Military Review

Who destroyed the USSR

72
Who destroyed the USSR


Still, it was not for nothing that I called Vladimir Fedorin an outstanding Russian journalist a few weeks ago - now he holds the primacy in finding one, it seems to me, very important historical sensations: transcripts of him, that is, Bush, of telephone conversations with Soviet leaders in the autumn of 1991 were published on an unreadable website of the Presidential Library of George W. Bush. This publication is all the more important because we don’t just know nothing about the final period of the history of the Soviet Union, but we know too much superfluous, that is, either a direct lie, or half-truth with retroactive accents.

The modern press lived by some very indecent illusions, and later memoirists from Korzhakov to Gaidar were too passionate about finding excuses for their own actions of that autumn. There is another completely disgraceful source, according to which, I am afraid, many more generations of researchers will form their own idea of ​​the last days of the USSR - the book “In the Politburo of the CPSU Central Committee” several times republished by the Gorbachev, but these records are in many ways (at one time one of the chapters of this book was remarkably dismantled and trampled by our great archivist Kozlov), either heavily edited with hindsight, or simply made up, but sold as genuine creations Levski protocols Gorbachev era; you can not do it this way.

In general, if anyone ever sits down to write his “Red-Brown Wheel” about the collapse of the Soviet Union, it will be incredibly difficult; the only thing that can still be hoped for is that in the Western archives there are still a lot of unpublished treasures like those found by Fedorin.

So, phone conversations of Bush Sr. with Gorbachev, Yeltsin and Kravchuk. First of all, Bush’s own role as the supreme arbiter in all Soviet affairs of the past ninety-first year is impressive. Somehow it was not very common for us to pronounce it out loud, but by the time of its dissolution in Belovezhskaya Pushcha, the Soviet Union was a real satellite of the USA, and if Gorbachev somehow managed to prevent the “biggest geopolitical catastrophe”, then we may even would have survived to the notorious "NATO bases in Sevastopol," which, however, would not upset anyone; the story is generally a very bizarre thing, it's time to get used to it.

The most uninteresting role in the whole pre-Belovezhskaya intrigue is the role of Kravchuk and Ukraine, and this also strikes: neither Bush, nor Gorbachev, nor Yeltsin recognize any right to subjectivity for Ukraine and do not hide it at all. Ukraine is just a map in the conflict between Yeltsin and Gorbachev. It is not for nothing that Bush speaks before the referendum only with two of them, not with Kravchuk (he will talk with him after — just to congratulate, nothing more).

Yes, Ukraine is about to hold a referendum on independence, the procedure is quite ritual and predictable - the same ritual and predictable as the March referendum on the preservation of the USSR, in which Ukraine, like all the republics loyal to Moscow, voted for the Union. No one doubts about the December referendum - of course, they will vote for independence. But for Gorbachev, and for Yeltsin, Ukrainian independence is only a reason to present Bush his vision of further developments. Gorbachev’s version - there’s nothing terrible in Ukraine’s independence, in the renewed Union all republics will be independent; Gorbachev even refers to the USA — after all, every state is also sovereign, but so what?

Yeltsin from the Ukrainian referendum draws completely opposite conclusions - he insists that the word “independence” should be interpreted on the most radical scale, Ukraine leaves immediately and forever, and without Ukraine there can be no Union. It reads quite clearly: there is no Union, and there is no Gorbachev. Yeltsin is not interested in having Gorbachev, and that’s why he doesn’t need a union.

The extra arguments by which Gorbachev and Yeltsin each incline Bush to their side are extremely interesting. Both veiled threatened - but each in its own way. Gorbachev removes from the sleeve what we used to call the “Lukyanov Doctrine” (once again I want to breathe, to what extent an inaccurate term - of course, this is Gorbachev's doctrine, his idea and his trump card): if the Union Republic takes the path of separatism, then the Union Republic The center has the right to stimulate pro-Soviet separatism within the republic itself, as in Transdniestria and South Ossetia. It's funny to read it in 2014 - Gorbachev threatens to apply the “doctrine” in the Crimea and Donetsk, but he himself demonstrates the inevitability of his defeat: Gorbachev himself does not have resources for the Crimean and Donetsk separatism, and he tells Bush about some mythical people from Yeltsin’s entourage, who are ready to insist on revising the Russian borders (the only such person at that time was Yeltsin’s press secretary, Pavel Voshchanov, who in August 1991 of the year timidly spoke on this topic in Nezavisimaya Gazeta; after Belovezhskaya Pushcha Voshch Nova will send in his resignation, and the new "Imperials" in the Kremlin will appear much later).

But the most incredible and the only thing in those transcripts that makes now, reading them, exclaim "well, wow!" - this is Yeltsin's argument. Yeltsin explains to Bush that Russia as a Slavic state without Ukraine will find itself in Gorbachev's Union alone with Muslim states, and for the Slavic state such a state of affairs is unacceptable. It is difficult to keep from swearing epithets; No, I understand that a politician must be a hypocrite and use in the negotiations precisely those arguments that will affect his interlocutor, but there is a limit to everything - to portray a Islamophobe and defender of Slavs (did you ever hear the word “Slavic” in official rhetoric of post-Soviet Russia? at least sometime?) - this is some kind of transcendental, inhuman cynicism, especially given the further fate of the Slavic population in those Muslim countries from which, according to the transcript of the conversation with Bush, Yeltsin wanted to distance himself.

We knew, of course, that the agreement in Belovezhskaya Pushcha and the dissolution of the USSR were aimed at depriving Gorbachev of power, and there were no fundamental historical ideas or, as it was already fashionable to say, geopolitical ideas among the participants of the Belovezhskaya collusion. The transcripts published by the Bush library simply show in detail how exactly our country approached Bialowieza, who had the last word and how it sounded. It is clear that now it does not matter, but still - when someone again tells you that the Soviet Union ruined Gorbachev to hang out beautifully, show him these transcripts. And if Vladimir Putin ever again wants to talk about a “geopolitical catastrophe”, let him come to the Novodevichy cemetery, where the real author of this catastrophe lies on the central alley under the white-blue-red boulder.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.svpressa.ru/politic/article/101058/
72 comments
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  1. Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 17 October 2014 18: 23
    +39
    We collapsed request Who is actively participating and who is inaction and indifference A-la to the current Khokhlyatsky-type hut with the edge And all who, at the time of the collapse, were in a conscious age, are responsible for this
    1. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 17 October 2014 18: 29
      +10
      Minus from the one who went with bare hands to disperse the democrats at the White House and he was not supported? wassat
      1. DRA-88
        DRA-88 17 October 2014 18: 53
        +29
        Now our challenge for future generations recreate the USSR! This will become National Idea for which there’s no need to agitate anyone !!!
        1. Alex_Popovson
          Alex_Popovson 17 October 2014 19: 39
          -35
          recreate the USSR!

          Not worth it. I’m not very sure that while you recreate the USSR, the sea of ​​people will not perish - from war, hunger and infections. Or have you tried on commissar clothes for yourself and got Mauser from under the floor?
          1. DRA-88
            DRA-88 17 October 2014 20: 20
            +14
            Quote: Alex_Popovson
            Or have you tried on commissar clothes for yourself and got Mauser from under the floor?

            I would like to poke fun at you, like I didn’t take off my clothes, but I kept the Mauser over the floor! laughing
            But the question for me is sooo serious therefore:
            Quote: Alex_Popovson
            I’m not very sure that while you recreate the USSR, the sea of ​​people will not perish - from war, hunger and infections.

            The liquidation of the bourgeoisie as a class (leaving only small shopkeepers) is the recipe for peace and prosperity! And there’s no war in fact, because this class in Russia is not numerous ... if I have not convinced you, then try to read the classics or at least turn to the experience of previous generations! hi
            1. Silumin
              Silumin 17 October 2014 20: 48
              -4
              no war proper, because this class in Russia is not numerous


              But he is in power.

              Yes, and the USSR is needed only for us - the elders (I summarize by age, I don’t need it either), he didn’t give up hell for youth.
              1. Stypor23
                Stypor23 17 October 2014 20: 58
                +9
                Quote: Silumin
                no war proper, because this class in Russia is not numerous


                But he is in power.

                Yes, and the USSR is needed only for us - the elders (I summarize by age, I don’t need it either), he didn’t give up hell for youth.

                If USSR-2 will be like modern China, then young people will want and continue the work of their fathers. And there will certainly be executions, without them anywhere, especially in ideological and financial spheres.
                1. Silumin
                  Silumin 17 October 2014 21: 07
                  0
                  If USSR-2 will be like modern China, then youth will want and continue the work of their fathers.


                  Somehow modern youth is not eager to go to China, but wants to hit the road for permanent residence in Germany, France, Great Britain, and the USA.

                  And necessarily executions, without them anywhere, especially in ideological and financial spheres.


                  And I say not mandatory, a simple example. In Denmark, the level of corruption is two times lower than in China. But there are no executions.

                  especially in ideological and financial spheres.


                  Can he just start raising children and grandchildren and start pushing honest people into politics?
                  1. Stypor23
                    Stypor23 17 October 2014 21: 23
                    +3
                    Quote: Silumin
                    Somehow modern youth is not eager to go to China, but wants to hit the road for permanent residence in Germany, France, Great Britain, and the USA.

                    For permanent residence, those who have denyuzhki are eager.
                    Quote: Silumin
                    And I say not mandatory, a simple example. In Denmark, the level of corruption is two times lower than in China. But there are no executions.

                    That's right. Danes have homosexual-Arab / non-loveable democracy, killing even a 50-time rapist is a big sin.
                    Quote: Silumin
                    Can he just start raising children and grandchildren and start pushing honest people into politics?

                    Exactly. But to educate in the interests of a single country, and not save the whole world, to the detriment of us, it’s all the same, as history has shown us more than once, 99% of Russia’s saved, warmed and saved, they won’t even say thank you. Shot of a corrupt official, landing honest in his chair. When he is squandered, he follows in the footsteps of his predecessor.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                      1. Userpic
                        Userpic 18 October 2014 01: 06
                        +5
                        Quote: severniy
                        humpbacked


                        Pure for reference

                      2. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 01: 41
                        +2
                        Quote: Userpic
                        Pure for reference

                        You + 100500
                  2. avia1991
                    avia1991 18 October 2014 00: 47
                    +6
                    Quote: Silumin
                    In Denmark, the level of corruption is two times lower than in China. But there are no executions.

                    Right! And in Denmark, sexual minorities almost prevail over heterosexuals! Maybe we should adopt this too!! ..
                    Our Asia, my dear, is very strong, "you to me - I to you" has always been, and such behavior can be suppressed only by tough measures!
                    Quote: Silumin
                    Somehow modern youth is not eager to go to China, but wants to hit the road for permanent residence in Germany,
                    And don't you remember WHAT young people are eager to go there? "Gold" which? So for God's sake! Let them knock down, and at the same time grab their daddies, mommies, aunts, and so on. You look, and you won't have to shoot anyone for corruption!
                    And then, WHO SAYS WHAT TO GO TO CHINA? We must build a normal country at home! And an example from China - why not take it? They do pretty good!
                    That "youth" wants to leave, who do not want to do anythingbut at the same time wants to spend money freely! Do not forget to throw mud at the country, which gave them the opportunity to live like this. And the source of money in the form of a daddy’s account will run out - and in the West nobody will need it, fuck these kids! Don't think u many thinking people such a prospect is delightful wassat
                    1. Silumin
                      Silumin 18 October 2014 01: 09
                      -4
                      Right! And in Denmark, sexual minorities almost prevail over heterosexuals!


                      Have gay men and lesbians offended you?

                      We have asia


                      Why do you think so? We are neither Asians in terms of life, nor in relation to life, nor even in appearance.

                      When I was in China (typically Asian countries), it was very surprising that when a Chinese person enters a bus, he first takes a seat at someone else, even if there are empty seats.

                      In Russia (as in Europe), they primarily try to sit separately, and when there are no separate places, then only they sit down. Individualism, however.

                      And don't you remember WHAT young people are eager to go there? "Gold" which? So for God's sake! Let them knock down, and at the same time grab their daddies, mommies, aunts, and so on. You look, and you won't have to shoot anyone for corruption!


                      Not only gold, but between the desire to go and really go is a big chasm. Just five hours ago I asked a question to five young people: Where did you want to live in Europe or China? All five answered - in Europe.

                      We must build a normal country at home! And an example from China - why not take it? They do pretty good!


                      At the same time, in China there is no such thing as the payment of pensions, and working conditions are so good that at large enterprises under the windows stretched nets for catching suicides.

                      And young people, somehow, do not really want to live as a huge family in a small apartment, building "Chinese socialism", while ruining their health in hazardous industries.

                      Those "youth" who want to leave want to do nothing, but at the same time want to spend their money freely!


                      From my own experience, I know that it is young people who want graduates from Europe to graduate from technical, technological universities

                      Do not forget to throw mud at the country, which gave them the opportunity to live like this. And the source of money in the form of a daddy’s account will run out - and in the West nobody will need it, fuck these kids! I don’t think that many thinking people have such a prospect.


                      Of course, I understand that you are offended by the golden youth, but it is half a percent on the strength, but there are many others who would like to go to Europe for permanent residence.
                      1. Stypor23
                        Stypor23 18 October 2014 01: 16
                        +5
                        Silumin, you with your liberal sugar lips remind you of the Gaidar and other reformers-balaboloks. Well, if you want to go to the European club for pedagogical, lesbian, trans, and other Dutch people, then go to health. And we don’t want these perversions.
                        BTW, ALL GOOD MORNING, LORD. laughing
                      2. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 01: 18
                        -8
                        Well, if you want to go to a European to p.di.kam, lesbians, trance and other Dutch people, then go to health.


                        Similarly, if you want to developed socialism, the suitcase station is China, or North Korea.
                      3. Stypor23
                        Stypor23 18 October 2014 01: 31
                        +3
                        Quote: Silumin
                        Well, if you want to go to a European to p.di.kam, lesbians, trance and other Dutch people, then go to health.


                        Similarly, if you want to developed socialism, the suitcase station is China, or North Korea.

                        Not developed socialism, but a rich and well-fed country, without drulek and enemy litter.
                      4. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 01: 39
                        -5
                        , and a rich and well-fed country, without drulek and enemy litter.


                        So go to China, what's the problem? There is your dream, there is socialism, a rich, well-fed country without druleks and enemy bedding.
                      5. Stypor23
                        Stypor23 18 October 2014 01: 48
                        +7
                        Quote: Silumin
                        So go to China

                        I don’t need a foreign land. I’m not a visiting one. Let the whole World disappear and your home (in Russia) should be in order. In essence, your beloved Europeans, Americans, Japanese, Israelis live such ideas.

                        to the bulb, how many Africans, Asians, and Indians died in a year, the main thing is that everything is fine with them. Remember how the European girl set up her ass, Adolph Aloizovich. With pleasure she pleased orally and differently, if only she wouldn’t take the little house and the fireplace.
                      6. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 02: 02
                        -2
                        In fact, your beloved Europeans, Americans, Japanese, and Israel live on such ideas. They wondered how many Africans, Asians, and Indians died in a year, the main thing is that everything is fine with them.


                        So in any country it should be. But socialism can only be reached by peaceful means, and not through revolutions. Switzerland as an example.

                        Remember how the European girl set up her ass, Adolph Aloizovich. With pleasure she indulged orally and differently, if only she would not take away the house and the fireplace.


                        There were reasons for that, and they were not going to destroy and enslave them.
                      7. Stypor23
                        Stypor23 18 October 2014 02: 08
                        +2
                        Quote: Silumin
                        Switzerland as an example.

                        This is the country where the minority is a white man in the football team. There is no such happiness. Ass kissing is already coming out of France sideways. They only want to thank you for it and riots suit them ................. the poor do not understand.
                        Quote: Silumin
                        There were reasons for that, and they were not going to destroy and enslave them.

                        Yhy, they only wanted to clean the Jews.
                      8. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 02: 14
                        -3
                        This is the country in whose football team the white man is a minority.


                        Our teams are no better.

                        Ass kissing already comes out to France sideways. The ones who come here just want to thank you and riots suit ................. they poor people don’t understand.


                        Is it better with us? Would it be better under socialism? No, it was not.

                        Yhy, they only wanted to clean the Jews.


                        Compare Paris during the occupation, and Kiev.
                      9. Stypor23
                        Stypor23 18 October 2014 02: 24
                        +3
                        Quote: Silumin
                        Our teams are no better.

                        Still better in this regard.
                        Quote: Silumin
                        Is it better with us? Would it be better under socialism? No, it was not.

                        I’ll explain to you once again that people want the revival of the USSR not in the form in which it existed, but in a modified one, which focuses on Man and His People. But not in the Western understanding of man, as a 2-legged creature with a member poking in all cracks, but a rich man spiritually and financially. Simply put, a population re-equipped with everything necessary without sexual and other deviations.
                      10. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 02: 32
                        -1
                        I’ll explain to you once again, people want the revival of the USSR not in the form in which it existed, but modified, in which attention is focused on the Man and His People


                        So I only dream about it, 3.5 elders for the entire population of the Russian Federation, I repeat once again that youth does not need this, let them just live and improve the country that they inherited, without any re-planning and revolution.

                        and a rich man spiritually and financially. Simply put, a population re-equipped with everything necessary without sexual and other deviations.


                        These deviations will all be early, and this does not depend on the Western-not Western way of life, but on other factors, for example, children's psychological injuries.

                        And so people want to work, earn money, live worthily and raise children, and at the same time they do not want the state to interfere in their lives (except taxes, elections, and all sorts of benefits and monetary incentives) and all the more so they do not get into their bed.
                      11. Stypor23
                        Stypor23 18 October 2014 02: 41
                        +2
                        Quote: Silumin
                        So I only dream about it, 3.5 elders for the entire population of the Russian Federation, I repeat once again that youth does not need this, let them just live and improve the country that they inherited, without any re-planning and revolution.

                        I'm actually not an old fart. Rather, even young people. That's right, right now, the youngsters want to twirl their ass in discos.
                        Quote: Silumin
                        and even more so did not get into their bed

                        Nobody wants this. The conversation is that burns should be burned with a hot iron.
                      12. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 03: 03
                        -1
                        . That's right, young cabbage soup wants to twirl ass at discos.


                        It's normal, dance and sing when young, otherwise it will be like
                        in the story of I. A. Bunin "The gentleman from San Francisco".

                        The conversation that burns should be burned with a hot iron.


                        What is a perversion in general? By what criteria will you evaluate it? And even more so as if the state should not get into bed.
                      13. Stypor23
                        Stypor23 18 October 2014 12: 08
                        +1
                        Quote: Silumin
                        This is normal, dance and sing when you are young, otherwise it will be like in the story of I. A. Bunin "The gentleman from San Francisco".

                        Okay, but fun time and hour
                        Quote: Silumin
                        What is a perversion in general? By what criteria will you evaluate it? And even more so as if the state should not get into bed.

                        Stop making fun of me. For me, when it comes to pseudo-dora and other one-and-one, idiotic boobs, they bring God into the world and throw their presents. What they want to fuck is like heterosexuals like me, that is, openly and without hiding their mental deviations. I love women and it’s in the order of things, but a man who is a legitimate man is sorry duristika.
                      14. avia1991
                        avia1991 18 October 2014 01: 42
                        +4
                        Quote: Silumin
                        if you want to developed socialism, suitcase train station China, or North Korea.

                        Silumin, you are clearly here for some reason. And you have rich experience in various fields! Have you been on a business trip in China? Which department, if not secret?
                        By the way, from my own experience I know that the "technical" ones who strive to give up in geyropes are not very much of themselves as specialists. And after working for a couple of months as refuellers and car washers, they return to their "native land" .. And those who leave, from promising ones, do not break themselves - they are found and lured by emissaries of the same amers, and this is where the racial state should scratch itself, sure!
                        In general, the impression is that you are conducting a subtle propaganda campaign, "how good it is in the West - and how bad it is in Russia" .. Who are you working for, Silumin?
                      15. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 01: 45
                        +2
                        Quote: avia1991
                        Who are you working for, Silumin?
                        maybe a troll guy !!! wassat
                        or maybe the truth has been reading nonsense ...
                      16. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 18 October 2014 01: 52
                        +1
                        Quote: DRA-88
                        maybe a troll guy !!!

                        Quote: DRA-88
                        or maybe the truth has been reading nonsense ...

                        If you swap phrases, the essence will appear request
                      17. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 02: 05
                        +4
                        Quote: Ruslan67
                        If you swap phrases, the essence will appear

                        In vain you are so with a big guy ...
                        Changed 33 times ...., the brain will explode, save who can! Karauuul! SOS !!!!
                        Himmler calls his employee. - Name a two-digit number. - 45. - Why not 54? - because 45! Himmler writes the characterization "Nordic character" and calls forth the following. - Name a two-digit number. - 28. - Why not 82? - You can, of course, and 82, but 28 is better. Himmler writes the characterization "the character is close to the Nordic" and causes the following. - Name a two-digit number. - 33. - Why not ... Ah, it's you, Stirlitz.
                      18. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 18 October 2014 02: 08
                        +2
                        Quote: DRA-88
                        In vain you are so with a big guy ...

                        I'm from earlier request liberal humanism is not peculiar to me request hi
                      19. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 02: 25
                        +1
                        Quote: Ruslan67
                        I am not characteristic of early liberalistic humanism

                        colleague!!!! hi drinks
                      20. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 18 October 2014 02: 34
                        +2
                        Quote: DRA-88
                        colleague!!!!

                        drinks hi bully
                      21. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 01: 55
                        0
                        By the way, from my own experience I know that the "technical" ones who strive to give up in geyropes are not very much of themselves as specialists.


                        Who knows, who knows, but thanks to this, a lot of promising specialists have left and are leaving for the West.

                        And those who leave, from promising ones, do not break themselves - they are found and lured by emissaries of the same amers


                        How to give yourself and how to succeed, I know a couple of cases when a person from three to four interrupted, but at the same time went to study for exchange, and then completely remained to live and work in the USA or Europe.
                        And the excellent pupils sat on the priest exactly, while after the university they went to work wherever: some were on guard, some were seller.


                        In general, the impression is that you are conducting a subtle propaganda campaign, "how good it is in the West - and how bad it is in Russia" ..


                        I am conducting a propaganda campaign "Russia does not need the USSR 2.0"

                        Who are you working for, Silumin?


                        To myself. It was not enough for young men to come in red revolutionary trousers "to select and divide" in favor of their loved ones.
                      22. avia1991
                        avia1991 18 October 2014 02: 23
                        +4
                        Quote: Silumin
                        Have gay men and lesbians offended you?

                        No, they didn’t offend. With their existence, they insult me, as a normal person, with the instincts laid down by Nature, and not the crippled psyche.
                      23. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 02: 25
                        -1
                        guys, I admit) lesbians aren’t so nasty smile I mean, not that it is normal, but that it should not be disgusting for men to look at women)
                      24. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 02: 35
                        0
                        As Lukashenko said, but you understand that, more on the male side wink
                        Sorry the video is not found.
                      25. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 02: 39
                        +1
                        as for ethics and sin, I certainly remember, but to look at two beautiful ones and join them .... hmm .... it's hard for a soldier to resist)
                      26. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 02: 44
                        -2
                        To be honest, most of those who enroll in "homosexuals" in Europe are either sympathetic, or simply have had such an experience of relationships at least once in their lives, while these people lead either absolutely healthy heterosexual sex life (most often), or bi sexual.
                      27. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 02: 49
                        +3
                        I don’t even want to talk about them stop
                        s they are s-no excuses
                      28. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 03: 04
                        -1
                        Yes, there are none, so on the strength of 1 person per 10000, which can even not be taken into account.
                      29. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 18 October 2014 02: 59
                        +1
                        Quote: Silumin
                        or just had such an experience in a relationship at least once in your life,

                        Quote: Silumin
                        either bi sexual.

                        Half crazy, maybe kill or maybe not kill request Would you go to the censor before I got really angry am And do not look at epaulettes - do not bully
                      30. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 03: 15
                        -3
                        Half crazy - maybe kill or maybe not kill request Would you go to the censor until I got really angry am And don't look at shoulder straps - don’t need bully


                        Well, what's the difference who, with whom, and how sleeps, if it does not go outside the bedroom?
                      31. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 02: 33
                        -1
                        With their existence, they insult me, as a normal person, with the instincts laid down by Nature


                        PF, and if I say that animals, for example, dogs, cats, monkeys, have homosexuality, what can you say?
                      32. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 18 October 2014 02: 38
                        +3
                        [quote = Silumin] and if I say that animals, for example, dogs, cats, monkeys, have homosexuality, what can you say?
                        As a person who has been dealing with animals for almost thirty years, I can explain - For them, this is a question of dominance in a pack. If it’s easier, the losing male receives not only a stargazer but also horseradish in the ass. Zone in its purest form. request
                      33. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 02: 46
                        +1
                        Rulan! By the way I love dogs and I know a lot
                        for me dogs are the closest and most intelligent people
                      34. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 18 October 2014 02: 53
                        +1
                        Quote: Gleb
                        I love dogs and I know a lot

                        Since I was 84, I had 27 dogs of different breeds. Now there are two: Chinese Crested and a cross of a black terrier with a shark. wassat two of them were bought: a shepherd-dog is my first puppy and wife’s newf before the wedding. The rest came to our house from the street. So my colleague I understand their customs very well By the way: during this time I still had about 15-18 cats I don’t remember and about 70 kittens which we just handed out in good hands request hi
                      35. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 02: 56
                        0
                        did not understand ... just took the majority from the street?
                        well hold on! but fun and not boring
                      36. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 18 October 2014 03: 36
                        +2
                        Quote: Gleb
                        .just took the majority from the street?

                        It was different request one, at the age of three months, threw herself under the wheels of a taxi on which we drove a cat with an amputated eye (the wife of a kitten picked up when the crow tried to peck her second) This cur with inactive hind legs (birth injury) we lived with us for 13 years, I sent another puppy home with of our KTP in part, I liked everything request He lived for 17 years. A friend brought a legless brown newf in 95, a 3-year-old, lived to 2005. Something like this. There was still an elite rizensha untied from the grave in the cemetery, etc.
                      37. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 03: 45
                        0
                        Ruslan I went to sleep, if there is a desire, we can talk in PM. I really like dogs
                      38. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 18 October 2014 05: 48
                        +1
                        Quote: Gleb
                        if there is a desire, we can chat in PM

                        Easy and fun hi But in the afternoon or in the evening laughing
                      39. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 02: 50
                        0
                        As a person who has been dealing with animals for almost thirty years, I can explain - For them, this is a question of dominance in a pack. If it’s easier, the losing male receives not only a stargazer but also horseradish in the ass. Zone in its purest form.


                        Then my cat in the courtyard of one cat spoiled all the time (the other cats beat him and the females didn’t get him until he grew bigger)

                        In fact, not only, for example, pygmy chimpanzees have seen a large number of homosexual contacts between group members. Besides heterosexual sex, homosexual is common, especially between females, so-called genital-genital rubbing, although this type of sexual activity is also found in males.
                      40. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 02: 41
                        +2
                        science and deviations in development do not need to be identified with pido.ra wink
                      41. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 03: 07
                        -2
                        So no one identifies. It just needs to be taken as a fact that there is, was and will be independent of our attitude to them.

                        Since this

                        deviations in development


                        Which is associated with many factors, from psychological trauma, to gene mutation.
                      42. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 03: 20
                        +1
                        and we do not refute the fact of availability
                        1 person per 10000
                        we just don’t want to let them break the law of nature and our moral principles. live full of holes, live quietly, but don’t impose it on society, even by recognition and democracy.
                      43. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 03: 23
                        -2
                        just do not want to give them break the law of nature

                        So no one breaks any laws.

                        That's when the squeaks are cut off or the breasts are grown, then yes, they break it, and so no.

                        but it’s not to impose it on society, even by recognition and democracy.


                        Yes, no one is not imposing, it’s in Russia that hysteria was fanned out of nothing.
                      44. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 03: 25
                        0
                        by the way I myself do not welcome a discussion of this even here on the site.
                2. leshiy076
                  leshiy076 18 October 2014 00: 54
                  +4
                  Shooting is a must. For corruption, pedophilia, high treason and theft of state property on an especially large scale.
              2. DRA-88
                DRA-88 17 October 2014 21: 13
                +12
                Quote: Silumin
                Yes, and the USSR is needed only for us - the elders (I summarize by age, I don’t need it either), he didn’t give up hell for youth.

                I completely disagree with you!
                Look what the Classic of All Times and Nations said!
                1. Silumin
                  Silumin 17 October 2014 21: 50
                  -5
                  I do not agree with your classic.

                  For example, with the phrase "where exploitation has been eliminated, where there is no oppression of some people by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a person does not tremble because tomorrow he may lose his job, his home is bread."

                  Since exploitation is a rather broad term, for example, exploitation of man by the state is essentially the same as exploitation of man by man. The oppression of some people by others existed all the time the USSR existed, to understand this, just look at the list of inter-republican subsidies in the USSR in terms of per capita:

                  Republic ----- Population ---- subsidies per person
                  Russia ----------- 147,4 ------- (- 209)
                  Ukraine ---------- 51,7 -------- (56)
                  Kazakhstan -------- 16,5 -------- (399)
                  Belarus ------- 10,2 -------- (201)
                  Uzbekistan ------- 19,9 -------- (128)
                  Azerbaijan ------ 7,0 --------- (64)
                  Lithuania ------------ 3,7 --------- (997)
                  Georgia ----------- 5,4 --------- (354)
                  Moldova --------- 4,3 --------- (612)
                  Latvia ----------- 2,7 --------- (485)
                  Armenia ---------- 3,3 --------- (415)
                  Kyrgyzstan --------- 4,3 --------- (246)
                  Estonia ---------- 1,6 --------- (812)
                  Tajikistan ------ 5,1 --------- (220)
                  Turkmenistan -------- 3,5 --------- (- 11)

                  As for housing, which housing is easier to lose? Which do you own, or which the state has given you? How then is the state different from the private lessor?

                  As for work, only r.a.s.p .. z.day, lazy people, unskilled workers are afraid of losing their jobs. Qualified, working professionals are always in price. And the state can deprive of work, for example, by a judicial decision prohibiting one or another type of activity.
                  1. avia1991
                    avia1991 18 October 2014 01: 06
                    +3
                    Quote: Silumin
                    I do not agree with your classic.

                    Silumin, you have already been told once that you have "plastic porridge" in your head. And you continue to prove it: you just take information and operate with it without having a clear idea of ​​what it means. request Not understanding the essence of the economic structure in the USSR, as well as the social policy that was then pursued, do not try to indiscriminately denigrate the state, which practically "gave" the world the 20th century! If it were not for the USSR, the world would already be living under America. And so they seriously started to cock only in recent years.
                    1. Silumin
                      Silumin 18 October 2014 01: 15
                      -2
                      If not for the USSR, the world would already have lived under America.


                      If not for the Bolsheviks with their USSR, the world would have lived under the Russian Empire.

                      And so they seriously started cocking only in recent years.


                      Why not cock up?

                      The late USSR turned out to be a colossus on an oil needle. Now they think so about the Russian Federation.
                      1. avia1991
                        avia1991 18 October 2014 02: 00
                        +3
                        Quote: Silumin
                        If not for the Bolsheviks with their USSR, the world would have lived under the Russian Empire.

                        Bummer! wassat Do not guess!
                        I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the results of the First World War in more detail. Which, by the way, was not the Bolsheviks unleashed! And from which the Russian Empire, by any means, was to come out bloodless and impoverished.
                      2. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 02: 21
                        0
                        I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the results of the First World War in more detail. Which, by the way, was not the Bolsheviks unleashed!


                        It was not for them to stop it and sign the humiliating "Brest Peace"

                        And from which the Russian Empire, by any means, was to come out bloodless and impoverished.


                        Well, yes, only industry has become full-fledged, successes in the offensive have begun, while the British and the French have the meat grinder, and the Kaiser army is breathing in the wind, squeezing a little and all is a victory. But here the Bolsheviks came and spoiled everything.
                      3. avia1991
                        avia1991 18 October 2014 04: 02
                        +3
                        Quote: Silumin
                        Well, yes, we only have industry in full growth,

                        You obviously do not have real information in this matter. And that Russia, as conceived by the Entente, was the main source of "cannon fodder", have you not heard either? ..
                        However, I mean completely different: during the First World War, American capital made fabulous profits! Plus, Germany, France, and England fell into debt bondage to the amers .. ALL coalition members suffered losses (not only human) - except for the USA. The Americans were extremely dissatisfied with the pace of development of the industrial potential of the Russian Empire. As a result of the war and the subsequent revolution - and then the Civil War! - Russia weakened, and staff members calmed down, forgetting about the competitor .. Their main mistake was that they despised our ancestors too much being sure that "now the hicks are not capable of anything." They did not consider the seriousness of the intentions of the Bolsheviks! And as a result, the USSR was born, as a powerful counterweight to the States, withstood the Second World War, and for 70 years forced amers to be in good shape - and at the same time keep themselves within the framework!
                        This is how it is.
                      4. papik09
                        papik09 18 October 2014 06: 02
                        +2
                        Quote: Silumin
                        The late USSR turned out to be a colossus on an oil needle. Now they think so about the Russian Federation.

                        Young man. Do not rub the bullshit about the oil needle. Check (at least for general development) with the number of proven oil and gas reserves in Russia. Only then pop your beer. fool
                  2. ammunition
                    ammunition 18 October 2014 06: 08
                    +1
                    Quote: Silumin
                    Republic ----- Population ---- subsidies per person
                    Russia ----------- 147,4 ------- (- 209)
                    Ukraine ---------- 51,7 -------- (56)
                    Kazakhstan -------- 16,5 -------- (399)
                    Belarus ------- 10,2 -------- (201)
                    Uzbekistan ------- 19,9 -------- (128)
                    Azerbaijan ------ 7,0 --------- (64)
                    Lithuania ------------ 3,7 --------- (997)
                    Georgia ----------- 5,4 --------- (354)
                    Moldova --------- 4,3 --------- (612)
                    Latvia ----------- 2,7 --------- (485)
                    Armenia ---------- 3,3 --------- (415)
                    Kyrgyzstan --------- 4,3 --------- (246)
                    Estonia ---------- 1,6 --------- (812)
                    Tajikistan ------ 5,1 --------- (220)
                    Turkmenistan -------- 3,5 --------- (- 11)



                    This table is nonsense and nonsense. Send Greenberg (the author) away.
                    ---------------
                    If anyone really wants to know .. type - Who fed whom?
                    Take the generated national income by republic.
                    After that - take the average salaries in the republics.
                    And count !!!!
                    You will be very surprised.
                    For example, such a fact - Estonia produced 3000 rubles on the nose. Consumed - 1800.
                    On the other hand. Turkmenistan produced 850 rub on the nose.
                    Consumed - 1100.
                    ---- well, etc.
            2. Alex_Popovson
              Alex_Popovson 17 October 2014 22: 51
              +2
              And still, I agree with Putin, whoever does not regret - there is no heart, and who wants to return - there is no reason.
              1. Silumin
                Silumin 17 October 2014 22: 53
                +1
                I agree with you and with Putin.
              2. DRA-88
                DRA-88 17 October 2014 22: 57
                +5
                Quote: Alex_Popovson
                And still, I agree with Putin, whoever does not regret - there is no heart, and who wants to return - there is no reason.

                You tore the "helmsman" for quotes! laughing
                But for me, Pushkin is more authoritative. Here's a message from centuries ago:
                Ride, peaceful people!
                You will not be awakened by the call.
                Why herds of gifts of freedom?
                They should be cut or cut.
                1. Silumin
                  Silumin 17 October 2014 22: 59
                  0
                  Why herds of gifts of freedom?
                  They should be cut or cut.


                  I wrote directly about the USSR why freedom is needed when the state cuts you, and for this you expect handouts from it.
                  1. DRA-88
                    DRA-88 18 October 2014 00: 04
                    0
                    Quote: Silumin
                    I wrote directly about the USSR why freedom is needed when the state cuts you, and for this you expect handouts from it.

                    Absolutely baseless statement!
                    Tell me a fairer state than the USSR.!
                    1. Silumin
                      Silumin 18 October 2014 00: 21
                      -1
                      Tell me a fairer state than the USSR.!


                      USA, France, UK, Japan, Singapore, Switzerland, Denmark, Norway.

                      USA - How much and how much work you get so much, your taxes go only to the defense and the police, you provide yourself with the rest, and in fact the unemployment benefit will depend on how you worked.

                      Japan - how much and how much you work and get, it is not profitable to hire gaijins, it is beneficial to improve the conditions for your Japanese nation.

                      Switzerland, Denmark, Norway - European-style socialism, how much and how much you work, how much you get, plus a bunch of social guarantees but big taxes that vary from income (the higher the income, the higher the tax).

                      At the same time, you can safely engage in any type of economic activity (not prohibited in this country) and have real estate.

                      PS

                      Maybe you just gnaw the insult that someone earns more than you?
                      1. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 01: 21
                        +3
                        Quote: Silumin
                        USA, France, UK, Japan, Singapore, Switzerland, Denmark, Norway.

                        The listed countries, being essentially bourgeois, built a kind of "socialism" for the people and concluded an agreement We (the bourgeoisie) give you a Soviet package of social benefits + benefits to parasites (due to the robbery of natural and human resources of third countries), and you (the people) do not you climb into our dark affairs (to unleash wars and robbery of the same third countries, which, unfortunately, now include the Russian Federation and OkrAina). That's all their well-being !!!

                        Quote: Silumin
                        Maybe you just gnaw the insult that someone earns more than you?

                        Leave your doubts! Envy is sin! And I am "gnawed" by sorrow over the loss of the Great Country and over the unfortunate, oppressed People!
                      2. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 01: 26
                        0
                        The listed countries, being essentially bourgeois, built a kind of "socialism" for the people and concluded an agreement We (the bourgeoisie) give you a Soviet package of social benefits + benefits to parasites (due to the robbery of natural and human resources of third countries)


                        And so it should all develop gradually, and not jerkily and through the blood.
                        And at the expense of the resources of third countries, are we selling them to them? Goods - money, or goods-goods - is it your robbery?

                        I am "gnawed" by sorrow over the loss of the Great Country


                        It’s so gnawing that you are ready to fill the country with blood if only sorrow will let you go?

                        and the unfortunate, oppressed People!


                        And so you want to oppress the people with the help of the state machine?
                      3. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 01: 30
                        0
                        Quote: Silumin
                        And so you want to oppress the people with the help of the state machine?

                        Are you ANARCHIST ????
                      4. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 01: 40
                        -1
                        Are you ANARCHIST ????


                        No, but what happened in the USSR cannot be called otherwise.
                      5. Userpic
                        Userpic 18 October 2014 01: 26
                        +2
                        Quote: Silumin
                        USA - How much and how much work you get so much, your taxes go only to the defense and the police, you provide yourself with the rest, and in fact the unemployment benefit will depend on how you worked.

                        Japan - how much and how much you work and get, it is not profitable to hire gaijins, it is beneficial to improve the conditions for your Japanese nation.

                        Switzerland, Denmark, Norway - European-style socialism, how much and how much you work, how much you get, plus a bunch of social guarantees but big taxes that vary from income (the higher the income, the higher the tax).

                        At the same time, you can safely engage in any type of economic activity (not prohibited in this country) and have real estate.
                      6. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 01: 34
                        +1
                        All is fair. I am the owner, I provide equipment, I pay taxes, keep records, settle bureaucratic delays, monitor the market, I am the brain of my production. I pay taxes on profits in the end, which go to the army, police, roads.
                        In any case, if the employee does not like, let him look for where he is paid higher, for example, from a competitor. And I will either have to raise my salary or lose a specialist. So everything is fair.

                        Or do you think being the owner of the enterprise means robbing your employees, and yourself while skating in butter like butter?
                      7. Userpic
                        Userpic 18 October 2014 04: 29
                        -1
                        Quote: Silumin
                        All is fair
                        Finally! Confessed! laughing

                        The right of the strong, the right of the first night, the right to the appropriation of profit and the alienation of the fruits of labor are one essence, and this is honest for you laughing
                        My paw, why are you riveting to the Union then? It was just "the right of the first night" laughing

                        I am the owner, I provide equipment, I pay taxes, keep records, settle bureaucratic delays, monitor the market, I am the brain of my production
                        And you should receive a corresponding reward for your work (where the property comes from, by the way?)

                        Income taxes pay in the end
                        Where is the profit from you - all by yourself? smile

                        In any case, if the employee does not like, let him look for where he is paid higher
                        And why? Let’s do the opposite: if something doesn’t suit you, close the shop and become a hireling.

                        for example, a competitor. And I have to either raise my salary or lose a specialist
                        Or to get powerless Gaster - the power is, in the system you describe, those who have property. )))

                        Or do you think being the owner of the enterprise means robbing your employees, and yourself while skating in butter like butter?
                        Are you really not getting it?

                        1 where do you get the company and loot on it?
                        2 You, being in splendid isolation and investing only your work, will you create and earn a lot at this enterprise?
                        3 When is it taken away from you that exactly you created - is it good or bad?
                      8. papik09
                        papik09 18 October 2014 06: 14
                        0
                        The Rothschilds, Rockefellers and Morgan have EARNED their billions over the centuries. And they did not start with owning an enterprise, but as a cleaner, shoe shiner, garbage man. And you? Early ripening? Where does the money come from for a company with equipment? Granny's legacy? Or stole? Be honest, and then rant about the "owner" of equipment, taxes and so on. angry
                      9. Alex_Popovson
                        Alex_Popovson 18 October 2014 10: 51
                        +1
                        Uncle, are you easier on the charges, huh? Now absolutely anyone can take out a loan, rent a hangar and call it production.
                  2. avia1991
                    avia1991 18 October 2014 01: 13
                    +2
                    Quote: Silumin
                    I wrote about the USSR

                    Silumin, how many years have you lived in the USSR?
                    If we compare -
                    Quote: DRA-88
                    Why herds of gifts of freedom?
                    They should be cut or cut.
                    - this is a purely modern, more precisely, "oligarchic-Western" approach, this is how the people are perceived by the top of the "democratic" states of the modern world! And Russia is no exception.
                    1. Silumin
                      Silumin 18 October 2014 01: 20
                      -2
                      - this is a purely modern, more precisely, "oligarchic-Western" approach, this is how the people are perceived by the top of the "democratic" states of the modern world!


                      And in the USSR, the top perceived their own peoples.
                      1. avia1991
                        avia1991 18 October 2014 01: 56
                        +1
                        Quote: Silumin
                        in the USSR, the top perceived their own peoples

                        Any state needs regular rejuvenation. In the 80s, the USSR had a chance to rejuvenate when Yu.V. Andropov became the General Secretary. But he ran out of time. And Gorbachev, ironically nominated as "heir" by Andropov himself, was unable to grasp the scale and complexity of the necessary changes. Unfortunately, there was no other leader at that time.
                        You are here talking about "your enterprise", where you work as a director and part-time owner. I've always wondered: what kind of money did the owners of the factories buy these factories for? Really on "back-earned work"?
                        The question may not be personally for you - small business, most often, is being built like this. But the same small-medium-sized business is just as successfully working in China, so unloved by you! Andropov, in fact, gravitated to this model.
                      2. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 02: 10
                        -1
                        You are here talking about "your enterprise", where you work as a director and part-time owner.


                        I did not say that I have an enterprise, I brought you the position of a bourgeois capitalist.

                        And Gorbachev, ironically nominated as "heir" by Andropov himself, was unable to grasp the scale and complexity of the necessary changes. Unfortunately, there was no other leader at that time.


                        And the price of oil fell just out of place.

                        The question may not be personally for you - small business, most often, is being built like this. But the same small-medium-sized business is just as successfully working in China, so unloved by you! Andropov, in fact, gravitated to this model.


                        Well, in addition to small and medium-sized businesses, there should be non-state large business.
                      3. avia1991
                        avia1991 18 October 2014 02: 51
                        +2
                        Quote: Silumin
                        there should be non-state big business.

                        OF WHAT?! What can non-state large business come from? Geniuses like Bill Gates are not yet visible. Who in Russia has honestly earned funds of such a volume to promote big business ?! Only drug lords .. In your unloved China there are billionaires if you are not aware, and there is a private big business. But these are, as a rule, jointly created structures with a significant share of foreign investment, which means there is a great chance that the money is earned more or less honestly (by the Chinese, I mean).
                        In our country, all big business is built "on blood" - both figuratively and literally. That's why Vladlen offers - and quite rightly! - to eradicate the entire oligarchic stratum, and let the small and medium remain, after a large-scale purge of yesterday's "aces", the "kids" who remain afloat are unlikely to have a serious desire to steal from the state ..
                      4. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 03: 13
                        -1
                        Geniuses like Bill Gates are not yet visible.


                        But they can be, an example Pavel Durov created the largest social network in RuNet VKontakte, but he was squeezed out of there.

                        Moreover, the IT Region is developing most intensively, and there are many IT specialists in Russia, but at the same time, Russian lawmakers are putting the IT areas of the wheel in the wheel, with their bills relating to the Internet.

                        Therefore Vladlen offers - and rightly so! - eradicate the entire oligarchic layer,


                        I don’t know, I only saw too radical left views in him.
                      5. avia1991
                        avia1991 18 October 2014 03: 36
                        +1
                        Pavel Durov is an ambiguous personality. Nobody underestimates his abilities in Internet technologies - but for a businessman just being a specialist in his issue is not enough. You need to be able to work in a team, to lead that team and to lead. Durov, in my amateur opinion, is a loner. Alisher Usmanov, as far as I know, "sorted out" the offenders of "VKontakte" - but Durov did not want to return.
                        And as for the "lawmakers putting a spoke in the wheel" - I would have crushed some more! What is my appeal to the VKontakte administration regarding the posting on the network of many groups of pravosek people who openly insult Russia and our historical memory: the administration of the Russian (!) Internet network reported that “they are out of politics, and the existence of these groups is personal business of their owners "! Now, if I write to the FSB, and they send them an order, then they will delete a specific group .. There were more than 730 groups at that time!
                        So it's better to have a DRA-88 with "radical left views" than a genius "right-wing"!
                  3. papik09
                    papik09 18 October 2014 06: 05
                    +1
                    Quote: Silumin
                    Why herds of gifts of freedom?
                    They should be cut or cut.


                    I wrote directly about the USSR why freedom is needed when the state cuts you, and for this you expect handouts from it.

                    Judging by your posts, under the USSR you did not have the honor of living ...
                2. Hleb
                  Hleb 17 October 2014 23: 34
                  +3
                  og)) is not so simple at Pushkin
                  ... I recently wrote an imitation of a fable moderate democrat jesus christ, - wrote Pushkin A.I. Turgenev

                  he was answered by this poem:

                  I used to preach liberties
                  The kings and the people called for judgment,
                  But only the king’s cabbage soup tasted,
                  And the court slime became.


                  and he himself explained later:

                  No, I'm not a flatterer when the King
                  Free praise:
                  I boldly express my feelings
                  I speak the language of the heart.

                  I just loved him:
                  He cheerfully, honestly rules us
                  ;
                  Russia suddenly he revived
                  War, hopes, works.

                  Oh no, even though youth is boiling in him,
                  But the sovereign spirit in him is not cruel:
                  The one who is clearly punished
                  He secretly does mercy
                  .

                  My life flowed in exile
                  I dragged with lovely separation,
                  But he is my royal hand
                  Expanded - and with you again I
                  .

                  He honored inspiration in me,
                  He freed my thought,
                  And I, in cordial tenderness,
                  I won’t sing praise
                  ?

                  Am I a smoothie? No brethren, flatter crafty:
                  He will call upon the King
                  He is from his sovereign rights
                  Only mercy will limit.

                  He will say: “Despise the people,
                  Mufflers of nature a gentle voice! ”,
                  He will say: “Enlightenment is the fruit -
                  Debauchery and a rebellious spirit! ”

                  Trouble country where the slave and the flatterer
                  Some are close to the throne
                  A heavenly chosen singer
                  Silent, eyes downcast.

                3. Hleb
                  Hleb 17 October 2014 23: 50
                  +4
                  Since then, Pushkin and Nikolai the First were on the same side of the barricade.

                  Sovereign Emperor Nikolai Pavlovich and Russian genius Alexander Sergeyevich Pushkin became comrades in the struggle, the meaning of which was the conduct of the Russian counter-revolution, a counter-revolution directed against alienism and Westernism, introduced to Russia at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. And the secular mob hated both the Tsar and the poet for about the same thing.
                  1. DRA-88
                    DRA-88 18 October 2014 00: 08
                    +1
                    Quote: Gleb
                    Hleb

                    I do not agree, but I respect your position with respect! therefore you +++++
                    1. Hleb
                      Hleb 18 October 2014 00: 29
                      +2
                      for me Pushkin is one of the few to whom it is not a shame to kneel, but this is really his. he did not follow the path of the "Makarevichs", but left us a great legacy — not liberal, revolutionary, but truly Russian and popular — unsurpassed by anyone.
                      by the way, Czechs used to use similar quotes from Pushkin or Lermontov, today dill is twisted, twisted ... but they won’t succeed.
                  2. Userpic
                    Userpic 18 October 2014 01: 29
                    +1
                    Quote: Gleb
                    [i] Since then, Pushkin and Nikolai the First were

                    I used to preach liberties
                    The kings and the people called for judgment,
                    But only the king’s cabbage soup tasted,
                    And the court slime became.



                4. studentmati
                  studentmati 18 October 2014 00: 20
                  +1
                  Quote: DRA-88
                  Why herds of gifts of freedom?
                  They should be cut or cut.


                  I wonder in what formation do Russians today feel?
                  1. DRA-88
                    DRA-88 18 October 2014 00: 50
                    +4
                    Quote: studentmati
                    I wonder in what formation do Russians today feel?

                    zombie creature formation!
                    Everything and Everything is now turned upside down.
                    Total substitution of concepts! Remember quite recently a certain "lady" apologized to psheks for Katyn! what can you call it?
                    another thesis: well, what if we threw a colossal amount into the Olympic Games and "mastered" half, but we won the Olympic Games in the subtropics !!!
                    Is this not nonsense?
                    Or did he pick it up?
                    At the eid and otov festival, I would be a member of the jury laughing
                    1. studentmati
                      studentmati 18 October 2014 00: 59
                      +1
                      Quote: DRA-88
                      zombie creature formation!


                      I agree, there are a majority of these and this is the majority from laziness of the mind! I consider the polemic on this subject endless. The hour is late and the mind is already drunk, so I am speaking the theses ... Sorry, who will understand!
                      1. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 01: 08
                        0
                        Quote: studentmati
                        The hour is late and the mind is already drunk, so the verb theses ...

                        And I only had the "chakras" opened! laughing
                        Sasha, look more about the Civil War.
                      2. studentmati
                        studentmati 18 October 2014 01: 17
                        0
                        Quote: DRA-88
                        Sasha, look more about the Civil War.

                        Throw it!
                      3. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 01: 24
                        0
                        Quote: studentmati
                        Throw it!

                        Sanya! a little lower discussion lol !!!
                      4. studentmati
                        studentmati 18 October 2014 01: 26
                        +1
                        Quote: DRA-88
                        Quote: studentmati
                        Throw it!

                        Sanya! a little lower discussion lol !!!


                        I understood!
                    2. Userpic
                      Userpic 18 October 2014 01: 32
                      +1
                      Quote: DRA-88
                      quite recently, a certain "lady" apologized to psheks for Katyn
                    3. Hleb
                      Hleb 18 October 2014 01: 41
                      0
                      I can’t fall asleep today ((
                      read
                      another thesis: well, what if we threw a colossal amount into the Olympic Games and "mastered" half, but we won the Olympic Games in the subtropics !!! Isn't this nonsense?
                      в subtropics it is not by chance always mentioned?
                      1. Stypor23
                        Stypor23 18 October 2014 01: 52
                        +1
                        Quote: Gleb
                        I can’t fall asleep today ((

                        Nothing to sleep. Anecdote.
                        - Look, a Jew is fishing. Let's ask how it bites. If he says, “Good,” we say, “Jews are always lucky,” and if he says, “Bad,” we say, “So you, well ... I need you.”
                        Fit:
                        - How does it bite?
                        - And you go to X, game and brief!
                        - Look, among them, too, normal people come across!
                      2. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 02: 22
                        0
                        keep jokes. like you love sports and understand what undercover reality means))
                      3. Stypor23
                        Stypor23 18 October 2014 02: 51
                        0
                        Quote: Gleb
                        keep funny

                        Moderator Vladivostok turns out to be a hockey player laughing bully lol.
                      4. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 02: 58
                        0
                        Moderator Vladivostok
                        who are you talking about?
                      5. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 18 October 2014 03: 09
                        +1
                        Quote: Gleb
                        who are you talking about?

                        Yes, probably about Romanov request He does not give rest to any desman wassat
                      6. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 03: 15
                        0
                        I know that he is from the East, but I don’t know where exactly. Well, if there are questions, let's ask him if he’s not right. What’s it? I think he’ll ask him manly, and I’m sure he will answer
                      7. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 18 October 2014 03: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: Gleb
                        I think it will be manly to ask him, and I'm sure he will answer

                        While he sleeps I for him wassat And when he wakes up, he begins to clean up what I wrote and those who wrote bully
                      8. Stypor23
                        Stypor23 18 October 2014 11: 49
                        0
                        Quote: Ruslan67
                        Quote: Gleb
                        who are you talking about?

                        Yes, probably about Romanov request He does not give rest to any desman wassat

                        Dad, go ahead, see a muskrat in the mirror wink
                      9. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 01: 56
                        +1
                        Quote: Gleb
                        in subtropics it is not by chance always mentioned?
                        Winter games in the subtropics of Sochi ..... and the World Cup in ice hockey in the Maldives laughing
                      10. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 02: 00
                        +1
                        duck and what is the problem?
                        let's say the World Cup in hockey in the Maldives is not a problem at all if you want and opportunities - to build artificial ice and arenas is not a problem if necessary
                      11. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 03: 00
                        +2
                        Quote: Gleb
                        let's say the World Cup in hockey in the Maldives is not a problem at all if you want and opportunities - to build artificial ice and arenas is not a problem if necessary

                        The residents of the Maldives will have one question on h.r.e. on us the World Cup hockey? !!! laughing
                      12. Hleb
                        Hleb 18 October 2014 03: 07
                        +3
                        I agree, only in Russia and in Sochi this question simply cannot arise. After all, the liberals raise the tropics of Russia. Although they are unaware that the ski slopes even in summer in Sochi are at a level where the temperature is from 0 to -10-15
                        they don’t know that Canada (just remembered the first mention of our latitude as well) used artificial snow at OI.
                        I live in Siberia and see what artificial ice is, I see how snow cannons work in competitions in Khanty-Mansiysk for example in winter. It’s worth noting that guns are not of our production and they work in the regions of the far north. It’s just technologically, taking into account modern technologies and achievements in sport is necessary
                      13. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 01: 57
                        -1
                        in subtropics it is not by chance always mentioned?


                        Probably it is designed for uneducated people who are not familiar with geography, it can cause such associations: subtropics-tropics-heat, and supposedly this should lead us to the idea that somehow it is not cool to hold the Olympic games in the heat. In short, this is such propaganda.
                5. Alex_Popovson
                  Alex_Popovson 18 October 2014 12: 11
                  +1
                  Do you doubt that I and you are just a nut, whose aspirations and needs are absolutely indifferent to those in power? Do not blame, USSR, USSR 100500, Empire, Caliphate, do not care.
                  Now it's not so bad, there is a tendency even for some improvement, despite my whining. And then some hotheads start "Levorution", walk around in leather jackets and with red carnations and will break into houses, and then also lead collectivization? Again, at best, the 90s, adjusted for modern realities. Need to? I think no.
                  In the end, she wants to build communism-socialism - South America, Southeast Asia at your service. The Pol Pot case in Cambodia is still alive. IN! Well done! Go to Finland - the descendants of the White Finns who killed the Communist Party will undoubtedly be glad to see you.
                  1. DRA-88
                    DRA-88 18 October 2014 12: 16
                    +1
                    Quote: Alex_Popovson
                    Now it’s not so bad, there has been a tendency even for some improvement, despite my nagging.

                    Think about what will remain for your children and grandchildren after the current government!
                    1. Alex_Popovson
                      Alex_Popovson 18 October 2014 15: 10
                      +1
                      what will remain for your children and grandchildren after the current government

                      You might think that I will get something if the power changes, there is a system, something else. No, I entered the institute with my brains, I earn money for myself with my brains and hands and share it with my old men. And I will never count on either the state or the revolution. And I will explain to my children that we are on our own, and the state is such a thing that you need to pay taxes so as not to pay attention to yourself once again.
                      True, I want you to know that I am not only against the Red Revolution, but against all of these Bolotnye as well. Fuck-fuck, Russia had to go through too many shocks in one century to finish it now.
                      1. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 17: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Alex_Popovson
                        True, I want you to know that I am not only against the Red Revolution, but against all of these Bolotnye as well. Fuck-fuck, Russia had to go through too many shocks in one century to finish it now.

                        Capitalism would not be capitalism if, on the one hand, it did not condemn the masses to a state of crowding, oppression, intimidation, dispersion (village!), Darkness; - if he (capitalism), on the other hand, did not give the bourgeoisie into the hands of the gigantic apparatus of lies and deceit, mass inflating of workers and peasants, dulling them, etc.

                        Therefore, only the proletariat can lead the working people out of capitalism to communism!
                        IN AND. Lenin.
            3. O_RUS
              O_RUS 17 October 2014 23: 28
              +1
              Quote: DRA-88
              The liquidation of the bourgeoisie as a class (leaving only the small shopkeepers) is the recipe for you ...


              In your own words, can you tell who the fist is?
              1. DRA-88
                DRA-88 17 October 2014 23: 57
                +2
                Quote: O_RUS
                In your own words, can you tell who the fist is?

                Yes, you drop this lecture tone.
                You are not a professor taking an exam, and I am not an applicant.
                What does the "fist" have to do with it?
                I only say that the causes of all our troubles and the Ukrainian civil war are the bourgeois-oligarchic system in both republics!
                Destroying this system, the contradictions will disappear by themselves !!!
                1. Silumin
                  Silumin 18 October 2014 00: 22
                  +1
                  bourgeois oligarchic system


                  Maybe just an oligarchic?
              2. avia1991
                avia1991 18 October 2014 01: 18
                -1
                Quote: O_RUS
                Who is the fist?

                Well, come on, tell me? what
                And then I forgot it - is he the oligarch? ..
              3. Userpic
                Userpic 18 October 2014 01: 43
                -1
                Quote: O_RUS
                Who is the fist?
                1. Stypor23
                  Stypor23 18 October 2014 01: 58
                  +1
                  Judging by the orientation, this is a rogue of Jewish origin. laughing laughing laughing
          2. zeleznijdorojnik
            zeleznijdorojnik 17 October 2014 23: 32
            0
            I’m not very sure that while you recreate the USSR, the sea of ​​people will not perish - from war, hunger and infections. Or have you tried on commissar clothes for yourself and got Mauser from under the floor?
            It's worth it
            1. Silumin
              Silumin 17 October 2014 23: 37
              -2
              It is not worth it. When you were teaching history, you skipped chapters such as:
              1. Civil war
              2. The intervention.

              But Ukraine has not taught you anything, I chew for you personally:
              When a state is troubled, another state tries to grab something from it, most often territories or resources, or take it under its control.
              We look at Ukraine and Crimea as an example.
              1. DRA-88
                DRA-88 18 October 2014 00: 06
                +3
                Quote: Silumin
                It is not worth it. When you were teaching history, you skipped chapters such as:
                1. Civil war
                2. The intervention.

                Well, you explained everything to yourself
                The interventionists just ignited the Civil War!
                1. Silumin
                  Silumin 18 October 2014 00: 24
                  -1
                  The interventionists just ignited the Civil War!


                  Hand face....


                  Do not confuse cause with effect.

                  Because of the civil war, intervention took place, and not vice versa.
                  1. DRA-88
                    DRA-88 18 October 2014 00: 40
                    0
                    Quote: Silumin
                    Do not confuse cause with effect.

                    I try never to put forward theses that I did not consider and have not verified.
                    In my humble understanding, it was precisely the Entente and intervention that served as the beginning of the Civil War !!!
                    And Even if We sit on a branch until the morning, we still will not come to the denominator .... hi
                    1. Silumin
                      Silumin 18 October 2014 00: 48
                      0
                      And for my part, it can be seen that the civil war weakened the empire and the Entente decided to intervene.

                      Good luck to you hi
                      1. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 01: 04
                        +3
                        Quote: Silumin
                        And for my part, it can be seen that the civil war weakened the empire and the Entente decided to intervene.

                        Focal and a few armed actions against the state of the dictatorship of the proletariat were immediately supported by the Entente countries at first in the form of covert intervention. Already in November 1917, in Iasi, at a meeting of military representatives of the Entente countries and the command of the Southwestern and Romanian fronts, a plan of military operations in the South was drawn up involving the Romanian troops (in Bessarabia), the Czechoslovak Corps and the troops of the Central Council in Ukraine. On November 14 (27), the meeting of the heads of government of Great Britain, France and Italy decided to support the Transcaucasian nationalists. On December 9 (22), a conference of representatives of the Entente countries in Paris recognized the need to maintain contact with the counter-revolutionary governments of Ukraine, Cossack regions, Siberia, the Caucasus and Finland and to open loans to them. On December 10 (23), an English-French agreement was concluded on the division of the spheres of future military operations (and, therefore, the spheres of influence) in Russia: the Caucasus and Cossack regions entered the UK zone, Bessarabia, Ukraine and Crimea entered the French zone; Siberia and the Far East were considered as the sphere of interests of the USA and Japan.
                      2. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 01: 22
                        -4
                        Read less Soviet history.
                      3. DRA-88
                        DRA-88 18 October 2014 01: 25
                        +3
                        Quote: Silumin
                        Read less Soviet history.

                        Great move !!! laughing
                        almost pesttnya !!! laughing
                      4. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 01: 36
                        -3
                        Great move !!! laughing


                        Well, yes, one-sided supply of material mixed with slogans.
                      5. avia1991
                        avia1991 18 October 2014 03: 08
                        +2
                        Quote: Silumin
                        Great move !!! laughing


                        Well, yes, one-sided supply of material mixed with slogans.

                        Selection does not work .. Well, yes, the story presented by Western storytellers is certainly a vivid example of objectivity! Especially in light of the policy of "double standards."
              2. avia1991
                avia1991 18 October 2014 02: 08
                0
                Quote: Silumin
                We look at Ukraine and Crimea as an example.

                Already wondered why you appeared here. But this phrase once again confirms the suspicion! You, sir, are not from our world. Accordingly, your reasoning should simply be ignored hi
                1. Silumin
                  Silumin 18 October 2014 02: 25
                  -1
                  You, sir, are not from our world.


                  From yours, from yours. It’s just a very obvious example of intervention when there is trouble in the country.

                  I’m wondering why our government took advantage of only a small amount, when it was possible to seize Novorossia as well, the more land communications with Crimea are much more beneficial than the ferry.
                  1. avia1991
                    avia1991 18 October 2014 02: 39
                    +1
                    Quote: Silumin
                    this is a very clear example of intervention

                    Intervention - power intervention in the internal showdown of another state. But Russia did not intervene anywhere: our troops were present there, Crimean residents voted unanimously - and Russia could only defend their decision, in accordance with international law. Yes, and this territory - in the know, right? - in life was Russian! And fighting was the essence of the civil war in the outskirts at that time.
                    But with the intervention in the Donbass intervention would be pure! What Putin, in fact, did not go to .. unfortunately. For it was possible to avoid a lot of blood, and Natsik much more accommodating to do.
                    Well, I'm not Putin, he knows better from there.
                    1. Silumin
                      Silumin 18 October 2014 02: 53
                      0
                      But Russia did not intervene anywhere: our troops were present there, Crimean residents voted unanimously - and Russia could only defend their decision, in accordance with international law. Yes, and this territory - in the know, right? - in life was Russian

                      Wow, I agree with these.


                      And fighting was the essence of the civil war in the outskirts at that time.


                      But there was confusion.

                      What Putin, in fact, did not go to .. unfortunately. For it was possible to avoid a lot of blood, and Natsik much more accommodating to do.


                      It’s a pity that he didn’t go, especially since it was possible to check weapons and massacres, but the rating would have gone to the ceiling, you could have thrown off the oligarchs too, relying on the people, missed so many opportunities. And after the Crimea, whatever one may say, we are considered aggressors. And sanctions were imposed anyway.
          3. SkiF_RnD
            SkiF_RnD 18 October 2014 22: 16
            0
            Throw and cons to me! I also think that you should not recreate the USSR. Rostovite, 22 years old.
        2. vladmetro
          vladmetro 18 October 2014 07: 59
          +1
          Quote: DRA-88
          [b] recreate the USSR! [b]

          No, no, no, we don’t need the old union, and we won’t be able to recreate it, too much the external conditions have changed. I am for the Russian Empire, in which, along with new ones, the old, Soviet principles of life and relationships between people would be honored.
          And the blame for the collapse of the Great Country is also on us, at least I still feel. At the time of the collapse I was already 24 of the year, but I didn’t have a stable life position, which I regret very much !!!
        3. Blondy
          Blondy 18 October 2014 09: 19
          +1
          Now Our task before future generations is to recreate the USSR! This will become the National Idea for which no one needs to be agitated anymore !!!
          The idea is from the word idealist.
          Here, purely in a blonde way: To quarrel enough of one, but, now, two have to put up.
          Well, and who will go to the USSR again (under Russia), what about the Baltic states, Tajiks, Azerbaijanis, etc.? Everyone has their own elite and everyone looks to someone with a searching look - some of Europe, some of China, some of Turkey. Moreover, in addition to declaring traditional (since the time of the political bureau) benevolent plans for a brighter future, in the short term, nothing real, in the sense of development, is visible.
      2. Korvin1000
        Korvin1000 17 October 2014 20: 16
        +2
        After all, we did not like it. And we looked and were silent.
        Do not make mistakes again
    2. Stypor23
      Stypor23 17 October 2014 18: 29
      +5
      Quote: Ruslan67
      We collapsed

      The Jews have muddied everything. You see how bad they were. So the professor is happy about the collapse of the USSR.
      1. soviet skytourist
        soviet skytourist 17 October 2014 19: 20
        +8
        some representatives took part in the roles of actors and performers, but there were many objective reasons and the main thing was the incompetence and inadequacy of managers. It happens. It’s just that everyone, to the best of his control, works for his beloved, and to the extent of his misunderstanding, he understands it better. For example, a dog bites a stick but the source of danger is whoever holds it in his hands or if he is standing against a knife, it’s not the knife that’s dangerous who owns it and it is necessary to work against it. On a majestic level, gentlemen, the gentlemen are gentlemen, will give you minuses. There will be people who support you and go alone against the others, hatred is born in the dispute but not the truth. A good example Ukraine is guilty of many managers, and indeed where are they leading the people and the power now [although the people / crowd are also good]
        1. Userpic
          Userpic 18 October 2014 02: 19
          +1
          Quote: sovetskyturist
          but there were many objective reasons and the main thing was the incompetence and inadequacy of managers

          You are wrong again: "objective reasons" can appear only due to errors (the system is flexible).
          The "mistakes" that have been made are imbit-level errors.
          Can imbeciles get into power, so that no one corrects them?

          Hence "errors" were not errors.
    3. Giant thought
      Giant thought 17 October 2014 18: 42
      +5
      A gathering of Judas in the Kremlin and their ilk created this tragedy of the collapse of the Soviet Union.
      1. soviet skytourist
        soviet skytourist 17 October 2014 19: 27
        +2
        the collapse of the USSR also had objective reasons, we must take into account mistakes and move forward creating a new, more effective and larger
      2. 1812 1945
        1812 1945 17 October 2014 19: 48
        +6
        Quote: Giant thought
        A gathering of Judas in the Kremlin and their ilk created this tragedy of the collapse of the Soviet Union.

        By the way, the author reminded all of us who Yeltsin is for Russia. One cannot only assume that this alcoholic, overwhelmed by a thirst for power, with poor intellect persuaded Bush to break up the USSR. The author himself says that by the time of the collapse, the USSR was a US satellite. This led to the fact that the USSR was destroyed. But the prerequisites for this disaster were laid even at its creation. Russia needs to be revived! - A united and indivisible Russia with a worthy Great State device, with all the indisputable advantages of socialism and the use, within reasonable limits, of market-based instruments for organizing the economy ....................... ..... PS I mean-Russia within the borders of the USSR. (At least!)
        1. Userpic
          Userpic 18 October 2014 02: 26
          0
          Quote: 1812 1945
          The author himself says that by the time of the collapse, the USSR was a US satellite

          And the author, in this matter, can voluntarily or involuntarily lie, or is it impossible in principle? )))
      3. DRA-88
        DRA-88 17 October 2014 20: 25
        +1
        Quote: Thought Giant
        A gathering of Judas in the Kremlin and their ilk created this tragedy of the collapse of the Soviet Union.

        Are you sure something has changed ????
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. Siberian 1975
      Siberian 1975 17 October 2014 19: 21
      +9
      I was 18 incomplete when I was sitting in the White House and was ready to die for our country, realizing where the crap will lead us. I repeat, I was almost 18 years old, and when the tanks fired at us, we fought and pissed ourselves off, but not one left. So no need to talk about "WE LOST" you! maybe, but not me! I forgot to add, I was a barkashev and flew in from Murmansk.
      1. soviet skytourist
        soviet skytourist 17 October 2014 19: 31
        +4
        you [narod] were sold by rotten elitists who dreamed of gold toilets, but many didn’t give a damn, too, wanted to snatch a piece
      2. Ruslan67
        Ruslan67 17 October 2014 20: 02
        +3
        Quote: Sibiryak 1975
        I was 18 incomplete when I was in the White House

        Emotionally but off topic request In 93 there was no longer the Union
        Quote: Sibiryak 1975
        I was a Barkashevian and flew from Murmansk.

        That's why they shot at you - a wild mixture of former communists of nationalist deputies, and even to hell knows who, led by debil Makashov in a stupid beret (his mother fucks Barbudos am ) and Rutskoi screaming about the bombing of the Kremlin fool
        1. Siberian 1975
          Siberian 1975 17 October 2014 20: 06
          -1
          And where have you been? In the kitchen, he told his wife about what a serious man you are?
          1. Ruslan67
            Ruslan67 17 October 2014 20: 55
            +2
            Quote: Sibiryak 1975
            Where were you?

            On duty in armor and with a cartridge in the barrel - from 3 to 4 October 93g And you will be rude, say goodbye to this site
          2. smile
            smile 17 October 2014 21: 29
            +2
            Siberian 1975
            Nda, something you, tovarisch, a smallish hero, some ... Your hysterical heroic statements - like - "and where were you in the eighteenth year", I confess, did not impress ... at all.
            You remind that comrade Khazbulatov with the stolen Rutskoi were no better than Borka? You see, as a young man, you did not know that they were faithful Yeltsinoids during the collapse of the USSR, during the events of August 91 .... and then they didn’t share the booty with the godfather ... everything and business ...
            And about belonging to a gang of frostbitten Barkashovites, I personally would be embarrassed to tell .... Well, different adventurers sharing power have tricked you, kid, with slogan slogans, what can I be proud of?

            Ruslan67
            Greetings, Ruslan !!! hi
            I support you in this matter unconditionally.
            And where is Apollo, something I do not see him?
          3. avia1991
            avia1991 18 October 2014 04: 17
            +2
            Quote: Sibiryak 1975
            Where were you?

            I have no question - but I can’t pass by ..
            Was raised on BT, and was preparing to participate in the transfer of the special forces battalion "wherever they say." And many of the members of the forum at that moment honestly fulfilled their duty in their official positions. But actually, you should have said thank you to "Alpha", whose fighters decided not to arrange "beating a baby" - as a result, you got a chance to look at that time from the height of your past years, and, perhaps, rethink those events? ..
        2. Siberian 1975
          Siberian 1975 17 October 2014 20: 08
          +1
          And you didn't get "stupid berets", but what you got. Robbery of the country, etc.
          1. enot73
            enot73 17 October 2014 20: 40
            +1
            99 percent of the blame for the collapse of the country lies with Gorbachev and his accomplice in ideology Yakovlev. The country was deliberately divided, earlier more or less united peoples remembered the old grievances, nobody really tried to solve problems in the economy, but for that all the new "preziks" of the union republics blamed everything on Russia and the communists. Not to mention the fact that the country's ideology and history were discredited at the official level. All this practically destroyed the foundation of the USSR. Unfortunately, patriotic forces within the country's leadership were also discredited by Yakovlev's propaganda and could not stop the collapse of the Union.
            1. Silumin
              Silumin 17 October 2014 20: 57
              +1
              99 percent of the blame for the collapse of the country lies with Gorbachev and his ideological accomplice Yakovlev


              99% of the blame lies with the flawed system of state and economic structure.

              earlier more or less united peoples remembered old grievances


              The peoples have never been united. The national policy of the USSR is proof of this. The fight against "Great Russian chauvinism" and the policy of "indigenousization" alone is worth throwing "Sovok" in a landfill.

              nobody really tried to solve problems in the economy


              Because it was a flaw in the system, and it could be corrected only by transferring the economy to a capitalist channel (China, for example), but alas, this would no longer correspond to ideological principles.

              but for that, all the new "preziki" of the union republics blamed everything on Russia and the communists


              The USSR brought these new preziks as the national elite of these union republics.

              Not to mention that the ideology of the country was discredited at the official level


              Ideology discredited itself in a collision with the world beyond the cordon.

              and her story.


              Of course, how else will it be if the Communists strained so many skeletons in the closets that the previous generation will be enough.
              1. enot73
                enot73 17 October 2014 21: 36
                +2
                Quote: Silumin
                99% of the blame lies with the flawed system of state and economic structure.

                Quote: Silumin
                Ideology discredited itself in a collision with the world beyond the cordon.
                With the same ideology and system, as well as having a worse situation than in the USSR, China managed to rebuild the economy.
                Quote: Silumin
                Of course, how else will it be if the Communists strained so many skeletons in the closets that the previous generation will be enough.
                And in which countries do not have their skeletons in the closet?
                Quote: Silumin
                The USSR brought these new preziks as the national elite of these union republics.
                Before Gorbachev, these "selected" preziks did not exist. and there were first secretaries appointed and dependent on the center
                The peoples have never been united. The national policy of the USSR is proof of this. The fight against "Great Russian chauvinism" and the policy of "indigenousization" alone is worth throwing "Sovok" in a landfill.
                however, from the mid-50s to the mid-80s, everything was more or less calm. In the end, to eliminate the shortcomings it was not at all necessary to run the country, and Russia and all other republics lost much more in the economy than they received.
                1. Silumin
                  Silumin 17 October 2014 22: 03
                  -2
                  Before Gorbachev, these "selected" preziks did not exist. and there were first secretaries appointed and dependent on the center


                  Which subsequently either became presidents or ceded power to other national elites.

                  however, from the mid-50s to the mid-80s, everything was more or less calm.


                  It was, but not really, but it can be attributed to the post-military reconstruction of the country.
                  Then the USSR sat in the late 60s on an oil needle, then yes 70s everything was fine. Until the crisis hit the 80s and oil prices fell.
              2. Sergei 2
                Sergei 2 17 October 2014 21: 54
                +2
                "99% of the blame lies with the flawed system of state and economic structure." It is difficult to agree with this. The system was configured and worked smoothly. Remember HOW it was broken through the knee! rough! hastily! Pulled into pockets! Millions of victims who were simply left to survive! FOR THIS IS REQUIRED TO JUDGE THE GUILTY !!!
                1. Silumin
                  Silumin 17 October 2014 22: 11
                  -2
                  The system was configured and worked clearly.


                  The fact of the matter is that without sticks and kicks the system did not work at all.

                  Remember HOW it was broken through the knee! rough! hastily!


                  Well, yes, it collapsed like a house of cards, then looters came running

                  Millions of victims who were simply left to survive!


                  Well, yes, they gave up what kind of system those who suffered were. The only thing that is a pity is that the savings were burned out, and so nothing belonged to a person in the USSR except personal belongings, everything belonged to the state, and as soon as the state collapsed, everything became a draw, come and take it.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                2. Silumin
                  Silumin 17 October 2014 23: 41
                  0
                  Millions of victims who were simply left to survive!


                  By the way, and not because of privatization, the apartment owned by the state of the USSR became yours?
                  1. Userpic
                    Userpic 18 October 2014 02: 40
                    0
                    Quote: Silumin
                    By the way, and not because of privatization, the apartment owned by the state of the USSR became yours?

                    And yet, sho, acre of additional costs, did you benefit from this? )))
                    1. Silumin
                      Silumin 18 October 2014 02: 57
                      0
                      For example, my own corner, which I can control as I want. I want to sell, I want to rent a couple of rooms, or even that, I want to give it, or leave it as an inheritance and I know that there will be nothing for me.
                      1. Userpic
                        Userpic 18 October 2014 04: 42
                        +1
                        Quote: Silumin
                        I want to sell
                        And then to the train station? )))

                        I want to rent a couple of rooms
                        From after all a joke - and in the Union they handed over.

                        and that’s all, I want to give it, or leave it as an inheritance and I know that I won’t be anything for it.
                        My friend, who prevented you from doing this in the USSR? Prescribe, write out yourself, and it's up to the end.

                        ZY
                        Quote: Userpic
                        And yet, sho, acre of additional costs, did you benefit from this? )))
                      2. Silumin
                        Silumin 18 October 2014 09: 53
                        -1
                        And then to the train station? )))


                        You can go to the cottage, or you can go to the station, what’s the matter for you?
                        If I want to the train station - my personal choice.

                        From after all a joke - and in the Union they handed over.


                        Well, yes, secretly and illegally.

                        My friend, who prevented you from doing this in the USSR? Prescribe, write out yourself, and it's up to the end.


                        This is not the same as "inherited" and "donated".

                        And yet, sho, acre of additional costs, did you benefit from this? )))


                        My own corner, not my uncles, not the state, but my own, which I can dispose of as I want.

                        I got the right to buy any housing for which there is money of any meter, and not which the state decided to provide me based on its own norms.

                        But other people's expenses are not comme il faut.
                      3. Userpic
                        Userpic 18 October 2014 15: 14
                        +1
                        Quote: Silumin
                        You can go to the cottage, or you can go to the station, what’s the matter for you?
                        The most direct - in this case, you are likely to degrade and begin to pose a threat to society in terms of crime.

                        Well, yes, secretly and illegally
                        Would you pay taxes longing? So they would draw up a submarine, although why I do not understand such difficulties.

                        This is not the same as "inheritance" and "gift"
                        In form - no, in fact - the same thing.

                        My own corner, not my uncles, not the state, but my own, which I can dispose of as I want
                        First of all, you need your own corner in this form only when the state guarantees nothing to you.
                        Secondly, this angle remains yours only as long as a stronger eye does not lay on it.
                        And thirdly, even now you cannot dispose of your angle as you wish, you can only do this within the framework of the current legislation. The fact that you were added the opportunity to buy / sell does not change the essence of the matter.

                        and not which the state decided to provide me based on its standards
                        The norms of the state, in turn, proceeded from its state, capabilities: the task was to provide housing to everyone who needed it, and nice nishtyaks like a meter in excess of a rational area were funded according to the residual principle. You are apparently one of those who do not care that there is nowhere for someone to live — you are one of those who are only concerned about his own, usually irrational, desire.

                        But other people's expenses are not comme il faut.
                        The mantra of all thieves.
      3. DRA-88
        DRA-88 17 October 2014 20: 54
        +1
        Quote: Sibiryak 1975
        I was 18 incomplete when I was in the White House and was ready to die for our country, realizing what the shitmen would lead us to.

        You RESPECT !!!
        I hope your life principles have not changed!
    6. Yura
      Yura 17 October 2014 21: 25
      +2
      Quote: Ruslan67
      We ruined Who actively participating and who inaction and indifference A la to the current Khokhlyatsky-type hut from the edge And all who at the time of the collapse were conscious were responsible for this
      I agree that we destroyed it, but I don’t feel guilty about it, one regret, like many people I know. The people do things both by action and by inaction, for example: in the seventeenth in Russia there were only two thousand professional Bolsheviks, if I may say so, and you cannot even seriously think that they could do what they did, but their slogans are "ALL POWER TO THE SOVIETS" and especially "FACTORIES FOR WORKERS, LAND FOR PEASANTS" and the people who believed them, or rather their majority, stood under the red banner, it decided everything. In XNUMX, the people, again their majority, no longer believed in the same government and therefore simply did not take to the streets, and again this decided everything. The Bolsheviks, communists, they knew everything about us, that's why in the seventeenth and ninety-first we were used in one way or another. The goals were really different, but without us, that is, the Russian people, neither then nor now would they have done anything. I know why I didn't go, but this is a separate conversation.
    7. Denis fj
      Denis fj 17 October 2014 21: 39
      +1
      As the Romanovs at one time blamed the extermination of the boyars of Russia on Ivan 4, so Yeltsin blamed all sins on Gorbi. May be. But that does not make Gorby white and fluffy.
  2. svp67
    svp67 17 October 2014 18: 24
    +10
    Who destroyed the USSR
    -We. Do not sit quietly, but show your true civil position. The USSR would remain.
    1. bugaev2005
      bugaev2005 17 October 2014 18: 47
      +9
      Similarly, we! All those who worked through their sleeves drove the marriage to factories, dragged everything that was bad from the enterprises, it was we at the research institute who came to wipe our trousers and play chess during working hours, we knitted hats for winters all the time in all bookkeeping, we wrote this bullshit in the reports on the work done and lied, lied, lied! And also we sprinkled the paths of the closed enterprise with ferrite rings so that no illiquid assets remained in the warehouse. So there’s no one to blame but themselves!
      1. Userpic
        Userpic 18 October 2014 02: 43
        +3
        Quote: svp67
        Who destroyed the USSR
        -We. Do not sit quietly, but show your true civil position. The USSR would remain.

        Quote: bugaev2005
        Similarly, we! All those who worked through their sleeves drove the marriage to factories, dragged everything that was bad from the enterprises, it was we at the research institute who came to wipe our trousers and play chess during working hours, we knitted hats for winters all the time in all bookkeeping, we wrote this bullshit in the reports on the work done and lied, lied, lied! And also we sprinkled the paths of the closed enterprise with ferrite rings so that no illiquid assets remained in the warehouse. So there’s no one to blame but themselves!

        1. Hleb
          Hleb 18 October 2014 02: 55
          +1
          It’s great that the record was saved! A voice is heard and everyone can see the face, facial expressions of this person. Because they often represent this:
          1. Userpic
            Userpic 18 October 2014 04: 44
            0
            Quote: Gleb
            often represent

            Bogeyman for idiots.
    2. Renat
      Renat 17 October 2014 18: 48
      +8
      Absolutely right. Our Great Union, the empire of good prosr @ whether we are. Although at that time I was very young and thought little about politics, my fault is also in this. And the Judas in the Kremlin and their masters overseas simply did their job. They bought us, for snickers, for tampex.
    3. sergey32
      sergey32 17 October 2014 19: 04
      +7
      I will allow myself a joke
      In a history lesson, the teacher asks Vovochka "Who took the Bastille?" Little Johnny is frightened "I didn't take it."
      The teacher called her father, told him, he scratched his turnip, "Yes, it seems, and did not bring home."
      The teacher, in shock, runs to the director, tells everything.
      Director: "Yes, their whole family is like that, if they steal something, they will never confess."
  3. an-sar
    an-sar 17 October 2014 18: 24
    0
    Who destroyed the USSR
    and betrayed all the people, JUDA GORBACHEV !!!!
    1. Siberian 1975
      Siberian 1975 17 October 2014 19: 43
      +3
      Yes you are sick of it with your Gorbachev, and where were your brains?
      1. Stypor23
        Stypor23 17 October 2014 20: 27
        +2
        Quote: Siberian 1975
        Yes you are sick of it with your Gorbachev, and where were your brains?

        Brains were clouded by Bush's legs and Helmut's breasts.
  4. Old Man Leader
    Old Man Leader 17 October 2014 18: 25
    0


    The role of Gorbachev in the collapse of the USSR
  5. pomegranate
    pomegranate 17 October 2014 18: 32
    +3
    The United States launched an information war on how to live a sweet life in democracy, but during our time we didn’t move to a new level, and we got the hell knows how many tired (traitors) are already there under such pressure from the West and other interested .....
  6. soviet skytourist
    soviet skytourist 17 October 2014 18: 32
    +4
    human stupidity and shortsightedness, of course, the one who in this situation understood more than the others used this situation. Sometimes the actors are different and the scenarios are the same
  7. dimdimich71
    dimdimich71 17 October 2014 18: 32
    +3
    But all the mongrels were really afraid !!! The USSR and I am very glad that RUSSIA is reborn
  8. sigdoc
    sigdoc 17 October 2014 18: 37
    -5
    The Communists have collapsed, and now they dump the Americans.
    1. gunya
      gunya 17 October 2014 18: 59
      0
      sigdoc SU  Today, 18:37 The communists have collapsed, and now they are blaming the Americans.

      Not communists, but "members of the CPSU."
      This is quite interestingly written by Prudnikova.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Penzyac
      Penzyac 17 October 2014 19: 29
      +3
      Quote: sigdoc
      The Communists have collapsed, and now they dump the Americans.

      Those members of the CPSU who destroyed the USSR were only called communists, in fact they were either convinced opportunists or careerist opportunists, in a word, hypocrites with a double, or even triple (for themselves, for bosses, for subordinates) "morality".
      PS: By the way, even now, how can there be a real communist, and not some kind of social democrat (non-communist), for example, a millionaire (if he is not an illegal intelligence officer abroad) I do not understand.
    4. Karabanov
      Karabanov 17 October 2014 19: 51
      +1
      Quote: sigdoc
      The Communists have collapsed, and now they dump the Americans.

      Who is this communist? EBN or what? This is a hypocrite and a careerist. He needed to hide behind an ideology in order to be in power, and having reached it without hesitation he handed over his party membership card in order to gain even more power. And such pseudo-communists and Komsomol members, and now like dirt ... (modern anology - EdRo). These chameleons quickly repaint when it suits them. But true adherents of communism and patriots, this would never have been allowed.
  9. MolGro
    MolGro 17 October 2014 18: 39
    +5
    USSR destroyed our indifference !!
    everyone thought it would cost, but it could not!
    1. Penzyac
      Penzyac 17 October 2014 19: 38
      +2
      Quote: MolGro
      USSR destroyed our indifference !!
      everyone thought it would cost, but it could not!

      Everyone thought that upstairs they knew what they were doing, we trusted them to one degree or another.
      Now no one denies the power of influence of the media. In this sense, we were (and most likely are) no better than the current "ordinary" Ukrainians.
    2. Karabanov
      Karabanov 17 October 2014 19: 52
      +1
      Do not speak for everyone ...
  10. Verden
    Verden 17 October 2014 18: 40
    +4
    If the people were united and ready to defend their truth, neither Gorbachev nor Yeltsin would be able to do anything.
    The situation is really like in today's Ukraine - a couple of percent of the radicals make the weather, while the rest are modestly silent about their opinions.
    1. Penzyac
      Penzyac 17 October 2014 19: 47
      +1
      Quote: Verden
      If the people were united and ready to defend their truth, neither Gorbachev nor Yeltsin would be able to do anything.
      The situation is really like in today's Ukraine - a couple of percent of the radicals make the weather, while the rest are modestly silent about their opinions.

      In hindsight, everyone is smart. Unfortunately, history does not tolerate the subjunctive mood and at that time the people were divorced, like suckers, that was - that was. Many are still trying very hard in terms of deceiving everyone and everything to succeed. Now the main task for our society is to not allow them to do this anymore (the public Internet to help us).
  11. 11111mail.ru
    11111mail.ru 17 October 2014 18: 44
    +4
    Whoever remembers the old is over there, and whoever forgets is both! I still hope to see these demo-ss.suk in the loop, and Tagged on the Coke.
    1. gunya
      gunya 17 October 2014 19: 04
      +1
      "11111mail.ru (7) RU  Today, 18:44
      I still hope to see these demo-ss.uk in the loop, and the Marked one on the stake. "

      Why emotions, we know perfectly well that they will still take a break.
      So take care of your nerves for more serious and necessary things.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Karabin
      Karabin 17 October 2014 20: 03
      +3
      Quote: 11111mail.ru
      I still hope to see these demo-ss.suk in the loop, and Tagged on the Coke.

      demo-ss you will continue to watch not on a bitch, but on TV screens. A very good background for those who continue to use and adjust the country to their own interests, hiding behind patriotic rhetoric. And the marked one will soon go to another world. Age, whatever one may say. I am more than sure that our "land gatherers" and "knee lifters" will certainly immortalize the memory of a worthy stake in the names of streets, libraries and educational institutions. They really do not abandon their own.
  12. gunya
    gunya 17 October 2014 18: 54
    +2
    Quote: Giant thought
    A gathering of Judas in the Kremlin and their ilk created this tragedy of the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    Right! I would like to pay everyone their due.
    1. Penzyac
      Penzyac 17 October 2014 19: 49
      0
      Quote: gunya
      Quote: Giant thought
      A gathering of Judas in the Kremlin and their ilk created this tragedy of the collapse of the Soviet Union.

      Right! I would like to pay everyone their due.

      If I was a churchgoer, I would say: "God will reward everyone."
  13. Ivan 63
    Ivan 63 17 October 2014 19: 02
    +3
    But I always and everywhere said that the marked Judas, of course, but the EBN drunkenness caused and causes me an order of magnitude more hatred and charity - I just had to watch TV reports with his participation, for example, if miners and foreigners ask him questions, the reaction is indicative: "face" skewed from fierce hatred when answering first and servile to others. In general, it was already clear to me then that not only was he drunk, but on top of that, he was not interested in anything except Power, as well as his "family" (for example, his daughter). And it will always be a shame for Russia, even after Novodevichye is released and ashes are shot at the West.
  14. Janislav
    Janislav 17 October 2014 19: 05
    +1
    Here, in Bulgaria, the people say: "Not e lud toya deto isis ban'tsata, but toz children, I am giving." Why is that? And s'ya de!
    1. Stypor23
      Stypor23 17 October 2014 19: 21
      +1
      Quote: Janislav
      Here, in Bulgaria, the people say: "Not e lud toya deto isis ban'tsata, but toz children, I am giving." Why is that? And s'ya de!

      You have Bulgaria, people are calmly looking at the desecration of Soviet monuments.
  15. Committee
    Committee 17 October 2014 19: 10
    +1
    Andropov. And its main performer is Gorbachev.
    1. fiodor
      fiodor 17 October 2014 22: 58
      +3
      Well, in my opinion, the collapse began with Khrushchev, with small steps slowly started to roll towards it, it was he who made a caste of untouchables from party workers, that is, nothing could be done with them, under Stalin a great Power was built, and there were no untouchables, they could plant any, another thing at what cost it was built is another matter. Well, and now party workers, at best, began to transfer to another post at worst to retire, and Andropov just wanted to fix it all and put all the corrupt officials (some managed to close), but he didn’t have enough time, he was sick and died, who knows as if he had had at least 10 years on the board, I think all the same, as if he hadn't done the humpback.
      1. Silumin
        Silumin 17 October 2014 23: 08
        -1
        Well, in my opinion, the collapse began with Khrushchev, with small steps slowly started to roll towards this, it was he who made an untouchable caste out of party workers,


        To the point.
        under Stalin, a great Power was built, and there were no untouchables, they could plant anyone, another thing at what cost it was built is another matter.


        Such was a flawed system that could function normally only because of a strong-willed, authoritative leader, of whom Stalin was. In itself, it did not possess stability, and therefore collapsed.
      2. vitamin ky
        vitamin ky 21 October 2014 21: 33
        +1
        but to the pond, it's not important anymore, to drain such a country, it is necessary to be able to -that now, after a fight, wave your fists and smear snot-there are more important questions and topics (he was born in the USSR - he was sorry for him to madness), right now, the country "at" about - about e, about trashing êàî so that all such articles are so set up and forget - time shchazzzzzzz is a very expensive thing and spend it on snotty-pompous-hmm-money to the wind -article no "-" no "+"
  16. Siberian
    Siberian 17 October 2014 19: 15
    +3
    Quote: Janislav
    where on the central alley under the white-blue-red boulder lies the real author of this disaster.
    ................ If it’s good to analyze all the events of 90-91, it is so ... it's just that not everyone is ready to agree with this, and of course it’s easier to blame everything on Gorbachev ... .................
  17. blizart
    blizart 17 October 2014 19: 15
    +8
    especially considering the future fate of the Slavic population in those Muslim countries
    Whoever destroyed the Union, and the terrible (I'm not afraid of this word) price, had to be paid by the Russian people. Still waiting for their researchers atrocities in relation to Russians (and Russian-speaking) in all, without exception, "fraternal" Republics! What do you know about them? Like nationalists of all stripes were splashing saliva, confident of their impunity, raising their "murlo", and it was the most harmless thing that they did. The ambiguity of the position of Russians in Central Asia and Kazakhstan, the humiliation of status in the Baltic states, isolation in Transnistria and the events in Ukraine are not the continuation of those shameful years? It is a pity that the Russian people are so gentle and easygoing, and when they become as great as before, they will pat on the withers only those who crawl back.
    P.S. To those who believe that the Union has all of us collapsed, I will answer: Do not take on much, you are only flocks, but there was a Shepherd
    1. Stypor23
      Stypor23 17 October 2014 19: 18
      +2
      Quote: blizart
      It’s a pity that only the Russian people are so gentle and quick-witted, and when it becomes as great as before, it will pat on the withers only, those who crawl back

      +++++++++++++++, absolutely true. Dear little ones. We don’t have to be any peacekeepers at all. fool stop am
  18. surovts.valery
    surovts.valery 17 October 2014 19: 31
    +1
    There is a question about the actual fact or fake of all this. Who called whom? Or, as is now customary to consider, who initiated the call of the head of state - the head of another state? And then it turns out that Bush is sitting on the phone and waiting for a call from four boobies, vying in a hurry to consult with him about the division of the Whole State! Fake!
  19. padded jacket
    padded jacket 17 October 2014 19: 34
    +2
    Here is an opinion:
    It was during the reign of Gorbachev that Soviet Jews finally got the opportunity to leave the Soviet Union. It was under him that the revival of Jewish cultural life in the country began. It was under Gorbachev that diplomatic relations with Israel were resumed.
    In 1989, 71 people left the USSR for Israeli visas; in 238, 1990; in 204, 700 people.
    http://www.jewish.ru/theme/cis/2011/03/news994294137.php
    1. soviet skytourist
      soviet skytourist 17 October 2014 19: 41
      +4
      Gorby leash is a clown mask, the so-called Jewish factor performers, and who is the puppeteer
  20. Bormental
    Bormental 17 October 2014 19: 34
    0
    Everyone is to blame, who in the 91st did not go out to defend the union. That is, almost everything, which means no one.
  21. leglun
    leglun 17 October 2014 19: 36
    +2
    Yes 3.14dor Gorbachev and the drunkard Yeltsin all prosrali and drank -3y14dora !!!!
    1. soviet skytourist
      soviet skytourist 17 October 2014 20: 04
      +2
      with their hands, however, the question is what happened over the given gopods' data or is it just the visible part of the iceberg. who and how in reality manages such dolls
  22. Sour
    Sour 17 October 2014 19: 37
    +4
    The reasons for the collapse of the USSR are no different from the reasons for the collapse of Yugoslavia.
    If you create a federal state with the right of certain parts to exit the federation, then you need to understand that sooner or later it will break up. The whole question is when. But this will happen. The reasons for the collapse of the USSR (not to be confused with the reasons for the collapse of socialism) are in its very national-federal structure. A multinational state must be either unitary or doomed to decay. The federal form of the device is suitable only for states such as Germany, where there are no large national minorities inhabiting the outskirts of the country.
    The creators of the USSR in 1922 thought mainly of an imminent world revolution that would destroy all borders. The future unity of the state did not bother them; they initially viewed the USSR as something temporary.
    1. saag
      saag 17 October 2014 19: 56
      0
      Quote: Sour
      A multinational state must be either unitary or doomed to decay. The federal form of the device is suitable only for states such as Germany, where there are no large national minorities inhabiting the outskirts of the country.
      The creators of the USSR in 1922 thought mainly of an imminent world revolution that would destroy all borders. The future unity of the state did not bother them; they initially viewed the USSR as something temporary.


      And now in the state system, has anything changed? The same federal structure, obviously the matter is not in the creators of the USSR, because he is no longer
      1. Sour
        Sour 17 October 2014 20: 03
        0
        Quote: saag
        The same federal structure, obviously the matter is not in the creators of the USSR, because he is no longer

        You judge by form, not by content.
        In Russia, the president can, within the framework of the law, remove any head of the region from office, so today's Russia is actually a unitary state.
        In addition, the titular nation in Russia makes up 81% of the population (approximately at the level of France or Spain, and more than in Ukraine).
        Surprised by the superficiality of your judgments. However, the whole thing, apparently, is in an attempt to shield the creators of the USSR.
    2. soviet skytourist
      soviet skytourist 17 October 2014 20: 09
      +1
      nothing happens by itself
      1. Sour
        Sour 17 October 2014 20: 13
        0
        Quote: sovetskyturist
        nothing happens by itself


        And who said that the collapse of the USSR happened on its own? Nobody seems to be. Of course, specific people participated in this process. But did someone create the conditions for this? Created.
        1. soviet skytourist
          soviet skytourist 17 October 2014 20: 22
          +1
          the root cause of all troubles is elitism and thinking of oneself as one’s beloved as nothing more perfect than the rest — the rest is a matter of technology
  23. borisjdin1957
    borisjdin1957 17 October 2014 19: 46
    +3
    from the Don.
    I do not agree with the thesis-WE collapsed. Everything happens in Moscow, St. Petersburg, large cities. All of these are: revolutions:. And here the population of these cities is to a greater extent guilty of these coups, changes of regime. Even in our village there are no: white-bellies: , and how many of them in Moscow, these loafers!
  24. padded jacket
    padded jacket 17 October 2014 19: 54
    +2
    Regarding the fact that the USSR was destroyed by the Communists:
    By the time Gorbachev was elected General Secretary, Yegor Ligachev, then head of the Department of Organizational and Party Work of the CPSU Central Committee, managed to replace 70% of secretaries of regional and regional party committeesby putting “their trusted” people ready to carry out any order and secure a majority at the Plenums of the Central Committee.
    With the advent of Gorbachev, staff replacements gained a wider scope. In the first three years the composition of the Central Committee was updated by 85% which far exceeded the performance of 1934-1939. Then they amounted to about 77%. In 1988, Gorbachev began "rejuvenation" of the apparatus of the Central Committee. All key posts were put Gorbachevites.
    In the same way, the Council of Ministers of the USSR was updated. Out of 115 pre-Gorbachev ministers there are only TEN left.
    It is known that Yakovlev suggested the most important ideas of the disastrous restructuring to Mikhail Sergeyevich. It was not by chance that he was called behind his “restructuring architect.”
    http://www.specnaz.ru/articles/206/27/1943.htm
    Yakovlev, about this character there are big doubts smile
  25. Password
    Password 17 October 2014 19: 56
    +2
    Maybe I'm wrong. But after all, in a referendum, the majority voted to preserve the Union. But the selfish interests of politicians and those who wanted to profit from the collapse of the USSR outweighed the scales. If the place of the verbiage and rags of Gorbachev, the same Andropov’s will of the majority would have been fulfilled ... Moreover, the three conspirators in Belovezhskaya Pushcha itself realized that they were committing unlawful acts contrary to the results of the referendum, and really feared their arrest. But such a wimp Gorbachev was not able to do it, he only knew how to talk a lot ... As a result, we have what we have.
    1. Sour
      Sour 17 October 2014 20: 17
      +2
      Quote: Sandi
      But the selfish interests of politicians and those who wanted to profit from the collapse of the USSR outweighed the scales.

      This only indicates that the USSR lacked a single political elite.
      The ruling party, at the first serious crisis, crawled along national burrows. One must ask from those who once created these holes. Moreover, the ruling party itself was divided on a national-territorial basis. The country had 15 capitals, 15 central committees, 15 governments. The entire infrastructure for the collapse was created long before the end of the 80s.
  26. lg41
    lg41 17 October 2014 19: 59
    0
    In the collapse of the USSR, the United States contributed a lot of forces and resources. In the second half of the 80s, an economic crisis was expected in the United States, which was much grander in scale than during the Great Depression. But thanks to a set of measures, it was not the United States that collapsed, but the USSR. For a number of years after this, a huge amount of assets migrated from the countries of the former Union to the United States and Europe.
    In one of his books, Soros wrote that he was proud to have taken part in the collapse of the Soviet Union.
    1. Stypor23
      Stypor23 17 October 2014 20: 03
      +2
      Quote: lg41
      In one of his books, Soros wrote that he was proud to have taken part in the collapse of the Soviet Union.

      This muzzle was still lured west by former Soviet scientists, engineers, and other high-class specialists. By the way, Brzezinski spoke in the same vein.
  27. Ivan Tarasov
    Ivan Tarasov 17 October 2014 20: 00
    -1
    If the USSR didn’t fall apart, the Colorado would have continued the Cold War against us, they would not have allowed to fit economically into the West.
    Sanctions would have already gone then, of course, this is not fatal for the country, but still we would not have achieved the goal for which all this hump building was planned - seizing control by the proactive-entry method.
    Now we fit into the Western project on the third and fourth priorities and can change the target vector.
    The USSR will be reborn, renewed, with a large number of republics, with an efficient economy.
    Everything is ahead of us.
    1. Stypor23
      Stypor23 17 October 2014 20: 09
      +2
      Quote: Ivan Tarasov
      The USSR will be reborn, renewed, with a large number of republics, with an efficient economy.

      And the policy of the revived state would be directed, at 100% to the enrichment of its own people, and there were no bazaars like fraternal assistance. Only economically advantageous partnership. Then the country will be sweet (with cognac repeat ).
      1. Ivan Tarasov
        Ivan Tarasov 17 October 2014 20: 19
        +1
        That's right, it will be so.
        1. Stypor23
          Stypor23 17 October 2014 20: 21
          0
          Quote: Ivan Tarasov
          That's right, it will be so.

          You are an optimist, this is bad.
          1. nvv
            nvv 18 October 2014 03: 25
            +3
            Quote: Stypor23
            Quote: Ivan Tarasov
            That's right, it will be so.

            You are an optimist, this is bad.

            Yes, no Valera, he is studying DOTA, and this is the future of reborn Russia hi
    2. Kindof
      Kindof 24 October 2014 20: 27
      0
      If the USSR didn’t fall apart, the Colorado would continue the cold war against us,


      What is that supposed to mean?
      Which side are you writing from?
  28. A1L9E4K9S
    A1L9E4K9S 17 October 2014 20: 24
    +1
    The traitor and Judah Gorbachev is now trying to justify himself, apparently before death he wants to absolve himself of the blame for the death of the Union, the author of his article removes the blame for the collapse of the USSR from Gorbachev and tries to make him not a wine sheep, which the evil wolves so deceived, but his wine is much more than Yeltsin, who took advantage of the weakness of this rag Gorbachev and used the situation to his advantage, in general, both of them are such bastards and their place in hell.
  29. Fire
    Fire 17 October 2014 20: 37
    +5
    It may be off topic, but who does not know - the Central Bank of the Russian Federation is subordinate to the US Federal Reserve.
    http://pandoraopen.ru/2013-10-01/centrobank-rf-podchinyaetsya-frs-ssha/
    1. soviet skytourist
      soviet skytourist 17 October 2014 20: 58
      +5
      how raz po teme
    2. soviet skytourist
      soviet skytourist 17 October 2014 21: 04
      +3
      you can only fool a crowd that doesn’t understand anything. From small prichi there are big consequences, they signed the skins for a hundred years
    3. Userpic
      Userpic 18 October 2014 02: 55
      -5
      Quote: Fire
      Central Bank of the Russian Federation submits to the US Federal Reserve

      fool
      1. nvv
        nvv 18 October 2014 03: 15
        +5
        Quote: Userpic
        Quote: Fire
        Central Bank of the Russian Federation submits to the US Federal Reserve

        fool

        Userpic, and you shouldn’t beat yourself on the forehead, it is. request
        1. Userpic
          Userpic 18 October 2014 03: 44
          -1
          Quote: nvv
          Userpick, but you shouldn’t beat yourself on the forehead
          This is not me - this is a smile

          it is so
          Og, og ...

          Since you are so turned to conspiracy theories, please answer a simple question: why is it defending dominance of world capital ideas of the Russian world opportunistic patriotic sect does the movement use not the Russian and understandable "prophet", "predictor", but the English "predictor"?
          1. nvv
            nvv 18 October 2014 04: 01
            +3
            Quote: Userpic
            Quote: nvv
            Userpick, but you shouldn’t beat yourself on the forehead
            This is not me - this is a smile

            it is so
            Og, og ...

            Since you are so turned to conspiracy theories, please answer a simple question: why is it defending dominance of world capital ideas of the Russian world opportunistic patriotic sect does the movement use not the Russian and understandable "prophet", "predictor", but the English "predictor"?

            For me, call at least a pot, but do not put it in the oven. About the Central Bank: Such information, dime a dozen.
            1. Userpic
              Userpic 18 October 2014 05: 13
              -1
              Quote: nvv
              Such information, dime a dozen.
              Such Delirium - a dime a dozen (a year ago I watched it saw from and to - a divorce for the lazy, and, as a result, stupid suckers, with a bias in conspiracy theories)

              What exactly bothers you about the Central Bank - its supposed independence? Lack of responsibility for the obligations of the Russian Federation? Using carrensi board elements? The ability to appeal to the courts of other states? Print? Allegedly vague status?

              What is it?

              Z.Y. To the question, mind you, you never answered. )))
              1. nvv
                nvv 18 October 2014 05: 52
                +3
                Quote: Userpic
                Such Nonsense - a dime a dozen

                He who has ears, let him hear. Having understood, he will understand.
                Quote: Userpic
                Z.Y. To the question, mind you, you never answered. )))

                Answered.
                Quote: nvv
                Call me a pot, just don’t put it in the oven.

                You and I speak different languages. Unfortunately. Bye. hi
                1. Userpic
                  Userpic 18 October 2014 06: 43
                  -4
                  Quote: nvv
                  He who has ears, let him hear.
                  Having an ass, yes pokupat. Having relieved - will wipe off.
                  What other Solomon wisdom do you know?

                  Answered
                  Gee - gee: "what time is it? - for me at least winter, the main thing is to scrape together for a drink."

                  We speak different languages
                  I speak Russian with you, another thing is that (forgive me for my French) you have the brains of a shit, which, however, is not surprising.
                  Your brethren have a tradition - you tear out a part of Stalin’s speech from the context, and then try to prove that he supposedly denied Marxism.
                  So buddy - find this speech and at least once read it completely, and then answer MYSELF to the question - "Whoa KOBa is lying?" yes
                  1. nvv
                    nvv 18 October 2014 07: 21
                    +1
                    Guys. Who am I talking to now? Call him an animal? Animals will be offended. Do not deserve it. what
                    1. Silumin
                      Silumin 18 October 2014 09: 33
                      +1
                      Guys. Who am I talking to now? Call him an animal? Animals will be offended. Do not deserve it.


                      Hmm, we switched to insults, why?

                      After all, your conspiracy theology is really bullshit, and has nothing to do with reality, to which Userpic reasonedly answered you.
                  2. Kindof
                    Kindof 22 October 2014 11: 42
                    +1
                    It will be useful in teaching other forum participants grammar:
                    Quote: Userpic
                    unsurprisingly

                    unsurprisingly (test word - marvel, emphasis on the first syllable)
                    hi

                    Quote: Userpic
                    forgive me for my french)

                    French, apparently, your native?
          2. Kindof
            Kindof 22 October 2014 12: 51
            +1
            Quote: Userpic
            does not use Russian and understandable "prophet", "predictor", but English "predictor"?


            I believe you are superficially familiar with BER.
            General K. Petrov explained this.
            BER offers solutions for public safety.
            At the same time, the Russian world is positioned not as the "navel of the earth" of a unipolar world, but as a part of a complex multipolar world, in which Russia can take on the role of organizing rational cooperation.
            Therefore, BER uses terminology that is understandable to both our and a foreigner.

            P.S. Your remark boils down to something like this: "If you called yourself a patriot, go in bast shoes."
            Reading your comments, I see that you are a competent and knowledgeable person, therefore such a narrow-minded nitpicking looks like sophistry and trolling.
  30. Shakagami
    Shakagami 18 October 2014 01: 47
    +2
    Who destroyed the USSR? Nomenclature of the USSR.
  31. Romass
    Romass 18 October 2014 03: 05
    -2
    The liquid of which you deign, fell apart. And the Russian donkeys were swallowed for a glass.
  32. kot28.ru
    kot28.ru 18 October 2014 03: 47
    0
    Quote: Silumin
    With their existence, they insult me, as a normal person, with the instincts laid down by Nature


    PF, and if I say that animals, for example, dogs, cats, monkeys, have homosexuality, what can you say?

    Sir, are you also a pervert? whatHowever, it seems so customary among liberals winked
    1. Silumin
      Silumin 18 October 2014 09: 35
      -1
      Sir, are you also a pervert? what


      No, no.

      It was just not cool to translate the topic into "homosexuals". I just meant that they are not even worthy of the attention of ordinary people.
  33. vdtomsk
    vdtomsk 18 October 2014 03: 48
    +2
    One line:
  34. ISKANDER25
    ISKANDER25 18 October 2014 08: 07
    0
    Hello!
  35. iner
    iner 18 October 2014 08: 57
    +3
    Quote: Silumin
    As a person who has been dealing with animals for almost thirty years, I can explain - For them, this is a question of dominance in a pack. If it’s easier, the losing male receives not only a stargazer but also horseradish in the ass. Zone in its purest form.


    Then my cat in the courtyard of one cat spoiled all the time (the other cats beat him and the females didn’t get him until he grew bigger)

    In fact, not only, for example, pygmy chimpanzees have seen a large number of homosexual contacts between group members. Besides heterosexual sex, homosexual is common, especially between females, so-called genital-genital rubbing, although this type of sexual activity is also found in males.



    Nature has other systems of behavior, which in one form or another is the norm, cannibalization, for example, is very common. Maybe we will also include it in the system of European values. I fucked something, gave it on the head and ate it.
  36. VanVanych
    VanVanych 18 October 2014 19: 18
    +1
    Who destroyed the USSR? Nomenclature of the USSR. [/ Quote]

    Which immediately became a nomenclature
    Russia.
    The USSR began to brand and pour mud.
    1. DRA-88
      DRA-88 18 October 2014 19: 21
      +1
      Quote: VanVanych
      Which immediately became a nomenclature
      Russia.
      The USSR began to brand and pour mud.

      I will hold you +
      But I only note that there were much more honest communists!
  37. Prager
    Prager 19 October 2014 15: 38
    0
    it is known who - liberalistic intelligentsia, dissidents like sahorov, and the party nomenclature of the union republics. generally I will not say anything about the role of a hunchback and eltsin.
  38. sigdoc
    sigdoc 20 October 2014 21: 51
    0
    Quote: gunya
    sigdoc SU  Today, 18:37 The communists have collapsed, and now they are blaming the Americans.

    Not communists, but "members of the CPSU."

    LOGICS!!!!!!