatible things ...

                      Quote: Glot
                      What kind of Tartaria fell there in 1773, and what historical picture began to be built?


                      the modern picture of the world, when the Russians do not know where they came from, did not have their own statehood, did not have their weapons and their money, but from the time of Peter they had serfdom and for a 150-year-old full academy of Germans who wrote us a story ...

                      Quote: Glot
                      and even then, in what year / century was the Trojan War your way?


                      read Fomenko Nosovsky, everything is there ...
                      1. Glot
                        Glot 2 October 2015 20: 59 New
                        +1
                        Well, those who read this debriefing, of course imbued ...


                        I get it. You cannot give a clear answer on the topic.

                        You are mistaken, of course, Skliger was the historian, the son of the philologist laughing, and therefore you can’t expect any truth from such a cocktail, Petavius ​​was a theologian and historian, as usual ...


                        Wrong data. More precisely superficial.
                        And they do not agree with what you said above:
                        Scaliger with Petavius ​​- were illiterate monks

                        That is, now you no longer call them illiterate.
                        Spinning like in a pan. Familiar, familiar ...

                        these guys created that very long chronology and drove your Trojan war to where the hell and therefore modern historiographers cannot answer simple questions ...


                        From what ? They can and answer, and confirm.
                        You just do not read those books. When studying history, read historians on anyhow.

                        the modern picture of the world, when the Russians do not know where they came from, did not have their own statehood, did not have their weapons and their money, but from the time of Peter they had serfdom and for a 150-year-old full academy of Germans who wrote us a story ...


                        I asked about Tartaria and 1773, do not skip the topic.
                        Answer which Tartaria according to your words fell in 1773 giving the beginning of the whole story?
                        A direct question is a direct answer.
                        And in Russia, again, read historians. Already at least from the XNUMXth century there is information about Russia. N.E. Of course, not before.
                        As for my money, I’ll remind you about gold and silver coins, this is our first money, and actually to the question of the State, you can also be sent around the same time to study HISTORY and not NONSENSE.

                        read Fomenko Nosovsky, everything is there ...


                        Drain again?
                        I asked a simple question:
                        - In what year do you think the Trojan War was.
                        Do not send me to your "history" teachers, answer for yourself.
                        Or not able to?
                        Then why shake the air?
                      2. War and Peace
                        War and Peace 2 October 2015 21: 27 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Glot
                        I get it. You cannot give a clear answer on the topic.


                        I think I know better about literacy ...

                        Quote: Glot
                        Wrong data. More precisely superficial.
                        And they do not agree with what you said above:


                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Дионисий_Петавиус
                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Скалигер,_Жозеф_Жюст
                        enjoy ...

                        Quote: Glot
                        oh there is now you no longer call them illiterate.
                        Spinning like in a pan. Familiar, familiar ...


                        it happened in your head, these arguments of the “ancient” eclipses were neither mathematicians nor astronomers, therefore UNLIMITED in relation to them is fully suitable ...

                        Quote: Glot
                        From what ? They can and answer, and confirm.

                        Well, I personally asked you a question - "what did the boar's fangs drill" in that era? the answer is not accepted with a bronze drill, because so far there are no bronze drills, or bronze razors, so those statues with shaved faces of the Bronze Age do not understand how they got there ...

                        Quote: Glot
                        Answer which Tartaria according to your words fell in 1773 giving the beginning of the whole story?


                        GREAT ...
                        Quote: Glot
                        As for my money, I’ll remind you about gold and silver, this is our first money, and

                        Well, at first there was good money, then a period of lack of money, then rivets went, and in the 17th century only copper, just some kind of sine wave ...


                        Quote: Glot
                        asked a simple question:
                        - In what year do you think the Trojan War was.


                        it’s not exactly known, due to the fact that dating techniques are imperfect - it’s only for the Tradians it’s easy, it’s there, it’s here, but according to Fomenko in the 12-13 century ...
                      3. kalibr
                        2 October 2015 22: 00 New
                        0
                        Why are there no bronze razors? Just as they exist and are discovered by archaeologists!
                        And if the Trojan War was in 12-13 c. So ... Battle of Salamis, generally in 18? THREE YEARS BACK? Ha ha ha!
                        But what about the battle of Hastings that took place at 1066 just in the year of the passage of comet Halley? After all, she is depicted on embroidery from Bayeux? And the embroidery was definitely in the 14 century, the monastery chronicles say. And how can all this be? If this is a fake 14 century, then how did the 14 century know that the comet passed exactly in the 1066 year? And why in the 14 century made a cloth of length 70 m, and the end torn off?
                      4. War and Peace
                        War and Peace 2 October 2015 22: 08 New
                        -1
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Why are there no bronze razors? Just as they exist and are discovered by archaeologists!


                        can show these same razors?
                      5. kalibr
                        3 October 2015 07: 21 New
                        0
                        For the sake of stupid shovel 20 volumes of USSR Archeology? Too much honor!
                      6. War and Peace
                        War and Peace 3 October 2015 08: 43 New
                        +1
                        Quote: kalibr
                        For the sake of stupid shovel 20 volumes of USSR Archeology? Too much honor!


                        Well then, what should I call you? Chatterbox?
                      7. The comment was deleted.
                2. Glot
                  Glot 2 October 2015 22: 32 New
                  0
                  it happened in your head, these arguments of the “ancient” eclipses were neither mathematicians nor astronomers, therefore UNLIMITED in relation to them is fully suitable ...


                  For their time, these were literate and educated people.
                  Again, the drain from you and not knowledge.

                  GREAT ...


                  More details. Or merge again as you say that which you cannot confirm.
                  So what is there with the "Tartaria" that fell in 1773?
                  Although vryat I wait for an answer ...

                  Well, at first there was good money, then a period of lack of money, then rivets went, and in the 17th century only copper, just some kind of sine wave ...


                  There is such an auxiliary historical discipline - numismatics.
                  Learn, this is interesting.
                  By the way, it also destroys many of the arguments of Fomenkoids.
                  Again, I repeat, study history in historical disciplines and not in popularist / commercial books.
                  Although, to whom I say ...

                  it’s not exactly known, due to the fact that dating techniques are imperfect - it’s only for the Tradians it’s easy, it’s there, it’s here, but according to Fomenko in the 12-13 century ...


                  Here. And now - DO YOU HAVE EVIDENCE FOR THIS STATEMENT?
                  Not empty words such as "we were deceived," "the ignoramus wrote to us," but, evidence that the events of the Trojan War are 12-13 centuries A.D. ?
                  Although what evidence is there? This is a delirium tremens white ... laughing
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. Aljavad
            Aljavad 3 October 2015 04: 54 New
            +2
            What kind of Tartaria fell there in 1773, and what historical picture did they begin to build?


            This is the one that lay south of Hyperborea and east of Velikoukria. laughing
            1. Glot
              Glot 3 October 2015 09: 31 New
              +1
              This is the one that lay south of Hyperborea and east of Velikoukria.


              I thought so. laughing
        3. Aljavad
          Aljavad 3 October 2015 04: 51 New
          +1
          I have a normal higher technical education in a good university

          "The trouble is, since the pie begins to sharpen the boots, and the cobbler begins to bake the pies!" Krylov.
      2. kalibr
        2 October 2015 17: 50 New
        0
        Not only Nosovsky, but any other normal person — not a historian — can distinguish between murals that have been peeled by time and a fake for this ...

        Yes, it can not! A non-specialist learns that the painting of the Amarna epoch does not differ from this, say the same Khufu ... I know how to cook, but I won’t bother to make a cake! This is taught!

        So, two fomencids put two minuses. Well, yes, they certainly are not familiar with the culture of Egypt. But Nosovsky, too, hadn’t studied it professionally, and he is not a forensic expert in his specialty!
      3. Aljavad
        Aljavad 3 October 2015 04: 49 New
        +1
        Well, then why didn’t they use bone armor in the Middle Ages? but preferred metal?

        Progress. Did you hear a word like that?


        Bone armor was quite used in the Middle Ages and later. Especially the steppes. Of horse hooves in particular.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Aljavad
      Aljavad 3 October 2015 04: 45 New
      +1
      Well, why are you lying? Do you even understand what skin is? Why did people invent skin cream? just in order to hold the MOISTURE inside the material, otherwise the skin will DRINK if there is a mechanical effect, then it breaks quickly, and if not, it is not so fast, but inevitable. What does the HUMAN SKIN of a mummy look like? on dried material that has lost all its properties, color, flexibility, smoothness, mechanical
      strength, even this example of the best processing and storage of the skin suggests that the skin deteriorates over time, lenin for example simply rots, even in formaldehyde ...


      I have an army belt, Lend-Lease (made in the USA for the Red Army). Looks good. Don't puff. Creams are not oiled.
      But Lenin began to rot before death. What is still somehow preserved is a scientific feat .... Or is it also a hoax ??? And there has long been NOT Lenin ???? Everywhere a plot !!!!
      1. Glot
        Glot 3 October 2015 09: 30 New
        +1
        I have an army belt, Lend-Lease (made in the USA for the Red Army).


        I really don’t have a Lendlizovskiy, Soviet belt in my pants in which I rummage through the forests and fields, 1985 of course, but it feels great. Shabby but not losing its properties. Also, I do not do anything with him with creams or anything else.
      2. War and Peace
        War and Peace 3 October 2015 11: 18 New
        0
        Quote: Aljavad
        I have an army belt, Lend-Lease (made in the USA for the Red Army). Looks good. Don't puff. Creams are not oiled.


        and that the skin absolutely did not degrade? you're lying, the skin is changing in the direction of deterioration ...
  2. kalibr
    2 October 2015 18: 20 New
    0
    Yes, that's the most important thing - why? I understand there is a "conspiracy of watchmakers", there is a "conspiracy of masons", there is a "Jewish conspiracy", there is ... a conspiracy, a conspiracy, a conspiracy ... Only the main ones - 20 - for every taste! Now here is added the "plot of historians". And I'm among the conspirators! So cool! Dreamed all my life! And most importantly, so much labor, energy, energy and everything so that the completely unknown to me GLOT would believe that the Trojan War was in 1250. in Larnaca, and how many things are there ... Well, MILLIONS of workers need to be involved, to do all this, to dig, to dig ... And the modern method of analysis will still show - ceramics ... modern. And two-tonne gold Carter, of course, put his personal reserves in the tomb of Tutankhamen ... he was blissful! and all his ilk ...
    1. Glot
      Glot 2 October 2015 20: 17 New
      +1
      And most importantly, so much labor, strength, energy, and everything so that a completely unfamiliar GLOT believed that the Trojan War was in 1250. And how much had to be buried in the ground ... I only went to the small archaeological museum for an hour in Larnaca and how much there is ... Well, it is necessary to attract MILLIONS of workers, to do all this, dig, dig out ...


      Yes, and dig and dig not only in Asia Minor, Greece, Crete, but also in Europe, East, Asia and Africa.
      Build settlements, cities, fortresses, roads, palaces, stuff them with utensils, decorations, weapons, coins and more. Then crush and bury. Still to build tombs everywhere, to forge burials as well stuffing them with everything necessary according to a particular culture and era, and all this is also buried, and so on around the world. And all this, to deceive me, and that I would believe in the Ancient World. laughing
      Lord, how can you believe in the stupidity of those who are trying from scratch, it is absolutely unproven to say that there was neither Troy, nor Athens, nor Rome ... And most importantly, still on the surface, turn on the elementary logic, think a little but not, adherents of HX and similar “revelations” like them unconditionally believe in delirium and “prove” the stupidity of their gurus with foam at the mouth.
      It's funny ...
      1. War and Peace
        War and Peace 2 October 2015 23: 05 New
        -2
        Quote: Glot
        Yes, and dig and dig not only in Asia Minor, Greece, Crete, but also in Europe, East, Asia and Africa.
        Build settlements, cities, fortresses, roads, palaces, stuff them with utensils, decorations, weapons, coins and more. Then crush and bury. Still to build tombs everywhere, to forge burials as well stuffing them with everything necessary according to a particular culture and era, and all this is also buried, and so on around the world. And all this, that would deceive me, and that I would believe in the Ancient World


        Yes, I heard this type of argument, but it’s called himself, he invented himself, he was scared, do not scare yourself ...

        Quote: Glot
        Lord, how can you believe in the stupidity of those who are trying from scratch, it is absolutely unproven to say that there was neither Troy, nor Athens, nor Rome ... And most importantly, still on the surface, turn on the elementary logic, think a little but not, adherents


        Well, answer, how could such a "empire" as a Roman exist without a developed system of counting? It is not possible to count in Roman numerals, let alone keep an account of the empire, try to divide at least three-digit numbers, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE ...
        1. Glot
          Glot 2 October 2015 23: 29 New
          +2
          Yes, I heard this type of argument, but it’s called himself, he invented himself, he was scared, do not scare yourself ...


          That is precisely what you somewhere heard something, but did not understand anything. Alas.
          The argumentative, as you say, is THOUSAND monuments of the time of Antiquity around the world from Africa to Afghanistan. And you want to say that all this is global falsification?
          Well then, I advise you to ride and look at least at some of them. Himself, and not through the eyes of Nosovsky, Fomenko and others. It is not difficult, and so far many of them are intact.
          By the way, the Fomenkoids are akin to those who have recently torn Palmyra, and a little earlier - the statues in Bamiyan, and a little earlier much more. They also do not need history, they are not interested in it, and they do not accept any explanations. But the truth fomenkoids did not reach this point, they only tear memory in the heads of stupid.

          Well, answer, how could such a "empire" as a Roman exist without a developed system of counting? It is not possible to count in Roman numerals, let alone keep an account of the empire, try to divide at least three-digit numbers, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE ...


          Who told you such nonsense?
          Everything was fine in Dr. Rome with the bill. In absolute order.
          No wonder half the world was under the Empire, and it lasted a thousand years.
          No, it’s really pointless to argue with you about history.
          You are zero in her. Full.
          1. War and Peace
            War and Peace 3 October 2015 00: 01 New
            0
            Quote: Glot
            Argumentan as you say, THOUSAND monuments of the time of Antiquity around the world from Africa to Afghanistan


            and who says that there wasn’t "antiquity"? of course there was a previous civilization that built the pyramids, the temple of Jupiter, the huge granite construction of St. Petersburg, Palmyra, Philadelphia, Odessa-Ord
            Yes, it was a pre-flood civilization, but traditions appropriated this knowledge to themselves and changed everything in their own way ...

            Quote: Glot
            Who told you such nonsense?
            Everything was fine in Dr. Rome with the bill. In absolute order.
            No wonder half the world was under the Empire, and it lasted a thousand years.


            Let it be required to multiply 126 by 37 (we will use action signs
            modern; the Romans did not have them, the names of the actions were written in words).
            http://lib.ru/NTL/ARTICLES/arifmetica.txt

            Yes, uncle is usually the thief loudest than all and shouts - "hold the thief." Traditions are completely overlooked, that a spelled in the forehead, just like the Bandera parliament, is really not in honor.
            1. Glot
              Glot 3 October 2015 09: 22 New
              -1
              and who says that there wasn’t "antiquity"? of course there was a previous civilization that built the pyramids, the temple of Jupiter, the huge granite construction of St. Petersburg, Palmyra, Philadelphia, Odessa-Ord
              Yes, it was a pre-flood civilization, but traditions appropriated this knowledge to themselves and changed everything in their own way ...


              Oh, how ... Then you assure that all this is fakes (your Nosovsky himself saw them laughing ), now attribute all this to - Antediluvian civilizations.
              You already decide, and then somehow rush either one way or the other.
              Oh, and Peter was built before the flood too? laughing
              "You have to eat!" (c) A.S. Shpak laughing
              "It's just some kind of holiday" (c) Karabas Barabas laughing

              Let it be required to multiply 126 by 37 (we will use action signs
              modern; the Romans did not have them, the names of the actions were written in words).
              http://lib.ru/NTL/ARTICLES/arifmetica.txt


              And what is wrong with that? They also could show tens and hundreds on fingers, so what? How did this way prevent them from building an Empire?
              Do not like the Roman example, take the designation of numbers with letters in the Slavic script, or the Babylonian wedges. What does not suit you? Yes, they wrote numbers, they thought so.
              It is long for you, not easy, but for them it was simple and understandable.
              And based on this, you conclude that Dr. Rome did not exist? smile
              Well, you can’t be so dense then ... belay
            2. War and Peace
              War and Peace 3 October 2015 11: 09 New
              -1
              Quote: Glot
              Oh, how ... Then you assure that all this is fake (your Nosovsky himself saw them laughing), now attribute all this to - Antediluvian civilizations.


              Uncle lag behind, that’s exactly how much work is being done to determine the PRESENT history and traces of past civilization are found in St. Petersburg and in American cities and in Japanese and many others, in many cities of Russia, old buildings are built on the foundations of old buildings with different technology. And by the way, Nosovsky has nothing to do with these works ...


              Quote: Glot
              And what is wrong with that? They also could show tens and hundreds on fingers, so what? How did this way prevent them from building an Empire?
              Do not like the Roman example, take the designation of numbers with letters in the Slavic script, or the Babylonian wedges. What does not suit you? Yes, they wrote numbers, they thought so.
              It is long for you, not easy, but for them it was simple and understandable.
              And based on this, you conclude that Dr. Rome did not exist? smile
              Well, you can’t be so dense


              you are a typical tradition, that on the forehead, that on the forehead, no reason arguments reach. In the “Roman Empire” there were about 60-80 miles people, so here you are, as a “historian” who understands only “history” and nothing else, I say that in order to make up the ANNUAL BUDGET, calculate taxes, take into account the country's expenses THOUSAND pages of business papers are needed and it’s IMPOSSIBLE otherwise, but for this, CALCULATIONS were needed, have you heard that they like money accounts? you didn’t hear anything, by the way the Romans didn’t have paper, what did they write and count on?
              So, for the functioning of a huge country, certain civilization conditions are needed and the main achievement by mankind of the necessary number systems, if people can’t count and count quickly, there will be no science, no trade, no industry, no state itself, but there will be a communal clan society, with economic relations on concepts. Is that clear?
            3. Glot
              Glot 3 October 2015 21: 25 New
              +1
              that’s exactly how much work is being done to determine the PRESENT history and traces of past civilization are found in St. Petersburg and in American cities and in Japanese and many others, in many cities of Russia, old buildings are built on the foundations of old buildings with different technology.


              Oooo ... everything is much worse than I even thought. Much.
              That network according to your Peter, Moscow and even American, Japanese and other cities were erected on the cores of the cities of more ancient, unknown civilizations?
              You seem to watch a lot of TV, in particular, the RenTV channel. laughing
              And what are these buildings? Name some. And who investigated them and came to such conclusions? You can also name it.
              N-yeah ... it's a pindan.

              In the “Roman Empire” there were about 60-80 miles people, so here you are, as a “historian” who understands only “history” and nothing else, I say that in order to make up the ANNUAL BUDGET, calculate taxes, take into account the country's expenses THOUSAND pages of business papers are needed and it’s IMPOSSIBLE otherwise, but for this, CALCULATIONS were needed, have you heard that they like money accounts? you didn’t hear anything, by the way the Romans didn’t have paper, what did they write and count on?
              So, for the functioning of a huge country, certain civilization conditions are needed and the main achievement by mankind of the necessary number systems, if people can’t count and count quickly, there will be no science, no trade, no industry, no state itself, but there will be a communal clan society, with economic relations on concepts. Is that clear?


              You absolutely do not understand what you are trying to reason.
              Why climb into topics that are not for you in principle?
              According to the Roman Empire, a mass of sources remained. Weight. DATED often by the Romans themselves.
              Moreover, these sources are diverse, both material and written, epigraphic and others and others. Without even taking the Greek, there are Nevi, Polybius, Titus Livy, Diodorus of Sicily, Appian, notes on the wars of Caesar, Suetonius and many, many others ...
              How do you dormant and ignorant. It's a shame !!!
              I don’t even want to put you a minus. Here is a tree ... fool
            4. War and Peace
              War and Peace 4 October 2015 00: 40 New
              0
              Quote: Glot
              You absolutely do not understand what you are trying to reason.
              Why climb into topics that are not for you in principle?
              According to the Roman Empire, a mass of sources remained. Weight. DATED often by the Romans themselves.
              Moreover, these sources are diverse, both material and written, epigraphic and others and others. Without even taking the Greek, there are Nevi, Polybius, Titus Livy, Diodorus of Sicily, Appian, notes on the wars of Caesar, Suetonius and many, many others ...
              How do you dormant and ignorant. It's a shame !!!
              I don’t even want to put you a minus. Here is a tree ...


              the fact that you are hinting at the knowledge of ancient authors does not mean that this is indeed the case, and that your "antique" authors can answer my questions, for example, you can’t say anything, what I asked you about . In addition to an overwhelming arrogance with hints of some kind of knowledge, nothing comes of achieving you. I brought you a scientific article about the complexity of the Roman account, but you, as a person who can neither read, because you don’t hear the interlocutor and you don’t even read the proposal, nor do you think because you didn’t understand what I told you, you couldn’t understand that besides the virtual ones far-fetched historical constructions, there are quite real non-cabinet reasons refuting historical fabrications. This is a "natural" defense of traditional history - to pretend that real specialists in material science, chemists, engineers, military, mate
              Maths cannot understand anything in narcotic dreams called traditional history. There is no use in you in a dispute; you can only be rude, stupid and persist in stupidity.
              What to take from you? you are not able to explain how the written sources of the ancients have reached the present time; you are not able to explain how the bones of the ancients were enlightened.
              You are not capable of understanding what accounting is, because the previous “tantrums” when writing Neviev-Polybius did not pay attention to such trifles as an uncomfortable number system. If you ask how it was possible to climb a horse without a heavy armed rider? how he fought there without stirrups? , how did these “antique” cavalry riders without pants sit with their bare ass and feet on a soiled horse, while sweat corroded human skin? , then I even know that you will answer, because I’ve already talked with “historians” like you, there’s nothing to answer about the case, so there will be only raunchy laughs, juggling and jumping from five to ten.
            5. Glot
              Glot 4 October 2015 11: 01 New
              +1
              I didn’t want to answer this topic anymore, since people with heads on their shoulders are clear, for others, clarity will never come.
              But okay. Last time.

              the fact that you are hinting at the knowledge of ancient authors does not mean that this is actually so and that your "antique" authors can answer my questions,


              I do not hint, I give you links to the source, links to evidence. Study.

              I brought you a scientific article about the complexity of the Roman account,


              If the plate above that you pulled is unclear where the scientific article is for you from, then you basically never studied anything. And if in this plate you are trying to prove that Ancient Rome could not be, then it’s difficult to call it even stupidity. This is exactly how you put it, “narcotic dreams” and not the study of history, and certainly not proof.
              I already sent you to sources about Rome, material, epigraphic and other. Study.

              If you ask, how could a heavily armed horseman climb a horse without stirrups? how he fought there without stirrups? , how did these “antique” cavalry riders without pants sit with their bare ass and feet on a soiled horse, while sweat corroded human skin?


              Yes, there were no stirrups, and in our understanding there was no saddle either, but some nations did not use saddles until the XNUMXth century and that, this did not prevent them from using horses. Yes, both cataphracty and light archers rode horses without stirrups, but not with a "bare ass" as you put it. Study the sources; they too have come down to us, not books of charlatans. By the way, it is still not a fact that there was some kind of horse harness like a saddle, stirrups and other things they did not have at all.

              there is nothing to answer in the case, therefore there will only be raging chuckles, juggling and jumping from five to ten.


              That is true. You have tight evidence. Very tight. You haven’t brought a single one yet. So also move out with uncomfortable questions.
              They didn’t answer the question which one, according to your words, “Tatraria fell in 1773 giving the beginning of the whole history” and that “many houses in St. Petersburg and Moscow and other cities are built on the foundations of more ancient, unknown civilizations” and so on and so forth. Since blurt out stupidity, not able to really answer it.
              Plus, literacy is trivial with you.
              I already doubt very much your words that you have graduated from a good university and are well educated.
              The only thing you do perfectly is sculpt all the minuses, as they say "in impotent rage." laughing
              Well, this is probably the topic of your nonsense for myself, I close this topic. And, learn the story. hi
            6. War and Peace
              War and Peace 4 October 2015 11: 27 New
              -1
              The construction of the forum is such that most students remove the foam from above or off topic, so they don’t get paid or frostbitten with their endless conversations. This is because it's time to end the conversation, such as you need not to convince, but to kill from a slingshot, because consciousness as a carrier of thought has long ceased to exist - everything has been sold, exchanged, lost, only donkey stubbornness remains.

              Quote: Glot
              I do not hint, I give you links to the source, links to evidence. Study.


              in your endless denial you didn’t even notice that you didn’t give a single link, it only seems to you that you did so ...

              Quote: Glot
              If this is the plate above that you pulled, it’s not clear where the scientific article is for you from, then you basically never studied anything. And if in this plate you are trying to prove that Ancient Rome could not be, then it’s difficult to call it even stupidity.


              in the article there is the main COMPARISON of calculation methods by different numeration tools, therefore this example is just scientific, because it is visual ...

              Quote: Glot
              I already sent you to sources about Rome, material, epigraphic and other. Study.


              I would also like to send you somewhere. You should uncle need to go to the country of lessons not learned after Perestukin, because in mathematics you 2, in logic 2, in Russian 2, and most importantly, in history 2. These are the same real assessments of your educational level, although it may you and threesome’s certificate, but the three-year-old is a two-man with ambitions laughing
            7. The comment was deleted.
            8. War and Peace
              War and Peace 4 October 2015 11: 36 New
              -1
              Quote: Glot
              Yes, there were no stirrups, and in our understanding there was no saddle either, but some nations did not use saddles until the XNUMXth century and that, this did not prevent them from using horses. Yes, both cataphracty and light archers rode horses without stirrups, but not with a "bare ass" as you put it. Study the sources; they too have come down to us, not books of charlatans. By the way, it is still not a fact that there was some kind of horse harness like a saddle, stirrups and other things they did not have at all.


              I’m telling your uncle specifically that the contact of human skin and horse sweat leads to the erosion of human skin, and you? and you are nothing ...

              Quote: Glot
              they didn’t answer the question which one, in your words, “Tatraria fell in 1773 giving the beginning of the whole history” and that “many houses in St. Petersburg and Moscow and other cities are built on the foundations of more ancient, unknown civilizations” and so on and so forth. Since blurt out stupidity, not able to really answer it.


              Why You Need It? you won’t read, so you put your horns against the wall - “I want”, well, if you please

              http://www.kramola.info/vesti/letopisi-proshlogo/gibel-tartarii-chast-1

              https://youtu.be/WZQahsI5aqs
  • The comment was deleted.
  • kalibr
    2 October 2015 21: 47 New
    0
    In fact, nonsense! Back in 1972, the USSR published the book "Metal-Man - Time." By the way, it can be found on the web. Author E.N. Chernykh - head of the laboratory of spectral analysis of the Institute of Archeology of the USSR Academy of Sciences, a specialist in ancient metallurgy. Copper is primary - it is metal. Bronze is secondary - it is an alloy of copper with tin or lead, silver ... all sorts of ligatures happen. In all textbooks on metallurgy it is written and a person with a technical education should know this.
    1. War and Peace
      War and Peace 3 October 2015 09: 06 New
      0
      Quote: kalibr
      In fact, nonsense! Back in 1972, the USSR published the book "Metal-Man - Time." By the way, it can be found on the web. Author E.N. Chernykh - head of the laboratory of spectral analysis of the Institute of Archeology of the USSR Academy of Sciences, a specialist in ancient metallurgy. Copper is primary - it is metal. Bronze is secondary - it is an alloy of copper with tin or lead, silver ... all sorts of ligatures happen. In all textbooks on metallurgy it is written and a person with a technical education should know this.


      so what is the book there are blacks, but there are no facts and evidence that this black said there? You Shpakovsky since you came to the forum so at least give some evidence to your own words, otherwise you give the impression of a person who is not responsible for his words ...
  • Glot
    Glot 2 October 2015 12: 00 New
    +2
    therefore, 3 thousand years from the Trojan War, as we are filled with traditions, it cannot stand it.


    Oh, and when was she then, a hundred years ago? laughing
    Or was she not at all? All this fiction and global deception? laughing
  • The comment was deleted.
  • kalibr
    2 October 2015 12: 11 New
    +3
    And again, "star-shaped Fomenkovets"? Well hello, hello there! Not for you, but for those who read comments I inform you that the skin has not stood the test of time. The helmet, which is a reconstruction in the photo, but the fangs are completely preserved. And since there are people who doubt dating, I inform you as an announcement that there will soon be an article on modern methods of archaeological dating. But in general, I am surprised at the selectivity of the "Fomenkovites". Well, do not believe the Manetho - excellent. But the graffiti on the temples is how? They are on the stone! And the first were sketched and described by the French, who ended up in Egypt with Napoleon. Then the very idea of ​​forging something was the height of idiocy. What for? Another time, another psychology ... But they stubbornly hammer their own, from their bell tower ... Funny! However, I am even grateful to you! He himself wanted to start a box with fictitious names, register, and write comments on himself, squinting like a fool, so that he would look smarter against their background. This technique is like that in PR. But I teach it to students and we would then analyze it at seminars ... But I thought that it wasn’t worth it, that God himself would send me this! And so he sent you ha ha! Thanks!!!
    1. Glot
      Glot 2 October 2015 12: 25 New
      +2
      But in general, I am surprised at the selectivity of the "Fomenkovites".


      Oh yes, very fine selectivity, this is their method.
      They select a small piece from the general layer, and casting doubt on it, develop their theories without noticing anything around.
      They also answer uncomfortable questions, only selectively, to which at least somehow it is possible to draw something in response, for the rest - they do not hear and do not see.
      A sect, a pure sect led by the "Great and Terrible" academician. laughing
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. War and Peace
      War and Peace 2 October 2015 16: 16 New
      -3
      Quote: kalibr
      And again, "star-shaped Fomenkovets"


      rude, do not notice it already?

      Quote: kalibr
      The helmet, which is a reconstruction in the photo, but the fangs are completely preserved.


      if the skin has rotted, then on what basis is it concluded that this is a helmet, and a hundred is a military helmet, and not a front helmet?

      Quote: kalibr
      And since there are people who doubt dating, I inform you as an announcement that there will soon be an article on modern methods of archaeological dating. But in general I am surprised by the selectivity of "Fomenkovites


      Now it will be interesting better than your reconstructions ...

      Quote: kalibr
      But the graffiti on the temples is how? They are on the stone! And the first were sketched and described by the French, who ended up in Egypt with Napoleon. Then the very idea of ​​forging something was the height of idiocy. What for? Another time, another psychology ...


      the construction of a modern historical picture has not just begun, but apparently with the fall of Great Tartary in 1773,
      what did Napoleon need in Egypt? Why was the war with the Mamelukes needed? When the enemy is Europe and the Angles? There is still no answer ...

      Quote: kalibr
      This technique is such in PR. But I teach it to students and we would then analyze it at seminars ...


      so you are not a historian? I thought so, retelling the tales of previous storytellers, this is not a historian called, but a storyteller ...
      1. kalibr
        2 October 2015 18: 02 New
        0
        Being a historian and teaching PR are two different things, isn't it? But to be rude ... why would a fool not say that he is sick, crazy and that he has oak bark in his brain? I have already written to you that I can be exquisitely polite with people whom I know of, that they are my intellectual equal, even if they are junior dredgers in the cesspool transport — there are miracles. But about you, I know only one thing - neither this nor that and no way to know, but according to the statements - stupid fomencid! So why should I breed polites? I see what I sing! That's when you will have 35 books published in the USSR, Russia, England and Germany (more than half of the history) and at least the number of articles published in the journal Voprosy istorii, and here, on this site, then ... I I will be ready to listen to you. And so ... According to you Kashchenko is crying, and they decided to be offended.
        1. War and Peace
          War and Peace 2 October 2015 18: 33 New
          -1
          your "works" published in different countries do not say that your works have become better known to anyone, but only about one thing, that works of Shpakovsky have been added to meaningless waste paper, such as the works of Lenin or Kautsky, and there is nothing to be proud of, such "historians" as you are considering your publication on fuel in a bucket per ruble. And if you take into account your flat answers on the forum, the picture is clear, except how to dirty paper on historical subjects, to be rude, which indicates a low cultural level and make links to Polish cinema laughing - Based on Prussian fiction, here's a portrait of a typical tradition historian in person ...
          1. kalibr
            2 October 2015 20: 22 New
            -1
            Eggs can build and, but write at least something is not. Where, where, and in England, they are able to count money and simply will not publish some Russian there. However, like you do not understand. There is nothing worse than a techie who discovered a story for himself. I asked you what you finished to find out where they are cooked, but something you were ashamed to answer. Or are you afraid that I will call there and find out the low level of student training?

            So, there is a minus - no answer - familiar handwriting!
  • Sweles
    Sweles 2 October 2015 19: 26 New
    +1
    Quote: war and peace
    - Well, the most important thing is DATING, what methods did these pseudo scientists use to speak definitely about this Trojan war? If you start to deal with these "scientific" methods of the chronology of events, then the whole worthless subset of traditional historical science becomes visible even uninitiated.


    in general, questions of dating of historical artifacts, of course the most important, how can one date the same Radzivilov chronicle if the watermarked paper Bull head has survived to this day? but this does not say at all that this paper is from the time of Peter, but perhaps a much later manufacturer. Fomenko and Nosovsky sorted out the Radzivilovskiy chronicle and facts of forgery of the main main provisions on the "Norman theory" and on the temporary linking of Rurik's events to TI were established. You cannot pass by this fact.
    As for the Homeric poems, the facts of the appearance of these monuments are not completely clarified, we can say that Homer appears as a poet after "translations" into German, Russian, and English at the end of the 18th, at the beginning and in the middle of the 19th century. As for the primary sources of the poems, then the matter is muddy, like in the 14-15th century there were translations into Italian and Aristotle mentioned Homer, but all this is unreliable. It would be nice to know in what form Homer came to us before starting to discuss wars and weapons of those eras.
    1. kalibr
      2 October 2015 20: 26 New
      +1
      We are discussing not a poem, but pieces of iron, but they are not bad preserved! And correspond to the descriptions in the poem. And what, to fit the poem under the glands or helmets, someone made them and buried them in the 19 century? And the point? Prove that the poem is true or that the poem confirms the glands?
      1. Sweles
        Sweles 2 October 2015 21: 41 New
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        We are not discussing a poem, but a piece of iron, and they are preserved quite well.


        there was no iron then, but bronze does not corrode



        Quote: kalibr
        meaning? To prove that the poem is true or that the poem confirms the glands?


        Well, because you tied your "glands" to the Trojan War and this era, and to no one else, you said that these are Trojan swords, so hold on to your words.
        1. kalibr
          3 October 2015 07: 39 New
          +1
          So they were found in Troy and how should they be?
          1. Sweles
            Sweles 3 October 2015 10: 29 New
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            So they were found in Troy and how should they be?


            This small settlement excavated by Schliemann has no evidence that this is Troy, and not something else, because there is not a single letter on these gold items. In those days, Schliemann was strongly criticized by contemporaries archaeologists and historians, because they knew that Schliemann - swindler.
            http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/5014098/post307264511/
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • timyr
    timyr 2 October 2015 06: 58 New
    +6
    Poor hedgehogs already ate them then. After all, a hedgehog, not only valuable fur but also a helmet. But seriously written, write more.
    1. kalibr
      2 October 2015 07: 21 New
      0
      Timur, as they say - “follow-up follows” ... Follow the site news!
  • Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi 2 October 2015 07: 21 New
    +4
    Now about spears, chariots, methods of warfare!
    1. kalibr
      2 October 2015 07: 23 New
      +1
      It will all be. The archaeological material is rich, processed and well studied. Plus, the text of the Iliad, which in textual analysis also gives a lot.
      1. Severomor
        Severomor 2 October 2015 16: 41 New
        +1
        And also, if not difficult, about the multi-ton siege machines (rams) and stone-throwers made by the skilled masters of antiquity.

        PS Unfortunately, many technologies are lost
        1. kalibr
          2 October 2015 22: 08 New
          0
          We have an excellent study on this topic by the author Nosov, but it seems to be only in English. Specify yourself - is there a translation into Russian or not! There it is all there.
          1. Severomor
            Severomor 3 October 2015 00: 04 New
            +2
            I am very interested in a ram with 4 stone wheels weighing 120 tons. The construction process itself is interesting in ancient times.
            1. kalibr
              3 October 2015 07: 39 New
              0
              I don't know anything about it, I have never met a description anywhere ...
  • Riv
    Riv 2 October 2015 08: 42 New
    +7
    It’s ridiculous for us, brethren, to begin a detailed analysis of this ...

    First of all: why exactly boar fangs? Any brain bone is no less strong, and a plate from it can be turned into a larger area. This will obviously have a positive effect on strength. The fact is that the fang is practically not necessary to grind. He is already the right section. Drill two or three holes (or you can get by with one), grind a little - and you can sew to the base. On top, you can apply another layer of skin and get a pretty decent hat that protects no worse than metal. And with boars then there really were no problems. The then breed of pigs was just a domesticated forest boar. They practically didn’t contain fat (Ukrainians are indignant!) But there were no problems with the selection of fangs of the appropriate size. But most importantly: the simplest manufacturing and repair technology. Awl, linen flax, drill - with this set, anyone can easily learn to manage. There was no need to drag to the blacksmith for repair.

    Second: why on the helmet horns, tails and other jewelry? Option one: mislead the enemy. It is known from what place the tail grows and its location on the helmet showed that the soldier had brains instead. Of course, such people were afraid of such people. :))) A more vital explanation: to distinguish the commander from among ordinary soldiers. Banners have not yet been invented, but in battle, the fighters needed some sort of landmark: whom to cover, next to whom to stay. What could be simpler than marking the leader’s helmet with a feather sultan? Hence the expression went: "Hamburg rooster." Apparently the Goths loved feathers even then. It is clear that no one would make such a plume strong. Why the extra risk of losing a helmet in battle?
    Well, Odysseus, as a brutal leader, preferred large boar fangs.

    Well and once again about the rapier swords: UNAWFUL. Against at least a protected enemy, such a rapier is useless. And the fact that they were all the same done is trivially explained: the high cost of the metal. If you have a choice to arm three people with skewers, or one with a normal sword, then the choice is obvious: arm three. Against the armless and such a weapon will come down, and against the armor there is a spear that never went out of fashion at all. But you have three soldiers, not one.
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 2 October 2015 12: 47 New
      +4
      1. To give preference to curved boar fangs for making a helmet may be at least because the helmet is round. Fangs curved and tapering to one end are easier to fit into this shape. For a flatter body protection, it is logical to use billet billets.
      2. The issue is not the use of all kinds of jewelry on helmets, including horns, but on the required strength of these additions. Already in a fairly ancient world, people thought of it - if you want to reduce the likelihood of concussion and compression in the neck from a blow to the helmet, make it streamlined. To strike as possible slipped.
      Therefore, it is easiest to recognize that the ancient Mykene simply were not cut with swords (and they could not be cut with rapier swords!), And then strong enough horns on helmets didn’t interfere with their fight. But as soon as swords appeared for chopping blows, all the horns were left mostly with a horse's tail and a crest on the top of the helmet!
      A blow with a club on a helmet is no less, and often more destructive to humans. After all, a club can be much harder. And the fact that the helmet is not pierced does not mean anything if the neck is folded. A bronze and steel chopping sword (even a two-handed one) also most likely will not cut the helmet (even a bronze one) to a sufficient depth to cause a wound on the head, but will only rinse or cut it. But this is not required. Not at that time, not now. It is enough to stun the enemy for 1-2 seconds and until he regains consciousness, finish off with a second blow. To illustrate the effect of a strong blow with a club on a steel helmet, we watch this video at 16-17 and 29th seconds:

      http://vk.com/videos19753281?z=video19753281_155487910

      Two hits - two "lifeless" bodies.
      3. Regarding rapier swords: absolutely usable.
      Even in the Middle Ages, 9/10 of any army was extremely ill-trained. Even among the knights, fullplate mostly had very wealthy nobles. What can we say about this era. An extremely serious wound can be inflicted by an injection even with a wooden pin or with a plastic writing pen. What can we say about the injection with a bronze rapier sword. Any nonsense about the supposedly gigantic weight of a bronze weapon with a more or less solid construction due to illiteracy is how easy it is to inflict a severe wound on a practically unprotected human body. The weight of weapons samples is known. Weapon balance (so important for piercing fencing) too. Direct reconstruction of authentic copies (do not make crash tests on original finds) also shows high efficiency. What else do doubters need? Or doubters will believe only if such an invaluable carcass is punched or hit on the head with such a product?
      1. brn521
        brn521 2 October 2015 14: 41 New
        +2
        Quote: abrakadabre
        An extremely serious wound can be inflicted by an injection even with a wooden pin or with a plastic writing pen.

        Cuts and cuts in battle are much more effective. Being extensive, they disrupt muscles and cause severe bleeding. The enemy with a pierced liver is quite capable of maintaining activity for a rather long time, which is completely unacceptable in battle. Therefore, they preferred stabbing with something wide enough, such as gladius or staghorn. Among the samples presented in the last article, there is a typical toothpick, which should not be fought, but fenced somewhere in fights.
        Quote: Riv
        And the fact that they were all the same done is trivially explained: the high cost of the metal.

        Most likely, the prerequisites were the same as with the appearance of light swords and rapiers in a later period. Personal self-defense, fights, the convenience of prolonged wearing, maintaining personal status.
        Quote: Riv
        If you have a choice to equip three people with skewers, or one with a normal sword, then the choice is obvious

        If there is so much lack of metal, then it is better to stop at the pole arms. A fairly wide blade, mounted on a relatively short shaft, is a classic of the genre. So you can chop, and chop, and cut, and throw if necessary. And it is easy to transfer to a shaft with a different length, weight and strength. Or use without a pole at all as a sword or dagger. I got the impression that such weapons appeared in all cultures in which metal was used. For example, the word "sarissa" most likely did not mean a specific weapon, but such a tip.
        1. Riv
          Riv 2 October 2015 15: 59 New
          +5
          You, sorry, are talking nonsense. And that's why. A spear, a trooper and a sword have fundamentally different radiuses of effective action. And the radius of action of the weapon just determines the type of troops and the mission of the units. The interaction of the military branches is the basis of tactics. Infantry can be equipped with anything, even with brooms - this will certainly affect its tactics. Moreover, one weapon often excludes another. For example, a slinger will not be able to carry a spear and a large shield with him. They will interfere. The first row lancer will not be able to run fast. It has armor and a shield interfering. Etc.

          Have you ever held a cleaver in your hand? Have they tried to chop even a cube of firewood? Put the experiment on yourself: in one hand an ax, in the other - a shield and go to chop logs. :) After ten minutes of the experiment, evaluate your chances against a Viking armed with a bronze knife. Keep in mind that the head of this Viking is much harder to log, and he knows how to dodge, and your "wide blade" will be a little heavier than a cleaver. What? Armor? Yes, the owner of a two-handed weapon is recommended. But we are talking about the Ancient World. The armor was not rich then. And it turns out that someone must stand before you with a shield and a spear in order to keep the bad guys at a distance.

          So the owners of these rapiers understood this. They needed the opportunity to protect the spearman if the enemy managed to break into his dead zone, and no status. Long and thin swords gave them this opportunity. They are not effective against armor, but see above: few people have armor. And the ax ... While you swing the ax once, you can hit the sword three times.
          1. brn521
            brn521 2 October 2015 20: 50 New
            +1
            Quote: Riv
            Have you ever held a cleaver in your hand?

            What side is the cleaver, or something like that? We are talking about typical "spears". Leaf-shaped tip, the total length of the tip with a sleeve in the region of half a meter. About half of them are on the blade. Width 6-8-10 cm. Such weapons were used ... Yes, almost always, throughout history. Many where and for different tasks. Especially relevant in conditions of lack of metal. Here's how the Siberians, in the sense of the local Aborigines, had shit on the pole. She and a knife, and an ax for cutting through the undergrowth (taiga in some places, they say, sheer jungle), and you can lay a casual bear with a good chance. When hunting for a bear, they didn’t use the marching version with a light meter shaft, but increased it to a full-fledged stag. I would also recall how this crap was called.
            Or take the same African assegai. He got an antelope, but he butchered it. The combat introduced by Chaka is especially good.
            In general, the general idea: a wide leaf-shaped tip on the sleeve. There is even a suspicion that at least part of the swords did not come from a baton with flint blades, but from such a tip, which increased and lost the shaft as the available metal reserves increased.
            Quote: Riv
            So the owners of these rapiers understood this.

            I do not know examples of the effective mass use of rapiers in troops. Wherever you spit, either a solid blade, or something chopping and cutting. And toothpicks are either a parade-walking weapon or a status officer. The reason is low strength, poor destructive ability, the need for space for normal use.
            Quote: Riv
            So the owners of these rapiers understood this. They needed an opportunity to protect the spearman

            Here I have some ideas only about the phalanx. With sarisses by the way. Where lancers are protected again only by lancers. Where and how sideways to push these melee masters with rapiers, I can’t even imagine.
            1. kalibr
              2 October 2015 22: 11 New
              +1
              In 1908, a sword intended for a thrust was entered into the cavalry of England. Used in 1 World War II.
              1. brn521
                brn521 3 October 2015 17: 47 New
                0
                Quote: kalibr
                It was used in the 1st World War.

                I did not find anything concrete about the application and effectiveness. Only that which was used as ceremonial weapons by British, Canadian and Australian cavalry units. Well, by design they write that a purely cavalry weapon, created as a counterweight to infantry spears and bayonets. A long hard blade, almost a pistol grip. Chopping and cutting is too difficult and inconvenient, and there is no normal cutting edge, the blade is too thick. When injected into a gallop, you may not have time to pull it out of the wound and the weapon will be lost. In general, a mini spear for cavalry.
            2. Severomor
              Severomor 3 October 2015 00: 13 New
              0
              Leaf-shaped tip, the total length of the tip with a sleeve in the region of half a meter. About half of them are on the blade. Width 6-8-10 cm. Such weapons were used ... Yes, almost always, throughout history

              Not a catfish case?
              1. brn521
                brn521 3 October 2015 17: 49 New
                0
                Quote: Severomor
                Not a catfish case?

                And the cattle too.
            3. The comment was deleted.
          2. Aljavad
            Aljavad 3 October 2015 05: 19 New
            +1
            Have you ever held a cleaver in your hand? Have they tried to chop even a cube of firewood? Put the experiment on yourself: in one hand an ax, in the other - a shield and go to chop logs. :) After ten minutes of the experiment, evaluate your chances against a Viking armed with a bronze knife.


            Go to the nearest museum, look at the bronze ax. You will be amazed at its size and weight. Not a cleaver at all! Giant poleaxes and warhammers are Warcraft, not reality. Even in the Middle Ages, battle axes weighed like a tourist hatchet.

            And you are right about the complementarity of disparate warriors.
            1. Riv
              Riv 3 October 2015 05: 43 New
              -1
              Guys, it's funny to read your posts. The phalanx, which is a deep layer of well-armed and protected infantry and a linear system with a shallow structure, mixes with touching ease. A light ax is confused with an ax (who stuttered about the "wide blade"?) And finally, the main thing: there is no idea about the price of weapons and armor in antiquity.
              Well, in order to hold the hatchet in his hand and wave it to them - there is no question about this. :)))
              1. brn521
                brn521 3 October 2015 18: 48 New
                0
                Quote: Riv
                The phalanx, which is a deep layer of well-armed and protected infantry and a linear system with a shallow structure, mixes with touching ease.

                Depth of construction is determined by the commander based on the situation and depending on the terrain. Two opposing tasks are being solved. On the one hand, it is necessary to ensure the greatest possible coverage. And at the same time, prevent the destruction of their own system.
                Quote: Riv
                And finally, the main thing: there is no idea about the price of weapons and armor in antiquity.

                Bronze ingots and items were stored in treasuries. Well, then I have already substantiated what the advantage of the indicated design is. The same blade acts as a dagger / sword. It can be planted on a shaft of any suitable length, mass and strength. It will take a minimum of time. Can be balanced with a counterweight, not necessarily metal. As a result, one crap can solve many problems, both domestic and military. And what's the use of bronze rapiers? No, it makes sense in them, I do not argue, although I still have not received an answer on where to put the rapists in the phalanx. But the manufacture of such weapons for combat use is precisely this real waste.
                1. abrakadabre
                  abrakadabre 6 October 2015 11: 31 New
                  0
                  To answer your question, you need to know the real number of rapiers at that time compared with the number of lancers, archers. To know the real armor complex of the rapiers specifically compared to other types of wars.
                  Based on the found weapons of prosperous burials, it is difficult to answer your question. However, the total number and range of distribution of these findings suggests a quite considerable distribution of such weapons. Options without abundant decoration suggest that it was not only piece samples for the kings as a ceremonial, but also quite a utilitarian battle.
                  The classic knightly sword in the early Middle Ages, by the way, was also a status estate weapon and very few possess it. And nevertheless, he himself had an independent combat significance.

                  In general, the same Gauls who came and took Rome knew what the system was and had some more or less long swords in service. At least significantly longer than the Roman gladius of later times or the Saxon era of the migration of peoples and the early Middle Ages. And nothing, they found a place in the ranks.

                  As for the foil fenders, these swords can be CONDITIONALLY called rapiers. This is a bronze long piercing sword, with a pronounced basic piercing function. Nevertheless, all the photos clearly show that he had blades and was quite adapted for a chopping blow. Although not as powerful as the later chopping swords. But in order to inflict a very tangible wound on an unarmed enemy, it is not necessary to cut it from one head to the belly with one blow. With a long cut a few cm deep, this blade can handle it.
                  1. brn521
                    brn521 7 October 2015 12: 57 New
                    0
                    Quote: abrakadabre
                    To answer your question, you need to know the actual number of rapiers at that time compared to the number of lancers

                    Here the problem is not the number of rapiers, but where in the lance system of these rapists can be shoved. I think that nowhere. Unless in a separate unit of them. Something like under-cavalry. With a minimum of armor and without shields, which means with high mobility. However, I looked dating. It seems that we are talking about such ancient times in which the main battle formation was a tribal crowd.
                    Quote: abrakadabre
                    However, the total number and range of distribution of these findings suggests a quite considerable distribution of such weapons.

                    Quite possible. In those days, crime flourished. It was necessary to at least look menacing, so as not to suddenly be surrounded by robbers who had just been ordinary local plowmen.
                    Quote: abrakadabre
                    In general, the same Gauls who came and took Rome knew what the system was and were armed with more or less long swords

                    So the Gauls became famous for the fact that they had long chopping swords, which received spears only significantly after that capture of Rome.
                    Quote: abrakadabre
                    This is a bronze long piercing sword, with a pronounced basic piercing function

                    Exactly. We look at the working part - the last third of the blade. The distribution of weight along the blade clearly does not contribute to any serious chopping blow.
                    Quote: abrakadabre
                    With a long cut a few cm deep, this blade can handle it.

                    Is it a blade with a stiffener? Hardly. The result was rather undercuts that could not cope even with a single layer of skin and rely more on the quality of the cutting edge than on force or inertia. So in a duel you need a good guard, or at least a glove made of thick leather. And then the hand is very vulnerable to these undercuts, and there are a lot of hits in it - the most reachable part of the body of the fighter.
                    Quote: abrakadabre
                    these swords CONDITIONALLY can be called rapiers

                    Those samples that are clearly not designed for cutting can hardly be called anything else.
              2. abrakadabre
                abrakadabre 6 October 2015 11: 24 New
                0
                Light ax confused with ax
                First, tell us what a battle ax is. Not cartoony or from computer games, but real. Describe to us the dimensions, weight. In this case, we will consider only the military, and not the ceremonial direction. That is, all sorts of golden temple things are immediately discarded from the arsenal of Roman lictors.
                About the phalanx - it's just you still can’t decide: either you have a phalanx with spears of different lengths, in which the back row beats the most powerful (after all, the spear is longer), then the endless rows of wars with shields like Ajax booked ...
                1. brn521
                  brn521 7 October 2015 13: 44 New
                  0
                  Quote: abrakadabre
                  First, tell us what a battle ax is.

                  By the way, an interesting and slightly strange interpretation of gamers: http://www.lki.ru/text.php?id=571. More precisely, the beginning of the article, the general idea is an ax with a developed blade and counterweight. Something like this

                  The center of mass is reduced to the middle of the handle, which makes it easier to control weapons than a conventional ax. However, the mass is scattered at different ends of the shaft, which allows you to gain good inertia for a chopping strike. only it is not clear why it is necessary. And no noticeable examples from antiquity are also observed.
                  Well, if without this interpretation, then the typical picture is a selected warrior in strong armor with a powerful two-handed ax. He cuts / retracts the spear shafts, breaks into melee and begins to destroy shields, helmets and armor, breaking the enemy system. But this is not antiquity.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 2 October 2015 11: 21 New
    +2
    Dear Vyacheslav !!! Thanks for the article and for the wonderful photos !!!
    I want to add. The peoples of Crete and Cyprus had a cult of the Sea God in the form of a horse. From Greek mythology we know that the Gorgon Medusa gave birth to a son --- Pegasus from Poseidon! And who is the prototype of Medusa? What kind of absurdity is snake hair? Suppose it was, but why did these snakes not bite anyone ???
    My answer is: Jellyfish --- one of the main Goddesses of Cyprus and Crete and “concurrently” a giant octopus unknown to science! A look turning to stone --- not blinking, a “hypnotizing” look of the Octopus, the snake is actually --- 8 tentacles! I ask also for the sake of interest to pay attention to the Lernean Hydra and Skilla --- these are other types of Octopus, but more on that later.
    References:
    Myths of the Peoples of the World, an encyclopedia in 2 volumes. 2 ed. M. Sovetskaya Encyclopedia, 1992
    Illustrated Military-Historical Dictionary. General Encyclopedia of Military Affairs. M. EKSMO. 2007
    Igor Akimushkin. Invertebrate. Excavated animals. Edition 4. M. "Thought". 1999.
    1. Riv
      Riv 2 October 2015 11: 34 New
      +4
      You are not up to date. In fact, Poseidon Medusa simply raped, and even in the temple of Athena (juicy, right?) Athena did not like it and she turned Medusa into a monster. The joke was a success. It is not known how much after that Poseidon toiled impotence (imagine yourself in his place), but he had much fewer children than Zeus.
      In general, Poseidon merged, and Athena realized that she slightly went too far with humor. Hermes was called, he connected Perseus to the case and Medusa glued fins. And already from her corpse appeared a giant with an unpronounceable name and Pegasus. Gemini, yes.
      Here is such a sad story. And what did Medusa have? Rape, bewitched, gutted ... Everyday life of the Ancient World.
    2. kalibr
      2 October 2015 12: 24 New
      +4
      Dear Dmitry! Thanks for the feedback! But I’m afraid that I still won’t be able to write material about the religion of Crete. It is one thing to write what you know well, and another to rewrite from something. Now I looked at the plan for preparing materials for HE. There are a lot of things that I understand much better. Accordingly, the materials will also be better, but you are also interested in this, right? So let’s “reward the Gods — the godly, and Caesarea the Caesareans.” The theme of the Crete-Mycenaean culture will also include shields, spears, bows, axes, "peoples of the sea", chariots. The theme of the crusaders, castles of the crusaders, archaeological finds of ancient crosses are not finished, the samurai are waiting for their turn - but what about without them, various types of armor and weapons ... so it's not up to the octopuses. Look at the vase - admire it! And another problem: when you sweep almost in a run through the archaeological museum (the bus will not wait!), Then you shoot first of all what you know and understand. Therefore, there is simply not enough time for objects of worship. And if you copy from the Web, then many photos do not load! All mine are loaded perfectly, but with strangers the problem is very big. So ... why is it difficult to do when it's easy?
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 2 October 2015 11: 48 New
    +1
    Crete is an older civilization, completely different than the Greeks. A different language, a different script, Phaistos disc. Later civilizations take from the previous ones what they need. This world practice is still alive today. You, dear RIV, can see it directly in the next articles. Violence is also a victory of the New over the Previous.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 2 October 2015 11: 58 New
    0
    Quote: timyr
    Poor hedgehogs already ate them then. After all, a hedgehog, not only valuable fur but also a helmet. But seriously written, write more.

    The ancient people "" everything went into business. "They carefully watched the world around them to improve their lives.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 2 October 2015 12: 40 New
    +1
    Dear Vyacheslav, of course you write about what is closer to you. Somehow again your comment came out much later than time. It happens. Or the reason is in my actions. Thanks again for the article.
  • abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 2 October 2015 13: 06 New
    +3
    I suggest to the distinguished author at the end of the article to insert links to the previous parts of this series. It would be very convenient. I, unfortunately, read the first strongly after the release. And did not have time to participate in our eternal "battle" with militant amateurs from Fomenko smile
    1. kalibr
      2 October 2015 18: 10 New
      0
      Yes, it will be necessary to do so. But you can always go to the profile and there are all the articles for the most different time. A little more time will need to search. But I will consider your advice. But this fomencid with a star ... is something. His skin, you see, will fall apart. The man Otstsy lay in the ice a lot of time, the princess was found dried out ... without preservatives ... but DOESN'T SAVE. And he also takes offense when I write that the bark of the big hemispheres is from oak. And what else?
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 3 October 2015 22: 06 New
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    When I started reading comments some time ago, I read, I returned to the beginning, I see that (----) has become more. I have not noticed for the first time that there are more of them in the dark. Why?
    My favorite Valentin Pikul wrote all his books in his home environment. His speech was on TV.
    In history there have been discoveries "on the edge of the pen" .....
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 4 October 2015 09: 03 New
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    I follow - some do not write, but simply put-- -. And others remove them. That's what.