Military Review

Crimea is the same center of old Russian statehood as Kiev and Novgorod

51
Crimea is the same center of old Russian statehood as Kiev and Novgorod



And no people "Crimean Tatars" simply does not exist

Vladimir Putin said that he signed a decree on the rehabilitation of the peoples of Crimea who suffered during the Stalinist repressions. “I signed a decree on the rehabilitation of the Crimean-Tatar population of the Crimea, the Armenian population, the Germans, the Greeks — all those who suffered during the Stalinist repression,” he said.

It is clear that Russia’s desire to protect itself for the future from the problem of the Crimean Tatars. Only to solve it by assigning them the status of "indigenous people of Crimea" is unproductive.

For at least three reasons.

Firstly, because the very fixing of the name “Crimean Tatars” behind them was already one of the problems associated with them, and it was the linguistic convention of their time that did not reflect objective reality.

Secondly, because in fact it is not even about one ethnos, but about several, with different destinies and different ethno and cultural genesis.

Thirdly, because they have never been the indigenous people of Crimea.

The name "Crimean Tatars" as such appears after the reunification of the Crimea with Russia in the last quarter of the XVIII century. And it meant only one thing: "Crimean Muslims." Because then in Russia in general, all Muslims were called Tatars, without investing anything offensive in that word.

True, the Tatars, the troops of the Crimean Khanate, who had raided the Muscovite state, were also called in previous centuries - for the same reason, in general. And partly justified, bearing in mind the historical and political continuity of the Crimean Khanate with the Golden Horde.

In this regard, as a branch of the Tatar-Mongol invasion, it was the Khan's army that could be considered Tatars, and the Crimea was perceived as a “Tatar kingdom”, similar to the Kazan kingdom, and caused certain emotions. But with those who inhabited the Crimea at that time, Russia, as a rule, did not encounter and knew little about who inhabits it.

And when Crimea was reunited with Russia, all its Muslim inhabitants were called that. Although even Islam they professed at different times - from 10-20 to 400 years.

Tatars (that is, those who could be called Tatars) who came to the Crimea during the Tatar-Mongol invasion - this is almost the latest wave of ethnic migration to the Crimea, which never formed the basis and most of its population.

Once there lived the Taurus and Cimmerians. Then the western part was settled by the Scythians, the eastern part - those who can be called "Meotians"; geographically it was one of the peoples of the future Russia, who inhabited Taman, Kuban and Don. But that was a long time ago.

True, let's say, Lomonosov considered the Bospor kingdom inhabited by them to be the source of Russian statehood.

Later, approximately in the 2nd-4th centuries of our era, the so-called Chernyakhov archeological culture, which Academician Rybakov considered as one of the first Slavic cultures on the territory of Russia, was spread in Crimea. Within this interpretation, the Chernyakhov culture is a kind of “culture of the Hellenized Slavs”, which became the basis of their future statehood and historical and cultural elevation.

In the 4th century, the Goths, that is, the Germans, being forced out of the Black Sea region by the Huns. Their state in the mountains of Crimea existed almost until the XV century and was defeated by the Turkish invasions.

Since ancient Greece and Rome, and then Byzantium, the coast of Crimea was inhabited by Greeks. Then, in the XIV-XV centuries, the Genoese, that is, the Italians inhabit the southern coast.

Each of these peoples — Germans, Greeks, and Italians — had much more reason to be considered the indigenous people of the Crimea than the Tatars who got there the later. Although they were not indigenous to the Crimea.

In the 5th century there were Turks here. In the VII century - the Bulgarians. In the 8th century, the Byzantines divided Crimea (that is, at this moment the Greek-Slavs) and the Khazars. By the end of the 8th century, the Ruses (future Russians), led by Prince Bvrann, came to the eastern Khazar part of the Crimea. They took Surozh and baptized there two hundred years before Vladimir.

At the beginning of the 10th century, the struggle of the Rus and Khazars took place here. In the tenth century, Oleg and Svyatoslav defeat the Khazars, and in the Crimea the Russian Tmutarakan principality, which is then part of Kievan Rus, emerges. That is, the Crimea, in fact, is the same hotbed of Old Russian statehood, like Kiev and Novgorod.

In the XII century, the Polovtsi appear here, at the beginning of the XIII century, they are still fighting with the Russians against the first Turkish landing, and in 1223, the Tatar-Mongols invade here, and the steppe Crimea becomes the Horde ulus. In the XIV century, the Genoese settled the southern coast, and then invades, trying to free the Crimea from the Tatars, the Russian-Lithuanian army of Vitovt. And in 1399, the Tatars Edigei destroy the last stronghold of the ancient world - Chersonese.

With the Ottoman conquest of Byzantium, their troops repeatedly invade the Crimea - and the Tatar khans conclude an alliance with them, becoming vassals of Istanbul ...

Where can I see the Tatars as the indigenous population of the Crimea? You can think of this only in the framework of political speculation. Anyone - but not they.

They then came to the Crimea as conquerors and destroyers. And even after the conquest, they did not constitute the bulk of the population of the Crimea. Relying on the previous, in particular, ancient Russian culture, they created their own, and for that time not the most primitive civilization. But they always remained a minority in their state. It was a state that somehow resembled the English colonies or South Africa of the second half of the twentieth century: the dominant Islamic ethnic minority and the enslaved Orthodox majority.

For the Crimea, they were something of a moor for Spain. And as Queen Isabella carried her vows until the country's complete liberation from the conquerors and the liberation of Grenada, so Russia has fought for centuries trying to liberate its ancient territory.

The Spanish managed to liberate Grenada on 400 years before Russia liberated the Crimea. But the Moors came to the Pyrenees in the VIII century, the Tatars in the Crimea - in the XIII century. The Moors have been there for 800 years, but no one intends to declare them the indigenous people of Spain. Tatars, if we take from the complete conquest of the Crimea by them, - 400 years, if from the first invasion - 600. And they are trying to declare them an indigenous people, although I repeat once again: they never made up the majority of the population of Crimea.

In the middle of the XVII century, the Khans carried out a census of the population. According to these data, the population of the Crimea was 1,1 million people. Tatars among them were 180 000, 920 000 people were designated as "Orthodox". They were different - the descendants of the Greeks and Genoese, Armenians, Goths, but most were prisoners, slaves and remnants of the Russian population, as well as immigrants from the territory of the former Kievan Rus.

That is, the Tatars were a little more than the current - about 16%. But they were the masters who had enslaved the Crimea — nobles, warriors, slave owners who forced the indigenous (largely Slavic) population of Crimea to work for themselves.

Another thing is that those who after the reunification were called the Crimean Tatars did not belong to them. In the conditions of the Russian-Turkish wars and the retreat of Turkey by the second half of the 18th century, the policy of evicting Orthodox from the territory of the Crimea began to be pursued in the Crimea, as the authorities at that time were afraid that Russia would be able to rely on them when the Crimea was liberated. And the indigenous Orthodox population of Crimea was forced to either leave it or convert to Islam in order to remain in their homeland.

By the time when Crimea was liberated, those who, according to the principle of religion, were called the Crimean Tatars, could only be called steppe-nogai. The second part - the inhabitants of the mountainous Crimea - were descendants of the Germans, although it was difficult to discern the Germans in them, of course. Third - the inhabitants of the coast - were descendants of the Greeks and Italians (the so-called South Coast - Yaylyboi).

Therefore, if we talk about recovery historical justice, it would be necessary first of all to recognize that the people of the "Crimean Tatars" simply do not exist.

And that there are at least three different nations, each of which played a different role in history and has the right to restore its historical name, historical culture and awaken its national identity, most of which they were deprived of precisely the Mongol-Tatar and Turkish invasions, their domination and violent Islamization.

That the Greeks and Italians remember that they are Greeks and Italians. Goths - that they are goths, people of ancient legends. And so the Tatars did not forget that they are really Tatars, who came to the Crimea after all other nations.

Each of them played a role. But no one has the right to claim for himself the name "indigenous people of Crimea".
Author:
Originator:
http://www.km.ru/v-rossii/2014/04/21/situatsiya-vokrug-kryma/737955-krym-takoi-zhe-ochag-drevnerusskoi-gosudarstvenno
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  1. Terrible ensign
    Terrible ensign April 23 2014 08: 33
    +4
    Competently and entirely in line with historical science. Only the author, carried away by the survey, historical part, did not develop the thesis about the need for rehabilitation of the Crimean Tatars. And this must be done. Yes, the history of Crimean Tatars dates back to the time of the Golden Horde. But the repression that this people was subjected to took place in the twentieth century, in our memory. and yet, where is the period from which we can talk about the rooting of an ethnic group in a certain territory? (100, 200 or 300 years ...) So far, everything seems to be going right. And this process launched by the Presidential Decree, its implementation in practice will depend not only on the position of the authorities, but also on the Tatars actually living in the Crimea. Let's look at this balancer ...
    1. Good cat
      Good cat April 23 2014 09: 45
      +2
      Actually, the article began with this: "Vladimir Putin announced that he signed a decree on the rehabilitation of the Crimean peoples who suffered during the Stalinist repressions." I signed a decree on the rehabilitation of the Crimean Tatar population of Crimea, the Armenian population, Germans, Greeks - everyone who suffered during the time of Stalinist repressions, "he said."
      1. vladimirZ
        vladimirZ April 23 2014 13: 19
        +6
        ... on the rehabilitation of the Crimean Tatars who suffered during the Stalinist repressions ...


        Just let us be truthful and honest.
        Rehabilitation yes. But it’s not without fault that the victims of punishment for mass betrayal and struggle on the side of the German fascists.
        It is necessary to be historically fair, to remember what was, including the negative - a betrayal, so that this does not happen again.
        By the way, it must be remembered that Stalin I.V. having expelled the Crimean Tatars from the peninsula, saved them from lynching and retaliatory destruction by the Crimean peoples for the mass killings that the Tatars committed during the Nazi occupation.
        1. cdrt
          cdrt April 23 2014 14: 58
          0
          Quote: vladimirZ
          Just let us be truthful and honest.
          Rehabilitation yes. But it’s not without fault that the victims of punishment for mass betrayal and struggle on the side of the German fascists.
          It is necessary to be historically fair, to remember what was, including the negative - a betrayal, so that this does not happen again.
          By the way, it must be remembered that Stalin I.V. having expelled the Crimean Tatars from the peninsula, saved them from lynching and retaliatory destruction by the Crimean peoples for the mass killings that the Tatars committed during the Nazi occupation.


          Well, it seems like not only Tatars, but also Greeks are rehabilitated in the Decree.

          Hmm ... and for what else in the 20s, the Greeks were exiled from Crimea?
          Also, I suppose, in the "best traditions of revolutionary humanism", they were to blame for something and to avoid lynching in the localities?
          so it turns out?

          Just my ancestors are Greeks from the Crimea.
          The great-grandmother gave the heifer so that the children were recorded by the Ukrainians, then the children were sent to relatives in Lugansk on the 26th, and the great-grandmother and her great-grandfather were gone.
        2. Silhouette
          Silhouette April 23 2014 16: 31
          +4
          Only unjustly convicted persons can be rehabilitated. No one ever condemned the Crimean Tatars by any court or tribunal. They were evicted by decision of the USSR Defense Council when military operations were under way in war conditions. There were good reasons for the eviction. No less compelling than that of the US government regarding 500 ethnic Japanese and their families who have not done anything against the United States and whom no one has ever rehabilitated to this day. Here it is.
          As well as 2 million inhabitants of Prussia.
          1. Terrible ensign
            Terrible ensign April 23 2014 17: 15
            0
            And at that time no one bothered especially with such concepts as law, punishment solely by court decision ... Individuals, communities and peoples are capable of development, who can be critical of themselves, their history and finding the strength and will to recognize their own errors and, moreover, the ability to correct them. The lack of self-criticism in the patient indicates a certain degree of mental illness (the latter is fully correlated with what the United States did and continues to do).
        3. Terrible ensign
          Terrible ensign April 23 2014 17: 07
          0
          I absolutely agree with you. We must remember everything, no matter how difficult it was ...
    2. predator.3
      predator.3 April 23 2014 10: 15
      +12
      “I signed a decree on the rehabilitation of the Crimean Tatar population of Crimea, the Armenian population, Germans, Greeks - all those who suffered during the Stalinist repressions,” he said.


      Of course, Vovan Vovanych politically correctly kept silent for what they were "repressed", let's hope that the Tatars will appreciate it and draw conclusions! what Although the saying "How many wolves do not feed ..." is relevant today! And for the deportation we must thank these "warriors"!
      1. Petergut
        Petergut April 23 2014 13: 32
        +5
        I support your point of view, Comrade Predator Troechka, and completely agree that "repression" should be written in quotation marks.

        From the bell tower of our era, the eviction of an entire nation seems like a wild example of tyranny and almost genocide. However, upon closer examination, everything does not look so obvious.
        During the liberation of the USSR from the Nazis and in the post-war period, the Soviet government was faced with a difficult situation.
        Representatives of a number of peoples and ethnic groups, who made up a significant part of them, including Tatars living in the Crimea peninsula, were included in the chile who crossed the enemy’s side. According to the laws of war, such ghouls were shot, and in the post-war period a long term of imprisonment.
        The thesis of the national liberation war does not channel because firstly, they were citizens of the USSR and recognized the supremacy of Soviet power, and secondly, they were mobilized into the ranks of the Wehrmacht or the SS and obeyed the German command. There is a betrayal of the homeland.
        It would seem simple - bastards to the wall! But it turned out that most of the men and a significant part of women of reproductive age should be put on the wall, and this, most likely, is the departure of such a people from history.
        And a humane decision was made to apply the principle of collective responsibility instead of the principle of individual responsibility. And the people who stained themselves as a state crime were not destroyed, and in order to atone for a significant part of their lives, they were resettled to develop the sparsely populated territories of the state.
        In our time, such a mechanism is new, but in historical projection it is far from a unique model of atonement. Anglo-Saxons are usually peoples opposing them cut out at the root.
        In my opinion, such repressions were completely justified and legal; the state is obliged to protect itself from traitors. Moreover, it was the most humane decision in that situation. The problem is that the fucking maize declared these repressions illegal, which is fundamentally wrong. Atoned for - return home, but remember your crime. And now they seem to have nothing to do with it ...

        You know, it's like sending a brutal killer instead of a tower to chemistry because he has a wife and children, and then letting go and declaring that he is illegally convicted, not guilty of anything, the poor man was tormented and in general he is white and fluffy. And so, no matter how the murderer returns home and begins to bend his fingers and spread rot neighbors.

        I have said everything.
        1. Terrible ensign
          Terrible ensign April 23 2014 17: 17
          0
          But the corn farmer was noted a lot more where, not only in his notorious revelations of the Stalinist period of Russian history ...
      2. cdrt
        cdrt April 23 2014 14: 59
        -1
        Quote: predator.3
        “I signed a decree on the rehabilitation of the Crimean Tatar population of Crimea, the Armenian population, Germans, Greeks - all those who suffered during the Stalinist repressions,” he said.


        Of course, Vovan Vovanych politically correctly kept silent for what they were "repressed", let's hope that the Tatars will appreciate it and draw conclusions! what Although the saying "How many wolves do not feed ..." is relevant today! And for the deportation we must thank these "warriors"!


        According to this logic, if (God forbid, of course) your son kills someone, you need to plant both you and your wife (his mother), and all his brothers, and at the same time grandfathers and grandmothers ...
        Yes, so to plant, so that at least the elderly on the shipment died of starvation
        1. nnz226
          nnz226 April 23 2014 16: 30
          +8
          If, according to the laws of wartime, all traitors to the motherland among the Tatars of the Crimea were shot, then young men (from 17 to 45 years old) simply would not have remained among the Tatars. The elders were offered the option of eviction, but without executions. So they chose. So the humanism of Stalin and Beria is not in doubt. And so who would the Tatar clan continue?
        2. predator.3
          predator.3 April 23 2014 19: 26
          +4
          Quote: cdrt
          According to this logic, if (God forbid, of course) your son kills someone, you need to plant both you and your wife (his mother), and all his brothers, and at the same time grandfathers and grandmothers ...
          Yes, so to plant, so that at least the elderly on the shipment died of starvation

          My grandfather was in captivity, was caught during a raid on the rear of the enemy (112th Bashkir Cavalry Division), he did not hang out in any "Idel-Ural legions", although he was also "persuaded", but went through concentration camps until the winter of 45 not released in eastern Germany, and not sent to Kolyma, but enlisted in the infantry and reached Berlin.
      3. nnz226
        nnz226 April 23 2014 16: 27
        +7
        And there were many such warriors! In 1980 he came to Sevastopol on assignment, at one male "drunkenness" he talked with a front-line soldier who defended Sevastopol to the last and in July 1942 was taken prisoner at Cape Chersonesos. So he said that when the prisoners were collected in columns to drive them to the camps near Simferopol, our soldiers and sailors prayed to God that they were escorted by the Germans (regardless of their attitude towards the weakened prisoners), since from the columns that were escorted by the Tatars-police no one reached the camp (they led the columns of prisoners into the beams under the machine guns and "put" everyone). And when he was released from the camp in April 1944, he was fattened, but he was not sent to the battle for Sevastopol, since they were still weak (but no liberalistic "horrors" about the Stalinist camps). But he had to stand in a cordon of one of the Tatar villages, so as not to scatter around the neighborhood, when the NKVD went door-to-door and gathered residents "to leave with things." And as this man said: "There was no pity!" Then he still managed to fight ...
      4. Terrible ensign
        Terrible ensign April 23 2014 17: 16
        0
        Comrade, Predator point 3! .. Thanks for the photo! And we won’t forget about it either! ..
    3. cdrt
      cdrt April 23 2014 14: 54
      +2
      Just not very competent.
      There is such a concept of ethnogenesis.
      In fact, there are no eternal ethnic groups.
      There are ethnic groups, cultural successors, there is a genetic kinship of people living in certain territories.
      Like us - not the Kiev or Vladimir Slavs of Ancient Russia, but the Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, etc. Yes, our ethnic groups were formed from fragments of the disintegrated people of Ancient Russia. No more, but no less.
      So are the Crimean Tatars. Of course, they came from many ethnic groups. By the way, the question is precisely whether it has developed? But ... if the descendants of the Goths, Greeks, Genoese consider the Crimean Tatar culture their own, they are Crimean Tatars. Now, if they don’t consider it, then you can’t talk about the established people.
      And the comparison itself - how many people live where - is unproductive.
      So the Mari were subordinate to Russia when and it also turns out that the Russians were conquerors there?
      Or it turns out that the Siberians are not an indigenous people in Siberia, etc.

      And Crimea ... it’s even more complicated there - for example, there are Karaites and Krymchaks. This is generally trash - some Jews are Tolmudists, others - !!! Kabbalists.
      And also, after all, the peoples who have been living there for more than 1000 years.
      1. Terrible ensign
        Terrible ensign April 23 2014 17: 20
        0
        Comrade "kdrt", great respect to you for such a thorough clarification! Thanks!
    4. Silhouette
      Silhouette April 23 2014 16: 09
      +4
      The author very superficially knows the history of the Crimean Tatars. You can say it does not know at all. Stalin made them Crimean Tatars, expelling them from Crimea, which led them to rallying and self-identification. In reality, this people consists of three groups that, even before the revolution, crossed and crossed little.
      The first group is the South Coast. This is a cocktail from the descendants of the Greeks, Italians, Slavs, Turks, who were Muslim by Turkey after the occupation of Crimea. Before deportation, they lived on the southern coast of Crimea, which was never part of the Crimean Khanate, but was a separate vilayet of the Ottoman Empire. Citizens of the Crimean Khan were not allowed to live on the South Coast from Feodosia to Sevastopol.
      The second group is the tats. Mountain Tatars. Or forest. These are the inhabitants of the foothills to the line of the tops of the Crimean mountains. After Crimea became Russian, they scored on the Turkish Sultan and began to slowly interfere with the South Coast.
      And the third group - the legs - the steppes. They lived in the steppe Crimea, practically without mixing with other groups.
      There are many contradictions between these groups in language, culture, and customs. More or less, they began to be overcome in exile and upon returning to the Crimea. Now the Crimean Tatars are united in the people by self-interest, struggle and hope for the privileges of the status of the only indigenous people of the peninsula, as well as the dream of monopoly possession of Crimea. They will never give up on it and will always speculate.
      1. Terrible ensign
        Terrible ensign April 23 2014 17: 22
        0
        But it is necessary to prevent speculation from being brought up. The question is quite subtle. And patience is not unlimited, at least for anyone ...
  2. ism_ek
    ism_ek April 23 2014 08: 41
    +1
    There is a Crimean Tatar language - that means there is a Crimean Tatar people. They have a written language. Kazan Tatars also do not exactly know the history of their origin. They are also not people?
    Regarding percentages ... The Russian population lives in cities on the coast. Crimean Tatars live in the central regions of Crimea. There are 50 ... 60%
    The fact that the central regions of Crimea is a continuous poppy field is no secret to anyone. It is easy to understand why the leadership of the Crimean Tatars is against the strengthening of power in the Crimea.
    1. Stavros
      Stavros April 23 2014 09: 59
      +4
      A separate Crimean Tatar language as such does not exist, their language is Turkic. Yes, and their written language is a mixture of Cyrillic and Latin letters.
    2. alebor
      alebor April 23 2014 11: 00
      +2
      “Therefore, if we talk about the restoration of historical justice at all, it would be necessary first of all to admit that the people themselves“ Crimean Tatars ”simply do not exist.”

      It's funny. People talk about themselves - we are Crimean Tatars, and Sergei Chernyakhovsky answered them: "No, you don't exist."
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. Turkir
      Turkir April 23 2014 14: 27
      +1
      Kazan Tatars also do not exactly know the history of their origin

      Your aplomb is simply amazing. Who does not know their story of their origin?
      Kazan Tatars are Volga Bulgars, some of which have won the Slavic population of today's Bulgaria. Which adopted Christianity from Byzantium and the so-called Church Slavonic language is basically Bulgarian.
      Even the chronology of many chronicles is Bulgarian: 5500 BC, in contrast to the Byzantine 5508 BC
      If you do not know about the origin of the Volga Bulgars, which you call the Kazan Tatars, this is your personal problem, but do not attribute it to the people who have been living with us for a long time, with Russians and know their history well.
      1. rezident
        rezident April 23 2014 21: 08
        +1
        They think differently. Even within the same family of the Tatar family.
  3. CIANIT
    CIANIT April 23 2014 08: 49
    +8
    They were also relocated in the 44th for a reason, because of their significant change over to the side of Germany in comparison with other peoples. 20 thousand they served in the fascist military formations. Moreover, the Crimean Tatars were notable for their brutal cruelty to Soviet prisoners. Any Western country would have long exterminated them, and Russia once again acquires a haemorrhage for its humanity.
    1. cdrt
      cdrt April 23 2014 15: 06
      -5
      Quote: CIANIT
      They were also relocated in the 44th for a reason, because of their significant change over to the side of Germany in comparison with other peoples. 20 thousand they served in the fascist military formations. Moreover, the Crimean Tatars were notable for their brutal cruelty to Soviet prisoners. Any Western country would have long exterminated them, and Russia once again acquires a haemorrhage for its humanity.


      Well, as it were, the Ukrainians, along with the Russians, by the way (from the east of Ukraine), too, in relation to the Belarusians in Khatyn, as though not showing themselves humanists ... and nothing. There were no mass links.
      The truth is apparently that the IVS, as a normal Caucasian bandit, decided not to suffer from the suppression of guerrilla warfare on the one hand, and on the other hand to intimidate other nations who massively sided with the Germans (the same Zapadentsev) - so that it would not be disagreeable.
      And since there were few Tatars as well as Vainakhs - it was possible to do with them absolutely everything that was decided
      1. terrible
        terrible April 23 2014 19: 09
        0
        Quote: cdrt
        Well, as it were, the Ukrainians, along with the Russians, by the way (from the east of Ukraine), too, in relation to the Belarusians in Khatyn, as though not showing themselves humanists ... and nothing. There were no mass links.

        all h.ohlov wagons would not be enough) and Vlasovites so they drove everyone to the camps
      2. Rider
        Rider April 23 2014 22: 02
        0
        Quote: cdrt
        .and nothing. There were no mass links.

        but let's just count.
        about 70 MILLION Soviet citizens turned out to be in the territory occupied by the Germans, (roughly) MILLION people were involved in aiding the enemy (these are the policemen and the commandant’s staff and punishers and Vlasovites, etc.)
        they all made up just over xnumx% from the population of these lands.
        so why on earth was it to repress the entire population?
        but in the case of small but very proud peoples, the percentage of traitors of sabotage evaders, etc., was GORAAAZDO higher.
        and therefore, personal repression would simply leave these peoples without a male population from 16 to 55 years old.
        So the option of collective responsibility was chosen.

        By the way for your education, I advise you to read.

        I. V. Pykhalov FOR WHAT STALIN EXPLAINED PEOPLES?
        http://flibusta.net/b/225910/read#t2


        maybe then the essence of the matter will become clear to you.
        1. cdrt
          cdrt April 24 2014 00: 22
          0
          Quote: Rider
          but in the case of small but very proud peoples, the percentage of traitors of sabotage evaders, etc., was GORAAAZDO higher.


          Well ... maybe the fact is that one group of small nations was conquered by iron and blood just 80 years before, and the other, although they conquered it 160 years before, was clearly treating the Russians as invaders.
          Yes, and if you count not 1 in a million, but count the same zapadentsev to zapadentsev - you get completely different statistics. Well, or Cossacks if you count to their numbers in the Don
          1. Rider
            Rider April 24 2014 09: 53
            +1
            Quote: cdrt
            Well ... maybe the fact is that one group of small nations was conquered by iron and blood just 80 years before, and the other, although they conquered it 160 years before, was clearly treating the Russians as invaders.

            and now what?
            pay and repent, repent and pay?
            such is the story, mon sher.
            if small but very proud peoples will endlessly comb their grievances and, in any case, hit in the back (usually falling on defenseless peaceful people), then very soon these peoples will become even smaller.

            for several centuries they also didn’t come to us with flowers, but we didn’t cut them along the axis of the cart wheel, but we could.
            Isn't it time to live like normal people and not throw the term "occupier" every time?

            Well, for the Cossacks.
            you do not own the question, and judge by various liberal agitation.
            according to them, there were about 50 people with krasnov and von pavnitsa.
            but what met the Cossacks of the Second World War.

            Cavalry divisions

            1st Guards Orders of Lenin, Suvorov II degree, Bogdan Khmelnitsky II degree Red Banner Stavropol Cavalry Division named after M. Blinov.

            3rd Guards Red Banner Order of Suvorov II degree Mozyr cavalry division.

            4th Guards Red Banner Mozyr Cavalry Division.

            6th Guards twice Red Banner Orders of Lenin, Suvorov II degree, Kutuzov II degree Grodno Cavalry Division named after A. Parkhomenko.

            9th Guards twice Red Banner Orders of Suvorov II degree, Bogdan Khmelnitsky II degree, Kutuzov I degree Baranavichy Kuban Cossack Cavalry Division.

            10th Guards Red Banner Orders of Suvorov II degree, Bogdan Khmelnitsky II - I degree, Kutuzov I degree Slutskaya Kuban Cossack Cavalry Division.

            30th Red Banner Orders of Lenin, Suvorov II degree, Kutuzov I degree Novobug cavalry division.

            The 11th Guards Red Banner Order of Bohdan Khmelnytsky, II degree, Volnovakha Don Cossack Cavalry Division.

            12th Guards Red Banner Order of Kutuzov II degree Korsun Don Cossack Cavalry Division.

            63rd Red Banner Korsun Cavalry Division.

            The 8th Guards Red Banner Order of Suvorov, II degree, Rivne Cossack Cavalry Division named after F. Morozov.

            9th Guards twice Red Banner Orders of the Red Star Krasnodar Plastun Division.

            8th Red Banner Far Eastern Debrecen Cavalry Division.

            http://kazakwow.ru/?page_id=69

            and these are only cavalry units.
            as they say "learn materiel"

            Well, with zapadentsmi - yes, they did not finish it.
            thought the world and a good attitude, change the Polish / Austrian sourdough - were mistaken.
            Well, nothing, there’s still time to correct errors.
    2. ahil
      ahil April 23 2014 22: 25
      -2
      The case is certainly interesting. A certain number of Crimean Tatars fought on the side of the Nazis, and all the people-children, women, old people were deported. Vlasov went to the Germans with an army, did anyone hear about the deportation of the families of these people?
      And the Tatars, whether Crimean, Siberian, Kazan are once a single people! What remains.
      “Even at the end of the 18th century, Jan Potocki was a diplomat, and at the same time an outstanding Polish historian, linguist and ethnographer, who traveled to the vast territories of the Russian Empire from Moscow to Astrakhan, wrote that Tatars live in large numbers from Moscow to Central Asia, inclusive. And, most importantly, in spite of the variety in appearance, - noted Jan Potocki, - the Tatars of Europe and Asia "speak the same adverb" - that is, in one language - "and they all consider themselves to be real Tatars of Genghis Khan." Pototsky also reported that in those days the Tatars and their countrymen did not forget the basic commandments-principles of their Great Ancestor and fellow tribesman: “but tolerance made on me, which, perhaps, is extremely difficult to find elsewhere on Earth the ball. " Accordingly, together with the recognition of their belonging to the native people of Chyngyz Khan, the Tatars also never forgot the primordially Horde principles of ethnic and racial tolerance inherent in ancient times. ”
      1. cdrt
        cdrt April 24 2014 00: 23
        0
        Quote: ahil
        And the Tatars, whether Crimean, Siberian, Kazan are once a single people! What remains.


        For example, you don’t say this to the Kazan Tatars — they will laugh (well ... of course, those who know their history)
      2. Mstislav
        Mstislav April 25 2014 23: 54
        0
        And have you heard, my dear, what "members of the family of an enemy of the people are? They were evicted, starting from the 30s (collectivization), they were so settled that practically nothing remained of the Russian countryside ..."
  4. Kuvabatake
    Kuvabatake April 23 2014 09: 08
    +4
    Yes, the issue of rehabilitation is very slippery ... Here it is necessary to monitor the consequences. No matter how it happened in the Middle Ages. I bought indulgence - everything is cleared, you can sin on a new one. recourse
  5. lukke
    lukke April 23 2014 09: 25
    +2
    Towards the end of the XNUMXth century, Russes (future Russians) came to the eastern Khazar part of Crimea, headed by Prince Bralin, who took Surozh and accepted there - two hundred years earlier than Vladimir - baptism
    To my shame did not know
  6. terrible
    terrible April 23 2014 09: 25
    +2
    and about the Principality of Tmutarakan Che silent? Russians before the Tatars came to Crimea!
    1. Svetlana
      Svetlana April 23 2014 13: 26
      +3
      Crimea, Taman Peninsula, where Tmutarakan was located, all this was part of Great Scythia - our ancestral home.
      http://topwar.ru/13258-velikaya-skifiya-i-superetnos-rusov-ch-1.html
  7. veteran56
    veteran56 April 23 2014 09: 29
    +1
    Historically informative article.
  8. Wolland
    Wolland April 23 2014 10: 23
    +6
    who controls the Crimea, that controls the Black Sea ..... it is not said by me, time-tested.
    1. rezident
      rezident April 23 2014 21: 08
      +1
      Straits and not the peninsula.
  9. Gardamir
    Gardamir April 23 2014 10: 41
    +6
    And who are the Crimean Tatars? For example, I am Vyatka Russian, What a nonsense to call people by locality.
    Of course, I have good memories of the USSR. But sometimes the Bolsheviks clearly went too far. How many peoples they created, Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, Kazakhs. These peoples before the revolution did not exist.
    1. cdrt
      cdrt April 23 2014 15: 08
      +3
      Quote: Gardamir
      And who are the Crimean Tatars? For example, I am Vyatka Russian, What a nonsense to call people by locality.
      Of course, I have good memories of the USSR. But sometimes the Bolsheviks clearly went too far. How many peoples they created, Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, Kazakhs. These peoples before the revolution did not exist.


      Well, in this case, they are clearly Crimean residents, but the Tatars ... how to say - have nothing to do with the Kazan Tatars. Their closest relatives are Nogais. But where are they gone long ago
      1. rezident
        rezident April 23 2014 21: 09
        0
        Well, with Russians they have even less in common.
    2. Kazbek
      Kazbek April 23 2014 22: 09
      +2
      Quote: Gardamir
      How many peoples they created, Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, Kazakhs. These peoples before the revolution did not exist.
      Come on belay , and we don’t know request
      From the wiki:
      Kazakhs (Kazakh. қазақтар / qɑzɑqtɑr /; units қазақ / qɑzɑq /) - the Turkic people, the main population of Kazakhstan. Kazakhs also have long been living in areas adjacent to Kazakhstan in China, Russia, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and in the west of Mongolia.
      The ethnonym "қазақ" appeared in the XV centurye, when in 1460 the khans Zhanibek and Kerey with their auls migrated from the banks of the Syr Darya to the east in Semirechye, to the Chu River, to the lands of the ruler of Mogulistan Yesen-Bugi, where they formed the Kazakh Khanate (1465). These tribes began to call themselves free people - “Kazakh” (“Kazakh”), in Russian - “Kazakhs”. In Kazakh speech in this word, both letters “k” are pronounced as solid Қ, but since 1936 of the year, the spelling “Kazakh” has been established in modern Russian spelling.
      In tsarist Russia, the current Kazakhs were called Kyrgyz or Kyrgyz-Kaisaks, so as not to be confused with Russian Cossacks [20]. The misuse of the ethnonyms “Kazakh” and “Kyrgyz” before the revolution was due to errors by incompetent authors and the administration. Back in the 1827 year, A. I. Levshin argued that "The Kyrgyz is the name of a people of a completely different ... the name of the Cossack ... belongs to the Kyrgyz-Kaisak hordes from the beginning of their existence, they do not call themselves otherwise". Initially, the ethnonym Kazakh was entrenched in the form of “Cossack” in 1925 in Soviet Russia after the renaming of the Kyrgyz Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic into the Kazak Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, and in the form of “Kazakh” after the transformation of the Kazak Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic into the Kazakh SSR in the 1936 year.
      The main etymology of the ethnonym "Kazakh": the word "Cossack" means "a free, independent person, traitor, adventurer."

      Kazakhs, unlike the Tatars, managed to regain their original name.
      At the same time, the Tatars, like the Kazakhs, turned to the Soviet government with a request to return to the historical "Bulgars", but they did not grow together ..
      And, in the post-Soviet era, it turned out that the ethnonym "Tatars" is more so to say a brand name good than their own "Bolğar". lol
      1. Gardamir
        Gardamir April 26 2014 08: 38
        0
        For example, it seems to me that in 50 years there will be no Russians left - only Russians, with the Russian language, the Russian national. food such as shawarma and barbecue, Russian nat. a drink like a beer. And with ancient Russian holidays, Vaseline day and the day of Russian independence from Russians. That such nonsense is happening in Russia.
        And Wikipedia is written on the go, so you can’t always trust it.
  10. Zymran
    Zymran April 23 2014 11: 16
    +4
    Remarkably, now there are no Crimean Tatars.
    1. Argyn-suindyk
      Argyn-suindyk April 23 2014 11: 53
      +1
      As I understand it, there are two Russian nations on earth and the wrong nation where everyone is all too often nationalists and enemies, or how fashionable HERE and now to write "invented nation"!
      1. dmb
        dmb April 23 2014 13: 11
        -2
        I agree that if I criticize a generally good article, then for the passage about the "invented nation". It is the nation that decides whether it is or not. Example Dagestan. But the "wisdom" of the leader with his Decree is very, very doubtful. When his drunken predecessor did this, then everything is clear. To wrest power from the communists by any means, including by promises to the "offended". Chechnya is a direct result of these decrees. But the current Guarantor does not seem to be in danger of losing power. Or he also lives by the principle: "After us, even a flood." So both the article and the comments you did not like are a direct consequence of the "indicated stupidity".
        1. Argyn-suindyk
          Argyn-suindyk April 23 2014 14: 02
          +2
          This is not stupidity! This is a trick dictated by the situation, because he promised the same GDP before the referendum all the more so Minikhanov confirmed! Nevertheless, if we discard this controversial passage, it should be noted that the son is not responsible for the father!
        2. cdrt
          cdrt April 23 2014 15: 12
          0
          Quote: dmb
          I agree that if I criticize a generally good article, then for the passage about the "invented nation". It is the nation that decides whether it is or not. Example Dagestan. But the "wisdom" of the leader with his Decree is very, very doubtful. When his drunken predecessor did this, then everything is clear. To wrest power from the communists by any means, including by promises to the "offended". Chechnya is a direct result of these decrees. But the current Guarantor does not seem to be in danger of losing power. Or he also lives by the principle: "After us, even a flood." So both the article and the comments you did not like are a direct consequence of the "indicated stupidity".


          I do not agree.
          Just as you cannot be a little pregnant, the author is either right or wrong. The phrase "yes, this is a mistake, but on the whole he is right" is a common hypocrisy, when the strongest argument is "swept aside" and the defense of the author's heresy begins.
          1. The approach of the first to stand up, that and slippers - is not applicable to the peoples
          2. According to the author, ethnogenesis does not exist. Those. we are the ancient Slavs, Scythian, Indo-Europeans, and Italians, apparently, the Etruscans, Volsky, Cariola, Latins, etc.
          3. And so ... unfortunately the usual article for a site is a semi-literate wise guy who is trying to pull his opinion on history
          1. Silhouette
            Silhouette April 23 2014 17: 01
            0
            A nation is a political concept and is ethnogenetically only determined and explained. Crimean Tatars are not a nation, but really want to be. This is possible only with the formation of their own state (and that is not always the case), which is politically unrealistic. The Crimean Khanate was never an independent state, but was a vassal state entity as part of the Ottoman Port.
          2. dmb
            dmb April 23 2014 18: 48
            +1
            Forgive me with what you disagree: with the variant of settling the Crimea outlined by the author? Then give your version with reference to the relevant sources (please do not refer to mathematicians, comedians and science fiction writers). Or with the impossibility of partial pregnancy? But in the latter, we are in solidarity with you. Disagreement with my theses (otherwise why the commentary was quoted) about the "wisdom of the leader" or the "wisdom" of his predecessor, too, I would like to hear with specifics.
  11. air wolf
    air wolf April 23 2014 11: 33
    +1
    One hell all the nationalists ...
  12. Dragon-y
    Dragon-y April 23 2014 12: 01
    +1
    "That is, the Tatars were slightly more than the present - about 16%. But they were the masters who enslaved the Crimea - the nobility, warriors, slave owners, who made the indigenous (largely Slavic) population of Crimea work for themselves."

    Someone is still haunted by this idea ... Not so long ago, one of their "figures" expressed something like this. Apparently, they want to return to the previous state of affairs. :)
    1. cdrt
      cdrt April 23 2014 15: 17
      +4
      Quote: Dragon-y
      "That is, the Tatars were slightly more than the present - about 16%. But they were the masters who enslaved the Crimea - the nobility, warriors, slave owners, who made the indigenous (largely Slavic) population of Crimea work for themselves."

      Someone is still haunted by this idea ... Not so long ago, one of their "figures" expressed something like this. Apparently, they want to return to the previous state of affairs. :)


      By the way, if you travel around the Crimea, then there is a funny picture looming:
      - the Greeks fished
      - gardening Armenians
      - traded Armenians, Jews and Greeks
      - Karaites, Goths, Krymchaks were engaged in cattle breeding for sale

      And only the Crimean Tatars - ruled or robbed their neighbors - led away slaves. They didn’t even sell slaves themselves - they handed over to the Turks and, to a lesser extent, Jews (by the way, mainly not local, but Turkish and Egyptian).
      They didn’t create and didn’t create anything, even all the significant buildings - and the Italians built for them (well ... the truth is, they built the Moscow Kremlin :-))
      1. Silhouette
        Silhouette April 23 2014 16: 22
        +2
        The steppes and feet mainly went to raids. They were still called Crimeans at that time, which meant robbers. The Tats sat in their forests and avoided military service in the thicket of the forest. And the southern coast did not submit to the Crimean Khan at all and went into raids purely voluntarily when the slaves ended or they wanted to expand the economy.
  13. Goldmitro
    Goldmitro April 23 2014 19: 07
    +2
    <<< And the Tatars do not forget that they are really Tatars who came to Crimea later than all other peoples. >>>
    This must be included in the textbook on the History of Russia, so that some would not be tormented by the scabies of the unrecognized antiquity of their origin and the settlement of Crimea with a claim to the status of their indigenous people and the receipt of privileges from the federal government in Russia in this connection!
  14. rezident
    rezident April 23 2014 21: 14
    0
    How tired you are of this Tatar question. Before you go to the site to read something about military equipment you read and leave, now it's a solid Kremlin agitation. Agitate on health but don’t touch us. We'll figure it out ourselves.
  15. Aydin
    Aydin April 24 2014 04: 07
    +1
    Quote: rezident
    How tired you are of this Tatar question. Before you go to the site to read something about military equipment you read and leave, now it's a solid Kremlin agitation. Agitate on health but don’t touch us. We'll figure it out ourselves.

    The name of the site is Military Review.
  16. Aydin
    Aydin April 24 2014 04: 25
    0
    Those. the site is really increasingly moving away from the main topic.
  17. serge
    serge April 24 2014 09: 52
    +1
    After the Tatars, it would be nice to rehabilitate the Russian population of "Kyrym" and return it to its historical name "Tavricheskaya gubernia".
    1. rezident
      rezident April 24 2014 19: 19
      -1
      Yeah, on the Volga River, return the original historical name Idel.
  18. Rasputin
    Rasputin April 24 2014 14: 00
    -1
    This libel, comments and the situation in Russia resemble Germany in the mid 30s. Nationalist frenzy in Russia and the beginning of the rupture of Ukraine as a state, a clear projection of the accession of Austria to the 3rd Reich. One to one according to the scenario of comrade Hitler!
    What verbiage about the historical mission of the Russian ethnic group, which came out of the way from Kievan Rus (but not earlier), but by the will of Batu (who divided that space, without Putin’s consent), in order to better control the arrival of Yasak (a tribute to the Roof) and should not be considered the birthplace of Rus dependent, but not from the Mongols yet! The rest is drunken ravings and self-praise!
  19. cdrt
    cdrt 24 June 2014 01: 39
    0
    Quote: Rider
    Quote: cdrt
    Well ... maybe the fact is that one group of small nations was conquered by iron and blood just 80 years before, and the other, although they conquered it 160 years before, was clearly treating the Russians as invaders.

    and now what?
    pay and repent, repent and pay?
    such is the story, mon sher.
    if small but very proud peoples will endlessly comb their grievances and, in any case, hit in the back (usually falling on defenseless peaceful people), then very soon these peoples will become even smaller.

    for several centuries they also didn’t come to us with flowers, but we didn’t cut them along the axis of the cart wheel, but we could.
    Isn't it time to live like normal people and not throw the term "occupier" every time?

    Well, for the Cossacks.
    you do not own the question, and judge by various liberal agitation.
    according to them, there were about 50 people with krasnov and von pavnitsa.
    but what met the Cossacks of the Second World War.

    Cavalry divisions

    1st Guards Orders of Lenin, Suvorov II degree, Bogdan Khmelnitsky II degree Red Banner Stavropol Cavalry Division named after M. Blinov.

    3rd Guards Red Banner Order of Suvorov II degree Mozyr cavalry division.

    4th Guards Red Banner Mozyr Cavalry Division.

    6th Guards twice Red Banner Orders of Lenin, Suvorov II degree, Kutuzov II degree Grodno Cavalry Division named after A. Parkhomenko.

    9th Guards twice Red Banner Orders of Suvorov II degree, Bogdan Khmelnitsky II degree, Kutuzov I degree Baranavichy Kuban Cossack Cavalry Division.

    10th Guards Red Banner Orders of Suvorov II degree, Bogdan Khmelnitsky II - I degree, Kutuzov I degree Slutskaya Kuban Cossack Cavalry Division.

    30th Red Banner Orders of Lenin, Suvorov II degree, Kutuzov I degree Novobug cavalry division.

    The 11th Guards Red Banner Order of Bohdan Khmelnytsky, II degree, Volnovakha Don Cossack Cavalry Division.

    12th Guards Red Banner Order of Kutuzov II degree Korsun Don Cossack Cavalry Division.

    63rd Red Banner Korsun Cavalry Division.

    The 8th Guards Red Banner Order of Suvorov, II degree, Rivne Cossack Cavalry Division named after F. Morozov.

    9th Guards twice Red Banner Orders of the Red Star Krasnodar Plastun Division.

    8th Red Banner Far Eastern Debrecen Cavalry Division.

    http://kazakwow.ru/?page_id=69

    and these are only cavalry units.
    as they say "learn materiel"

    Well, with zapadentsmi - yes, they did not finish it.
    thought the world and a good attitude, change the Polish / Austrian sourdough - were mistaken.
    Well, nothing, there’s still time to correct errors.



    your division ...
    I have a great-grandfather, a Don Cossack chieftain, grandfathers, his sons, Cossack officers ... who left the country, the rest were shot at 32-33 as part of the retelling
    and will some alternatively gifted person tell me that I don’t own the facts?
    I have a whole family archive of these facts ...