Military Review

Oryol Gambit

46

The biggest battle of the Kursk battle is not Prokhorovka, but Soborovka, they say in the Oryol region. Why were the Oryol battles on the Kursk Bulge forgotten?


- So write down: we have all история rigged with a political accent and mythologized. And in the history of the Great Patriotic War we will have to rewrite a lot more!

From the very first seconds, Yegor Egorovich Shchekotihin, Doctor of Historical Sciences, makes it clear: if you want vague wording and soft expressions, this is not for him. Yegor Egorovich’s judgments are sharp, like his features and the manner of rapidly moving from place to place, suddenly raising his index finger to the sky.

Shchekotihin is of the same age as the event for which we arrived in the Oryol Region: he was born in May 1943 of the year, and on July 5 of the same year the battle of the Kursk Bulge began. True, it looks like Yegor Egorovich is about fifteen years younger, and a teenager would not envy his unbearable energy. Shchekotihin is the author of 22 monographs and more 60 publications, despite the fact that he began his scientific work at the end of 1990's. Prior to that, he worked in schools in the line of educational work, took students to patriotic exploratory campaigns.

- And you, in fact, under what date will you make an article about our region? Under 23 August, the liberation of Kharkov? Very logical, - Yegor Egorovich sneers.

We are offended: August 23, 1943 is the official date for the end of the Battle of Kursk, but ask a passerby on the street, what does he know about this battle? Will remember Tanks under Prokhorovka. Something about Kursk, since the Battle of Kursk. Particularly advanced will be called Belgorod and Oryol, the first salute. The liberation of Kharkov for modern Russians already behind the scenes is another country. The existence of the northern face and the southern face of the battle, where events unfolded according to different scenarios, is known only to specialists and people who are passionate about military history.

Interest in history is always enlivened under the anniversaries, we explain Shchekotihin, so we want, they say, to coincide with a long date about the role of the Oryol region in the Battle of Kursk. An almost forgotten role - even in Wikipedia, the main source of modern knowledge, there is no separate article about the Kursk defensive operation, and little is disgracefully written about the Oryol offensive.

It produces the desired effect. Shchekotihin's eyes light up, and he, in his characteristic manner, to which we have already begun to get used, says:

- The Oryol offensive operation, the operation “Kutuzov”, which was carried out from 12 July to 18 in August 1943, was a series of the bloodiest battles of the war. Her daily losses exceeded Stalingrad. This operation is on a par with the battle for Moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad. There was no Kursk battle at all, and Prokhorovka is a collective myth!


Oryol Region. Fields around the village Knit. In August, 1943, there were bloody battles of the Oryol offensive operation.


Cathedral and Prokhorovka

It is difficult to talk with military historians. With enthusiastic military historians who, among other things, are engaged in local history, is almost impossible. We gallop along the Orlov war memorials, opened on the initiative of Shchekotikhin, among which is the monument to the tank guard in the village of the First Warrior and the “Knit” memorial. All this time, Yegor Egorovich brings down data streams at us: transfer of armies, divisions, generals, tactical maneuvers ... An hour later my brain refuses to absorb information, but one thing is clear: Shchekotihin is outraged. The dirt spot on the asphalt formed next to the puddle helps to clarify the situation.

“This is what the Kursk Arc is,” Shchekotihin draws a semicircle around the conditional Kursk, which looks to the west. “And here is the Oryol Arc,” now his finger through the mud describes the line around an imaginary Eagle, which looks east. - What is this arc together! This is the letter S. So the name “Battle of the Kursk Bulge” is even incorrectly purely geometrically, - Yegor Egorovich takes a breath for a second. - Now we go on dates. It is believed that this battle lasted from July 5 to August 23 1943 of the year. But after all, all the battles for Kursk ended on July 12, when the Germans on the southern front, on the Belgorod side, did not go further than Prokhorovka. And then ours, the Oryol offensive operation, when the Oryol region was freed from the Germans. This operation became the starting point for our attack on the Germans on all fronts. It was not just that the first salute during the war was given in honor of the release of the Eagle, and it was not just that Roosevelt congratulated Stalin on this great victory. For all the time of the war, Roosevelt sent only two such telegrams of congratulations to Stalin - after Stalingrad and after Eagle!

The more Yegor Egorovich talks about the undeservedly forgotten Oryol operation, the louder his voice becomes. It boils, and when it mentions Prokhorovka it explodes altogether:

- "Prokhorovka - the largest tank battle in the history of the war." What nonsense! I do not argue, it was large-scale, it was terribly bloody, but it was neither the largest nor the most successful. If on both faces - Prokhorovka is southern - the same thing happened, the Germans would have taken Kursk. But on the north face they were also stopped on July 10 by the troops of the Central Front under the command of Rokossovsky. They say this, yes, but the neighborhood of the village of Ponyri is called the main battlefield. But the main battles — indeed, the largest tank battles in the history of the war — took place side by side, on the Soborovsky field. I opened the Soborovskoye field, this is it present, but the three presidents did not arrive there and the memorial is not there yet, ”Yegor Egorovich says with an insult in his voice.


Army General KK Rokossovsky examines the German heavy tank Pz.Kpfw. VI "Tiger", shot down by the gunners of the 307 division during the Kursk defensive operation (under drones) in July 1943


In the end, there will be no doubt that the memorial: with the active participation of Schekotiikhin in the Oryol region, at least a dozen monuments to fallen soldiers were erected. The complex on Soborovsky field is going to open 9 of May 2015 of the year, to the 70 anniversary of the Victory in the Great Patriotic War, a nationwide fundraising has already been announced.

However, outside the Oryol region, the term "Soborovsky field" no one knows, and in military literature it is not used. And if this is the case, then the words of Shchekotikhin seem to be a fantasy of an excessively enthusiastic local enthusiast. In fact, everything is much more serious, but in order to understand the situation, drawing a finger on the pavement is no longer necessary. We'll have to make a small geographical and historical retreat.

It is believed that the name Soborovsky Field was born in 1988, when a memorial sign 33 to the Heroes of the Soviet Union was awarded to the Heroes of the Soviet Union near the village Soborovka, Trosnyansky District, Oryol Region, for participating in the 5-10 battles of July 1943. Soborovka stands in the center of a huge field the size of 10 on 10 km, along the edges of which are scattered villages Tagino, Gnilets, Igishevo, Teploe, Olkhovatka, Kashara and Ponyri-2. And these names are already well known to military historians: despite the seemingly aggressive stance of Shchekotiikhin, none of the specialists will argue with him - it has long been known that the crucial battles of the Kursk battle took place here, on the northern face, "near the Ponyri", and from this July 12 began the victorious offensive of the Red Army, which ended with the liberation of the Eagle.

The problem suddenly turned out to be different: just look at the location of settlements on the map. Ponyri, like the well-known historians Olkhovatka with the key height 274, and Igishevo are all located in the Kursk region, and the Kurds do not want to share this part of their military glory with anyone. Another important detail: in July 1944, the Ponyrovsky and Trosnyansky districts were transferred from the Kursk region to the Oryol region, but in October of the same year the Ponyrovsky district was returned to the Kursk region. So Cathedral Field turned out to be on the border of the Oryol and Kursk regions. At that time, no one could have imagined that, due to administrative division, one part of the battle would be glorified, and the other part would be forgotten.

To restore justice

It is impossible to restore justice in respect of fights in a nameless field. I had to give this field a name, Soborovsky - in the central village. The meaning of the correct name should not be underestimated - who now remembers, for example, that before the 1968 of Prokhorovka, the village did not exist? In 1943, Prokhorovka was only a railway station near the village of Aleksandrovskoye. It was this village that was completely destroyed during the fighting. In the 1968 year, when the whole world already knew about the great tank battle, Aleksandrovskoe was renamed Prokhorovka, although technically the station was only part of the village.

Inevitably, the question arises, why did Prokhorovka become a legend, but very little is known about the decisive battles in the northern face and in general about the defensive stage of the battle from 5 to 11 in July? We begin to torment Shchekotikhin with the eternal question “Who benefits from this?”.

“It was beneficial to Khrushchev,” Egor Egorovich reluctantly replies. - He comes from the village of Kalinovka, Kursk province. As we know, he had many oddities, and another one: to exalt his little homeland. At the expense of others, first of all, the Oryol Region, contrary to expectations, Shchekotikhin says not aggressively, but rather sadly.

- The second person to whom this juggling of facts was beneficial was Lieutenant General Rotmistrov, whose 5-I Guards Tank Army was ground at Prokhorovka. He thought that Stalin would shoot him for it, but they stood up for Rotmistrov, and then in his memoirs he would call Prokhorovka "the largest tank battle" - only to cover up his failure in this way. But the really brilliant and grand battles that were going on on the Soborovsky field under the command of Rokossovsky preferred to hush up so that against their background Prokhorovka did not look like such a failure, Egor Egorovich explained gloomily the essence of the conspiracy against Orlovschina.

Shchekotihin's words only seem to be a “bomb” and a sensational statement in the spirit of crazy conspiracy theories. For modern historians this is not news. Not biased by any of the rival areas, Moscow military historian Yuri Blinov confirms:

- At the front level, daily falsification of reports was encouraged. All in order to justify his losses to Stalin. After all, if Stalin had found out the ratio of our and German losses, someone would have just been shot. However, by the end of the Battle of Kursk, Headquarters had this question, including to Comrade Rotmistrov: why do we have such big losses? And what did the fellow Rotmistrov do? He said something like the following: “I’m not guilty here, it’s our industrialists who are bad, it’s better to bring them to justice, since our tanks cannot cope with the Tigers.” That is why, they say, they abruptly began to develop the newest T-34-85 tank - already with an additional crew member and with a large caliber of guns, 85 mm.

Soborovsky field, which is now often referred to simply as Soborovka, Yegor Egorovich Shchekotikhin “discovered”, working in the State Military Archive of Germany (Freiburg), in our military archive in Podolsk and in local villages, which he traveled around, collecting eyewitness accounts. Too many in the district claimed that the battle on the field was simply inhuman scales - this was Shchekotikhina and hooked in the first place. He began to unwind the tangle, one after another - and now he became interested in other operations that took place on the Oryol land. Now the process begun by Schekotihin is unstoppable.

- I do not overtighten, I restore historical justice. On the territory of the Oryol region there were seven operations, she survived two years of occupation. Only the military history of the Leningrad Region was more bloody. Only two Orlov operations are known - the one when the Germans attacked and the one when ours drove them out. And five more - forgotten. And the fact that Hitler considered the Eagle to be his most important springboard and wanted to make it the center of the occupied territory of Russia is not being said either. And the fact that the title of Heroes of the Soviet Union in Orlovschine received more soldiers than at Stalingrad, is no longer interesting to anyone. But it was here that victory was forged, and for so many years we have been living in the shadow of the Battle of Kursk, which, like porridge from various cereals, equalized us all ...

And excessive pressure, and quiet bitterness Shchekotihina understandable. He has to struggle not so much with official history - with the availability of documents and a sufficient amount of research, everything can become part of official military historiography. He is confronted by deep-rooted ideas about the heroics of war and the everyday unwillingness of people to “rewrite history,” even in the name of searching for the truth. Why stir up the distant past?

Call names

“Since the authorities have forgotten the names of the heroes, and Khrushchev reinforced how cowardly the Rotmistros justified themselves, which means that we will call these names.”

Unlike Schekotihina, Nikolai Anatolyevich Andreev speaks softly, without revolutionary notes in his voice. Andreev - also a historian, head of the museum at the Oryol Academy of National Economy, by vocation - the head of the search organization "Nameless Soldier." At the same time - a rare case - Andreev the search engine and Shchekotihin-professor actively cooperate and, one can say, are friends.

- I bet, of course, constantly. Yegor Egorovich still very much trusts in documents, including political communications. But over time, he ceases to blindly believe the documents, and we work together fruitfully. I am compiling military certificates for him, he finds in the archives new documents that are not available to us, - Nikolai Anatolevich smiles conciliatoryly.


Eagle. Museum search organization "Nameless Soldier." Nikolay Anatolyevich Andreev, head of search organization


In the museum with the finds made by the search squad of Andreev for many years of work, the book of Egor Egorovich is on the table. In the fields, Andreev writes remarks with a red pen to the doctor of historical sciences. But in the main thing - the key role of the Soborovsky battle and the Oryol offensive operation in 1943 - they converge. And about the contribution of the Oryol region to the overall victory, they both seek to tell. True, by different means and with slightly different goals.

- Our main task is to name names. We are not just a funeral team. And the longer we “dig”, the deeper I immerse myself in this topic, the more terrible it becomes to me: I, as a historian, do not understand what all of our data is based on, including on losses, in the mouth of Andreev the word “scary "Acquires a special meaning. The fact is that Nikolai Anatolyevich has been engaged in the search with 13 years, he started at the museum at the children's tourist station in Orel. Moreover, he fought in the Second Chechen campaign, which, for obvious reasons, he recalls with reluctance.

- There is a modern official directory of losses that we suffered in the Great Patriotic War. Under this directory, the Oryol region lost 520 thousands of civilians. But we, the search engines, can confidently say that 40% should be added to these losses. According to our data, the Oryol region lost 800 thousands of people. If you add on the losses of the army and consider the territory of the then region, which was much larger, you will get about two million, - Andreev lists the numbers that do not allow him to live and work peacefully in peaceful areas. At one time he tried - was a restorer, an artist - but returned to war.

- The most terrible statistics we have comes from the results of specific searches. This is not our invention - the results agree with our colleagues in the Kaluga and Leningrad regions, there are also strong search organizations, - so Andreev anticipates skepticism, which is inevitable with respect to unofficial calculations.

- So, of the five identifiable medallions that we find, two belong to the people who served in the Red Army. One medallion will belong to a man who was retroactively recorded in the Red Army. The fact is that after the war, people from the military registration and enlistment office went to their homes and apartments and additionally rewrote all those who served, replenishing the lists - this was called a household survey. But we will not find two people in any official lists, as if they had never served in the Red Army. They are simply not taken into account anywhere, they do not exist, - Andreev pauses, as if he himself is trying to digest this information.

He knows too much: and that of the mass graves on the territory of the Oryol region 1200, and not 870, as told in the Military-Historical Museum of Orel. And that the lists of those buried in them were formed after the war and anyhow. Therefore, the names on the memorial boards often do not belong to those who lie in the graves under the boards. Many fighters who were “attributed” to these graves lie anywhere in the Orlov region, but not in graves with their names. And it’s hard to say at what point the face of Nikolai Anatolyevich is darker: when he talks about forgotten fights in the Oryol region and soldiers who do not exist for history, or when he recalls a half-meter layer of earth as white as snow: this happens if you bury more 50 people. Over the years, hemoglobin decomposes, the blood dries to white ... There is too much white land in the Orlov region to forget about it.

Zugzwang

Military Historical Museum of the Eagle. The senior researcher at the museum, Alexander Leonidovich Zverev, habitually stands at the main exhibit - the panorama of the Battle of Kursk, preparing to conduct a tour. And it comes to confusion when we make it clear: we are interested in his opinion, personal and as a representative of official science, about the Soborovsky field and the Oryol offensive operation, which eventually turned into an insignificant episode of the large-scale Kursk battle.

- Now there is no censorship. Therefore, they write whatever they want, Alexander Leonidovich immediately became worried. - I, like many other historians in the Oryol region, and in Kursk, too, adhere to the traditional point of view: there was a large-scale battle on the Kursk Bulge, from Orel to Belgorod, Prokhorovka is the largest tank battle of this battle and the war in general. And about Soborovka until the middle of 1990-x in general, no one opened his mouth. But Yegor Egorovich, and he is a famous person, began to write about her, and everyone started talking, - Alexander Leonidovich is justified, as if he was personally accused of some kind of historical substitution.

“I can't deny what Schekotihin says.” But only because I myself did not work in the German archive. And this is his trump card - no one has seen the documents that he found there. But the fact that he doubts Prokhorovka and attributes all merits to Soborovka and subsequent operations in the Oryol region, I consider the statement to be too responsible - Alexander Leonidovich, who has worked in museums for most of his life, suffers such disregard for well-known facts: he is nervous, touchingly corrects collar and trying, not offending anyone, insist on the official version.

- I am not penetrative, I did not achieve high ranks. But what can I say now that Soviet historians have been writing nonsense all the time? Of course, there are inaccuracies and excesses everywhere: for example, our diorama is called “Breakthrough of the German defense near the village of Vyazhi”. And this was only the first day of the operation, what a breakthrough! We have a fight, but a breakthrough, but they prefer not to remember about unsuccessful operations, - as if by chance Alexander Leonidovich confirms the words of Shchekotikhin and Andreev that all Oryol operations (except the last, successful) were silent due to huge losses .


Oryol Military History Museum. Fragment of the diorama "Breakthrough of the German defense near the village of Vyazhi"


- It has always been like this: local historians and historians are trying to set aside their small homeland. That raise the hype. But the problem is something else: we have almost no local historians left, young people do not want to go to science or a museum because of salaries. To whom these theories and new versions now to discuss something, - hopelessly waving his hand Alexander Leonidovich. - You give me these German documents, on the basis of which Yegor Egorovich works, and if everything is correct, I will agree with him. I'm not some kind of conservative! - smiling, Alexander Leonidovich is beating his fist on the wooden fence of the panorama.

When we leave, he clearly sighs with relief. But for a moment the smile disappears from his face, and he says in a patter after us:

- And yet, this is unreal. Do not rewrite us, in the end, the whole story ...
Author:
Originator:
http://strana.ru/journal/23154051
46 comments
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  1. Vladimirets
    Vladimirets 27 August 2013 08: 39 New
    11
    The meat grinder, of course, was terrible, all soldiers who died at that time were worthy of sacred memory. Comrade Shchekotikhin, to be honest, alarming. Nodding to Khrushchev and Rotmistrov, he is now engaged in dragging our fame, more like raising hype about his work than real historical work. I don’t think that Rotmistrov had such a huge influence that during the operation he simply took away another laurels from someone.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 27 August 2013 08: 56 New
      10
      Quote: Schekotikhin
      There was no Kursk battle at all, and Prokhorovka is a collective myth!


      Everything is clear, a small-town patriot within the Oryol region.

      Quote: Vladimirets
      Comrade Shchekotikhin, to be honest, alarming.


      A deputy is some kind of infection, as a person becomes a deputy, so the clinic is complete.
      1. Botanologist
        Botanologist 27 August 2013 09: 48 New
        +7
        Quote: Vadivak
        shtetl patriot within the Oryol region


        Shchekotikhin generally comrade ... peculiar. I do not really trust him and filter all his speeches.
        Although in the Oryol region in the 1986-1988 years there was continuous demining - there were so many shells and mines in the ground that every year people exploded in dozens. The boy himself walked on the outskirts of the city through the trenches in the woods, and found mines from the mortar (for some reason they were called "lionfish"), and hundreds of cartridges. So the meat grinder was really creepy.
        1. avt
          avt 27 August 2013 10: 52 New
          +6
          Quote: Botanologist
          Shchekotikhin generally comrade ... peculiar. I do not really trust him and filter all his speeches.

          The first impression is just that. In the article there is not a single fact other than emotions, there is no mention of even specific units and military units. It could well have argued on the position on the archival material, not the 41st year, there are more or less documents, and strengthened on the spot. In the meantime, some kind of intelligent kitchen display of cookies in the spirit of Gorbachev's revelations. Too serious a topic to drive a blizzard like that. negative Well, if you give the material - please be calm and weighty to back it up with an appropriate evidence base, it’s not a joke - to juggle losses, it’s enough for us to go with the brewers. Weak article, I repeat, a lot of emotions and no links to facts. Who prevented the author of the article from making at least a rough comparison?
          1. psv910
            psv910 27 August 2013 11: 25 New
            +1
            Quote: avt
            Weak article, I repeat, a lot of emotions and no links to facts. Who prevented the author of the article from making at least a rough comparison?

            The article does not set such goals. She says that there is such a problem, and there are people who care about it. As for the facts, they are in the books of Schekotikhin.
            1. avt
              avt 27 August 2013 11: 41 New
              +2
              Quote: psv910
              The article does not set such goals.

              Poorly .
              Quote: psv910
              As for the facts, they are in the books of Schekotikhin.

              Then the article, or rather the author also had a double minus, could well advertise books with brief historical references, unless of course he read them himself, which I doubt very much in the course of the article, and not put pressure on tonsils with emotions and nothing at all. Well, I don’t like it when people plunge their emotions into the dark, not even thoughts.
              1. psv910
                psv910 27 August 2013 11: 49 New
                +3
                Quote: avt
                Then the article, or rather the author also had a double minus, could well advertise

                What do you measure with minuses? Who is cold and hot from this? The author, I do not know whoever he is, raised the problem. He told me that there are people who are not indifferent to her. And you give him a double minus. Go through the search if the topic is interesting, but it really is, I assure you.
                1. avt
                  avt 27 August 2013 12: 38 New
                  +4
                  Quote: psv910
                  What do you measure with minuses?

                  request Because this practice is on the site, by the way, I didn’t set you a minus.
                  Quote: psv910
                  Go through the search if the topic is interesting, but it really is, I assure you.

                  There are a lot of interesting topics in the world and you won’t cover everything, I thought that if someone raises one of them, then at least out of respect for the readers they will manage to give a good announcement, and since the topic is serious, it concerns itself with the historical fact of the tragic part of our history, then , in my opinion, the approach should be appropriate, especially if it concerns work based, according to your statement, on a very specific archival material. For example, I studied Zamulin's work after a brief publication in the journal Around the World, a completely similar article turned out to be competent ,, trailer "books.
          2. Black Colonel
            Black Colonel 27 August 2013 12: 49 New
            +2
            To justify a single article with links will not be enough. There is only one enumeration of units and formations of both the Red Army and the Wehrmacht, which will pull the article. Large-scale research is needed here. And who will allocate state funds so that the history of the same state is convicted of deliberate distortion? Here are loners and fight with windmills.
            1. avt
              avt 27 August 2013 17: 41 New
              -1
              Quote: Black Colonel
              To justify a single article with links will not be enough.

              Yah !? What, is it difficult to at least the total strength, for example, to lead the opposing troops? A couple of archive links break leads to confirm and argue? Here at once, this is what inspires -
              Quote: smile
              they lie, they say you just listen to me, I’ll tell you the truth, instantly losing all confidence ... t
        2. smile
          smile 27 August 2013 14: 13 New
          +4
          Botanologist
          A man who immediately declares that the whole story is falsified, everyone lies, they say you just listen to me, I will tell you the truth, instantly loses all confidence ... especially since he is so intelligible. logically and reasonably, and did not answer the question: Why was this "falsification" necessary !!! On hrren goat button accordion? ....
      2. psv910
        psv910 27 August 2013 11: 27 New
        +4
        Quote: Vadivak
        A deputy is some kind of infection, as a person becomes a deputy, so the clinic is complete.

        Well, do not smear everyone with one myrrh. To assign Schekotikhin to deputies-loafers is at least incorrect, to say the least. Obviously, being a deputy of the Oryol Legislative Assembly, it is easier for him to conduct work. The price of a deputy’s request far exceeds the request of any historian, even the eminent.
      3. Geisenberg
        Geisenberg 28 August 2013 01: 15 New
        -1
        Quote: Vadivak
        Quote: Schekotikhin
        There was no Kursk battle at all, and Prokhorovka is a collective myth!


        Everything is clear, a small-town patriot within the Oryol region.

        Quote: Vladimirets
        Comrade Shchekotikhin, to be honest, alarming.


        A deputy is some kind of infection, as a person becomes a deputy, so the clinic is complete.



        Oh, I thought the same thing. What kind of fashion went the well-established version to shake ?? Well, they called the Kursk arc and the end, but in reality the battle is called the Oryol-Kursk. No, eprst, it wasn’t an arc - and the rune was zig ... there was a plot around ...
    2. Kadet_KRAK
      Kadet_KRAK 27 August 2013 09: 35 New
      +9
      Do not call the battles for the liberation of the Motherland a meat grinder, even if they were bloody and with huge losses. Imagine for a second that our grandfathers, great-grandfathers went to a meat grinder for the liberation of the Motherland. It's just that the term is not the one, it is more suitable for Hollywood scenes.
      History must be restored otherwise it will turn out that WWII amers won.
      "Delusion does not cease to be delusion from the fact that the majority shares it." Leo Tolstoy.
      1. S_mirnov
        S_mirnov 27 August 2013 14: 40 New
        +3
        Quote: Kadet_KRAK
        History must be restored otherwise it will turn out that WWII amers won.

        To know history, it is necessary to use the experience of ancestors, not to repeat their mistakes and use successful solutions. If history is distorted, then its value as the experience of ancestors is leveled, it is impossible to draw the right conclusions from incorrect assumptions.
        I consider one of the best works on the subject of WWII research a book by Yu. Mukhin “Lessons of the Great Patriotic War” I recommend, do not be lazy, read it.
    3. Siberian German
      Siberian German 28 August 2013 03: 48 New
      +1
      but I’ve heard about these battles for the first time - and now I’ll try to look for something
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 28 August 2013 04: 07 New
        +5
        Quote: Siberian German
        I’m hearing about these fights for the first time

        Well, if, even in the "latest edition" of the operation "Citadel", published here in July, these fights take place in "two words", like "... on the 12 of July of the 1943-th troops of the Bryansk Front launched an offensive operation ... and 5 of August freed the Eagle ... "
        Few people thought that from 12 July to 5 August, the forces of Bryansk, and then the Central Fronts, could only squeeze the Oryol group of Germans from positions.
        And from Orel to the front line (both fronts - sorry for taftology), it was from 130 to 180 km. That is, what was the intensity of the fighting, if the Red Army, having a numerical and technical advantage over the bloodless group of the Model, could not conduct an operation on the environment.
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  4. sevtrash
    sevtrash 27 August 2013 09: 09 New
    0
    A slightly different view, tendentious, seems, but it’s good that another - in the end, in the opposition of opinions there will be something closer to the truth.
    As for the photo of Rokossovsky - it seems that there were no Tigers on the northern front, Ferdinand only.
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  7. Andrew 447
    Andrew 447 27 August 2013 09: 38 New
    +8
    What is the difference in the territory of which region the Russian soldier died defending the MOTHERLAND? It is very good that such an enthusiast opens museums and memorials and a big human THANKS to him. However, those who studied the “History of Military Art” in a military educational institution are well aware of the progress of the entire Kutuzov operation.
  8. Valery Neonov
    Valery Neonov 27 August 2013 09: 45 New
    +2
    History of course you need to know, especially the history of your country!
    Quote: Vadivak
    A deputy is some kind of infection, as a person becomes a deputy, so the clinic is complete.

    You probably meant the psychiatric one, I completely agree with that. Sometimes the "small-town" "folk servants" will do such a thing ... oh, mother, do not worry.
  9. Stas57
    Stas57 27 August 2013 10: 10 New
    +3
    Quote: Vadivak
    Quote: Schekotikhin
    There was no Kursk battle at all, and Prokhorovka is a collective myth!


    Everything is clear, a small-town patriot within the Oryol region.


    Yeah, yes, only Zamulin says the same thing, but in general, yes, Schekotikhin is a famous Oryol historian, though this battle is true, IMHO
  10. AlNick
    AlNick 27 August 2013 10: 16 New
    +6
    Hundreds of forgotten, and often simply unknown, battles of the Great Patriotic War. Only the so-called landmark battles are heard.
    It is very difficult to change the generally accepted opinion about the Second World War. How many people have so many opinions.
    If you write the true history of the Second World War - it will be 1418 volumes. One by one on the day of the war, and maybe more ...
    Using modern Internet capabilities, he himself tried to learn more about the history of front-line operations during which my grandfather died. The author is right in that the more you go into the details, the more questions. One well-known on everyone's lips, the other is forgotten. Some military leaders were raised to heaven, others were forgotten. Why and why? .. Some fought and commanded skillfully, others drove people to slaughter ...
    And here is still completely, with which I agree with the author. I found the grave where my grandfather was buried several years ago. There are 340 names on the plaques. The problems begin when you dig further. So in the divisional report it is indicated that in a few days of March 1944, 34 Red Army men died along with him, and only 15 of them are indicated on the memorial plaque.
    I tried to break through the remaining names from the memorial plaques on the Memorial site. It is very difficult to search, using only the last name in the search engine, but if something comes across, then the story with the loss of part of the names in most cases is repeated. I want to finish by next year, but ...
    1. psv910
      psv910 27 August 2013 11: 33 New
      +1
      Quote: AlNick
      If you write the true history of the Second World War - it will be 1418 volumes

      There is a documentary series: "The Second World War - day after day." Presenter - Victor Pravdyuk. At least some attempt in this direction.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 27 August 2013 16: 59 New
        +4
        Quote: psv910
        There is a documentary series: "World War II - Day after Day"

        An attempt to "embrace the immense."
        There are clearly not enough important details, too many unambiguous, controversial conclusions from unreliable, supposedly facts.
        And finally.
        An adult peasant (with nervously twitching limbs) cannot cry a lot on camera.
        You can’t sing Hannah Mannerheim.
        And the justification of those who fought against their own country, against their people - I am not talking about Vlasovites and pseudo-Cossacks.
  11. Roots
    Roots 27 August 2013 10: 17 New
    +4
    This is a serious problem when you sit in the archive, work, "pick out" information bit by bit, analyze, compare, let alone, conduct titanic work (especially with the bureaucratic work of the reading rooms of archives) .... and then they say to you - yes this is nonsense, my friend - terribly insulting ...
  12. erased
    erased 27 August 2013 10: 20 New
    +3
    Tugging the blanket over yourself is what it's called. True - the Prokhorov massacre is a legend. Although there really was a heavy and large-scale battle, there were huge losses. But to consider that this is not garbage. The troops of the four fronts participated successively in repelling the German offensive, and then in defeating the German troops. And it cannot be said that someone tried harder and someone tried less.
    As for the battles near Soborovka - apparently you just need to open this page in more detail, here the author is right.
  13. individual
    individual 27 August 2013 10: 27 New
    -1
    When the veterans of those battles with gray hair at the temples were alive, the newly-minted "true lovers" were silent, and when the generation of winners leaves, revisions of history begin relying on German and other alien archives.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 27 August 2013 10: 32 New
      +7
      Quote: individ
      When the veterans of those battles with gray hair at the temples were alive, the newly-minted "true lovers" were silent, and when the generation of winners leaves, revisions of history begin relying on German and other alien archives.

      the forum superiors are good, because they have their own opinions on everything, they are docks in everything ... and fatter, so that the plus does not miss
      and was Schekotikhin silent?
      This is a very long time and very famous figure in the Oryol region, his 2x volume is generally the only study of this kind.
      The fact that he is driving about the Soborovka does not cancel his contribution to the study of 41-42, but he did a titanic work
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 27 August 2013 16: 53 New
        +5
        Quote: Stas57
        and was Schekotikhin silent?

        Stas, don’t worry ...
        I was on an excursion to Krivtsovo, at the memorial, 40 years ago. And then the losses of the Red Army (from uncomfortable, open positions came) were declared under 1 million soldiers of the Red Army.
        "Spit" on serious researchers of the Great Patriotic and World War II "hamsters", as they say, "for happiness" - raises a false sense of pride. These are the "hamsters" and rewrite history.
        hi
        1. Stas57
          Stas57 28 August 2013 08: 52 New
          +2
          hi
          Look, well, there really was an oops, there were so many people put up with zero result, how many are there officially? The 20 emnip is thousand officially, and 20 is still not scattered across the fields. still collect sailors. And who turned mountains there? Schekotikhin ...

          http://www.geocaching.su/?pn=101&cid=3440

          someone read here? except you?
          Schekotikhin, Egor Yegorovich: Sailors - Pacific in the battle for the Eagle ...
          Egor Shchekotikhin: Sailors - Pacific in the battle for the Eagle
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 28 August 2013 13: 18 New
            +4
            Quote: Stas57
            Egor Shchekotikhin: Sailors - Pacific in the battle for the Eagle

            Hi Stas!
            At the beginning of the winter of 1970, EE Shchekotikhin organized and conducted a ski trip with high school students "In places of military glory of a separate Pacific Fleet brigade." The phenomenon, for that time, is ordinary. But it was a real multi-day trip along the rural roads of the region, through fields and forests. According to the research results of the fallen sailors, a report was compiled and sent to Vladivostok, the headquarters of the Pacific Fleet. Since then, students of the 31 school at the post No. 1 are on guard duty in marine uniforms (unlike others - but this is a different topic)
    2. Rru
      Rru 4 July 2019 09: 47 New
      0
      This argument in the comments reminded me of a story related to the 1941 Eagle. In the 1980s, A.I. Ovchinnikov raised the theme of the battles for the Eagle in October 1941. Until that time, this fact was not in official history. and immediately there were people who accused him of rewriting history. He collected documents in military archives, looked for eyewitnesses. And today, no one disputes this. And if this topic is raised, then to clarify certain points.
  14. Igarr
    Igarr 27 August 2013 11: 12 New
    12
    And on the site there are still people who are contorted by the New Chronology. From Nosovsky-Fomenko.
    Here you live - a new chronology of the Oryol-Kursk arc.
    .
    Search, of course, Shchekotikhina. But a person, indeed, is sick over the edge.
    ..
    On duty, we constantly walk and wander around in the Trosnyanskiy district. So there, in fact, the trenches are still visible to the naked eye. There the terrain is very good - for defense.
    Every spring and autumn, mines pop up, in the opinion of 50-mm. It used to be so easy. Now every time we inform the Ministry of Emergencies.
    .
    But there is also the "Valley of Death" in the Oryol region. Or simply put, the floodplain of the Oka and Zushi, where bloody battles took place from 1941 to 1943. Why - now and do not understand. There is just the edge of the famous Bryansk forests. What it was necessary to lay soldiers there is incomprehensible now.
    The Krivtsovsky Memorial commemorates these events.
    Bolkhovsky district, we also constantly go there. Last year, two overcoats with equipment were found - dilapidated, tattered - but there were no fragments of skeletons. What, why, who - is unknown. Two years ago, right next to the NUP (such a communication device), 5 min opened. Stacked near the NUP, called the Ministry of Emergencies.
    And every year so. And how much time has passed.
    ....
    May the grace of the Lord be with you, the defenders of the Motherland!
  15. psv910
    psv910 27 August 2013 11: 19 New
    +6
    People like Schekotikhin and Andreev are doing a great job, bit by bit restoring the truth. And many thanks to them for their selfless work. Every year we are farther from those events, and it is becoming more and more difficult to get to the bottom of the truth. Honor and praise be to them. And they do not rewrite history at all, but add the missing pages.
  16. Sergey Medvedev
    Sergey Medvedev 27 August 2013 11: 32 New
    -1
    - Now there is no censorship. Therefore, they write whatever they want,

    No one doubts that the heroic struggle was waged in many places, and not all of them even fell into Soviet history textbooks. But the author did not cite any facts! Neither the number of troops and equipment, nor the losses on both sides. I did not indicate what formations and units were at war. He simply crap the battle near Prokhorovka, known to us from Soviet textbooks and ignored by the Soros textbook. From this article carries a swamp. Minus.
    1. psv910
      psv910 27 August 2013 11: 42 New
      +3
      Quote: Sergey Medvedev
      - Now there is no censorship. Therefore, they write whatever they want,

      Neither the number of troops and equipment, nor the losses on both sides. I did not indicate what formations and units were at war. He simply crap the battle near Prokhorovka, known to us from Soviet textbooks and ignored by the Soros textbook. From this article carries a swamp. Minus.

      You at least flip through one book of Schekotikhin! Get the facts for the rest of your life! Less to you.
      http://www.orel-adm.ru/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=3792:biografiya-dokt
      ora-istoricheskih-nauk-eeschekotihina & tmpl = component & print = 1 & Itemid = 87
  17. tverskoi77
    tverskoi77 27 August 2013 12: 07 New
    10
    There is truth in his words.
    We all know the Battle of Stalingrad, but not everyone knows the COMPARISON battle in size for Voronezh. The reason for oblivion, the action on this line, not only Germans but also Romanians, who put everyone near Voronezh. This is their national tragedy. They were not taken prisoner. scum they turned out. And, after the war, Romania has become friendly to us. Voronezh did not even become a Hero City! Forgotten for political purposes.
    The famous fountain "Children's round dance" in Stalingrad, the same typical fountain was in Voronezh but no one took a picture of it, and no one knows.
    In the history of the Battle of Kursk, there are definitely white spots.
    I don’t think that Shchekotikhin is pulling the blanket over himself, his main task is to erase these white spots, and to perpetuate the memory not only to the Heroes of the Prokhorov battle but also to the Heroes who fell on the Saborovsky field.
  18. dmb
    dmb 27 August 2013 12: 38 New
    +2
    What honestly do not like in such articles. It seems that their creators do not restore memory, but are engaged in exposure. Well, they just can't do without it. Even if there were more German tanks at 100 under Soborovka than under Prokhorovka, what does this detract from the feat of ours fighting and dying there? After all, about the same policy on the coverage of the Great Patriotic War is conducted not by the unknown Sokolov, not by night be Pravdyuk mentioned in the comments, who claimed that the most talented warriors were not ours and not Germans, but Bendera and this ..., well, Mark Solonin.
  19. Roots
    Roots 27 August 2013 13: 48 New
    +2
    Quote: dmb
    What honestly do not like in such articles. It seems that their creators do not restore memory, but are engaged in exposure. Well, they just can't do without it.


    Dear DMB, I don’t agree with you - you can say that, but still we get different points of view ... It’s just that everyone knows that in wartime the facts are somehow manipulated and it doesn’t matter who. Here we see a completely different problem - the problem of what to believe
    1. The one that we were told during the Soviet era
    2. How much can you trust the written sources of our, and even more so German ...
    This suggests the conclusion: that the option that the author offers us could also have a place in our history.
    1. dmb
      dmb 27 August 2013 14: 53 New
      +3
      Dear Roots. You apparently did not quite understand me correctly. I am only in favor when the lost episodes of the Great War are being restored. I don’t like it when this actually reduces the feat that was already known before. An example of asceticism in this matter is the activity of the writer S. Smirnov, who began to write the history of Brest and not only him. He did not allow himself to do this.
  20. Vtel
    Vtel 27 August 2013 14: 04 New
    +4
    Yes, some sort of sediment from the article is incomprehensible, and why now and where is it really only the Lord God knows. All Glory is not to Prokhorovka and not to Oryol, but to the fallen and surviving of our soldiers of the Second World War and Eternal memory.
  21. Alekseev
    Alekseev 27 August 2013 15: 16 New
    +3
    Well, comrade Schekotikhin? Patriot, loves his native land, an enthusiast.
    Such people are often slightly "voltanutsya", and taking them for carriers of absolute truth is not correct.
    And to understand the real, not "falsified with a political accent and mythologized" one only needs a desire to study the primary sources, and not the writings of various kinds of pseudo-historians, and love for one’s Motherland.
  22. stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 27 August 2013 16: 23 New
    +8
    As born, and now living in Orel, I report the following.
    1. EE Shchekotikhin - an extraordinary person. A talented (from God) organizer. ALL SCHOOLS in which he led the military-patriotic training, starting from the end of the 60's, always occupied the 1 place in the Zarnitsa competitions, including mine, 31, where I studied. And when I grew up, and myself became a “scorcher”, in 1974, my last 31 school was the best in the field, because EE Shchekotikhin went to work at the 5 school, which was subsequently the best while Zarnitsa was still alive.
    2. From the memories of my mother about August 43.
    Her family lived in the village of Gostevo, Bashkatovsky (now Mtsensky) district, about 10 km from the Oryol-Mtsensk highway. She remembers those days of the first days of August with horror. And after the retreat of the Wehrmacht, in the vicinity of Gostevo, beyond the Shepelevoe field, local residents (including my late aunt Lyudmila, among others) removed the corpses of dead soldiers of both warring parties. There were so many ("... one on one, there was no free space) that the dead Germans were simply" dug "to a depth of 30 cm to prevent an outbreak of the epidemic. The account of the dead in the LOCAL operation went to THOUSANDS.
    3. Question: "Is the monument to the Russian soldiers who died at the Battle of Kulikovo standing in the CORRECT, historical place?"
    hi
  23. Sochi
    Sochi 27 August 2013 16: 30 New
    +3
    Not only these battles are forgotten by official history ...
  24. kush62
    kush62 27 August 2013 17: 29 New
    +3
    Firstly, I want to say: Eternal Glory to all the fallen in the battles for the Motherland !!!
    No matter where our grandfathers and great-grandfathers died.
    Secondly: We do not know everything that happened a few decades ago, but we argue about what happened hundreds of years ago.
  25. NOBODY EXCEPT US
    NOBODY EXCEPT US 27 August 2013 19: 20 New
    +4
    There is such a place in the Novgorod region, Myasnaya Bor is called there to this day lie the remains of more than one army, the guys search engines dig of course, but you yourself understand when everywhere you dig the bones of our soldiers there for a long time, they still don’t willingly talk about these fights , Vlasov was commanded there, a nominee of Stalin, therefore the seal of silence lies, and people fought to the last, without any help, Vlasov fled and everyone was forgotten, you ask any Novgorodian what is Myasnaya Bor, they will tell you ..... maybe you don’t have to run into a person so much that you and I know how history was written and it was not always true and sometimes for various political reasons it was slightly distorted .... My grandfather also lies in a mass grave, although it makes no difference where, the main MEMORY .... . And with her we are a little tough ..
  26. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 27 August 2013 20: 29 New
    -2
    The history of the Great Patriotic War in general and the chronology of the events of the Battle of Kursk in particular are dear to anyone who remembers and is proud of the exploits of fathers and grandfathers, who despise the attempts of Western pseudo-historians to belittle the significance of the Great victories of our soldiers in the Great Battles of that terrible war. The attempts of some (sometimes very respected people) of our homegrown specialists from history to refute known events are not clear to me. Indeed, for this it is necessary to raise a huge number of archival documents, most of which are still not declassified. I believe that such studies should be discussed by historians and not amateurs. And to compare the great battles and try to prove which one is more important than the primitive device. But still the article put a plus.
  27. bistrov.
    bistrov. 27 August 2013 23: 51 New
    +2
    Well, I don’t know, I don’t know. Although in the Oryol region the battles were really powerful. I myself come from these places. Even in early childhood (I was born in 1952) I remember the gun carriages of heavy German guns that stood on a mound, beyond the Malaya Rybnitsa river and were visible from the window of my house. From the wheels that were from the gustmatic, we turned balls for bast shoes, they turned out to be excellent, heavy. Then of course they were dragged and handed over for scrap. And there was no way to count any military goods around. They found everything: from rifles to machine guns and from motorcycles to tanks. Even now, in the vicinity of the villages of Nikolskoye and Filosofovo, you can see the entire German defense system, which went along the high bank of the Malaya Rybnitsa river. There were many huge craters, up to 20-30 meters in diameter and a depth of 10 meters. In the 60 years, when land reclamation works were going on en masse and every meter of arable land began to be counted, they certainly fell asleep. Now I remember only one thing, in a place inconvenient for agriculture. The boys' favorite pastime was to search for weapons and ammunition, especially in the spring, after the flood, when everything got out of the ground. Personally, I had a Nagan revolver, a Mosin Russian rifle, a German Kauz Mauser carbine, MP-38, PPSh-41 submachine guns. The Mosin rifle was suitable for shooting and I made a sawn-off shotgun from it. He adapted himself to make ammunition for her, selected the best cartridges, drilled the forms for them under the hunting capsule “centrifuge”, took gunpowder from German rifle cartridges, which were a large amount around, found even in the preserved paper packaging, still in grease and thus shot. Of course, this could not continue for a long time, it was reported to his father, he found a sawn-off shotgun, dismantled the shutter, scattered it in different directions, and threw a sledgehammer on the trunk, rolled a couple of slaps at me, I still remember its unprintable expressions. I was then 10 years old, I was in 4th grade. Many boys were crippled, the worst case was remembered: when trying to defuse an artillery shell three died at once, and the fourth got a severe shell shock and almost lost his sight. The school, of course, carried out the corresponding work, but who then paid attention to this? Since then, for the rest of my life I have kept love to all weapons.
  28. stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 28 August 2013 03: 21 New
    +3
    A few words for the protocol, finally.
    Laughing at the "small-town" historians may be useful to someone ...
    But.
    How long have we read with rapture the "tales of the unbridled uncle Zhora" - "And they broke like that!" ?
    How long have you talked about the Rzhev-Sychev operation ("Mars") without embellishment?
    Initially, the battles in July-August of 1943 were called the Oryol-Kursk Arc. Over time, the arc became "Kursk". Saved on the name. And in memory.
    Today we are forced to admit that the “from Rotmistrov” bike about the oncoming tank battle near Prokhorovka is the local sequel to the fairy tales “from Uncle Zhora”, in order to hide the monstrous losses (“... we broke the Germans too! ...).
    Let me remind you that both in the "Rzhevsky ledge" and near Oryol, the Wehrmacht’s troops were commanded by Field Marshal Model, nicknamed the "fireman". But the troops of the Bryansk Front, in contrast to the Volkhov and Kalinin Fronts (where the "Marshal of victory" did not achieve goals), fulfilled their task.
    If every region affected by the war had its own Egor Yegorovich Schekotikhin, the history of the Great Patriotic War would be true, and written earlier, and not today, after almost 70 years later.
    hi
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 28 August 2013 09: 09 New
      +1
      Does anyone know about the first Bolkhovskaya?
      winter spring42? how many people put
      about the second attempt at the collapse of the "Oryol balcony"? where has not one tank brigade gone into the centuries?
      many books about Wirbelwind?
      If every region affected by the war had its own Egor Yegorovich Schekotikhin, the history of the Great Patriotic War would be true, and written earlier, and not today, after almost 70 years later.

      exactly.
      he did a great job, and arguing with him is necessary not with likes and minuses, but with documents and facts, then many will win