Military Review

Rus Lithuanian. From greatness to sunset

89
Rus Lithuanian. From greatness to sunset

I would like to appeal to those readers who, perhaps, believe that the topic of Lithuanian Rus is irrelevant for Russians. Meanwhile, it is known that ignoring individual historical periods of the formation of the Russian state, especially those associated with neighboring countries, often leads to far-fetched problems in relations with them. This is what is observed today in relations between Lithuania and Russia.


HEDMIN, OLGERD AND ORTHODOXY

After the strife that reigned after the death of Prince Mindovg, it was time for the Grand Duke of Lithuania Gedimin (he reigned from 1316 to 1341). About him already mentioned. Add that ON under Gedimine significantly strengthened economically and politically, has grown new territories.

And Gediminas did not always act by military means. The marriage of his son Olgerd to the prince's daughter of Vitebsk allowed Gediminas to include this principality in ON. He also managed to make his ally the principality of Kiev. At the same time, Gedymin concluded an agreement with Smolensk Prince Ivan Alexandrovich, thanks to which Smolensk was able to refuse to pay the tribute to the Horde. In this regard, I will inform one curious detail that characterizes those times.

The consequences of concluding an agreement with ON for Smolensk turned out to be quite unpleasant. The Horde Tumen, supported by the army of the Moscow principality headed by Prince Ivan Kalita, marched on Smolyan by march. Smolensk with great difficulty survived.

Yes, it was not an easy time. Treason and opportunism then settled in the Russian land. Brother went to his brother to please the Horde. In this situation, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania became a refuge for the western Russian principalities. They felt quite calm in it.

It is not by chance that the Germans under Gediminas called the capital of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania "the Russian city", and the Polish chroniclers - the "capital of the Greek [Orthodox] retirement." This is how strong Russian Orthodoxy was in Vilna. But unlike Catholicism, Orthodoxy did not try to become dominant. Apparently, this in Orthodoxy attracted the Grand Dukes of Lithuania.

About the Orthodox wives of Gediminas was mentioned in the previous article. It is known that most of his sons also professed Orthodoxy and married Russian princesses. The daughter of Gediminas, Maria, in 1320, married Tver Grand Prince Dmitry Mikhailovich the Terrible Eyes. Another daughter of Aigusta, at the baptism of Anastasia, in 1333, became the wife of Simeon Ivanovich Proud, Prince of Moscow and Grand Prince Vladimir.

At the same time ON and the Moscow principality remained rivals in the collection of Russian lands. Let me remind you once again that the Moscow principality at that time was a tributary of the Horde. All Eastern Russian principalities were her tributaries and vassals. This circumstance greatly facilitated for the Lithuanian princes the task of taking them under their arm. It is known that the Smolensk princedom and the Novgorod republic at that time were more Russian to Lithuania than to Moscow.

Gedimin's policy of expanding ON to the East was continued by Olgerd, one of his seven sons. Olgerd was born in 1296 from the Orthodox Polotsk Princess Olga Vsevolodovna and became Grand Duke of Lithuania in 1345.

Meanwhile, Lithuanian historians present Olgerd-Algirdas as an ethnic Lithuanian. In this regard, they argue that the name Algirdas (Algirdas) comes from the Lithuanian words “alga” - reward and “girdas” - hearing, news, and literally means “known reward”. There is a clear nonsense.

The version that Princess Olga called her son her joy, that is, “Olga” - “rd”, seems incomparably more substantiated. This decoding is given in order to show to what nonsense the Lithuanian historians are not shy of resorting in order to “prove” the Lithuanian origin of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania.

In addition, we once again recall the inscription on the Olgerd seal. It is made in the Old Slavonic language and Olgerd is referred to there not as Algirdas, but as “OLGER”.

A significant part of his life Olgerd lived in Orthodox Vitebsk. He was baptized in Orthodoxy under the name of Alexander. At twenty-two, he married an Orthodox Vitebsk princess, Maria Yaroslavna. After the death of her father reigned in the same Vitebsk.

Here it is necessary to make a retreat. In Lithuania, it is persistently claimed that Olgerd was a pagan. In this case, refer to the author Hermann Varberg "Livonian Chronicles." Meanwhile, it is known that the Germans always represented Litvin as pagan to justify their expansion into their lands.

Gustynskaya chronicle states otherwise. Olgerd was baptized before marriage with Mary. It `s naturally. In Orthodox Vitebsk, only an Orthodox prince could reign. Not to mention that Orthodox Olga, without a doubt, would try to baptize her son Olgerd after birth, so that the child would grow up healthy.

To resolve the dispute, we turn to the already mentioned Konrad Kiburgu. In his diary, he wrote about Olgerd’s attitude to Catholics: They “were few in number and despised during the reign of Olgerd” and experienced “government opposition”.

Especially Kiburg emphasized that while Prince Olgerd did not sympathize with paganism at all, he "professed Christianity according to Eastern rites, which, as is well known, was held by Grand Duchess Juliana (Olgerd's second wife, Princess Tverskaya. - V. Sh.)".

He explained Kyburg and the attributed to Olgerdu the execution of three future holy martyrs Anthony, John and Eustache, crucified in Vilna on the crosses. It turns out that once, in the absence of Olgerd, Vilna was struck by "some kind of infection and people died with extraordinary speed." A rumor was born that the monks were to blame. Excited crowd of citizens dealt with them. Some were hacked, others were thrown into the water, and three were crucified.

When he returned, Olgerd severely punished those responsible for insurrection and murder. More than thirty people “of both Lithuanians and Russians” were executed, and the castle garrison was completely replaced. However, responsibility for the crucifixion of the martyrs for some reason fell on Olgerd.

Having become the Grand Duke of Lithuania, Olgerd set a goal - to establish power over all of Russia. His ambassadors repeatedly stated: “All Russia must belong to Lithuania!” This phrase is often interpreted as invasive. However, it did not mean the influence of Russia. For Olgerd, it meant, above all, the establishment of ON power over Russia.

By the way, at that time, the Tver and Moscow princes set the same goal. With one difference. They were vassals of the Golden Horde. Therefore Olgerd succeeded more than them. The territory of ON with him doubled.

And it was no wonder. Under Olgerd, the Russian princes Rurikovich, whose possessions were absorbed by Lithuania, organically fit into the highest layer of the aristocracy of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The Lithuanian "conquerors" in the Russian principalities were treated calmly. There was no particular cause for concern. After all, the city was "taken" by an Orthodox prince Olgerd-Alexander with a retinue, the bulk of which were also Orthodox. Moreover, Olgerd appointed a moderate tribute, took the principality under protection and, most importantly, protected him from the encroachments of the Golden Horde. Why not live under the hand of Olgerd?

The success of such “seizures” was largely due to Olgerd’s second marriage. After the death of his first wife, Olgerd in 1350, he married Princess Ulyana (Juliana) Alexandrovna, the sister of Prince Alexander Alexandrovich of Tver. Tver was then Moscow's rival. She became a strong ally of Olgerd in the struggle with the Moscow prince for the Russian lands.

Thrice Olgerd went on trips to Moscow. In this case, the following is surprising. In the autumn of 1368 of the year and in December of 1370 of the year, the Lithuanian army surrounded the Moscow Kremlin, but it did not go offensively. Meanwhile, the stone walls of the Moscow Kremlin were erected literally on the eve of the arrival of Olgerd, who knew well that the “raw” walls could not stand the siege. But she did not follow!

In April 1372, the troops of Olgerd and Moscow’s Prince Dmitry Ioannovich (the future Donskoy), having stood against each other, dispersed, concluding the Lyubotinsky peace treaty. In this connection, some historians ask themselves the question, did Olgerd want to “take” the Moscow Kremlin? If you take into account his biography, then, apparently, not too much.

By the end of Algerd's life under the rule of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, there was a significant territory occupied by modern areas: Smolensk, Bryansk, Kaluga, Tula, Oryol, Moscow, Pskov, Novgorod. Under his rule, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania became the main bastion of resistance to the Mongol-Tatar expansion into the western Russian principalities.

In 1362, the Olgerd Russian-Lithuanian army near the Blue Waters River (left tributary of the Southern Bug) defeated three Tatar hordes - the Crimean, Perekopskaya and Yambalutsky, who were trying to subdue the Podolsk land again. The victory over them allowed Olgerd to dislodge the faithful of the Horde's Kiev Prince Feodor and put his son Vladimir in Kiev.

Without a doubt, Olgerd's victory in Blue Waters had a great psychological impact on the Russian princes of North-Eastern Russia, who paid tribute to the Mongol-Tatars and received from them labels on the board. Perhaps it inspired Prince Dmitry Nizhegorodsky in 1367 to give battle to Horde on the Pyan River and smash them.

Eleven years later, in 1378, the army of Dmitry Ivanovich of Moscow and the Great Prince of Vladimir (later Don) with the support of Ryazan on the Vozhe River (Oka's right tributary) defeated the Horde army under the command of the best commander of the Horde of Tatar murza Begić.

Well, in September 1380, the combined forces under the command of the same Moscow Prince Dmitry Ivanovich won a significant victory over the army of Beclarbek and temnik of the Golden Horde Mamai. On the Russian side, the Lithuanian regiments of the sons of Olgerd, the princes Andrei Olgerdovich Polotsky and Dmitry Olgerdovich Bryansky took part in the battle.

Speaking of ON, as a shield of Western Russian principalities from the Mongol-Tatars' encroachment, one should not forget that in the north-west the Teutonic Order represented a constant threat to the same principalities. But there the expansion of the German knights successfully opposed the troops under the leadership of the Grand Duke of Lithuania Keistut, co-ruler and brother Olgerd.

That is how ON in those hard times covered the Western Russian principalities from the Mongol-Tatar and Teutonic aggression. At the same time, the relations between VKL and Russia of Moscow were far from fraternal. It was natural, because at that time everyone was eager for supremacy over all.

At the end of the topic is a curious historical fact. Dying, Olgerd transferred the great reign to his beloved son from the second marriage of Jagiello, in Orthodoxy Jacob. In the 1381 year, four years after Olgerd’s death, Jagiello faced a serious choice.

Dmitry Donskoy, Prince of Moscow, after his victory over Mamai on the Kulikovo Field, Jagiello suggested a dynastic alliance, which was to be forged by marriage with the Moscow Princess Sophia. There was a real opportunity to unite the Lithuanian and Moscow principalities. The consequences of this association could have epoch-making meaning. But…

At the same time, Polish magnates promised Jagiello the royal throne with the condition of marrying Queen Jadwiga. The Lithuanian prince accepted the proposal of the Poles. The brilliance of the Polish Court seduced him. In 1385, he signed a dynastic union at Krevo Castle. According to her, he pledged to help Poland to return the lands seized from it, to attach its own to the Polish crown, and also to baptize the pagan population of the GDL to the Catholic Faith.

After the signing of the Krevo Union, Jagiello abdicated the Orthodox faith and converted to Catholicism. He was named Vladislav and in 1386, he was married to the Polish queen Jadviga. This was the beginning of a rapprochement between the Kingdom of Poland and the Kingdom of Poland. It turned out to be fatal for the fate of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. But it turned out only much later.

VITOVT - THE LAST GREAT PRINCE

The Grand Duke of Lithuania Vitovt (1350-1430) was the son of the Grand Duke of Lithuania Keistut and the pagan Samogitian priestess of Biruta. It is not by chance that during his lifetime he was called Great. Vitovt inherited luck and wit from Grandfather Gedimin, military courage from Father Keistut, and intelligence and diplomacy from Uncle Olgerd.


Vitovt, Grand Duke of Lithuania. Keistut's son, Olgerd's nephew and cousin Jagiello. The last ruler who defended the political independence of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania from Poland


At a difficult time, when the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was actually placed under the authority of the Polish Crown by the will of Jagiello, Vitovt managed to preserve the independence of the Lithuanian principality. He, in spite of the fatal twists and turns in fate, became the Grand Duke of Lithuania and delayed the incorporation of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania into the Kingdom of Poland for half a century.

Vitovt was baptized three times. For the first time in 1382, according to the Catholic rite under the name of Alexander. The second time in 1384 year - according to the Orthodox rite under the name Yuri and the third time in 1386 year, along with Uncle Jagaylo, according to the Catholic rite also under the name Alexander. In his position it was natural. Moreover, the examples of his predecessors contributed to this.

He had a difficult fate, during which he had to be not only a lion, but also a fox. Sometimes at the same time. That was the time. Surprisingly, when you read the diary of the aforementioned Kyburg, telling about those times, you understand: humanity has not changed much.

In this regard, I would like to wish some historians not to explain the behavior and actions of our ancestors by some contrived features of the time. We have not left much of them in the life plan and often do the same. Therefore, as the English monk and part-time philosopher William Ockham said: “Do not multiply the number of entities unnecessarily!”

Following the path of a lion and a fox, Vitovt significantly expanded the possession of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. In the east, they reached the headwaters of the Oka and Mozhaisk. In the south, Vitovt finally ousted the Horde from South Podolia and went out onto the shores of the Black Sea. During his reign, the name “Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Russian and Zhemoitskoe” finally consolidated with the state.

Vitovt continued the tradition of his predecessors to marry Orthodox Russian wives. The first wife of Vitovt was Princess Lukomskaya Maria. The second is the Smolensk Princess Anna Svyatoslavovna, who saved Vitovt from the prison of Krevo castle, where he was thrown by Uncle Jagiello, who became the Polish king.

Anna gave birth to Vitovt's daughter Sophia, who later became the wife of Prince Vasily Dmitrievich of Moscow. It is noteworthy that after the death of her husband in 1427, Sophia officially transferred the Moscow principality to Vitovt’s arm, that is, Moscow recognized itself as a vassal of ON. By the way, the Russian Tsar Ivan the Terrible was Vitovt's great-great-grandson.

The sovereign has established himself as a skillful diplomat. He, at the same time as gaining control over the Moscow principality, concluded treaties with the princes of Tver, Ryazan and Priska, according to which they also became his vassals. So, Vitovt's dynastic marriages and diplomacy worked on the elevation of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.


The warriors of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, on 9 / 10 consisting of the lands of the lost Kievan Rus, heroically resisted the onslaught of the Teutonic Order to the East


Like his predecessors, Vitovt was tolerant of Christians. But, in an effort to protect the principality from the aggression of the German knights "against the Lithuanian pagans", he equated Catholicism in rights with Orthodoxy. In this regard, Vitovt built a number of magnificent Catholic churches. Nevertheless, as already mentioned, the number of Orthodox churches in Vilna with him twice exceeded the number of Catholic ones.

Another curious fact. The aforementioned Konrad Kyburg reports in his diary that at the request of the wife of Vitovt, Orthodox Anna Svyatoslavovna, the magnificent Church of Sts. Was built in Vilna. Anne. In 1551, it was destroyed by order of King Sigismund Augustus. However, today in Vilnius there is an heir to the church of St.. Anne. Only now she bears the name of St. Ona (Šv. Onos). This is a genuine red brick miracle, which Napoleon said in 1812 that if he could, he would move this church to Paris.

Vitovt paid special attention to ensuring the equality of all peoples and nationalities living in the GDL. He succeeded. People of various nationalities lived, successfully worked and traded in Lithuania of that time. As a result, the principality grew rich and flourished. About this in sufficient detail told the same Kyburg.

The battle of Grunewald (1410 year), which put an end to the hegemony of the Teutonic Order, became the true crown of Vitovt's life. In this battle, he was commander in chief, and the fortitude of the three Smolensk regiments, which Vitovt led on the battlefield, decided the outcome of the battle of Grunwald.

All in all, under the banner of Vitovt, forty regiments came to the battlefield, or banners, as they were then called. Thirty-six of them were from the Russian principalities, which were then ON.

Meanwhile, in modern Lithuania, any mention of the role of "some Russian or Smolensk regiments" in the Battle of Grunwald causes indignation. Local historians claim that Smolensk was already Lithuanian since 1404, so in 1410 there was a “garrison of Lithuanian boyars” in the city. So they allegedly took part in the Battle of Grunwald. However, they are silent about what religion and nationality these "Lithuanian" boyars were.

Lithuanian unfortunate historians are unaware that with the scantiness of the territory of ethnic Lithuania and its population (5% of ON), sending even four regiments from ethnic Lithuanians to Grunewald was an achievement.


Military memory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania is alive. Modern military historical reconstruction in the Trakai castle


Speculation by Lithuanian historians on the greatness of the Lithuanian ethnic factor became possible due to the fact that the history of the GDL in Russia is not yet known. But in vain! This is part of the past of historical Russia. And not the worst. Moreover, for the Russian Federation, the historical experience of the GDL could be very useful.

Concluding the topic of Vitovt, I note that he was the last Grand Duke of Lithuania, during which the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was a truly independent state. After his death, the ON began to decline.

Strengthening ties with the Kingdom of Poland led to the forced implantation of Catholicism in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and then its Polonization. This destroyed the internal unity of the Lithuanian principality, which was the key to its prosperity. As a result, the mighty state began to fade away. This is worth talking in more detail.

ON AND SPEECH

Jagiello-Vladislav, becoming the “King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania and successor of Russia”, in February 1387, in the Grand-Ducal Palace in Vilna, organized together with the Catholic priests who came from Poland, to convert a large group of princes, boyars and knights before either pagans or orthodox.

At the same time, Jagiello presented to all those who accepted Catholicism clothes with expensive cloth, specially brought from Poland. Darmshchina at all times (as today) attracted people. Taking advantage of the moment, under the cheers of the crowd, Jagailo-Vladislav declared the Catholic faith the most important religion of the Grand Duchy.

In the same year 1387, Jagiello issued privileges (from Lat. Privilegium - special law), which gave Lithuanian feudal lords great rights and liberties to accept the Catholic faith. The novice received an unlimited right to possess and dispose of her estates in the GDL, and was exempted from a number of obligations. These privileges did not extend to the Orthodox nobility.

On the territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, this innovation was suspended by Prince Vitovt, who, relying on the Orthodox Russian boyars, sought independence of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania from the Polish Crown and from Jagiello-Vladislav. This struggle, with varying success, lasted until the 1392 year, until Jagiello was forced to conclude an agreement with Vitovt, the Ostrovsky agreement, under which Vitovt became the Grand Duke of Lithuania, and Jagiello retained the title of “Supreme Prince of Lithuania”.

Right up until his death, Vitovt opposed the polonization of Lithuania. In matters of religion, he sought to unite the Orthodox and Roman churches, considering Uniatism a compromise that can be made by both Orthodox and Catholics. But there were very few supporters of this idea, which concluded that the Orthodox Church recognized the Catholic dogmas and the supreme authority of the Pope of Rome, but retained ceremonies and divine services in Slavic languages.

Meanwhile, Jagiello continued to act, trying to fulfill the promises made to them when he received the crown. In the year 1413, the Lithuanian-Polish merger was again confirmed at the Sejm in Gorodnya. In Lithuania, the Seimas were established, the Lithuanian nobility was equalized with the rights of the Polish. However, the rights were granted only to "Roman Catholics under the authority". They received a number of economic privileges.

Orthodox feudal lords of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania not only did not receive these privileges, but also lost the right to elect the Grand Duke. He could now be chosen only by "gentlemen and gentlemen of the land of Lithuania, supporters of the Christian religion, the Roman Church, subservient, and not schismatics or other filthy." The decision of the Gorodnensky Diet confirmed the ban on marriages between Catholics and Orthodox! It was a blow to the very heart of the unity of the population of ON.

The mechanism of inter-religious and interethnic strife, launched by Yagaylo, gained destructive power every year, undermining the foundations of ON. In full force, he earned after the death of Vitovt, sowing intolerance in the principality, inequality and absurd prohibitions. At the same time, the polonization of the land ON was going at full speed. This was largely due to the incredible privileges of the Polish gentry, which attracted part of the Orthodox nobility ON.

It is known that the Grand Duke of Lithuania Alexander Yaggelonchik, entering the Polish throne in 1501, was forced to issue the Melnitsky Privilev, according to which Polish magnates had the right to disobey the king if their traditional rights were violated.

In 1505, Alexander had to agree with the adoption by Radom of the Seimas of a general set of laws, which significantly limited royal power in favor of the gentry. In fact, these were nails in the coffin of not only gentry democracy, but also the future state of the Commonwealth.

To confirm the conclusion about perniciousness for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth of gentry liberties I will cite one historical fact. In the first half of the 17th century, a Cossack centurion and the future hetman of the Zaporizhzhya Bogdan Khmelnytsky lived in the village of Subigov near the town of Chigirin. Being Orthodox, he, nevertheless, for many years faithfully served the Polish King Vladislav IV. As part of the royal troops even went on a campaign against Orthodox Smolensk.

But in 1645, the Polish nobleman Chaplinsky attacked the Khmelnytsky farm and sacked it. When Khmelnitsky demanded the return of the loot, Chaplinsky seized him and the eldest son of 13-year-old Timothy. Khmelnitsky was kept in chains for four days, and his son was almost caught to death.

Appeal to the Polish court was useless. The privileges of the Polish gentry at that time were paramount. Khmelnitsky turned to the Polish King Vladislav IV, whom he knew personally. He, complaining about the lawlessness of the nobility, said that the Cossacks, having sabers "at the sides," should themselves avenge their offenders. Khmelnitsky followed this advice and as a result, as you know, the Commonwealth lost a large part of Ukraine, which had gone under Moscow.

This was the beginning of the decline of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Russia and Zhemoitsky. Read more about this in the next article.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.specnaz.ru/
89 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Vadiara
    Vadiara 14 October 2013 09: 00 New
    15
    As living in Lithuania, it’s very interesting
    1. tverskoi77
      tverskoi77 14 October 2013 11: 47 New
      13
      As living in Lithuania, it’s very interesting

      As living in Russia, it is also very interesting.
    2. RUSSIA 2013
      RUSSIA 2013 14 October 2013 12: 33 New
      -5
      as living in Russia, I do not care how Lithuania is there, the question is different, squabbling for power, theft (example, Serdyukov, sour cream, Vasiliev .........), etc., etc.), we ourselves can manage our country , why do we allow these scumbags to power, who haven’t done anything for us, for their Motherland, since these Serdyukovs ruled in Russia, I’m ashamed to be Russian that these ghana ... are in power, and that I have in my passport no columns on nationality.
    3. honest jew
      honest jew 14 October 2013 13: 38 New
      +5
      By the way, in the picture to the article is a castle in Trakai. If anyone goes to Lithuania as a tourist, I advise you to visit !!! A beautiful place, and it’s not a sin to drink Lithuanian beer, eat Lithuanian zeppelins, enjoy the silence, you can even rent a boat and ride on the lake around the castle
      1. mamba
        mamba 14 October 2013 15: 05 New
        +1
        Quote: Honest Jew
        in the picture to the article is a castle in Trakai. If anyone goes to Lithuania as a tourist, I advise you to visit !!! A beautiful place, and Lithuanian beer is not a sin to drink

        I was there at the time when the 19th party conference was held in Moscow, and in Vilnius a scientific conference on semiconductor lasers. The spirit of democracy was in the city.
        Trakai (Trok island) castle majestically soared over the lake. The castle, it turns out, still stands on oak stilts.
        Well, and Lithuanian beer, of course, was drunk in fair quantities.
        1. Uhe
          Uhe 14 October 2013 18: 51 New
          0
          And their sausages are delicious :) Both milk and fish ...
      2. Uhe
        Uhe 14 October 2013 18: 51 New
        0
        Yes, I agree, very beautiful. I have been there many times in Soviet times. In general, Lithuania was healthy. Now I don’t know :) But it's worth going to the castle.
  2. dzen123
    dzen123 14 October 2013 09: 17 New
    19
    As a person living in Belarus, I can only complain about Zhmud (Zhemotiya, Samogitiya), which pulls on itself the "blanket" and introduces historical confusion by appropriating a name for itself. After all, even the emblem of modern Lithuania (Zhmudi) from time immemorial was a black bear on a yellow background - this was even reflected on the emblem of the Russian Empire. And the area occupied by present-day Lithuania, as part of the Republic of Ingushetia, was called Samogitiya - in the ON - Zhmud.

    Lithuania of the ON time is Grodno (Garadnya), Trokai, Vilnia, Krevo, Novogrudok, Volkovysk, Bialystok, and other cities in Western and Central Belarus.

    And Vilnius (present-day Vilnius) was never Zhmudsky.
    1. BUNKERSAN
      BUNKERSAN 14 October 2013 09: 27 New
      12
      I completely agree. Modern "Lithuanians" have forgotten history for their own good.
      1. Eternal demobilization
        Eternal demobilization 16 October 2013 16: 17 New
        0
        The hand of the geysoyuz and NATO is felt. Purely subjective opinion)))
    2. avt
      avt 14 October 2013 10: 10 New
      +3
      Quote: dzen123
      As a living in Belarus, I can only complain about Zhmud (Zhemotiya, Samogitiya), which pulls on itself a "blanket" and

      “Lithuanian would-be historians have no idea that, given the scanty territory of ethnic Lithuania and its population (5% of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania), sending even four regiments of ethnic Lithuanians to Grunwald was an achievement." ----- And fuck you will prove to them that they are to Vilno - Vilnius has nothing to do and should, well, as a fact, parting with the "totalitarian" Soviet past, give the present Belarus. laughing
      1. Ataman
        Ataman 14 October 2013 10: 50 New
        +7
        I completely agree. Modern "Lithuanians" have forgotten history for their own good.

        The zhemites have not forgotten anything; they ascribe to themselves someone else's story of their own without having it. The same is written in Belarusian history textbooks. And no one wants to write that Byala-Russians and Ukrainians are Polish nicknames for Russians.
        1. Liasenski
          Liasenski 14 October 2013 13: 29 New
          +4
          I will be frank and say what has matured in my brains after reading, frank propaganda of the greatness of the Russian people, but not the unity of the Slavic peoples. A little bitterness in the soul left. Another proof that history can be turned in the direction that is beneficial to the customer of a history textbook seems to be written correctly, but there remains some doubt about the sediment.
          1. xan
            xan 14 October 2013 14: 14 New
            +1
            Quote: Liasenski
            I will be frank and say what has matured in my brains after reading, frank propaganda of the greatness of the Russian people, but not the unity of the Slavic peoples.

            the unity of peoples in your understanding is Belarusians and Ukrainians as great as Russians. This song is already tired. The Russian Moscow elite with statehood and religion did not shy from side to side, did not change goals. Lithuanian (with Ukrainians) fell under the Poles, although it could unite with the Russian Moscow. Then there would be no division into Russian Ukrainians and Belarusians.
            Where is the greatness here? Your greatness has come after the unification by Russia into one state, and that is because the Russians considered you brothers.
            1. Liasenski
              Liasenski 14 October 2013 15: 12 New
              +3
              And why did the respected take what I mean only the Ukrainian and Belarusian peoples. Further debate with you, dear, is meaningless.
            2. GDP
              GDP 14 October 2013 16: 10 New
              +5
              They were and are our brothers - Belarusians are a great nation. All our greatest achievements are their achievements too! In all the wars of Russia, Belarusians stood at the forefront. We are one nation with a common great history, common victories and defeats, common sorrows and joys.
              1. Liasenski
                Liasenski 14 October 2013 17: 11 New
                +7
                Absolutely agree! We all forged our victories together and grieve in defeat together, but we gathered our strength and won. Russia is not only Russians, but also Belarusians, Ukrainians, Ossetians, Chechens, Chukchi, Adygeans - all the peoples who live on its territory. We have the same thing, Belarus - Russians, Ukrainians, Ossetians, Chechens, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians ... Everyone who lives on the territory of the Republic of Belarus. And woe to anyone who encroaches on our nationalities, on our territory. May it be aloud, but we are one family and together we can build a new story on the mistakes and grandeur of the past OUR HISTORY !!!
                1. xan
                  xan 14 October 2013 19: 09 New
                  -5
                  Quote: Liasenski
                  We all forged our victories together and mourned defeat together,

                  The most important victories of the Russians are the elimination of the Tatar yoke, the unification around Moscow, the solution of the troubled times (Ukrainians and Belarusians are on the enemy’s side), the Petrine time, the centuries of Elizabeth, Catherine and Alexander 1. Everything was done on the hump of a purely Russian people, and the valor of recruits with a pure Russian provinces-in other recruits did not recruit.
                  When the Russians solved the problems of survival, Belarusians and Ukrainians lay under the Poles, went to Moscow with the Poles. Then were you brothers too?
                  1. ruslan207
                    ruslan207 14 October 2013 21: 39 New
                    -2
                    xan -After a campaign in Poland in the 17th century by Mikhail Romanov or Ivan the Terrible, the population of Belarus decreased by 50%; Mstislavl was ruined and no longer rebuilt, so there was no need for a completely different time. On, the unification was against the Tatars and Krestanos
                    1. xan
                      xan 14 October 2013 22: 24 New
                      -2
                      Quote: ruslan207
                      After a campaign in Poland in the 17th century by Mikhail Romanov or Ivan the Terrible, Belarus’s population in Belarus decreased by 50%

                      The 17th century is a war after the Pereyaslavl Rada. Where does the data about 50% come from?
                      Quote: ruslan207
                      Mstislavl was ravaged and no longer rebuilt, so it wasn’t necessary then.

                      The most serious opponents of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania were not Tatars and Crusaders, but Moscow Russians, mentally and faithfully close, by faith. But the Grand Duchy of Lithuania preferred to unite with Poland; as a result, one nation was divided into Great Russians, Little Russians, and Belarusians. Well, where is the history of the great unity of the fraternal peoples?
                      1. ruslan207
                        ruslan207 14 October 2013 22: 26 New
                        0
                        Divided gentry, aristocracy
                      2. Rider
                        Rider 14 October 2013 22: 45 New
                        0
                        Quote: xan
                        The 17th century is a war after the Pereyaslavl Rada. Where does the data about 50% come from?

                        perhaps we are talking about the Russian-Polish war of 1654-1667gg.
                        as a result of which Russia regained Smolensk, Dorogobuzh, Belaya, Nevel, Krasny, Velizh, Seversky land with Chernigov and Starodub. In addition, Poland recognized Russia’s right to the Left Bank of Little Russia.
                        and (like) it is believed that the population of today's Belarus has "lost weight" by at least a third.

                        however, here is what I found on the net from the author of the book [b] "The Invisible Vine 1654-1667."
                        Read more: http://news.tut.by/society/296142.html
                  2. GDP
                    GDP 15 October 2013 09: 33 New
                    +1
                    And who was the first to take the blow of the German invaders, Napoleon? Who after the collapse of the USSR was the only one who did not turn his back on Russia? - Belarus!
                    Who was the first to expand the expanses of Siberia and stood guard over the North Caucasus? - Ukrainian Cossacks along with Russians. True, they were not called Ukrainian then, but in fact they are the descendants of those who now live in eastern Ukraine.
                    But the defense of Ukraine?
                    All our achievements are common, and if one delves into history so is so seductive that Novgorod was also the worst enemy of Muscovy.
                  3. Vasyan1971
                    Vasyan1971 21 October 2013 03: 33 New
                    0
                    Well, as far as I remember, the militia Minin and Pozharsky from the Moscow Kremlin were not picking out some Poles. There were enough of their native Russian-Pererussians in sufficient numbers there. And not all Litvins went to burn and rob. Time of Troubles, however
            3. old man54
              old man54 15 October 2013 02: 00 New
              +1
              Quote: xan
              The Russian Moscow elite with statehood and religion did not shy from side to side, did not change goals.

              here these p.r.o.s.t.i.t.t.s.c., then Moscow, are elitist, here it all started with them! From them the schism actually began among the Slavic peoples! But here they just whitewash themselves.
              1. xan
                xan 15 October 2013 12: 11 New
                0
                Quote: old man54
                here these p.r.o.s.t.i.t.t.s.c., then Moscow, are elitist, here it all started with them! From them the schism actually began among the Slavic peoples! But here they just whitewash themselves.

                Listen, non-reader writer, did you read the article? The ON elite, which included Belarusian and Ukrainian lands with the Orthodox population, fell under the Catholic Poles - this is a historical fact that cannot be falsified. And Muscovites are to blame. Are you stupid?
            4. Vitmir
              Vitmir 15 October 2013 18: 17 New
              -2
              Do not tell me why the elite of the European ON, with the first constitution and European mentality, then united with the Horde Moscow?
              1. xan
                xan 15 October 2013 19: 50 New
                -1
                [quote = VitMir] Do not tell me why the elite of the European ON, with the first constitution and European mentality, then was to unite with the Horde Moscow? [/ n]
                Yes, the flag in their hands!
                just do not blame Moscow for the split of the East Slavic peoples.
                And ON, neither the constitution, nor the European mentality helped - everyone was prosral, however, like the Poles. Why is the near glass piston?
                Zaruby yourself, Belarus - in Russian all the power of the Slavic world. In the rest there are only snot and whining, which you are successfully proving here.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. Vasyan1971
                  Vasyan1971 21 October 2013 03: 15 New
                  0
                  Why "unite"? Yes, to seize the land by the right of the "strong", but without much hassle and expense. The eternal dream of all sorts of different European elites
          2. GDP
            GDP 14 October 2013 16: 02 New
            +2
            Russians do not rank higher than Moscow, Lithuania, White, Kiev, Vladimir or Novgorod Russia. For us, this is all Great Russia! We set ourselves higher only because we strive more than anyone else for the unity of our common history and culture, but only in this. That is why Belarusians are so beloved in Russia, because many of them anger our thoughts. And this is why in Russia Western Ukrainians are so disliked, because they strive to divide our history towards the separation of a single people with common roots.
            And so it doesn’t matter to us how this Russia will be called, where its capital will be (though it doesn’t matter in St. Petersburg, Kiev or Minsk). The main thing is that Russia be One and Great!
      2. vkrav
        vkrav 14 October 2013 11: 07 New
        +2
        Quote: avt
        send even four regiments to Grunwald

        In fact, Poles and Czechs directly write that Smolensk regiments fought under Grunwald :)
        1. Rider
          Rider 14 October 2013 12: 23 New
          +5
          Quote: vkrav
          In fact, Poles and Czechs directly write that Smolensk regiments fought under Grunwald :)


          write, but just a couple of lines and in passing.
          in the same Sienkiewicz trilogy at the Battle of Grunwald, the Russian regiments were allotted several lines. and the main emphasis is on the great mighty knights of Poland.

          but vaabche, the topic is very interesting, it would be nice to develop, with facts and links.
          1. sichevik
            sichevik 14 October 2013 15: 02 New
            +4
            And Senkevich was always distinguished by Russophobia (as, indeed, all Poles). If we take his writings seriously, then there was no one in Europe powerful, stronger and more civilized than the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
            1. Gato
              Gato 14 October 2013 20: 46 New
              +1
              Quote: sichevik
              And Senkevich was always distinguished by Russophobia

              Nevertheless, the main characters of Senkevich's trilogy are precisely the so-called. "Russian gentry", with the exception of Pan Zagloba and Zhendyan, but these characters are just not at all heroic.
              Even the renegade Yarema Vishnevetsky is one of the ancient Russian family, well, everyone knows his story.
            2. Vasyan1971
              Vasyan1971 21 October 2013 03: 10 New
              0
              And what is characteristic, pay attention to an interesting regularity. The worse in Russia, the better Poland. And accordingly, vice versa. From the time of these to the present day. For which, in fact, proud gentlemen do not like us
    3. Uhe
      Uhe 14 October 2013 18: 54 New
      +1
      Do not worry, we will return a single space. Litas, armor and all Slavs are doomed to live together in a single state. It's just that people will not understand this yet, because their brains have been clouded, and the authorities do not want this, because it is nice to be the first guy in a village with one house. But as soon as the people take power, the three Slavic republics will again conclude a union treaty, the Baltic states will also catch up, having sipped European "happiness".

      Let me remind you that Ilya Murovlenin (a native of Murov), who later for some reason was made Muromets (a native of Murom), had a wife, Latygorka, that is, a Latvian. Not Lithuanian, but still the whole Baltic is not alien to us and is connected with us by one root. Even in languages, the general is visible.
    4. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 14 October 2013 21: 15 New
      +5
      I absolutely agree with you. But he wants to seem unremarkable to appear against the background of his European masters. According to this, due to certain circumstances (the similarity of the names of the states - Sov. Lithuania and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania) one has to plagiarize. It’s ugly somehow, gentlemen of Eurasia, to steal something. especially since old people called themselves LITHUANIANS, not Lithuanians hi
    5. RSA
      RSA 15 October 2013 01: 12 New
      -1
      nesmesite mileji belarusi, grodno i drugije ninesnije zemle padkantrolnije vam, bile litovskije, dasik por nemala v etix krajam naiminavajia litovskix, a savremeni liudi papavsijemi raviu riliuju imperiju bili zali nravi raviuju imperiju bili zavi , a zabili li (aukstaiti) (vise zemlia), kak i prusi (balti tretije, katorix krestanosci perebili) i jotvingi katorix zemli teper polskije, ani tozi poliakami bili, meniai nemenei no oficialniju isioi knieti :) front protiv litvi, a vot ideja a mozet ukraince toze litovci, tam toze zamkav mnogo LDK nu i tax dale, utesaite sebe ..
      1. Liasenski
        Liasenski 20 October 2013 20: 57 New
        0
        Write in Cyrillic, I did not fully understand you and therefore "-", maybe you really said something clever - I don’t know, and yet, I complained about your violation of the site rules, you write in a language I do not understand.
    6. Vitmir
      Vitmir 15 October 2013 18: 19 New
      0
      That's right, PPKS!
    7. RSA
      RSA 3 November 2013 02: 40 New
      0
      ja nepanimaju kak vi ...... zmudi zmudi, a vi zabili aukstaiti (google aukstaitija) vakrug katorix nacija LTU vazrasla, ana na teritorijax vilniusa i na BLR absirnix bila, a jotvingi (google jotvingiai) juznaja LTznaja LT GOOGLE ZEMAITIJA) rec at litovskava atliciajietsa kak BLR jazik at RUS, prosto ciast ix nacila gavarit pa vasimu, kak i ciast paliakami stalo, nu vi pasmatrite na LTU karalievstva (gogle LIETUVOS KARALYST1253 bart 1263) v goole i kak LTU patom nacila vazrastat, tam pacti vsie ninisnieji ziemli LTU i tie katorijie vam peredali (no ix TAM malo) nu aciom riec mozet bit iescio, eta prostapropoganda, i formiravanija naroda BLR, ATUNA NADA NATA
    8. The comment was deleted.
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 3 November 2013 23: 35 New
        0
        Quote: RSA
        teritorija nakatorai gavarili v 16 veki na,

        You read in Russian, learn to write in it.
  3. Was mammoth
    Was mammoth 14 October 2013 10: 14 New
    +6
    With that internecine strife and strife in Russia, the disgraced princes and boyars from Moscow always fled to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. "These are despicable traitors" - I thought. And they fled, it turns out, to their own people, one in Tver, in Ryazan ... How bad, after all, we know the history of our country.
    Who knows if Jagiello did not accept Catholicism, maybe the capital of Russia would be on the shores of the Baltic Sea? wink
    Catholics! West! In Ukraine, too, there are traces of their activities. There are people in Ukraine who call themselves Rusyns. These are those who did not become Uniates or Catholics. How much they overworked because they did not give up their faith.
    1. Rider
      Rider 14 October 2013 12: 19 New
      +2
      Quote: There was a mammoth
      "These are despicable traitors," I thought. And they ran, it turns out, to their own.


      there was a reverse process, from the ON to Moscow.
      primarily for religious reasons, they were also economic, because Moscow princes also pursued a policy of attracting Russian Orthodox boyars from the GDL to their side.
    2. Orik
      Orik 14 October 2013 13: 24 New
      +3
      With that feud and strife in Russia, disgraced princes and boyars from Moscow always fled to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

      They did not flee, but crossed over, this custom extended to everyone from boyars to peasants. Anyone could go to the service of the new ruler, for example, the Volyn boyar Bobrok went to St. Dmitry Donskoy. Gradually, this custom was brought to naught by the powers that be, and it is understandable who needs the constant migration of basic resources! The end was put by the introduction of consolidation (or serfdom), first for the boyars and nobles, and only later for the peasants, which was undoubtedly beneficial for the formation of Russian statehood at that stage. The system "The Tsar serves God, the nobility to the Tsar, the peasants to the nobles" began to exist, when the nobility did not want to serve, the system went into a rage, which ended in 1917.
      1. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 14 October 2013 15: 16 New
        0
        Quote: Orik
        They didn’t run, but crossed ...

        Disgraced, it was running. Therefore, I thought that traitors easily changed faith. Therefore, I gave an example of Rusyns. Uniates could not break them. And the descendants of the Uniates, this is Bandera and their followers.
      2. Gato
        Gato 14 October 2013 20: 59 New
        +2
        Quote: Orik
        They didn’t run, but switched; this custom extended to everyone from the boyars to the peasants. Anyone could go to the service of the new ruler, for example, the boyar Volyn Bobrok went to St. Dmitry Donskoy.

        Naturally, because in those days the concept of a national state simply did not exist. They served the feudal overlord, not the state. This was the case everywhere - both in Europe and in Russia. Examples simply in bulk - the same Prince of Kurbsky, who fled to ON.
    3. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 14 October 2013 20: 09 New
      +1
      The ON received not only disgraced Russians, but also Horde dissidents. The article describes the relationship between the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Horde in an extremely one-sided way, they say, the Lithuanians beat the Tatars. In fact, the princes of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania received labels from the khans of the Horde, although in the end they received them purely nominally "by inertia." The Litvins were the first to predict that the Horde was already the same, and willingly played on political conflicts within the Horde. The princes of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania received the Horde Chingizids with whole troops. In the Battle of Grunwald, Sultan Jalaladdin with his wars took an active part on the side of the Slavs. Remnants of the steppe inhabitants (Polish-Lithuanian Tatars) still live in Lithuania, Belarus and Poland, although they have already lost their language and Muslim faith, and many simply assimilated. By the way, the aforementioned Polish writer Heinrich Sienkiewicz is one of these Tatars.
      1. Orik
        Orik 14 October 2013 21: 31 New
        +2
        However, as well as the Moscow principality, which, after the victory of Islam in the horde, accepted the escaped Tatar moors to serve.
  4. The comment was deleted.
  5. Augustswsw
    Augustswsw 14 October 2013 10: 27 New
    +7
    It seems to me now Ukraine is repeating the path of ON. Close integration with the West, contrary to historical and national traditions, leads only to the disintegration and many troubles of the inhabitants. As a result, everything will return to square one and the brothers will be together, but no one knows how much blood will be shed for this.
    1. Rider
      Rider 14 October 2013 12: 28 New
      +2
      Quote: Augustwsw
      As a result, everything will return to square one and the brothers will be together, but no one knows how much blood will be shed for this.


      the second Pereyaslav Rada - to be!
      that's just how many hardships will fall on the share of independent.
      but they have no other way
    2. Starfish
      Starfish 14 October 2013 14: 15 New
      +3
      but it seems to me that the fall of Lithuania happened naturally, the connection with Poland could not lead to good by definition
    3. Vasyan1971
      Vasyan1971 21 October 2013 03: 02 New
      0
      Big PLUS! Well, Jagaila has integrated into the "enlightened" Europe. How did it end? Bloody lawlessness and disintegration of the state. People don't learn anything. It's a pity
  6. Ulan
    Ulan 14 October 2013 10: 38 New
    +4
    It is very interesting about the Battle of the Blue Waters. Some Ukrainian interlocutors (in particular on the Km.ru forum) claim that the Golden Horde was defeated by some "Ukrainians-Rus."
    Judging by the article, and the Swede is a very authoritative researcher, Olgerd had a Russian-Lithuanian army and at that time we were not talking about any "Ukrainians" ... but rather over the Crimeans, which does not diminish the feat of the soldiers. Prince Fyodor was loyal to the Horde.
    So, we are not talking about any victory over the Golden Horde. The meeting with the troops of the Golden Horde under the command of Edigey, at the Vorskla River ended in defeat of the Russian-Lithuanian army.
    In this battle, the famous military leader of that time and ally of Dmitry Donskoy, Bobrok Volynsky, died.
  7. svp67
    svp67 14 October 2013 10: 50 New
    +2
    I want to appeal to those readers who, perhaps, believe that the theme of Rus Lithuanian is irrelevant for the Russians. Meanwhile, it is known that ignoring certain historical periods of the formation of the Russian state, especially those connected with neighboring countries, often leads to contrived problems in relations with them. What today is observed in relations between Lithuania and Russia.
    Author Vladislav Shved


    Even the author's surname says that he is one of those who "came" to Russia, but thoughts ... He is a truly RUSSIAN person. Thank you so much for the article, of course it is NOT ABLE to describe the entire history of Russia, or rather its part - ON, but it can show the way for those who want to know more about the history of Russia. And do not be afraid to learn something that semi-official "historians" try to avoid in every possible way, HISTORY HAS NEVER BEEN DONE IN WHITE GLOVES.
    THANKS again and "+"
  8. Gorinich
    Gorinich 14 October 2013 10: 53 New
    +5
    The article raises an interesting topic. But it requires many clarifications.
    1. It is not clear why the author himself considers the inhabitants of the GDL to be Lithuanians, (today's Lithuania). Residents of the ON are Litvins, mostly Slavs who had written language. Jemites at the time of the ON did not have a written language and borrowed it from the Slavs. As a result, Lithuanian words written in Latin (adopted during the time of the Commonwealth) can be read as Russian words, but written in a different alphabet.
    2. The center of education of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was Novogrudok, the first goal of which was the resistance to the centuries-old expansion of the Germans. The princes of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania were ousted to the Novogrudok region from Porus (a little later this area was called Prussia). They came to Porus Russia from Polab Rus (apparently this is the second wave of emigration, the first wave is the arrival of Rurik in Ladoga).
    By the way, lyutov (wolves) totem of one of the tribes of Polaba Rus.
    3. Mindovigi are relatives of the Rurikovechi from one place, from one clan. Since in the Middle Ages, the basic concepts were not the people or the homeland, but belonging to the family and vassal subordination.
    All this allows us to look at our history somewhat differently.
    1. svp67
      svp67 14 October 2013 11: 14 New
      0
      Quote: Gorinich
      But it requires many clarifications.

      Exhausting knowledge - on the road ...
  9. quolta
    quolta 14 October 2013 11: 14 New
    +1
    An interesting article I live in Smolensk I would like to continue in more detail
    1. washi
      washi 14 October 2013 12: 45 New
      0
      Quote: Quantu
      An interesting article I live in Smolensk I would like to continue in more detail

      Search and find.
      There are many books on this subject. Which of them will you take for truth - your choice
  10. OneMoreDay
    OneMoreDay 14 October 2013 11: 16 New
    0
    Myth making.
    The exaltation of the ON, the belittling of the eastern principalities.
    Let's compare the "lack of principle" and "oppression" of Russia
    Brother went to his brother to please the Horde ... Once again, I recall that the Principality of Moscow at that time was a tributary of the Horde ...
    and "nobility" of Lithuania
    protected him from the encroachments of the Golden Horde ... who knew well that the "damp" walls could not withstand the siege. But she did not follow!
    The text says a lot about Lithuania as a defender:
    The ON was the main bastion of resistance to the Mongol-Tatar expansion of the Western Russian principalities ... Speaking of the ON, as a shield of the Western Russian principalities from encroachments on the Mongol-Tatars,
    But doubts arise why The consequences of concluding a contract with the ON for Smolensk were quite unpleasant ... Smolensk with great difficulty survived.
    This paragraph generally finishes: Without a doubt, Olgerd's victory in Blue Waters had a great psychological impact on the Russian princes of North-Eastern Russia, who paid tribute to the Mongol-Tatars and received from them labels on the board. Perhaps it inspired Prince Dmitry Nizhegorodsky in 1367 to give battle to Horde on the Pyan River and smash them. If the author has no doubts, then it still seems to me that the Horde was already different and the processes of its disintegration and loss of influence are mainly internal.
    I think the text is biased and of little use
    1. Vasyan1971
      Vasyan1971 21 October 2013 02: 56 New
      0
      Exactly! This means that the godless Mongols (who are also Tatars) burned and plundered Eastern Rus, and then, in an embrace, they could not cope with Smolensk with Kalita. Crushed to see the people. And also imagine a picture - to gather in Moscow, mobilize an army (not a close squad of throat-grabbing wolves "always ready"), set up a supply-logistics supply, march to a place (how many miles?), On the way there is no burning anything, nobody to rob, not to lift anyone's skirts (unless by mutual agreement), impose an adversary and ... wave a pen, like "it didn't hurt, I wanted to!" Moreover, the walls of the Kremlin are "damp" - they built the cement in three days, I didn't have time to grab ... M-dya. Unclear somehow
  11. 11111mail.ru
    11111mail.ru 14 October 2013 11: 23 New
    +5
    "In total, under the banner of Vitovt, forty regiments, or banners, as they were called then, came to the battlefield. Thirty-six of them were from the Russian principalities that were then part of the ON." A question to the proud pshek also to the readers of G. Senkevich "The Crusaders" and to the audience of the film of the same name produced by the Polish People's Republic: how many Polish troops were there under Grunwald?
    1. sq
      sq 14 October 2013 13: 01 New
      +2
      Senkevich's Crusaders is an artistic and political book, and its historical accuracy is very low. No less interesting is the book "The Pursuit of Grunwald", I don't remember the author, there are fewer fairy tales. On www.secret-r.net there should be detailed articles on this topic.
    2. Kostya pedestrian
      Kostya pedestrian 15 October 2013 08: 36 New
      0
      And how many Russian Tatars fought in the Great Patriotic War? Such sub-issues are more characteristic of submarine sailors, for delivering torpedo-targeted attacks on the convoy of ships, to instill in their panic, you see they will sink their own.

      Russian historiography generally kept silent about this battle, and it is not surprising - how a handful of unworthy Polish servants of God and Lithuanian "heretics" with Rusyns on their heads defeated the order, blessed by themselves belay dad, straight from the Vatican itself, and even gathered so many noble knight-crusaders under the tunic of the extra-virgin Mary. H


      And don’t run into the Poles, it’s not sweet for them, it’s like a Catholic country, and Oryol is a symbol of the swastika god of war, or, perhaps, the ancient Greek god Zeus, then brothers in faith or enemies? Or, in general, they have a separation of personality - although a healthy mind tells them where they are equal among equals, and where are the killers of Copernicus.

  12. 320423
    320423 14 October 2013 11: 43 New
    0
    It’s useful to know the story, the article has an excellent solution for Russians in the Baltic states (not citizens), for Russians let the usual rules of trade and transit apply, but for everyone else they have barrage rules. That's how we solve the problems of Russians in the Baltic states, and let their politicians even look around. Or they accept Russian citizenship and Orthodoxy, they don’t, in principle, continue to trade with Europe, so they have a choice. That's how to solve the problems of oppressing the Russians, zero cost to the budget and effective assistance to our compatriots abroad.
  13. Kostya pedestrian
    Kostya pedestrian 14 October 2013 12: 56 New
    +1
    I would like to answer many questions: “arguing who the Litvinians are by nationality is the same as arguing why the citizens of Kievan Rus were not given Russian citizenship?”

    In general, if you look at the history in the complex, you can see that the Principality of Galicia under Daniil of Galicia completely fell under the horde and began to rapidly lose touch with Kievan Rus and Rusyns, while the Polotsk and Novogrudok lands strictly adhered to the traditions of Kievan Rus, and they then formed the basis of the Principality of Lithuania.

    Which, in turn, pretty much influenced the formation and expansion of the Moscow principality. Not to mention the introduction of Moscow to the idea of ​​a Great Power as a continuer of the traditions of Constantinople, destroyed by the crusaders, which more than once served Russia as a "winning card" in all kinds of disputes and conflicts. It also bore a unifying character for the Russian peoples themselves. Not to mention the creation of a professional army, incl. artillery and guard.
    1. kin
      kin 14 October 2013 17: 11 New
      +1
      I really liked your phrase about Russian citizenship. Likewise, debaters about Russian statehood (Normanists) can apply for citizenship in the Scandinavian countries.
  14. washi
    washi 14 October 2013 12: 59 New
    0
    ignoring certain historical periods in the formation of the Russian state, especially those associated with neighboring countries, often leads to far-fetched problems in relations with them. What today is observed in relations between Lithuania and Russia.
    I don’t understand where is Modern Lithuania? What does the crush have to do with both Russian states.
    If we remove the historical inconsistencies, there is only one conclusion: the top of the Russian state was sold for gingerbread to the West (in this case, to the Krakow principality (sorry, but that stump cannot be called Poland) and the Pope of Rome. As a result, Poland received occupation of the original Russian lands with Catholic orders, and in later by German and Scandinavian tribes, the destruction of the indigenous population - Russians, or their reformatting into Belarusians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Prussians (instead of Slavic Prussians)
    1. Rider
      Rider 14 October 2013 13: 09 New
      +3
      Quote: Vasya
      I don’t understand where is Modern Lithuania? What does the crush have to do with both Russian states.


      Grief and sadness covered the Estonians with their gray shroud. There is a national tragedy in Estonia ... The Estonians turned out to be not "relatives" of the Finns, but the descendants of the Russians ...

      As explorer Tynu Esco explains:

      "The lowest difference index is observed for Estonians with northwestern Russians, Latvians, Lithuanians and Poles."

      http://alternate-politics.info/content/strashnaya_tragediya_nakryla_estoniyu
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 14 October 2013 20: 00 New
        -2
        Quote: Rider
        As explorer Tynu Esco explains:

        "The lowest difference index is observed for Estonians with northwestern Russians, Latvians, Lithuanians and Poles."

        The "Northwest Russians" are the Russified Finno-Ugric peoples. Estonians are genetically closer to this part of today's Russians than to the Finns. Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles, Belarusians, Ukrainians and Russians from other regions of Russia have a small Finno-Ugric admixture.
        1. Rider
          Rider 14 October 2013 22: 24 New
          +2
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          The "Northwestern Russians" are the Russified Finno-Ugric peoples.


          I didn’t know that Novgorod and Pskov built finns.

          out of sight ...
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 15 October 2013 08: 16 New
            +1
            St. Petersburg was also not built by the Finno-Ugric people, but the land was theirs. Novgorod in general was originally founded by the Scandinavians, who came there earlier than the Eastern Slavs "by five minutes." But the newcomer Scandinavians were quickly assimilated by the same newcomer Slavs. Well, the natives there were assimilated.
            The ancestors of the Russians quickly moved from West to East (in this case, the present northwestern part of Russia - "East"), and they assimilated the Finno-Ugric peoples they met along the way in the same way as the Pruschians at the same time assimilated the Western Slavs.
            1. Rider
              Rider 15 October 2013 11: 26 New
              0
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              Novgorod in general was originally founded by the Scandinavians, who came there earlier than the Eastern Slavs "by five minutes."

              You do not mean Rurik mean?
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              But the alien Scandinavians were quickly assimilated by the same alien Slavs. Well, the natives there were assimilated.

              Well, it’s debatable about newcomers, there is no definite data.
              since cities like Slovensk and Staraya Ladoga are mentioned in the annals, the latter did have a mixed population.

              however, even if we take on faith the "arrival" of the Slavs, this does not mean at all that ALL "northwest" is the Finougri, since the assimilation is subjected to smaller peoples, and not vice versa.

              therefore, it would be more correct to say: "Northwestern Russians" are partially Russified Finno-Ugric
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 15 October 2013 22: 52 New
                +1
                Quote: Rider
                You do not mean Rurik mean?

                No. Even before Rurik, the coming of the Scandinavians began there, whom the Finns called "ruotsi" ("rowers"). If I am not mistaken, the Scandinavian colonization in those places began literally only a few decades earlier than the beginning of Slavic colonization, judging by the archaeological excavations.
                Quote: Rider
                Well, it’s debatable about newcomers, there is no definite data.

                There is. Archeology based data. And here is just an excerpt from Wikipedia about the etymology of Staraya Ladoga:
                The Scandinavian name for Ladoga is Aldeigya, Aldeiguborg (other Scand. Aldeigja, Aldeigjuborg), the first written mention of which is in the original form of the other Scand. Aldeigjar meets in the poem “Bandadrapa” by Ejolv Dadaskalda (in Swiss), composed about 1010 in honor of Jarl Eirik.
                The name of the city was derived from the name of Lake Ladoga (from Fin. * Aaldokas, aallokas “worried” from aalto “wave”), or from the name of the Ladoga river (now Ladozhka, from Fin. * Alode-joki, where alode, aloe - “low terrain ”and jok (k) i -“ river ”).
                As T.N. Jackson writes, “by now it can be considered almost proven that the name of the river first appeared, then the city, and only then the lake.” Therefore, she considers the primary hydronym of Ladoga, from dr.-fin. * Alode-jogi (joki) “lower river”. From the name of the river came the name of the city of Dr. Scand. Aldeigja, and it was already borrowed by the Slavic population and transformed using the metathesis ald → lad into other Russian. Ladoga. According to T. N. Jackson, the Scandinavian medium between the Finnish and Old Russian words is confirmed by archaeological material: the Scandinavians on Ladoga first appeared in the early 750s, that is, a couple of decades earlier than the Slavs.

                Quote: Rider
                however, even if we take on faith the "arrival" of the Slavs, this does not mean at all that ALL "northwest" is the Finougri, since the assimilation is subjected to smaller peoples, and not vice versa.

                A significant mass of Finno-Ugric people not only underwent Russian assimilation, but also Turkic (Volga-Ural region). I don’t know why the Finno-Ugric people turned out to be so susceptible to foreign cultures, but the fact remains that these tribes were prone to the rapid loss of their language and culture, despite their relative abundance. In addition, it must be taken into account that the process has been going on for many centuries. If I’m not mistaken, even before the middle of the 20th century there were many representatives of this ethnos in the Leningrad Region, now they are all Russified.
                A vivid example of the assimilation of large nations can be considered the current Turks. The Turkic nomads who conquered Byzantium were much fewer than the local Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds, however, literally over several centuries the Byzantines became insurgent and now beat themselves with their fists in their hairy chest, claiming that they are direct descendants of the Oghuz-Seljuks)))
  15. mamba
    mamba 14 October 2013 15: 41 New
    +1
    at the request of the wife of Vytautas the Orthodox, Anna Svyatoslavovna, a magnificent church of St. Anne. In 1551, it was destroyed by order of King Sigismund Augustus. However, today in Vilnius there is an heiress to the church of St. Anne. Only now she bears the name of St. They (Šv. Onos). This is a true miracle of red brick, about which Napoleon in 1812 said that if he could, then he transferred this church to Paris ..
    Perhaps in the 16th century it was a church, although according to other sources it was a wooden church, but now it is a Roman Catholic church, a monument of Gothic architecture. The building is striking in its splendor and grace. It seems to be trying to fly up.
  16. nnz226
    nnz226 14 October 2013 15: 50 New
    +6
    Present-day Lithuania has the same relation to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as the Kemsk Volost. Zhmud or Samogitia in the language of the aborigines was a remote outskirts of the ON, which, perhaps, princes did not lose at cards. And trying to match the names of the former GRAND PRINCIPLE and the nonesh backyards of Geyropa is bad manners! ON is mainly the territory of present-day Belarus and part of Ukraine. The family castle of "Lithuanian" tycoons - the Radziwills is located in the Belarusian Nesvizh, 80 km from Minsk. By the way, Senkevich in "The Crusaders" has a description of the Battle of Grunwald, as the inhabitants of Zhmudi are generally depicted there as savages in skins, armed with a cudgel. It is clear that Lyakh turns up his nose in this opus, but "there is no smoke without fire"
  17. Galan
    Galan 14 October 2013 17: 50 New
    0
    "That was how the rapprochement between the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Kingdom of Poland began. It turned out to be fatal for the fate of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania."
    And if the eastern Russian principalities were annexed to the Lithuanian principality, would Russia be? Or, with the polonization of the eastern principalities, the fate of the Khmelnitsky ball would be a reality for many Russian Orthodox? Only there would be no one to help, because Moscow would also be part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
    1. OneMoreDay
      OneMoreDay 15 October 2013 09: 27 New
      0
      History does not know the subjunctive mood (c).
      The course of history shows that the Moscow principality survived, other Tver, Lithuania would have to "repeat" the path of Moscow in order to take its place. That is, to act in a similar way, to have a similar state policy, organization. In general, to take the place of Moscow, one had to become Moscow ... or disappear
    2. Vitmir
      Vitmir 15 October 2013 18: 01 New
      +1
      Polonization is a necessary step in terms of self-defense of the ON from the onslaught of Moscow.
      Orthodoxy is by no means a privilege of Moscow.
      Khmelnitsky acted not in a strategic, but in a tactical / operational framework - he looked only for temporary allies in the struggle against Poland and Lithuania.
  18. zub46
    zub46 14 October 2013 18: 26 New
    +3
    Surprisingly, in my area (the southern end of the Kursk region), they still remember that these territories were part of the Grand Duke of Lithuania. In 2003, there was even an article in a local newspaper with the title: "Five hundred years as we are Russians ..." The information presented in it does not generally differ from the publication we are discussing. It is interesting that, among other things, our regional newspaper gave a description of the origin of the word "m.s.k.a.l.l." It turns out that this is not an abusive, not derogatory word. This was the name of the Orthodox Russians, citizens of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, who did not want to convert to Catholicism when Lithuania and the territories that were under the Grand Duchy of Lithuania were pollinated, and through a series of wars of local importance they achieved the transition to the protection of the Moscow Tsar.
  19. Djozz
    Djozz 14 October 2013 19: 03 New
    0
    Maybe enough about the Tatar-Mongol yoke, tired! Look at the distance from Mongolia to the VLK, they (nomad !!!), that almost every year they gathered in a "horde" and galloped to the ON. I have a question, the number of riders and horses in the "horde" providing food and fodder for war horses, and how many days a war horse covered the distance. PY.SY. During the Battle of Borodino, it was impossible to gallop a horse more than 3 times. In ancient Greece, horses were not used for reports, people (Marathon battle) why?
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 15 October 2013 09: 54 New
      +1
      because the steppe horse breeds (Kazakh, Mongolian, Kalmyk, Kyrgyz, Yakut) are different from European or Arabian horses, just like a jeep is different from a limousine.
      and food for steppe horses does not need to be harvested unlike European breeds. the steppe horse finds feed itself, so the steppe’s head does not hurt on this problem.
      1. Djozz
        Djozz 15 October 2013 13: 05 New
        0
        It’s on a free grazing, but as in a military campaign, the first will eat and trample all the grass, and in winter it will crash! So how many horses the Mongols had on their campaign to Russia, and what the Mongols ate, just don’t need fables because they drank the blood of horses and were fed up!
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 15 October 2013 19: 17 New
          +1
          Quote: Djozz
          It’s on a free grazing, but as in a military campaign, the first will eat and trample all the grass, and in winter it will crash!

          Oddly enough, but in the steppe, which spilled from Mongolia to Hungary, there is more grass than horses) Yes, and especially steppe horse breeds do not need much grass. They are much smaller than European horses, while more hardy and patient to need. Moreover, the steppe horses even behind the steppe pedals - on the Korean Peninsula or the Middle East felt great. You tell Koreans or Arabs that no Horde people came to them, but imagined them. And history books they wrote nasty Germans.
          Quote: Djozz
          So how many horses the Mongols had on their campaign to Russia, and what the Mongols ate, just don’t need fables because they drank the blood of horses and were fed up!

          Take data on the number of troops for each specific campaign of the steppe and multiply by 2-3 additional horses for each war.
          In general, here's a link on the "horse" topic - http://annales.info/step/dolbe/stephors.htm. I think it will be informative for you to learn what kind of animal such a steppe horse is, and why the nomads managed to do what the troops of the settled peoples never managed to do with their horses.
          The Kazakh horse today can walk up to 300 kilometers without horseshoes in a day and will not particularly grumble about this. Comparing Russian, European, Arabian horse breeds with the steppe is like comparing a Rottweiler and a Chihuahua. Both Rottweiler and Chihuahua are dogs. But the difference is huge. So it is with horses.

          ZY Read at least one description of the "Kirghiz-Kaisaks" by Russian pre-revolutionary ethnographers. You will see that the main diet of nomads in summer is mare's milk and kurt (dried cheese) and tea; then dried meat, freshly caught steppe game, unleavened flat cakes and baursaks (pieces of dough fried in deep fat). In winter, they leaned on horse meat, lamb, camel meat, which was slaughtered in the fall and prepared for winter storage ("sogym").
          Z.Z.Y. The troops are moving forward rapidly, and behind are the rear with flocks of sheep. And if necessary, it is possible even without the rear, taking food from the local population.
          In a live horse, you can safely drink blood from an artery and then use a clay and grass to hammer the wound. The steppe horse will endure this stoically. Now the Turks do not use animal blood, because Islam forbids this. Mongolian peoples still enjoy the blood of horses.
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 15 October 2013 10: 48 New
      +1
      Quote: Djozz
      Look at the distance from Mongolia to the VLK they (a nomad !!!), that almost every year they gathered in a "horde" and galloped to the ON.

      Look at the biography of the Edyge temnik I mentioned below. Now he is in the western part of the Horde, then in Central Asia near Tamerlane, then again in the west, then in the now Ukrainian steppes he beats the "Lithuanians", then in Siberia he finishes Tokhtamysh, then Khorezm captures, then besieges Moscow. And he was killed in the Urals.
      Nomads are more mobile than settled peoples. Just take it as a fact.
      1. Djozz
        Djozz 15 October 2013 13: 08 New
        0
        To organize the nomads into a combat-ready army and reach Hungary, it is beyond belief and looks like a fable!
        1. Rider
          Rider 15 October 2013 14: 09 New
          +1
          Quote: Djozz
          To organize the nomads into a combat-ready army and reach Hungary, it is beyond belief and looks like a fable!


          not quite so, just nomads are mobile in nature, and to organize an army (horde) from them and send it to the ends of the world, much more possible than from settled peoples.

          but you are right (in your own way) without a feed and industrial base, long trips are problematic.

          therefore, I am inclined to a version of the symbiosis of the steppe and settled peoples, many travelers described Sarai as a quite modern (at that time) city.
          with numerous artisans and craftsmen.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 15 October 2013 23: 25 New
            0
            Quote: Rider
            but you are right (in your own way) without a feed and industrial base, long trips are problematic.

            There is food supply for steppe horses almost everywhere, except for the desert sands. With regard to the industrial base, the field blacksmithing was developed among the nomads since ancient times. Russian ethnographers of the 19th century noted that any Kazakh nomad is his own blacksmith and saddler, making his own everything necessary for a nomadic life. Genghis Khan was proud that his family was the best blacksmiths in their part of the Steppe. His real name Temirchi / Temirshi, which translates as "Blacksmith" (and the name "Temujin" is not found either among the Turks or among the Mongols, it was taken from the Chinese chronicles. The Chinese are not able to pronounce the sound "r", therefore all foreign names where this sound met, they shamelessly distorted). In general, names where the word "temir" ("iron") is based on a gigantic mass of personal names for both the Turks and the Mongols - Temirbek, Temirzhan, Timur, Temirlan, Khantemir, Zhantemir, Temir-Kutlug, Temirbai, Baytemir, Demir, etc. It is probably impossible to count how many names there are with this root.
            Sabers, for example, were made by nomads without the help of sedentary peoples, who got acquainted with this type of cold weapon precisely from the nomads. Although the sedentary artisans of the East later created the best examples of sabers from high-quality steel. After the invention of damask steel, nomads immediately appreciated its quality, but rarely bought a finished product, preferring to buy just damask steel, and then they independently forged their sabers from this type of metal. And even firearms ("karamultuki") were made by the steppe dwellers on their own up to the present time (the reason is simple - in the Russian Empire until 1917 it was forbidden to sell firearms and spare parts to Kazakhs).
            Quote: Rider
            I am inclined to a version of the symbiosis of the steppe and settled peoples, many travelers described Sarai as a quite modern (at that time) city with many craftsmen and craftsmen.

            Well, Duc Turks since ancient times are not only nomads, but also sedentary inhabitants. European nations clashed with the armies of the steppes - nomads, and in the deep (and not so) rear were the cities. Initially, the Türks were nomads, but transhumant livestock breeding can be carried out effectively only in the Eurasian steppe, but in those places where it is better to engage in agriculture, it is better to engage in agriculture. East Turkestan (now the XUAR of the PRC), the territory of present-day Uzbekistan, and the Caucasus are imprisoned by nature for agriculture, because the local people were engaged in this business, giving livestock to the nomadic brethren.
            Most of the cities considered Turkic were founded by Persian-speaking inhabitants, who later became Turkic and in which many former nomads settled.
            When the khans built capitals in the time of the Horde, for this purpose masses of people were resettled from the lands where settled Turks, Persians, Slavs, Caucasians lived. The Khazar Sarkel, the Horde Saray-Batu, Saray-Berke, Saraishyk are no exception. These were cosmopolitan cities, albeit with a Turkic accent.
        2. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 15 October 2013 18: 51 New
          +1
          Quote: Djozz
          To organize the nomads into a combat-ready army and reach Hungary, it is beyond belief and looks like a fable!

          Gyyy, well, the Hungarians have arrived))) They are now sedentary Catholics speaking the Finno-Ugric dialect, and more recently, they were the same nomads as the other Türks))) And now the Hungarians organize ritual horseback riding campaigns every year from Hungary to Kazakhstan, where they fraternize with the Kazakhs)))
          If the Magyars once reached the "New Motherland" in the form of a combat-ready army, as the Huns had entered Europe before, then what can we say about the subsequent waves of the steppe people.
  20. Oldman
    Oldman 14 October 2013 20: 46 New
    +5
    The article is frankly weak, fundamentally false. Lituvis, or zemait (indigenous people of modern Lithuania), were never a titular nation in the GDL. Lithuania (ON) is the historical state of Belarusians (in the modern sense of the word). Belarusians are litvinians and Russians. The Litvinians are Catholics (from Minsk to Vilno), the Russians are Orthodox (from Minsk to Smolensk).
    1. Gorinich
      Gorinich 15 October 2013 10: 18 New
      0
      In fact, Litvins were originally pagans, then Arians. The cross on the Pogon depicts an Arian. And only then Catholics or Orthodox.
  21. Alexandr0id
    Alexandr0id 14 October 2013 23: 16 New
    -2
    as I understand it, now in Belarus they are trying to rethink their history, ascribing to themselves the great principality of Lithuania. they say that it’s not a Lithuanian state, but a Slavic one. sort of like the Belarusians had something heroic in history. Well, what Belarusians, what are you talking about? always sat quieter than water, below the grass, whoever wanted to, joined them to himself, one of the most peaceful peoples on earth (this is not bad), absolutely harmless, what kind of battles are there with the horde and the order, why?
    1. Gorinich
      Gorinich 15 October 2013 10: 20 New
      +1
      Study the story and preferably the story of the neighbors. You will find many interesting things ...
    2. Vitmir
      Vitmir 15 October 2013 17: 54 New
      0
      Alexandroid
      Even the admittedly low level of modern Russian education cannot excuse your stupid "understanding".
      The Litvins (Lithuanians) - the ON time - these are those whom Moscow after the partition of the Commonwealth renamed into Belarusians.
      Those who did not fall under the domination of the Horde, who fought with the Muscovites (the official name of the inhabitants of Muscovy, the Moscow Principality / Kingdom before the invention of the term Russia by Peter the Great), Teutons, Tatars, etc.
      The current Lithuanians are descendants of pagan first, and then baptized zhemites and aukshtites, who were on the sidelines after the Catholic and Orthodox Litvinians who spoke and wrote in Old Belorussian in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
      1. Alexandr0id
        Alexandr0id 15 October 2013 18: 47 New
        +1
        the universally recognized high level of Belarusian education, of course, the peak is unattainable. where can we compete with you with Russian misunderstanding?
        tell the Poles about Muscovites, they will like it.
        all this great new Belarusian history of yours warms your soul, but it is only the same Lithuanians and Poles that are perplexing. the numerical predominance of protobelorus on on only adds points to the Lithuanian rulers, and the wider use of the West Russian language in office work on reminds the situation in the Mughal empire or in the Safavid Iran, where the state language was Persian with the Persians generally subordinate.
        1. Gorinich
          Gorinich 16 October 2013 11: 02 New
          0
          The argument about the Persian language is certainly good, if not for my posts that I wrote a little lower. Namely, about who was who ... The first Principality of Lithuania was then abolished (Principality of Gersitsa) and they spoke there apparently generally in Russian.
      2. xan
        xan 16 October 2013 16: 41 New
        -1
        Quote: VitMir
        Even the admittedly low level of modern Russian education cannot excuse your stupid "understanding".

        spares according to the training manual
        the level of Belarusian education the world community is not at all interested in
        1. Essenger
          Essenger 18 October 2013 18: 01 New
          +2
          Quote: xan
          the level of Belarusian education the world community is not at all interested in

          in principle, Russian too
  22. misterwulf
    misterwulf 14 October 2013 23: 47 New
    0
    According to the logic of the events of the Battle of Kulikovo and the consequences of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, it was, in fact, the Horde! :) And 100 years later, "standing on the Ugra" ... Where is that Ugra? This is the border of the ON and the Moscow principality! Freed from dependence (and it was a sin to remain under the "dual Catholic monarchy".
    I think so.
  23. Luga
    Luga 15 October 2013 01: 01 New
    +3
    Eh, I'm late today. sad
    And such an interesting topic!
    According to the article. In my opinion, preparing to write on such an ambiguous topic as the relations of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania with neighbors and, first of all, with Russia, the author should have been better prepared.
    "Perhaps this inspired Prince Dmitry of Nizhny Novgorod in 1367 to give battle to the Horde on the Pyana River and defeat them." - quote. Did I miss something? Was the battle on Pian recognized as a Russian victory? I always believed that the prince Arab Shah (Arapsha) utterly defeated the Russian army there, after which he took and plundered Nizhny Novgorod.
    The parcels regarding Orthodox baptism of Lithuanian princes (Olgerd, Yagaila, etc.) would make sense to discuss and take into account only if one of them considered himself Orthodox and at least once indicated his Orthodoxy in official documents, or at least any unambiguous actions, such as going to church in public. And if we consider that the Russian metropolitans at that time supported exclusively Russian (exclusively Moscow) princes in the struggle against the "nasty", that is, pagan Lithuania, talking about the Orthodoxy of the Lithuanian princes is not particularly necessary.
    The author also forgot to mention, in my opinion, a very important detail. Lithuanian princes were not Rurikovich, i.e. did not descend from the great Kiev princes and, accordingly, could not be considered as contenders for supreme power in Russia. And after the Lithuanian elite adopted Catholicism for the sake of the Polish crown, relations with Russia began to be built exclusively on the "who will beat" principle.
    I would not call Lithuania a shield of Russia from the Horde either. It is enough to recall the alliance of Mamaia with Jagaila or Vitovt with Tokhtamysh. Absolutely anti Russian unions. But from the Germans - yes, they stopped. Using, of course, with the forces of the captured Russian principalities.
    The author did not say anything about the battle in Vorskla, where Vitovt suffered a grave defeat from the Khan Idigu (Edigeya). If Vitovt managed to defeat Idig, it is quite possible that his next step would be a joint campaign with Tokhtamysh to Moscow.
    In the Battle of Grunwald, Vitovt and Jagaila (Vladislav), in my opinion, competed who is better to substitute another under the German ice rink. Jagailo defeated, the Germans hit Vitovt, but unfortunately Jagaila resisted and had to eliminate the consequences of the German defeat politically: having a thousand possibilities to finally finish the order, Jagailo consistently neglected everyone, wishing to leave Lithuania alone with the Germans to deal with it again.
    In short, it seems to me that the article is not very. No.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 15 October 2013 10: 36 New
      +3
      You have written everything correctly. Only a small correction: the Mamaev puppet Arapsha (Arabshah) was not a prince, but a formal khan of the Golden Horde (more precisely, its western part). It should be noted that his power was disputed by other Genghisides - Tokhtamysh, who, with the support of Temirlan, soon took power into his own hands.

      Small defeats of the Western "Horde" from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in Russian and Lithuanian science are exaggerated to large-scale and significant. The main forces of the western part of the Horde at that time were involved in the east, where gigantic battles with Tokhtamysh took place.
      In the article, Murza Begich was called "the best commander of the Horde." Where this passage was composed from is unclear. There is no information about Begich, by and large he only lit up in this battle, when there were still two other Crimean Murzas with him (one of whom is generally the Greek Dmitry). Apparently, it was a small hastily put together a detachment, which even recruited sedentary non-Turkic residents of the Crimea, whose combat capability was always close to zero.
      And despite the fact that the best forces of Mamai and his puppets were involved in the eastern direction against the Tokhtamyshev-Temirlanists, Mamai immediately reacted to the attack of the Moscow-Ryazan army, immediately making a counterattack and defeating Ryazan, after which the Ryazan prince became Mamai's forced ally. And he carried this yoke until the Battle of Kulikovo. And whoever knows this topic deeply knows that at that time Mamai no longer had combat-ready units from natural nomads, so he had to recruit Genoese mercenaries, Caucasians, Russians, Greeks, etc. into the army. Tokhtamysh specifically ruined Mamai, especially since many Mamaevites, when they met Tokhtamysh, went over to the side of the legitimate Khan of the Golden Horde without a fight, not wanting to serve the upstart Nechingizid Mamai and his "dolls".

      Edigei (right - Edyge) - was not a khan. He is the same upstart as Mamai. He was also not a genghiside. A remarkable person. First he served as one khan of the Horde, then his opponent. It was he who owed merit in the defeat of Vytautas’s troops (who trampled into the Horde to put there the already defeated Tokhtamysh khan, who, after eliminating the Mamaev’s threat, severed relations with Temirlan and soon lost to him). When the khan of the Golden Horde Temir-Kutlug (Timur-Kutlug) died, Shadibek came to power, under which all power was actually exercised by Ediguy. Soon Shadibek and Edyge quarreled, and Edyge kicked the khan out of the Horde, putting in his place the son of the defeated Shadibek.
      Edyge is an extremely intelligent man who became an outstanding personality of that era. He bent his policy among the Chingizids, pitted opponents, played on the contradictions between Chingizids, "Lithuanians" and Russians. In short, the personality is no less bright than Tamerlane or Mamai, although less well-known to Russians. However, this is not surprising. Yedyge, unlike Mamai, did not lose to the Russians (and not only to the Russians, but also to the “Lithuanians” and other steppe inhabitants), and therefore there was not much room for him in Russian history. But this is the last person in history who managed to unite the Horde. After him, no one could achieve this.
      Z.Y. Edyge also organized his own ulus, known to the Russians as the Nogai Horde, in which, after the death of Edyge, only his descendants, and not Genghisides, ruled.
    2. Gorinich
      Gorinich 15 October 2013 11: 14 New
      0
      There is some confusion in the sources:
      1. 1264-1267- Wojskelk, son of the Prussian king Mindovg (1, chap. 132) professed Orthodoxy. Mindovg, being invited by the prince to Novogrudok, captured with his help Lithuania (2, p. 541), which, according to the Tale of Bygone Years, paid tribute to the Slavs. In 1253, Mindovg proclaimed himself Grand Duke of Lithuania
      http://vorsa.jo.by/?p=239
      2. Dovgerd (Daugerut; German: Daugeruthe; lit. Daugėrutis, Daugerutis, Daugirutis; Dangerutis [1];? - 1213, Wenden) - Prince of Lithuania.
      He was first mentioned under 1209 in the Chronicle of Livonia by Henry, according to which he was "one of the most powerful Lithuanians." Father-in-law and ally of Vsevolod of Gersik. In 1213, Mr. Daugerute traveled to Veliky Novgorod, probably with the aim of concluding an alliance against the Germans in Livonia. On the way back he was captured by the Germans and died in custody [2]. According to V. L. Nosevich, Dovgerd could be the father of Mindovg, whom the Livonian elder rhyming chronicle calls könig gros - the great Lithuanian king [3].
      http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Довгерд
      3. Prince of Gersick
      before 1203 - after 1230
      Predecessor: not known
      Succeeded: Principality abolished

      Death: after 1230
      Genus: Rurikovich, Polotsk branch

      Wife: daughter of the Lithuanian prince Daugerute. The children are not reported in the sources, however, to Vsevolod, the genus von Ikskül derived his origin. In this case, the history of the genus is documented only starting from the 16th century. According to the research of M. A. Taube [7], Vsevolod had one daughter (unknown by name) who was married twice: 1 husband: Konrad von Meyendorf (d. After 1224)

      http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Всеволод_(князь_герсикский)

      Not all the same, it is clear in what kind of kinship these princes were, there is a possibility that the Mindovigi are relatives of the Rurikovich. And this was important in the Middle Ages.

      4. The only source, The Great Polish Chronicle, says the following about the origin of Mindowg: “... Chapter 132. How did the Prussian King Mendolf depart from the Christian faith. In the same year [1260] the baptized Prussians with their King Mendolf because of the many hardships inflicted on them by the crusaders, having left the Christian faith, which they had accepted earlier, went with some brothers of the Order of the Crusaders to the Lithuanians [in the original - to the Litvinians], boldly to them joining ... ".
      http://dodontitikaka.narod.ru/index/0-97
      1. Gorinich
        Gorinich 15 October 2013 12: 16 New
        0
        And a little about the origin of the Prussians:
        http://oldrus.livejournal.com/209457.html
  24. zbyshek
    zbyshek 15 October 2013 01: 40 New
    0
    ABOUT! Vladislav Shved !!!! Finally got out !! How do you live as the second secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU of the Lithuanian SSR? I see you became a great expert on the history of Liva and the VLK? How is Maaskwa native? Do not live in Biryulyovo? Can you deal with problems in Moscow or is it overwhelming for you?

    And finally - the Russians, Belarusians, Kazakhs and Tatars - come to us. We remember and love you. For one thing and in Trakai Castle you will be interested in the general history of the VLK.

    Special thanks to the Smolensk regiments in the difficult battle of Grunwald !! Vivat Zalgiris! Vivat Victoria!
  25. mr.Man
    mr.Man 15 October 2013 03: 18 New
    +2
    The history of nations is an interesting thing, but the descendants remember only what is recorded by the "official" seal.
    If Ukraine now joins the Western world, then in 200-300 years, Ukrainians may not even be considered the Slavic people ...
    At one time, the distribution area of ​​the Slavic people spread to all parts of the world from the center of Europe ...
    The fact that the Prussians were Slavs and no longer remember, the Germans and all ...
  26. Oldman
    Oldman 15 October 2013 15: 57 New
    +1
    This primitive amused me:
    Quote: Alexandr0id
    as I understand it, now in Belarus they are trying to rethink their history, ascribing to themselves the great principality of Lithuania. they say that it’s not a Lithuanian state, but a Slavic one. sort of like the Belarusians had something heroic in history. Well, what Belarusians, what are you talking about? always sat quieter than water, below the grass, whoever wanted to, joined them to himself, one of the most peaceful peoples on earth (this is not bad), absolutely harmless, what kind of battles are there with the horde and the order, why?
    This nonsense is even difficult to comment on.
    1. Vitmir
      Vitmir 15 October 2013 18: 05 New
      0
      You can comment, but only unprintable, although I tried to stay within the bounds of decency - in the interests of enlightenment only ...
  27. Oldman
    Oldman 15 October 2013 16: 01 New
    +1
    Quote: Luga
    In the Battle of Grunwald, Vitovt and Jagaila (Vladislav), in my opinion, competed who is better to substitute another under the German ice rink. Jagailo defeated, the Germans hit Vitovt, but unfortunately Jagaila resisted and had to eliminate the consequences of the German defeat politically: having a thousand possibilities to finally finish the order, Jagailo consistently neglected everyone, wishing to leave Lithuania alone with the Germans to deal with it again.

    The topic of Grunwald requires a separate discussion because too much frank lies have accumulated.
    1. About the army of Vitovt. The overwhelming number of banners are Lithuanian (read Belarusian), three Russians (Smolensk, Mstislavl and "I don’t remember"), several (about five) Zhamoyts, several - "hodgepodge", and Tatar (local, VKLovskie) light cavalry.
    In total, there were more Polish banners in the army of Jagaila, not much.
    2. The course of the battle. Nobody competed with anyone. Everything was agreed between Vytautas and Jagiel in advance - who is standing where and against whom and when. Vytautu fell Wallenrod flank. According to the plan of the battle, Vitovt, having lighter weapons, was to play an active role.
    Therefore, closer to dinner, Vytautas began the battle. The Tatars were the first to hit the left flank of Wallenrod, then the first lines of the Vitovt banners entered into battle. The Germans easily repelled these attacks and, as expected, went on the offensive. Vytautas sought this. His gonfalons organizedly turned around and began to quickly retreat, sharply going to the left, freeing the way for the Germans. Having gained great speed, the heavy cavalry of the Germans could not repeat Vytautas’s maneuver, flew out to a marshy rivulet and cut into the Wagenburg (fortified convoy) Vytautas, which he prudently installed in the right place, on the trajectory of the cavalry. The sad experience of Vorskla was used in full. Having deployed his banners, Vytautas hit Wallenrod, who was stuck at Wagenburg and lost control. The defeat was complete.
    The Poles in the meantime, we must give them their due, with great courage restrained the onslaught of the flank of Liechtenstein and Jungingen. And when Vytautas came to their aid, the fate of the battle was decided.
    3. About Russian regiments and their "fateful role" in the battle. We can immediately say that the three banners could not decide the fate of the battle. This is clear? When Vitovt began the maneuver of a "false" retreat, the right flank of the Poles was exposed, and this was very dangerous. Therefore, Vitovt ordered to leave three Russian banners on the flank of the Poles to cover them with the requirement to stand to death. And that was done - the Russians stood to the end, heroes. It should be said here that Vitovt closely monitored the situation on the right flank of the Poles and several times sent reinforcements to the Russian banners.
    4. About lies. In Polish and Russian historiography, the role of Vitovt in the battle is shown extremely negatively. Like - Wallenrod hit and Vitovt ran away in panic. Okay, I ask the question - who defeated Wallenrod? Poles? So there were (without Vitovt) two times less than the Germans. And you will convince me that the Poles were able to defeat both flanks of the Germans? Don't tell my slippers ... Ah, we forgot about three (!) Russian banners that played a "decisive" role in the battle. Funny again ...
    And then, never in history was there a case that a panicky retreating army could be stopped, regrouped, returned to battle and defeat the enemy, and this should be done within a few hours ...
    Yes, and more. It is well known that Jungingen was slaughtered by a Tatar. What is it that turns out - Vitovt with his army fled, and the Tatars continued to be cut in the ranks of the Poles? Mismatch ...
  28. unknown
    unknown 15 October 2013 20: 43 New
    -2
    Burn Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (People’s Sich) - the unification of Lithuania (White Russia) and Poland (Little Russia).
    Zhmudy appropriated the history of another people
    Like modern Poles.
    Historical Poland-territory called today Ukraine

    The Tatar-Mongol yoke-fable, which a quarter of a century ago, few took seriously.

    The territory of modern Poland in the described times was part of another state.
    Moravsky with its capital in Prague.
    The gentry is a gang of relatives traded on the high road.
    The gentry nobility has a gangster past, like our new elite from the 90s.
    In historical times, if they did not kill the captured robbers, they mutilated.
    Languages ​​were often shortened, hence in modern Polish there are many whistling and hissing sounds.
    And the gentry rose during the time of the Great European, or Jewish, for these words are synonyms, Troubles.
    Which modern historians deliberately share in the Reformation, the Russian Troubles and the 30-year war
  29. Maximus-xnumx
    Maximus-xnumx 16 October 2013 16: 10 New
    0
    This is why kindred peoples are always biting each other? Germany and Austria, Russia and Ukraine, etc. Can someone explain to me ???
    1. Vasyan1971
      Vasyan1971 21 October 2013 03: 46 New
      0
      Easy! The "housing problem" spoiled people long before Bulgakov. And quarrels and squabbles between relatives at all times were the very best. So we still share everything that we get. From land to history.
  30. Vasyan1971
    Vasyan1971 21 October 2013 03: 41 New
    0
    "Like his predecessors, Vitovt was tolerant of Christians. But, striving to protect the principality from the aggression of the German knights" against the Lithuanian pagans, "he equated Catholicism in rights with Orthodoxy. In this regard, Vitovt built a number of magnificent Catholic churches."
    It didn’t help ... As the pacification of the aggressor convincingly shows, besides the gloomy German is not bringing to good.
  31. The comment was deleted.