“Labor Man” becomes an unnecessary element of the system.

The world of the future will not need exploitation in the usual sense. No trade unions, protection of the rights of workers and other struggles for the standardly understood justice in economic activity will not help.

Seventy years ago, the Soviet Union did not have an atomic bomb. Victory was ahead, but there was also devastation, general mobilization, a destroyed and militarized economy, as well as enormous human losses.

But they did not create an atomic bomb. And there was another country, which by this time already had this trump card. The atomic bomb is not just a leaflet with formulas. This is a technological and production cluster. These are advanced developments and huge uranium enrichment plants, this is a mass of related technologies, almost all of them are resource, energy and knowledge intensive.

The Soviet Union was able to understand the priorities and was able to solve the task posed - to ensure nuclear deterrence. Although in the 40s, a few people knew that a large part of the country was working on the creation of an atomic bomb.

Try to present in our time a task comparable in importance and at the same time in complexity with the creation of an atomic bomb in 40's. Is the state obliged to tackle such a task, despite the technological lag and a host of other problems?

In my opinion, it is obliged, and there is such a task. Or rather, these are two interrelated tasks - technological and social.

The world is on the verge of a new socio-economic structure. The so-called labor productivity is growing, and with it the overproduction. An ever smaller percentage of people provides the rest of the population with everything they need. Social systems and economies are finding increasingly sophisticated ways to ensure mutual benefit and mass employment.

The turning point will come when the primitive types of work that today require human participation can be performed by mechanisms. And it is obvious that in the coming decades a universal robot capable of a wide range of jobs will be created - from a builder to a waiter and a cleaner. The appearance of such Robot is no less important than the creation of the atomic bomb.

You can simulate the consequences for different areas of public life, but one phenomenon is fundamentally important. Human labor in the vast majority of fields of application will receive a negative value.

Simply put, people will finally not need each other. What has been present and developed since the beginning of civilization will move to a qualitatively new level.

The system formed around the redistribution of the excess product, provided for the need for the participation of human labor, and such a need was and is the basic element of the current system.

The very concept of "labor productivity" will turn into a fiction if it becomes difficult to press a button. With the advent of the universal robot, a person will finally lose the function of selling his work, remaining only a potential consumer. Billions of people will lose the opportunity to offer something to each other.

In a certain sense, an economic “zombie apocalypse” will arise, caused not by illness, but by total uselessness. Billions of unnecessary to each other and the system of human individuals seeking food and socialization.

Pay attention to the popularity and abundance of films about “zombie apocalypses”, as well as dystopian films, in which the main part of humanity leads a beggarly existence, despite the rapid development of technology: all these “Resident Evil”, “Hunger Games” and “Oblivions” .

I thought it was just an artistic premonition, but now I think that in addition to the creative part, technologies like “self-fulfilling prophecies” and “Overton Window” are also involved.

All these films are not just fantasies, but quite realistic sketches on the theme of the world of the future, which prepare and train us for this future. Their realism is not in detail, but in principle - billions live in chaos, units enjoy life.

It is fundamentally important to realize that the world of the future will not need exploitation in the usual sense. No trade unions, protection of the rights of workers and other struggles for the standardly understood justice in economic activity will not help. The point is not to operate, but to wither away its necessity.

“Labor Man” becomes an unnecessary element of the system. Mutual need will arise only when moving to a lower stage of development - how savages take their place in the tribe, but are useless in the city.

During the transition period, the system controlling the creation and operation of universal robots will realize and increase its economic advantage and technological gap. At the same time, the political, moral and technological basis of segregation and “clearing” the world from “extra” people will be created. Owners and creative and highly skilled personnel serving them will clear the living space for themselves.

The main global instrument of regulation of the system will be war. Countries that are not members of an elite club will not even be suppliers of resources (this is because — since), but a testing ground for a war of a “production and utilization” nature.

The war should absorb the “extra” human lives from both sides, compensate for the total overproduction, give controllability and meaningfulness in the transition period. In addition, it must draw a dividing line between the Hellenes and the Morlocks of the future world.

With the proviso that the “morlocks” of the future are just extra human material to be disposed of or funny savages like Australian aborigines and tribes in Amazonia, and not an object of exploitation.

After going through the “transitional” period, a system of new “Hellenism” will probably be formed, based on the ownership of certain privileges - the right to land and in general resources, including rights based on membership in the group controlling resources and technologies. The bottom layer will be professionals who can perform highly skilled or creative work.

The economy will be closer to the feudal system with its closed-cycle natural economy, where it is not the market that is important, but control over sufficient resources and the ability to protect this control (or swear to a strong overlord). In this case, the place of the "people" will take robots.

It is important to realize that in a system based on private ownership in production and finance, control over resources and the environment, in the event of loss of the value of human labor, the development of a situation apocalyptic for the majority of the world's population is inevitable. The exchange of labor is replaced by the provision of access to controlled goods.

The only defensive mechanism - the system of democratic elections, which creates the value of the owner of the “voice” - has practically lost its significance due to the development of manipulation technologies and the boundary conditions of the “elections”. In the idea of ​​destroying “quilted jackets” that captured the minds of Ukrainians, I see the participation of specialists working out the technology of separating “extra” people into mutually annihilating parts.

An alternative future may only be the one in which a counterbalance system has been created, based on other principles of social order, which would imply the absence of the need for depopulation and the disposal of “extra” people.

Attempts to oppose systems based on the same “market” principles will not change anything, the overall development of the situation will go the same way. Just as attempts to stop technical progress are doomed to failure.

Returning to today's realities and interrelated tasks (technological and social), currently facing, we can formulate the following:

1) Those states or a union of states that do not want to be a victim of a “robo-apocalypse” and expect to retain their existence should acquire a modern analogue of the “atomic bomb”, are obliged to ensure the development of their own cybernetics, including component and program level, as well as energy supply issues. .

Creating your own IT-base and universal robot should be a modern “nuclear project”. The processor plus the program plus energy is a universal robot. A project of this kind is a matter of survival.

2) Such a state should ensure the formation of an economic model capable of functioning in conditions of negative cost of mass labor while maintaining and developing the population level.

This model should combine the realization of the positive role of the small owner and entrepreneur with state control or ownership of resources, system-forming and infrastructure enterprises, and the public habitat.

The state should ensure the generation of socially significant and approved tasks, the participation of the broad masses of the population in the solution of which should form the basis of the consumption system and the differences in its level. A necessary condition for such a system is state control over the financial system and the estimated nature of the budget.

In ideological terms, such a state should be the exact opposite of social Darwinism. Must assume the value of human life is not in the criteria of "success" and conditional utility for others, expressed in the amount of money received, but the value of life as a "thing in itself".

The socially recognized value can be the development of each individual, and the system of education can be lifelong. The basis of this approach may be official religious syncretism. A union of the BRICS type may well cope with such a task. If it is formulated in time.

Comments

[Revolver]

I remembered the children's fairy tale "Urfin Deuce". Unpretentious content. The would-be villain gained access to a magic powder capable of animating wooden bolts. His first idea was to give himself workers. But after thinking carefully, he made a soldier. And the soldiers forced the local population to work for him.
First of all, robots will find military, and not economic, application. Well, leading to a common denominator of all, relatively speaking, Papuans, it will be possible to tackle the economy.
But the tale had a good end, and good conquered evil - well, how could it be without it? And here for those whom robots will kill or replace, a good end is not provided. In rich countries, for such people there will be a thread like the German Sozial or the American Welfare, and in poor countries, alas, ah.
Conclusion - get an education in order to become one whom robots cannot replace, or they can very soon.

[one]

Quote: Nagan

Conclusion - get an education in order to become one whom robots cannot replace, or they can very soon.

done right.
just don’t get it, but - buy the opportunity to receive.
and also buy medical care, protection of the law and from the law,
buy the dream of retirement
buy the opportunity to participate in the political life of the country, etc., etc.
and it will be bad for someone who can’t buy all this.
so they will offer to capture all this with weapons in their hands.
and robots ... well, so biological robots are cheaper and reproduce themselves.
only the dreamers of the "golden billion" are unlikely to succeed. destroy most of humanity, and nothing more!
and the more they destroy, the deeper they will dig into the bunkers and isolate themselves from humanity.
and so on until one more Shambhala and Atlantis comes out - a repository of inaccessible knowledge and technologies, whose slaves they will become, until time turns it all into dust.
the higher the person’s dependence on technology, the greater the likelihood of a man-made disaster and the slide of civilization into the cave age.

[vladimirZ]

Alternative option (described in the article) the future can only be one in which a counterbalanced system is created, based on other principles of social structure, which would imply the absence of the need for depopulation and disposal of “extra” people.
(from article)

This option for an alternative future should be a socialist society of equal rights of people with a nationwide one, i.e. public ownership of mineral resources and means of production in the interests of the whole society, and not of individuals.
In the capitalist liberal future, people are waiting for the depopolation and utilization of "superfluous" people described by the author, which is already being carried out in today's Russia, without any introduction of robotics, but with the same goal of reducing the number of "unnecessary" people.

[My doctor]

Quote: vladimirZ

In the capitalist liberal future, the depopolation and utilization of "superfluous" people, described by the author, awaits people, which is already taking place in today's Russia.
So think people not only about themselves, but also about their future descendants.

American ethologist John Calhoun conducted a series of experiments on mice in the years 60-70. In the experiment, UNIVERSE-25 created paradise conditions for him: unlimited supplies of food and drink, the absence of predators and diseases, enough space for reproduction. However, as a result, the entire colony of mice died out. Calhoun believed that the reason was population density, although there was plenty in total. (see http://www.interesmir.ru/eksperiment-vselennaya-25/), but I don’t think so. The main thing was the dissatisfaction with the social status of the individual in the population, when it could not squeeze the older generation, there are other very interesting experiments on the importance hierarchy for rats (you will find the link yourself ) In the human population, the same thing, in the absence of life threats, the self-preservation instinct fades into the background, and the main thing for a person is not the struggle for the survival of their genes, but the achievement of a high SOCIAL STATUS (see soap operas), but as you understand, there are not enough social roles with acceptable social. status. And now we see the largest number of suicides among the stronger sex.
But the article itself is neither plus nor minus, in a word amateurism, not worth evaluating.

[Vladimir73]

Quote: MyVrach

In the human population, everything is the same in the absence of life threats, the instinct of self-preservation fades into the background, and for a person it becomes the main thing not to fight for the survival of their genes, but to achieve a high SOCIAL STATUS

I agree with you. This statement is correct for people raised in a consumer society and thinking within the framework of this society (the more material wealth you have, the more successful you are (better) than others). But the status can be calculated in the system of other values, other priorities are not so primitive.

Quote: MyVrach

But the article itself is neither plus nor minus, in a word amateurism, not worth evaluating.

I do not agree here. The author of this "scarecrow" raises an old, worn out topic about replacing people with machines. A tool of logic cannot replace intuition, even when creating processors of enormous speed and software capable of processing billions of operations per second. Such an aggregate can simulate the process of thinking - maybe, but within the framework of its own program. A person can "step" outside his "program" - there are many examples in history and everyday life.

[DRA-88]

Quote: MyVrach

In the human population, everything is the same in the absence of life threats, the instinct of self-preservation fades into the background, and for a person it becomes the main thing not to fight for the survival of their genes, but to achieve a high SOCIAL STATUS

Doesn't it seem strange to you that you are comparing mice with human society?
Or are you trying to promote the thesis "man is a wolf to man?
And it seems that everyone studied in the same schools, and went to pioneer camps together, and went out on community work days, and on May Day demonstrations ... And
Now the man is a wolf !!! Fuck you!

[My doctor]

Doesn't it seem strange to you that you are comparing mice with human society?

No, it seems strange to me that you did not know this. There are sciences that study man and society, but because of the considerations of humanism, they can’t always experiment on people, that’s where scientists get out of their way. Even such sciences that study the human brain (recognized as the most complex object in the universe) move thanks to our mice.

Now the man is a wolf !!! Fuck you!

Quote: DRA-88

Now the man is a wolf !!! Fuck you!

And that you will bite me? watch this moment completely, and I hope you yourself will take away that the taxi driver projects his inner world on those around him, he himself drove himself into this position.

[DRA-88]

Quote: MyVrach

I hope you yourself take away that the taxi driver projects his inner world on others, he drove himself into this position.

Being determines consciousness point.

Quote: MyVrach

There are sciences that study man and society, but because of the considerations of humanism, they can’t always experiment on people, that’s where scientists get out of their way.

You consider a person as a representative of a biological species, and I am telling you about a person, as a social being, as a member of society, since the modern development of a person as a species of Homo sapiens is no longer carried out according to the laws of biological survival, but according to the laws of social development.

[My doctor]

Quote: DRA-88

You consider a person as a representative of a biological species, and I am telling you about a person, as a social being, as a member of society, since the modern development of a person as a species of Homo sapiens is no longer carried out according to the laws of biological survival, but according to the laws of social development. hi

For over a century, thanks to Obstetrics and other medical achievements, we are not dependent on natural and sexual selection to the same extent as before. But the problem is that everyone sees the social laws of development differently, they do not have generally accepted formulations, but they are stochastic. Each manipulates them as it is favorable to him, the law that draws where you turn there and left. We can’t even imagine how many people are working in this field, and we can’t even count the political, social sciences, there are so many of them that there aren’t enough names, and there are people like Social Sociology, for example.

[MichaelS]

I agree with the statement about rats and social status, I do not agree with the assessment of the article. In my opinion, the article is very practical: it gives a very probable version of the development of mankind, many of the signs of which are already clearly showing recently. And if cars are the prospect of a more distant future, then a fierce struggle for

the divide between the "Hellenes" and the "Morlocks" of the future world

flares up now. And the Russians here, of course, are not assigned the role of "Hellenes". One can discuss the recipes, but a clear understanding of the challenges shakes consciousness, and awareness (at a wide public level) makes it possible to better mobilize forces to counteract such a development of events.

[the polar]

Stupid and illiterate article. One of the thousands, when the author picking up the "tops" begins to thoughtfully "pick in the nose" extracting the revelations of his own composition. And he will not even bother to somehow justify them.
There are more than three billion beggars on Earth who are constantly starving, and the author worries about "overproduction"

[Petrix]

Quote: Polar

Stupid and illiterate article.

The article is very thoughtful. Raises the question above the current political fuss. He finds danger and tries to find solutions.

Quote: Polar

There are more than three billion beggars on Earth who are constantly starving, and the author worries about "overproduction"

Why are there beggars? Because no one needs them as workers. Now. Capitalism fosters dominance and produces poverty, which is not fought for by eliminating the cause, but by the disposal of the poor. Already, overproduction is forcing to destroy surpluses in order to maintain the level of prices in the market. Do not give out to the starving for free, but destroy it.
Beggars are not formed because they are dumber. They are made by the system. She also prevents them from getting to their feet. Yes, not only does not help, but it interferes.

[Alex_Popovson]

Conclusion - get an education in order to become one whom robots cannot replace, or they can very soon.

I will continue my literary review. There was such an epic, "Dune" was called. So before the events described in the books, the Butlerian Jihad took place, and all computers were destroyed.

the abundance of films about the "zombie apocalypse", as well as dystopian films

There is no other way to say "Lol". The author has a bad trip.
As a result, the author describes purely hypothetical very, very non-soon events. It seems that the pipe was too powerful, minus.

[Basarev]

And yet, I stand for full automation of labor, so that a person can only live easily, freely and beautifully. And in order to have something easy, free and beautiful to live on, there must be special unconditional payments, which are paid only for the fact of your existence. And the budget for these payments will be the difference in the net profitability of the person and the machine. Relatively speaking, the machine does not need a salary, pension, compensation, etc. So, all this money that employers spend on wage earners is supposed to be spent on these unconditional payments.

[Vladimir73]

why do you hate people so much ?!

[Basarev]

To wish people an easy, free and beautiful life - is that really hate?

[Alex_Popovson]

To wish people an easy, free and beautiful life is to hate

This is similar to feeding a diabetic candy. Sweet and tasty, but dangerous. All the same, labor was made of a man from a monkey.

[Vladimir73]

Quote: Basarev

To wish people an easy, free and beautiful life - is that really hate?

Are you trying to remove the desire for development from a person? After all, if everything that you need is received without effort and, as it were, by itself, the degree of survival of such a person? After all, such a "person" will die of thirst at the well (since no one brought him this water). Something like that.
If you think that I am wrong, then remember how many times in YOUR life you have come across a situation when, when asked to do something better, you get the answer: “why?

[Petrix]

Quote: Alex_Popovson

As a result, the author describes purely hypothetical very, very non-soon events.

How many millennia did people run with batons? Over the past 100 years, a giant technological leap. When did the first calculators appear? Long? And already the Internet, mobile phones ... Have you seen a robotic conveyor or military robots? Cars ALREADY drive without a driver!
Apocalyptic films are really full. Or do you not know that the transfer of information is management?

[lozh76]

Yes, this is already happening all of Moscow (Hellenes) lives due to the fact that it has blocked sales markets to manufacturers (Morlocks), they buy for a penny, they sell in three ways, where do we get these prices from

[valokordin]

Quote: lozh76

Yes, this is already happening all of Moscow (Hellenes) lives due to the fact that it has blocked sales markets to manufacturers (Morlocks), they buy for a penny, they sell in three ways, where do we get these prices from

I agree, and Moscow has turned into an all-Russian bloodsucker who sucks out all the vital juices of the country. Taxpayers are almost all in Moscow, Moscow is fattening, giving the country surplus in insufficient quantities. An interesting situation has developed in the country, if Moscow is robbing the whole country, regional centers are robbing areas, and there is no one to rob regions, they are standing with their outstretched hands for subsidies.

[one]

Quote: valokordin

Quote: lozh76

Yes, this is already happening all of Moscow (Hellenes) lives due to the fact that it has blocked sales markets to manufacturers (Morlocks), they buy for a penny, they sell in three ways, where do we get these prices from

I agree, and Moscow has turned into an all-Russian bloodsucker who sucks out all the vital juices of the country. Taxpayers are almost all in Moscow, Moscow is fattening, giving the country surplus in insufficient quantities. An interesting situation has developed in the country, if Moscow is robbing the whole country, regional centers are robbing areas, and there is no one to rob regions, they are standing with their outstretched hands for subsidies.

such screams, squeals that someone is feeding someone, we have already heard plenty.
"Ukraine feeds Russia", Russia feeds Ukraine "," Uzbekistan feeds Russia-Russia feeds Uzbekistan ", etc.
we already went through it !!!
provocateur you, my friend, however.

[Nayhas]

Quote: Someone

provocateur you, my friend, however

Muscovite said crawling out of a Bentley ...

[one]

Quote: Nayhas

Quote: Someone

provocateur you, my friend, however

Muscovite said crawling out of a Bentley ...

Well, you need to go to the Maidan, there the loudest shout is "the Muscovites' oaths are to blame for everything."
by the way, I'm not from the Moscow region.

[ilyaspb]

So they sailed. Not satisfied with something in Russia, you immediately "go to the Maidan." And you are not alone in seeing situations like this. Over the past year, it has become simply impossible to express one's opinion about the internal life of the country. They are immediately registered as oppositionists, traitors, Maidanites, and whoever goes further is also called Geyropeans. The dialogue in society simply stopped. Only liberals, who do not represent the people at all, open their mouths.
The situation with the distribution of taxpayers in the country is terrible. Putin also raised this topic (by the way, send him a letter to go to the Maidan, since he has the same opinion). City-forming enterprises, for example, oil refineries, in many regions over the past 10 years have been re-registered in Moscow and St. Petersburg, without paying taxes to the local budget, the region is declared subsidized, subsidies are used to put political pressure on the regional leadership. Or is this situation interesting to you only when it occurs with the Ukrainian Donbas?

[DRA-88]

Greetings, Ilya!

Quote: ilyaspb

Not satisfied with something in Russia, you immediately "go to the Maidan." And you are not alone in seeing situations like this. Over the past year, it has become simply impossible to express one's opinion about the internal life of the country. They are immediately registered as oppositionists, traitors, Maidanists, and whoever goes further is also called Gayropeans. The dialogue in society simply stopped.

Perfectly said !!! Powerful PR propaganda works harmoniously, as soon as you criticize the government, immediately "white tape" or "liberal", although the most important liberal in our country is the president, which he has repeatedly stated to the whole world.

Quote: ilyaspb

in many regions over the past 10 years in Moscow and St. Petersburg, taxes are not paid to the local budget, the region is declared subsidized, subsidies are used to put political pressure on the leadership of the region. Or is this situation interesting to you only when it occurs with the Ukrainian Donbas?

The continuation of such a state policy will undoubtedly lead to a social explosion, and in this sense only the snickering authorities will be to blame, and all the PR invents about the 125th columns, about the corrupting hand of the West, are tales for illiterate suckers!

[RU-Officer]

But I dare to object to you, dear "someone" / Vadim, excuse me ...
It's no secret that colossal resources across all of Russia have already been bought up and continue to be bought up by "effective managers" (earlier they were called simpler - crooks) from Moscow and St. Petersburg. The legally supported centralization of financial and tax flows is a nail in the lid of our common coffin (meaning the people around the Moscow Ring Road). And all this obscenity is covered by a "fig leaf" called "effective restructuring." And on the periphery sit such zits-chairmen Pounds (remember such a colorful character from "The Golden Calf"?). This is so, in short ...
Therefore, I will gladly support comrade "Nayhas":

Muscovite said crawling out of a Bentley ...

[one]

Quote: RU-Officer

But I dare to object to you, dear "someone" / Vadim, excuse me ...
It's no secret that colossal resources across all of Russia have already been bought up and continue to be bought up by "effective managers" (earlier they were called simpler - crooks) from Moscow and St. Petersburg. The legally supported centralization of financial and tax flows is a nail in the lid of our common coffin (meaning the people around the Moscow Ring Road). And all this obscenity is covered by a "fig leaf" called "effective restructuring." And on the periphery sit such zits-chairmen Pounds (remember such a colorful character from "The Golden Calf"?). This is so, in short ...
Therefore, I will gladly support comrade "Nayhas":

Muscovite said crawling out of a Bentley ...

But they themselves did not try to look beyond the MKAD?
than Chelyabinsk rogues, for example, are worse, or Sakhalin rogues or some others, why are you belittling them like that?
you are behind and divorced from life, from reality.

and the beginning of squabbles like "who feeds whom", this is the PROVOCATION - this was the beginning of the collapse of our Motherland!
What, there is a desire to continue further?

[ilyaspb]

There will be no collapse on this principle, if the production is simply registered at their actual address. Gos. the budget will not lose from this, taxes will simply go to it from other regions, and production centers will get rid of the stigma of subsidies. And if it goes on like this, then yes, an outburst of popular anger can be, not just like on the Maidan, where you are sending everyone, but like in the Donbas.

[Basarev]

You just need to stop the snickering Moscow and force it to take away from it that which does not belong to it, if it does not heed the voice of reason, that’s all.

[ilyaspb]

I did not call for this. We do not need a civil war. Naobort, cautioned that everything could end just like that. Nobody even seriously tried political methods of protest in this regard.
And to kill simply because of money is immoral and unworthy.

[Basarev]

However, Moscow is doing just that - killing regions for money. Absorbed in superskoshey, Moscow survived from the mind, it is always not enough for it. And in the regions, money is a matter of physical survival, by the way.

[ilyaspb]

1. Regions partly kill themselves by not resisting evil.
2. The civil war will put an end to Russia as a great state. Although, perhaps this is what you want. Always when wars between specific leaders began in Russia, Western intervention began, resources passed to Neighbors. Regions under this scenario are also in flight.
3. To head a campaign to Moscow for such a reason can only be moral, which after it will wrap the same regions already in your pocket. By the way, I consider such a freak anyone who calls to kill their fellow citizens on a regional basis.
4. Without the Moscow region, to be a great power will not work, even if it is possible to avoid intervention, since there are important elements of strategic industrial areas. Even without Ukraine it turned out to be difficult, to say nothing of the main scientific center of the country.
5. You probably have never buried friends who died in wars, since money is more important to you than human lives.

[Tor hummer]

Quote: ilyaspb

I did not call for this. We do not need a civil war. Naobort, cautioned that everything could end just like that. Nobody even seriously tried political methods of protest in this regard.
And to kill simply because of money is immoral and unworthy.

This is exactly what you called for. And all those who made similar statements.

Kstiti, advice to you, look at the Ukrainians, because they, too, are to blame for everything "snickering Muscovites" and "Moscow, which takes everything away and unfairly redistributes." Under these slogans, the USSR, your beloved, was falling apart. Here's a leaflet from those times:


Everything is exactly the same as what you and others like you say: "snickering Moscow", "unfair redistribution", etc., etc., with a listing of some economic facts, such as "get rid of Moscow's colonial policy and live like in Europe, on a grand scale."

[ilyaspb]

How long have we switched to you?
About Moscow, taking away from the regions, did not say anything. He spoke about the owners of large capital, re-registering enterprises not at the place of production. Even the question of the legality of the acquired capital did not raise. A purely administrative problem of an economic nature. If you remove it, it will become one point of tension less.
About colonial politics and Europe, this is just your sick imagination. Moreover, a little higher, I fully expressed my point of view regarding the impossibility of confrontation with Moscow. But why read all the messages in a row, and even more so, try, if you just want to express your opinion, right?
The third time I ask a question. Putin said the same thing about the need to register enterprises at the place of production. Is he like me too?

[Ivan_Anatolich]

And how do you see it?

[one]

Quote: ilyaspb

... just not like on the Maidan, where you send everyone, ...

juggle only now don’t bother!
1) I do not send everyone to the Maidan.
2) I am against the Maidan.
3) especially for those pretending - "mine, yours does not understand" - I consider those who start bazaars "who feeds whom", trolls-provocateurs wanting the collapse of Russia.
according to this method, the collapse of Ukraine began.
for example, Donetsk was also called a "depressed" and subsidized region.
in the same way, in the USSR and Ukraine, propaganda led to the collapse of these countries.
Moscow's opposition to other regions, the desire to use feelings such as envy (getting out of Bentley ..), the desire to knock their heads together, this is far from a simple discussion of the current situation.
ps
had no doubt that there are many "sent Cossacks"
and the army, it is also in Africa - the army, as they say plus and minus signs.
I just think that adequate website visitors will figure out who is who!

[ilyaspb]

You are color blind. You only see white and black. And there are, you know, shades and other colors in general. Specific shortcomings of the economic model were pointed out, which can be easily eliminated in a couple of months, in contrast to the demands of abstract "deoligarchization", with which all Maidans began. You call this a provocation, which is very reminiscent of the informers who are now handing over their neighbors in Ukraine for everyday criticism of the authorities under their breath.
Canning a growing problem will cause an explosion. The only way out is to stop the growth of the problem.
No one claimed that you love Maidan. You are only equating everyone who has their own idea of ​​the best economic course with the maydauns.
I repeat my question. Putin expressed the same thoughts as me. He, too, is a provocateur, and is he a Cossack? Or is Putin just good, so you don't discuss him, no matter what he says? Or does your FFM simply not allow you to discuss anything, but only brand them as provocateurs?

[one]

Quote: ilyaspb

You are color blind. You only see white and black. And there are, you know, shades and other colors in general. Specific shortcomings of the economic model were pointed out, which can be easily eliminated in a couple of months, in contrast to the demands of abstract "deoligarchization", with which all Maidans began. You call this a provocation, which is very reminiscent of the informers who are now handing over their neighbors in Ukraine for everyday criticism of the authorities under their breath.
Canning a growing problem will cause an explosion. The only way out is to stop the growth of the problem.
No one claimed that you love Maidan. You are only equating everyone who has their own idea of ​​the best economic course with the maydauns.
I repeat my question. Putin expressed the same thoughts as me. He, too, is a provocateur, and is he a Cossack? Or is Putin just good, so you don't discuss him, no matter what he says? Or does your FFM simply not allow you to discuss anything, but only brand them as provocateurs?

ah well done ...
Well, for sure - a provocateur!
and he called it a snitch, and sewed it on, and wrote himself and Putin on the same command, while as in the joke, "whoever touches a lion will deal with me"
Yyy ...
I gave you a plus sign for that.

[ilyaspb]

The question was never answered. Only because of the question at the level "through which pipe to pour water into the pool" they inflated political confrontation. You are more likely to mold the templates. They called them a provocateur, they also indirectly called them a separatist. They also appealed to adequate users. That is, I and I agreed with the diagnosis. Just like a bulk company "what we say is true, but what you call your opinion is a provocation, Surkov's propaganda, idiocy"
I didn’t call a snitch. He said that you have a motivation and the system of binary oppositions is similar.
I also did not put myself on the same team with Putin. I consider this question in general extremely clear for any educated person. Just Putin is an object of worship of the local public and it is very interesting if you can overcome this contradiction.

[Tor hummer]

Quote: RU-Officer

But I dare to object to you, dear "someone" / Vadim, excuse me ...
It's no secret that colossal resources across all of Russia have already been bought up and continue to be bought up by "effective managers" (earlier they were called simpler - crooks) from Moscow and St. Petersburg. The legally supported centralization of financial and tax flows is a nail in the lid of our common coffin (meaning the people around the Moscow Ring Road). And all this obscenity is covered by a "fig leaf" called "effective restructuring." And on the periphery sit such zits-chairmen Pounds (remember such a colorful character from "The Golden Calf"?). This is so, in short ...
Therefore, I will gladly support comrade "Nayhas":

Muscovite said crawling out of a Bentley ...

And the governor of Sakhalin, who has a pen for 3 billion, is also a Muscovite?

[ilyaspb]

How is this ordinary embezzler connected with the problem of centralizing financial flows? Or in our time, the presence of one fact cancels the presence / makes it impossible to discuss another fact. It is impossible to reduce life in the country to one problem, after the solution of which everyone will live happily.

[one]

Quote: ilyaspb

How is this ordinary embezzler connected with the problem of centralizing financial flows? Or in our time, the presence of one fact cancels the presence / makes it impossible to discuss another fact. It is impossible to reduce life in the country to one problem, after the solution of which everyone will live happily.

this is not an "ordinary" embezzler, but a high-ranking one.
that the style of your reasoning is very similar to the style of his witnesses.
do you happen to be a member of a sect?
I ask you not to take it for an insult, just curiosity.

[ilyaspb]

Extraordinary embezzler, good. How does this fact cancel out the fact that the oil refinery must pay income tax to the region, the transport network of which it operates, so that funds are promptly allocated for the maintenance of the necessary communications? Now, if the leadership of the region quarrels with any federal ministry on any issue, one can observe bureaucratic wars, from which the inhabitants of the region suffer. Or do you think that money in the regions will be stolen, and the crystal clear authorities of Moscow and the Moscow region will bring everything to the state budget? Why should any proposal from the sphere of taxation be indicated instead of criticizing the proposal itself "and in Khabarovsk .." or simply branded as a provocateur? Like grandmothers, or even worse, schoolchildren.
No, I haven't even met these wonderful people yet, but the comparison is interesting. What are the formal attributes by which our thinking is similar?

[Tor hummer]

Quote: ilyaspb

Or do you think that money will be stolen in the regions, and the crystal-clear authorities of Moscow and the Moscow region will bring everything to the state budget?

Dear, please explain what you mean by "the authorities of Moscow and the Moscow region"? And how are they related to the "centralization of financial flows" and how, in your opinion, are they involved in the redistribution of funds to the regions and theft?

[ilyaspb]

1. How did you start to relate? Does the lack of confidence due to the inability to understand the topic in which you are poking like a blind kitten make you poke and be familiar?
2. What is power? Take a look at Wikipedia, and then apply it to two subjects of the federation - Moscow and Moscow Region. If it works, go to step 3. If you don’t understand, don’t despair - the site is full of topics about Americans and Ukraine. You can defeat both in the comments.
3. Congratulations! You did it. Now about their connection with the centralization of flows. The very problem of centralization is that large enterprises from all over the country are registered in three entities - Moscow, St. Petersburg and the Moscow region. Therefore, tax flows are simplified as follows: Omsk Oil Refinery - St. Petersburg - state. budget - line ministries - Omsk budget (in the form of subsidies). All this time, I proposed to rebuild the scheme as follows: Omsk Oil Refinery - Omsk budget - state. budget - subsidies anywhere. That is the whole problem.

[Tor hummer]

Quote: ilyaspb

3. Congratulations! You did it. Now about their connection with the centralization of flows. The very problem of centralization is that large enterprises from all over the country are registered in three entities - Moscow, St. Petersburg and the Moscow region. Therefore, tax flows are simplified as follows: Omsk Oil Refinery - St. Petersburg - state. budget - line ministries - Omsk budget (in the form of subsidies). All this time, I proposed to rebuild the scheme as follows: Omsk Oil Refinery - Omsk budget - state. budget - subsidies anywhere. That is the whole problem.

Item 4. The authorities of Moscow and Moscow oblast are not related to the federal government. The authorities of Moscow and Moscow oblast deal only with the affairs of Moscow and Moscow oblast: road repair, infrastructure, social issues, etc. They are not related to the direction of financial flows.
The policy of "centralization" comes from the federal government, and not from regional (which include the authorities of Moscow and Moscow region).
All questions to the federal authorities, to the party of power, to the cabinet of ministers and to the president personally - the policy of "centralizing" everything and everything comes from them.
And this policy itself is carried out by the government, relying on the legitimacy that the people have endowed them.
What is our president's rating? Recently, 85%, and in the elections he wins with a stable advantage, and the residents of "Trans-Urals" vote for him especially actively, where he is 100% popular. And then the residents of the "Trans-Urals" begin to make claims to Moscow and to Muscovites, they say "you have centralized everything there" - but, excuse me, dear ones, this is the policy of the person for whom you voted in the presidential elections. You yourself voted for it. Moscow and Muscovites have nothing to do with it.

[ilyaspb]

Okay. For the fourth time I repeat my question. Putin said the same thing as I say today that taxpayers must be returned to the regions. How is the centralization of the tax flow is his policy, if he personally spoke out for decentralization?
But, most likely, I will not get an answer, because when you say "Putin" your brain turns off and you have already ignored this question three times.

begin to make claims against Moscow and Muscovites

Okay. Last try. Replace "Moscow" with "Peter" everywhere in my posts and I will subscribe to each of them. It turns out that I am now making claims to Petersburgers?

[Tor hummer]

Quote: ilyaspb

Okay. For the fourth time I repeat my question. Putin said the same thing as I say today that taxpayers must be returned to the regions. How is the centralization of the tax flow is his policy, if he personally spoke out for decentralization?

Ahahahaahaha)))))


Putin can say anything. Chubais and Gaidar also promised to build a Western-style market economy in 500 days.

You need to look not what the person says, but what he does.
And for the last 15 years, Putin has been doing the same thing, and people are voting for him. And if they vote, it means that everything suits them.

[Tor hummer]

And to raise empty talk about unfair distribution and centralization is generally useless. Do not want this? Do not vote for the people and parties that pursue this policy.

And since the current government has sky-high ratings and people vote for them and support them, then you can only blame yourself.

[ilyaspb]

Absolutely everything is measured by the concept of "Justice" only by children and id.iots. Where you take yourself is up to you. It was about efficiency. For the fifth time I repeat - the decentralization of taxation was proposed by your beloved Putin a few years before me.

[Tor hummer]

Quote: ilyaspb

Absolutely everything is measured by the concept of "Justice" only by children and id.iots. Where you take yourself is up to you. It was about efficiency. For the fifth time I repeat - the decentralization of taxation was proposed by your beloved Putin a few years before me.

Putin proclaimed a "vertical of power" with the centralization of everything and everyone. This is what he does and people vote for him. So people like it so much that taxes from Gazprom are paid in St. Petersburg, and from UVZ in Moscow.

[Tor hummer]

Quote: ilyaspb

How is this ordinary embezzler connected with the problem of centralizing financial flows? Or in our time, the presence of one fact cancels the presence / makes it impossible to discuss another fact. It is impossible to reduce life in the country to one problem, after the solution of which everyone will live happily.

So what's the problem? In the "centralization of financial flows" or in mass theft at all levels of government, in all regions? And how are Moscow and Muscovites to blame for this?

[ilyaspb]

Your post showed that you did not understand the message you quoted. The problem is both. Where is at least one word of mine about the guilt of Moscow and the Muscovites? It is absolutely obvious that Moscow owners of capital are comfortable with taxation in Moscow, but this is harmful to the functioning of the regions. Therefore, enterprises must be registered at the place of production, and not at the place of transfer of the head office.

[Tor hummer]

Quote: ilyaspb

It is absolutely obvious that Moscow owners of capital are conveniently taxed in Moscow,

Why "Moscow capital owners" ??? The overwhelming majority of the oligarchs are not Muscovites, but these very Sakhalin people, the Far East, Siberians and other Urals. And they generally do not live in Russia. What does the "Moscow capital owners" have to do with it ?? What are you talking about?

[DRA-88]

Quote: Tor Hummer

Tor hummer

Greetings Sergey!
Yes, do not swear at your opponent
He meant apparently the powers that be and the financial flows concentrated in the capital.
And to the simple People in the regions and in the capital everyone is equally sick.
It's just that everyone expects action from Muscovites!

[Tor hummer]

Quote: DRA-88

Greetings Sergey!
Yes, do not swear at your opponent
He meant apparently the powers that be and the financial flows concentrated in the capital.
And to the simple People in the regions and in the capital everyone is equally sick.
It's just that everyone expects action from Muscovites!

Well, you need to say so, and not post chants from the series "maskaliff on knives."

Only now I want to convey to my opponent that there is such a thing as a "federal official", and if this official is in Moscow, it does not mean that he is a "Moscow official" and Moscow is robbing everyone. If the capital is moved to Yekaterinburg, then all these officials will simply change their place of deployment, and everything else will remain the same.

[ilyaspb]

What kind of nonsense, not related to the topic? What difference does it make who the oligarchs are and where do they live? The owner of capital may be a group, company, corporation. The phrase about the head office clearly did not reach your consciousness. What does this have to do with a federal official, to whom money goes through other people's municipal budgets?
Large taxpayers from all over the country are registered in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

[ilyaspb]

Yes, no actions of Muscovites are needed. We need a law fixing the taxation of Moscow factories in Moscow, St. Petersburg in St. Petersburg, Chelyabinsk in Chelyabinsk.

[Tor hummer]

Quote: ilyaspb

Your post showed that the message you quoted did not understand. Problem

By the way, judging by your nickname, you are a Petersburg resident. So - "Gazprom" is registered in St. Petersburg, and not in Moscow. And he pays taxes there. Start with yourself then.

[ilyaspb]

Namely, Gazprom, and therefore many oil refineries from all over the country, pay taxes to St. Petersburg. I gave an example above.
What to start with yourself? I pay taxes from my business at the place of production.

[ilyaspb]

Or if I am a Petersburger, then in your imagination I certainly welcome the re-registration at our enterprises of those enterprises that were part of the same Sibneft before its purchase?

[Tor hummer]

Quote: ilyaspb

Or if I am a Petersburger, then in your imagination I certainly welcome the re-registration at our enterprises of those enterprises that were part of the same Sibneft before its purchase?

No, according to your logic, it turns out like this. And logically, those who tell nonsense, about the fact that "Muscovites on Bentley rob them and rage with fat".

[ilyaspb]

Are you an adequate person? I have been proving for several hours that most of Gazprom’s subsidiaries should be registered in Siberia, and now, it turns out, I am for registering them in St. Petersburg.

No, according to your logic, it turns out like this. And logically, those who tell nonsense, about the fact that "Muscovites on Bentley rob them and rage with fat".

You simply are not able to understand what you are being told. Go do your homework. The conversation is over.

[Tor hummer]

Quote: ilyaspb

Are you an adequate person? I have been proving for several hours that most of Gazprom’s subsidiaries should be registered in Siberia, and now, it turns out, I am for registering them in St. Petersburg.

Your whole chatter is that bad Muscovites are eating around the whole country and were forced to pay taxes in Moscow.

[Petrix]

Quote: ilyaspb

You simply are not able to understand what you are being told. Go do your homework. The conversation is over.

That is the question that is capable of destabilizing the country. Stalemate situation. Or resent the government - Maidan, or endure - the continuation of parasitism on the people.
So, do we still need a war to rally the masses?

[ilyaspb]

IMHO, no war is needed. We need a public dialogue to reconcile reds and whites, believers and atheists. And hurray patriots just to the hospital.

[saag]

automation of manual labor is good, but I think the trend may be somewhat different - a person will begin to build additional modules that expand capabilities, such as memory

[SHILO]

Quote: saag

automation of manual labor is good, but I think the trend may be somewhat different - a person will begin to build additional modules that expand capabilities, such as memory

I agree about modules - they will (already exist!), And the memory already has very wide boundaries. The whole question of development and training, t.s. memory "operational".

[saag]

you can still come up with a neural network, although the question of its training arises, but in general, when a person gets in this way almost instant access to some databases and knowledge, what opportunities open up

[Basarev]

First of all, there will be opportunities to easily uncover secrets and call to account. Including to call for accountability of the highest-ranking corrupt officials, therefore, such a possibility will never be opened to the general public. Indeed, in the language of power there is no such word - responsibility.

[satris]

Bad retelling of a weak fantasy novel. Do you want to fight? Thirst for blood, of course - even in virtual. Well, nobody canceled "Var in craft" - indulge in it. Scary for 20 billion humanity? Or you want to stand in the middle of Australia (for example) and yell: This is my continent! My! Own! Yes, if you are immortal, invulnerable, etc. etc., it is possible. What if suddenly not? What then? Empty planet - in perspective? Do you want something different? There used to be good advice: read the works of the classics of Marxism-Leninism. And don't say it's outdated. Or go to church - there are also recipes from "world domination" there. What, did you create the Earth? Why would she suddenly become yours? Well, if suddenly such thoughts arose - "superfluous people, however, are everywhere" - that is, a good remedy - galaperidol.

[Viktor Kudinov]

Nothing will appear "by the pike's command". To be richer, you have to work harder. You don't have to work to live as you do now!

[Petrix]

Quote: Victor Kudinov

To be richer, you have to work harder.

Where is the light at the end of the tunnel? As we used to work for 8 hours, without computers, and now we work hard, but with all kinds of office equipment. If earlier a new model of a machine can be invented for years, now give a few models a month. You understand the competition. Bought - throw it away, it's already cooler.
It's foolish not to see this squirrel wheel. A hard worker, working in three jobs and a financier who exploits this hard worker. Which of them should work harder?

[Tatar 174]

It seems that the Greeks were not there, but the Eloi. The Hellenes are completely different. You are right in one thing, the author, it is necessary to start creating a future that will suit everyone, and for this first you need to solve a huge bunch of today's problems, I will not list them. You, it seems to me, have read a lot of dark apocalyptic fiction ...

[SHILO]

Quote: Tatar 174

You, it seems to me, have read a lot of gloomy apocalyptic fiction ...

And which of the "positive" fiction has come true? I'm not talking about technical innovations, but about the social sphere! "Great Ring" "Andromeda Nebula", Worlds of the early Strugatsky ...
So far, more like "361 degrees Fahrenheit"!

[larand]

Quote: SHILO

And which of the "positive" fiction has come true?

Perhaps the present civilization, based on wars and cruelty, has only one future - self-destruction in order to free the planet it polluted for the next civilization.

[SHILO]

Quote: larand

in order to free the planet polluted by it for the next civilization.

Just thinking about it ...

[Lyubteh]

I would like to add "Hour of the bull" by Efremov

[Svetovod]

I have a different opinion about the future.
1) The further a person moves away from direct work, the less he is a person - labor (not 8-hour slavery) is a condition of our existence. Our ancestors have always been busy with something, and all 10000000000 generations before Us, partially excluding the nearest "perestroika". It is incorporated and by itself (aside from money) provides the mood of the body.
2) Idleness like death - our bodies can withstand falls, burns, injuries, bumps and fractures with shell shocks. And they cannot survive inaction - they atrophy, disappear.
3)Dependence.If you replace something of your own with something alien, you will lose your own and you will depend on others. For example - Someone will offer us to "save" our precious hands from hard exhausting labor - and they will do everything FOR US. Everything will be tip-top, until the time when the hands dry up, and the good-natured darling, who "freed" our little hands from labor, will not introduce a monthly fee for the services provided. What does HOW mean? Or have you not read the contract? In the same place it is written in black and white in small print - the first year is free.

4) Cyberization is all the same - it is not an expansion of oneself, but a contraction. But for the weak-willed Artificial Intelligence - this is a big step - gaining a mind that can be controlled.
Who uses whom in cyberization? Are we a technique, or is it us? "You will know them by their fruits" - will people be healthier, more prolific, wiser and so on? And the technique?


Terminator / Ghost in the Shell / Animatrix / I-Robot / Wall-I / are visual aids about the struggle of technology with people for a place under the Sun.

[gjv]

Quote: Svetovod

Who uses whom in cyberization? Are we a technician, or is she us? "By their fruits you will recognize them" - will people be healthier, more fertile, wiser, and so on? And the technique? Terminator / Ghost in the Shell / Animatrix / I-Robot / Wall-I / are visual aids about the struggle of technology with people for a place under the Sun.

Letters from a dead man / Water world / The Book of Eli / Babylon AD / Postman / Kin-dza-dza / Vovka in the distant kingdom - about people with people.

[Petrix]

Quote: Svetovod

The further a person moves away from direct work, the less he is a person - labor (not 8-hour slavery) is a condition of our existence.

Robotization is inevitable, whether we like it or not. From the moment a person learned to use tools (stones, sticks), they are being improved. Now there are already no clerks, no cabmen, the blacksmiths remained as artists. And so on - all the monotonous labor will be taken over by the machines. The only thing left for man is that machines cannot do - work with brains, create new things, learn the unknown.
But there is always black and white. You can create a society of the golden age where there is no injustice. And you can get robotic fascism. Artificial intelligence may get out of control.

[valokordin]

The task that is now facing, and which the author compares with the task of creating an atomic bomb, is beyond our power. Our power is focused on maximizing profit. If not for Putin, the country was already a colony of the United States, or even a half-colony. Now there is an incentive to unite the people - This is the situation in Ukraine and the US aggression. What will happen if such a threat disappears, around whom and what the people will unite. Where is the task above or as the author thinks "he pressed the button and the drunk got drunk, pressed the button and found himself in Sochi ...". The working class will remain and, I hope, a person and a group of people will appear in its midst who can defend its rights, defend the interests of the class from the unreasonable greed and arrogance of the elite, even if the elite takes repressive measures, as in Ukraine.

[SHILO]

Quote: valokordin

Now there is an incentive for the unification of the people. This is the situation in Ukraine and US aggression. What will happen if such a threat disappears, around whom and what will the people unite.

Note that even last spring there was such an incentive - "Russian World"! But...

[Kalinov Bridge]

Quote: SHILO

Quote: valokordin

Now there is an incentive for the unification of the people. This is the situation in Ukraine and US aggression. What will happen if such a threat disappears, around whom and what will the people unite.

Note that even last spring there was such an incentive - "Russian World"! But ...

Quote: valokordin

If not for Putin ...

Not as a person and personality, but as a system of power.
The Russian world of power is not needed. "Putin" needs power, profit and loyalty from the population.

[one]

Quote: valokordin

The task that now stands, and which the author compares with the task of creating an atomic bomb, is beyond our power. Our power is focused on maximizing profit. If not for Putin ...

oh hoo ... furry!
do you think Putin is not power ?!
Well, yes, in your opinion it turns out that he is an opposition to the authorities !!!

[Vladimir73]

Quote: Someone

oh hoo ... furry!
do you think Putin is not power ?!

The retinue makes the king. (C) I don’t remember who said it, but do not forget.

[one]

Quote: Vladimir73

Quote: Someone

oh hoo ... furry!
do you think Putin is not power ?!

The retinue makes the king. (C) I don’t remember who said it, but do not forget.

in translation to the public - the king selects a retinue and now the king is judged by the affairs of the retinue.
I absolutely agree with you.

[Basarev]

And the retinue meanwhile commit atrocities and outrages worse than the German Nazis. The Nazis at least restored abandoned factories that could be restored. The retinue just how much in vain sells Russia and puts it under China.

[lehalk]

Would you go to ....! In short, you know!

[rotmistr60]

With the advent of a universal robot, a person will finally lose the function of a seller of his labor, remaining only a potential consumer.

There are still enough potential consumers in the world. Chief among them is the United States. When consumption exceeds production, the consumer first wants to consume more, then it becomes boring and requires a thrill. The beginning of a new war is already ripe.

[Viktor Kudinov]

it is obvious that in the coming decades a universal robot will be created, capable of a wide range of jobs - from a builder to a waiter and a cleaner. The appearance of such a robot is no less important than the creation of an atomic bomb.

This robot has already been created! He is called a guest worker or migrant!

[one]

Quote: Victor Kudinov

it is obvious that in the coming decades a universal robot will be created, capable of a wide range of jobs - from a builder to a waiter and a cleaner. The appearance of such a robot is no less important than the creation of an atomic bomb.

This robot has already been created! He is called a guest worker or migrant!

did not guess, it is rather bees collecting nectar pollen from our flowers, instead of our bees.
which means that honey will not be with us, and others will get the berries.

[Aleksey18]

Exactly! But this robot has drawbacks: it wants to drink and eat, reproduces more actively than "Eloy" and wants social equality - look what the children and grandchildren of migrants do in Europe.
And I no longer want to refuse their services, so such social robotics is developing by leaps and bounds. And still very necessary control over such a population: cameras, drones, wiretapping, denunciation

[Nina Czerny]

I agree with you. Probably not for nothing that only applied and game technologies are developing now. Because there are billions of people who are ready to work for a penny and food. And there is no need for any progressive ideas and changes in the structure of society, everything returned to the origins, patricians and plebs, gentlemen and slaves. And all this is covered by the "democratic" and "free" press serving the upper layer of the elite.

[Monster_Fat]

The problem of "overstocking" actually stems from the fact that the world does not find new "wants" for itself. It is "Wishlist" that drive the development of civilization, and if it does not arise in time, the world economy falls into "overproduction". What are "Wishlist"? Wishlist are "super tasks" that a nation or state sets for itself and on which it "throws" all its resources. The solution of one "supertask" pulls after itself or gives rise to the emergence of other "supertask" and thus generates the development of the economy and productive forces. The creation of nuclear weapons, and rockets and the lunar race, etc., were such "wishlist" - "supertask" "flights to Mars" look unconvincing, before and are not "super tasks" so all resources are not directed to them. "Super tasks" can be such plans as the construction of floating and underwater cities, flying cities, the settlement of the moon, etc. If such "tasks" are not set, then everything will be as the author of the article said.

[SHILO]

Quote: Monster_Fat

"Super tasks" can be such plans as the construction of floating and underwater cities, flying cities, the settlement of the moon ...

And everything moves to connecting the computer directly to the brain ... :)

[saag]

Quote: SHILO

And everything moves to connecting the computer directly to the brain ... :)

and there will be computers no longer computers but an "extension" like Alexander Tyurin in "Astronaut's Sword" or like Andrei Livadny :-)

[one]

Quote: SHILO

Quote: Monster_Fat

"Super tasks" can be such plans as the construction of floating and underwater cities, flying cities, the settlement of the moon ...

And everything moves to connecting the computer directly to the brain ... :)

and control of this brain through the same computer.
I'm against!

[rotor]

The author correctly pointed out the problem, for the further development of the country and the transition to a new level of economic development, intensification of production is necessary. A significant increase in labor productivity is impossible without automation. The resulting problem of unemployment should be addressed in a comprehensive manner, without prejudice to automation and, accordingly, to economic development.

[one]

Quote: rotor

The author correctly pointed out the problem, for the further development of the country and the transition to a new level of economic development, intensification of production is necessary.

what are you talking about?
to intensify production, you must first have this same-production!
but, sorry, even kettles, pots, toilets, etc., are made for us by the Chinese and everyone else.
carrots for us are grown israel-egypt-china ...
to list further?

[rotor]

I'm talking about intensification of production, and what are you talking about?

So Israel, due to the intensification of agriculture, has increased the volume of agricultural production tenfold.

[one]

Quote: rotor

I'm talking about intensification of production, and what are you talking about?

and I mean that I would like to have this "production" for a start!

[Nina Czerny]

Why do our monopolies need it? They already live well. The author writes about what was written about in the USSR in the 1960s-70s. But then the USSR was already solving these problems. But in the current feudal state, which has neither goals nor ideology, the higher ranks of which declare that we have "only pragmatism," when Peskov says that it is funny that "the European Union is hurting itself because of some invented PRINCIPLES "when the average salary in the country is 35 thousand rubles (and somewhere around 10 thousand), and the Sechins, Chubais and others receive from several million a month to the same million a day (!), who will increase labor productivity by automation? The main thing is profit! And it is obtained due to low wages and minimal costs of maintaining an employee. And we go this way!

[rotor]

and sechin, chubais and others receive from several million a month to the same millions a day (!), Who will increase productivity through automation?

Sechins and Chubais do what they are told from above. They say that Rothenberg would build pipelines at exorbitant prices, they would say they would buy the company at exorbitant prices, they would do it. A private trader would never allow this.

[Petrix]

Quote: Nina Cerny

who will increase productivity through automation? The main thing is profit! And it comes at the expense of low wages and minimal maintenance costs. This way and go!

Profit increases during automation due to the lack of remuneration for robots. Therefore, all manufacturers will switch to automation.

[Aleksey18]

We need new meanings for the existence of the country. Intensification, automation and other things will be useful if we go in the right direction, otherwise it is the release of a 100500 iPhone which is even thinner and lighter.
And all this was in the Soviet Union, albeit with distortions. We developed a different idea from the capitalist world, we had many allies
Step number 1 - the search and understanding of the meanings of the existence of the Russian world, their popularization
Step number 1 - the construction of a multipolar world and the emergence of competition as a driving force for the development of civilizations.
Step number 2 - you need a new living space - not on Earth, but in space. Only the USSR, and then Russia, has space stations in orbit (the ISS - the USA does not have experience in both construction and cannot supply the station due to the lack of delivery vehicles). This automatically leads the formulation of the supertask and subsequent cooperation within the framework of its civilization or the entire planet.

[saag]

Quote: Aleksey18

Step number 1 - the search and understanding of the meanings of the existence of the Russian world, their popularization

Bang, the first mistake - a bias in the national plane

Quote: Aleksey18

Step number 1 - the construction of a multipolar world and the emergence of competition as a driving force for the development of civilizations.

Competition as such exists

Quote: Aleksey18

Step number 2 - you need a new living space - not on Earth, but in space. Only the USSR, and then Russia, has space stations in orbit (the ISS - the USA does not have experience in both construction and cannot supply the station due to the lack of delivery vehicles). This automatically leads the formulation of the supertask and subsequent cooperation within the framework of its civilization or the entire planet.

So I did not wait for a certain idea to build a moral society that would set itself the task of improving the environment, eliminating the causes of wars and troubles, developing scientific and technological progress with going beyond the Earth to other bodies of the Solar System with the aim of study and application for their needs

[Petrix]

Quote: Aleksey18

Intensification, automation and other things will be useful if we go in the right direction,

Humanly, this is true. But if Russia does not introduce automation of even unnecessary things, it will lose technologically. This draws a loss on other plans.
The Indians lost to the whites not because they were less moral. The technical progress of European immigrants is one of the conditions for their victory.

[Petrix]

Quote: rotor

The unemployment problem that arises in this case must be addressed in a comprehensive manner, without prejudice to automation and, accordingly, to economic development.

This is the catch. Ideally, everyone is busy or not busy. But what to do in transition? Suppose that 100 people are working enough 10 people.
Capitalistically, these 10 receive good wages, the remaining 90 live on benefits or receive benefits in the form of beggarly wages in artificially created (unnecessary) workplaces. But these 90 are also smart and educated like those 10. We get social tension.
In a socialist way, everyone needs to be level. Those. technical progress has to be slowed down so that everyone is equally employed. In general we get friendship-equality, but we lose to capitalism in terms of the speed of development of technology.
Two ways to solve this come up:
1. Rotate all 100 people replacing each other at these 10 jobs. Those. I worked 1 day - 99 you have a rest. Z.p. everyone is the same.
2. Volunteer altruists work until the golden age is reached (when the need to earn money disappears).
The next plan problem is what will the liberated people do? This is where the struggle against inequality begins. After all, all z.p. the same, there is plenty of time for justice (reflection, not survival). This is what the moneybags are afraid of.
Well, then, I believe that the consumerist lifestyle is supported artificially. It will not be necessary to fight with bad directions, they themselves will die if they are not planted. Then a lot of time for creativity.

[oracul]

Sometimes it happens when a person opens something that has long been discovered. We take the "Manifesto of the Communist Party" and read: "In the place of the old bourgeois society with its classes and class opposites comes an association in which the free development of each is a condition for the free development of all." (p. 47) In my opinion, this motto is the cornerstone for the future communist society. However, in practice, the broad masses were closer to the slogan: "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." The reason is banal - the criterion of truth is practice, human life is short, but there are needs, you need to dress, raise your children now, without putting it off. What is the manifestation of the idealism of the Marxists? In the excessive belief that it is worth giving education, providing jobs, explaining to people the goals of a bright future, and everything will go by itself. Alas, the knowledge of the spiritual world of man in the 1st century, and even until the middle of the XNUMXth century, was in its infancy. Of course, today you can be smart about the pioneers, but it is better not to do this, since it was their asceticism that led to many changes in the life of mankind. And all the dirt and innuendo that is poured into the address of the Marxists is nothing but the craftiness of the rich in order to preserve a privileged position for themselves and their descendants. This suits most of those closest to them who serve them and feed from their hands. But at the same time, they all live at the expense of the surplus product created by the hands of workers, and not analysts, experts, political scientists, sociologists, security guards and others. Yes, the proletariat is changing its structure, it is becoming different in composition and encompasses an ever wider range of specialties, where a high level of education and professionalism is already required. It is a pity that not everyone understands this.

[Viktor Kudinov]

Certainly. The main contradiction remains the same: a lot of people work, and all the tidbits go to the parasites, who pull everything over themselves, and even provoke the "slaves" to destroy each other.

[dmit-xnumx]

I liked the article - thanks to the author! The idea of ​​a complete unification of the minds of all people into a single whole (a kind of "Solaris" on other carriers) flashed back in the times of these.

[rotor]

in the coming decades, a universal robot will be created, capable of a wide range of work - from the builder to the waiter and cleaner. The appearance of such a robot is no less important than the creation of an atomic bomb.

The author voiced the correct idea, we need a project similar to the atomic one, which will make a breakthrough. And this project is robotics, which assumes that we will create perfect robots ourselves, on our element base.

Anyone who does not have time to reach a new level of development will be doomed to an ever-growing and irreversible lag behind the leaders of the world economy and degradation.

[nagel_Oz]

Well, the author is somehow very gloomy ...
Reality gives rise to ideology, and not vice versa. The emergence of a high-tech robot, so even if they are not in such a sophisticated form, but already there are: machine-tool building, electronics, automotive. So what?
Does Tolyatti rebel about CNC machines ?!
The technological breakthrough that is coming in the near future will primarily improve the quality of life, and will naturally change the concept of human coexistence.
Even completely gloomy forecasts about the post-apocalyptic world populated by military robots are killers of the world cyber war, by and large will reduce the loss of manpower.

[one]

Quote: nagel_Oz

The technological breakthrough that is coming in the near future will primarily improve the quality of life

only those who can pay for it.

Quote: nagel_Oz

Even completely gloomy forecasts about the post-apocalyptic world populated by military robots are killers of the world cyber war, by and large will reduce the loss of manpower.

aha, since there will be no "manpower" by that time.

[NordUral]

All these films are not just fantasies, but quite realistic sketches on the theme of the world of the future, which prepare and train us for this future. Their realism is not in detail, but in principle - billions live in chaos, units enjoy life.

Not quite so - nobody will just need billions of us. Then the world launched the process of self-destruction of these billions.

[bannik]

I started reading, and immediately a familiar smell from the article. I read on, and here:
"The only defense mechanism - the system of democratic elections, which creates value for the owner of the" vote "- has practically lost its significance due to the development of manipulation technologies and the boundary conditions of" elections. "
Does it remind you of anything and nobody, just recently, though in a more direct and frank form? Appeals: "ignore", "spoil", "take with you"? A very "insinuating" article. True, there is still more than a year before the elections. But the "work" seems to have already begun.

[Tor hummer]

What is described in the article is essentially true, but only up to the middle, because where the author began to talk about the "alternative" - ​​he suffered. There is no alternative and it is not needed.
It is now obvious that the land is overpopulated, and most of the population is useless. A sharp increase in the population of the Earth began in the 20 century, it was due to the industrial and energy revolutions. But this century is coming to an end, in view of the exhaustion of resources. There will be no oil and gas, there will be no super-harvests, and without them mass starvation will begin, on a planetary scale (despite the fact that even now half of humanity is starving).
Therefore, the population will not be disposed of through wars, it will be reduced primarily through hunger and thirst. Of course, there will be wars, primarily on the basis of hunger.

[one]

Quote: Tor Hummer

It is now obvious that the land is overpopulated, and most of the population is useless. A sharp increase in the world's population began in the 20th century, it was due to the industrial and energy revolutions. But this century is coming to an end, in view of exhaustion of resources

let me disagree with you.
you did not take into account the pattern
population growth - the growth of technological progress!
and civilization is directly dependent on progress.
there is no progress, there is stagnation and regression.
one of the reasons that Western countries let emigrants to them is to bring their population out of the state of "a cat sleeping in the sun, well fed, content with everything."
and resources, well, they will never run out when the sun is shining.
hunger, so it is artificially created.
the enemy of civilization is not the overpopulation of the planet and lack of resources, but the decline of enlightenment, culture, and self-awareness.
religion used to keep from degradation, for a long time educating and pointing to humanity the right direction
now religion is degrading and gradually ceasing to enlightenment, but enlightenment does not have time to occupy the vacant niche and, as a result, the decline of culture and self-awareness.
(I will make a reservation right away - religion is also enlightenment, only at a level understandable for its time and adapted to it and the area of ​​residence).
our society has been thrown back, the institutions of education and culture have been destroyed, and therefore attempts are made to revive religion, often these attempts take on a grotesque state. religion is perverted to please those interested in it.
all the same, whatever one may say, but from the laws of the development of society there is nowhere to escape. laws - they are also in Africa - laws.
and all this muddied mentally unhealthy individuals with a manic desire to decide everything for everyone and have everything!
they impose on us the cult of consumption and egoism.
this is the road to a standstill.

[Petrix]

Quote: Tor Hummer

It is now obvious that the land is overpopulated, and most of the population is useless.

For whom is it obvious? If this is obvious to someone, then let the first sterilize or ephthanize itself. For some reason, ardent wrestlers want to reduce the population at the expense of others.

Quote: Tor Hummer

There will be no oil and gas, there will be no super harvests, and without them mass starvation will begin

Under human governance, the Earth can feed much more than it does now. But consumerism and humanity are opposite things.

[Tribuns]

If there are no human consumers on Earth, except for a handful of clever creators of robotic systems, then goods and a "machine age with negative labor costs" will not be needed either ... Until now, no one has canceled the classical formula of capitalist production "commodity - money - commodity", and if the capitalist feels the threat of making a profit, he will "slow down or close this machine age" ...
Of course, robotics should and will develop, but not in opposition to the need to destroy the "negative labor force" ... There are, besides war, other, civilian ways to prevent a demographic crisis in our land ...
The author's message takes people's minds away from reasoning about the pressing problems of our time and, in fact, is "an unnecessary collection pit of fantastic bestsellers ..."

[Petrix]

Quote: TribunS

if the capitalist feels the threat of profit, he will "slow down or close this machine age" ...

The capitalist (and not only) does not need profit as such, it needs power. And what it is due to (economically, politically, technologically) does not matter.

[ingenera]

The creation of our own IT base and a universal robot should be a modern “nuclear project”. Processor plus program plus energy is a versatile robot. A project of this kind is a matter of survival. (quote)

Those. It is proposed to actively engage in the process and thereby bring the alleged apocalypse closer.

[ingenera]

And yet, in defense of Muscovites. One city, even such a metropolis, cannot "eat" such a mighty country. Ordinary people live in Moscow. There are workers, there are engineers, doctors, teachers, homeless people, guest workers, pensioners, finally. And that's why they are fattening, buying apartments, etc. all kinds of businessmen and deputies from the provinces - this is the question. You chose them there, for some reason they did not want to establish life in their homeland and rushed to the capital. Moscow is not to blame for this. Ordinary Muscovites, and they are the majority, do not like all this either.

[Dragon-y]

"Yesterday I caught my robot vacuum cleaner sweeping trash under the carpet."
Plumbing robot will not replace, in any case, not yet soon. :)

[SveTok]

This is not the last and not the best development scenario.

[Prager]

On this I completely agree with you.

[Razvedchik]

Short. ".... and machines rose from the ashes of nuclear fire and started a war against people!"
Even shorter.
"Cyborgs are coming!"

[CB activist]

Great stuff!

The problem is formulated very precisely. The main characteristic of a society capable of solving the problem formulated above is given very accurately, this is society, attention:

"should represent the direct opposite of social Darwinism. Should assume the value of human life not in the criteria of" success "and conditional utility for others, expressed in the amount of money received, but the value of life as a" thing in itself. "A socially recognized value can be the development of each individual and the training system is lifelong. "

This social system is COMMUNISM. After all, communism is:

1. Abolition of the principle of mutual devouring (social Darwinism) and the establishment of the principle of universal brotherhood.
2. Awakening and development of higher creative abilities in every person (for in every person capitalism kills the failed Mozart)
3. Achievement of peace between historical religious systems WITHOUT syncretic fusion of these systems (for each religious system is self-sufficient, and this self-sufficiency must be respected)
4. Respect for the national identity of each people (because historical reality has shown that peoples do not want to give up their identity, they want to build their future precisely as peoples, which means that it is necessary to reckon with reality, you will have to make adjustments to the theoretical apparatus of communism).
5. Communism is not a dead dogma, but an evolving intellectual system based on the salvation of the human in every person. A system that counteracts a utilitarian, dehumanistic and, ultimately, fascist approach to the problem of man.

[elenagromova]

In fact, machines that save human labor costs are a blessing in themselves. The problem is in social relationships that are outdated. This is where progress is needed.
Luddites broke cars, and the cause of the disaster was not at all in them.
In itself, the release of people's time is great. If a person can read more, learn more, relax more, communicate more with friends and relatives.
But how to make it so that he does not remain a beggar unemployed? It’s absurd to beg or even need a high-productivity society that smart machines can provide ...
It's all about the redistribution of resources ...
And, if the cost of various goods is artificially inflated, then why not think about the need to artificially increase the cost of labor while reducing working time?
This is where the exit is ...

[Mentat]

Artificial intelligence does not shine for Humanity in the near foreseeable future. There are not even prerequisites for its creation: there is neither a theoretical basis, nor a gram of achievements. Modern science has not yet even come to understand the meaning of "intelligence".

The maximum is expert systems that work out limited behavioral models when a quantum computer is finally created. That, in itself, is a breakthrough technology, and it is not a fact that it is not slowed down, just to avoid cataclysms.

So it's good to suck out cyberpunk fantasies from your finger :)

[Petrix]

Quote: Mentat

Artificial intelligence does not shine for Humanity in the near foreseeable future.

Human intelligence is not needed to perform monotonous actions. For destruction too. Therefore, for the scheme "robots produce robots" is quite enough and modern underdeveloped AI.

[Mentat]

Quote: Petrix

Quote: Mentat

Artificial intelligence does not shine for Humanity in the near foreseeable future.

To perform monotonous actions, human intelligence is not needed. For destruction too.

To destroy what? If old cars are not needed, but necessary for warfare. You cannot imagine the list of tasks that need to be solved on the battlefield.

Therefore, for the scheme "robots produce robots" it is quite enough and modern underdeveloped AI.

No "modern AI" exists as a class. What today is called artificial intelligence does not even have its microscopic glimpses, it is just a collection of hard-coded algorithms.