Military Review

Indo-Europeans in the desert or "Chinese steam rink"

39
The idea to write an article about Indo-Europeans in Central Asia (and about the most ancient stories Xinjiang) has long been in the air, but the decision to write was made relatively recently - after the publication of an article about the "Uygur question."


Even not so much because of the article itself, but because of the contradictory reaction to it of reading and thinking commentators. The fact is that I have been in love with Central and Central Asia for a long time and unconditionally. Paradoxically, it is painful and unpleasant for me, the Russian man, to see how the history of the region is becoming more and more politicized and mythological. Especially, in the part concerning the Indo-European substrate in the seemingly “autochthonous” Turkic population of the region. What is worth only a recent article on the site of the alleged Slavic origin of the Great Wall of China. However, given the enormous geographic scale of the region, its extremely variegated ethno-cultural diversity and the relatively poor knowledge of its ancient history is easy to understand.

In conditions when academic science in Russia suffers shameful spitting and slaps on all sides, and also considering the offensive statements of high-ranking officials “from science” about allegedly conservatism and even dogmatism of academic circles, it becomes clear to me that various pseudo-scientific studies have blossomed long ago and publications on the history of East Turkestan, most of which are given by fierce chauvinism, which provides fertile ground for the territorial claims of neighboring states. It is difficult to understand something else - the complacency of individuals regarding the relationship of the largest states that coexist here. That, they say, no one will ever redraw the boundaries and the current status quo will last very long. That China is a peaceful colonizer and rumors of its appetites are “greatly exaggerated,” and the Uyghur population is hurt by the indigenous people of the region by the imperial authorities. And this is in the context of the threatening "water wars" and the wealth of the natural resources of the XUAR in general and the subsoil of the Takla Makan desert in particular. It is obvious that none of these points of view is true and for this it is worth looking back centuries into the military-political history of the modern Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region of the PRC. For this, the ancient history of Eastern Turkestan and the civilizational role of China in the development of the region will be given in a concise form.

The goal of the article is to draw attention to the history of the region within the framework of academic historical research and, to a first approximation, consider the civilizational role of China in the development of East Turkestan. At the same time, I will try to show that the Uighurs are far from the first people who have been subjected to the influence of China here. The author tries to avoid any ideological coloring of the article and in advance condemns all possible accusations of any bias. The author of the article is a champion of academic historical science and does not recommend it to fans of cheap historical “sensations” to read in the style of V.A. Chudinova, A.T. Fomenko, G.V. Nosovsky, J. Tabova and other foreign followers. The author with deep respect applies to both the history of China and the ancient Turkic population of the country and neighboring countries. The article does not claim to cover all possible aspects of the problem and welcomes the active discussion in the framework of academic science. Followers of alternative directions with respect, please be more restrained and respect the opinions of people who have studied history in universities and academic institutions of the Soviet Union.

So, this story begins in 1900, when the Hungarian scientist and ethnographer Mark Aurel Stein, inspired by the visits of Swedish explorer Sven Hedin to 1886-1934, during his famous journey 1906-1908. in East Turkestan found amazing texts in Indo-European languages ​​and well-preserved mummies of European appearance. It must be said that already at that time the problem gave rise to violent disputes in academic science and fueled public interest in the history of the region.

Subsequently, mummies of a young, tall, fair-haired woman, an 50-year-old man and a small child were discovered in the vicinity of Loulan. The burial site is located in the northwestern part of modern China, on the territory of the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region. The necropolis, tentatively called the Small River Cemetery No. 5 (Small River Cemetery No. 5), is located near the dried riverbed in the Tarim Basin, surrounded by inaccessible mountain ranges - a real time machine that allows you to look into the depths of thousands of years.

Given the harsh, extremely dry, arid climate of the Takla Makan desert, the safety of mummies is simply magnificent. It must be said that the fact of the find was almost immediately politicized. A significant role was played here by Sven Hedin himself, who openly sympathized with Hitler and his policy. Nowadays, the situation quickly changed to the opposite. The Chinese authorities strictly restrict the access of Western researchers to burials, but they themselves are not in a hurry to publish the results of quite a few excavations. I will not go into details, but I note that the very fact that the once-massive substrate of Indo-Europeans stayed in such an "explosive" province as Xinjiang is not necessary for official China.

The last major Chinese excavations were carried out here in 2003 − 2005. The mummies they discovered turned out to be the oldest discovery in the Tarim Basin. Radiocarbon analysis conducted by experts from Peking University showed that the age of the oldest mummies is 3980 years old. When Chinese archaeologists reached the fifth layer of graves, they found about 200 pillars, whose height reached 4 meters. They were covered with black and red drawings and resembled the oars of a giant ship. Under each such pillar were boats turned upside down and covered with oxen skins. Under each boat lay the remains of people on whom even their clothes were preserved.

Indo-Europeans in the desert or "Chinese steam rink"


The language in which these people could speak is still the subject of controversy. But most scholars are inclined to believe that the language belonged to the group of Eastern Iranian languages, the so-called. Tokharian or agneo-Kuchansky. And the people themselves are part of the Indo-European community, known as the “Tochary,” or, more precisely, the “pseudo-tohary,” which may not be part of the historical Chinese Yuzhej.

But in any case, Chinese archaeologists found in the Tarim River basin paleographic inscriptions dated to a later period - 500-900 in the years AD. I draw attention to the well-distinguishable odious solar symbols in the text. As you know, various types of swastikas are already present on the ceramic ornament of the Andronovo archeological culture (Southern Urals of the Bronze Age), belonging to Indo-Iranian tribes, ancestors of historical Aryans, and with whom they identify the finds in the Tarim Basin.



Images of notches from the Banshan, Machanyan and Matsyavan sites. 2.623-2.416 BC. By the way, in 2007, the genetic analysis of the remains of some well-preserved mummies was carried out by Li Jin, a geneticist from Fudan University.

He, among other things, found markers in the DNA of mummies, indicating their origin from East or even, perhaps, from South Asia, and in every possible way focused on this, which is simply paradoxical with the frank Caucasoid appearance of mummies.

To be fair, I will note (and I will express my personal thanks to the scientific principle to the scientist!) That common sense prevailed and recently Chinese researchers, led by Dr. Hui Zhou from Jilin University in Changchun, carried out a repeated genetic analysis of the Tarim mummies.

At the same time, a more plausible conclusion was made that these people had mixed origins: the researchers found European and Siberian genetic markers. All men, whose remains were analyzed, have found Y-chromosomes, which are characteristic of people in Eastern Europe, Central Asia and Siberia, but very rare in China. Mitochondrial DNA, which is transmitted through the female line, also points to Siberia and Europe. Since the found Y-chromosomes and mitochondrial DNAs are of ancient origin, Dr. Zhou concluded that the inhabitants of Europe and Siberia had intermarried, before coming to the Tarim basin about 4000 years ago. In general, it does not contradict the research of prominent Soviet Indo-Europeists Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze, who co-authored with another famous Soviet scientist Vyacheslav Ivanov, wrote a fundamental scientific work - "Idoevropeysky language and Indo-Europeans", which I highly recommend reading for anyone interested in the history of ancient Indo-Europeans.

Thus, with high probability, the findings in the Takla Makan desert should be correlated with the events of 2500 — 2000 BC. At this time, the Balkans spoke Proto-Greek, and in the Andronovo culture in the North Caspian steppes in the Proto-Indo-Iranian. The Bronze Age reached Central Europe along with the culture of bell-shaped cups, probably composed by various centum dialects. And the Tarim mummies, which we are especially interested in, are probably related to the culture of proto-Tocharians.

Immediately I draw the attention of an overly patriotic and simply zealous public, that the Slavs, as an ethnic group, have written descriptions within the framework of Byzantine sources IV (retrospectively) –VI centuries AD. Those. Attempts to attribute to the Slavs (Proto-Slavs) any significant events in Inner / Central Asia are a gross anachronism and lack all scientific basis.

Despite the considerable remoteness of the region from the generally recognized scientific centers and the ambiguous position of official China, in October 2009, the Swiss traveler Jean-Daniel Carrare and the archaeologist Christophe Baumer, also a Swiss, managed to get to Tacla Makan. The results of the expedition were shocking. Many graves are looted, local Uygurs are engaged in the grave digging and openly interfere with the work of the expedition. The ups and downs of this adventure journey, which can easily become the plot for the next Hollywood blockbuster, are colorfully described in the GEO magazine, #162 for September 2011 of the year.

So how could the Indo-Europeans get here? According to one of the hypotheses on the site of the Takla Makan desert, there was once a fertile valley, not inferior to the fertile climate and fertility of Feranskaya. Tugay groves of the Euphrates Poplar along the banks of rivers, lakes and marshes revived in ancient times the landscape of the Tarim Basin.



The Tarim River originates in the west of the Takla Makan desert and flows east. Now it no longer reaches the edge of the Tarim Basin and loses its waters in the sands. Until about 1200 BC. er More large tributaries flowed into the Tarim (including the Keriya River), so the river itself was much deeper and longer. Then the southern tributaries began to shallow and, finally, retreated from the Tarim. Today, Keria ends in the middle of the arid plain, where it forms the inner delta. The drying began most likely due to tectonic shifts that occurred as a result of earthquakes in the seismically active zone in the mountains on the southern border of Takla Makan, where the sources of the main rivers of the region are located.

So, the isolation and fertility of the soil could not fail to attract the ancient peoples here. Let me remind you that according to modern generally accepted views (“Kurgan hypothesis” by prominent Indo-Europeist Maria Gimbutas, 1956, and the more debatable “Armenian hypothesis” TVV.Gamkrelidze and V.V.Ivanova, 1984), the ancestral homeland of Indo-Europeans was the territory of the Northern Black Sea coast, in the area between the Dnieper and the Volga, or the territory of the Armenian Highland, and they themselves were the semi-nomadic population of the steppe regions of the modern eastern regions of Ukraine and southern Russia or the Armenian Highland, which lived in these places in the 5th – 4th millennium BC In addition, there is an even more controversial “Balkan theory”, also considered in the framework of academic science, but the author of the article considers it necessary to refer readers to the original source [Safronov V.A. Indo-European ancestral homeland], so as not to overload it.



Migrations of Indo-Europeans "Kurgan hypothesis". Pink indicates the prospective ancestral homeland (Samara culture, Middle Eastern culture), red — distribution by the middle of the 3rd millennium BC. and orange — to the 1st millennium BC.


Thus, to the I millennium BC The Tarim Basin was probably settled by Indo-European tribes who spoke one of the Tocharian languages.

Where are these Indo-Europeans gone? It is believed that China played a significant role here. Yes, yes, that “peaceful colonizer”. And it is here that the name of the famous Shanyu (ruler) and the founder of the empire Hunn Maodun, better known as Mode, who lived in 234 — 174 BC, pops up. er Maodun led a sophisticated policy to win the territories conquered by the Qin Empire. Having entered into this alliance with the Chinese Han Empire, founded by Gao-Tzu in 202 BC.

Maodun defeated the Tochars and they had to flee. In retrospect, I note that according to one of the versions, the punitive expeditions of the Chinese emperor Xuan against the aggressive nomadic people of Chiung-nu led the entire Great Steppe to the colossal movement, which is reflected in the Assyrian documents dating the appearance of the Scythians in Central Asia during the reign of King Sargon (722 —705 years BC.). By the way, around the same time, the first group of Scythians consolidated in the southern part of Russia. That is why it can be considered that that period was the final stage in the movement of Asian tribes to the west, which formed the ethnocultural image of the Great Steppe until the formation of the Turkic kaganate and the military and religious campaigns of the Caliphate. Echoes of this large-scale “resettlement of peoples” are felt even today in interethnic conflicts by Iranian and Turkic-speaking people of Central Asia.

But back to the turn of our era. After the migration of the border Indo-European tribes, the Han Chinese quickly sounded the alarm: the Hun Empire was monstrously strengthened, and the western flank of the Celestial Empire was extremely naked in the face of hostile Western nomads. The messenger of the emperor with great difficulty found the nomads of the tohar who had fled, but they maliciously refused to return. In the courtyard stood 126 year BC. The remnants of the defeated Indo-Europeans rested in Fergana and fed the horses (not entirely by peaceful means, of course). After that, through the lands of the grace-filled Sogdians and Bactria they struck the north of Indostan. The result of the perfidious policy of the Han Empire was the formation of the grandiose Kushan kingdom (Kit. Guishuang), the most striking period of which was already in 105 — 250 AD.

And here "suddenly" a military aspect emerged (as always in human history). Or rather - horses. The fact is that in ancient times, the territorial expansion was simply impossible without the use of "living machines" - the mounts and mounts. But, after all, bad luck! - The nature has cheated the middle empire here - China did not know normal racers. All that they had was little peaceful konyashki, more similar to English ponies, on which our children now ride with such pleasure. Judge for yourself - here are photos of famous terracotta statues from the tomb of Emperor Qin Shi Huang. All the statues in the burial are made in full size. Just look at these martial Chinese racers. Laughter, and more!



And, behold, the Chinese were in such a state of affairs (it was difficult to fight with nomads on such “horse substitutes”) finally “baked out”. It was necessary to do something and the Chinese decided on another grand adventure - again to go to East Turkestan and then to Fergana. For Fergana horses. Horses that cost more than gold. "Heavenly" horses of Fergana. These are the handsome ones:



As seen in the photo, the famous Fergana horse has a tall stature, a muscular lean article and a long neck with a rather small head. But this is not an invention of Sogdov. This breed is the result of crossing of the Arabian breed horses brought from Central Asia and the Fergana Valley with short, but hardy Mongolian horses. And this breed did not appear in Fergana at all - the first finds of horses of this kind belong to the 6th-4th centuries. BC and located in the Scythian-Sarmatian burials in the Urals and Altai. You understand that in the first century BC, the Urals for the Chinese civilization was akin to the mythical Hyperborea - monstrously far, monstrously cold, monstrous tribes with dog heads and dragon tails, who are waiting to feast on delicious Chinese flesh (joke).

In short, it was decided to go to war precisely in the fertile and relatively close to Fergana.

By order of the ambitious emperor Shihuandi, the renowned Han commander Li Guang-li made two attempts to make his way through East Turkestan to Fergana. The first one (in 104 in 102 BC) ended unsuccessfully - only a third of the soldiers of his army returned to Dunhuang, even before reaching the Fergana Valley. The rest died of hardship, famine and clashes with hostile tribes in the area of ​​Lob Nor.

The Han emperor was furious and ordered to send a second expedition. In 102 BC, around 60, thousands of well-equipped army troops, led by valiant General Li Guang-li, took to the road again. By monstrous deprivations, they managed to reach the capital of Fergana. The Chinese laid siege to the city and took the water from Ershi. As a result, the aristocracy of the city decided to give several thousand Fergana horses, but on the condition that the Han troops did not enter the city and refrain from robbery and violence. China licked but took the herds with him and went back to the Middle Empire.

Inspired by the successful acquisition, the Chinese did not abandon their attempts to seize the lands of Eastern Turkestan, but here they managed to take revenge on the descendants of Yuechzha and at the end of the first to the beginning of the second century AD er - the reign of the famous Kushan king Kanishka I - his army managed to stop the Han expansion in East Turkestan and even further to the west.

The course of history is relentless in the III century AD the Kushans had already been defeated by Sasanian Iran, and their mighty kingdom began to crumble.
In the 5th century, the Kushan statehood was finally destroyed by the “White Huns” - Ephtalites.

According to the most popular version, the Ephtalits were an ancient Turkic people, but the question of their ethnic origin remains open. Some researchers are inclined to believe that the East-Iranian or mixed (Sogda and Tokhara) origin of this people.

In any case, the conquest of the Kushan kingdom by the Huns accelerated the Turkization of the region and formed the image of Inner Asia for many centuries.
Under the combined blows of the Sassanian Iran and the Turkic Kaganate, the Ephtalits were defeated in the general battle in 565 near the city of Karshi. According to the results of the battle, the border between Iran and Kaganat was drawn along the Amu Darya.

China gloatingly exulted and made plans, but not for long, although the liquidation of a large border state gave it a reason to increase its military presence in East Turkestan and Central Asia.

At the same time, at the beginning of the 7th century, the Arab Caliphate, which was gaining power, inflicted a crushing defeat on its main opponents - the Byzantine Empire and the Sassanid Empire - and began its expansion into Central Asia. The moment of the collision of the Middle Empire and the Abbasid Caliphate became a simple matter of time.

The prerequisite for the military clash was that in 749, the Chinese commander Gao Xianzhi stormed Tashkent, executing his Turkic ruler Mohad.

The caliph's viceroy in Central Asia ordered troops to be sent to repel the invasion, the result of which was a grand battle in the summer of 751 on the Talas River in present-day Kyrgyzstan. Because of the betrayal of the part of the Allies, on the fifth day of the positional battles, the Karluk cavalry forces struck the rear of the imperial army. Under the combined blows from the two sides, the Chinese army wavered and turned into a total escape. Convoy Gao Xianzhi with great difficulty paved the way for the commander among the panic-ridden soldiers and saved his life.

The results of the grand battle have become epochal for the region and their consequences should not be underestimated. The battle put an end to the advance of the borders of the Tang Empire to the west. At the same time, the Chinese commanders managed to inflict quite significant damage to the Arab forces, which stopped their advancement to the east, in Semirechie, on the lands of the Turgesh Kaganate, slightly delaying the fall and final Islamization of King Devashtich after the fall of the fortress on Mount Mug in 722 under blows troops of the Khorasan Emir. However, a few years after the Talas battle, An Lushan's grand uprising began, which sharply undermined the power of Tang China and forced the emperor to withdraw its border garrisons to the east, forgetting about China’s expansion to the west for long 1000 years. Turkization and Islamization of Central Asia and East Turkestan became inevitable, predetermining the history of the region for many centuries.

After that, in fact, the long and tragic Uygur period begins in East Turkestan. According to the modern classification, three Uygur kaganates are distinguished, the second of which was destroyed by the Turkic kaganate in 603, and the third was erased from the face of the earth in about 840 by Kyrgyz from the Yenisei.

The Uygur shards fled to Turfan and Gansu. The civilization role of the Uygurs lies in the fact that they, and not the Han Chinese, began the transition in the region to settled farming.

After the Karakhanid, Karakitay, and long Mongolian period, the Uigurs underwent a strong Jungar influence. After the collapse of the Qing Empire, during which the Uighurs were subjected to mass extermination, the period of national liberation movement began. This period is so large that it does not fall within the scope of this publication. I will say briefly that, starting from the first years of the 20th century, the Uygur uprisings constantly shook the region. This process continues today, albeit on a smaller scale.

However, I note that the ancient defeat of Gao Xianzhi did not cause China’s final rejection of Eastern Turkestan, the logical outcome of which was the final seizure of Eastern Turkestan in the late 40-s of the last century and the formation of Xinjiang-Uygursky Autonomous Region in 1955.

In the middle of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, the myth of the formidable “Russian steam rink” was popular in the West, which by countless hordes of “wild Cossacks” is capable of rolling Europe into a pancake. Historically, Europeans, and later Americans, looked at China with arrogant disregard. Historical retrospectives allow us, the inhabitants of Eurasia, to condescendingly look at modern "Euro-Americans" with their snobbery in matters of geopolitics.

However, the activation of the national movement (not without the help of the West, of course) in East Turkestan suggests that everything will change soon. "Chinese steam rink" is stored coal.
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  1. individual
    individual 13 August 2013 07: 06 New
    +1
    Yes, China cannot be underestimated, not forgetting about the Uighur splinter in the body of an awakening monster.
    1. Sandov
      Sandov 13 August 2013 12: 19 New
      +2
      What is only a recent article on the site about the allegedly Slavic origin of the Great Wall of China.

      Everything can be in the history of Eurasia. It is necessary to study and reveal its secrets.
      1. Iraclius
        13 August 2013 12: 34 New
        +2
        Unfortunately, in that article I did not see the argument. Only personal speculation of the authors.
  2. The comment was deleted.
  3. Hitrovan07
    Hitrovan07 13 August 2013 10: 07 New
    +1
    Taking into account the attitude of the author of the article to "... the works of V.A. Chudinov, A.T. Fomenko, G.V. Nosovsky, J. Tabov and other foreign followers" - it would be great to see links to sources of historical information.
    1. Iraclius
      13 August 2013 11: 04 New
      +3
      I apologize for not having thought of placing cross-references in the article itself. Still, the publication is not in a scientific publication.

      References:

      [1]. L. S. Vasiliev. Ancient China: in 3 vol., 2006.
      [2]. P.P. Vladimirov Special region of China. 1942 — 1945. M.: Publishing House of the Printing News Agency, 1973, 714 p.
      [3]. V.I. Abaev Scythian-Sarmatian dialects. // Basics of Iranian linguistics. Ancient Iranian languages. M., 1979.
      [4]. Tamara T. Rice Scythians. Builders of the steppe pyramids, Centerpolygraph, Vneshtorgpress, 2003
      [5]. Ivanov Vyach. Vs., Gamkrelidze T.V. Indo-European language and Indo-Europeans. Reconstruction and historical-typological analysis of parent language and protoculture. In 2 t. Tb., 1984.
      [6]. Safronov V.A. Indo-European ancestral homelands, Gorky, 1989
      [7]. Maria Gimbutas. Slavs. M .: Centerpolygraph, 2007
      [8]. Xue Zongzheng, Xinjiang: Ethnographic Essay, 2001
      [9]. Chinese documents and materials on the history of East Turkestan, Central Asia and Kazakhstan of the XIV-XIX centuries. (under the editorship of Sadvakasov G.S.).
      [10]. S. G. Klyashtorny. Runic monuments of the Uyghur Kaganate and the history of the Eurasian steppes, publishing house: "Petersburg Oriental Studies" (2010).
      [11]. M.M. Deacons. An Essay on the History of Ancient Iran, Moscow: 1961
      1. Hitrovan07
        Hitrovan07 29 August 2013 16: 18 New
        0
        Thank. It will be interesting to see (of course, if I find it in electronic form, it is hardly possible on paper).
    2. Yoshkin Kot
      Yoshkin Kot 13 August 2013 17: 41 New
      +1
      Yeah, especially the Fomenki such affluent historians laughing
  4. kavkaz8888
    kavkaz8888 13 August 2013 10: 41 New
    +1
    1. ... In 102 BC, about 60 thousand people of well-equipped army, led by the valiant General Lee Guang-li, again set out on the road. Through monstrous hardships, they managed to reach the capital of Ferghana. The Chinese besieged the city and diverted water from Ershi. As a result, the aristocracy of the city decided to give back several thousand Ferghana horses ...

    Drive 60 thousand people for several thousand horses? And what actually did the terracotta horsemen not impress? The author, emphasizing the CORRECTNESS of the official history, probably remembers that according to her (the official), the Genghis Khan Mongols precisely on such "ponies" brought Eurasia to its knees.

    2. ... Images of notches from the sites of Banshan, Machanyan and Matszyavan. 2.623-2.416 years. BC. By the way, in 2007, a genetic analysis of the remains of some well-preserved mummies was performed by Li Jin, a geneticist from Fudan University.
    He, among other things, found markers in the DNA of mummies, indicating their origin from East or even, perhaps, from South Asia, and in every possible way focused on this, which is simply paradoxical with the frank Caucasoid appearance of mummies.
    In fairness, I note (and express my personal gratitude to the scientist for principle!) That common sense prevailed and recently Chinese researchers led by Dr. Hui Zhou from Jilin University in Changchun carried out a repeated genetic analysis of Tarim mummies ...

    Obdurilovo did not pass since besides the Chinese, others had access to the excavations. I had to correct myself. Now all the excavations are under the strictest control of the Chinese.

    3. A significant role here was played by Sven Gedin himself, who openly sympathized with Hitler and his politics ...

    And this "pure aria" was pushed here by a respected author. What a horror! Gwen made his findings in 1906-08? Adolf was not even a corporal at that time.

    My apologies to the Dear Author, but you are a Chinese meager.
    1. Iraclius
      13 August 2013 11: 15 New
      +1
      Chinese horses are very distant to hardy Mongolian horses and did not fully possess their qualities. Their purpose in the Middle is draft power.
      In addition, you forgot a little that, starting from the 4th century BC, the greatest threats to the empire came from nomadic neighbors from the north and west. During the Han Dynasty, the Chinese slowly and reluctantly refused to use military chariots, and switched to horse cavalry to counter these threats.
      The Chinese historian Sang-ji distinguishes between three main periods in the history of China, during which significant changes in stock and qualitative changes in horse breeds occurred.
      The first was during the Han Dynasty, and this was due to the spending of huge sums on the purchase of the best horse breeds from the West.
      For a successful confrontation, the enemy needs to be technologically superior. For this, horses were needed, better than the nomads. Residents of Ferghana and the distant Ural region possessed such horses.

      .
      The total control of the Chinese over the excavations and the mention of political views in the article are given solely to illustrate the politicized history of the region.

      .
      The author tries to stay in the article in a neutral tone. Assumptions about any preference by him for the predominant role of China in the development of the region are erroneous. Sincerely. hi
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 13 August 2013 13: 44 New
      0
      Quote: kavkaz8888
      In 102 BC, about 60 thousand people of a well-equipped army, led by the valiant General Lee Guang-li, set off again. Through monstrous hardships, they managed to reach the capital of Ferghana.

      Well, how can an adult believe in this? The author of these words at school skipped mathematics, anatomy, physics, and other natural sciences. The Chinese, the word "logistics" probably was unknown, they did not need to feed soldiers and horses, dress, shoe, etc.
      1. Iraclius
        13 August 2013 17: 36 New
        0
        Setrac, no, the author was a diligent student. And therefore, knows the reasons why the first campaign of Lee Guang-li ended in failure. But the fault was just the poor organization of logistics. The second attempt was more successful, because on the way the troops were in advance organized warehouses of provisions, up to Lake Lob-Nor. Are they scared of distance? The great silk road from Dunhuang to the north-Kazakhstan steppes will be longer, for example. And about the southern branch, I generally keep quiet.
        And even if in the annals of the previous period it was honestly admitted that such and such an emperor had acquired so many horses in Ferghana, or so many horses had been gifted to such an emperor (for example, under the same seventh emperor of the Han dynasty, Wu-di, huge sums for the purchase of the best horse breeds from the West, which is described in detail in the annals of Hou Hanshu and this could not help bothering), the essence of the problem is clear - the fact of a deficit of the Ferghana race breed was clearly stated. And in this case, Emperor Shihuan simply had to proudly report the fact of acquisition
  5. Nayhas
    Nayhas 13 August 2013 10: 44 New
    +1
    Well, China can not be compared with a steam rink. Yes, there was Tibet, which was really rolled out, but now China is acting cautiously. Silent expansion, economic colonization of Central Asia that somehow they do not notice. There is a debate about the military bases of Russia and the United States, meanwhile, China is establishing the dependence of the region on Chinese money. Already now we can say that China will enter Afghanistan, earlier China did everything to destabilize Afghanistan, arming and preparing the Mujahideen against the USSR, then against the United States, thereby repelling both of them from this region. So China is coming back ...
    1. Iraclius
      13 August 2013 11: 24 New
      0
      You are trying to extrapolate a future geopolitical map using current realities.
      Why is there a conviction that expansion into the former Central Asian republics of the USSR, Afghanistan, and the territories disputed with India will go on peacefully? And is there any fundamental difference between "quiet" and "military" expansion?
      "Steam rink" is a term that the author used only to reflect the growing power of China and the predominance of its geopolitical role in the region, rather than the methods that it uses to do this.
      1. Nayhas
        Nayhas 13 August 2013 17: 47 New
        0
        Quote: Iraclius
        Why is there a conviction that expansion into the former Central Asian republics of the USSR, Afghanistan, and the disputed territories with India will go on peacefully?

        Well, I don’t know about Afghanistan, it won’t be peaceful there, even with 100% support from Pakistan, but the process is already actively going on in the former Central Asian republics and no resistance is expected.
        1. Iraclius
          13 August 2013 17: 54 New
          0
          In Xinjiang, the process of solving the national problem is dumb and primitive to disgrace - the Han people are resettled in those places by millions. But it works. I do not see a reason to further develop the thought. laughing
  6. max702
    max702 13 August 2013 11: 11 New
    +2
    And it seems to me that in relation to China, the world behind the scenes has some very powerful straightforward absolute trump card, otherwise how can one explain how easily the Chinese dragon spread its wings.
  7. Asgard
    Asgard 13 August 2013 11: 20 New
    +2
    The Chinese, though it does not sound paradoxical, are a kind of Slavs. Kitay Gorod is in Moscow and Kiev.
    Everywhere Chinatowns ...
    The inhabitants of the Middle Kingdom themselves call themselves Chaynans, Uighurs, Hainans, etc., etc.
    The "Chinese" were rulers and gods on that earth — these are People with white skin and knowledge about the world around them.
    There was such Lao Dzu, here he was a "Chinese." They built Bulk Pyramids, a wall from the Hainans)), Temple complexes in the mountains where frescoes are accessible for visiting with crumbling plaster in place of persons ....
    since they are Slavic ....
    The cult of Ra in China was with a Slavic accent, they are trying to shut up ...
    But People then know that the Hainans are not people))))
    1. Iraclius
      13 August 2013 12: 49 New
      +2
      In the period under review, in the eastern chronicles, China was often known under the name "Serika", and the Han people under the name "sulfur." The Chinese themselves called their country differently, most often by the name of the reigning dynasties, for example: Shchan, Zhou, Qin, Han, etc. Since ancient times, the name "Zhong-go" ("Middle State", "Middle Empire ”), which has survived to the present. Another Chinese name for the country is “Hua” (“Blooming”) or “Zhong-hua” (“Middle Blooming”); now it is part of the name of the People's Republic of China.
    2. biglow
      biglow 13 August 2013 13: 28 New
      +1
      The name China City has nothing to do with the Chinese.
    3. Yoshkin Kot
      Yoshkin Kot 13 August 2013 17: 42 New
      -1
      ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha idiocy blooms and smells
    4. OLGRIN
      OLGRIN 13 August 2013 18: 28 New
      +1
      Hainan is the name of the inhabitants of Hainan, consisting of several local tribes, more similar to the Vietnamese.
      Han are true Chinese.
  8. xczszs
    xczszs 13 August 2013 12: 18 New
    0
    The other day, I accidentally stumbled upon a site for checking fines in the traffic police, and by the way there you can dispute and pay online. For example, for 2 days I challenged 3 fines for a total of about 17 rubles. try it yourself, here is the link to the service - http://krz.ch/mbaza
  9. Alexandr0id
    Alexandr0id 13 August 2013 12: 23 New
    +2
    not all Indo-Europeans dumped from eastern Turkestan into northern India, a significant part of them remained in the region. these Toharo-Iranians were Turkized and are now part of the Uyghur people, hence the obvious anthropological differences between different groups of Uyghurs (from typical Mongoloids to Caucasians). modern Uigurs are only partially descendants of the Tokuz-Oguzes (Orkhon Uighurs) of the Uigur Khaganate. the main component in the formation of the ethnos was the Mughal (Karluk-Karakhanid with a Mongol impurity). It is precisely in the epoch of Mogolistan and the subsequent Kashgar Khanate that an ethnic look and language close to the modern one is formed.
    1. Iraclius
      13 August 2013 12: 55 New
      0
      Absolutely. yes In this context, we can also recall the controversial history of the Kangyuy state - the thunderstorms of the Greco-Bactrians. It is possible that the remains of the Iranian-speaking inhabitants of East Turkestan were the founders of this socio-political entity.
      About the Uyghurs. Large-scale genetic studies have not been conducted, but, apparently, the Turkic influence there is predominant.
  10. Max_Bauder
    Max_Bauder 13 August 2013 12: 54 New
    0
    Quote: kavkaz8888
    1. ... In 102 BC, about 60 thousand people of well-equipped army, led by the valiant General Lee Guang-li, again set out on the road. Through monstrous hardships, they managed to reach the capital of Ferghana. The Chinese besieged the city and diverted water from Ershi. As a result, the aristocracy of the city decided to give back several thousand Ferghana horses ...

    Drive 60 thousand people for several thousand horses? And what actually did the terracotta horsemen not impress? The author, emphasizing the CORRECTNESS of the official history, probably remembers that according to her (the official), the Genghis Khan Mongols precisely on such "ponies" brought Eurasia to its knees.

    2. ... Images of notches from the sites of Banshan, Machanyan and Matszyavan. 2.623-2.416 years. BC. By the way, in 2007, a genetic analysis of the remains of some well-preserved mummies was performed by Li Jin, a geneticist from Fudan University.
    He, among other things, found markers in the DNA of mummies, indicating their origin from East or even, perhaps, from South Asia, and in every possible way focused on this, which is simply paradoxical with the frank Caucasoid appearance of mummies.
    In fairness, I note (and express my personal gratitude to the scientist for principle!) That common sense prevailed and recently Chinese researchers led by Dr. Hui Zhou from Jilin University in Changchun carried out a repeated genetic analysis of Tarim mummies ...

    Obdurilovo did not pass since besides the Chinese, others had access to the excavations. I had to correct myself. Now all the excavations are under the strictest control of the Chinese.

    3. A significant role here was played by Sven Gedin himself, who openly sympathized with Hitler and his politics ...

    And this "pure aria" was pushed here by a respected author. What a horror! Gwen made his findings in 1906-08? Adolf was not even a corporal at that time.

    My apologies to the Dear Author, but you are a Chinese meager.


    I agree! China has never been an active conqueror.

    all rulers adhered to tactics: we do not touch us. All 4 thousand years.

    and the fact that the neighbors were attacked is, as my history teacher (incidentally, who lived there for a long time and studied their sources carefully), they exterminated only those nations that were violent (such as the Dzungars), and who raided sowing confusion, panic and anxiety on the subjects of the kingdom, who, apart from robbing, did nothing (like the Chechens), more precisely, this was their main income.

    so China is a peaceful aggressor. If he attacks. then quietly and will do it for a long time.

    The steam rink is now the United States, hustling where it wants to give a damn about all diplomatic norms. I recall from the Korean War, Latin America, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
    1. Iraclius
      13 August 2013 13: 06 New
      +3
      Quote: Max_Bauder
      I agree! China has never been an active conqueror.

      Short:

      - Qin empire - the lands of owls are annexed North Vietnam;
      - Han - destroyed the state of Viet;
      - Han - the Korean state of Joseon was destroyed and assimilated;
      - Han - military and predatory campaigns in East Turkestan and Ferghana;
      - Tan - absorption of part of the lands of the Turkic Kaganate;

      Something unlike the peaceful colonization of desert territories. On the contrary, the history of China is a continuous struggle for survival. request
  11. washi
    washi 13 August 2013 14: 39 New
    0
    I have already read many versions about the development of civilizations.
    Chinese, like ours, was written artificially. To exceed the Chinese (getting dough) and the denial of Russian (political benefits).
    Here Bushkov is closer to me with his historical research (even so, a historian by education)
  12. viruskvartirus
    viruskvartirus 13 August 2013 15: 05 New
    0
    Dear you yourself, you brought so much data for spitting out "academic" science that there is nowhere else for "East Iranian languages, the so-called Tochar or Agneo-Kuchan. And the people themselves are part of the Indo-European community, known as" Toharas, "or, more precisely, "Pseudo-Toharas," which may not be part of the historical Chinese yuejia. " “For all the men whose remains were analyzed, specialists found Y chromosomes that are today characteristic of residents of Eastern Europe, Central Asia and Siberia, but are very rare in China. Mitochondrial DNA that is transmitted through the female line also points to Siberia and Europe. " Yes, and pay attention to the swastika in the text you quoted.
  13. Iraclius
    13 August 2013 15: 31 New
    0
    viruskvartirus, and where did you find mutually exclusive paragraphs? Solar symbols are identified with the Andronovo archaeological culture - the ancestors of the historical Aryans of the Vedas and Avesta. Taki Toharas are roughly tribal to the Aryam tribes who spoke East Iranian languages.
    The genetic differences between the remains in the Tarim Depression only indicate that these people are not Han or later Turks. And the area of ​​settlement of Indo-Europeans to 1 thousand BC has reached tremendous size. See "Kurgan hypothesis".
    1. viruskvartirus
      viruskvartirus 13 August 2013 16: 13 New
      0
      Well, they seem to have looked beyond the mound hypothesis now, and interpreting the DNA analysis data, they say that the oldest subclades of R1a were found in the Balkans. "Solar symbols are identified with the Andronovo archaeological culture - the ancestors of the historical Aryans of the Vedas and Avesta." and))) and you still consider yourself to be an "academic" science?
  14. Iraclius
    13 August 2013 17: 06 New
    0
    The article provides a link to the theory of the Balkan ancestral home - nowhere is there a complete cross on it. It is only noted that it is very controversial, replete with white spots and is currently underdeveloped. Genetic material in isolation from other sources is not an absolute marker illustrating the area of ​​distribution of an ethnic group.
    What confuses the identification of Andronovites and ancient Indo-Iranians? The point of view is absolutely academic. The same Maria Gimbutas - one of the authoritative authors of the "Kurgan theory" identifies them. What is the catch?
  15. viruskvartirus
    viruskvartirus 13 August 2013 17: 15 New
    0
    The "Indo-Iranians" of many are warped by such a phrase: these are two different differences. Why are the Aryans Indo-Iranians, you recognize their European appearance and genetic analysis data and stubbornly connect them with India and Iran. But in India, the Aryan haplotypes are common only in the northern part.
    1. Iraclius
      13 August 2013 17: 43 New
      0
      Indo-Iranians? Jarring? Could you state your thoughts more clearly? The discussion of the article does not imply a discussion of the history of the Aryans in India, but if you insist ... In the south, the native (or earlier - it will be more true) Dravidian substrate is strong. This is the difference.
      As for the Iranians and Aryan Indians, yes. They are all descendants of the ancient nomadic herders. The remains of which are found in the graves of the Andronovo archaeological culture in general and Sintashta in particular. Around the first millennium BC
  16. OLGRIN
    OLGRIN 13 August 2013 18: 21 New
    +1
    Your article is in my opinion the correct vision of the issue.
    Just look at the map of the resettlement of the Aryans and everything becomes clear. All other notions are similar to the programs of the REN-TV channel, that is, yellow literature or false knowledge.
  17. Semurg
    Semurg 13 August 2013 19: 28 New
    +1
    Thought fans of Nosovsky and Fomenko will tear the author, but it seems to be generalized?
    1. Iraclius
      13 August 2013 19: 40 New
      +3
      OLGRIN, thank. I tried to do without sensationalism and bias.
      Semurg, himself at a loss. smile
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 13 August 2013 19: 53 New
      0
      Quote: Semurg
      Thought fans of Nosovsky and Fomenko will tear the author, but it seems to be generalized?

      wink There is nothing to tear, and so everything is very shallow.
  18. Setrac
    Setrac 14 August 2013 11: 41 New
    0
    They compare terracotta horses and real horses, the author burns, write more, raises his mood and develops a sense of humor. As the article says, "laughter and nothing more."
    1. Iraclius
      15 August 2013 12: 24 New
      -1
      The terracotta statues from the burial place of Emperor Shihuandi are made in full size. Before you “giggle” at least read the relevant material so as not to disgrace.
      The weight of the horse sculpture is about 200 kg, the weight of the sculpture of warriors is about 140 kg.
      All sculptures are made individually, even facial features vary.
      You can laugh on ...
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 15 August 2013 20: 25 New
        -1
        Quote: Iraclius
        You can laugh on ...

        Whatever? This author suggested laughter, what claims to me?
        I do not believe in the "antiquities" found recently. And how do you know about life size? Did the Archbishop of Sinology tell you? In general, an interesting section of history - Sinology, is studying a country that does not exist.
        Quote: Iraclius
        Shihuandi

        No need to swear.
        Quote: Iraclius
        so as not to disgrace

        Historians are disgraced when they sincerely consider their cheromanism to be a science.
        1. Iraclius
          15 August 2013 21: 24 New
          -1
          Quote: Setrac
          Whatever? This author suggested laughter, what claims to me?
          I do not believe in the "antiquities" found recently. And how do you know about life size? Did the Archbishop of Sinology tell you? In general, an interesting section of history - Sinology, is studying a country that does not exist.

          In what place did the author suggest starting to laugh at the story? Problems with the perception of information?
          I know about life-size, because I saw a lot of programs and video reports from the excavation site. I read reports of scientific conferences and scientific articles on this topic.
          China, a country that does not exist All clear. The dialogue failed.
          Historians are disgraced when they sincerely consider their cheromanism to be a science.

          What is "science" in the understanding of Mr. Setrak? In addition to unfounded and absurd comments, i.e. flood, from you, sir, nothing intelligible to hear failed. Very sorry. Question - why comment on something that you have no idea? Just wanted to troll?
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 15 August 2013 22: 03 New
            -1
            Quote: Iraclius
            In what place did the author suggest starting to laugh at the story?

            Read carefully, buy glasses, if you have vision problems, right above the photo of the terracotta horses.
            Quote: Iraclius
            Is there a China country that is not?

            Well, indicate on the map where this mysterious country is located!
            Quote: Iraclius
            What is "science" in the understanding of Mr. Setrak?

            In science, people prove their theories, in history they BELIEVE authorities, since this is not science, but faith, go pray for the Scaliger icon.
            Quote: Iraclius
            Just wanted to troll?

            The article does not have a serious attitude.
            1. Iraclius
              16 August 2013 07: 19 New
              0
              Quote: Setrac
              In science, people prove their theories, in history they BELIEVE authorities, since this is not science, but faith, go pray for the Scaliger icon.

              You won’t believe it, but nobody in historical science takes anything for granted. Cross-validation of the hypothesis by factual material from independent sources is required.
              You have some kind of perverse idea of ​​historical science. Or confuse religion with science?
              Quote: Setrac
              go pray for the Scaliger icon.

              Oooooh, how's it going. Fomenko miscalculated? He also constantly crowes about Scaliger and Petavius. lol We heard a jingle, but don’t know where it is.
              Quote: Setrac
              The article does not have a serious attitude.

              Write "serious", and then we'll see. And where is China located, and how tall were the horses of Qin Shihuandi, and how he went to Ershi Li Kuan-li. And what, in the end, do the gentlemen of the pseudo-historians Fomenko, Nosovsky and others like them say about the Indo-Europeans in the Tarim Depression.
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 16 August 2013 20: 28 New
                +1
                Quote: Iraclius
                Oooooh, how's it going. Fomenko miscalculated? He also constantly crowes about Scaliger and Petavius.

                Have it all started! You still say that Scaliger and Petavus came up with Fomenko.
                Quote: Iraclius
                And where is China

                So where is China? Indicate on the map. Simple task?
  19. viruskvartirus
    viruskvartirus 14 August 2013 12: 58 New
    0
    Quote: Iraclius
    As for the Iranians and Aryan Indians, yes. They are all descendants of the ancient nomadic herders. The remains of which are found in the graves of the Andronovo archaeological culture in general and Sintashta in particular. Around the first millennium BC

    Evidence dear evidence. As far as I know, this is not genetically confirmed; look at the contiguous haplogroup R1a.
    1. Iraclius
      15 August 2013 12: 29 New
      +1
      What is not confirmed? The distribution of the haplogroup is interpreted beautifully and is connected precisely with the distribution of the Indo-Europeans in the 3-1 millennium BC.
      This haplogroup is present among modern Europeans, and among Iranians, and among Tajiks, and among northern Indians. What does not fit?
      1. viruskvartirus
        viruskvartirus 15 August 2013 15: 13 New
        0
        And the percentage, and “antiquity”, if the Indians of the higher castes have 40%, then the “simple” 20 and the Persians, it is generally negligible. What is this talking about? By the way, the subclades of the haplogroup of the Indians are quite ancient, but the Altai and Balkan are ancient. And I still don’t know if Klesov’s authority for you, but his phrase Indo-Iranians is also annoying too lazy to search, but if you insist I will find it.