Generals Criticize F-15

128
Generals Criticize F-15

Seventeen retired generals who in the past occupied the post of chief of staff of the South Korean Air Force sent an open letter to the presidential administration, the Ministry of Defense and the country's parliament demanding that F-60 SE fighter planes be abandoned. According to the military, the planes are already outdated and cannot be called "next-generation fighter aircraft", which Seoul intended to acquire for its Air Force as part of its rearmament program. The purchase decision can be made in the coming days.

Recall that at the moment the Administration of Defense Procurement Programs (APOZ) of the Republic of Korea is holding a tender for the second stage of the renewal of the fleet of combat aircraft for the Air Force of the country. The project is called FX. Seoul intends to purchase 60 combat vehicles, for which 8 trillions of 300 billions (7,45 billion dollars) have been allocated. This is the largest defense order of South Korea for the entire post-war history, because of what he was already dubbed "the contract of the century." From the outset, there were three applicants: the American Lockheed Martin concern, which offered the F-35А fighter, also representing the US Boeing with the F-15SE Silent Eagle aircraft and the European EADS concern with the Eurofighter Mk III Typhoon. However, F-35, which has long been considered the favorite, was rejected due to overcharging, and Eurofighter due to breach of contract terms. As a result, F-15SE fighters of the Boeing concern were the only contenders to reach the final stage. Seoul now must either call him the winner of the tender, or cancel the results and start all over again.

As reported by Enkhap news agency, 17 air force generals, who in the past at various times occupied the post of chief of staff of the air force, wrote an open letter to the country's leadership. The message was delivered to the addressees of August 27, but it is only now that senior military officials are aware of this step.

In the letter, the generals strongly oppose the purchase of F-15SE, considering it to be outdated and not meeting the requirements of the next generation aircraft. They recall that the F-15 was developed as early as the 1970-ies. and can not be used for a long time, as it began to become obsolete. In addition, it is emphasized that the model proposed by Korea is not yet fully ready.

Strong criticism was voiced to the government and the Ministry of Defense, on whose behalf the Agency of Defense Procurement Programs of the Republic of Korea operates. “APOZ applied the absurd principle, saying that it would not even increase 10 won the contract value in 8,3 trillion won. The entire FX project should be revised from the very beginning, changing the evaluation criteria,” the letter says.

The media notes that many military pilots agree with this position, considering that F-15SE cannot be operated for the next 30 years, as planned by the rearmament program. According to rumors, the Air Force of South Korea would like to purchase the F-35, which are the only contenders to be the fifth-generation “invisible fighters”. Note that during the first stage of rearmament of the Korean Air Force a few years earlier, Seoul had already bought 60 aircraft from the Boeing concern.

The decision on the project can be made in the coming days. An expanded meeting of the APLA chaired by Korean Defense Minister Kim Gwan Jin is scheduled for September at 20-21. The military can call Boeing a winner, take more time to study the issue further, or announce the cancellation of tender results.
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  1. +31
    13 September 2013 09: 41
    As if the South Koreans have a choice ... Americans need to sell their obsolete products ...
    1. +17
      13 September 2013 09: 52
      Considering how much the US still has such "outdated" technology. Many countries of the NATO bloc and not only will not have a choice in buying equipment)))
      1. +9
        13 September 2013 10: 00
        SE probably should be understood as
        second edition
        Tipo Second Edition? how with windows?
        or does it mean something else?
        1. +14
          13 September 2013 10: 04
          Quote: Aryan
          SE probably should be understood as

          SE - Silent Eagle, silent eagle.
          1. +18
            13 September 2013 15: 48
            Quote: Vladimirets
            SE - Silent Eagle, silent eagle.


            Immediately I remembered the Sleepy ermine "hot heads"
        2. +5
          13 September 2013 10: 05
          Quote: Aryan
          SE probably should be understood as
          second edition
          Tipo Second Edition? how with windows?
          or does it mean something else?


          The main thing is not Sekond Hand =)
          1. +1
            14 September 2013 01: 07
            second hand?
        3. +14
          13 September 2013 11: 50
          F-15SE, considering it outdated and not meeting the requirements of the next generation aircraft. They recall that the F-15 was developed back in the 1970s. and cannot be used for a long time

          At least to date, the United States does not have a better strike aircraft. I don’t think that it’s a good idea to buy an F-15 CE or an F-Z5 instead, though ... how to look at it. The North Korean military will sincerely smile at such a replacement - an honest workaholic who has gone through more than one conflict for a badly flying iron. And there is no need to start with answers like "high intellectualization of the aircraft, powerful and modern avionics" all this will not override its minuses. It will be effective only with overwhelming air supremacy and the absence of more or less effective air defense.
          1. bif
            +5
            13 September 2013 17: 13
            You will be even more delighted, but given the historical experience of such "Appeals", .... this is just a cry from the military industrial complex (Lockheed) to increase the tender amount, then they with their "wonderful" F-35 will fit into the price. Here is the key offer - "APOS applied an absurd principle, saying that it will not increase the value of the 10 trillion won contract by even 8,3 won. The entire FX project should be reviewed from the outset by changing the evaluation criteria," the letter said.
      2. +13
        13 September 2013 10: 53
        Quote: ....
        According to the military, the aircraft are already outdated and cannot be called "next generation fighters"

        Aircraft as an aircraft of generation 4 ++ with the use of technologies for reducing radar signature. I don’t like to make your own or buy the MiG-21 is an excellent machine. They are currently being modernized, and RSK MiG has the ability to reduce the effective scattering surface (EPR) of MiG-21 bis fighters by covering them with radio-absorbing material. And for example, MIG-21-93, a perfectly modernized MIG, defeats the F-15 and F-16. By the way, officially!
        1. duke
          +4
          13 September 2013 10: 58
          or let them buy a su-35, than not an option good
          1. bif
            +1
            13 September 2013 17: 19
            will be VERY surprised, but such Appeals were already in the distant 1998 year))))
            "What could be more ironic ... Soviet fighters for the American fleet?
            Bob Kress, former Lead Program Engineer Grumman and F-14 Chief Program Engineer and retired Rear Admiral, former naval fighter pilot Paul Gilikrist provide convincing arguments ... http: //suavia.info/page/22 /
        2. postman
          +1
          13 September 2013 11: 28
          Quote: Vadivak
          And for example, the MIG-21-93, a perfectly modernized MIG Wins over the F-15 and F-16. By the way officially!

          ??
          Seriously, where when?
          Buffalo:

          The Indian Air Force (IAF) is now adding stealth modifications to an existing $ 340m program to upgrade 125 of its MiG-21bis fighters to MiG-21-93 standard.
          $ 340 / $ 000 = $ 000 worth of pleasure. NOT EXPENSIVE
          Confuses the fiction declared in LTH


          "The radius of combat use, km 1000

          Ferry range, km 2000 "

          the combat radius was 1000 km with 1790 kg of fuel
          ??


          23rd is even cooler:

          "The radius of combat use, km 1470
          Ferry range, km 2820 "
          1. +4
            13 September 2013 15: 30
            Quote: Postman
            This is serious,

            According to the OKB, the MiG-21-93 in a medium-range combat will be equivalent to the Mirage 2000 fighter and better than the F-16.

            Recently, a number of media reported on the participation of the upgraded MiG-21BIS UPG fighters of the Indian Air Force in training air battles with the American F-15C fighters. During them, the American fighter was repeatedly conditionally shot down by Miga attacks.

            Yuri Guskov, Deputy General Director, First Deputy General Designer of the Fazotron-NIIR Corporation, commented on this to Interfax-AVN: 21I 'development and production of the Fazotron-NIIR corporation. The report of one of the Russian media that the modernized MiG - 21 Bizon was allegedly equipped with Israeli electronics does not correspond to reality. The basis of this upgrade is the Kopyo-21I radar.
            1. postman
              +1
              14 September 2013 00: 52
              Vadim ... well, it's not really:
              Quote: Vadivak
              Defeats the F-15 and F-16. By the way officially!

              it's ... like a press.
              I heard that the upgraded Mig-23 yes ...
              about 21 is poorly trusted. All generations are not the same.
              Note:
              'Spear-21I'- how ours managed to "pack" in the central cone xs, the mind is not understandable.
              in terms of parameters it (radar) is certainly worse than the 29th.
              But ...
              Quote: Vadivak
              Two modernized aircraft took part in Indian-American military exercises

              I watched the Indian record, I didn’t understand a fig, but I didn’t find anything about "victory" either.
        3. +2
          13 September 2013 11: 29
          And can you elaborate on the account of victories? I want to be happy for the domestic aviation industry)
        4. +1
          13 September 2013 11: 33
          And in the photo, the Pakistani J-6 developed by China as an export version.
          1. +4
            13 September 2013 15: 24
            Quote: Argon
            And in the photo, the Pakistani J-6 developed by China as an export version

            In vain you pin up Vadivak. In the photo Mig-21 (J-7). J-6 is our Mig-19.
            1. +5
              13 September 2013 15: 42
              Quote: Odyssey
              Nothing to pin up Vadivak.



              Yes, let it be as much as you like, at least the Chengdu J-7E, even the F-BS, one horseradish MiG-21F-13.

              It is already problematic to single out the results of the battles between the MiG-21 and the Phantom in a separate line, although the ratio of 1,4: 1 is reliably known in favor of the North Vietnamese fighter. It would seem that it is impossible to talk about a resounding victory with such a balance. But only if the following fact is not taken into account: the success of the MiGami was achieved with a sixfold numerical superiority of the enemy.
              1. Avenger711
                +1
                13 September 2013 21: 34
                With ambush tactics completely. Amer truly believe that the bill is in their favor. In general, the score of frags of each of the parties can be divided by 3-6.
        5. +8
          13 September 2013 15: 02
          Quote: Vadivak
          Aircraft as a 4 ++ generation aircraft using technologies for reducing radar visibility. Do not like making your own or buy a MiG-21 great car They are now just being upgraded

          Considering that they were once offered the Su-35 and they didn’t take it, the idea of ​​pushing the MiG-21 to them looks cynical smile
          But, by the way, the Mig-21-93 is a really decent car.
          Quote: Vadivak
          They are currently being modernized, and RSK MiG has the ability to reduce the effective scattering surface (ESR) of MiG-21 bis fighters by covering them with radio-absorbing material.

          The MiG-21 "by nature" has a small EPR. If you also cover the RPM, you get "Silent Balalaika"
          1. +2
            13 September 2013 16: 00
            Quote: Odyssey
            The MiG-21 "by nature" has a small EPR. If you also cover the RPM, you get "Silent Balalaika"


            The same as the F-16. 3 sq.m. but the lion's share of EPR (without external suspensions) is given, oddly enough, by the engine compressors, and on the 21st the compressor blades are "shielded" by a wedge of the air intake

            For comparison, the modernized B-52 25-100, by the way the S-300 air defense system, is capable of firing targets with an EPR of 0.02 m ^ 2
            1. +2
              13 September 2013 17: 57
              Quote: Vadivak

              The same as the F-16. 3 sq.m. but the lion's share of EPR (without external suspensions) is given, oddly enough, by the engine compressors, and on the 21st the compressor blades are "shielded" by a wedge of the air intake

              Even a little smaller than the F-16C. And this is without RPM. It’s hard to push one pitifully powerful radar into the Mig-21.
              Quote: Vadivak
              By the way, the S-300 SAM, is capable of firing targets with an EPR of 0.02 m ^ 2

              Probably capable, we must ask the anti-aircraft gunners, but the target with an epr of 0,02 is tough ... It’s difficult to shoot down in time.
              1. +1
                13 September 2013 22: 17
                Quote: Odyssey

                Even a little smaller than the F-16C. And this is without RPM. It’s hard to push one pitifully powerful radar into the Mig-21.
                do not push anything anywhere. Now there are hanging containers with additional equipment.
        6. -1
          13 September 2013 16: 34
          Quote: Vadivak
          And for example, the MIG-21-93, a perfectly modernized MIG Wins over the F-15 and F-16. By the way officially!

          More on this, plz
    2. +1
      13 September 2013 12: 13
      yeah ... even in "high-tech" japan, there are still FANTOMS to intercept our STRATEGIES ...
      1. +2
        13 September 2013 12: 54
        Quote: Andrey Yurievich
        yeah ... even in "high-tech" japan, there are still FANTOMS to intercept our STRATEGIES ...

        The fact that phantoms fly to a meeting with strategists doesn’t mean anything yet. The Japanese Self-Defense Forces have their licensed copies of the F-16. Also, under an agreement with Lockheed, as soon as the F-35 is brought to mind, they will also receive a license and with their modifications will do it for themselves.
        1. +2
          13 September 2013 13: 34
          Japanese is not exactly a copy, it has increased glider sizes and wing area compared to the original, in addition, the filling is different
          1. +1
            13 September 2013 13: 48
            Quote: tomket
            Japanese is not exactly a copy, it has increased glider sizes and wing area compared to the original, in addition, the filling is different

            Well, about the same as the Chinese J-15 in relation to the SU-33 laughing
            If Japan itself did everything, and then a glider was taken, a little modified, and the engine inside is American. And to hang inside other electronics well, so the Japanese guys are not basted.
      2. +3
        13 September 2013 16: 49
        Quote: Andrey Yurievich
        even in "high-tech" Japan, there are still PHANTOMS to intercept our


        Well, given that the Japanese industry has developed several of its electronic systems for the fighter, including SPO J / APR-2 and command guidance equipment APR-670 for operation with air defense control systems. The aircraft received the designation F-4EJ. Mitsubishi equipped the aircraft with refueling units and equipment for attacking ground targets. Now some of them have been upgraded according to the Kai program in order to extend the resource and update equipment. in particular, they installed a modern pulse-Doppler radar AN / APG-66J, a central computer that performed basic combat and navigation calculations. For suspension under the fuselage adapted the fuel tank from the F-15 fighter for 2309 liters. Arsenal replenished anti-ship missile ASM-1. The first F-4EJ Kai took off on July 17, 1984. A total of 96 vehicles were modernized, 29 of which were converted into RF-4EJ Kai scouts. Now the Japanese Air Force plans to carry out another modernization of the Phantoms in order to keep them in service until 2020.

        But slowly the ATD-X 5th generation Japanese fighter is riveting
        1. bif
          +2
          13 September 2013 17: 08
          no offense to the Japanese. While their 5-e generation flies in the drawings.
        2. 0
          13 September 2013 18: 07
          In light of allegations of joining the F-35 program, the fate of the ATD-X is unclear.

          UPD:
          And, no, I’m watching, the program continues - next year they want to finish building a prototype.
      3. Avenger711
        0
        13 September 2013 21: 34
        Japan’s high-tech myth, everything is very old there.
        1. +2
          13 September 2013 22: 11
          Where is there? And what exactly is old?
    3. +5
      13 September 2013 14: 13
      The aircraft was really adopted in 1976. But he underwent many modernizations and, in my opinion, more than a thousand were released. If you believe the press, he took part in many conflicts and not a single battle loss was recorded. Hand on heart, the plane is wonderful, although it is really starting to become obsolete.
    4. AVV
      0
      13 September 2013 14: 52
      All rubbish to their allies! Second-hand or F-35 at a frantic price, although they could buy from Italians or Swedes, but politics is above all !!!
      1. +3
        13 September 2013 17: 04
        Do you know what the F-15SE is? If not, find out, if so, why do you call a second-hand? With the same success, the Su-35 can be called a second-hand.
    5. Algor73
      +1
      13 September 2013 20: 15
      And why there is no choice7 But they bought (well, even on account of debt) in 1996-1997 the T-80. Of course, the United States is pushing hard, but not so much as to give up something good. Simply, the choice is small, since in the UK almost all Russian (Soviet or their own and Chinese English) weapons. The problem is different - the F-15 is already obsolete, the F-35 is prohibitively expensive, so think about where they are, beautiful or smart.
      1. +1
        13 September 2013 20: 44
        The Republic of Kazakhstan received all our equipment on account of debts. Then there was simply no other way to get your money. There is cooperation in some areas, but there is no talk of abandoning the old strategic partners.

        I repeat, but if you call Silent Eagle morally obsolete, then all modifications of 5th generation fighters are morally obsolete, no matter what modern equipment is on them.
    6. 0
      13 September 2013 23: 23
      As if the South Koreans have a choice ... Americans need to sell their obsolete products ...

      they need more sales of a flying iron from Lockheed Martin
    7. elgi
      +2
      13 September 2013 23: 48
      I totally agree. They would try to buy Russian planes :)
  2. +3
    13 September 2013 09: 43
    good news. maybe p. indos and sell the contract, but the news is good for us. not all cat shrovetide
  3. +19
    13 September 2013 09: 46
    South Korean generals clearly do not read Russian forums and the press. Otherwise, they would have long ago been told the "sensational news" that the F-35 is a "dough cut" and "iron" laughing
    For some reason, they want to buy it, not Silent Eagle.
    1. +1
      13 September 2013 09: 52
      Nevertheless, only the old F-15 horse got to the final stage ...
      The South Korean Air Force would like to acquire the F-35s, which are the only contenders to be fifth generation stealth fighters.
      Well, let's be objective ... not the fifth generation, at least one parameter ...
      1. +1
        13 September 2013 10: 06
        Quote: We refund_SSSR
        Nevertheless, only the old F-15 horse got to the final stage ...

        Dear Oleg Kaptsov will be pleased. He is a big fan of Art Nouveau-Ilgov (Striker, Silent). By the way, Silent will have his debut))
        Quote: We refund_SSSR
        Well, let's be objective ... not the fifth generation, at least one parameter.

        According to one criterion, the Raptor is not fifth - it is not multifunctional, and with the "information picture of the battle" it has no ice. So the fifth does not exist at all)))
        1. 0
          13 September 2013 10: 44
          Quote: Odyssey
          According to one criterion, the Raptor is not fifth - it is not multifunctional, and with the "information picture of the battle" it has no ice. So the fifth does not exist at all)))

          Well, somewhere it is, and actually about it.
          There is also a parameter "super maneuverability" and with it "there" is also sadness (we will do without holivars about necessity ... just a fact).
        2. +9
          13 September 2013 10: 58
          Quote: Odyssey
          Dear Oleg Kaptsov will be pleased. He is a big fan of modern


          Me too, if the thing you need is why throw it away? For example, I’m just bleeding from the balalaika, he’s been in the ranks for 50 years and is relevant
        3. Avenger711
          -1
          13 September 2013 21: 36
          Well, Kaptsov will be right.
      2. 0
        13 September 2013 13: 36
        it’s better then to get a super Honet, based on the time factor of service.
    2. 0
      13 September 2013 14: 56
      Simple: the generals were paid for kipish, those who made the F-35, that's the whole plot. hi
      1. +1
        13 September 2013 17: 39
        Quote: cherkas.oe
        Simple: the generals were paid for kipish, those who made the F-35, that's the whole plot.

        Perhaps, but illogical. The F-35 is sold in 10 countries. There is a huge order portfolio, why the hell is it cutting so much for a Korean order? And Silent has everything so far.
  4. +1
    13 September 2013 09: 49
    Oh, the South Koreans are bargaining that North Korea will have Chinese aircraft.
  5. FireFly
    -17
    13 September 2013 09: 54
    Quote: Silkway0026
    good news. maybe p. indos and sell the contract, but the news is good for us. not all cat shrovetide

    The states will slightly drop the price, and all business ... or some kind of thread will offer an additional service.
    In general, "Needles" will go to school as children.
    You have nothing to rejoice about; yours will not be bought anyway.
    1. Mr. Gambu4aS
      +5
      13 September 2013 10: 09
      Yes, it doesn’t hurt, it’s necessary to sell them our swallows) And lately you don’t even know how to rejoice or get upset about deliveries of weapons abroad, then you need to arm yourself and they are exported, so let America alloy them with scrap!
      1. +2
        13 September 2013 10: 27
        Quote: Mr. Gambu4aS
        Yes, it doesn’t hurt, it’s necessary, to sell them our swallows) And lately you don’t even know whether to rejoice or be upset about the supply of weapons abroad,
        Yeah, it’s better to sell to South Koreans than to Chinese. At least these people do not show interest in entering the Arctic, and they still have enough land. And in unlicensed copying Koreans, unlike the Chinese, are not seen.
    2. +3
      13 September 2013 11: 56
      Quote: FireFly
      You have nothing to rejoice about; yours will not be bought anyway.

      They won't buy ours, and you will soon have nothing to offer except bacon. Enter the economic zone of the European Union, finish off the agonizing capacities of Antonov, Yuzhmash and knock out Motor Sich and that's it, that's it.
      1. 0
        13 September 2013 12: 12
        Quote: velikoros-xnumx
        and besides fat soon you will have nothing to offer.

        They no longer have their own daaaavno to offer anyone else.
    3. +2
      13 September 2013 13: 30
      Quote: FireFly
      You have nothing to rejoice about; yours will not be bought anyway.

      And this is of course a reason to rejoice at you.
      1. FireFly
        0
        13 September 2013 14: 17
        We - as in the song: "We don't care." In the field of fighters, we are not competing ... laughing
    4. rolik
      0
      13 September 2013 16: 48
      Quote: FireFly
      The states will slightly drop the price, and all business ... or some kind of thread will offer an additional service.

      When buying an airplane, the 5th iPhone as a gift))))))
    5. fedorovith
      0
      13 September 2013 22: 14
      Who will sell it?
      1. +1
        14 September 2013 11: 41
        Who will sell it?
        China.
  6. +2
    13 September 2013 09: 58
    Silent Eagle is a workhorse for a sufficiently long period. Nobody wants to recognize the Su-35 as obsolete, and the F-15SE is exactly the same modern modification of the 4th generation fighter.
    1. 0
      13 September 2013 13: 39
      su-35 doesn’t have more tidbits in the form of raptors behind it, about t-50 is inappropriately, let it be rolled in first, then sold
      1. +1
        13 September 2013 13: 49
        Quote: tomket
        su-35 doesn’t have more tidbits in the form of raptors behind it, about t-50 is inappropriately, let it be rolled in first, then sold

        It is better to first saturate the Russian Air Force. And it will be as usual. Break in and exported. and your cookie.
        1. +3
          13 September 2013 16: 06
          Quote: PROXOR
          And it will be as usual. Break in and exported. and your cookie.


          Very much money is needed either the ministers steal or the generals are malnourished
        2. 0
          13 September 2013 22: 16
          Well, there are contracts for the Su-35.
      2. amp
        amp
        0
        13 September 2013 14: 07
        The raptor is discontinued.
  7. 0
    13 September 2013 09: 59
    Amers already considered this money to be their own, and then Seoul climbed into his soul and pocket. I think that amer’s cries about the military of the northern neighbor will begin and pressure will increase under this
    1. +4
      13 September 2013 10: 11
      Quote: andrei332809
      Amers already considered this money to be their own, and then Seoul climbed into his soul and pocket. I think that amer’s cries about the military of the northern neighbor will begin and pressure will increase under this

      The debate is about choosing between two American planes
  8. +1
    13 September 2013 10: 01
    One stump Koreans in flight, that with F-15, that with F-35: the first is outdated, the second is prohibitively expensive, and besides, the airplane is still shitty.
    1. +3
      13 September 2013 10: 12
      Quote: Sunjar
      One stump Koreans in flight, that with F-15, that with F-35: the first is outdated, the second is prohibitively expensive, and besides, the airplane is still shitty.

      You, esteemed, esthete. If the newest Silent Ilg is outdated for you, and the Penguin is shit, then what is normal?
  9. FireFly
    -10
    13 September 2013 10: 09
    Quote: Odyssey
    South Korean generals clearly do not read Russian forums and the press. Otherwise, they would have long ago been told the "sensational news" that the F-35 is a "dough cut" and "iron"

    Yes Yes. All around are fools, and only at the "Russian Forums" wherever you spit - you will fall into a great strategist laughing
    F35th - this is one of the parts of a unified battle control system, and performs its tasks.
    1. +4
      13 September 2013 10: 26
      Quote: FireFly
      The F35th is one of the parts of a unified combat control system, and performs its tasks

      Well, for now, we don’t know whether it is fulfilling or not fulfilling. As they say, practice will show.
      But we are too scolded F-35, it causes a smile. By the way there are people who praise him too much. We have an emotional people))
    2. +6
      13 September 2013 10: 29
      Yes, how do you know she is fulfilling her tasks or is it in the hangar while it is raining?
    3. +9
      13 September 2013 11: 24
      Quote: FireFly
      wherever you spit - you will fall into a great strategist

      And that is why they do not go to the "Ukrainian Forums", so as not to run into even more strategists and specialists! wassat
    4. +3
      13 September 2013 21: 19
      Quote: FireFly
      u yes, well yes. All around are fools, and only at the "Russian Forums" wherever you spit - you will fall into a great strategist

      One trolling strategist under the name FireFly is especially noticeable ..
  10. +2
    13 September 2013 10: 19
    If they take planes with an eye on hostilities in the short term, then the F-15 is what you need - the car is run-in, its strengths and weaknesses are well known. But for the next 30 years this is no longer an option; such a deal looks more like a corruption scheme.
  11. +3
    13 September 2013 10: 22
    firefly you will not prompt where it fulfilled f35 tasks and what if not a secret?
    1. FireFly
      0
      13 September 2013 10: 29
      Shurygin listen:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95DdXTJB9sk
      1. Nukem999
        +4
        13 September 2013 11: 30
        .................
      2. +1
        13 September 2013 16: 48
        Either different countries refuse the F-35, and of course they didn’t listen to Shurygin.
    2. Kipish
      +1
      13 September 2013 12: 49
      How where, in "Golevud"))
  12. FireFly
    +2
    13 September 2013 10: 32
    Quote: Odyssey
    Well, so far we do not know whether it is fulfilling or not fulfilling. As the saying goes, practice will show.
    But we are too scolded F-35, it causes a smile. By the way there are people who praise him too much. We have an emotional people))

    In military affairs, emotions are harmful, they lead to huge and unjustified losses. soldier
  13. +2
    13 September 2013 10: 32
    Talk about F-15, not 35. That's just the F-35 they will buy. But obviously they will not buy ours.
    They will buy a modern NATO aircraft. But there is no modern F-35 yet.
  14. allekkss
    +6
    13 September 2013 10: 33
    Some strange arguments about the Korean generals. The F-15E is a heavy strike fighter, the F-35 is a kind of light station wagon fighter. At the same time, according to the contract, it turns out that one Strike Eagle will cost 125 million dollars, the F-35 will cost twice as much. Will the F-15 be able to perform strike functions for the next 30 years - it will certainly be able to, the Su-24 is still in the armament of Russia, when Russia will still saturate the troops with 5th generation strike aircraft, I think in 30 years, when China will do this, also years in 30. When will North Korea do it - in 60 years? If no one in the region will have 30th generation strike aircraft in the next 5 years, then why does South Korea need "raw" F-35s? I believe that against modern, and even more so those air defense systems that will appear in 10 years, the survival rate of both the F-15 and the F-35 will be approximately the same, especially considering the size of the possible theater. Most likely, the Americans themselves want to push their F-35s into the Korean market.
    1. +2
      13 September 2013 10: 41
      Quote: allekkss
      F-15E - heavy attack fighter, F-35 - a kind of light fighter station wagon

      In general, we are talking about Silent Ilge, not Strike. Strike in their terms, generally the Stone Age)) They are finicky.
      1. allekkss
        +1
        13 September 2013 11: 13
        I apologize for the inaccuracy, but for me the same eggs are only in profile, they took some measures to reduce the aircraft's visibility, it is clear that after that it did not become "invisible", perhaps there is no electronics, I do not think that the Americans are trying to sell the Koreans some that's a very stripped-down Eagle. And the Koreans have already had so much to do with the Needles that they could have developed their own electronics and equipment for them for a long time.
        1. +3
          13 September 2013 15: 12
          Quote: allekkss
          I apologize for the inaccuracy, but for me the same eggs are only in profile

          Well, in general, yes. As for the idea of ​​their choice, I think the fact is that
          1) They do not have important relations with the PRC, the traditional dislike of Japan (although both of these are American satellites), plus an unfinished war with the SK. And the PRC and Japan are serious countries.
          2) Consideration of prestige - like this, Japan will have the F-35, but we don’t. They have money.
          Quote: allekkss
          Moreover, under the contract it turns out that one Strike Eagle will cost $ 125 million, the F-35 will cost twice as much.

          Not two. More expensive by 20 million.
          Quote: allekkss
          the armament of Russia is still the Su-24

          According to Soviet plans, the Su-24 was supposed to start changing in the 90s. Now everyone would have written off a long time ago. The fact that we still have the main drummer is the fault of perestroika and all subsequent events.
          Quote: allekkss
          when China does, 30 years from now.

          I think faster.
          Quote: allekkss
          Most likely the Americans themselves want to sell their F-35s to the Korean market.

          And what difference does it make which of their planes will buy? More likely then they should lobby Silent-for it while there are no orders.
          1. allekkss
            +4
            13 September 2013 17: 50
            In order:
            1) South Korea will not fight Japan, just as their elder brother has one. In the event of a serious conflict with China, neither the F-15SE nor the F-35 will help them, nor the United States, this time the Chinese will reach the sea quickly enough.
            2) Pristizh is for politicians, the military, if of course they are normal military men, they should be guided by somewhat different considerations when choosing technology, they don't buy tea for a new iPhone (that's why I'm talking about the "strange" argumentation of the generals, the pilots can be understood, you want something newer). :-)
            3) Prices for F-35 announced by the United States revolve around 108 million dollars, but only in 2019 after the start of large-scale production. And whether it will be large-scale, and if so, whether it will be 2019, and whether the price will remain at the pre-existing level, in general, no one will guarantee anything, but it will definitely not be cheaper. Moreover, Koreans themselves say that for the days of the F-35 tender they were offered significantly less.
            4) It is clear that according to Soviet plans, the Su-24 should have been changed to 90 and it’s understandable why they didn’t change, but South Korea is not richer than Russia, and the potential for modernization of the Needle is still not fully selected, in the end there is a place for a two-month attack plane to deploy in plan for the use of electronics. And it’s not clear how single F-35s will perform shock functions as effectively as double F-15s. The Amirak people here are also simple, firstly, the interests of different corporations do not always intersect, secondly, Needles have already paid for themselves, old planes can be cheaply thrown off to anyone without modernization, and orders for the F-35 need to be purchased, the more, all the better, the plane wasn’t accepted yet, and money is already being paid for it, which is bad, again, the latest manufacturing technologies will force the Allied Union to buy spare parts from the United States, rather than try to repair it with their own forces (try to make some extra composite yourself without knowing from what it consists of and how it works).
            In general, there are reasons. But judging by the fact that interests are lobbied by generals, and not politicians and ministers, this is still more an order from Lockheed Martin than directly from the ruling circles of the United States.
    2. FireFly
      +2
      13 September 2013 10: 44
      And if we take into account that the F15 will also be able to carry a new generation of missiles, hypersonic ... Plus various coatings that reduce radio visibility.
  15. FireFly
    +1
    13 September 2013 10: 36
    Quote: mirag2
    Talk about F-15, not 35. That's just the F-35 they will buy. But obviously they will not buy ours.
    They will buy a modern NATO aircraft. But there is no modern F-35 yet.

    They may buy something, but who will sell them something? laughing
  16. +5
    13 September 2013 10: 44
    Interestingly, the F-15 Silent Eagle (SE) is positioned as a multi-role fighter of the 4 ++ generation, just like our Su-35С ... So, we should not produce them for the army.?. what Some garbage! No. I feel that pensioners have a different interest here ... am
    1. Nukem999
      +4
      13 September 2013 11: 33
      .................
  17. 0
    13 September 2013 10: 56
    On you, God, that we are worthless
  18. +6
    13 September 2013 10: 58
    The generals would understandly want the death star, or better yet two, just in case. In general, retired military men with connections in the west often work as lobbyists for various arms suppliers. It is not difficult to imagine how Lockheed Martin makes small contributions to the accounts of the generals, and now the Douglas MacDonel planes are declared obsolete slag. We are waiting for the return move of the representatives of Douglas.
    I suspect a similar system will appear soon with us, easy money.
  19. USNik
    +4
    13 September 2013 11: 05
    F-35 is convulsing. And the F-15SE is really better than a single-engine iron. Although he has problems:
    the installation of conformal fuel tanks, which can be converted into internal weapon compartments, is aimed at reducing the level of reflected signals in side projections. ... the use of conformal fuel tanks for ammunition will reduce the aircraft's range by 200 nautical miles. ...
    But according to the nomenclature of weapons, the "old man" covers 35 like a bull a sheep:
    The design of the internal compartments allows to place two ammunition in pairs, providing the possibility of a combination of air-to-ground and air-to-air weapon systems, including 2 AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles and two 1000-lb UAB Mk.83 JDAM or 4-lb Mk .500 JDAMS or 82 UAB SDB. Internal bomb racks are designed to hold up to 8 pounds of ammunition.
    ...
  20. -3
    13 September 2013 11: 30
    Quote: FireFly
    The states will slightly lower the price, and all business ... or an additional service will be offered some thread. In general, "Needles" will go to school like children. You have nothing to rejoice at, yours will not be bought anyway.

    I think you respected in this forum have nothing to do. I advise you to learn homovrey languages ​​and go to the homovrop forum.
    1. +2
      13 September 2013 11: 55
      And can you specifically answer something about the comment? There, sobsno, everything is written soundly - the United States will find a way to cram anything - they have a wide offer, for every taste. Well, RK will not buy our fighters - this is also understandable.
      1. +2
        13 September 2013 12: 49
        Quote: Basileus
        And can you specifically answer something about the comment? There, sobsno, everything is written soundly - the United States will find a way to cram anything - they have a wide offer, for every taste. Well, RK will not buy our fighters - this is also understandable.

        To write comments from a country that cannot sell its planes even to its neighbors, this is a bad move! I’m keeping silent that soon Ukraine itself will have a fighter corn fleet because they don’t have enough money for other cars. And in 10-15 years, we will see the second Baltic military parade of inflatable boats.
        Also, the author spoke very unpleasantly about the Russian Federation in other topics.
        Based on the foregoing, I believe that he does not belong here. And the fact that they don’t buy it is far from a fact. Mattresses are losing their positions around the world. And many countries are beginning to think not for their geopolitical interests, but for their benefit. Recall at least the statements of the German Air Force officers when they sent to rest the last squadron of their MIG-29s that they had inherited from the GDR.
        1. +2
          13 September 2013 13: 30
          Hooray-patriotism - this may be good, but not always useful. For example, what kind of fighter does Ukraine do? That's right - no, so what can she sell to her neighbors? And Antonov is in many ways Russian too.

          Same thing in the USA. Hand over - hand over, but Koreans at the moment will still buy from America. And in this particular tender we won’t win.

          So I repeat - there is nothing to tell you specifically on the quote, but I want to run into a person. I think it's better to run into the case, in this case he is right.
          1. FireFly
            +4
            13 September 2013 14: 38
            Quote: Basileus
            So I repeat - there is nothing to tell you specifically on the quote, but I want to run into a person. I think it's better to run into the case, in this case he is right.

            drinks
  21. 0
    13 September 2013 11: 42
    Russia would offer its Dryers, for starters, train a couple of pilots to fly them, spend a couple of demonstrations in Korea, you look and the Koreans would get off American planes ... Dreams.
  22. +2
    13 September 2013 11: 53
    Yes, it makes no difference what the Seoul generals like and what not. These are their sexual difficulties, and let them solve them the way they want. Well, or how it goes ...
    I am much more interested in the problems and aspirations of our Air Force. For me it is more important ...
  23. +1
    13 September 2013 11: 53
    Quote: links
    Russia would offer its Dryers, for starters, train a couple of pilots to fly them, spend a couple of demonstrations in Korea, you look and the Koreans would get off American planes ... Dreams.


    geopolitics nothing personal smile
  24. +1
    13 September 2013 11: 59
    Do what they criticize correctly.

    Libya 2011
    1. +2
      13 September 2013 13: 46
      in my opinion this is Serbia, and secondly if there is a meeting of the su-27 and f-16 f-16 will also be in this role ...
  25. The comment was deleted.
    1. 0
      13 September 2013 12: 56
      Quote: FireFly
      You know, I myself will figure out where and what to do, and without the advice of any "respected".

      Then, being on the Russian site about the military industry, please open your mouth only to the point, and not say what is shining for Russia and what is not. And then I will not tell you where to go and what shines for "fraternal" Ukraine.
      1. FireFly
        0
        13 September 2013 13: 06
        And again, I myself will figure out where to do what. Moreover, my comment was an order of magnitude more adequate than your current hi
        1. +1
          13 September 2013 13: 11
          Quote: FireFly
          And again, I myself will figure out where to do what. Moreover, my comment was an order of magnitude more adequate than your current

          In my opinion: your comments are inadequate and cause only a tight smile, as well as those comments about the correct course of the Independent. I do not see any further discussion as appropriate in the absence of words for discussing the article. Once again, I recommend revising the tone of the statement regarding the Russian Federation in your comments. The topic is closed.
          1. FireFly
            +1
            13 September 2013 13: 20
            Quote: PROXOR
            Your comments are inadequate and cause only a tight smile


            With the majors, mind you, first say "Just kidding", then joke.
            (C) K.Prutkov

            Quote: PROXOR
            The topic is closed.

            With pleasure
  26. FireFly
    -4
    13 September 2013 12: 46
    Quote: links
    Russia would offer its Dryers, for starters, trained a couple of pilots to fly them, held a couple of demonstrations in Korea

    If we take into account that some 50 years ago, South Korea with the help of the USA repelled the aggression of North Korea supported by the USSR, then Russia could not even rock the boat for the South Korean tender laughing
    1. +3
      13 September 2013 13: 00
      Quote: FireFly
      If we take into account that some 50 years ago, South Korea with the help of the USA repelled the aggression of North Korea supported by the USSR, then Russia could not even rock the boat for the South Korean tender

      This means nothing. Times change. The Republic of Viet Nam repelled the threat of the capture of the country by Mattresses with the help of the USSR. but at the moment, when buying new weapons, the Vietnamese Defense Ministry is looking not only at the Russian arms market. Here, the question is rather the benefit and political will of the country's leadership.
      1. FireFly
        -2
        13 September 2013 13: 05
        Vietnam is one thing, and Sevkorey is on the other side.
        Moreover, Russia has been seen in helping the Kimans, who are threatening to demolish South Korea from the face of the earth.
        Russia had no chance to promote its equipment.
        1. +2
          13 September 2013 13: 32
          The USA is also seen in helping Kimam. They feed them. What doesn’t prevent the Kims from arising, and the Republic of Kazakhstan is packaged in the USA.
          1. FireFly
            +3
            13 September 2013 14: 15
            There is a complicated love ...
            When Kim’s grub runs out, they take out a machine gun and start pounding them along the bars of their cage.
            Then good uncles come from South Korea and the USA, throw a couple of bags of rice, and Kim calm down until the next meal laughing
        2. +2
          13 September 2013 14: 39
          Good afternoon.
          Moreover, Russia has been seen in helping the Kimans, who are threatening to demolish South Korea from the face of the earth.
          My friend works in Korea. When I told him about that rascal who in nete goes to the account of the DPRK and the Republic of Kazakhstan, he laughed and said that here (in the Republic of Kazakhstan) all do not care. Because he is my friend, I consider the topic of confrontation between the DPRK and the Republic of Kazakhstan unreasonable for such attention.
          PS but RK bought our T-80Y http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D2-80, BMP-3 http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C1%CC%CF-3 and BTR-80 http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C1%D2%D0-80 without problems.
          1. +1
            13 September 2013 19: 10
            they received them by paying off debts. but did not buy
            1. 0
              14 September 2013 09: 28
              So then it is, but they put it into service, and not to analyze the creation technologies. hi
              1. +1
                14 September 2013 09: 55
                For the analysis of technology would buy three pieces.
  27. +4
    13 September 2013 12: 47
    It doesn’t matter which fighters the enemy will have, the main thing is that we (the fighters) would be better and have more of them.
  28. The comment was deleted.
  29. lucidlook
    +5
    13 September 2013 13: 16
    The Korean generals have strange logic. And with regard to the F-35, does it not seem to them that "the model is not completely ready yet"? wink

    Of course, you can compare the F-15s of the 70s and the F-15SE, but I'm afraid the comparison will not be in favor of the first.

    Here is just a short list:
    1. Stealth (that's why he and Silent):
    "According to the developers, as a result of the modernization, the level of stealth of the fighter in the frontal projection corresponds to any aircraft of the fifth generation in the configuration, approved by the US government for sale abroad... The improvements made, according to Boeing, will not change the aerodynamic characteristics of the F-15SE. "Regarding the aerodynamics of Needle, see the sensational video of landing on one wing.

    2. Conformal fuel tanks can be used as weapon bays (if you don't need to fly too far). The design of the internal compartments allows to place two ammunition in pairs, providing the possibility of combining air-to-ground and air-to-air weapon systems. Internal bomb racks are designed to hold ammunition weighing up to 1000 lbs (~ 500kg). Those. can fit 4lb Mk.500 JDAMS. And that's not counting everything that can still be hung under the wings if desired.

    3. New electronic warfare system - DEWS

    4. The new radar with AFAR - AN / APG-63 (V) 3. And an even newer AN / APG-63 (V) 4 is on the way.

    5. JHMCS Integrated Helmet Targeting System

    6. The price of $ 100 million - at least twice lower than the F-35

    The list goes on, but I think it’s so clear that the car deserves attention. And the fact that it was developed in the 70s ... well, so what? Development was in response to the appearance of the MiG-25 in the USSR, so its frame is still used in the MiG-31 with minimal changes, and the filling inside is almost all new. So what? Who is this confusing?
    1. FireFly
      +3
      13 September 2013 13: 26
      And you don’t have to fly far: the entire peninsula is just some 1000 km.
    2. +1
      13 September 2013 14: 36
      Regarding the aerodynamics of the Needle - watch the sensational video landing on one wing. Did you mean this --http: //www.youtube.com/watch? V = dMlbLSzD9x0 & feature = player_detailpage, or did I miss something?
      1. lucidlook
        +4
        13 September 2013 14: 57
        Here is the video "Pilot lands F-15 with only one wing"
    3. 0
      14 September 2013 10: 30
      . Price $ 100 million - at least half the price of the F-35

      The price is a quarter to a third lower approximately.
  30. +3
    13 September 2013 13: 20
    Quote: FireFly
    You know, I myself will figure out where and what to do, and without the advice of any "respected".

    You pchitaesh - everything does not suit you. And in general, "firefly" you have already lit up on the site for some reason under different flags laughing
  31. Nikolay_1995
    0
    13 September 2013 13: 26
    It is not surprising that they were criticized ... they are already 20-30 years old
  32. FireFly
    0
    13 September 2013 13: 27
    Quote: Andrew Peter
    You pchitaesh - everything does not suit you. In general, you have already appeared on the site for some reason under different flags laughing

    Cool, I did not pay attention smile
  33. +3
    13 September 2013 14: 03
    Quote: Andrey Yurievich
    yeah ... even in "hi-tech" Japan, there are still FANTOMS to intercept our STRATEGIES flying out.


    For 50 year old strategists, phantoms are just the same age, they remember youth smile
  34. The comment was deleted.
  35. Phase
    +4
    13 September 2013 14: 48
    Quote: FireFly
    Vietnam is one thing, and Sevkorey is on the other side.
    Moreover, Russia has been seen in helping the Kimans, who are threatening to demolish South Korea from the face of the earth.
    Russia had no chance to promote its equipment.

    My friend, South Korea has been purchasing Russian weapons (BMP-3) for a long time, and is also developing jointly with Russia air defense systems (Cheolmae-2 based on the neutered version of Vityaz). So who is there when he supported what kind of aggression - everyone has long been a bolt).
    1. +3
      13 September 2013 17: 21
      BMP-3 and T-80 they put on account of debt once in the 90s. But rocket technology is actually slowly buying.
      1. FireFly
        -1
        13 September 2013 17: 50
        It turns out that not everything Khrushchev was bad ...
  36. Vityaz68
    -10
    13 September 2013 15: 26
    ONLY WE ARE RUSSIAN WEAPONS TO MAKE!
  37. Sarmat1972
    +3
    13 September 2013 16: 05
    No, everything is much simpler. Koreans need to bring down the price or get extra. services. They are well aware that the F-15s are good planes and they are quite happy with them. The Americans, on the other hand, know that the Republic of Kazakhstan has grandmothers and they (theoretically) can consider purchasing the F-35, and they need to sell these F-15s as soon as possible. To the leaders of the Republic of Kazakhstan how to argue for a discount or additional bonuses - they turned to "their well-deserved pros" so that they would raise a storm. "Look who benefits"!
    1. +1
      13 September 2013 17: 30
      There are not some "Americans", but different firms, each of which has its own pricing policy. Initially, there were 3 applicants - F-35, F-15 and Typhoon. The F-35 did not fit on the budget and was criticized and forgotten. Then they criticized "Typhoon", only "Eagle" remained. But the Koreans do not want them from the very beginning and, yes, I agree, they demand a discount from Lockheed.
      1. FireFly
        +1
        13 September 2013 18: 12
        Well, they will come to a consensus laughing
  38. 0
    13 September 2013 19: 14
    With all due respect to the modernized F-15 - 30 years MORE it will be hard in the ranks, the young will get around.
    I think the letter of the generals is a patriotic step, but not without the influence of business plans.
    1. FireFly
      0
      13 September 2013 21: 16
      Quote: Des10
      With all due respect to the modernized F-15 - 30 YEARS STILL in the ranks will be hard, the young will get around.

      Young, apparently, will already be unmanned smile
  39. Vtel
    +2
    13 September 2013 19: 18
    How funny are these South Korean generals - if they have a choice, then the Americans will give from a spoon, then they will take it for the night.

    "Two Jews eat fish. One puts himself a larger piece, and a friend a smaller one. He says:
    - Aren `t you ashamed! If I were you, I would put you a bigger piece, and myself a smaller one!
    - Try, understand you after that! Here it is, your smaller piece! "
    1. 0
      13 September 2013 20: 31
      They have at least a choice between the F-15SE now and the F-35 afterwards.
  40. +1
    13 September 2013 19: 41
    Maybe "outdated", but who has better? (Except, perhaps, Russia).
  41. +1
    13 September 2013 20: 57
    When the McDonnell-Douglas company won the competition, a spontaneous booze started at Sukhoi's company in one of the departments (they already had information about a komandovo style in the instant-25 style, obviously losing) in the midst of which one of the participants shouted: we went to a restaurant and all at once picked up and then the call, Oleg Samoilovich picks up the pipe and hears the hoarse voice of the deputy according to the regime: Oleg, which restaurant, drink here, everything you need to bring
    1. 0
      13 September 2013 21: 08
      Well, what were you happy about in this bike, especially the "dry" ones? Probably the best fourth-generation fighter in the Western world turned out. We had to stomp to such a result for 10 years, when the more or less advanced Su-27 went to the troops. And done on the second try.
      1. +2
        13 September 2013 21: 20
        yes with the second, it’s true, but sometimes it’s better to skip ahead, the tag turned out worse, we rejoiced in victory, we rejoiced that we fucked up, we rejoiced that there are no cooler designers in this world. Our military is still not able to fully master the modifications of this aircraft, this is the problem, the situation has not changed since when I handed over the Su-27 on the ground (I was 25 years old), as I now see the face of the USSR hero, who the child can’t understand where he is aiming, I instructed, this is a problem, especially today
        1. 0
          13 September 2013 21: 29
          I'm talking about the P-42 ... Rejoicing that the enemy is making a good plane is at least strange. And skipping forward has another name - lag. And then again it is necessary to catch up, while the enemy moves further.
          1. +1
            13 September 2013 21: 42
            the enemy makes a bad plane, in this case it’s not behind, it’s a tsuzwang, but I'm bored with you, I'm sorry
            1. +1
              13 September 2013 22: 13
              Well, the F-15 turned out to be an excellent 4th-generation aircraft, so that they would not drink there for joy at the Sukhoi Design Bureau. ) Moreover, he fought well, was exploited and still will be.
              1. 0
                13 September 2013 22: 34
                ours is much better, and everyone knows it, empty words, olichny from others, but with what? tell me
                1. 0
                  13 September 2013 22: 58
                  A lot better lack of AFAR? Lack of stealth technology? Etc,
                  1. +1
                    13 September 2013 23: 15
                    fpyatnashki ve it is, you are right
  42. 0
    13 September 2013 21: 20
    Quote: Vadivak
    Quote: Odyssey
    Dear Oleg Kaptsov will be pleased. He is a big fan of modern


    Me too, if the thing you need is why throw it away? For example, I’m just bleeding from the balalaika, he’s been in the ranks for 50 years and is relevant

    We have every model of military equipment such - Kalash.
    Take at least the T-55, or Mi-8, Mi-24, Su-24 ... A rare high-speed counter is unsuccessful ...
  43. Starksa
    +1
    13 September 2013 21: 34
    Why don't SK consider buying fighters in Russia, but apparently the owner in the person of us is above all
    1. +1
      13 September 2013 21: 46
      South Korea is an occupied state. there are bases of the SGA. when our bases were in the GDR, their leadership had to coordinate with us more or less serious decisions and actions. and of course the GDR followed our policy.

      So is South Korea with the SGA
      1. 0
        13 September 2013 22: 15
        South Korea does not want this "occupation" to end. Each time they ask the Americans to throw in more and newer things when they try to cut staff and bases. There is simply an incentive for this in the North.
        1. 0
          13 September 2013 22: 25
          just when the country's leadership is fully controlled, it will only say what the controller needs.
          1. 0
            13 September 2013 22: 59
            South Korea is not a puppet. This is a completely independent state, if you do not bump into conspiracy theories and conspiracies.
            1. Arabist
              0
              13 September 2013 23: 02
              So independent that on its territory the Amer’s troops?
              1. 0
                13 September 2013 23: 20
                Which they themselves persuade to stay. For then themselves butting with the northerners no joy.
            2. 0
              13 September 2013 23: 07
              yeah, in conspiracy theology you can blame anything you like that you don't like.

              GDR was also a completely independent state?
              1. 0
                13 September 2013 23: 21
                Is it NATO drove troops into the block? Or did states leave it on their own?
  44. Peaceful military
    0
    14 September 2013 06: 12
    There is a proverb about the crane in the sky and tits in the hand. Do not like the F-15s that are, dream of an F-35 that isn't there, or better yet, make your own. tongue
  45. +1
    14 September 2013 06: 39
    Probably expensive pleasure, the creation of a military aircraft.
  46. KononAV
    +1
    15 September 2013 09: 01
    They are wrong. Norm with normal airplane.
  47. Alex666
    +1
    26 September 2013 16: 59
    Just a great airplane with a great and glorious history! And who writes here that the plane is old and praises the SU 30, I don’t understand at all. SU30 was created on the basis of SU27, planets have not changed for 30 years !!! What new aircraft are you talking about? So little of this, electronics lags an order of magnitude behind foreign counterparts.