Twenty eight. It is more than arithmetic

Recently, the 28 Panfilov theme has become very popular. The reason for this was the attempt by a group of enthusiasts, tired of the mud of the war, made by eminent creators with state money, to create a film about the legendary feat of the junction Dubosekovo.

A good idea - and deserving of a good implementation. But enthusiasts didn’t have time to start collecting money for the filming, as “historical objectivists "raised a muddy wave:" there was no such feat, the reporter invented everything !!! ". Although there is a huge distance between the reporter’s invention and the lack of feat, and one does not follow from the other.

So let's try to look, at least superficially, at who the Panfilov members are, what happened under Dubosekovo.

... A division was formed that received the 316 number in Alma-Ata after the start of the war. Formed it for a month from the Russian and Kazakhs, in the bulk did not even pass the military service. That is, in fact, from recruits who had neither combat experience nor military training.

At the completion of the formation, the division was transferred by rail near Novgorod, to the most intense at that moment North-West direction. But a month later, due to the outbreak of the Germans on Moscow (Operation Typhoon), the 316 Division was transferred to the central area. October 5 began the transfer, and October 12 division was unloaded near Volokolamsk, where she began to prepare its defensive line within the Mozhaisk line of defense. The total length of this boundary, from the Bolychevo state farm to the village of Lvovo, was 41 km.

Here you need to make a small digression. According to the tactical instructions and military views adopted on the 1940 in the Red Army, the rifle division should have received a defensive line in 6-8 km in defense and 10-12 km in the secondary direction in the direction of the main attack of the enemy. The 316 Division, unstretched, of the recruits who did not have the full roster, received a lane in 41 km. And this is in the direction of the main attack. That is, the length of the front of the division in 5 (!) Was more than the normative, and for each kilometer of the front there were fewer soldiers and fire weapons in 5 than was considered necessary to create a sufficiently strong defense.

The lack of guns in the Panfilov division itself (54 guns), on the one hand, was more than offset by the reinforcement units attached to them (another 141 gun). But, on the other hand, this reinforcement was greatly depreciated by the lack of ammunition. That is, in general, the defense, although very well-organized, was very "liquid", having several times less than it should be, the density of troops and fire weapons.

German troops, developing initial success, entered the Mozhaisk line of defense by October 15. In the Volokolamsk area, units of the 5th Army and 46th Motorized Corps were advancing. Against the 316th division were the German 2nd and 11th tank and 35th Infantry Division. All formations were perfectly armed and had great combat experience. The Germans expected to easily knock Panfilov’s off the line.

October 16 The 2 Panzer Division unsuccessfully attacked the left flank of the Panfilov division, the positions of the 1075 regiment. German attacks were repelled. October 17 was hit by a large force. In the course of several attacks, the Germans were able to advance literally a mile away, the defense of the Panfilovites resisted. On October 18, the Germans strengthened the attacking group even more and forced the 1075 regiment to withdraw. But the Germans were stopped by the heroic resistance of the artillery units and managed to reach only Ruza.

Total: in three days of fierce fighting, having a huge numerical and fire superiority and relying on complete air supremacy, the Germans managed to move only a few kilometers. Panfilov Division resisted.

Having failed on the left flank of the division, the Germans attacked the right, on the 1077 regiment, repeating the onslaught and on the left flank. The Germans again managed to advance slightly on both flanks. But again, they failed to overthrow the 316 division. Despite the hardest losses, the acute shortage of ammunition, the repeated superiority of the enemy, the Panfilov members continued to hold the front. Volokolamsk was left by them only at the end of October, when the Germans broke through in other areas and there was a threat of encircling the division.

What happened before Dubosekovo? The Germans, leading a swift (according to plans) attack on Moscow, managed to move less than two dozen kilometers along the Volokolamsk direction in half a month of fighting. And they got up, pulling up reinforcements and rear. 2 November front line stabilized.

Was this a feat?

Yes, it was generally a miracle.

When the thin-line division of recruits who lacked ammunition for a long time stopped at times a superior experienced enemy. And those recruits who, under a terrible onslaught, retreated on one day, firmly held their positions for the next.

... November 16 began the next phase of the German offensive. In this case, the German strike was a counter.

From the conversation between Stalin and Zhukov from November 10: “Shaposhnikov and I believe that we must thwart the enemy’s preparing strike with our preemptive counterstrikes. One counterstrike must be applied to bypass Volokolamsk from the north ... In the area of ​​Volokolamsk, use the right-flank formations of the Rokosovsky army, the tank division and the cavalry, which is located in the region of Klina. "

On November 15, the tank-cavalry group struck north of the positions of the 316 division. The impact of inexperienced and small parts, although it was an initial success, did not develop. November 16 was supposed to hit the 316 Division in support of the upcoming neighbors. And she was preparing to attack. But she was on the edge of the German strike.

At the time of the German strike, the neighbors of the Panfilov division were already in a desperate situation, and the division itself, which was about to attack, was struck at least three times by the superior forces of the enemy. 4-I tank group Wehrmacht rushed to Moscow.

In theory, with such introductory 316-division I should have been swept away immediately. Three Germans fell upon our division. The positions of the 1075 regiment stretched from the exit from Volokolamsk to the junction Dubosekovo. That is, one not fully equipped regiment had a larger front than it was supposed to in the defense of a full-fledged division. On the Novo-Nikolskoye (now Bolshoy Nikolskoye) -Dubosekovo section, that is, on the front in 4 km, the 2-th battalion of the 1075-th regiment defended. Actually, at Dubosekovo-Petelino, the 4 th company of the 2 battalion of the 1075 regiment, the one in which the political instructor, the legendary Klochkov, was, was holding the defense. That is, the company, which included less than a hundred and fifty soldiers, accounted for more than a kilometer of front in an open field.

The 1075 TD struck the positions of the 11 regiment. In this case, the main blow fell on the 2 th battalion. With the indicated density of defense, with such a difference in forces, it is impossible to hold a front with a counter strike. But the Panfilov Division held out. He stayed long, impossible for long hours and the 2 th battalion. The first blow of the Germans fought off. The second blow of the German Panzer Division crushed the battalion. But the units retreated with battles, with terrible losses, but delaying the enemy. A 4-20 man remained in the 25 th company. That is about one out of every six. The Germans from 16 to 20 November, for the 5 days of battles, managed to advance only to Nismeny, that is, to 12 km

It was during these battles that the division was awarded and became an example to follow. 17 November she was awarded the Order of the Red Banner, 18 November awarded the title of the Guard.

Were these battles heroic? Were the feat Panfilov?

Well, what else? What other name can you think of?

Well, now about the "yeah, but they were not 28, the journalist gave other details." Well, in reality, the feat never strictly coincides with newspaper descriptions in hot pursuit. Newspaper descriptions - this is not a report of the commission from headquarters.

Feat Panfilov - was.

Feat individual mouth - was.

And what about a journalist from the front line (from the front, not from the computer screen in a comfortable office! In the midst of a fierce battle, and not between coffee cups!) Did not accurately list the names - which, if not secret, matters in assessing the feat?

One way or another - the figure “28” is forever imprinted in our history.

And historical science is powerless here, not to mention arithmetic and statistics.

The fact that the Spartans in Thermopylae were not exactly 300, that the Phocians remained with them, the fact that the Persian forces of the Greeks exaggerated - did it somehow cancel the feat of the people who died for the freedom of their country and delayed their many times superior enemy?

The feat of the Panfilovs is greater than the feat of the ancient heroes. He is bigger because recruits committed it against the most experienced enemy, and not the recognized best warriors of their time. And these recruits fought from day to day, for months, becoming in a short time veterans, and then a guard.

And we are no longer given to know all the details of this feat, the feat of each company. And when it is not possible to find out all the facts - the legend remains.

But this legend is true, because it speaks of the real feat of real people.

Because no one invented German tanks. And in the capital of our country they were never seen, including because they were met by non-invented Panfilov members.

I personally want a film about Panfilovs to be made. And that it was a film about heroes whose glory is immortal. And no matter how many characters will be said in the film. It is important not to forget - the whole division was heroic. And such a division was not the only one in the Red Army.

And it was these heroes who died for the freedom of our country and our people, saved her.

Comments

[Syrzhn]

Toad's mouths croaking about "feats of fiction" - choke on their own filth.
To the author of the article - Thank you!
Film crew - Good luck!

[Stas57]

Toad mouths are
Alexey Valeryevich Isaev
Antisuvorov. The big lies of the little man. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2004. - 352 sec. - ISBN 5-699-05998-9 [1]
Antisuvorov. Ten myths of the Second World War. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2004. - 416 sec. - ISBN 5-699-07634-4 [2]
From Dubno to Rostov. - M .: AST Publishing House LLC: Transitkniga LLC, 2004. - 710 sec. - ISBN 5-17-022744-2 [3]
1941: Fights in Ukraine. - M .: Publishing house "Strategy KM", 2004. - 80 sec. - ISBN 5-901266-01-3
When the surprise was gone. The history of the Second World War, which we did not know. - M .: Eksmo, Yauza, 2005. - 479 sec. - ISBN 5-699-11949-3 [5]
"Boilers" of the 41. The history of the Second World War, which we did not know. [3] - M .: Eksmo, Yauza, 2005. - 400 sec. - ISBN 5-699-12899-9 [6]
George Zhukov. The last argument of the king. [4] - M .: Eksmo, 2006. - 480 sec. - ISBN 5-699-16564-9 [7]
Isaev A.V. Berlin 45. Battles in the den of the beast. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2007. - 720 sec. - (War and we). - 10 000 copies. - ISBN 978 – 5 – 699 – 20927 – 9
Stalingrad. There is no land beyond the Volga for us. [5] - M.: Yauza, Eksmo, 2008. - 448 sec. - ISBN 978-5-699-26236-6 [8]
Isaev A.V., Drabkin A.V. June 22. Black day calendar. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2008. - 384 sec. - 978-5-699-27211-2
Unknown 1941. Blitzkrieg stopped. - M .: Yauza; Eksmo, 2010. - 480 sec. - ISBN 978-5-699-41198-6
etc.

Ulanov Andrey Andreevich; Shein, Dmitry Vladimirovich.
Order in the tank troops.
The first T-34 and others

Tactical Press Publisher G. Pernavsky
The last series of books by Kolomiyets, Shein, Ulanov, Pasholok, etc.

Dyukov, Alexander Reshideovich
Dyukov A.R. The myth of genocide. Repressions of the Soviet authorities in Estonia (1940 — 1953) / Preface. S. Artyomenko. - M.: Alexey Yakovlev, 2007. - 138 sec. - 700 copies
Djukov A. Deporteerimised Eestis: Kuidas see toimus tegelikult. - Tallinn: Tarbeinfo, 2009. - 206 sec. - 1000 copies
Dyukov A.R. Secondary enemy. OUN, UPA and the solution of the "Jewish question". Monograph / Afterword. Yu. Shevtsova. - M .: Regnum, 2008. - 152 sec. - 2000 copies - ISBN 978-5-91150-028-3 about the book
Dyukov A. R. Secondary Enemy: OUN, UPA and the Solution of the “Jewish Question”. - 2 ed., Rev. and add. - M.: “Historical Memory” Foundation, 2009. - 175 sec. - 1000 copies
Dyukov A. The minor enemy: OUN, UPA and the solution of the "Jewish question" / Transl. from Russian by Marina Smolya; Conclusion by Yuriy Shevtsov. - Riga; Vilnius; Tallinn: Institute of European Studies, 2010 .-- 170 p.
Dyukov A. Who commanded the Soviet partisans. Organized chaos. - M .: "Veche", 2012. - 302 p. - 2000 copies.

and with a dozen well-known and not-so-historians who warn-a frankly invented film can be harmful. Remove 28, remove about the entire division, about sappers, about the Ilyinsky line.


and opposes this, as you said "toad's mouths" - Solonini and Rezun, but here you are with the dropout Yulin.
And now you gave the money and are waiting for the cooler "BK" kin? But to hell with you, if they don't steal, you will be bastards and a penal battalion, because our elite cannot normally shoot, because it is commercially profitable to shoot about 28 with a scandal, and not about the whole division, there is no talent either,
and now minus, you’re my patriotic,

[Lopatov]

Quote: Stas57

a frankly invented film can be harmful. Remove 28, remove about the entire division, about sappers, about the Ilyinsky line.

Entirely and fully support.

[user]

Sorry to interrupt the speech where they brand all sold ..... \
But there is an opinion that this is one of the first massive uses of anti-tank rifles, but the mistake was that the calculations were not covered by infantry (this is me about 28 Panfilov’s), with all the ensuing results. Those. the calculations of anti-tank rifles were simply knocked out, although the Germans also lost a lot of tanks. But ours learn quickly and this experience was also taken into account in the future.

[Gahprom]

Stas, I will copy you if you do not mind

I give a number of opinions
Mr. Pernavsky, book publisher, Tactical Press (those that are the world of tanks)

1. This is a myth, and the story of its creation is known.
2. After his exposure at the end of the 40, they tried to merge him, but in the 60 he surfaced again.
3. The history of this myth is dirty.
4. This, of course, will be used by dirty tricks of all stripes.
5. The creators of the film, however, clung to this myth and want only it.
6. This myth obscures thousands of real stories worthy of adaptation and description.
7. Not a penny for the hack. Down with the new "Soldiers of Freedom".
8. To make a film based on this myth is the same as filming the myths about the bloody SMERSH or angels from penal battles.

http://sirjones.livejournal.com/1770220.html


A Dyukov, historian
Yes, I completely agree.
http://a-dyukov.livejournal.com/1329200.html
Mega-doctor about the film about 28 Panfilovites (look what is going on in my previous post; sirjones have even cooler) surprisingly reminds me of the controversy about "SS Hauptsturmführer Roman Shukhevych". Shukhevych did not have such a title, which is well known to everyone interested. But at the same time, some anti-fascists have even a stake on their heads - they still voice deliberate lies about the Hauptsturmführer over and over again. They want it so much. And Shukhevych's fans are just happy: due to the presence of a deliberate lie, it is possible to present the data on the real crimes of Shukhevych and Co. as "false". Having lied once, who will believe you?

Here is the same trouble with the film. The creators want only myth, only hardcore. And how much dirt will be taken away after that the opponents will bring down the history of the Great Patriotic War, and how much a shock for the student will be to learn that the feat he saw is a lie; which means that there were no feats, all this is propaganda, but there were only penal battalions and detachments - and so, the creators of the film don't give a damn about it.

UPD. The best, in my opinion, commentary: Citizens seem to mistake simple unprincipledness for cool political technology. Heard somewhere about "mythology" and its "construction", but they think that it all comes down to "let's take it, but let's lie". The main quality of an ideal victim of a wiring is not naivety, but just such a simple cunning and confidence that everyone else simply "did not think of a brilliant scheme in one move."
http://a-dyukov.livejournal.com/1329446.html?page=2

Dmitry Shein, historian, author of works on tanks
I will repeat to you, it’s not difficult for me: agitation should not crumble to dust from a collision with the first page of Google. People want to believe in the reality of what they see on the screen. And if the screen reality of the well-known heroic myth does not withstand a collision with real reality, then this is not just a "creative failure", it is a blow to the audience's perception of the world.
That is why they repeat to you and you (filmmakers) - do not touch this particular myth, make a film about the battles at Ilyinsky! - but no, "Cinema must be propaganda propaganda, otherwise it is worthless. I say it like a filmmaker" (c), and then long philosophical reasoning at a broken trough: why do we have a patriotic movie that is not held in high esteem, in a corral, not pays off?
http://a-dyukov.livejournal.com/1329446.html?thread=35077670#t35077670

And Isaev, a historian
In general, I repeat: a film about this episode is wrecking and expanding the circle of people who know about the investigation, the Shutsman and others like him. Zhurny will drag fried masses to the masses for an informational occasion. Do we really need this?
http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/arhprint/2490244

[Nagaibak]

stas57 "toad mouths are
Alexey Valerievich Isaev "
It is not clear to me that Isaev in all the books listed by you subverts the feat of the Panfilovites? And even in the book "1941 battles in the Ukraine" hehe ... In the book "In Berlin 45" he also subverted the feat of Panfilov? Then why did you bring all his books? Although not all. So he's a prolific author hehe ...
I will add one more to your list: Another 1941 From the border to Leningrad / Alexey Isaev.-M.: Yauza: Eksmo, 2011.-416.: Ill .- (The war and us).
True, he does not mention Panfilov’s book in this book, but I’ll add, so what difference does it make to heaps?

[Gahprom]

stas57 "toad mouths are
Alexey Valerievich Isaev "
It is not clear to me that Isaev in all the books listed by you subverts the feat of the Panfilovites? And even in the book "1941 battles in the Ukraine" hehe ... In the book "In Berlin 45" he also subverted the feat of Panfilov? Then why did you bring all his books? Although not all. So he's a prolific author hehe ...
I will add one more to your list: Another 1941 From the border to Leningrad / Alexey Isaev.-M.: Yauza: Eksmo, 2011.-416.: Ill .- (The war and us).
True, he does not mention Panfilov’s book in this book, but I’ll add, so what difference does it make to heaps?

Chukchi is not a reader? (c)

And Isaev, a historian
In general, I repeat: the film about this episode is wrecking and expanding the circle of people who know about the investigation, the Shutsman and others like him. Zhurny will drag fried masses to the masses for an informational occasion. Do we really need this?
http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/arhprint/2490244

[Ulan]

And what not to shoot at all? Let us give up to the solonins, rezuns, brewers and Svanidzam?
And why did you decide that it was Isaev and others, and not Solonin Svanidze and Co., that were included in the "toad jaws" of Syrzhn?
In my opinion, you turned everything inside out. I don’t know why you did it, but in my opinion it turned out a scam.

[Gahprom]

Is Ulan not a reader too?
Take away 28, take off about the whole division, about sappers, about the Ilyinsky line.

And why did you decide that it was Isaev and others, and not Solonin Svanidze and Co., that were included in the "toad jaws" of Syrzhn?
In my opinion, you turned everything inside out. I don’t know why you did it, but in my opinion it turned out a scam.

I remind

Toad's mouths croaking about "feats of fiction" - choke on their own filth.

I am not Stas57, but I will answer:
Each of these historians said -there was no feat 28was a feat of DIVISION, take off about it.
But Solonin and Rizun are waiting for the movie and probably gave the money, then they will have fun and circulations, they are provided for debunking the feat, they are already rubbing their hands in a sweet foreboding

[Rider]

Quote: Gahpro

Each of these historians said there was no feat 28, there was a feat DIVISION, clear about it.

so why did you decide that taking off about 28 would forget about the division?

what kind of "did not read, but I condemn"

[Pimply]

Because they shoot about 28 panfilovtsev.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Because they shoot about 28 panfilovtsev.

can we wait for the movie, or at least the script?

[Pimply]

Here it is already. 28 panzfilovtsev. Ready-made heroics not related to reality. The invention of the journalist. And real heroes are replaced with lubok. It is one thing if it were immediately said that they were filming a myth. Or somehow it was indicated. But no. Here, you see, patriotism and historical truth. We supposedly had 28 Panfilov’s - and Nibet.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

And real heroes are replaced with lubok.

so the film has already been released, and you know FSE
?

Quote: Pimply

We supposedly had 28 Panfilov’s - and Nibet.

in NORMAL countries they do so, they protect the heroic past in every way, and if they do not, they invent it.
Moreover, LEGISLATIVE FORBIDDEN REVISION OF THE PAST.


and only to be found, various gahproms. which give the truth to the uterus.

[Pimply]

It is enough for me to look at what potential authors declare.

Quote: Rider

in NORMAL countries they do so, they protect the heroic past in every way, and if they do not, they invent it.
Moreover, LEGISLATIVE FORBIDDEN REVISION OF THE PAST.

Do you even know the wording of these laws, what exactly does this apply to, and in which countries?

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Do you even know the wording of these laws, what exactly does this apply to, and in which countries?

don't you really know that?

nuuu something about Holocaust denial.
did not remember?

[Pimply]

I know. Do you know the wording of these laws, and understand what they refer to?

In Israel, the Holocaust Denial Act was passed in 1986. The term for “persons who publish written or verbal materials that deny or belittle the crime of acts committed against the Jewish people or against humanity during Nazi rule, in order to protect those who committed these crimes, or to express solidarity with them or sympathy for them ”according to article 2 of this law amounts to 5 years as in Germany. This law established three important enforcement restrictions:
Historical doubt or impartial scientific research, which aims to understand what was happening, albeit from positions different from generally accepted, is not a crime - in the absence of the goal of protecting Nazi criminals or expressing solidarity with them.
Similarly, under article 4 of the law, media representatives covering this issue are protected - if they describe it honestly and impartially without “expressing solidarity or sympathy for those who committed crimes against the Jewish people or against humanity”.
Only the Attorney General has the right to file an indictment under this article.

Is the difference in your approach and legal clear to you?

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

I know. Do you know the wording of these laws, and understand what they refer to?

Well, not in details, of course, but is not the Holocaust Denial a criminal offense?

in my opinion even a couple sat on it.
what is it if not LEGISLATIVE protection of one’s past?

Of course this is not a feat. but since there is not so much reason for pride (I do not say that they are not), and money is not unnecessary.

You see an example on the face.

[Pimply]

Is an. So no one perceives the total of the Second World War and the decisive role of the USSR in victory over Nazi Germany.

But you do not understand the difference - a review of the overall results, and consideration of particular cases. A special case says that there was no feat 28 Panfilovites. There was another feat, on a piece of paper, maybe looking less beautiful, but much more magnificent in its veracity. And you, fiercely fighting for lubok, betray the memory of more than a hundred people who died in battle on November 16 at this site.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

And you, fiercely fighting for lubok, betray the memory of more than a hundred people who died in battle on November 16 at this site.

that's why you decided that if I am over 28, then against 100?
I am opposed to the DISAPPOINTERS OF MYTH.

to take the same rezun, he devoted a whole chapter to wrecking. and in the end said (briefly so) about the same as you.

so it turned out that in my mind I remember HOW NO HEROES WAS, but what was but others remained behind the scenes.

[Pimply]

Exactly. MYTH. Forgetting about real people. You stand for myth in return for truth.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

You stand for myth in return for truth.

I stand for the myth TOGETHER WITH THE TRUTH, but not in the one where, rebuttal, mud-digging, and spitting.

[Pimply]

No. You stand for MYTH. Because the myth has long since closed the truth, and you do not want to see reality. What does not fit into the picture of a myth must be deleted from history.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

No. You stand for MYTH.

what I stand for, I already said.
I will not be repeated.

Quote: Pimply

What does not fit into the picture of a myth must be deleted from history.

and this is your speculation.

[sasha.28blaga]

You already got truth-love, perhaps you need to be crossed out.

[Penachet]

Fucking forum, do you all even think about what you are arguing about? Some deer press on the clave, and think that they are all smarter. I’m not only for the star of David on the flags, here ours are different. What difference does it make to you? What was the feat? 28 people, or a division (in which at that time 28 people may remain)? Feat was tchk. And not you, sick, discuss it! You can ban.

[sasha.28blaga]

Do not screw so much. No one forgets about the heroic feat of the entire Soviet people in the struggle against fascist Germany. But in order to educate patriotism and love for the homeland of youth, all methods are good. And if we consider that a lie in criminal proceedings is perceived as a way of protection, then God himself commanded to make positive oversights. And no one can convince me that the Feat of Panfilov was not. The fact that 28 Red Army men were able to repel three tank attacks of up to 60 tanks, while knocking out 28 tanks and dying, is this not true heroism.

[Ulan]

Not only the denial of the very fact of the Holocaust, but also of its scale. You say that not 6 million but 5 and you can safely dry crackers. And you can fit anything under the wording of the law here.

[Mercenary]

we have already read how your honest Jews covered the South Ossetian war. Well, yes, of course, Israel did not fight in World War II. but just do you got your nationalism proud to yourself read disgusting

[Pimply]

Oh, about the Jews climbed. 8) But I was surprised - what took so long.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Pimply

Oh, about the Jews climbed. 8) But I was surprised - what took so long.

Until the "boobs" and "homosexuals" are not marked!

[sasha.28blaga]

You are in kind Pimpled ... You must have been beaten a lot in childhood. I read your comments sometimes I do not understand why you are being minus. And after this comment of yours, in any case, I will put cons in the future, and now he put it in a row and turned out to be the 13th. You like Baba Yaga are always against or in ambush.

[Konstantm]

My grandfather was in that division. Unfortunately missing.
http://www.obd-memorial.ru/html/info.htm?id=62122486

[cherkas.oe]

Quote: sasha.28blaga

You are in kind Pimpled ... You must have been beaten a lot in childhood. I read your comments sometimes I do not understand why you are being minus.

Do not worry, just Zelik here on the forum at work. There is such a job, it’s everywhere to spoil where you appear, that's why many people put minuses to him automatically and you came to this, congratulations.

[haron]

Quote: sasha.28blaga

You are in kind Pimpled ..

Well, you're in good nature. You were probably found in a cabbage in childhood, and that cabbage grew in a kind of house ... let's come up with something else and let us down under the truth. Can we invent a thread in the theory of relativity and try to fly to the stars on this "theory" ??? As, a lover of myths, it is weak to invent and build ... but can you jump off the balcony like an iron man ???

[Uhalus]

In fact, the article is just about the feat of the entire division. And "Panfilov's 28" is a kind of a sign of the theme (I forgot what it is called in journalistic terms). And really, it doesn't matter already, there were 20, 28 or 33, for example. The main thing is what exactly they did in such conditions ...

[flint1309]

She’s damn what Panfilov’s are there! Here are just three MERCAVES WHOLE ten Mujahideen Arabs flunked HERE !!! FEAT!!!

[Philippov]

Quote: Pimply

Because they shoot about 28 panfilovtsev.

No, they’re not shooting about 28 Panfilov’s men, they’re shooting about the ACTION of all Russian soldiers! And 28 Panfilov’s are just a small particle of the whole people, in which our Great People are reflected in a drop.

[Pimply]

Yes? Read what the authors of the film wrote.
If you shoot about the feat of all Russian soldiers - let them shoot about the feat, not claiming historicity.

[Philippov]

Quote: Pimply

without claiming historicity.

What kind of historicity is the movie "Saving Private Rhine" talking about?

[Pimply]

Not about any. They do not pretend to be historical truth; they clearly indicate themselves as feature films. Here is such a small difference.

However, if you are not in the know, the story with Rain is largely true. This campaign was not, perhaps. But the Nilanda brothers were. Frederick - it was he who was sent away from the fighting - by then he managed to get the Bronze Star. At the time of sending, it was believed that all three of his brothers were killed, but his brother Edward, a former pilot, survived and was captured by the Japanese.

[Asan Ata]

The Kulikovo battle, adored by all, was also like, but left no traces, and now what?

[gold]

the ball is already clever, drink the poison everyone feels better. I would look at you in that trench ...

[Uhalus]

Sorry, Pupyrchaty, but you seem to have reported ... The feat of our soldiers is an undoubted story and fact! Everything, of course, was, but in the majority - it was a feat! And in this case - the undoubted historicity of the feat.

[Asan Ata]

I object, not Russian, but Soviet. The general Panfilov’s division was an international, including my Kazakhs. By the way, tactics of small-scale combat against superior lieutenant Momysh Ula (commander of the 1073th Talgar Rifle Regiment of the 316th Rifle Division) are studied in all military academies of the world. It is about the Great Soviet People!

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Asan Ata

I object, not Russian, but Soviet.

No difference. Now any anti-Soviet, a priori-Russophobe.
For the "west" it makes no difference whether you are Russian, or Kazakh, Jew or Nanaets - they will be called - Russian.

[Ded_smerch]

We are not writing for the West, but for our own people so that we must correctly speak. The Soviet soldier is a hero of the internationalist (a man of the Red Empire). Yes, there were a majority of Russians, but this does not beg the feat of the same Kazakhs.

[sasha.28blaga]

Well done Kazakh. We were friends with you in the army.

[Ded_smerch]

Hello fellow countryman. I agree with your amendment.

[biznaw]

It’s really more correct to talk about the Soviet ones, there was such a nation before. We also remember the reeds, we read his book about the highway. He has no inventions, only correctly applied tactics of the times of gray-haired, during the invasions of the steppe, tactics of ambush and ambush were invented by ancestors.

[flint1309]

That was right then, not Russian but Soviet! And not for fear, they didn’t go for multi-colored candy wrappers ... But for CONSCIENCE and for the MOTHERLAND !!!

[dastan13]

coordination: "Soviet" soldiers

Quote: philippov

No, they’re not shooting about 28 Panfilov’s men, they’re shooting about the ACTION of all Russian soldiers!

[Gahprom]

so why did you decide that taking off about 28 would forget about the division?

The author was offered a VK, he categorically refused

what kind of "did not read, but I condemn"

I read something more like yours

[Rider]

Quote: Gahpro

I read something more like yours

Yes, I already understood, Reasonable Solonshchyna YOUR FSE.

[Gahprom]

Yes, I already understood, Reasonable Solonshchyna YOUR FSE.

Do you speak with voices in your head?
and therefore I bring Isaev and Dyukov here?
Patriot from Topvar is always stupid ....

[Rider]

Quote: Gahpro

and therefore I bring Isaev and Dyukov here?

first you bring not you.
links to books are not posted by you.
you just brought the OPINION of Isaev.

Quote: Gahpro

Patriot from Topvar is always stupid ..

the faecal seeker looks even dumber.

[Gahprom]

Quote: Rider

the faecal seeker looks even dumber.

I watch this crown relevant to you, indulge in?

first you bring not you.
links to books are not posted by you.
you just brought the OPINION of Isaev.

the patriotic patriot is also blind.

Gakhprom Today, 11:54 ↑
And Isaev, a historian
In general, I repeat: a film about this episode is wrecking and expanding the circle of people who know about the investigation, the Shutsman and others like him. Zhurny will drag fried masses to the masses for an informational occasion. Do we really need this?
http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/arhprint/2490244

A Dyukov, historian
Yes, I completely agree.
http://a-dyukov.livejournal.com/1329200.html

[Rider]

Quote: Gahpro

the patriotic patriot is also blind.

Gryazekopun is also stupid.
second post in today's discussion.
there are all links to books.
you just brought utterances.

[grafrozow]

And you don’t need to look, but you won’t drown.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Gahpro

Patriot from Topvar is always stupid ....

Glory to the all-good Buddha that among us there is such a giant of thought as Gahprom !
While he is among us, personally, I am not worried about the intellectual level of the Military Review.

[Rider]

Quote: Karlsonn

Glory to the All-Blessing Buddha that among us there is such a giant of thought as Gakhprom!

Well, what can you do, these are the WRITERS OF MYTHS.

how to grill "for lack of a stamp, we use ..."

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Rider

Well, what can you do, these are the WRITERS OF MYTHS.

Personally, I don’t understand the discussion at all.
Yes, there was no "textbook feat of 28 Panfilov's men".
The feat of the "Panfilov Division" was.
From the point of view of history as a science, the theme for the film is more suitable The Feat of the Platoon of Lieutenant Shironin PN, or the Airborne Troops led by Senior Lieutenant Olshansky KF.
From the point of view of public and cinematic events, the legend of 28 Panfilov’s people is more suitable.
And the debate about this film is proof of this.
I hope the authors have the strength to overcome all obstacles.
I hope they manage to make a great and entertaining film.
I sent money, I hold fists for them.

[Rider]

Quote: Karlsonn

Personally, I don’t understand the discussion at all.

Well, in general, and I got excited.

it’s just because there is MEMORY, and there are RELEASERS of MYTHS.
they seem to be telling the truth, but anyway it turns out THAT MEMORY was REVEALED.

I remember writing (during the USSR) that during the defense of Sevastopol 4 the marine Lied under the tanks with grenades.
but there were FOLLOWERS who said that this was not so and the Germans didn’t have tanks on this site.

So it turns out that the impersonal defense of Sevastopol was, but there were no exploits.

every nation is proud of its heroic past, but it seems we are the only ones who strive to dismantle this past.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Rider

Well, in general, and I got excited.

it’s just because there is MEMORY, and there are RELEASERS of MYTHS.
they seem to be telling the truth, but anyway it turns out THAT MEMORY was REVEALED.

Fans of TRUTH should re-read the article again.

[IRBIS]

Quote: Rider

I remember writing (during the USSR) that during the defense of Sevastopol 4 the marine Lied under the tanks with grenades.

Not 4, but five heroes of the Red Navy, led by political instructor Filchenkov.

Quote: Rider

but there were FOLLOWERS who said that this was not so and the Germans didn’t have tanks on this site.

I have nothing against the heroic defense of Sevastopol. But:
The Germans did not have tanks at that time, not only on this site, but in the entire army of Manstein. Our command simply needed to somehow justify the loss of Crimea.
Sorry, but besides the articles of the propaganda industry there are also archives and other documents. Work with them.

[Rider]

Quote: IRBIS

Sorry, but besides the articles of the propaganda industry there are also archives and other documents. Work with them.

Yes, I taste, and read on this episode.

another matter WHO HE HINDERED?

Well, people believed in heroes.
boys on their example learned to love their homeland.

I’m interested in why all kinds of TRAINERS are not looking for unknown heroes but like picking at fried facts.

[Kubanets]

Yes, according to the memoirs of Manstein 11, the army did not have tanks. But there were two divisions of the Sturmgeshutts. And how is it easier for a soldier in a rifle cell that he is not rushing a tank but a self-propelled gun?

[Rider]

it seems there was something based on Czech t-38

[FRIGATE2]

Quote: Karlsonn

Glory to the All-Blessing Buddha that among us there is such a giant of thought as Gakhprom!
While he is among us, personally, I am not worried about the intellectual level of the Military Review.

Dear, you wouldn’t respond so maliciously.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: FRIGATE2

Dear, you wouldn’t respond so maliciously.

If a person begins to be rude here, the attitude towards him is appropriate, for the first time.

[Lopatov]

The official position of the authors of the film:

Nobody needs the whole truth, only the part that makes a person stronger, cleaner and closer to God is needed

[Rider]

Quote: Spade

The official position of the authors of the film:
Nobody needs the whole truth, only the part that makes a person stronger, cleaner and closer to God is needed

Is it really bad?

Well, about the TRUTH, how do you feel about the CLEANER movie?
there, after all, the TRUTH of percent so on 90.

[Pimply]

Yes, it’s bad. Because they trample in the mud the memory of over a hundred-odd real heroes, replacing them with heroes from the popular print.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Yes, it’s bad. Because they trample in the mud the memory of

so let's do it.

we’ll take a list of Jewish Jewish civilian social networks and find out that one got a hero on the Tashkent front, the other because he sewed his cap well, and the third because he was the 3rd assistant to (say) Kotin.
I don’t say that it is (you’ll start asking for references again, and I’ll have to distribute the archive with an anti-Semitic bias)
I just ASSUME that it’s really so bare.

so tell you LIKE this?
what because of several tips, the rest didn’t deserve the award?

[Pimply]

Dig out. To get started - do it. Just why only of Jewish nationality. The USSR is an international. Let's take a look at everyone.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Just why only of Jewish nationality. USSR - International

Well, no!
I’m a LOCATOR, and I’ll dig where I want to.

I certainly won’t do it (I’m anti-Semitic, but not to the same extent)
I'm just curious
will you then insist on the DISPOSAL OF MYTH?

[Pimply]

Quote: Rider

THE DISPOSAL OF MYTH?

Excluding consideration of other GSS? No, I have no problem. Only it is necessary to consider also representations on GSS. Well, that was objectivity. At the same time, it is necessary to debunk the myth that the Jews were pinched in this area, giving out awards of lower dignity or not at all in connection with the fifth count.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Excluding consideration of other GSS? No, I have no problem.

okay on occasion I will raise the topic.

Quote: Pimply

Well, that was objectivity

do not wait, only the golimy TRUTH (TM)
only debunking a myth.
and what conclusions will I give ... mmm song.

[Pimply]

What myth? There is a myth that Jews fought only on the Tashkent front. What other myth are you going to debunk?

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

What other myth are you going to debunk?

Well, for example, that the Jews are the smartest.
about the Araboira war you can walk.
about the occupied land

[Pimply]

Forward. Let's debunk the myths. I'm all for it. Start collecting statistics. We will deal with debunking. Please only, less myths - more data

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Forward.

Do not worry, do not rust.

[IRBIS]

Quote: Rider

take a list of Jewish Jewish nationalities

Do this:
1. Take the list of 28 "Panfilovites" who were awarded the title "Hero of the Soviet Union".
2. Take a list of those who have been stripped of this title.
3. Compare.
4. Finding the surname "Dobrobabin" - be surprised.
Dobabin, who "heroically" died at the Dubosekovo junction, served with the Germans. It was his appeal after the war for the "hero" star that became the reason for the investigation by the NKVD. Read the materials of the investigation, it fully describes the battle of the 1075th regiment at that time. Read it and be surprised again.
And do not think in cliches. You need to talk about real, not invented or assigned heroes.

[Rider]

Quote: IRBIS

Do this:

almost everything that you advised me, I have already done.
and about one Judah too.
BUT DOES THIS DEPLETE THE EXPLOIT OF THE OTHERS?

oh and the rest was not, well then it’s clear.
Martians fought near Dubosekov, and German tanks burned with X rays.

[Ulan]

Well, if you take this approach, then you can reach an agreement to the point of absurdity. Since they made a film about 28 Panfilov's men and didn't shoot about the defenders of the pillboxes of the Kiev UR, it means that the memory of these heroes was "trampled into the mud".
A delusional statement, anything can be pulled under it.
I think the authors of the film are not so stupid as to be silent about the other participants in the events.

[Pimply]

Someone forbid to shoot about 28 Panfilov’s? No. Just do not shout everywhere that this is historical truth. There was a fight. Another battle. Much less beautiful, and much more cruel.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

No. Just do not shout everywhere that this is historical truth.

or maybe you shouldn’t shout that it was historical is NOT true.
maybe you should take the film in the CONTEXT of the heroic defense of Panfilov’s division?

[Pimply]

Worth it. Because the myth closed real people.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Worth it. Because the myth closed real people.

well why did they close 6
Is it a "myth" to shut down Panfilov's division 7
or fight at Dubosekovo?
Is political instructor Klochkov MYTH?
Did they shut down the other soldiers who died heroically?

just hid a couple of unsightly episodes.

but I don’t understand how it fits with the CLOSURE of REAL PEOPLE.

sorry, but you are already starting to repeat and find fault.

[Pimply]

Have closed. Completely

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Have closed. Completely

I don’t understand, nobody knows about Panfilov’s division?

WHAT WERE CLOSED?

[Pimply]

Because they know the myth of 28 Panfilov’s men, and don’t know the truth about the 4th company.

[Rider]

but it does not seem to you that the 4th company is kind of included in this "myth".
that the "myth" (in your opinion) is the GENERAL knowledge of the feat of the people in general and the same 4th company in particular?

[Pimply]

You need to know about the real feat, and not defend the invention of the journalist.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

You need to know about the real feat

so I didn’t understand, wasn’t there Panfilov’s division and battle at Dubosekovo?

or nobody knows about this?

you do not admit the thought that the "new generation" knows at least something about the REAL FEAT thanks to this (allegedly) myth.

our discussion has reached a dead end. except for "closed, blocked. refuted" arguments ended.
there is no point endlessly repeating the same thing.

[Pimply]

And who knows about this? They know about 28 Panfilovites. About a fictitious, not a real feat. And fiercely defend this myth. Yes, it’s more pleasant to believe in fairy tales.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Yes, it’s more pleasant to believe in fairy tales.

this is not a fairy tale, it is a GENERALIZED IMAGE of the SOVIET PEOPLE IN THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR.

if this is not clear to you. then I feel sorry for you.

[Yarbay]

Quote: Rider

this is a GENERALIZED IMAGE of the SOVIET PEOPLE IN THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR.

Then I agree with you !!
In general, I agree with many of the above in this discussion !!
I have a question for Eugene, is it that the film Salvation of Private Rain is based on historical documents and everything was like in a movie ??? That is, in a movie everything was given for sure? !!

[il grand casino]

I will answer for Eugene. In Rain, it never occurred to anyone to claim that it was based on anything.
P.S. The film is in my opinion on the three. Not a fan)))

[Rider]

Quote: il grand casino

In Rain, it never occurred to anyone to claim that it was based on anything.

that is, he shot a frank tale?
and there was no landing in Normandy?

[il grand casino]

Don't get caught up in the little things. He may still begin to argue that if they did not write "filmed based on real events" then there is no sea, and there is no sand on the beach. There was a landing. But the filmmakers do not claim that she was what she was shown. For them, it's just a feature film. YES and the landing is not the main detail of the film. Though colorful and expensive.
P.S. If they nevertheless tried to slip their appearance of the situation as the truth in the last resort - God will judge them.
P.S.S. I am against myths. I am for praising real deeds, real people. There are many examples of such people, fortunately (that they are and were) and grief (that heroes usually become heroes in their last minutes).

[Rider]

Quote: il grand casino

I am for praising real deeds, real people.

If you have not noticed, then I am NOT AGAINST this.
but here’s a hack, we don’t have people who want to do this.

but the DISCLAIMERS of all stripes, like dogs uncut.

And on D-day, they just think how it was shot in the film.
since they have their own FOLLOWERS, in the afternoon with fire.
don't pay them for it.

[Yarbay]

Quote: il grand casino

I am for praising real deeds, real people.

And who is against !! ??
But do not mix the movie with other types of art !!))))

[Yarbay]

Quote: il grand casino

I will answer for Eugene. In Rain, it never occurred to anyone to claim that it was based on anything.

Thanks for the answer for Eugennia !!))))
But if you were careful there is a letter from the general to Private Rain !!
This documentary letter and the film is based on real events !!!
But everything was just like in the movie!
No Rain was simply recalled with the help of a walkie-talkie !!! There the truth and speculation are intertwined !! I liked the film !!

[il grand casino]

Quote: Yarbay

Quote: il grand casino

I will answer for Eugene. In Rain, it never occurred to anyone to claim that it was based on anything.

Thanks for the answer for Eugennia !!))))
But if you were careful there is a letter from the general to Private Rain !!
This documentary letter and the film is based on real events !!!
But everything was just like in the movie!
No Rain was simply recalled with the help of a walkie-talkie !!! There the truth and speculation are intertwined !! I liked the film !!

Hm ... missed that. Thanks for the info. But this does not change my general idea.

Quote: Rider

And on D-day, they just think how it was shot in the film.
since they have their own FOLLOWERS, in the afternoon with fire.
don't pay them for it.

There are plenty of whistleblowers around. But even if they are not there - if you believe the events based on only one film / book, then you have to go to school ... even I remember that they drummed into us in high school - any information should come from many sources. By the way, this is also taught in "capitalist" schools. Only now, everything often flies by deaf ears. However, as with us.

[Pimply]

The generalized image of the Soviet people is a monument to the Motherland, say. And when they try to replace history with a myth, it is trampling on real memory.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Pimply

. Because they trample in the mud the memory of over a hundred-odd real heroes, replacing them with heroes from the popular print.

Where do you write from?

[Lopatov]

This is bad. Moreover, it is disastrous for this particular film.

Half truth in such a sensitive matter is worse than a lie.

[Rider]

Quote: Spade

This is bad. Moreover, it is disastrous for this particular film.

Uv Lopatov, when you answer, pliiiz insert a quote in the headline, otherwise it is not clear to whom it is addressed.

bad not because it is a myth, but because of the illiterate implementation of the project.
if you get something like a fines or (God forbid) weary of conscience, I’ll be the first to throw dirt at the creators.
but if (as they say in the article) the film will be shot with public money and without all kinds of producers who KNOW HOW TO SUBMIT THE HISTORICAL TRUTH.
It can turn out quite worthy.

something else surprises me.

that’s how much outright LIES came out about the war.
and all of our truth-seekers, as a gateway to the water, got (that is, they got the other one), it’s worth at least to announce a film about the ACTION, about which YOU CAN BE Proud, as their squeals have no end.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Rider

if you get something like a fines or (God forbid) weary of conscience, I’ll be the first to throw dirt at the creators.

It will get worse. Something like a spat on "9th company"

Quote: Rider

that’s how much outright LIES came out about the war.
and all of our truth-seekers, as a gateway to water

Yah?

[Rider]

Quote: Spade

It will get worse. Something like a spat on "9th company"

can we see first?
and by the way I like 9.
there is shown EXPERIENCE.
and only at the end did they screw up with "they were all abandoned"
for FINDERS it turns out just one turn.
in full screen AAA US FORGET US FOR US !!!

and only at the end in small print did we fulfill our duty, we won.

Quote: Spade

Yah?

well yes.
I didn’t hear something from the REVISIONISTS from history, their refutation to all fighters, and night Vedas.
about them gakhtyhi silence
Yes, and you are not noticeable there (we’re not talking about pimply)

[Lopatov]

Quote: Rider

I didn’t hear something from the REVISIONISTS from history, their refutation to all fighters, and night Vedas.
about them gakhtyhi silence

Their, these denials, just the sea. You are corny do not want to notice them

[Rider]

Quote: Spade

Their, these refutations, are just the sea

their really sea.
but not from those about whom I speak RELEASERS.

in almost every article about the Second World War there is a dispute about the causes of lesions, and rubber pickers necessarily appear.
something in the "battles" with them puffy is not noticed.
and guys like me bite with them (oh, I won’t die of modesty)

[Lopatov]

There above is the negative opinion of historians about this film. Dear historians. Always struggling with all kinds of cutters. What category are you trying to write them to?

[Pimply]

A feat is good. Only then it is necessary to remove "based on real events" from the title.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Only then it is necessary to remove "based on real events" from the title.

in such a case, such titles should be removed from 99% of the films where they are mentioned.
in each one you can dig up so many inaccuracies and outright distortions that the movie can be safely closed.

[Pimply]

Respected. When the details differ - this is one thing. When a piece of history is completely changed, it’s different. Yes, in at least half of the films where it stands - based on real events - there should not be such an inscription.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

When a piece of history is completely changed - it's different

please clarify how the PIECE OF HISTORY is changing.

maybe the film will not mention Panfilov’s division, but Rodimtseva, or Rybalko?
or maybe they will say that this did not happen during the battle for Moscow, but for the defense of Washington?

[Pimply]

You are currently advocating falsification of history. That's all.

[Rider]

at the moment you say nonsense, that's all

[Yarbay]

Quote: Pimply

You are currently advocating falsification of history. That's all

Zhenya and where does it !!))))
Here in my childhood I loved the film about the GSS, the partisan of the saboteur Mehti Huseynzade * On the far shores *!
There, not everything is documented, that is, let's say the end of the film is one of the versions of his death !! What does it mean falsification of history ??
This movie!!!!!
I will give an example of falsification !!
Here's an example of a film and a novel by Pikul * BAYAZET *!
There, the hero of the defense of the fortress of Khan Nakhichevan is shown as a coward and a traitor, that is, they do not just distort, but falsify the historical event and the role of the individual there !!

[IRBIS]

Quote: Rider

there, after all, the TRUTH of percent so on 90.

In "Purgatory" there is practically no truth, the film is from the category of "soldier's tales". Just don't gurgle in righteous indignation. Personally - I was, I participated - directly, but I haven't seen anything like that. Bullshit!
I want to note that I am not talking about the heroism of our soldiers, but about the way it is "presented" from the screen.

[Rider]

Quote: IRBIS

There is practically no truth in "Purgatory"

and this is which side to look at.

because if you take everything separately.
shelling by their own, Baltic snipers, mercenaries, killed peaceful people. ripped off heads.
then all this is certainly TRUE.
it is only a matter of staging and compilation.

there is the only 100% FALSE this is "burying" by a tank (well, you get the idea)

Quote: IRBIS

Personally - was, participated - directly, but did not see such

I'll throw you in a personal

[Ulan]

Yeah ... I'm a writer. Well, let's do it in order. and About myths and films.
My deep conviction is that films should be made.
In response to the "penal battalions" it is necessary to shoot "They fought for the Motherland" .... "The Living and the Dead."
I completely agree with the author of the article. Was there a divzia? Was. Performed a feat? Was there a battle at Dubosekovo? Was. What else is not clear? Now about 28. Someone here wrote that this is a "dastardly myth"? What is mean? They surrendered to the Germans? Escaped from their positions? No, the last names are not the same and there were not 28 of them? It may well be.
My opinion is that a film about the Panfilov division is needed, and as an episode in it about the fight near Dubosekovo, too. Perhaps without specifying the names and number of participants, I can’t argue here. But the episode in the film itself should be.
Now about the myths.
Well, it’s like we are all adults, that to deceive each other. Myths were and will be. And this is neither good nor bad, it is a FACT. And it must be taken for granted.
And you need to understand for yourself what is better - patriotic myths or anti-patriotic. In my opinion, if you can’t avoid myths in history, then let them be patriotic myths that serve to raise pride for the country, for its history, for its heroes.
Ah, now the rezuns and Svanidze will have an excuse to make fun of. Well, everyone ... napuhali. For some reason they are not afraid, but we should tremble before their "exposure".
Myths were and will be and spots can be found on the sun. The same Gagarin is to some extent a myth. Wasn’t there in his life, any moments that do not really color him? And what will we dig up or preserve the image that we have?
Or Kozhedub? Yes, you never know. So no need to swear pseudo-patriots, etc. but just to understand what’s worse - to leave the image of Kosmodemyanskaya as a heroine or make her a criminal. Here and think before throwing accusations.
And films must be filmed. Moreover, there are plenty of them. There is still no film about our tank ace Zinovia Kolobanov. But "White Tiger" is. There is no film about Pokryshkin, about the battle of Lutsk and Brody. There is no film about the Battle of Kulikovo. Why not shoot the film "Port Arthur" based on the book of Stepanov. Or "Tsushima", the film could give a hundred points ahead of "Pearl Harbor". Here is my opinion.

[Yura]

Quote: Ulan

I completely agree with the author of the article. Was there a divia? Was. You accomplished a feat? Made. Was there a battle near Dubosekovo? Was. What else is not clear?

Quote: Ulan

Now about 28. Someone here wrote that this is a "dastardly myth"? What is mean? They surrendered to the Germans? Escaped from their positions? No, the last names are not the same and there were not 28 of them? It may well be.

28 Panfilov long ago became the image and symbol of the whole division, they are already inseparable

Quote: Ulan

In my opinion, if it is impossible to avoid myths in history, then let it be patriotic myths serving to raise pride for the country, for its history, for its heroes.

Here you are also right, very much. These published stories, both real and somehow imagined, inspired and inspired our defenders for exploits. And films definitely need to be shot.

Quote: Ulan

Ah, now the rezuns and Svanidze will have an excuse to make fun of. Well, everyone ... napuhali. For some reason they are not afraid, but we should tremble before their "exposure".

You are probably on a subconscious but absolutely rightly put these two surnames next to the Reason defector and the traitor, what truth can be expected from the traitor, he knows Svanidze about this, it’s a pity that he doesn’t know how he will end his life to defame the country from which got everything. ...... In general, I don’t really understand what is happening today with the comments, the article is very good, from an indifferent person and a patriot, and the fuss in some comments is not good, it seems that they are telling the truth somewhere but somehow it’s unclean or something. And yet, those who write and consider rezuna a source of knowledge, it is better not to write anything at all if you do not want to be considered the same as who you are. The article is a definite plus, you are also Ulan, it’s a pity you can just put one at a time.

[Ulan]

Thank you. I would also like to add ... really about the sensations from some posts. It seems that the truth is written, but there is an unpleasant aftertaste. You also need to be able to submit so that it does not act worse than a lie. Sometimes it is better to remain silent.

[Nagaibak]

Gakhprom "I am not Stas57, but I will answer."
Answer for yourself first.
For the weak of the mind, I decipher my position. Give an example specifically. A link to the interview, a book, who said what and where.

[Yura]

Quote: Ulan

In my opinion, you turned everything inside out. I don’t know why you did it, but in my opinion it turned out a scam.

What a scam.

[sevtrash]

For filmmakers, journalists, the main thing is that their creation is watched or revered by more people, and as far as the plot corresponded to reality, this is the second or no turn for them. A scandalous case - so it’s good for them, and also to warm up - it’s all so fine.
From the point of view of propaganda, Panfilov’s played their role one hundred percent and, probably, had a positive impact on the morale of the troops. So then, the journalists Koroteev, Krivitsky, Ortenberg completed their work on the final result.
Now, it seems to stick to the fictional version does not make sense. The heroism of the 16th army will not be reduced.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Stas57

with a dropout Yulin

Stas57

Good afternoon. I want to know the name of your scientific work, as well as popular science.
There is a great desire to read.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Stas57

But to hell with you

Perhaps you do not know, but to be rude here is not accepted.

Quote: Stas57

you will be scum and penal battalion, because our elite can’t shoot normally

Can you read carefully?

The reason for this was the attempt of a group of enthusiasts, tired of the slop about the war, filmed by eminent creators with state money, to create a film about the legendary feat at the Dubosekovo junction.

Next time, try to memorize the text of the article you just read, but if you can still analyze it and draw conclusions, it will be just wonderful.
With all due respect, Karlsonn.

[Lopatov]

There was already such a negative experience. The film "9th company". On the whole, normal, but his connection to specific events ruined him. And now it is positioned as an artistic lie.
The same fate will await this film.

[Pimply]

About that and speech, about that and speech.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Spade

There was already such a negative experience. The film "9th company". On the whole, normal, but his connection to specific events ruined him.

Guano "9th company" was ruined not by the attachment to events, but by the anti-Soviet war in the mind of the creators.

Quote: Spade

The same fate will await this film.

I hope no.

Once again, this film is about LEGEND.
A film about the legend of 300 Spartans does not look bad, although

screaming

- FILM "300 SPARTANTS" - LIE !!!
EVERYTHING WAS NOT SO !!!
THERE WAS NOT 300 !!!
PERSONS WAS LESS !!!
THE ELEPHANES DO NOT COLLECT IN AN ELEPHANT !!!
Fighting Rhinos - WASN'T !!!

keeps fighting in hysterics

NINJA DID NOT FIGHT FOR XERX !!!
SHIPBRUSHES AND DESTRUCTION OF A PART OF THE PERSIAN ARMY UNDER THE FERM saws - THERE WAS NOT !!!
THE ARMY OF PERSONS BY BRIDGES YOU MOVED !!!
XERX WAS NOT A BALD BASKETBALL PLAYER !!!
ETHIALT WAS NOT A FREAK !!! AAAA HE WASN'T EVEN SPARTAN !!!

ripped off his voice, went to smoke break

[Lopatov]

When this film is criticized by anyone who has anything to do with journalism, you will remember my words.

[Ulan]

Surely there will be those who will "denounce". Again, this is Russian wisdom - you cannot put a scarf on every mouth.
These gentlemen and the pure truth "vilify" so mom do not grieve.
Well now, don’t say, don’t write, don’t shoot? This means surrendering ourselves.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Spade

When this film is criticized by anyone who has anything to do with journalism, you will remember my words.

And I do not care about the opinions of everyone related to journalism; I have my own opinion.
And in general at the moment I am very interested in something else.

[Raphael_83]

Hello Karlsonn.
And I so sincerely considered Zack Snyder’s movie this ... like her ... Well, you understand, right? AND! Remembered! Artistic hyperbole, lo! For all that, what a feat, despite elephants, rhinos and other baseball players, was?

PS
Personally, I much prefer the original film of 1962 with Rick Egan as Leonid. It is necessary to look for historical authenticity in it with a magnifying glass, but the classics and the heroic pathos are much more sane.
From SW.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Raphael_83

And I so sincerely considered Zack Snyder’s movie this ... like her ... Well, you understand, right? AND! Remembered! Artistic hyperbole, here

I showed an example of how you can bring anything to idiocy, for example, sue the Louvre as an organized gang of scammers, which shows two-dimensional planes on which three-dimensional space is supposedly depicted - cuts loot from people!

Quote: Raphael_83

For all that, what a feat, despite elephants, rhinos and other baseball players, was?

As well as the feat of Panfilov’s. There were not 300 Spartans, and not 28 Panfilovs, but the ACTION does not detract.

Quote: Raphael_83

Personally, I much prefer the original film of 1962 with Rick Egan as Leonid.

And I like the movie, SOVIET! "Liberation" and especially the fact that 10 Tigers and 8 Panthers were specially released for this film, stupidly building them at the totalitarian Soviet factory for filming.

[Raphael_83]

Well! "Liberation" is the most common standard of such cinema, in my opinion.
Now I sit reviewing Ozerov's "Battle for Moscow", there is just in the 4th film there is an episode dedicated to that battle

[Yarbay]

Quote: Karlsonn

Guano "9th company" was ruined not by the attachment to events, but by the anti-Soviet war in the mind of the creators

I agree!!

[Ulan]

Do you know this for sure? There is no film yet, but do you already know what it will be and what fate awaits him? For the Ukrainians, this is called - don’t give me a gop. Or, before the dad’s hell.
Can we still wait for the release of the film and then discuss it?
Each film has its advantages and disadvantages, the question is what is more. In the film "Brest Fortress" there are also jambs, but did that really make it a libel on the defenders of the fortress?
I think we need to discuss how we would like to see this and other films about the war, and not give an assessment of what has not yet been shot.

[Garysit]

And what Mr. Isaev, who was born in 1974 and has a technical education, can know about the war, he fought? And how, having worked in the military archive for 3 years, did he scribble so many opuses ?????? Good "authority"

[Onotollah]

Quote: Stas57

you are my patriotic

And yet, you are not our patriotic and very erudite friend (where are we already up to you and your idols)
I have to tell you that in a clean field, but against German tanks one must have courage, and after more than 70 years to find out whether there was a feat in the silence of classrooms, but screaming that there were no boys - it smells very unpleasant.
It is clear that the trench truth is different from the ideal, and in real life there is a place for blood, death and pants soiled with fear, but despite this, most normal people still have a feat in their memory.
Nevertheless, there is always a smelly bunch of figures finding out different details and pulling out those recommended pants to the white light.
Well, stas 57, you became happier from the fact that there were more than 28 heroes?
Is your keen sense of erudite justice satisfied with the overthrow of the symbol from the pedestal?
So here, the legacy of the Great Feat is pulled apart a piece:
At first there were not 28 Panfilov’s, then there weren’t 28 Panfilov’s, then there weren’t Panfilov’s at all, and there was a gray mass of citizens driven by the tyrant Stalin under the tracks of tanks.
And the heroes cannot argue, there was no time for them to "post bows" on iPhones, and there were no bones left of them.
And Maresyev really wasn’t, and the Sailors actually stumbled so you get our erudite, because there is no commission report from the scene, there is no survey of eyewitnesses, there are no movie photos of the materials depicting the feat, and since there is nothing to talk about truth?
And the navigable lighthouse is just a big light bulb, the creed of Christians is just a set of letters, and the eternal flame on the graves of fallen soldiers is the unreasonable expenditure of budgetary funds.
Why am I saying all this - 28 Panfilov’s are a collective image, an example to follow, and everyone has the right to choose whether to follow it or not, but to reproach him
meanly.

[Ded_smerch]

28 is not a myth, but an image of the feat of the entire division. Do you feel the difference?

[Python Kaa]

How do you imagine an hour and a half film "about the whole division"? You have been told that there were 28 Panfilovites and political instructor Klochkov, and even a movie about it will be shot, which means that it was so. Moreover, there were no less heroic events that were not known not only to journalists, but to anyone in general, due to the death of the heroes.
My children know about 28, and grandchildren will know.
Millions will watch the film, and historians will die in complete oblivion.

[vezunchik]

Curl and greed are the misfortune of pro-Western rats. Like Judas, they want money and fame, but they forget what he ended up with, as in the rest of Berezovsky ....

[starshina78]

How long can you talk and speculate about Panfilov's men? There was a fight, there was a feat, what else? Yes, it has now been proven that not everyone died, someone was seriously wounded, and someone was even taken prisoner (there was a documentary about this at one time, where videos were shot in which real participants in this battle told their memories, one of them - a Kazakh, was in captivity, because of this he was not awarded the "Gold Medal" of a hero of the Soviet Union, but the most interesting thing is that his name was carved on the monument to the heroes of Panfilov in Kazakhstan, as a deceased). The most important thing is that, at the cost of their life and health, they held back the German fascist tanks.

[Pimply]

It was a completely different fight. With a different number of victims, with a different number of victories. With everything else. And there are over 100 forgotten people.

[Firstvanguard]

This is holivar
1. The film has not yet been released - a fact.
2. Heroic defense was a fact.
3. The Panfilov division was also holding this defense - a fact.
4. Panfilovites were much more than 28 - a fact.
5. In a separate time period of the heroic defense of the Panfilov division, in a single local area, 28 people could defend themselves - a fact.
6. The legend is not accurate in details, but illustrates the general essence - the fact.
7. There were innumerable feats like this in that war, many thousands - a fact.
8. The unknown of most of them, no reason not to make films about individual ones - IMHO.
9. The task of such films is to demonstrate to the living compatriots the steadfastness and dedication of the Soviet people who defended their homeland in that difficult situation - IMHO.
10. Does the film cope with such a task? We look at item number 1.

What is srach about?
Discuss better the film K-19, its historical value / reliability and what ***** it has released on the central channels of domestic television.

[Quiet]

Feat Panfilov - was.

Feat individual mouth - was.

ETERNAL GLORY TO HEROES IS NOT DEPENDING ON NATIONALITY !!!!!

AND THEY AND I, ALL WERE BORN IN THE GREAT SOVIET UNION !!!!!

[KBPC50]

Toads graze for the money of the people, the state does business for itself, stuffs its pockets! But we, ordinary citizens of a great country, know: these 18-24 year olds laid their lives so that we live !!! And the mouths also live due to their death! Eternal glory to these fighters !!!

[Theophanes]

Where to transfer money to the film? With every pension I will send. Fuck them in the throat !!! The feat was !!!!

[T80UM1]

Land ... And the Germans wrote that the Siberians opposed them ... At that time, everyone fought near Moscow and beyond the limits of human abilities ... Honor and praise to the heroes.

[Gahprom]

Yes, they did not care, we are "Asian hordes" for them.

[Hikar]

waiting for the movie!

[Kazakh]

It’s time to pass a law on insulting the feelings of the patriots of their homeland with real terms. Otherwise, these clever men will eat us (with citadels, penal battalions and white tigers)

[Cyril7377]

I agree, during the USSR, such a law was called censorship, it's time to introduce it. Recently I read about the history of the creation of the film "Brest Fortress", so our "Russian" creators tried to stick into the film an episode with an attack by a Chechen-Ingush battalion, armed with spades and knives. They say that they were brave horsemen, they all perished, but the Germans were chopped up by a whole regiment ... Thanks to the Belarusians, they were outraged specifically and forced to remove the hack and slander. I think that this film only won.
Z.Y. Once the film is made by enthusiasts, at their own expense, then the film should turn out to be honest and truthful, without the massive feats of criminals and individuals. Uh, let's say so of a united nationality.

[T80UM1]

Zadolbal all these current trends to raise the Caucasus during the Second World War, rather a treacherous Chechen-Ingush battalion ... No wonder they were sent to us ... And the crap that allowed them to return ...

[adg76]

The citadel and the penal battalion agree. Such films have no right to exist. They destroy the state. The White Tiger, a film with meaning, a film not so much about the war and the exploits of soldiers, but about the confrontation of ideologies and two military machines. At the conclusion of the film, Hitler gives an interview that reflects the whole essence of European fascism.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Kazakh

It’s time to pass a law on insulting the feelings of the patriots of their homeland with real terms. Otherwise, these clever men will eat us (with citadels, penal battalions and white tigers)

According to Elena Gladkova:

Under the Russian Ministry of Defense, a scientific company may appear to combat falsifications of the country's history.
The unit is planned to be created at the Central Archive of the military department. According to Deputy Defense Minister Nikolai Pankov, experts will first of all analyze the historical falsifications associated with the events of the Second World War, which today are becoming more widespread both in Russia and abroad.
The scientific company will replace the special commission on combating falsifications created in 2009 by ex-president of Russia Dmitry Medvedev. Then the good idea received a strange embodiment (the commission included dubious personalities like the "outstanding" scientist-historian Nikolai Svanidze) and in 2012, as expected, ceased to exist due to inefficiency. Obviously, military historians with access to military archives (including secret ones) will be able to work an order of magnitude more productively and objectively than Svanidze and the like.

I hope that the company will be given machine guns from detachments from long-term storage warehouses.
Verily I say unto you
- general executions, will save the motherland!

[grafrozow]

When the shootings begin, you’ll come in handy, the Chekist’s grandson, the Chekist’s son. Are you not capable of anything else, will you shoot according to the class principle? over the corpses.

[Snoop]

Comrades belittling the feat should be themselves in the trenches near Moscow at that time))

[Yegorchik]

They are not comrades, they are gentlemen.

[Rider]

Quote: Egorchik

They are not comrades, they are gentlemen.

they are freaks.

[soldier's grandson]

there was an attack on Moscow, so there was a feat. Denying the feat, they deny the war, which means that according to their views there was no war, but it just might be German tourists on tanks, they drove away from Moscow

[Pimply]

That is, denying the lie invented by the journalist, and trying to remember the real heroes - is it to deny the Great Patriotic War?

[T80UM1]

it is called getting "dirty linen", something of Erich Hartman and his "352" shot down no one pours shit, the best ace of all times and peoples is even listed in the Guinness Book of Records. Although, in fact, it is also a scandalous propaganda, what is possible for some and not for others ???

[Rider]

Quote: T80UM1

what turns out some can and others can’t ???

THAT IS HOW IT IS !

the myths about billions of raped Germans are constantly being replicated, and the REAL "achievements" of the allies in this field are hushed up.
mussirut prison of nations, and forget who invented and meticulously used the CONCLUSION CAMP.

and only our pimply friends deny propaganda and the information war.

[Gahprom]

the myths about billions of raped Germans are constantly being replicated, and the REAL "achievements" of the allies in this field are hushed up.
mussirut prison of nations, and forget who invented and meticulously used the CONCLUSION CAMP.

old squeals began.
Someone said - do not need a movie?
said, remove about the division, and not about the fairy tale, to the joy of Rizun

[Iraclius]

What does Rezun have to do with it? Make a film about the division. Tell me how to do it? 20 series about the everyday life of all divisions and units?

[Gahprom]

[quote = Iraclius] What does Rezun have to do with it? / quote]
Because he does not use the opportunity to mock,

[quote] Make a film about the division. Tell me how to do it? 20 episodes about the everyday life of all divisions and units? [
[/ Quote]
the role of a clown does not suit you very much, have you watched, for example, "The Day of the Divisional Commander"? 20 episodes?

[Iraclius]

I am not rude to you. Be kind and you are not rude. And then I will answer in such a way that the ears will wrap. I have seen such "champions of the truth." I've seen enough.
I watched the film. Date of shooting - 1983 year. Are you sure that now there is money for the same large-scale film? I know not. But a film about the feat of one company can be removed.

[Rider]

Quote: Gahpro

Someone said - do not need a movie?
they said, take off about the division,

so why squeals 7

or have you seen the script 7

and by the way, if you really make a film, a la rezun.
I will be the first to scold such a viper.

[Gahprom]

so why squeals 7

or have you seen the script 7

and by the way, if you really make a film, a la rezun.
I will be the first to scold such a viper.

did you forget how Mikhalkov promised, said that there would be a decent movie, that heap of memoirs, that you watched films?
but in the end, sailing tanks, by the way, about the Dobbabin, will it be there, or about the fact that out of 28 only 6 will die?

[Rider]

Quote: Gahpro

but in the end, sailing tanks, by the way, about the Dobbabin, will it be there, or about the fact that out of 28 only 6 will die?

i know 7
and do you know ?
you haven't seen anything yet
NOBODY SAW,

but already condemn.

[Lopatov]

Once again, the filmmakers have long been unsubscribed about everything.

[Rider]

The tape will be based on the historical events that took place near Volokolamsk in the fall of 1941, when the Germans launched a new attack on Moscow: then the soldiers of the 4th company of the 316th Infantry Division performed a feat, destroying 18 enemy tanks during a 4-hour battle.

Many historians consider the official version of events to be literary fiction, but the filmmakers emphasize that "it’s better to sing a feat a hundred times that was not there, than to make a mistake once and not to recognize the feat that was."

that's what the filmmakers wrote.
and I don’t see anything seditious.

[grafrozow]

Speaking of concentration camps, their grandfather Lenin came up with in 1918, and in 1937. The Gestapo delegation came to Moscow to exchange experience with the NKVD, but you don’t need such a story.

[builder]

The first concentration camps were invented and built by the British during the Boer War of 1899-1902, in which about 30000 Boer women and children died in two years.
In the photo, the British aristocrat Lord Horace Kitchener, the creator of the first concentration camps, the Boer girl Lisa van Zil, who died from exhaustion in the British concentration camp.
Stop talking nonsense about

Grandfather Lenin in 1918, and in 1937 GESTAPO delegation came to Moscow to exchange experience with the NKVD

[Pimply]

Why not water it? The question of his victories is constantly being discussed. Another thing is that his victories are documented, 301 has confirmation. How much there are posts is another question.
However, 28 Panfilov’s is our story. Right? And remembering the invented heroes, we forgot about the real ones.

[T80UM1]

301 confirmation from partner! they all attributed 2-3 times themselves, and then another coefficient was 2 - 301 victories and not 301 downed aircraft. Deciphering the concept of "victory" can be understood as damage to a 2-motor aircraft, or shooting at an aircraft recorded by a photo-machine gun ...

[Pimply]

Can. And they even tried to prove the falsehood of Harmtman’s victories. For example, the Russian historian Dmitry Khazanov. However, the latter was completely defeated by opponents, Hans Ring and Jacques-Yves Laurent, who found in his work a huge number of inconsistencies, fraud, etc.

[T80UM1]

I don’t remember, but read on one site, in one flight in September 1943, Hartman shot down 6 aircraft, of which 2 mig3 1 and 16 2 yak1 and 1 il 2, and of all the Red Army air units operating in that region mig3 (the last aircraft were decommissioned in 42 due motor resources) was not in service, and 16 too ... From which it follows that the best ace of all time simply impudently attributed planes to himself at least 2 times ... And after that you suggest me to listen to bourgeois tales ??? So they all sincerely believe that the USSR lost 40 million soldiers against 4 from Germany and so on. I look and you are a supporter of these tales ...

[Pimply]

So you didn't "read somewhere", but find the material

[T80UM1]

http://militera.lib.ru/research/isaev_av2/08.html
Take for example two days, May 13 and 14, 1942, the height of the battle for Kharkov. On May 13, the Luftwaffe announces 65 downed Soviet aircraft, 42 of which are recorded on their own account by the III group of the 52nd fighter squadron. Documented losses of the Soviet Air Force on May 13 are 20 aircraft. The next day, pilots of group III of the 52nd fighter squadron report about 47 Soviet aircraft shot down in a day. The commander of the 9th squadron of the group, German Graf, announced six victories, his co-pilot Alfred Grislavsky chalked up two MiG-3s, Lieutenant Adolf Dickfeld announced nine (!) Victories that day. The real losses of the Red Army Air Force on May 14 were three times smaller, 14 aircraft (5 Yak-1, 4 LaGG-3, 3 Il-2, 1 Su-2 and 1 R-5). MiG-3s are simply not on this list.

[Pimply]

Where is Hartman?

[T80UM1]

follow the link there and there is about the hartman, listen to what you cling to specific words, there is no hartman here but there is a graph, and there are facts of the third registry, what's next? Cite the facts themselves exposing me that the hartman really knocked down, and with the confirmation of the Soviet side ...

[Pimply]

So give a piece about Hartman.

[T80UM1]

Therefore, I believe that the JG-52 headquarters requested confirmation from the ground troops about the downed planes (after all, Hartman shot down over his territory, and the ground troops could confirm this). If the downing was confirmed, then the ground forces could confirm the type of aircraft. Then the downed plane was listed, and this list of JG-52 headquarters was sent to the Luftwaffe headquarters. But if nobody saw the downing of the declared aircraft or its debris, then such a “victory” was sent only to Goebbels’s propaganda ministry. I see no other logical explanation. Of course, there could be overlays, for example, a crashed plane reached its territory, fell in a remote place, the infantry could not determine its type, etc. And, probably, Hartman shot down more than is stated in the diary JG-52, but still ... In the headquarters diary, of the 202 Soviet and American aircraft shot down by Hartman, he was only marked with 11! True, in one case, the type of aircraft is in the plural - Mustangs. Hartman announced them that day as many as 5 pieces. Even if you add all of them, then there will be 15. It is not a lot of 202 declared victories, is it? I got excited when I wrote that the number of Hartman's victories should be divided by 7,5. It is necessary to divide by 20!
http://www.e-reading-lib.com/chapter.php/103456/65/Muhin_-_Asy_i_propaganda._Dut
ye_pobedy_Lyuftwaffe.html

[Pimply]

Oh Gd. Are you bringing MUCHINA as a source ??? The greatest Russian conspiracy theorist and debunker of myths? Which only feeds on this bread, debunking flights to the moon, etc.?

[T80UM1]

What sources do you bring? Completely Anglo-German? Which need to reduce the fear of their pilots (English), and to justify the defeat in 2 WWII (German)?

[Pimply]

I do not bring Mukhin

[T80UM1]

And for me your sources, how for you Mukhin and what?

[Pimply]

I have historians. You have a conspiracy theorist. Who is he by profession? Metallurgist?

http://lurkmore.to/%D0%AE%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%9C%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%BD

For serious scientists such articles are not written in Lurka, forgive me.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

I do not bring Mukhin

you to begin to disprove it.
you love REAL numbers.
here and demonstrate an UNBEARED approach.

[Pimply]

To refute lies and fabrications? Sorry, ignoring ignorance is pointless. Serious historians have gone through a hundred times over all of Mukha’s writings. And he is still revered as a great scientist by people who are close to his inventions and conspiracy theology.

Have you stopped drinking cognac in the morning? Answer only yes or no. This is from the same opera.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Serious historians have gone through a hundred times over all of Mukha’s writings.

indicate which figures they gave, what arguments.
otherwise your "walked a hundred times already" looks like "all progressive humanity"

[aviator_IAS]

Quote: Pimply

and trying to remember real heroes

You certainly won’t get this from you.

[pensioner]

Was this a feat?
Yes, it was generally a miracle.
When the thin-line division of recruits who lacked ammunition for a long time stopped at times a superior experienced enemy. And those recruits who, under a terrible onslaught, retreated on one day, firmly held their positions for the next.

And the Germans wanted to make these people slaves ??

[Iraclius]

Yes, the thin red line. Soviet version.
Eternal memory to the heroes! The film crew - good luck. Critics want to shut up their mouths in advance and walk in the woods - criticize Mikhalkov of All Russia.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Iraclius

Yes, the thin red line. Soviet version.

Since the Crimean War, this phrase has received a second meaning. The line separating consciousness from madness. And it was in this meaning that it was used by the novelist James Jones, and then the creators of the Hollywood movie of the same name.
So be careful with this

[Iraclius]

I mean solely as an allegory of unwavering stamina and heroic defense of the last forces.
Balaclava battle. 1854 year. The 93-th Scottish infantry regiment of the Highlanders holds the defense against the Russian Cossack and Hussar detachment. The Scots are commanded by Major General Campbell, who, as you know, told his soldiers: “There will be no order to leave, guys. You must die where you stand. ” A detachment of Scots in red uniforms is very stretched along the front, which is why it seemed to turn into a thin red line.

Year 1941. The soldiers of the 316th Infantry Division (subsequently the 8th Guards), under the command of Major General Ivan Vasilievich Panfilov, hold the defenses near Moscow, with incredible effort restraining the hordes of Nazis.
Political instructor Klochkov addresses his fighters: “Russia is great, but nowhere to retreat!”
Soldiers of the 4th company of the 2th battalion of the 1075th rifle regiment ... Fighters of the Red Army ... A thin red line ...
So neat?

[Rider]

Quote: Iraclius

The Scots are commanded by Major General Campbell, who, as you know, told his soldiers: “There will be no order to leave, guys. You must die where you stand. ”

and now you can ask Lopatov and Gakhpykh to TRUE describe this battle.

and then Suddenly there was a scout who there Campbell didn’t say such words, because they didn’t hear them because of the shooting, and the Scots didn’t make them out because of the okcentent.

It's interesting how in England they will react to these RESEARCHES OF THE HISTORICAL TRUTH.

[Gahprom]

and now you can ask Lopatov and Gakhpykh to TRUE describe this battle.

and make a movie with folk money ??

[Rider]

Quote: Gahpro

and make a movie with folk money ??

you first come forward with revelations.

and you’re always happy about your own people.

[Gahprom]

you first come forward with revelations.

and you’re always happy about your own people.

you still dare, but it’s still the Stalin prosecutor’s office tried to plant, but to take off the GSS

[Rider]

Quote: Gahpro

you still dare, but it's Stalin’s prosecutor’s office

very well.

and yet how about researching and exposing Campbell myths?

[Iraclius]

If the script will be written with the participation of the people, then why not?
I am sure that your opinions with Lopatov and Pupyrchaty will not be heard.

[Gahprom]

Quote: Iraclius

If the script will be written with the participation of the people, then why not?
I am sure that your opinions with Lopatov and Pupyrchaty will not be heard.

I am happy for you, one also shot a movie for the people, and also used only proven material, and then sailing tanks, shoot the sequel until you were thrown))

[Iraclius]

And you would go out on the 9 of May, go up to the veterans and tell them that there was no 28 Panfilov’s feat. Our old people are still strong, they would have painted your face. And if health is already gone, then they would have spat for sure. Good luck, truth-seeker, I will not wish! Scroll further.

[Lopatov]

Are you sure about that?

[Iraclius]

At 100%. All the veterans that I know personally would definitely give. Or they spat.

[Rider]

Quote: Spade

Are you sure about that?

and you check.

[Lopatov]

Unfortunately, this will not work. Those who fought on the front lines have long been dead.

[Rider]

Quote: Spade

Those who fought on the front lines have long been dead.

Excuse me, but who is going to squares and parks on 9may?

fighters of the Tashkent front?

Something you did not get there.

[Pimply]

You know how many fake veterans are in parades now?

[Lopatov]

Rear officers, sons of regiments, pilots, sailors.

[Rider]

something is definitely not pulling you there.
I PERSONALLY know three EXACTLY FRONTERS.
and you see not there and not those you are looking for.

[Lopatov]

And what, rear officers can not be front-line soldiers?

[Rider]

But what are all the front-line soldiers-rear officers?

[IRBIS]

Quote: Rider

Excuse me, but who is going to squares and parks on 9may?

fighters of the Tashkent front?

Sorry to interfere. Pay attention to the chest of the congregation. Talk (only without enthusiastic ecstasy) with them and you will understand that the overwhelming majority of them did not even see the front line through binoculars. To our great regret, only a few true front-line soldiers remained for a huge cohort of "followers".
The same applies to the "participants" of all kinds of wars that took place in the not too distant past.

[Rider]

Quote: IRBIS

and you will understand that the vast majority of them did not even see the advanced with binoculars.

I seem to say that in LIVING I know three REALLY fought.
and if you are looking for torpedoes on the Kulikovo field, you will find them.

Quote: IRBIS

The same applies to "participants" of all kinds of wars,

??

[Pimply]

What are the real warriors for you?

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

What are the real warriors for you?

for me this is a man sitting in trenches, having been under fire, going on the attack, and wandering in retreats.


and for you ?

[pensioner]

I don’t know if it’s worth it ...
My uncle Zvezdin Ivan ... (Dmitrievich seems to have forgotten to his shame ...) 1917 b. Passed everything possible from 39 to 45 + with Japan. Wounded several times. On this basis, he and Aunt Nadia did not have children. I didn't go to any meetings in Perm, but about them I said: "I don't want to look at these clowns ...". Like this. He died in 2008, in January ...

[Lopatov]

You cannot build patriotic education on the foundation of outright lies. Revealed even under Stalin. It will do great harm.

[T80UM1]

Germans and Anglo-Squires, Chinese and Japanese are not embarrassed, for example, in the States - betman and superman are heroes, some believe sincerely that they exist, some believe that captain America existed, and their patriotic upbringing does not suffer from this lie ...

[Pimply]

Quote: T80UM1

Betman and Superman are heroes, some sincerely believe that they exist, some believe that Captain America existed, and their patriotic upbringing does not seem to suffer from this lie ...

Tell me, what nonsense are you talking about right now?

[T80UM1]

I mean, why the Germans can believe in their pseudo-heroes, the amers can believe in their fictional heroes, and only you can’t see us, all sorts of citizens appear with foam at the mouth proving that this can’t be done.

[Iraclius]

Why such confidence in the veracity of the results of the work of the official commission. How do you know about the real goals they pursued?
Why do you need to believe the first public statements about the alleged forgery, dating back to 1966 year? How is it certain that Krivitsky was not forced to lie, that supposedly it was his invention? Why did they immediately unconditionally accept the point of view that there was no battle and feat?

[Lopatov]

The survivors of the GSS posthumously clearly testify to this. At least 9 people.

[Igarr]

Hello to all...
Brothers, at least someone can explain clearly.
How so? There is nothing to defend, the line is stretched 5 times more than the norm.
No subversive training. The recruits are the same.
What kept the Fritz?
The question is not what was kept or not. Uniquely kept!
The question is - due to which they kept?
After all, it would never occur to anyone that tanks were being cut by sapper shovels and infantry was driven away by bottles with cops?
So there was something that did not allow the Germans to take and insolently come "to the front".
WHY did they Germans also retreat?
".. But Panfilov's division held out. The 2nd battalion also held out for long, impossibly long hours. The first blow of the Germans repulsed... With the second blow, the German tank division crushed the battalion. But the units withdrew in battles, with terrible losses, but delaying the enemy ... "
Not a word about the DRAP ... Crumpled, every sixth - walked away..and continued to scare him to death .... an army with two years of experience in maintaining a database, as they like to say. Continued - Wehrmacht tank scare!
WHAT?
And how, after this, to relate to the Wehrmacht? How to a bunch of pussies?

[T80UM1]

5 times more than the standard is stretched, but the Mozhaiskaya defense line, a kind of fortified area, 195 guns per 41 km - this is about 5 guns per km. A little, but it is possible not to defend linearly, but in those places where they are advancing, the art of fighters and commanders in time to determine the place of the main attack and concentrate the main number of trunks and people there. Do you understand it?

[Igarr]

No, it’s not clear.
I go from the text of the article - every sixth survived.
It means that we are sitting in the trench and we see that 10 people were killed around us. Our own, with whom I just lit a cigarette.
If we are gunners, two cannons aren’t firing already.
But we are sitting.
Or we get up and leave for our own. We walked 50 meters, lay down again and let's shoot at the Germans.
The boundary is already stretched 30 times. And we are shooting.
How should the Germans feel? What should they think about us?
Why are we .... unlike all the other warriors in the world - we do not raise our paws up, but continue to fight in those conditions when it is already impossible to fight?
...
And not stupid minuses we put - from inability to read?
..
PS .. this quality is not only inherent in us. On the whole. But only with us did it manifest itself - massively.
So I would like to know - why?

[T80UM1]

In general - this is the second attack on the division in November, I don’t remember exactly where I read, but when one part of the division was defending, the other part was advancing (the regiment was led by B. Momyshuly) in cooperation with other parts of the Red Army. the Germans were seduced and weakened the pressure to repel a flank strike.

[Igarr]

Especially.
The offensive is possible with a minimal superiority of 3: 1. What we see on the example of the Germans.
Our recruits are a rod against the Germans in violation of all instructions and other things.
But, surely, Germans' intelligence knew everything — both that they were not fired, and that the new recruits, and that they had just arrived, so they did not manage to establish interaction.
Instead, the Panfilov Germans settled.
...
They were fed something special? They smoked something special? Or was it vodka?
...
Those were the boys. Even, perhaps, they have not kissed even once.
And - right away - in an embrace with Death.
Frost on the skin.

[Hort]

Well, if you start from the book "Volokolamsk Highway" (just about Momysh-uly, though I have already forgotten who he was - the commissars or the battalion commander), then there were not such recruits there. At least, even in Kazakhstan, they learned to shoot a little and managed to act harmoniously. Plus there was iron discipline (before the first battles, those who panicked were shot without sentimentality).

[Flooding]

Quote: hort

just about Momysh-uly, though I already forgot who he was - comrades or battalion commander

He commanded a battalion.

[Marek Rozny]

Quote: Flood

He commanded a battalion.

A month after arriving at the front, Bauyrzhan Momyshuly became a regiment. At the same time, he was with lieutenant stars. In 1944 he received the rank of colonel and commanded a division.

[Beck]

Quote: Marek Rozny

A month after arriving at the front, Bauyrzhan Momyshuly became a regiment.

I will supplement the characteristic of Baurzhan. For the fights near Moscow they wanted to introduce him to the Hero. But they could not because of Smersh. After his battalion left the encirclement, Smersh took up it - for arbitrariness and abuse of authority. Since Baurzhan personally, before the formation of the battalion, without a tribunal, he shot two fighters who fled from the battlefield.

Carried, but also to the Hero was not presented.

[T80UM1]

As for the quality of fighting then when it is already impossible. Well, this upbringing is such a character, national traits, a property of the people. Remember the attack of the dead in World War I, or Stalingrad. When the people and the army are united with the government and their politics, probably also a strong factor.

[Igarr]

But this is the ANSWER.
"..When the people and the army are united with the government .." !!!!!

[Yegorchik]

T 80 is a rhetorical question.

[PSih2097]

Quote: Igarr

Why are we .... unlike all the other warriors in the world - we do not raise our paws up, but continue to fight in those conditions when it is already impossible to fight?

And so it has always been for centuries.

[T80UM1]

Colonel General Erich Gepner, who commanded the 4th Panzer Group, whose striking forces were defeated in battles with the 8th Guards Division (316), calls it in his reports to the commander of the Center group Fedor von Bock - “the wild division fighting in violation of all charters and rules of warfare, the soldiers of which do not surrender, are extremely fanatical and not afraid of death. "

[Beck]

In my youth I studied at school No. 19 in Almaty. During the war, the headquarters of the formed 316 division was located in the school building. In one of the classes, a museum of the division was created by students and teachers. And then this division did not fall out of my sight.

Those people who now deny the Panfilov’s feat are walking up the hill, wanting to point a finger at the history of the Second World War. I will say something that I learned, and not only during my school years.

There was no platoon battle of Panfilov’s soldiers with 50 German tanks - this is not real. There was a FIRM battle and how many tanks the advancing fascists had was unknown. The battle was fierce, the Germans repelled the attack. Repelled with great losses. And this is a feat.

Propaganda during the war is a sacred affair. After this company battle, a correspondent appeared in the division, from Moscow. At headquarters, he was advised to cover the HEROIC company battle. Having taken the data and maybe having talked with someone, the correspondent left. In Moscow, in the heat of patriotism and propaganda, which should be present in such articles, and even at a dashing time, the correspondent turned the ROYAL battle into a PLATFORM, and the number of German tanks was added to 50. The article was published.

At the headquarters of the Supreme Commander, this article was accepted in its entirety. And an order was sent to the headquarters of the division 316 to inform the names of the soldiers of the deceased platoon to grant them the titles of Heroes posthumously. From the division they replied that there was a company battle, not a platoon, but the flywheel of the wheels of the military mechanism was already spinning - how can it not be, are you there ??? Then the leadership of the division called 28 names (platoon) of the dead soldiers of that particular company and that of the same company battle, although there were much more victims in that battle. But they did not inspect, four out of 28 were not killed, and were in hospitals with wounds. These are Shemyakin, Likhobaba and two more surnames of which I do not remember.

This is where all the obscurity comes from. But the battle was not platoon, but company. And the feat was and not only the company, but the whole division. Because - GREAT RUSSIA, AND NEVER HERE TO GO BACK - MOSCOW BEHIND. The words of political instructor Klochkov, and possibly added to Klochkov as a correspondent. But this does not change the essence of the dedication of the fighters.

[uhu189]

You are right, miracles do not happen, if you stretch the division evenly over 41 km, then of course you would have broken through its defense right away. They maneuvered reserves very competently, the Germans by that time were far from full-blooded divisions, ours occupied combat positions prepared in the engineering plan (managed to occupy the defense line), actively mined tank-dangerous directions, created blockages, making it difficult for the Germans to maneuver, plus all the same air support from our aviation at that moment was. Well and most importantly - the fighting spirit was huge, there was a desire to win and not let the Germans to Moscow. As a result, they acted in defense beyond all praise - forged superior enemy forces, inflicted significant losses on him and retained combat effectiveness

[Corsair]

Quote: Igarr

But we are sitting.

They clearly explained+

[avt]

Quote: Igarr

The question is - at what expense did they keep it?

In addition to unparalleled courage and heroism due to competent tactical actions. They did not hold the whole front, but the directions. In winter, you can get around the hell of the road with the then German equipment, even on the Minsk highway, the remains of the trenches are still closer to the highway, but there are already no more to the left and to the right of such in the forest. By the way, near Yukhnov, 200 Storchak paratroopers, without artillery at all, kept the road to the approach of the Podolsk artillery cadets. Article plus, it is absolutely necessary at the present time to remind of the ACTION!

[Igarr]

So it turns out - an interesting conclusion.
In addition to courage, heroism, competent tactical actions - there is also luck. Luck.
For once, the Wehrmacht had a great success - to crush the Red Army in border battles.
But, until December, they could not do anything. To implement.
200 paratroopers hold a group of Guderian. Podolsk cadets put an end .. on Guderian himself. After the fall of 1941, he choked and went there ... rummaging around in the rear.
...
But what if God is with us? And if with us - Madam Luck?
Who is against us?

[MakSim51ru]

That's right, there is no solid front, but there are separate fortified points: settlements, road crossings, heights. And competent fire control. The benefit of the guns attached. And you can’t get around bypassing and you won’t leave behind you.

[Beck]

Quote: avt

They did not hold the whole front, but the directions.

I completely agree. General Panfilov first used this tactic. There were no forces on the solid front line. Roads, road junctions, and important settlements were saddled by outposts. The first "outpost" accepted the battle when it was already exhausted and was withdrawn, but behind it on the road there was already another "outpost".

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Igarr

The question is - at what expense did they keep it?

Read the book by Alexander Bek "Volokolamsk highway". The book was written based on the results of conversations with Bauyrzhan Momysh-uly, the battalion commander of the 1073 Talgar Rifle Regiment of the 316th Rifle Division. Although it is artistic, it can give an answer to your question.

[kazssr]

if they don’t betray me, then this book is taught at the academy entirely.

[Gahprom]

Read the book by Alexander Bek "Volokolamsk highway".

I’m not filming this book of filmmakers, for some reason ...
maybe because PR at "28" is cooler? And here you have to work, study
a decent book

[Beck]

Quote: Rakti-Kali

Read the book by Alexander Bek "Volokolamsk highway". The book was written based on the results of conversations with Bauyrzhan Momysh-uly, the battalion commander of the 1073 Talgar Rifle Regiment of the 316th Rifle Division.

I will light up a little the battalion of Baurzhan Momysh-ula.

During the formation of the division, in Almaty, Baurzhan led his battalion for planned firing, out of town. When the targets were set Baurzhan came up with the idea to give all the battalion on the TALP targets. As I thought and ordered. A salvo was fired (about 700 rifles) and the battalion was left without targets, scattered into smithereens.

Near Moscow, the Baurzhan’s battalion was cut off and out of the woods. It was necessary to cross the road, but German troops and cars moved along it in an endless stream. Baurzhan built a battalion with a rhombus, in the middle of a convoy, and of course the two rear sides of the rhombus could not shoot directly in the direction of travel, but they could shoot at an angle to the road, increasing the fired line of the road.

The battalion rhombus moved out of the forest and began to cross the road giving volleys of battalion fire. Shreds flew from the Nazi soldiers, chips from motor vehicles. Crossing the road, the battalion continued to give volleys until it went deep into the forest. Somewhere on a kilometer stretch of road corpses and wrecked cars of fascist troops were smoking.

[Homeless]

Thank you for the article!

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

The author is a big plus and my deep respect. I wrote everything absolutely correctly.
When I come across another miracle on the Internet with the letter "m" starting to tear his throat about the invention of the feat of the Panfilovites, I always answer one thing - the correspondent is really an inventor. He said that there were only 28 Panfilovites there. And there the whole division was Panfilov, they fought like this, in such conditions, and against such an enemy as no one dreamed of.
You show me who, NU WHO in the 1939 - 1941 year could withstand the blow of the Wehrmacht tank division? Poles? These people seem to have the best result for three days, despite the fact that the Polish soldiers fought on equal footing and sat in the fortress themselves. French people? It’s not funny at all, they lost the whole war in less time than the Panfilov’s defended. The British? Whom Rommel in the Desert with much less power slipper drove?
And here - the regiment against the division, the division against three - and held on and beat the enemy! They are heroes. Everything.
And we ... one miracle with the letter "m" "a great film about the great war" removes, the second - the feat of Panfilov's disgrace, the third - the losses of the USSR in the second world are hundreds of millions ...

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

The British? Whom Rommel in the Desert with much less power slipper drove?

Well, what are you? In Africa, the fate of WWII was decided, in Africa, on Sicily, and even a few atolls in the Pacific Ocean.

[Turkish Granite]

I am not very much interested in the latest historical research of liberal "truth-tellers", I was taught at school, in history lessons and at meetings with veterans that there were Panfilovites and their feat was immortal, so that's how it was.

[Yegorchik]

Yes, actually nikher these studies do not prove. just trying to slander our story.

[Pimply]

That is, you prefer to forget the real Panfilovites and believe in fictional?

[Yegorchik]

That's why they became fictitious. Did these people fight in the 316th division? Fought. Did they fight heroically and almost all died? Yes again. It is impossible to bury all the dead in 1941 at the Kremlin wall, therefore there is a grave of an unknown soldier, it symbolizes those who are worth The Germans stopped their lives. So here 28 Panfilov’s men are the quintessence of the memory of the entire division that performed the miracle. And the fact that you’re building a truth seeker here is not worth anything, your attempts to prove that there weren’t 28 Panfilov’s under Dubosekovo lodges uh That’s for sure. The defense of the division was not whole, and even 4 companies could be divided into separate centers of resistance, how many were there, how you fought, not you, I don’t know, but your attempt to prove that it wasn’t just a chatter. so that their battle looks like that and it is our right.

[omsbon]

Good people want to make a good film about the EXPERIENCE of Soviet people!
Honor and praise!
Let's help them! To which account to transfer money? There is only one condition, the script must be published in order to know what we are paying for.

[Rider]

Quote: omsbon

Let's help them! To which account to transfer money?

strongly support!

if anyone is in the know, post the address to contact.

I have both grandfathers 310s.d.
formed in the Kazakh SSR Akmolinsk (now Astana)

Northwestern front Sinyavinsky heights, Neva Piglet.
one in 42g, the second in breaking the blockade in 44g.

let it be in memory of them.

[omsbon]

Quote: Rider

Nevsky Piglet.
one in 42g, the second in breaking the blockade in 44g.

Alexander! Today at 16 o'clock I am taking guests who have come to me to the Nevsky Piglet and to the diorama "Breaking the Siege of Leningrad".
In memory of your grandfathers I will put flowers at the obelisks.

PS There was no northwestern front; there were the Leningrad and Volkhov fronts.

[Rider]

Quote: omsbon

In memory of your grandfathers I will put flowers at the obelisks.

thank you very much !

Quote: omsbon

PS There was no northwestern front; there were the Leningrad and Volkhov fronts

Yes, I indicated it as a direction.
Thank you for the amendment and your participation.

[omsbon]

I’ll come home, I’ll report!

[omsbon]

Quote: Rider

In memory of your grandfathers I will put flowers at the obelisks.

Dear Alexander!
Very ashamed, but did not get into one of the planned places. We went with the children, got into two terrible traffic jams in the city and another repair of the bridge across the Neva. The children were different, my guests asked to return.
I will certainly fulfill my promise, do not worry. Sorry again!

[Rider]

Quote: omsbon

Dont worry. Sorry again!

I'm not in a claim.

Thanks for the effort.

for memory.

shake your hand.

[omsbon]

Quote: Rider

shake your hand.

Mutually!
I will fulfill the promise.
Good night.

[omsbon]

Dear Alexander!
The promise is fulfilled.
In memory of your two grandfathers, on the Nevsky Piglet, these icon lamps burn!
With all respect, Andrew.

[omsbon]

This is a chapel on the Nevsky Piglet.

[Yarbay]

Quote: omsbon

Dear Alexander!
Very ashamed, but did not get into one of the planned places. We went with the children, got into two terrible traffic jams in the city and another repair of the bridge across the Neva. The children were different, my guests asked to return.
I will certainly fulfill my promise, do not worry. Sorry again!

I am proud to meet you!
I sincerely wish you all the help of the Almighty !!

[RA77]

Quote: omsbon

Let's help them! To which account to transfer money?

Quote: Rider

if anyone is in the know, post the address to contact.

This topic has already been covered on topwar:
http://topwar.ru/29756-piterskaya-nezavisimaya-studiya-pod-rukovodstvom-andreya-
shalopy-snimaet-film-pro-podvig-28-panfilovcev.html

Here is a link to the site where you can transfer money:
http://boomstarter.ru/projects/36881/28_panfilovtsev

[Stiletto]

It's not a matter of numbers - 28, 27, 30, but the feat of our soldiers. How many of them died - nameless, unaccounted for? And what - did their step into eternity fade from this?

[JIaIIoTb]

Was this a feat?

Yes, it was a miracle!
And that's it.

[sapsan14]

This is a feat that is impossible in essence ... Anyone who sees a live enemy going to attack will understand ... No matter how many of our guys were, in that war, the inner human spirit fought. They fought not with weapons, but with hearts, feelings, love for the family, the Motherland ... Look into the eyes of our ancestors: bright, without malice (although everyone has a heart stone) ... It was impossible to defeat them ...
Always showing to my sons

[T80UM1]

By the way, the work of B. Vasiliev "Was not listed in the lists" is a masterpiece, but the film adaptation falls short.

[sapsan14]

it's already 95. Unfortunately, it is no longer the USSR. The book is strong - I admit it. The film, of course, is not an Oscar, but for me two moments are indicative here: the selfless "everyday" heroism of the Russian soldier and the words of Ev.ey: go surrender - you will be killed anyway, but we will live ...

[Lopatov]

I don’t know ... Why is this beautiful legend, when there is a real Panfilov division. Which was practically not provided either by artillery or PTR. And this division did not stop anyhow anyone, but the 2nd Panzer. The best tank division of the Wehrmacht. Which was created and trained by Guderian himself, practically the main German theoretician of the use of tank troops.

[Bronis]

Quote: Spade

I don’t know ... Why is this beautiful legend, when there is a real Panfilov division.

At that time, this "legend" was needed. And we need it urgently. In the days when everything was decided, it was quite justified. Moreover, the story is real, only with different factual circumstances. After the war, by the way, Krivitsky was interrogated about this (the authorities wanted to describe everything exactly). And even then they came to the conclusion that the specific circumstances did not correspond to the newspaper ones. The story with the same Dobrobaba is very muddy ...
But this does not change the alignment. I see no reason to prove something to anyone. Now they love to tear some throats. Yeah! not 28! Not all Russians! And the tanks are not 50!
They would be in that meat grinder ... We can dig to the truth, study materials. But we have no moral right to mock it. If there weren’t those people and their self-sacrifice, we wouldn’t discuss the numbers now ...

[Lopatov]

And I am against replacing the real feat of the Panfilov division with a beautiful fairy tale. Then she might have been needed, but not now.

[Gahprom]

quietly, the so-called patriots zaminusuyu.
they don’t like to think, it’s inconvenient for them to learn the history of their country, they believe in fairy tales about 28 and absolutely, not one knows about Panfilov’s division and its feat))
let them give money, they will throw it anyway, 100% is a "trust" divorce

[Lopatov]

Yes, let them at least be minuscule. I know that everything was much tougher, worse and more heroic than in a bast picture about 28 people.

[Gahprom]

and I know, because I love and study the history of my country, and I write squeals and slogans.

[seafarer]

Quote: Gahpro

and I know, because I love and study the history of my country, and I write squeals and slogans.

So write yourself, if you know, about the feat of 316 sd fighters! Write no lubok - the truth!
Only this is more difficult to do than to "minus" the opponent.

[Pimply]

This is what we are talking about. Here, popular bread is sweeter than real people, who drank victory with blood, real blood, not fictitious.

[Bronis]

Quote: Spade

And I am against replacing the real feat of the Panfilov division with a beautiful fairy tale.

Yes, it's not a replacement. 70 years have passed, no need to break the spears. History must be treated calmly and with respect. Yes, it was different. Denying this is stupid. There is evidence for that. Well and full
Well, what about substitutions for "fairy tales". In most cases, the tale becomes, as they say now, a trash. You yourself see how they try to distort history. In the USSR, they painted a "popular print". There were political reasons for this. In general, this is characteristic not only of the USSR but also of all countries in general. Well, the leaders could not say then that they allowed the catastrophe of 1941, made such monstrous losses ... it would be panic and a catastrophe - an inevitable loss. People needed to be given hope ... And after the war - who will admit their mistakes ... politics again. Now it is also politics. Most of the grand-eating historians do not care what Dubosekov had. They are not worried about the truth, but about money and their inner megalomania.
A trivial example. Thesis "Stalin is guilty of 30 million victims of WWII". As a leader - to a very large extent - yes, although he is not alone, but management as a whole. The actions of the leadership led to the occupation of a huge territory of the USSR, but the Germans were exterminating the population there ...
So here too "Panfilov's men were not 28" - "There were no German tanks" - "The division did not exist" - etc. That is why any action creates opposition ...

[Pimply]

This is exactly what we are talking about. Blind faith in the 28 Panfilov’s heroized is a betrayal of the memory of the real Panfilov’s.

[Gahprom]

This is exactly what we are talking about. Blind faith in the 28 Panfilov’s heroized is a betrayal of the memory of the real Panfilov’s.

100%
but not all screechers understand this, wait for the cons.))

[Pimply]

Afraid of the Munus - do not go to Topwar 8)

[Bronis]

Quote: Pimply

Afraid of the Munus - do not go to Topwar 8)

Sorry, add: ... not hiding nationality!))

[ultra]

Quote: Bronis

. without hiding nationality!))

Do you minus this?

[Bronis]

Yes, rather, plus! In general, the pros and cons are conditional and mostly meaningless.

[ultra]

Quote: Pimply

Afraid of the Munus - do not go to Topwar 8)

[ultra]

Quote: Gahpro

all screeches understand this, wait for the cons.))

So much for the minus! For disrespect for the interlocutors!

[Gahprom]

So much for the minus! For disrespect for the interlocutors!

mutually, minus is a weakness, when there is nothing to say except a slogan, there remains a minus

[ultra]

Quote: Gahpro

when to say nothing but a slogan, there remains a minus

You still didn’t understand why I minus you! And you’re trying to send them to the library! As for your slogans, I don’t do this, I almost never minus for the position, but always for rudeness!

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Gahpro

but not all screechers understand this, wait for the cons.))

You insert comments about minuses through a comment, implicitly run into pluses?

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Everything would be fine, but for some reason, subversive authors usually write that the exploit of the 28 Panfilov’s is a fiction, but for some reason they don’t write about the heroic combat path of the Panfilov’s division. Why do you think so?
And, yes, can a question not connected with Panfilov’s be possible? Why is it that in a well-known photograph of Americans raising a flag over captured Iwo Jima, it is not written anywhere that the frame is staged? What actually flag was set by a different and completely different fighters earlier?

[Gahprom]

Everything would be fine, but for some reason, subversive authors usually write that the exploit of the 28 Panfilov’s is a fiction, but for some reason they don’t write about the heroic combat path of the Panfilov’s division. Why do you think so?

because as it is said more than, you go to the library (this is where the books are kept) and ask for this period.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Gahpro

because as it is said more than, you go to the library (this is where the books are kept) and ask for this period.

I do not ask you what is written in the books, for I have some reason to suppose that I know that they write a little more than you. I ask about numerous online publications refuting the Panfilov’s 28 feat but not saying anything about the valor of the Panfilov’s division.

[Pimply]

Give publications.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

http://hedrook.vho.org/library/panfil.htm
http://www.topsecretz.net/blog/histori/122.html
http://historylost.ru/articles/destiny/748-28-panfilovcev-vechnaya-slava-pavshim
-vyzhivshim.html - through this link, the feat of the other Panfilov’s as it were mentioned ... in this form

The opinion of historians is as follows: indeed, the soldiers of the Panfilov’s division showed heroism by delaying the advance of tanks for four hours and allowing the command to pull up troops for a decisive battle.

[Pimply]

What does it mean - it’s not written anywhere? It was written everywhere, a film about this was shot, and the fact that the photo is not a photograph of raising the first flag was explained almost immediately. Moreover, the photo is not staged. The soldiers simply removed one flag, which the general wanted to keep, and replaced it with another. This is the moment from which Rosenthal captured.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Pimply

What does it mean - it’s not written anywhere? Written everywhere

Everywhere - where is this, sorry? Remind Russian-speaking sources, if not difficult

[Pimply]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Everywhere - where is this, sorry? Remind Russian-speaking sources, if not difficult

And why Russian-speaking? Let's start with the originals

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq87-3l.htm
http://www.ap.org/pages/about/pulitzer/rosenthal.html

http://www.netlore.ru/iwojima_flag
http://waralbum.ru/5098/

In general - write Flag hoisting over Iwo Jima. You are waiting for surprises.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

In general - write Flag hoisting over Iwo Jima. You are waiting for surprises.

however, mind you, no one is trying to talk about this topic, no one is publishing stories on TV.
Do not try to comb to the blood.

and I’m almost sure that with the education there, ONE KNOWS.
but try to debunk the "myth" so easily you will get a turnip.

and for the cause.
with national pride you need to be more careful.

[Pimply]

How do you know? There is a film that is dedicated to this event, there are documentaries - and not one - you claim that no one is replicating. And who is replicating in Russia?

[Lopatov]

They do not "rock it" They are corny telling the truth.

[Rider]

Quote: Spade

They are corny truth.

I will answer both you and Eugene.

they REALLY tell the truth, but do so without tearing the COVER RIPPERS.
Now take the same film about the flag on Iwo Jima, did the filmmakers focus on this?
no, of course, in the center of the narrative is the heroism and dedication of the American soldiers of sailors and marines.
why when it comes to our history. require DOCUMENTAL accuracy?

Why is it easier to debunk the "myth" than to find it in the archives and publish the feat of unknown heroes?
maybe because now they don’t pay for heroes, but pay just for debunking?

[Pimply]

No, they want to cut the dough on myth and pseudo-patriotism

[Lopatov]

Now I'm watching the dock. a film about the counterattack in the Ardennes. American. Everything is fair. And the fact that Eisenhower believed in its beginning only the next day. That because of the disagreement of Patton and Bradley, the 101st airborne assault suffered unjustified losses.

[Rider]

Quote: Spade

doc a film about the counterattack in the Ardennes. American. Everything is fair.

Yes, the fact of the matter is that NOT EVERYTHING is honest.
I also watched the discovery, where the failure in the Ardennes is called "a coup that knocked out the tanks from the Germans"
and the landing of 101 "decisive factors2 allowed to gnaw through the defense of the coast.

so do not show their mass media "guardians of the crystal historical truth"

and what are they shooting about the eastern front ...

[Snoop]

What for? In fact, hoisting the flag over Iwo Jima is just an image for the American people, the image of their grandfathers defeating the Japanese, just as 28 Panfilov’s are the image of those fighters and commanders of the spacecraft standing to death near Moscow.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Well, you answered my second question. Thank. First left

[Pimply]

He answered the first one. It’s easier to find material about the flag with the mention that this was not the first whirling than without it. So go ahead.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Pimply

He answered the first one.

The first question was

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Everything would be fine, but for some reason, subversive authors usually write that the exploit of the 28 Panfilov’s is a fiction, but for some reason they don’t write about the heroic combat path of the Panfilov’s division. Why do you think so?

This is if forgotten

[Pimply]

Give examples, plz.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Cited above

[Lopatov]

Here I am about that. There was generally something beyond the limits. The 1075th SP lost in this battle more than a third of its full-time, the ratio of killed to wounded is four to one. That is, they simply froze to death due to the impossibility of evacuation.
And in such conditions they stopped the Germans.

Instead, we are offered lubok.

[Gahprom]

Instead, we are offered lubok.

we are not entirely offered lubok, we are offered Samopiar, on a hackneyed topic, playing on the feelings of people tired of slag, this is marketing and divorce, clean water.

[Bronis]

Yes, let them take off, if they take off. Ships on the video, the authors were inspired by the 300 Spartans ... The art picture is not a historical study. I looked at Mikhalkov’s paintings - oh, dear mother ... I need to balance

[Gahprom]

I looked at Mikhalkov’s paintings - oh, dear mother ... I need to balance

counterbalance shit?
Who said that the expectations would come true? Someone saw what the author had done before? Can Belarusians give a rent?

[Bronis]

Quote: Gahpro

counterbalance shit?

Well, they didn’t take it off, but they called it crap, sorry.
I won’t wait for Mikhalkov’s opuses for 5 years ... I didn’t call names ... I tasted this miracle of cinema ... for sure ... it, darling ... Only then did I begin to stigmatize.
In the meantime, I do not believe much in the project ... for various reasons.

[ultra]

Quote: Pimply

Blind faith in the 28 Panfilov’s heroized is a betrayal of the memory of the real Panfilov’s.

Complete nonsense! Firstly, there is no blind faith, and secondly, the glorification of some is not a betrayal of others!

[Gahprom]

Complete nonsense! Firstly, there is no blind faith, and secondly, the glorification of some is not a betrayal of others!

vskidku, without Google are you able to talk about the entire military way of the division? I doubt, and even if you can, how many people like you?

[Pimply]

Just there. There is a heroization of the myth. And ignoring reality.

[ultra]

Quote: Pimply

There is a heroization of the myth. And ignoring reality.

Are you talking about "Private Ryan" or about how our overseas "friends" "saved" the world (including you and me) from Nazism?

[Pimply]

Private Ryan does not declare that he was shot on real events.

[ultra]

I’m afraid the American citizen does not suspect about this (how much more about that)! As far as fooling the US population is concerned, there are no equal!

[Begemot]

I would have looked at some kind of bribe that would have allowed myself to pour slop on the heroes of the war that year in 1970, and he or she would be drowned in the toilet. And now you can, anyone can smudge his guano from the memory of the heroes. Liberasty.

[Lopatov]

You would understand the history of the issue. With the materials of the investigation of the SHG and with all other publications of the Soviet era. Not everything is as simple as you think. And the first to raise this question in 1947 were not some "liberals"

[Rider]

Quote: Spade

Would you sort out the history of the issue

so what lopatov?
Well, you are an intelligent person, you are well aware of WHO is sticking it out NOW, and it is beneficial for WHOM to smear our history with black paint.
Well, let them whitewash them, they say for the truth, for historical justice.

from THEIR truths pulls.

these would be truth-cutters, but an ice pick on the head.

[Gahprom]

so what lopatov?
Well, you are an intelligent person, you are well aware of WHO is sticking it out NOW, and it is beneficial for WHOM to smear our history with black paint.
Well, let them whitewash them, they say for the truth, for historical justice.

from THEIR truths pulls.

these would be truth-cutters, but an ice pick on the head.

Who pays Isaev? Rezun probably
who pays Dukov? probably the Baltic states ....

[Rider]

Quote: Gahpro

Who pays Isaev?

listen to gah.

you lovers to gut the truth for some reason always with a joyful screech dissect myths with a sign (+)

I’ve never seen anyone like you. undertook to debunk the black myths about the war, or country.

in the branches about all sorts of penal battles, and the detachments you will not find with the exposure of these horror stories.

but when you need to cheat Panfilov’s, or sailor’s, like you appear with enviable consistency.

you really need
well, so she really
war is stink dirt and death
and in medical sambats there is a stench from stool and vomiting, because many of the pain can not restrain themselves.
and many shit after promedol, because the insides relax.

THERE IS IT KONDOVA THE UNDECORATED TRUTH ON THE WAR.
so let's shoot films about it, duplicate Dermo in print.

however, in NORMAL films about the war, they show not this, but daily combat work.
show strength, solidarity, mutual assistance.
furious impulse of attack and tooth grinding of defense.

but give the bowel movements to you.

[Gahprom]

you lovers to gut the truth for some reason always with a joyful screech dissect myths with a sign (+)

I’ve never seen anyone like you. undertook to debunk the black myths about the war, or country.

in the branches about all sorts of penal battles, and the detachments you will not find with the exposure of these horror stories.

but when you need to cheat Panfilov’s, or sailor’s, like you appear with enviable consistency.

Again a conspiracy? Again around the enemy of panic panic? (C)
Listen, screech, each of these historians wrote as much about the history of his country, so many liberal myths debunked, how many SMSes you did not write to your girlfriend.
each of them wrote for 4 days in May, a penal battalion and UG2, and Antirezun, and Antisolonin
And you advocate of morality what you did, scribbled a lot of work on the war, to smear decent people like that?

but give the bowel movements to you.

Did you notice that this topic has not been raised before you? I look, it excites you ...

[Rider]

Quote: Gahpro

Listen, screech, each of these historians wrote as much

Listen to the dirt digger, I read them all.
and I don’t need to cry here in a vest.
hiding behind normal historians and writers.

Quote: Gahpro

Did you notice that this topic has not been raised before you?

Well, you really wanted the truth?
here she is.
naked and without beauty.

just some talk about the feat, while others prefer to see the lobes.

You have already proven that you are sweet.

[Pimply]

Again a conspiracy? Again around the enemy is a panic panic?

[Lopatov]

And who is trying to replace Panfilov’s real feat with a lie revealed back in 1947? I can’t call them patriots. And you?

After all, after the release of such a film, this question will certainly arise in full growth. And instead of a patriotic film, a zilch will come out, which is more likely to do harm. Why do you think this is necessary for those who are now mowing down patriots?

[Rider]

Quote: Spade

And instead of a patriotic film, a zilch will come out, which is more likely to do harm.

the film has not yet been released, no one has even seen the script.

but everyone already KNOW what and how it will be there.

but okay, persuaded, the movie about the war is not nada.

let's confine ourselves to penal battles, weary of conscience, and hunters.
Now it is relevant.

[Gahprom]

the film has not yet been released, no one has even seen the script.

but everyone already KNOW what and how it will be there.

but okay, persuaded, the movie about the war is not nada.

let's confine ourselves to penal battles, weary of conscience, and hunters.
Now it is relevant.

I’m saying, you don’t know anything, unlike you, we talked with the afftor, I learned a lot

[Lopatov]

No need to sing soldier songs. The authors have already written the script. And they spoke unambiguously about the film:

In this battle, the 28 Panfilovs, entrenched near the Dubosekovo junction, stood in the way of the German tank battalion ... And stopped him.
The feat of 28-i Panfilov heroes became one of the brightest symbols of the battle for Moscow.

[Rider]

Quote: Spade

No need to sing soldier songs. The authors have already written the script. And they spoke unambiguously about the film:

In this battle, the 28 Panfilovs, entrenched near the Dubosekovo junction, stood in the way of the German tank battalion ... And stopped him.
The feat of 28-i Panfilov heroes became one of the brightest symbols of the battle for Moscow.

and what, is it BAD?

[Pimply]

Poorly. Because you cannot bring up true patriotism on a lie.

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Poorly. Because you cannot bring up true patriotism on a lie.

Oh really ?
but in America they teach that the Allies won 2MB.
in Israel, that there is no occupation of Palestinian lands, but all this is the original land of the chosen people.
the French are doing their utmost to stamp films about Mackey, and not a word about Charlemagne.

I understand that all this is false patriotism?

recently, the Germans took off about their mamans and dads, and nothing went wrong.
even we went for hire.

and again (already in which)
WHY FOR LIES?
Panfilov’s division fought - fought.
Dubosekov’s battle was - was.
Political instructor Klochkov participated and died - but participated and died heroically.
Is there no survivors of the battle?

Yes, they did not all die, and there were not 28

BUT IS ALL THE FOLLOWING FALSE?

and the fact that you mutter here "ah, everything was wrong, and there. And not with those" - TOTAL STUPIDITY.

[Pimply]

Can you give me exactly what they teach in America? Where does he teach? Who is teaching.

Quote: Rider

WHY FOR LIES?

Because this fight was not. It was different. And you need to learn in schools

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Can you give me exactly what they teach in America? Where does he teach? Who is teaching.

Please enjoy.

“Victory in Europe. Following companies in North Africa and Italy, the Allies opened up the western front against weakened Germans. 6 June 1944 Allied ships with 156 000 soldiers aboard landed in Normandy, the north coast of France. Known as D-Day, the landing in Normandy was the beginning of a massive Allied march to the east. Six months later, the Allied armies reached Germany. After the last attempt to achieve success in December 1944, known as the Battle of the Ardennes, the German army was crushed. Allies declared victory in Europe 8 May 1945. "

taken:http://warfiles.ru/show-7648-kak-prepodnosyat-istoriyu-vtoroy-mirovoy-voyny-v-ss
ha.html

Well, here's what the kids write. GOT KNOWLEDGE BY SUCH TEXTBOOKS.
“Without the USA, the whole world would speak German”
March, 23, 2003
“We must recall from history that millions of people did not want the United States to enter either the Second World War or the First. If we had not entered the First World War, then maybe everyone would have spoken German and there would have been no democracy in the world ... As for the Second World War, while we waited, millions of people died in German camps and the Germans captured a large part of Europe. "
Joseph John Rosengast
North Carolina, United States

“You must not be biased towards the country that saved you from fascism”
March 24, 2003
“You should not be so biased towards a country that saved you from Nazi leadership in World War II and that constantly helps you.”
“It is well known that Russia wants to get Iraqi oil, and this is precisely the reason that Russia is against the war.”
“Communism in Russia died thanks to America, and it cost us dearly”
"LeaderOf XMI"
taken:http://oko-planet.su/oko-planet/politik/politwar/190719-vy-ne-dolzhny-byt-predvz
yaty-k-strane-kotoraya-spasla-vas-ot-fashizma.html

[Beck]

Here, a fellow countryman, I do not agree with the excerpts quoted by you.

Quote: Rider

“Victory in Europe. Following companies in North Africa and Italy, the Allies opened up the western front against weakened Germans. 6 June 1944 Allied ships with 156 000 soldiers aboard landed in Normandy, the north coast of France. Known as D-Day, the landing in Normandy was the beginning of a massive Allied march to the east. Six months later, the Allied armies reached Germany. After the last attempt to achieve success in December 1944, known as the Battle of the Ardennes, the German army was crushed. Allies declared victory in Europe 8 May 1945. "

There is not a single word here that the USA won the war. It is even said that the Germans were weakened at the time of the landing, and only the actions of the Red Army were weakened. This excerpt gives a brief chronology of the actions of US troops and all And the last thing - the Allies proclaimed Victory, for some reason you think only about the USA. Although all countries of the anti-Hitler Wallace were allies, they declared victory, this is implied.

Quote: Rider

“We must recall from history that millions of people did not want the United States to enter either the Second World War or the First. If we had not entered the First World War, then maybe everyone would have spoken German and there would have been no democracy in the world...As for the Second World War, while we were waiting, millions of people died in German camps and the Germans captured most of Europe ”.

And here is only an assumption that it could be so. And in the second part, and regret that the United States entered the war late, which killed millions of people.

Quote: Rider

“You must not be biased towards the country that saved you from fascism”

Similar words are spoken in CIS schools, but the country is called Russia. This is a lesson in patriotism and so that children know.

Quote: Rider

“You should not be so biased towards a country that saved you from Nazi leadership in World War II and that constantly helps you.”

And here is the lesson of patriotism. And in our schools they also say that children should be grateful to their homeland for getting rid of fascism.

[Rider]

Quote: Beck

Here is a fellow countryman

I’m not sure that my countryman, too often your flags change.
although I am convinced that you were born RK.

and for the rest.

Quote: Beck

There is not a single word here that the USA won the war. It is even said that the Germans were weakened at the time of the landing, and only the actions of the Red Army were weakened.

firstly you read the reference, there is not only ONE textbook mentioned.
read, read.
she is not long.
secondly, EVEN IN THE CUT TO MY CUT, they mow not childishly.

The Allies opened a western front against weakened Germans.

weakened by KEM?
Santa Claus?
deserteria?
impotence?

all subsequent comments THIS IS THE RESULT OF TRAINING IN CUSTOM TEXTBOOKS.

read the links in full.
originals are indicated there.

[Beck]

Okay, I read it. But not one political leader in the West has ever claimed that only they won. But in our country these are echoes of the Cold War, when communist propaganda invented all kinds of things in order to defame capitalism. And not only about the war. In Soviet times, I read extensive articles in newspapers where, on falsifications, it was stated and struck us that the average wage of a Soviet worker is higher than that of an American. Therefore, they say our worker can afford more, and the American lives, almost starving.

Quote: Rider

I’m not sure that my countryman, too often your flags change.

Well, not so sure not so sure. It’s a master's business and I insist on how to do nothing. But I do not have money and there is no absolute desire to wander around the Americas. And in technical terms, like all of these sites have some kind of guide, VO is Beeline, so it confuses it with its programs.

So I signed the message now, and the striped one got out again. Or do you think that from 20 o'clock yesterday I already left for the states?

[builder]

If you want to make a DOCUMENTARY film about 28 Panfilov’s people, this can be called a lie. (Like Georgian documentaries about 08.08.08)

You know, I answered in some blog - history is only a relation to it. There are “undeniable” facts for any point of view. And the truth is also a matter of personal choice. Looking at the same thing, people see completely different things. Sometimes just diametrical. Andrei Tolubeyev once said (I don’t know this thought or he quoted someone): “Nobody needs the whole truth, only the part that makes a person stronger, cleaner and closer to God is needed.” You know, I totally agree with that.

Before starting the script, I did a much deeper investigation than those who limited themselves to an article on Wikipedia. I wondered why it was necessary to invent a feat when there were a myriad of examples of mass heroism along the entire front line. I did not find the answer. But the reasons that made the feat debunk were found very quickly. So I adhere to the point of view that falsification is not a feat, but just materials proving that it was not there.

/ Andrei Challope (One of the authors of the script)

[Pimply]

Unless at the same time they are trying to imagine this as reality. Namely, this is what the author of the script does.

[builder]

Quote: Pimply

Unless at the same time they are trying to imagine this as reality. Namely, this is what the author of the script does.

Dear Eugene, where did you get this from?

[Pimply]

Read what they write. And in what form.

[builder]

http://vk.com/away.php?to=http%3A%2F%2F28panfilovcev.com%2F

[Firstvanguard]

these would be truth-cutters, but an ice pick on the head.

+ 100500

[Begemot]

Lopatov,
so you can agree that it’s not worth fighting, it would be better to live under the Germans!
Any hero and his feat is to a certain extent idealized and mystified, because life, and especially war, is much more complicated, ugly and darker than stories about it, and everyone understands this perfectly, but this does not diminish respect and reverence for people who have accomplished the feat. and spit saliva that "this platoon was not in this trench, but in another, and the German tank was first knocked out by the artillerymen, and then the infantrymen threw grenades at it, and not vice versa, which means all this is not true" - bullshit. There is no detailed (I emphasize, thorough) description of military operations! But the fact that the heroically dead soldiers did not let the enemy go to Moscow in the fall of 41 is undeniable. Maybe the grave of the unknown soldier, too, must be removed, but then suddenly he was just what a quartermaster and died not heroically! There is another way to crap the heroes: "why did they do that, they just shot, they shoot at training grounds and exercises too, nothing heroic." Calm down!

[Lopatov]

No need to invent my thoughts for me. You would rather read carefully.

[pa_nik]

Peresvet - Bagration - Klochkov - Rodionov .. Traditions in Russia are - to WIN.

[pa_nik]

By the way, I somehow met here, I don't remember where: "God - rati - he". How ..

[Letnab]

Great article! We need a film about this feat! Since childhood, I like to watch the film "Aty-Baty", for sure you remember .. Strong film!

[Hort]

But I still hope that "Volokolamskoe Shosse" will be filmed on a new basis. Excellent work about the same Panfilov division

[Fuzeler]

Very good and objective article. The author is smart.

[Nayhas]

The fact is that the military commander Koroteev heard from the commissar of the 8th Panfilov division Egorov about the battles at the Dubosekovo junction, the commissar himself did not participate in these battles, but heard from another commissar who also did not fight there, but heard about it. Instead of looking for witnesses of that battle, Shorter took the political report in which the fourth company became the fifth and together with the editor of the Red Star they blinded an article about the feat (the number of heroes was taken from the ceiling by logical calculations). And when there was interest in the exploit of 28 Panfilov’s commander Krivitsky decided to develop the topic, when it turned out that the information was not completely correct, the regiment commander Karpov said that the entire regiment participated in the battles, and not 28 people, Krivitsky took the names of 28 people that captain Gundilovich remembered and Further using his imagination he thought up all the details. And if one of the heroes of Panfilov’s Dobrobabin had not been sentenced for treason, no one would have known that everything described by Krivitsky was a fiction.
The actions of the Red Star correspondents resemble the hero J. Hasek of the freely determined Marek, who, having become the historiographer of the battalion before the outbreak of hostilities, had already painted the exploits of all the people around him.
It’s a lie all the time ...

[Grishka100watt]

Oh, the agent was drawn.

[Gahprom]

Agent posts messages on Topvar?

http://topwar.ru/1225-28-panfilovcev-vechnaya-slava-pavshim-vyzhivshim-lagerya.h
tml

did the same actually happen at the Dubosekovo junction? And what was the feat of the Panfilovites? The opinion of historians is as follows: indeed, the soldiers of the Panfilov’s division showed heroism by delaying the advance of tanks for four hours and allowing the command to pull up troops for a decisive battle. However, the entire battalion deserved fame, and not only the famous 4th company of the 1075th regiment of the 316th rifle division. And the main feat of the fighters is that, having overcome the fear of tanks, with minimal technical support (according to some reports, the entire company had only two anti-tank rifles!) They managed to stop the tank convoy.
Dobrobabin was released ahead of schedule after 7 years, and was deprived of all awards. His name was not called anywhere (he was considered dead), and in I960, he was officially banned from mentioning Dobrobabin. For many years, the Moscow military historian G. Kumanev was busy with the rehabilitation of the hero. And he got his way: in 1993, the Supreme Court of Ukraine rehabilitated Dobrobabina. And after the death of Ivan Yevstafyevich (he died on December 19 1996), the title of Hero of the Soviet Union was returned to him the so-called “Permanent Presidium of the Congress of People's Deputies of the USSR” headed by Soot Umalatova.

And the catch phrase of Kruchkov’s political instructor is entirely on the conscience of journalists. The Panfilov Division was formed mainly from Kazakhs, Kyrgyz and Uzbeks, the Russians in it were much less than half. Many hardly knew Russian (only the main teams). So, political politician Klochkov would hardly be able to make pathetic speeches in front of a company: first, a good half of the fighters would not understand anything, and second, the rumbling from the breaks was such that even the teams did not always hear.

Well, now tell me the classic phrase, but what's the difference.

[grafrozow]

And whose agent are you? Who hired you? True across the throat? Gorepatriot, Accustomed to sculpting beautiful slogans on latki, just a lot of patches, I'm afraid there will not be enough kumach. And you will lie further with a good purpose? Only you won’t go to the front, those in the rear you need to inspire and agitate. Next, the eagles, and I follow you, well, purely political. If you served in the army, you know how the language was removed about them — the workplace was tidied up.

[kazssr]

I just want to say in the words of the hero Martynov - Chief Fedot Vaskov -: "There were 28 of them, 28 young guys, and they did not pass, they did not pass"
GLORY TO HEROES AND ETERNAL MEMORY

[avia12005]

Down with "Penal Battalion" and "The Last Armored Train"! Give the truth about the heroes !!!

[Gahprom]

Are you talking about the fact that GSS type Dobrobabin was a policeman, and about the fact that Krivitsky invented everything, because he was afraid to go to the front?
agree
read, it was already on Topvar
http://topwar.ru/1225-28-panfilovcev-vechnaya-slava-pavshim-vyzhivshim-lagerya.h
tml

[Kars]

Alexey Valeryevich Isaev
Antisuvorov. The big lies of the little man. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2004. - 352 sec. - ISBN 5-699-05998-9 [1]
Antisuvorov. Ten myths of the Second World War. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2004. - 416 sec. - ISBN 5-699-07634-4 [2]

Ulanov Andrey Andreevich; Shein, Dmitry Vladimirovich.
Order in the tank troops.

I recommend that you read excellent books for familiarization with the Resunoids at times. There is also the author Pomagaybo who is also very interesting. The order in the tank troops is a must-read book for those who want to discuss the Soviet tanks especially about the start of the war.

[Nagaibak]

Kars "The best books I recommend to familiarize yourself with rhizunoids at once."
I agree. He at least has links to archival sources, unlike them. Rezun directly declares - I refer to memoirs. But, memoirs such a thing here I remember, I don’t remember there.

[Gahprom]

Quote: Pimply

afraid of ouses - do not go to Topwar 8)

oh, screech minus me already))
how many do we have there? -5 thousand? I still have time to say))

[Grishka100watt]

Friends!
What do the gentlemen Pupyrchaty, Lopatov, Gakhprom and others who write, say that there were 28 Panfilovites, did not say anything to Klochkov, say that 28 of them are to betray the past, etc.?
They cannot deny the feat; it will not work. But they are trying to dissolve the feat in troubled waters.
So that a person who remembered to himself, or in a conversation about this feat, remembered their words and doubted what he said or thought.
If now the words "28 Panfilovites" mainly cause pride and rolls a lump to the throat, then they are trying to break this chain and bring doubt, hiding behind good intentions.

Option 1. "Mention of 28 Panfilovites" -> "delight and pride for our ancestors".

Option 2. "Mention of 28 Panfilovites" -> "I remember somewhere that I heard that there were not 28 of them," Behind Moscow "not Klochkov, but some political instructor said, in general, not clear circumstances" -> "I won't , probably, to understand this topic more, and to say something that I don't know for sure. "

This is their goal: to stir up, dissolve, bring doubt, focus on the little things, hiding behind the search for truth.

[Pimply]

Yes. I feel it’s time to organize the Evil League of Evil, and, Lopatov? Let’s enter it, we will understand, destroy young immature minds.
And here such Light Forces will fight with us, who do not care about real people, who are prettier than slogans and lubok, who do not understand how terrible the real war is, who did not see it, did not sniff, and do not understand. They believe that the main thing is gloss and St. George ribbon, and real people - that they are real people. They are the Forces of Light, you see.

[Iraclius]

28 panzfilovtsev. Ready-made heroics not related to reality. The invention of the journalist. And real heroes are replaced with lubok. It is one thing if it were immediately said that they were filming a myth. Or somehow it was indicated. But no. Here, you see, patriotism and historical truth. We supposedly had 28 Panfilov’s - and Nybet.

And you will miss the history of the entire Great Patriotic War. Debunk, tear the covers, remove more chernukha ... What, with whom and how often ... the truth is everyone has their own. Do you want to see a feature or documentary movie? You can make a feature film about 28 Heroes, and then show a documentary, which discusses all versions of what happened. All versions. And let the thinking viewer make a conclusion himself. I wouldn’t watch a documentary, because to me my truth seems to be correct. Your truth is not, because it does not bring anything good and holy. It’s not hot from her, not cold. From her disgusting and disgusting. True, you know, it should be good, and not vulgarize, bring down ... Then this is not true, but a lie. Sorry for the harshness.

[Pimply]

Respected. They spit on those who have replaced real people with the popular image.

From the testimony of the former commander of the 1075th Infantry Regiment I.V. Kaprov (1947):
... There was no battle of 28 Panfilov’s with German tanks at the Dubosekovo junction on November 16, 1941 - this is a complete fiction. On this day, at the Dubosekovo junction as part of the 2nd battalion, the 4th company fought with German tanks, and really fought heroically. Over 100 people died from the company, and not 28, as was reported in the newspapers. None of the correspondents contacted me during this period; I never told anyone about the battle of 28 Panfilov’s, and I couldn’t speak, since there was no such battle. I did not write any political reports about this.

100-odd people, 100-odd living, real people who gave their lives, who fought fiercely, who bite into the ground, were replaced with a splint of 28 heroes. Lubok is more beautiful than the truth - he does not smell of pain, he smells of heroism.

You, replacing reality with poppy, betray their memory, spit on the history of the Second World War.
Feature film is great. But do not everywhere declare the event as a real feat.

[smersh70]

Quote: Pimply

You, substituting reality for popular soup,

the first time I disagree with you))) .. of 28 died 24 ..... 4 was captured ..... after the war seems to have survived 2nd ...... in the mid-90s this question raised .. conducted an investigation ..... why again raise this problem ........ that there are no other problems in history or something .... better more info about 41 years ... about the battles in Dubno. ..about the southwestern front ....

[Pimply]

So it seems or survived? Who was captured? Do you have any links? Data?

Here's the real fight:

The commander of the 1075th regiment I. Kaprov (testimony given during the investigation in the Panfilov’s case):
... By November 16, 1941, there were 120-140 people in the company. My command post was outside Dubosekovo, 1,5 km from the position of the 4th company (2nd battalion). I don’t remember now whether there were anti-tank rifles in the 4th company, but I repeat that in the entire 2nd battalion there were only 4 anti-tank rifles ... In total, there were 2-10 enemy tanks on the 12nd battalion site. How many tanks went (directly) to the sector of the 4th company, I do not know, or rather, I can’t determine ...
By means of the regiment and the efforts of the 2nd battalion, this tank attack was repelled. In battle, the regiment destroyed 5-6 German tanks, and the Germans retreated. At 14-15 hours the Germans opened strong artillery fire ... and again went on the attack with tanks ... More than 50 tanks attacked in sections of the regiment, and the main blow was aimed at the positions of the 2nd battalion, including the section of the 4th company, and one the tank even went to the command post of the regiment and lit the hay and the booth, so I accidentally managed to get out of the dugout: the railway embankment saved me, people who had survived the attack of German tanks began to gather around me. The 4th company suffered most of all: 20–25 people survived, led by the company commander Gundilovich. The remaining companies suffered less.

[smersh70]

Quote: Pimply

Who was captured?

It was further established that in addition to Dobrobabin, Vasilyev Illarion Romanovich, Shemyakin Grigory Melentievich, Shadrin Ivan Demidovich and Kuzhebergenov Daniil Aleksandrovich, who are also listed on the 28 Panfilov’s who died in battle with German tanks, were still alive. Therefore, the need arose to investigate the very circumstances of the battle of the 28 guards from the Panfilov division that took place on November 16 of November 1941 at the Dubosekovo junction.

[Pimply]

Yeah. Accordingly, it turned out that there was a feat, but not 28 Panfilov’s, but a slightly different one.

[Demon45]

All the same, you agree that there was a feat, and 28 Panfilov’s are a symbol of the feat of the entire division and the entire Soviet people.

[grafrozow]

Eugene, who are you arguing with? Carlson, as he himself writes, is the grandson of a security officer, the son of a security officer, shoot, shoot everyone. The son of a bitch did not shoot. He does not understand that no one denies the feat of the Soviet People, but you cannot be a little pregnant, there can be no half-truths, and who understands this for the Karlsons the worst enemies. He must be shown in the film both the role of the party "VKPb" and the people's selfless love for the "best friend of Soviet athletes" Both my grandfathers fought, one at Stalingrad, returned disabled, the second died near the station Mga-where the grave is not known and these "patriots" do not understand that chanting one hero and keeping silent about 10 others is a crime against their relatives. How then "No one is forgotten, nothing is forgotten ",? No, they have everything smooth and fluffy, with one blow of seven. And when the lie did not bring good, sorry for the poor. I have the impression that Carlson is still speaking at the party meeting, only the audience is not the same. As in the joke, when the whole ragged, overgrown man came out of the forest to the farm and askeddo not have German grandmothers? Hurray patriots.

[Gahprom]

I say, "real" patriot topvar is stupid

They cannot deny the feat; it will not work. But they are trying to dissolve the feat in troubled waters.

you were boldly allocated- REMOVE ABOUT ALL DIVISION, tell about Volokolamsk sappers with shtug (like you know what it is, huh), tell about Ilyinsky borders, is it all in your opinion muddy water?

Option 1. "Mention of 28 Panfilovites" -> "delight and pride for our ancestors".

any clown googles this case in 2 seconds and pokes it in your nose, and out of habit you will scream slogans, because there’s nothing to answer,
ps, that's because of such stubborn ignoramus of the USSR and collapsed

[Iraclius]

Guys, why are you? What are you writing? You read about what half of the posts! There was no feat? Panfilov’s are not heroes? What are you doing? This is holy! This should not be touched at all. No way. Today you will debunk the Panfilovites, tomorrow you’ll start to spit on the icons and give your children into slavery to Western gays! It will be the end!

[Gahprom]

Guys, what are you doing? What are you writing? You read about what half of the posts! There was no feat? Panfilov’s are not heroes?

you read something else visually
there was a feat, Panfilov’s were, but not mythical 28, but the whole division

What are you doing? This is holy! This should not be touched at all. No way. Today you will debunk Panfilov’s, tomorrow you’ll start to spit on the icons and give your children into slavery to Western gays! It will be the end!

they touched, under Stalin, and Dobrobabin was assimilated for a term and the GSS was taken away

[Pimply]

This particular feat was not. There was a fiction of a journalist.

There was another feat. Much less beautifully looking, but from this much more terrible, cruel and bloody. The feat, which also stood to the end, in which many more people participated, but the feat that was forgotten, was deleted from memory thanks to the myth of 28 Panfilov’s.

[Iraclius]

Guys, don't touch this. Do you know how many feats there were that we don't know anything about? Why dig dirty laundry? Do you know how much shit has surfaced in connection with the debunking of the personality cult? And how much more will come up? Are you sure the commission was not given the "Fas!" Command? That Krivitsky was corny lied, because he was forced? The feat was in any case. Let them make a mistake with numbers, numbers and losses, but he was, guys! You read your posts again. Now our children are reading this and what will they learn? That everything is a lie? Films should not be made about companies, regiments, divisions or operational formations. Films should be made about people and for people. About heroes. about exploits. Cinema that evokes human emotions in a person. Makes it better. And what are you calling for?

[Lopatov]

Quote: Iraclius

Why dig dirty laundry?

Why to create patriotic films on the basis of dirty linen? To generally drain the memory of World War II into the toilet? So that the younger generation ceases to believe even in true stories about the heroism of the people? What do these unfortunate patriots achieve?

[grafrozow]

Shovels, where are you from ... brains? If you call black and white, then we don’t have to explain why this VICTORY has come at such a DEAR PRICE, and draw conclusions so that it doesn’t happen again. Do you want to know the truth? Do not believe the game? So the traitor, they still have a class war.

[smersh70]

Quote: Pimply

There was another feat.

In her explanation, the chairman of the Nelidovsky s / council Smirnova said:

"The battle of the Panfilov division near our village of Nelidovo and the crossing of Dubosekovo took place on November 16, 1941. During this battle, all our residents, including myself, were hiding in shelters ... The Germans entered the area of ​​our village and crossing Dubosekovo on November 16, 1941 and were repulsed by units of the Soviet Army on December 20, 1941. At that time, there were large snow drifts, which continued until February 1942, due to which we did not collect the corpses of those killed on the battlefield and did not perform burials.
... In early February 1942. on the battlefield we found only three corpses, which we buried in a mass grave on the outskirts of our village. And then already in March 1942, when it began to melt, the military units carried three more corpses to the mass grave, including the corpse of political instructor Klochkov, who was identified by the soldiers. So in the common grave of the Panfilov heroes, which is located on the outskirts of our village Nelidovo, 6 soldiers of the Soviet Army are buried. No more corpses were found on the territory of the Nelidovsky s / council. "
Other residents of the village of Nelidovo told about the same thing, adding that on the second day after the battle they saw the surviving guardsmen Vasiliev and Dobrobabin.

[Pimply]

There was a fight. The 4th company took part in the battle, which in heavy battles lost more than 100 people.

[dustycat]

Pimpled ..
Well there was a fight, so what?
There was a feat of the company. So what?
There was a feat of the regiment. So what?
There was a feat of the division. So what?
There was a feat of the army. So what?
There was a feat of the front. So what?
There was a feat of the country. So what?

For a specific fighter, in a specific battle, there is only his platoon.
Here is the strip where his platoon stands.
And the whole war is in the strip of this particular platoon.
Because the more you are simply not able to make out even in a training battle.
Platoon Band.
And the whole war.
And so that's just what can be popularly explained to the whole country and to every fighter.
Because they no longer embrace the mind.
Do not feel.
Do not understand.
Do not feel.
And 28 will understand. And will get through. Will come. To most.
Maybe not for everyone.

[Pimply]

Yeah. Just do not then try to present the case as if everything was in reality. And the main mistake of the authors of the future cinema is that they sculpt not a patriotic film, but a pseudo-patriotic splint. Inflection to the other side.

[Demon45]

Quote: Pimply

Yeah. Just do not then try to present the case as if everything was in reality. And the main mistake of the authors of the future cinema is that they sculpt not a patriotic film, but a pseudo-patriotic splint. Inflection to the other side.

So, according to your words, there was no battle. 28 Panfilovites is a symbol, and if you don't understand this, then I feel sorry for you. And if you have something itchy about seeking "truth" try to write about American white and fluffy history. I will definitely read it.

[Pimply]

Quote: Demon45

So, according to your words, there was no battle.

There was no mythical battle of 28 Panfilov’s. There was a real battle of the 4th company, in which more than 100 people died. Not so handsome on paper.

[Firstvanguard]

This particular feat was not. There was a fiction of a journalist.

It’s good to juggle with words, the same feat, the odds on the tanks are the same, the battle is the same, the death in the end is the same! No need to replace concepts, a different number of heroes, replace with a bunch of verbal diarrhea about myths and fairy tales.
It is outraged that the other participants of this feat are forgotten? Put a surname list of all participants. Then bring real benefits and honor the memory of the heroes.
Stop trolling on the bones !!!

There was another feat. Far less beautiful looking

There are no beautiful feats in war, no more, no less. War is hellish labor, filth and death.

[Asan Ata]

Yes, it looks like this is already happening. This is not about a fact, which may be in detail and does not correspond to what was happening, but. Let Chapaeva be demolished! Let's go to the Kulikovo battle, let's cancel the Varyag, or maybe Gagarin is not the first? There are actions, there is heroism, there are legends. Get your dirty hands off our legends! Let them make a film, let our children sip the heroism of their grandfathers, not the Western.

[Firstvanguard]

Compatriots!
Stop feeding these trolls. They all the same, like parrots, will repeat the same thing.
IMHO a movie about heroes is needed, whether it will justify my / your hopes, time will tell. There will be a film - we will learn we will discuss.

[grafrozow]

I don’t remember that Chapaev fought with the Germans, but “Varyag” fought in the Russian-Japanese war under the motto for Faith, Tsar and Fatherland. And by the way, “a fact that may in detail and does not correspond to what was happening” is no longer a fact fiction.

[T80UM1]

For me, as an Almaty citizen, there is a monument to 28 Panfilov’s and I don’t give a damn about the opinions of pseudo-historians and truth-seekers, but was this a fact ... The Germans sacredly believe in Hartman, velvet, rape of billions of people of German nationality, etc. And I believe in a feat 28 Panfilovites!

[Pimply]

That is, you are ready to replace real people with lubok. Bravo.

[T80UM1]

Real people, please give specifically the name of the surname, who exactly and where did the feat in that battle, whom should we praise? Who to elevate to heroes? You yourself do not know because the Germans left the battlefield and no one knows, except for the participants who died.

What you are striving to remove is the fact of the feat and replace it with a vague wording - it is not known who the hero is, but in general they all more or less fought somewhere near Moscow!

[Iraclius]

Which lubok? Awarded Gold Stars of Lubok? What are you writing? How not ashamed to write something like that?

[Lopatov]

Exactly. And therefore, an investigation was launched by the Military Prosecutor's Office in 1947.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Pimply

That is, you are ready to replace real people with lubok. Bravo.

And you show how principled you are and list by name ALL fighters of at least this company and circumstances and the course of the battle.
If you have already said "A", they say, what was described was not, say "B" - who and what actually did.

[Pimply]

And can you list by name all those who died in those battles? No. Do you know why? Precisely because you can easily find the myth, and cannot find data on the real victims without going into the archive.

[Rakti-kali]

Quote: Pimply

And can you list by name all those who died in those battles? No. Do you know why? Precisely because you can easily find the myth, and cannot find data on the real victims without going into the archive.

Oh, how recognizable ... perhaps this is still a national trait - if you don't know something, accuse your interlocutor of incompetence, let him have a headache. I wrote in Russian in white: - "If you said" A ", they say, was not what was described, say" B "- who and what actually did."
Since you have already "entered" the archives, share with us your intimate knowledge - L / S lists, maps, reports, ZhBD, testimony of witnesses, etc., etc. Or do you mean tabloid newspapers by archives? And in fact, apart from "there was nothing" to say?

[SS68SS]

I get the impression that someone pays extra for gentlemen like "Gakhprom" for verbiage, disinformation, sacrilege and sycophancy.

[soldier's grandson]

it was impossible to reach Berlin in 1945 without feats. who has doubts about this?

[Hort]

The British? Whom Rommel in the Desert with much less power slipper drove?

a little offtopic, but I just remembered: there is such a bike that once in one of the field camps the British taxied Rommel drunk in the trash (mixed up something with the drunken ball) and landed in a tent. There he overslept a little and, still not quite sober, drove on. The British were in such an ah ... from surprise and arrogance (Rommel himself!), That they did nothing and did not touch him. :)

These are the warriors

[Grishka100watt]

Immediately I imagined Rommel falling face down on the bed, sprawling like a bear with a prolonged drunken howl "Eeeeeeeeeeee ...." and the frightened running glances of the British ...
Mozh, really, by the way)

[rus_ak_93]

Quote: Cyril7377

I agree, during the USSR, such a law was called censorship, it's time to introduce it. Recently I read about the history of the creation of the film "Brest Fortress", so our "Russian" creators tried to stick into the film an episode with an attack by a Chechen-Ingush battalion, armed with spades and knives. They say that they were brave horsemen, they all perished, but the Germans were chopped up by a whole regiment ... Thanks to the Belarusians, they were outraged specifically and forced to remove the hack and slander. I think that this film only won.
Z.Y. Once the film is made by enthusiasts, at their own expense, then the film should turn out to be honest and truthful, without the massive feats of criminals and individuals. Uh, let's say so of a united nationality.

Well, if someone remembers a small episode, it still entered the film.

[sumcream56]

Quote: hort

The British? Whom Rommel in the Desert with much less power slipper drove?

a little offtopic, but I just remembered: there is such a bike that once in one of the field camps the British taxied Rommel drunk in the trash (mixed up something with the drunken ball) and landed in a tent. There he overslept a little and, still not quite sober, drove on. The British were in such an ah ... from surprise and arrogance (Rommel himself!), That they did nothing and did not touch him. :)

These are the warriors

And you look at the ethnic composition of His Majesty's troops: Indians, South Africans, Kenyans, New Zealanders, Poles, etc. At the same time, remember at the same time about the Battle of England and finally about the Falklands. And those "combat" British officers, until 1940, drove more than any Dumshmans across the deserts of Iraq and Pakistan. Where did they get their experience of modern warfare? In 1939, the British had only 800 tanks, of which only 200 with cannons, and even that caliber 42 mm without fragmentation shells.
The author of the article is right. Modern Russian Nazis, or rather skinheads, greatly extol Hitler's civilizational mission. Especially these are the Cossacks, whose real heroes are those who fought in the 15 SS Cossack Corps. They send delagations to Lienz to the monuments "treacherously betrayed by the British and innocently tortured in the dungeons of SMERSH and the NKVD to fighters for the Cossack people." Therefore, there is no need to substitute.

[RoTTor]

[b] Everything is simpler and worse. A generation of true patriots who were only in the USSR - Panfilov’s, Gastello, Sailors, etc. - ad infinitum, and in Japan - real samurai officers, kamikaze, simply died out.
The current livestock obsessed with grandmothers-machines-dachas-babas, etc., striving to quickly dump away, having collected more from here. For such people there is no Motherland, no Russia, they have a "rashka". It is simply impossible for such a livestock to understand the generation of heroes who, without thinking about themselves, deliberately died for their Motherland.
Because this wretched population of anthropoids is trying to measure heroes with its filthy arshin.
What the enemies managed to do was to completely destroy the "country of romantics, the country of heroes" and bring out such a livestock ... [/ b]

[rus_ak_93]

and as for the film, why break feathers (keys), it is necessary, and no matter how many people stood there, the main thing survived.
remember the film "They fought for their homeland": there was such an episode during the Second World War, it is not known, I think this is a collective image of soldiers who fought for their homeland, but still I can’t watch without tears, although I have seen it more than once. And "Hot Snow", "And the Dawns Here Are Quiet".
And enough g ... smear: lubok-not lubok.

[dustycat]

That's it.
In all of these pictures, only ONE EXPLOSION is shown.
Because for any soldier, the whole war is a platoon strip.
You don’t perceive more during a battle - even a training one.

[Pimply]

Very well. So let them show one platoon of the 4th company. And I think there are enough heroic episodes there. Only real. Or then let them not try to imagine this as true. There are wonderful films about the war, there are wonderful books about it. Who do not try to deceive the viewer and do not try to pretend to be true.

[Firstvanguard]

and as for the film, why break feathers (keys), it is necessary, and no matter how many people stood there, the main thing survived.
remember the film "They fought for their homeland": there was such an episode during the Second World War, it is not known, I think this is a collective image of soldiers who fought for their homeland, but still I can’t watch without tears, although I have seen it more than once. And "Hot Snow", "And the Dawns Here Are Quiet".
And enough g ... smear: lubok-not lubok.

I subscribe to every word.

[Landwarrior]

So I don’t understand something ... When we were filming according to Frost, "there are days in May" - silence, the boil rose only when we finished. Same thing with US-2 - while the silence was being filmed, the boil then rose. And then - well, the idea is taken as a rather patriotic story - and on you, immediately at the start, such stuffing of G on the fan. Why did they start blowing on the water after being burnt in milk?
Historians, damn it ... Where these historians used to be.

[Pimply]

Because the authors decided to make noise about the film before it was released

[Rider]

Quote: Pimply

Because the authors decided to make noise about the film before it was released

oh I'm wildly sorry.

DOES ANYONE GO ANOTHER?

and just think logically.

THE PROJECT IS STATED AS INDEPENDENT, that is, it will be withdrawn by donations, without attracting large capital.

HOW DO YOU MORE MONEY TO COLLECT IF BE SILENT ABOUT THE FILM?

[Pimply]

They announce that they do not care about history. And that history will be faked. Everything is cool. Bravo.

[Rider]

they announce that they are making a film about the war, a patriotic orientation.

and I think it’s really hurt.

since recently NORMAL war films. count on the fingers.

but give all the authenticity to you.

[Pimply]

Nope. They clearly say that they will falsify history.

Instead of bloody gebni there will be a pseudo-patriotic splint. And again there will be a bad movie.

Do you know what was the plus of films about the war of the same 60s? They did not try to pretend to be something else.

[Landwarrior]

I don’t understand you ... So, the United States can make such films, the United Kingdom can, but Russia can’t? Like what, didn’t come out with a snout?
want historicity, see documentary and newsreels.

[Firstvanguard]

Instead of bloody gebni there will be a pseudo-patriotic splint. And again there will be a bad movie

Finally!!!
It became clear that you are so enraged in the film that has not yet been released!
Would you roll with your myths about bloody gebnya!
My grandfather went through the whole war and for two more than two years he shot Bendera scum. He personally, bloody gebeniya saved twice. From the environment from the Fritz and from the geeks of UPAshny. Bloody gebnya i.e. the NKVD troops who took the strike from the first minutes of the war, held the strike in the most terrible and seemingly hopeless areas, SMERSH wetting spies and traitors - at one mention, apparently cause you a fit of genetic horror. This explains the hysteria about the film and the enthusiasm of Khrushchev's lies.
Go to the specialized forums S_SH_P and write there in a puppy's delight from the "ordinary rayon".

[grafrozow]

Understandably, the NKVD troops defeated the Nazis. I did not know, thanks for the enlightenment. It was hard for them in the detachments.

[Landwarrior]

You are our truth-bearer! You generally order "Not one step back!" read, no? So, there it is written in Russian that the detachments are formed "from units found on vacation", that is. such an ordinary "mahra". The NKVD is already a defensive commandant's office, from which to the front line, like to Beijing cancer.

[grafrozow]

Read carefully yourself, namely, in whose submission they were.

[Landwarrior]

out of about 200 detachments, only about 40 are subordinated to Special Departments. And it is not a fact that they consisted of the Commissars. The People's Commissariat had enough of its own worries, and its soldiers, too, they needed the "mahra" like a seagull - an exhaust parachute. In the structure of the People's Commissariat there were Operational Forces (an analogue of modern "Vovans") and Border Troops (those that remained), this is not counting the police, guards and others, so there was enough people, if anything. Rear protection is also not an easy task.

[Max_Bauder]

Good afternoon guys!

It seems to me (I don’t like to think badly about people) or do Russians (not Russians, for Russians support their own) do not want to recognize the heroism of their brotherly neighbor, trying to disguise their dislike on the pretext of debunking myths or wanting to discover the truth?

After all, how else to interpret this? I will also accept such an argument as "the desire to discover the truth, even to the detriment of oneself" if the Russians did it all the time, when they rake up their own history, but there is no such thing as it is conveniently interpreted in this way.

For example, there are now eccentrics who write that there was no Mongol yoke or present the Battle of Kulikovo as if the Russian squads were fighting the whole Golden Horde (and not a separate company of the escaped disgraced prince) and children in school do not need to know that after the battle on the sandpiper, Tokhtamysh the Khan of Horde twice burned Moscow, and the Russians paid a tribute for another hundred years, until finally Timur from Samarkand destroyed Tokhtamysh.

The subjective description of history is already noticeable in the way the author describes the actions of the enemy and "his own". If "his", then he writes heroically retreated, if the enemy applies the verb "cowardly fled."

Conclusion, although the truth is, open it, but the question is: what do you want to achieve with this? to amuse your conceit that you are so smart? offend memory? or what?

For example, I believe in legends (if they do not teach anything bad), Achilles and Hector, I believe that the Roman commander was noble like the maxim from the movie "Gladiator", I believe that William Wallace was brave like Mel Gibson from the movie "Braveheart", it doesn't matter whether they cheated on their wives, beat their children, paid taxes, how to put on their pants quietly when it was scary, we don't need to know,

Heroes must be such that they are believed and admired by them, so that they encourage others to perform the same feat, the rest is not important. Dirt can be found everywhere.

And about making a film about 28 or the entire division, is it so important? two soldiers served there, aty-bats were soldiers, who asked if these people were really? what were their names? did they act like a movie? who saw this? By God, guys, with such speculations you sometimes get insanity (bureaucratic principality bordering on frank tupism hereditary factor of the era of the Union)

when in the USA they shoot all sorts of fantastic films about their "valiant" soldiers, in Russia they pull each other by the legs so that they don't get up and shoot at least one good film about heroes with envy, and so that it doesn't "hurt" anyone, especially homosexuals, they noticed them (USA) in films (more recently that way about 5 years ago) if there is a group of soldiers, then there must be a white man, a black man, a girl and ... a homosexual.

And watch Russian films about the war, if a soldier, necessarily a girl, as if in the war every soldier was in love (Romeo fucking), but I believe that they did not have sex until they entered Berlin, and then not all of them. So stop asking to carry heresy about the "truth".

[Max_Bauder]

I come from Almaty and am proud of my compatriots, heroes of Panfilov, especially the hero of the Second World War, Baurzhan Momyshuly, who twice pulled his troops out of the encirclement, being a commander, read his book "psychiology of war" and I advise you (they told you his book was read in some military universities Union), here he is definitely cutting the truth.

For example, he writes (not a quote, but a memory from a book)

"during the whole war I have not met anyone, not a single living creature who would not be afraid of death, everything is afraid, it is scary before every attack, but the fact of the matter is that fear helps to live, it makes your body and mind united, during fear everything the body, the whole organism gathers, concentrates, passes into another phase, the heartbeat increases, ears, nose, all organs work to the limit, a person no longer feels partly pain, nothing, his whole is busy with survival. But ... this is the threshold of choice, what the hero and the coward are similar and different? both are afraid, but the hero conquers fear and goes forward, and the coward, surrendering to the will of fear, runs away "

Here is his proverb "if you are not afraid of the enemy, you do not retreat in front of him, then you will go through fire and water, consider yourself victorious, and if you hide, he will find, bent over - thrust (sword), bent over - chop off, consider dead".

So, if such heroes call for themselves, I’ll definitely go, otherwise I’ll shoot = D (and shot in the book he writes)

[Ded_smerch]

But what about Begeldinov's super grandfather?!?!? Also a soldier with a capital letter (by the way he is still alive and even remains faithful to the union)

[Max_Bauder]

Yes, I do not detract from his merits, but the battle for the pilot is not the same as the battle for the motorized infantry, all the hardships of the war are borne by the infantry, from the time of Rome Ancient.

[Syrzhn]

Quote: sevtrash

For filmmakers, journalists, the main thing is that their creation is watched or revered by more people

Not for all.

[Black]

Good day to all.
In my humble opinion, don’t feed us with bread in the past, and as you know, it is unpredictable in Russia, for the reason that everyone delves into it in advance setting goals and catches corresponding to these goals. Some see only black in the past and paint without sparing tar, others whiten the story so that it becomes like a veil of an immaculate bride.
A non-consolidated society is distorting history, and the damage is enormous. And above all, young people suffer.
Tell me, who in France would dare to constantly exaggerate the topic of betrayal during World War II collaboration, an inglorious war with Germany? De-Gaulle drew a line under this back in 2 and that’s it !!!
We shy from corner to corner .... this is disgusting.

[Bakunin]

Eternal memory to the Heroes of the Great Patriotic War .. And not only ... All wars in which our valiant Warriors defended our Fatherland

[dustycat]

Lord of the truth.
One question.
And which of you participated in tactical exercises?

The present story consists of small, minor fragments such as the exploit of one platoon.
Because it was still not clear to me at school - did one platoon hold the entire front?
And in tactical training on NVP at the exit to the field and at the game Zarnitsa you understand a simple thing.
For each individual soldier, the entire great war (world or local) - all - to throw a grenade from him.
And more than 28 fighters - their platoon - in this space you simply do not see and will not see and do not feel. In front of you you see from one hundred meters to ten kilometers, behind you - you feel boundlessness, and left-right - to throw a grenade.
And that's all.
All Russia. What is behind.
All Germany. What rushing at you.
Here is the platoon bar. What can you throw around the edges of your eyes.
And ALL the war enters into this platoon band.

This is what all truth-seekers misunderstood.
It's so easy.

Let them take it off. We always have time to give in the face.

[Odin_ne_voin]

And not even a platoon, but a squad, or even a group of 2-3 soldiers. and of course not the platoon held offensive. But the feat of Panfilov’s, as you don’t turn now, remains a feat, a great feat. Regardless of agitation and propaganda. Facts are stubborn things. But in my opinion, it is necessary to discuss and condemn films on other forms.

[SPHINX]

Actually, the author of the article talks about this film, if I'm not mistaken the video normally fails to insert, catch the links):

 Show / Hide text

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujCl4BuBh6E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rfAk4OSGFE

Good luck to the guys and success in their business.

Well, if you add on the topic, then "truth lovers" should take into account the fact that, even this and other feats were invented, these stories inspired people to fight the enemy, gave hope of victory, encouraged others to become the same heroes.
The feat of 28 Panfilov’s is a myth, you say ?! And to hell with him! how many real heroes appeared thanks to these stories? A hundred? Two? Or more?

[sokrat-71]

A feature film about war does not have to be a historical encyclopedia. First of all, he must convey the general spirit of that war, the heroism of our soldiers. And for lovers of historical truth - the road to archives and scientific publications. All the same, the movie will not be able to reliably accurately describe past historical events. The main thing is to get a good movie.

[Pimply]

Correctly. Should not. But then he should clearly indicate this, and not try to pretend to be something else. And the authors of a potential film do just that.

[SPHINX]

Pimpled, listen (those), there are situations when not absolute and historical correspondence / certainty or any other garbage is important, but the idea that this or that story carries is important. And here at the head of everything is precisely the idea that you can’t escape, even if the enemy is stronger, you have to fight, you have to hold on to your own. Something like this. I repeat again, was it real or not, the main thing is that this story inspired other people, motivated them, and so on.

[builder]

Film "28 Panfilov's men" (TEASER)

[SPHINX]

Thank you for uploading the video, I could not insert it.

[Inok_10]

... The feat of Self-sacrifice of the Soviet people in the Great Patriotic War cannot be the subject of unfolding into particulars, People do not you already understand what these "Pimple Toads" are getting at, appearing in comments either under the flag of the Promised Land, or under the Russian one .. their attempt to break general history and the final result on particular small ones .. and try to form a picture out of these particulars in the proper order .. bring them down with minuses .. :) :)

[Pimply]

Well, what are you - in the third person. You break the story, preferring the popular soup to real people who have fallen.

[Shadowcat]

Guys, breathe out, we have a free country. So if someone likes it and wants to see it, then let it look, if someone doesn't like it, it can reconsider Chuck Norris or Rimbaud. How do they say wai note? Or the "historically correct" Rain

[Spiegel]

What would the dead and unknown thousands of heroes from the Pamfilov division say? Well, they were used again, and today the author of the article did it. His position is almost impeccable: he praises the real feat and miracle performed by these people. But for what? To settle scores with those who are interested in the truth, whatever it may be. Well, yes, and on the other side there are also such “truth-seekers.” But the truth is needed so that the small lie about 28 mythical heroes does not cover up the big truth about the feat of an entire division. The journalist who made up a beautiful story did it for his own benefit. Political agencies and authorities picked up the story for their own benefit. And where is the benefit of those who stood to the death on the borders of the Moscow region, and their relatives? And it is our common benefit, all Russians, because we deserve not to be led by the nose and not fed lies.

[Asan Ata]

Panfilov, PANFILOV, General Panfilov. Here in Alma-Ata, no one is mistaken about this, but here, by the way, where are you? We must understand that bringing down our culture is the common task of darkness.

[georg737577]

As the saying goes, “Plato is my friend, but the truth is dearer...”. The article is a minus, the author defends the thesis “If the facts are against us, so much the worse for the facts.”

[castle]

They seem to be adults, but without the commissar’s fairy tales before going to bed, they don’t sleep well. The diagnosis, however.

[Asan Ata]

Probably reasoning in the style of “truth or falsehood” could have been accepted in 1950, when the dust of the war had settled, the majority of the people were seasoned. In 2013, when Russia has pumped up its role in the 20th century and when it is offered a pink diaper instead of a seat in the Security Council, it must be clearly understood that only the spirit can help Russia get out of this diaper. Not the holy spirit, but the spirit of ancestors, or, as we, the Kazakhs, say, aruakh. Thank God, there were heroes, and - God willing, there will be! You are probably surprised that a Kazakh cares for you. I am not here, I am out. It’s just that Russia is our people, albeit strange, but ours. Even if somewhere they don’t like us, we don’t have to play at love, we have to fight the darkness together, otherwise it will be a little hard for us alone.

[Grishka100watt]

Golden words, comrade.

[094711601]

What do you all want to prove with this discussion From the series - it happened or didn’t happen? We are all standing at the mass grave of those boys from 41 and saying nasty things! And we are the heirs....SHAME! Yes, remember for the future - DO NOT STEP THROUGH BLOOD! HICK! ETERNAL MEMORY TO THE FALLEN! LET'S SILENTLY BOW AND HONOR!

[fedorru]

would be a director, honestly would remove:
Historian Sergei Mironenko felt a kick in the ass and collapsed on the frozen bottom of the trench. Still not believing what was happening, he got up and looked up. On the edge of the trench, the soldiers of the Red Army stood in a semicircle.
- This is the last? - clarified one of the military, apparently the commander.
“That's right, comrade political instructor!” - the soldier reported, whose kick sent the director of the State Archive to the trench.
- Excuse me, what's going on? the historian muttered.
“How is it going?” - grinned the political instructor. - The establishment of historical justice. Now you, Mironenko, will save Moscow from the Nazi invaders.
Politruk pointed to a field on which several dozen German tanks froze in anticipation. Tankers climbed onto the towers and, shivering from the cold, watched with interest what was happening at Russian positions.
- I? Why me? - Mironenko asked in shock. “What do I have to do with this?”
“The most direct,” answered the political instructor. - All of you here have the most direct relation to this!
The commander pointed Mironenko to the trench and the historian saw that it was full of respected people: there were already academician Pivovarov and his nephew-journalist, Svanidze was sitting by the machine gun with bulging eyes, next to him was the main de-regulator Fedotov, who was trembling from the cold, or from horror , further there were still familiar faces, but the frightened archivist completely forgot their names.
“What are we all doing here?” - asked Mironenko. - This is not our era!
The soldiers laughed together. Not only Russians but also Germans laughed, and even the recently killed German tanker, trying to maintain decency and pretending not to hear anything, nevertheless, shuddered with laughter.

[fedorru]

continued ...
- Yes? - the political instructor was surprised. “But you all tell in such detail in detail how it really was!” You explain with foam at the mouth that we threw Hitler with corpses. It’s you shouting that the people won the war, not the commanders, and especially not Stalin. You explain this to everyone that Soviet heroes are a myth! You yourself, Mironenko, told us that we were a myth!
- Excuse me, are you political instructor Klochkov? - asked Mironenko.
“Exactly,” the commander answered. - And these are my fighters who are destined to lay their heads in this battle at the Dubosekovo junction! But you, Mironenko, assured that everything was wrong, that all these heroes were a propaganda myth! And you know what we decided? We decided to really be a myth. And to defend Moscow to trust trusted and reliable people. In particular, to you!
- And you? the historian asked quietly.
“And we are in the rear,” one of the fighters answered. - The guys and I were thinking to die for our homeland, for Stalin, but since we are a myth, why should we substitute bullets for nothing? Fight for yourself!
“Hey Russians, how long have you been?” - shouted the shy German tankman.
“Now, Hans, now,” the political instructor waved to him. - You see, Mironenko, time does not endure. It is time for you to defend your homeland.
Then the TV presenter Pivovarov jumped out of the trench and rushed briskly towards the Germans with raised hands. In his hands he held white pants, which he was actively waving.
“What a shame,” said one of the fighters.
“Don’t worry,” Klochkov chuckled. - This is not our shame.
Two German tankers caught Pivovarov and dragged him by the arms to the trench, dropping him down.
“Schweine,” the German swore, looking at his overalls. “This hero of yours has pissed me off my leg with fear!”
The second tankman shot Panfilov’s people to smoke and, drawing out, said:
- Yes, comrades, you're out of luck! And for these here you were dying! Really in our Vaterland same grew? ..
“No, comrade,” one of the Panfilov responded to him. “You now have none.” Only gays and Turks.
- And who are gays? - the German specified.
A Red Army soldier whispered an answer to the aggressor in his ear. The face of the German was flooded with shame. Waving his hand, he went to the tank.
“Let's end with us quickly,” he said. “I want to die from such things again.”
Svanidze rushed from the trench to the political instructor.
- Comrade commander, you misunderstood me, I didn't say anything like that! And then, I can't, I have a "white ticket", I have bad eyesight and an ulcer!
Politruk confidentially leaned towards Svanidze:
- Do you think the tyrant Stalin was worried? He bombarded the enemy with cannon fodder! And even more so, I'm not your commander. You have your own - experienced and proven! Here he comes!

[fedorru]

continued ....
From the depths of the trench Nikita Mikhalkov came to the place of conversation, holding a shovel from his hand.
- Comrade political instructor, how can this be fought against tanks? - the director begged.
“You know better,” the commander answered. “You already did this.” Yes, by the way, your beds are there. You can quickly establish anti-tank defense from them! Well, or pray, or something. Maybe help!
Then the political instructor ordered the construction of his fighters.
- Where are you going? - Mikhalkov asked with a longing in his voice.
- Where to? - the political instructor grinned. - Take a position in your rear! The NKVD detachment is not at hand, so we ourselves will replace it! And if some scum from your penal battalion rushes out of position, we will shoot on the spot for cowardice and treason!
- So there are no penal battles yet!
- One created. Especially for you!
German tanks roared engines. Desperate screams and swearing were heard in the trench - the new defenders of Moscow found out who was the first to expose the myths and dragged them into this story. Fedotov was beaten all together, after which he was thrown out of the trench under a German tank with a bottle. Someone shouted goodbye to him:
- Well, for the Motherland, for Stalin!
Mikhalkov clung to the outgoing political officer:
- Comrade, my father fought, I was always a patriot and defender of heroes, help me!
“Only out of respect for you,” the political instructor answered. - I give a great tool to fight the enemy! As good as it gets!
And the commander handed the director a badminton racket and three shuttlecocks.
“Farewell, the Motherland will not forget you,” Mikhalkov, the political instructor, patted goodbye and rushed after his departing fighters.

All this was written in another topic, but I really liked it.

[tracer]

People need to know the truth about the heroic deeds of the soldiers. And the truth is even worse than the fiction of military journalists. Can you imagine the recruits after school of our day? And if they were sent to the same place, they would fight with the tanks of that time... Would they hold it? What do you think? I remember when I was a soldier. When the brigade commander spoke the day before. He explained everything thoroughly. They say it will be dangerous and there will be losses. Those who are married and feel bad about themselves will remain in place, the volunteers should take a step forward. In general, volunteers are only needed. Our entire unit has taken a step forward. Every single one of them. No one stayed put. Something happens to a Russian person when it’s really .. screw, “no joke here.” No one is “joking” and you understand that neither I nor my friend will ever leave or give up. Anyone who knows this feeling will understand me. And eternal glory to the soldiers who gave their young lives for their HOMELAND....

[Firstvanguard]

Would you hold it?

Kept. The liberals sang this song, but the two Chechen wars demonstrated that, despite betrayal from the very top, from the president, they stood and beat.

[EXA-2]

Quote: Max_Bauder

I come from Almaty and am proud of my compatriots, Panfilov heroes, especially the WWII hero Baurzhan Momyshuly

I support. I read books by Baurzhan Momyshuly (memoirs). He writes well and is lifelike.

[Knizhnik]

Cinema is a good idea. Soviet cinema had a good tradition - even in film adaptations of works of art, they tried not to misinterpret. So it’s better to let it be a truthful movie, so that no one throws mud at you later

[Andriasov]

I hope that the film will be made, it will be interesting to watch..

[Sea snake]

Quote: tracer

Something happens to a Russian person when it’s really .. screw, “no joke here.” No one is “joking” and you yourself understand that neither I nor my friend will ever leave or retreat. Anyone who knows this feeling will understand me.

These are the words of the Taliban Mujahideen about our guys in Afghanistan. To his words about FAITH, I want to add that the Afghans fought for THEIR land.
Our Panfilov heroes also defended THEIR land... and also with FAITH! With faith for the bright future of our children, grandchildren, mothers and wives..... for us! Happy memory to the HEROES!!!
And from the video... just draw a parallel... yes, and just interesting... about RUSSIAN soldiers.

[KG_patriot_last]

Don't send Panfilov to the 8th Guards Rifle Division! The Kyrgyz and Kazakhs do not remember them in order to hear unfounded accusations that the division was not there at all.

It is clear that there is no reliable information, that there were more than 28 heroes. That all of them together were able to provide such resistance on their sector of the front that Moscow survived. This is all clear. What is not clear is the contempt with which they write about the 28 heroes... If you think like this, then in your opinion it turns out that there were no heroes at all during the Second World War?

But there is no reliable information, because this is war. This is not a film where your heroism can be witnessed by anyone who watches the film from many angles.

And the fact that there are 28 and 50 tanks is propaganda. Without propaganda and raising the spirit, the USSR would have raised its paws up and into the oven towards the Germans. And 70 years later, judging who is who while lying on the sofa using pieces of paper... This is low.

28 Panfilov men are a symbol. Like the tomb of the unknown soldier. Let them make a patriotic film. Let children see heroes. Personalized heroes. They see the brotherhood and friendship of peoples. And they listen less to skeptics and anti-propagandists, for whom heroes do not exist and there is lies and shame all around. So that later they will not hear enough and become disillusioned with their ancestors, country and Motherland.

Glory to the Hero of the Soviet Union Duishenkul Shopokov! Glory to the Heroine of Social Labor Kerimbubu Shopokova!

[Ram chandra]

I am proud of my Kazakhs! for the Kyrgyz and Russian brothers! Especially for comrade Bauyrzhan Momyshuly. http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B0%D1%83%D1%8B%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D

0%9C%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%8B%D1%88%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8B
“During the second general offensive of the Wehrmacht on Moscow from November 16 to 18, 1941, the battalion of senior lieutenant Bauyrzhan Momysh-uly, separated from the division, heroically fought on the Volokolamsk highway near the village of Matryonino.
The skillful leadership of the battalion commander made it possible to delay the Nazis at this point for 3 days. After which Senior Lieutenant Momyshuly brought the battalion out of the encirclement combat-ready.
The heroic combat path of the battalion under the command of Bauyrzhan Momyshuly is described in the artistic and historical book of Alexander Bek “Volokolamsk Highway.”
And as for the number 28 - perhaps these are those who remained alive from the original composition.

[Alex96]

Guys, what a stupid debate. Honor and praise to such heroes! And you....

[Sage]

Feat WAS, and far from alone. And thanks to such guys and their commanders, we can all talk now.

[vovan50]

We have a glorious history, we should make films and not remake them. Not about the swindlers and bandits who are in power (I'm tired of it), but about real exploits. The film can be a documentary, for those who are interested in history, but it is better to make a feature film, for young people and for those who fought. Let there be fiction, let there be 28 Panfilov men, but the film should be no worse than about 300 Spartans. The film should show the greatness of our soldiers, should unite us on the basis of common misfortune and common victory, serve as an example for young people and intimidation for those who are constantly making plans for the destruction and destruction of our Motherland!

[Bekzat]

For Vovan, + Dear you!!!

[Bekzat]

Greetings to everyone, I read the article and comments, I agree with Lopatov, what difference does it make NOW whether 28 Panfilov’s men were discussed or not, the main thing is that the division stopped a strong, experienced enemy, I remember a film shot at the Kazakhfilm film studio, and so there General Panfilov tears the map in half and in Kazakh he says “You can’t retreat, Moscow is behind you.” And if these so-called “myth busters” insist that this did not happen, then they are corrupt skins, feeding on the West, whose goal is to break the union, a strong union, of once close peoples. THE 28 Panfilov men THEN WERE NEEDED LIKE AIR BY THE DEFENDING SOVIET PEOPLE, otherwise they would not have survived. And it doesn’t matter who served in that division, Russians, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, they all considered each other brothers, comrades who would help, cover each other, and even die for each other!!! ETERNAL GLORY TO THE HEROES!!! NOT ONLY TO PANFILOV'S PEOPLE, BUT TO ALL WHO FIGHTED, RETURNED, AND FALLED!!! EVERLASTING MEMORY!!!

[Quiet]

Quote: KBPC50

Toad mouths for the money of the people, the state

PEOPLE talk about "ephemeral butterflies" as in the song "The Cavalry Guard's age is short-lived"!!!!

At JSC NPP "Zvezda" they are robbing workers!!! The management steals outright.... Well, how do those who churn out catapults work??? Right... For the sake of conscience, but soon there will be an explosion like at SALYUT...

[Nikolay499]

The film, of course, is good, but it wouldn’t hurt to give Panfilov’s soldiers and cadets a human burial. And then 70 years of books, movies, stories, and just like all the losses of the division were missing in action, they are still listed to this day. Those 28 heroes are not in that grave at the Dubosekovo junction. This is true. But this in no way detracts from the feat of the division’s fighters. Not individual fighters, but all those who did not let the tanks through. Despite the mistakes of the generals. On November 16, 1941, Rokossovsky and Zhukov, in a most mediocre offensive, destroyed 1 tank, 2 cavalry divisions and a reinforced battalion of a cadet regiment. The tanks simply got stuck in the swamps, the cavalrymen could not fight on unshod horses. Look in the graves of the Volokolamsk region for those killed from these units and you will not even find traces. Battalion 1075 of the Lysenko Rifle Regiment died in Ostashovo, fighting off German tanks with only two guns, but again only a few of the dead were immortalized on their graves. Isn’t it time to put the names of all those who died and disappeared on the tombstones of military burials? Why in Vladychino, where, logically, the soldiers of 1077 joint ventures fell, out of 700 buried, only a hundred have names? Why in Yaropolets, out of 800, only 250 are named, and yet that reinforced battalion of Kremlin cadets who fell in the mediocre attack on Parfenkovo ​​was buried there, but their names are not there. Why? Why do the 550 nameless still not have their names to this day? This is what we should make a movie about! About our indifference to the fallen! No other country in the world has such an attitude towards those who died for their Motherland!

[grafrozow]

You will run into unfortunate patriots, they don’t need such truth. It’s easier when the heroes are mediocrity. One “great commander”, four times hero of the USSR L.I. Brezhnev and his Malaya Zemlya are worth something.

[rodevaan]

Quote: Nikolay499

... Why? Why do the 550 nameless still not have their names to this day? This is what we should make a movie about! About our indifference to the fallen! No other country in the world has such an attitude towards those who died for their Motherland!

Well, the cart is going downhill!
Kolya, let’s no longer sputter with righteous saliva and talk about long-outdated stereotypical nonsense of the 90s about how our soldiers were not spared in droves, but with them everything is supposedly “gorgeous and wonderful”! Because all this is already quite boring! Let's look at things seriously and objectively:

1. Firstly, let me note that certain gentlemen on the forum are praying and bruising their foreheads at the supposed “German pedantry”, branding the supposed “Russian sloppiness” in the matter of accounting for combat losses of personnel during the war! I must say that the Soviet accounting of losses was many times more accurate and better than the German one! German losses were more or less well taken into account only in the first 2-3 years of the war, when the situation for the fritzoids was more or less favorable, as soon as the bastards began to be beaten, the accounting and statistical order of the Nazis collapsed in the same way as their vaunted Wehrmacht. Suffice it to say that from mid-1944 and throughout 1945, enemy losses were no longer taken into account at all, and how many of them were crushed by Red Army tanks on the approaches to Berlin can only be guessed at and can only be determined very approximately. Next, who kept track of losses among the motley crowd of elderly Volkssturm soldiers, boys from the Hitler Youth, police, RAD members (imperial labor service) and other auxiliary organizations and just ordinary non-combatants, hastily formed and thrown under Soviet tanks? Who counted these losses? And these are not combat units, but ordinary untrained militia, which were destroyed in large numbers in the very first battles. I saw only extremely approximate and very conditional data on accounting for German losses for the middle of 44 and 45.
2. Further, gentlemen, who squeal that “in only one country in the world and only in our country are there only nameless and forgotten warriors” and so on. Sorry, what nonsense is this? There is TsAMO, and there are resources and databases such as obd-memorial.ru and podvignaroda.ru which contain a lot of information and name lists of dead and missing soldiers and officers of the Red Army and Navy, as well as about places from burials and memorials and mass graves and information about the awarding of medals and orders during the Second World War, with award certificates and descriptions of feats and merits! These online projects have no analogues in the world, and in addition, they show that the accounting of losses in the Red Army was kept quite scrupulously and informatively in light of the unfavorable and terrible conditions on the fronts at that time. I personally found comprehensive information about my great-uncle, about whom initially they only knew that he went missing somewhere in 1942 near Velikiye Luki, but it turned out that he fought in the 275th Infantry Regiment, 117th Infantry Division, and died on November 20.11.1943. 275 in the Nevelsky district of the Pskov region on the northern shore of the lake. Ezerische during the liberation of the village of Zui-Shmotki, was buried after the battle near the village of Loktevo, and after the war he was reburied in the village. Lobki of the Lobkovskaya volost in a mass grave at the local cemetery. Of course, sloppiness is everywhere and during the reburial a mistake was made since Loktevo was confused with the more northern village of Loktevo and he was immortalized on another memorial. BUT! Initially, according to the combat report of the losses of the XNUMXth regiment, the place of battle, death, and burial was indicated precisely! And what does this mean? Is this how they “did not take into account losses”? Nonsense and liberoid bullshit. Can anyone show me a similar online project from the Nazis? I haven’t seen it - if anyone provides a link, I’ll take a look out of curiosity.

[rodevaan]

3. Next, regarding mass graves during the war. What does a mass grave look like at that time and under those conditions? Ask search engines. In conditions when the unit is engaged in stubborn offensive/defensive battles and has neither the time, nor the strength, nor the ability to bury it properly with all civil honors and funeral music. Often it is just a crater, trench or pit in which bodies were hastily buried and covered with earth. They quickly built a cross, attached a sign where they could write names/surnames with a chemical pencil, and the unit moved on. Or they were buried by locals, in the same way. After a year or two there was almost nothing left of such a grave. This is how, unfortunately, the overwhelming majority were buried, and everyone was buried - both ours and the Fritzes. Often they buried everyone mixed together. To bury it properly, as I already said, in those terrible conditions, there was neither time, nor strength, nor opportunity. Neither ours nor the fascists. Therefore, making complaints about this is unfounded.

4. Next - regarding the identified-unnamed remains at the memorials. As I said above, in general regional memorials, reburials were made of their various mass graves, scattered throughout the volost or region during the front-line period, and the identification of the remains was made only on the basis of reports on the losses of units and the places of their original burials after the battle. Each regiment had its own cemetery. Based on this, the found grave of a regiment from a small regional village was transferred to a general memorial and the lists of the dead were immortalized. Based, again, on the report about the losses of the regiment and the original burial place. Therefore, 100% burial of even an immortalized warrior on a common memorial is conditional. Perhaps his remains are there, perhaps not. But what about the unknown graves of front-line soldiers found? What if this common grave was discovered by chance during construction or plowing work? It is no longer possible to establish the names of these soldiers, and according to reports they could not find this grave either. Therefore, the remains were reburied at the general memorial, but remained nameless. The soldiers were lucky, who were found by search engines and identified by medallions or miraculously surviving documents, but this is rather an exception to the rule.

Of course, all this is terrible. But there was such a time. There were such conditions. There was such a war. And it is unknown whether they could have acted differently under those conditions.

[rodevaan]

And in the end, damn!
Enough of this stupid and stupid squealing about your own supposed “worthlessness”! Enough of this degenerative idiocy imposed on us by stupid Westerners!
Representatives of the Great Nation, which crushed all the enemies of the Russian land, and you behave like boring old women on a bench!

[grafrozow]

[quote=rodevaan]And in the end, damn!
Enough of this stupid and stupid squealing about your own supposed “worthlessness”! Enough of this degenerative idiocy imposed on us by stupid Westerners!

stupidity cannot be cured

[kirpich]

I don't want to blame anyone
I've had a lot in this life.
But if they bully Russia
I'll just come over and give it to you.

[Nikolay499]

Here's the movie. It’s true that it’s better to watch it from the third minute. This film was shot in the year of the 70th anniversary of the Battle of Moscow. This is the reality of our attitude towards the dead. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzZX023Gfcw
They were heroes. One of those buried in this grave had a reservation, but left as a volunteer, leaving his wife and two small children, because he believed that his combat experience in the war with the Finns would help save those who had not yet smelled gunpowder. A week before his death, he was awarded the rank of officer.

[Karimov Glory]

I agree 100% with Ulan. Let me also speak on this issue. 28 Panfimlovites are one of the cornerstones of the feat and heroism of the Soviet people. Tell me now that there was no such episode, and what will the younger generation think? Ah, it turns out there was nothing! Or maybe there was no heroism, but they won thanks to penal battalions and barrier detachments? No, you cannot destroy such “myths” as the 28 Panfilov men, A. Matrosov, Captain Gastello, Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya and others. And the fact that Nikolai499 writes about forgotten heroes is a question for the current authorities. By the way, about forgotten heroes. Nikolai Sirotinin, artilleryman of the 55th infantry regiment of the 6th infantry division, is quite worthy to become on a par with Matrosov and other heroes, but his name is not widely heard. I propose to make a film about his feat.

[grafrozow]

I understand you this way - people don’t need the truth, they’ll make do with myths. Or should we still tell the truth?

[Karimov Glory]

Now it’s time to subvert the “myths” of the Soviet period of history, in particular, the Great Patriotic War. Either Sailors allegedly could not physically close the bunker, then “was Horovets the only one who shot down 9 planes, and were they shot down at all?”, then Panfilov’s men interfered with someone. I believe that it is no longer possible to eliminate such symbols as Susanin, Vasilisa Kozhina, and our heroes, including the 28 Panfilovites. If such heroes are debunked, what will be left, what to be proud of, what examples to learn from? They are calling to name the names of real heroes, but who will name them? I have already given an example of one of them, but how many people know about him? Yes, there is a monument at the site of the battle, there is a memorial plaque in Orel, but on an all-Russian scale it is almost unknown. Therefore, I doubt that instead of the "designated" heroes, as some people call them, others will appear, and as a result a void will remain. As a result, subsequent generations will believe that Russians are drunkards, quitters and unworthy of being called civilized people. And in general, that the feat of 28 did not happen is not yet a proven fact. And more about myths. American pilot Colin Kelly did not perform the feat for which he was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross, but will the Americans agree to debunk this myth? To summarize: I, of course, am for historical truth, but the country also needs heroes.

[rodevaan]

Yes, it’s fashionable now to denigrate the Russian Soldier - it’s simply fashionable! This is so “Western”, so “modern” - that is, like a bull! After all, the holy “truth” is published in the West, while they eat their own foreign slop about Russian history and rejoice, spitting on their own country. Part of an overseas plan to destroy our Russian population.
Gastello’s feat also “didn’t happen”, the Battle of Kulikovo also “didn’t happen”. They “pelted them with corpses” during the Second World War, they didn’t know how to fight, they killed 100500 billion and all that. This gray nonsense from the screens of the central TV of the liberoid bastard is already indescribably easy to get!

When the country removes the pro-Western garbage that fills the heads of our people with anti-Russian Mr., only then will national self-awareness finally appear in the country.

[Nikolay499]

Quote: rodevaan

Well, the cart is going downhill!
Kolya, let’s no longer sputter with righteous saliva and talk about long-outdated stereotypical nonsense of the 90s about how our soldiers were not spared in droves, but with them everything is supposedly “gorgeous and wonderful”! Because all this is already quite boring! Let's look at things seriously and objectively:

I believe, young man, that you are completely off topic. And while stoically talking about the heroism of others, for some reason they themselves hide in an unheroic manner behind an impersonal nickname. For your information, I was directly involved in the creation of the resources you indicated, namely the OBD Memorial and the Feat of the People. And I am a frequent visitor to TsAMO. Therefore, I know history not from someone else’s reasoning, but from documents. Look up reports in the OBD about the irretrievable losses of the 316th Infantry Division (8th Guards Infantry Division) and you will see that almost all of Panfilov’s men are listed as missing. We are now trying to at least approximately determine the place of departure of two fighters (1073sp and 1075sp) who are listed as missing in action, in order to immortalize their names through the courts on the mass graves of those places. Fortunately, no one knows how many remains are buried in these graves. You are also mistaken in that no one buried the dead. Panfilov’s men, in particular, were buried by local residents, as were those cadets in the grave in the video I shot. And if you found your relative in the OBD, this does not mean at all that his name is currently on the burial site. When mass reburials were carried out, many of the dead were simply crossed off the lists; they were not even among the nameless. I have real examples of this. And total losses are not calculated by corpses on the battlefield, but somewhat differently. As an example, the ratio of dead and wounded in the Oryol offensive operation from July 12 to August 18, 1943, ours 430 thousand, the Germans 89 thousand. This does not indicate the inability of soldiers to fight, but the stupidity of the generals. I have evidence to the contrary, that the Soviet people fought well when their superiors did not interfere with them. Why go far away from the Brest Fortress? Panfilov’s men fought well precisely because Rokossovsky did not interfere with the actions of Panfilov, who was an excellent commander and competently built a defense system. You should read the report of the battalion commander of the 1073rd infantry regiment Momysh-Ula, but not from the book Volokolamsk Highway, but from the document in TsAMO. You will get to know the war from a slightly different perspective. That report was written in December 1941, and there is no literary far-fetchedness in it. I think that the soldiers who died for us today deserve to have their names inscribed on mass graves. This is a small fraction of what we must do for them. How did it happen that the mass grave in the video for 70 years did not have any list of those buried in it? I gave you real facts without a single reference to someone’s far-fetched opinion. Everything stated is taken from documents. Therefore, try to write not only slogans, but also provide links where do your conclusions come from? From what documents?

[rodevaan]

So. Well - first I must say that I am very pleased to see a person who took part in such projects as OBD and Feat of the People. Without further ado, I want to express my deep gratitude to you personally for taking part in this great and holy cause! I wish you all the best and good luck in this life! Thanks to this project, I found a lot of information about my relatives who died in the war, and found award sheets with descriptions of the merits for which they were awarded!

Well, now for the actual answer.
1. Actually, you throw around slogans, and that’s why I gave you a detailed answer. If there were no slogans, there would be no answer. “No other country in the world has such an attitude towards those who died for their Motherland!” - your phrase. I answered you in detail that everyone had such an attitude towards those who fell in that war, both ours and the fascists, because such conditions existed. I also gave you an example, without quotes or references, that in mid-late 1944 and in 1945, no records were kept of losses among Reich soldiers, because there was general confusion and they had no time for losses. If you have real refutations of this, proving that “they” buried everyone, took care and did everything to keep track of their dead, or subsequently created some kind of data bank - take the trouble to write to me. If you are a specialist who deeply and scrupulously deals with this topic, this will not be a problem for you. And if this example is correct and really convincing, then I will agree with you. Moreover, as a person who is interested in this topic, it will be very interesting for me to see this example. In fact!
2. Further, I did not quite understand the statement where I wrote that “no one buried the dead.” Read my answer above and look for this phrase. If you carefully re-read my post again, you will understand its main essence. I wrote and insisted not about what was not buried, but precisely about what exactly was buried! Either the unit in which the soldier served or local residents were buried. And since you are a frequent visitor to TsAMO and work with reports, you know very well that the reports correctly indicate the places of the original burials. I do not undertake to judge the veracity of ALL reports, but those reports that I needed - directly from my relatives - there the place of the original burial is indicated correctly. Further, I draw information not from fiction, and not from modern television, but from various sources, in particular from reports, if any become available to me, from official literature, in particular “1941. Lessons and Conclusions”, there are other literature. Whenever possible, I communicate with veterans who were eyewitnesses or personally knew eyewitnesses of certain events. I can find neutral and unbiased information if I need it, in particular, I can contact TsAMO if necessary. It is very strange that you write me a response, essentially retelling the same thing that I already indicated earlier - regarding burials. The point is to retell to me what I have already written about.
3. Next, according to the links - what links should you provide? About whom? According to my family, or what? How did I determine the location of the last battle and the last burial? And how did I determine the error in perpetuation and actual burial? I have all this data. If you have worked in the ObD, and especially in TsAMO, then they will not be new to you. Provide these links?
4. Next - regarding the impersonal nickname and slogans. I can introduce myself if you want to communicate by name, first name or patronymic. It’s not difficult for me, I’m not one of those who hide. It’s just a custom here that all participants write under some nickname. Regarding slogans - I’ll ask you to give an example - where I threw slogans and I will give a specific transcript of each example of my statement.

I am waiting for your detailed answer.

[grafrozow]

Go, our “patriot,” to Germany and look at the graves of Soviet soldiers, you will have something to compare with. What are the monuments there, how do those who remain live, do you know? My grandfather is a disabled war veteran, fought at Stalingrad, died in 1999 without knowing , what is a warm toilet. Yes, can you tell me where the disabled war veterans disappeared from the streets in 1947? Ask who drove them into camps, the Americans? And did the Jews send thousands of our prisoners from German concentration camps to ours in Kolyma? What do you know about the war, besides official communist propaganda? What about your “no one is forgotten and nothing is forgotten”? And stop labeling everyone who disagrees with you, the painfully familiar vocabulary reminds something of a party meeting. No one denigrates the feat of the Soviet People, you’re just tired of your nonsense, but you can’t tell the truth, because it’s a terrible truth. The defenders of the Brest Fortress are HEROES, but why was the captain in charge of the defense, where were the division commanders, corps commanders? Read Soviet sources, how many of our troops were in the area before June 22 Brest. Just one request - calm down, while I was reading your comas, I cleaned the monitor twice with a napkin, goodbye. Alexander.

[rodevaan]

You tell me to calm down, but you yell at the monitor like a victim. To whom and where did I hang labels, give me a quote?

[grafrozow]

[Quote] [/ quote]

When the country removes the pro-Western garbage that fills the heads of our people with anti-Russian Mr., only then will national self-awareness finally appear in the country.[/quote] Moronism cannot be cured

[Nikolay499]

In general, to sum up the short discussion, the conversation turned out to be completely empty. No one was indignant at the fact that on the mass grave shown in the video there is not even a sign like: Glory to the fallen heroes! Not to mention lists. And this is a real example! Everyone talks a lot about memory, but they just say nothing more. That’s why Panfilov’s men have been lying nameless for 70 years and will lie there for hundreds more. It’s strange that 3 feature films have been made about the Kremlin cadets, one documentary and a book written, but they lie like this without names or ranks in a ravine... You can make a hundred films about Panfilov’s men, but what does that mean for our real, not ostentatious, respect for them? change? Patriotism must be cultivated precisely through respect for one’s heroic ancestors who died for our Motherland. And not on far-fetched plots, but on stories such as the history of this grave. Villages are dying, mass graves are dying along with them, memories are erased. And the West has nothing to do with this. In Germany, too, they treat the graves of our soldiers and, in general, the memory of them much better than we do in Russia (this is from my own experience). In the Voskresensky district of the Moscow region, all military graves of soldiers who died in hospitals were completely destroyed. And now all inquiries are answered that they had no battles, and therefore there are no burials of the dead. At our monuments at mass graves they practice shooting with pump-action shotguns. As an example, at the same memorial complex in Dubosekovo, dedicated to the feat of 28 Panfilov men. We also had to renew the monument to the Panfilov sappers who died in Strokovo, due to the fact that it was completely riddled with bullets. Just recently (a week ago) I talked with members of the Dozor search team, who in the late 80s crawled throughout the Volokolamsk region, collecting information from eyewitnesses about burials. They described about 150 unregistered military graves (now there are about 70 graves in the region), handed them over to the military registration and enlistment office, where these documents were safely burned. Actually, that burial in Vladychino for 700 dead was established by this detachment. It is surprising that a manure storage facility was built next to the grave, the sewage from which flowed into this mass grave... This is what our real attitude towards the heroic past looks like. Lots of talk, slogans and NOTHING real! I'm no longer participating in the discussion! I don't see the point in this.

[rodevaan]

Quote: Nikolay499

In the Voskresensky district of the Moscow region, all military graves of soldiers who died in hospitals were completely destroyed. And now all inquiries are answered that they had no battles, and therefore there are no burials of the dead. At our monuments at mass graves they practice shooting with pump-action shotguns. As an example, at the same memorial complex in Dubosekovo, dedicated to the feat of 28 Panfilov men

- Well, I didn’t know that, very interesting!

[chenia]

Quote: Nikolay499

As an example, the ratio of dead and wounded in the Oryol offensive operation from July 12 to August 18, 1943, ours 430 thousand, the Germans 89 thousand. This does not indicate the inability of soldiers to fight, but the stupidity of the generals. I have evidence to the contrary, that the Soviet people fought well when their superiors did not interfere with them.

And where do you get these numbers? But that’s why the Germans, after such successes, rolled back to the west (the magnetic anomaly is probably to blame, the compass showed incorrectly).

And the fact that after three months our Kyiv was liberated and the Germans did not hold such a line as the Dnieper - is this the result of their loss of three tanks in the Battle of Kursk? And if you remember the beginning of 44, when we rolled out to the border (and I’m not even talking about summer). Where are their minimum losses, where are their saved reserves?

Well, our generals are always stupid, but what about their sharp generals? The Battle of Kursk for the Germans was an attempt to break through a concrete wall with their head, behind which there was an armor plate.

[Nikolay499]

[quote=chenia]
And where do you get these numbers? But that’s why the Germans, after such successes, rolled back to the west (the magnetic anomaly was probably to blame, the compass showed incorrectly). [quote]
Study history from documents! On July 25, the fascist regime in Italy fell. Hitler needed additional troops in the Balkans. By that time, all of Germany's resources had already been used. For this reason, the offensive near Kursk was postponed from May to July, because the industry did not have time to produce the required number of new tanks. (But even in this case, as the history of the Tigers and Panthers showed, it was not enough to break through the Soviet defense.) In addition, in 1943, massive bombing of Germany by allied aircraft began, which did not contribute to the strengthening of production and human potential. Therefore, in order to cover Germany from the south, it was decided to withdraw some forces from the Eastern Front. And already on July 26, the Germans began to withdraw their troops in order to level the front line and free up some of their forces for the Balkans. Simply put, Germany was already exhausted by that time. Its industry could no longer compensate for the losses at Kursk in a short period of time. And the USSR easily compensated for its colossal losses by increasing its industrial potential, plus supplies from its allies. Germany no longer had a chance to win. And the Soviet soldier no longer looked like a 41-year-old soldier.

[Nikolay499]

And to compare the skills of the generals, study how the Germans took Kyiv, and then we liberated them.

[rodevaan]

Quote: grafrozow

stupidity cannot be cured

- If you look more closely at what is being done in life and in the media, then yes, there is a lot of imbecility, which still needs a lot of work.

[grafrozow]

A simple example, in the spring they sent a team of Tajiks to work with us, the facility is in the tundra, the snow is melting and clearings have appeared. In general, this is not an acquired taste, but last year’s lingonberries remain under the snow, they become softer and sweeter. A friend and I collected a jar, and in the evening one Tajik, he spoke Russian, he tells us, today we watched you collect something from the snow and eat, are you saving money for the canteen? We tried to explain to him that these were vitamins, they were good for us, but it didn’t get through. Imagine what he would tell about us at home. We had them for a month, they managed to kill everyone, it looks like they weren’t Koreans, but they ate two dogs. They wouldn’t make it a hundred meters to the toilet, sorry. ..and their own trailers. In the bathhouse, the bastards, they broke the ball valves; they didn’t know how to open them, and a lot of other things. What am I doing all this for? Our leadership, out of fucking economy, takes this workforce, and then cries, almost everything they did had to be redone, but now for us. It’s all a mess.... There’s a year left until retirement, and everything is already like that...

[rodevaan]

Quote: grafrozow

A simple example, in the spring they sent a team of Tajiks to work with us, the facility is in the tundra, the snow is melting and clearings have appeared. In general, this is not an acquired taste, but last year’s lingonberries remain under the snow, they become softer and sweeter. A friend and I collected a jar, and in the evening one Tajik, he spoke Russian, he tells us, today we watched you collect something from the snow and eat, are you saving money for the canteen? We tried to explain to him that these were vitamins, they were good for us, but it didn’t get through. Imagine what he would tell about us at home. We had them for a month, they managed to kill everyone, it looks like they weren’t Koreans, but they ate two dogs. They wouldn’t make it a hundred meters to the toilet, sorry. ..and their own trailers. In the bathhouse, the bastards, they broke the ball valves; they didn’t know how to open them, and a lot of other things. What am I doing all this for? Our leadership, out of fucking economy, takes this workforce, and then cries, almost everything they did had to be redone, but now for us. It’s all a mess.... There’s a year left until retirement, and everything is already like that...

So, instead of whining here and complaining how bad and terrible everything is (and this canism is present on all forums, about how bad it is for all of them), it’s better to be a normal and adequate person in all situations. And if everyone in their place is such a person, the problems in the country and in their personal lives will immediately become much less!
You can’t re-educate others, and just because you go to a forum and start lamenting there, you know, nothing will be solved either. Wow, really start already.....

[Duelist]

Excellent article, about real Heroes!
My father-in-law fought near Moscow, he was a most humble man, not a word about the war - the memories are a continuous wound, tears welled up in this kindest man. And how he fought - his chest was covered in medals! Glory and memory to the Heroes!

[vdubcik]

thanks to the author for the article
Eternal memory to them