Still, the mysterious thing - pricing

You look the next state purchases of the Ministry of Defense and you are surprised. For example, tender for the purchase of 610 radio stations portable vhf band P-168-0,5UM

One radio station costs 873 759 rubles 76 kopecks with 3 warranty years of operation.

The rationale for the price is the following (the only supplier):
Information (information) of manufacturers (suppliers) on prices for goods, works, services
- the answer from 16.08.2013 No. 376 / 6264, according to which the unit price is 874 616 rubles 00 cop. (VAT included);
The manufacture and supply of portable radio stations is provided for by the state defense order for the 2014 year and for the planned period of 2015, 2016.

Based on the analysis of the customer, the cost reduction relative to the price of the commercial proposal for the radio stations of the portable VHF band P-168-0,5UM was made in accordance with the requirements of the order of the Ministry of Economic Development of Russia from 16.04.2008 No. XXUMX and the letter of the Ministry of Economic Development of Russia from 104 No. XXUMX-AK / DOZk (reduction of profit) from the calculation: no more than 09.10.2012% for own costs in production and no more than 21684% for imported costs) and amounted to 20 rubles.

As a result of applying the method of direct calculation for cost items, taking into account the size of the profit (no more than 20% + 1%), the customer sets the price per unit of goods:
- Portable VHF radio stations P-168-0,5UM (ITNI.464511.029TU3, ITNYA.464511.029-17.01, delivery kit ITNYA.464511.151-32, in the package IKMS.464956.011) - 873 759 rubles 76 cop. (VAT included).

There are also tenders for similar radio stations (type P-168-0,5U), which are already cheaper - 756 995 rubles 89 kopecks per set.

At the same time, the mobile radio station VHF band P-168-25U-2 estimated total 866 164 ruble.

Comments

[Clueless]

profit reduction based on: no more than 20% of own costs in production and no more than 1% of introduced costs - with such calculations, small-scale military production will be corny not profitable, and it will not work to develop production

if you want to, you don’t want to, but you need to overestimate the cost of production at times, because otherwise you will not keep talented engineers in your production, etc. All the same, they are not being collected in the garage, the staff is not small, renting land, premises, investing in new developments, etc.

[military]

Quote: Bad

All the same, they are not being collected in the garage, the staff is not small, renting land, premises, investing in new developments, etc.

if only for this ...
cottages ... Lexuses ... saunas with girls ...
everything requires investment ...

[maxvik]

There is such a moment. But it's not that. Look at the hands. pricing standards for state orders and staff of enterprises of performers. Outright right. There are no systematic orders, but people need to be held, plus spending on maintaining licenses and the material base. Hence the price.

[Refund_SSSR]

What kind of nonsense? In your opinion, “Sarapul Radio Plant” produces only these unfortunate radio stations and lives through it?

SRZ OJSC produces products of a new generation of military communications equipment for wheeled and tracked combat vehicles and other mobile objects, including VHF and KB tactical communications radio stations of the Arbalet and Akveduk complexes, dual-use radio stations.

Production
Mobile stations of HF, VHF bands
Transportable multichannel VHF radio stations
Wearable radio stations HF, VHF bands
Command post vehicles and their components
Antennas and antenna mast devices
DRM Receivers
Medical equipment
Training classes and training programs
Cable Television Fiber Optic Blocks
Universal transportable technical equipment kits for border guard service

Technologies
PCB manufacturing
Surface mount components
Plastic Injection
Machining
Chemical galvanic production
Foundry
Stamping production
Tool Production
Test station

[maxvik]

Did you read this on the site? So similar advertising on the website of each enterprise is written. It is a pity the year of development is not written and the total number of products sold, only real))))

[Refund_SSSR]

In other sectors (non-military), complex systems of individual production on an individual project are cheaper than a small series here - this is nonsense, which can not be explained by anything.

Quote: maxvik

So similar advertising on the website of each enterprise is written.

Not just for the sake of beauty, I also brought plant technologies ... Such technologies are needed not only by military customers, so you don’t have to blame everything on rare orders from the defense industry.
But outside the military, no one needs such prices with dubious quality and dubious reliability and for nothing ... So blame the factory workers for the problems of the factory workers.
It is necessary to optimize production! Unify! And then you do not need to create a separate assembly line for each position, but just fold it as a child’s designer from ready-made unified elements. Here, with the old-fashioned method, everything is produced ...

[maxvik]

Here we are. Well then this plant does not fit into the existing system and, it turns out, it is necessary to disperse it. And there it is written according to what technological standards these boards do, what is the accuracy of machining, etc.? He will not be able to compete in the market. The same small specialized private enterprises make printed circuit boards better, cut iron better, organize prototyping and molding of plastic products. And so we come to a logical conclusion - we need to close or invest state money. Your suggestions?

[Refund_SSSR]

Yazh in my opinion wrote "It is necessary to optimize production."
Or does the depreciation cost of the equipment not be included in the product price of this plant? So why update the old lines to the exact same old lines of the new year only?
This plant is not a budgetary organization and should not receive subsidies from the state or only from the state. This plant obeys the same laws of the market as those private traders with whom it cannot compete. Why does a private trader succeed, but a plant with more than a century of history does not succeed? or the private owner of the state is sponning ??? What is the logic?
Can then private owners order defense orders? What is the fundamental difference between stealing money from Serdyukov and women and the inefficient use of funds when buying radio stations? And in either case, the money goes the wrong way ...

[maxvik]

The logic is this: in order for the plant to become effective, it needs to reorient itself to civilian orders and cut staff by several times. But then he will lose the ability to fulfill the defense order. Yes, and he will not need it, because they were not regular. These very paths destroyed our industry. Do you offer this?
By paying such inadequate prices, the state allows many enterprises to stay afloat. So far, such an option. What you offer is not clear. How and under what to optimize production?

[military]

Quote: maxvik

But it's not that. Look at the hands. pricing standards for state orders and staff of enterprises of performers.

but why should I watch them ... the other day we finished calculating one of the products - the power unit ... about 35x30x15 cm in size ... on domestic ERIs of category "5" ... only one complete set with the acceptance of the VP pulled about 900 sput ... could be made on import ... it would be half the price ... but it will be exactly as the "doctor" prescribed in the technical specification ... expensive and with dubious reliability ...

[maxvik]

I agree, the same problems, only on the microwave element base.

[Ustas]

Quote: military

but, it will be exactly as the "doctor" prescribed in the TK ... expensive and with dubious reliability ...

Previously, everything was cheaper.

[avdkrd]

Quote: Bad

if you want to, you don’t want to, but you need to overestimate the cost of production at times, because otherwise you will not keep talented engineers in your production, etc. All the same, they are not being collected in the garage, the staff is not small, renting land, premises, putting funds into new developments, etc.

Everything is correct. How much "labor" the leaders of our country put into the collapse of the military-industrial complex. The only way to make relatively cheap weapons is to maintain the state's monopoly in this area. In this case, a serious cost reduction is possible while maintaining the financial motivation of employees at the private sector level, only by centralizing the order and efficient use of production capacities. Production facilities and research institutes should be purely state-owned. The private sector can participate in this as it grows up. The rhetoric about the "efficiency" of private enterprise is idle talk. An effective reward system for engineers, inventors and valuable specialists simply needs to be developed. Nobody bothers to buy know-how and entire systems on the side in the form of patents, licenses or individual nodes. The privatized defense industry is flawed, because the entrepreneur himself decides to produce something for him or not. It is elementary to disrupt the defense order by paying the required amount to the owner of the enterprise. Well, they will fine him for disrupting, well, they will deprive him of his license ... there is no article for sabotage. If we are talking about weapons of strategic importance, which of our Western "friends" will count the money? They spend billions on NGOs. Moreover, it is not necessary to directly arrange sabotage at a defense enterprise, it is enough to pay for the collapse of the production chain.

[Ustas]

Quote: Bad

All the same, they are not being collected in the garage, the staff is not small, renting land, premises, investing in new developments, etc.

And who will then defend these asses if they try to disgrace the army.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Bad

for otherwise they will not retain talented engineers in their production

If these engineers received decent salaries, or even the price of products in the clouds, and w / o tight. The main component of the price is kickbacks and bonuses to top managers.

[APASUS]

Quote: Bad

if you want to, you don’t want to, but you need to overestimate the cost of production at times, because otherwise you will not keep talented engineers in your production, etc.

Do not tell anyone do not need !!!
Here, just recently, Mikhail laid out a list of vacancies that are published on his website by the Bryansk Electromechanical Plant, which produces the Kraukha-4 electronic warfare complex.
Wonderful reading I will tell you. Http://bryanskemz.ru/vakansii.html

[makarov]

SW Denis.
Have you tried to send this to the website of the military prosecutor? Perhaps there are honest people looking there?

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: makarov

Perhaps there are honest people looking there?

The joker however.

[small]

"The VHF radio station of the R-168-25U-2 range is estimated at only 866 rubles."
Isn't it easier to buy a satellite phone, which costs 30 times cheaper.

[alone]

It’s even easier to buy radio stations from Israel or Turkish Aselsan. All this equipment is embedded in a walkie-talkie with the size of a mobile phone.

[predator.3]

One radio station costs 873 759 rubles 76 kopecks with 3 warranty years of operation.

This is nonsense! the price of an average foreign car, satellite phones will be cheaper!

[kind]

One radio station costs 873 759 rubles 76 kopecks with 3 warranty years of operation.

what's so surprising The case is made of 999.9 sample gold, the screen is protected by natural sapphire, 500 carat diamond buttons, 1000 call melodies from the most famous composers, each copy has Serdyukov’s personal autograph, and 13% VAT. So it’s not even very expensive!

[NOMADE]

Quote: Good

One radio station costs 873 759 rubles 76 kopecks with 3 warranty years of operation.

what's so surprising The case is made of 999.9 sample gold, the screen is protected by natural sapphire, 500 carat diamond buttons, 1000 call melodies from the most famous composers, each copy has Serdyukov’s personal autograph, and 13% VAT. So it’s not even very expensive!

I agree .., this is perhaps the only adequate explanation, this is a "modest" price) They also forgot to mention that Skolkovo took part in the design and this is a mega-NANO product that "DOES NOT HAVE ANALOGUES IN THE WORLD !!!"
With this approach to cost ... it's scary to imagine the price of the Soldier of the Future kit ...

[pv1005]

I understand everything, small-scale production, salaries to talented managers and handouts to equally talented engineers, rollback, tackle, etc., etc. .. But what do they make of pure gold?

[viktor_ui]

Hmm ... price for 30 bucks of this device ??? ... or maybe you throw it in the ground and the wheels jump out of it and now you are rushing to the feats of arms and the wind of corruption (forgive the victory) ruffles the curls of debris from the MOs sitting on government orders ... maybe miracles of nanotechnology are there ... but we don’t know.

[Kyrgyz]

And the oligarchs are suckers on the "Vertu" - that's what you need to take

[nazgul-ishe]

They just forgot to put the comma in the right place.

[ale-x]

Tell me now .. Who should use such stations and what are the consequences of losing the device? At such a cost, the station is not just a soldier, even a contractor, but an officer is afraid to take it. Dusting these gizmos on the far shelf.

[igorspb]

When there is an order for 61000 radio stations, then it will cost 80000 rubles ...... The economy is the same for everyone ....

[vladsolo56]

You might think that they have only radio stations of this type in production, if an enterprise doesn’t produce anything anymore, then it turns out that it doesn’t produce anything at all, it just resells, hence the price. In my opinion, only a completely stupid one does not understand that today everyone is not too lazy to saw the military budget. The money is crazy and most importantly with impunity.

[viktor_ui]

The economy is the same for everyone ... you tell the top of the management and their approximates any bottling especially in terms of the formation of personal salaries. Yes, yes, we are all equal, but some
And the salaries of some equal ones can very much affect the cost of anything

[individual]

The scatter in prices and their inconsistency in the quality of goods and services is amazing.
Well, it would have been understandable in past centuries.
In the age of computer exchange and sophisticated gadgets, the ubiquitous advertising of everything, the whole difference in price tags is surprising.
The reason is not only the intermediaries in the producer-buyer chain, but the greed and omnivorousness of the criminal business, which K. Marx wrote about in the 18th century.
Centuries go by, but human nature does not change.

[Uncle lee]

An ordinary UHF radio station with a charger, a headset and a spare battery costs about 20 tr. VHF is significantly cheaper. But ETA ... Apparently very valuable, God forbid the enemy fall

[Jitel]

Yes, they freaked out, even with the ZAS equipment, with the condition of army requirements for impact resistance and water, with an underbarrel finger extensor and a laser phasing system, this device in production can not cost more than 200-300 thousand.

[stayer]

The data written in the article should be transmitted to the prosecutor. A radio station for the price of a bad car is nonsense.

[maxvik]

I assure you, the company will report by slipping to the prosecutor's office all the regulatory documents of the Moscow Region and other structures, based on which the cost of the product has been calculated.

[stayer]

I agree, but a bunch of resistors, a pair of microcircuits and a pair of coils can not be so much steamed. Everything is clear about the development, but not hundreds, after all, of thousands per VHF radio station.

[iv82an]

Quote: stayer

I agree, but a bunch of resistors, a pair of microcircuits and a pair of coils can not be so much steamed. Everything is clear about the development, but not hundreds, after all, of thousands per VHF radio station.

You're wrong. Domestic production of a liability gold mine. There is already IMHO rest, even the arms and drugs trade ... (look at the price of foreign analogues)

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: maxvik

slipping to the prosecutor’s office all the normative docs of MO

plus a rollback that is already included in the price of the radio station as an unplanned cost.

[Stinger]

If you order 1 piece, it will cost 8 lemons, dear Denis Mokrushin. Even wooden.

[Mikhail3]

Normal "military" pricing, accepted throughout the world. It is now a little quiet, and in the eighties, the Pentagon's purchases of hammers at $ 50 apiece were only thundering. On the one hand, splitting the budget with the help of military spending in peacetime is an old tradition respected throughout the world. On the other hand....
The plant is developing, for example, microwave lasers. Or communication devices that spit on the American tradition of stripping the radio range. Or something just as funny. How to finance it? So write in an expense article - on the connection of a new generation? So what? The most important information about new weapons or military equipment is information about the fact that it generally exists somewhere. After receiving such information, obtaining the data itself is already a technical matter.
What is it specifically - we do not know. Here's democracy. Destroy! The thieves! Shoot everything, then plant it, then hang it up !! But won't it turn out that we will "shoot" that very promising connection? Open all the secrets and secrets in a democratic way ... and then the easiest way will be to strangle yourself.

[maxvik]

Men, no need to smack a fever.
Now I’m looking for customers to develop an antenna rotary device for AFAR. I contact all the electro-mechanical plants known to us. Prices - download. More expensive than AFAR itself. But there is nothing surprising in this. I fully understand the leaders of these plants. We have a mess in the scientific and technical sector. Factories with an immense number of people should provide a series, and not engage in development. Moreover, the production load should be predictable. For development, compact KB is needed.
Plus, the number of all kinds of controlling organizations and issued (compelled to buy) licenses goes off scale. Depreciation, taxes, verification, etc. And everything needs money. And employees want to get a good salary, no worse than others.
And here is the order, for example, for 100 radio stations, that's it. Try to count on regulatory documents, get the same result.

[roller2]

Quote: maxvik

Men, no need to smack a fever.

Quote: maxvik

And here is the order, for example, for 100 radio stations, that's it. Try to count on regulatory documents, get the same result.

P-168-0,5


P-392


There is an interval of 40 years between these radio stations, but the level of performance has dropped to the level of a circle of amateur radio enthusiasts, and prices have skyrocketed. Tell me, how much can such a radio station cost?

[maxvik]

I explain again.
You think those who do this do not know anything and do not understand. The entire chain of development, production, and serial production of technological military products is broken and broken up. Well there was no funding.
1. There are requirements for the use of domestic element base in military equipment. Here is one of the consequences. There has recently been an article that we have with this business almost everything is wonderful. Look who pitted there.
2. Factories should not be engaged in the development of new products, this is not their business. But then you need competent people who organize the development process in one place and implementation in another, appreciate the scientific, technical and production capabilities. We need system engineers. Z0 years of a mess. Can you take it?
3. Well, if a circle of ham, so disperse and there is no problem. And then what? Imported to buy? Your suggestions?

[roller2]

Quote: maxvik

Imported to buy? Your suggestions?

That's it for that kind of money that you can buy more than 30 radio stations of imported production, and not 000 domestic, don’t understand what.
Can't do something normal suck.
And dismiss the army of hobbyists’s circle for the price of a good car, then it will cost more.

[maxvik]

Regarding the golden case and the satellite phone - men, you are rubbing nonsense, and she squeals cheerfully.
All these are consumer goods. Look at how much a cell phone and an anthologic in functionality industrial communicator with a shockproof and dustproof housing cost.
A military radio station must comply with a bunch of GOSTs, be accepted by military acceptance, and pass several types of tests, all in a half-starved, broken-up industry.
I agree - the situation is not normal. But before yelling heart-rendingly, it’s worth considering.

[roller2]

Quote: maxvik

All these are consumer goods.

8 years exploited as you say "consumer goods" Motorola R-080 worth 300 bucks. Reviews are only positive, in contrast to the products of the native military-industrial complex, by the way, produced in accordance with GOST and passed state acceptance.
The red price of the 1st set is a maximum of 500 bucks.

Quote: maxvik

how much is a cell phone and an anthologic in functionality industrial communicator with shockproof and dust and water tight housing.

Are you seriously trying to compare the above devices with the simplest VHF radio station?

[maxvik]

Quote: rolik2

8 years exploited as you say "consumer goods" Motorola R-080 worth 300 bucks. Reviews are only positive, in contrast to the products of the native military-industrial complex, by the way, produced in accordance with GOST and passed state acceptance.
The red price of the 1st set is a maximum of 500 bucks.

I agree with this, but the question is: did you operate the motorola in the military units of the RF Armed Forces? If so, how did she get there?

Quote: rolik2

Are you seriously trying to compare the above devices with the simplest VHF radio station?

I generally did not compare them by functional.

[iv82an]

Quote: maxvik

I agree with this, but the question is: did you operate the motorola in the military units of the RF Armed Forces? If so, how did she get there?

Just like here.
taken from the official site
http://www.icom-russia.ru/product/icom/ic-r8500.htm

[maxvik]

I do not quite understand your answer. it is either incomplete or off topic.

[iv82an]

Have you exploited a motorola in the military units of the RF Armed Forces?

This is the answer to part of your question.
If you follow the link http://www.icom-russia.ru/product/icom/ic-r8500.htm-
"Receiver IC-R8500 is used in special-purpose complexes ORION 3C (developed by GKB SVYAZ)"

GKB Communications produces the following products
http://www.gkbsviaz.ru/Production

Maybe my answer is not the topic, but it seemed to me your surprise in the use of foreign equipment in the RF Armed Forces.
Of course, the picture is not a wearable VHF motorola radio station. But another Japanese HF scanner.

[maxvik]

No wonder.
Then why do we need our industry? And our elemental base, etc. on the chain.
I don’t even argue with you. Often, they do it at a low quality, for a long time, expensively, but there are reasons for this and you need to understand them.

[roller2]

Quote: maxvik

No wonder.
Then why do we need our industry? And our elemental base, etc. on the chain.
I don’t even argue with you. Often, they do it at a low quality, for a long time, expensively, but there are reasons for this and you need to understand them.

And why the hell are you sorting it out? In such cases, it’s easier to buy normal equipment than to feed your loafers. And then look and NORMAL things at the normal price will begin to do their work, and not push hackwork on guaranteed contracts.

[maxvik]

And with what they will start to do NORMAL things? The invisible hand of the market? It happened before. What else?

[Jitel]

No, actually, after reading about the radio station http://www.elektrosignal.ru/index.php?a=6&id=50&categ=1 and the terms of the order http://zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/ info / common_info / show? notificatio
nId = 8056580
It turns out that 873759 rubles / unit, the price is certainly high, BUT this is the initial (highest) auction price. It will just be necessary to follow the fate of this order and if something does not work out, we write to the supervisory authorities and the result of the auction is canceled and clarifications begin who wanted to saw what and how.

[desertfox]

Indeed, the manufacturer of the radio station has nothing to do with it.
The initial price is determined by the buyer, and it is not a fact that the radio stations will be bought at this price, but the rationale for such an initial price is already very muddy.

[military]

Quote: Jitel

if something doesn’t work out, we write to the supervisory authorities and the auction result is canceled and clarifications begin who wanted to saw what and how.

just as simple ...

[Ustas]

Never mind the price of an imported SUV. Manufacturers of cool ...

[Airman]

Quote: Ustas

Never mind the price of an imported SUV. Manufacturers of cool ...

No, they ate the ear, and did not choke on the bone.

[Stinger]

1 sq. m of living space in Moscow as 2 imported SUVs. And no one says, they say, a pile of bricks, but it costs so much. Do not want, do not take. This is not a public enterprise. They themselves made defense enterprises of JSC, LLC, and ZAO from state enterprises. And there the managers are effective. Stripped to the skin.

[Ustas]

Quote: Stinger

1 sq. m of living space in Moscow as 2 imported SUVs. And no one says, they say, a pile of bricks, but it costs so much. Do not want, do not take.

Well, I don’t take it. Just what are pieces of bricks in Moscow and radio stations for defense? Things are not comparable.

[Mosen6Ish]

Once I attended the presentation of the manufacturer of LED lamps. On the question of the price, the answer was given - if for the "people" `` 300 rubles, if for the military - for 1000 rubles. When asked why? - answered simply - the military forces the products to "declare conformity" to a whole bunch of operating conditions, including a nuclear explosion ... and each "conformity" requires additional expenses. That's why it's worth it.

[maxvik]

Completely in the hole). And the adversaries have a similar situation, military class products - you just can’t buy it and it costs a lot.