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  1. klimpopov
    klimpopov 25 October 2013 09: 13
    15

    Thanks for the photo to the author, good shots.
    1. Kars
      Kars 25 October 2013 12: 33
      11
      The selection is excellent, but can the author drop the link to the archive?


      I’ll add a couple of photos from my collection.
      1. il grand casino
        il grand casino 25 October 2013 12: 36
        +9
        They look good ... when not on our land. And on ours only if burnt out))
      2. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 25 October 2013 21: 03
        0
        Quote: Kars
        I’ll add a couple of photos from my collection.

        Apollo is walking somewhere, then I’ll insert a video, by chance, weren't you voicing? Running is good, Challenger 2 is almost the same.
        1. Kars
          Kars 25 October 2013 21: 11
          +3
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          2 wallet is almost the same.

          It was not I who voiced it. I am in Ukrainian about how Azarov can speak.
          As for the suspension - then Leo torsion, Chelen 2 hydropneumatic.
          1. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 25 October 2013 23: 53
            0
            Quote: Kars
            As for the suspension - then Leo torsion, Chelen 2 hydropneumatic

            Yes, I wrote it wrong crying , the Germans developed a hydropneumatic suspension for Leopard, but it turned out that it turns out to be more expensive than the calculated budget and settled on torsion bars, I read in a Swedish article that the British took this development on Challenger 2, I don’t argue how much this corresponds to reality. Why did you call Leopard and not Boar? Do you have such a picture?
            1. saturn.mmm
              saturn.mmm 26 October 2013 13: 28
              0
              Quote: saturn.mmm
              Yes, I wrote it wrong

              Between 1972 and 1974, the year 16 hulls and 17 towers of the Leopard 2 were built. Ten prototypes equipped 105-millimeter rifled gun, and the rest - 120-millimeter smooth-bore guns of the company Rheinmetall. Two cars used hydropneumatic suspension. However, in the end, designers preferred an improved torsion bar.That's where it is.
        2. Apollo
          Apollo 25 October 2013 21: 11
          +3
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          Apollo is walking somewhere, then I'll insert a video


          You are mistaken, I was very busy, and now I carefully and intently monitor all comments without exception.
          1. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 25 October 2013 23: 58
            +1
            Quote: Apollon
            You are mistaken, I was very busy

            Late, it all happened already request
      3. bamboo
        bamboo 4 January 2014 20: 26
        0
        Welcome.
        I feel that they will soon cut down all the Christmas trees in Germany at landfills.)))))))))))))
    2. Kars
      Kars 25 October 2013 12: 34
      +1
      _____________________
    3. Kars
      Kars 25 October 2013 12: 34
      +2
      _________________
    4. Kars
      Kars 25 October 2013 12: 36
      +3
      ____________
      1. il grand casino
        il grand casino 25 October 2013 12: 38
        +5
        Photos for those who like to speculate that in Europe vehicles with good cross-country ability are not needed ... they say there is a circle of roads, and there is no dirt ...))
        1. Abracadabra
          Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 07
          0
          Type T-90 has better cross-country ability .. In such a swamp you can drive a T90 and take a picture.
    5. Kars
      Kars 25 October 2013 12: 39
      +5
      Greek
      + + + + + + + + + +
    6. klimpopov
      klimpopov 25 October 2013 12: 39
      +1
      Moders halved koment)))))))))
    7. Walker1975
      Walker1975 25 October 2013 23: 39
      0
      To the author plus. Beautiful cats. But it’s right that it’s not on our land.
  2. Sashkessss
    Sashkessss 25 October 2013 09: 27
    15
    Useful car, cool frames, only the dimensions of the tower kill
    1. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 25 October 2013 09: 45
      +3
      yes, the machine is not urban ....
      1. Abracadabra
        Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 08
        0
        And what city, if not Leo2A7 +?
  3. Gur
    Gur 25 October 2013 09: 32
    +6
    Che did not understand the hell .. why are they all different, is this not one tank? or is the front bevels on the tower optional, and the right angles on the frontal armor of the tower a tribute to German tradition?
    1. Akhtuba73
      Akhtuba73 25 October 2013 09: 50
      +9
      Genes take their toll ... in profile and rushing Tigrine inheritance, especially the silhouette of the body. I'm afraid tradition has nothing to do with it. MG on the tower, still the skull of the "Dead Head" on the black takes a tanker ... frost on the skin, genetic memory cannot be turned off
      1. Abracadabra
        Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 11
        +1
        Leo1 and 2 were created by the same people in part, the same design bureau (n.p. Porsche), which was the case when Tiger2 was ripened.
    2. bistrov.
      bistrov. 25 October 2013 10: 05
      +1
      Quote: GUR
      Why are they all different, is this not one tank?

      One tank, Leopard-2, different models. From Leopard-2A1 to Leopard-2A6, which is currently in service with Germany. Earlier models are actively sold abroad.
      1. hiocraib
        hiocraib 25 October 2013 10: 35
        +3
        Quote: bistrov.
        Tank one, Leopard-2, models are different. From Leopard-2A1 to Leopard-2A6

        ahh, killed!
        Canadian Leo-1 A5C did not run? laughing

        photos a big minus, the author didn’t even bother to copy photo captions from the network!
      2. During
        During 25 October 2013 16: 48
        +1
        The tank is not alone, in the photo (from real, not toy) and Leopard-1 and Leopard-2 of various modifications.
      3. Abracadabra
        Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 13
        0
        There has not been a single Leo2A1 .., there haven’t even been such in nature for already 20+ years .. The active, most unloved Leopards are Leo2A4 ... There are also Leo2A7 + in the pictures, they are equipped with the Bundeswehr.
    3. Abracadabra
      Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 10
      0
      There in the pictures, not only Leo2, but Leo1A5M .. What does Leo2 also have different modifications, from Leo2A4 to Leo2A7 + ..
  4. Romanychby
    Romanychby 25 October 2013 09: 34
    -1
    I agree :) And the author is malorik. Thank you for the info.
  5. Andreitas
    Andreitas 25 October 2013 09: 37
    +3
    Good photos. My son has such a toy tank. smile
  6. Dimon-chik-79
    Dimon-chik-79 25 October 2013 09: 49
    +2
    Vesch! The Germans are able to do cars! don't take away
    In Afghanistan, I look at the armor, they didn’t really trust theirs, they fastened the lattices nevertheless, in German such neat pancake
    1. Dezzed
      Dezzed 25 October 2013 10: 07
      +2
      the tank may be good, but who knows?
      not tested in battle (I won’t protect for a tank)

      and at the expense of gratings checked. they do not help much, well, maybe they calm the team a little.

      in 1982, in Beirut, Israeli tanks were ridiculed by RPGs from the roofs of houses and above them there were no more grills ...
      1. ATATA
        ATATA 25 October 2013 10: 37
        +6
        Quote: DezzeD
        in 1982, in Beirut, Israeli tanks were ridiculed by RPGs from the roofs of houses and above them there were no more grills ...

        There are more recent examples of the defeat of Israeli armored units PARTICIPANTS!!
        1. Dezzed
          Dezzed 25 October 2013 15: 49
          +4
          And what is behind the words "defeat" and "partisans"?
          1. vahatak
            vahatak 25 October 2013 16: 20
            +3
            Like what? The rout is a scratch from a stone on the tank body, and the partisans are Palestinian children who throw the very stones.
            Then the kids will grow up, and a dent from the RPG grenade will appear on the tank hull.
            1. ATATA
              ATATA 26 October 2013 22: 13
              0
              Quote: vahatak
              Like what? The rout is a scratch from a stone on the tank body, and the partisans are Palestinian children who throw the very stones.

              laughing
              Do you say kids? laughing
              The stones? laughing
              Where are such stones sold? laughing
              Picture of 1982. Judging by the BC tower.
              If you persist, then lay out on the topic.
              1. vahatak
                vahatak 27 October 2013 19: 41
                +1
                Read carefully:
                Quote: ATATA
                Then the kids will grow up, and a dent from the RPG grenade will appear on the tank hull.

                I hope this comment is considered persistence, because it is very interesting to see what you have on the topic.
          2. ATATA
            ATATA 26 October 2013 22: 09
            0
            Quote: DezzeD
            And what is behind the words "defeat" and "partisans"?

            Behind the words defeat are disabled PARTICIPANTS in 4 days more than 50 tanks of the Israeli army.
      2. OffenroR
        OffenroR 25 October 2013 16: 34
        0
        Quote: DezzeD
        the tank may be good, but who knows?
        not tested in battle (I won’t protect for a tank)

        and at the expense of gratings checked. they do not help much, well, maybe they calm the team a little.

        in 1982, in Beirut, Israeli tanks were ridiculed by RPGs from the roofs of houses and above them there were no more grills ...

        They have come ... now the Jews claim that they are even better at military technology than the Germans do ... dreaming is not harmful ... wink
        1. Dezzed
          Dezzed 25 October 2013 17: 00
          +3
          I just wanted to note modestly that the Jews are trying their technique in battle. e.g. battle near Sultan Yaakub 1982 Lebanon

          Israeli tanks and infantry fought 91 and 76 Syrian tanks. div and with 58 fur. div

          that is, the battle was tank. for Israel, the losses were high (in exile). the tanks were tested in battle, conclusions were drawn, experience gained.
          .

          and when did the Germans have the last tank battle?

          tanks do they do but check how? in the dash?


          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sultan_Yacoub
          1. vahatak
            vahatak 25 October 2013 19: 42
            +3
            The Germans had their last combat experience for a long time, because everyone knows that they have the best equipment and a powerful army, and no one is climbing. Here you will have the same successes, too, everything will lag behind Israel.
            1. OffenroR
              OffenroR 25 October 2013 22: 41
              +1
              Where did you see the Germans? belay According to my reliable sources, they have already died out ... The world said goodbye to them ... we will not see more blond scum beast tonguein their place now black-ass Afro-Negroes and Turks with their kebabs. Yellowfish from the east are also on their way ...
              1. vahatak
                vahatak 25 October 2013 23: 33
                +3
                I saw the Germans in Armenia, since I myself have not been to Germany, but they themselves were alive and healthy, with white skin and blond hair. True, they were not bastards or beasts, but quite normal, educated villains.
                1. catapractic
                  catapractic 25 October 2013 23: 43
                  +1
                  yes, yes, the Germans are a cultural nation ... 1941 ... remember, remember, how.
                  1. vahatak
                    vahatak 25 October 2013 23: 52
                    +1
                    I was asked where I saw the Germans, I answered. What is the problem? Why immediately 41 years? The Germans I saw were very cultural. And if they were once enemies, this does not mean that they are becoming extinct, they have no success and cannot be, and they are all Nazis.
              2. Abracadabra
                Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 22
                0
                81mio of the population live in Germany .. Of these, 3mio. Turks .. Only 5mio Muslims .. Afronegrots are exotic, you can shove on the fingers. About 3mio Russian-speaking ..
            2. Patton5
              Patton5 25 October 2013 22: 44
              +1
              about the success of Germany more stop you are welcome!!!
              1. vahatak
                vahatak 25 October 2013 23: 36
                +1
                Quote: Patton5
                about the success of Germany please more details !!!

                I think the success of Germany is well known. If you are interested in the military aspect, then in two world wars they proved that no country can cope with them alone, and even with defeat they inflicted much more damage to the opponents than they themselves. I don’t know about you, but after that I don’t want to face them again.
                As for German technology, it is enough to look around on the street to understand what's what.
                1. Corsair
                  Corsair 26 October 2013 00: 16
                  +3
                  Quote: vahatak
                  I think the success of Germany is well known. If you are interested in the military aspect, then in two world wars they proved that no country can cope with them alone
                  You think incorrectly, if the USSR did not have allies in the Second World War, We would still WIN.

                  Of course, at the cost of even greater losses, BUT WINS ...
                  1. vahatak
                    vahatak 26 October 2013 01: 37
                    -4
                    I do not know what would happen if ....
                    I know what it was.
                    1. poquello
                      poquello 26 October 2013 01: 53
                      +4
                      Quote: vahatak
                      I do not know what would happen if ....
                      I know what it was.

                      rzhunimagu Tell me at least one country alone according to your theory won.
                      1. vahatak
                        vahatak 26 October 2013 13: 58
                        +1
                        My theory is precisely that the Germans defeated anyone one by one, and defeated them only with the advantage.
                      2. OffenroR
                        OffenroR 26 October 2013 16: 15
                        0
                        Quote: poquello
                        Quote: vahatak
                        I do not know what would happen if ....
                        I know what it was.

                        rzhunimagu Tell me at least one country alone according to your theory won.

                        Magna Germany ... the battle in the Teutoburg Forest ... three legions were completely defeated and destroyed by the Germanic tribes (which for the Romans before that were something like the Papuans). Magna Germany was the only territory that the Roman Empire wanted to capture, but could not ...
                    2. smile
                      smile 26 October 2013 02: 11
                      +6
                      vahatak
                      Well, the fact was that the Germans, with the codes of their allies, put up more soldiers against us than we opposed them.
                      According to the losses, even taking into account the defeats 41-42, we came out about one to one (without taking into account the atrocities against the civilian population and prisoners of war). They beat us at the beginning, we beat them afterwards, and they started to beat them when their coalitions were great in terms of human resources. That’s all.
                      Naturally, no one belittles the fighting ability of the Wehrmacht, like trampling all the strongest armies of Europe on the continent, but about the fact that they inflicted much greater losses on us than we did to them. If we treated them in the same way that they would not have left us Germans.
                      1. vahatak
                        vahatak 26 October 2013 14: 09
                        -3
                        Quote: smile
                        Well, it was that the Germans with the codena of their allies

                        Let's list:
                        Italy, Romania, Finland, Bulgaria, Albania. add if you missed someone, but do not forget the opponents of Germany: Poland, Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, France, England, Yugoslavia, Greece. it is only in Europe and only BEFORE the attack on the USSR, and then in the anti-Hitler coalition there were already 26 states.
                        Quote: smile
                        put up more soldiers against us

                        I will not comment on this at all, but I will wait when you bring the facts.
                        Quote: smile
                        In terms of losses, even taking into account the defeats 41-42, we came out about one to one

                        Only until December 41st, the Red Army lost 4 (four million) soldiers, the Wehrmacht - less than one million. About one to one (from 000-000 to 1-1,2) was the result of the whole war.
                      2. revnagan
                        revnagan 26 October 2013 15: 37
                        +3
                        Quote: vahatak
                        Italy, Romania, Finland, Bulgaria, Albania. add if you missed someone,

                        Forgotten Hungarians. Spantsev ("Glubaya division").
                        "don't forget the opponents of Germany: Poland, Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, France, England, Yugoslavia, Greece": vahatak:
                        By June 22, 1941, the following were defeated and partially (or completely) occupied: Poland, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, Greece. This is in Europe and only before the attack on the USSR. The industry of these states worked for Germany. The armaments of these statehood went to the Wehrmacht (Lufwaffe and Kriegsmarine). The military industry of these countries armed Germany with excellent weapons throughout the war. The USSR fought against: Norwegian, Dutch, French
                      3. vahatak
                        vahatak 26 October 2013 16: 10
                        -1
                        Thank you for the Hungarians for reminding us, but the blue division was voluntary, Spain did not fight with anyone.
                        The fact that the Germans defeated the enemies in parts is a merit of the German diplomats and strategists. No one held the French hand in 1939 or the hand of the USSR in 1940. Smart people start a war when it is profitable for them, and there is nothing to be ashamed of.
                      4. Day 11
                        Day 11 26 October 2013 16: 20
                        +2
                        Franco was forced to set up a division (due, understand), but volunteers were traveling to the Eastern Front, I agree.
                      5. revnagan
                        revnagan 26 October 2013 21: 59
                        +1
                        Quote: vahatak
                        Thank you for the Hungarians

                        Be a caress (please in Ukrainian). Well, what about the anti-Hitler coalition? And the participation of Poland and other listed states in it? How much is left of 26 and who are they?
                      6. vahatak
                        vahatak 27 October 2013 19: 48
                        +2
                        Quote: revnagan
                        Well, what about the anti-Hitler coalition?

                        No one denies that there was little use from them, but much less sense from Germany's allies. Suffice it to recall the "successes" of Italy and their "invaluable help" to the Germans, who constantly rescued them in Africa, in Greece, then in Italy itself. And it was still the most powerful ally. I don't want to talk about Romanians and Bulgarians at all.
                        Conclusion: when we say that Germany attacked the USSR together with the allies, we must not forget about the allies of the USSR, which were much stronger than the allies of Germany.
                2. OffenroR
                  OffenroR 26 October 2013 15: 44
                  -2
                  vahatak, you and I seem to have the same opinions about the Great Patriotic War ...

                  As for the topic ... modern jingoistic patriots (who read no less “hurray” books of Soviet times) have forgotten the price of victory ... For them, there are those millions of Soviet wars who died defending their homeland only because in relation to the Germans , they died "impermissibly" a lot.
                3. smile
                  smile 27 October 2013 01: 14
                  +2
                  vahatak
                  I’m tired of already writing on this topic and generally writing today :))). Are you not able to count the troops yourself before you start responding?
                  Let's go like this:
                  we called under arms about 34 million. The active army sent about 24 million, this is when you consider the war with Japan.
                  The Germans put under arms from 21 to 24 million soldiers according to various sources (pedagogy speaks of over 21 million).
                  Further, Romania - over a million, Hungary - over a million, Finland - I do not remember the constant average number of their army - 550-600 thousand.
                  What about volunteers? There are 60 thousand more Poles in our captivity (taken in the ranks of the Germans) than the Italians, I doubt it very much. that the Poles surrendered to us more readily than the Italians. Czechs took even more, about 70 thousand, 150 thousand Austrians. even more than 20 thousand Yugoslavs. I hope you understand. what did we not capture all?
                  Even the insignificant hundred thousandth Luxembourg gave the Germans 10 thousand soldiers, over one and a half thousand of which were captured by us ....
                  Can you imagine. what number is being recruited? the same Dutch. The Danes and Norwegians died more in a fight with us. than at the hands of the Germans during the capture with us and for the entire period of occupation, yes they were more willing to fight against us. than against Hitler ... In general, consider for yourself, this is interesting. All material is publicly available. In the process of counting you will learn a lot. I am not kidding.
                  And about the losses, about one to one is obtained. if you do not take into account the prisoners of war who died in captivity.
                  Only in December 41 - early January, only the Germans lost 120 thousand soldiers in battles with the Soviet troops (we are 140), this is more than they lost during the capture of almost all of Europe in almost two years of the war. And this is 41 years old. Draw conclusions. And consider yourself there are a lot of sources, to calculate and justify in the comments, it is impossible in principle.
            3. Patton5
              Patton5 26 October 2013 13: 15
              +1
              None of which you know, this is evident from your comments!
              1. vahatak
                vahatak 26 October 2013 14: 11
                0
                But you know for sure that the Germans did not and could not be. Of course.
              2. Patton5
                Patton5 27 October 2013 10: 38
                0
                And who needs these successes ??? If the result is defeat and the collapse of the country! Not finished off the Nazis, in order to at least somehow justify themselves? And the general frost interfered with them, and Hitler interfered with them, and the territory of Russia is too large, and the economy did not stretch, etc. and so on .... We have such a proverb "a bad dancer's legs get in the way." No matter how they "Europeans" get rid of, the result is always the same (they rake off the tinsel) Proved by history !!!!
              3. vahatak
                vahatak 28 October 2013 11: 20
                +1
                Quote: Patton5
                And who needs these successes ??? If the result is a defeat and the collapse of the country!

                And who needs a victory in the Great Patriotic War, if the USSR collapsed, Germany went to bed, zigging people walk around Moscow (if not physically, then mentally and mentally sick), and the president of Russia (and not only Russia) drives a Mercedes?
            4. Patton5
              Patton5 27 October 2013 10: 48
              0
              But we deviated from the subject of the dispute. Objectively, than leopard 2 is better than its classmates (challenger2, laclerc, abrams m1a2) so in two sentences ... And it turns out that it’s the best in the world because I believe that it is the best in the world or maybe because it is squarer than everyone else Do you like the correct forms?
            5. vahatak
              vahatak 27 October 2013 19: 56
              +1
              Quote: Patton5
              Objectively, than leopard 2 is better than its classmates (challenger2, laclerc, abrams m1a2) so in two sentences ...

              I would not respect myself if I said somewhere that some kind of tank is the very best and there is nothing better in the world than it. And even less I respect those who conduct a comparative analysis of four tanks in two sentences.
    2. OffenroR
      OffenroR 26 October 2013 14: 31
      -1
      Did you read that the marshals of the USSR spoke about the supply of supplies and equipment from overseas and Britain?

      The Soviet Union was able to stop the Germans because of the strategic mistakes of the Germans. They were inevitable on such a vast territory (Bismarck spoke about this at the time).
      Quote: Corsair
      Of course, at the cost of even greater losses, BUT WINS ...

      As they begin to talk about the numerical superiority of the USSR over Germany, they immediately begin to talk about “filling up with corpses.” In that war, the key advantage was not superiority in manpower ... but technology ... its quantity. Give you a table from which you you can find out how many Soviet and allied tanks and planes were on one German tank or plane (and then they immediately recall the qualitative superiority of the Germans (forgetting that before that everywhere they tried to find the Is-2 "cooler", etc.?))
      Imagine now that the Germans destroyed the oil fields of Baku and its coastal territories ... 90% of the "best" tanks and planes of the Second World War could not budge ...

      And yet they say it right ...the winner writes the story... not a small fraction of the truth was lost, just because it could harm. And now false historians like Rezun are teaching us "history".
  7. Dezzed
    Dezzed 26 October 2013 10: 10
    +2
    So let's draw the line: of two world wars, Germany lost both wars with catastrophic consequences for themselves!
    Is this not proof of the invincibility of the German troops !!!
    1. vahatak
      vahatak 26 October 2013 14: 15
      -1
      There are no invincible troops, but there are troops that are stronger or weaker than each other. The two wars were lost not by German troops, but by the German economy.
      At the expense of catastrophic results, one should not forget that the Germans rebuilt their country, for which they are worthy of respect, and some still do not remember only the war, since they do not see other successes.
    2. OffenroR
      OffenroR 26 October 2013 14: 40
      -4
      And the Jews "won the Second World War with disastrous results for themselves" .... how they plundered into the First World War ... from the Second, they probably expected the same ... and what did they wait? what would happen if not the USSR? Don’t know?
      .... find out.

      Ps The Germans lost the First World War not at the front ... but in the rear ... there were no resources, people were already dying of hunger, and the Jews "helped with what they could" ...
      1. Dezzed
        Dezzed 26 October 2013 15: 51
        +3
        first: Israel was not a warrior in both wars and there was no state at all

        second: "how they got into the First World War" - justify

        Quote: OffenroR
        Ps The First World Germans did not lose at the front ... but in the rear ... there were no resources


        since most wars are lost, the economy does not withstand the load. read at your leisure
      2. revnagan
        revnagan 26 October 2013 16: 01
        +1
        Quote: OffenroR
        Do you know what would happen if not for the USSR?

        Yes, nothing would have happened. The Nazis did not destroy Jews from the Western states, but simply "squeezed out" and evicted. Only "Soviet" Jews were subject to destruction. Read Dyukov, I am now reading "For what Soviet people fought." I guessed it, but in literature I met it for the first time. And on the bones of their "Soviet" fellow tribesmen, the Jews of Israel have been "raising" a multi-billion dollar gesheft for decades.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 26 October 2013 16: 12
          +1
          Y. Mukhin wrote about this. By the way, I also advise you to read
        2. revnagan
          revnagan 26 October 2013 22: 00
          +1
          Quote: Den 11
          Y. Mukhin wrote about this. By the way, I also advise you to read

          Thanks, be sure to read it.
  • Patton5
    Patton5 26 October 2013 13: 13
    +1
    And Germany is apparently alone in two world warriors ... Yes, and the warrior is not a sport, and the main victory is here, the generally known result showed who is worth what ... I don’t want to face them, but if they surrender they will row by the first number, as they did not once!!!!!!! hi
    1. OffenroR
      OffenroR 26 October 2013 14: 47
      -1
      Quote: Patton5
      they rake on the first day, as they raked more than once !!!!!!!


      Hasn't history taught that if in a war Germany starts to "rake off" ... then her opponents begin to "rake off" an order of magnitude more ... this is usually a rule.
  • OffenroR
    OffenroR 26 October 2013 13: 59
    0
    Quote: vahatak
    Quote: Patton5
    about the success of Germany please more details !!!

    I think the success of Germany is well known. If you are interested in the military aspect, then in two world wars they proved that no country can cope with them alone, and even with defeat they inflicted much more damage to the opponents than they themselves. I don’t know about you, but after that I don’t want to face them again.
    As for German technology, it is enough to look around on the street to understand what's what.


    You +. I agree with you. For example, in the Second World War until the end of 44 there was not a single major battle, from which the Germans came out with greater losses (total losses (do not remind me of Crete)) than the enemy.
  • Alexander D.
    Alexander D. 25 October 2013 22: 56
    +2
    Quote: vahatak
    The Germans had their last combat experience for a long time, because everyone knows that they have the best equipment and a powerful army, and no one is climbing. Here you will have the same successes, too, everything will lag behind Israel.

    And who is pestering Israel. This Israel (more precisely, its government) is climbing into all the cracks in the Middle East trying to impose its geopolitical influence. I have nothing personally against the Jews - any nation has the right to self-determination, but you need to be friends with your neighbors, and they have around them only enemies whom they brought to themselves!
    1. catapractic
      catapractic 25 October 2013 23: 45
      0
      live in a zoo and make friends with animals, soon a zoo will be formed in and around us, but I will not be friends with ...
  • OffenroR
    OffenroR 25 October 2013 22: 33
    0
    I don’t say at all that the Jews are making fig military equipment ... of these, the fighters are also not bad ... but not the level of Germans or Russians (for example).

    Quote: DezzeD
    and when did the Germans have the last tank battle?

    tanks do they do but check how? in the dash?

    Napoleon also thought when he attacked the German states and defeated their armies ... like, since the time of Frederick the Great, their army fell into decay ... subsequently, "tanning" on his "private" island, Napoleon probably more than once regretted that he had underestimated the enemy, only due to the fact that this very enemy "did not take his sword out of its scabbard for a long time," he recalled how the "Prussian hussars of death" slashed his elite ... the old guard at Waterloe.


    And do not forget that you are fighting almost with the Papuans ...
    1. Dezzed
      Dezzed 26 October 2013 10: 15
      0
      Arabs, of course, have not yet shown themselves at a high military level, but they are far from Papuans. it is precisely this and it is not up to the enemy to be evaluated. Israel did this in 1973 (not appreciated).
  • Akhtuba73
    Akhtuba73 26 October 2013 00: 18
    +3
    Quote: DezzeD
    and when did the Germans have the last tank battle?

    February-March 1945, Lake Balaton, Szekesfehervar, Hungary. This is where the Panzerwaffe’s last hope - the 6th SS Panzer Army - was significantly chopped up. After that, we can assume that until our time the Germans just ride.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 26 October 2013 00: 56
      +1
      Even later. This is a Karl-Heinz Turk machine (Tiger 2) from the 503rd SS heavy tank battalion in the Reich Chancellery. By the way, the well-known photo of the machine. KARS will probably be able to tell you the history of the last battle
      April 30 1945
    2. smile
      smile 26 October 2013 02: 25
      +2
      Akhtuba73
      Under the Balaton, the convoy, in the head of which went the battery of my grandfather (4 regiments +2 DShK in exchange for two more previously lost), ran into German self-propelled guns. They entered the battle from the wheels, both sides opened fire point blank. Grandfather had to get up to the gun, because part of the military ran and the Germans shot them all from machine guns. Strangely enough, the machine gunners did not run and beat the Germans until they were transferred by tanks.
      The battery went down all the way to the last person (grandfather got two holes) but burned 3 assault guns. Reading the award sheet, realizing what is hidden behind the standard lines, is creepy. So. that I have Lake Balaton causes a variety of associations.
      1. Akhtuba73
        Akhtuba73 26 October 2013 09: 39
        +1
        smile
        My grandfather's sister's husband (brother-in-law turns out) fought near Szekesfehervar, was shell-shocked. There is no grandfather for 23 years, and his brother-in-law and even more. When he was still alive I was a stupid kid (bicycles and a river), now I repent ... I try to know and remember even now.
        Your grandfather honor and respect. And they all bow deeply.
        1. smile
          smile 26 October 2013 09: 51
          +1
          Akhtuba73
          Mine, Dmitrenko, Mikhail Romanovich, passed away in December 98th ... and, although I also didn’t pay due attention to him from the 71st ... and he didn’t like to talk about it ... I remember, when I was little, I asked him an idiotic question-grandpa, and you killed the Nazis? He- I don’t know, granddaughters, shot .... any detail had to be literally scratched out ... he became older- my mother and I restored his military path and took it by attack - they say this or that ... and the award documents were under hand ... gave up and told ..... it hurts to remember about him ... until now ... a low bow to ALL of our grandfathers .... and it doesn’t matter whether they went to reconnaissance or the shells were brought up ....

          Thanks you....
          1. Akhtuba73
            Akhtuba73 26 October 2013 13: 49
            +1
            THANK YOU ...
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 20
    -1
    In Afghanistan, they tried to blow up Leo2 and landmines and bombarded them with RPGs. Only one dead driver and, in the Leo2A5 version, without anti-mine modernization, now the Danes are patrolling only on Leo2A5M. Because of the successful results in Afghanistan, Canada purchased a new batch of Leo2A5M and modernized the rest of the models.
  • il grand casino
    il grand casino 25 October 2013 17: 40
    +4
    Hmm ... I wonder why the Germans then buy it from Israel? ... And they themselves can not bring to mind their drones? ..
    1. OffenroR
      OffenroR 25 October 2013 22: 37
      +2
      But the Jews are buying submarines from the Germans ... now the Jews are not smart enough to bring submarines to mind? wassat
      But Israel has promoted that the best drones are made by them. Also, Israel has the "best" medicine in this and two neighboring galaxies ... but just like big bumps where anything gets sick, they gallop to Germany, and not to you.
      1. ayyildiz
        ayyildiz 25 October 2013 22: 43
        +4
        Д
        Quote: OffenroR
        And the Jews are buying submarines from the Germans ...

        Merkava engines are also German! If memory serves!
      2. Ascetic
        Ascetic 25 October 2013 23: 54
        +3
        Quote: OffenroR
        But the Jews are buying submarines from the Germans ... now the Jews are not smart enough to bring submarines to mind?

        And not only boats
        Just one fact. Almost 40% of the total number of permits for the export of weapons to Israel from Germany in 2007 were parts for tanks, armored combat vehicles and SUVs with special armor protection.
        . In 1986, one of the engineers at the AEG factory in Wedel (not far from Hamburg) managed to solve a very difficult problem: to ensure the invariance of the tank gun’s guidance, regardless of the terrain. He designed a device for stabilizing the tank turret, named in the LTDS technical documentation. From now on, when driving at maximum speed and on rough or impassable terrain, there was a 100% guarantee that the barrel was aimed exactly at the target, and this ensured its unconditional defeat. In the language of military experts, this method of combat use is referred to as: selective shooting from a tank at full speed. From that moment on, the Leopard-2 became one of the world leaders in its weapons class. However, the inventor went further. He began to carry out another important order - to adapt LTDS for Merkava-3 - a tank, the work on the construction of which was carried out in Israel. Today, after more than 20 years, military experts state that The Vedel development proved to be excellent, being used on the Merkava-3 and Merkava-4 tanks, though it doesn’t bear the “maiden name” of LTDS, but the “surname of the husband” Geadrive, but this does not affect the effectiveness of the application.
        In 1990, the Bundeswehr inherited the assets of the army of the former GDR, and in 1991 intended to deliver to the Israelis tanks from this property. The Federal Intelligence Agency (Bundesnachrichtendienst, BND) was supposed to ensure exports bypassing parliamentary control bodies. Incidentally, this supply, which was launched in order to exchange information, became known to the public.
        In October 1991, the delivery of weapons to Israel was announced at the port of Hamburg, which was reputed to be the main carrier of agricultural and forestry equipment. The fact of the dispatch was discovered by the coast guard, after which the cargo - tanks disguised as agricultural vehicles - was arrested. Everything would be in order if the water police had been warned, but for some reason they did not think about it. And in this case, the participation of the special services of the Federal Republic of Germany and Israel, which were obliged to be coordinators of supplies, was proved. In the course of further investigation, it turned out that before the indicated action there were 12 more similar and also related to the transfer of weapons. Of course, without coordination with the Federal Security Council. The ending of Hamburg history is interesting: in spite of everything, the tanks were delivered to Israel. The Germans remained true to the word.
        The fate of the 120-mm smoothbore gun on the Leopard-2 tank was notably remarkable. In a rather complicated serpentine way, she found the way from the shops of the manufacturer Rheinmetall to the army units of Israel. Its intermediate routes are known exclusively from classified documents. Another fact related to Merkava is also important: the armor protecting it is created using IDB-Deisenroth technology, other components are delivered from Renk AG in Augsburg, the engines are developed by MTU and assembled from separate parts of the American licensee, and they are sent to Israel from overseas
        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic 26 October 2013 00: 01
          +2
          In Friedensforum 4/2006, with reference to Die Welt, another project was announced, approved by the Federal Security Council (Bundessicherheitsrat) in June of that year. He provided transfer to Israel to test the Dingo-2 armored fighting vehicle (The Soviet counterpart is a BMP, but with a 5-centimeter armored bottom, a well-protected driver’s cabin, and a speed of 90-100 km / h over rough terrain). Testing was necessary in connection with the plans of Israel to acquire 103 such vehicles. They are especially suitable for use in armed conflicts with militants and to fight rebels, the newspaper notes. While Berlin was shying away from supplies, a Dingo-2 production license was obtained by the US company Textron, which also received an export permit. At the same time, the Israelis notified the manufacturers that they had their own effective weapons, which they intend to install in Dingo-2. Be that as it may, the Friedensforum sums up, quite obviously, "That in a few years, Dingo labeled" Made in Israel "will appear on the roads of the Middle East." The Federal Security Council allowed the delivery to Israel of this type of armored vehicles, although in quantities of not 103, but 150 units, from which we can conclude that the test was successful and German technology once again met expectations.
          One example of component exports to Israel is MTU engines for Merkava-4. In April 2002 alone, 400 MTU 883 V-12 diesel engines were delivered with a contract value of $ 265 million (about 650 thousand for 1 unit).
          Engines for Israeli tanks are supplied through the American company General Dynamics Land Systems, which is licensed to manufacture these engines. Under the name GD 883, the MTU diesel engine is installed in the American M1A2 Abrams tank in the export version (315 units for Saudi Arabia and 218 units for Kuwait). As Military Technology, 6/2000 points out, even in the previous model of the tank - the 3 Merkava-1989 - two German components were present: the RK 304 automatic transmission manufactured by Renk AG and the stabilization system indicated at the beginning of the article on the Geadrive tower of the Extel Systems Wedel tower .
          link
        2. OffenroR
          OffenroR 26 October 2013 15: 08
          +1
          And I have always always wondered how the Jews create such "cool" combat equipment .... it turns out that German technologies are passed off as their own ...
          I kept saying ... Jews (Ashkenazi) are nowhere without Germans ... All the same, you can't fool the gene memory with all sorts of matriarchy ... if you conduct research, it turns out that they are a subclass of Germans ... until 1900 the percentage of "Aryan" they had more than 50% blood. Almost every nation that was spawned by the Germanic (see Germanic branch of peoples) absorbed some kind of "parent" quality (for example, the Swedes (Sveiskie Germans are an old Russian name) ... their technique is not much behind from the German) ... and only one qualities remained primordial ... the ability to fight.
          1. OffenroR
            OffenroR 26 October 2013 15: 17
            -1
            And I once again wonder how Germany became the richest and most powerful country in Europe, when Israel through the USA siphoned off the loot from Germany for "compensation for the Holocaust" (here's the story of how the United States put Israel on its feet).
            1. vahatak
              vahatak 26 October 2013 16: 23
              +2
              In fact, the Germans have been losing their old positions in the economy in the last 40-50 years. If by 1913 Germany surpassed England and France together (that is, approximately twice as much as each separately), and in 1939 it occupied 13,3% of the world economy (without Austria and the Czech Republic, because with them it was 15% ), now Germany has about 5% of world GDP, and England or France exceeds the percentages by 20-25 separately, although as early as 1965 the economies of these two countries together were approximately equal to the economies of divided Germany.
              And I would not look for the reason in the fools, but in the notorious multiculturalism, since economic growth based on cheap and imported labor does not lead to good.
              1. OffenroR
                OffenroR 26 October 2013 20: 41
                0
                I meant the period after the Second World War ... Germany recovered from the ashes and ruins along the way by distributing "compensation" to the right and left ... Look ... the psheki seized most of East Prussia ... along the way resettling 11 million Germans ... but psheki for their meanness have already managed to pay properly ... the blood of 9000000 Poles during the war years is still the price.
                1. vahatak
                  vahatak 27 October 2013 19: 58
                  +1
                  Yes, I agree, this is a rare case in history, and after that it is difficult not to respect the Germans.
          2. alex shnajder
            alex shnajder 10 November 2013 01: 36
            0
            it is, Jews are divided into two branches, Yiddish, he is almost German by ear))))
      3. il grand casino
        il grand casino 26 October 2013 12: 24
        0
        Quote: OffenroR
        But the Jews are buying submarines from the Germans ... now the Jews are not smart enough to bring submarines to mind? wassat
        But Israel has promoted that the best drones are made by them. Also, Israel has the "best" medicine in this and two neighboring galaxies ... but just like big bumps where anything gets sick, they gallop to Germany, and not to you.

        I am German))) So it’s more likely to us)))
        1. OffenroR
          OffenroR 26 October 2013 15: 13
          0
          Already crawling on the "pride of the Soviet car industry" wassat drinks
  • catapractic
    catapractic 25 October 2013 23: 40
    0
    at least now Jews are much cooler as soldiers than refined pederasts from the EU
    1. Abracadabra
      Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 27
      +1
      Absolutely brainwashed .. :( Anti-Gay law for people like you probably came up with ..
    2. jjj
      jjj 26 October 2013 01: 34
      0
      Jews are now also refined. But only the Jews
  • ruslan207
    ruslan207 25 October 2013 16: 41
    +1
    DezzeD is that where dushman in Minsk stands nearby?
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 16
    0
    In Afghanistan, figures were used for them both from RPG7 and ATGMs, and they were blown up by landmines and mines. They proved to be excellent. Yes, so that the Taliban do not even try to knock out anymore .. But the grilles always do not hurt, anyway what kind of armor, because the grill is cheaper than the armored module.
  • Ivan_Ivanov
    Ivan_Ivanov 25 October 2013 09: 53
    +3
    Beautiful, good tank.
    But ours is better.
    1. ruslan207
      ruslan207 25 October 2013 16: 38
      +1
      Ours is who damask both have not come across and judge the best or worst to speak prematurely
  • ramin_serg
    ramin_serg 25 October 2013 10: 05
    0
    don't say it, but I think Leopard is the best tank in the world
    1. alone
      alone 25 October 2013 12: 35
      +8
      there are no good or bad tanks .. any tank is vulnerable. It all depends on the actions and training of the crew.

      leopard is the best western tank. so it will be more correct.)))
      1. poquello
        poquello 25 October 2013 22: 20
        +2
        Quote: lonely
        there are no good or bad tanks .. any tank is vulnerable. It all depends on the actions and training of the crew.

        leopard is the best western tank. so it will be more correct.)))

        and knowledge of the tank by the enemy and his actions
  • MilaPhone
    MilaPhone 25 October 2013 10: 28
    +6
    And this photo apparently shows the crew of a German "educational" film.
    The tank is designed to represent the phallic beginning!
    1. Patton5
      Patton5 25 October 2013 22: 46
      +3
      in this photo you can estimate the size of the tank ..... belay
  • APES
    APES 25 October 2013 10: 50
    -7
    test tank
    I love to bend on it laughing
  • sys-1985
    sys-1985 25 October 2013 10: 57
    +3
    For some reason, it doesn’t please the eye .. it may indeed be a gene memory.
  • Hikar
    Hikar 25 October 2013 11: 00
    +1
    In the pictures, the modernized Leo-1 and various modifications of Leo-2 ... that's what puzzled me at Leo-2 with dynamic protection of the tower’s forehead ... uh, how does the mechanical drive get out-climb ??? they turn the tower then climbs or what?
    1. Alexander D.
      Alexander D. 25 October 2013 22: 59
      0
      1 - there is no dynamic protection at all on Leo, the only combination is a layer cake.
      2 - before the exit, the driver turns the tower 90 degrees.
  • Sashkessss
    Sashkessss 25 October 2013 11: 47
    +2
    A question for experts in tank technology - how was the tower centered and what kind of armor is at the back of the tower that protrudes from below? It’s just interesting whether it’s realistic to destroy it with a magnetic mine and what will happen to the tower near the muzzle
    1. Alexander D.
      Alexander D. 25 October 2013 23: 00
      +2
      Here is the material for information http://btvt.narod.ru/raznoe/bulat-leo2.htm
    2. Abracadabra
      Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 30
      +1
      Leo2 has a device that simulates a tank several meters in front of the tank’s nose and causes magnetic mines to explode before the tank is under a mine.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 25 October 2013 11: 52
    +4
    In the photo, where the tank moves logs, there is a model on a scale of 1:16 on rubber psaltery.
    1. smirnov
      smirnov 25 October 2013 14: 18
      +1
      Also drew attention to the trucks, or rather, their absence)))
  • Horst78
    Horst78 25 October 2013 12: 13
    +2
    The car is beautiful, but the combat capabilities are not known. There is no combat use (Agan and Kosovo do not count), but a theory without practice zilch.
    1. vahatak
      vahatak 25 October 2013 14: 09
      0
      Quote: Horst78
      There is no combat use (Agan and Kosovo do not count), but a theory without practice zilch.

      By your logic, the best modern tanks are Merkava and Abrams.
      And the combat capabilities even without war can be found out on trials.
      1. Horst78
        Horst78 25 October 2013 18: 12
        0
        Merkava has experience in fighting the militia; Abrams showed himself not in the best direction. Tests are carried out according to the methodology, which is being developed to verify the declared characteristics. A real battle is a fundamentally different action that is aimed at destroying the enemy with ANY means.
        1. vahatak
          vahatak 25 October 2013 19: 50
          +5
          You just have impenetrable arguments.
          Merkava is not fighting with that, Abrams is not fighting like that, Leopard didn’t fight at all, the tests are not being conducted like that.
          You cannot create a weapon that leaves the factory with combat experience. This is just the comfort of those who do not want to recognize the obvious superiority of the Germans.
          Does the number of countries that buy Leopard mean something or are they all dumb?
          1. Abracadabra
            Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 32
            +2
            Exactly! If not for parliamentary control, then many who drool along Leo, n.p. Chinese, banned from selling it. And already for 3000 pieces have been sold and the interest of other countries is only growing.
          2. Horst78
            Horst78 26 October 2013 09: 48
            0
            When Hezbollah had the Chrysanthemum missile launcher, the Merkava was somehow quickly blown off the battlefield. In Iraq, the T-55 and Type-59 successfully fought against the Abrams. Even from large-caliber machine guns, Abrams turned into a tank destroyer with a non-rotating turret (due to an external additional power plant). On the resource, I already gave comments about sales, a lot depends on marketing and simple lobbying. Remember at least the sale of French Leclerc. So stupid, not stupid, I can't say. It is known from history that positive modernization is obtained only after combat use.
            1. vahatak
              vahatak 26 October 2013 14: 27
              +1
              Quote: Horst78
              In Iraq, the T-55 and Type-59 successfully fought against the Abrams.

              Maybe Saddam also won the war, but we don’t know? They would say T-72, I would have thought, but the T-55 ...
              It’s still necessary to get into Abrams’s power plant, and if you take into account that the tanks don’t drive alone, then the tanks’s task will be completed anyway, and then the damaged unit will be repaired and returned to service.
              Compare sales (as far as I know, the only importer is the Emirates) Leclerc with Leopard export is not entirely correct. Leopard was bought mainly by Europeans, some of them even abandoned their own tanks in his favor.
              No one denies that combat experience is indispensable, but of modern tanks, few have this experience, and the experience is very dubious. The same Abrams or Challenger in Iraq were no more at risk than other Leopards or Leclerci in the exercises.
  • Exististor
    Exististor 25 October 2013 12: 26
    +2
    Great combat vehicle. The Germans have a good tank school.
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 25 October 2013 12: 29
      +6
      And we have a good school for the destruction of German tanks. soldier
      1. Abracadabra
        Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 33
        -2
        What, tanks? :) Ratings do not recall? He personally spoke with a Tiger gunner .. He says T34 was shot down from a pole as a hen.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 26 October 2013 01: 41
          +4
          "Tiger" heavy tank, T-34 - medium. It would be amazing if they had an equal opportunity. Our Is-2 also had no particular problems with German tanks.
          1. Abracadabra
            Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 56
            -1
            Is-s were certainly excellent tanks .. But the war was over, they fought a little, you can not compare .. The Germans then already had an army of old men and 16-year-old boys.
            1. Kolovrat77
              Kolovrat77 26 October 2013 02: 23
              +2
              I am embarrassed to ask (rather weak in history, excuse me), but where did they go from 16 to the elderly.
              1. catapractic
                catapractic 26 October 2013 10: 04
                +1
                apparently went into compost for fertilizers of Russian vegetable gardens bully
        2. Dezzed
          Dezzed 26 October 2013 11: 41
          0
          if "they knocked down like chickens" the Germans would have taken Moscow. the gunner must have exaggerated a little.
          1. Abracadabra
            Abracadabra 26 October 2013 15: 31
            0
            He was a gunner on Panther and on the Tiger, and when did they appear, and how many of them were there? To Moscow then Pts1,2,3 and so on. Small tanks advanced. He did not exaggerate anything, why would he? I also saw documentation about the western front, Sherman crews and German crews gave interviews. So the crew of the Panther, or the Royal Tiger, 10-15 Shermans were beaten up, while they managed to set fire to them from the side. The Royal Tigers were generally impenetrable in the front.
            1. Kars
              Kars 26 October 2013 15: 36
              +1
              Quote: Abra Kadabra
              The Royal Tigers were generally impenetrable in the front.
              1. Day 11
                Day 11 26 October 2013 15: 44
                0
                Kars, why doesn't this car have a muzzle brake on the barrel? Just wondering. Cut part of the trunk?
                1. Kars
                  Kars 26 October 2013 15: 47
                  +2
                  Quote: Den 11
                  the barrel is missing a muzzle brake? Just wondering

                  Is there anything missing and the trunk floor is missing?
                  1. Day 11
                    Day 11 26 October 2013 15: 52
                    0
                    Yes, I already saw. Hurried with a question
              2. Abracadabra
                Abracadabra 26 October 2013 18: 17
                0
                I conveyed the memories of veterans, crews of Sherman. They described the battle with one Tiger2 and the difficulty of hitting it. A hole is visible in the photo, but is it through? And it’s not known what the hole is from. I saw photographs from museums, there are clearly visible attempts to hit Tiger2, or Yagdttigry in frontal projection. Once again, we are talking about ordinary Shermans and T 34s, maybe cannons of a larger calliber in the last months of the war and could have knocked out the Tigers.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 26 October 2013 18: 25
                  +1
                  Quote: Abra Kadabra
                  I conveyed the memories of veterans, crews of Sherman.

                  Shermans, by the way, were also different - some were difficult especially with 75 mm M1
                  Quote: Abra Kadabra
                  A hole is visible in the photo, but is it through? And it’s not known what the hole is from
                  the hole is exactly pass-through, it is visible in shape. From which 17 pound is quite possible.
                  Quote: Abra Kadabra
                  Once again, we are talking about ordinary Shermans and T 34,

                  but somewhere there is a feature that shoot only in the forehead?

                  Quote: Abra Kadabra
                  there are clearly visible attempts to hit the Tiger2

                  http://topwar.ru/15058-a-byl-li-tigr-korolevskim.html
            2. APES
              APES 28 October 2013 16: 10
              0
              Quote: Abra Kadabra
              or the Royal Tiger on 10-15 Shermans beat

              You compare tanks of different levels - the eighth versus the sixth, which is fundamentally wrong.
              The CT (royal tiger) has no one chance at all against our 44-ki.

              Although, purely subjective - I liked it on CT, it makes a significant contribution to the result of the fight, even sometimes you can pull out the fight - although you understand that, again, everything rests on the "hands" - yours and the hands of your opponents.
              "Nubas" at least give Mouse - it will merge ineptly and substitute the command.
    2. il grand casino
      il grand casino 25 October 2013 12: 33
      +4
      Where did Leo 2 fight? What did you decide that the car was excellent ... Here our T- (substitute the desired number) fought, the Abrams fought, the Merkavs fought, and so on. You can judge how good or bad. And here so far more and more speculation. Although I personally like the tank subjectively, but how good it will be possible to judge after combat use ...
      1. vahatak
        vahatak 25 October 2013 14: 09
        -1
        Where did the T-90 fight ???????????????????
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 25 October 2013 14: 20
          +2
          Quote: vahatak
          Where did the T-90 fight?

          T-90 is a deep modernization of the T-72. Do not quibble.
          1. vahatak
            vahatak 25 October 2013 16: 17
            +4
            If the T-72 and T-90 are one tank, why bother people? Really for PR? After all, it so happens that other countries make new tanks, but Russia does not.
            And why is the Merkava war in Palestine considered, but the Leopard in Afghanistan not?
            1. il grand casino
              il grand casino 25 October 2013 17: 41
              +2
              Well, in the first place, the Merkava were also noted in Lebanon ...
              1. vahatak
                vahatak 25 October 2013 19: 53
                +2
                What is the modification of the Merkava? This is 1982. Modern Merkavas have not changed much since then.
                1. Alexander D.
                  Alexander D. 25 October 2013 23: 03
                  +2
                  Quote: vahatak
                  What is the modification of the Merkava? This is 1982. Modern Merkavas have not changed much since then.

                  So for reference - Israel (for the umpteenth time) fought with Lebanon in the 2000s - by the way, the Lebanese did a good job of merkava there.
                  1. vahatak
                    vahatak 25 October 2013 23: 26
                    +1
                    Quote: Alexander D.
                    So for reference - Israel (once again) fought with Lebanon in the 2000s

                    If my memory doesn’t change me (and this was recently during my lifetime, in contrast to 1982), Israel fought not with Lebanon, but with Hezbollah, but in this case, the comrades of the opponents say that the Leopard’s experience in Afghanistan does not count, To this, I settled only on the war between the regular armies.
            2. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 25 October 2013 18: 29
              0
              Quote: vahatak
              If the T-72 and T-90 are one tank, why bother people?

              I mean to deceive? If on the basis of one product they do another and assign a different number, what is the deception? Nobody is hiding this. Leopard’s numbers also change. hi
              1. Kars
                Kars 25 October 2013 18: 47
                +4
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                Leopard’s numbers also change.

                Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 are different tanks. And the T-90 would not be Yeltsin’s whim would be the T-72
                1. Ingvar 72
                  Ingvar 72 25 October 2013 18: 54
                  -1
                  Quote: Kars
                  Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 are different tanks.

                  Do you speak different? There are about the same differences as our tanks. Priora also differs from dozens, but in essence it is a development of the previous model.
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 25 October 2013 19: 13
                    +4
                    Quote: Ingvar 72
                    Do you speak different?

                    Yes, I say. Absolutely different.
                    Quote: Ingvar 72
                    There are about the same differences as our tanks

                    Are the T-55 and T-72 the same tanks for you? The leopard 1 and 2 have almost nothing at all the same. Unless the rollers and rear-view mirrors.
                    1. Ingvar 72
                      Ingvar 72 25 October 2013 20: 01
                      0
                      Quote: Kars
                      Yes, I say. Absolutely different.

                      It is useless to argue with you. One thing for you, and you another. Volkswagen Golf 1 and Golf 5 are also completely different cars, but Golf 5 grew out of the old generation of golfs. This can also be called a deep modernization. Same thing with tanks. And the T90 grew precisely from the T72. If you want to argue for the sake of the process itself, I'm sorry, this is not for me. hi
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 25 October 2013 20: 11
                        +2
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        It is useless to argue with you. One thing for you, and you another. Volkswagen Golf 1 and Golf 5 are also completely different cars, but 5 golf grew out of the old generation of golfs

                        Let's not you load me with cars?
                        In fact, the Leopard 1 is one tank. The Leopard 2 is another tank, the prototype of which was not the Leopard 1 but a joint project of the MVT-70. If you do not understand the tanks, what are you performing?
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        . And T90 grew out of T72.

                        T-72 and T-90 is a tank on one chassis, the real name of which is T-72БУ.
                        The difference is very small. For example, T-80BV and T-80 have more rights to give T-80 the index T-84 / 86.
                      2. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 26 October 2013 09: 23
                        -4
                        Quote: Kars
                        Let's not you load me with cars?

                        You are not an auto transporter to ship you with them. Judging by your nickname, I thought that cars were closer to you. laughing You are right with Leopard, the platform and the truth is different, but in general, in the world tank building, it is not so rare to give new numbers to modernized tanks. The question was precisely that.
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 26 October 2013 10: 47
                        +1
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        With Leopard, you're right

                        Wow.
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        The question was precisely that.

                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Leopard's numbers are changing too
                      4. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 27 October 2013 13: 14
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Wow.
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        The question was precisely that.
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Leopard's numbers are changing too

                        For the gifted, I’ll remind you that the issue was to assign individual numbers to modifications, and you cling to what is convenient for you. Can't you go to bed without biting anyone? Do you have self-conceit complexes? I, unlike you, know how to admit mistakes.
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 27 October 2013 13: 25
                        +1
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        For the gifted I remind you

                        No, you do not pull on this.
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        in assigning individual numbers to modifications,

                        Oh well? Then where does the T-90?
                        Leopapd has such numbering as Leo2A4, Leo2A5, etc. So sorry, as I said T-90 is T-72БУ
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        I, unlike you, know how to admit mistakes

                        So prove my mistake.
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        If on the basis of one product they do another and assign a different number, what is the deception? Nobody is hiding this. Leopard's numbers are changing too

                        as we see in this phrase, you committed a forgery. Could at least mention the Chinese.
                      6. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 27 October 2013 14: 31
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        No, you do not pull on this.

                        Do you have poor eyesight or paranoia? I did not try on a talented shirt on myself.
                        Quote: Kars
                        As you can see in this phrase, you committed a forgery.

                        The term forgery implies intent, and this is a mistake, which I admitted by the way.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Could at least mention the Chinese.
                        What are you talking about? And besides the Chinese, no one is doing this? And I thought you are well versed in this topic. lol
                        Quote: Kars
                        So prove my mistake.

                        Grammar to list?
                        Quote: Kars
                        Leopapd has such numbering as Leo2A4, Leo2A5, etc. So sorry

                        On other branches they were mistaken, and more than once. I will not list, you want, you yourself will understand, do not want, your problems. The game about urine to play with you I have no desire. hi
                      7. Kars
                        Kars 27 October 2013 14: 35
                        +1
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        I did not try on a talented shirt on myself.

                        Also it is not necessary.
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        The term forgery implies intent, and this is a mistake, which I admitted by the way
                        Under the weight of facts, and before there were some tricks.
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        What are you talking about? And besides the Chinese, no one is doing this? And I thought you are well versed in this topic.

                        But don’t you think, but prove something. And with THIS? Can you give specific examples?
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Grammar to list?

                        Grammar can not bother.
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        On other branches they were mistaken, and more than once. I will not list

                        maybe you can’t?
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        The game about urine to play with you I have no desire.

                        strange you express it.
          2. Patton5
            Patton5 25 October 2013 22: 51
            0
            Wacky way of comparing warm to soft.
          3. Abracadabra
            Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 38
            +1
            No, Golf5 can’t be called a deep modernization of Golf1! :)) The platforms are completely different, absolutely everything is different .. Golf1 is even slightly smaller than the new Polo! :)) Leo2 is a completely different tank than Leo1, there is nothing in common.
  • vahatak
    vahatak 25 October 2013 19: 56
    0
    Quote: Ingvar 72
    If on the basis of one product they do another and assign a different number

    So maybe you finally decide: is it the same tank or different? In the context of the combat experience of the T-90, and what was originally discussed.
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 25 October 2013 20: 13
      +1
      I didn’t seem to get confused in the testimony. laughing
      Quote: Ingvar 72
      If on the basis of one product they do another and assign a different number, what is the deception?
      The keywords were- BASED. fool
      1. vahatak
        vahatak 25 October 2013 20: 47
        0
        We started the conversation with the fact that you answered the question "Where did the T-90 fight?" they said that I was finding fault, since this is the same T-72, and now it turns out that they are different cars. I actually don't care how the numbers are assigned. I am interested in something else: is it possible to record the experience of the T-72 on the T-90? Personally, I doubt it.
        1. Abracadabra
          Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 41
          0
          Why not? T-90 bathtub, undercarriage .., everything is the same as that of the T-72 .. Security, mine protection is almost at the same level. So the T-90 .., it's better not to drive to war .., just look at the "successes" of the T-72.
          1. Dezzed
            Dezzed 26 October 2013 11: 46
            0
            but in this way we can say that the success of the AK-47 is the success of the saiga
  • smersh70
    smersh70 25 October 2013 23: 26
    -3
    Quote: vahatak
    Where did the T-90 fight?

    not drift)) see you soon .. wassat ..
  • catapractic
    catapractic 26 October 2013 10: 05
    0
    and where did the Germans fight after 45?
  • revnagan
    revnagan 25 October 2013 12: 28
    0
    Where, how and with what can you beat a fascist, for sure?
    PS Dear moderators, for God's sake, remove the geyropsky flag (what a shame!), Return the flag of the USSR.
    1. il grand casino
      il grand casino 25 October 2013 12: 34
      +2
      The Nazis need to be beaten! And where it is not so important ... it is possible in the face it is possible to beat the balls ... As you like))) And most importantly, beat the Nazis as often as possible)))
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Abracadabra
        Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 43
        +2
        There are orders of magnitude more fascists in Russia than in Germany, where you can count them on your fingers .. That's where there is expanse, for beating the muzzle, how many zigzagging and swastika-loving idiots, you wonder.
  • revnagan
    revnagan 25 October 2013 12: 32
    0
    Where, how and with what can you beat a fascist, for sure?
    PS Dear moderators, please clear the Geyropeisky flag (what a shame), return the flag of the USSR.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • kafa
    kafa 25 October 2013 13: 36
    +3
    noble beast but we also have something to meet any menagerie soldier
  • kadet54
    kadet54 25 October 2013 14: 04
    0
    Quote: bistrov.
    Quote: GUR
    Why are they all different, is this not one tank?

    One tank, Leopard-2, different models. From Leopard-2A1 to Leopard-2A6, which is currently in service with Germany. Earlier models are actively sold abroad.

    In the photo, it seems like the first one is, only very modernized.
    1. Tan4ik
      Tan4ik 25 October 2013 14: 38
      0
      I think so too.
  • roial
    roial 25 October 2013 14: 38
    +6
    -----------------
    1. vahatak
      vahatak 25 October 2013 16: 26
      -4
      This is not Leo. And the soldier (at least the uniform) does not look like a German.
      1. Patton5
        Patton5 25 October 2013 22: 55
        +1
        It's sarcasm? or really everything is so bad!
        1. vahatak
          vahatak 25 October 2013 23: 43
          0
          And what? Am I really so wrong?
          1. smile
            smile 26 October 2013 02: 52
            0
            vahatak
            And you take a closer look at the typewriter, and the guy. can you understand why people thought you were joking ... or are you joking? Since if you do not understand who and what is in the photo, then your arguments about the fighting qualities of various armored vehicles lose much of their credibility ... :)))
            1. vahatak
              vahatak 26 October 2013 14: 35
              0
              I thought it was t-72 or 90, and the boy seems to be in Russian uniform and looks like a Slav, but you can confuse this picture.
              1. Kars
                Kars 26 October 2013 14: 38
                +1
                Quote: vahatak
                I thought it was t-72 or 90

                This is T-80
                1. vahatak
                  vahatak 26 October 2013 15: 18
                  0
                  Thanks for the information.
      2. catapractic
        catapractic 26 October 2013 10: 08
        0
        apparently trophy leo laughing
  • DZ_98_B
    DZ_98_B 25 October 2013 14: 46
    0
    I liked the place of the driver !!!
  • understudy
    understudy 25 October 2013 14: 54
    +2
    "Gerbil" on tanks is notable. And the Teuton himself is handsome. Maybe they will come to the "biathlon", then we will compare? winked
    1. vahatak
      vahatak 25 October 2013 16: 27
      -2
      Quote: Understudy
      Maybe they will come to the "biathlon", then we will compare?

      Aren't you afraid?
      1. understudy
        understudy 25 October 2013 21: 12
        +1
        Why be afraid? If at one time "Moskvich" kicked the ass of the vaunted foreign auto-legislators, why can't our tank do the same? Let's lose? Well, then, I hope, they will kick hard on our "responsible" persons.
        1. vahatak
          vahatak 25 October 2013 23: 46
          +1
          I would like, of course, but the Germans have a higher speed and the gun is good, if not the best in the world, and reliability and simplicity will not immediately appear in the biathlon.
        2. Abracadabra
          Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 45
          0
          Judging by the results of that biathlon .. It’s better not to .. Let the dreams remain .. Shoigu, by the way, made his conclusion publicly.
          1. Dezzed
            Dezzed 26 October 2013 11: 52
            0
            how do these things (photos) help dates the battle tank and team score?
  • ko88
    ko88 25 October 2013 15: 09
    +2
    the Ukrainian stronghold bypassed the leopard in the tender, tobish it was recognized better than the leopard in many respects, although the "German" is perhaps one of the best in the world.
    1. OffenroR
      OffenroR 25 October 2013 16: 41
      -13 qualifying.
      Since when did the "saloezhki" start making tanks better than the Germans? "Oplot" does not even reach the level of the T-90MS ...
      1. Kars
        Kars 25 October 2013 16: 44
        +8
        Quote: OffenroR
        Since when did "saloezhki"

        Since when has the Azerbaijani fruit sellers become in rabirats tanks?
        Quote: OffenroR
        "Oplot" does not even reach the level of T-90MS ...

        But is he T-90MS? except for the demo layout?
        1. OffenroR
          OffenroR 25 October 2013 22: 18
          -4
          And since when have Ukrainian experts on armored vehicles like you become so good at figuring out fruit? I suppose your Oplot instead of fuel juice from a watermelon, and the buzz shoots it with seeds wassat

          And I repeat the question ..
          Quote: OffenroR
          Since when "saloezhki" Ukrainians began to make tanks better than Germans
          1. Kars
            Kars 25 October 2013 22: 24
            +3
            Quote: OffenroR
            And since when did Ukrainian experts in armored vehicles like you become so well versed in fruit?

            I in no way claimed to know fruit. But you can tell where I wrote this.

            Quote: OffenroR
            "Oplot" instead of fuel, the juice from the watermelon "thumps", and the cannon shoots it with seeds

            Not these are Azerbaijani modifications, there are still grenades good, yes dear?
            Quote: OffenroR
            then since when did the "saloezhki" Ukrainians begin to make tanks better than the Germans

            Since the 1939 of the year when the T-34 was made at the Kharkov Tractor))))
            And then the first MBT T-64. Kharkov tank school is the best in the USSR.
          2. Patton5
            Patton5 25 October 2013 23: 06
            +1
            You'd better study the subject of discussion before embarrassing yourself with your "vomit" fool
            1. OffenroR
              OffenroR 26 October 2013 16: 17
              0
              Quote: Patton5
              fool

              wassat
        2. smersh70
          smersh70 25 October 2013 23: 30
          +1
          Quote: Kars
          Since when is the Azerbaijani fruit seller

          I have big doubts about him .... wassat
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 25 October 2013 23: 35
            +1
            Great, zema!
          2. OffenroR
            OffenroR 26 October 2013 16: 24
            +1
            I remembered you ..... we 5 years ago at the Cherkizovsky market almost fought for a place tongue
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 26 October 2013 16: 35
              +1
              Do you speak Cherkizovsky? Let me remember ... And, exactly, are you the one who traded rotten tomatoes? hi
      2. alone
        alone 25 October 2013 23: 53
        +4
        Quote: OffenroR
        Since when did the "saloezhki" start making tanks better than the Germans? "Oplot" does not even reach the level of the T-90MS ...


        Have you seen the stronghold tested it? maybe they fired from this tank? how do you know that a leopard or a stronghold is better? and they are probably not familiar with a leopard. what are these comments for?
        1. OffenroR
          OffenroR 26 October 2013 15: 37
          +1
          Well then ... should I contribute to the discussion of local self-taught professors ...
          Quote: lonely
          how do you know which is better leopard or stronghold

          And what kind of bald local "candidate of military sciences" put ratings? What tables and test results can be used to determine that Oplot is better than Leo2A7? Have you seen enough "battles of psychics"?
          I know that CARS is well enlightened in this matter (so the above titles do not apply to him wink)
          1. Kars
            Kars 26 October 2013 15: 46
            +1
            Quote: OffenroR
            What tables and test results can determine that Oplot is better than Leo2A7?

            Strange it tells the spec))
            Quote: OffenroR
            "Oplot" does not even reach the level of the T-90MS ..

            Are you coming out of the battle of psychics?)))

            leopard 2A7 by the way is also a non-serial model, and a technology demonstrator.
            Quote: OffenroR
            I know that CARS is well educated in this matter.

            So take a word that BM Oplot is preferable to Leopard2A6?
            Well, for example, armored protection? Which protects from tandem ammunition from all angles except the stern?
            1. OffenroR
              OffenroR 26 October 2013 20: 55
              +1
              Quote: Kars
              So take a word that BM Oplot is preferable to Leopard2A6?
              Well, for example, armored protection? Which protects from tandem ammunition from all angles except the stern?
              And you tell me ... is the T-84 capable of effectively hitting the Leo2A6M? Or vice versa ... I don’t know how armored vehicles are tested, but I think that from the test results you can determine which tank is preferable. Naturally, not everything comes down to which the tank will have time to quickly destroy the tank of another model and at the same time remain combat ready.


              Quote: Kars
              Are you coming out of the battle of psychics?)))

              I'm with "beating psychics".
              1. Kars
                Kars 27 October 2013 23: 11
                +2
                Quote: OffenroR
                And you say ... is the T-84 capable of effectively defeating Leo2A6M? Or vice versa ..

                BM Oplot is able to hit the Leopard2A6, on the contrary, the Leopard will be much harder.
                Quote: OffenroR
                I'm with "beating psychics".

                Already discharged?
                1. OffenroR
                  OffenroR 27 October 2013 23: 36
                  0
                  Quote: Kars
                  Already discharged?

                  Ala, do I have time, so that somewhere else they will be recorded? wink Armenians? No, sir. "Gold mine" I will defend to the last drop of blood wassat
    2. Patton5
      Patton5 25 October 2013 23: 01
      +3
      Well, who said that he is the best in the world (Germans) ???? As small children, this one is better, this one is worse, this one is shorter, this one is not much but longer ... Kindergarten, by golly
  • mithridate
    mithridate 25 October 2013 16: 33
    +1
    great selection of photos
  • Ahmed Osmanov
    Ahmed Osmanov 25 October 2013 18: 19
    +2
    Of all the existing tanks, the German Leopard 2A6 / 7 I like the most.
    1. Abracadabra
      Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 47
      0
      Leo MBT Revolution is generally cool, the most heaped up product from Reinmetall.
  • soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 25 October 2013 18: 58
    +1
    in one photo on the tower a Fritsevsky machine gun MG of the times of World War II; where the LEO photo in Afghanistan is covered with protection from sunlight, since at temperatures above 2 centigrade inside the tank it leads to a failure of the electronics and the tank becomes a fixed non-firing mass
    1. vahatak
      vahatak 25 October 2013 20: 02
      0
      Quote: Soldier's grandson
      at temperatures above 26 centigrade inside the tank

      Can I have more details and links? The topic is very interesting. Is it true that in Germany itself the temperature does not rise above 26?
      1. soldier's grandson
        soldier's grandson 25 October 2013 20: 13
        +1
        I can’t find the links, I watched the issue about these leo, the air conditioner and climate control in them ensure the electronic filling work, when the climate control fails, the electronics refuses, the tank does not start and does not shoot, so in Afghanistan tankers save them by covering them with carpets and preventing them from overheating inside the tank , optimal electronics performance 25-26 centigrade,
        1. vahatak
          vahatak 25 October 2013 20: 53
          0
          Quote: Soldier's grandson
          when the climate control fails, the electronics fails, the tank does not start and does not shoot

          You are scaring me. Are the Germans so stupid? The Germans have nothing yet. So on these tanks half of Europe drives including Spain, Greece, Turkey. The temperature there is also not like in the middle zone of Russia.
          Quote: Soldier's grandson
          optimal electronics performance 25-26 centigrade,

          Optimal and ultimate in my opinion are two different things. And the range should be more than one degree.
          In addition, climate control by itself does not fail because at a temperature of 30, or ...? .
          1. soldier's grandson
            soldier's grandson 25 October 2013 21: 45
            +2
            then the military experts lie, this also applies to the French Leclerc
            1. Kars
              Kars 25 October 2013 21: 49
              +4
              Quote: Soldier's grandson
              then the military experts lie, this also applies to the French Leclerc

              on Indian T-90С thermal imagers burn at temperatures above 50 degrees. and they are French.
              1. Abracadabra
                Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 50
                -1
                It was the Russians who burned, not the French.
        2. Abracadabra
          Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 49
          0
          This is nonsense .. Even if Leo dies all the electronics (which I strongly doubt, judging by the operation in Afghanistan), he can fight in Ain HQ mode.
    2. smile
      smile 26 October 2013 03: 05
      0
      soldier's grandson
      No, it's MG-3, if I'm not mistaken. It is created on the basis of SG 42. It turns out that this machine gun is used longer than our Kalash.
      1. Kolovrat77
        Kolovrat77 26 October 2013 03: 14
        0
        Quote: smile
        SG 42.

        I heard from the edge of my ear about mg 42, mg 34 and even about cr 43, but cr42 I do not know. Enlighten. With all due respect.
  • Andranik
    Andranik 25 October 2013 19: 35
    0
    Good life shots. Tuned tigers liked. Get rich, buy myself)))))) ....
  • Prapor-527
    Prapor-527 25 October 2013 23: 19
    0
    Well, why the hell is such a hypertrophied tower? My daughter has a model of this tank, I turn the tower to the side and laugh laughing
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 25 October 2013 23: 31
      +2
      Forgotten Germans to consult with you
      1. smersh70
        smersh70 25 October 2013 23: 34
        +3
        Quote: Den 11
        Forgotten Germans to consult with you

        Hello land! Right now Dan will arrange for you where the crayfish hibernate good laughing
    2. Abracadabra
      Abracadabra 26 October 2013 01: 51
      +1
      So that the BC couldn’t carry it under the ass, as the experience of Abramsov and T-72 showed, this prolongs the life of the crew ..
      1. Kars
        Kars 26 October 2013 10: 50
        +2
        Quote: Abra Kadabra
        What would BC under the ass not to carry

        And where?
        1. Abracadabra
          Abracadabra 26 October 2013 15: 48
          0
          Well, compare with the location of the BC in the T-90, where they are hung throughout the BO, along with fuel.
        2. Abracadabra
          Abracadabra 26 October 2013 18: 19
          -1
          This is how it looks on the T-90, see the difference?
          1. Kars
            Kars 26 October 2013 18: 29
            +2
            Quote: Abra Kadabra
            This is how it looks on the T-90, see the difference?

            difference?

            what can I say in fact, if you load only the ammunition of the automatic loading system of the ammunition of Soviet-designed tanks will be safer than the leopard. And even regularly, it’s still more because the best armor protection.
            1. Abracadabra
              Abracadabra 27 October 2013 21: 56
              0
              So the point is to protect the crew, not the BC. Kuma, piercing armor in Leo, in the BO does not stumble on propellant charges as in the T-72, and this, in fact, and not the BK, leads to the combustion of the crew. The Leo2 / Abrams layout tanks protect the crew from destruction better than the T-72/90, this is proven for the last 20 years, if you take the shelling from RPGs and ATGMs.

              Here is the shelling from RPG29 Abrams.

              1. Kars
                Kars 27 October 2013 22: 05
                +2
                Quote: Abra Kadabra
                So the point is to protect the crew, not the BC

                Is this a mutually exclusive position?
                Quote: Abra Kadabra
                . Kuma, piercing armor in Leo, in the BO does not stumble on propellant charges as in the T-72,

                Well, it’s not like that, but it mows the crew with fragments. Yes, and it’s very difficult to stumble on the propellant charge in the T-72. The conveyor is in the most invulnerable place.
                Quote: Abra Kadabra
                The tanks of the Leo2 / Abrams layout protect the crew from destruction better than the T-72 / 90, this is proven over the past 20 years, if you take shelling from RPGs and ATGMs.

                No, it has not been proved. Especially Leo 2 is proved NOW.

                Quote: Abra Kadabra
                Here is the shelling from RPG29 Abrams.

                But not a leopard? Abrashi has a better protection for an inferior BC compartment 3-4 times better than a leopard 2. And the shooter made a mistake, it was necessary to shoot in the center of the case. Probably Bay posters in the weak spots that they like to post on this site.
                Quote: Abra Kadabra
                and this, in fact, and not BC, leads to the combustion of the crew

                BC are both shells and charges.
                1. Abracadabra
                  Abracadabra 27 October 2013 22: 40
                  0
                  Yes, we can say mutually exclusive! But where the BC is under the ass of the crew, of course not. It was for this that the BC with the BO was taken out, precisely so that in the event of a hit, the crew could continue the battle, drive the car away and, if this is not possible, leave the car. And in the T-72, when the armor breaks through and the propellant charge ignites, there is no chance. I even brought the layout of the ammunition and propellant charges! Where is it hard ?! And why did they burn hundreds of T-72s then? What did the towers of hundreds of T-72s tear off? And where is at least one similar photo from Abrams? The only Abrams, like 2 in history, whose turret was blown off, are those blown up by huge land mines, such as 3 152mm shells coiled together and a bunch of TNT. Leo2 is successfully used by Danes and Canadians in Afghanistan! It turns out that the Taliban and Al Qaeda have forgotten how to fight in Afghanistan? But there, unlike Syria and the Taliban, there are much more opportunities and professionalism. They were also subjected to powerful land mines and shelling from RPGs and ATGMs. The commander of the Canadian armored forces said so - no other tank has such protection. He also said that the Taliban, after unsuccessful attempts to destroy Leo and responses from the same Leo, no longer even try to burn them with RPGs and ATGMs. After a successful application in Afghanistan, Canada bought another batch of Leo2 and upgraded the rest to the level of Leo2A5M, moreover, orders generally increased from other countries. Especially the mine protection of Leo2 is at the highest level, like all Klauss-Maffai products. It is not necessary to keep the customers of Klauss Muffai products for idiots and it is enough to see how many countries, despite the presence of their developments, have chosen Leo2. Even if Leo2 does not have such a rich experience as Abrams, this does not mean that one can say, "and we do not know how it will be in combat conditions." They are tested by their mother do not grieve, they are fired at, burned, subjected to all kinds of violence, that is, they are doing more and more that would have happened to them in real combat conditions and the successful use in Afghanistan is proof of this.
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 27 October 2013 22: 50
                    +1
                    Quote: Abra Kadabra
                    . That’s why BC and BO were taken out,

                    Well, what kind of shells in Leopad in the corps?
                    Quote: Abra Kadabra
                    And in the T-72, with penetration of the armor and the ignition of a propellant charge there is no chance.

                    Well, on penetration and fire just the chances are much less.
                    Quote: Abra Kadabra
                    em. I even brought the layout of BC and propellant charges! Where is it hard?
                    Everywhere. That's a scheme without armor.

                    Quote: Abra Kadabra
                    T. Leo2 is used by Danes and Canadians successfully in Afghanistan! Already it turns out the Taliban and Al Qaeda forgot how to fight in Afghanistan?

                    How many times have RPG hit them?
                    Quote: Abra Kadabra
                    ? But there, unlike Syria and the Taliban, there are much more opportunities and professionalism.

                    The war has been going on in Syria for two years now, and it is much easier for the Taliban and al-Qaeda to fight in Syria. And the tanks have been fighting since then, and if you were to listen to them they should have been sunburned in the first couple of months.
                    In Afghanistan, the Yankees with a bunch of drones sit on bases once a week along the road, and in Syria there are constant city battles and generally battles.
                    Quote: Abra Kadabra
                    the successful use in Afghanistan of this would be radiated with them in real combat conditions
                    This is about how to take the loss of the T-5 in Chechnya over the last 72 years, that's the whole Leopard combat experience.
                    1. Abracadabra
                      Abracadabra 27 October 2013 23: 18
                      0
                      Those in the hull, to the left of the driver, are still isolated from the crew by armor, and not with the crew! Just there is serious armor, in order to get them, you need to be able to break through 2 walls, in both directions, it's like punching a tank through! And those in the rear of the turret are isolated from the crew by knockout panels, so if there is an explosion when hit, it will go outside. In addition, blowing up the BC is completely rare, rather, when hit, as in that video with RPG29 and Abrams, it will simply turn the back of the tower and that's it. I can throw off the famous video of shelling in the rear of the T-72 turret from the RPG29, it is there that you can see perfectly well that the propellant charge caught fire in a moment. This is all some kind of meaningless and endless argument. I know that if you give Russian engineers the same European mechanical engineering, the infrastructure of a high-tech industry, responsible people in the Ministry of Defense, a working prosecutor's office that would cut down on any nepotism, then in Russia cars, tanks and everything else would be made at the highest level. And now the level is not worthy of such a country as Russia. Take the same Ob640 and its further development "Burlak" .. The chassis from the T-80, indisputably better and softer, would have bought the transmission in Ukraine, the Sosna-U .., AZ and BK sights were taken to the rear of the tower. It would be a better tank than today's T-90/72, this Burlak could replace the towers on the T-90/72/80 heap. But UVZ has a strong lobby in the Ministry of Defense, money is being mastered, but nothing new, which has already happened in the USSR, is not being done.
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 27 October 2013 23: 34
                        +2
                        Quote: Abra Kadabra
                        Those in the case, to the left of the driver, they are still isolated from the crew with armor,

                        Are you sure of this? Can you prove it? Photos?
                        Quote: Abra Kadabra
                        Just there is a serious armor, in order to get them, you must be able to break through the 2 wall

                        Where does the serious armor come from?
                        Quote: Abra Kadabra
                        And those in the stern of the tower are isolated from the crew by kick panels, so if there is a blast when hit,

                        But what a large and easily hit target, high above the ground, it’s straight and asks for the sight.
                        Quote: Abra Kadabra
                        rather on hit, as in that video with RPG29 and Abrams

                        I already wrote that the protection of the stern of the tower of Abrams is several times better than that of the Leopard 2
                        And the video of the burning BC Abrams is also on YouTube.
                        Quote: Abra Kadabra
                        I can throw off the famous video of shelling in the rear of the T-72 tower with RPG29

                        It’s better to skip the video as the Leopard 2 can withstand such a hit. And not in the ass of the tower. The video is more detailed, you’ll find it interesting.
                        Quote: Abra Kadabra
                        This is all some kind of senseless and endless argument

                        Well, why can you prove the standard of training in shooting BPS at 4.5 km, rate of fire in 20 shots, and how excellent the Leopard showed himself in battle in Afghanistan.
                        Quote: Abra Kadabra
                        AZ and BC brought to the stern of the tower.

                        it is enough to put new dz and screens and improve the fire extinguishing system.
                      2. Abracadabra
                        Abracadabra 27 October 2013 23: 43
                        +1
                        This is a picture from Leo2A4, in fact, since then the armor has been radically enhanced. Here's the Canadian version, reinforced armor on the sides of the hull is also visible.
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 28 October 2013 00: 08
                        +1
                        Quote: Abra Kadabra
                        Here is the Canadian version,

                        Give a photo of Linear Leo in the Bundeswehr.))
                      4. saturn.mmm
                        saturn.mmm 28 October 2013 00: 57
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Give a photo

                        New development of Leopard felts L 2A8 felts L 3
                      5. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 28 October 2013 01: 04
                        +1
                        German tank Leopard 2A4 Revolution. “Revolution” - this is how the name of the German MBT Revolution (Main battle tank revolution) program, designed to improve the performance of the Leopard 2 tank, is immodestly translated into Russian. For the first time, the Germans spoke about the development of measures to improve existing equipment at the Eurosatory- 2010, and soon showed the Leopard 2A4 demonstration tank, converted in accordance with the program. Http://army-news.ru/2012/04/nemeckij-tank-leopard-2a4-revolution/
                2. Abracadabra
                  Abracadabra 27 October 2013 23: 46
                  0
                  Here is Leo2A4, that is, suitable for your picture, see the difference?
                3. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 27 October 2013 23: 54
                  0
                  ............................................
                4. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 28 October 2013 00: 00
                  0
                  Leopard 2 vs. 9ff GTronic - Extremer Test
              2. Kars
                Kars 28 October 2013 00: 06
                +2
                Quote: Abra Kadabra
                since then the armor has been radically enhanced

                they made fun of it. They attached the screen and dramatically strengthened it.))) Hardly even the level of the on-board screen with the contact 1 reached.


                here is a board with anti-tandem DZ
            2. Abracadabra
              Abracadabra 28 October 2013 00: 02
              +1
              And here is a more secure version, the modernization of Leo2A4
  • Kars
    Kars 27 October 2013 22: 08
    +1
    ___________
    1. Abracadabra
      Abracadabra 27 October 2013 22: 52
      +2
      And what is this Saddam agitation about, which could and could come in handy for destroying A1M1 come in handy for trying to destroy A1M2 SEP v.2? I myself took a grenade launcher course, learned to destroy tanks. So they told me right away that the chances, if you don’t get the first time, are not high to survive, since even a tank of the T55 level will pinpoint where you shot. On this shot and run to the side, to one of the other two, hidden along the radius of grenade launchers .. And even if a modern tank is equipped with 360g cameras + 360g periscope, it’s so easy not to burn, you don’t even have time to aim. Maybe you have not heard, but in the West they learn from mistakes and the pace of modernization is high. At the moment, 1200 SEP v.2 in service with the United States, the Bundeswehr is equipped with the A7 + and, unlike the zombie’s broadcasts, not only on TV. But in Russia, in the event of a war, conscripted crews on tanks from T-62/55 to T-90, of various configurations, without and with DZ will again be sent. What was sent to Georgia again? And how many laudatory gears were about the T-90 super tanks? About the fast pace of rearmament with them, etc.? And where were they?
      1. Kars
        Kars 27 October 2013 22: 54
        +1
        Quote: Abra Kadabra
        And what is this Saddam agitation about


        Quote: Kars
        And the shooter made a mistake, it was necessary to shoot in the center of the case. Probably Bay placards in the weak spots that they like to post on this site.
      2. Kars
        Kars 27 October 2013 22: 56
        +1
        Quote: Abra Kadabra
        At the moment, the 1200 SEP v.2 is in service with the United States, the Bundeswehr is equipped with the A7 +

        You have already been asked once - When did the Bundeswehr begin to equip 7 + and how many have already been modified after the 2010 exhibition of the year)))
        Quote: Abra Kadabra
        Is A1M1 useful for attempting to destroy A1M2 SEP v.2?

        Equally. If it were not with errors.
        1. Abracadabra
          Abracadabra 27 October 2013 23: 37
          0
          They will equip as needed. If competitors have nothing serious yet, then where to rush? Even Leo3 with a 140mm cannon and AZ is already in principle in the regiment and waiting in the wings .. But when they saw that a potential tank manufacturer, for potential opponents, nothing has changed seriously for the last 20-30 years, so they decided not to procrastinate. And active battalions, n. in Afghanistan, they put on their Leo2A5M "hips" from the A7 + on the hull and on the turret in order to protect the crew from the RPG7, the mine protection is also being finalized, after the death of the mechanic from the Danes on the land mine in the A5.
          1. Kars
            Kars 28 October 2013 11: 44
            +1
            Quote: Abra Kadabra
            They will be equipped as necessary. If competitors have nothing serious yet, then where to rush?

            Then write differently, but it turned out that you cheated.
            Quote: Abra Kadabra
            The Bundeswehr equips the A7 + and, unlike the zombie’s broadcasts, not only on TV

            It turns out not even on TV (otherwise I would have heard about it) but only in your imagination. With the same success, I can write that the Ukrainian Armed Forces are equipped with Bastions.
  • Prapor-527
    Prapor-527 26 October 2013 00: 08
    0
    Yes ... It seems that he went to the wrong fan club. But this is my personal opinion, and its downsides can not be changed. hi
  • ler666
    ler666 27 October 2013 21: 59
    0
    Why is the German server here? Have not you thought?
  • Sirozha
    Sirozha 28 October 2013 11: 11
    0
    The photo inspired: Amerikos, what do you want? Well, we have no oil here! And with democracy in the carriage, everything is fine!
  • Pablo. 1970
    Pablo. 1970 29 October 2013 10: 10
    0
    Great battle tank.
    The Germans are great.