Military Review

Eagle vs Mikasy

76
Sitting in the conservatory of the "Eagle", Novikov more and more plunged into hard thoughts. Since the uprising took place on the ship, five days have passed, and the delight of the command of the first-class battleship has gradually been replaced by suspense. After leaving the Second Pacific squadron of 10 in May, the Eagle moved in zigzags, at the slowest speed, south of Jeju Island. “The fact that we got rid of this fool Rozhestvensky is very good, but what to do next? - pondered Novikov. - Where to go now? What happened to our squadron? ”These questions now gave no rest to the young 26-year-old commander. Steps were heard behind the armor. In the control room entered the commander of the BC-2 Kostenko.

- What is sad, Silych?

- The team entrusted me a huge responsibility: their lives, the ship. “I don’t know what to do with this,” grumbled Novikov. - And how are you doing, Volodya?

- I'm not very good. Some gentlemen officers had to throw over the tenth number. You know. No one to command. Skills are very weak. Comrade Rums' his torpedoes from the CU-3 also showed a very weak training. One torpedo finger crushed.

Novikov thoughtfully looked at the chief engineer. The situation really was unenviable. Coal for a breakthrough in Manila is clearly enough butt. For a breakthrough on the Kuriles around Japan, there was not enough at all. In 20-46, the ship's radio station intercepted the message, from which it was clear that the Second Pacific Squadron was completely defeated in the battle near Tsushima Island. The main part of the ships sunk. The rest are scattered. Rozhestvensky himself with headquarters disappeared in an unknown direction.

“I knew it, damn it!” - through his teeth Novikov swore. - But now our fate! The remaining officers do what, Volodya?

- I gave them to Baklanov. On households now. Coarse drayat. Paisiah I charged in a six-inch installation identified. Language grinds a lot, let it work now. Sakellari was cleaning the latrine, - answered Kostenko.

The next morning, in the 10-00, the Eagle was already heading south of Tsushima Island. The team was anxiously waiting. On battle mars, observers peered into the horizon line. In the conning tower, glittering in polished hulls, two sight sights of the central precursor system slowly searched the horizon. The operators in the lenses of their optical eyes tried to catch any small change. From the heavy lead waves of the Sea of ​​Japan blew some kind of incomprehensible nausea. In 11-16, an observer from Mars of the foremast reported on the smoke seen on the horizon. He was immediately caught in the VTsN. The target was gradually approaching, and an hour later, the Japanese battleship Mikasa was discerned four hours later. He was alone and had no external damage. Measured distance - 110 cable.

- What shall we do, Silych? Now we give a pair of full speed, it is possible to try to escape.

- Yes, we only burn coal. How then to get to the Kuril Islands? And where is the guarantee that we will not be accepted on the course? After all, we have already been discovered. And do we just run away like that, Volodya? This is contrary to the new world, that new ideology, which we have been talking about for so long, Vladimir Poliektovich. No, really. We must fight.

Rumble alarm alert. A few seconds later, on the decks I heard the tramp of numerous legs. The upper deck cleared quickly. The guns were uncovered and prepared for battle. Leer piled up in combat. Deep inside the vessel, numerous electric motors muffled. The steam hissed violently. Startled, the three left-side 152-mm turrets at the same time quickly turned and faced the target with the muzzles of their guns. A little later, slowly and heavily, the same position was occupied by the heavy turrets of 305-mm guns. The shutters and curtains of the feed system were crawling. Clicking numerous limit switches and magnetic starters. "Eagle" was preparing for battle - the first in stories the battle of the Soviet warship with the capitalist plague ... [/ i]

Of course, this scenario was extremely unlikely, but the hypothetical duel of the newest Russian battleship “Eagle” with the Japanese “Mikasa”, which is considered by many experts to be at least the best western battleship of that period, naturally causes considerable interest. The period of the “big shipbuilding program” of the late 19th century for our fleet characterized by the fact that this was the only time when our industry handed over to the fleet ships of the main class - battleships of the latest design at that time. Moreover, contrary to custom, she did it on time. Thus, despite the widely advertised backwardness of “agrarian” tsarist Russia, domestic industry and science at that time quite realistically participated in the “constructors' cup” among world powers. In an elite competition - a battleship competition. Yes, this did not help the Russian Navy during the Russo-Japanese War, because for the fleet's top military-political leadership rotten through and through, the most modern technology was like a dead poultice, but this fact, very pleasant for us, is there.

In the article we will try to calculate the possible outcome of the battle between our "Eagle" and the Japanese "Mikasa", as well as assess the capabilities of these battleships in other categories. Our "Eagle" was introduced into the Navy 1 October 1904 year. He was part of a series of Borodino-type battleships (the first battleship of this type joined the Russian Navy 12 October 1903 of the year).

Eagle vs Mikasy


"Eagle", 1904 year. Displacement: 14 400 t. Dimensions: 121,2 x23,2 x7,9 m. Booking: monolithic Krupp. Maximum thickness of solid armor plate: 254 mm. Armament: 2-2х305 mm / L40 AU GK (up to 14,8 km ap), 6-2х152 mm / L45 AU SK (up to 11,3 km), 20-75 mm / L50 AU PMK (IPNMN / OXNXX km) , 6,5-20 mm P, 47-10mm TA (up to 7,62 km), 4 min. GEM: steam, steam engines 381x0,9 20 hp (2 7 hp). Maximum speed: 900. Maximum range: 15 800 miles.

The Japanese ship "Mikasa" was somewhat older than our "Eagle". It became part of the Japanese fleet 1 March 1902 of the year. It was a deeply modernized version of the British battleships of the Majestic type. The ship was entirely built in England - the "mistress of the seas" of that time.



Mikasa, 1902 year. Displacement: 15 140 t. Dimensions: 131 x23,2 x8,3 m. Booking: monolithic Krupp. Maximum thickness of solid armor plate: 356 mm. Armament: 2-2h305 mm / L42,5 UE CC (up 13,7 km), 14-152 mm / L42,5 UE SC (up 9,1km), 20-76 mm UE PMC (up 7,4km), 4-47 mm UE PMK, 4-457 mm TA (up to 2,5km). GEM: steam, steam engines 2x8 000 hp (16 000 hp). Maximum speed: 18,3. Maximum range: 4 600 miles.

If we compare these ships, using only these very basic figures, it is clear that the Mikasy features a bit better than our battleship. In fact, Mikasy has a slightly larger displacement, a slightly larger number of medium-caliber barrels, a slightly higher speed, a higher range, more powerful torpedo armament. Our "Eagle" surpasses the Japanese only in more small-caliber artillery, the presence of many machine guns, the presence of mine obstacles, which, undoubtedly, in some conditions makes it a more useful and effective ship. However, the presence of all these weapons can hardly affect the outcome of the sea battle between these battleships. Based on the analysis of their on-board armament, it is possible to draw the first conclusion as to how this battle will proceed. First, the superiority in speed of “Mikasy” over “Eagle” in 0,5 ties will not give the Japanese any advantage at the initial stage of the battle. Half a node is just 0,9 km / h. Taking into account the distances in sea battles, such a scanty difference in speed can be safely ignored. Consequently, there is only one obvious tactic: having come close enough to effectively use artillery, to conduct continuous shelling of the target until the target either starts to sink or is completely (or almost completely) forced to stop returning fire. After that, there is an even closer approach: to the range of the use of ship torpedoes and the final shooting of the enemy battleship by them. The fire control systems of both ships ensure the effective use of artillery at a distance of no more than 10 kilometers. Further, the probability of hitting an enemy ship was rapidly approaching zero. In addition, the distance in 10 kilometers is the limiting one for medium-caliber artillery; therefore, one would expect that the Eagle and Mikasa, having exchanged a few volleys of twelve-inch guns from the 70-80 cable, would quickly shorten the distance to ~ 40 cable - comfortable for both opponents of the distance for reasons of accuracy and range of their ship artillery.

Before you begin the analysis, it is worth focusing on the capabilities of this ship's artillery. And not as such, but in combination with the ammunition available at that time. The main caliber of the "Eagle" were two twin tower art installations. Each with a pair of 305 mm / L40 guns. Mikasa also had two turret gun mounts, carrying a pair of 305 mm / L42,5 guns. Comparative characteristics of the capabilities of these systems are listed in the 1 table.

Table 1




The artworks of the main caliber of our “Eagle” surpassed the Japanese in the guidance angles (of course), in the firing range (as a result), in the initial velocity of the projectiles and, accordingly, the accuracy of fire at almost all distances. Well, and on the ultimate armor penetration, as they say, "point blank". But the main-caliber artillery systems “Mikasy” possessed a number of advantages that were more applicable in a real battle — significantly heavier projectiles, almost twice the weight of explosives in each high-explosive projectile. Almost two times higher technical rate of fire. The higher penetration ability of Japanese armor-piercing shells at real combat distances is also offset by the Japanese battleship. While the amount of explosives in the Japanese armor-piercing projectile was not much less than in our fragmentation, which makes it a kind of semi-invasive projectile. Other disadvantages of these ship-mounted artillery systems include poor-quality fuses. And with the one and the other side. Ours often did not work, as a result of which the high-explosive projectile did almost no harm to the target (the armor-piercing, naturally, did harm and did not explode). The Japanese often exploded at the time of the shot, as a result of which the gun barrel was torn off and the gun went down before repair in its own port. In addition, the Japanese shells exploded almost instantly - without slowing down. And the 20-kg explosives BB outside the armored side is not as dangerous as the 5-kg explosions deep inside the vessel, as it was calculated in our projectiles that had 0,01 slowing detonators with. In the offset Artillery "Eagle" can still be attributed to the high location of the bow installation, with the result that she could shoot accurately in any weather. The higher rate of fire of heavy artillery "Mikasy" played a role at very close distances of the battle (at the distance of the DPA), where the aiming process was simplified to the limit. In the battle at a normal distance, this difference played almost no role, since the time of calculation and aiming took about 2-3 minutes for each volley (and no one would fire at precisely such installations). Medium-caliber artillery was an equally important component of the artillery complex of both ships. Comparative characteristics of medium-sized artillery systems "Eagle" and "Mikasy" are given in the table 2.

Table 2




By analogy with the main caliber, the Eagle’s medium-caliber installations exceeded the Japanese in shelling and range angles, as well as in initial speed (and, accordingly, accuracy). But the main advantage of domestic 152-mm artillery tower installations was significantly higher armor penetration - on average, by 20%. In addition, their high location provided confident shooting in almost any weather. Japanese 152-mm casemate installations traditionally had a slightly greater projectile weight and a significantly larger explosive charge plus greater rate of fire. In addition, the Mikasa carried two more 152-mm guns. The advantages and disadvantages of fuses are similar to those of the main caliber. A significant drawback of the mid-caliber artillery "Mikasy" was its unimportant security due to the casemate layout. But the main thing is that the 10 of the 14 six-inch guns were located on the lower battery deck at a very short distance from the water (the 75-mm tools of the middle battery in the Eagle were approximately the same distance from the water). As a result, with any strong emotion to use them will not work. Exclusively manual aiming drives also do not add bonuses to the Japanese battleship.

As for small-caliber artillery, we will assume its effectiveness conditionally the same, however, we note that the 20 75-mm guns of the Eagle had good protection for their level — no worse than the 152-mm guns on the Mikas. At the same time, the Mikasy 76-mm guns stood openly on the bridges, and it is unlikely that they will be able to use them in battle.

Summing up the artillery of both ships, let us return to what was already said in passing — fuses and explosives. So, the fuses on domestic ammunition, of course, were bad. They very often did not work, as a result of which the effectiveness of domestic high-explosive shells was very low - they almost had half the explosives in them than in Japanese shells. However, for armor-piercing shells it was not so important, because, punching armor, they still carried chaos and destruction to the insides of the enemy ship. Japanese projectiles, as already mentioned, had instant fuses (less than 0,0001 c), which immediately devalues ​​their armor-piercing projectiles, despite the excellent characteristics of armor penetration. In general, they could be called armor-piercing only conditionally - of course, they could penetrate the armor, but they couldn’t penetrate deep inside the ship because the explosion occurred much earlier. Naturally, in such a situation, the "critical" of such a projectile vital parts of the battleship (which are usually located deep inside) was impossible. The maximum that the capable armor-piercing shells of “Mikasy” were on was to make a hole in the board of the enemy ship, that is, to cause damage to the 2 hazard category. It turns out that even against the background of "bad" shells of the "Eagle", there is absolutely nothing to flash at Mikasy's ammunition.

As for the explosive itself, its high-explosive impact is determined by a special parameter, which is called "explosiveness". Explosiveness - the performance of explosives, the ability to destroy the surrounding materials. This characteristic is determined by the amount generated in the explosion of gases. The more gases are produced, the more work a given explosive can perform. Measurement of explosiveness in cubic centimeters by the Trauzl method. The value of the explosive for shimozy - 290 cm ^ 3. For pyroxylin - 420 cm ^ 3. Thus, pyroxylin is not only not inferior to the shimose “1,4 times”, but on the contrary, it surpasses it 1,45 times. The myth of the superiority of shimozy over pyroxylin appeared because, when calculating its effectiveness, they tried to operate the so-called. "Speed ​​of detonation" shimozy - 7200 m / s. In wet pyroxylin, it is 6000 m / s. This is an erroneous calculation. Thus, it is not "force" that is determined, but kinetic energy, which has no relation to the energy of an explosion.

Summarizing all the above, we can conclude that the Eagle could counter the Japanese with quite adequate fire power, and given the more powerful medium-caliber artillery (even with a smaller number of guns), it was perhaps even superior (especially with weather deterioration). Which, however, it was necessary to still be able to use in battle, since Mikasy also had his own “horse”, capable of bringing the victory to “Eagle” with the correctly chosen tactics of the battle.

As for torpedoes, the Japanese have an undoubted advantage here, since the range of launching its torpedoes 2,5-3 times exceeds the maximum limits of the torpedoes of the Russian ship. Based on the analysis of the capabilities of the onboard artillery (and the commanders of both battleships should be aware of these capabilities), the following combat tactics emerge. The most obvious tactic for “Mikasy” is to keep the distance with the “Eagle” of the 45 cable (at the limit of the medium caliber artillery) and develop to the limit the fire of the onboard artillery, especially the medium caliber, using only powerful high-explosive shells. Calculation here on the suppression of the "Eagle" hail of mine bombs, which will cause numerous fires and destroy all the outdoor equipment of the Russian battleship, not allowing him to accurately fire back. Actually, the Japanese used this tactic in reality in the Tsushima battle 15 in May 1905 of the year. This is followed by a complete decommissioning of the entire Eagle artillery, then a rapprochement and a torpedo attack on the finishing moves. The “Eagle” had nothing to try to defeat the Japanese in “his sandbox” - that is, with a similar shelling of the enemy with high-explosive shells. You need to use your funds. And they are.

First, you can try to hit the Japanese on the deck with armor-piercing shells from the maximum distance ~ 80 cable. Yes, the probability of hitting is small, but even one successful hit could be fatal. There is also an option to use armor-piercing shells against the onboard armor of a Japanese ship, but for this, the Eagle needed to get close to him at a distance of about 20-30 cable. It’s impossible to get any closer, since the higher rate of fire of the Mikasy 305-mm gun mounts will have an effect here. In addition, coming very close, you can run into the Japanese "Long Lance" Tsushima spill. The 20-30 cable is a very good fight distance for Mikasa for the Eagle. Here a powerful battery of 75-mm guns of the Russian battleship will play its role. In this case, the "Eagle" can help his very perfect for that time artillery complex. “Mikasa” can be in relation to the enemy either in the beam or at the corners of him no more than 60 degrees, since with a larger turn (for example, when trying to escape, catch up or take a better position), “Mikasy” has only two 305 -mm guns (already with a deviation of more than 30 degrees) and one or two caliber 152 mm. The Eagle is much more free in this respect - no matter how you turn it, but 6-8 152-mm guns will fire at the enemy, and all four 305-mm guns will work at angles from the beam up to 45 degrees. Fans of constantly remembering about the 0,5-node superiority in speed “Mikasy” should work hard to multiply their speed by the cosines of the same angles.

So, with the tactics of battle decided. It's time to move on to the simulation of this heavy duel. But this is the next part.

To be continued ...
Author:
76 comments
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  1. PROXOR
    PROXOR 8 October 2014 09: 58
    +7
    Pancake!!! So I began to read, I got carried away directly, and here my UNLOVELY continuation follows !!!! You can’t be so respected.
    1. Crang
      8 October 2014 10: 57
      +5
      To be continued. We must thoroughly approach the issue.
      1. ATATA
        ATATA 8 October 2014 16: 14
        +2
        Such battles can be modeled when there were no real battles between the indicated ships.
        In this case, the battle was and it ended in defeat, so the second part is interesting, only from the point of view of an alternative history, but not as a technical analysis.
        1. Crang
          8 October 2014 16: 18
          +7
          Quote: ATATA
          In this case, the battle was

          There was a battle not between the Eagle and Mikasa, but between our fleet and the Japanese. And all the ships of our fleet in this battle were essentially tied hands and blindfolded. Thanks to the "genius" of Zinovy ​​Petrovich. And here a fair fight is simulated.
          1. Ne on
            Ne on 12 October 2014 11: 41
            +1
            ZP Rozhestvensky is a normal military man with the appropriate psychology: "servant to the king" + warlike ardor.
            Such was full before him and full after.
            And that the soldiers (sailors) are killed in masses, so "that's why, my friend and the war!"
            Wasn't the marshal with 3-grade education Zhukov also "heroically" fighting?
            Only you cannot scold him - he is a part of the System and its "victorious" image.
      2. Ne on
        Ne on 12 October 2014 11: 30
        -1
        Very interesting article and thoughts!
        Since childhood, I reread Tsushima many times and could not understand the reason for such a defeat.
        Thoughtful reasoning and denunciations of the "rotten system" of the illiterate Novikov, even if they had grounds, did not explain everything.
        I think it is appropriate to recall the thought of one writer: "The weak side, getting into the war, makes only one mistake - it gets into it! All other mistakes are secondary."
        Despite the seemingly available evidence of some victories and successes of the weak against the strong, it will not be possible to cancel this idea: in the 21st century, the illusion of victory on "mass heroism", blossoming in magnificent bloom in Russia, is all the more doomed to failure.
        This will inevitably be aggravated by the persistent desire to "defend the Motherland" by sending new "Varangians" to the new Chemulpo, and "Orlov" to Tsushima.
        I read the sequel with interest.
    2. African
      African 8 October 2014 13: 10
      +1
      I am joining. You can not do it this way. You can knock on the ears .. That's when there will be a sequel? I'll look at the internet.
  2. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 8 October 2014 10: 06
    +18
    Sorry Krang, minus. Did not impress! Some kind of fantasy on the topic "if only" yes "if only" ... The data is incorrect. This is a deception, to indicate some kind of maximum thickness of the plates, but not to say that this is the thickness of the conning tower armor. And the conning tower is not a ship as a whole. Discrepancies in figures of 1-2 percent are not fundamental. The use of torpedoes by battleships of those years was already so youthful that many contemporaries understood it. By that time, almost all the battleships of the leading countries were built according to the same scheme with four 12 "kakibra guns (only the Germans had 11" guns, but they had their own views on the world). The difference in medium-caliber and small-caliber artillery is so insignificant that the ships do not play.
    It is not ships that are fighting, but people! The training of the crew plays a role, which allows them to fire at a practically high rate, and, therefore, send more metal to the enemy per unit of time. The skill of the gunners plays a role. Allowing you to shoot faster and in conditions of changing distances and speeds, it is more accurate to fire than the enemy. Yes, they did not pierce the Eagle's armor, but multiple hits made their ship a wreck in unarmored parts. And what is the use of Russian shells that pierce armor, if their number is insignificant. Yes, I got Mikasa and my portion of hits. BUT ... hits from everyone, not just one. Had they fought one-on-one, I am more than sure that “Eagle” would have lost. Because the Japanese before the battle shot more than one set of barrels and more than one ton of ammunition, honing their skills. And hypothetical comparisons remain just hypothetical comparisons. Maybe someone unfamiliar with the subject will like this game, but in battle other factors are more important than petty comparisons of characteristics.
    Best regards hi
    This is just my opinion ...
    1. Tirpitz
      Tirpitz 8 October 2014 11: 55
      +6
      You + Tsushima put everything in its place. The Japanese shells mowed up the servants like a sickle.
    2. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets 8 October 2014 12: 03
      +3
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Maybe someone unfamiliar with the subject will like this game, but other factors are more significant in battle than petty comparisons of characteristics.

      Well, what are you so immediately and face. smile The article is not finished. But of course I agree with this:
      Quote: Rurikovich
      The role is played by crew training, which makes it possible to fire practically at a high pace, and therefore send more metal per enemy per unit of time. The role played by the trained gunners. Allows you to shoot faster and in the conditions of changing distances and speeds more accurately to fire than the enemy.
    3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 October 2014 15: 16
      +3
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Yes, they did not penetrate the Eagle's armor, but multiple hits made their ship a wreck in unarmored parts

      Nuuu, taking into account that as many as 5 305-mm shells hit the "Eagle", and about half of the shells fired by the Japanese battleships were armor-piercing ...
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 8 October 2014 19: 38
        +4
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Nuuu, taking into account that as many as 5 305-mm shells hit the "Eagle", and about half of the shells fired by the Japanese battleships were armor-piercing ...

        May be. But “Eagle” was fourth in the ranks, and he got it at first not very much. Therefore, going second or third, he would have shared the sad fate of the previous matelots. He was saved by the Japanese conduct of the battle and the fact that by the time he appeared at the head of the formation, the outcome of the battle was a foregone conclusion. Having an advantage in speed, the Japanese kept the best ships in number in the ranks under concentrated fire. Simply, the move did not reach the "Eagle". The place was taken by "Nikolay 1" and the squadron ceased to exist as a single organism. But what am I explaining, I am sure that you would know the battle at "5." Besides the fact that the "Eagle" remained afloat is the gateway of fate ...
        1. Crang
          9 October 2014 08: 31
          +1
          Quote: Rurikovich
          But “Eagle” was fourth in the ranks, and he got it at first not very much. Therefore, going second or third, he would have shared the sad fate of previous matelots.

          Is not a fact. On the "Eagle" in Tikharya, against the order of Rozhdestvensky "nothing to do with the ships," the necessary measures were taken and the "Eagle" was prepared quite well for battle. At least better than any other ship in the squadron.
          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol 9 October 2014 09: 30
            0
            these events did not affect the number of shells that got into it or the place in the ranks
          2. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 9 October 2014 09: 43
            0
            Quote: Krang
            Is not a fact. On the "Eagle" in Tikharya, against the order of Rozhdestvensky "nothing to do with the ships," the necessary measures were taken and the "Eagle" was prepared quite well for battle. At least better than any other ship in the squadron

            And here the brains of the commander play a huge role. There are many examples of the activity of individual fleet commanders, positively affecting the combat effectiveness of their ships, but, alas, not affecting the overall picture of lost battles. After all, even if there are well-trained ships in the ranks with an intelligent commander, then being at the head of the direct opposite with "success" neutralizes this advantage
    4. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 8 October 2014 16: 39
      +2
      Quote: Rurikovich
      but multiple hits made their ship wreck in unarmored parts

      At the same time, he went under his own power at a decent speed. And he shot at him the entire armored detachment. Consequently, in a duel, one by one the number of hits will be an order of magnitude smaller. For example, the Empress fired at Breslau-coverings like there were no direct ones .. I do not exclude depletion of ammunition on both ships before critical damage is inflicted; however, the habit of storing shells and charges in towers can lead to a deplorable result
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 8 October 2014 19: 40
        +1
        Quote: Pilat2009
        At the same time, he walked under his own power at a decent speed.

        If 9 knots is decent speed, then I'm a ballerina. Now, if they cut circles with at least 14 nodes, as the 1st squadron ran, then there would be a different conversation. About shooting the entire squad read above smile
        1. Crang
          9 October 2014 08: 22
          +2
          The "Eagle" held 9 knots only in the daytime battle. And now the ship, which received a good "dose" in five hours of the hardest battle, quite naturally, at half a throttle, developed 14uz when the first got up "Nikolai-I" (this one was going at maximum speed) and calmly maintained that speed all night. And he could have been more if he hadn't waited for "Nikolai".
          1. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 9 October 2014 09: 47
            0
            I will not argue - maybe so. So the "dose" turned out to be non-lethal (as opposed to sisterships) and respect to the machine team. I repeat: “Eagle” was lucky that he was fourth.
  3. ringsoul
    ringsoul 8 October 2014 10: 08
    +4
    Impressed. He has been fascinated by the Russian-Japanese war since childhood (from watching "Varyag" in the early 70s). I consider what I have read as a serious application for renouncing the myth of the backwardness of Russia's naval technology at that time. I will wait for the continuation. Good luck to the author!
    1. avt
      avt 8 October 2014 12: 25
      +11
      Quote: ringsoul
      Impressed. Fascinated by the Russo-Japanese War since childhood

      Well then, you should know the analysis of the participant of the events, Kostenko, who was exposed in the article, who quite specifically, without the lyrics of a "dialogue" with Novikov, lucidly and technically competently described in his "On" Oryol "in Tsushima" the shortcomings revealed during the battle as technical , and the tactical use of .. Eagle ", and also mentioned a strategic mistake - when the battleships of a project not intended for ocean voyages were forced to wander half the world without relying on bases and as a result repeated the history of the Spanish squadron sent to the Philippines, but in a tragic performance. that "Eagle" as a whole was not inferior to the Japanese, proved the first ship of this project - "Tsesarevich", and the last ship of the "Borodino" series - "Glory" so heroically, with a competent, trained crew and command, opposed the dreadnoughts, together with the "Tsarevich"! Not to mention the armadillos of the same age and not the Japanese, but the Germans, it is quite a fact.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 October 2014 15: 17
        +4
        Quote: avt
        , and also mentioned a strategic mistake - when the armadillos of a project not intended for ocean voyages

        Which once again shows the value of Kostenko's memoirs. If any battleships were intended for ocean voyages, it was the EDR of the Borodino series
  4. Delta
    Delta 8 October 2014 10: 26
    +3
    Impressed by the phrase. "the first battle in history Soviet warship with the capitalist plague "
  5. Alexander
    Alexander 8 October 2014 10: 46
    0
    Who has the coolest stats, did he win? Yes, they played with toys.
  6. Karabanov
    Karabanov 8 October 2014 11: 06
    +6
    I agree with Rurikovich ... I believe that the "Eagle" as a warship was not inferior to the "Mikasa", and under equal conditions in a hypothetical one-on-one battle, it had every chance of victory. But this is precisely what fate did not provide. The decisive factor here was the experience and training of commanders and crews. And by the way, the Japanese sailors fought for the second year, and our teams have a large number of frightened recruits and various rabble from the staff. And the admirals did not shine with genius (with the exception of Makarov). This ultimately predetermined the outcome of the battle, and then the entire campaign.
    1. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets 8 October 2014 12: 05
      0
      Quote: Karabanov
      yes different rabble from shtafnikov

      About this in more detail, please.
      1. avt
        avt 8 October 2014 15: 06
        +3
        Quote: Vladimirets
        About this in more detail, please.

        And this is he Novikov-Pryboya retells in his own words, well, the beginning of "Tsushima" True, you see, there was not enough patience and curiosity to find out that NONE of the sailor and officer deserted from the squadron!
        1. Karabanov
          Karabanov 8 October 2014 18: 13
          +2
          The dude flashed, well done patient and inquisitive ...
          Taken from Wiki:
          The position of the squadron was further complicated by the fact that the naval command, assuming its fate, decided to equip it with personnel “according to the residual principle” —that is, those sailors that for some reason were considered the worst in the composition were sent to the ships going to Vladivostok fleet. A. S. Novikov, the battalion from the squadron battleship Orel, describes this composition as follows:
          Many sailors were called up from stock. These elderly people, obviously weaned from naval service, lived with memories of their homeland, were sick of separation from their homes, with their children, and their wife. The war fell on them unexpectedly, like a terrible disaster, and they, preparing for an unprecedented campaign, performed work with the grim look of strangers. The team included many new recruits. Frustrated and miserable, they looked at everything with a frozen horror in their eyes. They were intimidated by the sea, on which they came for the first time, and even more - the unknown future. Even among the sailors who graduated from various special schools, there was no ordinary fun. Only penalties, in contrast to the others, held more or less vigorously. The coastal authorities, in order to get rid of them as a harmful element, came up with the easiest way for this: to write them off on ships setting off for war. Thus, to the dismay of the senior officer, we got them up to seven percent.
          Naturally, the professional level of such sailors was extremely low. The situation was not better with non-commissioned officers. And, given that during the campaign the time was not used to prepare personnel, the Russian squadron came with a crew to the battle, whose courage and reckless courage could hardly compensate for the lack of knowledge and skills.
    2. Ne on
      Ne on 12 October 2014 22: 25
      0
      You are right: the Borodino type was in no way inferior to the Mikasa!
      Best of all - in my opinion - the situation was described by the historian I Bunich (not to be confused with the economist with the same name!): "The fleet of the 19th century went to fight the fleet of the 20th century."
      Russia was ruined by a vicious policy and a tyrannical system that naturally generates it ...
      Which, changing its name, rhetoric, symbolism and flags, finishes it in the 21st century.
  7. tlauicol
    tlauicol 8 October 2014 12: 00
    +5
    75mm batteries at a distance of 20-30kb? yes there would be meat, this is not a reflection of a mine attack! the first 6-12thin projectile would repel any desire from the servant of small guns to fight.
    enemy fire performance is higher.
    get from 80kb to the deck? An eagle and two ammunition would not be enough - too insignificant percentage of hits. But remember the training in Nossi-Bae! easier to immediately throw shells overboard
    and Mikas’s speed will have an advantage, because the base is close by, and the Eagle has nowhere to go without fuel
    1. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets 8 October 2014 13: 39
      +1
      Quote: Tlauicol
      and Mikas’s speed will have an advantage, because the base is close by, and the Eagle has nowhere to go without fuel

      Does the speed depend on the amount of cardiff on board? Did not know.
      1. avt
        avt 8 October 2014 14: 34
        +4
        Quote: Vladimirets
        Does the speed depend on the amount of cardiff on board? Did not know.

        Naturally! The huge difference between cardiff and say Sukansky. Cardif actually even kept a strategic reserve. By the way, here, after bombing the Donbass, we already got acquainted with the furnace features with different brands of coal from the thermal power station
        1. Vladimirets
          Vladimirets 8 October 2014 15: 07
          +1
          Quote: avt
          Naturally! The huge difference between cardiff and say Suchansky

          Yes, I'm not talking about the quality of coal, but about the effect of its quantity on speed.
          1. avt
            avt 8 October 2014 16: 07
            +2
            Quote: Vladimirets
            Yes, I'm not talking about the quality of coal, but about the effect of its quantity on speed.

            Direct dependence through heating of boilers and as a result of steam supply to the machine, plus ash content in the furnace.
      2. tlauicol
        tlauicol 8 October 2014 19: 06
        +4
        of course it depends: the speed depends on the number of coal on board and the distance to the base - the Eagle could not afford the race, otherwise he would sing the famous:
        "A tone would be twenty - twenty-five coal,
        Lord, give us - let's sail to Shanghai! "
        1. Vladimirets
          Vladimirets 8 October 2014 20: 42
          0
          Quote: Tlauicol
          of course it depends: the speed depends on the number of coal on board and the distance to the base - the Eagle could not afford to race

          belay What races? A hypothetical naval battle is considered, rather than catching one ship by another. request
          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol 9 October 2014 05: 47
            0
            do you need to chew every word?

            a battle in which Mikasa, having an advantage in speed, will choose the distance (forget about armor-piercing shells and 75mm guns), the heading angle, or even just wait for the reinforcements to arrive, without even letting them fire. a battle in which the increase in speed for the Eagle is certain death in the endless sea
            1. Pilat2009
              Pilat2009 9 October 2014 12: 00
              0
              Quote: Tlauicol
              having an advantage in speed, the CAM will choose the distance (forget about armor-piercing shells and 75mm guns), the course angle, or even just wait for the reinforcements to arrive, without even letting them fire

              At the maximum distance, hits will be per teaspoon per hour
              You can count the number of hits at Jutland. And there were much more advanced systems of the LMS stood
              Heading angle also cannot be kept constantly because it’s not a line of 10 ships that is difficult to go around
    2. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 8 October 2014 15: 49
      +1
      Quote: Tlauicol
      75mm batteries at a distance of 20-30kb? yes there would be meat, this is not a reflection of a mine attack! the first 6-12thin projectile would repel any desire from the servant of small guns to fight.

      Yes, but the servant of the Russian armadillos was hiding behind the armor, but the Japanese guns stood openly.
    3. Motors1991
      Motors1991 8 October 2014 16: 06
      +4
      In 1907-1908, long-range firing was practiced on the battleship ,, St. Panteleimon ,, in the Black Sea, and so it turned out that when shooting at 60 cable on the old Tsushima shooting tables, the deviation of the 305mm shell was six cable, therefore there wasn’t Oryol has a chance to defeat Mikassa, if only His Majesty would not intervene, but in that war he was just playing along with the Japanese. Here if Mikassa met (met) Panteleimon of the 1908-1909 model, then the Japanese would not have any chances, suffice it to say that on Russian ship was fired over the horizon, the battleship St. Panteleimon confidently hit targets at a distance of 100-110 cable, which no one in the world could do.
      1. Crang
        8 October 2014 16: 10
        +1
        Quote: Motors1991
        , suffice it to say that the Russian ship was practiced shooting over the horizon, the battleship St. Panteleimon surely hit targets at a distance of 100-110 cable, which no one in the world could do.

        Right and so confident? He hit just once. And then there was no equipment for practicing shooting over the horizon.
        1. Motors1991
          Motors1991 8 October 2014 19: 51
          +3
          The practice of firing was carried out under the leadership of Admiral G.F. Tsivinsky, his son died along with the battleship Borodino in the Tsushima battle. So, to fire over the horizon at Panteleimon (who does not know the former Potemkin), the gunner’s officer with two sailors was placed on the Martian platform at a height 30 meters and he was already firing on the phone. On training firing in 1908, the layba, I don’t know what size it is, but probably smaller than any warship, was destroyed from a second salvo at a distance of 90 cables. Nobody in the world shoot like that I couldn’t. By the way, during World War I, Panteleimon dropped several shells at Goeben exactly from a distance of 100-110 cable. If the training of the Russian sailors of Rozhestvensky’s squadron was at least approximately the same as at the Black Sea squadron in 1908, the Japanese would certainly be defeated in the Tsushima battle .
  8. Yuri11076
    Yuri11076 8 October 2014 13: 28
    +2
    Quote: Krang
    To be continued. We must thoroughly approach the issue.

    Thank you, I read it with pleasure !!!
  9. Azzzwer
    Azzzwer 8 October 2014 13: 44
    +1
    the backwardness of "agrarian" tsarist Russia, domestic industry and science at that time quite realistically participated in the "constructors' cup" among world powers. In the elite competition - the battleship competition. Yes, this did not help the Russian Navy during the Russo-Japanese War, because for the rotten top military-political leadership of the fleet, the most modern technology was like a dead poultice, but this very pleasant fact is evident for us.
    When they talk about the technical backwardness of tsarist Russia, they mean precisely the "rotten through and through the top military-political leadership" which was unable to receive benefits and benefits for its country from technical progress, but received only for itself.
  10. blizart
    blizart 8 October 2014 13: 44
    +2
    Nothing about organizing a service. And she was on top in the Japanese Navy, and in general altarnative history, if only if mushrooms were growing in the yard
  11. Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 8 October 2014 13: 46
    +1
    I think the speed of detonation affects the destructive effects of an explosion. The author is wrong.
    1. Falcon5555
      Falcon5555 8 October 2014 18: 01
      +1
      And who is minus? Silent, answer me. Is it some disagreement in the speed of detonation?
  12. indeveral
    indeveral 8 October 2014 14: 24
    +2
    About Mikasa's rate of fire with the main caliber. Now I don't remember exactly, but I read that on this battleship, as well as on all the others built in England, for reloading, it was necessary to turn the turret to zero. Or was it just the older battleships Fuji and Yashima?
    1. Crang
      8 October 2014 14: 49
      +1
      Quote: indeveral
      Or was it just about the older battleships Fuji and Yashima?

      Exactly. Only them. As a result, the rate of fire is 1 volley in 2,5 minutes.
  13. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 8 October 2014 15: 08
    +3
    Dear Krang, BRAVO! Great analysis, I really liked it. You very thoughtfully and meticulously worked through the material and laid out a highly decent work - it's nice to discuss this!
    It’s a pity that some mistakes crept into your work. Let me list them
    an 20-kg explosion outside an armored side is not as dangerous as an 5-kg explosion deep inside a ship

    Exactly! But the trouble is that the "Eagle" did not have armor-piercing shells containing 5,3 kg of explosives. The trouble is that so much explosives have already been received by the 331,7 kg projectile of the 1907 model, and we entered the RYV in general and Tsushima in particular with an armor-piercing projectile containing ... 1,3 (in words ONE KILOGRAMS THREE GRAMS) pyroxylin.
    In the sources for this, there is an enormous confusion, because many indicate 5,3 kg of the projectile arr 1907 g and think that the Tsushima were the same. And I am convinced that if our guys in Tsushima had armor-piercing shells about 5,3 kg of explosives, the Japanese would not have easily gotten away. Or maybe ... maybe everything could go differently ....
    The higher rate of fire of the heavy artillery "Mikasy" played a role at very close combat distances (at the DPV range), where the aiming process was simplified to the limit. In a battle at a normal distance, this difference played almost no role, since the calculation and aiming time took about 2-3 minutes for each salvo (and no one would shoot from such installations).

    Unfortunately, this is not true. In battles near Shantung and Tsushima, Japanese battleships fired in the 1,5 and more main-caliber shells than ours. If you were right - the number of shots would be about the same
    But the main thing is that the 10 of the 14 six-inch guns were located on the lower battery deck at a very small distance from the water (about the same distance from the water were the 75-mm guns of the medium battery in the "Eagle"). As a result, with any strong excitement, they cannot be used.

    I draw your attention to the fact that in Tsushima the ships fought with excitement from three to four (in the morning) to 6 points in the evening and the Japanese six-inch artillery had no problems.
    You have specified the rate of fire of the Russian six-inch turrets as 1 volley per 12 seconds. This, alas, is completely wrong - even on "Slava" and even after upgrades, the turrets fired 1 volley every 15 seconds at a medium elevation angle and 1 volley every 20 seconds - at high elevations. The "Eagle" was most likely lower (the towers were not modernized). In addition, the turret feed mechanisms did not allow more than 7 rounds per minute. - i.e. in a protracted battle, 3,5 volleys is the limit even for the upgraded "Glory"
    1. Crang
      8 October 2014 15: 37
      +2
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      In addition, the turret feed mechanisms did not allow for more than 7 rounds per minute. - i.e. in a protracted battle, 3,5 volleys is the limit even for the upgraded "Glory"

      It was Slava that fired 5 volleys per minute from 152mm installations. As far as I know, their modernization did not affect the supply system. Improved ventilation. Introduced blowing the barrels with compressed air. Jenny's clutches were installed for smooth guidance. The feed was not altered.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 October 2014 16: 46
        +1
        Quote: Krang
        Just "Slava" and gave out 5 volleys per minute from 152mm installations

        When and where?
    2. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 8 October 2014 16: 48
      +1
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Japanese battleships fired in 1,5 or more shells of the main caliber than ours.

      Well, I don’t know, I don’t know, there is an opinion that not more than ours
      By the way, on Oryol in one of the towers it’s like to shoot a couple of times
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 October 2014 17: 15
        +1
        Quote: Pilat2009
        Well, I don’t know, I don’t know, there is an opinion that not more than ours

        This opinion went for a walk with the light hand of Kostenko, who said that the "Oryol" shot almost all the shells, they were dragging them almost on their hands from one tower to another.
        In fact, this was not the case - the Japanese, after they had brought the "Eagle" to themselves, unloaded all the shells from it, almost all the ammunition (taking into account the overload taken over, minus the one shot during the exercises). Lacked, in my opinion, 54 shells
        1. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 11 October 2014 10: 57
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Not enough, in my opinion, 54 shells

          54 divided by 4 = 13
          It turns out gave 13,5 volleys)))
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 11 October 2014 12: 27
            +1
            Quote: Pilat2009
            It turns out gave 13,5 volleys)))

            Well, the Japanese gave an average of 27 volleys :))
          2. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 11 October 2014 13: 44
            0
            Quote: Pilat2009
            It turns out gave 13,5 volleys)))

            Well, if you count 1 volley, even in 3 minutes, it turns out that he shot only the first hour of the battle. What then did the rest of the time?
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 11 October 2014 16: 48
              +1
              Quote: Pilat2009
              Well, if you count 1 volley let in 3 minutes

              Do not think so :)))
              Take the Japanese armadillos. They fought for about 3 hours, 15 minutes. During this time, they fired about 445 ammunition or 110 GK shells per battleship or 27,5 volleys, which corresponds to approximately 1 volley in 7 minutes :))) And you count one volley in three minutes :)))
              In addition, as far as I remember, in this battle no one shot
  14. Crang
    8 October 2014 15: 31
    +2
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    But the trouble is that the "Eagle" did not have armor-piercing shells containing 5,3 kg of explosives. The trouble is that so much explosives have already been received by the 331,7 kg projectile of the 1907 model, and we entered the RYV in general and Tsushima in particular with an armor-piercing projectile containing ... 1,3 (in words ONE KILOGRAMS THREE GRAMS) pyroxylin.

    Andrey 1,3kg BB contained our 152mm armor-piercing projectile. But the number of explosives in 305mm shells of the sample 1887 and 1907 was the same - 5,3 kg. The difference of the projectile sample 1907 was:
    1. The presence of "Makarov" and, in combination, a ballistic tip, which increased the firing range by 10%.
    2. New fuses.
    3. Pyroxylin with optimized humidity.
    All this increased their effectiveness in such a drastic way. So in Tsushima we were just missing normal 305mm armor-piercing shells model 1887
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Unfortunately, this is not true. In battles near Shantung and Tsushima, Japanese battleships fired in 1,5 or more shells of the main caliber than ours.

    So what? And under Tsushima, the Japanese battleships fired fewer main caliber shells than ours. They were given a clear order - "shoot less often, but better aim." What does it mean? And the fact that the Yapas made the proper conclusions about the battles in the Yellow Sea.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    I draw your attention to the fact that in Tsushima the ships fought with excitement from three to four (in the morning) to 6 points in the evening and the Japanese six-inch artillery had no problems.

    There were. They were shooting to the limit. In the First World War, in the battle of Coronel, the British armored cruisers of the Good Hope class (count one to one with the Japanese Asama-class cruisers) in a little worse weather could no longer shoot from the lower tier medium-caliber artillery. In the same way, our "Borodinets" experienced great problems in using 75mm guns, although at first they still actively used this artillery. Then, as damage was sustained and stability deteriorated, the 75mm guns had to be abandoned and their ports were battened down.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 October 2014 16: 45
      +1
      Quote: Krang
      Andrey 1,3kg BB contained our 152mm armor-piercing projectile. But the number of explosives in 305mm shells of sample 1887g and 1907g was the same - 5,3kg.

      Well, how much then do you think the high-explosive Russian 305 mm outfit contained?
      Quote: Krang
      And under Tsushima, Japanese armadillos fired less main-caliber shells than ours.

      More. In fact, we only have data on the Orel, and about 50 main-caliber shells were fired from it. Japanese - on average, more than a hundred per battleship
      Quote: Krang
      There were. Shot at the limit.

      Dear Krang, the limit or not, but only six-inches of the same Mikasa have demonstrated the ability to fight in the excitement of 4-6 points. How much more?
      Quote: Krang
      In the First World War, in the battle of Coronel, the British armored cruisers of the Good Hope class (count one to one with the Japanese Asama-class cruisers) in a little worse weather could no longer shoot from the lower tier medium-caliber artillery.

      We do not know this. Most of the witnesses to this battle died - both on the English and on the German side. Yes, sources routinely write that the guns of the lower tier did not fire, but why? Because you couldn’t? Because they did not notice their fire from other ships? (the weather was disgusting) Because Good Hope went forward for some time, and the Germans were outside the sector of its shelling of airborne guns?
      This is highly false information.
      1. Crang
        13 October 2014 13: 33
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, how much then do you think the high-explosive Russian 305 mm outfit contained?

        The article says how much Andrew.
  15. Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 8 October 2014 15: 46
    0
    Thank!!! And for the article, and for the discussion in the comments!
  16. Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 8 October 2014 16: 05
    +2
    By the way, I don't know why, but outwardly I like our "iron" more than the Japanese one. A simple and harsh ocean warrior. Respect!
  17. Grigorievich
    Grigorievich 8 October 2014 18: 30
    +2
    Intelligent analysis is also very interesting. The argument in the comments at the pro level was read.
  18. bpk572
    bpk572 8 October 2014 18: 40
    +1
    dinkor only rumors cuts ...
  19. Barboskin
    Barboskin 8 October 2014 18: 44
    +3
    I inform the author, not battleships, but armadillos. After the masters of officers were thrown overboard, Oryol had zero chances. In general, with a normal displacement, without overload, with a clean bottom, a car not delayed by a long passage and normal shells (with the proper level of humidity of the explosive), the chances of our Eagle to win are higher than that of the Japanese. For example, the presence of more medium artillery is nullified by one hit. Our shells exploded inside the ship after breaking through the armor. The Japanese had 6 inches in the casemates, therefore with one shell it was possible to cut out half of the servants of most of the artillery from one side. This is just one example.
    1. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 9 October 2014 17: 47
      +1
      Quote: Barboskin
      therefore, with one shell, half the servants of most of the artillery could be mowed from one side

      Why didn’t they mow under Tsushima?
      By the way, one successful shell can sink the ship
      1. Barboskin
        Barboskin 9 October 2014 18: 39
        0
        When the squadron was equipped with ammunition with high humidity explosives. In this regard, the shells did not explode during the battle, to the extent that they pierced Japanese ships through and sank without breaking. Ideally, they were supposed to pierce the side and burst inside the enemy ship. It wasn’t. In principle, there are many reasons for the defeat, but the main reason is the leadership, starting with the owner of the Russian land and ending with Admiral Rozhestvensky.
        1. Crang
          9 October 2014 18: 43
          +2
          Quote: Barboskin
          Ideally, they were supposed to pierce the side and burst inside the enemy ship. It wasn’t.

          It was, but rarely. Not every time. Alone, several of our shells worked exactly as they should. The Japanese did not like it.
      2. Crang
        9 October 2014 18: 42
        +1
        Quote: Pilat2009
        Why didn’t they mow under Tsushima?

        Mowed, why. On Oslyab, the entire medium caliber (it was made roughly similar to the Mikasa and other Japanese ships) was disabled within 20 minutes after the start of the battle. This is despite the fact that cruisers, not battleships, were shooting at him.
        1. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 9 October 2014 19: 54
          0
          Quote: Krang
          incapacitated already 20 minutes after the start of the battle.

          Are we talking about successful hits? Then let's remember Malaya in Jutland, the casemate burned out there too. If the shell hits exactly, 150mm of armor is unlikely to help
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 October 2014 17: 17
          +1
          Quote: Krang
          Mowed, why. On "Oslyab" all medium caliber (it was made approximately similarly to "Mikasa" and other Japanese ships) was disabled within 20 minutes after the start of the battle

          Bastard? The average caliber? Dear Krang, you are confusing something.
  20. askold
    askold 8 October 2014 19: 03
    +5
    Well, what is this song about? And why not immediately, suddenly emerging from the fog, do not inflict "Mikasa", a crushing blow to the jaw ..., oh, forgive me with a ram stem into the side! Ur-ra we won!
    About whether Russia could build armadillos at the level of world powers? Yes, it could.
    About whether it was a modern fleet, technically? Yes, of course.
    About whether we could win the war? Yes, no doubt.
    However, Tsushima, it was that battle, we could only lose, because, as already mentioned, people are not fighting ships, but sailors with combat experience remained in Arthur, and there were no others like that. 1-Pacific Squadron , it was power, and the second is a gamble.
    It’s a shame, we had everything, we had everything, we could all and still lost, aimlessly destroying tens of thousands of lives and military-technical potential (not all of it, of course) for the sake of some distant, not even our (in lease) land. For me, it would be better if they developed their Far East, or even still, almost a solid white spot. Maybe that's why the waltz "On the Hills of Manchuria" leaves us with such a nagging feeling of longing for something irrevocably lost, distant ...
    You shouldn't have taken up fiction, maybe it would be better to look at the projects from a historical point of view with full TTD, booking schemes (and not just a description of artillery), photographs (not two of course) .It is simple and clear to tell about ships and service, without any alternatives there. .Remember "What is the strength, brother? In the truth."
    1. Crang
      9 October 2014 08: 24
      +1
      Quote: askold
      take a look at the projects with full technical specifications, reservation schemes

      Will be in the next part.
  21. korjik
    korjik 8 October 2014 20: 05
    -1
    I think that the Yapis were very unlucky. The speed is almost the same, weapons too. Doinikov was clearly read on ours, right now they will lead Mikasu into the narrowness of the Japanese archipelago, drop mines, and finish off Mikasu diving for pearls. Moreover, most likely he comes with empty coal pits.
  22. I think so
    I think so 9 October 2014 15: 29
    -2
    For all its REAL characteristics, "Eagle" would have lost the battle with "Mikasa" because of the AMMUNITION! On the Russian warships of THAT time there were no projectiles with a blasting explosive, and the projectiles were loaded, ATTENTION! GUNPOWDER! Like the cannonballs under Ivan the Terrible ... "Mikasa" gouging "Eagle" to smithereens, and WITH THE SAME NUMBER OF HITS! So during the battle of Tsushima, the number of HITS IN THE JAPANESE SHIPS was ATTENTION! On the side of RUSSIAN ARTILLERS! Especially in the early stages of the battle! But after the GIANT DESTRUCTIONS AFTER JAPANESE shells hit, almost all artillery pieces and sights were disabled, not to mention the personnel ... Stupid article and not based on ANY OBJECTIVE DATA. You could also try to evaluate the battle of these ships AFTER THE CREATION OF THE EMULATING PROGRAM, but creating such a program is a whole GLOBAL TASK and no one will undertake it for FREE ...
    1. Crang
      9 October 2014 16: 11
      +2
      Crazy. I especially liked this:
      Quote: I think so
      So during the Tsushima battle, the number of MISSIONS TO JAPANESE SHIPS was ATTENTION! On the side of the Russian artillery!

      No - just crazy.
    2. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 9 October 2014 17: 59
      0
      Quote: Krang
      No - just crazy.

      Well, not really, not really.
      Quote: I think so
      ATTENTION! On the side of the Russian artillery! Especially at the initial stage of the battle!

      I have mastered a quantity of literature
  23. Litvin from Grodno
    Litvin from Grodno 9 October 2014 21: 22
    -1
    Quote: ATATA
    Such battles can be modeled when there were no real battles between the indicated ships.
    In this case, the battle was and it ended in defeat, so the second part is interesting, only from the point of view of an alternative history, but not as a technical analysis.

    You know, dear, on the occasion of Tsushima "copies" of military historians and ordinary people are broken more than in the "Battle of Grunval". Everything is clear that Russia de facto lost the Russo-Japanese War, like the Battle of Tsushima. Likewise, it is clear that Japan, "incited" by the Jewish-oligarchic (industrial, trade and financial) circles of England and the United States, and armed to the teeth with the most modern weapons, won it. She won "on credit" - she used everything she used "on credit" (that is, without paying for military property and equipment for its production) - machines at factories in Japan, warships of her squadrons, cartridges and arisaki barrels, etc. The purpose of such generosity on the part of England and the United States was one - TOTAL DISPOSAL AND FORWARDING RUSSIAN TRADE CONCESSIONS FROM THE EAST ASIAN MARKET FROM THE ALREADY POSITIONS. As you can see, nothing new - just a war for economic interests. I am writing this for what. And to the fact that the most advanced weapons in the world at that time were supplied to Japan, and not such rubbish as the pro-British regimes and rulers of the colonial countries: to India, to Africa, to Asia, to Austria. That's why the Japs rolled us out in Tsushima and Port Arthur. We were not helped, as in the Crimean campaign, even "our friendly U-R-A ...", "the bullet is a fool - the bayonet is great," "hard in training, easy in battle," etc. PLUS you need "hands" to arms. English teachers trained "macaques" to operate complex equipment and weapons.
    PLUS tough Japanese Asian discipline on the verge of fanaticism in front of the emperor, and "ours is on the verge of Russian funk ..ism."
    PLUS "the incomprehensible war in our Russian society is somewhere far, far away." The enemy did not attack our territory.
    PLUS "the fifth column" in Russian society, which will have its say in 1905-1907.
    That is why we "pros..li" the Russo-Japanese War, both technically and morally.
    This battle of Mikasa with the Borodino class would, in my opinion, lead to the death of our battleship in 95%, which was inferior to the Japanese in technical terms (albeit a little), in the professionalism of the crew and morale (very much). Eagle could only be saved by a miracle in the form of a shell hitting the Mikasa's armored deck as a result of a successful shot. Approximately as the world's best battleship "Bismarck" did not torment "Hood" for a long time - immediately "vieb ... l under the armored deck" and amen.
    To test the opinion of the respected authors of the article, one could turn to Savage and Heineman for a "computer simulation" of the battle with Discovery Channel. Like in programs about "animal fights". Let them play Mikasa against the Eagle on the computer ... And we would look from the side.
    1. Crang
      10 October 2014 06: 29
      0
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      Approximately as the world's best battleship "Bismarck" did not torment "Hood" for a long time - immediately "vieb ... l under the armored deck" and amen.

      How about then it happened so that "the best in the world" then fucked ... l some ordinary British battleship?
  24. NEXUS
    NEXUS 10 October 2014 00: 01
    +3
    interesting reading on the one hand ... the author rummaged well, finding those detailed data, and so on ... but this is lyrics ... a question from the same area, let's say, SHIP CONNECTION IN THE HEAD WITH THE FLAGMAN "PETER THE GREAT" WITH AN IMPACT AIRCRAFT CARRIER WE LET'S SAY A FLAGGER, AN AIRLINER CLASS "NIMITZ" ... it would be interesting to read the author and see his flight of imagination and zeal ... but this article is an absolute plus
  25. Litvin from Grodno
    Litvin from Grodno 10 October 2014 22: 37
    0
    Crang, if you are talking about "Bismarck", then in vain make mistakes. This battleship was indeed the best in the world in TOTAL parameters. And he took the last battle in conditions even worse than the Varyag. “Varyag” (without “Koreyets”) had a choice other than surrender and death - there was a chance to break free and leave. And "Bismarck" didn't have it. And notice how the well-trained German gunners, shooting out of eye contact with the target, dealt with the Hood. Provided a "cover" for these "important, arrogant, puffy assholes from the Grandfleet, eating oatmeal and suffering from constipation" from the second volley. Smeared and that's all. And the second horseradish walrus barely carried off his legs, he also got it great, sir, sir. Saved by a stampede.
    The most offensive for the "proud handsome" Bismarck is that he died, in fact, as a result of a blow, as it would be more correct to say - a flea. rudder damage, he would calmly get lost in the ocean, and he would not have to fight an UNEQUAL battle with 2 (TWO) battleships for your information and 2 (TWO) heavy cruisers. Here is what worked on him only from artillery:
    - 380 rounds of caliber 40.6 cm from Rodney
    - 339 shells of 35.6 cm caliber with King George V
    - 527 shells of caliber 20.3 cm from Norfolk
    - 254 shells of caliber 20.3 cm from Dorsetshire
    - 716 rounds of caliber 15.2 cm from Rodney
    - 660 shells of 13.3 cm caliber with King George V
    This, in your opinion, is one ordinary English battleship.
    If the "Bismarck" was serviceable and went one-on-one with any of the other "oatmeal eaters", then I would have done with him, the same as with the "Hood". I have no doubt about that. Even a caliber of 405 mm would not help the relatives. In addition to "caliber", you need a lot of things to win, including "brains", with which the British had serious problems since Jutland.
    And to the German sailors who discovered the Kingstones and still sank their "Bismarak" themselves, despite the false British propaganda, honor and praise.
    And also, at the end, "I'll throw the shit ... on the fan." And tell me, my dear, why is this "glorious, English grandfdite" (they are about themselves) always so panicky afraid of going out to sea of ​​a lonely "Tirpitz"? And on this occasion he did a lot of stupid things that cost the lives of many sailors of the allied convoys. Why are they with their numerous battleships so wed ... or in front of one who survived?
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 11 October 2014 08: 21
      +2
      Quote: Litvin from Grodno
      This battleship is truly a combination of parameters was the best in the world

      Not been, of course.
      Quote: Litvin from Grodno

      “Varyag” (without “Koreyets”) had a choice other than surrender and death - there was a chance to break free and leave.

      Yes, at its main 17 nodes, past the entire Japanese squadron. Of course. However, if the molecules that our cruiser consisted of suddenly began to act in unison instead of the chaotic Brownian motion, then the armchair could fly up and fly off to Pot Arthur or Vladivostok. Physicists say that one such case in the entire history of the existence of the universe is possible. Do you mean IT by chance?
      Quote: Litvin from Grodno
      And notice how the well-trained German gunners, shooting out of eye contact with the target, dealt with the "Hood"

      What other lack of eye contact? The Hood was destroyed from a distance of 16,7 km. Is this, in your opinion, the horizon, or what?
      Quote: Litvin from Grodno
      Provided a "cover" for these "important, arrogant, puffy assholes from the Grandfleet, eating oatmeal and suffering from constipation" from the second volley.

      The first salvo of the Bismarck fell short of Hood. The second is a flight, but Schneider (Bismarck's chief artist) mistakenly considered it a cover. The third volley gave a cover and a possible hit, but most of the sources agree that there was no cover or hit - it was not Bismarck that hit, but Eugen
      But Schneider is confident that he has covered Hood and the Germans switch to firing full volleys. The fourth volley is undershot. Fifth - hit by 1-2 shells and the death of "Hood"
      "Prince of Wells" achieved coverage of "Bismarck" from the fourth salvo and hit the German battleship with three rounds before the death of "Hood". Those. by the time Bismarck reached from 1 to three hits, he himself was hit 3 times. And despite the fact that Bismarck's sailors received a full multi-month course of combat training, and the Prince of Wells did not get close, it was sent into battle almost from shipyards.
      Quote: Litvin from Grodno
      The stampede saved.

      I should have put you on the Prince of Wells bridge instead of Leach. You would teach everyone how to fight with the remaining two guns against the 8 guns of the German battleship.
      Due to malfunctions in the four-gun turrets, the Prince of Wells fired only 55 main caliber rounds during this battle, while Bismarck fired 93. This despite the fact that there were 10 guns on Wells, against 8 on the German battleship.
      Quote: Litvin from Grodno
      A small, antediluvian, primitive penny English biplane with a torpedo and two juvenile pisyuns in an open cockpit.

      Well you and ... sorry, censorship on the site. You would be in the cockpit of this biplane, but on the battleship.
      Quote: Litvin from Grodno
      Here is what worked on it only from artillery:

      And did nafua write the number of shells fired? Maybe you should try to count how much is horrible?
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 11 October 2014 08: 29
        +1
        Quote: Litvin from Grodno
        If the "Bismarck" was in good order and went one-on-one with any of the other "oatmeal eaters", then I would have done with him, the same as with "Hood." I have no doubt about that

        Yes, I have no doubt that you have no doubt. The accidental death of Hood, of course, means that Bismarck could bring down enemy battleships from one shell :)
        Quote: Litvin from Grodno
        In addition to "caliber", you need a lot of things to win, including "brains", with which the British had serious problems since Jutland.

        If someone has problems with their brains here, it’s clearly not the English. And you know even less about Jutland than about Bismarck.
        Quote: Litvin from Grodno
        And the German sailors, who discovered the Kingstones and still sank their "Bismarak", despite the false British propaganda,

        Well, yes, and if the Kingstones had not opened, then the ship would not have sank. Although Müllenheim-Rechberg (or whatever it is, I forget the correct spelling all the time) would read or something - he, unlike you, was personally present at the battleship.
        Quote: Litvin from Grodno
        And also, at the end, "I'll throw the shit ... on the fan"

        Well, in the absence of other abilities ...
        Quote: Litvin from Grodno
        And tell me, my dear, why is this "glorious, English grandfdite" (they are about themselves) always so panicky afraid of going out to sea of ​​a lonely "Tirpitz"?

        laughing Have you tried to study history? :)))
    2. Crang
      13 October 2014 13: 32
      0
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      Crang, if you are talking about "Bismarck", then in vain make mistakes. This battleship was indeed the best in the world in TOTAL parameters.

      He was the best in the world for a very short time. And depending on what parameters are the best in the world.
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      And he took the last battle in conditions even worse than the Varyag.

      It’s not funny for yourself?
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      “Varyag” (without “Koreyets”) had a choice other than surrender and death - there was a chance to break free and leave.

      He had no chance to leave.
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      And notice how the well-trained German gunners, shooting out of eye contact with the target, dealt with the Hood.

      The fatal hit to the Hood was from 14km. Quite visual contact.
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      If it were not for the damage to the steering wheel, he would have quietly lost himself in the ocean, and he would not have had to hold an EQUAL battle with 2 (TWO) battleships and 2 (TWO) heavy cruisers. Here is what worked on it only from artillery:

      At the initial stage of the last battle of "Bismarck" one "Rodney" fired at him. At the same time, all the artillery of the "Bismrak" and its optics, and the radar (except one) were in perfect working order.
  26. Litvin from Grodno
    Litvin from Grodno 12 October 2014 01: 18
    0
    Dear Andrey from Chelyabinsk. Firstly, we did not switch to "you". Keep your distance. I am a colonel tanker. This time. Secondly, "Varyag" was a ship that could really elude any ship from the Urio squadron. The actual speed in the battle at Chemulpo did not differ much from the speed on the measured mile in Philadelphia. Please do not replicate one of the myths invented during the reign of the king-pea. My assertion is based on the memoirs of officers and members of the Varyag machine crew, written in Soviet military literature. Everything was in order with the machines and boilers at the Varyag, and they were not serviced by idiots. The topic of "inconsistency of the move" was artificially far-fetched during the investigation of the deaths of "Varyag" and "Koreyets" by the Admiralty Commission. If you are already such a smart guy, ready to teach others, then you should know that they wanted to bring Rudnev and other senior officers to justice.
    I was interested in the subject of "Varyag" long ago and in detail. I even read the originals of some documents directly related to that battle, kept in the naval archive of Leningrad. After my wife and I got married, it turned out that my wife's great-grandfather's cousin took part in that battle, survived, was in captivity, was awarded, along with other members of the Varyag and Koreyets teams, he marched in St. Petersburg, took part in the official "buffet" at the Tsar-Father in St. Petersburg. He continued his service in the navy, took part until 1916 in the war in the Baltic.
    The family, the wife's relatives, keep the St. George's Crosses, a couple of plates from the service presented to the crew members of the Varyag and Koreyets, and a few other small things. Like this. Therefore, do not teach others, dear "scholar-scribe" and do not "replicate myths."
    “Bismarck” dealt with “Hood” “tough and decisive”. This is also a fact documented, including by the British. To challenge him to you, "the scribe and the Pharisee", just show your own, as it were, to put it softer ... Well, I will not be like you.
    And yet, to a specific question about "Tirpitz", you answered with a purely "Zhidovsky" trick with a question, but it was necessary "in Russian, Slavonic" - a specific answer. Respectfully yours, "Litvin z Garodni".
    Third: I propose to stop further polemics in view of its futility. The sailors "Varyag" and "Bismarck" have eternal memory, and "Huda" too !!!
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 October 2014 17: 44
      +1
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      Firstly, we did not switch to "you". Keep your distance. I am a colonel tanker.

      Sorry, but I can't believe you. I can’t imagine how a tank colonel could speak so derogatoryly about the soldiers who fought during that war. Especially since attacking the latest battleship on a British shelf is a heroic matter
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      secondly, "Varyag" was a ship that could really elude any ship from the Urio squadron. Actual speed in battle at Chemulpo did not differ much from speed on a measured mile in Philadelphia

      I couldn’t, which is confirmed by links to documents from Melnikov.
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      If you are already such a wise guy, ready to teach others, you should know that Rudnev and other senior officers wanted to be brought to justice.

      And when? :))) Can you tell me the date? :))
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      Therefore, do not teach others, dear "scholar-scribe" and do not "replicate myths."

      You see, there is a whole group of people who have studied the Varyag issue very closely, and have worked it out much better than
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      Even read the originals of some documents

      Therefore, I will not blame you for dishonesty, but simply ask you to report those documents, the reading of which made you think that Varyag turned out to be all right with speed. At the same time, it would be nice to tell how the Varangian could have avoided destruction, even if he developed 23-24-25 nodes in full swing :))
      Just a request - give without the Geogiev crosses, plates and arguments Chornovil / Abakus.
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      Bismarck “dealt with“ Hood ”“ harshly and decisively. ”This is also a fact documented, including by the British. To challenge him to you, the“ scribe and Pharisee, ”just show your own, as it were, to put it mildly ...

      Anyway, I understand the level of your knowledge, therefore your opinion about my person can’t hurt me either - by definition :) I’ll only note that NO factology has come from you. Some common words with an overabundance of adjectives.
      That "Hood" died by accident, and, most likely, from a defective German shell, that "PRins of Wells" gave about the same percentage of hits in this battle as Bismarck. You don't know anything. It remains to sprinkle with loud words
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      And yet, to a specific question about "Tirpitz", you answered with a purely "Zhidovsky" trick with a question, but it was necessary "in Russian, Slavonic" - a specific answer.

      Osspadya ... "purely zhydovskaya" :))))) My dear, for those who are in the tank, I give you an explanation - I gave you the answers to those questions that I thought it necessary to give. I could have given about Tirpitz, but only for this I would have had to write a couple more full comments. Isn't there a lot of time for such an "expert" as you?
  27. Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 12 October 2014 12: 25
    +2
    Dear Litvin, even if the speed corresponded to that stated on a winding, shallow fairway, only kamikazes would keep it
    And taking into account losses in artillery and personnel, further advancement became meaningless. For the smaller the distance, the more accurate was the fire of the Japanese. All this was discussed in detail at the Tsushima forum
  28. Litvin from Grodno
    Litvin from Grodno 13 October 2014 00: 28
    -3
    Quote: Pilat2009
    Dear Litvin, even if the speed corresponded to that stated on a winding, shallow fairway, only kamikazes would keep it
    And taking into account losses in artillery and personnel, further advancement became meaningless. For the smaller the distance, the more accurate was the fire of the Japanese. All this was discussed in detail at the Tsushima forum
    .
    You are partly right. But the battle could have been built on another. For example (and 2 junior officers of the Varyag voiced it) - go to sea and, taking advantage of the superiority in the course of about 4 knots (at that time it was a lot), go for a breakthrough, in spite of enemy fire. The chances were very high, only an accident in the form of hitting a car or boilers could stop the Varyag's breakthrough. The "Korean" was not taken into account in this case, he would have remained quietly in the port and was interned, as a combat unit, this old ship had practically no value, and neither did its long-range artillery. His destiny is sailing in the mouth of the Amur. In case of a successful breakthrough, the Varyag would have joined the Arthur squadron and would have been very useful during the war. In case of failure, the ship would either have died in battle at sea (as in the famous song "Varyag" written by an Austrian), or would have returned back to the port (as it happened). Of course, with the heroic death of the ship at sea, the crew would have died almost all, knowing the Asian cruelty of the half-dumb Japanese, there is no doubt about it. They would definitely not take prisoners, given the anger at the loss of the "jackpot" in the form of a first-class modern cruiser.
    In general, it is a pity, of course, that the Varyag lies on a "shallow bottom" near Scotland. Russia needs to raise and complete it - after all, it is a symbol not only of the Russian fleet, it is one of the symbols of Russia itself and its heroes. It's not that much money to restore such a small ship anew, especially since all the technical documentation is there. "He will put his hat on the people", who can do as much as he can, who can buy a dollar, who can throw five, who will throw a hundred, and here is the money for raising and building the Varyag. My wife and I, too, will put in a "hat" without any hesitation. From a technical point of view, reviving the Varyag is easy. You can not even keep it in the water, like the Aurora, but install it on the shore - the value of the ship will not diminish from this.
    1. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 13 October 2014 13: 28
      0
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      could only an accident in the form of getting into a car or boilers

      By the way, there was such a moment on the battle plan when the ship went off to the side and even allegedly touched the bottom of the stones
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 October 2014 17: 47
      +4
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      For example (and 2 junior officers of the "Varyag" voiced it) - go to sea and, taking advantage of the superiority in the course of about 4 knots (at that time it was a lot), go for a breakthrough,

      Oh bliiiin laughing
      Have you ever looked at the map of the place where the fight unfolded? !! Which one is at sea? How?!! Past the entire Uriu squadron?
  29. Litvin from Grodno
    Litvin from Grodno 15 October 2014 21: 14
    0
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk, I beg you not to run into a "misunderstanding". Leave your didactic tone for your children. Unlike about you, I held in my hands and read some archival primary sources directly related to that glorious battle (in Leningrad in 1984, you can go there to familiarize yourself with the primary sources). And I was interested in the "topic" in detail when there was still no Internet and shitty clever people who know "everything and everyone" (yeah, according to the cards from "Belomorkanal" cigarettes). So I will repeat "for those who are on an armored train" that according to the variant of a breakthrough without "Koreyets", the "trench" to leave the "Varyag" was 10 times more. The fact that a squadron was at sea does not mean anything. The Japanese macaques still had a lot to do to win, and if, for example, it had not been for "Mr. Chance" in the form of getting into systems vital for the ship's progress, then x ... they would have ... had their Mikado. And the urio would have stabbed himself with a knife, or what they open their stomachs with, idiots. "To tear the navel", proving the obvious, I'm not going to anyone, so I close the topic.
    P.S. And the words "... For the Motherland in the open sea we will die,
    Where the yellow-faced devils are waiting! ... "It is necessary to return to the song, away from all the liberal rubbish that all this" Western and Eastern "democratic" riffraff "stuffs us with. ASIAN TICE ATTACKED THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE, that is, at that time on our common state! And therefore the song should sound as written, including during official visits of RUSSIAN ships to the ports of Japan. Let the Asians experience a "guilt complex", to be smarter for the future.
    Oh about "Hood", yes "x .. (d) with him", the British got what they had to get sooner or later. It was already the sunset of this s ... th ve-li-ko-bri-ta-nii, which for us has always been enemy No. 1, but only unlike the Germans, she raked the heat with someone else's hands, then she killed Paul 1, then organized the war, then Russian-Turkish wars (all), then sponsored Jews-socialists to organize the revolution of 1917, then sponsored Hitler from 1929 to attack the USSR, then organized the "cold war", then together with the United States, Gorbachev's "dove of peace" nursed. And you are making our kind of allies out of them! They have never been and never will be our allies, these Englishmen.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2014 17: 55
      +2
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      Andrey from Chelyabinsk, I beg you not to run into a "misunderstanding".

      In my opinion, I have already run into a misunderstanding.
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      Unlike about you, I held in my hands and read some archival primary sources that are directly related to that glorious battle (in Leningrad in 1984, you can also go there to get acquainted with the primary sources)

      Firstly, I lived in St. Petersburg for 2 years. Secondly, the sources do not need to be held in hand. They need to be read. And now I repeat my question - which archival documents made you think that the Varyag did not have a problem with speed, you are our archival documents. And if you continue, instead of naming the document (I don’t ask about the details, but at least the name) you will boast that you were holding something in your hands, I will accuse you of lying. What kind of manners - instead of giving a direct answer "here and there it was said that on such and such a date the Varyag showed twenty-three-knot speed during the race" - a lot of words about crosses, plates and archival documents, but on the topic - no gu-gu.
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      So I will repeat "for those who are on an armored train" that according to the option of a breakthrough without "Koreyets", the "trench" to leave the "Varyag" was 10 times more

      No need to repeat. It is necessary to refer to documents confirming your point of view.
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      "To tear the navel", proving the obvious, I'm not going to anyone

      Naturally laughing Evidence is not your diocese.
      Quote: Lytvyn from Grodno
      And you are making some of our allies of them!

      I do not make allies from the British. I write that the Prince of Wells showed accuracy equal to Bismarck :))) The difference is, of course, not visible to you
  30. Litvin from Grodno
    Litvin from Grodno 16 October 2014 00: 20
    -1
    Quote: Litvin from Grodno
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk, I beg you not to run into a "misunderstanding". Leave your didactic tone for your children. Unlike about you, I held in my hands and read some archival primary sources directly related to that glorious battle (in Leningrad in 1984, you can go there to familiarize yourself with the primary sources). And I was interested in the "topic" in detail when there was still no Internet and shitty clever people who know "everything and everyone" (yeah, according to the cards from "Belomorkanal" cigarettes). So I will repeat "for those who are on an armored train" that according to the variant of a breakthrough without "Koreyets", the "trench" to leave the "Varyag" was 10 times more. The fact that a squadron was at sea does not mean anything. The Japanese macaques still had a lot to do to win, and if, for example, it had not been for "Mr. Chance" in the form of getting into systems vital for the ship's progress, then x ... they would have ... had their Mikado. And the urio would have stabbed himself with a knife, or what they open their stomachs with, idiots. "To tear the navel", proving the obvious, I'm not going to anyone, so I close the topic.
    P.S. And the words "... For the Motherland in the open sea we will die,
    Where the yellow-faced devils are waiting! ... "It is necessary to return to the song, away from all the liberal rubbish that all this" Western and Eastern "democratic" riffraff "stuffs us with. ASIAN TICE ATTACKED THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE, that is, at that time on our common state! And therefore the song should sound as written, including during official visits of RUSSIAN ships to the ports of Japan. Let the Asians experience a "guilt complex", to be smarter for the future.
    Oh about "Hood", yes "x .. (d) with him", the British got what they had to get sooner or later. It was already the sunset of this s ... th ve-li-ko-bri-ta-nii, which for us has always been enemy No. 1, but only unlike the Germans, she raked the heat with someone else's hands, then she killed Paul 1, then organized the war, then Russian-Turkish wars (all), then sponsored Jews-socialists to organize the revolution of 1917, then sponsored Hitler from 1929 to attack the USSR, then organized the "cold war", then together with the United States, Gorbachev's "dove of peace" nursed. And you are making our kind of allies out of them! They have never been and never will be our allies, these Englishmen.

    I ask the site staff to remove this text, as a "wider version" has appeared. By the way, why can't you delete or edit previously written comments? This is possible on other sites. Or I don’t know how. Enlighten, please.
  31. Litvin from Grodno
    Litvin from Grodno 16 October 2014 00: 26
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Sorry, but I can't believe you. I can’t imagine how a tank colonel could speak so derogatoryly about the soldiers who fought during that war. Especially since attacking the latest battleship on a British shelf is a heroic matter

    Somehow I didn't notice the text right away. But I will try to answer you briefly. For their "heroic deed of attacking a battleship on a sled with a motor and two wings" (but from a purely human point of view, "without taking into account nationality, citizenship, faith, skin color, etc." they are really heroes). But you need to look at the whole picture at once without dividing into fragments. So, if you look as a whole, they got into the cockpit of this crap thanks to their government (Churchill, Chamberlain and American "associates", as well as the Jewish-Algarchic financial circles of the British Empire and the United States), who en masse, first financially nourished, and then brought to the power of Hitler (with the aim of "removing the USSR from the map" of the world - a long-standing goal of the Anglo-Saxons). The fact that he first bit off first one of the nursing hands (France) and wanted to bite off the second - England, this is already the second time - the Furr began to "play his party" (as well as the Bolsheviks after 1917, when they came to power on the money of the same Anglo-American bankers ). Therefore, for us that these (Anglo-Americans) and those (Germans) are the same enemies - in the tragedy of the peoples of the USSR - on June 22, 1941, they are to blame for EVERYTHING and equally. Hence the attitude towards them. Oh about "Hood", yes "x .. (d) with him", the British got what they had to get sooner or later. It was already the sunset of this s ... th ve-li-ko-bri-ta-nii, which for us has always been enemy number 1, but only unlike the Germans, she raked the heat with someone else's hands, then she killed Paul 1, then the Crimean organized the war, then Russian-Turkish wars (all), then sponsored Jews-socialists to organize the revolution of 1917, then sponsored Hitler from 1929 to attack the USSR, then organized the "cold war", then together with the United States, Gorbachev's "dove of peace" nursed. And you are making such our allies out of them! Yes, they have never been our allies and will never be, these "miserable porridge eaters" who killed about 40 million people in the colonial wars in India alone, as well as directly involved in the extermination of more than 100 million of the population of the American continent, as well as Africa, Australia where this "parasite stuck its trunk".
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    I couldn’t, which is confirmed by links to documents from Melnikov.
    ... He could, according to the officers and machine crew of the Varyag, interviewed in detail after returning to Russia. Look in St. Petersburg in the naval archive. I saw some of them in Leningrad in 1984.
  32. Litvin from Grodno
    Litvin from Grodno 16 October 2014 00: 29
    0
    Continued:
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And when? :))) Can you tell me the date? :))
    Read in the research about the "Varyag". If you are talking about the date of the trial, then it was not, I wrote "they wanted to prosecute", and this is a huge difference. Rudnev V.F. (in my deep conviction from UNFair accusations) just the "great military leaders who valiantly screwed up" the beginning of the war Alekseev and Stark, who did not want to hang on themselves another big "splash".
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    You see, there is a whole group of people who have studied the Varyag issue very closely, and have worked it out much better than
    Rather than me, you wanted to say it. Then, rather than you ... if you like.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Therefore, I will not blame you for dishonesty, but simply ask you to report those documents, the reading of which made you think that Varyag turned out to be all right with speed. At the same time, it would be nice to tell how the Varangian could have avoided destruction, even if he developed 23-24-25 nodes in full swing :))
    Only a request - let’s do without Geogiev’s crosses, plates and arguments
    ... Look in the same place as point 2, if you want to go to St. Petersburg and rummage through the primary sources. Good luck. I was there 30 years ago. I did not write about 23 nodes, it says differently. About "artifacts" - these things are actually in Volyn (from where most of the junior ranks of the "Varyag" were called up), in the city of Lutsk, with the wife's relatives. You can go all the way from Chelyabinsk and touch it with your hands. Considering the "brotherly love and genuine interest" in the Russians-yam from the residents of Western Ukraine, the interest in your person will be huge. The journey promises to be very exciting for you. laughing Yes, if we draw a historical parallel, it turns out that Russia owes the feat of the "Varyag" to the Bandera people, since the residents of the so-called Galicia had anti-Russian sentiments there long before 1904.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2014 17: 58
      +1
      Well, some specifics finally went :)))
      Unfortunately, I can only answer tomorrow.
  33. Litvin from Grodno
    Litvin from Grodno 16 October 2014 00: 32
    0
    Continued:
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Anyway, I understand the level of your knowledge, therefore your opinion about my person can’t hurt me either - by definition :) I’ll only note that NO factology has come from you. Some common words with an overabundance of adjectives.
    That "Hood" died by accident, and, most likely, from a defective German shell, that "PRins of Wells" gave about the same percentage of hits in this battle as Bismarck. You don't know anything. It remains to sprinkle with loud words
    As well as the level of your knowledge. You, forgive me, who were listed on "U-e-l-s-e": in the engine crew, in the hold, in the cruise chamber, they were "quickie", or maybe on the rangefinder, or maybe they brought "kava to their nobles", and stood with a notepad in the conning tower "wrote down what specific Bismarck projectile hit, what it did, was it serviceable or" defective "(tell me the secret of your observations)" drowned the English foe weighing about 45 thousand tons "(of course by accident) You know how they say in the army: "If by chance my grandmother had x ... she would be a grandfather!"
  34. Litvin from Grodno
    Litvin from Grodno 16 October 2014 00: 34
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    My dear, for those who are in the tank, I give an explanation - I gave you the answers to the questions that I thought it necessary to give. I could have given about Tirpitz, but only for this I would have had to write a couple more full comments. Isn't there a lot of time for such an "expert" as you?
    Well then, for those on the train. You may or may not write, that's your business. The historical fact is that both ours and the British were terrified of the raider's exit from their fjords in Norway. It is written about this in many books, both ours and theirs. Another thing is that the Germans, who suffered from the Bismarck complex, themselves were afraid to go to sea, in fact, alone. This is also true. It turns out that both sides were "afraid of each other". From the point of view of military analysis, the simple truth is once again confirmed that one in the field is not a warrior. To counteract, you need about the same strength as the enemy. And the Germans had only 2 normal battleships, the rest was "so-so".
    IN THE END I WILL REPEAT that according to the breakthrough option without “Koreyets” the “trench” to leave the “Varyag” was 10 times more. And, mind you, this scenario of events has GOT THE RIGHT TO LIFE, long before you and I were born, even under Tsar-Father, in the minds of Russian naval officers and sailors, who were far from all such mediocrity and fools as Alekseev, Stark, Stesel, Kuropatkin and with them. The fact that a squadron was at sea does not mean anything. The Japanese macaques still had a lot to do to win, and if, for example, it were not for "Mr. Chance" in the form of hitting systems vital for the ship's progress, then x ... they would have ... had their Mikado. And the urio would have stabbed himself with a knife, or what they open their stomachs with, assholes. "To tear the navel", proving the obvious, I'm not going to anyone, THEREFORE I FINALLY CLOSE THE TOPIC.
    P.S. And the words "... For the Motherland in the open sea we will die,
    Where the yellow-faced devils are waiting! ... "In the song you need to return. Away with all the liberal rubbish that all this" Western democratic rag "stuffs us with. EMPIRE, ie FOR THAT TIME for our common state! And therefore the song should sound as it was written, including during official visits of RUSSIAN ships to the ports of Japan. Let the Asians experience the "guilt complex" so that they are smarter for the future ...
    Sincerely, Litsvin!
  35. Prager
    Prager 2 November 2014 16: 42
    0
    A blessed memory to all Russian soldiers and sailors who died in that war!