New details of the assault by an Australian special forces Sydney cafe, captured in December 2014

New details of the operation to free the hostages taken in Sydney cafe Lindt 15 in December last year come up. Recall that the armed Iranian-born Charon Moniz took hostage several visitors to the cafe and his staff. After the capture, Moniz made several demands: to bring him the flag of the Islamic State directly to the cafe and to organize negotiations with Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

On the following day, the Australian security forces began to storm the building. As a result of the assault, two hostages died, five more were injured. The terrorist was killed.

At the disposal of the British edition The Guardian It turned out the results of the examination of the bodies of the dead hostages and a terrorist. It turned out that in the body of the murdered hostage Katrina Dawson, experts found the exact same bullet as in the body of terrorist Moniz. This suggests that of the two hostages, one was killed by Australian police during the assault.

Originally reported that two hostages killed Moniz.

Representatives of the Australian authorities say that there may have been a ricochet, and it was he who led the bullet fired from the policeman’s head to the hostage of Dawson.

Relatives of the deceased insist on conducting a thorough investigation of the very course of the assault on the cafe Lindt by Australian security forces.

Comments

[Chronywyvert]

lazy, that’s lost skills

[ICT]

Quote: Chronovert

lazy, that’s lost skills

I repeat, everything was decorously noble, unlike France,
and you can’t do without randomness in such operations

[Gronsky]

Quote: TIT

there everything was decorously noble, unlike France

Even visually, the actions of the French were more like panic and Brownian movement. Someone is running somewhere, bumping into each other, jerky movements, frequently changing postures, confused faces. The general impression is confusion and lack of preparation. if you watch videos from operations by FSB special operations in the Caucasus, the difference in preparation becomes obvious and striking.

[Rocketeer_M]

Quote: Gronsky

French actions were more like panic and Brownian movement

One school ...

[Gronsky]

Quote: Rockete_M

One school ...

Well, it’s some kind of Cygany Olympiad. There is nothing worse than the descendants of Dracula.

[Shiva83483]

It is valid .... it is necessary to remember.

[crazyrom]

Even a rebound does not justify, there are ricochetless bullets (pure lead without a shell, for example). And most likely she was just shot. This is the lack of professionalism, and that’s it.

[SCHNIFER]

A rifle-free bullet? What is the innovation? This is possible only if the bullet immediately collapses upon contact with an obstacle, or has such strength characteristics and energy transmitted by a shot that pierces any obstacle. I never heard of such shells

[Altona]

Quote: crazyrom

Even a rebound does not justify, there are ricochetless bullets (pure lead without a shell, for example). And most likely she was just shot. This is the lack of professionalism, and that’s it.

---------------------
But what about the vaunted Western and Israeli submachine guns and submachine guns? Bullshit mean?

[gunya]

A weapon is one thing, and whoever holds it in his hands is sa-a-apsem different!

[dohtor]

not only they woke up, but about the fact that the pestle has lost, so it’s not his fault - the fool’s dog - somewhere suffered, and even some boards

[matross]

Quote: Gronsky

Even visually, the actions of the French were more like panic and Brownian movement. Someone is running somewhere, bumping into each other, jerky movements, often changing postures, confused faces. General impression - confusion and lack of preparation

Exactly. The movie "Taxi" reminded me of this show too ... only in a sad translation. Especially the chase of the police column for the terrorist - generally one to one!

[Gronsky]

Quote: matRoss

This show, the film "Taxi", reminded me too

Nothing will soon come to the brutal Europe from its well-being, that which has long reached the Russians.
Life is much more "interesting" than kinA.
P.S. And we will hear weeping and moaning. The Arabian cavalry will approach and we will see more than one cohort in Yershalaim.
But there is no need to rush to help, you need to let them feel their wrongness and rudeness.

[hula11]

In 1995 there were international competitions of special forces, not a policeman, among others there were Frenchmen. VERY surprised these guys. They are certainly not equal to our fighters, although on our side there were only conscripts

[flSergius]

That's just the point - they have brand new plastic and ONV, making them look like cyborgs, and they are fighting with plywood growth figures, and our cotton jacket and pants of different colors, but real experience with dangerous opponents.

[Bersaglieri]

The one on the right also needs to be fed, clothed, armed, and issued a monetary allowance.
No other way.

[Professor]

Quote: Bersaglieri

The one on the right also needs to be fed, clothed, armed, and issued a monetary allowance.
No other way.

Or use as a consumable and be proud of it, and there women still give birth.

[Hleb]

consumable

for example? and what is the alternative?

[Max_Bauder]

Quote: professor

Or use as a consumable and be proud of it, and there women still give birth.

Duc, the soldiers of the armies of other countries, it seems, also do not hatch from an egg, and the US has the largest consumption in recent times.

[Professor]

Quote: Max_Bauder

Duc, the soldiers of the armies of other countries, it seems, also do not hatch from an egg, and the US has the largest consumption in recent times.

The fate of a soldier in battle is either to win or die, but now the bourgeoisie has not accepted the burial of the enemy with corpses, and this demotivator is proof of this.

[Max_Bauder]

Quote: professor

but now it’s not customary for the bourgeois to fill up the corpses of the enemy

I don’t agree completely, yes, it’s not accepted to fill up with corpses, partly from the cowardice inherent in Europeans, who will give up more easily than die for their homeland, but also for a number of other reasons.

Firstly, it is now customary for them, the bourgeoisie, to agree with the enemy, ISIS and the Taliban, also militants who are now in Libya to prove this, and secondly, killed and wounded American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past 10-15 years are real no one counted. I think 13000 is exactly typed, like the advice in the Afghan.

And finally, about the demotivator, an inappropriate comparison of the author, in the photo on the right it looks like a fighter of the Russian army in Chechnya, when the country was falling apart and there was no money in the Army, besides, the opponents, the bandits (and they are) were fed as "their own", so are the Americans with the Saudis, weapons and advisers, and fighters.

In the photo to the left, a well-fed and manned American from the Iraq war is a desert storm or closer. As we all remember the past 50 years, the Americans certainly did not experience the collapse of the country and the collapse of the economy in order to be deprived of finances for the army, which means the army was able to wage any kind of war. But, it is also worth considering that, unlike the Chechen war, the Americans did not meet in Iraq with mercenaries from other countries trained by, say, military advisers as professionals.

I’m afraid to imagine what would happen to poor Americans if Russia supplied Saddam with modern weapons, from armored vehicles and air defense systems, to military specialists training and serving drugs and equipment. Second Vietnam seem. Isn't it because of this, for example, in recent history, that the US State Department screamed and was nervous and the Pentagon did not dare to war and the Israeli Neytianahu (almost swearing, apologizing) flew to Moscow so that the Assad would not be delivered the S-300, and God forbid, other military miracles thoughts of Russia?

PySy. During the Great Patriotic War, in the second phase, Soviet soldiers were dressed, shod, fed and armed no worse than, and even better than other modern armies of the World.

[Sergei1982]

During the Great Patriotic War, in the second phase, Soviet soldiers were dressed, shod, fed and armed no worse than, and even better than other modern armies of the World.

And the experience of an ordinary soldier of that period was no less than that for elite special forces.

[flSergius]

The one on the right also needs to be fed, clothed, armed, and issued a monetary allowance.

No need to take dem so straightforward, think with your own head. Our soldiers in the notorious quilted jackets are capable of much, and in modern equipment even more. Americans without artillery preparation and reconnaissance from drones will not enter the settlement and still suffer losses, fighting off together with 15 rounds for each of 100 Wahhabis - just as a script for the film, turn off the supplies of toilet paper and pads for the coffee maker, and after a week they can cut with penknives.

[Hleb]

I read the comments on this demo on the American or English forum (there are plenty of Russians) the approximate meaning:
the guy writes:
I am disgusted with Russians who speak poorly about the Russian military. I know that Russian soldiers are some of the best in the world, and I will always support my homeland until I die.

Well, the answers of critics like a professor) as arguments that demo that is higher and similar kamenty: I do not want to be a pessimist, but this is the reality of the Russian army, but you don’t really worry, remember that Putin is a Zionist puppet, which means that there will be no war between NATO and Russia.

- Maybe your comments are justified, I hope that your blood pressure will not kill you. Perhaps this is a false image of the Russian army (that the Russian army is one of the strongest), but let me tell you, I know a lot of Russians, who despite that the Russian army and the military themselves are not as well-off as their Western counterparts are still holding the level. perhaps it is based on the ideals and spirit of that Soviet army, but it is.

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t994291-5/

[Bersaglieri]

Have you encountered Americans in real life, or just "on TV"? Ordinary people are just like everyone else.

".. American without artillery preparation and reconnaissance from drones will not enter the settlement ..." - in Afghanistan, the Soviet Army acted the same way (well, perhaps, adjusted for technical equipment 30 years ago) - work from attack aircraft, helicopters , and only afterwards - ground clearing. And it is right.

So do not write pathetic nonsense on toilet paper and capsules for a coffee maker (note: in all rations of field drinks are instant drinks. What kind of coffee maker? :))

[lukke]

Well, about the actions of the Australian special forces from the video, it’s impossible to judge anything at all, because I can not see anything. As for the paddling, I generally wonder how these people still call themselves elite units. In the shots, when they hit a terrorist escaping with the hostages, the so-called specialists shoot at him so that it seems that they want to pierce him with a gun barrel like a sword - some unbalanced gangsters from the 90s fighters about the Chicago mafia)))

[Sergei1982]

As for the paddling, I generally wonder how these people still call themselves elite units. In the shots, when they hit a terrorist escaping with the hostages, the so-called specialists shoot at him so that it seems that they want to pierce him with a gun barrel like a sword - some unbalanced gangsters from the 90s fighters about the Chicago mafia)))

You look at them and the army is not better in 1914 if the Germans hadn’t taken the actions of Russia, Berlin would have been defeated in 1940 in 42 days, in the post-war period only the foreign legion fought from the French everywhere, there is no doubt about those professionals.

[lukke]

Yes, I don’t consider the frogmen to be great warriors (maybe of course they were once them), but as recent history shows .... now, over the past century, everything is sad for them. History of the First World Times. The meeting of the Germans in World War II is no better either. Then how after the war they mocked their women, whom they themselves abandoned and did not defend ... From the recollections of scouts who worked in post-war Germany divided into sectors, incl. French - if anyone fell into the paddling pool, they would come off like a stupid bone-breaker, although in the world of special services such behavior was considered unacceptable. In general, you can continue for a long time. I am afraid of another, that sooner or later France will have a repetition of the stage of history, when it will need help and no matter how generous Russia would pay the lives of its soldiers on the accounts of degenerate politicians on both sides.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: lukke

History of the First World Times.

Just the same in the WWI, the French proved to be the best. The first and last time in the entire 20 century

[Sergei1982]

Just the same in the WWI, the French proved to be the best.

On August 7, the French launched an offensive in Alsace using the forces of the 1st and 2nd armies, and on August 14 in Lorraine. The offensive was symbolic for the French - the territory of Alsace-Lorraine was torn away from France in 1871, after a defeat in the Franco-Prussian war. Although they initially managed to delve into German territory, capturing Saarbrücken (see: Lorraine operation) and Mühlhausen (see: Battle of Mühlhausen), the simultaneously unfolding German offensive in Belgium forced them to throw part of their troops there. The subsequent counterattacks did not meet the French with sufficient resistance, and by the end of August the French army retreated to its former positions, leaving Germany a small part of French territory.
On August 7, the Anglo-French and German troops came into contact - the border battle began. By the time the war began, the French command did not expect that the main offensive of the German troops would occur through Belgium, the main forces of the French troops were concentrated against Alsace. From the beginning of the invasion of Belgium, the French began an active movement of units in the direction of the breakthrough, by the time they came in contact with the Germans, the front was in quite a mess, and the French and the British were forced to accept the battle by three disengaged groups of troops. On the territory of Belgium, at Mons, the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) was located, southeast of Charleroi, was the 5th French army. In the Ardennes, approximately on the border of France with Belgium and Luxembourg, the 3rd and 4th French armies were stationed. In all three areas, the Anglo-French troops suffered a heavy defeat (see: Battle of Mons, Battle of Charleroi, Ardennes operation (1914)), losing about 250 thousand people, and the Germans from the north with a wide front invaded France, delivering the main blow to the west , bypassing Paris, thus taking the French army into giant ticks.

The German armies swiftly advanced. The British units retreated to the coast, the French command was not sure of the possibility of holding Paris, on September 2, the French government moved to Bordeaux. The defense of the city was led by the energetic General Gallieni. The French forces regrouped to a new line of defense along the Marne River.

Continue on about the good recommendation of the French Armed Forces in WWI.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Sergei1982

Continue on about the good recommendation of the French Armed Forces in WWI.

Continue of course. Only, preferably not copy-paste from Wikipedia
But if you like kokpipasta - continue :)))

The unsuccessful August actions of the French army forced its commander, General Joffre immediately replace a large number (up to 30% of the total) of poorly performing generals; the renewal and rejuvenation of the French generals was subsequently evaluated extremely positively.

And then tell us about the first battle on the Marne, about how the French commander, in order to catch time, transferred the division to the battlefield in Parisian taxis, about running to the sea, about the fierce battles of the 1915 of the year, about the Verdun meat grinder ...
Yes, in these battles, as a rule, the French suffered greater losses than the Germans, but the stamina of the French soldier was unprecedented. The Red Army also suffered heavy losses in the 1941-1942 years, and that, on this basis, you dare to claim that our army did not gain fame in the Second World War?

[Vladimir 23rus]

but the stamina of the French soldier was unparalleled. The Red Army also suffered heavy losses in 1941-1942, and that, on this basis, you dare to claim that our army did not earn fame in the Second World War?

WE, unlike them, won. And they didn’t surrender Moscow !!!

[Bersaglieri]

Did France lose in WWI?

[lukke]

Yes, in these battles, as a rule, the French suffered greater losses than the Germans, but the stamina of the French soldier was unprecedented. The Red Army also suffered heavy losses in the 1941-1942 years, and that, on this basis, you dare to claim that our army did not gain fame in the Second World War?

In fact, when the Germans broke through the "Stalin line", took Minsk, Kiev, Smolensk, came close to St. Petersburg and Moscow, the Russian Vanya did not lose his spirit, and the French brave soldiers, after the Germans went around the "Maginot Line" With purely European pragmatism, they considered further resistance suicidal (they are smart, unlike Ivanov-fools, they want to live well). I'm not even talking about Napoleon and Moscow. So continue to admire and further, but I did not understand and do not understand the French - remember Dumas and the 2Three Musketeers "- just think! They admire the hero-musketeers, who in spite of state France’s interests are assisted by the harlot, the queen, her English hahal (the enemy and rival of France), and at the same time they are ruining their compatriots from the Cardinal’s guard for some jewelry.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: lukke

In fact, when the Germans broke through the "Stalin line", took Minsk, Kiev, Smolensk, came close to Peter and Moscow, the Russian Vanya did not lose his spirit, and the French brave soldiers, after the Germans went around the "Maginot Line"

And what does this tirade have to do with the behavior of the French during the FIRST World War? Do you know how to distinguish the first world from the second, or do I need to give detailed explanations?

Quote: lukke

I’m even silent about Napoleon and Moscow.

And rightly so. For during the invasion of Napoleon, the French army, of course, showed very high moral and combat qualities. Which, however, did not save her from destruction

Quote: lukke

So continue to admire further

I do not admire the French, but give them their due - in response to the remark that the French did not prove themselves to be warriors in any conflict of the 20 century, I recalled that they still fought worthyly in World War I.

Quote: lukke

but I didn’t understand the French and don’t understand - remember Dumas and 2Three Musketeers "- think about it! They admire the hero-musketeers who, contrary to the state interests of France, help the harlot Queen, her English chakhal (enemy and rival of France) and at the same time for some jewelry is being crushed by their compatriot soldiers from the Cardinal's Guard

To be honest, I don’t fully understand how the denunciation of the "harlot queen" serves the interests of France

[Bersaglieri]

Warriors in the French army remained, perhaps, the Foreign Legion, because it constantly "pacifies the nouser."

Well, those. troops: aviation, navy.

[Altona]

Quote: Sergei1982

only the foreign legion fought the French everywhere; there is no doubt that those professionals.

---------------------------
Because these people without French passports, unlike the sheep farms from Algeria ...

[gunya]

Why should the Germans take Berlin? Apparently they mixed up with Paris rashly.

[Revolver]

Quote: Sergei1982

the Germans would take Berlin

If I remember correctly, Berlin was taken not by the Germans, but by the Red Army. And not in 1914, but in 1945.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Chronovert

lazy, that’s lost skills

You are not right.
To quote Hardingush, his words about the storming of a store in Paris -

... I suppose that now there will be massive accusations of French special forces of unprofessionalism. However, it is worth considering a number of points. The main one - the release of the hostages is the most difficult operation. And the survival of people depends not only on the actions of special forces, but also on many people, including those included in the headquarters. Especially important is how the hostages will behave (the best option is as passively as possible, actively reacting only to the teams of fighters, without showing initiative). Of course, this assault cannot be called successful. Of the two tasks - the neutralization of terrorists and the release of the maximum number of hostages, only one has been implemented.

We do not know the conditions of the operation, the current situation and the factors that influenced decision-making. Could you pull the situation? It is also not known. Perhaps the criminals began to kill the hostages and there was no longer any opportunity to postpone the assault. Yes, probably the experience of the fighters was not very much. But one thing is certain for sure - they were faced with the task of saving people. They tried to fulfill it, but not always everything goes according to plan. This is a difficult job in which even error-free actions do not always lead to a positive result. It is always easy to judge from the side. I think it’s morally difficult for the guys themselves from such an outcome of the assault ...

[TSOOBER]

Here recently a hard article came out about the mistakes of the French special forces:
Firstly, there are too many personnel - they interfere with each other, creating an essentially armed crowd. It would be advisable to delay everyone, leaving two triples on each side, which would make the call. The car in front of the entrance allows two more fighters to be placed directly opposite. What was the plan of the assault is difficult to say - in this crowd it is simply impossible to determine the role and task of specific fighters. We see that the doors open very slowly, which means that there can be no talk of a lightning storm. As soon as the doors opened, the assault group sets in and here we observe a strangeness, which I can only explain by the lack of military coordination. Shchitova goes forward, and his group suddenly steps back. For some reason, Shchitova does not notice this and continues to run forward, finding herself divorced from the main group. PPC ...

I don’t see the target in the video, so it’s hard to say who the fighters are shooting at. From 27 to 30 seconds, there is some movement, but it can be either a person or an inanimate object falling from shots. From 30 seconds we see some other movement resembling a shield or two people following each other to the left. Then there is an explosion of a stun grenade and suddenly the terrorist runs out to the right, which is strange, since the shooting was obviously conducted in the wrong direction. Why is he running into a frontal attack? This happens after the explosion of a stun grenade - adrenaline and a state of shock. A stunned and blinded criminal may not understand at all where he is running and why. Are his hands handcuffed? Not. I can assume that he was wounded in the arm and just held it. At the end of the assault he is carried out by the hands and they are not connected.

The hostages rush out further and nobody pays attention to them. Although the hostages need to be taken out by ourselves, they should be constantly monitored and inspected (all of a sudden a terrorist donned IEDs or there are accomplices among them). In addition, you need to understand that the hostages are in a state of shock and can inadequately harm themselves or others. Therefore, they should not be left unchecked in any case. Instead, fighters in a crowd begin to burst into the building and, having got there, are clearly confused and do not immediately understand what to do. But in the end they begin to act more or less reasonably, breaking into groups and dispersed. By the way, the entrance of such a crowd is unthinkable here - suddenly in the building of the IED? But, obviously, the French have less experience and they did not even consider such an option. By the way, the hostages should not run out as it was done, they are lucky that they did not run into a bullet. Lie on the floor and wait for it to come out, what are you rushing about?

They accuse me of inaccuracy, they say, all the hostages died before the assault. So said the French prosecutor. Did they perform an autopsy so quickly? How did they manage to immediately determine the cause of death? With such an indiscriminate and dense fire, which the French special forces set up, it is generally surprising how they did not kill everyone. Nevertheless, everything ended relatively well, and blaming the fighters for the lack of real combat experience is stupid. They are not to blame for the fact that terrorist acts are not carried out often in France. Most importantly, they completed the task, albeit not very professionally.
If anyone is interested in the link to the video www.youtube.com/watch? V = f5th6ukPExM

[fennekRUS]

thanks for the correct analysis, much has become clearer

[Curculum]

Quote: TSOOBER

If anyone is interested in the link to the video www.youtube.com/watch? V = f5th6ukPExM

From the video: for 36 seconds, the body flies out with its hands tied up - there are a lot of shots at it. So who is he?

[lukke]

blaming fighters for the lack of real combat experience is stupid. They are not to blame for the fact that terrorist attacks are not often carried out in France

Well, with this approach, it makes no sense at all to create anti-terrorist units. In the USSR, it was also not every day that planes were captured, but this did not prevent Group A (then Office A) from working out all kinds of impossible scenarios on all types of aircraft. That then led to effective work according to the assessments of all experts for the mark "excellent". And the absence of terrorist attacks is just one of the main indicators of the professional work of special services, incl. anti-terror units ...

[Sergei1982]

Yes, similar to Australopithecus far to Alpha TSP.

[Viktor Kudinov]

The country of frightened idiots. For once in Australia, a terrorist attack occurred, so they could not deal with one terrorist normally. They could not kill a woman!

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Victor Kudinov

The country of frightened idiots. For once in Australia, a terrorist attack occurred, so they could not deal with one terrorist normally.

The national anti-terrorist unit was formed in Australia in the 1978 year, during which time dozens if not hundreds of terrorist attacks were prevented, but of course all cannot be prevented.
You, as I see it, are not very in the subject -

Quote: Victor Kudinov

. For once in Australia, a terrorist attack

I will take the liberty of enlightening you.

1. Explosions at the Hilton Hotel, Sydney, February 1978
2. The assassination of the Turkish Consul General, Sydney, December 1980
3. Explosions at the Turkish Consulate, Melbourne, November 1986
4. Attack on the Israeli Consulate, Sydney, December 1982
5. Preparing terrorist attacks at Australian power grid facilities, 2006 year
6. Anti-Terrorist Raid, September 2014

These are the largest milestones of the anti-terrorist unit.
Perhaps you could better sit for months waiting for the attack, maintaining a state of alertness and peak form in yourself and your unit.
But something vague doubts torment me.

[Civil]

Quote: Chronovert

lazy, that’s lost skills

Remember the Nord-Ost

[Sergei1982]

Remember the Nord-Ost

Do not compare 1200 hostages to more than 30 terrorists and capture in Australia, if I am not mistaken in Nord-Osten not one hostage was killed by a bullet

As a result of the terrorist attack, according to official figures, 130 people died, including 10 children. Of the dead hostages, 5 people were shot dead before the assault, the rest died after liberation [79].

During the assault, special gas was used to euthanize members of the terrorist group. On October 27, 2002, the head physician of Moscow Andrei Seltsovsky said: “They don’t die from the use of such special means in their pure form” [80]. According to Seltsovsky, the effects of special gas only complicated the number of destructive factors that the hostages suffered under the conditions created by the terrorists (stressful situations, lack of exercise, lack of food, etc.) [80].

[Professor]

Quote: Sergei1982

Do not compare 1200 hostages to more than 30 terrorists and capture in Australia, if I am not mistaken in Nord-Osten not one hostage was killed by a bullet

Cool!!! They were gassed so that no bullets were needed. Instead of "New details of the storming of a Sydney cafe by Australian special forces, seized in December 2014," it would be better to write "At least some details ... Nord-Ost."

[Sergei1982]

Cool!!! They were gassed so that no bullets were needed. Instead of "New details of the storming of a Sydney cafe by Australian special forces, seized in December 2014," it would be better to write "At least some details ... Nord-Ost."

Maybe you’d better tell about the details of Israeli operations because you have a lot of experience.

[Professor]

Quote: Sergei1982

Maybe you’d better tell about the details of Israeli operations because you have a lot of experience.

Everything has been written there before me about successes (Entebbe) and about failures (Nakhshon Waxman, school in Ma'alot ...)

[Sergei1982]

Everything has been written there before me about successes (Entebbe) and about failures (Nakhshon Waxman, school in Ma'alot ...)

And what I am pointing you to the failures (Nakhshon Waxman, school in Ma'alot ...) no one knows how it would have turned out how it would have turned out, “Sayeret Matkal” had settled down in situations of Nord-Ost, Besslan or Budennovsk.

[Professor]

Quote: Sergei1982

And what I am pointing you to the failures (Nakhshon Waxman, school in Ma'alot ...) no one knows how it would have turned out how it would have turned out, “Sayeret Matkal” had settled down in situations of Nord-Ost, Besslan or Budennovsk.

... I probably only know that the general FSB Shabaka blinking megaterract would not receive a raise, and a bullet flew out of service. I also know that they would not poison hostages with poisonous substances, would not shoot from tanks and flamethrowers at a seized school, no one would have any doubt about the number of victims since they would be listed by name, and immediately. And if even one hostage died, then no one would receive any awards and the operation would be considered a failure with a debriefing and other delights ...

[Rosich333]

Well, you also compared! You still have to drag "Kursk" here, as they like to do dill.

[meriem1]

And they could do something ??? What a prime minister, such a "special forces" ...

[siberalt]

And why is so important the State Department mongrel Abbott, who did not want to save the hostages, through personal negotiations? So this is so necessary for those who stage bloody performances around the world. It’s not difficult to guess who

[Sergei1982]

Pennant Anthem Old


new anthem

I like older people, I don’t know how others do.

[Denis fj]

Bad, mediocre operation !!!! 1 shot was needed there! All the better, we know that these are not capable of anything !!!

[Denis fj]

It’s strange, but what if they were rejoicing, they were so happy when the terrorists killed people in Chechnya, but then they’re silent? .... they dropped fat !!!

[Denis fj]

Why didn't you let the gas in? Learn from Russia. A.

[Sirocco]

Quote: Chronovert

lazy, that’s lost skills

They were not lazy, but did not encounter such a problem as hostage-taking, and treated their work through their sleeves. As in France, only the lazy did not kick the French special forces,
The picture is the same, the movement of the group diagonally, apparently not taught in institutions preparing such specialists in France.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Sirocco

The picture is the same, the movement of the group diagonally, apparently not taught in institutions preparing such specialists in France.

I already realized that it’s useless to argue, on this I will quote the words of a veteran of Chechnya and South Ossetia-

I look at the network chuckling at the French special forces, who climbed with difficulty during a special operation to free the hostages on a small hillock. Grass, rain, that’s the result.
It looks, of course, funny, but equipped to climb on slippery surfaces is really very difficult. Somehow, near Achkhoy-Martan, I had a chance to climb the slope of a mountain steeper than in this video. It was in late February or early March, when it snowed, and the temperature was around -1 - 0. I cursed those 30 meters up. Only trees, which could be grasped by hands, helped to "climb". I went down several times. Several times "skidded" in place.
At the same time, I was only about 20 kg of equipment. The other guys were much less fortunate, they dragged up a stove-potbelly stove ...
As you recall that rise, you don’t feel like laughing.

[Sirocco]

Quote: Karlsonn

I already realized that arguing is useless,

You are right to argue uselessly.
Continuation to your post))))
And where - under Achkhoy? It’s just interesting - they fought in some places, and yet yes, the slopes there are different, I remember that the group’s average daily route was no more than 800 meters. But it was the mountains.
Here is evident - low training of personnel. Such things are worked out much in advance and the weight of the equipment does not matter. Running up the hill, climbing an icy hill, moving an assault group on any surface - these are the basics. Start. The basis. And the weight of the equipment should not play any role - this is their nominal weight. As for you jeans and a jacket.
I think we will not retell comments from the Mokrushin’s blog. There are detailed comments. I am not a representative of the special forces, but I am fond of hunting, and often have to climb the slopes and walk in the mountains, never without a break like these guys from the Special Forces of the Russian Federation.

[rumata63]

maybe there was no practice?

[Kosta153]

If the rebound, then the bullet would be deformed.

[Junior, I]

And there is nothing written about the bullet that it is deformed, there is only an assumption of a rebound.

[Same lech]

It turned out that in the body of the killed hostage Katrina Dawson, experts found exactly the same bullet as in the body of the terrorist Monis. This suggests that of the two hostages, one was killed by Australian police during the assault.

It is easy to establish the examination of all weapons .... only I think no one will do it .... they will write off as related losses that are often inevitable during the assaults of barricaded militants.

[Eragon]

Quote: The same Lech

It turned out that in the body of the killed hostage Katrina Dawson, experts found exactly the same bullet as in the body of the terrorist Monis. This suggests that of the two hostages, one was killed by Australian police during the assault.

It is easy to establish the examination of all weapons .... only I think no one will do it .... they will write off as related losses that are often inevitable during the assaults of barricaded militants.

So there is nothing to understand. Fatal accident, no one specifically aimed at the hostage. Bad luck.

[Junior, I]

It appeared on the line of fire, instead of falling to the floor.

[Same lech]

So there is nothing to understand.

I do not believe in chance in such matters ....
If a bullet of a policeman, as you say, accidentally hit a woman ... then this is a flaw in the special forces attack aircraft.
You have to understand that when shooting indoors, bullet ricochets are inevitable ... you could limit yourself to multiple-shot shotguns with buckshot (the rebound is not so big) ... however, it makes no sense to them to give special forces advice to them better.

[does it]

It turned out that in the body of the killed hostage Katrina Dawson, experts found exactly the same bullet as in the body of the terrorist Monis. This suggests that of the two hostages, one was killed by the Australian police during the assault. Not only the one who does nothing is wrong. This is the best of the worst. Otherwise, religiously minded people from Islamic countries will quickly get a taste.

[Hariva]

experts found exactly the same bullet as in the body of the terrorist Monis. This suggests that of the two hostages, one was killed by Australian police during the assault.

To be honest, I "missed the shore" at all. Don't they use ballistic expertise at all? Is it only determined by appearance?

[APASUS]

Quote: kvirit

Only he who does nothing is not mistaken. This is the best of the worst. Otherwise, religiously minded immigrants from Islamic countries will quickly come to taste.

Mistake ?
When the Special Forces confused the fair-haired Madame with the Iranian practicing Islam!
What kind of special forces is this? This unit is precisely created for such situations.
I remember such squinting specialists from Saudi Arabia turned our Tu-154 into a sieve when they stormed an airplane with Chechen terrorists.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: APASUS

Mistake ?
When the Special Forces confused the fair-haired Madame with the Iranian practicing Islam!

You do not admit that the lady herself flew to the line of fire?
Let me ask you a question - did you take part in the hostilities?

[APASUS]

Quote: Karlsonn

Quote: APASUS

Mistake ?
When the Special Forces confused the fair-haired Madame with the Iranian practicing Islam!

You do not admit that the lady herself flew to the line of fire?
Let me ask you a question - did you take part in the hostilities?

I admit every possibility, only then you should not allow the special forces in the name. If these are oversights made by units specially trained for the assault, then what can you ask the police at all? And yet, the difference between Madame and a Muslim believer of Iranian origin should not be visible to a specialist.
Yes, participated

[alexey garbuz]

And what bastard Monis soaked?

[avvg]

Western Special Services, including Australians, are only strongly advocated. in "Hollywood Movies."

[Same lech]

Western Special Services, including Australians, are only strongly advocated. in "Hollywood Movies."

Yes, unfortunately, the real death and injury of a person is very different from the HOLLYWOOD ARROWS ...

I looked through a lot of documentary video shootings ... there aren’t the same beautiful scenes of death of people, everywhere everything is different ...
different circumstances, weapons, physical and mental state of people, surrounding objects and people ... everything affects the finale in a person’s life.
It happens that a person gets several bullets and he manages to walk or crawl some distance with a broken leg or arm .... in general what to say you need to see it yourself and understand what it means to be under a hail of bullets.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: avvg

Western Special Services, including Australians, are only strongly advocated. in "Hollywood Movies."

Behind the Australians - North Borneo, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Rhodesia, Somalia, Kuwait, Rwanda, East Timor, Sydney Olympic Games in 2000 year, Afghanistan, Iraq.
Do not judge SASR indiscriminately.

[Sergei1982]

Behind the Australians - North Borneo, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Rhodesia, Somalia, Kuwait, Rwanda, East Timor, Sydney Olympic Games in 2000 year, Afghanistan, Iraq.

It’s not anyone who doesn’t argue, the question is, where do they have experience in hostage-freeing, compare it with Alfoy, and in Russia, the SOBR conducts such operations every day, freeing the hostages from a jealous husband, a drunkard or drug addict who took hostages, then from bandits which they squeezed in some sort of bank or store and when they were hiding behind, people simply don’t shout about every corner, and specialists just do their job.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Sergei1982

This is not who does not dispute, the question is different where they have experience in the release of hostages, compare it with Alfoy

If you do not know something, then this is only your trouble.
SASR has vast experience.

Quote: Sergei1982

, yes, in Russia, SOBR conducts such operations every day, freeing hostages from a jealous husband, or a drunkard or drug addict who took hostages, from bandits who were squeezed in some sort of bank or store, and when they were hiding, people just don’t shout about every corner

Do not dump everything in a heap! And the FSB is fighting terror with us, and with the criminals of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. What makes you think that the SASR and the Australian police special forces are ignoramuses?
Since the woman died during her release?
Enchanting!

[Sergei1982]

If you do not know something, then this is only your trouble.
SASR has vast experience.

Give an example of SASR on the release of hostages over the past 10 years, and preferably when there are dozens of terrorists and hundreds of hostages.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Sergei1982

Give an example of SASR on the release of hostages over the past 10 years, and preferably when there are dozens of terrorists and hundreds of hostages.

The situation when hundreds of people are taken hostage and have to be courageous to release special forces is much more characteristic of the general situation in the country than special forces. In Australia, hundreds of hostages have never really been released.
It only means that dozens of terrorists heavily armed did not drop into the center of Sydney. That's all. As for the first part of the question - do you learn how to use Google?
I certainly give lessons, but it's expensive.

[Sergei1982]

The situation when hundreds of people are taken hostage and have to be courageous to release special forces is much more characteristic of the general situation in the country than special forces. In Australia, hundreds of hostages have never really been released.
It only means that dozens of terrorists heavily armed did not drop into the center of Sydney.

And I didn’t even say that it’s the norm when I take hundreds of hostages (this indicates a mess), but Australia does not have such provinces as we have several subjects in the Caucasus that do not have such a multi-ethnic population.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Sergei1982

but Australia does not have such provinces as we have several subjects in the Caucasus

This is true, but is this, and also not the knowledge of history (although it should be noted that, just like other special services, almost all operations are classified as secret) gives us the right to speak of SASR as profane?

Quote: Sergei1982

there is no such multinational population.

Australia is a multinational country, although of course it cannot be compared with Russia.

[Sergei1982]

Australia is a multinational country, although of course it cannot be compared with Russia.

Yes, but these nations in Australia do not have their own isolated territories (excluding Aborigines) of tradition, of everyday life built up over centuries as we have among the peoples of the Caucasus.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Sergei1982

Yes, but these nations in Australia do not have their own isolated territories (excluding Aborigines) of tradition, of everyday life built up over centuries as we have among the peoples of the Caucasus.

And this suggests that Australia's units are ignoramuses?
Yes, Yermolov still carried out the operation to free the hostages - the story of Major Pavel Shvetsov, and if you look, there are earlier examples, but how does this relate to the level of Australians?

[Sergei1982]

And this suggests that Australia's units are ignoramuses?
Yes, Yermolov still carried out the operation to free the hostages - the story of Major Pavel Shvetsov, and if you look, there are earlier examples, but how does this relate to the level of Australians?

The experience comes in real action (tell us about the experience of the Australians in the release of hostages) I hope for you to bring operations involving Alpha to free the hostages is not necessary.
And the fact that they (the Australians) participated in Afghanistan somewhere else, well done praise them, but the release of the hostages is another song, so let's talk about it in more detail. Won France GIGN is a special anti-terrorist unit (Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale ) was considered one of the best in the world according to various ratings (influential publications) and where the result is, our riot police have better performance than their GIGN. So, ahead of the evidence in the studio about the effectiveness of the Australians, I explained why I consider them ineffective now it's your turn to prove that they are pros.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Sergei1982

but the release of the hostages is another song so let's talk about it in more detail.

Let's.

Quote: Sergei1982

. Won France GIGN - anti-terrorist unit of special purpose (Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale). It was considered one of the best in the world according to various ratings (influential publications) and where the result is, our riot police have better performance than their GIGN.

Do you have data on all GIGN operations?
I would be grateful if you share.

Quote: Sergei1982

So, forward the evidence to the studio about the effectiveness of the Australians, I explained why I consider them not effective. Now it's your turn to prove that they are pros.

I did not see a clear explanation of why you think SASR is not effective. Do you have data on all SASR operations to analyze their activities? Bring them and we will carry out a comparative analysis together. I don’t have such data, that's why I don’t presume to judge them by journalistic reporting.
The fact that they are pros, I draw a conclusion from the brief information that has leaked to general use and their track record impresses me personally.

[Sergei1982]

Do you have data on all GIGN operations?

No, of course, don’t say stupid things, I had in mind the recent terrorist attack, there is a video, look, look for the comment of retired intelligence officers.

I did not see a clear explanation of why you think SASR is not effective. Do you have data on all SASR operations to analyze their activities? Bring them and we will carry out a comparative analysis together. I don’t have such data, that's why I don’t presume to judge them by journalistic reporting.

I just asked you for information about the release of the hostages by this unit.
For example, here are some conducted by Alfoy.
December 18-19, 1981 - Sarapul, Udmurt Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic.
Two armed deserters, A. Kolpakbaev and A. Melnikov, from the 248th motorized rifle division took 25 students of the 10th grade of secondary school No. 12 as hostages. Requirement: to issue visas and send by plane to Germany or another western country. In the course of the actions taken, the terrorists were neutralized, none of the hostages was injured. The eldest is the commander of Group A G. N. Zaitsev.
November 19, 1983 - Tbilisi.
The Tu-134A, following the Tbilisi-Leningrad route with 57 passengers on board and 7 crew members, was hijacked by a group of "golden youth" of 7 people. During the raid, they killed the pilots Z. Sharbatyan and A. Chedia, the stewardess V. Krutikov and two passengers. The navigator A. Plotko and flight attendant I. Khimich were seriously injured and remained disabled. On November 19, the aircraft was released during a combined assault undertaken by the employees of Group A (the senior - G. N. Zaitsev). None of the passengers were injured. Capture groups were led by M.V. Golovatov, V.V. Zabrovsky and V.N. Zaitsev.
September 20, 1986 - Ufa.
Three soldiers from the regiment of the Ministry of Internal Affairs - junior sergeant N. Mantsev, Private S. Yagmurzhi and Corporal A. Konoval, being in their internal attire, took possession of weapons (AKM machine gun, RPK-74 light machine gun and Dragunov sniper rifle) and grabbed a taxi. On the way, they shot two policemen - police sergeant Z. Akhtyamov and police junior sergeant A. Galeyev. Frightened by the deed, A. Konoval disappeared, the rest headed to the airfield, where they broke into the landing plane Tu-134A with 76 passengers (among them eight women and six children) and 5 crew members, following the route Lviv - Kiev - Ufa - Nizhnevartovsk. During the capture, deserters killed the passengers of A. Ermolenko and Y. Tikhansky. Terrorists demand: follow to Pakistan. The operation was directly headed by G.N. Zaitsev. As a result of the assault carried out by Alpha employees (the capture group was led by V. N. Zorkin), N. Mantsev was killed and S. Yagmurzhi was wounded in the leg.
August 11-15, 1990 - Sukhumi, Abkhaz ASSR.
22 employees of Group “A” under the command of Colonel V. F. Karpukhin, as well as 31 soldiers of the special forces training battalion (“maroon berets”) of the OMSDON named after F.E. Dzerzhinsky was urgently transferred to Sukhumi, where 75 criminals took hostages and a temporary detention center. During the negotiations, the leaders put forward a demand: to provide them with a RAF minibus so that they could leave the IVS, in the mountains. When the armed bandits, together with the hostages, plunged into the minibus, the capture group began an operation to neutralize them. At the same time, two groups launched an assault on the detention center. In a matter of seconds, the criminals in the RAF were neutralized, the hostages were released. The bandits in the isolator also surrendered after a short resistance. During the operation, Alpha employee I.V. Orekhov and one of the Vityaz fighters Oleg Lebed were slightly injured. This special operation has no analogues in the domestic and world practice of using special forces units for the release of hostages captured by bandits in institutions of the penitentiary system.

[Sergei1982]

And more:
December 5, 1992 - Moscow, Vnukovo Airport.
The release of 347 passengers from the Mineralnye Vody – Moscow flight, captured by single terrorist Zakharyev.
September 20, 1995 —- Makhachkala, Republic of Dagestan.
Terrorists seized a passenger bus bound for the route Makhachkala - Nalchik. Some time later, the terrorists released one woman from the bus, who reported that nine men, seven women and two children were on bail. The hostage-holding terrorists were neutralized by Alpha special forces. The eldest is the commander of Alpha, Lieutenant General A. V. Gusev.
October 14, 1995 - Moscow, Vasilyevsky Descent.
In the immediate vicinity of the Kremlin, a masked man armed with a PM pistol got into a Mercedes bus with 25 South Korean tourists and declared them hostages. If the conditions are not met, the criminal threatened to blow up the bus. At 20 o’clock, FSB special forces officers took up their starting positions. The eldest is the commander of Alpha, Lieutenant General A. V. Gusev. Long criminal negotiations were held with the criminal, in which Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov participated. At about 22 p.m., the terrorist released all the detained women and three men. At 22:38, the assault began on the command of the operation director of the FSB director M.I. The terrorist opened fire with a pistol and was killed. None of the hostages were injured.
July 31, 2001 - Mineralnye Vody.
The terrorist Sultan Said Ediyev, a Chechen by nationality, seized the Ikarus bus, following the flight Nevinnomyssk - Stavropol. The terrorist put forward a demand for the release of thirty-odd passengers in exchange for five criminals convicted in 1994 for hijacking a passenger plane in the Minvody. In the breast pocket of his shirt, the terrorist placed a glass with an F-1 combat grenade with a drawn out check inserted with a fuse down. Wires to the belt on the stomach were also fixed. As it turned out, there was one and a half kilograms of molten TNT. As a result of a filigree sniper assault, the terrorist was destroyed. During the assault on the bus, none of the hostages was injured. The eldest is the head of the Office "A" - V. G. Andreev.
The operations in Beslan, Nord-Ost and Budyonnovsk did not result in a very large scale of hostages and terrorists, and much more, so that it is not possible to give any objective assessment.

The fact that they are pros, I draw a conclusion from the brief information that has leaked to general use and their track record impresses me personally.

Please, now you’ll bring at least 4-5 operations similar to those that I brought (note that there were hostages everywhere and usually dozens, and often on the plane (the release of the plane is considered a masterpiece of the special forces for such recounts and also successful) or the bus) or they are so secret that someone does not know them (then they may not have been).

[Sergei1982]

And the FSB is fighting terror with us, and with the criminals of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

Tell this to the guys from Vityaz and Lynx (SOBR)
Since the beginning of the 1990s, the unit’s employees participated in almost all known special operations in Russia.

In 1993, officers of the SOBR GUUPP of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia accepted a “baptism of fire” in the zone of the Ossetian-Ingush conflict. Here, in conditions of a practically civil war, SOBR officers released civilians taken hostage, both from one side and the other. Carried out combing the mountainous-wooded area, neutralizing and neutralizing the bandit groups and their caches with weapons. The fighting did not stop day or night.

Since 1994, the unit’s employees took part in hostilities in the North Caucasus region (including in the Chechen war).

In May 1994, they took part in an operation to detain four armed Chechens (Magomet Bitsiev’s gang), who seized the Vladikavkaz-Stavropol regular bus, took schoolchildren and teachers hostage, and, after receiving the ransom, attempted to escape by helicopter.

In 1994, two special operations were conducted to free the hostages in the city of Minvody.

In the same 1994, a special operation was conducted to free the hostages from the Yak-42 aircraft seized by criminals in Makhachkala.

The officers of the detachment took part in the New Year's assault on the city of Grozny, experienced the brunt of street fighting, completing all the tasks assigned to them. And further, in a series of fierce battles on the territory of various regions of the rebellious republic, SOBR officers remained an example of the valor and courage of a Russian soldier.

In June 1995, they took part in a special operation in the city of Budennovsk.

In January 1996, they participated in a special operation to neutralize groups of Chechen fighters Salman Raduyev in the city of Kizlyar and with. May Day. During these events, the commander of the detachment, Krestyaninov Andrey Vladimirovich, was killed, another 8 officers of the detachment were injured.

Since 1999, unit employees took part in the hostilities in Chechnya.

In October 2002, detachment officers participated in the assault on a theater center seized by terrorists on Dubrovka in Moscow.

Since 2007 SOBR "Lynx" has been carrying out operational and combat missions in the Republic of Ingushetia.
Now about Vityaz.
Reformation of the 1st regiment into a special unit "Vityaz".

October 23-26. Participation in a special operation to free the hostages captured by Chechen terrorists in the theater center on Dubrovka.

Something you don’t know about the actions of the special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Sergei1982

Something you don’t know about the actions of the special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

Why did you suddenly decide to judge what I know and what not?
Based on the fact that I read something about the Australians?
Yes you are straight Spinoza comrade.

[Sergei1982]

Do not dump everything in a heap! And the FSB is fighting terror with us, and with the criminals of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

Learn the history of the special forces of Russia, not Western countries, otherwise you all know about them, but not much about your own.
Vityaz - the 1st Red Banner Special Forces detachment (1 special forces detachment) of the internal troops of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia, which existed until September 1, 2008. Structurally, the detachment was part of a separate operational division (ODON).

One of the main tasks of the detachment was the fight against terrorism and the release of hostages.
The main objectives of the SOBR "Lynx" are:

the fight against terrorism and extremism;
the fight against organized crime and banditry;
neutralization and neutralization of especially dangerous and armed criminals;
hostage release.

Ignorance of the history of your special forces, but the knowledge of strangers you are not accidentally mishandled by Cossacks from NATO.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Sergei1982

Learn the history of the special forces of Russia, not Western countries, otherwise you all know about them, but not much about your own.

Once again - Dear Friend, stop making stupid conclusions about strangers. Why did you suddenly decide that I know little about mine?

Quote: Sergei1982

Ignorance of the history of their special forces

--- conveniently arranged ---

Dear answer the question
- which gave you an occasion to assert so confidently about my ignorance.

Quote: Sergei1982

but the knowledge of strangers you are not accidentally mishandled by Cossacks from NATO.

Call me - Bond, James Bond.

[Sergei1982]

Once again - Dear Friend, stop making stupid conclusions about strangers. Why did you suddenly decide that I know little about mine

Your quote

Do not dump everything in a heap! And the FSB is fighting terror with us, and with the criminals of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

I gave only superficial examples of participation in large-scale operations to free hostages from terrorists Vityazem and Lynx. You argued that they were not intended for this, but they are part of the structure of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Sergei1982

I gave only superficial examples of participation in large-scale operations to free hostages from terrorists Vityazem and Lynx.

About a bunch, I was surprised by this -

Quote: Sergei1982

SOBR conducts such operations every day, freeing the hostages from the jealous husband, then the drunkard or drug addict who took the hostages

Do you really think so?

Quote: Sergei1982

.You argued that they are not intended for this, but they are included in the structure of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

I haven’t argued anywhere, I

Quote: Sergei1982

And the FSB is fighting terror with us, and with the criminals of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

He pointed to the profile of his work, the fact that the FSB takes apartment houses, frees hostages, the soldiers of the Internal Troops operate in the "green", and the Ministry of Internal Affairs (like the FSB) is doing a great job from operational search, undercover activities, to the traffic police let's just say the features of our country - all of them are fighting terror along the way.
But what is it about? Specifically, the anti-terrorist units to free the hostages.
I hope you are aware that such a collision with "Vityaz" and "Lynx" happened because of the chaos in the country? Internal troops were withdrawn from the Armed Forces of the USSR in March 1989 and subordinated to the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the RSFSR in the fall of 1991.
And it just so happened that in our country there are three departments for the fight against terror and each has special forces of the FSB - "ALFA", Internal troops - "Vityaz" and the Ministry of Internal Affairs - "Lynx", "Bulat", "Bars" and the rest of the SOBR. Each of these units was charged with the fight against terror and the release of hostages, but each has its own profile, for example SOBRs were initially imprisoned to fight organized crime and only then (due to the current disastrous situation) they began to deal with hostages, just the same. " Alpha "and army intelligence were redirected to solving infantry tasks in the first Chechen one. Likewise, with "Vityaz" whose main task was to fight the NFO and armed riots, but then (not from a good life) they listened to the fight against terrorism, and the release of hostages and the protection of officials.

What I want to say with all this scribble - to all soldiers and officers honor and praise, there is no doubt.
But if we are talking about the units that were immediately created to free the hostages, then it’s PROFILE - the FSB, everyone else was "added" this task in the course of the development of units.

[Sergei1982]

What I want to say with all this scribble - to all soldiers and officers honor and praise, there is no doubt.
But if we are talking about the units that were immediately created to free the hostages, then it’s PROFILE - the FSB, everyone else was "added" this task in the course of the development of units.

But you will agree that the FSB did not cope with situations in which we found ourselves in the Caucasus (I read the speeches of the Alpha and Vympel fighters when I got to the point that they traveled 5-6 times in the Caucasus to sleep on a 2-3 day mission hours) and the fact that the COBAR and the special forces of the BB were charged with the fight against terrorism was due to the lack of strength of the SPC Vympel was first ruined and then reoriented (this is not his specificity) Alpha reached the beginning of 2000 that no more than 1/3 the units were really fighters for the rest of the staff and everything else.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Sergei1982

But you will agree that in situations of which we found ourselves in the Caucasus, the FSB FSN could not cope

Then - in the First Chechen, as I have already indicated, the "sunflowers" were driven as ordinary infantry, there was such a thing. This does not mean that they did not cope, it means that there was a mess.

Quote: Sergei1982

) and the fact that the COBAR and the special forces of VV were charged with the fight against terrorism, this is because the CSN did not have enough forces

The leadership of the country and the power structures lacked intelligence.

[Sergei1982]

The leadership of the country and the power structures lacked intelligence.

And it was. But there was a collapse

In 1993, the group became part of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. There, the unit was called Vega. Of the several hundred people, fifty agreed to put on police uniforms. Other commandos left for the foreign intelligence service, helped to take the Russians out of Africa’s hot spots, others in the Ministry of Emergency Situations. Twenty returned to the FSK, the newly created Special Operations Directorate (now the FSB FSB).

[AndreyS]

Deeply respected Karlsonn, you will forgive me for interfering in your highly intelligent conversation, but while Sergei1982 is right as before, and about the fact that SOBR conducts such operations almost every day and that you are wrong in your statement about

Quote: Karlsonn

And the FSB is fighting terror with us, and with the criminals of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

! Because if you wanted to write about the profile of special units, then it was necessary for you to write - they must fight. But at the same time I want to add that our country is huge and you won’t get enough alpha everywhere, so SOBR

Quote: Karlsonn

were originally imprisoned for the fight against organized crime and only then (due to the prevailing situation) did they become involved in hostages

as you wrote "...due to the prevailing situation... "as long as you wait for specialists from Alfa in Tmutarakan, there will be a bunch of corpses. But I will add that employees of the special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia, almost every day, really have to carry out tasks to neutralize armed criminals (with the taking of hostages, the same references to the seizures: http://ria.ru/spravka/20130314/927318738.html, http://www.rg.ru/2014/12/12/reg-sibfo/zalojniki-anons.html http://www.rg.ru /2014/11/26/reg-cfo/salognicy-anons.html http://www.rg.ru/2014/11/05/reg-ufo/zalognik-anons.html http://www.rg.ru /2014/05/08/reg-urfo/zalognik-anons.html http://www.rg.ru/2014/04/30/reg-cfo/sud-anons.html http://www.rg.ru /2013/12/11/reg-pfo/zalozhnitsa-anons.html http://www.rg.ru/2013/09/16/prestyplenia-site.html http://www.rg.ru/2013/08 /16/reg-cfo/poliz-anons.html http://www.rg.ru/2013/06/28/reg-sibfo/zahvat-anons.html)
By the way, according to the profile, a special unit of the FSB "Alpha" is intended to neutralize terrorists, and not all hostage-taking are terrorist acts!

[gispanec]

Quote: Sergei1982

Ignorance of the history of your special forces, but the knowledge of strangers you are not accidentally mishandled by Cossacks from NATO.

well, if you know a lot about our specialists, then enlighten the comrades about the "Raven" ... what tell our omniscient))

[Karlsonn]

Quote: gispanec

Well, since you know a lot about our specialists

I think that, in fact, in vain they did a lot about the special forces in the public domain. For example, a photo of the SVR "Zaslon" fighters, in which Rogozin is with them in Damascus, got into the media.
These people do not need fame at all.
Rogozin's photo from Facebook has been erased, but it has already diverged.

[Sergei1982]

I think that, in fact, in vain they did a lot about the special forces in the public domain. For example, a photo of the SVR "Zaslon" fighters, in which Rogozin is with them in Damascus, got into the media.
These people do not need fame at all.
Rogozin's photo from Facebook has been erased, but it has already diverged.

Well, there have been rumors about the Barrier for a long time, but no one really knew for sure whether they were or not.

[Sergei1982]

well, if you know a lot about our specialists, then enlighten the comrades about the "Raven" ... what tell our omniscient))

ROSN Voron UFSB in the Voronezh region.

[Thompson]

It is a pity for a woman, but it is difficult to prevent such a situation!

[hly]

It is interesting to Putin that all Russians will be blamed for rebounding.

[Junior, I]

No, they will attribute that this terrorist, mishandled by the Cossack of the Darkest.

[Russian Uzbek]

remember how many victims were in Budennovsk, Beslan, Nord-Ost remember ...
another thing is important here: the state’s determination to destroy terrorists in spite of civilian casualties ...

[Sergei1982]

another thing is important here: the determination of the state to destroy terrorists in spite of civilian casualties ..

I agree.

remember how many victims were in Budennovsk, Beslan, Nord-Ost remember ...

But do not you think that these facts and the capture in Australia are not comparable in Budennovsk, Beslan, the Nord-Ost there were more than a thousand hostages in each case and 30-40 terrorists, in Budenovsk the failure was due to Chernomyrdin when he ordered to return back during the assault . In Nord = Osten, the hostages died from gas poisoning; more wine from the Ministry of Emergency Situations and doctors, why didn’t they provide the antidote to those who suffered in a timely manner?

[gross kaput]

Because they were afraid of information leakage and the doctors were not warned in advance. Nobody knew about the use of gas until the very end, just before the assault they gave the command to check the gas masks of the special forces of the explosives, which was supposed to support alpha, it turned out that many gas masks simply did not exist and in their bags there was anything but them that had been collected from the soldiers but many climbed to take out hostages without gas masks and breathed themselves.

[DV69]

Quote: gross kaput

Because they were afraid of information leakage and the doctors were not warned in advance. Nobody knew about the use of gas until the very end, just before the assault they gave the command to check the gas masks of the special forces of the explosives, which was supposed to support alpha, it turned out that many gas masks simply did not exist and in their bags there was anything but them that had been collected from the soldiers but many climbed to take out hostages without gas masks and breathed themselves.

Actually, it's still easier. Employees of the Central Internal Affairs Directorate in Moscow and the Moscow Region did not provide the opportunity for the arrival of ambulances directly to the place of the special operation. They simply did not clear the roadway and the territory adjacent to the recreation center from cars and onlookers. As a result, the fighters of the TsSN of the FSB of Russia literally delivered people to the ambulances.
As a result, time was lost.
In addition, it is necessary to "thank" the press, which literally broadcast on air all the actions of the special forces in preparation for the assault.

[Sergei1982]

As a result, the fighters of the TsSN of the FSB of Russia literally delivered people to the ambulances.
As a result, time was lost.

I also wanted to write about it.

In addition, it is necessary to "thank" the press, which literally broadcast on air all the actions of the special forces in preparation for the assault.

In general, the press must take away more problems than good from hostage-taking.

[Bongo]

Quote: Sergei1982

In Nord = Osten, the hostages died from gas poisoning; more wine from the Ministry of Emergency Situations and doctors, why didn’t they provide the antidote to those who suffered in a timely manner?

The Ministry of Emergency Situations and doctors have an antidote for narcotic analgesics Where do they come from that daily deal with this group of substances? In certain concentrations, narcotic analgesics act like nerve agents of phosphorus-organic OM.

[Sergei1982]

Emergencies Ministry and doctors have an antidote for narcotic analgesics

Do you know that narcotic analgesics were used there, everyone wonders what was used there, and you know .

[Bongo]

Quote: Sergei1982

Do you know that narcotic analgesics were used there, everyone wonders what was used there, and you know

If you do not own the information, this does not mean that the rest does not own it.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Russian Uzbek

remember how many victims were in Budennovsk, Beslan

Well so and operations there were carried out as a matter of fact military, but not special. And the scale of the seizures also leave their mark.

Quote: Russian Uzbek

Nord-Ost remember ...

The losses among the hostages are entirely on the conscience of the bandits, the media and the leadership of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, which did not foresee the need for mass evacuation of the victims.
In all these cases, there should be no complaints against special forces soldiers.

[zavesa01]

If there were two or more terrorists then you can still understand. But a group working on one goal to eliminate, and not saving the hostage is a minus of preparation.

[Hey]

Against the background of all such news, I prefer this one:

During the test, the S300V4 anti-aircraft missile system (SAM) confirmed the ability to hit air targets with a range of up to 400 kilometers, Lieutenant General Alexander Leonov, the head of the Air Defense Forces of the Russian Federation, said on Saturday.

"The S300V4 system is armed with two types of missiles: a heavy missile with a range of up to 400 kilometers against air targets, with a hypersonic speed (approximately Mach 7,5), and a light missile with a range of up to 150 kilometers," Lieutenant General Alexander Leonov said.

RIA Novosti http://ria.ru/defense_safety/#14209618631874&message=resize&relto=login&action=r
emoveClass & value = registration # ixzz3OUpeAN3R

[Same lech]

Against the background of all such news, I prefer this one:

Always would be ... everyday

[Junior, I]

On Sunday, January 11, in Germany, unidentified people set fire to the office of the Hamburger Morgenpost newspaper, which had recently reprinted cartoons of the fateful magazine Charlie Hebdo.
- Unknown, apparently, shortly after 2 hours of the night they threw incendiary staff from the back yard into the newspaper archive building. Some documents burned out, people were not injured, - reporters reported on their official website.
At the moment, the police detained two young people who were suspiciously behaving in the vicinity of the incident. Now they are being interrogated.
The attack on the publication, which printed the caricatures of Muslims outraged by the Prophet Muhammad, was launched by the brothers Said and Sharif Kuashi. The murderers managed to escape from the place of the bloody massacre, later their traces were found in the suburbs of the French capital. Militants have already been eliminated.

But the willow of Germany began

[11111mail.ru]

The death of a hostage is sad. On this site, as I understand it, mostly service people, what is the so-called. "friendly fire" is represented. Well, the woman turned out to be in the line of fire, did not have time to jump to the floor, probably no one taught her this!
Can we remember about more than 100 hostages who did not wake up during the liquidation of the attack on Dubrovka in Moscow? Well done Ramzan Kadyrov that tightened the requirements for the relatives of the bandits! Genghis Khan in this case acted even more radically: to the seventh knee all relatives and leave only those below the cart axis.

[sabakina]

Would you still remember a school in Beslan ... Who is easier to neutralize 2-3 terrorists or 50-100? Who is easier to free 1-2 hostages or 150-200?
And to fall to the floor with us it is already at the genetic level ... True, some genes have mutated ...
The dead are always sorry, because they are not to blame for being in the wrong place and at the wrong time ...

[varela]

The sofa specialists, who are arguing here, would have been in the place of special forces, and I would take their relatives hostage.
Would look at a master class ...

[020205]

It’s not so clear how that killed woman behaved, no one knows, the situation is stressful, she could well jump up and run to meet the policemen! And you can’t do this categorically, the policeman could shoot at her with the machine gun, no one insured, who knows what she wanted and why she runs at all! But this is only if she really jerked! The major mentor in the column always told us that even if you are sitting in a tavern and heapes up riot police, you need to carry out all his commands, and don’t in any case, do not wave the xenon and scream mine, otherwise you can not grab the bullet on the scoreboard or worse the bullet! This is to say that no one knows all the details of the operation and doesn’t know when! And sitting and talking supposedly lazy skill they lost it somehow ... well, not so! People from year to day train and prepare. It is clear that they have less experience in this regard, but this does not beg their merits

[ICT]

Quote: 020205

how that murdered woman behaved no one knows

yes ghoul can, stupidly she hid behind it options are not so few

[kelevra]

In Australia, nothing like this ever happened, and when such a situation appeared, they simply fired at everything in order to kill the terrorist and finish the operation!

[qQQQ]

The easiest way to blame the special forces. Whatever happens, you won’t foresee everything, and the special forces are also people, operating under the most extreme conditions, and the hostage does not say on his forehead that he is a hostage, and if he acts improperly, they treat him like a terrorist. Unfortunately, such cases are inevitable.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: qqqq

The easiest way to blame the special forces.

Comrade, don’t you see? Here the seasoned wolfhounds gathered which on the basis of one short note can criticize and parse the actions of the Australians as a chess game.

[starshina pv]

The forest is cut, chips fly, we better or what?

[zinander]

Quote: starshina pv

The forest is cut, chips fly, we better or what?

In our country, fighters of children shut themselves up, they haven’t heard something like that ..

[Sergei1982]

In our country, fighters of children shut themselves up, they haven’t heard something like that ..

Close, wait, but we have fans of the special forces of Australia

Karlsonn (3) SU Today, 11:14 ↑ New
Quote: Sergei1982
This is not who does not dispute, the question is different where they have experience in the release of hostages, compare it with Alfoy

If you do not know something, then this is only your trouble.
SASR has vast experience.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Sergei1982

Close, wait, but we have fans of the special forces of Australia

Fan?
No, I'm not a fan, I just have a little knowledge.
And I do not take the liberty of judging people without knowing the course of the operation, on the basis of only a journalistic article.
But you, as I managed to notice, are not a big fan of literacy.
But so be it, I will help you - if the word underscores in red in your comment, then there is an error in it, you should not rush to send this comment, for example, use Google to find and delete the error, since personal knowledge is not enough.

[Sergei1982]

But you, as I managed to notice, are not a big fan of literacy.
But so be it, I will help you - if the word underscores in red in your comment, then there is an error in it, you should not rush to send this comment, for example, use Google to find and delete the error, since personal knowledge is not enough.

Thank you, I’ll think about your proposal, but for now you’ll better study the scope of the special forces of the BB and the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Sergei1982

, while you better study the scope of the special forces of the explosives and the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

Why did you decide that I do not know this? Are you tired of coming up with what I know and what not?

Quote: Sergei1982

Thank you, I will think over your proposal.

You don’t need to think, you should strive to write correctly, thereby you not only express respect for the interlocutor, but also for yourself.

[Sergei1982]

Close, wait, but we have fans of the special forces of Australia

In general, the phrase “close” will be applied to the Australians, and not to our guys carefully read before minus.

[tasha]

Only the terrorist is to blame for the death of the hostage. Indirectly - the government and law enforcement agencies that allowed the hostage-taking. The investigation should be carried out in any case, but only with the aim of drawing appropriate conclusions for the future, and not to hang everything on the security forces directly involved in the assault. Only here is how to explain this to the relatives of the deceased woman ...

[Horn]

It is not sad, but the only right tactic should recognize the policy of the Jews in relation to terrorists and hostages. No negotiations, the hostage is declared dead. And that’s all, the meaning of hostage taking is lost.

[skifd]

In some comments, I note the desire to simply mark on the bones ... Such specialists are. IMHO.

[Arkan]

Yes, the training of "special forces" among the Australopithecus is lame. We felt them "weakly".

[lpd1]

From the Australian special forces, that from the shit bullet!

[LukaSaraev]

Quote: Chronovert

lazy, that’s lost skills

This is AUSTRALIA !! Where did they get the skills? And for what? There is almost no crime there. There is a freebie for life! She is far away, Australia, and in order to attract the attention of Ab (God forgive me) Bot threatened Putin!
Special Forces...

[Dembel77]

As a result of the assault, two hostages died, another five were injured.

I understand that there were seven hostages? I wonder how many special forces were!

[VNP1958PVN]

Democracy - it does not guarantee bullets It guarantees freedom from: drink, eat, send natural necessities for free ...

[skifd]

There was an acquaintance (transferred or transferred to another region) worked in this "system". I couldn't even get him to talk over a glass, the topic was closed. He hated journalists and was quietly seething from "debriefing" in the media. And in general, I only watched sports and the weather forecast in the news. I know about two awards and one wound. I think it is not enough to "know" about something, as they say:
"Everyone imagines himself to be a strategist,
Seeing the fight from the side ... "(C)
And then some broke up.

[Sergei1982]

There was an acquaintance (transferred or transferred to another region) worked in this "system". I couldn't even get him to talk over a glass, the topic was closed. He hated journalists and was quietly seething from "debriefing" in the media.

There is a true friend, not from the FSB, but from the Tyumen SOBR who also does not like to talk about.

[Klim2011]

A bit of humor doesn't hurt.

[aba]

Quote: TSOOBER

If anyone is interested in the link to the video

Yes, it is clearly visible that they need a dead terrorist - they shot him with the whole crowd at point blank range.

[guznorodov]

A failed operation, not special forces but timid girls who first came out on the dance floor.

[Massik]

You won’t say anything on such a muddy video, but if they had shown the corpse of the striker in detail, his weapon, it would have been possible to say something.

[AndreyS]

Unfortunately, even in this muddy video, it is clear that the "terrorist" runs out at them without a weapon in his hands, and the weapon dangles to the right almost at the knee (a small-sized machine gun, or a submachine gun) for 36 seconds. this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=f5th6ukPExM
True, his hands are folded as if in the hands of a gun, but there is no way to consider. And shooting almost at each other in general raises doubts about the professionalism of the French special forces. Well, something like this.