Nonaggression pact. National shame or legitimate victory?

423
September 1 is the anniversary of the start of the Second World War. Russia has become the undoubted and main winner in it. It was she who knew that unattainable height, to which no state of the world had ever risen, having defeated the evil of the world - fascism. This victory was so visible and daunting that it does not fit into the ideological schemes of the instigators of the Russian catastrophe.

Substitution of values

The thesis about the fault of the Soviet Union in starting the Second World War, which trumps modern Europe, is an accusation inconsistent in its absurdity. And it is embedded in the general context of destruction historical Of Russia. Today, traditional interpretations and historical assessments of the events of that period are being ignored, which essentially boil down to the following: World War II is the struggle of one totalitarianism - fascism with another - communism, as a result of which the third force - democracy triumphed. In the eyes of the world community, the winners with the help of political technologies and falsification of history are becoming invaders.

But the main thing is that the same discrediting Russian history approach to key events of the past was consolidated almost at the official level in Russia itself. Despite the fact that the tone of the statements of the first persons of the state is gradually shifting to a more objective direction, there is no need to speak about cardinal changes.

“As long as the official Russia does not recognize that the agreement with Germany concluded by Stalin in August with Germany did not go beyond the generally accepted international political norms, it will always be the object of claims and humiliation”
On the eve of his visit to Poland, scheduled for 1 in September 2009 of the year and timed to coincide with the 70 anniversary of the outbreak of the Second World War, at that time Prime Minister Vladimir Putin published an article in the Polish press Gazeta Wyborcza, which was often quoted by Russian MASS MEDIA. We give excerpts from it: “... Without any doubt, we can rightly condemn the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, concluded in August 1939 of the year. But after all, the year before, France and England signed a famous treaty with Hitler in Munich, destroying all hopes of creating a united front of struggle against fascism. ” And further: "Today we understand that any form of collusion with the Nazi regime was unacceptable from a moral point of view and had no prospects from the point of view of practical implementation." All other reservations addressed to the European powers about their incorrect behavior are drowning amid these unequivocal statements. It all comes down to the fact that we, they say, and you were disgraced equally. In that case, what can be expected from the geopolitical enemies of Russia with such reasoning by so high representatives of its political elite? Naturally, therefore, the aggregate West (the EU and the USA) puts forward its theses, unconditionally ignoring the facts and putting up a story under the accusation thrown by the world community against Russia - the occupiers.

Thus, the Great Victory and the feat of the veterans who lived to this deceitful time are being devalued. This was unthinkable in relation to the USSR. And this is its significant difference from the new Russia. In recent years, the Russian Federation has been acting as a whipping boy in European international organizations, for the membership in which she pays a lot of money. Within the framework of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE), concerned about nostalgia for socialism in the countries of Central and Southeastern Europe, it was difficult at the end of 2006, but it was possible to adopt a resolution condemning “totalitarian communist regimes”. The Russian delegation unanimously opposed the adoption of such a resolution. The exception was Vladimir Zhirinovsky. A new provocation on the same topic took place in Vilnius in July 2009. The Parliamentary Assembly of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) adopted a document with a long and unintelligible title “The reunification of a divided Europe: the promotion of human rights and civil liberties in the OSCE region in the 21st century”. It argues that in the twentieth century, European countries suffered from two totalitarian regimes - the Nazi and Stalinist regimes.

Nonaggression pact. National shame or legitimate victory?

At the end of March 2007, under pressure from United Russia and the Liberal Democratic Party that joined it, the State Duma adopted the blasphemous law “On the Banner of Victory”, according to which the heroic banner should be replaced by a certain non-historical symbol - a white (tribute to America?) Five-pointed star on a red background. Veterans-front-line soldiers rose in defense of the victorious banner and did not allow them to defile the shrine. The immoral law was abolished by presidential veto. How long? Given this attitude of the majority of the deputies of state power in Russia to national shrines, is it any wonder that the governments of tiny countries in the anti-Russian fanabia encroach on the monuments to the liberators?

The European laments about the historical guilt of the Soviet Union over the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact leave out the key events of the pre-war history - the Munich Agreement, which became the defining stage of German aggression. Who in the West called for repentance "for Munich" and the division of Czechoslovakia?

Here is the opinion of Professor Lennoir Olsztynsky, a well-known specialist in military history: “An example of primitive falsification of history is the often repeated thesis that the Non-Aggression Pact of Germany and the USSR 1939 of the year caused the outbreak of the Second World War ... The signing of the treaty breaks out of the general chain ... of cause and effect relationships, mixed and multi-scale events. At the same time, the strategic plans of the parties that reveal the true intentions of politicians are completely ignored ... "And further:" The non-aggression pact of 1939 of the year is historically justified. It meant the collapse of the most dangerous variant for the development of the Second World War for the USSR - the “sewage” of the aggression of the fascist bloc against the USSR with its international isolation ... ”

With the connivance of the national elite (and the European Union) in the post-Soviet Baltic, the SS legionnaires are known to be elevated to the rank of national heroes, and the crimes of collaborators and “forest brothers” against the civilian population are modestly hushed up or are defined by modern experts as “forced actions”. Nevertheless, undoubtedly, the majority of the population of the Baltic countries fought worthily against fascism. The monument to the Liberator Soldier, which has become famous, is a monument to the Estonian soldier. And there are descendants of these soldiers who keep a grateful memory.

In the framework of international law

The events of the prewar history are described and well known, but since they are now turned upside down, it seems that we should briefly touch upon the key points of the outbreak of the war, which are subjected to a biased revision. We note here that the leadership of the USSR was aware of the aspirations of the Western powers to push Germany into war with the Soviet Union, as well as Hitler’s desire to expand the German “living space” at the expense of eastern lands. Under these conditions, it was necessary to think about security. The invasion of the Wehrmacht into Poland (September 1 1939) created an extremely dangerous situation for the USSR - if Germany seized Western Belorussia, its strategic lines were approaching the vital centers of the USSR. In addition, under the threat of German conquest, fraternal peoples found themselves in the territories torn away by the White Poles.

The actions of the USSR in that situation were dictated by the situation that arose in connection with the aggression of Germany against Poland and were justified not only from the military-political point of view, but also from the standpoint of international law. Suffice to say that by the time the USSR began the military operation, there was practically no state power system in Poland, the government fled to Romania from besieged Warsaw, and the population of the territories not yet occupied by German forces and the remnants of the Polish armed forces were left to the mercy of fate.

In an environment where German troops were rapidly moving eastward without encountering any effective resistance from the Poles, the Red Army on September 17 crossed the border and protected the population of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus with its broad support. Recall that in relation to ethnic Ukrainians and Belarusians, the Polish government of Pilsudski pursued a tough policy of colonization. As a result of the “liberation campaign” of the Red Army, as it was called in Soviet historiography, the reunification of artificially divided peoples took place.

By the way, neither Britain nor France declared war on the USSR, despite allied obligations to Poland. They even refrained from negative assessments, thereby giving additional legitimacy to the actions of the Soviet Union. Not being an aggressor, the Soviet Union did not claim the Polish lands proper. The ethnic border of Poland, the so-called Curzon Line, was not crossed by the Soviet troops, although nothing prevented them from doing so. Thus, the USSR acted within the framework necessary. And this was well understood by contemporaries who knew the situation.

Winston Churchill, who at that time held the post of first Lord of the Admiralty, was not burdened with sympathy for the USSR, in his speech on the radio 1 of October, 1939 of the year was forced to recognize the Soviet Union this right: “The fact that Russian armies were to be on this line, it was absolutely necessary for the security of Russia against the German threat ... When Mr. von Ribbentrop was summoned to Moscow last week, this was done in order for him to familiarize himself with this fact and admit that the Nazi designs for the Baltic states STV and Ukraine must be stopped. " Thus, at the beginning of the war, the USSR barred the way to the Third Reich, depriving the German command of the ability to use the territory of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus as a springboard for an attack on the USSR.

The accession of the Baltic states to Soviet Russia is a complex, multi-pass combination. Recall that these countries represented themselves at the beginning of the Second World War. Tough nationalist regimes were established here, especially in Lithuania and somewhat later in Latvia, where coups took place. Representatives of the opposition movements, first of all the Communists, found themselves in a deep underground or in prison; trade unions and other workers' organizations were banned. Active dissatisfaction with low prices for products and high taxes was expressed by peasants. Estonia gradually drifted into politics in the direction of “tightening the screws”: by the beginning of 1938, a constitution was adopted here that sharply strengthens presidential power. News about the success of industrialization and undeniable social achievements in the USSR contributed to the spread of leftist and pro-Soviet sentiments in these countries.

The leadership of the USSR was aware of the desire of the Western powers to push Germany into war with the Soviet Union, as well as of Hitler’s desire to expand the German “living space” at the expense of the eastern lands. Under these conditions, it was necessary to think about security. The entry of Soviet troops into the Baltic States was strategically motivated and had a defensive character. It is known that the entry of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia into the USSR took place on legal grounds. The presence in the Baltic countries of the Red Army was stipulated in the framework of treaties on mutual assistance with all these republics. There were no real speeches against the introduction of troops. In addition, a distinctive feature of the occupation regime is inequality before the law of the occupiers and the occupied. In this case, the law was the same for all. A well-considered and balanced Soviet policy made it possible for the social forces of the Baltic states to prepare: the broad strata of the population considered joining the Soviet Union as an opportunity to avoid the fascist occupation. Political prisoners were released. Previously known newsreel footage of the meetings of the Red Army in the Baltic States are joyful faces, with flowers - today, at best, they seem to be gathering dust in the archives.

In July, the 40 of the Seimas of Lithuania and Latvia and the Estonian State Duma signed declarations on the entry of these countries into the USSR.

So, as a result, the non-aggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union contributed to the fact that the Baltic states did not become a protectorate of the Third Reich and a springboard for an offensive against the USSR.

The Soviet Union regained the territories lost during the Civil War, strengthened the borders, established control over the strategically important region and won the time to prepare for war. In turn, the accession of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia to the Soviet Union allowed the local population to remain as nations.

There is a simple question: what would happen to the Baltics if it were not part of the Soviet Union? The answer is obvious - the seizure of Germany. According to the Ost plan, almost all of this territory was supposed to be liberated from the local population and settled by the Germans. The remaining population was to undergo germanization. A few words about Moldova, which never had its own statehood and during the civil war was rejected by Romania. In 1940, the king of Romania, Carol II, accepted the ultimatum of the Soviet side and conveyed Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina to the USSR. And the population greeted the Red Army with bread and salt.

The territories returned to Russia received a powerful impetus to development. The Soviet Union invested a lot of money in them. All this is well known, but carefully concealed by falsifiers of history.

From the perspective of national interests

All claims to the Russian Federation, the West seeks to coincide with the holy Russian dates. Thus, in the jubilee year of celebrating the 60 anniversary of the victory of the USSR in World War II, both houses of the US Congress passed a resolution demanding that the Russian government recognize and condemn the “illegal occupation and annexation” of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia by the Soviet Union. The head of the Russian Federation was forced to declare that the question of apologies to Russia was already closed in 1989 by a resolution of the Congress of People’s Deputies condemning the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. At this historical moment should dwell.

The decision of the II Congress of People's Deputies of the USSR on this issue is in fact the contribution of the new Russia to the matter of revising the outcome of the Second World War to the detriment of its national interests and the interests of compatriots who did not voluntarily find themselves abroad in Russia. A special commission on the political and legal assessment of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, headed by Alexander Yakovlev, was established at the First Congress under the leadership of Alexander Yakovlev, whose activities are described by researchers as biased. Based on the report of the commission, a special resolution of the II Congress of People's Deputies of the USSR of 24 December 1989, all secret Soviet-German agreements were found to be legally untenable and invalid from the date of their signing.

By their decision, the majority of the deputies tried to cancel the already held history. It should be noted that not historians in the mode of scientific discussion, but people's deputies, by simple vote, assessed the events of the pre-war history. The Russian Federation supported the claims of the Baltic countries, not caring about the historical consequences of such a step. The main thing for the new Russia at that moment was to dissociate itself from its "totalitarian past."

Even before the adoption of this document by the congress, in July 1989, the newspaper Sovetskaya Russia warned: “Recognizing the 1939 agreement as illegal makes it possible to cast doubt on the legality of staying on the lands of the Baltic States and other western territories of millions of Soviet citizens who migrated there after 1939.” So it happened. The overwhelming majority of the non-indigenous population in the "civilized" Baltic countries turned into powerless "stateless persons", "second-class citizens", and "occupiers".

A biased official evaluation of the secret protocol to the 1939 treaty of the year requires a review from the perspective of national interests. In addition, one should move away from the stereotypes given by the wrong time. Currently, there is a serious documentary and historiographic base on the problem under consideration. Biased assessments of the period when the collapse of a powerful power was being prepared were naturally tendentious and today they are working against Russian statehood. In 2008, scientists of the country took the initiative of revising the decision of the II Congress of People's Deputies of the USSR. Such a proposal was voiced by Oleg Rzheshevsky, head of the Department of Historians of the Second World War, Head of the Department of the History of Wars and Geopolitics of the Institute of General History of the Russian Academy of Sciences. A similar initiative from the leaders of the relevant committees of the State Duma of the Russian Federation did not receive support.

Since the time of perestroika, there has been a process of devaluation of victory in the Russian Federation itself. In post-Soviet Russia, which has lost its statist instinct, the so-called historical journalism, discrediting the Soviet past, is constantly republished. The echoes of Viktor Rezun’s books (signing his libels in the glorious Russian name Suvorov), where he questions the history of the Second World War, breaks the methodology in the approaches to its study, firmly entered the public consciousness of Russian citizens. The author of these books is an unprofessional intelligence officer who has become a professional traitor who has stepped over his homeland and military oath. According to professionals, "... the pinnacle of Rezun's research genius is a repetition of the propaganda of Nazi criminals who tried to justify the perfidious attack on the USSR."

For a number of years in the Russian Federation, the process of liquidation of military academies has been going on - the glory and pride of the country. Sometimes it was done under the guise of reorganization. The price of this word is well known. The traditions that still exist at the famous General Staff Academy break down the traditions that are decisive for the Armed Forces. It is symptomatic that the most important department of the history of wars and military art is closed here. It is not surprising that in a state that purposefully destroys, despite public protests, expert and professional opinions, a system of not only civil, but also military education, there is a considerable part of young people who perceive the myths about the invaders as a given. It should be noted, however, that with the advent of the new leadership, some hope for the best remains in the place of the infamous gentleman.

Today, there is an urgent task of restoring Russia's authority in the world and strengthening Russian statehood. With a powerful liberal lobby in the country's political establishment, this is not easy, but necessary. Public requests should be formulated below. And one of the most important tasks is to reject the demonization of the Soviet era. In this sense, first of all, one should not use a term such as “totalitarianism” in relation to our past. There was no total state control over the life of society in the Soviet Union. This is a propaganda, ideological term, which entered the scientific revolution in the West. It is used in Western sociology and political science, developed by opponents of the USSR in the Cold War. And besides the Soviet dissidents, he was not used in the Soviet Union. This term came into our life at the end of 80, when the destruction of the country was being prepared. There is a lot of speculation and absurdity. And the main thing is that only within the framework of this integral term, “communism” and “fascism” can be equated. In this case, why grind this term into the consciousness of the younger generations? It is necessary to build a rehabilitation system for slandered pages of the history of the Soviet period, which means that it is necessary to agree on terms.

USSR foreign policy in 1939 – 1940 is not only a page in national history. These are modern realities. There is a gospel: "Yes - yes, no - no, the rest is from the evil one." Need a clear and clear position. Russian society, especially its young part, should know: consider the non-aggression treaty between Germany and the USSR as a national shame or as a legitimate victory of the country's leadership and Soviet diplomacy under conditions of connivance of the aggressor from the Western powers. As long as the official Russia does not recognize that the treaty with Germany concluded by Stalin in August with Germany did not go beyond the generally accepted international political norms, it will always be the object of complaints and humiliation. And if we do not publicly reject the equality sign between communism and fascism, moreover, we almost do not recognize the occupation of the Baltic states, then in this case, to be consistent, we really have to take its content. Criminal regimes, if we recognize our past as such, should bear their share of responsibility. Until we ourselves rehabilitate the Soviet period, all these disastrous consequences for Russia will finally finish our statehood. The prestige of the new Russia in the world is largely determined by whether it will be able to defend its past and not exchange the Great Victory for short-term market interests.
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  1. poccinin
    +37
    5 October 2013 08: 09
    Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. was a logical victory of Soviet diplomacy. everyone understood that war was inevitable. And it was necessary to take time to rearm the army and navy.
    1. -49
      5 October 2013 09: 26
      And what is the victory of diplomacy? The fact that the USSR entered the war without a single ally? Prevention of war would be a victory, a good result would be a quick defeat of Germany, delaying a war can only be called a success with big reservations.
      By itself, gaining time would make sense if the Soviet military-industrial complex developed faster than the German one (one could catch up), but in reality it was the other way around - Germany for 1939-41 completely updated the range of main types of weapons, while in the USSR rearmament was only it began.
      The Red Army was also unable to take advantage of it - as a result of contradictory reforms, growth diseases and personnel starvation, its combat effectiveness even decreased by 1941. The regrouping of troops from traditional places of deployment to the freshly joined western regions of Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states added problems - everyone was busy settling out, living conditions sharply worsened (even former Polish prisons adapted to barracks, but many lived in the field), and finally the prepared line of fortifications was abandoned, they didn’t have time to build a new one.
      These are only the simplest, immediate consequences of the PMR, not to mention the decline in the international image, spoiled relations with probable allies, and so on.
      1. Ulan
        +29
        5 October 2013 10: 27
        Greatly laid out everything on the shelves. Indeed, there are some disadvantages, it was necessary to surrender to Hitler in the 39th, you look even then they drank Bavarian beer. Here are our fathers and grandfathers, how "stupid" they were, they took them but did not kneel down.
        1. cooper
          -30
          5 October 2013 10: 59
          At 39 Hitler would have been erased to powder.
          1. -27
            5 October 2013 11: 29
            Maybe not in powder, but they would have handled much faster.
            And if you had turned a little differently, then Hitler would have been able to avoid war, having lost popularity under the weight of economic problems, would have remained in history as a flashy misunderstanding like Misha Saakashvili.
            1. +41
              5 October 2013 12: 21
              Drummer
              When the 6 battalions of Hitler entered the demilitarized zone, they were opposed by several French divisions. Wouldn’t Hitler move his finger? When the Germans entered Austria, the German General Staff planned to arrest Aloizievich at the slightest movement of parts of France. which could suffocate Germany with a wave of a finger. But if we climbed, their main goal, which they did not hide, we would all be attacked in droves. and Hitler would be let in first - the Germans were not sorry for them.
              Let me remind you a quote.
              Neville Henderson. British Ambassador to Germany. 37 year
              "To put it bluntly, Eastern Europe ... is of no vital interest to England. It could even be argued that it is unfair to prevent Germany from completing its unity and preparing for war against the Slavs, provided that these preparations do not harm the British Empire, that they are not simultaneously directed against us."
              Not for nothing that some members of the royal family were ardent Nazis. It is necessary to recall the story of the failed king due to the morganatic marriage of the King of England, the former ardent Nazi?
              So. that your good tales have nothing for themselves for one simple reason - the Anglo-Saxons were no less cannibals and they simply nurtured Hitler for their own purposes. And that goal was we.
              1. +8
                5 October 2013 15: 26
                I read that German soldiers arrived at great places there ... And the brave French army, seeing the German caps, did nothing ...
                1. VARCHUN
                  0
                  19 October 2013 14: 09
                  The French fought, but not as fiercely as the Slavic peoples, France had excellent tanks at that time, the Germans couldn’t get them. But then a corrupt general appeared and they just stayed at the train stations and hangars. And do not forget the blitz krieg.
              2. predator.3
                +1
                6 October 2013 12: 06
                В 39-40th years, all issues in the east were resolved, drew the border - this is yours, this is ours. And instead of forcing the English Channel, Hitler is heading for Vostoktem, thereby bringing his death closer.
                1. VARCHUN
                  0
                  19 October 2013 14: 15
                  Yes, the senile Adolf was very foolish that he opened a second front, but the Allies cowardly waited, I mean when there was an opportunity to attack France and England immediately after Czechoslovakia, Hitler simply laid the net on Europe and captured it.
              3. peter_shchurov
                -9
                6 October 2013 21: 09
                Quote: smile
                The Anglo-Saxons were no less cannibals and they simply nurtured Hitler for their own purposes. And that goal was we.


                ah-ah-ah, bloodthirsty creatures .. could you name a couple of reasons why Great Britain should have at least some positive attitude towards the USSR?
                1. Ulan
                  +5
                  7 October 2013 09: 21
                  I will name the reason why I was negative.
                  Russia has always been an obstacle to all aspirants for world domination.
                  If I am not mistaken, Lord Palmerston said about Russia, we cannot put up with the existence of such a large state in the North of Europe.
                  Is it enough?
            2. +8
              5 October 2013 22: 50
              Quote: Drummer
              Maybe not in powder, but they would have handled much faster.

              This is what a magical way ??? (the question is asked purely with a Jewish and Odessa accent at the same time)
              And yet, could the Red Army do this in 1939, which it could not do in 1941? By the way, wasn’t it a little darling whether Polska declared in 1938 that she would not tolerate a single Soviet soldier on her territory, and refused to let the Soviet troops through her territory to act against Germany, if they wanted to fulfill their allied duty under an agreement with Czechoslovakia note the trilateral - there is still France a little bit noted).
              Quote: Drummer
              And if you turn a little differently, then you could have avoided war

              AS??? How did you turn to avoid war? You still tell me about it - I'm absolutely curious.
            3. +5
              6 October 2013 07: 50
              Quote: Drummer
              And if you had turned a little differently, then Hitler would have been able to avoid war, having lost popularity under the weight of economic problems, would have remained in history as a flashy misunderstanding like Misha Saakashvili.

              Don't you remember what Hitler did right after the burning of the Reichstag (building)? I can recall: the Reichstag (legislative body) dissolved, all opposition deputies (in particular, the communists headed by Thälmann) were jailed, the elections were canceled until further notice, and assumed dictatorial powers. What news was greeted by the "popular masses" with enthusiastic cries of "Heil Hitler!", And those who showed insufficient enthusiasm were taken into account in the Gestapo, with all that it implies. So how could Hitler "lose popularity" after that?
              So learn the materiel. Well, the story too.
              1. 0
                11 October 2013 05: 54
                Quote: Nagan
                Well, how could Hitler "lose popularity" after that?

                Trite, from a lack of grub in stores.
          2. +17
            5 October 2013 12: 07
            cooper
            Who would be a stur? England and France? These are yes. If they wanted, they would be erased. But they didn’t want to — they had other plans for Hitler — to set him on us. And we simply could not erase it, in the event of our attack on Hitler. The British and French would have united with him and is unknown. how would it all end. With the Cabinet that was in Britain then it was almost inevitable, they treated us an order of magnitude worse. than to his own fosterling, who was thought to be held in his hands.
            1. -29
              5 October 2013 12: 17
              These are your fantasies, in reality England and France declared war on Germany two days after the invasion of Poland.
              1. +14
                5 October 2013 12: 43
                Drummer
                In September 39, Hitler had only a few incomplete reserve, training and second line divisions, not a single tank in the absence of defensive structures on Hitler’s western borders, but they were opposed by pre-mobilized tanks that reached the original, numerically many times and even more times in the main battle tanks French people. It was enough for them to capture, or rather occupy the Ruhr that was not covered by anything - I’m all. krants to Hitler. Canaris plotted, when the Allies entered the war, the arrest of Hitler and the Arctic fox to Nazism .... but they just had to enter the war. Are these my fantasies? No. is it a harsh reality?
                And do not make them French and English brainless moron degenerates. They were never like that, which is why they gave Hitler to strengthen Czechoslovakia, the leading exporter of European arms and military equipment. That is why they, declaring war, did not even think of starting it.
                Compared to their armed forces, which at that time were considered the most modern and powerful, we, with the industry that had just appeared, were lower-class players. And this is also reality
                Do not soar in the clouds, please, and do not live perestroika mythology - that’s unreasonable. Or are you trying out of Russophobia?
                1. -6
                  5 October 2013 14: 25
                  Quote: smile
                  In September 39, Hitler had only a few incomplete reserve, training, and second line divisions left on Hitler’s western borders, not a single tank in the absence of defensive structures, but they were opposed by pre-mobilized tanks that reached the original, numerically many times more and many times more in the PIT French people

                  So many times?
                  By September 1, Army Group C (5,1,7 armies) was deployed on the western border of the Reich - a total of 31 divisions (i.e. 30% of the forces available on September 1 - 104 divisions), specifically the Franco-German sector was covered by 1 and 7 armies - 21 divisions.
                  From the French side, by September 3, in Alsace, on the border with Germany, the Second Army Group was deployed (3,4,5 armies - a total of 27 divisions and 1 brigade). Of course, these were not all French forces: the Belgian border was covered by the First Army Group (1,7,2 and the Ardennes armies - 23 divisions and 1 brigade), the Italian - the Third (6 and the Alpine armies - 12 divisions and 2 brigades), another 27 divisions were in the African colonies, but for an offensive against Germany they still had to be concentrated, and the Germans did not sit idly by and by September 10 strengthened Group "C" to 44 divisions.
                  Quote: smile
                  And do not make them French and English brainless moron degenerates. They were never like that, which is why they handed over to Hitler to strengthen Czechoslovakia, Europe’s leading exporter of arms and military equipment. That’s why they declared a war and didn’t think about starting it.

                  Again conspiracy theory.
                  Why declare war in which you are not going to participate? A tricky move to direct aggression against the USSR? You yourself are not funny?
                  The interests of England and France (as, indeed, the USSR) did not coincide in much - everyone pulled a blanket over himself. It is not surprising that playing on weaknesses and contradictions, Adik managed to achieve serious success. However, after Hitler occupying the Czech Republic in March 1939 publicly humiliated Chamberlain and Daladier, the position of the government of England and France was determined quite clearly - the policy of appeasement was forgotten.
                  1. +3
                    5 October 2013 15: 00
                    Quote: Drummer
                    However, after Hitler occupied the Czech Republic in March, 1939 publicly humiliated Chamberlain and Daladier, the position of the government of England and France was determined quite clearly - politics appeasement was forgotten

                    In November 1939, Mr. Chamberlain wrote to his sister:
                    “I have a hunch that the war will end in the spring ... It will not end with the defeat of the enemy on the battlefields, but the Germans will simply understand that they are not able to win and that it makes no sense to continue such a war, from which they become weaker and poorer.”
                    Unfortunately, his assessment of the situation in Europe did not change in the spring of 1940, when Germany’s preparations for the campaign against the Anglo-French coalition were nearing completion. On April 5, 4 days before the Wehrmacht invasion of Denmark and Norway, Chamberlain chuckled:
                    "Hitler was late for his bus."
                    The absurd reassessment of one’s forces with inaction on the front was based on the belief, or rather, the fallacy, that time itself works for the allies, and Germany should not be provoked to aggressive actions. No important measures were taken to increase the provision and combat readiness of the troops.

                    http://www.e-reading.biz/chapter.php/42942/9/Orlov_-_Za_kulisami_vtorogo_fronta.
                    html # note_5
                  2. +10
                    5 October 2013 15: 23
                    Drummer
                    No need to get out the number of divisions. Read even the same Halder. These were understaffed divisions of the second stage, consisting of older soldiers, and only formed from untrained youngsters, weakly and out of staff, equipped with officers, artillery, without a single tank. Combatability-landver.
                    That’s why it’s done many times - I don’t remember the numbers and I won’t get to search again, at least kill me — all of this has been repeatedly discussed on the same site — I am fed up with the resistanceists. The overall superiority of the French concentrated on the border and within walking distance to the theater was overwhelming.
                    I repeat, just the capture of the Ruhr or the destruction of enterprises from the air would instantly paralyze the Wehrmacht. He would have nothing to fight. ALL tanks after the Polish campaign went to capital, I hope you know why.

                    Using the numbers of divisions can lead far - like in the fall of 41, some full-blooded German division crushed our three to smithereens. Like you, in such cases, they yell, they say that the Russians did not know how to fight, but the normal ones begin to understand ... it turns out that our divisions have 900-1500 bayonets with almost no artillery and means of amplification ... that’s the whole mystery. Judging by that. that you are smart, you are distorting intentionally, and this is even worse than stupidity ...
                    About the strange war.
                    I'm not laughing. Not even funny to Western historians. trying not to slide into a battle about the mental development of the leadership of their countries (and they can’t be called demented) and try to explain why the Wehrmacht in the fall. who didn’t even have ammunition, was not like trampled. And they declared war because, firstly, they cornered themselves in the corner, and secondly. to put pressure on Hitler. who bucked and began to get out of control. This is the only reasonable explanation. why are they declaring war. never started hostilities. Moreover, the troops were literally forbidden to open fire on visible targets. French people. invading the Reich 1 km. even took the troops back ... perhaps. that they didn’t apologize ...
                    That is why. the question to you is why, not opening hostilities and in every possible way "protecting" from that. to start them, they still declared war? precisely because. that the "Politics of Appeasement" was supposedly forgotten? France and England were the guarantors of the inviolability of the stub of the Czech Republic, why do you think they did not declare war on Aloisievich then? Or don't you think. you just repeat. what is written in Rezunov's books and the most honest writings of British Historians and politicians in the world? :))) At the same time, think about why the Anglo-French bombing should have been carried out in July 40 of the year - it was not me who came up with it, it was De Gaulle who blurted out in his memoirs ... :)))
                    Yes. you're right. I am laughing. Seeing how you are citing sources that, with a blue eye, call, following Chamberlain's pathetic excuses, the cultivation of the fascist beast "appeasement." Understand you. then Hitler was not a monster for them. he was his own, European, and not savage red Russia. And they didn't even care about the Jews, whom they did not even provide political asylum ...
                    1. +9
                      5 October 2013 15: 49
                      It makes no sense to constantly lay out causal relationships, all this has long been described by serious people ... The formula fascism = communism is simply applied in line with Western propaganda, which seeks to undermine national states ... So if we look from the point of propaganda, then this is formally normal thesis ... The ultimate goal is to erase national borders and replace states with supranational entities, from here comes the delegitimization of everything related to national identity and statehood ... All for the sake of globalization of the Western type ...
                      1. Misantrop
                        +3
                        5 October 2013 15: 53
                        Quote: Altona
                        replace states supranational entities
                        What an elegant neutral wording for private offices, preoccupied exclusively with their own superprofits and the destruction of competitors ... lol Maybe this "political correctness" is enough, isn't it time to call ghouls ghouls?
                      2. +4
                        5 October 2013 16: 13
                        It’s not a matter of political correctness, and not the ability to cut a home-telling truth ... I simply formulate this phenomenon as a propaganda thesis that has nothing to do with real history ...
                    2. -9
                      5 October 2013 17: 31
                      Quote: smile
                      No need to get out the number of divisions. Read even the same Halder. These were understaffed divisions of the second stage, consisting of older soldiers, and only formed from untrained youngsters, weakly and out of staff, equipped with officers, artillery, without a single tank. Combatability-landver.

                      Of the 44 divisions of group "C" on September 10 - 12 personnel (first wave), 10 second wave, 12 - third (landwehr), 9 - fourth (formed on the basis of training units). They really did not have tanks, but they relied on a prepared line of defense, and from the air they were covered by 2 and 3 air fleets (half of the German Air Force).
                      If it seems to you that this is not enough for the defense of a fortified line — look at the balance of forces on the Karelian Isthmus in December of the same 1939, the course of the offensive and the results achieved.
                      Quote: smile
                      I'm not laughing. Not even funny to Western historians. trying not to slide into a battle about the mental development of the leadership of their countries (and they can’t be called demented) and try to explain why the Wehrmacht in the fall. who didn’t even have ammunition, was not like trampled. And they declared war because, firstly, they cornered themselves in the corner, and secondly. to put pressure on Hitler. who bucked and began to get out of control. This is the only reasonable explanation. why are they declaring war. never started hostilities. Moreover, the troops were literally forbidden to open fire on visible targets. French people. invading the Reich 1 km. even took the troops back ... perhaps. that they didn’t apologize ...

                      Firstly, one must understand that England and France of the 1939 model were militarily little. England at the beginning of the war already had six divisions, four of which were sent to continent in September-October.
                      The French had their own problems. The militia nature of the French army did not contribute to either high-quality training of troops or their quick mobilization - as a result, of the 91 divisions available as of September 3, more than half were under formation and were considered low-combat (and not in vain).
                      Secondly, the military leadership of England and France was convinced that time worked for them. In terms of industrial and mobilization potential, AiF surpassed Germany, in 1940 the results of the general military service introduced in England should have affected, the overwhelming superiority of the Entente at sea threatened Germany with an economic blockade.
                      Thirdly, the Entente strategists considered the north-east a priority and the main forces were deployed not on the Franco-German border, but on the border with Belgium (did you hear about the Dil-Bred maneuver?).
                      Quote: smile
                      That is why. the question to you is why, not opening hostilities and in every possible way "protecting" from that. to start them, they still declared war? precisely because. that the "Politics of Appeasement" was supposedly forgotten? France and England were the guarantors of the inviolability of the stub of the Czech Republic, why do you think they did not declare war on Aloizievich then?

                      Because the pro-German Gakh himself asked for the entry of German troops into the Czech Republic. Of course, he did this under pressure from Hitler, but the formalities were followed.
                      1. kripto
                        +4
                        5 October 2013 19: 39
                        The ability to quickly find pseudo-scientific articles on the network and bring excerpts from them to the place, and not to the place you showed. Where are your own thoughts? It’s time to already learn to think.
                      2. -2
                        5 October 2013 19: 52
                        You will be surprised, but I think exactly what I am writing.
                      3. +7
                        5 October 2013 19: 40
                        Drummer
                        I don’t know why, but the level of your nonsense is off scale.
                        The army of France, even without taking into account the English, Belgian, Dutch and others, was in every way stronger than the army of Germany, however, France suffered a terrifying defeat in two weeks — the SPIRIT of the nation was lower than ZERO, so they could not organize any sensible resistance.
                        The only example of the more or less successful actions of the French troops, the actions of the particles under the command of De Gaulle, was that they did not decide anything, since the nation itself refused the right to itself to resist the invasion.
                        You Udurnik see you at school taught poorly, since you so many comments nuklyaly and all smack of FALSE.
                      4. -9
                        5 October 2013 19: 55
                        Will there be numbers, links, quotes, or did you just drop by the TRUTH?
                      5. +1
                        5 October 2013 22: 28
                        Quote: Drummer
                        Figures, links, quotes will be

                        Google is everything.
                      6. Misantrop
                        +3
                        5 October 2013 22: 32
                        Quote: anip
                        Google is everything.
                        If there is no banned for trollism laughing
                    3. +4
                      5 October 2013 19: 36
                      smile(
                      Bravo!
                      Despite the fact that sometimes I disagree with your thoughts, in this case you rolled this "Drummer" in the amount of LIES under the asphalt.
                      The inexorable logic of History dictated the Union’s policy as it happened in real history, and not in virtual attempts by liars to pervert it in favor of the current company to discredit Victory in general and the role of the Union (Russia) in that war.
              2. -24
                5 October 2013 12: 46
                Minusters advise reading a book on the history of WWII.
                1. +12
                  5 October 2013 12: 56
                  Quote: Drummer
                  Minusters advise reading a book on the history of WWII.

                  I advise you to do the same.
                  well, at least N. Starikov-who made Hitler attack the USSR.
                  or A. Isaev - 10 myths of the 2nd world.

                  and you got the cons quite deservedly.
                  1. -10
                    5 October 2013 14: 29
                    Do not agree - argue reasonably.
                    1. +16
                      5 October 2013 15: 01
                      Quote: Drummer
                      Do not agree - argue reasonably.


                      what do you tell me "reasonably"?
                      that England and France in every way delayed the creation of the anti-Hitler alliance in 38?
                      or the fact that Poland (which you advised to take as allies) opposed this even more, and hoped to enter the war with the USSR on the side of Germany?
                      maybe you don’t know about the intentions of England and France to launch the bombing of the USSR in 39 / 40g, (and subsequently in 42g) what prevented only the REAL start of the war in Europe in May 40g?
                      or are you unfamiliar with the term "strange war"

                      what other arguments are boring to you?
                      1. Shogun23
                        +2
                        5 October 2013 15: 30
                        Quote: Rider
                        that England and France in every way delayed the creation of the anti-Hitler alliance in 38?

                        Moreover, this union was also spoken about in the summer of 1939.

                        Quote: Rider
                        maybe you don’t know about the intentions of England and France to launch the bombing of the USSR in 39 / 40g, (and subsequently in 42g) what prevented only the REAL start of the war in Europe in May 40g?

                        As far as I remember, they planned their operations only in the case of the USSR-Germany alliance, although I don’t know for sure.
                      2. +9
                        5 October 2013 15: 44
                        Quote: Shogun23
                        Moreover, this union was also spoken about in the summer of 1939.

                        the most interesting thing is that in every possible way tightening the negotiations with us, the British SIMULTANEOUSLY conducted secret negotiations with Germany
                        google London talks (1939)
                        True, they justify them with ECONOMIC reasons, but the fact is that there is no concrete information on these negotiations anywhere, that raises the question of what kind of secret it is. ECONOMIC CONVERSATION.

                        Quote: Shogun23
                        As far as I remember, they planned their operations only in the case of the USSR-Germany alliance

                        these plans began with the Sovetsko / Finnish War, where they clearly took a non-pro-Soviet position.

                        hence the conclusion.
                        THERE WAS NOT THEN THE USSR ALLIES.
                        and therefore the Soviet / German peace treaty of 39g, is not only justified, but, in those conditions, is simply necessary.
                      3. Shogun23
                        0
                        5 October 2013 16: 13
                        Quote: Rider
                        google the London talks (1939)

                        Yes, I know about all this, as well as about the fact that France and Britain were considering the option of concluding a truce with Germany, after the fall of Poland
                        Quote: Rider
                        these plans began with the Sovetsko / Finnish War, where they clearly took a non-pro-Soviet position.

                        And I also know this, I’m talking about them, (for example, the bombing of Baku - the MA-6 and RIP plans), I just don’t know for sure whether they were planned to be realized, only in the case of the Germany-USSR union. Plus, Finland was seen as one of the bridgeheads for the offensive. And from the south, through Iran, the offensive on Baku and beyond, both wedges closed behind Moscow. I understand that the plan was not feasible, but the Poles also planned to defeat Germany in a few days reaching Berlin.

                        Quote: Rider
                        Nafih to classify ECONOMIC NEGOTIATIONS.

                        In our archives even the data on the agricultural success of certain regions were classified.
                      4. -9
                        5 October 2013 17: 42
                        Quote: Rider
                        maybe you don’t know about the intentions of England and France to launch the bombing of the USSR in 39 / 40g, (and subsequently in 42g) what prevented only the REAL start of the war in Europe in May 40g?

                        First, the goal of the operation was to reduce the supply of Soviet oil to Germany. Secondly, all these plans have not gone beyond the framework of draft projects (there were no bases from where to get to Baku or Poti, nor the required number of aircraft). To say that only the May German offensive prevented the bombing of Baku is at least stupid.
                        Quote: Rider
                        Or that Poland (which you advised to take as allies) opposed this even more, and she hoped to enter the war with the USSR on the side of Germany?

                        In 1939, no one asked Poland for an opinion. This is not about friendship, but about how to survive.
                      5. +4
                        5 October 2013 18: 37
                        Quote: Drummer
                        First, the goal of the operation was to reduce the supply of Soviet oil to Germany

                        does it change anything ?
                        or bomb all who trade with the enemy?
                        then why not start with Romania, from which 75% of the oil went to the Reich?
                        Quote: Drummer
                        Secondly, all these plans have not gone beyond the framework of draft projects (there were no bases from where to get to Baku or Poti, nor the required number of aircraft). To say that only the May German offensive prevented the bombing of Baku is at least stupid.

                        secondly, I advise you to read this article http://www.xliby.ru/istorija/velikii_antrakt/p27.php in it you will learn that the preparation was nevertheless carried out.
                        reconnaissance sorties with photographing of oil fields were made, and the necessary materials were collected at airfields.
                        and the action itself is scheduled for May 15.
                        irony of fate, do not start the Germans strike in France 5 days earlier, it is possible that the USSR entered the war on the side of Germany.

                        Well
                        Quote: Drummer
                        In 1939 no one asked Poland for an opinion
                        it matters not that her opinion was taken into account or not (but the fact that Poland ALL sabotaged the proposals means that they were still taken into account) but the fact that the USSR still proposed an alliance of England with France, in which the fate of Poland and Romania was implied.

                        and actually why this opinion of Poland did not interest anyone?
                      6. -4
                        5 October 2013 19: 10
                        Quote: Drummer
                        Does this change something? Or bomb all those who trade with the enemy? Then why not start with Romania, from which 75% of the oil went to the Reich?

                        Bombs and Romania, when they were able to reach it.
                        Quote: Rider
                        secondly, I advise you to read this article here http://www.xliby.ru/istorija/velikii_antrakt/p27.php in it you will find out that the preparation was nevertheless carried out. There were reconnaissance sorties with photographing of oil fields, and the necessary materials were collected at airfields. and the action itself is scheduled for May 15. Irony of fate, do not start the Germans strike in France 5 days earlier, it is possible that the USSR entered the war on the side of Germany.

                        Shirokorad source is the same. There is no reason to argue that the bombing plans of Soviet oil fields were close to implementation.
                        The reasons for this are very simple:
                        1. British bombers could get to Baku only from airfields in Iraq, but even here refueling was required on the territory of Turkey or Iran. Neither Turkey nor Iran (pro-German, by the way) gave permission to land and especially refueling.
                        2. In Iraq, there was neither a sufficient number of bombers, nor the required quantity of ammunition for such a large-scale operation.
                        Classical debriefing from Kurtukov: http://journal.kurtukov.name/?p=26
                        Isaev also spoke out: http://dr-guillotin.livejournal.com/99833.html
                      7. +3
                        5 October 2013 19: 26
                        Quote: Drummer
                        Bombs and Romania, when they were able to reach it.


                        yes, when they realized who would soon get the romanian oil.
                        Well, and the bombing of Baku.

                        The very statement of the question already suggests that England and France, at that time, were NOT USSR allies, and together with the protracted Moscow talks, it was clear that they would not help us.
                        so who else should we have made an agreement with?

                        hence the agreement with Germany.
                        and by the way, Shirokorad is not an authority for you, but the data from LJ is a fact.
                      8. -1
                        5 October 2013 19: 38
                        Quote: Rider
                        The very statement of the question already suggests that England and France, at that time, were NOT USSR allies, and together with the protracted Moscow negotiations, it was clear that they would not help us. So who else should we conclude an agreement with?

                        The statement of the question suggests that after the conclusion of the PMR, England and France began to consider the USSR as a non-combatant ally of Germany.
                        Quote: Rider
                        hence the agreement with Germany. And by the way, Shirokorad is not your authority for you, but the data from LJ is a fact.

                        You recently referred to Isaevskie 10 Myths? Why are you not satisfied with his LiveJournal or his interview?
                      9. +2
                        5 October 2013 19: 53
                        Quote: Drummer
                        The statement of the question suggests that after the conclusion of the PMR, England and France began to consider the USSR as a non-combatant ally of Germany.

                        Finally, they regarded him (the USSR) as an ENEMY. hence the sluggish negotiations in Moscow and the backroom in London.
                        hence, every push of Hitler to the east.
                        is this not enough for you?
                        what other evidence do you need?
                        but vaabsche this is a very interesting "logic" to refuse the USSR in the alliance, and "take offense" when he signed an agreement with the Germans (I hope you do not need to remind you that England and France themselves have already concluded such agreements with Germany)

                        and this brings us back to the conclusions of the article (which I support) that the treaty of the USSR and Germany at that time was not only justified, but necessary.

                        Well, according to Isaev. LiveJournal content does not open from Kazakhstan, and it is one thing to publish in a book, and quite another in a blog.
                      10. -3
                        5 October 2013 20: 15
                        Quote: Rider
                        but vaabsche this is a very interesting "logic" to refuse the USSR in the alliance, and "take offense" when he signed an agreement with the Germans (I hope you do not need to remind you that England and France themselves have already concluded such agreements with Germany)

                        Negotiations between England, France and the USSR have been going on since the spring of 1939 (immediately after Germany presented ultimatums to Poland and Lithuania) and in fact came up against the desire of the USSR to include the Baltic countries and Finland into its sphere of influence. The Germans promised Stalin much more.
                        Quote: Rider
                        Well, according to Isaev. LiveJournal content does not open from Kazakhstan, and it is one thing to publish in a book, and quite another in a blog.

                        Our anonymizers are everything you know. As for the blog, yes - there is a difference, but there is a link to a video interview. Here is a thread on the Golitsyn forum devoted to plans for the bombing of Soviet oil fields: http://russiainwar.forum24.ru/?1-5-0-00000050-000-0-0-1310108071
                        short and clear, involving schemes and documents.
                      11. +5
                        5 October 2013 20: 25
                        Quote: Drummer
                        and in fact they came up against the desire of the USSR to include the Baltic countries and Finland into their sphere of influence.

                        that is, you blame the breakdown of negotiations on the USSR?
                        original.
                        and nicho that the "allies" wanted only unilateral guarantees from our side?
                        and I’ll read the answer in Baku, but even if so, even the DESIRE to bomb Baku has already pushed Stalin to Hitler.
                        and you're all about the Baltic states and the Finns.

                        and the fact that they were included in the sphere of influence of the USSR is a great success.
                        where would the Germans be if they launched an offensive from the Baltic? And should not they be made victims of the Finns, since their claim to Karelia was almost up to the Urals, has not been canceled, or do you not know about it?
                      12. -3
                        5 October 2013 20: 46
                        Quote: Rider
                        that is, you blame the breakdown of negotiations on the USSR?

                        Basically, Stalin and Chamberlain tried. In general, the mission of Drax and Dumenka has a long history, the negotiations were considered hopelessly failed even before the City of Exeter left the port.
                        Quote: Rider
                        Where would the Germans be starting an offensive from the Baltic states?
                        And you should not make victims out of the Finns, since their claim to Karelia was almost up to the Urals, no one has canceled, or do you not know about it?

                        I know that until 1939, in Soviet military planning, Finland was not seen as a hostile state.
                      13. Shogun23
                        +1
                        5 October 2013 20: 54
                        But in Finland, the USSR was considered as a hostile state.
                      14. +1
                        5 October 2013 21: 01
                        Quote: Drummer
                        the negotiations were considered hopelessly failed even before the City of Exeter left the port.

                        in fact, this confirms that no one wanted to sign an agreement with the USSR, and there was nothing to blame everything on Stalin, he played with the cards that were.
                        Quote: Drummer
                        I know that until 1939

                        As you rightly answered above - the Finns considered.
                      15. +2
                        5 October 2013 20: 56
                        Quote: Rider
                        Here is a thread on the Golitsyn forum dedicated to plans for the bombing of Soviet oil fields

                        well, I read it, but FOR THE FIRST TIME, it doesn’t matter that the idea itself was utopian and unrealizable, the very fact of its existence was pushing the USSR away from England and France.
                        and the reaction to its implementation was to build up air defense in the Caucasus.

                        and the second necessary steps to carry out this action were nevertheless taken, such as flying around scouts of oil-bearing regions, striking plans developed at French headquarters, and the arrival of the French military in Turkey to conclude an aerodrome agreement.
                        as you can see this is more than enough to consider the English / French NOT allies of the USSR.

                        Well, here's what else I came across from your exile:Professor Overy spoke in Moscow a couple of weeks ago, showing on the figures that the damage from the Allied bombing ranged from 7 to 10% in various industries over the entire war.
                        Realizing that it was not possible to "bomb" the factories, the allies proceeded to destroy the workers' quarters

                        this is the question of "Dresden".
                      16. Evgan
                        -11
                        5 October 2013 18: 03
                        Regarding the plans of bombing by the British and French Baku. In 1940, it was not the plans of the two neutral powers to attack another neutral country. It was an attempt to protect oneself from the fact that a significant part of Caucasian oil would not fall into Hitler’s hands. In addition, we do not forget that England and France at that moment were at war with Germany, to which we supplied resources.
                        In 1942, these plans were tied only to the capture of the Caucasus by Hitler and in no case were directed against the USSR.
                        I do not justify the bombing plans, but just want to say that everyone has distinguished themselves. The Britons with the French - when they entered into a Munich agreement and when they purged the battle on the continent, although they could have decided everything in their favor relatively easily in September-October 1939. We, signing the non-aggression pact and cooperating in the economy with Hitler, also put ourselves in very good light.
                        In general, the pact has two sides. Pragmatic - he was really justified in terms of ensuring the security of our state, and moral - after all, it was an agreement with Hitler. However, who then looked back at morality ...
                      17. +4
                        5 October 2013 18: 29
                        Quote: EvgAn
                        after all, it was a contract with Hitler.

                        Which we concluded last.
                        see post below: Gordey. Today, 08: 34
                      18. Evgan
                        -3
                        5 October 2013 19: 05
                        Of course. And this removes from us a significant part of moral responsibility for him. But, unfortunately, not all.
                      19. +7
                        5 October 2013 18: 53
                        Quote: EvgAn
                        Regarding the plans of bombing by the British and French Baku. In 1940, it was not the plans of the two neutral powers to attack another neutral country. It was an attempt to protect oneself from a significant part of Caucasian oil not falling into Hitler’s hands.

                        I advise you to pay attention to the fact that THREE QUARTERS Reich received oil supplies from Romania.
                        however, no plans for the bombing of the Ploiesti oil fields were found at that time in England and France.
                      20. Evgan
                        0
                        5 October 2013 19: 07
                        Now estimate - what were the possibilities of bomber aviation at that time and where the English and French had airfields. Just outline the range of the bombers - and you’ll understand.
                      21. Shogun23
                        0
                        5 October 2013 19: 35
                        Sterlings and Halifaxes, could for 3 thousand km. fly, and from Syria to Azerbaijan less than 1,5 km. Plus you can use Iranian territory.
                      22. Evgan
                        0
                        5 October 2013 20: 44
                        We are talking about the fact that they could reach Baku from Iraq or Iran, and it was much more difficult to do this to Ploiesti.
                      23. Shogun23
                        +1
                        5 October 2013 20: 54
                        From Crimea, to Ploiesti a stone's throw.
                      24. Shogun23
                        +2
                        5 October 2013 19: 16
                        Quote: Rider
                        however, no plans for the bombing of the Ploiesti oil fields were found at that time in England and France.

                        The stump is clear, because they belonged to the American company "Standard-Oil", moreover, they did not want to bomb Ploiesti, even from the Crimean airfields in 1941, although such a proposal came from the USSR
                      25. 0
                        5 October 2013 19: 22
                        Ploiesti was completely bombed by the Americans in the summer of the 44th (by shuttle raids with landing in the Poltava region).
                      26. Shogun23
                        +3
                        5 October 2013 19: 30
                        This is already the 44th year, a completely different time.
                      27. +3
                        5 October 2013 19: 31
                        Quote: Drummer
                        the Americans completely bombarded their loies in the summer of the 44th (by shuttle raids with a landing in the Poltava region).

                        Well, the stump is clear, because they could not allow the USSR to get these deposits.
                      28. -4
                        5 October 2013 19: 57
                        Killer logic. But Dresden was also bombed so that the USSR did not go to it?
                      29. +6
                        5 October 2013 20: 17
                        Quote: Drummer
                        Killer logic. But Dresden was also bombed so that the USSR did not go to it?


                        Dresden was leveled to break the spirit of the German population. and force him to surrender.
                        and a kind of revenge for the Ardennes.

                        and Ploiesti Americans could get in 43 and even 42 from the airfields in Egypt, Sudan or Iraq.
                        but then it was important to bleed the USSR as much as possible
                      30. -3
                        5 October 2013 20: 58
                        Quote: Rider
                        and Ploiesti Americans could get in 43 and even 42 from the airfields in Egypt, Sudan or Iraq.

                        Air raids with extreme range, meager efficiency and high losses. Not surprisingly, they were not produced.
                        Quote: Rider
                        but then it was important to bleed the USSR as much as possible

                        In fact, in 1942 the Americans planned to open a second front in France to divert German forces from the East (Operation Roundup), but it did not work out. There was no question of weakening the already drained USSR even more. This is not a question of morality - pure pragmatism, the risk of defeat is very great.
                      31. +5
                        5 October 2013 21: 12
                        Quote: Drummer

                        Not surprisingly, they were not produced.

                        First raid on Ploiesti June 1942http://www.nnre.ru/transport_i_aviacija/bombardirovshiki_soyuznikov_1939_1945_sp

                        ravochnik_opredelitel_samoletov / p78.php

                        but they did not get a continuation, I voiced the reason.
                        Quote: Drummer
                        In fact, in 1942, the Americans planned to open a second front in France to divert German forces from the East (Operation Roundup),

                        well, promising does not mean - marrying, besides, to prove the impossibility of this, the British ruined almost 4000 people in landing on Dieppe (operation anniversary)
                        by the way, the time is almost the same with the Ploiesti bombing.
                        here is one more proof of the "desire" to help the USSR.
                      32. +1
                        5 October 2013 21: 41
                        Quote: Rider
                        The first raid on Ploiesti June 1942 http://www.nnre.ru/transport_i_aviacija/bombardirovshiki_soyuznikov_1939_1945_s
                        pravochnik_opredelitel_samoletov / p78.phpbut they did not receive a continuation, I voiced the reason.

                        Hm. Thank you, I didn’t.
                      33. +3
                        5 October 2013 22: 17
                        Quote: Drummer
                        Actually, the Americans at 1942 planned to open a second front in France
                        ... There was no question of further weakening the already bloodless USSR.

                        Someone is lying ...
                        If we see that Germany wins, then we should help Russia, and if Russia will win, we should help Germany, and thus let them kill as much as possible, although I do not want under any circumstances to see Hitler in the winners . Harry Truman. New York Times, 24.06.1941

                        The ideal outcome of a war in the East would be when the last German would kill the last Russian and stretch himself dead. Randolph Churchill, son of Winston Churchill
                      34. +3
                        5 October 2013 20: 59
                        Quote: Drummer
                        Killer logic. But Dresden was also bombed so that the USSR did not go to it?

                        So.
                      35. 0
                        6 October 2013 08: 22
                        Quote: Drummer
                        Killer logic. But Dresden was also bombed so that the USSR did not go to it?

                        And Dresden is already the cannibalistic inclinations of the British.
                      36. 0
                        5 October 2013 20: 59
                        Quote: Drummer
                        Ploiesti was completely bombed by the Americans in the summer of the 44th (by shuttle raids with landing in the Poltava region).

                        So that the Russians don't get it, just like, for example, Dresden. And to everyone who wants the recognition of the "guilt" of the USSR, let Britain and the United States first achieve a confession of guilt. these two countries were fighting for leadership in WWII, they are the main culprits.
                      37. Shogun23
                        +1
                        5 October 2013 19: 14
                        Quote: EvgAn
                        It was an attempt to protect oneself from the fact that a significant part of Caucasian oil would not fall into Hitler’s hands.

                        But what about American oil? The United States traded with Germany much more than ours, and continued to trade even after December 7, 1941.

                        In addition, we do not forget that England and France at that moment were at war with Germany, to which we supplied resources.

                        But what about the inviolability of another's property? When the British were offered to bomb German industry in the years 39-40, they began to resent that they would not dare to bomb other people's property.

                        Quote: EvgAn
                        By signing a non-aggression pact and working with Hitler in the economy, we also put ourselves in a not very good light.

                        Previously, 100500 times inviting the West to unite against the German threat, but all these proposals were successfully moved by this very West. As a result, Stalin decided to think about saving his country first, and economically Germany was traditionally the most important trading partner for Russia, and again, economically, more than one Soviet Union collaborated economically with Germany.

                        Quote: EvgAn
                        moral - after all, it was a contract with Hitler

                        This was the second major agreement with Germany for the entire period of Hitler’s rule, and how many similar agreements were concluded by Western countries are definitely not enough fingers of both hands. Moreover, their agreements were also military, for the production of weapons and military equipment, their repair and maintenance, etc. While the USSR supplied the raw materials, and how it will be used, this is already a matter for Germany, but you will not judge the metal supplier, from which you made a hammer with which the maniac killed a person?
                      38. Evgan
                        +1
                        5 October 2013 20: 54
                        Quote: Shogun23
                        But what about American oil? The United States traded with Germany much more than ours, and continued to trade even after December 7, 1941.


                        Agree that the Americans actively helped the Angles before Pearl Harbor and after. And without this help, the Angles would have been kirdyk. And how do you imagine the bombing of American territory in this situation?
                        You say double standards? Of course. And who did not use them then?

                        Quote: Shogun23
                        But what about the inviolability of another's property? When the British were offered to bomb German industry in the years 39-40, they began to resent that they would not dare to bomb other people's property.


                        And here is your lie. In 1940, the Angles had already begun to bomb the Hans. True, liquid - the strength was still not enough then.

                        Quote: Shogun23
                        Pre 100500 times offering to the West


                        Yes, yes, 100500 times you are right. But if 2 “righteous men” made a deal with the devil, this is not an excuse for a third to do the same, is it?
                        At the same time I repeat - I think that the pact from a pragmatic position was justified 100%
                      39. Shogun23
                        -1
                        5 October 2013 20: 58
                        Quote: EvgAn
                        But if 2 "righteous men" made a deal with the devil, this is not an excuse for a third to do the same, is it?

                        After the war, the Allies made Hitler the Devil.
                      40. +2
                        5 October 2013 21: 29
                        Quote: Shogun23
                        After the war, the Allies made Hitler the Devil.

                        And having untied the world massacre, destroying millions, the demoniac remained "white and fluffy"?
                      41. Shogun23
                        +2
                        5 October 2013 21: 31
                        But Napoleon remained a hero.
                      42. +1
                        5 October 2013 22: 35
                        Quote: Shogun23
                        But Napoleon remained a hero.

                        You should not idealize Napoleon, and he is a "product" of another time.
                      43. +5
                        5 October 2013 19: 47
                        Quote: EvgAn
                        and collaborating in economics with Hitler, also put themselves in a not very good light.

                        In an ordinary, in an ordinary light. As States that are not at war. If we are not at war, then why cannot we trade? Purely business relations. And they did not arise "all of a sudden." The first treaty. The so-called Rapallo. Between (then still) The RSFSR and the Weimar Republic was concluded on April 16, 1922 during the Genoa Conference in the city of Rapallo (Italy). By the way, very necessary. He settled many aspects of relations between Us and Germany (restoration of diplomacy, in full. Refusal of claims, to reimburse the military and non-military expenditures. The Germans recognized the nationalization of the German state. and private property in the RSFSR). April 23, 1926, an agreement confirming Rapal's obligations. The main agreement, dated 1935, for 200 Llama marks. Yes, bound. But! According to it we received industrial equipment, very necessary. Additional to it, from 1938. The agreement from 1939, this is an addition to the trade agreements of 1935 and 1938.
                      44. Evgan
                        -1
                        5 October 2013 20: 58
                        Then I will say that we are both right. The light is really ordinary for that time - for the same Yankees traded with Germany. But he still pulls a choke from him.
                2. +4
                  5 October 2013 12: 58
                  Excuse me, but do you read books published in England?
                  Quote: Drummer
                  Passers-by I advise you to read some book on the history of WWII
                  1. -6
                    5 October 2013 14: 32
                    In order to find out that England and France declared war on Germany on September 3, 1939, it’s enough to open a history textbook for the corresponding period, or to hammer a request into Google.
                3. +7
                  5 October 2013 14: 29
                  Quote: Drummer
                  Minusters advise reading a book on the history of WWII.

                  Do you want to advise V. Suvorov?
                  1. Shogun23
                    +10
                    5 October 2013 15: 22
                    Ok, cute! Do not give him the name of this illustrious man! Rezun he was, is and will be!
                    1. +4
                      6 October 2013 01: 44
                      Quote: Shogun23
                      Rezun he was, is and will be!

                      The father of this renegade did not forgive the betrayal, actually denying him.
                      Since the inception of the idea of ​​treason, he is simply a subject without a name or honor ...
                4. +3
                  5 October 2013 19: 42
                  Drummer-Before you advise anyone, read it yourself, at least something different from the collection of fool-rezun, corned beef, falcon, and textbooks on the history of the Second World War.
                5. +4
                  5 October 2013 22: 31
                  Quote: Drummer
                  Minusters advise reading a book on the history of WWII.

                  How do you like these authors: Liddelgart, Tippelskirch, Guderian, Goth, Manstein, Fest, Isaev? Read and find, maybe.
              3. sanecc
                -4
                5 October 2013 17: 09
                and Th minus ten ---- THESE A WRONG CHEL? I DIRECTLY PRUSED FROM THE OBJECTIVITY OF THE ASSESSMENTS - WE ARE BEAUTIFUL AND SMART - OTHER UGLY VALVES
              4. kripto
                +2
                5 October 2013 19: 33
                Go to the library and study literature, and not dump your fantasies here.
              5. Dovmont
                +1
                5 October 2013 22: 51
                Drummer They declared war on Germany, but they didn’t take any action against Germany.
              6. +1
                5 October 2013 23: 28
                Quote: Drummer
                in reality, England and France declared war on Germany two days after the invasion of Poland.

                And these two days fell on the weekend? And what's the difference, they didn’t start fighting, until Hitler attacked them.
              7. +1
                6 October 2013 07: 54
                Quote: Drummer
                These are your fantasies, in reality England and France declared war on Germany two days after the invasion of Poland.

                Aha! though not a single cannon fired during the year of this war! "Strange war" remind whose expression is this? .But regularly played football.
              8. +1
                6 October 2013 16: 46
                Quote: Drummer
                These are your fantasies, in reality England and France declared war on Germany two days after the invasion of Poland.

                Yes, and such military operations were called "zitskrieg"
              9. +1
                6 October 2013 20: 48
                and what actions did they take besides declaring war ???
          3. +8
            5 October 2013 12: 18
            Quote: Cooper
            At 39 Hitler would have been erased to powder.

            All is correct. Both England and France declared war on him. But why not erased? Stalin was in favor.
            By the way, there was also a Polish-German agreement. And Czechoslovakia in 1938 was Derbanil not only Germany, but also Poland and Hungary.
          4. +8
            5 October 2013 13: 45
            -Cooper: At 39 Hitler would be pulverized.
            In the second half of 2 it was unambiguous. Unfortunately, the British managed to convince Hitler to attack the USSR.
            -Drummer KZ: And what is the victory of diplomacy?
            Read the article carefully.
            We went to the border ("Curzon line"), ie no seizure of Polish lands.
            And after the capture of Poland, Hitler "moved" to the West, not us!
            If the war were met at the borders of 1939 (it was ~ 30 km from the border to Leningrad) it would have been much harder.
            PS There is evidence that Hitler flew to London, where the Britons brazenly promised him mountains of gold, right up to the union, and Hess’s flight was a distracting maneuver. It’s not for nothing that the documents of the Foreign Ministry of that period have not been declassified.
          5. Shogun23
            +3
            5 October 2013 14: 59
            Yeah, And the dream of all "Western democracies" would come true - the war between the USSR and Germany, and in the end they would feast on the bones of both powers.
        2. +2
          5 October 2013 13: 20
          The betrayal and revision of Soviet history, the activities of Stalin IV, including the Moscow Treaty of 1939 between the USSR and Germany (Molotov-Ribentrop Pact), began by the leaders of our state back in Soviet times, first by the stupidity of Khrushchev, and then deliberately, the traitors of the Gorbachev time were agents of US influence Gorbachev and Yakovlev with the campaign.
          Yakovleva Gorbachev introduced the Politburo, appointing him Secretary of the Central Committee for ideology. After Yakovlev was appointed Secretary of the Central Committee for Ideology, an open revision of Soviet history began, including during the Second World War.
          Based on the revisionist "perestroika ideology" prepared by Gorbachev and Yakovlev, the 1989 Congress of People's Deputies condemned the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact by its resolution.
          The same policy, condemnation of the actions of the Soviet leaders during the Second World War, was continued by Yeltsin, and then by his successor in power, Putin, who confirmed the illegality of the "Molotov-Ribentrop Pact" on the 2th anniversary of the outbreak of World War II in Poland.
          As the saying goes, if its leadership officially recognized "the illegality of the Molotov-Ribentrop Pact", what is there to ask foreign leaders who are clearly interested in recognizing the USSR, and accordingly Russia, the aggressor and culprit of World War II together with Nazi Germany? with the corresponding legal consequences of such recognition in the form of financial and territorial compensation.
          After that, the only question that arises is which of our leaders of the state of past and present is the agent of influence of a foreign state, and who is a person who does not give an account of his words.
          1. Ulan
            0
            7 October 2013 09: 51
            I completely agree with you. Just one comment. Only a court can recognize someone or something criminal.
            Deputies can only make statements that are their private opinion and no more.
            With regard to the moral side of this matter, it is hardly appropriate to speak about the morality of deputies and leaders of the country. One cannot discuss what is not.
        3. -9
          5 October 2013 18: 09
          Until September 1, 39, we had Snemites and there was no common border, and if not the pact, then the Germans did not attack Poland
          1. +2
            5 October 2013 18: 35
            Quote: slava_sherb
            and if not a pact, then the Germans did not attack Poland

            Yeah ... And so they planned an attack in a week, mobilized and turned around to attack ... Yeah ...
          2. Shogun23
            +1
            5 October 2013 19: 17
            And you read the plan "Weiss", how much is written there about the influence on the beginning of the war, the position of the USSR?
          3. Ulan
            0
            7 October 2013 09: 52
            Study the topic first before issuing such pearls.
      2. +27
        5 October 2013 10: 36
        Drummer
        The USSR did not have allies — the Entente Straets planned the dismemberment and destruction of our country and set Hitler on their fosterling. Shot down a coalition-Germany Poland, Finland, the Baltic states. Finland conducted regular exercises with the Balts to block the Gulf of Finland with help. coastal batteries up to 305 mm, and planned to seize our territory in a mandatory connection with the actions of the Japanese, opened the largest Japanese intelligence center. valid until September 44. So, then, they all did not come out against us as a united front - this is a real victory.
        It is possible to ignore the fundamental change in the state of our armed forces from 39 to 41 only intentionally — all the main types of tank and aircraft namesake that we used during the military technical operations were adopted and put into production precisely during this period. Transfer. or will shame not allow you to admit that you don’t even know this? :))) You don’t know how much we upgraded our machinery at the expense of the Germans during this period?
        Living conditions, this, adnaka, is important, but if we didn’t return our Baltic territories, if we didn’t return part of our territory to the Finns, we would be close to collapse in 41, Leningrad would have been lost. And Leningrad is 25 percent of the industrial potential, this is the millionth liberated group of Nazis, this is the 600 thousandth Finnish army, which would have flooded to Murmansk ... like it? And keep in mind, Finnish aggressive plans for a coalition war have been prepared for 20 years. From that. that we pushed the border. having returned part of their territory, their plans have not changed a bit. I'm not saying that the Germans would be two years longer than the genocide of the population of Ukraine and Belarus, who lived in territories previously occupied by the Poles. A stationary defensive lines showed their inconsistency during the 2 MV - they did not stop anyone anywhere.
        And last, what international image did the USSR have at that time? Target country. which the leading powers of the planet were about to tear to pieces. We did not ruin our relations with any potential ally, but we broke up the anti-Russian coalition, increased our international image, showing our strength and making us reckon with us.
        In view of the foregoing, your conclusions, alas, look like an uncomplicated set of ideological clichés from the time of perestroika, based on nothing. The argument is simply sucked from ... let it be a finger, although I can’t imagine who has such dirty fingers ... :)))
        1. +5
          5 October 2013 15: 01
          dear smile, here I wanted to enter into a "fight" for a just cause, but you have already done everything. What you write is true and only distant people or European intriguers will dispute and distort these facts. THANK YOU.
          1. +2
            5 October 2013 15: 27
            sergey1972
            Thank you for your support.
          2. kripto
            +2
            5 October 2013 19: 47
            I completely agree with you. Here are just deprived of the pleasure of the "fight"))) !!!
      3. +8
        5 October 2013 10: 39
        Quote: Drummer
        And what is the victory of diplomacy? The fact that the USSR entered the war without a single ally?

        And who could become an ally of the USSR - England and France? In theory, such a union could have been. But in practice, in my opinion, neither the allies nor the USSR were eager to create such an alliance. Negotiations went neither shakily, nor roll. Allies behaved passively, did not offer specifics. For them, it was a sounding of the soil. In the future, this could lead to something. But we were running out of time. We had a conflict on Khalkhin Gall and no one knew this conflict would grow into a big war or not. Hence the USSR’s position - you don’t want to hell with you, we will conclude an alliance with the Germans. The alliance with the Germans looked interesting: we get territories (and ours — we crossed the Curzon line, and the allies didn’t even protest after our troops entered Poland — for they understood that we were taking our own. Relations deteriorated only after the outbreak of war with the Finns, here then we were kicked out of the League of Nations), again, the war between Germany and the Allies looked interesting, even if they kill each other there - yes it is cynical and cruel, but such a life is either oppressive or bent on you. No one could have imagined that the Germans would outperform the French in three weeks.
        For 39 years, I do not believe in the possibility of an alliance between the USSR and the Union, I can not imagine the Communists and capitalists in one team - at that time. No one thought that the war would be like that. The Germans are of course a serious opponent, but nobody considered that the Germans would be defeated by the Germans or go to the Volga.
        1. Ulan
          +5
          5 October 2013 11: 30
          What kind of alliance between the USSR and Germany are we talking about? Maybe you’ll sound what the union treaty was called when it was concluded and against whom it was concluded. It would be nice to voice some of the most important articles ... well, for example, in the event of a military conflict, the Soviet Union exposes 70 infantry divisions, 30 tank divisions, 3000 airplanes, etc. d.
          Or at least a link where you can read the text of this union agreement.
          You can believe it, you can’t believe it, this is an ephemeral category, and I will allow myself to remind you of the agreement of the USSR with France and Czechoslovakia. It is quite a capitalist state.
        2. -14
          5 October 2013 12: 09
          Well, that's about the results, and not about how the future was presented in 1939.
          The bottom line is that the Pact has brought us nothing but problems, and its long-term consequences in the form of hostile Poland and the Baltic countries are felt even now. By the way, independent Ukraine, too, could hardly have formed without the territories cut off in 1939 (vast areas of the south of Russia, Stalin gave Ukraine earlier).
          Quote: Uzoliv
          And who could become an ally of the USSR - England and France? In theory, such a union could have been. But in practice, in my opinion, neither the allies nor the USSR were eager to create such an alliance. Negotiations went neither shakily, nor roll.

          The long way begins with one step - for the USSR, such a step could be a declaration on supporting Poland and the Baltic countries in the event of Gremansky aggression (in May 39 the AIF announced this).
          Quote: Uzoliv
          The alliance with the Germans looked interesting: we get territories (and ours — we crossed the Curzon line, and the allies did not even protest after our troops entered Poland — for they understood that we were taking our own.

          It was better to have good neighborly relations with the Balts and Finns, and leave the Ukrainian and Belarusian nationalists to the Poles. The long-term alliance between Germany and the USSR in 1939 had no chance - all the advantages overlap with the fact that the USSR inevitably has the role of a junior partner in it, and in the future, a raw materials appendage.
          1. Misantrop
            +8
            5 October 2013 12: 17
            Quote: Drummer
            its distant consequences in the form of hostile Poland and the Baltic countries are felt even now.
            Found, damn it, the notorious Slavophiles ... lol You might think that they throughout their history had a different attitude to the Slavs, but it was this pact that made a mess of everything ...
            1. -5
              5 October 2013 12: 32
              I’ll tell you more - the Poles and the Slavs themselves, and the Latvians and Lithuanians not far from the Slavs left, in addition, about 30% of the population of the Baltic countries and until 1940 was Russian-speaking - the legacy of the Russian Empire.
              1. +5
                5 October 2013 12: 50
                Quote: Drummer
                I'll tell you more - the Poles and the Slavs themselves


                Here's an example of how the "Slavs" wanted to fight against the USSR

                On December 28, 1938, Counselor at the German Embassy in Poland, Rudolf von Shelia, meets with the newly appointed Polish Ambassador to Iran, Karsho-Sedlevsky. Here is an excerpt from their conversation: “The political perspective for the European East is clear. In a few years, Germany will be at war with the Soviet Union ... For Poland, it is better to completely side with Germany before the conflict, because Poland’s territorial interests in the west and Poland’s political goals in the east, primarily in Ukraine, can only be secured by Polish-German agreement reached in advance. He, Karsho-Sedlevsky, will subordinate his activities as the Polish envoy to Tehran to the realization of this great Eastern concept, because in the end it is necessary to persuade and encourage the Persians and Afghans to play an active role in the future war against the Soviets. ” This, therefore, is a whole concept!

                Or, on December 10, 1938, the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Poland, Count Schembek, sends an instruction to the Polish ambassador in Moscow Grzybowski: “It is extremely difficult for us to maintain a balance between Russia and Germany. Our relations with the latter are completely based on the concept of the most responsible persons of the Third Reich, who claim that in the future conflict between Germany and Russia Poland will be a natural ally of Germany. "

                And in a December 1938 report from the 2nd (intelligence) department of the General Staff of the Polish Army emphasized: “The dismemberment of Russia lies at the heart of Polish politics in the East ... Therefore, our possible position will be reduced to the following formula: who will take part in the section. Poland should not remain passive at this wonderful historical moment. The task is to prepare well in advance physically and spiritually ... The main goal is to weaken and defeat Russia. ”

                Read more: http://www.km.ru/front-projects/krestovyi-pokhod-zapada-protiv-rossii/raschlenen
                ie-rossii-lezhit-v-osnove-polskoi-pol


                I hope now your illusions about the "Slavic brotherhood" with the Poles will disappear.
                1. +1
                  5 October 2013 13: 18
                  Rider
                  Hello. Oh, and I, too, gave a certificate from the 2nd department of the General Staff of the Polish Army ... honestly, regardless of you ... :)))
                2. -5
                  5 October 2013 14: 45
                  How does this refute my claim that the Poles are Slavs? Is it somewhere I have written that Russian with a Pole brothers forever? If a neighbor grinds your teeth and says unpleasant things, this is not a reason not to help him in the fight against a common and truly dangerous enemy.
                  1. +4
                    5 October 2013 15: 14
                    Quote: Drummer
                    If a neighbor grinds your teeth and says unpleasant things, this is not a reason not to help him in the fight against a common and truly dangerous enemy.


                    This phrase makes you seriously worry about the presence of causal relationships.
                    Excuse WHOM to help?
                    the state about to attack us?
                    they were brought to you by their OFFICIAL position, we are ENEMIES for them, moreover, they strongly resist the creation of an anti-Hitler union.
                    AND THERE WAS IT AND WAS SO YOU DESIRED STEP ON CREATION OF THE SOVIET POLISH UNION!
                    tell you whose fault he did not take place?

                    Have you ever read anything on that topic?
                    1. -4
                      5 October 2013 17: 57
                      Want to prove that Poland is an opponent comparable to Germany? Will not work.
                      1. +2
                        5 October 2013 18: 43
                        Quote: Drummer
                        Otite to prove that Poland is an adversary comparable with Germany? Will not work

                        I could tell you a lot of things, but I’ll just ask.
                        you want to say that Poland was an ally of the USSR?
                        and if she (Poland) felt a threat from Germany, then why did not FIRST try to establish allied relations with us?

                        but the answer is simple, and I already voiced it to you.
                        Poland SAMA wanted to attack the USSR.
                      2. kripto
                        +1
                        5 October 2013 19: 51
                        Moreover, Poland was not averse to chop off a fat piece from Germany.
                      3. Shogun23
                        +1
                        5 October 2013 20: 05
                        They chopped him off and didn’t choke, but they didn’t say thanks either
                  2. Shogun23
                    +1
                    5 October 2013 20: 07
                    Quote: Drummer
                    If a neighbor grinds your teeth and says unpleasant things, this is not a reason not to help him in the fight against a common and truly dangerous enemy.

                    And you tell them did not offer this help? They offered more than once, but the Poles did not accept this help, they seriously hoped for Franco-British guarantees.
              2. +2
                5 October 2013 12: 58
                Quote: Drummer
                I’ll tell you more - the Poles and the Slavs themselves,

                Now you will definitely not get a visa to Poland laughing
              3. 0
                5 October 2013 17: 26
                until 1940 it was Russian-speaking


                And also German-speaking. Also the legacy of the Russian Empire. By the way, until 1917 there were more ethnic Germans in the Baltic than Russians. The same German University of Dorpat already means a lot. There were no Russian universities on the territory of the Baltic provinces
              4. 0
                5 October 2013 21: 11
                Quote: Drummer
                I'll tell you more - the Poles and the Slavs themselves

                They are Catholics, and Catholics, oddly enough, they reject the soul.
          2. +3
            5 October 2013 12: 37
            Poland was always opposed to Russia. (the opposition of Catholicism and Orthodoxy + Poland reached its heyday under the RUSSIAN Jagiellons.) Stalin did not give the Outskirts of the territory (with the exception of the western one). Stalin was against the creation of nat. republics, but succumbed to the opinion of Lenin and the majority of "revolutionaries" who want to have their "subjects" These territories were seized under Kerensky Austrian-German nationalists
            Our country was ready to provide assistance to Czechoslovakia and Romania and Bulgaria. But you will not be forcibly sweet. These prostitutes worked for the English (just like today's ours for Amers)
            Do you know how many daily defectors from the same Baltic were until 1940? Just the best standard of living. Despite the collective farms of the NKVD, etc. And what did Stalin buy from Hitler and presented to Lithuania?
            1. Shogun23
              0
              5 October 2013 14: 50
              Well, not always, but quite a lot. For example, in the XNUMXth century, Tsarevich Alexei Alekseevich had every chance of being elected king of Poland (but alas he died), plus they fought with us several times, and in the Seven Years War they allowed our troops to go through their territory.
          3. +7
            5 October 2013 13: 14
            Drummer
            The bottom line of the Moscow Treaty remains:
            1. the acquired territories did not allow the Germans to achieve much more impressive successes, they simply did not manage to capture Peter, communications stretched for hundreds of kilometers. The armed forces of the Baltic states did not take part in the war on the side of Hitler. Our industry has worked fine and has been updated very well thanks to German supplies. We launched a series of weapons and military equipment, which bore the brunt of the war. The time that the Nazis traveled to Ukraine and the Baltic states is precious days and weeks, which allowed for almost exemplary evacuation of enterprises. We saved the Belarusians and Ukrainians in the territories liberated from the Poles from the two-year genocide - this is millions of lives.
            2. The Declaration on the Defense of Poland, which was our worst enemy and openly preparing a war of aggression with us, including with Germany, causes only mocking laughter.
            Reference: 38 year. From the report of the 2nd department of the General Staff of the Polish Army:
            ... The dismemberment of Russia lies at the heart of Polish politics in the East. Therefore, our possible position will be reduced to the following formula: Who will take part in the section. Poland should not remain passive at this wonderful moment. The main thing is to prepare. The main goal is the weakening and division of Russia ...

            LIKE THIS! Are you the ones you want to protect?

            3. Concerning nationalism in the USSR. In 43, Bandera, under Hitler's patronage, created the "Bloc of Captive Nations" and held the first congress. This is an anti-Russian organization designed to organize interethnic strife and separatism in the USSR. After we finished off Nazism, this organization came under the wing of the CIA with the same name and staff. The organization was expanded into it, thousands of Hitler's collaborators and war criminals joined. It was this organization that coordinated and developed separatism and nationalism in the USSR. All perestroika nationalists in the republics received support from her. most of all Ukrainian and Baltic. The Baltic leaders are not right now. what they do not hide, they boast in memoirs and interviews.
            Google, you’ll be very happy in this Nazi gang, which was later acquired by the successors of the Nazis-USA. full of like-minded people. :)))
            Your last offer gives you a head-reject the Ukrainians, let them make enemies. Refuse the alliance with Belarus-let Russophobia blossom too ... is this your blue dream? Well, you let out, you can’t but know that the more we make concessions, the more they demand from us. Is always. Thank God this time has passed.
            I express my thoughts. that Stalin could be a junior partner to anyone .... :))) do not disgrace. If this is your partner whispered to you, change him to fuck, he lied to you. :)))
            1. +2
              5 October 2013 13: 18
              Quote: smile
              If this is your partner whispered to you, change him to fuck, he lied to you. :)))


              ahhh !!!

              ya by the foot!

              neighing for a long time, shake my hand.
            2. +10
              5 October 2013 14: 10
              Quote: smile
              1. the acquired territories did not allow the Germans to achieve much more impressive successes, they simply did not manage to capture Peter, communications stretched for hundreds of kilometers

              A year ago, one Pole complained to me that from the lands joined in the 1939 year, 150-200 thousand Poles were deported to Siberia.
              That's what I told him about this: "In 1939 the border was pushed back by 300 km., And in 1941 the Germans did not have enough to reach Moscow 27 km. And in this regard, I don't give a damn how many Poles were taken to Siberia."
              1. +5
                5 October 2013 15: 35
                You would ask him if he knew how many Russian soldiers the Poles killed in their concentration camps after the 1st World War ??????
                1. +8
                  5 October 2013 15: 56
                  Quote: GarySit
                  Does he know how many Russian soldiers the Poles ruined in their concentration camps?

                  Knows. I already posted the details of some of our conversations with him. He reproached Katynya all the time, and when I presented them for the tortured Red Army men, he answered masterpiece: "YOURSELF DIED" !!!
                  This is their interpretation of History.
                2. Shogun23
                  +1
                  5 October 2013 16: 04
                  after the Soviet-Polish
              2. +4
                5 October 2013 15: 36
                chehywed
                Exactly! Well said! There and the road to them ... and, by the way, it will be said, the Pole lied to you. The criminal element and the potentially dangerous were taken out much less. And so did all the warring parties. And in general, let them say thanks that all the Polish war criminals, besiegers and gendarmes were not shot ... out, only the Germans frolic around Katyn. And then everything was blamed on us ....
          4. Shogun23
            +5
            5 October 2013 14: 47
            Quote: Drummer
            The bottom line is that the Pact has brought us nothing but problems, and its long-term consequences in the form of hostile Poland and the Baltic countries are felt even now. By the way, independent Ukraine, too, could hardly have formed without the territories cut off in 1939 (vast areas of the south of Russia, Stalin gave Ukraine earlier).

            And before that Poland was friendly to the USSR? What a news! The beginning of their "friendliness" comes from the Soviet-Polish war, and then its peak probably falls on the Neurath-Lipske pact, when Poland wanted to chop off Eastern Ukraine and Belarus with the support of German weapons.

            Quote: Drummer
            The long way begins with one step - for the USSR, such a step could be a declaration on supporting Poland and the Baltic countries in the event of Gremansky aggression (in May 39 the AIF announced this).

            Did you know that Poland was repeatedly offered this option during the summer of 1939? But the "proud and independent" Poles rejected it ... And the Baltic states agreed to this support and allowed the presence of the Red Army military bases on their territory.

            Quote: Drummer
            It was better to have good neighborly relations with the Balts and Finns, and leave the Ukrainian and Belarusian nationalists to the Poles.

            And it is necessary that they also want these "good neighborly relations." But the Finns, for example, slept and saw dreams about "Great Finland", I already wrote about the Balts, they had such good-neighborly relations that they became part of the USSR VOLUNTARY. And in Western Ukraine and Belarus, not only "nationalists" were, I will even say they were a minority there.

            Quote: Drummer
            The long-term alliance between Germany and the USSR in 1939 had no chance - all the advantages overlap with the fact that the USSR inevitably has the role of a junior partner in it, and in the future, a raw materials appendage.

            What alliance are you talking about?
          5. +5
            5 October 2013 15: 13
            Quote: Drummer
            consequences in the form of hostile Poland and the Baltic countries

            Yes, the Poles and before that were hostile. In the 20s and early 30s, Polish intelligence carried out sabotage on the territory of the USSR. And this fact is not denied even by liberal historians. At Echo of Moscow there was a cycle of programs called the Price of Victory. There was a program dedicated to the pre-war relations of Poland and the USSR, there it is. Relations between Poland and the USSR before the war can be described in one word - hatred.
            Quote: Drummer
            for the USSR, such a step could be a declaration on supporting Poland and the Baltic countries

            Given the fact that the Allies conducted military operations after the German attack on Poland, the USSR could be in a situation of dragging chestnuts out of the fire for others.
            Quote: Drummer
            The long-term alliance between Germany and the USSR in 1939 had no chance

            So Stalin understood this.

            I can partly agree with you that the pact did not bring the dividends for which they were counting. But in that situation, not everything depended on the USSR. Negotiations are mutual, it’s difficult to negotiate with people who do not particularly want to talk with you. What did the Poles ask for security guarantees from Germany from the USSR - no. Or the foreign ministers of the Allies crawled at the doors of our Foreign Ministry with proposals for a military alliance - either. And they had to do it. Because a major war didn’t give them anything good. England entered the First World War as a creditor to the United States, and left the war already as a debtor. The following algorithm is obvious. I understand they did not want to fight. After the victory from Germany there is nothing to take; there are no colonies, to rob her with reparations - they robbed her in 20 years, the result was that in the impoverished Germany the position of the Communists grew sharply. And communist Germany is a terrible dream of capitalism. So they pacified her, they all pulled and pulled and reached.
            1. -1
              5 October 2013 18: 26
              Quote: Uzoliv
              So Stalin understood this.

              Not at all sure. Look at the instructions given to Molotov during the November 1940 meeting - it was a question of a favorable for the USSR division of spheres of influence in the Middle East (Turkey, Iran, Iraq) as a fee for entering the war on the Axis side.
            2. +1
              5 October 2013 18: 42
              No, they sent some secondary ones, I don’t even know what to call them. I think they just wanted to feel it, but that was all. And actually the policy of England and France was in setting Germany against the USSR. SUMMARY: this is the most, drummer, , does not know or does not want to know the truth, in general he is a dumbass.
          6. +1
            5 October 2013 17: 18
            In the bottom line, the Pact brought us nothing but problems, and its long-term consequences in the form of hostile Poland and the Baltic countries


            Well, they have already indicated here that this is obvious nonsense. In the period from 1920 to 1939, Poland was the USSR's probable opponent No. 1. This is not news to anyone. And to Voroshilov’s question on 14.08.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX about the possibility of corridors through the territory of Poland, both Drax and Dumenk unanimously answered that this was impossible. For what reason - it is impossible - no one began to specify, neither the Soviet side, nor the Anglo-Saxons with the French. Everything was clear. And here you are, without hesitation, declare some potential friends. Take history lightly
      4. +1
        5 October 2013 10: 50
        and the fact that the British and the paddlers were preparing an attack on the USSR before Hitler is a fact, what the hell are the allies, we didn’t have them when and if there were prostitutes and.
        1. Shogun23
          0
          5 October 2013 15: 20
          Well, as far as I remember, according to their documents, these are defensive plans, in case of the union of the USSR and Germany.
      5. +2
        5 October 2013 11: 21
        These are only the simplest, immediate consequences of PMR


        I did not understand how the pact affected the development of the tank industry and the training of command personnel. Both this and the other obviously need more time than 2 years from the 39th to the 41st
        1. Ulan
          +2
          5 October 2013 11: 34
          If we take it as an axiom that the tank industry in the USSR and the training of command personnel began only after the signing of the pact, then the influence is really not decisive.
          But for this you need to forget that it began much earlier and the time for development was not two years, but much more.
          Development did not start after the signing of the pact, but by signing increased the time for the already ongoing development, for its intensification.
      6. +4
        5 October 2013 11: 45
        Quote: Drummer
        And what is the victory of diplomacy? The fact that the USSR entered the war without a single ally?

        What allies? Are you flying in the clouds? The entire capitalist world only dreamed of destroying the USSR with the help of Hitler. Actually, it was created for this. But Hitler deceived the "hopes" of the European imperialists and turned his weapons against them in the first place. It was here that they rushed in, trying to get the USSR as "allies", knowing full well that only he could break Hitler's neck. Which ultimately happened. Then what model line did Hitler update? He simply appropriated weapons to France, Czechoslovakia, etc., for example, more than 400 Czech light tanks LT-38, which amounted to more than half of all light tanks of the Wehrmacht during the attack on the USSR.
      7. +3
        5 October 2013 13: 25
        What is the victory of diplomacy? The fact is that we were not drawn into the war in 1939. The fact is that on August 12, 1939, negotiations began between France, Britain and the USSR. The Soviet leadership foresaw a war between Poland and Germany, therefore, it was not unreasonable that they demanded passes through Poland in order to come into direct contact with the forces of Germany. Our diplomats have put this at the forefront of the formation of any union. But what are our future "allies" doing? They send people to negotiations who have no right to conclude any agreement with the USSR. General Dumenc, the head of the French mission, had at least a mandate and proposed a scheme for mobilizing the French army, but he was eliminated along the aisles. The British generally "distinguished themselves" - they sent retired Admiral Drax WITHOUT POWERS AND MANDATE AT ALL !!!!

        But the most interesting is not this, but the fact that he stated:

        If Poland and Romania do not require assistance from the USSR, they will soon become simple German provinces, AND THEN the USSR WILL DECIDE HOW TO COME WITH THEM.

        Negotiations dragged on (Poland did not want to provide passes). On August 20, Hitler appealed to Stalin to receive Ribbentrop to sign the Non-Attack Pact. On August 21, the head of the Soviet delegation Voroshilov did not receive the main answer regarding the aisles and curtailed negotiations. On August 23, the Pact was signed.

        And about VPK-T-34 and KV, have been mass-produced since 1940, as well as the MIG-1, Yak-1, and other types of weapons
        1. +2
          5 October 2013 13: 53
          In addition, I want to say: Ribbenttrop is not some admiral, this is the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Third Reich
      8. Shogun23
        0
        5 October 2013 15: 03
        You dear, look everything through the prism of war, that is, you already know what happened then, but answer one question: How much, in our time, can last in a war against the United States, say India or Iran?
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. 0
          5 October 2013 15: 55
          Who cares?
          1. Shogun23
            0
            5 October 2013 17: 59
            There is an up arrow, which shows to whom and where the answer goes
      9. kripto
        +2
        5 October 2013 19: 30
        Let me find out about what are the likely allies of the USSR in 1939-1941. You speak? Name at least one state in pre-war Europe that even with a big stretch could be considered as an ally. A huge minus to you for misinterpreting historical reality.
      10. +2
        5 October 2013 20: 33
        Quote: Drummer
        And what is the victory of diplomacy? The fact that the USSR entered the war without a single ally?

        We have two allies - the army and the navy. An example of Poland is not an indicator for you?
      11. Sokolowik
        +4
        5 October 2013 21: 53
        Drummer. Questions are answers.
        1.Question: Who and for what created the Third Reich as it was by 1939?
        Answer: The elite of Great Britain and the USA to counterbalance the growing power and influence of the USSR, and in a special period as the vanguard of aggression against the USSR (And with the active military support of sponsors).
        Total: The alignment of the parties; USSR- Germany + Italy + Japan (Having Great Britain, France, USA and other European and not only European trifles ....
        100% defeat for the USSR.
        2. Question: Why was the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact signed and what did he give to the parties?
        Answer: The German elite (and not Hitler) did not trust their sponsors. Only by defeating their neighbors in increasing military power (Czechoslovakia, Anschluss of Austria, Poland ... France, Great Britain) Germany, having secured her back, could fight with the USSR based on a subordinate European base. A military clash with the USSR in 1939, Germany simply could not stand it .... (Sponsors, of course, would come to the rescue
        and the Soviet Union figured out .... but with the idea of ​​world domination would have to part)
        The USSR elite (and not Stalin) perfectly understood the alignment of interests of all parties and played on it .... they correctly calculated that war with Germany could not be avoided but who would decide the outcome of the war in allies.
        Total: The alignment of the parties; the USSR, Great Britain, USA, France, China and other world trifles - the axis Germany + Italy + Japan and other European trifles.
        !!!100%!!! rout of axis countries !!!
        World diplomacy of all times and peoples has never known such success and still does not know it! (Do you think Drummer, why in the world press there is so much dirt and misinformation poured on the USSR about the Molotov-Ribentrop Pact ....)
      12. +2
        5 October 2013 22: 38
        Quote: Drummer
        And what is the victory of diplomacy? The fact that the USSR entered the war without a single ally?

        The victory of diplomacy lies in the fact that without a single serious ally (well, do not count the "mighty" Mongolian army as a serious "additional aid"), the USSR entered the war (in general, inevitable) much later than the main "players" and from the positions of much more profitable than those that were before the victory of diplomacy.
        Quote: Drummer
        Prevention of war would be a victory, a good result would be a quick defeat of Germany, delaying a war can only be called a success with big reservations.

        Immediately I remembered the anecdote: - "... it would be so big, but grab some honey ..." ...
        And how would the USSR prevented the war or quickly defeated Germany, in conditions when the main "superpowers" of that time stubbornly attributed the USSR to the objects of politics, and by no means to its subjects, and the first "offended" by Hitler were ready to cut their throats, but not let The Soviets either simply planned aggression against the USSR on the side of their "offender" Hitler.
        Quote: Drummer
        By itself, gaining time would make sense if the Soviet military-industrial complex developed faster than the German one (one could catch up), but in reality it was the other way around - Germany for 1939-41 completely updated the range of main types of weapons, while in the USSR rearmament was only it began.

        That here is not in "V" business, here "PC" had to be at least some sort of set up ... and the army from a hundred thousandth volunteer militia into at least a fit instrument of a big war.
        Quote: Drummer
        The Red Army was also unable to take advantage of the time - as a result of conflicting reforms, growth diseases, and personnel shortages, its combat effectiveness even decreased by 1941.

        It is better to have 10.000 fighters in one division than their own in 100 partisan units. The combat readiness of the Red Army as a whole, by 1941, compared with 1938, increased significantly, despite the sagging level of command personnel - the quantity grew into quality.
      13. +1
        6 October 2013 06: 46
        G. Udarnik, and which states were allies of the USSR at that time? And how did we ruin our relationship with them? USA, France and UK? Those countries that first dreamed of destroying the USSR with the help of Germany, and then dividing them together like a pie. And this treaty of not attack spoiled their entire plan. And now these stupid attacks on Russia are due to anger that did not work out destroy our MOTHERLAND. And people like you help them with your stupid and treacherous thoughts (learn history).
      14. +2
        6 October 2013 21: 36
        I wonder if there could be allies in the USSR at that time AT ALL. England, France or the USA? I do not consider the rest - almost all of Europe was under Germany, the rest under the USA or England. While China did not exist at all, it burned in a civil war and at the same time in a war with the Japanese. Ideologically, the Union was ALWAYS one, with few exceptions.
        I wonder what weapons Germany updated for 39-41? In terms of armaments, the USSR left the Germans far behind (another question is that there was not enough time for development before the war). Or did they not create the "Panther" in the form and likeness of the T-34? Or did they not accept our magnificent F-22? Or did you not experience the power of BM-13 on your own skin? Or did they not eat the earth during the Il-2 raids? And what about the SVT-40? Of course, they also had good examples. We had only our own industry, a start-up, inexperienced and frankly frail in places. The industrial skeleton has been created, but has not yet been overgrown with "meat".
        Stalin hoped to delay the war even at the beginning of 1942, and this was calculated on the regrouping of troops. Entire armies were created and relocated in weeks! This is a daunting task, given the distance, the road network and the transport facilities. Hitler was at times easier in this regard.
        And about the "prepared line of fortifications" - did the Maginot Line help the French a lot? or Mannerheim? URs have lost their combat value. Yes, Brest fought, but it ended up far behind the German lines.
        Our "dim-witted" generals were far from idiots (at least not all).
        The price of victory does not have. She is priceless. Having destroyed the moral foundation of the Victory, Russia will collapse. This is perhaps the only thing that unites us yet.
    2. 225chay
      +5
      5 October 2013 09: 33
      Quote: poccinin
      Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. was a logical victory of Soviet diplomacy. everyone understood that war was inevitable. And it was necessary to take time to rearm the army and navy.

      +++ 1000 want to rewrite History!
      Insolently, the Saxon creatures fed and financed Hitler and incited him against the USSR.
    3. +2
      5 October 2013 10: 41
      Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact

      Let us nevertheless use the official name of the document, and not its pseudonym coined by Westerners.
      1. +2
        5 October 2013 16: 30
        In my opinion, a non-aggression pact with Germany was needed at that time.
    4. sanecc
      0
      5 October 2013 17: 06
      I agree with something.
    5. +4
      5 October 2013 21: 55
      The whole West tries to talk about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, but is silent about the conspiracy with Hitler of France and England in the Sudetenland of the Czech Republic. It was with the consent of England and France that Hitler first occupied the Sudetenland, and then the whole of Czechoslovakia, then Austria followed, and again silence from France and England. The hypocrisy of Western politics is sometimes off scale. All those who consider the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact illegal and contrary to international law are hypocrites, and those who are residents of Russia (members of Memorial and other crap, which starts to get heartburn at the mention of the USSR) are generally enemies of Russia. It is correctly written that now they are trying to rewrite the history of the times of the USSR, showing him as a kind of monster devouring everyone and everything, but they are unlikely to succeed. As long as those who taught history from the textbooks of the USSR, who lived in the USSR and know the history of the country, are still alive, correspondence history will not work.
    6. peter_shchurov
      0
      6 October 2013 21: 05
      And what, the glued tanks in the summer of 1941 greatly helped the Red Army?

      The Germans, I read, strongly respected the Soviet regimental 76-mm guns, the benefit and the ammunition for them
      it was captured in large quantities.
  2. +7
    5 October 2013 08: 16
    The end of the 30's is a complex and controversial time. and blaming Russians alone is somehow ridiculous. In general, then it was not clear against the coalition of which states we had to fight. It may be recalled that the same England seriously planned to carry out air raids on the Baku oil fields, our Western allies all changed, did not go to a direct anti-Hitler alliance, Poland played something in geopolitics, half the Europe gladly fell under the Germans, and to blame everyone Of course, Stalin.
    1. +8
      5 October 2013 09: 51
      FC Skiff
      I will supplement it. England and France did not just plan to strike at the oil fields of Baku and Grozny. Until the German attack on France, there was a concentration of aviation on their Mediterranean bases. Several dozen reconnaissance missions were carried out, aerial photography was carried out. Specific goals are assigned and allocated. The Germans in France seized documents about this operation and mockingly published them in the press.
      By the way. ours also knew about this, and also prepared for retaliatory measures — aerial aerial photography of the air bases from which they were planning to bomb us was also carried out, routes were developed and tested. on which we gathered for them on a return visit.
      And Poland did not just play geopolitics, she planned to seize our territory right up to the Black Sea. First, along with Hitler, and then, since spring 39, along with the Anglofranzusami.
      According to the article.
      The author, of course, is right. But it is bewildering that she is trying not to notice that at present the attitude and policies of the country's leadership are the opposite of those that were in 1989 under the Elbon. Our thought, and behind that, the humpback and the ebon came to recognize a lot of things and the pact and Katyn .... Comrade Yakovlev, by the way, seriously suspected that he was an enemy agent-Humpbacked ordered to stop development when the KGB predictor stuck to him .. .... And now we have practically moved away from the policy of concessions — it was a cardinal change in our position that prevented the European Court of Human Rights from last year in satisfying the Poles’s claims that we were guilty of the deaths of their gendarmes, officers, besiegers and other war criminals who were shot whether the Germans in 41 in the Goat Mountains (later the Poles named the place of destruction of Katyn. although to this village there is quite far away, I just liked the name :)))) After Pu's Munich speech, the concessions in these matters ended completely and irrevocably.
      1. +2
        5 October 2013 12: 08
        But what about the recognition of the execution of Poles in Katyn by Medvedev and Putin?)))) Nothing has changed since the EBN ..
        1. +3
          5 October 2013 15: 53
          Snoop
          I don’t know about the bear, I have not heard. but Putin was forced to talk about it while dancing on Polish bones. which the Poles were stalking in Katyn and later. when Kaczynski was killed, Pu didn’t say that we were guilty, he acknowledged the tragedy, but there was something bukhtel that they all suffered, I don’t remember exactly - but imagine that moment. All of Poland stood on its ears, there was a powerful rush that we wrote it off, on the other hand, since there was a Kaczyński gang on the plane - Russophobes closest to him, moderate Polish parties had a chance to seize power (it happened). Moderate Polish parties exhorted their populations, saying that the Russians were not to blame, they mourn with us that something was past. we must live today and build good neighborly relations.
          Or would you like Pu to send them to hell, in a word, enthroning the surviving pathological Russophobe Kaczynski to the throne?
          Putin acted as a politician. And I remind you, it was during Vova that the position of our state changed dramatically during Vova, the European Court refused to satisfy a package of dozens of Polish lawsuits, which would then be a precedent. So please look deeper.
      2. +3
        5 October 2013 16: 40
        Quote: smile
        which the Germans shot in the 41 year in the Goat Mountains

        I got tired of explaining this to my Polish grandfather. Why shoot the Poles near Smolensk, if in Siberia there are a lot of secluded places where they still would not have been found. And there is no need to spend ammunition, they would gobble up each other.
        But they believe Goebbels, but we do not. Yes, it is understandable Goebbels "flashed his skates", with him bribes are smooth. And from Russia I want to shake the loot.
    2. Ulan
      +4
      5 October 2013 11: 36
      Do not forget about the tension in the East. There was a real threat of war on two fronts.
      In the west against the European coalition, the composition of which was unclear and in the east against Japan.
  3. Admiral 013
    +4
    5 October 2013 08: 26
    Disgraced the same way? Full der.mo! Everyone knew that there would be a war and each prepared in his own way. The USSR was looking for allies in the west and it seemed to work out, but Czechoslovakia was given to Hitler to be torn to pieces and the indecision of the Western countries decided everything, they agreed that you just need to feed the brazen beast without worrying about the consequences.
    1. Ulan
      +6
      5 October 2013 10: 25
      This is not indecision, it is a fully conscious and clearly pursued policy.
  4. +9
    5 October 2013 08: 34
    At that time, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin published an article in the Polish press - Gazeta Wyborcza, which many Russian media quoted. Let us cite excerpts from it: “... Without any doubt, we can fully condemn the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, concluded in August 1939.
    Excuse me, but are there any doubts? For whom are such confessions? Which obviously are not good for us? We, as a Country, have nothing to blame!
    But a year earlier, France and England signed a well-known treaty with Hitler in Munich, destroying all hopes of creating a united front against fascism. ”
    Yes, they have already picked it up with this "Munich"! Why do not they remember the "Non-aggression Pact" between Poland and Germany (Pilsudski-Hitler Pact) of January 26, 1934? The Franco-German Declaration on Non-Aggression, dated December 6, 1938? The French politician Paul Reynaud wrote about the results of these negotiations: “... the impression was that from now on German policy would be aimed at combating Bolshevism. The Reich made it clear that he had a desire for expansion in an eastern direction ... ". The Anglo-German Declaration of 1938, a declaration of non-aggression signed by British Prime Minister N. Chamberlain and German leader A. Hitler on September 30, 1938 in Munich immediately after the conclusion of the Munich Agreement of 1938. All these" declarations " In essence, treaties gave Hitler carte blanche for hostile actions against the USSR. In short. They shouldn't try. They would shut up. We are not to blame for anyone, for nothing! We have no "national shame"! We defended ourselves as best we could! And all these crying Europiodes, let them go through the forest, fields and swamps!
    1. +6
      5 October 2013 09: 03
      Quote: Be proud.
      “... Without any doubt, we can justifiably condemn the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, concluded in August 1939.

      Vova, as always, in her repertoire, both ours and yours.
    2. +5
      5 October 2013 09: 30
      Here you are, the ready President of Russia!
      Victor is much more oriented in politics and law. laws than a "sun-faced patriot" Vova .... And how the media are presented ...
      Well, the media understands why the "figure" of the Resident is more stupid and the more he rests in Sochi with gymnasts, they are better ...
      They will get more on dubious privatization deals ...
      More People will be deceived, robbed, killed ..... (Russian People)
      Then they will deal with the President as they know how)))))
      A fool ...... that repents for the shots of the Poles in Katyn (with German ammunition))) condemns the Ingenious and only builder of the Country, whom Vovik is betraying ..... (with all his might)))

      Fools in power ... on the Roads of Fate)))
      When is Victoria waiting for us ???
    3. 0
      5 October 2013 10: 04
      Gordey
      Everything is simple here. Vova then tried to establish relations with the Russophobic government of Poland, which unleashed at that time unbridled Russophobian hysteria, which was not similar to modern Poland ... it was only in the period from 1918 to 39 years. they say you don’t need to tear up the past, we are all not without sin. In such a situation, calling a spade a spade in plain text means causing a storm of indignation of the entire Polish population. By the way, a hysteria broke out over his appeal, but so on. I note that there were enough Poles who took his appeal positively — I spoke with the Poles at that time — many agreed — well, they say, everything was not without sin — that is, the goal was partially achieved, so it was an excellent POLITICAL move.
      Of course, this will also distort me, but such is the diplomatic language - and so it was already a breakthrough, if we compare it with the position of the USSR in the late period and, especially, the Elbon, when we recognized our crime and sprinkled ashes on our heads as soon as possible .... and impossibility. So that Vova turned out to be a great patriot than the leadership of the USSR.
      1. +1
        5 October 2013 14: 26
        Quote: smile
        so it was a great POLITICAL move.

        It reminds the actions of a prostitute - I’ll give it here, I’ll give it there too, but I don’t need it in the ass. AND wassat once in the ass did not give, well done.
        1. +2
          5 October 2013 16: 00
          Ingvar 72
          This resembles the actions of a normal politician who defends the interests of his country through diplomatic methods. If you look at some of the figures who criticize him and compare with Vova, in your terminology they are only suitable for a brothel for passive bestiality .... and then, the country benefits from this-zero. But Pu, by his statement, has disposed a part of the Poles to himself and did not allow the pathological Russophobe Kaczynski to come to power, if this is not good, then what is good?
          1. +2
            5 October 2013 16: 29
            Quote: smile
            If you look at some of the figures who criticize him and compare with Vova, in your terminology they are only suitable as a brothel for passive bestiality ....

            Wow... belay I did not expect such ingenuity from you. But you are right, everything is relative. laughing
            1. +1
              5 October 2013 17: 17
              Ingvar
              And then! :))) Thank. + :)))
              :))) I just try to keep abreast of the latest European realities :))) I almost got mad when I found out that there are such people in Holland and Germany ... :))) By the way, the local animal defenders are very indignant at this, they are protesting, distribute relevant leaflets with touching photos of animals and angry texts ... :))) So, I didn’t have to invent anything ... :)))
  5. +11
    5 October 2013 08: 39
    Abram asks Joni.
    A: Is black a color? D: Color.
    A: Is white the color? D: Color.
    A: You see, Vanya, I sold you a color TV.

    Russia has nothing to repent of before the world. If there is any fault, then she is in front of her people, and not of Russia, but of some figures. And we will deal with them ourselves.

    MOTHER cannot be guilty and not her children give her to scold.
  6. +3
    5 October 2013 08: 48
    “Russia” with its richest reserves, and of course its territory, did not let almost all of Europe and America sleep peacefully! And nobody wanted to get involved with Russia! but then the devil jumped out of the snuffbox hitler.nu and then you all know about small britain, americosia, italy and the like. and how it all ended! and there are still many black spots in history, and untrue! hi
    1. +1
      5 October 2013 10: 08
      Far East
      Hitler did not jump out like a devil out of a snuffbox - he was raised and nurtured by the British and Americans in this snuffbox. Starikov wrote very well about this in the book "Who forced Hitler to attack Stalin" .... Although I do not like Starikov because he became a galimous populist, barely got into politics, but this book is perhaps one of the best about who and how he raised Hitler, even though there are a couple of dubious conclusions ...
      1. +1
        5 October 2013 11: 01
        Quote: smile
        smile(

        Vladimir, all right, I just did not reveal the essence of my thoughts! you corrected me good hi
        1. +1
          5 October 2013 13: 22
          Far East
          Sergey, let’s better add, rather than correct. I like it more. :)))
          1. 0
            6 October 2013 02: 57
            Quote: smile
            Sergey, let’s better add, rather than correct. I like it more.

            OK. hi
  7. +5
    5 October 2013 09: 00
    but why do the zadapodus not remember their shame (agreed to shame out of greed?) when they surrendered Czechoslovakia to Hitler? How did the Czechs rob the Czechs arm in arm with Hitler? of course, we are no stranger to the selectivity of the memory of the "civilized", but they went to the dupa
    1. +1
      5 October 2013 10: 12
      andrei332809
      I think the Chesi refused our help when they realized that France and England, their masters, would not come to help. and they twisted their hands ... because we could not get to Czechoslovakia without the consent of Poland. which catfish ground on Czechs. By the way, as a result of the capture of Teszyn, the industrial potential of Poland grew by a third.
    2. Ulan
      +5
      5 October 2013 10: 38
      And who is the most screaming about the equal responsibility of Germany and the USSR?
      The Anglo-Saxons, who brought Hitler to power and nourished this beast with well-defined goals.
      Then the Poles, who were going to share the USSR with Hitler and aspire to Ukraine. Something about this they are keeping quiet today.
      They also contributed a lot to prevent the emergence of a united front in Europe against Hitler.
      Who else? Balts, now glorifying Nazi criminals.
      Who else are all Romania, Hungary, who were allies of Hitler, who, together with the Nazis, killed, robbed and raped on our land and only in time jumped miraculously escaped the Nuremberg Tribunal.
      Good "judges"!
      And these fascist mongrels, today they are trying to shift from a sick head to a healthy one.
      We do not have a true national leader capable of protecting our history, our fathers and grandfathers, our truth, not letting us humiliate and rebuff any bastard.
  8. +2
    5 October 2013 09: 21
    from the Don.
    that the muzzles are turned back by the writers and their customers when it comes to: the Munich agreement:! How did this shobla insist; exceptional!
  9. Valery Neonov
    +3
    5 October 2013 09: 33
    Russia has nothing to repent of before the world- and more .. WORLD BEFORE RUSSIA, USSR, RUSSIA MUST Apologize! Yes soldier hi
    Tired with their inclinations to introduce their "tsennosti" .... yeah. stop
  10. pahom54
    +1
    5 October 2013 09: 38
    I quote: ... "Today, the urgent task is to restore Russia's authority in the world and strengthen Russian statehood. With a powerful liberal lobby in the country's political establishment, this is not easy to do, but it is necessary ..." ...
    No matter how you look at history, they always try to mix Russia with shit ... Wouldn’t it turn out that in another eleven years Russia will be declared responsible for the appearance of Hitler and for conceiving the arson of World War II ??? The British are rolling a barrel at us, but they themselves don’t remember how much nasty things they did with their diplomacy ??? And I’m silent about the USA.
    So, the phrase cited at the beginning is urgent at the present stage of development of both world and Russian. I can only emphasize: first of all, it is necessary to carry out in my own country, among my people, but the opinion of Western Moseks can also be pooh .. eh ...
  11. Ulan
    +5
    5 October 2013 09: 54
    Excellent article. It would be yes to the leadership of Russia in the ears.
    Undoubtedly, the conclusion of the "Non-Aggression Pact (this is the correct name of the pact) is a diplomatic and political victory of the USSR, which made it possible to gain additional time and prevent the formation of a united western front against the USSR.
    The West outplayed itself. Trying in every possible way to direct Hitler’s aggression against the USSR, they foiled the signing of the Soviet-French-English treaty to counter German aggression in Europe. Moreover, Poland also put its feet to this.
    As a result, driving the USSR into a hopeless situation, the Western countries were forced to enter into an agreement with Germany.
    With this step, the USSR violated the plans of the West and outplayed it.
    It was not for nothing that Churchill called the conclusion of the pact "Britain's largest diplomatic defeat of the 20th century."
    As regards the entry of the Red Army into the territory of western Ukraine and Western Belarus, let the Poles thank their allies, who set them up and brazenly threw them, feeding Hitler.
    The same Churchill said about the introduction of the Red Army - by this step the USSR practically created a second front against Germany. During the French campaign, Hitler was forced to keep more than 20 divisions against the USSR.
    1. +1
      5 October 2013 10: 46
      Ulan
      It was a cardinal change in the policy of the country's leadership in comparison with the perestroika of the USSR and the Elbon period that enabled the appearance of such articles. So. that with the ears of our leadership everything is fine now ... if people like Dimon are not outweighed there. The claims to Putin in this regard are very small, and the merits are undeniable - it is precisely his merit that people like pork land ceased to form the attitude of the people in the media - now there are much more reverse materials, people are recovering from unconsciousness. And to be honest, you can’t ignore this.
      1. Ulan
        +2
        5 October 2013 11: 44
        I don’t argue that a turn has been outlined. But we are maximalists, I want everything at once, especially after almost 20 years of humiliation and timelessness.
        Yes, articles began to appear, but at the same time, the opposite side continued its destructive activities.
        1. +1
          5 October 2013 13: 24
          Ulan
          Well then. that I want everything at once, it’s yeah ... I also want to. And further. to burn a spotted one with Chubais at the stake, like godly Satanic offspring ... :))) I will not argue with you, because I agree.
  12. poccinin
    +3
    5 October 2013 10: 03
    Quote: Drummer
    And what is the victory of diplomacy? The fact that the USSR entered the war without a single ally? Prevention of war would be a victory, a good result would be a quick defeat of Germany, delaying a war can only be called a success with big reservations.
    By itself, gaining time would make sense if the Soviet military-industrial complex developed faster than the German one (one could catch up), but in reality it was the other way around - Germany for 1939-41 completely updated the range of main types of weapons, while in the USSR rearmament was only it began.
    The Red Army was also unable to take advantage of it - as a result of contradictory reforms, growth diseases and personnel starvation, its combat effectiveness even decreased by 1941. The regrouping of troops from traditional places of deployment to the freshly joined western regions of Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states added problems - everyone was busy settling out, living conditions sharply worsened (even former Polish prisons adapted to barracks, but many lived in the field), and finally the prepared line of fortifications was abandoned, they didn’t have time to build a new one.
    These are only the simplest, immediate consequences of the PMR, not to mention the decline in the international image, spoiled relations with probable allies, and so on.
    RUSSIA still has no allies.
    1. kaktus
      +1
      5 October 2013 11: 49
      two allies, as always - the army and navy soldier
    2. Shogun23
      +3
      5 October 2013 15: 17
      And we don't really need them, because in most wars, our "allies" ended up throwing us hard, either leaving us to fight alone (as the Austrian women did), or in the end were ready to attack Russia, if only she did not become stronger than it was (there are enough examples here, take at least the Napoleonic Wars)
      1. +2
        5 October 2013 16: 15
        Quote: Shogun23
        or in the end they were ready to attack Russia, if only it did not become stronger than it was (there are enough examples here, take at least the Napoleonic wars)

        Napoleon had no doubt that the Austrian emperor Franz and the Prussian king Friedrich Wilhelm III, to save whom the Russian soldiers had shed so much blood in 1805, 1806, 1807, to no avail, will certainly betray Russia and help her to smash. Nevertheless, Friedrich Wilhelm III surprised Napoleon: it turned out that the Prussian king was not only ready to speak out against Russia together with Napoleon, but already in advance he was asking his imperial majesty very much that his imperial majesty bestowed him upon the victory over Russia the entire Baltic region to Pskov .

        Napoleon almost never laughed in his lifetime, and even very rarely smiled. But then the sullen emperor cheered up. “However, what a great scoundrel this Prussian king is all the same!” Napoleon said laughing heartily when his minister, the Duke of Bassano, informed him of Friedrich-Wilhelm III’s most comprehensive request for the Baltic states. Napoleon wrote a sarcastic resolution on the report: “What about the oath over the tomb of Frederick II?” It reminded us of how in 1805 Frederick William III and the Russian Tsar exchanged an oath of eternal love and friendship in the Potsdam Mausoleum. Friedrich-Wilhelm was ordered to fulfill what they say. Napoleon did not even deign to answer about the Baltic region. And the king respectfully fell silent.
        E.V. Tarle "Napoleon's Invasion"
      2. +1
        5 October 2013 18: 14
        Quote: Shogun23
        And we don't really need them, because in most wars, our "allies" ended up throwing us hard, either leaving us to fight alone (as the Austrian women did), or in the end were ready to attack Russia, if only she did not become stronger than it was (there are enough examples here, take at least the Napoleonic Wars)

        Take Napoleonics. And take the Russian-Turkish war of Catherine the Second.
        And then we somehow forget that the miraculous heroic army of Suvorov, fanned by legends, in the battles of Fokshany, Rymnik, Novi and Trebia consisted of two-thirds of the Austrians.
        1. 0
          5 October 2013 18: 53
          Quote: Drummer
          two-thirds consisted of Austrians.

          Great commander. That's just without Suvorov, the Austrians often robbed Lyuli from the same Turks.
        2. Shogun23
          +1
          5 October 2013 19: 25
          And you read the moment why these same Austrians fought along with Suvorov (for example, at the same Fokshan)? And also remind, why did Suvorov go through the Alps? Or why didn’t he head to the south of Italy? And then why didn’t they go to fight revolutionary France?
          1. -1
            5 October 2013 21: 31
            So there are two versions - patriotic (the Austrians betrayed) and not so (Suvorov stuck out in Italy for too long, regardless of the general situation).
            1. Shogun23
              +1
              5 October 2013 21: 33
              And what in the end turned out to be a complete cleansing of Italy from the influence of France, do you remember?
  13. +3
    5 October 2013 11: 11
    It is not surprising that in a state that deliberately destroys, despite public protests, the opinions of experts and professionals, a system of not only civilian, but also military education, a considerable part of the youth appears, which takes myths about the occupiers for granted.

    Well, our schoolchildren study history from textbooks from Soros. In these textbooks there are no battles of Stalingrad and Kursk, what will they teach? And there’s no one to ask for this outrage. Vovochka is good. He defended Snowden.
    1. pahom54
      +2
      5 October 2013 11: 36
      Well, as far as I understand, "Little Johnny" has already personally tackled this problem with history textbooks, and I think that something good in terms of ideology and patriotism will come out. After all, he has already created a commission to review and admit new history textbooks to the educational process.
      1. kaktus
        +1
        5 October 2013 11: 51
        well, historians, hold on! wink
        1. +1
          5 October 2013 13: 26
          kaktus
          I would put it differently, with a well-known quote: In turn ssss ... obachkiny children in line! :)))
  14. -1
    5 October 2013 11: 44
    Little Johnny is not far from the mind but chatty unmeasured!
    1. +1
      5 October 2013 13: 30
      NORILCHANIN
      Even the most ardent enemies of Vovochkin, who have brains, well, at least a drop of water - like Novodvorskaya and all sorts of McCains - do not deny that everything is in order with his head ... and you, apparently, have let us down ... my condolences. :)))
  15. +1
    5 October 2013 12: 24
    Actually, there can be no complaints against the USSR. The same Poland entered into a pact with Germany on no attack back in 1934 ...
  16. GastaClaus69
    0
    5 October 2013 12: 33
    September 1 is the anniversary of the start of the Second World War. Russia has become the undoubted and main winner in it. It was she who knew that unattainable height, to which no state of the world had ever risen, having defeated the evil of the world - fascism. This victory was so visible and daunting that it does not fit into the ideological schemes of the instigators of the Russian catastrophe.

    Everything is clear, further reading is pointless!
  17. +6
    5 October 2013 12: 48
    Why England, Poland, France, Finland, etc. it is possible to conclude an agreement with Hitler, but not the USSR? Why do not remember our agreement with Japan in April 1941? Maybe because the first one did not suit them, and the second vice versa?
  18. vahatak
    -5
    5 October 2013 13: 16
    The pact gave the USSR good chances to prepare for war from both a military and diplomatic point of view. Another thing is that Stalin managed to quarrel with Finland and Romania for almost two years of respite, adding to the Germans allies from among the neighbors of the USSR, which would not have contributed to the growth of defense.
    It can be compared with the policies of Alexander the First, who reconciled with Sweden and Turkey before the attack of Napoleon, protecting his flanks.
    1. Shogun23
      +2
      5 October 2013 15: 14
      Both Finland and Romania, until the age of 39 were not friends of the USSR. But Napoleon, before that, allowed Russia to fight against Sweden and Turkey, promising his neutrality.
      1. +3
        5 October 2013 15: 44
        Quote: Shogun23
        And Napoleon before that, allowed Russia to fight against Sweden and Turkey, promising its neutrality

        Who told you that?
        ... Kutuzov suddenly managed to make peace with the Turks. Napoleon did not find words to characterize the unprecedented stupidity of the Turks who made peace with Russia just when the Russian Empire was threatened with an invasion from the West and it would have done anything to free its Danube army as soon as possible
        ... Napoleon offered Bernadotte Finland - both that part of Sweden that was conquered by the Russians in 1808, and that which Sweden had lost under Peter I. But Alexander I offered more than Napoleon, Bernadotte: all of Norway. True, Norway belonged to Alexander I just as little as Napoleon did Finland, but Bernadotte knew that both proposals were quite real. Bernadotte, without hesitation, preferred an alliance with Alexander I, and not only because Norway is richer and better than Finland, but also because Russia is a constant neighbor with whom Sweden has lived for centuries and will live for centuries, and an alliance with Napoleon is an unreliable matter, and Napoleon, without the slightest difficulty, at the very turn of his world politics, would surrender Sweden to Alexander I.
        E.V. Tarle "Napoleon's Invasion"
        1. Shogun23
          0
          5 October 2013 16: 02
          You do not forget about the Tilsit world.
          1. +1
            5 October 2013 16: 26
            Joining the Continental blockade did not imply vassal relations between Russia and France, and the war with the Turks began in 1806.
            1. Shogun23
              0
              5 October 2013 16: 37
              And no one spoke about vassal relations, but do not forget that Turkey and France at that time had allied relations, which Napoleon refused in Tilsit.
      2. vahatak
        -2
        5 October 2013 16: 29
        Even if Napoleon “allowed” Russia (sounds ridiculous, but what can you do) to fight with someone, then it was just in his interests, but Napoleon did not need peace with these states at all.
        According to the secret resolution of the Nonaggression Pact, Hitler also agreed that the USSR should expand its borders, which was done, so that the situation was identical except for the aforementioned detail: Alexander turned enemies into neutrals, and Stalin made enemies from neutral neighbors.
  19. +4
    5 October 2013 13: 21
    If there wasn’t this pact, then there would be another intervention of the Entente against the USSR, if they would have attacked our country together
  20. +3
    5 October 2013 14: 01
    In order to evaluate the non-aggression pact, one quote from Churchill, a highly realistic step, is enough to not discuss further.
    1. vahatak
      0
      6 October 2013 14: 17
      Why not discuss it? After this pact, the USSR and Germany received a common border and war became inevitable. It did not occur to the "genius" Stalin to use Poland as a buffer.
  21. Shogun23
    +2
    5 October 2013 14: 32
    Those who condemn the pact of 23 August 1939 need to ask one simple question: "What should have been done then?"
    1. vahatak
      -1
      6 October 2013 14: 20
      It was necessary to attack Germany in September 1939. Part of Poland would have been taken anyway, but at that time the Germans were not ready for a war on two fronts, and the French were still in service.
      1. Misantrop
        +3
        6 October 2013 21: 27
        Quote: vahatak
        It was necessary to attack Germany in September 1939.
        Is it a conscious provocation or an inborn cretinism? Even in the current version of the story, are Russia trying to blind the aggressor, and in case of an attack in the 39th year, and even through adjacent (far from friendly) countries? To give occasion to England and the United States to speak on the German side?
        1. vahatak
          -1
          6 October 2013 21: 48
          Personally, I do not care what they say about the USSR in the West. I do not like the communists, but this does not mean that I like the stupid propaganda of their enemies.
          And in September 1939, Andlia had already declared war on Germany, and for the United States, Japan was the main enemy, so it was unlikely that they could support the Germans.
          1. Misantrop
            +1
            6 October 2013 23: 16
            Quote: vahatak
            And in September 1939, Andlia had already declared war on Germany
            Do you feel the difference between the concepts of "declare war" and "fight"? Until there are serious battles and territorial conquests, it is not difficult to conclude a truce. England had centuries of experience in this ...
            Quote: vahatak
            Japan was the main adversary
            Until the attack of Pearl Harbor in 1941, the United States had no idea about this "main enemy". So, in pursuit of real money, the war in Europe would have climbed easily
            1. vahatak
              -1
              6 October 2013 23: 38
              I know about the bad character of the British, but do not exaggerate. A separate world is not so easy to conclude. even after the defeat in France, they did not agree to this, and all because the contradictions with Germany were unsolvable.
              At the expense of the Americans, too, I have no illusions. Yes, they were chasing money and that was why they were in no hurry to go to war, wanting to profitably trade with everyone, and a war on the side of Germany against France and England was practically impossible.
      2. Shogun23
        +1
        7 October 2013 08: 20
        Are you really that naive or just kidding? In your opinion, the Franco-British would have entered the war (they entered, and not just declared) on the side of the USSR? Yes, this would have come true what they had been preparing Germany for since the beginning of the 30s - the war of fascism and communism, and then the "democratic countries" would have put things in order in these countries "by giving their peoples freedom"
  22. Stasi
    +4
    5 October 2013 15: 00
    The reason for the West's anger at the so-called Molotov-Ribentropp Pact is understandable. During the era of the Romanovs, Russia often took part in wars that had nothing to do with its national interests, but which benefited the interests of the West, mainly England. The British even had this saying: "Fight for the interests of Britain to the last Russian." In the First World War, we saved France, there was the famous Brusilov breakthrough near Verdun, thanks to which the Germans did not take Paris even then. What did Russia get from this? Nothing. The French themselves did not even say "thank you", they prefer to forget about this service to Russia. By pandering to Hitler, allowing him to violate the Treaty of Versailles, the West hoped that the Russian troops would again face the Germans and again the Russians would fight for Western interests. But Stalin turned out to be much smarter and more far-sighted. Having concluded a non-aggression pact with Hitler, he forced the West to independently clean up the mess that the West had brewed, and this treaty also gave our country a respite from the war. This is precisely what the West cannot forgive us, the fact that we did not fight again for its interests, but observed our own. There are simply no other reasons for claims against us and cannot be.
    1. Shogun23
      +2
      5 October 2013 15: 10
      Quote: Stasi
      The reason for the West’s anger at the so-called Molotov-Ribentropp Pact is understandable.

      I would say that this is not so much anger as an attempt (so far, unfortunately, quite successful) to expose the USSR to be the culprit of the war, thereby transferring all responsibility for its preparation for this very war (here you and Hitler's financing, permission for the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine , training the Wehrmacht (and not the Reichswehr) for money and on the bases of "democratic countries"), complete passivity in Germany's diplomatic crimes (violation of the points of the Versailles-Washington system), for each of which they could "strangle" Germany with sanctions and other methods of political pressure.
    2. lexe
      +2
      6 October 2013 01: 37
      Fight for the interests of Britain to the last Russian. "

      I think that after 1917. another winged thought might well have been born:
      To fight for the interests of the Russian Empire to the last German and Frenchman. Verden will not let you lie.
      Another 100 years ago in 1812. the French burned Moscow! And the Crimean war? also with French participation ...
      So Tsar Nicholas 2 was oh, how not simple ...
      Stalin repeated the path of our tsar in European affairs, but did not take into account that great historical decisions were made only once. The French and Germans did not begin to muttise each other again, they became wiser.
      And the West is afraid of only one country, the Russian Empire and possibly even China.
    3. vahatak
      0
      6 October 2013 14: 26
      Quote: Stasi
      was the famous Brusilovsky breakthrough near Verdun thanks to which the Germans still did not take Paris.

      Are you confusing anything?
      Quote: Stasi
      The West hoped that the Russian troops would again clash with the Germans and again the Russians would fight for Western interests. But Stalin was much smarter and more far-sighted. Having concluded a non-aggression pact with Hitler, he forced the West to independently shed the porridge that the West had brewed.

      Actually, the Russians did the same with the Germans, and much more blood was shed than in the WWII, and the French and British had fewer losses compared to the same WWI, although they were among the winners, so the USSR was fighting for the interests of the West in WWII.
      1. Stasi
        +2
        6 October 2013 17: 51
        I don’t confuse, the Brusilovsky breakthrough forced the German command to transfer troops advancing on Paris to liquidate the breakthrough. The Western allies really had smaller losses compared with the Soviet army, do not forget that the Germans threw their best units on the Eastern Front, the bulk of the German military machine was concentrated there. Another reason for the smaller losses of the Westerners is that Hitler seriously did not want to fight the West. The fact that the West used us to break the German car is understandable. The main goal of the Great Patriotic War is the desire to defend the freedom and independence of your country, that is what you should always know and remember.
        1. vahatak
          -3
          6 October 2013 18: 35
          The Germans stepped on Paris more than once, but they didn’t come closer than 70 km, and the French stopped them, who (SUDDENLY) also know how to defend their homeland, and according to your logic, if it weren’t for the French, the Germans would have thrown all their forces east and They would have taken Petrograd with Moscow, and the Russians didn’t even say thanks to them.
          Quote: Stasi
          The main goal of the Great Patriotic War is the desire to defend the freedom and independence of their country

          And the occupation of Eastern Europe and the establishment of puppet regimes there, probably the secondary task of the Great Patriotic War?
          1. Stasi
            +1
            6 October 2013 19: 52
            You turn everything upside down. As for control over Eastern Europe - in your opinion, you should not go to finish off the enemy in his lair, but expel from your land there and stay there, waiting for the enemy to lick his wounds from defeats and invade again using newly invented weapons capable of inflicting heavy losses and nullifying all achieved victory? After the war, the USSR invested enormous funds and forces in the restoration of Eastern Europe, until the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and the USSR, the Eastern Europeans lived very well, better than the inhabitants of the USSR. You do not want to say that the West, having taken control of Western Europe, has imposed its regimes there, but for some reason no one talks about Western occupation.
            1. vahatak
              -2
              6 October 2013 20: 35
              I'm not flipping anything. I wrote somewhere that the USSR should not have finished off the enemy? I just didn’t have to stay in Eastern Europe for 45 years. Or do you think that they themselves elected communists to the government there, and banned everyone else? Economic assistance can be provided without huge armies in other countries, and no one forced the USSR to help the Warsaw Pact countries, they could be allowed to use the Marshall Plan, but in this case they would have been infused with the USA, which the USSR could not allow. That was precisely the purpose of the USSR in the war: to increase its influence in the world and to put where its puppets could be.
              The fact that the West did the same only says that all the great powers are the same. I repeat: THE SAME, that is, the USSR is NOTHING BETTER THAN OTHERS, and even Germany, but without the Nazis.
              1. +2
                6 October 2013 20: 50
                Quote: vahatak
                I just didn’t have to stay in Eastern Europe for 45 years.

                Does the US need to stay? Does the name Ramstein tell you nothing?
                Quote: vahatak
                The fact that the West did the same only says that all the great powers are the same. I repeat: THE SAME, that is, the USSR is NOTHING BETTER THAN OTHERS, and even Germany, but without the Nazis.

                I draw your attention to the fact that the Anglo-Saxons, for example, destroyed Native Americans in the United States, in addition, New Zealanders and Australians, the Dutch were going to destroy the Russians, but the Russians did not even destroy anyone by defeating! And you have the audacity to equate us with the killers, did your conscience go to shit? The Russians are not killers, and not robbers, unlike the Germans and Anglo-Saxons praised by you, ................................. .......
                1. vahatak
                  0
                  6 October 2013 21: 25
                  I said somewhere that Americans are better than Russians or Anglo-Saxons who aren’t killing Americans ???
                  I know that Russians are not killers, calm down.
                  And states are not nations. And the communists are not equal to Russian. Someone who, but I know about it.
                  Nazi little man like me. This is something new. I and Nazism. it’s good that I have a sense of emor, otherwise I would have to write in response to insults.
                  1. 0
                    6 October 2013 21: 36
                    Quote: Setrac
                    Setrac

                    Quote: vahatak
                    vahatak


                    I give you both warnings against attempts at mutual insults.
      2. Misantrop
        +2
        6 October 2013 21: 23
        Quote: vahatak
        Russians still fought with the Germans, and much more blood was shed than in the WWII, and the French and British had less losses compared to the same WWI
        Maybe it's enough to bear the blizzard about the losses? Do google it before uttering such "truths". WHAT EXACTLY are Russian losses, fighting or civilian population? In Europe, the Germans overthrew the warring regimes with them, including industry with workers in the structure of the Reich. And the Germans went to Russia, clearing the living space under the resettlement of their race. Or is it the same in your opinion?
        1. vahatak
          -1
          6 October 2013 21: 50
          So the conversation was not about military operations, but that the British wanted to play off Russians and Germans so that they would kill each other, so I wrote that they achieved their goal. Where is my mistake?
          1. Misantrop
            +2
            6 October 2013 23: 08
            Quote: vahatak
            but that the British wanted to pit Russians and Germans
            Is this news for anyone at least? Germany was equipped, armed and set against the USSR, feeding half of Europe under this business. Moreover, the strongest countries of those years, acting in concert, as a single collective. And now they begin to tell us here that the USSR is to blame and that it was necessary to quarrel all among themselves and defeat with little blood and on foreign territory. Moreover, it will not be a world aggressor. Talleyrands, pancake, homegrown
            1. vahatak
              -1
              6 October 2013 23: 16
              Quote: Misantrop
              Is this news for anyone at least?

              I didn’t deny it, just my interlocutor said that the British succeeded in the WWI, and in 1939 Stalin outwitted them. And I believe that this success is somewhat dubious, because in the end, the Reich in the Soviet Union still bleed, and there were more losses than in the First World War.
              1. Misantrop
                +2
                6 October 2013 23: 26
                Quote: vahatak
                there were more losses than in the first world.
                I repeat once again, the bulk of the losses accounted for SLAUGHTER, that is, to the losses of the PEACEFUL population, systematically destroyed by the occupation administration. If the Soviet Union behaved in the same way during the offensive, then half of Europe would be uninhabited
                1. vahatak
                  0
                  6 October 2013 23: 42
                  and who says that all the losses were military? here it is not the military aspect that is important, but the political, and the political weight of the state (which the British wanted to reduce) is affected both by the number of people and the losses in the economy that you don’t even consider, although I mean ALL losses.
  23. +4
    5 October 2013 15: 03
    The trouble of our rulers is to interpret historical events in conjunctural considerations.
    And the reality was and is
    The Soviet Union won the Great Patriotic War!
    It is not otherwise.
    And there is nothing to rewrite the history of the country of the winner.
  24. +2
    5 October 2013 15: 42
    The fact that we signed this pact gave us the following:
    1. Preparation for evacuation to the rear of their enterprises. When the enterprises were evacuated, thanks to this, they started work faster.
    2. Preparing the population for war. Gas masks for civilians, regular civil defense exercises.
    3. Japan refused to fight us (although of course the pact was not the only reason for this).
    4. Zatad’s hands were tied, because you couldn’t call us bad guys.
    In the event of a preemptive strike, everyone would attack the USSR, including Britain and America. At the beginning of the war, America set conditions for the use of various weapons. So the pact certainly played a positive role. Well, now it’s just such a time when we are only going to defend our interests in the world. Therefore, we have to go to such diplomatic deflections. I hope that soon and on this issue we will speak as it is, directly.
    1. namejs
      -3
      6 October 2013 00: 52
      Quote: Zomanus
      1. Preparation for evacuation to the rear of their enterprises. When the enterprises were evacuated, thanks to this, they started work faster.


      Tell me please, wouldn’t it be better if the USSR stopped supplying strategic resources to Germany? After the economic blockade of the French and British, the German blockade on the part of the USSR would have weakened much more strongly.

      If you disagree, why?
      1. +3
        6 October 2013 01: 19
        Quote: Namejs
        If you disagree, why?

        Because! For example, there was no blockade from the west, the United States and Germany through third countries traded the entire war.
        1. namejs
          0
          6 October 2013 13: 29
          And what did they sell? A strategic sir or is there coffee and such products?

          Germany at the initial stage of the war was heavily dependent on the import of a whole series of sir.
          1. +3
            6 October 2013 17: 58
            Quote: Namejs
            Germany at the initial stage of the war was heavily dependent on the import of a whole series of sir.

            And we were very dependent on Germany in terms of obtaining new technologies and equipment that the West did not give us ... So trade with Germany at that moment was a completely logical step ...
            1. namejs
              -3
              6 October 2013 21: 27
              So what? Necessity technologies could be developed by oneself (and what exactly are the technologies?). But if the USSR had made a blockade of Germany, for its part, Germany would soon have failed to achieve such successes.
              Well, if the USSR were to pashol to the aid of Polshe in September 1939, then Germany would be quickly defeated together (since Germany was still quite happy with the settlement). Then there would be no world war
              1. +1
                6 October 2013 21: 48
                Quote: Namejs
                So what? Necessity technologies could be developed by oneself (and what exactly are the technologies?)

                Is Latvia able to "develop technologies by itself" (at the moment)? Share the joy of success.
                1. namejs
                  0
                  6 October 2013 22: 07
                  Well, compared Latvia (2 million) and the USSR (about 200 million?).
                  If we talk about our days, then for such Latvia the level of innovation is unsatisfactory. But for Russia, the level of innovation is very bad. This is recognized by Russian politicians and officials.
                  1. +1
                    6 October 2013 22: 29
                    Quote: Namejs
                    If we talk about our days, then for such Latvia the level of innovation is unsatisfactory.

                    You did not quite grasp the essence of the question, but its essence was as follows: Is Latvia able to independently develop technologies without resorting to "borrowing"?
                    1. namejs
                      -1
                      7 October 2013 00: 30
                      Of course it can. For this, there are all the prerequisites, the question is whether the government of Latvia will be on the horizon and will support science enough. So far, the only reason for the low level of innovation is insufficient funding. According to the already beating president of the Latvian Academy of Sciences, Latvia annually loses up to 5 billion lats from the failure to realize its own Britain.
            2. 0
              11 October 2013 07: 40
              The dependence is rather arbitrary - from the moment Hitler came to power and before the Pact, the USSR in the military-technical sphere focused mainly on England, France and the USA. Almost all of our equipment hails from there - Carden-Lloyd, Vickers, Christy, Ford, Douglas, motors - Liberty, Gnome-Ron, Wright-Cyclone, Spain-Suiza and their descendants.
              We didn’t get anything special from the Germans after 1939 (well, the Rheinmetal anti-aircraft guns, which became our 53K, Me-110 as a prototype Pe-2 / Pe-3, something at sea).
        2. vahatak
          -5
          6 October 2013 14: 37
          Quote: Setrac
          US with Germany through third countries traded the entire war

          This is my favorite part. When the USSR trades with Hitler, this is Stalin’s wise decision, and when the United States does the same, they are corrupt creatures that their mother is willing to sell. The main thing is that we have a piece of paper (pact) that complies with all international laws.
          1. +2
            6 October 2013 19: 20
            Quote: vahatak
            This is my favorite part. When the USSR trades with Hitler, this is Stalin’s wise decision, and when the United States does the same, they are corrupt creatures that their mother is willing to sell.

            the difference is that the USSR traded before the war and received vital technologies, the United States - corrupt creatures - traded during the war, and without any need.
            In general, it is strange that a person flying the flag of Armenia is on the side of our enemies. You can immediately see hu from hu. Who is our friend and who is the enemy.
            1. vahatak
              -1
              6 October 2013 20: 41
              The USSR traded with Hitler when he fought with Poland, France, England, and, as everyone here says, was going to fight the USSR, the Pact simply postponed the war, so the war was, and Hitler was the same. you just have to be principled.
              The fact that I condemn the partition of Poland, the war with the Finns, the annexation of Moldova and say that it was necessary to attack Hitler in 1939, makes me an enemy ???????????
              Here you can see hu from hu.
              1. +1
                6 October 2013 20: 53
                Quote: vahatak
                The fact that I condemn the partition of Poland, the war with the Finns, the annexation of Moldova and say that it was necessary to attack Hitler in 1939, makes me an enemy ???????????

                Yes, anti-Russian propaganda makes the propagandist an enemy of Russia and all Russians.
                1. vahatak
                  -2
                  6 October 2013 21: 28
                  Show the words Russia and Russian in my comments. Or do you not distinguish Russians from communists? Personally, I distinguish.
          2. +1
            7 October 2013 01: 22
            Quote: vahatak
            This is my favorite part

            Well, if I like it, I treat it.
            As for individual representatives of large American capital, even in the midst of the US war against the Third Reich, they maintained close ties with him. But, of course, secretly.
            To this day, the vast majority of Americans do not even suspect what role some US companies played during World War II. According to Hiem, the government made a lot of efforts to conceal these facts, moreover, it did this not only during the war, but also after its end.
            This is understandable: after all, millions of British and Americans remembered well the long lines at gas stations and the acute shortage of fuel in the country. Meanwhile, in 1942, Standard Oil Corporation sold it to Germany through neutral Switzerland.
            Citizens of the United States and Great Britain would undoubtedly be outraged to learn that after the events in Pearl Harbor, the Chase Bank had entered into millions of transactions with the enemy in occupied Paris with the full knowledge of the management of this bank in Manhattan. And in France, trucks destined for the German occupation forces were assembled at Ford factories.
            And that’s not all. More details here:http://sunapse.ru/rushistory/Oruzie/Oruzie32.html
      2. +4
        6 October 2013 01: 31
        Quote: Namejs
        If you disagree, why?

        In interstate relations, agreements must be legally sealed, which was done. The prehistory of the Soviet-German trade agreements (we take a critical point for Europe - 1940), had a decade and a half. Even if such relations (trade) were sealed "by merchants "(to be honest, but this is impossible in principle), this is not a reason to violate them. And a unilateral rupture of official State agreements could entail unpredictable consequences. The politicians of that time, and that equal (in the USSR) could not afford this . For a number of reasons, very weighty. Political internal, political external, social internal. Yes, and losing the "face" of the Country, in that situation, was akin to suicide.
        1. namejs
          -3
          6 October 2013 14: 07
          Quote: Be proud.
          legally hold together


          I, as a lawyer, will object to you. Russian is not my happy language because I ask you to judge strictly.


          So, in international law (as in any other), certainties are dominated by the principle on the basis of which international agreements are concluded and so on. Well, for example, audiatur et altera pars (having expanded the second side), ex iniuria ius non oritur (from violation of rights, new rights do not appear) and so on.

          Definition of the principle is stipulated in the League of Nations treaties (to which presoidenilss and the USSR) provide for reducing the risk of new conflicts (quotas on the number of weapons, not contributing to the aggressor, etc.) or at least their escalation.

          What does this mean, if there was any agreement between the USSR and the country to the aggressors, then Moscow would have to abide by the supreme principle and break the agreement and the USSR would remain clean.
          It’s also like everyday life - a contract that is contrary to the law or generally accepted principles automatically expires.

          The USSR did not do so. Well, it will be so, but then it’s not necessary for you to ascribe principle and integrity to track more honestly than others (for example, the same Polsha herself)
          1. +2
            6 October 2013 15: 11
            Quote: Namejs
            Moscow would have to abide by its principle and break the treaty, and the USSR would remain clean.

            It is easy to talk about the past, from a distance of 74 years, having information about the past.
            Quote: Namejs
            - A contract that is contrary to the law or generally accepted principles automatically loses force.

            What law? Weapons were not purchased. To prevent aggression? The League of Nations, in this case, had to whip itself. First of all, Hitler was spawned and promoted by those who later fought with him. The child grew up and sent to a known address, their breadwinners. Generally accepted principles? Heh ... The practice of double standards. Which is used now, using the vague term - "universal human values", "world community", etc. Forgive, but as they say in "high society", this is chees.USSR did not do thatThe USSR acted in a way that was beneficial to the USSR. Someone didn’t like it? These are their problems. I didn’t understand about Poland at all. More details please.
            1. namejs
              -1
              6 October 2013 20: 43
              Quote: Be proud.
              It is easy to talk about the past, from a distance of 74 years, having information about the past.

              an honest act will always be an honest act. I kind of like the principle of international law already otzivalsa


              Quote: Be proud.
              Which law?

              I gave examples of how the legal principles act in international relations and how in civil law
              Quote: Be proud.
              The League of Nations, in this case, had to carve itself.


              Which, of course, happened. The League of the nation had no effective instruments of influence. The most severe punishment was expulsion from the League of the nation, which they also successfully did but only ...

              Quote: Be proud.
              Heh ... The practice of double standards, which is still used now, using the vague term - "universal human values", "world community", etc. Forgive me, but as they say in "high society", this is not what the USSR did.

              Namely so, the USSR as well as others (England, Germany, etc.) acted in accordance with its double standards, you yourself recognized, the USSR acted in accordance with its own interests!
              Well, Latvia didn’t act in double standards. What is one fact where Latvia was not correct in terms of its attitude towards the USSR or operated by double standards?
              Quote: Be proud.
              Someone didn’t like it? This is their problem.


              Most importantly, these actions of the USSR were illegal (well, of course, they met all the interests of Moscow). Then the question is: What were the interests of the USSR?
              What interests can justify the annexation of independent states?

              Quote: Be proud.
              I didn’t understand about Poland at all. Please details.

              Polsha had a large territory of ambition. Despite the fact that Polsha Latvia significantly helped in the liberation of the eastern regions in the war for independence, Polsha Latgale (Latvian region) considered it to be its territory. In short, Polsha is not without sin, but what reason does it give others to act illegally? In other words, international law gives enough benefits to protect their legitimate interests.
              If something is not intelligible, then please ask again and indicate.
              I apologize for my grammar.
              1. +3
                7 October 2013 00: 06
                Quote: Namejs
                What is one fact where Latvia was not correct in terms of its attitude towards the USSR or operated by double standards?

                What has Latvia to do with it? I wrote about a quote about - "... generally accepted principles ..." The wording is absolutely vague.
                Quote: Namejs
                What interests can justify the annexation of independent states?

                Did you know that before World War II, not every annexation was considered illegal and invalid? The principle prohibiting resorting to force or the threat of its use, which has become one of the basic principles of modern international law, was first enshrined in 1945 in the UN Charter. And the interests are simple - concern for one's own security. By the way. A counter question. Why does the current Latvia not adhere to " general human principles "? Dividing people into Citizens and Non-Citizens?
                1. namejs
                  -1
                  7 October 2013 01: 06
                  Quote: Be proud.
                  Do you know that before World War II, not every annexation was considered unlawful or invalid?


                  And which annexation was perceived as legal?

                  Quote: Be proud.
                  The principle prohibiting the recourse to force or the threat of its use, which has become one of the basic principles of modern international law, was first enshrined in the UN Charter in 1945. And interests are simple-concern for their own security


                  It is necessary to read the statues of the League of the nation to which the USSR presoidenils.

                  In general, the complexity of the USSR by annexing Latvia violated dozens of renegotiations of undertakings. Starting with the Mirnov Treaty between Latvia and the RSFSR and documents such as the Paris Counter-Pact (which the USSR adopted in 1929), etc.
                  Quote: Be proud.
                  Counter question: Why does the present-day Latvia not adhere to "universal principles"? Dividing people into Citizens and Non-citizens?

                  With non-citizens, the situation is even simpler — for a non-citizen there is a possibility of naturalization (you just need to take an exam in the Latvian language). At least 180 non-citizens have already taken advantage of this.
                  A non-citizen differs from a citizen in that he has no voting rights. And all the rest crawls with social protection and other guarantees that the citizen. The question is fundamental - many non-citizens who arrived in Latvia in Soviet times (in fact, colonists) are in a hostile mood against independent Latvia + does not know the Latvian language.
                  If in 1940 in Latvia 76% were Latvians, then already in 1990, only 52% (Asimilation - many chauvinists even spoke - there are still a lot of Latvians in our city of Riga) and a rare visitor who just learned Latvian, although practically all Latvians knew Russian. And in order for the latish language to fail to learn the same as the Belarusian language, we had to take measures to protect the language. Of course, many were dissatisfied - why learn the language of "aborigines" and so on.

                  In principle, the situation is good right now. those Russian-speaking who wanted to naturalize it was done by those who did not want to (for example, guys who didn’t serve in the army specially did not know for citizenship). About any kind of discrimination and speech can not be. Look at how many Russians are at the top posts in the country (one mayor of Riga is worth it).

                  There are very few such offended Russians in Latvia. Although what are they Russian. Just look at the names of those who position themselves as the most important defenders - Jacob Pliner, Tatiana Zhdanok and Vladimir Linderman ...

                  I will write about the civil issue again tomorrow because the disinformation in Russia on this issue is very great.
                  1. +2
                    7 October 2013 01: 34
                    Quote: Namejs
                    With non-citizens, the situation is even simpler - for a non-citizen there is a possibility of naturalization

                    Please note that at the time of arrival in Latvia there were no such requirements. At the time when the Baltic states gained independence, these people were citizens of Latvia and were deprived of their citizenship. I am not opposed to the fact that the requirements of knowledge of the language for newcomers are competent, however, the same requirement for already residents is illegal.
                    1. namejs
                      0
                      7 October 2013 22: 20
                      Quote: Setrac
                      Please note that at the time of arrival in Latvia there were no such requirements.


                      In turn, I must explain to you that the Republic of Latvia is not the same as the Latvian SSR. The fact that the names of Latvia appear in both names gives no reason for legal consequences. The fact is that despite the fact that Latvia was annexed, it continued to exist legal de jure. And Soviet Latvia is the same subject of occupational power as was, for example, the Reichskommosiat of Ostland ..
                      So, since legal power did not exist on the territory of Latvia, the legal dichotomy of the Soviet power (occupation) after the restoration of the law of power does not obligate anything. Arriving during the Soviet annexation, they are the same as the colonists. If Russia, as a successor to the USSR, recognized the fact of annexation of the Baltic countries, then they would be the obligation of everyone who came after 1940 to pick up the opposite. Giving citizenship to everyone? Tembolia that a large percentage of them frankly hated the idea of ​​independent Latvia and also hated everything Latvian, a barrier was naturally made, although in reality of unity the grave criterion was knowledge of the language.

                      What would be if citizenship was given to everyone right away, like Lithuanians did for example? The influence of lethiphobian political groups would increase on Latvian politics and there would be a constant political pressure ... In short, everything could end in a civil war, but nothing happened.

                      Was this correct? I think yes. Those who wanted to integrate into society did this without problems and there is no real ethnic dignity. In Latvia, they didn’t act like in Central Asia where the Russians literally got rid of houses and robbed. It is not in vain that after the collapse of the USSR (before the collapse in the average population, about 15% of Russians lived in the Asian republics) less than 1% of the total Russian population remained in the Central Asian republics of the total Russian population
                      1. 0
                        7 October 2013 22: 33
                        Quote: Namejs
                        In turn, I must explain to you that the Republic of Latvia is not the same as the Latvian SSR. The fact that the names of Latvia appear in both names gives no reason for legal consequences.

                        Well, return the territories that Soviet power so generously cut to you. In the meantime, you just otmazyvatsya so as not to be responsible for their actions.
                      2. namejs
                        0
                        8 October 2013 00: 51
                        Quote: Setrac
                        Well, return the territories that Soviet power so generously cut to you

                        ?????? What other "slicing" pieces? What did you mean??

                        Quote: Setrac
                        In the meantime, you just otmazyvatsya so as not to be responsible for their actions.

                        What else are our actions ??
                      3. +1
                        11 October 2013 07: 08
                        You confuse Lithuania with Latvia, it was Lithuania that cut the Vilnius region and Klaipeda (Memel).
        2. vahatak
          -5
          6 October 2013 14: 31
          Quote: Be proud.
          And to lose the "face" of the Country

          It must be had.
          1. +3
            6 October 2013 14: 51
            Quote: vahatak
            It must be had.

            We will not go into philosophical wilds, with a touch of trollism. Do you think differently? Your right. I remain in my opinion.
            1. vahatak
              -2
              6 October 2013 15: 33
              And then philosophy and trolling? In 1939, the USSR was the only socialist country. Which face? Before someone save? Before those whom Soviet propaganda calls the last words every day? Everyone hated the communists anyway.
              1. +2
                6 October 2013 19: 06
                What difference does it make, what kind of country was the USSR. Do you need to fully quote the meaning of phraseological units? Let me remind you briefly. LOSE FACE - Preserve your reputation. It makes no difference to whom.
                Quote: vahatak
                Before those whom Soviet propaganda calls the last words every day? Everyone hated the communists anyway.

                This, I won’t even discuss it. Goodbye, the debate is over. Do not bother to answer.
      3. vahatak
        -3
        6 October 2013 14: 34
        And I will say why they do not agree. Because they do not even have the idea that evacuation could be avoided by protecting their territory, as during the First World War, because then there was tsarism, and tsarism did everything wrong in contrast to Stalin, who did everything right.
        1. +2
          6 October 2013 19: 32
          Quote: vahatak
          And I will say why they do not agree. Because they do not even have the idea that evacuation could be avoided by protecting their territory, as during the First World War, because then there was tsarism, and tsarism did everything wrong in contrast to Stalin, who did everything right.

          Remind you how the WWI ended for the Russian Empire? The same "tsarism" allowed Moscow to be burned in 1812.
          1. vahatak
            -2
            6 October 2013 20: 48
            The WWII ended with the Brest-Litovsk peace, when the Bolsheviks concluded a separate peace, before breaking up the army. For comparison, even Serbia, being fully occupied, was among the winners.
            And in 1812 Napoleon had a huge advantage in number, which allowed him to take Moscow, but this did not prevent "tsarism" from taking Paris and becoming the most influential state of that time.
            1. kripto
              0
              7 October 2013 18: 25
              Losers! The First World War, let me tell you a secret, ended with the Treaty of Versailles. And so beloved by you "tsarism" with Varnak Rasputin, just let him down with his mediocre, and sometimes criminal actions, brought the country to revolution.
              1. vahatak
                0
                7 October 2013 19: 01
                Quote: Setrac
                You recall what ended with WWI for the Russian Empire?

                FOR THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE
                We are able to read, about the most educated and cleverest?
              2. lexe
                -2
                7 October 2013 19: 45
                Losers! The First World War, let me tell you a secret, ended with the Treaty of Versailles. And so beloved by you "tsarism" with Varnak Rasputin, just let him down with his mediocre, and sometimes criminal actions, brought the country to revolution.

                Are you apparently an excellent student?
                I’ll tell you a terrible secret - Russia won the 1st World War. Our victory was deliberately delayed. Otherwise, the USSR would simply not have taken place.
                Rasputin? Very sober thought laughing sorry for the aphorism ...
                In addition, each leader has his own Wolf Messing. Do you also disagree with this? No need to be naive, each leader has his own informal sources of information.
                Rasputin ... but he is Russian from the village, unlike any Messings. A slice of the Russian society, so to speak laughing Do you think why such a birth rate was in Russia? Maybe the Soviet leadership didn’t consult with those? Rasputin wasn’t found? The war and mopping-ups all ruffled the Rasputins?
                1. kripto
                  0
                  8 October 2013 19: 08
                  Dear namesake !!! Without false modesty, I’ll tell you - yes an excellent student, moreover, in a Soviet school))). And I evaluate the historical process not from the point of view of like or dislike, but by simply comparing the facts.
                  And to assert that Rasputin is a slice of Russian society until 1917 is at least blasphemy. You want to say that Russian society consisted entirely of thieves, horse thieves, whips and molesters. And this is only a fraction of what can be mentioned. All of the above is confirmed at least by police surveillance documents.
                  You will be so kind as to get a well-deserved "fat" minus.
                  1. lexe
                    0
                    8 October 2013 19: 47
                    And to assert that Rasputin is a slice of Russian society until 1917 is at least blasphemy. You want to say that Russian society without exception consisted of thieves, horse thieves, whips and molesters. And this is only a fraction of what can be mentioned. All of the above is confirmed at least by police surveillance documents.
                    You will be so kind as to get a well-deserved "fat" minus.

                    You are apparently not only an excellent pupil but also a saint.
                    There is no more honest and just people on earth than the Russian people.
                    Rasputin has had so many "soldered" articles in previous years, and this is a brand laughing worldwide laughing
                    And for me, so let the brand live laughing .After all, vodka will soon be announced as a Polish invention, if you listen to all the excellent students.
                    That is why the emperor is a simple ideal Russian peasant at court? And so always before my eyes is the dark side of the moon.
                    I don’t put a minus to you; I rarely put them at all. And you do not reach this rare case.
                    Sincerely.
  25. +4
    5 October 2013 15: 51
    The treaty did not go beyond the framework of international law of that time, the West was just infuriating the Soviet diplomats who had competently washed them.
    About the conditions under which negotiations were underway for the USSR, the West is silent, heavy fighting in the Far East.
    The USSR tried to make it refuse that little was left of Russia following the results of the First World War and lost during the civil war ... flew by. here they were again made by Soviet diplomats, the country reaffirmed the right to the lost, nothing more. All this was confirmed in the future ... what is laid down on the basis of the First World War and no more.
    Everyone is modestly forgetting the so-called injured party ... Poland, which itself was an aggressor during the occupation of Czechoslovakia and did not miss the Soviet troops contrary to international law ... that here all the Westerners shut up and dig their nose abstractly, as they say ... and who started the first.
    No one is considering the option of what would happen if Poland provided a corridor to Danzig, as Germany had asked for ... but thanks then to the Pole ... the show-offs outweighed reality with France’s promises to England of notorious help ... like they’ll hang everyone .
    If they had not thrown Poland ... and there would have been no deployment of Soviet troops.
    The best part is that we did not hear thanks for saving the Polish civilian population from the massacre of Ukrainian nationalists ... which was carried out under the strict supervision of the Nazis in the future.
    1. vahatak
      0
      6 October 2013 14: 39
      Quote: Strashila
      No one is considering the option of what would happen if Poland provided a corridor to Danzig, as Germany had requested

      And what happened when Germany asked Czechoslovakia to just give the Sudeten Germans more rights.
  26. +2
    5 October 2013 16: 04
    The collapse of the plans of the Anglo-Saxons against the USSR (how many years have passed) causes a natural howl and calls for repentance from liberals of all stripes, from ultra-Nazis to full Tolerasts. You should not pay much attention to ritual howls (they earn so much greens for food), but you must remember this momentous event. Good article.
    1. sanecc
      -2
      5 October 2013 17: 16
      mdaa ------- The Anglo-Saxons wanted to pit two odious leaders and two totalitarian systems ----- to warm the paws of a strange fire ..... From the current did not work! Of course, the losses are not the same as in the First World War, but the losses are significant .............. And the Russian Empire won the victory in the First World --------- agree that it simply failed. corny not occupying vast territories in the west, and even foolishly surrendering their own on Brest ......- LOOKING AND LISTENING OPINIONS!
      1. Glory333
        +1
        5 October 2013 18: 47
        Western "democracies" are much more totalitarian than the USSR or the Reich.

        In the First World War, Russia fought simultaneously with Germany, Austria-Hungary and Turkey. The West fought practically only with Germany alone, in gratitude for the victims of Russia in the war, England, the USA and France staged 2 revolutions in Russia - first in February and then in October, recognized the independence of the breakaway provinces - Poland, the Baltic States, Finland, provided these separatists with great financial and military assistance ... and finally agreed to give Russia as much as 10% of German reparations !!! This unprecedented generosity was accompanied by "small" conditions - the recognition by Russia of all tsarist debts of 40 billion and, most importantly, of all the huge property of Western oligarchs - factories, railways ... and of course oil fields - all this Russia was to return to the West in exchange for a promise of 10% German payments.
        1. vahatak
          -2
          6 October 2013 14: 47
          Quote: Glory333
          In World War I, it fought simultaneously with Germany, Austria-Hungary and Turkey. The West fought almost with Germany alone

          Have you heard about Italy and Serbia, having given up all their strength against the Austro-Hungarian Empire? And about Galipoli, where most of the Turkish army fought ?, and about the Palestinian front? But an elementary comparison of the number of German divisions on the Western and Eastern fronts is not available to us, right? The main burden of that war was on France. Yes, the Anglo-Saxons, as always, took their toll. Those who had the brains also acquired their pieces.
      2. kripto
        0
        7 October 2013 18: 29
        However, in 1945, the controversial leader returned everything that was lost. And even with a profit. And if under the vast lost territories you regret that the expensive "psheks" did not remain in Russia, thank God, we have less headaches. Definitely a minus to you !!!
  27. +4
    5 October 2013 17: 18
    Europe, as always, is swine in Russia. All European leaders, including Churchill and the English King George, admired the courage of the defenders of Stalingrad. The whole world watched the battle of giants: the USSR and Germany. Our fathers and grandfathers won. And when the threat of fascism was gone over Britain and France, European "analysts" began to shit on Russia. Yes, they were offended. The well-fed and cowardly French gave their Paris to the Germans without a fight. And the legendary Leningrad defended its honor! We the older generation know the value of Western insinuations. The main thing is that the youth of Russia would not peck at the fabrications of Western cowards ...
    1. Shogun23
      +6
      5 October 2013 17: 37
      There are even no comments
      1. namejs
        -3
        6 October 2013 00: 48
        Like French resistance then it doesn’t count?
        Can I throw a picture of Soviet citizens in military uniforms with crowds of prisoners of war being captured in Germany?

        And it’s just no offense — go to extremes :)
        1. +4
          6 October 2013 01: 26
          Quote: Namejs
          And it’s just no offense — go to extremes :)

          How can you not go over to extremes if you help the enemy - enemy propaganda? You can throw a picture, but the picture will show the very fact of the soldiers captured, how they were captured will not be visible. Some were captured because of weakness and cowardice - the French - and when it was still possible to fight. Others - Russians - were captured when they were surrounded and ended with ammunition and food, and often with injuries of varying severity.
          Quote: Namejs
          Like French resistance then it doesn’t count?

          French resistance is a meaningless phenomenon, had no effect on the results of the war.
          1. namejs
            -3
            6 October 2013 14: 17
            Quote: Setrac
            How can you not go over to extremes if you help the enemy - enemy propaganda? You can throw a picture, but the picture will show the very fact of the soldiers captured, how they were captured will not be visible. Some were captured because of weakness and cowardice - the French - and when it was still possible to fight. Others - Russians - were captured when they were surrounded and ended with ammunition and food, and often with injuries of varying severity.


            Your picture shows a weeping Frenchman (civilian) and a Soviet soldier with guns. Would you like to say that the French have failed? Then why is there no picture with French soldiers or with Soviet civilians?

            This is the same as if I inserted a picture with Latvian athletes with a family of seven and Russian alcoholics, and I wanted to make a summary that the Russians are not good at all. This is fundamentally wrong and I disapprove of this kind of comparison.

            Quote: Setrac
            French resistance is a meaningless phenomenon, had no effect on the results of the war.


            Well, how can I tell you, it’s not enough results.

            Paris 1944 freed French resistance with the support of the entire population of Paris. The Allies even intended to get around Paris because they thought that very large German forces had settled there.

            You can also judge the Soviet partisans. It seems that they acted, but the turnover of transportation by railroads of the Germans constantly grew. Of course, you can argue since this is all very ambiguous.

            Morality - inappropriately drawing conclusions is too fast.
            1. +1
              6 October 2013 19: 38
              Quote: Namejs
              Paris 1944 freed French resistance with the support of the entire population of Paris.

              Which did not affect the outcome of the war.
              Quote: Namejs
              The Allies even intended to get around Paris because they thought that very large German forces had settled there.

              These "great German forces" are the grandfathers from the Folksturm and the children from the Hitler Youth, who the French fought with and whom they defeated - the elderly and children.
              Quote: Namejs
              You can also judge the Soviet partisans. It seems that they acted, but the turnover of transportation by railroads of the Germans constantly grew. Of course, you can argue since this is all very ambiguous.

              Soviet partisans quite realistically destroyed German logistics, everything is clear here, the help to the front is quite real.
              1. namejs
                0
                8 October 2013 01: 00
                Quote: Setrac
                Which did not affect the outcome of the war.

                How to know. And not even about this debate. This example serves as a proof that the French resistance took an active part in the struggle against Nazism. Some top-end crawlers claim that the French resistance was just fictitious

                Quote: Setrac
                These "great German forces" are the grandfathers from the Folksturm and the children from the Hitler Youth, who the French fought with and whom they defeated - the elderly and children.

                In the summer of 1944 there was only one Hitler Youth division, and this was a selective division. No grandparents were in Paris (prove the opposite).

                Quote: Setrac
                Soviet partisans quite realistically destroyed German logistics, everything is clear here, the help to the front is quite real.

                As far as I know, the turnover of this German logistics constantly grew (S. S. Zakharevich - Partisans of the USSR - from myth to reality). And the Germans died from the partisans no more than 40.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. 0
                  8 October 2013 10: 44
                  Quote: Namejs
                  mythoph to reality). And the Germans died from the partisans no more than 40.

                  Referring to an incomprehensible author, who, in fact, is not an author, but a Russophobic, anti-Soviet, and anti-Russian project, this is not even a bad form, but openly hostile actions. This book was published in Vilnius, in 2012, and this is what says about it project, the initiator of this book project, a certain Anatoly Taras. I quote his statements. "... There was a brutal massacre. On both sides - both from the Nazis and from the Communists. Both of them committed a lot of crimes ...". " ... So the war in general looks disgusting. Here is the figure: the valiant Soviet soldiers raped a million German women in 1945. It was ugly, but it was ... "Except how to call him the stupid last Beevor (based on an extreme quote), differently no. Further. "... Yes, the partisans killed their people. They killed because they had to feed. Who will give away food for free, if there are so few of them? The only cow, the last pig, the last chicken. Therefore, they were taken away by force. who resisted were killed, including women. well known, although it is not customary to talk about it. Ugly. "People's avengers" turn out to be "robbers of the people" ... "." ... with specific examples it is shown that the partisans, being flesh of the flesh of the Soviet-Bolshevik cannibalistic system, could not but be criminals. By definition, they couldn't. If we assume that the CPSU (b) is a criminal organization (and the three of us - the author, editor, publisher, think so), then the partisans were what the party was. Yes, sometimes they fought with the enemy, but above all - with their own people ... "For me, the conclusion is the same, all of the listed: the author, editor and publisher are obvious enemies. The figure of 40.000 Germans, according to him, Taras took from the magazine "Rodina". I asked. The magazine "Rodina" is published under the patronage of the presidential administration and the government of the Russian Federation. I did not look for the material, but if it comes from there, personally, it is not surprising. In light of the recognition of certain events by our bureaucrats. with them, different homeland. And you, more like x ... y, do not cite as evidence. Okay, I'll come back later, I'll tell you about your "white, fluffy, democratic-correct Latvia", sample of 1939. "Unjustly" annexed ...
                3. +1
                  8 October 2013 21: 56
                  Quote: Namejs
                  This example serves as a proof that the French resistance took an active part in the struggle against Nazism.

                  Active participation is slightly better than the Danes.
                  Quote: Namejs
                  And the Germans died from the partisans no more than 40.

                  But a large number of equipment and ammunition died, which (ammunition) as a result did not shoot at the Red Army.
                  1. namejs
                    0
                    9 October 2013 13: 42
                    Quote: Setrac
                    But a large number of equipment and ammunition died, which (ammunition) as a result did not shoot at the Red Army.

                    Only the momentum of the Germans did not fall in supplies. And the Germans as a whole lost to the blogarar of the mediocrity of the hanging command

                    Quote: Setrac
                    Active participation is a little better than the Danes


                    then you still need to clearly say that the USSR won the war and there the British and Americans helped a little
                    1. 0
                      9 October 2013 15: 23
                      Quote: Namejs
                      then you still need to clearly say that the USSR won the war and there the British and Americans helped a little

                      And this will be true, at least with regard to the Third Reich.
                      1. namejs
                        0
                        9 October 2013 17: 49
                        I disagree with you. But I can understand. In Russia, the only success that remained (except for Gagarin and the satellite) is WWII or WWII, and I see how many people start to get angry when I ask more unpleasant questions or understand any real troubles for a patriot. I understand that perfectly. Only here is what I regretted (without irony) that in the history of WWII the Bolsheviks were very dirty before, first of all, the Russian peoples and also in relation to others. Trying to explain everything with the words “it should have been so” and “there was no other way out”, you turn the same Balts against yourself because the crimes against them are now justified by the Bolsheviks in every way.
                        The fact is that in Russia no one even managed to create new ideas, and they came up with the idea of ​​holding onto Soviet (in my opinion) pseudo values.

                        I apologize for the grammar errors and also thanks for the tolerance
                      2. Avenger711
                        +1
                        9 October 2013 18: 41
                        There were no crimes against the Batians, if the brains are completely absent, that this fact does not reach, then healing euthanasia will help.
                      3. namejs
                        0
                        9 October 2013 21: 37
                        And what then was, for example, the deportation of peaceful people? they were deported by at least 60 people in cattle wagons - what is it? among them, every 000 was a child or an old man. The youngest few weeks .... This is the most natural crime. Councils in Latvia acted just like the Nazis in Belarus or in Russia
          2. vahatak
            0
            6 October 2013 14: 54
            Quote: Setrac
            Others - Russians - were captured when they were surrounded and ended with ammunition and food

            The French understood that they would be surrounded as soon as the Germans were in the rear, and the Soviet troops, for lack of information, did not even imagine where the Germans were, and they only realized the situation when each soldier’s personally ended.
            And to call the French cowards is the greatest disgust.
            1. +1
              6 October 2013 19: 40
              Quote: vahatak
              And to call the French cowards is the greatest disgust.

              Facts cannot be an insult if they are pigs - we are not to blame. May I remind you how recently the French destroyed Kadaffi - their creditor!
              1. vahatak
                -3
                6 October 2013 20: 52
                If defeat in one war and recognition of defeat is cowardice, then what is common sense?
                And such a freak as Gaddafi had to be beaten earlier, and not to dance with him. Yes, this (cooperation with Gaddafi) was immoral. I do not deny that Western politicians are like that, but Soviet politicians were no better.
                1. +2
                  6 October 2013 21: 05
                  Quote: vahatak
                  And such a freak as Gaddafi had to be beaten earlier, and not to dance with him.

                  To begin with, what is he "yrod"? Second, what about the international law you are praising?
                  Quote: vahatak
                  I do not deny that Western politicians are like that, but Soviet politicians were no better.

                  We do not kill foreign leaders and did not kill.
                  1. vahatak
                    -2
                    6 October 2013 21: 35
                    where did I praise international law? I am a historian and I know that international law is written for the weak, and the strong always spit them as they wanted.
                    What should be called Gaddafi, if he has been ruling the country for 42 years without any brakes, doing everything that comes to his mind with his rivals, governs terrorists (he even once acknowledged the explosion of an airplane over Britain)?
                    I do not care much for foreign leaders, but the fact that the Soviet Union suppressed performances in Berlin in 1953, in Hungary in 1956, in Czechoslovakia in 1968 did not kill anyone there? not leaders, ordinary people.
                    1. +2
                      6 October 2013 22: 05
                      Quote: vahatak
                      where did I praise international law? I am a historian and I know that international law is written for the weak, and the strong always spit them as they wanted.

                      However, you blame the USSR from the standpoint of international law!
                      Quote: vahatak
                      I do not care much for foreign leaders, but the fact that the Soviet Union suppressed performances in Berlin in 1953, in Hungary in 1956, in Czechoslovakia in 1968 did not kill anyone there? not leaders, ordinary people.

                      Performances - paid for by the West! There are no "ordinary" people at such demonstrations, and civilian casualties were caused by riots in the streets and not by Russian weapons.
                      Quote: vahatak
                      What should I call Gaddafi, if he has ruled the country for 42 years without any brakes, does everything that comes to his mind with his rivals, governs terrorists

                      You know this from Western propaganda, but in fact the state flourished.
                      1. vahatak
                        -1
                        6 October 2013 22: 21
                        When did I blame the USSR. If the leadership of the USSR accused of something, it was a mistake, but not a violation of international law.
                        Gaddafi was also not an "ordinary" citizen, and it was not Europeans who killed him, but the rebels, about whom I do not say anything good (this is for prevention, so that I would not be accused of supporting all kinds of radical Islamists)
                        Libya's natural wealth allows it to flourish under any stable regime. This is not the merit of Gaddafi. the same Qatar or Kuwait are also flourishing, although their leaders are still specimens (as you know, I will not regret them either, if ...)
                    2. Ulan
                      +2
                      7 October 2013 10: 28
                      And who cares about Gaddafi? Is this not the internal affair of Iraq and the Iraqis? What did the Americans do there several thousand kilometers from their borders.
                      American politicians say (Wolfowitz, Cheney, etc.) - yes ... we have the right to remove the rulers we do not like in other states. And how?
                      Berlin? Isn't it the ones that just 8 years ago killed, robbed and raped our citizens? Wasn't Hungary an ally of Hitler and the unrest there were not the ones that escaped the Nuremberg Tribunal? Where did the "peaceful" population suddenly find themselves in their hands? the mass of weapons? Czechoslovakia also did not do without "well-wishers."
                      1. vahatak
                        -1
                        7 October 2013 12: 31
                        So Iraq and Libya have internal affairs, but the GDR, Hungary and Czechoslovakia do not? Even if the protests were organized from abroad, this does not give reason to bring troops in and arrest (I do not remember exactly, but they sort of shot) rulers from a legal point of view, but this is, as it were, secondary. I just said that all the great powers interfere in the internal affairs of small states and the USSR is no exception. And the majority here insists that the USSR is white and fluffy, and all the rest are .... sy.
                      2. +1
                        7 October 2013 15: 32
                        Quote: vahatak
                        And the majority here insists that the USSR is white and fluffy, and all the rest are .... sy.

                        You see, the West so dearly beloved to you, these are bandits who go into a strange house (country) to rob and kill, and the USSR is a policeman who goes into a strange house to protect the owner. According to this, the USSR is white and fluffy for all its shortcomings, and the west is n _______ sy, for all their advantages, and they do not hide their homosexual nature, strive for it and are proud of it.
                      3. vahatak
                        0
                        7 October 2013 16: 11
                        If I call all the great powers equally aggressive, then I love the West, and even passionately?
                        And with your comparison you just confirmed my words.
                      4. +1
                        7 October 2013 17: 16
                        Quote: vahatak
                        If I call all the great powers equally aggressive

                        And small? Poland for example, or Israel. The aggressors are still those.
                      5. vahatak
                        -2
                        7 October 2013 17: 56
                        The article here is not about Poland and Israel. World wars are fought by great powers.
                        The aggression of "small" powers differs in form, methods and goals from the aggression of the great powers. Not better or worse, just a completely different category. Therefore, they are not placed in the same row.
                      6. 0
                        7 October 2013 22: 38
                        Quote: vahatak
                        The article here is not about Poland and Israel. World wars are fought by great powers.
                        The aggression of "small" powers differs in form, methods and goals from the aggression of the great powers. Not better or worse, just a completely different category. Therefore, they are not placed in the same row.

                        Oh, how does it mean logs can kill Russians, but Russians can't? Just like in a joke.
                        “Hey, I don’t understand who your friend is, a bear or me?”
                        So I want to ask you a question, who is your friend, Russia or Poland and the USA? Interestingly, such sentiments prevail within Armenia, or are you the only one such "unique"?
                      7. vahatak
                        0
                        8 October 2013 00: 02
                        Personally, I am a supporter of the alliance with Russia and the development of this alliance, but because of people like you in disputes with our opponents in Armenia (supporters of the alliance with the USA, so far small in number) there are not enough argumants, because they always poke us with statements of yours, where the USSR and Stalin is the very, most, Russia is just an angel in the person of the state, everyone owes him everything, she saves everyone and saves, and everyone is obliged to do only what the Russians say, and that others also have interests and goals in this life, you not known.
                      8. 0
                        8 October 2013 00: 14
                        Quote: vahatak
                        Russia is just an angel in the person of the state, everyone owes him, she saved and saves everyone

                        Yes, with wings. And we help everyone who needs it. Money, Ministry of Emergencies, than we can. But we have our own problems above the roof. Now call at least someone who helped us in Krymsk and the East during the flood.
                      9. vahatak
                        0
                        8 October 2013 00: 35
                        This is generally not a topic, but once asked. In Krymsk and in the East, I don’t remember Russia asking for help abroad, and in 2010, anyone helped as best they could. But the conversation, I repeat, was about something else, and you took my words out of context.
                    3. Avenger711
                      0
                      9 October 2013 18: 49
                      And it is not your business that the USSR suppressed in the states that had previously fought against it, or made weapons to the belligerent. It is his sovereign right to force neighbors to be friendly and eliminate any threat of ending this friendship. Regarding the one who was killed there, you are apparently so dumb that you don’t understand that the USSR was still fussing with this scum, an army with heavy weapons could have put everything there on the asphalt without much loss, and not a hundred bandits that you know in Russian a soldier was shot, which means they were subject to extermination, to shoot.
                      1. namejs
                        0
                        9 October 2013 21: 40
                        Quote: Avenger711
                        It is his sovereign right to force neighbors to be friendly and eliminate any threat of ending this friendship.

                        If I were at a seminar of international law so scolzovat I would be thrown out of the university forever :)))

                        Do you just understand the meaning of the word sovereignty?
            2. Avenger711
              0
              9 October 2013 18: 46
              Well, of course, the French knew that they had already been surrounded, damn, that in the environment of communication, usually dumb. Yes, and this is ridiculous if a little surrounded and the whole part of the column is captured. For some reason, only the Soviet units tried to break through under the same conditions, hence the loss of 95% by the French prisoners, and 41% in the Red Army in the 60st, this was when the soldier left without cartridges could still surrender, because he did not know what Germans, and there was still hope that a month or two and our Fritz will chase.
        2. +4
          6 October 2013 04: 05
          Quote: Namejs
          Like French resistance then it doesn’t count?

          And what is it?
          Like the Danes who didn’t go on a picnic outside the city, but sat down to fry meat in their courtyards and proudly declared: Stalingrad is here!
      2. vahatak
        -3
        6 October 2013 14: 50
        The difference is obvious. French citizens are alive and they will probably survive the whole war, and few of the Soviet people in the photo will survive until the next day.
        1. +1
          6 October 2013 15: 27
          Quote: vahatak
          , and of the Soviet in the photo, few will survive until the next day.

          What is the reason?
          1. vahatak
            -4
            6 October 2013 15: 35
            Of course I will. The Germans will kill. If the French acted in the same way as the USSR, the French would also be killed.
            1. +2
              6 October 2013 22: 08
              Quote: vahatak
              Of course I will. The Germans will kill. If the French acted in the same way as the USSR, the French would also be killed.

              And if (God forbid!) The Republic of Armenia would be in the place of the French Republic, and the Republic of Turkey in the place of the aggressor, fascist Germany?
              Youvahatakwould reveal the same pacifism and humility?
              1. vahatak
                0
                6 October 2013 22: 26
                You will not believe it, but the Republic of Armenia has been in such a situation in 1918. And yes, I had to go to a humiliating world even after our troops heroically stopped the Turks in front of Yerevan. And they waited until the First World War ended. About the same thing happened in 1920, when Armenia lost the Turkish war and the current borders appeared. And what had to be done? Fight until the other half of the people die? Death with arms in hand is certainly beautiful, but not always smart. And if you survive, then you can hope for a revenge.
                1. +1
                  6 October 2013 22: 40
                  Quote: vahatak
                  And if you survive, then you can hope for a revenge.

                  I do not think that the majority (emphasis on "o") part of the Armenians will agree with you ...
                  1. vahatak
                    0
                    6 October 2013 22: 55
                    I did not conduct surveys. Maybe they don’t agree. Although they are not happy they would rather die in a war where it is impossible to win. If most of it wants to, it can attack Turkey right now. The outcome is a little predictable. But for some reason they don’t want to. Even when I say revenge after many years, many do not believe.
                    1. +1
                      6 October 2013 22: 59
                      Quote: vahatak
                      If most of it wants to, it can attack Turkey right now.

                      God does not give horns to a vigorous cow.
                      1. vahatak
                        0
                        6 October 2013 23: 03
                        Hope for God, but don’t be too bad)
                      2. +4
                        6 October 2013 23: 13
                        Quote: vahatak
                        Hope for God, but don’t be too bad)

                        But so that the Armenians were not slaughtered by the Turks, the Russians had to "fail". And now a descendant of these "saved" sits on the Russian resource and pours dirt on their saviors in the spirit of Western propaganda.
                      3. vahatak
                        -1
                        6 October 2013 23: 47
                        To begin with, personally, my ancestors were, as it were, from another region, where the Turks had the imprudence to go a couple of times, but not everyone left.
                        But not everyone was saved from the Armenians, and the Russians somehow left the Caucasus Front in 1917, and the genocide lasted until 1923 if that happened, and we had to save the khotya and, through humiliating peace treaties, the remnants of the people.
                        But where you saw the dirt in Russian, I just do not understand. Just in case, I repeat the Russian is not equal to the communist.
                      4. +3
                        7 October 2013 00: 01
                        Quote: vahatak
                        To begin with, personally, my ancestors were, as it were, from another region, where the Turks had the imprudence to go a couple of times, but not everyone left.

                        And my ancestors were from where they cut. And your ancestors, according to your position (although on the contrary, your position is a continuation of the position of your ancestors) sat behind my ancestors, which does not do you any honor. Therefore, they didn’t leave for the betrayed Armenia, but in Russia, where they didn’t kill for their nationality.
                        Quote: vahatak
                        Just in case, I repeat the Russian is not equal to the communist.

                        Just in case, I will say: a citizen of Armenia = Armenian, Hitler would have envied such "purity of the nation".
                      5. vahatak
                        0
                        7 October 2013 00: 11
                        And where did the residents of the Syunik region get out if you are so informed?
                        Quote: Setrac
                        Hitler would have envied such "purity of the nation"

                        If Germany had been left between Berlin and Dresden, 96% of Germans would also have been there. Do you think it would be something to envy?
                      6. vahatak
                        0
                        7 October 2013 00: 14
                        For those who do not read branches from the beginning:
                        They asked me what I would do if I were in the place of the French in 1940, and I said that in an analogous situation, my ancestors refused to wholesale most of my country to save the remnants of the people. And you probably would have preferred. so they die.
                      7. +1
                        7 October 2013 00: 25
                        Quote: vahatak
                        For those who do not read branches from the beginning:

                        Actually, a parallel with Armenia was drawn at the end, initially you were answered with attacks on the Soviet government about the allegedly unlawful actions of the USSR in the 1939-1940s against Poland and the Baltic states.
                      8. vahatak
                        0
                        7 October 2013 00: 34
                        Read carefully. I did not speak about Poland and the Baltic states and did not discuss the issue from the point of view of law. it all started with the fact that I compared Stalin with Alexander the First in favor of the second, which ensured the neutrality of Sweden and Turkey in 1812, while Stalin quarreled with Romania and Finland. Here, obviously, there are many Stalinists, but Alexander does not like, but in vain.
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                    3. +2
                      6 October 2013 23: 06
                      Quote: vahatak
                      Although they are not happy they would rather die in a war where it is impossible to win.

                      With this "approach" ANY war is IMPOSSIBLE to win.
                      The West also did not believe that the USSR would stand against fascism, and our people despised death and deprivation and gave the planet PEACE and FREEDOM
                      1. vahatak
                        -3
                        6 October 2013 23: 21
                        I don’t know what the West believed in. The USSR or Russia never faced the choice of dying or surviving. The choice was to win with big losses or lose the war with (maybe) even bigger losses, and maybe with less. No matter how dramatized here, Hitler could not destroy all the Slavs.
                      2. Misantrop
                        +3
                        6 October 2013 23: 32
                        Quote: vahatak
                        No matter how dramatized here, Hitler could not destroy all the Slavs.
                        Well, yes, he needed a certain amount of slaves for the new gentlemen. He could or could not, he did it, the civilian population was destroyed three times more than on the battlefields.
                        Quote: vahatak
                        The USSR or Russia never faced the choice of dying or surviving.
                        Yes, constantly, the whole story. "Enlightened European mind" for the Slavs, other than slavery, DID NOT PROVIDE
                      3. vahatak
                        -3
                        6 October 2013 23: 56
                        Here is God for you, so that all your enemies are like Europeans. some only dream about it.
                      4. +3
                        6 October 2013 23: 35
                        Quote: vahatak
                        No matter how dramatized here, Hitler could not destroy all the Slavs.

                        You are lying, of course you wouldn’t destroy everyone, the Russians would have survived in Siberia, but the fact of huge losses among the civilian population speaks against you. The Germans had a plan to destroy the Russians and they carried it out.
                      5. vahatak
                        +1
                        7 October 2013 00: 00
                        Words CANNOT tell you anything? Didn't I say I WANTED?
                      6. +1
                        7 October 2013 01: 34
                        Quote: vahatak
                        Words CANNOT tell you anything? Didn't I say I WANTED?

                        Read about Plan Ost. If we had lost the war, he COULD have done EVERYTHING he WANTED.
                      7. vahatak
                        0
                        7 October 2013 12: 32
                        In order to be able not to lose the war, you must have a state and an army, which the Russians always had, and many peoples only dreamed about it.
                      8. 0
                        7 October 2013 15: 36
                        Quote: vahatak
                        In order to be able not to lose the war, you must have a state and an army, which the Russians always had, and many peoples only dreamed about it.

                        Well, great! The Russians are to blame for someone somewhere not having their own state! Just someone does not spare laboring for the good of their country and dying for their country, as a result, such a country disappears from the world map.
                      9. vahatak
                        -1
                        7 October 2013 16: 13
                        where did I say that the Russians are to blame for something? I just said that the Russians have never been in such difficult situations in which many peoples have been for centuries, and therefore you will not be aware of the severity of the situation that made this or that state make a choice between evil and lesser evil.
                      10. +4
                        6 October 2013 23: 39
                        Quote: vahatak
                        The USSR or Russia never faced the choice of dying or surviving.

                        It’s interesting, what would the STOK start if someone on the Armenian Internet resource would question the FACT of the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE ???
                        Do you actually claim that fascism did not exterminate the Russians and other peoples?!?
                      11. vahatak
                        0
                        6 October 2013 23: 58
                        I do not deny anything. I say that Hitler did not have such an opportunity. His defeat was inevitable.
                      12. +3
                        7 October 2013 01: 51
                        Quote: vahatak
                        I do not deny anything. I say that Hitler did not have such an opportunity. His defeat was inevitable.

                        What are you? It is not a fact that if we had not concluded a pact with Hitler, our future allies would not have done this. Delirium? And the fact that he hoped to the last that OUR Western allies would appreciate his contribution to the fight against Bolshevism and help him out? And what about Dulles's negotiations with the Nazis? What about Operation Unthinkable?
                      13. vahatak
                        0
                        7 October 2013 12: 38
                        1. Hitler's hopes mean little to politics.
                        2. These hopes were associated only with England, but he did not plan to put up with France, so there was no need to generalize.
                        4. The negotiations of Dulles were conducted only at the end of the war and only on the conditions of surrender (unconditionally or not), when the outcome was clear,
                        5. The "unthinkable" is just a work plan, of which there should be dozens in the headquarters of all armies, since every self-respecting general staff must be ready for several options for the development of the situation.
                2. Misantrop
                  +2
                  6 October 2013 23: 35
                  Quote: vahatak
                  And if you survive, then you can hope for a revenge.
                  And many Armenians managed to survive in Turkey after the Young Turks came to power in 1907? They also did not believe that they would be stupidly cut ...
                  1. vahatak
                    +1
                    7 October 2013 00: 02
                    Here a different situation was discussed. Are you sure you read the entire thread from the beginning?
        2. +2
          6 October 2013 15: 30
          Quote: vahatak
          The difference is obvious. French citizens are alive and they will probably survive the whole war, and few of the Soviet people in the photo will survive until the next day.

          Presumably you are for the surrender of the USSR on the "wise example of France"?

          "Legs up" ... and do what the hell with me?

          Clickable Image
          1. vahatak
            0
            6 October 2013 17: 05
            Somewhere here I already wrote for what I am. In short: for joining the war in September 1939.
            1. +2
              6 October 2013 22: 16
              Quote: vahatak
              Somewhere here I already wrote for what I am. In short: for joining the war in September 1939.

              To enter the war, the willingness of the armed forces and the state to wage it. V1939 has not yet had such an opportunity.
              The Wehrmacht in 1939-41 was at the peak of its power (which gradually began to "fade away" after the attack on the USSR, WHY, I hope there is no need to explain), and the Red Army was in the stage of reforming and rearmament ...
              1. vahatak
                0
                6 October 2013 22: 43
                The Wehrmacht reached the peak of power only in 1941. But in 1939, France and partially Poland were still in service, the resources of which in 1941 already served the Wehrmacht.
                Yes, and Romania, the main supplier of oil to Germany, has not yet entered the war.
                At the expense of the preparedness of the Red Army, so in 1941 it did not complete the reform and rearmament, which was the cause of the defeats. There is just such a thing. Someone said that he would rather lose on the territory of the enemy than win on his own. controversial, but pragmatic.
                1. +2
                  6 October 2013 22: 58
                  Quote: vahatak
                  The Wehrmacht reached the peak of power only in 1941.

                  According to reform plans (if I am not mistaken), the Red Army was to reach a peak of combat readiness only by the 1942 year.
                  Quote: vahatak
                  Yes, and Romania, the main supplier of oil to Germany, has not yet entered the war.

                  Romania in the event of a war between the USSR and Germany in 1939, would have "pulled through" quickly, do not hesitate ...
                  1. vahatak
                    0
                    6 October 2013 23: 06
                    Well, if ....
                    I am only comparing the forces of the parties in 1939 and 1941 and I think that in 1939 the anti-Hitler coalition had a greater advantage than in 1941, although the USSR was ready, of course, worse.
                    1. +3
                      6 October 2013 23: 27
                      Quote: vahatak
                      I think that in 1939 the anti-Hitler coalition had a greater advantage than in 1941

                      There could be no "coalition" in 1939 ...
                      "Soyuznichki" caught on only in 1941, when Europe was already lying at the feet of the Fuhrer and the Nazis attacked the USSR.
                      Having "pushed" their brains and "rummaged" in their wallets, the future "partners" reasonably (for themselves) decided that in the event of the defeat of the USSR, their turn would come ... And they decided to help ...
                      Yes, the help is invaluable, but if it weren’t for the USSR, EVERYTHING WOULD BE EVIDENT ...
                      1. vahatak
                        0
                        6 October 2013 23: 52
                        Are you saying that France or Poland in the fall of 1939 would have refused aid? I know that the Poles in the summer of the same year were very brave and proud, but only after the start of the war they themselves shouted "help". And in 1941, only England remained in the ranks, and even with a broken muzzle. And in 1940 Italy entered the war, which also has the experience of "choosing" allies; compare PMV.
                      2. +2
                        7 October 2013 00: 05
                        Quote: vahatak
                        I know that the Poles in the summer of the same year were very brave and proud, but only after the start of the war they themselves shouted "help".

                        It was not necessary to "shout", but to THINK, to think even at a time when the USSR, bound by the treaty "On Mutual Assistance" with Czechoslovakia, asked for a "corridor" for the troops necessary to defend Czechoslovakia.
                        Instead of "brainwashing" the Poles, together with Hitler, they decided to "snatch a piece" from this state.
                        Naturally AFTER THIS, the USSR, REMAINING ALONE FORCED WAS SIGNING A PACT WITH Germany ...
                      3. vahatak
                        0
                        7 October 2013 00: 16
                        so read my comments first and make sure that I also think the signing of the pact is correct, just the USSR was not able to take full advantage of this.
                      4. +1
                        7 October 2013 00: 23
                        Quote: vahatak
                        just the USSR was not able to take full advantage of this.

                        The signing of the Pact itself is a "stalemate" situation for the USSR, and the only benefit that could be derived from it was the DELAY of the war ...
                        And the USSR took advantage of this "delay" as much as the situation allowed ...
                      5. vahatak
                        -1
                        7 October 2013 00: 35
                        And the First Lexander used the Tilsit world better, although the situation was no better, but in my opinion even worse.
                      6. +1
                        7 October 2013 00: 05
                        Quote: vahatak
                        I know that the Poles in the summer of the same year were very brave and proud, but only after the start of the war they themselves shouted "help".

                        It was not necessary to "shout", but to THINK, to think at a time when the USSR, bound by the treaty "On Mutual Assistance" with Czechoslovakia, asked for a "corridor" for the troops necessary to defend Czechoslovakia.
                        Instead of "brainwashing" the Poles, together with Hitler, they decided to "snatch a piece" from this state.
                        Naturally AFTER THIS, the USSR, REMAINING ALONE FORCED WAS SIGNING A PACT WITH Germany ...
                2. Avenger711
                  0
                  9 October 2013 19: 10
                  Another rIZuna has read about Romania ...
                  About the reform of Nadiolo nonsense read.
            2. Avenger711
              0
              9 October 2013 18: 56
              The USSR was also in favor. For fighting with the Germans in Poland. Otherwise, I'm sorry, the Psheks sent all our proposals, they have agreements with England and France, even if they are at war. If the Psheks and the French had fought better, then Stalin could have calmly watched in the 42nd year how they wet each other.
    2. sanecc
      +4
      5 October 2013 17: 39
      ALL THAN YOU RIGHT SUCH A TYPE IN THIS WORD-Europe has always been arrogant in relation to the USA AND RUSSIA AND HINDERS WITH AUSTRALIANS ....
      And when over Britain and France the threat of fascism was gone, European "analysts" began to shit on Russia ............ am
    3. Stasi
      +6
      6 October 2013 09: 38
      Europe has always acted and will continue to act swine with Russia, it is high time to understand this. As for France, she is forever indebted to Stalin for allowing him to join the victorious powers. Stalin did this in the hope that de Gaulle would establish a communist regime in France, but he was mistaken. And since occupied France, like all of Europe, easily and obediently carried out Hitler’s will and served him, all European industry and economy worked until the very end on the Reich. So Stalin gave the French a huge gift for which they would never pay. I pay tribute to the heroes of the Resistance, but if it should be appreciated, then the European Resistance did not stand close to our partisan movement, which really fought the Germans and inflicted huge damage on the Wehrmacht.
  28. In the reeds
    0
    5 October 2013 17: 20
    [quote = GrBear] Abram asks Joni.
    A: Is black a color? D: Color.
    A: Is white the color? D: Color.
    A: You see, Vanya, I sold you a color TV.

    Almost all attempts to translate the Bible from Hebrew into other languages, including Russian, were accompanied by assumptions of natural errors due to the complexity of Hebrew and the insufficient level of literacy of the translators. But the fact is a stubborn thing ... In Hebrew there are no two different letters "B and C". As there is no "P and F". These are not four, but two letters. It all depends on where they stand in the word. "B" if it is the first letter in the word, and if the second is already "C". The same applies to "P" - "F". This is the grammar rule of the language. So the name Abraham, if translated incorrectly, turned into Abram. The exceptions are dark. But let's not sink into this darkness. After all, so Ivanushka can turn into de God like Fedor. And you bear go into the reeds with tea to drink
    1. sanecc
      +2
      5 October 2013 17: 36
      ah, HOW IT IS IN THE TOPIC ...... DIRECTLY TO THE POINT
      1. In the reeds
        0
        5 October 2013 17: 52
        And in the subject, if you could not destroy the egg, destroy the dragon while he is still within your power, until he has grown into a monster. Then all those who cleverly footballed this egg away from their gates do not leaders of their peoples-worthless football players
    2. +1
      5 October 2013 18: 46
      Quote: In the reeds
      Almost all attempts to translate the Bible from Hebrew into other languages, including Russian, were accompanied by natural errors, due to the difficulty of the Hebrew language and the insufficient literacy level of translators

      The primitive language of the long-dead savages Hebrew is no more complicated than other languages.
      And why should I translate the Bible from Hebrew, if the source language in which the Bible is written is Latin? The Bible is translated into Hebrew from Latin, and not vice versa.
      The language, which was considered dead during the 18 centuries, becomes the language of everyday communication, the state language of the State of Israel. This was made possible thanks to the efforts of a number of enthusiasts, the most famous of which is Eliezer Ben Yehuda.
      The idea of ​​reviving Hebrew was an integral part of the ideology of Zionism as such, which sought to break with the legacy of the diaspora and with the languages ​​spoken by Jews living under alien dominion.
      1. Glory333
        0
        5 October 2013 18: 57
        The Old Testament of the Bible (Torah) was written when Latin was not yet, naturally written in Hebrew.
        1. +2
          5 October 2013 19: 13
          Quote: Glory333
          The Old Testament of the Bible (Torah) was written when Latin was not yet, naturally written in Hebrew.

          You have the wrong information, Latin, Greek and Slavic writing appeared much earlier than Hebrew. All the antics about Jewish antiquities and Jewish antiquities themselves were composed no earlier than the 19 century.
          The Sinai Bible Codex, Sinai Book (Latin Codex Sinaiticus) is a list of Bibles in Greek, currently considered the oldest uncial parchment manuscript of the Bible.
          The Sinai Codex, along with the ancient papyri, Alexandria, Vatican and a number of other ancient codes, is one of the most valuable sources that allow textologists to recreate the original text of New Testament books. The codex was written in the 4th century and until the middle of the 19th century was located on the Sinai Peninsula in the library of St. Catherine’s Monastery. Part of the Old Testament manuscript was lost, but the New Testament text has been preserved in its entirety. In fact, the Sinai Codex is the only Greek uncial manuscript with the full text of the New Testament. In addition to biblical texts, the codex contains two works by early Christian authors of the 2nd century: “The Epistle of Barnabas” and (partially) the “Shepherd” of Germa.
          1. Glory333
            0
            5 October 2013 19: 20
            I'm afraid that you have the wrong information.
            The Bible has the Old Testament, which is an edited Torah, the Torah is written about 600 BC. Judaism is not based on Christianity; on the contrary, Christianity is a branch of the more ancient religion of Judaism; the same Christ, while still unknown, prayed in the Synagogue.
            1. +3
              5 October 2013 21: 50
              Quote: Glory333
              The Torah is written about 600 BC.

              There is no evidence for this. The oldest Torah is younger than the Guttenberg Bible.
              1. Glory333
                0
                5 October 2013 22: 10
                I don't know :) it is quite possible that it is, although there is reason to believe that the ancient Jews had a written language even when they lived and prospered in Egypt - in "Egyptian slavery".
                1. +3
                  5 October 2013 22: 32
                  Quote: Glory333
                  I don't know :) it is quite possible that it is, although there is reason to believe that the ancient Jews had a written language even when they lived and prospered in Egypt - in "Egyptian slavery".

                  There are no grounds. Egyptian slavery of the Jews is a myth. You can also talk about the American or Russian "slavery" of the Jews. Rest assured, in ancient Egypt the Jews settled down no worse than in modern Russia or the United States, and we can talk about the expulsion of Jews from Egypt, but not about "escape from slavery."
                  1. Glory333
                    0
                    5 October 2013 22: 36
                    I thought so too, that's why I wrote that they flourished and put "slavery" in quotes :)
                    1. +1
                      5 October 2013 22: 42
                      Quote: Glory333
                      I thought so too, that's why I wrote that they flourished and put "slavery" in quotes :)

                      I did not notice your quotes wink ... I do not believe in the history of the "ancient world" at all, it is all invented, including in the "ancient Jews".
                  2. +1
                    6 October 2013 04: 13
                    You are not quite right. Egyptian slavery really was. But the Egyptians managed to overthrow the foreign slaveholders and expel them to their historical homeland. True, it was not possible to destroy them, since the warriors on the chariots sent instead of fighting chose to take good compensation. The Jews, on the other hand, came up with the myth of the parting Red Sea and the abyss that had devoured the pursuers. The winners write the story, and then they clear out all historical documents that contradict their version.
                    1. 0
                      6 October 2013 04: 38
                      Quote: Omskgazmyas
                      You are not quite right. Egyptian slavery really was. But the Egyptians managed to overthrow the foreign slaveholders and expel them to their historical homeland.

                      What you wrote is the history of the Khazar Kaganate. However, it turns out that the Khazar Kaganate is the very "ancient" Egypt, and present-day Egypt was so called to distort history.
                    2. +1
                      6 October 2013 09: 12
                      Quote: Omskgazmyas
                      The Jews, on the other hand, came up with the myth of the parting Red Sea and the abyss that had devoured the pursuers. The winners write the story, and then they clear out all historical documents that contradict their version.

                      In a particular case, history was composed by those who survived the historical process.
                      Where are they, the great Egyptians, scientists, philosophers and builders? And the little traders survived and composed a great story for themselves. The biblical god in ideology and habits is more like a Fuhrer.
                      At the death of Moses, the servant of the Lord, the Lord said to Jesus, the son of Nun, the servant of Moses:
                      2 Moses, my servant, is dead; so get up, go through this Jordan, you and all this people, into the land that I give to them, the sons of Israel.
                      3 Every place on which the feet of your feet set foot, I give you, as I said to Moses:
                      4 from the desert and this Lebanon to the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites; and to the great sea to the west of the sun will be your limits.
                      5 No one will stand before you all the days of your life; and as I was with Moses, so I will be with you: I will not depart from you and I will not leave you.
        2. 0
          5 October 2013 21: 47
          Quote: Glory333
          The Old Testament of the Bible (Torah) was written when Latin was not yet, naturally written in Hebrew.

          And where is this copy of the "ancient" Torah kept? He is absent!
    3. vahatak
      0
      6 October 2013 14: 56
      You forgot one nuance: the Bible was not translated from Hebrew, but from Greek. It was the Greek translation that was considered canonical.
  29. The comment was deleted.
  30. +3
    5 October 2013 18: 39
    Need a clear and clear position. Russian society, especially its young part, should know: to consider the non-aggression treaty between Germany and the USSR as a national disgrace or as a logical victory of the country's leadership and Soviet diplomacy in conditions of connivance to the aggressor by the Western powers.

    The USSR did not need war; therefore, the non-aggression pact with Germany was highly justified and reasonable for him.
    Concerned about the interests and safety of his sworn enemies of Poland, France, England and others, who had similar agreements with Hitler, Stalin was not obliged, he was not a traitor, like spotted Gorbi and the alcoholic Ben Ben.
    The destalinizers deserve a loop; these creatures are no better than the Nazis.
  31. +4
    5 October 2013 18: 48
    Quote: Shogun23
    Those who condemn the pact of 23 August 1939 need to ask one simple question: "What should have been done then?"

    How is it - what? Calmly wait for Hitler to occupy the "Baltic dwarfs", add five divisions to his plus (who has doubts that everyone there would diligently sew on the collar not buttonholes with "cubes" and "sleepers", but national "coils"?) And starts towards Leningrad and Minsk not from new borders, but directly from their suburbs.
    The fate of Leningrad can be predicted, as well as the fate of Murmansk, Arkhangelsk, Petrozavodsk. As well as the northern Lend-Lease.
    Here at the Drummer I read about the lack of allies in the USSR (the same with the late Pikul, a famous konyuktourist, in the "Square of the Fallen Fighters" - he, however, sarcastically recalled Choibalsan). What can you say ... Learn materiel, dear. You look and learn about how the USSR consistently tried to persuade France and England to take joint actions and what came of it.
    1. +3
      5 October 2013 19: 04
      You forgot to add to this list: Kiev, Smolensk, Odessa. Surely they would have fallen in the first days of the war, like Minsk. And then Kharkov, Moscow, Baku and all, the Germans are in damn.
      1. +1
        11 October 2013 08: 45
        This is if German troops suddenly teleport through Poland.
    2. Shogun23
      -2
      5 October 2013 19: 28
      Quote: Moore
      The fate of Leningrad can be predicted, as well as the fate of Murmansk, Arkhangelsk, Petrozavodsk. As well as the northern Lend-Lease.

      They will drink Bavarian beer and ride on chic autobahns.
      1. Shogun23
        0
        8 October 2013 01: 41
        Who does not understand that it was sarcasm, please forgive me, I did not want to mislead you, and I am writing about this now. THIS WAS SARCASM !!!
  32. +4
    5 October 2013 19: 56
    Quote: Drummer
    And if you had turned a little differently, then Hitler would have been able to avoid war, having lost popularity under the weight of economic problems, would have remained in history as a flashy misunderstanding like Misha Saakashvili.


    Well, no, Hitler is a Western project of aggression against the USSR. He could economically break it even in 33, so on the contrary, the indemnity was canceled.

    He was supposed to attack the USSR together with Poland, (from East Prussia through the Baltic states having supplies along the Polish-controlled corridor). And on the western border of Germany would be Anglo-French divisions. Poland would fall to Ukraine and Belarus (with all the problems for the occupiers, Germany, the Baltic states, the north of Russia and then, as the British determine).
    At a certain point, you need to push these sides together (for example, Bosnia, the Croats fight with the Muslims against the Serbs, then the Croats beat the Muslims with the Serbs) and so on ad infinitum - this is the dream of the Anglo-Skunks (and with the help of the Franks to control the agility of Germany). Here is their plan.
    1. Glory333
      -2
      5 October 2013 20: 09
      Yes, economically, Germany as a half-socialist country was very successful, it is in the Western countries as usual there was a crisis. Any speculation about the economic collapse of Germany is only an attempt to discredit its successful economic model, the German economy did not fall apart even under the conditions of a total war and under the bombs of the allies, unlike the countries of the West who manage to destroy their economies in peacetime.
      1. +2
        6 October 2013 09: 28
        Quote: Glory333
        Yes, economically, Germany as a half-socialist country was very successful, it is in the Western countries as usual there was a crisis. Any speculation about the economic collapse of Germany is only an attempt to discredit its successful economic model, the German economy did not fall apart even under the conditions of a total war and under the bombs of the allies, unlike the countries of the West who manage to destroy their economies in peacetime.

        In Nazi Germany there was not the slightest sign of socialism, and no successful economic model. Churchill asserts this without hesitation, and he was a contemporary and participant in all the events of that time.
        Under the fruitful influence of American and British loans, the restoration of Germany went very quickly. Its trade expanded with incredible speed, increasing the country's domestic welfare
        Churchill, "World War II" book. 1 1949 London.
        .

        The German economy collapsed immediately after the attack on the USSR and rested solely on the robbery of the occupied territories and on the use of the entire industry of Central and Western Europe.
  33. -6
    5 October 2013 20: 24
    Yes, for Natalia Loktionova there are no moral principles. According to her logic, if two people raped a woman, then the one who did it the second did not do anything reprehensible, at that time she was already raped, therefore there is no fact of rape by the second, despite the fact that they planned rape in advance, because "everyone does it." ..
    I hope Loktionova will not have to endure this on herself, otherwise God forbid, the opinion will change ...
    1. Glory333
      +2
      5 October 2013 20: 29
      Ha ha In the garden of elderberry and uncle in Kiev.
      If anyone raped anyone, it was the Poles who raped national minorities - Ukrainians, Germans and Belarusians.
      1. -1
        5 October 2013 21: 00
        Quote: Glory333
        Ha ha In the garden of elderberry and uncle in Kiev.

        Well, I’m glad for you, of course, judging by the flag you have both, but what is the relation to the topic of your passages about rape of Ukrainians and Germans?
        1. Glory333
          +2
          5 October 2013 21: 41
          Just your passages about raping women have nothing to do with the topic, I just translated them into a real plane - to the endless terror of the Poles against the population of territories illegally attached to Poland.
          1. -4
            5 October 2013 22: 08
            Quote: Glory333
            I just translated them into a real plane - to the endless terror of the Poles against the population of territories illegally attached to Poland.

            You were not transferred to the plane, but generally "taken to the side streets."
            At the expense of illegality. The USSR IS NOT THE SUCCESSOR of the Russian Empire, respectively, no territorial claims to either Poland or Romania could have a priori. And your message to the fact that Stalin felt sorry for the Ukrainians living in Poland is simply ridiculous, six years before that he starved the Ukrainians with hunger regardless of the victims, and after the capture of Western Ukraine, wagons with "liberated" Ukrainians began to flow into Siberia, and in 1941 ... Germans in Lvov Germans were met by corpses filled with corpses with the same "liberated" Ukrainians.
            1. Glory333
              0
              5 October 2013 22: 26
              In fact, the USSR was the successor to RI.
              In 1933, the Ukrainians were killed by Trotskyists-agents of world capital on orders from the United States; it was not enough for the rulers of the United States (West) to starve their citizens during the so-called. The "Great Depression" was a specially organized crisis, which is why they ordered their agents to arrange famine in the USSR, in which there was no crisis even close.
              In Ukraine’s territories occupied by Poland, many disloyal to the USSR and generally to socialism divorced naturally, and some of them were subjected to repression, the size of which, by the way, is greatly exaggerated.
              1. -5
                5 October 2013 23: 12
                Quote: Glory333
                In 1933, Trotskyites-agents of world capital were stained by Ukrainians on orders from the United States, the rulers of the United States (West)

                Not a damn thing about how you suffered ... I have not heard such a revelation, it seems to you that Stalin is a US agent and also a Trotskyist ... And there is something in this, something crazy that requires medical supervision. ..
                Quote: Glory333
                that’s part of them that were repressed, the dimensions of which, by the way, are greatly exaggerated.

                It does not matter how many criminals committed the killings, one or five, he is still a criminal.
                1. Glory333
                  +4
                  5 October 2013 23: 40
                  In my opinion, it doesn’t work out all your way, it means your doctors too, Stalin just stopped the famine in 1934 and he shot many American Trotsky agents in 1937 and in the following years - tell me, was the execution of these executioners a crime of Stalin? However, in the West they say so, there even the assassination of Trotsky, who organized the killing of millions of innocent people, without hesitation, is called a tragedy.
                  1. -3
                    6 October 2013 09: 21
                    Quote: Glory333
                    Stalin just stopped the famine in 1934 and he shot many American Trotskyist agents in 1937

                    Oh how! You are less and less showing signs of rationality. You for yourself have come up with a scheme according to which Stalin relieves all responsibility for the crimes committed, all committed by American agents who were then punished for it. But how is it incomprehensible how some agents involved in the deaths were punished, and others not?
                    For example, Foma Akimovich Leoniuk, who was in 1932-1933, was the head of the Secret Operations Directorate of the GPU under the SNK of the Ukrainian SSR, the deputy chairman of the GPU at the SNK of the Ukrainian SSR survived Stalin and died in 1967. How was an American intelligence agent and one of the organizers of the Holodomor able to hide from the vigilant Stalinist gaze? And he is not the only one, many of those involved in the mass deaths of people survived Stalin. In your opinion, some were American agents and they were punished for their involvement in the famine, while others who were also involved in the famine were innocent? And how does something fit in your head between convolutions?
                    1. Glory333
                      +2
                      6 October 2013 12: 10
                      I will ignore personal attacks :)
                      First, any crime must have a motive, what motive did Stalin have to starve the people of his Empire, his workers and peasants, future soldiers in the impending war? Obviously, the rulers of the West and their many Trotskyite agents, who systematically engaged in sabotage and sabotage, had motive for starvation in the USSR — these were facts and not fiction. An irrefutable fact is that the Stalin government fought pests to eliminate the damage they caused, which is why in 1934 there were significant deliveries of food and seeds to Ukraine and other parts of the USSR that stopped the famine. It is interesting that the rulers of the USA also had a motive to destroy their American population, which they did with the help of the great depression.
                      Why haven't all US agents escaped punishment? Mainly because of the pressure of the West in every way protecting its own. In the West, a huge howl was raised (and still continues) due to the destruction of the Trotskyists, and the USSR, in light of the approaching war, was in dire need of supplies of equipment for its industry. There were also other reasons.
                      In the United States, no one was punished for organizing the American famine - how do you explain this?
                    2. Misantrop
                      +1
                      6 October 2013 12: 38
                      Quote: Nayhas
                      For example, Foma Akimovich Leoniuk, who was in 1932-1933, was the head of the Secret Operations Directorate of the GPU under the SNK of the Ukrainian SSR, the deputy chairman of the GPU at the SNK of the Ukrainian SSR survived Stalin and died in 1967. How was an American intelligence agent and one of the organizers of the Holodomor able to hide from the vigilant Stalinist gaze?
                      Probably because he was under the gaze of Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev (who is in time for starvation in Ukraine has a much closer relationship, as well as for punitive operations on its territory) wink
            2. +3
              5 October 2013 22: 35
              Quote: Nayhas
              USSR IS NOT THE SUCCESSOR OF THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE

              That's a moot point. Correctly it must be said that the West will never recognize Russia as the successor of the Russian Empire. This is legal casuistry directed against Russia, because it is obvious that Russia is the state that used to be the Russian Empire, with some, unprincipled changes in the border.
              1. Glory333
                +3
                5 October 2013 22: 57
                I do not agree with you :) The West also recognized the USSR as the assignee of the Russian Empire when it began to demand royal debts with the USSR :)
                In general, it is important that the USSR itself considered itself a legal successor and had very good reasons, by the way, our country agreed to discuss the issue of imperial debts, of course, taking into account its interests, I recall from the West that they demanded that the damage from the intervention be paid.
                1. -6
                  5 October 2013 23: 28
                  Quote: Glory333
                  I do not agree with you :) The West also recognized the USSR as the assignee of the Russian Empire when it began to demand royal debts with the USSR :)

                  Because the Entente countries believed that the new state that arose on the fragments of the Russian Empire considers itself a successor. However, the Bolsheviks announced that this was not so, and decided on that. Of course, the country continued to be called Russia, but legally it was not, and even if it was called a cargo, then wrap up your territorial ambitions where everyone thought ...
                  1. Glory333
                    +3
                    6 October 2013 00: 38
                    The Bolsheviks, and in particular Stalin, just declared the USSR as the legal successor of the Republic of Ingushetia, so no need, I can quote, I remember that they said when they demanded Moldova. Legally, the countries of the West, recognizing the USSR, also recognized it as the assignee of the Republic of Ingushetia.
                  2. +4
                    6 October 2013 09: 39
                    Nayhas
                    Because the Entente countries believed that the new state that arose on the fragments of the Russian Empire considers itself a successor. However, the Bolsheviks announced that this was not so, and decided

                    Entente countries could believe that they wanted anything, they had no rights to determine the rights and borders of states.
                    All the same arrogant merciless meanness and unbridled arrogance from a position of strength, like the modern policy of the West.
              2. -1
                5 October 2013 23: 23
                Quote: Setrac
                That's a moot point.

                And what's controversial? The Bolsheviks themselves announced this, no one pulled their tongue. For Finland, for example, the USSR made territorial claims not because it was part of the Russian Empire, but because the border was close to Leningrad. In Bessarabia, the claims against Romania were somewhat justified, because it was part of the USR which subsequently entered the USSR, i.e. as part of an already new state, and not the successor to RI.
                1. +2
                  5 October 2013 23: 38
                  Quote: Nayhas
                  And what's controversial? The Bolsheviks themselves announced this.

                  Well, where are these Bolsheviks?
                  Quote: Nayhas
                  no one pulled their tongue.

                  Even as pulled by the tongue. Through the efforts of ALL Entente.
                  1. -1
                    6 October 2013 09: 26
                    Quote: Setrac
                    Well, where are these Bolsheviks?

                    On the Red Square, one of them lies in the mausoleum. So what? I did not understand your promise.
                    Quote: Setrac
                    Even as pulled by the tongue. Through the efforts of ALL Entente.

                    Do not make excuses; in this case they have absolutely no value. Pull-not pulled, what's the difference? In fact, the USSR is not the successor of the Russian Empire and the reasons why the USSR decided so are not important.
                2. +2
                  6 October 2013 09: 51
                  Quote: Nayhas
                  And what's controversial? The Bolsheviks themselves announced this, no one pulled their tongue. For Finland, for example, the USSR made territorial claims not because it was part of the Russian Empire, but because the border was close to Leningrad. In Bessarabia, the claims against Romania were somewhat justified, because it was part of the USR which subsequently entered the USSR, i.e. as part of an already new state, and not the successor to RI.

                  Are you lying intentionally or through ignorance?
                  Karelia has ALWAYS been part of Russia-Russia and had nothing to do with Finland. In 1918, taking advantage of the civil war, Chukhn captured Karelia, forcing the RSFSR in 1920 to agree to a peace treaty.
                  The Poles captured part of Ukraine and Belarus, attacking these republics that were part of the RSFSR.
                  The USSR, the undoubted successor of the RSFSR and the territorial requirements for the arrogant invaders who took advantage of the civil war, are extremely fair. For such vile tricks relies on a complete sweep of the initiators of attacks and seizures. Finns and Poles got off easily.
                  1. 0
                    6 October 2013 21: 10
                    Quote: Corsair5912
                    Are you lying intentionally or through ignorance?
                    Karelia has ALWAYS been part of Russia-Russia and had nothing to do with Finland. In 1918, taking advantage of the civil war, Chukhn captured Karelia, forcing the RSFSR in 1920 to agree to a peace treaty.

                    Give literally the claims voiced by Finland in 1939, find there at least one word about "Rus-Russia".
    2. Shogun23
      0
      5 October 2013 20: 39
      it’s stupid to translate the comparison to the household level, since international politics is ten times more complex mechanism, with many introductory
      1. 0
        5 October 2013 20: 56
        Quote: Shogun23
        it’s stupid to translate the comparison to the household level, since international politics is ten times more complex mechanism, with many introductory

        Well, if you think that everything is different there ... In your opinion, if Japan were to be in December 1941. would invade the territory of the USSR, would you have the right to do so? Well, in terms of big politics, of course ...
        1. Glory333
          0
          5 October 2013 21: 57
          Yes, if the USSR occupied Japanese lands originally inhabited by the Japanese and terrorized the Japanese population there, it is quite possible that Japan would have justified reasons to act.
          1. -1
            5 October 2013 23: 06
            Quote: Glory333
            Japan would have a fair reason to act

            Oh how! And international law on the side? The Germans believed that the Czechs infringed on the rights in the Sudetenland and annexed the Sudetenland. Everyone calls the Munich Agreement criminal, but in your opinion is everything right?
            1. Glory333
              +1
              5 October 2013 23: 48
              Legally, the seizure of the Sudetenland region by Czechoslovakia without the referenda for self-determination of residents was illegal, the same thing happened with part of the lands of the German Empire included in Poland, of course these issues are controversial because the Czechs and Poles presented their arguments for these seizures.
              What exactly was illegal was discrimination against the inhabitants of these regions, which in the summer of 1939 turned into open terror in Poland with robberies, rapes and massacres.
            2. +1
              6 October 2013 04: 29
              Let me be curious, which countries, besides Russia, now consider the "Munich Agreement" criminal? In my opinion, the routine peace and border treaty known to the world as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact has been declared criminal for more than 20 years. One of many, then concluded by many European countries with Germany.
  34. wax
    +6
    5 October 2013 20: 47
    the agreement with Germany concluded by Stalin in August 39 did not go beyond the framework of generally accepted international political norms

    The Soviet Union until the last year sought an alliance with non-fascist Western prostitute countries, and when they began joyfully rubbing their hands that they could remain aloof from the war with Hitler, which was directed by all of them to the USSR, Stalin made a brilliant move, concluding a non-aggression pact with Germany, giving Hitler two years to conquer all of Europe. After that, in a future war, the USSR could no longer stand alone against Hitler. Stalin wiped the West with their own snot, so much that they still cannot calm down, although Stalin’s heirs surrendered the USSR to them a quarter century ago, not only without war, but also without a fight.
  35. +6
    5 October 2013 20: 51
    The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is an outstanding victory for Soviet diplomacy in the almost hopeless position of the USSR among enemies.
    1. He tore the anti-Soviet bunch of Berlin-Tokyo. After all, the successful battles with the ALLY of Germany - Japan on Khalkhin Gol have just ended. Japan in response harbored a grudge, concluded a similar pact with the USSR and did not attack the USSR in 41, no matter how Germany requested it.
    2. Enemy No.-1 for the USSR: Poland is defeated by the enemy No.-2 by Germany. The eagle tore the hyena. A possible coalition of enemies has weakened.
    3. Almost without loss, nishtyaks were obtained in the form of memory and ST. Part of the new territories of the USSR was given to Lithuania. This impressed the Balts so much that they, in the face of imminent war, made their choice of a lesser evil: they voluntarily became part of the USSR.
    4. The USSR squeezed out of Germany maximum economic assistance. I will not list nishtyaks received from Germany for German loans, you yourself know.
    5. The war was postponed to 2 of the year, which, with the rapid development of the USSR, significantly strengthened it, at the same time Germany fought, spending people and resources.
    1. -6
      5 October 2013 20: 58
      Quote: Omskgazmyas
      I will not list nishtyaks received from Germany for German loans, you yourself know.

      The main beggar that Stalin received is the common border with Germany. Cool nishtyachok is not it? Now Hitler could suddenly attack Stalin, too, probably without a trace?
      1. +3
        5 October 2013 21: 11
        Horror. The border with Germany would not be at Brest and Lviv, but at Minsk and Zhytomyr. Plus the Baltic states. From these positions, what, it was impossible to attack the USSR suddenly?
        Sometimes it's better to chew than talk.
        1. -5
          5 October 2013 21: 55
          Quote: Omskgazmyas
          The border with Germany would not be at Brest and Lviv, but at Minsk and Zhytomyr

          And where does such confidence come from? Stalin in August 1939 had no doubt that Poland would fall?
          Quote: Omskgazmyas
          Plus the Baltic states.

          Plus what? The Baltic states did not have German troops on their territory.
          Or again "but if" or "most likely it would be so"?
          Quote: Omskgazmyas
          Sometimes it's better to chew than talk.

          So ktozh does not give you that, in Omsk gas and meat is over?
          1. +2
            6 October 2013 04: 51
            Quote: Nayhas
            The border with Germany would not be at Brest and Lviv, but at Minsk and Zhytomyr. And where does such confidence come from? Stalin in August 1939 had no doubt that Poland would fall?

            Trying to catch your train of thought:
            a) If there wasn’t the MR Pact, would Germany not attack Poland, fearing that the USSR would stand up for its enemy and there wouldn’t be a 2MB?
            b) Or Germany, having defeated Poland, would have stopped in front of Brest and Lviv? There is none, she was already there, despite the Pact, and there were even clashes between Soviet and German troops.
            c) Or would Hitler not occupy the memory, ST and part of Polish Lithuania, but would create alternative Israel or some other puppet there, and therefore there would be no common border between the USSR and Germany in 1939?
            I look forward to clarifying your thoughts.
            1. -1
              6 October 2013 09: 55
              Quote: Omskgazmyas
              a) If there wasn’t the MR Pact, would Germany not attack Poland, fearing that the USSR would stand up for its enemy and there wouldn’t be a 2MB?

              If the USSR had not reacted to Germany’s proposals, even if the negotiations with Britain and France had stalled, war against Poland would have been possible with some probability. If the USSR declared that the attack on Poland would be regarded as aggression against the USSR, then Hitler would certainly not have been shined by a war on two fronts and there would have been no war. Hitler, though an evil tyrant, is not a foolish person.
              Quote: Omskgazmyas
              b) Or Germany, having defeated Poland, would have stopped in front of Brest and Lviv? There is none, she was already there, despite the Pact, and there were even clashes between Soviet and German troops.

              Germany would wage war until the complete occupation of Poland, that is certain. But no matter how long the war went on, by September 17 the mobilization process in Poland had reached its maximum.
              The clashes between the Wehrmacht and the Red Army took place due to ignorance of the location of the allied forces, when the enemy was ascertained, the fighting stopped.
              I understand your idea, this is an old song that the Wehrmacht would go to Moscow without stopping, and once in 1941. the army was not ready, then in 1939. and even more so.
              This is outright nonsense. The Wehrmacht had no chances to continue the offensive, I am not going to paint here such "trifles" as preparing reserves, preparing a transport network for a large-scale offensive and many other tasks that Hitler and his command would have to solve for an attack not on Luxembourg, but to the USSR. The most important thing. Suppose Germany would occupy Poland by October 1, 1939, then the Wehrmacht would set a world record for preparing for a new war with a stronger enemy in advance, spending only a month on it. And on November 1, 1939. launched an offensive on Moscow, head over heels in the snow without winter uniforms, on the same willpower? How does it fit in your head at all? Why do you consider Stalin a ram who is afraid that Germany will suddenly attack the USSR after passing Poland in the fall?
              Quote: Omskgazmyas
              c) Or would Hitler not occupy the memory, ST and part of Polish Lithuania, but would create alternative Israel or some other puppet there, and therefore there would be no common border between the USSR and Germany in 1939?

              It would be possible, but how long would it be? Or do you think that Hitler would further invade the Baltic states with mobilized France behind him?
              1. +1
                6 October 2013 11: 45
                Let us return to the sources, why I answered you: You wrote:

                Quote: Nayhas
                The main beggar that Stalin received is the common border with Germany. Cool nishtyachok is not it? Now Hitler could suddenly attack Stalin, too, probably without a trace?

                I replied that with or without the USSR's "attack" on the already non-existent Poland, a common border between Germany and the USSR would still appear, only 150-200 km to the east. The position of the USSR in the coming war with Germany would be worse.

                Further considerations do not matter.
                1. -3
                  6 October 2013 21: 27
                  Quote: Omskgazmyas
                  I replied that with or without the USSR's "attack" on the already non-existent Poland, a common border between Germany and the USSR would still appear, only 150-200 km to the east.

                  As of August 1939 it was not 100% obvious; moreover, had the USSR of Germany declared its dissatisfaction with Germany’s decision to liquidate Poland, there would have been no war. The USSR could prevent the existence of a common border with Germany, there were many tools, from supporting Poland with arms, ending with participation in the war on the side of Poland. And it would not matter if it was a bluff or real intentions, Germany in 1939. was not able to wage a large-scale war.
                  Quote: Omskgazmyas
                  The positions of the USSR in the coming war with Germany would be worse.

                  What exactly? The Red Army left Western Ukraine in a week, on June 28, i.e. 6 days later the Germans took Minsk. How did the presence of Western Ukraine help the USSR? I am not waiting for an answer, because it simply cannot be. I have already met this occasion, it was invented by the official historians of the USSR, while none of them gave any arguments. Thinking in "axioms" is the principle of official history.
                  1. Misantrop
                    +1
                    6 October 2013 21: 32
                    Quote: Nayhas
                    there were a lot of tools, starting with Poland supporting arms, ending with participation in the war on the side of Poland.
                    An hostile power that has gigantic territorial claims specifically against Russia? Maybe now you advise Japan to sponsor the latest development weapons? Well, they will appreciate ... lol
                  2. Ulan
                    +3
                    7 October 2013 11: 03
                    YOU don’t know geography either. Minsk is located in Belarus and not in Ukraine.
                    You are a respected unbridled dreamer, as apparently your idol Rezun.
                    The USSR did not have tools to prevent a war.
                    The Poles did not want help from the USSR.
                    You apparently do not know the fact that in the very first days the Polish ambassador was called to the People's Commissariat of Foreign Affairs and asked what assistance the USSR could render to Poland.
                    This and ... he replied that he would think. So he thought until Poland fell under the blows of Germany.
                    However, the USSR managed to supply some cotton for the production of gunpowder to Poland.
              2. Ulan
                +3
                7 October 2013 10: 57
                Ofiget. On September 17-18, the Polish government and the leadership of the army have already fled the country. What mobilization is better for the mob?

                Poland began to mobilize BEFORE the invasion of Germany. This USSR was required for the general mobilization of 2 weeks. And how much did Poland need? Six months?
                If the USSR declared .... yes are you out of your mind? This is really utter nonsense. What a joy for England, they only dreamed about it. On what basis did the USSR have to declare this?
                This despite the fact that Poland categorically rejected any assistance to the USSR.
                Well, you give. Well and a dreamer.
                Do you even know that in the proposed treaty between the USSR-England and France, guarantees were provided for Poland, which she categorically opposed.
                Similar guarantees should have been given to the Baltic republics in the event of an German attack. Having learned about this, the Balts threw a tantrum, saying that it was an encroachment on their independence.
                Even then, they dreamed of lying under Germany.
                And you are not only a dreamer, you are also cheating, distorting what your opponents say to you.
                Nobody here claimed that Hitler would immediately go to Moscow after the victory over Poland, but the war between Germany and the USSR would certainly be if the USSR entered it on the side of Poland, without allies, without Poland’s request, on their own initiative. reason to blame the USSR as an aggressor and gave reason to unite the whole of Europe against us.
          2. Ulan
            +2
            7 October 2013 10: 45
            "And where does this confidence come from? Stalin in August 1939 did not doubt that Poland would fall?"
            Stalin had no doubt that there would be a war and secured the USSR from being drawn into this war.
            And how events would develop there, he could only speculate.
            If the allies of Poland, England and France, fulfilled their obligations to Poland as expected, Germany would certainly have been defeated and the USSR would remain on its borders.
            But England bombard Berlin with leaflets and the French on the Maginot Line played football.
            Stalin did the only thing possible in that situation.
      2. Ulan
        +2
        7 October 2013 10: 38
        Amazing! Some kind of kindergarten. Do you seriously believe that there wouldn’t be a pact and there wouldn’t be a common border between the USSR and Germany?
        Dear, the common border would still be only much to the east. Do you really think that Hitler would have stopped in the east on the "Curzon Line"?
        Amazing naivety.
    2. namejs
      -2
      6 October 2013 00: 42
      Quote: Omskgazmyas
      Almost without loss, nishtyaks were obtained in the form of memory and ST. Part of the new territories of the USSR was given to Lithuania. This impressed the Balts so much that they, in the face of imminent war, made their choice of a lesser evil: they voluntarily became part of the USSR.


      Can I have more evidence that Latvia entered the USSR voluntarily?
      I don’t even ask for specific documents. Just you know the facts.

      Thank you
      1. +2
        6 October 2013 05: 11
        On July 14 on 1940, in the extraordinary parliamentary elections of Latvia, a bloc of working people won. In Latvia, the turnout was 94,8%, for the Bloc of the working people, 97,8% of the vote was cast. The new parliament proclaimed the creation of a new state: the Latvian SSR and adopted the Declaration on the entry of the Latvian SSR into the USSR. On August 5, the Latvian SSR was accepted into the USSR by decision of the Supreme Council of the USSR. The entry of the Baltic states into the USSR was recognized de jure by Sweden, Spain, the Netherlands, Australia, India, Iran, New Zealand, Finland, de facto - Great Britain and a number of other countries.
        1. namejs
          -2
          6 October 2013 14: 44
          Quote: Omskgazmyas
          On July 14, 1940, at a special parliamentary election in Latvia, a bloc of working people won. In Latvia, the turnout was 94,8%, 97,8% of the votes were cast for the Labor People Bloc


          Are you not embarrassed by the fact that only one list (a glimpse of the working people) participated in these "elections", and the candidates of the second list (the democratic bloc) were arrested a day before they were elected?
          And about the turnout you are not funny? There were no real choices in the world where the turnout would be over 80-90% ...

          Quote: Omskgazmyas
          The new parliament proclaimed the creation of a new state: the Latvian SSR and adopted the Declaration on the entry of the Latvian SSR into the USSR.

          Such questions are rightfully decided by the people. Toast by referendum and takoga nebylo.
          Quote: Omskgazmyas
          recognized


          This happened for many reasons (the dictator believed the promises of Moscow that Latvia would eventually remain independent states since the last ultimatum demanded a change of government promoted the actions of the new satellite government to such images, giving some legitimacy to the whole process) but ultimately all these countries apologized to the Latvian people for what they did (they were afraid of the Soviet Union). But neither the United States nor the United Kingdom and France did not recognize the Fatk occupation. It is also unrecognized by a number of other states like Argentina or Brazil).

          Only in Russia there are few who wish to condemn and deplore the actions of the USSR in 1940
          1. +4
            6 October 2013 15: 54
            But doesn’t it bother you that in a referendum on the fate of the USSR in 1991 70% of the Soviet people supported the preservation of the Soviet Union and what did you obey? Then when you argue, would Hitler attack Poland or not attack if Germany did not sign the treaty? I told you I attacked, moreover, Hitler declared to his generals before the invasion, Most of all I’m afraid now that there will be some kind of bastard with peace proposals, when you blame the USSR for not helping Poland. And why should we owe it help? A state that had territorial claims to all its neighbors, including the Soviet Union and no small ones, was not without reason that Churchill called Poland the hyena of Europe. Moreover, the Poles prepared in their self-glare to wash their boots before entering Berlin in Spree. Now about the offended Latvia. Answer me the question, what did the Latvian red arrows during the Civil War in Russia? Correctly helped establish the Soviet power. I hope this statement is rejected And now the question is: What are you whining when this very power saved by the Latvians came to you? That is, when the Peters shot, killed, planted, raped the Russians in Russia, it was good, and when this same power, established with your help, came to Latvia, it became bad. And it turns out that if some West doesn’t take a deliberate act, it’s politics, if Russia is a crime with aggravating consequences. And what is it called by lawyers?
            1. lexe
              +1
              6 October 2013 16: 04
              Answer me the question, what did the red Latvian arrows do during the Civil War on the territory of Russia? They helped to establish Soviet power correctly. I hope you will not deny this statement.

              100% hit.
              That is, when the Peters shot, killed, planted, raped the Russians in Russia, it was good, and when this same power established with your help came to Latvia, it became bad.

              But what are we actually waiting for? When there will be lawsuits against all these iron arrows? So stop the whining of the Balts - we got what we ourselves created.
              1. namejs
                0
                6 October 2013 22: 24
                Quote: Lexi
                But what are we actually waiting for? When there will be lawsuits against all these iron arrows? So stop the whining of the Balts - we got what we ourselves created.


                Can you prove Laticea’s involvement in the service of Lenin in the Republic of Latvia? If yes, please, fact!
            2. namejs
              0
              6 October 2013 21: 16
              Quote: Motors1991
              But you do not mind that in a referendum on the fate of the USSR in 1991, 70% of the Soviet people supported the preservation of the Soviet Union and that they obeyed?

              Dear Motors
              I don’t understand, what is the connection with the fictitious parliamentary elections of 1940?
              The fact is that only those who need Moscow were allowed to take part in these elections — one idinstviny block of working people and communists .. The opponents were arrested before choosing ... What kind of choice is it with just one list?
              1. Misantrop
                +2
                6 October 2013 21: 36
                Quote: Namejs
                I don’t understand, what is the connection with the fictitious parliamentary elections of 1940?
                The fact is that only those who need Moscow were allowed to take part in these elections — one idinstviny block of working people and communists .. The opponents were arrested before choosing ... What kind of choice is it with just one list?
                Yes, exactly the same as in the 90s. Or the whole Baltic States UNANIMOUSLY wanted in Europe and NATO? This does not bother you, but if the result is in the other direction, then this is no longer European ... lol
                1. namejs
                  -3
                  6 October 2013 22: 47
                  Integration into the EU and NATO was carried out by political parties elected by the people. The parties in power changed but those who came for integration into the EU and NATO came (just those who were against usually usually voted less). It was a very gold company and the people at the end of the Canzov voted voluntarily in a referendum for accession to the EU. Latvia joined NATO based on the security situation. Latvia’s NATO membership guarantees us security against any external aggressors.

                  That’s why you’re starting to mention different referendums, but you’ll not say anything about fictitious parliamentary elections in Latvia held under the auspices of the USSR in the summer of 1940. What is your position? Do you condemn the illegal actions of the USSR or are you proud of them?
                  1. Misantrop
                    0
                    6 October 2013 23: 19
                    Quote: Namejs
                    Integration into the EU and NATO was carried out by political parties elected by the people. The parties in power changed but those who came for integration into the EU and NATO came (just those who were against usually usually voted less).
                    And all this is purely democratic, without any political fraud. Yeah, you can believe ... lol I was not in Latvia at that time, but in Estonia I saw enough of this "democracy". Go to another place to tell fairy tales, here people have already left kindergarten age request
            3. namejs
              0
              6 October 2013 22: 20
              Quote: Motors1991
              Answer me the question, what did the red Latvian arrows do during the Civil War in Russia?


              Well, the fact that they are still Latvians does not mean that they are somehow connected with the Republic of Latvia. Latvian red stilts fought for Soviet advice and against Latvian independence. In other words, they are the same enemies of Latvia as the rest of the Bolsheviks.
              Quote: Motors1991
              : What are you whining about when this very power saved by the Latvians came to you? That is, when the Peters shot, killed, imprisoned, raped the Russians in Russia it was good, and when this very power established with your help came to Latvia it became bad

              It is not necessary to confuse nationality with the subject of international relations to states. Red arrows numb with the state of Latvia no relationship
              Quote: Motors1991
              an act committed by the West is politics, if Russia is an aggravated crime. And whatever lawyers call it


              Why did you decide that I look at war crimes such as England or Germany differently than the crimes of the USSR?
              1. Misantrop
                0
                6 October 2013 23: 22
                Quote: Namejs
                Latvian stillers fought for the soviets and against the independence of Latvia. In other words, they are the same enemies of Latvia as the rest of the Bolsheviks.
                Does Latvia have any friends on the planet? Or solid enemies around and inside?
                1. namejs
                  0
                  7 October 2013 22: 24
                  What do friends mean? In politics, there are different varieties of unions and other types of partnership. If you had in mind that it is Latvia who has friends of all the countries of NATO and the EU.
                  Of course we have a special relationship with Lithuanians and Estonians
            4. namejs
              0
              6 October 2013 22: 23
              Quote: Motors1991
              that he didn’t help Poland. And why on earth should we help her?


              Well, at least because the USSR has always positioned itself as a fighter against fascism. Yes, and even if you didn’t help, first of all, why did you stop deliveries to Germany? Why did they hold a parade in Brest-Litovsk?

              Why obligations — no — are not required. Usually, if someone falls regardless of who he is to me, I will give him a hand if his life depends on it.
              1. +3
                6 October 2013 22: 38
                Quote: Namejs
                Usually if someone falls regardless of who he is to me, I will give him a hand if his life depends on it.

                for example, how did you give a helping hand to the USA in Iraq and Afghanistan! For some reason, the Baltic states give a helping hand to the aggressor, and not to the victim.
                1. namejs
                  0
                  7 October 2013 22: 33
                  I must clarify that Latvia has not been in a single moment of the state of war not with Afghanistan, not with Iraq. In both cases, the Latvian Armed Forces participated as peacekeeping forces even after the end of conventional military operations (to clear the area, guard schools and mortgages, maintain order, etc.). If, in the case of Iraq, the matter is ambiguously divided in Latvia itself (since the war of precedence without the permission of the UN Security Council), then it is much simpler with Afghanistan, the mandate of the UN Security Council was given there. As I hope, you well know that in the UN Security Council all decisions are taken unanimously and the standing member of the Security Council of Russia and Russia itself supported the integration into Afghanistan.
                  As I already said, Latvia was not a participant in the war, but only to the peacekeepers who were entrusted with other specific tasks, and this is not just some kind of occupation.
              2. Ulan
                +1
                7 October 2013 11: 08
                The order for the parade in Brest to the "Studio".
                If you served in the army, you should know that in the army everything happens only by order.
                If the order to hold the parade does not exist, then it was something else. In addition, Krivosheev could not, on his own initiative, without such permission from the higher authorities.
                There is no evidence that Krivoshevv’s request for permission existed and no answer exists.
                1. namejs
                  0
                  7 October 2013 22: 42
                  Quote: Ulan
                  The order for the parade in Brest to the "Studio".


                  I just don’t know if such an order exists.

                  Quote: Ulan
                  If the order to hold the parade does not exist, then it was something else. In addition, Krivosheev could not, on his own initiative, without such permission from the higher authorities.

                  I don’t know if Krivosheev could have done this or not, but inside the Red Army it was perceived as a parade or a walk, it didn’t matter to me. This is both on the subject of legal technology, the formalization of the norm (as you say about the need for an order to conduct, there is no order and there was no parade) and the actual circumstances "summarize" into legal consequences. That is, if this "walk" through all the actual circumstances coincide with the signs of a military parade, then steam consequences flow from this, which would be in a real parade.
                  If all the ceremonies in the parade and everyone walks like in a parade and everything happens like in a parade then this is the actual and there is a parade. It doesn’t matter if the internal regulations for holding the military parade were observed.

                  I apologize if it’s hard to understand. It is very difficult to correctly translate legal terms.
      2. Ulan
        0
        7 October 2013 11: 04
        Why not documents? The decision of the Lithuanian Parliament on joining the USSR. This is quite enough.
        1. namejs
          0
          7 October 2013 22: 43
          Please read my previous posts. I clarified everything there
  36. +4
    5 October 2013 21: 04
    Quote: Nayhas
    therefore, there is no fact of rape by the second, in spite of the fact that they planned rape in advance, because "everyone does it" ...


    I already wrote once, whose lands Poland owned showed the Volyn massacre. They took their property from a thief who stole property during the fire (this is both the sixteenth century and the twentieth century).

    Even the western guys themselves determined what, whose (Curzon).

    And repenting about this is ridiculous and stupid.

    Learn from Britain. A country with "eternal interests" did not have a problem with morality, as a result of the absence of the latter.
  37. lexe
    -2
    5 October 2013 21: 14
    I don’t want to get into political discussions.
    But the fact that the plans of the Wehrmacht for the invasion of the USSR were painted in detail and an important basis for these plans was the 1st all-devastating blow with prepared infrastructure in the form of excellent supplies, airfields, less time for the redeployment of troops .. this is a fact!
    And the fact that the main thing is to destroy the personnel army quickly with the first blow and then quickly overcome new Soviet lands due to motorization is also a fact!
    And the Germans were more comfortable purely practically on the military to strike from a more western depth.
    And in something we fell into this trap.
    Now, if, with diplomatically justified diplomatic concepts, the return of Soviet (Russian) territories was accompanied by a complex of military measures ...
    For example, in the early mobilization and occupation of key defensive lines. Well, about the Air Force on June 22, so everything seems to be in the know. The saddest day for our Air Force was to swell people on planes and the enemy came and burned everything at once.
    So any diplomacy is on a par with military plans. On June 22, we saw our plans ...
    Recently, there was really another version from Wasserman, saying that we shook the Wehrmacht on our roads and the calculation for our victory was originally built on this. they say they’ll let guests in deeper. Well, his logic is generally ridiculous ...- then it was necessary to leave only border guards at the border and deploy the entire army from Moscow in advance by evacuating the population.
    So you didn’t do anything! And we received on June 22nd.
    Yes ... the Wehrmacht was straining ... with what? Gasoline! Overcoming these new lands of ours.
    In addition, Stalin did not finish the process of gaining new borders by the old standards of the Russian Empire. Finland. Why?
    But where German tanks had free access, yes there ... restored historical justice.
    And for me, this is the last patron of a Polish soldier for a likely enemy, and there is the best diplomacy then.
    1. 0
      5 October 2013 22: 39
      Quote: Lexi
      And the Germans were more comfortable purely practically on the military to strike from a more western depth.

      That is, the farther the Germans will be from Moscow at the beginning of the war, the better for the Germans? Some kind of strange logic.
      1. lexe
        0
        5 October 2013 23: 29
        That is, the farther the Germans will be from Moscow at the beginning of the war, the better for the Germans? Some kind of strange logic.

        And why not?
        all the same, diplomacy is also subordinated to military plans, which are more profitable and according to the results of which the result of the achieved result will block the time costs.
        If they said A (return of the land of RI), it was necessary to say B (mobilization) and bringing the troops on the western border to the full standby mode of war. Yes, Hitler has mobilized the entire male population! And what did Stalin expect? The Germans had an overwhelming superiority in manpower first step! Is this normal? where is the logic?
        1. +1
          5 October 2013 23: 43
          Quote: Lexi
          .Yes Hitler has already mobilized the entire male population! And what did Stalin expect?

          But Stalin did not wait. But alas or cheers, the USSR is slightly larger than Germany territorially, hence the timing of the concentration of troops is somewhat different. In fact, the transfer of troops to the USSR took three times as much time as in the Third Reich. Let me draw your attention to the fact that when there was no war yet, in the USSR the station duty officer was shot for an hour of inactivity! That is, Stalin was well aware that we would not have time to concentrate the troops and what this would lead to.
          1. lexe
            +2
            6 October 2013 00: 25
            Let me draw your attention to the fact that when there was no war yet, in the USSR the station duty officer was shot for an hour of inactivity!

            Do you think that the new duty officer, instead of the departed one, will immediately enter the course of the logistics flow in the area entrusted to him? So ... laughing attendants are not stocked up.
            And instead of giving the employee a birthday, a new one will come .. ideologically savvy and completely stupid but with support from above. So your example can be interpreted differently.
            But we must take into account our territory! In addition, the evacuation of industry was overwhelmingly carried out in 1941.
            Judging by your logic, we will always be threatened with a repeat on June 22 because of our large size. And firing from a gun on all those on duty can’t fix the matter, but it’s quite possible to make it worse.
            Although I agree with you that URA we are a big country, only everyone except us uses this successfully.
            And the problem remains ... how to quickly build power in the threatened region.
            1. 0
              6 October 2013 01: 33
              Quote: Lexi
              Do you think that the new duty officer, instead of the departed one, will immediately enter the course of the logistics flow in the area entrusted to him? So .. the duty officers are not enough.

              This is a fact, regardless of his assessment.
              Quote: Lexi
              Judging by your logic, we will always be threatened with a repeat on June 22 because of our large size.

              There is some truth in these words, but the enemy, delving into our territory, faces the same problems.
              Quote: Lexi
              And the problem remains ... how to quickly build power in the threatened region.

              With this phrase, you cross out your own arguments, turn on the logic.
        2. 0
          5 October 2013 23: 55
          Read Goth, as he complained about the sandy roads of Belarus and the Baltic states, which killed German tanks better than the Red Army.
        3. +1
          5 October 2013 23: 57
          lexe, "Google in Yandex" the rate of growth of the Red Army since 1939.
          The USSR at the end of the 30's was a poor country, so the long-term maintenance of a multi-million army was a heavy burden on the economy. From a wiki:
          On February 21 1939 of the year - 1 910 477 people.
          At 20 September 1939 of the year - 5 289 400 people.
          At 1 December 1939 years - 3 273 400 people.
          At 1 January 1940 years - 3 851 700 people.
          On February 1 1940 of the year - 4 229 954 people.
          On April 1 1940 of the year - 4 416 600 people.
          On 1 of May 1940 of the year - 3 990 993 people.
          On 1 June 1940 years - 4 055 479 people.
          At 1 September 1940 of the year - 3 423 499 people.
          On October 1 of 1940 of the year - 3 446 309 people.
          By January 1941 of the year - 4 200 000 people.
          On 22 June 1941 years - 5 080 977 people.
          It is easy to trace that the army was growing with increasing political tension.
          1. lexe
            0
            6 October 2013 00: 54
            No, I agree with you that the power of the Red Army was growing. This is a fact!
            The question is different, but how was this power created by the tension of all the forces of the Soviet people used.
            It’s not enough to rivet tanks and planes. Although they riveted with confidence, what Stalin's merit is undoubtedly.
            Just recall in 1914 the Russian army did not have an extensive military arsenal, but already at the end of 1914 it became clear that Germany would lose the war.Drove every shell on the Kaiser!left the enemy nothing! and together with shell hunger there was an appetite for victory, and by 1917 the Russian army was equipped enough.
            Maybe the problem is in the talented performance of the task based on the existing input?
            And the fact that we gave Hitler just mountains of weapons on the western border?
            So it’s not enough to create and prepare ... this is not a merit, but rather a greater chance of success which we did not achieve, to put it mildly, in 1941.
            1. +1
              6 October 2013 01: 21
              lexe, much has been written that with such a rapid increase in numbers, it is very problematic to provide the army with high-quality command personnel. In this regard, the Germans at the beginning of the war noted: "Skillful leadership at the top command level and among commanders before the battalion. The middle link (commander-division commander) is below all criticism". Not literally, but close.
            2. +1
              6 October 2013 01: 50
              Quote: Lexi
              No, I agree with you that the power of the Red Army was growing. This is a fact!
              The question is different, but how was this power created by the tension of all the forces of the Soviet people used.

              Pay attention:
              In total, over 5,5 million people were concentrated for the attack on the USSR.
              As of June 22, 1941, there were 3 soldiers and officers in the border districts and fleets of the USSR.
              That is, at the beginning of the war, the USSR did not have time to deploy an army, the Third Reich had more than one and a half times superior in numbers. However, according to the German memoirists, by the winter, 20-30% of the list sotava remained in the military units, that is, the losses amounted to at least (according to conservative estimates) 3 million killed and wounded.
              Quote: Lexi
              So it’s not enough to create and prepare ... this is not a merit, but rather a greater chance of success which we did not achieve, to put it mildly, in 1941.

              The USSR did not even have a chance to win. However, contrary to theory, the Russians were better in everything.
              1. +3
                6 October 2013 05: 40
                I will specify:
                1. In the directions of the main attacks, the Germans had the classic 2,5-3 multiple superiority. Having defeated the cover army in the Border Battle, they further grinded the appropriate reserves of the Red Army also using numerical superiority at key points due to greater mobility.
                2. Memoirists, as a rule, talk about the loss of military personnel, and besides them there are also parts of the supply. we had up to half the size of the army, the Germans had less due to better rear motorization. According to the statements of the mobilized and the number of German armed forces at 01.01.42, it was established that the Germans' losses on the Eastern Front during the 41 year amounted to 1600000 people. These are the soldiers who fought Poland and the rest of France and Norway. Further, the quality of the German soldier began to decline steadily. And losses, respectively, grow. For 2MB, the sanitary losses of Germany amounted to 29,5 million people. If we consider 1 to be the norm for the wounded killed on 3-4, then the losses of the German Armed Forces for 2MB amounted to 7,5-10 mln. Which is quite consistent with the total losses of the German population during 2MB - up to 13 mln. 3 \ 4 units of Germany fought on the Eastern Front, which means and 3 \ 4 losses to the Germans were inflicted by Soviet soldiers.
              2. lexe
                -1
                6 October 2013 13: 58
                However, according to the German memoirists, by the winter, 20-30% of the list sotava remained in the military units, that is, the losses amounted to at least (according to conservative estimates) 3 million killed and wounded.

                However, this did not prevent the Germans from attacking again in 1942, for our losses were many times higher.
                Yes, they captured the whole of central Russia and got a short-term advantage in the rate of production of weapons — in fact, they achieved their goals in the war for the new colonies ... 3 million? -Nu followed by a high birth rate ... that's nothing.
                The USSR did not even have a chance to win. However, contrary to theory, the Russians were better in everything.

                Germany did not have a chance at all, both in Europe and in Russia. There is a feeling that the Wehrmacht had its own invisible hand, which helped to gain "brilliant" victories.
                After Poland, empty arsenals ... and the winter period, what kind of war is there right away with the USSR.
                And how many troops were released if Finland had not entered the war again?
                Why did we hold large contingents on the border with Japan? Yes, and with Turkey?
                Is the Caucasus and the Far East dearer to us than Mother Russia?
                Well, the Japanese would have fallen into the taiga ... well, to hell with them, they would have met the Russian Susanin. Moreover, China was much nicer to the Japanese.
                The Red Army had a chance! But this chance was blurred in our vast expanses.
                In addition, poor preparation can be leveled
                buried in advance in the ground and ready to defend the army.
                And here, where it is necessary to counterattack and maneuver, in short, think faster, yes ... there is no arguing against quality ...
                1. 0
                  6 October 2013 20: 07
                  Quote: Lexi
                  However, this did not prevent the Germans from attacking again in 1942, for our losses were many times higher.

                  Yes, by the summer of the 42nd, the Germans compensated for the losses, but by the winter of the 42nd, these troops were again grinded on the Eastern Front, Germany simply had no men left for the third recovery, and folklore and Hitler did not appear from a good life in Germany.
                  1. lexe
                    0
                    6 October 2013 20: 54
                    Dear Setrac
                    I understand that your position is sincere. But let me say that there is another point of view, and it does does not lie in line with the hanging of any new weights of repentance for the Russian people.
                    Unfortunately, the Stalinists see everything related to the Great Patriotic War as an occasion to revise past ideas and views.
                    And in something they are right ...
                    But justice will still find its way. The old logic cannot explain our monstrous losses.
                    But the fact that a stone will fall from the soul of the Russian people is a fact. For having such a strong state and experiencing such a massacre from an external invader is like you are an Indian ... well, the people did not forget on June 22! Although they remember May 9.
                    And until a clear answer has been received what happened on June 22, one should not console oneself with illusions that the Russian people will again stand under the red banner.
                    You mentioned that Napoleon supposedly and 1812. burned Moscow. It was ... there are also questions by then.
                    This is purely my personal opinion.
                    1. 0
                      6 October 2013 21: 17
                      Quote: Lexi
                      Explain our monstrous losses by the old logic will not work.

                      They are easily explained, just some people do not want to listen, this “someone” does not need explanations, but it is necessary to throw mud at Russia, no one is looking for any historical truth.
                      Quote: Lexi
                      .For having such a strong state and to experience such a massacre from an external invader as if you were an Indian ... well, the people did not forget on June 22!

                      You greatly exaggerate the strength of the USSR and downplay the strength of Germany and its allies.
                      Quote: Lexi
                      Unfortunately, the Stalinists see everything related to the Great Patriotic War as an occasion to revise past ideas and views.

                      Exactly so, although I am not a Stalinist, I understand very well that they want to deprive Russia of the status of a country winner of WWII.
                      1. lexe
                        0
                        6 October 2013 21: 41
                        but I understand perfectly that Russia wants to deprive the country of WWII winner status.

                        We already live in a world where statuses and international law have lost their authority.
                        But for me it is more important that the Russian people survived by rallying and then he chooses any status that he wants, as Churchill put it ... ... I won’t envy the people who got in the way of the Russians.
                        Yes ... in the USSR they always listened very sensitively to the opinion of Western partners.
                        Let’s let them at least declare us Russian Martians, it’s all the same to me. It’s just because their resolutions, resolutions, which have gone mad from the total tolerance of their peoples, will not give a damn about their history — let’s not say ours.
                      2. +1
                        6 October 2013 22: 07
                        Quote: Lexi
                        We already live in a world where statuses and international law have lost their authority.

                        And for example, the veto right in the UN Security Council also lost its credibility? You can cite dozens of examples of your wrong.
                      3. lexe
                        0
                        6 October 2013 23: 05
                        The veto power of the UN Security Council is an extreme case. There is only one war-black mark behind it.
                        And by the way, the veto is just evidence that the old world collapsed and with it the entire international system. Indeed, the United States agreed ...
                        But the fact that at every step there are double standards and examples can not be counted, you will not argue?
                        A monument in Estonia ... well, and after this event we dared to destroy this country? But for the memory of the Second World War, it was a strong blow. The whole Communist Party gathered in full force for an urgent business trip to a neighboring country? -No!
                        So, we need new international obligations, built taking into account the new realities. Moreover, in practice it is clear (with the same Estonia) that the arrival of communism in their country will not scare our neighbors.
                        Perhaps the imperial policy in Russia will make them think, Do we need it?
        4. +1
          6 October 2013 18: 46
          Quote: Lexi
          all the same, diplomacy is also subordinated to military plans, which are more profitable and according to the results of which the result of the achieved result will block the time costs.

          Well, of course, the Germans were easier and faster to go to Moscow the extra 200-300 kilometers, yeah. That's what they had in the long run was the seizure of the Baltic countries. Before the Covenant, of course.

          Quote: Lexi
          If they said A (return of the RI lands), it was necessary to say B (mobilization) and bringing the troops on the western border to the full standby mode of the war.

          The beginning of mobilization is practically the beginning of the war. Wehrmacht entered Poland with forces of 1,6 million people, the USSR entered Poland with troops of about 500 thousand people. What, then, in 1939, the USSR had to start a war with Germany? For what?
          Next.

          Quote: Lexi
          But what did Stalin expect? The Germans had an overwhelming superiority in manpower at the first stage! Is this normal? Where is the logic?

          By the beginning of World War II, the total number of the Wehrmacht was 3,2 million people.
          The total number of troops of the USSR in January 1939 was 1,9 million, by June 1940 amounted to 3,6 million. and on June 1, 1941, more than 5 million people. As you can see, all the same there was an increase in the number of troops of the USSR without declaring a mobilization, which can be interpreted as a declaration of war. so Stalin did not wait. And why was Stalin wrong and illogical?
          So on September 1, 1939, the USSR was outright losing to German troops in numbers and any incorrect action by the leadership of the USSR could easily be interpreted as the start of aggression against Germany, with all that it implies. Now the propaganda liberals are trying to accuse the USSR of preparing start strike in Germany and claim that, allegedly, Hitler launched a preemptive strike. And what would happen in 1939 in your situation?
          Nah, read the story, not Rezun.
          1. lexe
            -1
            6 October 2013 19: 43
            Well, of course, the Germans were easier and faster to go to Moscow the extra 200-300 kilometers, yeah

            Yeah. Given that on these extra kilometers there will be no personnel army destroyed earlier. And the newly arriving units of the Red Army will be methodically destroyed from the wheels. So the Germans wound on their wheels ... oh, how many of our soldiers are mediocre! Thrown to plug holes.
            True, then there will be an iron argument -But we had no other choice ... Yes, after June 22, the choice really was no longer great.
            And why was the Germans in a dispute in 1941, is it worth taking Kiev or rushing straight to Moscow? Well, so they wrapped extra kilometers.?
            The beginning of mobilization is almost the beginning of the war

            That's right. Only Hitler, proceeding from your logic, did not declare war on us in 1941. and in 1939 he then carried out his mobilization!
            Imagine the bulk of the German troops back in the West, and Stalin suddenly announces a mobilization, they say the world is restless, not against Germany, but just about .... Hitler would declare war on us? Funny ... he was shackled.
            And on June 22, the mobilized Red Army, arranges a "standing on the Ugra River" -remember such a historical episode? Ready for battle, but not a step forward.
            Now the propaganda liberals are trying to accuse the USSR of preparing to launch a strike against Germany and claim that, allegedly, Hitler launched a preventive strike. And what would happen in 1939 in your situation?
            Nah, read the story, not Rezun.

            And is this what? Or all thoughts that are different from yours are already Rezunschina. laughing tell me.
            I remember on a similar topic to my comment, there was a brilliant answer from one thinker.
            I quote (not verbatim) -if you say the word historian-you automatically think of Rezun laughing
            A convenient understanding of the excuse-wording found laughing
        5. Misantrop
          +1
          7 October 2013 09: 58
          Quote: Lexi
          Hitler has already mobilized the entire male population! And what did Stalin expect?

          Take an interest in how many Crimean Tatars were mobilized into the Red Army and ... how many of them deserted in the very first months of the war. And where did they all go then
  38. 0
    5 October 2013 21: 16
    In hindsight, everyone is strong.
  39. 0
    5 October 2013 21: 54
    I will be brief. ARTICLE CORRECT. Comments have different points of view. This is normal. The British and French surrendered Czechoslovakia (ally), they also did not hide their attitude to the USSR. Thus, there would be no German-Soviet Treaty, there would be no attack on Poland and the ensuing defeat of France and direct aggression against England. Consequently, the USSR, in the case of German aggression, automatically received England as an ally (which happened). And for England one could count on the United States (which also happened). But one on one with Germany, and in conditions of a significant lag in deployment, the war would have lasted a couple of years, and these are millions of dead Russian soldiers.
    1. Ulan
      +2
      7 October 2013 11: 47
      Speculation and nothing more. England "automatically" became an ally of the USSR ALREADY being in a state of war with Germany. How Churchill delayed the fulfillment of allied obligations until the 44th year is also known.
      Until September 1st, England was not at war with Germany.
      It is known that in case the USSR did not accept the German proposal to conclude a non-aggression treaty, there was already a plane at the Berlin airfield ready to send Goering to England to conclude a comprehensive treaty .... including about the division of spheres of influence.
      You esteemed, evaluate events not from the point of view of that time, but knowing what has already happened.
      This is a mistake of all amateurs.
      Once again, Hitler’s attack was in no way connected with the conclusion of a non-aggression pact with the USSR.
      All critics completely forget that there was an agreement between England, France and Poland on mutual military assistance.
      The forces of these three countries in the 39th year were many times superior to the Wehrmacht, but this did not stop Hitler.
      This was a threat of imminent defeat of Germany, the failure to conclude an agreement with the USSR did not threaten Germany.
      But the conclusion of England and France treaty with the USSR undoubtedly threatened.
      The signing of this agreement was successfully thwarted by England and Poland.
      Only a very naive person after that could hope that these countries would become allies of the USSR in the event of a war with Germany and would not stand aside.
      What they wanted with all my heart.
      Once again ... England became an ally of the USSR, not because she wanted to help us out so much, but because she herself was already at war with Germany. There was nowhere to go.
  40. In the reeds
    0
    5 October 2013 22: 22
    The primitive language of the long-dead savages Hebrew is no more complicated than other languages.
    And why should I translate the Bible from Hebrew, if the source language in which the Bible is written is Latin? The Bible is translated into Hebrew from Latin, and not vice versa.
    [Quote]The language, which was considered dead during the 18 centuries, becomes the language of everyday communication, the state language of the State of Israel. This was made possible thanks to the efforts of a number of enthusiasts, the most famous of which is Eliezer Ben Yehuda.
    The idea of ​​reviving Hebrew was an integral part of the ideology of Zionism as such, which sought to break with the legacy of the diaspora and with the languages ​​spoken by Jews living under alien dominion.
    [/ quote] [/ quote]
    Please never say that again. And I won't tell anyone anything. And Christ he will forgive you, except for "Hebrew" (then Aramaic) would still not understand anything from your comments
  41. +4
    5 October 2013 22: 38
    Quote: Drummer
    The regrouping of troops from traditional locations to the freshly connected western regions of Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states added problems - everyone was busy with the arrangement, living conditions sharply worsened

    Those, believe me, the Wehrmacht had the same problems in Poland ...
    Quote: Drummer
    finally, the prepared line of fortifications was abandoned, they did not have time to build a new one.

    Ay-yai-yay ... Rezun (East) Detective ...
    Quote: Drummer
    These are only the simplest, immediate consequences of PMR

    And let’s point by point - give the clause of the contract and its relationship with the nonsense that you are here to mess up.
    Quote: Drummer
    not to mention the decline in international image, spoiled relations with probable allies, etc.

    The Soviet Union in Europe had no probable allies. Absolutely. And there was no image. The USSR was kicked out of the LN and looked at him in Europe as fecal masses smeared on his favorite rug. Well, the French and British of the USSR did not consider themselves equal on the political map - by 1939 the USSR was a second-rate state for them in the outskirts of Europe. True, they calculated the potential of the USSR correctly and did everything possible to prevent it from being realized.
  42. 0
    6 October 2013 00: 02
    I consider it beneath my dignity, and not to spoil my nerves, to chew all the truth in history such as a "drummer". The fact that he is a pure troll is understandable. And I would not be surprised that he has high berdts on his legs, black clothes, some symbol on the sleeve that resembles a swastika, trimmed to zero, on the table is “Mine Kapf”, and on the wall there are more than one posters depicting Hitler and other Nazi shalupeni ... In the navy, those who served in the 70s should remember how general contempt was expressed to such people, and who does not know I will write: Oooo!
    I make a proposal, if the site administrators miss, to endure such contempt for such as "drummer".
  43. namejs
    -3
    6 October 2013 00: 34
    1. The author writes how everything was "bad" (what was wrong) in the Baltic countries. And what does the USSR care about the Baltic countries? The Baltic countries were sovereign countries and if everything would be absolutely bad here, then, too, Moscow should not have had anything to do with Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.

    2. If the USSR so wanted to protect its borders, then what the hell was it necessary to annex the Baltic countries? I must remind you that mutual assistance agreements were concluded between the Baltic countries and the USSR in October 1939 (Molotov, speaking in a hanging council in March 1940, praised how well Latvia would fulfill its allied duty) and there were already large contingents of the Red Army.

    3. Yes, yes - the joy of a person asking to join the USSR .. Can you show you the joy of the face of the Czechs meeting the "valiant" German army in Prague in 1939?
    Of course, there were some who were happy (for example, the convicts who let everyone out of prisons) or the small number of communes. Most of these people were driven out into the streets, just as they were forced to meet the Germans in the Czechs (which is described in the memoirs of German soldiers. For example, G. Bauer "revelations of a German sniper)


    4. This "entry" well can not be called the will of the people. At least because someone did not cheat with the people. According to the constitutions of Latvia, such issues should be decided by the people. And a few weeks ago the parliament was deciding the elections (in the elections that only a bloc of workers and communists was allowed, and representatives of other parties were arrested a few days before they were elected) consisting of a whole group of communists.

    5. About Polsha ... The author writes about compliance with international law (author is a lawyer?). If Moscow wanted to really act on the side of the law, then on the second day itself it would declare war on Germany, or at least everyone would start to support the Poles (questions about the sovereignty of Belarusians and Ukrainians would be resolved after the war) and economic and military means. Immediately it was necessary to stop supplying resources to the German military machine (if only Hitler would not have been shown) and that’s all.

    And then it gets about something like - I looked at how the first one beat the second and at the last moment ran up and took the wallet from the second so that he was not enough1. The author writes how everything was "bad" (what was wrong) in the Baltic countries. And what does the USSR care about the Baltic countries? The Baltic countries were sovereign countries and if everything would be absolutely bad here, then, too, Moscow should not have had anything to do with Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.

    2. If the USSR so wanted to protect its borders, then what the hell was it necessary to annex the Baltic countries? I must remind you that mutual assistance agreements were concluded between the Baltic countries and the USSR in October 1939 (Molotov, speaking in a hanging council in March 1940, praised how well Latvia would fulfill its allied duty) and there were already large contingents of the Red Army.

    3. Yes, yes - the joy of a person asking to join the USSR .. Can you show you the joy of the face of the Czechs meeting the "valiant" German army in Prague in 1939?
    Of course, there were some who were happy (for example, the convicts who let everyone out of prisons) or the small number of communes. Most of these people were driven out into the streets, just as they were forced to meet the Germans in the Czechs (which is described in the memoirs of German soldiers. For example, G. Bauer "revelations of a German sniper)
    1. +1
      6 October 2013 01: 28
      Quote: Namejs
      If the USSR so wanted to protect its borders, then what the hell did the Baltic countries need to be annexed?

      And then, that the Soviet leadership had no illusions about your fighting efficiency and desire to resist the German invasion. And so it did the only thing right in that situation.
      1. namejs
        0
        6 October 2013 14: 54
        Once again I repeat - in the autumn of 1939 there were Soviet military bases in Latvia (as well as in Lithuania and Estonia). Your Vichy country leaders didn’t emphasize friendliness and even in the Law spoke of great friendship between the USSR and the Republic of Latvia and that the USSR would never advise Latvia.

        So, there really couldn’t be any military necessity, since at the time of the creation of military bases Germany was an alliance of the USSR and the USSR supplied resources at full speed to see the war against France and England.

        The unwillingness to fight is also a myth. If they would have been better interested, they would have seen that the Germans were the main enemy for the community (because it was with them that it was most possible to fight for their independence and it was the German landlords who exploited the Latvian people for centuries). And then why did the Germans meet with flowers on July 1, 1941, this is exactly the question that many Russians can’t understand at all - why in a year of conduction under the Soviet regime, the Latvian people sworn enemies (Germans) meet with flowers.
        What do you think about this?
        1. 0
          6 October 2013 20: 08
          Quote: Namejs
          What do you think about this?

          Well, it’s understandable why, cowardly little souls are ready to please the strong and bark at the weak, as in our time, nothing has changed since then.
          1. namejs
            0
            6 October 2013 22: 56
            and you consider such insults an argument? Do you respect yourself?
            I would be ashamed to write offensive texts to the address of the Russian (and Lyubov friend) people. You clearly proved that you are an unhappy chauvinist
            1. +1
              6 October 2013 23: 08
              Quote: Namejs
              You clearly proved that you are an unhappy chauvinist

              And what is immediately "unfortunate"?
              Quote: Namejs
              I would be ashamed to write offensive texts to the address of the Russian (and Lyubov friend) people.

              Well, do not write, who forces you? However, you write and you are not ashamed?
              Quote: Namejs
              and you consider such insults an argument?

              Probably the fable "The Elephant and the Pug" will also be an insult to you?
              Quote: Namejs
              Do you respect yourself?

              Do you suggest that I popiarit myself a little?
              1. namejs
                0
                8 October 2013 01: 07
                Quote: Setrac
                And what is immediately "unfortunate"?

                Chauvinists are rarely ever happy. Chauvinism itself manifests itself when life is not all right.

                Quote: Setrac
                Well, do not write, who forces you? However, you write and you are not ashamed?


                And what did I write of such an Oscarbitelnova in relation to the Russian people?

                Quote: Setrac
                Do you suggest that I popiarit myself a little?


                Respected the limits of decency and did not insult national interlocutors
                1. 0
                  8 October 2013 22: 05
                  Quote: Namejs
                  Chauvinists are rarely ever happy. Chauvinism itself manifests itself when life is not all right.

                  Quote: Namejs
                  And what did I write of such an Oscarbitelnova in relation to the Russian people?

                  Quote: Namejs
                  Respected the limits of decency and did not insult national interlocutors

                  You put forward claims to the USSR for actions during WWII, you try to defame our people and our army, and do not excuse yourself for blaming the government and not the people. You are trying to slander my grandfather - a war veteran, and this is a personal insult.
                  1. namejs
                    -1
                    9 October 2013 13: 56
                    Quote: Setrac
                    You make claims to the USSR for actions during WWII

                    Well, these are justified claims.
                    - termination of the Latvian-Soviet agreements
                    - imposing all new demands using threats of violence
                    - The USSR did not keep its promise, annexed my country and massacred the citizens of Latvia

                    Of course this is the ruse of Russophobia? :)

                    Quote: Setrac
                    trying to slander our people and our army


                    there is no reason people here. I am very sorry that you identify the people and the Bolshevik authorities. My grandfather also fought the Red Army, and so what? Now I need automatic becomes patriots of the USSR?

                    Quote: Setrac
                    You are trying to slander my grandfather - a war veteran, and this is a personal insult.

                    Honestly, no offense, I do not want to insult your grandfather. My claim is only against the authorities of that time, against the Bolsheviks.

                    Well, if yours was not included in the NKVD and did not participate in crimes against any civil.
                    1. +1
                      9 October 2013 15: 20
                      Quote: Namejs
                      My grandfather also fought the Red Army, and so what?

                      This fact should serve as proof of the correctness of the USSR if your ancestors were on the side of Soviet power in the Baltic states.
                      Quote: Namejs
                      Honestly, no offense, I do not want to insult your grandfather.

                      If you are ready to slander your grandfather - a veteran, then what is my grandfather to you?
                      Quote: Namejs
                      I am very sorry that you identify the people and the Bolshevik authorities.

                      And for example, can the current Nazi power in Latvia be identified with the Latvian people?
                      1. namejs
                        0
                        9 October 2013 18: 07
                        Quote: Setrac
                        This fact should serve as proof of the correctness of the USSR if your ancestors were on the side of Soviet power in the Baltic states.


                        First of all, he was not a Baltic, well, and how could he know about the crimes of the Bolsheviks?
                        And where is the USSR right?

                        For example, my wife's grandfather stayed alive because he ran away. When the "liberators" (I mean the Red Army) appeared, he, like many Malchishak (he was 15 years old), was taken to cannon fodder. He is the only one from the village who ran away and the only one who remained alive.
                        Where is the correctness and foresight of the USSR?

                        Quote: Setrac
                        If you are ready to slander your grandfather - a veteran, then what is my grandfather to you?

                        I would like to think that he is an unhappy victim than a war criminal (he died in the war). I’m just sorry that he had to fight for such a ruthless man as Bolshevism and not, for example, for the Belarusian People’s Republic (BNR)
                        * he was great-grandfathers to me

                        Quote: Setrac
                        And for example, can the current Nazi power in Latvia be identified with the Latvian people?

                        Either you do not know the meaning of the word "Nazi" or you do not know who is in power in Latvia.
                        Can you name at least one Nazi in power?
                      2. 0
                        9 October 2013 20: 10
                        Quote: Namejs
                        First of all, he was not a Baltic, well, and how could he know about the crimes of the Bolsheviks?
                        And where is the USSR right?

                        He was an eyewitness, a contemporary, he couldn’t know, but do you know everything? He could not know because there were no crimes, everything was in the legal field, if anyone was exiled or shot, that was why.
                        Quote: Namejs
                        When the "liberators" (I mean the Red Army) appeared, he, like many Malchishak (he was 15 years old), was taken to cannon fodder. He is the only one from the village who escaped and the only one who remained alive.

                        These claims against the Germans, the Germans are aggressors, the Germans killed.
                        Quote: Namejs
                        I would like to think that he is an unhappy victim than a war criminal (he died in the war).

                        Forced to become heroes too? Take an interest in the awards of your great-grandfather. These people were WINNERS, and you consider them unhappy victims.
                      3. 0
                        9 October 2013 22: 00
                        Quote: Namejs
                        When the "liberators" (I mean the Red Army) appeared, he, like many Malchishak (he was 15 years old), was taken away for cannon fodder.

                        This is a lie, minors were not drafted into the Red Army, and drafted into the Wehrmacht.
                        There are two options.
                        Or your wife’s grandfather volunteered, and he had to hide his age - to attribute several years.
                        Or he fought for the Germans.
                      4. namejs
                        0
                        10 October 2013 09: 17
                        he could not be volunteers and the Germans did not call him ... In Latvia, there are many known cases of the Bolsheviks and the Red Army without a chapel. These cases with the wife's grandfather, for example, are personal. And so there are cases when they were shot without trial and investigation by "spying" although they were people avoiding German mobilization, when the planes of the Red Army shot (most likely frightened) those working in the field.

                        The Latvians were afraid of the soldiers of the Red Army since so many (not all) had been from the century before the end of the century. Latvians saw how Soviet soldiers in 1940 wore half-towels thinking it was a scarf or how officers wore a night shirt in a theater ... Or like my grandmother told me how they were fighting for the city of Auce (a frontline city in Kurlandia). The Germans left their cans of alcohol and worked, the night the Germans took Auce without a whistle ... And of course, the incompetence of these villagers when they entered the house and saw the service broke the dishes from anger ... Or from the life of my grandfather, my colleagues who were called up to the Red Army and he saw what was in eastern Prussia and in Polsha. So for example in Polsh one soldier shot one Pole thinking that he was a fascist, and his grandfather- We are in Polsh! The soldier in response- oh yes *****

                        I think it’s unpleasant for you to read this. But I am also unpleasant when the Red Army is shown as white and fluffy ...
                      5. namejs
                        -1
                        9 October 2013 22: 09
                        Quote: Setrac
                        He was an eyewitness, a contemporary, he couldn’t know, but do you know everything? He could not know because there were no crimes, everything was in the legal field, if anyone was exiled or shot, that was why.

                        I'm sorry to ask, what kind of education do you have?
                        as regards legal issues, I see that in Russian schools the subject does not exist as a legal basis .. nda ..

                        then in order
                        1. If even the great-grandfather was disappointed, was there anything he could do? he will be shot or otherwise repressed.
                        2. What does it mean for what? Do you know by what principles they just call up some kind of responsibility? If someone is to blame, he specifically must answer. over those who were deported, the trial or investigation was not carried out, according to the class principles, teachers, students, policemen, officers, businessmen, officials ... I have no reason to say that among those who were deported on June 14, 1941, the youngest was several weeks old .. And for what?
                        In other words, they acted as middlemen methods- how then to name the Bolsheviks barbarians?

                        Quote: Setrac
                        These claims against the Germans, the Germans are aggressors, the Germans killed.

                        That’s well said :) but those who mobilized do not accept, they bear responsibility. For one good reason, Redkov was 17 years old ... In general, the Bolsheviks were terribly reliant on their soldiers. I would say the bodies were overwhelmed. For example, only one Budapest operation from 750 people with wounded killed, etc. lost about 000 .. and this is only official figures. It’s just horror how they could kidats so much with the lives of people. And this is the worst thing. The most terrible business was with military invalids who were also deported farther from the eyes .. http: //exidna-i.livejournal.com/300.html

                        Quote: Setrac
                        Forced to become heroes too? Take an interest in the awards of your great-grandfather. These people were WINNERS, and you consider them unhappy victims.


                        I'll write about it a little later
                      6. +1
                        9 October 2013 22: 45
                        Quote: Namejs
                        In general, the Bolsheviks were terribly treating their soldiers. I would say the bodies were overwhelmed. For example, only one Budapest operation from 750 people with wounded killed, etc. lost about 000 .. and this is only official figures.

                        However, the same statistics say that between the USSR and the Third Reich there was an approximate parity for losses among military personnel. The thesis of overwhelming corpses does not hold water, the population of the Third Reich with its allies (European) exceeded the population of the USSR by almost one and a half times. The USSR physically could not throw corpses.
                        Quote: Namejs
                        If even the great-grandfather was disappointed, was there anything he could do?

                        Let's not "if", and if not disappointed? You do not know this and are inventing excuses here.
                        Quote: Namejs
                        I’m not going to say that among those who were deported on June 14, 1941, the youngest was several weeks old .. And what for?

                        I went with my parents, here I have complaints against my parents - for which they were deported. So it was for what.
                      7. namejs
                        0
                        10 October 2013 01: 03
                        Quote: Setrac
                        However, the same statistics say that between the USSR and the Third Reich there was an approximate parity for losses among military personnel. The thesis of overwhelming corpses does not hold water, the population of the Third Reich with its allies (European) exceeded the population of the USSR by almost one and a half times. The USSR physically could not throw corpses.


                        The USSR threw all resources to the western front. Axis countries had at least 2 fronts + still occupation territories.
                        If I am unmistakable, then Germany against the USSR lost 2 million? and how many were the losses of the Red Army?
                        Quote: Setrac
                        Let's not "if", and if not disappointed? You do not know this and are making excuses here

                        I just wanted to say that regardless of his beliefs and his looks, there was little he could do. Since we don’t know what he really thought, then I use this "if".
                        So, if he was a patriot of the Soviet regime, and at the same time he was still a witness to the crimes of the Bolsheviks, then of course he was a scoundrel. Skolko and his relatives talked about him, he was very educated and intelligent people. He knew several languages, he knew a lot of romances, he knew how to play many instruments and other signs of higher education than average for 30s and 40s. It’s just that he hid it all in a cool way as if we were lying so that the Bolsheviks would not consider him to class enemies .. So

                        Quote: Setrac
                        why they were deported. So it was for what.


                        and for which they were most often repressed in the USSR. on the basis of class. And "it was for what" the reasons can be as legal as illegal. Well, the Bolsheviks hated the intelligentsia and those who disagree, so there is a reason to liquidate them. And in essence it is innocence people, and you say - there is a reason. Yes, there was a reason - officials, students, teachers, officers, lawyers would never have resigned themselves to subject their homeland to the Bolshevik regime, as it happened to Russia. But this is illegal - the USSR had nothing to do with independent Latvia. And now you will be surprised that the Soviet power in Latvia is hated.
                      8. +1
                        10 October 2013 03: 23
                        Quote: Namejs
                        The USSR threw all resources to the western front. Axis countries had at least 2 fronts + still occupation territories.

                        Let’s not deceive anyone here. The conversation is about the USSR and the Third Reich. The USSR also had two more theater of operations - the Far East and the South, where there were significant military contingents.
                        Quote: Namejs
                        If I am unmistakable, then Germany against the USSR lost 2 million? and how many were the losses of the Red Army

                        You are mistaken and much. 5.2 million troops of the Third Reich with the Allies attacked the USSR. By winter, from 20 to 30% of the personnel (German data) remained in the combat units killed and wounded, given that reinforcements were coming and many wounded managed to get back into service, the number of killed, according to the most conservative estimates, was at least two million only in the first year war, but the reality is more likely.
                        And in fact, by 1944, there were no men of draft age left in the Third Reich, since such a phenomenon as the Hitler Agent and Volksturm appeared, so think about how much Germany lost if it did not have men.
      2. Ulan
        +2
        7 October 2013 12: 06
        That's right. Why did the USSR have to save the Baltic states from Hitler when they themselves actively opposed this. They mean the power of the Baltic republics.
        We took care of our own security. Moreover, I’ll say that if something doesn’t happen today, neither Russia nor NATO will care about the security of the Baltic Limitrophs.
        It will need to be used as a bargaining chip - use.
        The USSR was concerned about the Baltic states because it is a very convenient bridgehead for attacking Moscow from the north.
        The USSR tried to ensure its security without the introduction of troops into the Baltic states; for this, in the negotiations with England and France on the conclusion of an agreement on countering German aggression in Europe, the text provided guarantees to the Baltic countries against aggression.
        Say thanks to the British who foiled the signing of this treaty.
        There would be a treaty and the Baltic republics remained independent.
        So do not have any illusions that your NATO allies will throw you as they threw you into Poland 39th and Czechoslovakia 38th. And what a shame, the USSR cannot be blamed for this. smile
        1. namejs
          -1
          7 October 2013 22: 51
          Quote: Ulan
          That's right. Why did the USSR have to save the Baltic states from Hitler when they themselves actively opposed this. They mean the power of the Baltic republics.

          Well, after all, no one asked the USSR about this. It was the USSR itself that imposed an agreement on mutual assistance, etc.

          Quote: Ulan
          The USSR was concerned about the Baltic states because it is a very convenient bridgehead for attacking Moscow from the north.

          From a military point of view, you are right (theoretical). But the argument is not about that. The fact is that an agreement on mutual assistance between Latvia and the USSR was concluded on October 5, 1939, and practically the Red Army forces were immediately deployed in Latvia, and the annexation process took place throughout the summer of 1940. So, there was no military need, but all the same, the USSR took to Sovietize the Baltic countries

          Quote: Ulan
          So do not have any illusions that your NATO allies will throw you as they threw you into Poland 39th and Czechoslovakia 38th. And what a shame, the USSR cannot be blamed for this.

          I disagree, as the facts from Wikileaks show. That the US and German governments were very concerned about the military security of the Baltic states and, in secrecy within NATO, developed an Orol defender plan. The plan foresees the deployment of 9 German American and British divisions in the Baltics and Polsha.
    2. +2
      6 October 2013 02: 18
      Dear Namejs, you have a mess in your head, you don’t understand why everything happened this way and not otherwise. To begin with, do not believe the propaganda, especially the Western one, which speculates on your feelings of patriotism and self-esteem.
      Further along Germany and Poland (the same applies to the USA and Japan) - these states wanted to be colonial empires, such as Britain, France or Spain, in order to also improve their well-being and strength by robbing the colonies. But our planet is not rubber, this could be done in two ways, the first is to take part of the colonies from the existing colonial empires, the second to subjugate territories that the colonial empires do not control — the USSR and China. However, if Germany was strong enough to compete with Britain and France, then Poland was weak and made the only decision for itself - the USSR territories would be its colonies, which is why it didn’t take any help from the USSR, and this decision was not made in the 20th century , and during the time of the Commonwealth. That is why the Polish elite hates Russians.
      1. namejs
        0
        6 October 2013 15: 11
        Dear Setrats!

        If you understood correctly, then you explain the actions of the USSR with the realities of that time, but at the same time position the USSR as a subject of international relations, which always stood for a just cause. But if the actions of the USSR are always justified by the fact that others did the same (he stole why I can’t) the USSR was not the best.

        What grief I - the USSR had enough opportunities to maintain peace in Europe. But the USSR decided to do the same attacking methods as Hitler (Annexation of the Baltic countries, for example. Although this was not a military necessity).

        I have the same opinion about other powers (for example, the Munich Treaty, etc.), but they recognized that it was unfortunate and that it was. What about Russia now?
        I have read a lot of insults in my comments here, although I am talking about the specific actions of the Soviet leaders and not all the people who were under them.

        Such differences of point of view on concrete events do not contribute to mutual understanding (this is the same if Germany denied the criminal actions of the SS on the territory of Russia, it’s insulting).

        If, of course, I correctly understood that you wanted to tell your comments
        1. +1
          6 October 2013 20: 20
          Quote: Namejs
          What grief I - the USSR had enough opportunities to maintain peace in Europe.

          You are wrong! The world did not want Germany, Britain, France, Italy, USA, Japan.
          The question was about the survival of the USSR as a Russian country - as a nation.
          Quote: Namejs
          What grief I - the USSR had enough opportunities to maintain peace in Europe. But the USSR decided to do the same attacking methods as Hitler (Annexation of the Baltic countries, for example. Although this was not a military necessity).

          It is a military necessity.
          Quote: Namejs
          Such differences of point of view on concrete events do not contribute to mutual understanding (this is the same if Germany denied the criminal actions of the SS on the territory of Russia, it’s insulting).

          You wrote above about the Latvian shooters! But the coming of the Communists to power was optional, it’s a shame.
          Quote: Namejs
          I have the same opinion about other powers (for example, the Munich Treaty, etc.), but they recognized that it was unfortunate and that it was. What about Russia now?

          The difference is that no one is demanding compensation from Britain or the United States or France for those events, but you want monetary compensation and are surprised when you are sent on an erotic foot trip, go work.
  44. namejs
    -3
    6 October 2013 00: 34
    4. This "entry" well can not be called the will of the people. At least because someone did not cheat with the people. According to the constitutions of Latvia, such issues should be decided by the people. And a few weeks ago the parliament was deciding the elections (in the elections that only a bloc of workers and communists was allowed, and representatives of other parties were arrested a few days before they were elected) consisting of a whole group of communists.

    5. About Polsha ... The author writes about compliance with international law (author is a lawyer?). If Moscow wanted to really act on the side of the law, then on the second day itself it would declare war on Germany, or at least everyone would start to support the Poles (questions about the sovereignty of Belarusians and Ukrainians would be resolved after the war) and economic and military means. Immediately it was necessary to stop supplying resources to the German military machine (if only Hitler would not have been shown) and that’s all.

    And then something like something comes out, I looked like the first one beat the second one and at the last moment ran up and took the wallet from the second so that he would be missing the first ku. Nonsen!

    I apologize for the grammar mistakes.

    lsa to the first ku. Nonsen!

    I apologize for the grammar mistakes.

    namejs
    1. +4
      6 October 2013 02: 05
      Quote: Namejs
      And what is the USSR doing to the Baltic countries?

      I want to ask a counter question, but what is the matter of Germany, France or Poland to the country of Russia? the point is that you, the Baltic states, are giving your territory to our enemies to attack Russia, but you must understand that in the event of any tension, a bridgehead such as the Baltic states will eliminate Russia and no NATO will help you. And given that the Baltic states - territories torn away from Russia - this will be fair.
      Quote: Namejs
      And then something like something comes out, I looked like the first one beat the second one and at the last moment ran up and took the wallet from the second so that he would be missing the first ku. Nonsen!

      These claims are not substantiated, in fact, one criminal knocked on the head of another criminal, and since they are both criminals, the victim was "WASTE" to accept the help of a decent citizen. Let me draw your attention to the fact that the USSR returned back its lands, where OUR people lived, these territories were torn away by Poland during difficult times for Russia.
      1. namejs
        0
        6 October 2013 15: 31
        Quote: Setrac
        I want to ask a counter question, but what is the matter of Germany, France or Poland to the country of Russia? the point is that you, the Baltic states, are giving your territory to our enemies to attack Russia, but you must understand that in the event of any tension, a bridgehead such as the Baltic states will eliminate Russia and no NATO will help you. And given that the Baltic states - territories torn away from Russia - this will be fair.


        1. Latvia (as well as Lithuania and Estonia) was not a satellite or a subject of Germany or France. Because all the arguments are that there is France or Germany in the minds of nebiruts. Just because ----> 2. There was no military necessity! At least because there were Soviet troops in the Baltic States and Latvia was already an allied country.
        Who could deploy their troops here? Germany? Germany was an ally of the USSR at that time.


        Quote: Setrac
        These claims are not substantiated, in fact, one criminal knocked on the head of another criminal, and since they are both criminals, the victim was "WASTE" to accept the help of a decent citizen.


        In any case, a decent man must act like a decent man in relation to any other, and it’s non-failure to say that someone is a criminal there.
        The USSR could and should have helped Polsha. All other issues would then be resolved within the framework of international law.

        England and the USSR could have been obyadenitsa and no one did not use any concepts of "zapadlo" and so on ...
        Quote: Setrac
        I would like to draw your attention to the fact that the USSR returned back its land where our people lived, these territories Poland rejected difficult times for Russia.

        This is also a moot point. The referendum on the choice of where to join the Belarusians / Poles / Ukrainians no one unsure! And what if they wanted just wanted to become a separate state?

        Our land for Russia is a very weak argument, as Latvia was in the Russian Empire, but Latvia is not Russian land but Latvian.

        Summary - in order to protect the interests of Ukrainians and Belarusians, there was no need to eliminate the Polish statehood and participate in the criminal agreement of Molotov-Ribentrop.
        1. +2
          6 October 2013 20: 29
          Quote: Namejs
          1. Latvia (as well as Lithuania and Estonia) was not a satellite or a subject of Germany or France. Because all the arguments are that there is France or Germany in the minds of nebiruts. Just because ----> 2. There was no military necessity! At least because there were Soviet troops in the Baltic States and Latvia was already an allied country.

          These are your pink ideas about the role of the Baltic states in WWII. I want to remind you with a modern example - the Baltic states in NATO and in the Jewish Union, you are now satellite and subjects of Germany end K, and if the USSR had not occupied the Baltic states, then in 1941 everything was exactly the same.
          Quote: Namejs
          In any case, a decent man must act like a decent man in relation to any other, and it’s non-failure to say that someone is a criminal there.

          Honest people can talk about decency, that is, we Germans, Anglo-Saxons, and their sixes in eastern Europe are far from decency.
          Quote: Namejs
          The USSR could and should have helped Polsha. All other issues would then be resolved within the framework of international law.

          Why should the USSR generally have to protect anyone? And if Poland wanted help - no, she didn’t want it, she wanted to build an empire on Russian lands. Yes, I repeat, read the posts above. Or is the Chukchi not a reader, a Chukchi writer?
          Quote: Namejs
          This is also a moot point. The referendum on the choice of where to join the Belarusians / Poles / Ukrainians no one unsure! And what if they wanted just wanted to become a separate state?

          And Russia gave these lands to Belarusians and Ukrainians.
          1. namejs
            0
            6 October 2013 23: 11
            Quote: Setrac
            These are your pink ideas about the role of the Baltic states in WWII.


            It’s just a fact - a fact that disproves the military need for the annexation of the Baltic countries.
            I look forward to some further arguments, why did the USSR need to annex the Baltic states?


            Quote: Setrac
            you are satellites and subjects of Germany end K

            Of course, these days, this is no longer the case, but all the same, we continue. You obviously still know very little how the EU functions. Can you provide any evidence to your words?
            Quote: Setrac
            and if the USSR had not occupied the Baltic states, then in 1941 everything was exactly the same.

            Yes and Well, in 1941 half of the European part of the USSR was under Germany. It’s just that it’s not through the fault of Latishea there but because of the unavailability of the Red Army

            Quote: Setrac
            Honest people can talk about decency, that is, we Germans, Anglo-Saxons, and their sixes in eastern Europe are far from decency.


            What is the connection between Latvia and England or Germany in 1939, for example? What kind of argument do you have? Latvia as a state has never imperfect offenses in relation to the USSR. On the contrary, they made the concessions of licking on the difference of preserving the peace and independence of their country. And that advice, betrayed and occupied and then massively repressed Latvian citizens

            Quote: Setrac
            Why should the USSR generally have to protect anyone? And if Poland wanted help - no, she didn’t want it, she wanted to build an empire on Russian lands. Yes, I repeat, read the posts above. Or is the Chukchi not a reader, a Chukchi writer?

            Of course, there was no need to defend the military in the first place (this is interpreted as an example). but all should help the victim of aggression. In any case, the USSR took to the observance of this principle when it joined the League of the nation.


            Quote: Setrac
            And Russia gave these lands to Belarusians and Ukrainians

            Quote: Setrac
            And Russia gave these lands to Belarusians and Ukrainians.
            1. +1
              6 October 2013 23: 30
              Quote: Namejs
              Of course, there was no need to defend the military in the first place (this is interpreted as an example). but all should help the victim of aggression.

              Poland is as much a "victim of aggression" as Germany, a country with imperialist aspirations. One aggressor beat another, there were no victims.
              Quote: Namejs
              And that advice, betrayed and occupied and then massively repressed Latvian citizens

              Well, actually, and then the traitorous councils most insolently built factories, schools, hospitals, universities, etc. in the Baltic States. Who was repressed? Sent by Anglo-Saxon or German agitators?
              Quote: Namejs
              Of course, these days, this is no longer the case, but all the same, we continue. You obviously still know very little how the EU functions.

              There is a lot of evidence, for example, the Ignalina NPP clearly shows how the EU functions and in whose interests. There are many such examples for any Baltic country.
              1. namejs
                0
                7 October 2013 23: 05
                Quote: Setrac
                Poland is as much a "victim of aggression" as Germany, a country with imperialist aspirations. One aggressor beat another, there were no victims.

                International law very specifically means who the aggressor is — the country that launched aggression against another sovereign subject of international relations. Whether it was imperialistic or not, Polsh doesn’t matter anymore. It’s the same as in the penal code of conviction (whatever they would be) to call penal liability.

                Quote: Setrac
                Well, actually, and then the traitorous councils most insolently built factories, schools, hospitals, universities, etc. in the Baltic States. Who was repressed? Sent by Anglo-Saxon or German agitators?

                Again - Who asked for this? :)
                Well, let’s look on the other hand, all these factories and the industry demanded labor from the other republics of the USSR (colonization - to reduce the attitude of ethnic Laticians to non-Latins). Most of the houses built in the apartments were mostly newcomers, while the brown population of the country was mostly living in much better conditions.

                Well, nakanetsto, the Academy of Sciences of Latvia has filed that the average share of Latvia in the GDP of the USSR was 1,2% at the same time from the total "boiler" Latvia received only 0,7%. Almost twice as much Latvia did it as it received and that means without the USSR it would develop almost twice as quickly.

                Quote: Setrac
                There is a lot of evidence, for example, the Ignalina NPP clearly shows how the EU functions and in whose interests. There are many such examples for any Baltic countries.

                in particular, with Ignalina NPP, the issue was negotiated even before joining the EU.
                But what else do you know about the EU. How do you make decisions?
    2. +2
      6 October 2013 06: 06
      Dear Namejs! I already answered you above, who made the decision to join Latvia to the USSR. I repeat the numbers:
      In Latvia, the turnout was 94,8%, for the Bloc of the working people, 97,8% of the vote was cast. That is, on all remaining parties, 6% of the votes remain. Not enough to influence any decisions of the new parliament. And the vote was, I note, exclusively among Latvians. Then in Latvia there were no aliens of a foreign nationality to the Latvians. State power (officials, police and courts) was still in the hands of the previous government, so no one could force Latvians to go to polling stations and force them to vote for the bloc of working people. Yes, propaganda and pressure from the USSR took place, but, for example, they could not do a regime change in Finland to pro-Soviet without the will of the people.
      1. namejs
        -1
        6 October 2013 15: 43
        I already answered your question visha. But I will repeat

        Are you not embarrassed by the fact that only one list (a glimpse of the working people) participated in these "elections", and the candidates of the second list (the democratic bloc) were arrested a day before they were elected?
        And about the turnout you are not funny? There were no real choices in the world where the turnout would be over 80-90% ...
        And the people in the referendum and not the parliament should decide on joining some kind of union. And the parliament, as they themselves noted, was an illegitimate
        Quote: Omskgazmyas
        State power (officials, police and courts) was still in the hands of the previous government, so no one could force Latvians to go to polling stations and force them to vote for the bloc of working people


        You are confusing something.
        For the first time in Latvia already in July there was a new government, and the election to the parliament passed only afterwards.
        It was just that on June 14/15, the dictatot of Latvia Ulmanis received an ultimatum from Moscow about the need to change the government of Latvia at the same time, while promising to avoid the system of societies and not do any other radical changes in the country. Otherwise, it would be suicidal to use military force (with a natural preponderance of forces + finding Soviet bases in Latvia.) Of course, Ulmanis encouraged the feud to give in to the demands, since he would still remain the country's president. Yes, he was still the president of the country while the new pro-Muscovite government liquidated the Latvian statehood.

        And do you think that this process happened in the case of all rights?
  45. -1
    6 October 2013 07: 26
    The title of the article gives off a rotten smell of perestroika and the 90s. Why ask such questions: “We filled the Hitlerites with corpses or fought with dignity?” And so on, an abomination.
  46. +3
    6 October 2013 08: 18
    Quote: Namejs
    everything was "bad" (what was wrong) in the Baltic countries

    In the 30s, actions were taken to create toilets in Estonia. The Lithuanians in Klaipeda met the Germans with flowers. By the way, Lithuania still considers itself offended by this agreement, but Vilnius does not return to Poland.
    1. namejs
      0
      6 October 2013 21: 20
      I don’t know how with the toilets in Estonia (then there are a lot of toilets where the world did not exist). But the fact that 17 years after the war and complete devastation in Latvia was made by the smallest small camera Minox (spies used ars before the 70s), railway cars and the largest number of students per capita is a fact.
      1. Misantrop
        +1
        7 October 2013 00: 03
        Quote: Namejs
        the fact that 17 years after the war and complete devastation in Latvia the smallest small camera Minox produced (spies used ars before the 70s), railway wagons and the largest number of students per capita is a fact.
        And the fact that the Latvians themselves have nothing to do with this is the second fact. Why? Yes, because in another case, these achievements would have been multiplied after independence. And not destroyed, as we are now observing. And this is the third fact ... request
        1. namejs
          0
          8 October 2013 01: 10
          Quote: Misantrop
          And the fact that the Latvians themselves have nothing to do with this is the second fact. Why? Yes, because in another case, these achievements would have been multiplied after independence. And not destroyed, as we are now observing. And this is the third fact.

          I did not understand what they wanted to say. To say that the technical achievements of Latvia until 1940 has no connection with the Latvians is simply absurd
  47. +2
    6 October 2013 10: 21
    The very name of the pack is a bit provocative: not a shame, not a victory, but the severe necessity of that time (of the worst options, they chose lush).
    From the standpoint of today, the agreement itself is not ambiguous, but the secret protocol to it.
    There were no allies before the agreement, and the presence or absence of the agreement would not have changed the situation.
    For so many positions, they could not use the time productively between the treaty and the outbreak of war.
    Since yesterday, I thought whether it’s worth joining the discussion (just do not need to write to some clever people that I thought little, I also know how to troll and I’m on the site not to get the pros or cons, but to communicate with reasonable, sane people who have their own, different from my views, because close views are less interesting to me - they do not allow me to revise or correct mine).
  48. -6
    6 October 2013 10: 32
    Quote: Drummer
    And what is the victory of diplomacy? The fact that the USSR entered the war without a single ally? Prevention of war would be a victory, a good result would be a quick defeat of Germany, delaying a war can only be called a success with big reservations.
    By itself, gaining time would make sense if the Soviet military-industrial complex developed faster than the German one (one could catch up), but in reality it was the other way around - Germany for 1939-41 completely updated the range of main types of weapons, while in the USSR rearmament was only it began.
    The Red Army was also unable to take advantage of it - as a result of contradictory reforms, growth diseases and personnel starvation, its combat effectiveness even decreased by 1941. The regrouping of troops from traditional places of deployment to the freshly joined western regions of Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states added problems - everyone was busy settling out, living conditions sharply worsened (even former Polish prisons adapted to barracks, but many lived in the field), and finally the prepared line of fortifications was abandoned, they didn’t have time to build a new one.
    These are only the simplest, immediate consequences of the PMR, not to mention the decline in the international image, spoiled relations with probable allies, and so on.

    One could argue with your opinion regarding the allies. And the rest, you are absolutely right. The result of INLESS government of the country is World War II. If, from the first day after the October Revolution, the government were to deal with the economy and well-being of its citizens, then there would be no war at all.
    The war does not begin in one week!
    War is prepared for YEARS: political orientation of the citizens of the enemy country. The economy is preparing in a directional way, the armed forces of the AGGRESSOR are targetedly preparing. This takes YEARS. The whole world was PREPARING for aggression against the USSR. Even the illiterate collective farmer of the USSR knew this.
    The government of the USSR itself provoked a war of the West against itself.
    Not to carry out aggression against the USSR against the backdrop of a war of the government of this state AGAINST its people would be a CRIME.
    90% in that war the government of the USSR is guilty: carelessness, myopia, illiteracy.
    1. +5
      6 October 2013 11: 08
      Quote: sellrub
      The government of the USSR itself provoked a war of the West against itself.
      Not to carry out aggression against the USSR against the backdrop of a war of the government of this state AGAINST its people would be a CRIME.

      Congenial !!! That is: revanchist sentiments in Germany after the defeat in the WWI, Hitler's rise to power and the militarization of the German economy were caused by the internal political situation in the USSR.
      And the fact that the countries of the West actively pushed Hitler on a campaign to the East was solely for the purpose of easing the hard life of the peoples of the USSR. Congenial !!!
    2. +2
      6 October 2013 11: 17
      Wars have been preparing for hundreds of years. And each of them is determined by both current and previous geopolitical layouts. And from the point of view of geopolitics, Russia interferes with many people, and it does not matter with Bolshevism or "great-power imperialism" (rightly: imperial great-power). And preparation for military action is measured over the years. Therefore, Stalin (statesman) will be a criminal, Trotsky (internationalist) will be a victim of the West. For internationalism is a squandering of national values, and, most importantly, money went to the West, no matter under what sauce. And "PMR" is just an episode of this centuries-old geopolitical drama, which temporarily changed the vector and hit the creators of this action. And the creators of that situation wanted different outcomes, but they had to save themselves, and even intervene, until all of Europe moved to the east, and not one third. The fact that Eastern Europe is again in the West is the same episode as more than four decades of being in the East before. Imagine a Group of Soviet Troops in Germany or a Group of His Imperial Majesty's Troops in Germany. Is it a big difference in the world?
    3. Misantrop
      +1
      7 October 2013 18: 43
      Quote: sellrub
      If, from the first day after the October Revolution, the government would engage in the economy and well-being of its citizens
      Do you even know what happened right after the October revolution? Or just to blurt out?
  49. lexe
    -1
    6 October 2013 12: 48
    Imagine a Group of Soviet Forces in Germany or a Group of His Imperial Majesty's Forces in Germany. A big difference for the global situation?

    I think the 2nd option is preferable laughing
    Group of His Imperial Majesty the Forces.Well, very many in Europe will not survive when they see the red banner again. And the Russian people are humane, and this fact sits in the subcortex of the Europeans. And the mentality of the enemy must also be respected laughing
  50. +2
    6 October 2013 13: 22
    I don’t see any shame, let alone apologies and excuses for anyone, as well as an equal sign between the Munich Treaty and the Moscow Treaty. Europe (s) fell under the Nazis, and now this old sh ... ha, makes up for innocence.
  51. +2
    6 October 2013 13: 33
    The discussion turned out to be exhaustive. One detail is missing. Hitler was not a criminal at the time of signing the Pact. According to all the laws of jurisprudence, he became such only after Nuremberg.
    1. Glory333
      +2
      6 October 2013 14: 32
      I will also add that Nuremberg recognized Hitler as a criminal for crimes committed after August 1939.
  52. +1
    6 October 2013 16: 02
    Let the shitcrats wipe themselves off. I consider this a Victory for the USSR, but the fact that others took advantage of this Victory is another matter.
  53. Janis S.U.
    +4
    6 October 2013 17: 21
    Regarding the so-called “occupation” of our republics. Firstly, the overwhelming majority of the people of Latvia wanted to join their Metropolis, since hatred of the Germans was still quite strong at that time. In addition, dictator Ulmanis, after the well-known coup in our country, deprived many of their faith in the justice of the then authorities. This is an unconditional fact that only a complete scoundrel can try to dispute. Secondly, occupation implies resistance by the occupied and the overthrow of legitimate authorities. However, after the entry of the Red Army units, the Ulmanis government remained in power for some time, after which re-election was carried out. There was no resistance, or even any loud attempts at condemnation. Particularly noteworthy is the fact that the military that entered Latvia did not take the reins of power into their own hands, and in all subsequent years the heads of ministries and departments, not to mention the highest posts in the Latvian SSR, were in the hands of ethnic Latvians. Thirdly, representatives of Latvian nationality had advantages when entering elite higher educational institutions of the USSR, in other words, they entered without entrance exams and even with poor knowledge of the Russian language (!). In addition, with equivalent professional data, Latvians were certainly appointed to responsible positions in the Latvian SSR. Fourthly, schools and universities in the Latvian language not only remained, but also actively developed from the material and technical side, and also increased in number. Fifthly, paperwork in the police, party bodies, government agencies, and so on was carried out without fail in two languages. In those cases where there were no or only a small percentage of Russian speakers in settlements and enterprises, documentation was often generally conducted only in Latvian. Fifthly, in Soviet times, Latvians, who, as a rule, were quite good officers, entered military schools with enviable tenacity and due zeal. Sixthly, there were also Latvians in the highest leadership positions of the USSR, who, with their example of loyalty and duty, could give odds to many other representatives of the nationalities inhabiting the USSR.
    All this indicates the falsity of statements about the mythical occupation of my republic and the reluctance of the people to live together with essentially brothers and good neighbors. Nowadays lies and hypocrisy rule the roost, but it’s still not so difficult to get to the bottom of the truth, as long as you don’t be zombified by the national-separatist heresy and Russophobic bitterness.
    1. namejs
      -3
      8 October 2013 01: 37
      Quote: Janis SU
      Firstly, the people of Latvia overwhelmingly wanted to join their Metropolis,

      Well, well.. And who were these majority of the people? Christians? entrepreneurs or teachers? or those more than 60 people who were deported to Soviet concentration camps?

      Quote: Janis SU
      since hatred of the Germans was still quite strong at that time.

      Absolutely right! Everything changed after just one year in the USSR. The question is why? Have you ever thought about it?

      Quote: Janis SU
      In addition, dictator Ulmanis, after the well-known coup in our country, deprived many of their faith in the justice of the then authorities. This is an unconditional fact that only a complete scoundrel can try to dispute.

      The fact that Ulmanis liquidated democracy in Latvia is certainly a crime

      But he cannot be compared with such dictators as Stalin or Hitler. Under Ulmanis (in 6 years), not a single political enemy was eliminated. A few were behind bars (political imprisonment).
      No matter how it happened, I don’t want to justify the coup he provided - it was a betrayal of the ideals of November 18!

      And no matter how it was, Ulmanis’s regime did not have any right to carry out annexation of the Republic of Latvia, not to mention interfering in internal affairs
      Quote: Janis SU
      Secondly, occupation implies resistance by the occupied and the overthrow of legitimate authorities.

      What can we read in the ultimatum of June 16 addressed to Ulmanis - to change the government and allow additional contingents of the Red Army into the country, while ordering not to change the social order and not to take other radical actions.
      Ulmanis believed (when in general the Bolsheviks could be trusted) and agreed to the conditions and, speaking before the people, called on him to remain in his place, saying that everything would be fine.
      The process of annexation itself occurred very consistently so that no spontaneous resistance arose.
      Quote: Janis SU
      not even any loud attempts at condemnation

      One might think that this was possible considering that all those who disagreed were quickly eliminated. Well, for example, everyone except the list of communists was arrested a day before the elections...
      Quote: Janis SU
      However, after the entry of the Red Army units, the Ulmanis government remained in power for some time,

      Ulmanis's government literally immediately resigned. He only retained the post of president of the country, but then he could only sign the new laws of the pro-Moscow government and then parliament.
      Quote: Janis SU
      after which re-election was carried out


      As I mentioned above, a day before the election, candidates competing for deputy seats were arrested. Only one list of “communists and workers” participated in the elections. This cannot be called an election.
      1. Shogun23
        0
        12 October 2013 15: 26
        Quote: Namejs
        Well, well.. And who were these majority of the people? Christians? entrepreneurs or teachers? or those more than 60 people who were deported to Soviet concentration camps?

        Here are the voting results in the Baltics, Lithuania - 99,2%, Latvia - 97,8%, Estonia - 92,8% And if you start screaming that “there were only communists cluck-dah-dah”, then read about the conditions according to who needed to participate in the elections, and at the same time think about why things didn’t work out for others. And by the way, in the 40 elections the turnout was the highest in the 30s.
        Quote: Namejs
        And no matter how it was, Ulmanis’s regime did not have any right to carry out annexation of the Republic of Latvia, not to mention interfering in internal affairs

        Annexation? Read up on what annexation is, and then throw around such words.
        Quote: Namejs
        One might think that this was possible considering that all those who disagreed were quickly eliminated. Well, for example, everyone except the list of communists was arrested a day before the elections...

        Complete
        Quote: Namejs
        Ulmanis's government literally immediately resigned. He only retained the post of president of the country, but then he could only sign the new laws of the pro-Moscow government and then parliament.

        After the entry of Soviet troops, the government of the Baltic republics acted for almost a year, right up to an ultimatum (and not at all groundless)
    2. namejs
      -2
      8 October 2013 01: 43
      Quote: Janis SU
      , not to mention the highest positions in the Latvian SSR were in the hands of ethnic Latvians.


      So what ? The Latish Red Rifles fought against independent Latvia and that is why they no longer have any political relationship against Latvia.

      the mentioned ethnic Latish are mostly Latish from Russia whose ancestors left Latvia a long time ago and did not even know the Latish language (except for a few exceptions. These were just proxies to create the impression that Latish are in power in Latvia
      Quote: Janis SU
      Fourthly, schools and universities in the Latvian language not only remained, but also actively developed from the material and technical side, and also increased in number. Fifthly, paperwork in the police, party bodies, government agencies, and so on was carried out without fail in two languages. In those cases where there were no or only a small percentage of Russian speakers in settlements and enterprises, documentation was often generally conducted only in Latvian. Fifthly, in Soviet times, Latvians, who, as a rule, were quite good officers, entered military schools with enviable tenacity and due zeal.


      Everything is very beautiful. But what does this have to do with the illegal annexation of Latvia by the USSR? Or do you really want to justify the crimes of the Soviets against the independence of Latvia?
      1. Shogun23
        0
        12 October 2013 15: 30
        Quote: Namejs
        But what does this have to do with the illegal annexation of Latvia by the USSR? Or do you really want to justify the crimes of the Soviets against the independence of Latvia?

        And what was this “illegality”? and what were the “crimes”? Or maybe you naively believe that the Baltic states would not participate in the war with Germany and in general the war would bypass them?
  54. +3
    6 October 2013 20: 35
    There is no need to be afraid to be ashamed of your history, at that time the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was vital for us, and it was a Victory of Soviet diplomacy
  55. NOMAD
    +6
    6 October 2013 21: 00
    Why should the USSR and Russia make excuses!? Firstly, the USSR, as you remember, did everything to avoid sudden movements in relation to European countries! conducted diplomatic work with many countries! England, Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc. But European countries played their own game! To pacify Germany! That is, they concluded bilateral agreements with this country! But when Germany began aggression and annexation of the territories of these countries, it was already too late! Just look at the Munich Agreement! Then when many countries rejected the help of the USSR! The latter had only to conclude an agreement with Germany for his own safety! Europe had already been suppressed by Germany! So there is nothing for Russia to repent of before Europe as the legal successor of the USSR! On the contrary, some European countries owe it to the USSR to restore their independence and territorial integrity! Czechoslovakia regained the Sudetenland after the war, Poland previously annexed territory, Austria was liberated and its statehood restored! England had the opportunity to finish off the Nazis in a military alliance with the USSR! Let them repent and admit the mistakes of their governments!
    1. 0
      7 October 2013 12: 19
      Bravo NOMAD!

      It's nice to hear common sense thoughts.

      good
  56. +3
    6 October 2013 23: 02
    Definitely a victory. Few people will write sincerely. Therefore, I believe that this victory can be denied either by ordinary fools and mediocrities, or by people openly hostile to Russia. Better yet, stop with these discussions, the topic is frankly provocative.
  57. +3
    7 October 2013 06: 22
    And our prostitutes from the State Duma, etc. The "world community" is playing "hit and miss". From the word priest. History has no subjunctive mood. This has all already happened. Russia DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT HAVE an obligation to apologize to anyone. You need to look after YOUR interests and benefits. The rest is from the evil one.
  58. smiths xnumx
    +2
    7 October 2013 12: 33
    Critics of the Moscow Treaty of 1939 speak exclusively with traditional “Soviet” postulates - “The Government of the USSR acts in the interests of the peoples of the whole world” and “From the taiga to the British seas, the Red Army is the strongest of all.” But you can’t be such an idiot as to confuse propaganda slogans and reality. Why do all the governments of the world care about their own interests, and poor Russia should care about the whole world? Yes, indeed, Stalin since the early 1920s. Until August 1939, he was afraid of the outbreak of a world war and rightly believed that it would affect the USSR in any case, and in every possible way opposed changing the status quo in the world. Again, we must distinguish between communist propaganda about the victory of the world revolution and the real plans of the Soviet government. There is no doubt that the USSR provided material support to the communists in various countries. But it could not be compared with the help of the USSR to the bourgeois governments of China (Chiang Kai-shek), Spain and Czechoslovakia, where hundreds of aircraft, tanks and artillery systems were sent.
    Why couldn’t Stalin, like Western theorists, assume that the war in the West, following the example of the First World War, would be of a positional nature, since the French trumpeted to the whole world about the inaccessibility of the Maginot Line. Thus, after two or three years of trench warfare, the opponents would be exhausted, and the Red Army, without firing a single shot, could dictate its terms. Who could even in a nightmare dream that the armies of Poland, France, England, Holland, Belgium, Norway, Greece and others would not only scatter before the Germans, but would also gallantly hand over to them all their weapons completely intact and intact, and factories throughout Europe, including “neutral” Sweden, will they start working for the Third Reich?
    Having signed an agreement with Germany, Molotov, with one stroke of his pen, put an end to hostilities in the Far East, where, in addition to major battles on Lake Khasan and the Khalkhin Gol River, military clashes periodically occurred on the Soviet-Manchurian border from 1937 to September 1939. But after the signing of the agreement and until August 8, 1945, the border became relatively quiet. The 1939 treaty was forced and, like all forced treaties, was temporary. And so far, not a single critic of the treaty has proposed a reasonable alternative to the actions of the Soviet leadership. Who did time work for in 1939–1941 is a moot question, and it awaits the study of objective historians, and not idiots, for whom Pilsudski, who demanded the return of the borders of 1772, that is, 150 years ago, is a hero, and Hitler and Stalin, villains who decided to restore the borders of twenty years ago and return the lands that had belonged to Germany and Russia for centuries and were taken from them by force.
    Many sages said: “Practice is the criterion of truth.” If Molotov and Ribbentrop established such unfair borders in a villainous agreement in 1939, then who interfered in 1991–2008? the corresponding countries not to change their borders to the state in August 1939? After all, the borders in Germany and Czechoslovakia were changed, peacefully and to everyone’s satisfaction. It’s strange why all the detractors of the 1939 treaty in Poland, the Baltic countries, etc. “fall on their faces” before the borders drawn by such “radishes” as Molotov and Ribbentrop?
    1. 0
      7 October 2013 13: 27
      Quote: Kuznetsov 1977
      “Practice is the criterion of truth”

      Worthy comment, THANK YOU good
    2. lexe
      -2
      8 October 2013 15: 52
      Why couldn’t Stalin, like Western theorists, assume that the war in the West, following the example of the First World War, would be of a positional nature, since the French trumpeted to the whole world about the inaccessibility of the Maginot Line.

      Do you think Stalin received information about the nature of the new war from the media???
      Yes...apparently the media was a more reliable source than external intelligence - and here you can’t deny Stalin’s genius. But really, where to get information from...after all, Stalin himself put intelligence to the wall.
      And what about the fact that new methods of war have already been developed in local conflicts all over the world?
      In addition.. for the sake of the goal, they will not spare mountains of concrete with a noticeable% of the gross product. With the goal of relaxing French society to the state of WOOL! together with CONCRETE on the border!
      And it was this WOOL CONCRETE that the Soviet leadership was guided by???
      Who do you want as leader again? again supporters of cotton wool? Don’t you feel sorry for the Russian people?
      1. Shogun23
        0
        12 October 2013 15: 02
        Quote: Lexi
        And what about the fact that new methods of war have already been developed in local conflicts all over the world?
        These local conflicts, in terms of the duration of action, were in no way comparable to those in the French company; even the conflict at Khalkhin Gol lasted longer, not to mention the civil war in Spain or the second Sino-Japanese War.
  59. +1
    8 October 2013 12: 06
    Were there others? real options?
    Fight with the same + Poland + faster to Moscow?
    They removed a potential ally of Germany with millions of soldiers.
    They returned the territories in anticipation of the future development of the country (they didn’t think about it in a day).

    Just the word"pact" betrays someone else's attitude. An agreement, not a pact.
    And there is nothing special in the agreement itself. But the so-called It would be good to study the secret protocol to it in detail, especially for authenticity.

    It is interesting that the text of the Treaty is not in the article. What are we discussing?

    Article I
    Both Contracting Parties undertake to refrain from any violence, from any aggressive action and any attack against each other, both separately and jointly with other powers.

    - this is certainly a violation of all international rights!
    And similar things throughout the text of the Treaty. Horror!
  60. ogazar
    0
    8 October 2013 20: 45
    I completely agree with the author. And with its argumentation and moral justification. On all counts.