Military Review

Russia and China did not agree on the terms of delivery Su-35

155

Russia and China have not yet agreed the terms of the contract for the supply of the latest Su-35 multi-role fighter jets.

The ITAR-TASS deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSVTS) of Russia Vyacheslav Dzirkaln informed ITAR-TASS at the exhibition of armaments DEFEXPO-2014.

According to him, the Russian-Chinese negotiations on the Su-35 continue. However, the problem lies in the fact that the Chinese side requires a change in the export appearance of the aircraft offered for delivery. At the same time, the Russian side does not intend to make any fundamental changes in the export image of the Su-35 offered for delivery abroad.

“Changes that can be made in connection with the requirement of“ Chinaization ”of the Su-35 board will be minimal,” Dzirkaln emphasized.
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  1. domokl
    domokl 7 February 2014 10: 47
    +72
    For me it’s not worth selling the latest cars there at all ... For no money ... Anyway, the case will end with copying ... And we won’t argue a damn later ...
    1. Jurkovs
      Jurkovs 7 February 2014 10: 56
      +6
      Electronics can not even be theoretically copied, they still can’t copy the engine, only the fuselage remains. Well, the flag in their hands.
      1. Bezarius
        Bezarius 7 February 2014 11: 04
        +17
        Is it really? In my electronics, they successfully copy. With engines it’s becoming more and more difficult IMHO, even having a sample on hand, it is difficult to know the composition of the alloys of which the engine itself is made.
        1. Slavapom
          Slavapom 7 February 2014 13: 48
          +3
          The collapse of Soviet electronics began just by copying American processors for computers, while the copies turned out to be much worse in performance.
          1. Magellan
            Magellan 7 February 2014 16: 17
            +3
            Quote: Slavapom
            the collapse of Soviet electronics began as

            persecution of cybernetics
            Quote: Slavapom
            at the same time, the copies turned out to be much worse in performance.

            Soviet chips were exact copies of Intel chips

            The problem was time lag. A copy appeared 5 years later than the original. With an annual two-sided increase in the performance of new processors! (Moore's Law)
        2. huginn
          huginn 7 February 2014 19: 14
          +4
          They do not copy electronics, just a significant part of the electronics of leading companies is made in China. Those. The West itself has given technology to the Chinese.
        3. Geisenberg
          Geisenberg 7 February 2014 20: 57
          +1
          Quote: Bezarius
          Is it really? In my electronics, they successfully copy. With engines it’s becoming more and more difficult IMHO, even having a sample on hand, it is difficult to know the composition of the alloys of which the engine itself is made.


          Modern electronics is an element base and microprograms. The elemental base is almost the same everywhere, but copy the horseradish firmware. I do not know for sure, but I suspect that the codes are locked from copying and are encrypted in case backup happens. So, just copying a diagram is even less than nothing, all of these diagrams are in the public domain with comments for dummies.
          As I understand it, the Chinese though that ours should replace some key systems of our production with their Chinese. Thus, they apparently plan with our hands to adapt their Chinese iron with ours. Through the codes, it will be possible to more or less accurately derive algorithms for the operation of the equipment. After this, the program codes will require opening and you can say the plane will become completely Chinese, and technology too. Cunningly conceived but nothing to prove ...
      2. Semen Semyonitch
        Semen Semyonitch 7 February 2014 13: 43
        +8
        Quote: Jurkovs
        Electronics can not even be theoretically copied, they still can’t copy the engine, only the fuselage remains. Well, the flag in their hands.


        Not yet. Chinese-capable students and technology are buying bundles ...
        1. Yuri Sev Caucasus
          Yuri Sev Caucasus 7 February 2014 17: 51
          0
          Chinese students? rather copyists!
          1. Semen Semyonitch
            Semen Semyonitch 7 February 2014 18: 34
            +3
            Quote: Yuri Sev Caucasus
            Chinese students? rather copyists!


            If industry and technology aren’t developed, you’ll copy something from two ...
            1. servant
              servant 7 February 2014 19: 24
              +4
              Quote: Semen Semenych
              Quote: Yuri Sev Caucasus
              Chinese students? rather copyists!


              If industry and technology aren’t developed, you’ll copy something from two ...


              But with this they are all right ...
          2. servant
            servant 7 February 2014 19: 24
            +1
            Quote: Yuri Sev Caucasus
            Chinese students? rather copyists!

            But did the USSR not start aviation from copying?
        2. Geisenberg
          Geisenberg 7 February 2014 21: 02
          0
          Quote: Semen Semenych
          Quote: Jurkovs
          Electronics can not even be theoretically copied, they still can’t copy the engine, only the fuselage remains. Well, the flag in their hands.


          Not yet. Chinese-capable students and technology are buying bundles ...


          It is not students. They are smart performers. To teach their fantasies is useless. This nation does not have such creative potential as ours ...
      3. silver_roman
        silver_roman 7 February 2014 14: 05
        +6
        the fuselage was already licked from the Ukrainian su-33.
        The only thing they need is engines. At 35 is AL-41F1 like. This is a modification of the AL-31F. The engine is excellent, time-tested, but far from new. It goes without saying that selling 5-10 pieces is nonsense. But if the contract will include 50 or more boards, then in principle, why not if we take into account the fact that a new engine is being developed.

        I’m interested in something else: what kind of performance characteristics will FGFA have based on the T-50? and what kind of nodes there will be: the engine in particular, weapons, etc.?!
        1. huginn
          huginn 7 February 2014 19: 25
          0
          The fuselage of the Ukrainian T10K is similar to the Su-27, the production license of which was sold by Russia. From T10K they needed only a wing folding system, and since it turned out to be unsuccessful on this plane and on the Su-33 it is different, then China still does not have a deck aircraft.
      4. vo.dum
        vo.dum 7 February 2014 14: 46
        0
        even what they already learned is worth the money ... the USSR at one time was very invested in these developments, or stole something from someone ... - what and now to give? They took so much without demand ...
      5. servant
        servant 7 February 2014 19: 22
        +2
        Quote: Jurkovs
        Electronics can not even be theoretically copied, they still can’t copy the engine, only the fuselage remains. Well, the flag in their hands.

        Copy? If the components are Chinese then what will they copy?
      6. Geisenberg
        Geisenberg 7 February 2014 20: 54
        0
        Quote: Jurkovs
        Electronics can not even be theoretically copied, they still can’t copy the engine, only the fuselage remains. Well, the flag in their hands.


        A competently copied glider is a very expensive thing. Engines will buy as usual and put where necessary.
    2. ShturmKGB
      ShturmKGB 7 February 2014 11: 03
      +1
      Well, well, they will come in handy ...
    3. Zamachus
      Zamachus 7 February 2014 11: 11
      +8
      I agree the Chinese can’t give anything, and if you give it with big reservations
      1. Sergh
        Sergh 7 February 2014 11: 16
        +16
        If you need to change the appearance, then you should change it to a river barge on wood. Here I agree, let the copier drag!
        1. vo.dum
          vo.dum 7 February 2014 14: 48
          +4
          And write in the instructions ... after unpacking, process with a file ....! wink
    4. tellurium
      tellurium 7 February 2014 11: 16
      +9
      I agree 100%. China has territorial claims against Russia and a long land border. Why should we arm a potential enemy? We don’t need to sell modern weapons to China. Even the United States doesn’t. We remember Damansky and Dzungarian gates.
      1. 0255
        0255 7 February 2014 11: 29
        +19
        so they have the fifth generation J-20 and J-31. The Chinese even claimed that the J-20 is superior to the Su-35. So let them bring to mind.
        So we wish the Chinese failures in an attempt to buy a Su-35.
        1. predator.3
          predator.3 7 February 2014 13: 04
          +4
          Quote: 0255
          so they have the fifth generation J-20 and J-31. The Chinese even claimed that the J-20 is superior to the Su-35. So let them bring to mind.
          So we wish the Chinese failures in an attempt to buy a Su-35.


          So something is wrong with these Chinese fifth generations, since they beg for the Su-35! China does not need to sell any military equipment at all, it is the most dangerous opponent of Russia on the continent, all the more it has common borders, and even they have copied all the latest types our weapons! I do not understand our leadership, which sells all this.
          1. 0255
            0255 7 February 2014 17: 14
            0
            So something is wrong with these Chinese fifth generations, since they beg for the Su-35! China does not need to sell any military equipment at all, it is the most dangerous opponent of Russia on the continent, all the more it has common borders, and even they have copied all the latest types our weapons! I do not understand our leadership, which sells all this.

            so this leadership has already given China part of the Far East, for which the USSR fought in the 1929 and 60's.
            1. sledgehammer102
              sledgehammer102 7 February 2014 17: 23
              +3
              Quote: 0255
              so this leadership has already given China part of the Far East, for which the USSR fought in the 1929 and 60's.


              Read the contracts of those years. Under Stalin, everything was cool, Khrushchev came and drove the USSR into isolation of the whole world and managed to quarrel with a neighbor dominated by a similar ideology (this later led to the conflict on Damansky), and then Gorbachev signed an agreement according to which Damansky leaves China. and the division of the island of B. Ussuriysky is the subject of future negotiations .... Now the Russian Federation and China have no territorial disputes, and relations between our countries are more friendly than ever.

              P.S. In China, Hu Jin Tao is terribly criticized for signing this agreement, while we criticize GDP .... So, a compromise solution is available.
        2. svp67
          svp67 7 February 2014 13: 06
          +1
          Quote: 0255
          The Chinese even claimed that the J-20 is superior to the Su-35.
          Well, what can't you say just to sell your "" ...
        3. favn
          favn 7 February 2014 13: 52
          +3
          so they have the fifth generation J-20 and J-31

          5th generation Chinese aircraft like 5 star Egyptian hotels)))
        4. The comment was deleted.
        5. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 7 February 2014 16: 48
          +1
          Quote: 0255
          so they have the fifth generation J-20 and J-31.

          Of course you can call a cow a dog, but it won’t bite you
    5. Rustam
      Rustam 7 February 2014 11: 30
      +6
      For me it’s not worth selling the latest cars there at all ... For no money


      What do you all sell and offer the best solutions - while maintaining jobs and production

      And how long have we talked like this, or have we forgotten the 90s and early 2000s? If it weren’t for Sino-Indian orders, maybe there would have been no planes
      1. zen1963
        zen1963 7 February 2014 12: 50
        +2
        And if China attacked us in those years, he would have easily captured all of Siberia
        1. 3935333
          3935333 7 February 2014 13: 38
          +1
          In those years? I certainly wouldn’t win, in those years I just used it to buy something that they could never have brought to the series.
        2. demel2
          demel2 7 February 2014 17: 57
          0
          I would not attack, I would not capture, because there was still nuclear weapons.
          1. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 7 February 2014 20: 59
            0
            Quote: demel2
            I would not attack, I would not capture, because there was still nuclear weapons.

            What are you doing, Yao, Yao .... Need more desire to apply it
            Perhaps if there was an opportunity to get rid of part of the territory it would be so. Berezovsky and Chubais needed to use nuclear weapons? They lived so well
      2. Mihail29
        Mihail29 7 February 2014 14: 04
        0
        About the 90s you are certainly right, but now it’s not the 90s.
    6. GDP
      GDP 7 February 2014 11: 35
      +3
      So many technologies have already been torn at us, it’s time to already understand who we are dealing with ... Then, our weapons made in China are delivered to our partners, slowly squeezing ourselves out of the market ...
      1. Rustam
        Rustam 7 February 2014 11: 56
        +4
        and if the su-35s is not interested in anyone yet, although they have been pushing it since 2007?

        or that the money has appeared and it may end, or they have forgotten how, thanks to the Chinese, KNAAPO survived
        1. Mairos
          Mairos 7 February 2014 12: 21
          +1
          He interests us first of all.
    7. kris
      kris 7 February 2014 12: 04
      -7
      Quote: domokl
      For me it’s not worth selling the latest cars there at all ... For no money ... Anyway, the case will end with copying ... And we won’t argue a damn later ...

      our government loves only loot, and the rest to them!
    8. Mairos
      Mairos 7 February 2014 12: 19
      +2
      I agree! they went to the OPU! And then again in three years will present "a unique Chinese fighter"
    9. Hitrovan07
      Hitrovan07 7 February 2014 12: 57
      +3
      Well, why not sell - the main thing is to put a good price wink
    10. AnaBat
      AnaBat 7 February 2014 14: 23
      +2
      Ours are not fools. They will make an option - in a hurry for tea, such that then our Chinese friends will scratch their turnips for a long time - but how is this done !!!
    11. vo.dum
      vo.dum 7 February 2014 14: 43
      +2
      I completely agree with you. And the talk about changing the look is nothing more than a smokescreen, apparently it would be about recognizing our design decisions and if they would copy, they would pay ... and the Chinese, as always, like .... not a pinami .. wink
    12. URAL72
      URAL72 7 February 2014 15: 36
      +3
      "Military Parity." Chinese supersonic anti-ship missile (RCC) YJ-12 was created using the technologies of the Russian anti-radar missile (RLR) X-31R.
      In the mid-1990s, China received the technology of a supersonic ramjet engine (SPVRD) of a Russian rocket,
      which also has a version of the RCC X-31A. China has studied in detail the SPJRD technologies and is interested in jointly developing with Russia a hypersonic ramjet capable of dispersing a missile to 5-6 M (now the speed of the YJ-12 is 4,5 M), the magazine writes. Russia is currently developing an X-90 hypersonic missile.

      The last line pleases ...
    13. And Us Rat
      And Us Rat 7 February 2014 16: 05
      +1
      Quote: domokl
      For me it’s not worth selling the latest cars there at all ... For no money ... Anyway, the case will end with copying ... And we won’t argue a damn later ...

      To do this, it is necessary to finally identify the Serdyukov network and eradicate it, these - they will sell their mother to the one who pays, and no one knows how many of them are still hidden in the system request
    14. Petr1
      Petr1 7 February 2014 16: 36
      +1
      If they sell, then these technologies are not new ... the planes are new, but there is no technology hi
      1. lestad
        lestad 7 February 2014 19: 25
        +2
        exactly wink planes to sell. no technology
  2. svp67
    svp67 7 February 2014 10: 48
    +14
    Russia and China have not yet agreed the terms of the contract for the supply of the latest Su-35 multi-role fighter jets.
    I would be doubly glad, even in triplets, if this news was continued like this ...
    "and all the Su35s currently being produced and being produced are only used by the Russian Air Force, replacing older types of aircraft. As a result, the Su35 becomes the BASIC fighter of Russia."
    1. Odysseus
      Odysseus 7 February 2014 11: 01
      +9
      Quote: svp67
      As a result, Su35 becomes the BASIC fighter of Russia "

      No, the T-50 is to become the main fighter in Russia. The Su-35 is an intermediate type.
      1. svp67
        svp67 7 February 2014 11: 28
        +7
        Quote: Odyssey
        No, the T-50 is to become the main fighter in Russia. The Su-35 is an intermediate type.
        Yes, YES ... The T50 will appear for the T100 and it will be BETTER, let's wait for it too, but while our "falcons" fly on the Su27 and MiG29 still of Soviet production ... No, and again NO ... Now our industry is capable mass production of the Su35, it is clearly much better than all that we have, the T50 is still an experimental aircraft that has not passed the entire complex of tests, does not have those engines and parts of equipment for which it is designed ... Even without its NAME, so as the letters "T" and "C" in the Sukhoi Design Bureau are used for experimental vehicles, just like the letters "E" for the MiG Design Bureau, the conclusion is unambiguous - "Su35"
        1. Odysseus
          Odysseus 7 February 2014 11: 53
          +8
          Quote: svp67
          Yes, YES ... The T50 will appear for the T100 and it will be BETTER, let's wait for it too, but while our "falcons" fly on the Su27 and MiG29 are still of Soviet production ... No, and again NO.

          The main type is the aircraft for many years, the aircraft is capable of solving a wide range of problems not only now, but 10 years later. So the Su-35 is in no way suitable as the main one.
          The Su-35 is precisely the intermediate type, intermediate between the main types — the old Su-27 and the new T-50. While the T-50 is not ready, we all, of course, are happy with the Su-35, but nothing more.
          Quote: svp67
          Now our industry is capable of mass production of Su35, it is clearly much better, of all that we have

          Not in large quantities, but in the number of 12-14 pieces per year. And as for the better, then if you compare with the Su-27 of the eighties, then of course it is better, but if with the Su-30SM then there is not much advantage.
        2. iwind
          iwind 7 February 2014 12: 03
          +5
          Quote: svp67
          and YES ... For T50 there will be a T100 and it will be BETTER, let's wait for it too, but while our "falcons" fly on the Su27 and MiG29 are still Soviet production ... No, and again NO ... Now our industry is capable mass production of the Su35, it is clearly much better than all that we have

          I think at the moment it is better that we have this Su 30cm, almost the only plane that can work equally well both on land and in the air. Plus, a well-developed model, if you wish, you can build a large series, for sane money.
          1. Odysseus
            Odysseus 7 February 2014 12: 14
            +3
            Quote: iwind
            I think at the moment it is better that we have this Su 30cm, almost the only plane that can work equally well both on land and in the air. Plus, a well-developed model, if you wish, you can build a large series, for sane money.

            I agree, it would be more logical, in general, to order a large series of Su-30SM, and then immediately proceed to mass production of the T-50. But the question is that the Su-30 is an Irkutsk aircraft, and KnAAPO has been carrying out the Su-20 program for 27 years 35M (Su-XNUMX).
          2. VAF
            VAF 7 February 2014 12: 26
            +4
            Quote: iwind
            work equally well both on the ground and in the air.


            A bit wrong .. this is MKI, MKA and MKM can, but our CM is still .. "good through the air" and .. "not bad in .. sea" and ".. on the ground over .. stationary objects"! soldier
            1. iwind
              iwind 7 February 2014 12: 47
              +1
              Quote: vaf
              A bit wrong .. this is MKI, MKA and MKM can, but our CM is still .. "good through the air" and .. "not bad in .. sea" and ".. on the ground over .. stationary objects"!

              Well, they promised that they would not concede to the MKI, etc ... recourse
              1. VAF
                VAF 7 February 2014 12: 56
                +6
                Quote: iwind
                Well, after all, they promised that they would not yield to the MKI, etc.


                Here's something a .. "promise" and "declare" THEY (by the term THEY mean THEM, and not the personnel of design bureaus and factories wink) they know how, but .. "money" to highlight or give the green light "to domestic developments .... this is wassat
            2. leon-iv
              leon-iv 7 February 2014 13: 49
              0
              Even if they finish KVM at sea, it is more needed there.
        3. VAF
          VAF 7 February 2014 13: 04
          +3
          Quote: svp67
          , as well as KB MiG letter "E


          This was only at the "dawn of Soviet power". but in fact ... digital designations of the type: ed.63, ed.67, iz.9-12.izd.01, etc. soldier
  3. Salamander
    Salamander 7 February 2014 10: 48
    +25
    Come on, pull, until we arm our Air Force SU-35 and T-50! And then it will be possible to sell (but the export, stripped-down version! (To the Su-27)) In the meantime, no, no! Such a handsome ...
    1. Bronis
      Bronis 7 February 2014 12: 44
      +5
      Quote: Salamander
      Come on, pull, until we arm our Air Force SU-35 and T-50! And then it will be possible to sell (but the export, stripped-down version! (Up to Su-27)

      They sold Su-27 to them at the beginning of the 90 (more than 50 pcs), then Su-30МК2 and MKK (about a hundred). And now they themselves are assembling an option based on the Su-27 - J-11 (deep for a hundred, if not two).
      And they also make a ship vehicle, accidentally similar to the Su-33 ... for Liaoin, "accidentally similar" to the Varyag ... sad
    2. Basarev
      Basarev 7 February 2014 13: 23
      0
      We have no right to sell any of our developments to the Chinese, except the oldest. Here from the T-55, still in service, albeit in reserve - it is quite possible to get rid of it by pushing China. The T-72 - I personally see the best option to remake BMP like BMO-T. But Su-35, we simply do not have the right to sell.
      1. Bronis
        Bronis 7 February 2014 19: 46
        +3
        Quote: Basarev
        We have no right to sell any of our developments to the Chinese, except the oldest. Here from the T-55, still in service, albeit in reserve - it is quite possible to get rid of it by pushing China

        And who will buy them from us ...
        China has long been making its own tanks. The same Type 96 and Type 99, grown from T-72 - have long been in quite commodity quantities.
        1. Basarev
          Basarev 7 February 2014 20: 46
          0
          But it’s not the case when we equip our rivals with the latest weapons, and we’ll carry the old stuff themselves.
  4. denssss
    denssss 7 February 2014 10: 49
    +7
    Do not sell our technology to the Chinese!
    1. GDP
      GDP 7 February 2014 11: 37
      +4
      So ktozh sells them? They just steal them and that's it ...
      1. Bronis
        Bronis 7 February 2014 12: 50
        +2
        Quote: GDP
        So ktozh sells them? They just steal them and that's it ...

        If you don’t sell a sample, it’s more difficult to steal ... An example is the same Su-27 ...
  5. fzr1000
    fzr1000 7 February 2014 10: 49
    +10
    "Agree, agree ..." and so on 100500 times.
    1. 0255
      0255 7 February 2014 11: 31
      +1
      Quote: fzr1000
      "Agree, agree ..." and so on 100500 times.

      100000000050000000000000 times laughing
      1. bomg.77
        bomg.77 7 February 2014 12: 39
        0
        Quote: 0255
        100000000050000000000000 times
        Is this a full version of a hundred hundred muleons?
        1. Salamander
          Salamander 7 February 2014 17: 28
          +7
          Three people get into purgatory: Russian, Englishman and German. God says to them:
          -Who will tell me a number I don’t know will go to Paradise.
          The Englishman called - a trillion, God said: -I know and sent him to Hell.
          The German called - a billion, God said: "And I know that - and also sent him to Hell."
          Russian thought and said:
          - Doh ... I!
          God was surprised:
          -I don’t know that number! And how much is it?
          Russian answers:
          -And you ask the switchman on the railway.
          God fulfilled his promise - he sent a Russian to Paradise, but he himself turned into a man and descended to Earth. Found a switchman
          comes up and asks:
          -Listen, man, and how much is DOH..I?
          The switchman thought and says:
          -Do you see the rails?
          God:
          -I see!
          Switchman:
          -Do you see the sleepers?
          God:
          -I see!
          Switchman here go and count the sleepers as it will be WELL THEM AT X ...! So this is only half!
  6. Pit
    Pit 7 February 2014 10: 49
    +5
    And thank God that they did not agree. Otherwise, in a couple of three months, after the first shipment, the Chinese would have a fighter of "their own" design, which is not inferior to ours and is ... times cheaper.
  7. Stiletto
    Stiletto 7 February 2014 10: 49
    +8
    What are the changes to the export option? belay Lantern to narrow? To paint yellow paint?
    On the other hand, they didn’t agree - and thank God. I am not a fan of this deal. SU-z5 - in his army. And China boasted that they themselves created photocopies there, which are better than SU. Let them fly on them.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 7 February 2014 13: 44
      +1
      Electronics and software, that no one will sell important critical items to anyone, has long been voiced. Only here it turns out that nobody heard that.
    2. Yuri Sev Caucasus
      Yuri Sev Caucasus 7 February 2014 17: 59
      0
      in which the engines burn from overloads and the engine life is too small, let them fly on them!
  8. Zenit is a champion
    Zenit is a champion 7 February 2014 10: 51
    0
    let the Chinas fly on their 100-meter fifth generation)) mega-designers)
  9. crambol
    crambol 7 February 2014 10: 51
    +3
    China requires a change in the export look of the aircraft offered for delivery

    According to the latest intelligence, the input nozzles should be oblique. \ _ /.
  10. Vitaly Anisimov
    Vitaly Anisimov 7 February 2014 10: 52
    +2
    the Chinese side requires a change in the export appearance of the aircraft
    How to understand it..? dragons to paint .. laughing
    1. Pit
      Pit 7 February 2014 10: 54
      +2
      And change the name from Su-35 to Mao Zedong fellow
    2. Apollo
      Apollo 7 February 2014 10: 57
      +14
      quote - Russia and China bye did not agree terms of the contract for the supply of the latest Su-35 multi-functional fighters.
      The ITAR-TASS deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSVTS) of Russia Vyacheslav Dzirkaln informed ITAR-TASS at the exhibition of armaments DEFEXPO-2014.

      I will answer not with words but with a picture, the Chinese in Russian. laughing
    3. VADEL
      VADEL 7 February 2014 11: 38
      0
      Camouflage-LEGO they need.
  11. Zubr
    Zubr 7 February 2014 10: 54
    +12
    winked Look, how our smaller ones got bustled about, wanted a complete Russian package .. lol This is a generation close to the 5 in TTX. And ours probably were going to deliver them with old engines, a radar and an Optoelectronic guidance complex. That's right. And then again they will begin to copy. smile "You need such a cow yourself, I won't sell you a cow to anyone." laughing
    1. 0255
      0255 7 February 2014 11: 34
      +1
      "Degraded" versions of military equipment have always been exported, this is natural. How do the Chinese fail to understand this? laughing
      1. VAF
        VAF 7 February 2014 12: 37
        +10
        Quote: 0255
        "Degraded" versions of military equipment have always been exported, this is natural


        belay request

        I advise you to study:
        1. From what year are the export deliveries of the Su-30 MKM, MKA and MKI, and from what year to us ... the "cut version" in the form of the Su-30SM.
        2. From what year are the Su-30MK, MK2, MKV, MK2V exported and from what year the Su-30M2 comes to us.
        3. From what year are export deliveries and modernization of the Mig-29SM and SMT and modernization to the UPG /
        For your information: for us .. the "ultimate dream" was 9-13C.
        4. From what year are Mig-29K / KUB exported and from what year to us.
        About avionics I will not, because. probably understandable. that Bars and Zhuk-A were not developed for .. "local airlines" lol
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 7 February 2014 13: 49
          -1
          vaf, you are an "expert" with us, but you don't know that certain technologies may fall under the export ban. If a foreign customer purchases equipment on the side, then these are questions to the equipment seller. Well, to our boobies who cannot do better.
          1. VAF
            VAF 7 February 2014 13: 59
            +3
            Quote: EvilLion
            vaf you


            And that we are already drinks that so in familiarity .. you wassat

            Quote: EvilLion
            we


            Let me be curious ... who has it .. "with us" wassat

            Quote: EvilLion
            that certain technologies may fall under the export ban


            What I know .. You better not know ... you'll sleep better wink

            Quote: EvilLion
            . If a foreign customer acquires equipment on the side, then these are questions to the seller of the equipment. Well, to our boobies, who do not know how to do better.


            You mean those "boobies". who "made" ... MiG-29SMT, MiG-29K / KUB, Su-30MKI, MKA, MKM and Su-30SM, Su-35S? bully
            1. EvilLion
              EvilLion 7 February 2014 17: 45
              +1
              If the Indians chose a car with French accessories, then only the developers of domestic analogues can be blamed for this, although the reasons may be objective. Just to the developers of the aircraft, who manage to link any equipment with each other, I just have no complaints.

              What I know .. You better not know ... you'll sleep better


              If you knew what some NATO or Chinese generals knew, you would have slept a baby’s sleep. Oh, why, why, and they also have enough mess.
        2. 0255
          0255 7 February 2014 15: 28
          +2
          About avionics I will not, because. probably understandable. that Bars and Zhuk-A were not developed for .. "local airlines"

          Well, it was necessary to live on something when there were no orders from the native Air Force. It is sad that now the Su-30s are more exported.
          And is it really that bad with the new Su-30SM? belay
          1. VAF
            VAF 7 February 2014 16: 41
            +2
            Quote: 0255
            And is it really that bad with the new Su-30SM?


            And who said that .. "everything is bad"? On the contrary ... in comparison with the Su-35S, today it is simply good +! drinks
            In the end, they will "give birth" to the suspended OPES, "navigation" and so on good and will be almost like MKM wink
            1. 0255
              0255 7 February 2014 17: 08
              +2
              And who said that .. "everything is bad"?

              you read your comments - so you think that everything is bad)))
              1. VAF
                VAF 7 February 2014 19: 09
                +2
                Quote: 0255
                you read your comments - so you think that everything is bad)))


                You just need to read it carefully and everything will be good And if all the time fellow cancer is the same fish .. then cancer from this fish will not become. although the same ... seafood, +! drinks
  12. alex-s
    alex-s 7 February 2014 10: 55
    +1
    China requires a change in the export look of the aircraft offered for delivery

    What, they didn’t like the cut of eyes ?! fool
  13. Fin
    Fin 7 February 2014 10: 56
    +4
    Russia and China have not yet agreed the terms of the contract for the supply of the latest Su-35 multi-role fighter jets.

    We are taking time not in a hurry. We create working groups to coordinate the changes, argue for each rivet and so on for 2-3 years with delivery in 2020. And there, the T-50 will come in series to replace it.
  14. Scandinavian
    Scandinavian 7 February 2014 11: 00
    +3
    It seems that the Chinese want to get a luxury package, BUT the armament is not a car in a car dealership with different equipment ... you don’t want to take it, it will take another .... there’s always a good Samaritan using Russian equipment ...
  15. dmitrij.blyuz
    dmitrij.blyuz 7 February 2014 11: 02
    +5
    What the devil is our fighter? Absolutely numb? Himself, no damn, someone all? What the heck? Something is not right in the Russian Kingdom! am
  16. Vadim12
    Vadim12 7 February 2014 11: 04
    +3
    This is how much effort and money you need to invest to create such a beautiful and formidable car! No need to sell it to China in any form.
    1. Apollo
      Apollo 7 February 2014 12: 19
      +5
      Quote: Vadim12
      No need to sell it to China in any form.

      That's right, let China make toys for children. laughing Although already captivated the whole world.
      1. iwind
        iwind 7 February 2014 12: 41
        +1
        Quote: Apollon
        Quote: Vadim12
        No need to sell it to China in any form.

        That's right, let China make toys for children. laughing Although already captivated the whole world.
        ]

        They know how to do advertising in Honde. I remembered not advertising at all, or rather farewell to the Hondo NSX, but the work is very beautiful
  17. Odysseus
    Odysseus 7 February 2014 11: 06
    +3
    Since the Chinese are demanding something, it means that they have significant progress on the engines for new fighters.
    After all, the main thing why they need a Su-35 is the engines for the J-20. If they had a blockage on the engines, they would take the Su-35 soundlessly.
    1. cherkas.oe
      cherkas.oe 7 February 2014 12: 32
      +1
      Quote: Odyssey
      .If they had a blockage on the engines, they would take the Su-35 soundlessly.

      This is the problem, apparently our export version has an engine attached to the SU-35, which is located on the SU-30SM, i.e. the 31st with OVT, and the Chinese want the 41st deeply modernized, almost the same, which is on the T-50 .
      1. VAF
        VAF 7 February 2014 12: 44
        +6
        Quote: cherkas.oe
        and the Chinese want the 41st deeply modernized, almost the one that stands on the T-50.


        The Chinese do not want this. Because 117 and 117C are different in size and line-up of "body kit" and KPA but simply .. "stupidly" will not fit into the engine nacelles. wassat

        Ours just pull the "rubber". That would not have happened as with the Hindu "zhelalki" on the MiG-35 ... or as about the gopher .. "seems to be, but de facto ... recourse

        That will be the year 2015. end (God forbid) the test .. and then ..trade wassat +! drinks
        1. cherkas.oe
          cherkas.oe 7 February 2014 13: 20
          +2
          Quote: vaf
          That will be the year 2015. end (God forbid) the test .. and then ..trade

          Thanks ... Tady - what- oh! drinks
        2. EvilLion
          EvilLion 7 February 2014 13: 52
          0
          Then AL-31F and Ed. 117. 117 itself, as far as I understand, is identical in size.
          And there is no need to burst through the open door, some elements have been recognized as non-exportable and that's it.
  18. Saburo
    Saburo 7 February 2014 11: 06
    +4
    I hope in the end the deal is canceled. The Su-35 is not some kind of Mi-8, it is a serious machine, the presence of which China can seriously change the balance of power in the region. Moreover, the Chinese, according to their own statements, are preparing to build airplanes of an almost stagnant generation, so the flag is in their hands.
  19. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 7 February 2014 11: 09
    +7
    I read the headline
    Russia and China did not agree on the terms of delivery Su-35

    With joy jumped to the ceiling. I read an article
    Russia and China while did not agree on the terms of the contract

    Descended from the ceiling to sinful earth ... negative
    No need to coordinate. Neither now nor later.
  20. Zubr
    Zubr 7 February 2014 11: 15
    +5
    Quote: dmitrij.blyuz
    What the devil is our fighter? Absolutely numb? Himself, no damn, someone all? What the heck? Something is not right in the Russian Kingdom! am


    KINGDOM! laughing
  21. Siberia 9444
    Siberia 9444 7 February 2014 11: 16
    +1
    It’s necessary to tie up selling China equipment! They spread the song of the Chinese proto as they will come to the Far East and Siberia as they freed them! This is a signal for Russia! It takes years to develop and we serve them on saucers! angry
  22. Yves762
    Yves762 7 February 2014 11: 22
    +2
    Russia and China did not agree terms of delivery of the Su-35.

    Russia and China not yet agreed terms of the contract for the supply of the latest Su-35 multi-functional fighters.

    There are only differences, and the number and range of shades of comments are already much wider ... lol ...
  23. Cnbv
    Cnbv 7 February 2014 11: 25
    +2
    Tea - only cookies! We ourselves must first rearm. Yes, how much they already endure their copying, which we can not prohibit through any courts!
  24. Wiruz
    Wiruz 7 February 2014 11: 29
    +1
    For once, China decided to BUY a fighter and not Xerox. Wonderful ... But why do they need a Su-35 if they, according to them, are working on four fifth-generation fighters? Or did they just realize that all of their future IPPs are inferior to the Su-35?
    1. Yuri Sev Caucasus
      Yuri Sev Caucasus 7 February 2014 18: 06
      0
      here at a distance they have not yet learned to xer, for this they decided to buy THEN to Xer :-)
  25. dimarm74
    dimarm74 7 February 2014 11: 30
    +3
    In vain, assholes are arming right next to it .... And it's not about copying, even the squadron of such machines poses a serious threat.
  26. Humpty
    Humpty 7 February 2014 11: 37
    +4
    Selling the latest technology abroad, especially to China, is too reminiscent of the "classics of Russian business" - to sell a box of vodka at a cheap price, to drink money away.
  27. ed65b
    ed65b 7 February 2014 11: 47
    0
    And what do the Chinese actually demand? Does anyone know?
    1. clidon
      clidon 7 February 2014 17: 36
      +1
      They wrote "Chineseization" - to replace some of the electronics with our own. They have already said that the most interesting thing about the Su-35 is the engine.
  28. REDBLUE
    REDBLUE 7 February 2014 11: 48
    +1
    What does it mean to change the face? An excellent design bureau worked on this look, and then change it. Maybe they just saw off the wings)))
  29. Slavon76
    Slavon76 7 February 2014 11: 57
    +2
    I propose to make all the changes, but to sell the demo version .... for a month. And then a monthly fee for every day. laughing
  30. polkovnik manuch
    polkovnik manuch 7 February 2014 11: 58
    +3
    The changes that they require to make are nonsense! The fact is that the Chinese, as usual, do not want to pay the whole deal (48 pcs.) And take in small batches of 3-5 cars to immediately try to copy, and then you can refuse the rest.
  31. cherkas.oe
    cherkas.oe 7 February 2014 12: 24
    +3
    Well, it’s clear to the goat that the Chinese want instead of the 31 modernized engines, which ours are going to put on the export version, they want the 41st with a new control system, in order to try to create an acceptable engine for their alleged fifth generation.
    1. VADEL
      VADEL 7 February 2014 12: 44
      +1
      And how does the engine change the look of the glider?
      1. VAF
        VAF 7 February 2014 13: 01
        +2
        Quote: VADEL
        And how does the engine change the look of the glider?


        If it is exaggerated, then it's like ... trying to insert the Volgovskiy engine into the Gigue wassat
  32. Const
    Const 7 February 2014 12: 31
    0
    Fuckers, you'd better send all the design bureaus to China at once and say bluntly: "We, traitors, have lied on you Russians. Goons who live by greed.
  33. Vova
    Vova 7 February 2014 12: 33
    +1
    Sell, not sell. In 5-8 years, China will sell, maybe even to us.
  34. slavik_gross
    slavik_gross 7 February 2014 12: 47
    0
    Here are the goodies !!! Let them develop themselves ...
  35. Dwarfik
    Dwarfik 7 February 2014 12: 51
    0
    Kind! I did not upset her with a lovely fact! It would have been five more years to agree, otherwise the Chyns somehow took up arms smartly, no matter what happens!
  36. Arh
    Arh 7 February 2014 12: 55
    +3
    I would not sell the Su-35 to anyone! ! ! * * *
  37. Hitrovan07
    Hitrovan07 7 February 2014 13: 01
    -1
    Apparently, many do not understand that the Su-35 is the past for the T-50. Therefore, it is better to sell to China for that kind of money in order to quickly modernize the plants and build a T-50 several hundred a year.
    1. VAF
      VAF 7 February 2014 13: 09
      +5
      Quote: Hitrovan07
      Apparently, many do not understand that the Su-35 is the past for the T-50.


      No, it’s just that many people understand that the Su-35S is an almost ready-made fighter that uses more than 70% of avionics and missile defense from the T-50, which is still 5-7 years old until it became a full-fledged combat unit!

      All the money from the export contracts of the UAC "pours" into not at all what you write, but in .. "our everything ..... Super-Bobik" crying
      1. TSOOBER
        TSOOBER 7 February 2014 14: 09
        +2
        Hi Sergey! The question is, if the avionics and the Su-35S SUO are 70% of the T-50, then why are these periods 5-7 years to a full-fledged combat unit! Because the T-50 flights are now not so intense, they sorted out the glider! It remains to link everything in the complex to tie weapons and in front of the song! I hope 2-3 years! Because during this time it’s quite possible to bring the software to mind, and if this time is not enough they won’t save 5-7 years!
        1. VAF
          VAF 7 February 2014 14: 28
          +6
          Quote: TSOOBER
          ! The question is, if avionics and SUO SU-35S are 70% of the T-50, then why such a period of 5-7 years to a full-fledged combat unit


          Hi Igor! You ask questions ... "from the series bully "so I will answer" evasively " wink (within the permitted).
          70% still yes, but the readiness of these 70% is promised only in 2015, i.e. deadlines for the completion of the ICG and official adoption).
          Flights on the "T-50" are strictly in accordance with the LCI plan (we must build on this) and not from public fellow Boldyreva. Press services of the Ministry of Defense and "aviaspeshelSMI" wassat


          Quote: TSOOBER
          ! It remains to link everything in the complex to tie weapons and in front of the song!


          This is called "called start and finish" crying I hope such a 2pluhi "like it won't work with the Su-35 (thanks to the great Po fool ) .. "to put the car in a series 2 before the end of not only the GSI, but also full tests on separate" topics "on the LMS, AV, avionics, etc.
          Now we are "reaping" the fruits in the form of sending for GSI whole 10 serial aircraft (of which 4 have already flown to the plant for .... well, in general, they have flown over) and "delivery-roll-out2 seems to be still serial. But that's just it turns out it is necessary to "some" more .. additional tests are carried out .. that's why they "roll" from the regimental parking lot to the factory one .. therefore in Dzemgakh they decided to re-equip the first 2, so that everything was near
          And here... fellow ..all 2 will break ".oy .. for export" .. like little children .. by God .. everyone believes in "fairy tales"! lol

          Quote: TSOOBER
          I hope 2-3 years


          And about the engines .. forgot? wink
          1. TSOOBER
            TSOOBER 7 February 2014 15: 30
            +2
            Thank you Sergei! As for the SU-35s, the main thing is to promise and report, mass production and so on blah-blah-blah, but in fact, PPC (that's where the Chinese have questions, the Chinese have a good intelligence, why they are still trying to pull it off until 35 to mind, or else spend your money on expensive work). And therefore the SU-35s flies through all the competitions (the epic MIG-35 does not teach anything and Rafael is good or bad, the tenth thing, selling "futures" on the arms market does not roll)! T-50 I want a video or photo of the use of weapons (for the collection) - a joke! drinks
            1. VAF
              VAF 7 February 2014 16: 46
              +2
              Quote: TSOOBER
              ! And on the T-50 I want a video or photo of the use of weapons (for the collection) -a joke!


              When in LII'ah the "theme" will go ... I will send, but the real application is only in GLITS .. and there I already .. "not a walker" request
              1. TSOOBER
                TSOOBER 7 February 2014 17: 33
                +2
                waiting for
              2. iwind
                iwind 7 February 2014 17: 55
                +1
                Quote: vaf
                When in LII'ah the "theme" will go ... I will send, but the real application is only in GLITS .. and there I already .. "not a walker"

                If it’s no secret, is this year worth the wait? It was generally gorgeous if they ate Sukhoi would attend to a video in HD.
                By the way, what about the fully composite case?
                as I recall there were problems.
                1. VAF
                  VAF 7 February 2014 19: 15
                  +2
                  Quote: iwind
                  If it’s no secret, is this year worth the wait?


                  Rather yes than no... wink

                  Quote: iwind
                  By the way, what about the fully composite case?


                  No comment here bully But .. "topics" on "qualitative reduction of EPR values" are constantly being conducted bully

                  Quote: iwind
                  as I recall there were problems.


                  Toi are tested. to ... "level" all sorts of .. "problems" drinks
            2. 0255
              0255 7 February 2014 17: 34
              +2
              And on the T-50 I want a video or photo of the use of weapons (for the collection), a joke!

              there is such a video on Youtube
              I hope this is a real shoot, not a montage or computer graphics.
              1. VAF
                VAF 7 February 2014 19: 17
                +2
                Quote: 0255
                I hope this is a real shoot, not a montage or computer graphics.


                Unfortunately this is ... cartoon wassat
        2. demel2
          demel2 7 February 2014 18: 35
          0
          Is the engine ready? Am I missing something?
  38. Roman 1977
    Roman 1977 7 February 2014 13: 08
    +6
    We put the Su-35 to the Chinese and in a couple of years we get another J with a new serial number. Really, the sale of Su-27 to China did not teach us anything. See for yourself photos of Chinese fighters lined up on one site. Now find the 10 differences with their prototypes ...

    clickable
    1. 0255
      0255 7 February 2014 17: 17
      0
      beautiful photo.
      Do they still fly MiG-17 and MiG-19?
      1. 0255
        0255 7 February 2014 17: 40
        0
        and what kind of aircraft is left in the foreground? What kind of hellish mixture of Su-27 is it with their J-8 (similar to the Su-15) or something else?
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 7 February 2014 17: 56
          +3
          JH-7A Flying Leopard II.
          1. supertiger21
            supertiger21 8 February 2014 10: 44
            +2
            But doesn’t it remind you of one universal fighter ???

            In the appearance of the JH-7A, the outlines of the American 3rd generation fighter F-4 Phantom II are visible.
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 8 February 2014 10: 48
              +1
              Something between the Jaguar and the Tornado.
  39. zen1963
    zen1963 7 February 2014 13: 09
    0
    So they have a 5th generation fighter is already flying
    1. fzr1000
      fzr1000 7 February 2014 14: 43
      +1
      Something looks similar to the 5th generation, to be exact.
      1. servant
        servant 7 February 2014 19: 26
        0
        Quote: fzr1000
        Something looks similar to the 5th generation, to be exact.


        However, like our T-50! Even there are no engines corresponding to the 5th generation ...
        Not everything is on chocolate too, I’d have more SU-35 for myself, but I don’t have to earn loot !!!
  40. Atlas
    Atlas 7 February 2014 13: 32
    0
    Russia and China have not agreed on the terms of supply of the Su-35.
    That’s okay ....
  41. Suhov
    Suhov 7 February 2014 13: 55
    +2
    ... the Chinese side is demanding a change in the export appearance of the aircraft offered for delivery ...

    What does it mean to "change the face of the export aircraft"? what
    Maybe change the look of the Su-35 so that the result would be the look of the T-50? wassat
    "No! I can't accept that!" - an adequate answer! stop
    1. leon-iv
      leon-iv 7 February 2014 14: 02
      +1
      Install another avionics
  42. supertiger21
    supertiger21 7 February 2014 14: 06
    0
    I don’t understand why selling a 4 ++ fighter to our potential adversary. If you sell anything to China, then they will have enough Su-27s. My opinion is that we should not export new weapons at all until it is in our forces. That will be accepted in 2015, then it will be possible to drive to Peru, Algeria, etc.
    1. rolik2
      rolik2 7 February 2014 17: 04
      0
      Quote: supertiger21
      If you sell anything to China, then they and Su-27 is enough

      So he already has them

      Quote: supertiger21
      My opinion is that it is not necessary to export new weapons at all until it is in our forces.

      And for what money to develop it then?

      That will be accepted in 2015, then it will be possible to drive to Peru, Algeria, etc.

      Somehow this phrase is not combined with the previous negative
      1. supertiger21
        supertiger21 7 February 2014 22: 32
        +1
        Quote: rolik2
        So he already has them


        Of course, and "not already" but a very long time ago, since the 90s. Let them build their own J-11 (Su-27), but let them not dream of Su-35.

        Quote: rolik2
        And for what money to develop it then?


        How on what ?! Su-30MKI, MK2 we don’t deliver to anyone ??? That's what money comes from. There is money, yes there would be a desire ... recourse

        Quote: rolik2
        Somehow this phrase is not combined with the previous


        We must follow the Soviet tradition. When the MiG-29 was created, they did not immediately shove it to Cuba, Korea, India. At the beginning, they were accepted into the Soviet Air Force (1984) and then export began (since 1987). The Russian Federation began to export, before that it was in service with the USSR for 27 years and was not sold to anyone. With our "7 ++" and "4" we must go in the same direction.
    2. servant
      servant 7 February 2014 19: 27
      0
      They already produce SU-27, they don’t buy junk ...
  43. samoletil18
    samoletil18 7 February 2014 14: 08
    +1
    the Chinese side requires a change in the export appearance of the aircraft
    And why don’t you immediately give all the design bureau with the plant?
    1. supertiger21
      supertiger21 7 February 2014 14: 27
      +3
      Quote: samoletil18
      And why don’t you immediately give all the design bureau with the plant?


      And Poghosyan as a gift ... laughing Will help in the creation of the fifth generation ...
  44. Mihail29
    Mihail29 7 February 2014 14: 13
    0
    If, I’m not mistaken, then 160-200 T-50s are planned for our Air Force. If 200 cars enters the army and there will be a second order for 200-250 T-50, then I think we can discuss the terms of the deal with the Chinese on the SU-35.
    1. supertiger21
      supertiger21 7 February 2014 14: 29
      +1
      Quote: Michael29
      160-200 T-50 cars.


      About this number I hear for the first time request It seems to be said that there will be 60 PAK FA by 2020. Moreover, India is going to sell 3-4 times more planes, from 180 to 250 T-50 units.
  45. samoletil18
    samoletil18 7 February 2014 14: 14
    0
    Maybe we'd better wait until China copies the Raptor and buy a copy from them.
    1. supertiger21
      supertiger21 7 February 2014 14: 37
      +1
      Quote: samoletil18
      while China copies the Raptor, and buy a copy from them.


      They will not be able. I will give a simple example, imagine that the F-22 is a wolf. So its Chinese copy will be just a "sheep in wolf's clothing." wassat laughing
      1. VAF
        VAF 7 February 2014 15: 04
        +3
        Quote: supertiger21
        .So its Chinese copy will simply be "a sheep in a wolf's clothing"


        Everywhere +! And that ... just "killed" laughing ..five minutes under the table .... drinks
        1. supertiger21
          supertiger21 7 February 2014 15: 26
          +1
          Quote: vaf
          Everywhere +!


          And you too! drinks
  46. scientist
    scientist 7 February 2014 15: 05
    +1
    I would like to know more precisely what upgrade of the Su-35 the Chinese want to make. Most likely this is due to the on-board equipment and computing systems on which all the control of the aircraft is tied. This is the hardest part to copy. Algorithms, hardwired into microcircuits, are almost impossible to get.
  47. Dezot
    Dezot 7 February 2014 15: 29
    +1
    That's great, that did not agree good
  48. theadenter
    theadenter 7 February 2014 15: 58
    +1
    Let them agree, but only when the Su-35 becomes obsolete.
    True, you can not give them a reason for independent development. They will take up research and write is gone.
  49. Antibrim
    Antibrim 7 February 2014 17: 54
    0
    I really hope that they never agree! these photocopiers again blindfold their copies, buy 24 pieces, for example, make 240 and still drive for export. standard circuit
  50. delfinN
    delfinN 7 February 2014 18: 25
    0
    They bought us gas at the price of gas and still bargained, now they are driving the same bullshit with 35. Chukchi should be the main bidder: mine doesn’t understand yours, pay the lope of a robe said.