Military Review

Twenty eight. It is more than arithmetic

416

Recently, the 28 Panfilov theme has become very popular. The reason for this was the attempt by a group of enthusiasts, tired of the mud of the war, made by eminent creators with state money, to create a film about the legendary feat of the junction Dubosekovo.


A good idea - and deserving of a good implementation. But enthusiasts didn’t have time to start collecting money for the filming, as “historical objectivists "raised a muddy wave:" there was no such feat, the reporter invented everything !!! ". Although there is a huge distance between the reporter’s invention and the lack of feat, and one does not follow from the other.

So let's try to look, at least superficially, at who the Panfilov members are, what happened under Dubosekovo.

... A division was formed that received the 316 number in Alma-Ata after the start of the war. Formed it for a month from the Russian and Kazakhs, in the bulk did not even pass the military service. That is, in fact, from recruits who had neither combat experience nor military training.

At the completion of the formation, the division was transferred by rail near Novgorod, to the most intense at that moment North-West direction. But a month later, due to the outbreak of the Germans on Moscow (Operation Typhoon), the 316 Division was transferred to the central area. October 5 began the transfer, and October 12 division was unloaded near Volokolamsk, where she began to prepare its defensive line within the Mozhaisk line of defense. The total length of this boundary, from the Bolychevo state farm to the village of Lvovo, was 41 km.

Here you need to make a small digression. According to the tactical instructions and military views adopted on the 1940 in the Red Army, the rifle division should have received a defensive line in 6-8 km in defense and 10-12 km in the secondary direction in the direction of the main attack of the enemy. The 316 Division, unstretched, of the recruits who did not have the full roster, received a lane in 41 km. And this is in the direction of the main attack. That is, the length of the front of the division in 5 (!) Was more than the normative, and for each kilometer of the front there were fewer soldiers and fire weapons in 5 than was considered necessary to create a sufficiently strong defense.

The lack of guns in the Panfilov division itself (54 guns), on the one hand, was more than offset by the reinforcement units attached to them (another 141 gun). But, on the other hand, this reinforcement was greatly depreciated by the lack of ammunition. That is, in general, the defense, although very well-organized, was very "liquid", having several times less than it should be, the density of troops and fire weapons.

German troops, developing initial success, entered the Mozhaisk line of defense by October 15. In the Volokolamsk area, units of the 5th Army and 46th Motorized Corps were advancing. Against the 316th division were the German 2nd and 11th tank and 35th Infantry Division. All formations were perfectly armed and had great combat experience. The Germans expected to easily knock Panfilov’s off the line.

October 16 The 2 Panzer Division unsuccessfully attacked the left flank of the Panfilov division, the positions of the 1075 regiment. German attacks were repelled. October 17 was hit by a large force. In the course of several attacks, the Germans were able to advance literally a mile away, the defense of the Panfilovites resisted. On October 18, the Germans strengthened the attacking group even more and forced the 1075 regiment to withdraw. But the Germans were stopped by the heroic resistance of the artillery units and managed to reach only Ruza.

Total: in three days of fierce fighting, having a huge numerical and fire superiority and relying on complete air supremacy, the Germans managed to move only a few kilometers. Panfilov Division resisted.

Having failed on the left flank of the division, the Germans attacked the right, on the 1077 regiment, repeating the onslaught and on the left flank. The Germans again managed to advance slightly on both flanks. But again, they failed to overthrow the 316 division. Despite the hardest losses, the acute shortage of ammunition, the repeated superiority of the enemy, the Panfilov members continued to hold the front. Volokolamsk was left by them only at the end of October, when the Germans broke through in other areas and there was a threat of encircling the division.

What happened before Dubosekovo? The Germans, leading a swift (according to plans) attack on Moscow, managed to move less than two dozen kilometers along the Volokolamsk direction in half a month of fighting. And they got up, pulling up reinforcements and rear. 2 November front line stabilized.

Was this a feat?

Yes, it was generally a miracle.

When the thin-line division of recruits who lacked ammunition for a long time stopped at times a superior experienced enemy. And those recruits who, under a terrible onslaught, retreated on one day, firmly held their positions for the next.

... November 16 began the next phase of the German offensive. In this case, the German strike was a counter.

From the conversation between Stalin and Zhukov from November 10: “Shaposhnikov and I believe that we must thwart the enemy’s preparing strike with our preemptive counterstrikes. One counterstrike must be applied to bypass Volokolamsk from the north ... In the area of ​​Volokolamsk, use the right-flank formations of the Rokosovsky army, the tank division and the cavalry, which is located in the region of Klina. "

On November 15, the tank-cavalry group struck north of the positions of the 316 division. The impact of inexperienced and small parts, although it was an initial success, did not develop. November 16 was supposed to hit the 316 Division in support of the upcoming neighbors. And she was preparing to attack. But she was on the edge of the German strike.

At the time of the German strike, the neighbors of the Panfilov division were already in a desperate situation, and the division itself, which was about to attack, was struck at least three times by the superior forces of the enemy. 4-I tank group Wehrmacht rushed to Moscow.

In theory, with such introductory 316-division I should have been swept away immediately. Three Germans fell upon our division. The positions of the 1075 regiment stretched from the exit from Volokolamsk to the junction Dubosekovo. That is, one not fully equipped regiment had a larger front than it was supposed to in the defense of a full-fledged division. On the Novo-Nikolskoye (now Bolshoy Nikolskoye) -Dubosekovo section, that is, on the front in 4 km, the 2-th battalion of the 1075-th regiment defended. Actually, at Dubosekovo-Petelino, the 4 th company of the 2 battalion of the 1075 regiment, the one in which the political instructor, the legendary Klochkov, was, was holding the defense. That is, the company, which included less than a hundred and fifty soldiers, accounted for more than a kilometer of front in an open field.

The 1075 TD struck the positions of the 11 regiment. In this case, the main blow fell on the 2 th battalion. With the indicated density of defense, with such a difference in forces, it is impossible to hold a front with a counter strike. But the Panfilov Division held out. He stayed long, impossible for long hours and the 2 th battalion. The first blow of the Germans fought off. The second blow of the German Panzer Division crushed the battalion. But the units retreated with battles, with terrible losses, but delaying the enemy. A 4-20 man remained in the 25 th company. That is about one out of every six. The Germans from 16 to 20 November, for the 5 days of battles, managed to advance only to Nismeny, that is, to 12 km

It was during these battles that the division was awarded and became an example to follow. 17 November she was awarded the Order of the Red Banner, 18 November awarded the title of the Guard.

Were these battles heroic? Were the feat Panfilov?

Well, what else? What other name can you think of?

Well, now about the "yeah, but they were not 28, the journalist gave other details." Well, in reality, the feat never strictly coincides with newspaper descriptions in hot pursuit. Newspaper descriptions - this is not a report of the commission from headquarters.

Feat Panfilov - was.

Feat individual mouth - was.

And what about a journalist from the front line (from the front, not from the computer screen in a comfortable office! In the midst of a fierce battle, and not between coffee cups!) Did not accurately list the names - which, if not secret, matters in assessing the feat?

One way or another - the figure “28” is forever imprinted in our history.

And historical science is powerless here, not to mention arithmetic and statistics.

The fact that the Spartans in Thermopylae were not exactly 300, that the Phocians remained with them, the fact that the Persian forces of the Greeks exaggerated - did it somehow cancel the feat of the people who died for the freedom of their country and delayed their many times superior enemy?

The feat of the Panfilovs is greater than the feat of the ancient heroes. He is bigger because recruits committed it against the most experienced enemy, and not the recognized best warriors of their time. And these recruits fought from day to day, for months, becoming in a short time veterans, and then a guard.

And we are no longer given to know all the details of this feat, the feat of each company. And when it is not possible to find out all the facts - the legend remains.

But this legend is true, because it speaks of the real feat of real people.

Because no one invented German tanks. And in the capital of our country they were never seen, including because they were met by non-invented Panfilov members.

I personally want a film about Panfilovs to be made. And that it was a film about heroes whose glory is immortal. And no matter how many characters will be said in the film. It is important not to forget - the whole division was heroic. And such a division was not the only one in the Red Army.

And it was these heroes who died for the freedom of our country and our people, saved her.
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  1. Syrzhn
    Syrzhn 10 July 2013 07: 24 New
    80
    Toad’s mouths croaking about “unbelievable feat” - to choke on their own impurities.
    To the author of the article - Thank you!
    Film crew - Good luck!
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 10 July 2013 11: 17 New
      +7
      Toad mouths are
      Alexey Valeryevich Isaev
      Antisuvorov. The big lies of the little man. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2004. - 352 sec. - ISBN 5-699-05998-9 [1]
      Antisuvorov. Ten myths of the Second World War. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2004. - 416 sec. - ISBN 5-699-07634-4 [2]
      From Dubno to Rostov. - M .: AST Publishing House LLC: Transitkniga LLC, 2004. - 710 sec. - ISBN 5-17-022744-2 [3]
      1941: Fights in Ukraine. - M .: Publishing house "Strategy KM", 2004. - 80 sec. - ISBN 5-901266-01-3
      When the surprise was gone. The history of the Second World War, which we did not know. - M .: Eksmo, Yauza, 2005. - 479 sec. - ISBN 5-699-11949-3 [5]
      "Boilers" of the 41. The history of the Second World War, which we did not know. [3] - M .: Eksmo, Yauza, 2005. - 400 sec. - ISBN 5-699-12899-9 [6]
      George Zhukov. The last argument of the king. [4] - M .: Eksmo, 2006. - 480 sec. - ISBN 5-699-16564-9 [7]
      Isaev A.V. Berlin 45. Battles in the den of the beast. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2007. - 720 sec. - (War and we). - 10 000 copies. - ISBN 978 – 5 – 699 – 20927 – 9
      Stalingrad. There is no land beyond the Volga for us. [5] - M.: Yauza, Eksmo, 2008. - 448 sec. - ISBN 978-5-699-26236-6 [8]
      Isaev A.V., Drabkin A.V. June 22. Black day calendar. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2008. - 384 sec. - 978-5-699-27211-2
      Unknown 1941. Blitzkrieg stopped. - M .: Yauza; Eksmo, 2010. - 480 sec. - ISBN 978-5-699-41198-6
      etc.

      Ulanov Andrey Andreevich; Shein, Dmitry Vladimirovich.
      Order in the tank troops.
      The first T-34 and others

      Tactical Press Publisher G. Pernavsky

      The last series of books by Kolomiyets, Shein, Ulanov, Pasholok, etc.

      Dyukov, Alexander Reshideovich
      Dyukov A.R. The myth of genocide. Repressions of the Soviet authorities in Estonia (1940 — 1953) / Preface. S. Artyomenko. - M.: Alexey Yakovlev, 2007. - 138 sec. - 700 copies
      Djukov A. Deporteerimised Eestis: Kuidas see toimus tegelikult. - Tallinn: Tarbeinfo, 2009. - 206 sec. - 1000 copies
      Dyukov A.R. Secondary enemy. OUN, UPA and the solution of the "Jewish question". Monograph / Afterword. Yu. Shevtsova. - M .: Regnum, 2008. - 152 sec. - 2000 copies - ISBN 978-5-91150-028-3 about the book
      Dyukov A. R. Secondary Enemy: OUN, UPA and the Solution of the “Jewish Question”. - 2 ed., Rev. and add. - M.: “Historical Memory” Foundation, 2009. - 175 sec. - 1000 copies
      Dyukov A. The minor enemy: OUN, UPA and the solution of the "Jewish question" / Transl. from Russian by Marina Smolya; Conclusion by Yuriy Shevtsov. - Riga; Vilnius; Tallinn: Institute of European Studies, 2010. - 170 sec.
      Dyukov A. Who commanded the Soviet partisans. Organized chaos. - M .: "Veche", 2012. - 302 sec. - 2000 copies

      and with a dozen well-known and not-so-historians who warn-a frankly invented film can be harmful. Remove 28, remove about the entire division, about sappers, about the Ilyinsky line.


      and confronts these, as you said to the "frog's mouth" - Solonini and Rezun, but here you are with the half-educated Yulin.
      And now you have given money and are waiting for a better movie “BK”? But to hell with you, if they don’t steal, you will be bastards and a penal battalion, because our elite can’t shoot normally, because it’s commercially profitable to shoot about 28 with a scandal, and not about the whole division, there’s no reason for talent,
      and now minus, you’re my patriotic,
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 10 July 2013 11: 43 New
        +5
        Quote: Stas57
        a frankly invented film can be harmful. Remove 28, remove about the entire division, about sappers, about the Ilyinsky line.

        Entirely and fully support.
        1. user
          user 10 July 2013 16: 24 New
          +2
          Sorry to interrupt the speech where they brand all sold ..... \
          But there is an opinion that this is one of the first massive uses of anti-tank rifles, but the mistake was that the calculations were not covered by infantry (this is me about 28 Panfilov’s), with all the ensuing results. Those. the calculations of anti-tank rifles were simply knocked out, although the Germans also lost a lot of tanks. But ours learn quickly and this experience was also taken into account in the future.
      2. Gahprom
        Gahprom 10 July 2013 11: 54 New
        -1
        Stas, I will copy you if you do not mind

        I give a number of opinions
        Mr. Pernavsky, book publisher, Tactical Press (those that are the world of tanks)

        1. This is a myth, and the story of its creation is known.
        2. After his exposure at the end of the 40, they tried to merge him, but in the 60 he surfaced again.
        3. The history of this myth is dirty.
        4. This, of course, will be used by dirty tricks of all stripes.
        5. The creators of the film, however, clung to this myth and want only it.
        6. This myth obscures thousands of real stories worthy of adaptation and description.
        7. Not a penny to hackers. Down with the new Freedom Soldiers.
        8. To make a film based on this myth is the same as filming the myths about the bloody SMERSH or angels from penal battles.

        http://sirjones.livejournal.com/1770220.html


        A Dyukov, historian
        Yes, I completely agree.
        http://a-dyukov.livejournal.com/1329200.html
        The megasrach about the film about 28 Panfilov’s people (look at what’s going on in my previous post; sirjones’s even cooler) reminds me of the debate on the topic “SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Roman Shukhevych”. Shukhevych did not have such a title, which everyone who is interested in is well aware of. But at the same time, some anti-fascists have at least a little head count - they still, over and over again, voice the deliberate lie about the Hauptsturmführer. They so want. And fans of Shukhevych are only happy: due to the presence of deliberate lies, it is possible to present "false" data on the real crimes of Shukhevych and Co. Once lied, who will believe you?

        Here is the same trouble with the film. The creators want only myth, only hardcore. And how much dirt will be taken away after that the opponents will bring down the history of the Great Patriotic War, and how much a shock for the student will be to learn that the feat he saw is a lie; which means that there were no feats, all this is propaganda, but there were only penal battalions and detachments - and so, the creators of the film don't give a damn about it.

        UPD. Best, in my opinion, comment: Citizens seem to take simple unscrupulousness for cool political technology. We heard somewhere about the "mythology" and its "construction", but they think that it all comes down to "but let's take it, let’s lie." The main quality of the ideal victim of the wiring is not naivety, but it’s such a simple cunning and assurance that everyone else simply didn’t think of the ingenious scheme in one move.
        http://a-dyukov.livejournal.com/1329446.html?page=2


        Dmitry Shein, historian, author of works on tanks
        I will repeat to you, it’s not difficult for me: the campaign should not crumble to dust from a collision with the first page of Google. People want to believe in the reality of what they see on the screen. And if the screen reality of a well-known heroic myth does not withstand a clash with real reality, then this is not just a “creative failure”, it’s a blow to the audience’s worldview.
        That's why they and you (filmmakers) repeat - do not touch this particular myth, make a film about the battles of Ilyinsky! - but no, “Cinema should be a propaganda campaign, otherwise it’s worthless. I say it like a filmmaker” (c), and then long philosophical considerations from a broken trough: well, we don’t have a patriotic cinema, in a pen, not pays off?
        http://a-dyukov.livejournal.com/1329446.html?thread=35077670#t35077670

        And Isaev, a historian
        In general, I repeat: a film about this episode is wrecking and expanding the circle of people who know about the investigation, the Shutsman and others like him. Zhurny will drag fried masses to the masses for an informational occasion. Do we really need this?
        http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/arhprint/2490244
      3. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 10 July 2013 12: 01 New
        12
        stas57 "relate to toad mouths-
        Alexey Valeryevich Isaev "
        It is not clear to me that Isaev in all the books you have listed disproves the Panfilov’s feat? And even in the book "1941 Fights in Ukraine" hehe ... In the book "In Berlin 45" he also overthrew the Panfilov’s feat? Then why did you bring all his books? Although not all. So then he is a prolific author hehe ...
        I will add one more to your list: Another 1941 From the border to Leningrad / Alexey Isaev.-M.: Yauza: Eksmo, 2011.-416.: Ill .- (The war and us).
        True, he does not mention Panfilov’s book in this book, but I’ll add, so what difference does it make to heaps?
        1. Gahprom
          Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 03 New
          -5
          stas57 "relate to toad mouths-
          Alexey Valeryevich Isaev "
          It is not clear to me that Isaev in all the books you have listed disproves the Panfilov’s feat? And even in the book "1941 Fights in Ukraine" hehe ... In the book "In Berlin 45" he also overthrew the Panfilov’s feat? Then why did you bring all his books? Although not all. So then he is a prolific author hehe ...
          I will add one more to your list: Another 1941 From the border to Leningrad / Alexey Isaev.-M.: Yauza: Eksmo, 2011.-416.: Ill .- (The war and us).
          True, he does not mention Panfilov’s book in this book, but I’ll add, so what difference does it make to heaps?

          Chukchi is not a reader? (c)

          And Isaev, a historian
          In general, I repeat: the film about this episode is wrecking and expanding the circle of people who know about the investigation, the Shutsman and others like him. Zhurny will drag fried masses to the masses for an informational occasion. Do we really need this?
          http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/arhprint/2490244
      4. Ulan
        Ulan 10 July 2013 12: 05 New
        21
        And what not to shoot at all? Let us give up to the solonins, rezuns, brewers and Svanidzam?
        And why did you decide that Isaev and others, and not Solonin Svanidze and Co., were ranked among the "frog mouths" of Syrzhn?
        In my opinion, you turned everything inside out. I don’t know why you did it, but in my opinion it turned out a scam.
        1. Gahprom
          Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 14 New
          -5
          Is Ulan not a reader too?
          Take away 28, take off about the whole division, about sappers, about the Ilyinsky line.

          And why did you decide that Isaev and others, and not Solonin Svanidze and Co., were ranked among the "frog mouths" of Syrzhn?
          In my opinion, you turned everything inside out. I don’t know why you did it, but in my opinion it turned out a scam.

          I remind
          Toad’s mouths croaking about “unbelievable feat” - to choke on their own impurities.

          I am not Stas57, but I will answer:
          Each of these historians said -there was no feat 28was a feat of DIVISION, take off about it.
          But Solonin and Rizun are waiting for the movie and probably gave the money, then they will have fun and circulations, they are provided for debunking the feat, they are already rubbing their hands in a sweet foreboding
          1. Rider
            Rider 10 July 2013 12: 18 New
            14
            Quote: Gahpro
            Each of these historians said there was no feat 28, there was a feat DIVISION, clear about it.


            so why did you decide that taking off about 28 would forget about the division?

            that like "did not read, but condemn"
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 10 July 2013 12: 21 New
              -20
              Because they shoot about 28 panfilovtsev.
              1. Rider
                Rider 10 July 2013 12: 24 New
                +3
                Quote: Pimply
                Because they shoot about 28 panfilovtsev.


                can we wait for the movie, or at least the script?
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 10 July 2013 12: 32 New
                  -28
                  Here it is already. 28 panzfilovtsev. Ready-made heroics not related to reality. The invention of the journalist. And real heroes are replaced with lubok. It is one thing if it were immediately said that they were filming a myth. Or somehow it was indicated. But no. Here, you see, patriotism and historical truth. We supposedly had 28 Panfilov’s - and Nibet.
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 10 July 2013 12: 45 New
                    +9
                    Quote: Pimply
                    And real heroes are replaced with lubok.


                    so the film has already been released, and you know FSE
                    ?

                    Quote: Pimply
                    We supposedly had 28 Panfilov’s - and Nibet.


                    in NORMAL countries they do so, they protect the heroic past in every way, and if they do not, they invent it.
                    Moreover, LEGISLATIVE FORBIDDEN REVISION OF THE PAST.


                    and only to be found, various gahproms. which give the truth to the uterus.
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 01 New
                      -19
                      It is enough for me to look at what potential authors declare.

                      Quote: Rider
                      in NORMAL countries they do so, they protect the heroic past in every way, and if they do not, they invent it.
                      Moreover, LEGISLATIVE FORBIDDEN REVISION OF THE PAST.

                      Do you even know the wording of these laws, what exactly does this apply to, and in which countries?
                      1. Rider
                        Rider 10 July 2013 13: 06 New
                        +6
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Do you even know the wording of these laws, what exactly does this apply to, and in which countries?



                        don't you really know that?

                        nuuu something about Holocaust denial.
                        did not remember?
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 09 New
                        -15
                        I know. Do you know the wording of these laws, and understand what they refer to?

                        In Israel, the Holocaust Denial Act was passed in 1986. The term for “persons who publish written or verbal materials that deny or belittle the crime of acts committed against the Jewish people or against humanity during Nazi rule, in order to protect those who committed these crimes, or to express solidarity with them or sympathy for them ”according to article 2 of this law amounts to 5 years as in Germany. This law established three important enforcement restrictions:
                        Historical doubt or impartial scientific research, which aims to understand what was happening, albeit from positions different from generally accepted, is not a crime - in the absence of the goal of protecting Nazi criminals or expressing solidarity with them.
                        Similarly, under article 4 of the law, media representatives covering this issue are protected - if they describe it honestly and impartially without “expressing solidarity or sympathy for those who committed crimes against the Jewish people or against humanity”.
                        Only the Attorney General has the right to file an indictment under this article.

                        Is the difference in your approach and legal clear to you?
                      3. Rider
                        Rider 10 July 2013 13: 14 New
                        +5
                        Quote: Pimply
                        I know. Do you know the wording of these laws, and understand what they refer to?


                        Well, not in details, of course, but is not the Holocaust Denial a criminal offense?

                        in my opinion even a couple sat on it.
                        what is it if not LEGISLATIVE protection of one’s past?

                        Of course this is not a feat. but since there is not so much reason for pride (I do not say that they are not), and money is not unnecessary.

                        You see an example on the face.
                      4. Pimply
                        Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 25 New
                        -10
                        Is an. So no one perceives the total of the Second World War and the decisive role of the USSR in victory over Nazi Germany.

                        But you do not understand the difference - a review of the overall results, and consideration of particular cases. A special case says that there was no feat 28 Panfilovites. There was another feat, on a piece of paper, maybe looking less beautiful, but much more magnificent in its veracity. And you, fiercely fighting for lubok, betray the memory of more than a hundred people who died in battle on November 16 at this site.
                      5. Rider
                        Rider 10 July 2013 13: 35 New
                        +6
                        Quote: Pimply
                        And you, fiercely fighting for lubok, betray the memory of more than a hundred people who died in battle on November 16 at this site.


                        that's why you decided that if I am over 28, then against 100?
                        I am opposed to the DISAPPOINTERS OF MYTH.

                        to take the same rezun, he devoted a whole chapter to wrecking. and in the end said (briefly so) about the same as you.

                        so it turned out that in my mind I remember HOW NO HEROES WAS, but what was but others remained behind the scenes.
                      6. Pimply
                        Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 38 New
                        -16
                        Exactly. MYTH. Forgetting about real people. You stand for myth in return for truth.
                      7. Rider
                        Rider 10 July 2013 13: 47 New
                        +9
                        Quote: Pimply
                        You stand for myth in return for truth.


                        I stand for the myth TOGETHER WITH THE TRUTH, but not in the one where, rebuttal, mud-digging, and spitting.
                      8. Pimply
                        Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 50 New
                        -13
                        No. You stand for MYTH. Because the myth has long since closed the truth, and you do not want to see reality. What does not fit into the picture of a myth must be deleted from history.
                      9. Rider
                        Rider 10 July 2013 14: 40 New
                        +5
                        Quote: Pimply
                        No. You stand for MYTH.


                        what I stand for, I already said.
                        I will not be repeated.
                        Quote: Pimply
                        What does not fit into the picture of a myth must be deleted from history.


                        and this is your speculation.
                      10. sasha.28blaga
                        sasha.28blaga 11 July 2013 07: 36 New
                        +1
                        You already got truth-love, perhaps you need to be crossed out.
              2. Penachet
                Penachet 10 July 2013 21: 09 New
                20
                Fucking forum, do you all even think about what you are arguing about? Some deer press on the clave, and think that they are all smarter. I’m not only for the star of David on the flags, here ours are different. What difference does it make to you? What was the feat? 28 people, or a division (in which at that time 28 people may remain)? Feat was tchk. And not you, sick, discuss it! You can ban.
              3. sasha.28blaga
                sasha.28blaga 11 July 2013 07: 34 New
                +5
                Do not screw so much. No one forgets about the heroic feat of the entire Soviet people in the struggle against fascist Germany. But in order to educate patriotism and love for the homeland of youth, all methods are good. And if we consider that a lie in criminal proceedings is perceived as a way of protection, then God himself commanded to make positive oversights. And no one can convince me that the Feat of Panfilov was not. The fact that 28 Red Army men were able to repel three tank attacks of up to 60 tanks, while knocking out 28 tanks and dying, is this not true heroism.
            2. Ulan
              Ulan 10 July 2013 14: 48 New
              +1
              Not only the denial of the very fact of the Holocaust, but also of its scale. You say that not 6 million but 5 and you can safely dry crackers. And you can fit anything under the wording of the law here.
          2. Mercenary
            Mercenary 10 July 2013 20: 54 New
            +2
            we have already read how your honest Jews covered the South Ossetian war. Well, yes, of course, Israel did not fight in World War II. but just do you got your nationalism proud to yourself read disgusting
          3. Pimply
            Pimply 10 July 2013 21: 28 New
            -2
            Oh, about the Jews climbed. 8) But I was surprised - what took so long.
          4. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 11 July 2013 01: 14 New
            +1
            Quote: Pimply
            Oh, about the Jews climbed. 8) But I was surprised - what took so long.


            Until “boobs” and “homosexuals” were marked, it’s not shield! bully
  • sasha.28blaga
    sasha.28blaga 11 July 2013 07: 21 New
    +7
    You are in kind Pimpled ... You must have been beaten a lot in childhood. I read your comments sometimes I do not understand why you are being minus. And after this comment of yours, in any case, I will put cons in the future, and now he put it in a row and turned out to be the 13th. You like Baba Yaga are always against or in ambush.
    1. Konstantm
      Konstantm 11 July 2013 22: 27 New
      +3
      My grandfather was in that division. Unfortunately missing.
      http://www.obd-memorial.ru/html/info.htm?id=62122486
    2. cherkas.oe
      cherkas.oe 13 July 2013 20: 55 New
      0
      Quote: sasha.28blaga
      You are in kind Pimpled ... You must have been beaten a lot in childhood. I read your comments sometimes I do not understand why you are being minus.

      Do not worry, just Zelik here on the forum at work. There is such a job, it’s everywhere to spoil where you appear, that's why many people put minuses to him automatically and you came to this, congratulations. yes
    3. haron
      haron 15 July 2013 00: 10 New
      -2
      Quote: sasha.28blaga
      You are in kind Pimpled ..

      Well, you are in good nature. You must have been found in cabbage as a child, and that cabbage grew up in a kind of house ... let's come up with something else and come up with the truth. Can in the theory of relativity we invent a thread and try on this "theory" to fly to the stars ??? As, a lover of myths, faintly invent and build ... but can you jump from the balcony ako iron man ???
  • Uhalus
    Uhalus 12 July 2013 00: 03 New
    +2
    Actually, the article is just about the feat of the entire division. And “28 Panfilov’s” is a kind of topic mark (I forgot how it is called in a journalistic way). And indeed, no matter already, there were 20, 28 or 33, for example. The main thing is what exactly they did under such conditions ...
  • flint1309
    flint1309 16 July 2013 15: 51 New
    0
    She’s damn what Panfilov’s are there! Here are just three MERCAVES WHOLE ten Mujahideen Arabs flunked HERE !!! FEAT!!!
  • philippov
    philippov 10 July 2013 14: 12 New
    15
    Quote: Pimply
    Because they shoot about 28 panfilovtsev.


    No, they’re not shooting about 28 Panfilov’s men, they’re shooting about the ACTION of all Russian soldiers! And 28 Panfilov’s are just a small particle of the whole people, in which our Great People are reflected in a drop.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 13 New
      -14
      Yes? Read what the authors of the film wrote.
      If you shoot about the feat of all Russian soldiers - let them shoot about the feat, not claiming historicity.
      1. philippov
        philippov 10 July 2013 14: 22 New
        +9
        Quote: Pimply
        without claiming historicity.


        What historicity are we talking about in the movie "Saving Private Raina"?
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 41 New
          -9
          Not about any. They do not pretend to be historical truth; they clearly indicate themselves as feature films. Here is such a small difference.

          However, if you are not in the know, the story with Rain is largely true. This campaign was not, perhaps. But the Nilanda brothers were. Frederick - it was he who was sent away from the fighting - by then he managed to get the Bronze Star. At the time of sending, it was believed that all three of his brothers were killed, but his brother Edward, a former pilot, survived and was captured by the Japanese.
          1. Asan Ata
            Asan Ata 10 July 2013 23: 22 New
            0
            The Kulikovo battle, adored by all, was also like, but left no traces, and now what?
          2. gold
            gold 14 July 2013 09: 40 New
            +1
            the ball is already clever, drink the poison everyone feels better. I would look at you in that trench ...
      2. Uhalus
        Uhalus 12 July 2013 00: 25 New
        +2
        Sorry, Pupyrchaty, but you seem to have reported ... The feat of our soldiers is an undoubted story and fact! Everything, of course, was, but in the majority - it was a feat! And in this case - the undoubted historicity of the feat.
    2. Asan Ata
      Asan Ata 10 July 2013 23: 20 New
      18
      I object, not Russian, but Soviet. The general Panfilov’s division was an international, including my Kazakhs. By the way, tactics of small-scale combat against superior lieutenant Momysh Ula (commander of the 1073th Talgar Rifle Regiment of the 316th Rifle Division) are studied in all military academies of the world. It is about the Great Soviet People!
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 11 July 2013 01: 17 New
        +5
        Quote: Asan Ata
        I object, not Russian, but Soviet.


        No difference. Now any anti-Soviet, a priori-Russophobe.
        For the "West" it makes no difference, you Russian, or Kazakh, Jew or Nanae - will call - Russian.
        1. Ded_smerch
          Ded_smerch 11 July 2013 12: 30 New
          +8
          We are not writing for the West, but for our own people so that we must correctly speak. The Soviet soldier is a hero of the internationalist (a man of the Red Empire). Yes, there were a majority of Russians, but this does not beg the feat of the same Kazakhs.
      2. sasha.28blaga
        sasha.28blaga 11 July 2013 07: 39 New
        +7
        Well done Kazakh. We were friends with you in the army.
      3. Ded_smerch
        Ded_smerch 11 July 2013 12: 31 New
        +5
        Hello fellow countryman. I agree with your amendment.
      4. biznaw
        biznaw 11 July 2013 17: 30 New
        +1
        It’s really more correct to talk about the Soviet ones, there was such a nation before. We also remember the reeds, we read his book about the highway. He has no inventions, only correctly applied tactics of the times of gray-haired, during the invasions of the steppe, tactics of ambush and ambush were invented by ancestors.
      5. flint1309
        flint1309 16 July 2013 16: 02 New
        0
        That was right then, not Russian but Soviet! And not for fear, they didn’t go for multi-colored candy wrappers ... But for CONSCIENCE and for the MOTHERLAND !!!
    3. dastan13
      dastan13 12 July 2013 12: 38 New
      0
      corrective: "Soviet" soldiers
      Quote: philippov
      No, they’re not shooting about 28 Panfilov’s men, they’re shooting about the ACTION of all Russian soldiers!
  • Gahprom
    Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 30 New
    -5
    so why did you decide that taking off about 28 would forget about the division?


    The author was offered a VK, he categorically refused

    that like "did not read, but condemn"

    I read something more like yours
    1. Rider
      Rider 10 July 2013 12: 46 New
      +4
      Quote: Gahpro
      I read something more like yours


      Yes, I already understood, Reasonable Solonshchyna YOUR FSE.
      1. Gahprom
        Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 49 New
        -10
        Yes, I already understood, Reasonable Solonshchyna YOUR FSE.

        Do you speak with voices in your head?
        and therefore I bring Isaev and Dyukov here?
        Patriot from Topvar is always stupid ....
        1. Rider
          Rider 10 July 2013 12: 51 New
          +5
          Quote: Gahpro
          and therefore I bring Isaev and Dyukov here?


          first you bring not you.
          links to books are not posted by you.
          you just brought the OPINION of Isaev.

          Quote: Gahpro
          Patriot from Topvar is always stupid ..


          the faecal seeker looks even dumber.
          1. Gahprom
            Gahprom 10 July 2013 13: 02 New
            -10
            Quote: Rider
            the faecal seeker looks even dumber.

            I watch this crown relevant to you, indulge in?

            first you bring not you.
            links to books are not posted by you.
            you just brought the OPINION of Isaev.

            the patriotic patriot is also blind.

            Gakhprom Today, 11:54 ↑
            And Isaev, a historian
            In general, I repeat: a film about this episode is wrecking and expanding the circle of people who know about the investigation, the Shutsman and others like him. Zhurny will drag fried masses to the masses for an informational occasion. Do we really need this?
            http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/arhprint/2490244

            A Dyukov, historian
            Yes, I completely agree.
            http://a-dyukov.livejournal.com/1329200.html
            1. Rider
              Rider 10 July 2013 13: 10 New
              +7
              Quote: Gahpro
              the patriotic patriot is also blind.


              Gryazekopun is also stupid.
              second post in today's discussion.
              there are all links to books.
              you just brought utterances.
          2. grafrozow
            grafrozow 13 July 2013 19: 20 New
            0
            And you don’t need to look, but you won’t drown.
        2. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 10 July 2013 13: 13 New
          11
          Quote: Gahpro
          Patriot from Topvar is always stupid ....


          Glory to the all-good Buddha that among us there is such a giant of thought as Gahprom !
          While he is among us personally, I don’t worry about the intellectual level of Military Review.
          1. Rider
            Rider 10 July 2013 13: 16 New
            +5
            Quote: Karlsonn
            Glory to the All-Blessing Buddha that among us there is such a giant of thought as Gakhprom!


            Well, what can you do, these are the WRITERS OF MYTHS.

            how to bask "for lack of stamp, use ..."
            1. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 10 July 2013 13: 47 New
              11
              Quote: Rider
              Well, what can you do, these are the WRITERS OF MYTHS.


              Personally, I don’t understand the discussion at all. request
              Yes, there wasn’t a “textbook feat of 28 Panfilov’s”.
              The feat of the Panfilov Division was.
              From the point of view of history as a science, the theme for the film is more suitable The Feat of the Platoon of Lieutenant Shironin PN, or the Airborne Troops led by Senior Lieutenant Olshansky KF.
              From the point of view of public and cinematic events, the legend of 28 Panfilov’s people is more suitable.
              And the debate about this film is proof of this.
              I hope the authors have the strength to overcome all obstacles.
              I hope they manage to make a great and entertaining film.
              I sent money, I hold fists for them. wink
            2. Rider
              Rider 10 July 2013 13: 54 New
              +8
              Quote: Karlsonn
              Personally, I don’t understand the discussion at all.


              Well, in general, and I got excited.

              it’s just because there is MEMORY, and there are RELEASERS of MYTHS.
              they seem to be telling the truth, but anyway it turns out THAT MEMORY was REVEALED.

              I remember writing (during the USSR) that during the defense of Sevastopol 4 the marine Lied under the tanks with grenades.
              but there were FOLLOWERS who said that this was not so and the Germans didn’t have tanks on this site.

              So it turns out that the impersonal defense of Sevastopol was, but there were no exploits.

              every nation is proud of its heroic past, but it seems we are the only ones who strive to dismantle this past.
            3. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 10 July 2013 14: 18 New
              +2
              Quote: Rider
              Well, in general, and I got excited.

              it’s just because there is MEMORY, and there are RELEASERS of MYTHS.
              they seem to be telling the truth, but anyway it turns out THAT MEMORY was REVEALED.


              Fans of TRUTH should re-read the article again.
            4. IRBIS
              IRBIS 10 July 2013 14: 55 New
              +3
              Quote: Rider
              I remember writing (during the USSR) that during the defense of Sevastopol 4 the marine Lied under the tanks with grenades.

              Not 4, but five heroes of the Red Navy, led by political instructor Filchenkov.
              Quote: Rider
              but there were FOLLOWERS who said that this was not so and the Germans didn’t have tanks on this site.

              I have nothing against the heroic defense of Sevastopol. But:
              The Germans did not have tanks at that time, not only on this site, but in the entire army of Manstein. Our command simply needed to somehow justify the loss of Crimea.
              Sorry, but besides the articles of the propaganda industry there are also archives and other documents. Work with them.
            5. Rider
              Rider 10 July 2013 15: 00 New
              +6
              Quote: IRBIS
              Sorry, but besides the articles of the propaganda industry there are also archives and other documents. Work with them.


              Yes, I taste, and read on this episode.

              another matter WHO HE HINDERED?

              Well, people believed in heroes.
              boys on their example learned to love their homeland.

              I’m interested in why all kinds of TRAINERS are not looking for unknown heroes but like picking at fried facts.
            6. Kubanets
              Kubanets 10 July 2013 19: 39 New
              +5
              Yes, according to the memoirs of Manstein 11, the army did not have tanks. But there were two divisions of the Sturmgeshutts. And how is it easier for a soldier in a rifle cell that he is not rushing a tank but a self-propelled gun?
            7. Rider
              Rider 10 July 2013 20: 35 New
              +2
              it seems there was something based on Czech t-38
  • FRIGATE2
    FRIGATE2 10 July 2013 20: 52 New
    -3
    Quote: Karlsonn
    Glory to the All-Blessing Buddha that among us there is such a giant of thought as Gakhprom!
    While he is among us personally, I don’t worry about the intellectual level of Military Review.

    Dear, you wouldn’t respond so maliciously.
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 10 July 2013 20: 57 New
      +6
      Quote: FRIGATE2
      Dear, you wouldn’t respond so maliciously.


      If a person begins to be rude here, the attitude towards him is appropriate, for the first time.
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 10 July 2013 13: 15 New
    +3
    The official position of the authors of the film:
    Nobody needs the whole truth, only the part that makes a person stronger, cleaner and closer to God is needed
    1. Rider
      Rider 10 July 2013 13: 18 New
      +5
      Quote: Spade
      The official position of the authors of the film:
      Nobody needs the whole truth, only the part that makes a person stronger, cleaner and closer to God is needed


      Is it really bad?

      Well, about the TRUTH, how do you feel about the CLEANER movie?
      there, after all, the TRUTH of percent so on 90.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 26 New
        -11
        Yes, it’s bad. Because they trample in the mud the memory of over a hundred-odd real heroes, replacing them with heroes from the popular print.
        1. Rider
          Rider 10 July 2013 13: 44 New
          -1
          Quote: Pimply
          Yes, it’s bad. Because they trample in the mud the memory of


          so let's do it.

          we’ll take a list of Jewish Jewish civilian social networks and find out that one got a hero on the Tashkent front, the other because he sewed his cap well, and the third because he was the 3rd assistant to (say) Kotin.
          I don’t say that it is (you’ll start asking for references again, and I’ll have to distribute the archive with an anti-Semitic bias)
          I just ASSUME that it’s really so bare.

          so tell you LIKE this?
          what because of several tips, the rest didn’t deserve the award?
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 52 New
          -7
          Dig out. To get started - do it. Just why only of Jewish nationality. The USSR is an international. Let's take a look at everyone.
        3. Rider
          Rider 10 July 2013 14: 00 New
          +4
          Quote: Pimply
          Just why only of Jewish nationality. USSR - International


          Well, no!
          I’m a LOCATOR, and I’ll dig where I want to.

          I certainly won’t do it (I’m anti-Semitic, but not to the same extent)
          I'm just curious
          will you then insist on the DISPOSAL OF MYTH?
        4. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 07 New
          -2
          Quote: Rider
          THE DISPOSAL OF MYTH?

          Excluding consideration of other GSS? No, I have no problem. Only it is necessary to consider also representations on GSS. Well, that was objectivity. At the same time, it is necessary to debunk the myth that the Jews were pinched in this area, giving out awards of lower dignity or not at all in connection with the fifth count.
        5. Rider
          Rider 10 July 2013 14: 11 New
          +1
          Quote: Pimply
          Excluding consideration of other GSS? No, I have no problem.


          okay on occasion I will raise the topic.

          Quote: Pimply
          Well, that was objectivity

          do not wait, only the golimy TRUTH (TM)
          only debunking a myth.
          and what conclusions will I give ... mmm song.
        6. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 14 New
          -5
          What myth? There is a myth that Jews fought only on the Tashkent front. What other myth are you going to debunk?
        7. Rider
          Rider 10 July 2013 14: 23 New
          +4
          Quote: Pimply
          What other myth are you going to debunk?


          Well, for example, that the Jews are the smartest.
          about the Araboira war you can walk.
          about the occupied land
        8. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 45 New
          -10
          Forward. Let's debunk the myths. I'm all for it. Start collecting statistics. We will deal with debunking. Please only, less myths - more data
        9. Rider
          Rider 10 July 2013 14: 49 New
          +1
          Quote: Pimply
          Forward.


          Do not worry, do not rust.
  • IRBIS
    IRBIS 10 July 2013 15: 07 New
    +1
    Quote: Rider
    take a list of Jewish Jewish nationalities

    Do this:
    1. Take the list of 28 mi "panfilovtsev" who are awarded the title "Hero of the Soviet Union".
    2. Take a list of those who have been stripped of this title.
    3. Compare.
    4. Having found a surname "Dobrobabin" - be surprised.
    Dobabin, "heroically" killed at the Dubosekovo junction, served with the Germans. It was his appeal after the war for the star of the “hero” that became the reason for the investigation by the NKVD. Read the investigation materials, the battle of the 1075 regiment at that time is fully described there. Read and be surprised again.
    And do not think in cliches. You need to talk about real, not invented or assigned heroes.
  • Rider
    Rider 10 July 2013 15: 19 New
    +6
    Quote: IRBIS
    Do this:

    almost everything that you advised me, I have already done.
    and about one Judah too.
    BUT DOES THIS DEPLETE THE EXPLOIT OF THE OTHERS?

    oh and the rest was not, well then it’s clear.
    Martians fought near Dubosekov, and German tanks burned with X rays.
  • Ulan
    Ulan 10 July 2013 14: 57 New
    +5
    Well, if you approach this, then you can agree to complete absurdity. Once they shot a film about 28 Panfilov’s men and didn’t shoot about the defenders of the bunkers of the Kiev UR, it means that they trampled the memory of these heroes into the mud.
    A delusional statement, anything can be pulled under it.
    I think the authors of the film are not so stupid as to be silent about the other participants in the events.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 58 New
    -1
    Someone forbid to shoot about 28 Panfilov’s? No. Just do not shout everywhere that this is historical truth. There was a fight. Another battle. Much less beautiful, and much more cruel.
  • Rider
    Rider 10 July 2013 15: 02 New
    +3
    Quote: Pimply
    No. Just do not shout everywhere that this is historical truth.


    or maybe you shouldn’t shout that it was historical is NOT true.
    maybe you should take the film in the CONTEXT of the heroic defense of Panfilov’s division?
  • Pimply
    Pimply 10 July 2013 15: 04 New
    -5
    Worth it. Because the myth closed real people.
  • Rider
    Rider 10 July 2013 15: 09 New
    +2
    Quote: Pimply
    Worth it. Because the myth closed real people.


    well why did they close 6
    did Panfilov’s division shut with a “myth” 7
    or fight at Dubosekovo?
    Is political instructor Klochkov MYTH?
    Did they shut down the other soldiers who died heroically?

    just hid a couple of unsightly episodes.

    but I don’t understand how it fits with the CLOSURE of REAL PEOPLE.

    sorry, but you are already starting to repeat and find fault.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 10 July 2013 15: 10 New
    -7
    Have closed. Completely
  • Rider
    Rider 10 July 2013 15: 13 New
    +2
    Quote: Pimply
    Have closed. Completely


    I don’t understand, nobody knows about Panfilov’s division?

    WHAT WERE CLOSED?
  • Pimply
    Pimply 10 July 2013 15: 16 New
    -5
    Because they know the myth of 28 Panfilov’s men, and don’t know the truth about the 4th company.
  • Rider
    Rider 10 July 2013 15: 30 New
    +4
    but it doesn’t seem to you that the 4th company is KAKBA and is INCLUDED in this "myth".
    that the "myth" (in your opinion) is the GENERALIZED knowledge about the feat of the people in general and the same 4 companies in particular?
  • Pimply
    Pimply 10 July 2013 15: 33 New
    -3
    You need to know about the real feat, and not defend the invention of the journalist.
  • Rider
    Rider 10 July 2013 15: 39 New
    +1
    Quote: Pimply
    You need to know about the real feat


    so I didn’t understand, wasn’t there Panfilov’s division and battle at Dubosekovo?

    or nobody knows about this?

    you do not allow the idea that the "new generation" at least knows something about the REAL ACTION due to this (supposedly) myth.

    our discussion is at an impasse. you except “closed, closed. overturned” the arguments ended.
    there is no point endlessly repeating the same thing.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 10 July 2013 15: 40 New
    -6
    And who knows about this? They know about 28 Panfilovites. About a fictitious, not a real feat. And fiercely defend this myth. Yes, it’s more pleasant to believe in fairy tales.
  • Rider
    Rider 10 July 2013 15: 49 New
    +6
    Quote: Pimply
    Yes, it’s more pleasant to believe in fairy tales.


    this is not a fairy tale, it is a GENERALIZED IMAGE of the SOVIET PEOPLE IN THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR.

    if this is not clear to you. then I feel sorry for you.
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 10 July 2013 16: 10 New
    0
    Quote: Rider
    this is a GENERALIZED IMAGE of the SOVIET PEOPLE IN THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR.

    Then I agree with you !!
    In general, I agree with many of the above in this discussion !!
    I have a question for Eugene, is it that the film Salvation of Private Rain is based on historical documents and everything was like in a movie ??? That is, in a movie everything was given for sure? !!
  • il grand casino
    il grand casino 10 July 2013 16: 33 New
    0
    I will answer for Eugene. In Rain, it never occurred to anyone to claim that it was based on anything.
    P.S. The film is in my opinion on the three. Not a fan)))
  • Rider
    Rider 10 July 2013 16: 49 New
    +1
    Quote: il grand casino
    In Rain, it never occurred to anyone to claim that it was based on anything.


    that is, he shot a frank tale?
    and there was no landing in Normandy?
  • il grand casino
    il grand casino 10 July 2013 16: 58 New
    -3
    Do not go into the little things. It may still begin to assert that if they did not write "filmed on real events" then there is no sea and no sand on the beach. There was a landing. But the authors of the film do not claim that she was what she was shown. For them, it's just a feature film. YES and landing there is not the main detail of the film. Though colorful and expensive.
    P.S. If they nevertheless tried to slip their appearance of the situation as the truth in the last resort - God will judge them.
    P.S.S. I am against myths. I am for praising real deeds, real people. There are many examples of such people, fortunately (that they are and were) and grief (that heroes usually become heroes in their last minutes).
  • Rider
    Rider 10 July 2013 17: 13 New
    +5
    Quote: il grand casino
    I am for praising real deeds, real people.


    If you have not noticed, then I am NOT AGAINST this.
    but here’s a hack, we don’t have people who want to do this.

    but the DISCLAIMERS of all stripes, like dogs uncut.

    And on D-day, they just think how it was shot in the film.
    since they have their own FOLLOWERS, in the afternoon with fire.
    don't pay them for it.
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 10 July 2013 17: 18 New
    +1
    Quote: il grand casino
    I am for praising real deeds, real people.

    And who is against !! ??
    But do not mix the movie with other types of art !!))))
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 10 July 2013 17: 17 New
    0
    Quote: il grand casino
    I will answer for Eugene. In Rain, it never occurred to anyone to claim that it was based on anything.

    Thanks for the answer for Eugennia !!))))
    But if you were careful there is a letter from the general to Private Rain !!
    This documentary letter and the film is based on real events !!!
    But everything was just like in the movie!
    No Rain was simply recalled with the help of a walkie-talkie !!! There the truth and speculation are intertwined !! I liked the film !!
  • il grand casino
    il grand casino 10 July 2013 17: 22 New
    -2
    Quote: Yarbay
    Quote: il grand casino
    I will answer for Eugene. In Rain, it never occurred to anyone to claim that it was based on anything.

    Thanks for the answer for Eugennia !!))))
    But if you were careful there is a letter from the general to Private Rain !!
    This documentary letter and the film is based on real events !!!
    But everything was just like in the movie!
    No Rain was simply recalled with the help of a walkie-talkie !!! There the truth and speculation are intertwined !! I liked the film !!


    Hm ... missed that. Thanks for the info. But this does not change my general idea.

    Quote: Rider
    And on D-day, they just think how it was shot in the film.
    since they have their own FOLLOWERS, in the afternoon with fire.
    don't pay them for it.


    There are enough whistleblowers around. But even if they are not there - if you believe the events in only one film / book, then you have to go to school ... even I remember that we were hammered in high school - any information should come from many sources. By the way, in the "capitalist" schools they also teach this. But now everything flies past the ears. However, as with us.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 10 July 2013 17: 46 New
    -4
    The generalized image of the Soviet people is a monument to the Motherland, say. And when they try to replace history with a myth, it is trampling on real memory.
  • Karlsonn
    Karlsonn 11 July 2013 01: 28 New
    0
    Quote: Pimply
    . Because they trample in the mud the memory of over a hundred-odd real heroes, replacing them with heroes from the popular print.


    Where do you write from?
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 10 July 2013 13: 50 New
    -3
    This is bad. Moreover, it is disastrous for this particular film.

    Half truth in such a sensitive matter is worse than a lie.
    1. Rider
      Rider 10 July 2013 14: 08 New
      +5
      Quote: Spade
      This is bad. Moreover, it is disastrous for this particular film.


      Uv Lopatov, when you answer, pliiiz insert a quote in the headline, otherwise it is not clear to whom it is addressed.

      bad not because it is a myth, but because of the illiterate implementation of the project.
      if you get something like a fines or (God forbid) weary of conscience, I’ll be the first to throw dirt at the creators.
      but if (as they say in the article) the film will be shot with public money and without all kinds of producers who KNOW HOW TO SUBMIT THE HISTORICAL TRUTH.
      It can turn out quite worthy.

      something else surprises me.

      that’s how much outright LIES came out about the war.
      and all of our truth-seekers, as a gateway to the water, got (that is, they got the other one), it’s worth at least to announce a film about the ACTION, about which YOU CAN BE Proud, as their squeals have no end.
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 10 July 2013 14: 23 New
      -1
      Quote: Rider
      if you get something like a fines or (God forbid) weary of conscience, I’ll be the first to throw dirt at the creators.

      It will turn out worse. Something like a spat on "9 companies"


      Quote: Rider
      that’s how much outright LIES came out about the war.
      and all of our truth-seekers, as a gateway to water

      Yah?
    3. Rider
      Rider 10 July 2013 14: 32 New
      +4
      Quote: Spade
      It will turn out worse. Something like a spat on "9 companies"


      can we see first?
      and by the way I like 9.
      there is shown EXPERIENCE.
      and only at the end they made a mistake with "they were all abandoned"
      for FINDERS it turns out just one turn.
      in full screen AAA US FORGET US FOR US !!!

      and only at the end in small print did we fulfill our duty, we won.

      Quote: Spade
      Yah?


      well yes.
      I didn’t hear something from the REVISIONISTS from history, their refutation to all fighters, and night Vedas.
      about them gakhtyhi silence
      Yes, and you are not noticeable there (we’re not talking about pimply)
    4. Lopatov
      Lopatov 10 July 2013 14: 42 New
      -2
      Quote: Rider
      I didn’t hear something from the REVISIONISTS from history, their refutation to all fighters, and night Vedas.
      about them gakhtyhi silence

      Their, these denials, just the sea. You are corny do not want to notice them
    5. Rider
      Rider 10 July 2013 14: 48 New
      +2
      Quote: Spade
      Their, these refutations, are just the sea


      their really sea.
      but not from those about whom I speak RELEASERS.

      in almost every article about the Second World War there is a dispute about the causes of lesions, and rubber pickers necessarily appear.
      something in the "battles" with them puffed not seen.
      and guys like me bite with them (oh, I won’t die of modesty)
    6. Lopatov
      Lopatov 10 July 2013 14: 55 New
      -5
      There above is the negative opinion of historians about this film. Dear historians. Always struggling with all kinds of cutters. What category are you trying to write them to?
  • Pimply
    Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 47 New
    -5
    A feat is good. Only from the name then it is necessary to remove "based on real events."
  • Rider
    Rider 10 July 2013 15: 52 New
    +1
    Quote: Pimply
    Only from the name then it is necessary to remove "based on real events."


    in such a case, such titles should be removed from 99% of the films where they are mentioned.
    in each one you can dig up so many inaccuracies and outright distortions that the movie can be safely closed.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 10 July 2013 17: 49 New
    0
    Respected. When the details differ - this is one thing. When a piece of history is completely changed, it’s different. Yes, in at least half of the films where it stands - based on real events - there should not be such an inscription.
  • Rider
    Rider 10 July 2013 18: 13 New
    +2
    Quote: Pimply
    When a piece of history is completely changed - it's different


    please clarify how the PIECE OF HISTORY is changing.

    maybe the film will not mention Panfilov’s division, but Rodimtseva, or Rybalko?
    or maybe they will say that this did not happen during the battle for Moscow, but for the defense of Washington?
  • Pimply
    Pimply 10 July 2013 18: 30 New
    -3
    You are currently advocating falsification of history. That's all.
  • Rider
    Rider 10 July 2013 18: 36 New
    +2
    at the moment you say nonsense, that's all
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 10 July 2013 23: 04 New
    +1
    Quote: Pimply
    You are currently advocating falsification of history. That's all

    Zhenya and where does it !!))))
    Here in my childhood I loved the film about the GSS, the partisan of the saboteur Mehti Huseynzade * On the far shores *!
    There, not everything is documented, that is, let's say the end of the film is one of the versions of his death !! What does it mean falsification of history ??
    This movie!!!!!
    I will give an example of falsification !!
    Here's an example of a film and a novel by Pikul * BAYAZET *!
    There, the hero of the defense of the fortress of Khan Nakhichevan is shown as a coward and a traitor, that is, they do not just distort, but falsify the historical event and the role of the individual there !!
  • IRBIS
    IRBIS 10 July 2013 14: 49 New
    +5
    Quote: Rider
    there, after all, the TRUTH of percent so on 90.

    In "Purgatory" there is practically no truth, a film from the category of "soldier's tales". Just do not bubble in righteous indignation. Personally - was, participated - directly, but did not see such. Bullshit!
    I want to note that this is not about the heroism of our soldiers, but about the way to "feed" it from the screen.
    1. Rider
      Rider 10 July 2013 14: 54 New
      +1
      Quote: IRBIS
      There is practically no truth in Purgatory


      and this is which side to look at.

      because if you take everything separately.
      shelling by their own, Baltic snipers, mercenaries, killed peaceful people. ripped off heads.
      then all this is certainly TRUE.
      it is only a matter of staging and compilation.

      there is the only 100% FALSE that is "digging in" the tank (well, you understand)
      Quote: IRBIS
      Personally - was, participated - directly, but did not see such

      I'll throw you in a personal
  • Ulan
    Ulan 10 July 2013 14: 37 New
    13
    Yeah ... I'm a writer. Well, let's do it in order. and About myths and films.
    My deep conviction is that films should be made.
    In response to the "penal battalions" you need to shoot "They fought for their homeland" .... "The Living and the Dead."
    I completely agree with the author of the article. Was there a divia? Was. You accomplished a feat? Made. Was there a battle near Dubosekovo? Was. What else is not clear? Now about 28. Someone wrote here that this is a "vile myth"? What is vile in it? They surrendered to the Germans? Fled the position? No. Are the last names wrong and there were not 28? It may well be.
    My opinion is that a film about the Panfilov division is needed, and as an episode in it about the fight near Dubosekovo, too. Perhaps without specifying the names and number of participants, I can’t argue here. But the episode in the film itself should be.
    Now about the myths.
    Well, it’s like we are all adults, that to deceive each other. Myths were and will be. And this is neither good nor bad, it is a FACT. And it must be taken for granted.
    And you need to understand for yourself what is better - patriotic myths or anti-patriotic. In my opinion, if you can’t avoid myths in history, then let them be patriotic myths that serve to raise pride for the country, for its history, for its heroes.
    Ah, now the rezuns and Svanidze will get a reason to make fun of them. Well, they all ... got it. They are not afraid for some reason, and we must tremble before their "revelations."
    Myths were and will be and spots can be found on the sun. The same Gagarin is to some extent a myth. Wasn’t there in his life, any moments that do not really color him? And what will we dig up or preserve the image that we have?
    Or Kozhedub? Yes, you never know. So no need to swear pseudo-patriots, etc. but just to understand what’s worse - to leave the image of Kosmodemyanskaya as a heroine or make her a criminal. Here and think before throwing accusations.
    And films must be removed. Moreover, there are plenty of them. There is still no film about our tank ace Zinovia Kolobanov. But there is a "White Tiger". There is no film about Pokryshkin, about the battle of Lutsk and Brody. There is no film about the Battle of Kulikovo. Why not make the film "Port Arthur" based on Stepanov’s book. Or "Tsushima", the film could give a hundred points ahead of "Pearl Harbor." That's my opinion.
    1. Yura
      Yura 10 July 2013 22: 15 New
      +3
      Quote: Ulan
      I completely agree with the author of the article. Was there a divia? Was. You accomplished a feat? Made. Was there a battle near Dubosekovo? Was. What else is not clear?

      Quote: Ulan
      Now about 28. Someone wrote here that this is a "vile myth"? What is vile in it? They surrendered to the Germans? Fled the position? No. Are the last names wrong and there were not 28? It may well be.

      28 Panfilov long ago became the image and symbol of the whole division, they are already inseparable
      Quote: Ulan
      In my opinion, if it is impossible to avoid myths in history, then let it be patriotic myths serving to raise pride for the country, for its history, for its heroes.

      Here you are also right, very much. These published stories, both real and somehow imagined, inspired and inspired our defenders for exploits. And films definitely need to be shot.
      Quote: Ulan
      Ah, now the rezuns and Svanidze will get a reason to make fun of them. Well, they all ... got it. They are not afraid for some reason, and we must tremble before their "revelations."

      You are probably on a subconscious but absolutely rightly put these two surnames next to the Reason defector and the traitor, what truth can be expected from the traitor, he knows Svanidze about this, it’s a pity that he doesn’t know how he will end his life to defame the country from which got everything. ...... In general, I don’t really understand what is happening today with the comments, the article is very good, from an indifferent person and a patriot, and the fuss in some comments is not good, it seems that they are telling the truth somewhere but somehow it’s unclean or something. And yet, those who write and consider rezuna a source of knowledge, it is better not to write anything at all if you do not want to be considered the same as who you are. The article is a definite plus, you are also Ulan, it’s a pity you can just put one at a time.
      1. Ulan
        Ulan 11 July 2013 09: 55 New
        +3
        Thank you. I would also like to add ... really about the sensations from some posts. It seems that the truth is written, but there is an unpleasant aftertaste. You also need to be able to submit so that it does not act worse than a lie. Sometimes it is better to remain silent.
  • Nagaibak
    Nagaibak 10 July 2013 15: 28 New
    +3
    Gakhprom "I am not Stas57, but I will answer."
    Answer for yourself first.
    For the weak of the mind, I decipher my position. Give an example specifically. A link to the interview, a book, who said what and where.
  • Yura
    Yura 10 July 2013 21: 42 New
    +3
    Quote: Ulan
    In my opinion, you turned everything inside out. I don’t know why you did it, but in my opinion it turned out a scam.

    What a scam.
  • sevtrash
    sevtrash 10 July 2013 12: 10 New
    -5
    For filmmakers, journalists, the main thing is that their creation is watched or revered by more people, and as far as the plot corresponded to reality, this is the second or no turn for them. A scandalous case - so it’s good for them, and also to warm up - it’s all so fine.
    From the point of view of propaganda, Panfilov’s played their role one hundred percent and, probably, had a positive impact on the morale of the troops. So then, the journalists Koroteev, Krivitsky, Ortenberg completed their work on the final result.
    Now, it seems to stick to the fictional version does not make sense. The heroism of the 16th army will not be reduced.
  • Karlsonn
    Karlsonn 10 July 2013 13: 04 New
    +2
    Quote: Stas57
    with a dropout Yulin


    Stas57 hi

    Good afternoon. I want to know the name of your scientific work, as well as popular science.
    There is a great desire to read.

  • Karlsonn
    Karlsonn 10 July 2013 13: 20 New
    +6
    Quote: Stas57
    But to hell with you


    Perhaps you do not know, but to be rude here is not accepted.

    Quote: Stas57
    you will be scum and penal battalion, because our elite can’t shoot normally


    Can you read carefully?

    The reason for this was the attempt of a group of enthusiasts, tired of the slop about the war, filmed by eminent creators with state money, to create a film about the legendary feat at the Dubosekovo junction.

    Next time, try to memorize the text of the article you just read, but if you can still analyze it and draw conclusions, it will be just wonderful.
    With all due respect, Karlsonn. hi
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 10 July 2013 14: 02 New
      -4
      There was already such a negative experience. The film "9 companies." Generally normal, but ruined by his attachment to specific events. And now he is positioned as an artistic lie.
      The same fate will await this film.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 08 New
        -4
        About that and speech, about that and speech.
      2. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 10 July 2013 14: 34 New
        12
        Quote: Spade
        There was already such a negative experience. The film "9 companies." Generally normal, but ruined by his attachment to specific events.


        Guano "9th company" was destroyed not by binding to events, but by an anti-Soviet Vavka in the head of the creators.


        Quote: Spade
        The same fate will await this film.


        I hope no.

        Once again, this film is about LEGEND.
        A film about the legend of 300 Spartans does not look bad, although

        screaming

        - FILM "300 SPARTAN" - LIES !!!
        EVERYTHING WAS NOT SO !!!
        THERE WAS NOT 300 !!!
        PERSONS WAS LESS !!!
        THE ELEPHANES DO NOT COLLECT IN AN ELEPHANT !!!
        Fighting Rhinos - WASN'T !!!

        keeps fighting in hysterics

        NINJA DID NOT FIGHT FOR XERX !!!
        SHIPBRUSHES AND DESTRUCTION OF A PART OF THE PERSIAN ARMY UNDER THE FERM saws - THERE WAS NOT !!!
        THE ARMY OF PERSONS BY BRIDGES YOU MOVED !!!
        XERX WAS NOT A BALD BASKETBALL PLAYER !!!
        ETHIALT WAS NOT A FREAK !!! AAAA HE WASN'T EVEN SPARTAN !!!

        ripped off his voice, went to smoke break
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 10 July 2013 15: 03 New
          -3
          When this film is criticized by anyone who has anything to do with journalism, you will remember my words.
          1. Ulan
            Ulan 10 July 2013 16: 03 New
            +6
            Surely there are those who are "defamed." Again, this is Russian wisdom - you can’t put a handkerchief on each mouth.
            These gentlemen and the truth are "blasphemed" so that my mother does not grieve.
            Well now, don’t say, don’t write, don’t shoot? This means surrendering ourselves.
          2. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 10 July 2013 17: 16 New
            +3
            Quote: Spade
            When this film is criticized by anyone who has anything to do with journalism, you will remember my words.


            And I do not care about the opinions of everyone related to journalism; bully I have my own opinion.
            And in general at the moment I am very interested in something else.
        2. Raphael_83
          Raphael_83 10 July 2013 20: 11 New
          +2
          Hello Karlsonn.
          And I so sincerely considered Zack Snyder’s movie this ... like her ... Well, you understand, right? AND! Remembered! Artistic hyperbole, lo! For all that, what a feat, despite elephants, rhinos and other baseball players, was?

          PS
          Personally, I much prefer the original film of 1962 with Rick Egan as Leonid. It is necessary to look for historical authenticity in it with a magnifying glass, but the classics and the heroic pathos are much more sane.
          From SW. hi
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 11 July 2013 01: 45 New
            +2
            Quote: Raphael_83
            And I so sincerely considered Zack Snyder’s movie this ... like her ... Well, you understand, right? AND! Remembered! Artistic hyperbole, here


            I showed an example of how you can bring anything to idiocy, for example, sue the Louvre as an organized gang of scammers, which shows two-dimensional planes on which three-dimensional space is supposedly depicted - cuts loot from people!


            Quote: Raphael_83
            For all that, what a feat, despite elephants, rhinos and other baseball players, was?


            As well as the feat of Panfilov’s. There were not 300 Spartans, and not 28 Panfilovs, but the ACTION does not detract.


            Quote: Raphael_83
            Personally, I much prefer the original film of 1962 with Rick Egan as Leonid.


            And I like the movie, SOVIET! soldier "Liberation" good and especially the fact that 10 Tigers and 8 Panthers were specially released for this film, stupidly building them at the totalitarian Soviet factory for filming.
            1. Raphael_83
              Raphael_83 11 July 2013 16: 44 New
              0
              Well! “Liberation” is the most standard model of such a movie, in my opinion.
              Now I'm sitting watching Ozerov's “Battle for Moscow”, there’s just in the 4th film there is an episode dedicated to that battle hi
        3. Yarbay
          Yarbay 11 July 2013 01: 37 New
          0
          Quote: Karlsonn
          Guano "9th company" was killed not by binding to events, but by an anti-Soviet Vavka in the head of the creators

          I agree!!
      3. Ulan
        Ulan 10 July 2013 15: 04 New
        +3
        Do you know this for sure? There is no film yet, but do you already know what it will be and what fate awaits him? For the Ukrainians, this is called - don’t give me a gop. Or, before the dad’s hell.
        Can we still wait for the release of the film and then discuss it?
        Each film has advantages and disadvantages, the question is what is more. The film "Brest Fortress" also has jambs, but did it become a libel for the defenders of the fortress from this?
        I think we need to discuss how we would like to see this and other films about the war, and not give an assessment of what has not yet been shot.
  • Garysit
    Garysit 10 July 2013 23: 43 New
    +1
    And what Mr. Isaev, born in 1974 and having a technical education, can know about the war, what did he fight? And how after working in the military archive for 3 years he scribbled so many opuses ?????? Good "authority"
  • Onotollah
    Onotollah 11 July 2013 08: 38 New
    +5
    Quote: Stas57
    you are my patriotic

    And yet, you are not our patriotic and very erudite friend (where are we already up to you and your idols)
    I have to tell you that in a clean field, but against German tanks one must have courage, and after more than 70 years to find out whether there was a feat in the silence of classrooms, but screaming that there were no boys - it smells very unpleasant.
    It is clear that the trench truth is different from the ideal, and in real life there is a place for blood, death and pants soiled with fear, but despite this, most normal people still have a feat in their memory.
    Nevertheless, there is always a smelly bunch of figures finding out different details and pulling out those recommended pants to the white light.
    Well, stas 57, you became happier from the fact that there were more than 28 heroes?
    Is your keen sense of erudite justice satisfied with the overthrow of the symbol from the pedestal?
    So here, the legacy of the Great Feat is pulled apart a piece:
    At first there were not 28 Panfilov’s, then there weren’t 28 Panfilov’s, then there weren’t Panfilov’s at all, and there was a gray mass of citizens driven by the tyrant Stalin under the tracks of tanks.
    But the heroes can not object, they did not have time to “bows to post” on iPhones, and even the bones themselves did not remain.
    And Maresyev really wasn’t, and the Sailors actually stumbled so you get our erudite, because there is no commission report from the scene, there is no survey of eyewitnesses, there are no movie photos of the materials depicting the feat, and since there is nothing to talk about truth?
    And the navigable lighthouse is just a big light bulb, the creed of Christians is just a set of letters, and the eternal flame on the graves of fallen soldiers is the unreasonable expenditure of budgetary funds.
    Why am I saying all this - 28 Panfilov’s are a collective image, an example to follow, and everyone has the right to choose whether to follow it or not, but to reproach him
    meanly.
  • Ded_smerch
    Ded_smerch 11 July 2013 12: 38 New
    0
    28 is not a myth, but an image of the feat of the entire division. Do you feel the difference?
  • Python Kaa
    Python Kaa 11 July 2013 22: 05 New
    +1
    How do you imagine a film lasting an hour and a half "about the entire division"? It was told to you that there were 28 Panfilovites and political instructor Klochkov, and even they will shoot a movie about it, which means that it was. Moreover, there were no less heroic events that were not known not only to journalists, but to anyone in general, due to the death of heroes.
    My children know about 28, and grandchildren will know.
    Millions will watch the film, and historians will die in complete oblivion.
  • vezunchik
    vezunchik 10 July 2013 11: 38 New
    +5
    Curl and greed are the misfortune of pro-Western rats. Like Judas, they want money and fame, but they forget what he ended up with, as in the rest of Berezovsky ....
  • starshina78
    starshina78 10 July 2013 20: 54 New
    +7
    How much can you talk and build speculation about Panfilov’s? There was a fight, there was a feat, what else? Yes, it has now been proved that not everyone died, someone was seriously injured, and someone was even captured (there was a documentary about this at the time, where videos were shot in which the real participants in this battle told their memories, one of them, a Kazakh, was captured, because of this he was not awarded the Gold Medal of the hero of the Soviet Union, but the most interesting is that his name was carved on the monument to the heroes - Panfilov’s in Kazakhstan, as a deceased). The most important thing is that they, at the cost of their life and health, restrained the Nazi tanks.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 10 July 2013 21: 29 New
      -6
      It was a completely different fight. With a different number of victims, with a different number of victories. With everything else. And there are over 100 forgotten people.
      1. Firstvanguard
        Firstvanguard 11 July 2013 07: 03 New
        +8
        This is holivar wassat
        1. The film has not yet been released - a fact.
        2. Heroic defense was a fact.
        3. The Panfilov division was also holding this defense - a fact.
        4. Panfilovites were much more than 28 - a fact.
        5. In a separate time period of the heroic defense of the Panfilov division, in a single local area, 28 people could defend themselves - a fact.
        6. The legend is not accurate in details, but illustrates the general essence - the fact.
        7. There were innumerable feats like this in that war, many thousands - a fact.
        8. The unknown of most of them, no reason not to make films about individual ones - IMHO.
        9. The task of such films is to demonstrate to the living compatriots the steadfastness and dedication of the Soviet people who defended their homeland in that difficult situation - IMHO.
        10. Does the film cope with such a task? We look at item number 1.

        What is srach about?
        Discuss better the film K-19, its historical value / reliability and what ***** it has released on the central channels of domestic television.
        hi
  • Quiet
    Quiet 11 July 2013 19: 36 New
    +1
    Feat Panfilov - was.

    Feat individual mouth - was.


    ETERNAL GLORY TO HEROES IS NOT DEPENDING ON NATIONALITY !!!!! hi soldier drinks

    AND THEY AND I, ALL WERE BORN IN THE GREAT SOVIET UNION !!!!! good
  • KBPC50
    KBPC50 12 July 2013 12: 39 New
    0
    Toads graze for the money of the people, the state does business for itself, stuffs its pockets! But we, ordinary citizens of a great country, know: these 18-24 year olds laid their lives so that we live !!! And the mouths also live due to their death! Eternal glory to these fighters !!!
  • Theophanes
    Theophanes 13 July 2013 20: 58 New
    0
    Where to transfer money to the film? With every pension I will send. Fuck them in the throat !!! The feat was !!!!
  • T80UM1
    T80UM1 10 July 2013 07: 32 New
    27
    Land ... And the Germans wrote that the Siberians opposed them ... At that time, everyone fought near Moscow and beyond the limits of human abilities ... Honor and praise to the heroes.
    1. Gahprom
      Gahprom 10 July 2013 11: 42 New
      -1
      Yes, they did not care, we are for them "Asian hordes."
  • Hikar
    Hikar 10 July 2013 07: 46 New
    +9
    waiting for the movie!
  • Kazakh
    Kazakh 10 July 2013 07: 49 New
    24
    It’s time to pass a law on insulting the feelings of the patriots of their homeland with real terms. Otherwise, these clever men will eat us (with citadels, penal battalions and white tigers)
    1. Cyril7377
      Cyril7377 10 July 2013 08: 18 New
      28
      I agree that during the USSR such a law was censored, it’s time to introduce it. Recently I read about the history of the film "Brest Fortress", so our "Russian" creators tried to stick an episode into the film with an attack by a Chechen-Ingush battalion armed with shovels and knives. Like, what brave Dzhigits were, they all died, but the Germans were also cut down by a whole regiment .... Thanks to the Belarusians, they were outraged specifically and forced to remove the hack and slander. I think that this film only won.
      Z.Y. Once the film is made by enthusiasts, at their own expense, then the film should turn out to be honest and truthful, without the massive feats of criminals and individuals. Uh, let's say so of a united nationality.
      1. T80UM1
        T80UM1 10 July 2013 08: 34 New
        18
        Zadolbal all these current trends to raise the Caucasus during the Second World War, rather a treacherous Chechen-Ingush battalion ... No wonder they were sent to us ... And the crap that allowed them to return ...
    2. adg76
      adg76 10 July 2013 13: 08 New
      0
      The citadel and the penal battalion agree. Such films have no right to exist. They destroy the state. The White Tiger, a film with meaning, a film not so much about the war and the exploits of soldiers, but about the confrontation of ideologies and two military machines. At the conclusion of the film, Hitler gives an interview that reflects the whole essence of European fascism.
    3. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 10 July 2013 18: 36 New
      0
      Quote: Kazakh
      It’s time to pass a law on insulting the feelings of the patriots of their homeland with real terms. Otherwise, these clever men will eat us (with citadels, penal battalions and white tigers)


      According to Elena Gladkova:

      Under the Russian Ministry of Defense, a scientific company may appear to combat falsifications of the country's history.
      The unit is planned to be created at the Central Archive of the military department. According to Deputy Defense Minister Nikolai Pankov, experts will first of all analyze the historical falsifications associated with the events of the Second World War, which today are becoming more widespread both in Russia and abroad.
      The scientific company will replace the special commission on combating falsifications created in 2009 by ex-president of Russia Dmitry Medvedev. Then the good idea received a strange embodiment (the commission included dubious personalities like the "outstanding" scientist-historian Nikolai Svanidze) and in 2012, as expected, ceased to exist due to inefficiency. Obviously, military historians with access to military archives (including secret ones) will be able to work an order of magnitude more productively and objectively than Svanidze and the like.


      I hope that the company will be given machine guns from detachments from long-term storage warehouses.
      Verily I say unto you
      - general executions, will save the motherland!
      1. grafrozow
        grafrozow 13 July 2013 14: 58 New
        +1
        When the shootings begin, you’ll come in handy, the Chekist’s grandson, the Chekist’s son. Are you not capable of anything else, will you shoot according to the class principle? over the corpses.
  • Snoop
    Snoop 10 July 2013 07: 55 New
    13
    Comrades belittling the feat should be themselves in the trenches near Moscow at that time))
    1. Yegorchik
      Yegorchik 10 July 2013 09: 32 New
      +3
      They are not comrades, they are gentlemen.
      1. Rider
        Rider 10 July 2013 11: 26 New
        +6
        Quote: Egorchik
        They are not comrades, they are gentlemen.


        they are freaks.
  • soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 10 July 2013 08: 00 New
    +5
    there was an attack on Moscow, so there was a feat. Denying the feat, they deny the war, which means that according to their views there was no war, but it just might be German tourists on tanks, they drove away from Moscow
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 10 July 2013 11: 44 New
      +1
      That is, denying the lie invented by the journalist, and trying to remember the real heroes - is it to deny the Great Patriotic War?
      1. T80UM1
        T80UM1 10 July 2013 12: 16 New
        +3
        it’s called to get “dirty linen”, something of Erich Hartman and his “352” shot down no one is watering * Mr., the best ace of all time is even listed in the Guinness Book of Records. Although in fact, too, there is a nonsense propaganda, what turns out some can and others can not ???
        1. Rider
          Rider 10 July 2013 12: 23 New
          +3
          Quote: T80UM1
          what turns out some can and others can’t ???


          THAT IS HOW IT IS !

          myths about milliards of raped Germans are constantly being circulated, and REAL "achievements" of the Allies in this field are hushed up.
          mussirut prison of nations, and forget who invented and meticulously used the CONCLUSION CAMP.

          and only our pimply friends deny propaganda and the information war.
          1. Gahprom
            Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 32 New
            -6
            myths about milliards of raped Germans are constantly being circulated, and REAL "achievements" of the Allies in this field are hushed up.
            mussirut prison of nations, and forget who invented and meticulously used the CONCLUSION CAMP.

            old squeals began.
            Someone said - do not need a movie?
            said, remove about the division, and not about the fairy tale, to the joy of Rizun
            1. Iraclius
              Iraclius 10 July 2013 12: 45 New
              +1
              What does Rezun have to do with it? Make a film about the division. Tell me how to do it? 20 series about the everyday life of all divisions and units?
              1. Gahprom
                Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 51 New
                -6
                [quote = Iraclius] What does Rezun have to do with it? / quote]
                Because he does not use the opportunity to mock,

                [quote] Make a film about the division. Tell me how to do it? 20 episodes about the everyday life of all divisions and units? [
                [/ Quote]
                the role of the clown doesn’t suit you very much; you didn’t watch, for example, "Day of the Divisional Commander"? 20 episodes?
                1. Iraclius
                  Iraclius 10 July 2013 13: 06 New
                  +4
                  I have not been rude to you. Be kind and you do not be rude. And then I will answer so that the ears are wrapped. I saw such "champions of truth." Seen enough.
                  I watched the film. Date of shooting - 1983 year. Are you sure that now there is money for the same large-scale film? I know not. But a film about the feat of one company can be removed.
            2. Rider
              Rider 10 July 2013 12: 50 New
              +2
              Quote: Gahpro
              Someone said - do not need a movie?
              they said, take off about the division,


              so why squeals 7

              or have you seen the script 7

              and by the way, if you really make a film, a la rezun.
              I will be the first to scold such a viper.
              1. Gahprom
                Gahprom 10 July 2013 13: 04 New
                -1
                so why squeals 7

                or have you seen the script 7

                and by the way, if you really make a film, a la rezun.
                I will be the first to scold such a viper.

                did you forget how Mikhalkov promised, said that there would be a decent movie, that heap of memoirs, that you watched films?
                but in the end, sailing tanks, by the way, about the Dobbabin, will it be there, or about the fact that out of 28 only 6 will die?
                1. Rider
                  Rider 10 July 2013 13: 21 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Gahpro
                  but in the end, sailing tanks, by the way, about the Dobbabin, will it be there, or about the fact that out of 28 only 6 will die?


                  i know 7
                  and do you know ?
                  you haven't seen anything yet
                  NOBODY SAW,

                  but already condemn.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 10 July 2013 14: 03 New
                    +1
                    Once again, the filmmakers have long been unsubscribed about everything.
                    1. Rider
                      Rider 10 July 2013 16: 16 New
                      +1
                      The tape will be based on the historical events that took place near Volokolamsk in the fall of 1941, when the Germans launched a new attack on Moscow: then the soldiers of the 4th company of the 316th Infantry Division performed a feat, destroying 18 enemy tanks during a 4-hour battle.

                      Many historians consider the official version of events to be literary fiction, but the filmmakers emphasize that "it’s better to sing a feat a hundred times that was not there, than to make a mistake once and not to recognize the feat that was."


                      that's what the filmmakers wrote.
                      and I don’t see anything seditious.
          2. grafrozow
            grafrozow 13 July 2013 15: 45 New
            0
            Speaking of concentration camps, their grandfather Lenin came up with in 1918, and in 1937. The Gestapo delegation came to Moscow to exchange experience with the NKVD, but you don’t need such a story.
            1. builder
              builder 13 July 2013 18: 59 New
              0
              The first concentration camps were invented and built by the British during the Boer War of 1899-1902, in which about 30000 Boer women and children died in two years.
              In the photo, the British aristocrat Lord Horace Kitchener, the creator of the first concentration camps, the Boer girl Lisa van Zil, who died from exhaustion in the British concentration camp.
              Stop talking nonsense about
              Grandfather Lenin in 1918, and in 1937 GESTAPO delegation came to Moscow to exchange experience with the NKVD
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 12: 27 New
          -8
          Why not water it? The question of his victories is constantly being discussed. Another thing is that his victories are documented, 301 has confirmation. How much there are posts is another question.
          However, 28 Panfilov’s is our story. Right? And remembering the invented heroes, we forgot about the real ones.
          1. T80UM1
            T80UM1 10 July 2013 12: 31 New
            +2
            301 confirmation from a partner! they all attributed 2-3 times themselves, and then the coefficient was 2 - 301 victory and not 301 shot down aircraft. Deciphering the concept of “victory” can be implied as damage to a 2-motor aircraft, or firing at a plane recorded by a machine gun ...
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 10 July 2013 12: 50 New
              0
              Can. And they even tried to prove the falsehood of Harmtman’s victories. For example, the Russian historian Dmitry Khazanov. However, the latter was completely defeated by opponents, Hans Ring and Jacques-Yves Laurent, who found in his work a huge number of inconsistencies, fraud, etc.
              1. T80UM1
                T80UM1 10 July 2013 13: 07 New
                +1
                I don’t remember, but read on one site, in one flight in September 1943, Hartman shot down 6 aircraft, of which 2 mig3 1 and 16 2 yak1 and 1 il 2, and of all the Red Army air units operating in that region mig3 (the last aircraft were decommissioned in 42 due motor resources) was not in service, and 16 too ... From which it follows that the best ace of all time simply impudently attributed planes to himself at least 2 times ... And after that you suggest me to listen to bourgeois tales ??? So they all sincerely believe that the USSR lost 40 million soldiers against 4 from Germany and so on. I look and you are a supporter of these tales ...
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 12 New
                  +1
                  So you didn’t “read somewhere”, but find the material
                  1. T80UM1
                    T80UM1 10 July 2013 13: 19 New
                    -1
                    http://militera.lib.ru/research/isaev_av2/08.html
                    Take for example two days, May 13 and 14, 1942, the height of the battle for Kharkov. On May 13, the Luftwaffe announces 65 downed Soviet aircraft, 42 of which are recorded on their own account by the III group of the 52nd fighter squadron. Documented losses of the Soviet Air Force on May 13 are 20 aircraft. The next day, pilots of group III of the 52nd fighter squadron report about 47 Soviet aircraft shot down in a day. The commander of the 9th squadron of the group, German Graf, announced six victories, his co-pilot Alfred Grislavsky chalked up two MiG-3s, Lieutenant Adolf Dickfeld announced nine (!) Victories that day. The real losses of the Red Army Air Force on May 14 were three times smaller, 14 aircraft (5 Yak-1, 4 LaGG-3, 3 Il-2, 1 Su-2 and 1 R-5). MiG-3s are simply not on this list.
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 26 New
                      +1
                      Where is Hartman?
                      1. T80UM1
                        T80UM1 10 July 2013 13: 34 New
                        0
                        follow the link there and there is about the hartman, listen to what you cling to specific words, there is no hartman here but there is a graph, and there are facts of the third registry, what's next? Cite the facts themselves exposing me that the hartman really knocked down, and with the confirmation of the Soviet side ...
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 41 New
                        -1
                        So give a piece about Hartman.
                      3. T80UM1
                        T80UM1 10 July 2013 13: 59 New
                        -1
                        Therefore, I believe that the JG-52 headquarters requested confirmation from the ground troops about the downed planes (after all, Hartman shot down over his territory, and the ground troops could confirm this). If the downing was confirmed, then the ground forces could confirm the type of aircraft. Then the downed plane was listed, and this list of JG-52 headquarters was sent to the Luftwaffe headquarters. But if nobody saw the downing of the declared aircraft or its debris, then such a “victory” was sent only to Goebbels’s propaganda ministry. I see no other logical explanation. Of course, there could be overlays, for example, a crashed plane reached its territory, fell in a remote place, the infantry could not determine its type, etc. And, probably, Hartman shot down more than is stated in the diary JG-52, but still ... In the headquarters diary, of the 202 Soviet and American aircraft shot down by Hartman, he was only marked with 11! True, in one case, the type of aircraft is in the plural - Mustangs. Hartman announced them that day as many as 5 pieces. Even if you add all of them, then there will be 15. It is not a lot of 202 declared victories, is it? I got excited when I wrote that the number of Hartman's victories should be divided by 7,5. It is necessary to divide by 20!
                        http://www.e-reading-lib.com/chapter.php/103456/65/Muhin_-_Asy_i_propaganda._Dut
                        ye_pobedy_Lyuftvaffe.html
                      4. Pimply
                        Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 11 New
                        +2
                        Oh Gd. Are you bringing MUCHINA as a source ??? The greatest Russian conspiracy theorist and debunker of myths? Which only feeds on this bread, debunking flights to the moon, etc.?
                      5. T80UM1
                        T80UM1 10 July 2013 14: 20 New
                        0
                        What sources do you bring? Completely Anglo-German? Which need to reduce the fear of their pilots (English), and to justify the defeat in 2 WWII (German)?
                      6. Pimply
                        Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 45 New
                        +2
                        I do not bring Mukhin
                      7. T80UM1
                        T80UM1 10 July 2013 15: 12 New
                        0
                        And for me your sources, how for you Mukhin and what?
                      8. Pimply
                        Pimply 10 July 2013 15: 15 New
                        +2
                        I have historians. You have a conspiracy theorist. Who is he by profession? Metallurgist?

                        http://lurkmore.to/%D0%AE%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%9C%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%BD

                        For serious scientists such articles are not written in Lurka, forgive me.
                    2. Rider
                      Rider 10 July 2013 15: 15 New
                      0
                      Quote: Pimply
                      I do not bring Mukhin


                      you to begin to disprove it.
                      you love REAL numbers.
                      here and demonstrate an UNBEARED approach.
                    3. Pimply
                      Pimply 10 July 2013 15: 18 New
                      -3
                      To refute lies and fabrications? Sorry, ignoring ignorance is pointless. Serious historians have gone through a hundred times over all of Mukha’s writings. And he is still revered as a great scientist by people who are close to his inventions and conspiracy theology.

                      Have you stopped drinking cognac in the morning? Answer only yes or no. This is from the same opera.
                    4. Rider
                      Rider 10 July 2013 15: 44 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Serious historians have gone through a hundred times over all of Mukha’s writings.


                      indicate which figures they gave, what arguments.
                      otherwise your “already passed a hundred times” look like “all progressive humanity”
  • aviator_IAS
    aviator_IAS 11 July 2013 00: 09 New
    -1
    Quote: Pimply
    and trying to remember real heroes


    You certainly won’t get this from you.
  • pensioner
    pensioner 10 July 2013 08: 26 New
    21
    Was this a feat?
    Yes, it was generally a miracle.
    When the thin-line division of recruits who lacked ammunition for a long time stopped at times a superior experienced enemy. And those recruits who, under a terrible onslaught, retreated on one day, firmly held their positions for the next.


    And the Germans wanted to make these people slaves ??
    1. Iraclius
      Iraclius 10 July 2013 10: 57 New
      +5
      Yes, a thin red line. Soviet version.
      Eternal memory to the heroes! The film crew - good luck. Critics want to shut up their mouths in advance and walk in the woods - criticize Mikhalkov of All Russia.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 10 July 2013 11: 50 New
        0
        Quote: Iraclius
        Yes, a thin red line. Soviet version.

        Since the Crimean War, this phrase has received a second meaning. The line separating consciousness from madness. And it was in this meaning that it was used by the novelist James Jones, and then the creators of the Hollywood movie of the same name.
        So be careful with this
        1. Iraclius
          Iraclius 10 July 2013 12: 18 New
          +3
          I mean solely as an allegory of unwavering stamina and heroic defense of the last forces.
          Balaclava battle. 1854 year. The 93-th Scottish infantry regiment of the Highlanders holds the defense against the Russian Cossack and Hussar detachment. The Scots are commanded by Major General Campbell, who, as you know, told his soldiers: “There will be no order to leave, guys. You must die where you stand. ” A detachment of Scots in red uniforms is very stretched along the front, which is why it seemed to turn into a thin red line.

          Year 1941. The soldiers of the 316th Infantry Division (subsequently the 8th Guards), under the command of Major General Ivan Vasilievich Panfilov, hold the defenses near Moscow, with incredible effort restraining the hordes of Nazis.
          Political instructor Klochkov addresses his fighters: “Russia is great, but nowhere to retreat!”
          Soldiers of the 4th company of the 2th battalion of the 1075th rifle regiment ... Fighters of the Red Army ... A thin red line ...
          So neat?
          1. Rider
            Rider 10 July 2013 12: 37 New
            +4
            Quote: Iraclius
            The Scots are commanded by Major General Campbell, who, as you know, told his soldiers: “There will be no order to leave, guys. You must die where you stand. ”


            and now you can ask Lopatov and Gakhpykh to TRUE describe this battle.

            and then Suddenly there was a scout who there Campbell didn’t say such words, because they didn’t hear them because of the shooting, and the Scots didn’t make them out because of the okcentent.

            It's interesting how in England they will react to these RESEARCHES OF THE HISTORICAL TRUTH.
            1. Gahprom
              Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 39 New
              -3
              and now you can ask Lopatov and Gakhpykh to TRUE describe this battle.

              and make a movie with folk money ??
              1. Rider
                Rider 10 July 2013 12: 41 New
                +1
                Quote: Gahpro
                and make a movie with folk money ??


                you first come forward with revelations.

                and you’re always happy about your own people.
                1. Gahprom
                  Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 53 New
                  -1
                  you first come forward with revelations.

                  and you’re always happy about your own people.

                  you still dare, but it’s still the Stalin prosecutor’s office tried to plant, but to take off the GSS
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 10 July 2013 13: 05 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Gahpro
                    you still dare, but it's Stalin’s prosecutor’s office


                    very well.

                    and yet how about researching and exposing Campbell myths?
              2. Iraclius
                Iraclius 10 July 2013 12: 44 New
                -1
                If the script will be written with the participation of the people, then why not?
                I am sure that your opinions with Lopatov and Pupyrchaty will not be heard.
                1. Gahprom
                  Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 54 New
                  -6
                  Quote: Iraclius
                  If the script will be written with the participation of the people, then why not?
                  I am sure that your opinions with Lopatov and Pupyrchaty will not be heard.

                  I am happy for you, one also shot a movie for the people, and also used only proven material, and then sailing tanks, shoot the sequel until you were thrown))
                  1. Iraclius
                    Iraclius 10 July 2013 13: 10 New
                    +6
                    And you would go out on the 9 of May, go up to the veterans and tell them that there was no 28 Panfilov’s feat. Our old people are still strong, they would have painted your face. And if health is already gone, then they would have spat for sure. Good luck, truth-seeker, I will not wish! Scroll further.
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 10 July 2013 13: 32 New
                      -1
                      Are you sure about that?
                      1. Iraclius
                        Iraclius 10 July 2013 13: 41 New
                        +1
                        At 100%. All the veterans that I know personally would definitely give. Or they spat.
                      2. Rider
                        Rider 10 July 2013 13: 45 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Are you sure about that?


                        and you check.
                      3. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 July 2013 14: 28 New
                        0
                        Unfortunately, this will not work. Those who fought on the front lines have long been dead.
                      4. Rider
                        Rider 10 July 2013 14: 36 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        Those who fought on the front lines have long been dead.


                        Excuse me, but who is going to squares and parks on 9may?

                        fighters of the Tashkent front?

                        Something you did not get there.
                      5. Pimply
                        Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 49 New
                        +1
                        You know how many fake veterans are in parades now?
                      6. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 July 2013 15: 07 New
                        +3
                        Rear officers, sons of regiments, pilots, sailors.
                      7. Rider
                        Rider 10 July 2013 15: 12 New
                        0
                        something is definitely not pulling you there.
                        I PERSONALLY know three EXACTLY FRONTERS.
                        and you see not there and not those you are looking for.
                      8. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 10 July 2013 15: 15 New
                        +1
                        And what, rear officers can not be front-line soldiers?
                      9. Rider
                        Rider 10 July 2013 16: 05 New
                        0
                        But what are all the front-line soldiers-rear officers?
                2. IRBIS
                  IRBIS 10 July 2013 15: 23 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Rider
                  Excuse me, but who is going to squares and parks on 9may?

                  fighters of the Tashkent front?

                  Sorry to interfere. Pay attention to the gathering chest. Talk (only without enthusiastic rapture) with them and you will realize that the vast majority of them have not even seen the front line with binoculars. Unfortunately, there were only a few true veterans in a huge cohort of "followers."
                  The same applies to the "participants" in all kinds of wars that took place quite in the recent past.
                3. Rider
                  Rider 10 July 2013 15: 34 New
                  +1
                  Quote: IRBIS
                  and you will understand that the vast majority of them did not even see the advanced with binoculars.


                  I seem to say that in LIVING I know three REALLY fought.
                  and if you are looking for torpedoes on the Kulikovo field, you will find them.

                  Quote: IRBIS
                  The same applies to the "participants" of all kinds of wars,



                  ??
                4. Pimply
                  Pimply 10 July 2013 15: 39 New
                  -3
                  What are the real warriors for you?
                5. Rider
                  Rider 10 July 2013 15: 41 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Pimply
                  What are the real warriors for you?


                  for me this is a man sitting in trenches, having been under fire, going on the attack, and wandering in retreats.


                  and for you ?
            2. pensioner
              pensioner 10 July 2013 18: 23 New
              +2
              I don’t know if it’s worth it ...
              My uncle Ivan Zvezdin ... (Dmitrievich seems to have forgotten to his shame ...) 1917g. Everything went through that is possible from 39 to 45 + with Japan. Wounded repeatedly. On this basis, they had no children with Aunt Nadia. I didn’t go to any meetings in Perm, but said about them: “I don’t want to look at these clowns ...”. Like this. He died in 2008, in January ...
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 10 July 2013 13: 05 New
    -1
    You cannot build patriotic education on the foundation of outright lies. Revealed even under Stalin. It will do great harm.
    1. T80UM1
      T80UM1 10 July 2013 13: 12 New
      -1
      Germans and Anglo-Squires, Chinese and Japanese are not embarrassed, for example, in the States - betman and superman are heroes, some believe sincerely that they exist, some believe that captain America existed, and their patriotic upbringing does not suffer from this lie ...
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 15 New
        -1
        Quote: T80UM1
        Betman and Superman are heroes, some sincerely believe that they exist, some believe that Captain America existed, and their patriotic upbringing does not seem to suffer from this lie ...

        Tell me, what nonsense are you talking about right now?
        1. T80UM1
          T80UM1 10 July 2013 13: 26 New
          +2
          I mean, why the Germans can believe in their pseudo-heroes, the amers can believe in their fictional heroes, and only you can’t see us, all sorts of citizens appear with foam at the mouth proving that this can’t be done.
    2. Iraclius
      Iraclius 10 July 2013 13: 30 New
      0
      Why such confidence in the veracity of the results of the work of the official commission. How do you know about the real goals they pursued?
      Why do you need to believe the first public statements about the alleged forgery, dating back to 1966 year? How is it certain that Krivitsky was not forced to lie, that supposedly it was his invention? Why did they immediately unconditionally accept the point of view that there was no battle and feat?
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 10 July 2013 14: 06 New
        +3
        The survivors of the GSS posthumously clearly testify to this. At least 9 people.
  • Igarr
    Igarr 10 July 2013 08: 28 New
    +3
    Hello to all...
    Brothers, at least someone can explain clearly.
    How so? There is nothing to defend, the line is stretched 5 times more than the norm.
    No subversive training. The recruits are the same.
    What kept the Fritz?
    The question is not what was kept or not. Uniquely kept!
    The question is - due to which they kept?
    After all, it would never occur to anyone that tanks were being cut by sapper shovels and infantry was driven away by bottles with cops?
    So there was something that did not allow the Germans to take insolently and come "to the front."
    WHY did they Germans also retreat?
    "..But Panfilov’s division held on. It was held for long, impossible long hours and the 2nd battalion. The first blow of the Germans repulsed. With a second strike, the German tank division crushed the battalion. But the units retreated with battles, with terrible losses, but delaying the enemy ... "
    Not a word about the DRAP ... Crumpled, every sixth - walked away..and continued to scare him to death .... an army with two years of experience in maintaining a database, as they like to say. Continued - Wehrmacht tank scare!
    WHAT?
    And how, after this, to relate to the Wehrmacht? How to a bunch of pussies?
    1. T80UM1
      T80UM1 10 July 2013 08: 54 New
      +5
      5 times more than the standard is stretched, but the Mozhaiskaya defense line, a kind of fortified area, 195 guns per 41 km - this is about 5 guns per km. A little, but it is possible not to defend linearly, but in those places where they are advancing, the art of fighters and commanders in time to determine the place of the main attack and concentrate the main number of trunks and people there. Do you understand it?
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 10 July 2013 09: 14 New
        +9
        No, it’s not clear.
        I go from the text of the article - every sixth survived.
        It means that you and I are sitting in a trench and we see that around us 10 people have died. We’ve smoked some of our own with which we’ve just smoked.
        If we are gunners, two cannons aren’t firing already.
        But we are sitting.
        Or we get up and leave for our own. We walked 50 meters, lay down again and let's shoot at the Germans.
        The boundary is already stretched 30 times. And we are shooting.
        How should the Germans feel? What should they think about us?
        Why are we .... unlike all the other warriors in the world - we do not raise our paws up, but continue to fight in those conditions when it is already impossible to fight?
        .
        And not stupid minuses we put - from inability to read?
        ..
        PS .. this quality is not only inherent in us. On the whole. But only with us did it manifest itself - massively.
        So I would like to know - why?
        1. T80UM1
          T80UM1 10 July 2013 09: 21 New
          +2
          In general - this is the second attack on the division in November, I don’t remember exactly where I read, but when one part of the division was defending, the other part was advancing (the regiment was led by B. Momyshuly) in cooperation with other parts of the Red Army. the Germans were seduced and weakened the pressure to repel a flank strike.
          1. Igarr
            Igarr 10 July 2013 09: 34 New
            +6
            Especially.
            The offensive is possible with a minimal superiority of 3: 1. What we see on the example of the Germans.
            Our recruits are a rod against the Germans in violation of all instructions and other things.
            But, surely, Germans' intelligence knew everything — both that they were not fired, and that the new recruits, and that they had just arrived, so they did not manage to establish interaction.
            Instead, the Panfilov Germans settled.
            .
            They were fed something special? They smoked something special? Or was it vodka?
            .
            Those were the boys. Even, perhaps, they have not kissed even once.
            And - right away - in an embrace with Death.
            Frost on the skin.
            1. Hort
              Hort 10 July 2013 10: 22 New
              +1
              Well, if you start from the book "Volokolamsk Highway" (just about Momysh-uly, though I have already forgotten who he was - comrades or battalion commanders), then there weren’t such new recruits there. At least, in Kazakhstan, we managed to learn a little how to shoot and act in a coordinated manner. Plus, there was iron discipline (before the first fights the panicked people were shot without sentiment).
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 10 July 2013 13: 27 New
                +1
                Quote: hort
                just about Momysh-uly, though I already forgot who he was - comrades or battalion commander

                He commanded a battalion.
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 10 July 2013 17: 00 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Flood
                  He commanded a battalion.

                  A month after arriving at the front, Bauyrzhan Momyshuly became a regiment. At the same time, he was with lieutenant stars. In 1944 he received the rank of colonel and commanded a division.
                  1. Beck
                    Beck 10 July 2013 19: 37 New
                    +6
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    A month after arriving at the front, Bauyrzhan Momyshuly became a regiment.


                    I will supplement the characteristic of Baurzhan. For the fights near Moscow they wanted to introduce him to the Hero. But they could not because of Smersh. After his battalion left the encirclement, Smersh took up it - for arbitrariness and abuse of authority. Since Baurzhan personally, before the formation of the battalion, without a tribunal, he shot two fighters who fled from the battlefield.

                    Carried, but also to the Hero was not presented.
        2. T80UM1
          T80UM1 10 July 2013 09: 30 New
          12
          As for the quality of fighting then when it is already impossible. Well, this upbringing is such a character, national traits, a property of the people. Remember the attack of the dead in World War I, or Stalingrad. When the people and the army are united with the government and their politics, probably also a strong factor.
          1. Igarr
            Igarr 10 July 2013 09: 36 New
            +7
            But this is the ANSWER.
            "..When the people and the army are one with the government .." !!!!!
        3. Yegorchik
          Yegorchik 10 July 2013 09: 36 New
          -2
          T 80 is a rhetorical question.
        4. PSih2097
          PSih2097 10 July 2013 09: 46 New
          0
          Quote: Igarr
          Why are we .... unlike all the other warriors in the world - we do not raise our paws up, but continue to fight in those conditions when it is already impossible to fight?

          And so it has always been for centuries.
        5. T80UM1
          T80UM1 10 July 2013 10: 31 New
          +7
          Colonel General Erich Gepner, who commanded the 4th Panzer Group, whose striking forces were defeated in battles with the 8th Guards Division (316), calls it in his reports to the commander of the Center group Fedor von Bock - “the wild division fighting in violation of all charters and rules of warfare, the soldiers of which do not surrender, are extremely fanatical and not afraid of death. "
        6. Beck
          Beck 10 July 2013 11: 42 New
          12
          In my youth I studied at school No. 19 in Almaty. During the war, the headquarters of the formed 316 division was located in the school building. In one of the classes, a museum of the division was created by students and teachers. And then this division did not fall out of my sight.

          Those people who now deny the Panfilov’s feat are walking up the hill, wanting to point a finger at the history of the Second World War. I will say something that I learned, and not only during my school years.

          There was no platoon battle of Panfilov’s soldiers with 50 German tanks - this is not real. There was a FIRM battle and how many tanks the advancing fascists had was unknown. The battle was fierce, the Germans repelled the attack. Repelled with great losses. And this is a feat.

          Propaganda during the war is a sacred affair. After this company battle, a correspondent appeared in the division, from Moscow. At headquarters, he was advised to cover the HEROIC company battle. Having taken the data and maybe having talked with someone, the correspondent left. In Moscow, in the heat of patriotism and propaganda, which should be present in such articles, and even at a dashing time, the correspondent turned the ROYAL battle into a PLATFORM, and the number of German tanks was added to 50. The article was published.

          At the headquarters of the Supreme Commander, this article was accepted in its entirety. And an order was sent to the headquarters of the division 316 to inform the names of the soldiers of the deceased platoon to grant them the titles of Heroes posthumously. From the division they replied that there was a company battle, not a platoon, but the flywheel of the wheels of the military mechanism was already spinning - how can it not be, are you there ??? Then the leadership of the division called 28 names (platoon) of the dead soldiers of that particular company and that of the same company battle, although there were much more victims in that battle. But they did not inspect, four out of 28 were not killed, and were in hospitals with wounds. These are Shemyakin, Likhobaba and two more surnames of which I do not remember.

          This is where all the obscurity comes from. But the battle was not platoon, but company. And the feat was and not only the company, but the whole division. Because - GREAT RUSSIA, AND NEVER HERE TO GO BACK - MOSCOW BEHIND. The words of political instructor Klochkov, and possibly added to Klochkov as a correspondent. But this does not change the essence of the dedication of the fighters.
        7. uhu189
          uhu189 10 July 2013 12: 21 New
          +2
          You are right, miracles do not happen, if you stretch the division evenly over 41 km, then of course you would have broken through its defense right away. They maneuvered reserves very competently, the Germans by that time were far from full-blooded divisions, ours occupied combat positions prepared in the engineering plan (managed to occupy the defense line), actively mined tank-dangerous directions, created blockages, making it difficult for the Germans to maneuver, plus all the same air support from our aviation at that moment was. Well and most importantly - the fighting spirit was huge, there was a desire to win and not let the Germans to Moscow. As a result, they acted in defense beyond all praise - forged superior enemy forces, inflicted significant losses on him and retained combat effectiveness
        8. Corsair
          Corsair 11 July 2013 22: 30 New
          0
          Quote: Igarr
          But we are sitting.

          They clearly explained+ good
    2. avt
      avt 10 July 2013 09: 43 New
      13
      Quote: Igarr
      The question is - at what expense did they keep it?

      In addition to unparalleled courage and heroism due to competent tactical actions. They did not hold the whole front, but the directions. In winter, you can get around the hell of the road with the then German equipment, even on the Minsk highway, the remains of the trenches are still closer to the highway, but there are already no more to the left and to the right of such in the forest. By the way, near Yukhnov, 200 Storchak paratroopers, without artillery at all, kept the road to the approach of the Podolsk artillery cadets. Article plus, it is absolutely necessary at the present time to remind of the ACTION!
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 10 July 2013 10: 01 New
        +2
        So it turns out - an interesting conclusion.
        In addition to courage, heroism, competent tactical actions - there is also luck. Luck.
        For once, the Wehrmacht had a great success - to crush the Red Army in border battles.
        But, until December, they could not do anything. To implement.
        200 paratroopers hold a group of Guderian. Podolsk cadets put an end .. on Guderian himself. After the fall of 1941, he choked and went there ... rummaging around in the rear.
        ....
        But what if God is with us? And if with us - Madam Luck?
        Who is against us?
      2. MakSim51ru
        MakSim51ru 10 July 2013 11: 51 New
        +1
        That's right, there is no solid front, but there are separate fortified points: settlements, road crossings, heights. And competent fire control. The benefit of the guns attached. And you can’t get around bypassing and you won’t leave behind you.
      3. Beck
        Beck 10 July 2013 11: 54 New
        +6
        Quote: avt
        They did not hold the whole front, but the directions.


        I completely agree. General Panfilov first applied this tactic. There was no strength on the solid front line. Type of outposts saddled roads, road junctions, important settlements. The first "outpost" took the battle when it was already worn out, but another "outpost" stood on the road behind it.
    3. Rakti-kali
      Rakti-kali 10 July 2013 09: 59 New
      +5
      Quote: Igarr
      The question is - at what expense did they keep it?

      Read the book of Alexander Beck "Volokolamsk highway." The book is based on conversations with Bauyrzhan Momysh-ula, the battalion commander of the 1073th Talgar Rifle Regiment of the 316th Rifle Division. Although it is artistic, it can give an answer to your question.
      1. kazssr
        kazssr 10 July 2013 10: 56 New
        +1
        if they don’t betray me, then this book is taught at the academy entirely.
      2. Gahprom
        Gahprom 10 July 2013 11: 58 New
        +1
        Read the book of Alexander Beck "Volokolamsk highway."


        I’m not filming this book of filmmakers, for some reason ...
        maybe because PR is "28" abruptly? And here it is necessary to work, to be engaged
        a decent book
      3. Beck
        Beck 10 July 2013 12: 16 New
        +5
        Quote: Rakti-Kali
        Read the book of Alexander Beck "Volokolamsk highway." The book is based on conversations with Bauyrzhan Momysh-ula, the battalion commander of the 1073th Talgar Rifle Regiment of the 316th Rifle Division.


        I will light up a little the battalion of Baurzhan Momysh-ula.

        During the formation of the division, in Almaty, Baurzhan led his battalion for planned firing, out of town. When the targets were set Baurzhan came up with the idea to give all the battalion on the TALP targets. As I thought and ordered. A salvo was fired (about 700 rifles) and the battalion was left without targets, scattered into smithereens.

        Near Moscow, the Baurzhan’s battalion was cut off and out of the woods. It was necessary to cross the road, but German troops and cars moved along it in an endless stream. Baurzhan built a battalion with a rhombus, in the middle of a convoy, and of course the two rear sides of the rhombus could not shoot directly in the direction of travel, but they could shoot at an angle to the road, increasing the fired line of the road.

        The battalion rhombus moved out of the forest and began to cross the road giving volleys of battalion fire. Shreds flew from the Nazi soldiers, chips from motor vehicles. Crossing the road, the battalion continued to give volleys until it went deep into the forest. Somewhere on a kilometer stretch of road corpses and wrecked cars of fascist troops were smoking.
  • Homeless
    Homeless 10 July 2013 08: 34 New
    +5
    Thank you for the article!
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 July 2013 08: 37 New
    19
    The author is a big plus and my deep respect. I wrote everything absolutely correctly.
    When I meet another miracle on the Internet with the letter "m" beginning to tear my throat about the fictitious feat of the Panfilov’s, I always answer one thing - the correspondent is really an inventor. He said that there were only 28 panfilovites. And there the Panfilov’s were the whole division, they fought like that, under such conditions, and no one dreamed of such an enemy.
    You show me who, NU WHO in the 1939 - 1941 year could withstand the blow of the Wehrmacht tank division? Poles? These people seem to have the best result for three days, despite the fact that the Polish soldiers fought on equal footing and sat in the fortress themselves. French people? It’s not funny at all, they lost the whole war in less time than the Panfilov’s defended. The British? Whom Rommel in the Desert with much less power slipper drove?
    And here - the regiment against the division, the division against three - and held on and beat the enemy! They are heroes. Everything.
    And we ... one miracle with the letter "m" "removes the great film about the great war," the second - the Panfilov’s feat is a disgrace, the third - hundreds of millions of losses of the USSR in the Second World War ...
    1. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets 10 July 2013 13: 31 New
      0
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      The British? Whom Rommel in the Desert with much less power slipper drove?

      Well, what are you? In Africa, the fate of WWII was decided, in Africa, on Sicily, and even a few atolls in the Pacific Ocean. wink
  • Turkish
    Turkish Granite 10 July 2013 08: 44 New
    15
    I am not very interested in the latest historical studies of liberal “truth-seekers”, I was taught at school, at history lessons and at meetings with veterans that Panfilov’s were and their feat is immortal, which means that it was so.
    1. Yegorchik
      Yegorchik 10 July 2013 09: 58 New
      +3
      Yes, actually nikher these studies do not prove. just trying to slander our story.
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 10 July 2013 11: 45 New
      -5
      That is, you prefer to forget the real Panfilovites and believe in fictional?
      1. Yegorchik
        Yegorchik 10 July 2013 17: 11 New
        11
        That's why they became fictitious. Did these people fight in the 316th division? Fought. Did they fight heroically and almost all died? Yes again. It is impossible to bury all the dead in 1941 at the Kremlin wall, therefore there is a grave of an unknown soldier, it symbolizes those who are worth The Germans stopped their lives. So here 28 Panfilov’s men are the quintessence of the memory of the entire division that performed the miracle. And the fact that you’re building a truth seeker here is not worth anything, your attempts to prove that there weren’t 28 Panfilov’s under Dubosekovo lodges uh That’s for sure. The defense of the division was not whole, and even 4 companies could be divided into separate centers of resistance, how many were there, how you fought, not you, I don’t know, but your attempt to prove that it wasn’t just a chatter. so that their battle looks like that and it is our right.
  • omsbon
    omsbon 10 July 2013 09: 14 New
    +5
    Good people want to make a good film about the EXPERIENCE of Soviet people!
    Honor and praise!
    Let's help them! To which account to transfer money? There is only one condition, the script must be published in order to know what we are paying for.
    1. Rider
      Rider 10 July 2013 11: 38 New
      0
      Quote: omsbon
      Let's help them! To which account to transfer money?


      strongly support!

      if anyone is in the know, post the address to contact.

      I have both grandfathers 310s.d.
      formed in the Kazakh SSR Akmolinsk (now Astana)

      Northwestern front Sinyavinsky heights, Neva Piglet.
      one in 42g, the second in breaking the blockade in 44g.

      let it be in memory of them.
      1. omsbon
        omsbon 10 July 2013 12: 34 New
        +3
        Quote: Rider
        Nevsky Piglet.
        one in 42g, the second in breaking the blockade in 44g.

        Alexander! Today at 16 p.m. I am taking my guests who have arrived to me to the Nevsky Piglet and to the diorama "Breakthrough of the Siege of Leningrad."
        In memory of your grandfathers I will put flowers at the obelisks.

        PS There was no northwestern front; there were the Leningrad and Volkhov fronts.
        1. Rider
          Rider 10 July 2013 12: 39 New
          +1
          Quote: omsbon
          In memory of your grandfathers I will put flowers at the obelisks.


          thank you very much !

          Quote: omsbon
          PS There was no northwestern front; there were the Leningrad and Volkhov fronts


          Yes, I indicated it as a direction.
          Thank you for the amendment and your participation.
          1. omsbon
            omsbon 10 July 2013 14: 52 New
            0
            I’ll come home, I’ll report!
          2. omsbon
            omsbon 10 July 2013 19: 40 New
            +3
            Quote: Rider
            In memory of your grandfathers I will put flowers at the obelisks.

            Dear Alexander!
            Very ashamed, but did not get into one of the planned places. We went with the children, got into two terrible traffic jams in the city and another repair of the bridge across the Neva. The children were different, my guests asked to return.
            I will certainly fulfill my promise, do not worry. Sorry again!
            1. Rider
              Rider 10 July 2013 19: 46 New
              0
              Quote: omsbon
              Dont worry. Sorry again!


              I'm not in a claim.

              Thanks for the effort.

              for memory.

              shake your hand.
              1. omsbon
                omsbon 11 July 2013 00: 00 New
                0
                Quote: Rider
                shake your hand.

                Mutually!
                I will fulfill the promise.
                Good night.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. omsbon
                  omsbon 15 July 2013 23: 42 New
                  +2
                  Dear Alexander!
                  The promise is fulfilled.
                  In memory of your two grandfathers, on the Nevsky Piglet, these icon lamps burn!
                  With all respect, Andrew.
                3. omsbon
                  omsbon 15 July 2013 23: 45 New
                  0
                  This is a chapel on the Nevsky Piglet.
            2. Yarbay
              Yarbay 11 July 2013 01: 04 New
              +3
              Quote: omsbon
              Dear Alexander!
              Very ashamed, but did not get into one of the planned places. We went with the children, got into two terrible traffic jams in the city and another repair of the bridge across the Neva. The children were different, my guests asked to return.
              I will certainly fulfill my promise, do not worry. Sorry again!

              I am proud to meet you!
              I sincerely wish you all the help of the Almighty !!
      2. RA77
        RA77 10 July 2013 14: 43 New
        +1
        Quote: omsbon
        Let's help them! To which account to transfer money?

        Quote: Rider
        if anyone is in the know, post the address to contact.


        This topic has already been covered on topwar:
        http://topwar.ru/29756-piterskaya-nezavisimaya-studiya-pod-rukovodstvom-andreya-
        shalopy-snimaet-film-pro-podvig-28-panfilovcev.html

        Here is a link to the site where you can transfer money:
        http://boomstarter.ru/projects/36881/28_panfilovtsev
  • Stiletto
    Stiletto 10 July 2013 09: 21 New
    +3
    It's not a matter of numbers - 28, 27, 30, but the feat of our soldiers. How many of them died - nameless, unaccounted for? And what - did their step into eternity fade from this?
  • JIaIIoTb
    JIaIIoTb 10 July 2013 09: 24 New
    0
    Was this a feat?

    Yes, it was a miracle!
    And that's it.
  • sapsan14
    sapsan14 10 July 2013 09: 31 New
    +5
    This is a feat that is impossible in essence ... Anyone who sees a live enemy going to attack will understand ... No matter how many of our guys were, in that war, the inner human spirit fought. They fought not with weapons, but with hearts, feelings, love for the family, the Motherland ... Look into the eyes of our ancestors: bright, without malice (although everyone has a heart stone) ... It was impossible to defeat them ...
    Always showing to my sons
    1. T80UM1
      T80UM1 10 July 2013 09: 47 New
      +6
      By the way, the work of B. Vasiliev "Did not appear on the lists" is a masterpiece, but the film adaptation is not enough.
      1. sapsan14
        sapsan14 10 July 2013 10: 16 New
        0
        it's already 95 years old. Unfortunately, not the USSR. The book is strong - I do not argue. The film, of course, is not an Oscar, but two points are indicative for me: the selfless "everyday" heroism of the Russian soldier and the words of ev.ey: go surrender - they will kill you anyway, but we should live ...
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 10 July 2013 09: 50 New
    +4
    I don’t know ... Why is this beautiful legend, when there is a real Panfilov division. Which was practically not provided either by artillery or PTR. And this division did not stop anyhow anyone, but the 2nd Panzer. The best tank division of the Wehrmacht. Which was created and trained by Guderian himself, practically the main German theoretician of the use of tank troops.
    1. Bronis
      Bronis 10 July 2013 10: 19 New
      +4
      Quote: Spade
      I don’t know ... Why is this beautiful legend, when there is a real Panfilov division.
      At that time, this "legend" was needed. And urgently needed. In the days when everything was decided, it was completely justified. Moreover, the story is real, only with other factual circumstances. After the war, by the way, Krivitsky was questioned for this reason (the authorities wanted to describe everything exactly). And even then they came to the conclusion that the specific circumstances did not correspond to the newspaper. The story with the same Dobrobaba is quite muddy ...
      But this does not change the alignment. I see no reason to prove something to anyone. Now they love to tear some throats. Yeah! not 28! Not all Russians! And the tanks are not 50!
      They would be in that meat grinder ... We can dig to the truth, study materials. But we have no moral right to mock it. If there weren’t those people and their self-sacrifice, we wouldn’t discuss the numbers now ...
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 10 July 2013 11: 41 New
        -2
        And I am against replacing the real feat of the Panfilov division with a beautiful fairy tale. Then she might have been needed, but not now.
        1. Gahprom
          Gahprom 10 July 2013 11: 47 New
          -2
          quietly, the so-called patriots zaminusuyu.
          they don’t like to think, it’s inconvenient for them to learn the history of their country, they believe in fairy tales about 28 and absolutely, not one knows about Panfilov’s division and its feat))
          let them give money, they’ll throw it all the same, 100% is a trust
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 10 July 2013 12: 01 New
            -8
            Yes, let them at least be minuscule. I know that everything was much tougher, worse and more heroic than in a bast picture about 28 people.
            1. Gahprom
              Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 05 New
              -6
              and I know, because I love and study the history of my country, and I write squeals and slogans.
              1. seafarer
                seafarer 11 July 2013 02: 23 New
                -1
                Quote: Gahpro
                and I know, because I love and study the history of my country, and I write squeals and slogans.


                So write yourself, if you know, about the feat of 316 sd fighters! Write no lubok - the truth!
                Only this is harder to do than "otminusovat" opponent.
            2. Pimply
              Pimply 10 July 2013 12: 09 New
              -1
              This is what we are talking about. Here, popular bread is sweeter than real people, who drank victory with blood, real blood, not fictitious.
        2. Bronis
          Bronis 10 July 2013 12: 21 New
          +4
          Quote: Spade
          And I am against replacing the real feat of the Panfilov division with a beautiful fairy tale.

          Yes, it's not a replacement. 70 years have passed, no need to break the spears. History must be treated calmly and with respect. Yes, it was different. Denying this is stupid. There is evidence for that. Well and full
          Well, what about substituting for "fairy tales". In most cases, a fairy tale becomes, as they say, a trash. You yourself see how they try to distort history. In the USSR they painted a "popular print". There were political reasons for this. In general, this is characteristic not only of the USSR but also of all countries in general. Well, the leaders could not say then that they had allowed the catastrophe of 1941, they had made such terrible losses ... it would have been a panic and a catastrophe - an inevitable loss. People had to give hope ... And after the war - who will admit their mistakes ... again, politics. Now it’s also politics. Most of the historians-grandparents do not care what Dubosekov had. They are not concerned about the truth, but about money and their internal megalomania.
          A banal example. Thesis "Stalin is guilty of 30 million victims of WWII." As a leader - to a very large extent - yes, although he is not alone, but the leadership as a whole. The actions of the leadership led to the occupation of the vast territory of the USSR, but the Germans exterminated the population there ...
          So here "Panfilovites were not 28" - "There were no German tanks" - "There was no division" - etc. This is why any action gives rise to opposition ...
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 10 July 2013 11: 46 New
      -7
      This is exactly what we are talking about. Blind faith in the 28 Panfilov’s heroized is a betrayal of the memory of the real Panfilov’s.
      1. Gahprom
        Gahprom 10 July 2013 11: 48 New
        -4
        This is exactly what we are talking about. Blind faith in the 28 Panfilov’s heroized is a betrayal of the memory of the real Panfilov’s.

        100%
        but not all screechers understand this, wait for the cons.))
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 11: 58 New
          +7
          Afraid of the Munus - do not go to Topwar 8)
          1. Bronis
            Bronis 10 July 2013 12: 24 New
            +3
            Quote: Pimply
            Afraid of the Munus - do not go to Topwar 8)
            Sorry, add: ... not hiding nationality!))
            1. ultra
              ultra 10 July 2013 12: 40 New
              -1
              Quote: Bronis
              . without hiding nationality!))

              Do you minus this?
              1. Bronis
                Bronis 10 July 2013 12: 57 New
                +2
                Yes, rather, plus! drinks In general, the pros and cons are conditional and mostly meaningless.
          2. ultra
            ultra 10 July 2013 12: 39 New
            0
            Quote: Pimply
            Afraid of the Munus - do not go to Topwar 8)

            good hi
        2. ultra
          ultra 10 July 2013 12: 39 New
          +1
          Quote: Gahpro
          all screeches understand this, wait for the cons.))

          So much for the minus! For disrespect for the interlocutors!
          1. Gahprom
            Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 56 New
            -5
            So much for the minus! For disrespect for the interlocutors!

            mutually, minus is a weakness, when there is nothing to say except a slogan, there remains a minus
            1. ultra
              ultra 10 July 2013 14: 57 New
              -1
              Quote: Gahpro
              when to say nothing but a slogan, there remains a minus

              You still didn’t understand why I minus you! And you’re trying to send them to the library! As for your slogans, I don’t do this, I almost never minus for the position, but always for rudeness!
        3. Vladimirets
          Vladimirets 10 July 2013 13: 34 New
          +2
          Quote: Gahpro
          but not all screechers understand this, wait for the cons.))

          You insert comments about minuses through a comment, implicitly run into pluses? smile
      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 July 2013 12: 05 New
        +7
        Everything would be fine, but for some reason, subversive authors usually write that the exploit of the 28 Panfilov’s is a fiction, but for some reason they don’t write about the heroic combat path of the Panfilov’s division. Why do you think so?
        And, yes, can a question not connected with Panfilov’s be possible? Why is it that in a well-known photograph of Americans raising a flag over captured Iwo Jima, it is not written anywhere that the frame is staged? What actually flag was set by a different and completely different fighters earlier?
        1. Gahprom
          Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 16 New
          -4
          Everything would be fine, but for some reason, subversive authors usually write that the exploit of the 28 Panfilov’s is a fiction, but for some reason they don’t write about the heroic combat path of the Panfilov’s division. Why do you think so?

          because as it is said more than, you go to the library (this is where the books are kept) and ask for this period.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 July 2013 13: 04 New
            +3
            Quote: Gahpro
            because as it is said more than, you go to the library (this is where the books are kept) and ask for this period.

            I do not ask you what is written in the books, for I have some reason to suppose that I know that they write a little more than you. I ask about numerous online publications refuting the Panfilov’s 28 feat but not saying anything about the valor of the Panfilov’s division.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 13 New
              +1
              Give publications.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 July 2013 13: 53 New
                +1
                http://hedrook.vho.org/library/panfil.htm
                http://www.topsecretz.net/blog/histori/122.html
                http://historylost.ru/articles/destiny/748-28-panfilovcev-vechnaya-slava-pavshim
                -vyzhivshim.html - through this link, the feat of the other Panfilov’s as it were mentioned ... in this form
                The opinion of historians is as follows: indeed, the soldiers of the Panfilov’s division showed heroism by delaying the advance of tanks for four hours and allowing the command to pull up troops for a decisive battle.
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 12: 20 New
          0
          What does it mean - it’s not written anywhere? It was written everywhere, a film about this was shot, and the fact that the photo is not a photograph of raising the first flag was explained almost immediately. Moreover, the photo is not staged. The soldiers simply removed one flag, which the general wanted to keep, and replaced it with another. This is the moment from which Rosenthal captured.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 July 2013 13: 09 New
            +2
            Quote: Pimply
            What does it mean - it’s not written anywhere? Written everywhere

            Everywhere - where is this, sorry? Remind Russian-speaking sources, if not difficult
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 21 New
              +2
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

              Everywhere - where is this, sorry? Remind Russian-speaking sources, if not difficult


              And why Russian-speaking? Let's start with the originals

              http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq87-3l.htm
              http://www.ap.org/pages/about/pulitzer/rosenthal.html

              http://www.netlore.ru/iwojima_flag
              http://waralbum.ru/5098/

              In general - write Flag hoisting over Iwo Jima. You are waiting for surprises.
              1. Rider
                Rider 10 July 2013 13: 28 New
                +2
                Quote: Pimply
                In general - write Flag hoisting over Iwo Jima. You are waiting for surprises.


                however, mind you, no one is trying to talk about this topic, no one is publishing stories on TV.
                Do not try to comb to the blood.

                and I’m almost sure that with the education there, ONE KNOWS.
                and try to debunk the "myth" so easily get into a turnip.

                and for the cause.
                with national pride you need to be more careful.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 46 New
                  +1
                  How do you know? There is a film that is dedicated to this event, there are documentaries - and not one - you claim that no one is replicating. And who is replicating in Russia?
                2. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 10 July 2013 14: 08 New
                  -2
                  They don’t “swing” it. They are corny telling the truth.
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 10 July 2013 14: 20 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Spade
                    They are corny truth.


                    I will answer both you and Eugene.

                    they REALLY tell the truth, but do so without tearing the COVER RIPPERS.
                    Now take the same film about the flag on Iwo Jima, did the filmmakers focus on this?
                    no, of course, in the center of the narrative is the heroism and dedication of the American soldiers of sailors and marines.
                    why when it comes to our history. require DOCUMENTAL accuracy?

                    why is it easier to debunk the "myth" than to track down the archives and publish the exploit of unknown heroes?
                    maybe because now they don’t pay for heroes, but pay just for debunking?
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 46 New
                      -1
                      No, they want to cut the dough on myth and pseudo-patriotism
                    2. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 10 July 2013 14: 49 New
                      +2
                      Now I'm watching the dock. a film about the counterattack in the Ardennes. American. Everything is fair. And the fact that Eisenhower believed in its beginning only the next day. That because of the disagreement of Patton and Bradley, the 101st airborne assault suffered unjustified losses.
                      1. Rider
                        Rider 10 July 2013 16: 47 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Spade
                        doc a film about the counterattack in the Ardennes. American. Everything is fair.


                        Yes, the fact of the matter is that NOT EVERYTHING is honest.
                        I also watched the discovery, where the failure in the Ardennes was called "a coup that knocked out tanks from the Germans"
                        and the landing of 101 "decisive factors2 allowed to gnaw through the defense of the coast.

                        so do not show their masmedia "guardians of crystalline historical truth"

                        and what are they shooting about the eastern front ...
                3. Snoop
                  Snoop 12 July 2013 17: 59 New
                  0
                  What for? In fact, hoisting the flag over Iwo Jima is just an image for the American people, the image of their grandfathers defeating the Japanese, just as 28 Panfilov’s are the image of those fighters and commanders of the spacecraft standing to death near Moscow.
              2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 July 2013 14: 03 New
                +3
                Well, you answered my second question. Thank. First left
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 12 New
                  +1
                  He answered the first one. It’s easier to find material about the flag with the mention that this was not the first whirling than without it. So go ahead.
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 July 2013 14: 31 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Pimply
                    He answered the first one.

                    The first question was
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Everything would be fine, but for some reason, subversive authors usually write that the exploit of the 28 Panfilov’s is a fiction, but for some reason they don’t write about the heroic combat path of the Panfilov’s division. Why do you think so?

                    This is if forgotten
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 10 July 2013 14: 49 New
                      0
                      Give examples, plz.
                      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 10 July 2013 14: 55 New
                        +2
                        Cited above
      3. Lopatov
        Lopatov 10 July 2013 12: 12 New
        -2
        Here I am about that. There was generally something beyond the limits. The 1075th SP lost in this battle more than a third of its full-time, the ratio of killed to wounded is four to one. That is, they simply froze to death due to the impossibility of evacuation.
        And in such conditions they stopped the Germans.

        Instead, we are offered lubok.
        1. Gahprom
          Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 23 New
          -3
          Instead, we are offered lubok.

          we are not entirely offered lubok, we are offered Samopiar, on a hackneyed topic, playing on the feelings of people tired of slag, this is marketing and divorce, clean water.
      4. Bronis
        Bronis 10 July 2013 12: 27 New
        +1
        Yes, let them take off, if they take off. Ships on the video, the authors were inspired by the 300 Spartans ... The art picture is not a historical study. I looked at Mikhalkov’s paintings - oh, dear mother ... I need to balance laughing
        1. Gahprom
          Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 34 New
          -3
          I looked at Mikhalkov’s paintings - oh, dear mother ... I need to balance

          counterbalance shit?
          Who said that the expectations would come true? Someone saw what the author had done before? Can Belarusians give a rent?
          1. Bronis
            Bronis 10 July 2013 13: 05 New
            +2
            Quote: Gahpro
            counterbalance shit?

            Well, they didn’t take it off, but they called it crap, sorry. laughing
            I won’t wait for Mikhalkov’s opuses for 5 years ... I didn’t call names ... I tasted this miracle of cinema ... for sure ... it, darling ... Only then did I begin to stigmatize. wassat
            In the meantime, I do not believe much in the project ... for various reasons.
      5. ultra
        ultra 10 July 2013 12: 37 New
        +4
        Quote: Pimply
        Blind faith in the 28 Panfilov’s heroized is a betrayal of the memory of the real Panfilov’s.

        Complete nonsense! Firstly, there is no blind faith, and secondly, the glorification of some is not a betrayal of others!
        1. Gahprom
          Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 41 New
          -1
          Complete nonsense! Firstly, there is no blind faith, and secondly, the glorification of some is not a betrayal of others!

          vskidku, without Google are you able to talk about the entire military way of the division? I doubt, and even if you can, how many people like you?
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 12: 57 New
          -4
          Just there. There is a heroization of the myth. And ignoring reality.
          1. ultra
            ultra 10 July 2013 15: 03 New
            +5
            Quote: Pimply
            There is a heroization of the myth. And ignoring reality.

            Are you talking about “Private Ryan”? Or about how our overseas “friends” “saved” the world (including us) from Nazism?
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 10 July 2013 15: 05 New
              -2
              Private Ryan does not declare that he was shot on real events.
              1. ultra
                ultra 11 July 2013 11: 18 New
                0
                I’m afraid the American citizen does not suspect about this (how much more about that)! As far as fooling the US population is concerned, there are no equal!
  • Begemot
    Begemot 10 July 2013 09: 55 New
    +2
    I would have looked at some kind of bribe that would have allowed myself to pour slop on the heroes of the war that year in 1970, and he or she would be drowned in the toilet. And now you can, anyone can smudge his guano from the memory of the heroes. Liberasty.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 10 July 2013 10: 11 New
      +1
      You would understand the history of the issue. With the materials of the GWP investigation and with all other publications of the Soviet era. Not everything is as simple as you think. And the first to raise this question in 1947 were not some "liberalists"
      1. Rider
        Rider 10 July 2013 11: 47 New
        +4
        Quote: Spade
        Would you sort out the history of the issue


        so what lopatov?
        Well, you are an intelligent person, you are well aware of WHO is sticking it out NOW, and it is beneficial for WHOM to smear our history with black paint.
        Well, let them whitewash them, they say for the truth, for historical justice.

        from THEIR truths pulls.

        these would be truth-cutters, but an ice pick on the head.
        1. Gahprom
          Gahprom 10 July 2013 11: 49 New
          -4
          so what lopatov?
          Well, you are an intelligent person, you are well aware of WHO is sticking it out NOW, and it is beneficial for WHOM to smear our history with black paint.
          Well, let them whitewash them, they say for the truth, for historical justice.

          from THEIR truths pulls.

          these would be truth-cutters, but an ice pick on the head.

          Who pays Isaev? Rezun probably
          who pays Dukov? probably the Baltic states ....
          1. Rider
            Rider 10 July 2013 12: 10 New
            11
            Quote: Gahpro
            Who pays Isaev?


            listen to gah.

            you lovers to gut the truth for some reason always with a joyful screech dissect myths with a sign (+)

            I’ve never seen anyone like you. undertook to debunk the black myths about the war, or country.

            in the branches about all sorts of penal battles, and the detachments you will not find with the exposure of these horror stories.

            but when you need to cheat Panfilov’s, or sailor’s, like you appear with enviable consistency.

            you really need
            well, so she really
            war is stink dirt and death
            and in medical sambats there is a stench from stool and vomiting, because many of the pain can not restrain themselves.
            and many shit after promedol, because the insides relax.

            THERE IS IT KONDOVA THE UNDECORATED TRUTH ON THE WAR.
            so let's shoot films about it, duplicate Dermo in print.

            however, in NORMAL films about the war, they show not this, but daily combat work.
            show strength, solidarity, mutual assistance.
            furious impulse of attack and tooth grinding of defense.

            but give the bowel movements to you.
            1. Gahprom
              Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 28 New
              -10
              you lovers to gut the truth for some reason always with a joyful screech dissect myths with a sign (+)

              I’ve never seen anyone like you. undertook to debunk the black myths about the war, or country.

              in the branches about all sorts of penal battles, and the detachments you will not find with the exposure of these horror stories.

              but when you need to cheat Panfilov’s, or sailor’s, like you appear with enviable consistency.


              Again a conspiracy? Again around the enemy of panic panic? (C)
              Listen, screech, each of these historians wrote as much about the history of his country, so many liberal myths debunked, how many SMSes you did not write to your girlfriend.
              each of them wrote for 4 days in May, a penal battalion and UG2, and Antirezun, and Antisolonin
              And you advocate of morality what you did, scribbled a lot of work on the war, to smear decent people like that?

              but give the bowel movements to you.

              Did you notice that this topic has not been raised before you? I look, it excites you ...
              1. Rider
                Rider 10 July 2013 13: 00 New
                +3
                Quote: Gahpro
                Listen, screech, each of these historians wrote as much


                Listen to the dirt digger, I read them all.
                and I don’t need to cry here in a vest.
                hiding behind normal historians and writers.

                Quote: Gahpro
                Did you notice that this topic has not been raised before you?


                Well, you really wanted the truth?
                here she is.
                naked and without beauty.

                just some talk about the feat, while others prefer to see the lobes.

                You have already proven that you are sweet.
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 12: 00 New
          -12
          Again a conspiracy? Again around the enemy is a panic panic?
        3. Lopatov
          Lopatov 10 July 2013 12: 16 New
          -4
          And who is trying to replace Panfilov’s real feat with a lie revealed back in 1947? I can’t call them patriots. And you?

          After all, after the release of such a film, this question will certainly arise in full growth. And instead of a patriotic film, a zilch will come out, which is more likely to do harm. Why do you think this is necessary for those who are now mowing down patriots?
          1. Rider
            Rider 10 July 2013 12: 28 New
            +3
            Quote: Spade
            And instead of a patriotic film, a zilch will come out, which is more likely to do harm.


            the film has not yet been released, no one has even seen the script.

            but everyone already KNOW what and how it will be there.

            but okay, persuaded, the movie about the war is not nada.

            let's confine ourselves to penal battles, weary of conscience, and hunters.
            Now it is relevant.
            1. Gahprom
              Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 35 New
              -5
              the film has not yet been released, no one has even seen the script.

              but everyone already KNOW what and how it will be there.

              but okay, persuaded, the movie about the war is not nada.

              let's confine ourselves to penal battles, weary of conscience, and hunters.
              Now it is relevant.

              I’m saying, you don’t know anything, unlike you, we talked with the afftor, I learned a lot
            2. Lopatov
              Lopatov 10 July 2013 13: 09 New
              +1
              No need to sing soldier songs. The authors have already written the script. And they spoke unambiguously about the film:

              In this battle, the 28 Panfilovs, entrenched near the Dubosekovo junction, stood in the way of the German tank battalion ... And stopped him.
              The feat of 28-i Panfilov heroes became one of the brightest symbols of the battle for Moscow.
              1. Rider
                Rider 10 July 2013 17: 07 New
                +3
                Quote: Spade
                No need to sing soldier songs. The authors have already written the script. And they spoke unambiguously about the film:

                In this battle, the 28 Panfilovs, entrenched near the Dubosekovo junction, stood in the way of the German tank battalion ... And stopped him.
                The feat of 28-i Panfilov heroes became one of the brightest symbols of the battle for Moscow.


                and what, is it BAD?
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 10 July 2013 17: 50 New
                  -5
                  Poorly. Because you cannot bring up true patriotism on a lie.
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 10 July 2013 18: 03 New
                    +5
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Poorly. Because you cannot bring up true patriotism on a lie.


                    Oh really ?
                    but in America they teach that the Allies won 2MB.
                    in Israel, that there is no occupation of Palestinian lands, but all this is the original land of the chosen people.
                    the French are doing their utmost to stamp films about Mackey, and not a word about Charlemagne.

                    I understand that all this is false patriotism?

                    recently, the Germans took off about their mamans and dads, and nothing went wrong.
                    even we went for hire.

                    and again (already in which)
                    WHY FOR LIES?
                    Panfilov’s division fought - fought.
                    Dubosekov’s battle was - was.
                    Political instructor Klochkov participated and died - but participated and died heroically.
                    Is there no survivors of the battle?

                    Yes, they did not all die, and there were not 28

                    BUT IS ALL THE FOLLOWING FALSE?

                    but the fact that you’re muttering here "oh, everything was wrong, and there. and not with those" - TOTAL STUPIDness.
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 10 July 2013 18: 31 New
                      -3
                      Can you give me exactly what they teach in America? Where does he teach? Who is teaching.

                      Quote: Rider
                      WHY FOR LIES?

                      Because this fight was not. It was different. And you need to learn in schools
                      1. Rider
                        Rider 10 July 2013 18: 48 New
                        0
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Can you give me exactly what they teach in America? Where does he teach? Who is teaching.


                        Please enjoy.

                        “Victory in Europe. Following companies in North Africa and Italy, the Allies opened up the western front against weakened Germans. 6 June 1944 Allied ships with 156 000 soldiers aboard landed in Normandy, the north coast of France. Known as D-Day, the landing in Normandy was the beginning of a massive Allied march to the east. Six months later, the Allied armies reached Germany. After the last attempt to achieve success in December 1944, known as the Battle of the Ardennes, the German army was crushed. Allies declared victory in Europe 8 May 1945. "

                        taken:http://warfiles.ru/show-7648-kak-prepodnosyat-istoriyu-vtoroy-mirovoy-voyny-v-ss
                        ha.html


                        Well, here's what the kids write. GOT KNOWLEDGE BY SUCH TEXTBOOKS.
                        “Without the USA, the whole world would speak German”
                        March, 23, 2003
                        “We must recall from history that millions of people did not want the United States to enter either the Second World War or the First. If we had not entered the First World War, then maybe everyone would have spoken German and there would have been no democracy in the world ... As for the Second World War, while we waited, millions of people died in German camps and the Germans captured a large part of Europe. "
                        Joseph John Rosengast
                        North Carolina, United States

                        “You must not be biased towards the country that saved you from fascism”
                        March 24, 2003
                        “You should not be so biased towards a country that saved you from Nazi leadership in World War II and that constantly helps you.”
                        “It is well known that Russia wants to get Iraqi oil, and this is precisely the reason that Russia is against the war.”
                        “Communism in Russia died thanks to America, and it cost us dearly”
                        "LeaderOf XMI"

                        taken:http://oko-planet.su/oko-planet/politik/politwar/190719-vy-ne-dolzhny-byt-predvz
                        yaty-k-strane-kotoraya-spasla-vas-ot-fashizma.html
                      2. Beck
                        Beck 10 July 2013 20: 10 New
                        +5
                        Here, a fellow countryman, I do not agree with the excerpts quoted by you.

                        Quote: Rider
                        “Victory in Europe. Following companies in North Africa and Italy, the Allies opened up the western front against weakened Germans. 6 June 1944 Allied ships with 156 000 soldiers aboard landed in Normandy, the north coast of France. Known as D-Day, the landing in Normandy was the beginning of a massive Allied march to the east. Six months later, the Allied armies reached Germany. After the last attempt to achieve success in December 1944, known as the Battle of the Ardennes, the German army was crushed. Allies declared victory in Europe 8 May 1945. "


                        There is not a single word here that the USA won the war. It is even said that the Germans were weakened at the time of the landing, and only the actions of the Red Army were weakened. This excerpt gives a brief chronology of the actions of US troops and all And the last thing - the Allies proclaimed Victory, for some reason you think only about the USA. Although all countries of the anti-Hitler Wallace were allies, they declared victory, this is implied.

                        Quote: Rider
                        “We must recall from history that millions of people did not want the United States to enter either the Second World War or the First. If we had not entered the First World War, then maybe everyone would have spoken German and there would have been no democracy in the world...As for the Second World War, while we were waiting, millions of people died in German camps and the Germans captured most of Europe ”.


                        And here is only an assumption that it could be so. And in the second part, and regret that the United States entered the war late, which killed millions of people.

                        Quote: Rider
                        “You must not be biased towards the country that saved you from fascism”


                        Similar words are spoken in CIS schools, but the country is called Russia. This is a lesson in patriotism and so that children know.

                        Quote: Rider
                        “You should not be so biased towards a country that saved you from Nazi leadership in World War II and that constantly helps you.”


                        And here is the lesson of patriotism. And in our schools they also say that children should be grateful to their homeland for getting rid of fascism.
                      3. Rider
                        Rider 10 July 2013 20: 27 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Beck
                        Here is a fellow countryman


                        I’m not sure that my countryman, too often your flags change.
                        although I am convinced that you were born RK.

                        and for the rest.
                        Quote: Beck
                        There is not a single word here that the USA won the war. It is even said that the Germans were weakened at the time of the landing, and only the actions of the Red Army were weakened.

                        firstly you read the reference, there is not only ONE textbook mentioned.
                        read, read.
                        she is not long.
                        secondly, EVEN IN THE CUT TO MY CUT, they mow not childishly.
                        The Allies opened a western front against weakened Germans.

                        weakened by KEM?
                        Santa Claus?
                        deserteria?
                        impotence?

                        all subsequent comments THIS IS THE RESULT OF TRAINING IN CUSTOM TEXTBOOKS.

                        read the links in full.
                        originals are indicated there.
                      4. Beck
                        Beck 11 July 2013 11: 47 New
                        0
                        Okay, I read it. But not one political leader in the West has ever claimed that only they won. But in our country these are echoes of the Cold War, when communist propaganda invented all kinds of things in order to defame capitalism. And not only about the war. In Soviet times, I read extensive articles in newspapers where, on falsifications, it was stated and struck us that the average wage of a Soviet worker is higher than that of an American. Therefore, they say our worker can afford more, and the American lives, almost starving.

                        Quote: Rider
                        I’m not sure that my countryman, too often your flags change.


                        Well, not so sure not so sure. It’s a master's business and I insist on how to do nothing. But I do not have money and there is no absolute desire to wander around the Americas. And in technical terms, like all of these sites have some kind of guide, VO is Beeline, so it confuses it with its programs.

                        So I signed the message now, and the striped one got out again. Or do you think that from 20 o'clock yesterday I already left for the states?
                2. builder
                  builder 10 July 2013 19: 29 New
                  +4
                  If you want to make a DOCUMENTARY film about 28 Panfilov’s people, this can be called a lie. (Like Georgian documentaries about 08.08.08)
                  You know, I answered in some blog - history is only a relation to it. There are “undeniable” facts for any point of view. And the truth is also a matter of personal choice. Looking at the same thing, people see completely different things. Sometimes just diametrical. Andrei Tolubeyev once said (I don’t know this thought or he quoted someone): “Nobody needs the whole truth, only the part that makes a person stronger, cleaner and closer to God is needed.” You know, I totally agree with that.

                  Before starting the script, I did a much deeper investigation than those who limited themselves to an article on Wikipedia. I wondered why it was necessary to invent a feat when there were a myriad of examples of mass heroism along the entire front line. I did not find the answer. But the reasons that made the feat debunk were found very quickly. So I adhere to the point of view that falsification is not a feat, but just materials proving that it was not there.

                  / Andrei Challope (One of the authors of the script)
                3. Pimply
                  Pimply 10 July 2013 20: 05 New
                  +1
                  Unless at the same time they are trying to imagine this as reality. Namely, this is what the author of the script does.
                4. builder
                  builder 10 July 2013 20: 19 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Unless at the same time they are trying to imagine this as reality. Namely, this is what the author of the script does.
                  Dear Eugene, where did you get this from?
                5. Pimply
                  Pimply 10 July 2013 20: 24 New
                  -2
                  Read what they write. And in what form.
                6. builder
                  builder 10 July 2013 20: 56 New
                  0
                  http://vk.com/away.php?to=http%3A%2F%2F28panfilovcev.com%2F
  • Firstvanguard
    Firstvanguard 11 July 2013 07: 41 New
    0
    these would be truth-cutters, but an ice pick on the head.

    + 100500 angry
  • Begemot
    Begemot 10 July 2013 12: 34 New
    +3
    Lopatov,
    so you can agree that it’s not worth fighting, it would be better to live under the Germans!
    Any hero and his feat are idealized and mystified to a certain extent, because life, and especially war, is much more complicated, uglier and darker than the stories about her, and everyone understands this very well, but from this respect and respect for people who have accomplished the feat does not become less and spraying with saliva that “this platoon was not in this trench, but in another, and the German tank was first hit by artillerymen, and then infantrymen threw grenades at it, and not vice versa, which means all this is untrue” - bullshit. There is no thorough (I stress, thorough) description of military operations! But the fact that the heroically dead soldiers did not miss the enemy in the fall of 41 to Moscow is undeniable. Maybe the grave of an unknown soldier would also be removed, otherwise he was just such a quartermaster and died not heroically! It’s possible to cheer up the heroes in another way: "but what they did, they just shot, they also shoot at training grounds and exercises, nothing heroic." Calm down!
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 10 July 2013 13: 10 New
      -8
      No need to invent my thoughts for me. You would rather read carefully.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • pa_nik
    pa_nik 10 July 2013 10: 02 New
    +3
    Peresvet - Bagration - Klochkov - Rodionov .. Traditions in Russia are - to WIN.
  • pa_nik
    pa_nik 10 July 2013 10: 04 New
    0
    By the way, I met here somehow, I don’t remember where: "God - ratify - he." What .. recourse
  • Letnab
    Letnab 10 July 2013 10: 05 New
    +1
    Great article! Need a movie about this feat! Since childhood, I love to watch the film "Aty-Baty", probably remember .. A strong film!
  • Hort
    Hort 10 July 2013 10: 24 New
    +4
    But I still hope that the Volokolamsk Highway is also being screened for a new one. Excellent work about the same Panfilov division
  • Fuzeler
    Fuzeler 10 July 2013 10: 57 New
    0
    Very good and objective article. The author is smart.
  • Nayhas
    Nayhas 10 July 2013 11: 14 New
    -1
    The fact is that the military commander Koroteev heard from the commissar of the 8th Panfilov division Egorov about the battles at the Dubosekovo junction, the commissar himself did not participate in these battles, but heard from another commissar who also did not fight there, but heard about it. Instead of looking for witnesses of that battle, Shorter took the political report in which the fourth company became the fifth and together with the editor of the Red Star they blinded an article about the feat (the number of heroes was taken from the ceiling by logical calculations). And when there was interest in the exploit of 28 Panfilov’s commander Krivitsky decided to develop the topic, when it turned out that the information was not completely correct, the regiment commander Karpov said that the entire regiment participated in the battles, and not 28 people, Krivitsky took the names of 28 people that captain Gundilovich remembered and Further using his imagination he thought up all the details. And if one of the heroes of Panfilov’s Dobrobabin had not been sentenced for treason, no one would have known that everything described by Krivitsky was a fiction.
    The actions of the Red Star correspondents resemble the hero J. Hasek of the freely determined Marek, who, having become the historiographer of the battalion before the outbreak of hostilities, had already painted the exploits of all the people around him.
    It’s a lie all the time ...
    1. Grishka100watt
      Grishka100watt 10 July 2013 11: 36 New
      -4
      Oh, the agent was drawn.
      1. Gahprom
        Gahprom 10 July 2013 11: 40 New
        -2
        Agent posts messages on Topvar?

        http://topwar.ru/1225-28-panfilovcev-vechnaya-slava-pavshim-vyzhivshim-lagerya.h
        tml

        did the same actually happen at the Dubosekovo junction? And what was the feat of the Panfilovites? The opinion of historians is as follows: indeed, the soldiers of the Panfilov’s division showed heroism by delaying the advance of tanks for four hours and allowing the command to pull up troops for a decisive battle. However, the entire battalion deserved fame, and not only the famous 4th company of the 1075th regiment of the 316th rifle division. And the main feat of the fighters is that, having overcome the fear of tanks, with minimal technical support (according to some reports, the entire company had only two anti-tank rifles!) They managed to stop the tank convoy.
        Dobrobabin was released ahead of schedule after 7 years, and was deprived of all awards. His name was not called anywhere (he was considered dead), and in I960, he was officially banned from mentioning Dobrobabin. For many years, the Moscow military historian G. Kumanev was busy with the rehabilitation of the hero. And he got his way: in 1993, the Supreme Court of Ukraine rehabilitated Dobrobabina. And after the death of Ivan Yevstafyevich (he died on December 19 1996), the title of Hero of the Soviet Union was returned to him the so-called “Permanent Presidium of the Congress of People's Deputies of the USSR” headed by Soot Umalatova.

        And the catch phrase of Kruchkov’s political instructor is entirely on the conscience of journalists. The Panfilov Division was formed mainly from Kazakhs, Kyrgyz and Uzbeks, the Russians in it were much less than half. Many hardly knew Russian (only the main teams). So, political politician Klochkov would hardly be able to make pathetic speeches in front of a company: first, a good half of the fighters would not understand anything, and second, the rumbling from the breaks was such that even the teams did not always hear.

        Well, now tell me the classic phrase, but what's the difference.
      2. grafrozow
        grafrozow 13 July 2013 19: 09 New
        -1
        And whose agent are you? Who hired you? True across the throat? Gorepatriot, Accustomed to sculpting beautiful slogans on latki, just a lot of patches, I'm afraid there will not be enough kumach. And you will lie further with a good purpose? Only you won’t go to the front, those in the rear you need to inspire and agitate. Next, the eagles, and I follow you, well, purely political. If you served in the army, you know how the language was removed about them — the workplace was tidied up.
  • kazssr
    kazssr 10 July 2013 11: 16 New
    +6
    one would like to say in the words of the hero Martynov, the elder Fedot Vaskov-: “There were 28 of them, 28 young guys, and they did not pass, they did not pass”
    GLORY TO HEROES AND ETERNAL MEMORY soldier
  • avia12005
    avia12005 10 July 2013 11: 19 New
    +1
    Down with the "Penal Battalion" and "Last Armored Train"! Give the truth about the heroes !!!
    1. Gahprom
      Gahprom 10 July 2013 11: 35 New
      -3
      Are you talking about the fact that GSS type Dobrobabin was a policeman, and about the fact that Krivitsky invented everything, because he was afraid to go to the front?
      agree
      read, it was already on Topvar
      http://topwar.ru/1225-28-panfilovcev-vechnaya-slava-pavshim-vyzhivshim-lagerya.h
      tml
  • Kars
    Kars 10 July 2013 11: 28 New
    +7
    Alexey Valeryevich Isaev
    Antisuvorov. The big lies of the little man. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2004. - 352 sec. - ISBN 5-699-05998-9 [1]
    Antisuvorov. Ten myths of the Second World War. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2004. - 416 sec. - ISBN 5-699-07634-4 [2]


    Ulanov Andrey Andreevich; Shein, Dmitry Vladimirovich.
    Order in the tank troops.


    I recommend that you read excellent books for familiarization with the Resunoids at times. There is also the author Pomagaybo who is also very interesting. The order in the tank troops is a must-read book for those who want to discuss the Soviet tanks especially about the start of the war.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 10 July 2013 11: 46 New
      +1
      Kars "I recommend excellent books to familiarize you with resunoids at a time."
      I agree. He at least has links to archival sources, unlike them. Rezun directly declares - I refer to memoirs. But, memoirs such a thing here I remember, I don’t remember there.
  • Gahprom
    Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 00 New
    -5
    Quote: Pimply
    afraid of ouses - do not go to Topwar 8)

    oh, screech minus me already))
    how many do we have there? -5 thousand? I still have time to say))
  • Grishka100watt
    Grishka100watt 10 July 2013 12: 29 New
    +9
    Friends!
    What do the gentlemen Pupyrchaty, Lopatov, Gakhprom and others who write, say that there were 28 Panfilovites, did not say anything to Klochkov, say that 28 of them are to betray the past, etc.?
    They cannot deny the feat; it will not work. But they are trying to dissolve the feat in troubled waters.
    So that a person who remembered to himself, or in a conversation about this feat, remembered their words and doubted what he said or thought.
    If now the words "28 Panfilov" mostly cause pride and rolls a lump to the throat, then they are trying to break this chain and bring doubt, under the cover of good intentions.

    Option 1. "Mention of 28 Panfilovites" -> "delight and pride for our ancestors."

    Option 2. "Mention of 28 Panfilovites" -> "I remember somewhere I heard that they were not 28," Behind Moscow "was not Klochkov, but some political instructor said, in general, not clear circumstances" -> "I won’t probably understand more about this topic, and say something that I don’t know for sure. "

    This is their goal: to stir up, dissolve, bring doubt, focus on the little things, hiding behind the search for truth.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 10 July 2013 12: 43 New
      -12
      Yes. I feel it’s time to organize the Evil League of Evil, and, Lopatov? Let’s enter it, we will understand, destroy young immature minds.
      And here such Light Forces will fight with us, who do not care about real people, who are prettier than slogans and lubok, who do not understand how terrible the real war is, who did not see it, did not sniff, and do not understand. They believe that the main thing is gloss and St. George ribbon, and real people - that they are real people. They are the Forces of Light, you see.
      1. Iraclius
        Iraclius 10 July 2013 12: 59 New
        +1
        28 panzfilovtsev. Ready-made heroics not related to reality. The invention of the journalist. And real heroes are replaced with lubok. It is one thing if it were immediately said that they were filming a myth. Or somehow it was indicated. But no. Here, you see, patriotism and historical truth. We supposedly had 28 Panfilov’s - and Nybet.

        And you will miss the history of the entire Great Patriotic War. Debunk, tear the covers, remove more chernukha ... What, with whom and how often ... the truth is everyone has their own. Do you want to see a feature or documentary movie? You can make a feature film about 28 Heroes, and then show a documentary, which discusses all versions of what happened. All versions. And let the thinking viewer make a conclusion himself. I wouldn’t watch a documentary, because to me my truth seems to be correct. Your truth is not, because it does not bring anything good and holy. It’s not hot from her, not cold. From her disgusting and disgusting. True, you know, it should be good, and not vulgarize, bring down ... Then this is not true, but a lie. Sorry for the harshness.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 08 New
          -4
          Respected. They spit on those who have replaced real people with the popular image.

          From the testimony of the former commander of the 1075th Infantry Regiment I.V. Kaprov (1947):
          ... There was no battle of 28 Panfilov’s with German tanks at the Dubosekovo junction on November 16, 1941 - this is a complete fiction. On this day, at the Dubosekovo junction as part of the 2nd battalion, the 4th company fought with German tanks, and really fought heroically. Over 100 people died from the company, and not 28, as was reported in the newspapers. None of the correspondents contacted me during this period; I never told anyone about the battle of 28 Panfilov’s, and I couldn’t speak, since there was no such battle. I did not write any political reports about this.

          100-odd people, 100-odd living, real people who gave their lives, who fought fiercely, who bite into the ground, were replaced with a splint of 28 heroes. Lubok is more beautiful than the truth - he does not smell of pain, he smells of heroism.

          You, replacing reality with poppy, betray their memory, spit on the history of the Second World War.
          Feature film is great. But do not everywhere declare the event as a real feat.
          1. smersh70
            smersh70 10 July 2013 13: 17 New
            +1
            Quote: Pimply
            You, substituting reality for popular soup,


            the first time I disagree with you))) .. of 28 died 24 ..... 4 was captured ..... after the war seems to have survived 2nd ...... in the mid-90s this question raised .. conducted an investigation ..... why again raise this problem ........ that there are no other problems in history or something .... better more info about 41 years ... about the battles in Dubno. ..about the southwestern front .... hi
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 31 New
              +1
              So it seems or survived? Who was captured? Do you have any links? Data?

              Here's the real fight:

              The commander of the 1075th regiment I. Kaprov (testimony given during the investigation in the Panfilov’s case):
              ... By November 16, 1941, there were 120-140 people in the company. My command post was outside Dubosekovo, 1,5 km from the position of the 4th company (2nd battalion). I don’t remember now whether there were anti-tank rifles in the 4th company, but I repeat that in the entire 2nd battalion there were only 4 anti-tank rifles ... In total, there were 2-10 enemy tanks on the 12nd battalion site. How many tanks went (directly) to the sector of the 4th company, I do not know, or rather, I can’t determine ...
              By means of the regiment and the efforts of the 2nd battalion, this tank attack was repelled. In battle, the regiment destroyed 5-6 German tanks, and the Germans retreated. At 14-15 hours the Germans opened strong artillery fire ... and again went on the attack with tanks ... More than 50 tanks attacked in sections of the regiment, and the main blow was aimed at the positions of the 2nd battalion, including the section of the 4th company, and one the tank even went to the command post of the regiment and lit the hay and the booth, so I accidentally managed to get out of the dugout: the railway embankment saved me, people who had survived the attack of German tanks began to gather around me. The 4th company suffered most of all: 20–25 people survived, led by the company commander Gundilovich. The remaining companies suffered less.
              1. smersh70
                smersh70 10 July 2013 13: 46 New
                +3
                Quote: Pimply
                Who was captured?


                It was further established that in addition to Dobrobabin, Vasilyev Illarion Romanovich, Shemyakin Grigory Melentievich, Shadrin Ivan Demidovich and Kuzhebergenov Daniil Aleksandrovich, who are also listed on the 28 Panfilov’s who died in battle with German tanks, were still alive. Therefore, the need arose to investigate the very circumstances of the battle of the 28 guards from the Panfilov division that took place on November 16 of November 1941 at the Dubosekovo junction.
                The Gold Star of the Hero of the Soviet Union is awarded to one of five panfilovites, whom propaganda recorded in the list of the dead.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 53 New
                  -3
                  Yeah. Accordingly, it turned out that there was a feat, but not 28 Panfilov’s, but a slightly different one.
                  1. Demon45
                    Demon45 10 July 2013 20: 49 New
                    +1
                    All the same, you agree that there was a feat, and 28 Panfilov’s are a symbol of the feat of the entire division and the entire Soviet people.
      2. grafrozow
        grafrozow 13 July 2013 18: 14 New
        -1
        Eugene, who are you arguing with? Carlson, as he himself writes, the Chekist’s grandson, the Chekist’s son, shoot, shoot everyone. The son of a bitch didn’t shoot. He does not understand that no one denies the feat of the Soviet People, but you can’t be a little pregnant as there can be no half-truths, and whoever understands this is Carlson’s worst enemies. She must show in the film the role of the VKPb party and the selfless love of the people for the “best friend of Soviet athletes”. Both of my grandfathers fought, one near Stalingrad returned with an invalid, the second died near St. Mga, where the grave is not known and understood by these "patriots", that singing one hero and being silent about 10 others is a crime against their relatives. Like then, "No one is forgotten, nothing is forgotten ",? They don’t have everything smoothly and fluffy, in one blow of seven. Not when the lie brought good, sorry for the wretched. I have the impression that Carlson still speaks at the party meeting, only the audience is no longer the same. Like in a joke, when the whole ragged, overgrown man came out of the forest to the farm and asked Do the German grandmothers haven’t? Serve as a soldier, the 5-year war ended, and I derail the Echelons. Hooray patriots.
    2. Gahprom
      Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 45 New
      -4
      Well, I say, the "real" topwar patriot is stupid
      They cannot deny the feat; it will not work. But they are trying to dissolve the feat in troubled waters.

      you were boldly allocated- REMOVE ABOUT ALL DIVISION, tell about Volokolamsk sappers with shtug (like you know what it is, huh), tell about Ilyinsky borders, is it all in your opinion muddy water?
      Option 1. "Mention of 28 Panfilovites" -> "delight and pride for our ancestors."

      any clown googles this case in 2 seconds and pokes it in your nose, and out of habit you will scream slogans, because there’s nothing to answer,
      ps, that's because of such stubborn ignoramus of the USSR and collapsed
  • Iraclius
    Iraclius 10 July 2013 12: 39 New
    +2
    Guys, why are you? What are you writing? You read about what half of the posts! There was no feat? Panfilov’s are not heroes? What are you doing? This is holy! This should not be touched at all. No way. Today you will debunk the Panfilovites, tomorrow you’ll start to spit on the icons and give your children into slavery to Western gays! fool It will be the end!
    1. Gahprom
      Gahprom 10 July 2013 12: 59 New
      -2
      Guys, what are you doing? What are you writing? You read about what half of the posts! There was no feat? Panfilov’s are not heroes?

      you read something else visually
      there was a feat, Panfilov’s were, but not mythical 28, but the whole division

      What are you doing? This is holy! This should not be touched at all. No way. Today you will debunk Panfilov’s, tomorrow you’ll start to spit on the icons and give your children into slavery to Western gays! It will be the end!

      they touched, under Stalin, and Dobrobabin was assimilated for a term and the GSS was taken away
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 10 July 2013 12: 59 New
      0
      This particular feat was not. There was a fiction of a journalist.

      There was another feat. Much less beautifully looking, but from this much more terrible, cruel and bloody. The feat, which also stood to the end, in which many more people participated, but the feat that was forgotten, was deleted from memory thanks to the myth of 28 Panfilov’s.
      1. Iraclius
        Iraclius 10 July 2013 13: 21 New
        +7
        Guys, do not touch this. Do you know how many feats there were of which we don’t know anything at all? Why dig dirty laundry? Do you know how much crap has surfaced in connection with the debunking of the personality cult? And how many more will pop up? Are you sure that the Fas! Command was not given to the commission? What Krivitsky lied corny because they forced? A feat was anyway. Let them be wrong with the numbers, numbers and losses, but he was, guys! You read your posts again. Now our children are reading this and what will they learn? What is all a lie? Cinema should not be shot about companies, regiments, divisions, or operational formations. Cinema should be shot about people and for people. About the heroes. about the exploits. A movie that evokes human emotions in a person. Makes it better. What are you calling for?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 10 July 2013 14: 11 New
          +2
          Quote: Iraclius
          Why dig dirty laundry?

          Why to create patriotic films on the basis of dirty linen? To generally drain the memory of World War II into the toilet? So that the younger generation ceases to believe even in true stories about the heroism of the people? What do these unfortunate patriots achieve?
          1. grafrozow
            grafrozow 13 July 2013 18: 31 New
            -1
            Shovels, where are you from ... brains? If you call black and white, then we don’t have to explain why this VICTORY has come at such a DEAR PRICE, and draw conclusions so that it doesn’t happen again. Do you want to know the truth? Do not believe the game? So the traitor, they still have a class war.
      2. smersh70
        smersh70 10 July 2013 13: 52 New
        +2
        Quote: Pimply
        There was another feat.


        In her explanation, the chairman of the Nelidovsky s / council Smirnova said:

        “The battle of the Panfilov’s division near our village Nelidovo and the Dubosekovo junction was on November 16, 1941. During this battle, all our residents, including myself, were hiding in shelters ... The Germans entered the area of ​​our village and the junction Dubosekovo on November 16, 1941 and were repelled by units of the Soviet Army on December 20, 1941. At that time there were large snowdrifts that lasted until February 1942, due to which we did not collect the corpses of those killed on the battlefield and did not make a funeral.
        ... In early February 1942 on the battlefield, we found only three corpses, which were buried in a mass grave on the outskirts of our village. And then in March 1942, when it began to melt, the military units to the mass grave demolished three more corpses, including the corpse of political instructor Klochkov, who was identified by the soldiers. So in the mass grave of the Panfilov heroes, which is located on the outskirts of our village Nelidovo, 6 soldiers of the Soviet Army are buried. No more corpses were found on the territory of the Nelidovsky s / council. "
        Other residents of the village of Nelidovo told about the same thing, adding that on the second day after the battle they saw the surviving guardsmen Vasiliev and Dobrobabin.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 55 New
          +1
          There was a fight. The 4th company took part in the battle, which in heavy battles lost more than 100 people.
      3. dustycat
        dustycat 10 July 2013 19: 19 New
        +4
        Pimpled ..
        Well there was a fight, so what?
        There was a feat of the company. So what?
        There was a feat of the regiment. So what?
        There was a feat of the division. So what?
        There was a feat of the army. So what?
        There was a feat of the front. So what?
        There was a feat of the country. So what?

        For a specific fighter, in a specific battle, there is only his platoon.
        Here is the strip where his platoon stands.
        And the whole war is in the strip of this particular platoon.
        Because the more you are simply not able to make out even in a training battle.
        Platoon Band.
        And the whole war.
        And so that's just what can be popularly explained to the whole country and to every fighter.
        Because they no longer embrace the mind.
        Do not feel.
        Do not understand.
        Do not feel.
        And 28 will understand. And will get through. Will come. To most.
        Maybe not for everyone.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 20: 11 New
          -4
          Yeah. Just do not then try to present the case as if everything was in reality. And the main mistake of the authors of the future cinema is that they sculpt not a patriotic film, but a pseudo-patriotic splint. Inflection to the other side.
          1. Demon45
            Demon45 10 July 2013 20: 57 New
            +5
            Quote: Pimply
            Yeah. Just do not then try to present the case as if everything was in reality. And the main mistake of the authors of the future cinema is that they sculpt not a patriotic film, but a pseudo-patriotic splint. Inflection to the other side.

            So, according to your words, there was no battle. 28 Panfilov’s people are a symbol, and if you don’t understand this, I feel sorry for you. And if something is scratching about finding the “truth”, try to write about the American white and fluffy story. sure to read.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 10 July 2013 21: 31 New
              -1
              Quote: Demon45
              So, according to your words, there was no battle.

              There was no mythical battle of 28 Panfilov’s. There was a real battle of the 4th company, in which more than 100 people died. Not so handsome on paper.
      4. Firstvanguard
        Firstvanguard 11 July 2013 10: 13 New
        +2
        This particular feat was not. There was a fiction of a journalist.

        It’s good to juggle with words, the same feat, the odds on the tanks are the same, the battle is the same, the death in the end is the same! No need to replace concepts, a different number of heroes, replace with a bunch of verbal diarrhea about myths and fairy tales.
        It is outraged that the other participants of this feat are forgotten? Put a surname list of all participants. Then bring real benefits and honor the memory of the heroes.
        Stop trolling on the bones !!!
        There was another feat. Far less beautiful looking

        There are no beautiful feats in war, no more, no less. War is hellish labor, filth and death.
    3. Asan Ata
      Asan Ata 10 July 2013 23: 40 New
      +2
      Yes, it seems this is already happening. This is not a fact that may be in the details and does not correspond to what was happening, but. Let Chapaev be demolished! Let’s fight the Kulikovo battle there, let’s cancel the “Varyag”, and maybe Gagarin is not the first? There are deeds, there is heroism, there are legends. Get your dirty hands off our legends! Let them make a film, let our children take a sip of the heroism of their grandfathers, not Western.
      1. Firstvanguard
        Firstvanguard 11 July 2013 10: 18 New
        +1
        Compatriots!
        Stop feeding these trolls. They all the same, like parrots, will repeat the same thing.
        IMHO a movie about heroes is needed, whether it will justify my / your hopes, time will tell. There will be a film - we will learn we will discuss.
      2. grafrozow
        grafrozow 14 July 2013 01: 27 New
        -1
        I don’t remember that Chapaev fought with the Germans, and “Varyag” fought in the Russo-Japanese war under the motto of Vera, Tsar and Fatherland. And by the way, “a fact that may in detail and does not correspond to what was happening” is no longer a fact but fiction.
  • T80UM1
    T80UM1 10 July 2013 13: 00 New
    +8
    For me, as an Almaty citizen, there is a monument to 28 Panfilov’s and I don’t give a damn about the opinions of pseudo-historians and truth-seekers, but was this a fact ... The Germans sacredly believe in Hartman, velvet, rape of billions of people of German nationality, etc. And I believe in a feat 28 Panfilovites!
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 10 July 2013 13: 14 New
      -6
      That is, you are ready to replace real people with lubok. Bravo.
      1. T80UM1
        T80UM1 10 July 2013 13: 30 New
        +5
        Real people, please give specifically the name of the surname, who exactly and where did the feat in that battle, whom should we praise? Who to elevate to heroes? You yourself do not know because the Germans left the battlefield and no one knows, except for the participants who died.

        What you are striving to remove is the fact of the feat and replace it with a vague wording - it is not known who the hero is, but in general they all more or less fought somewhere near Moscow!
      2. Iraclius
        Iraclius 10 July 2013 13: 38 New
        +2
        Which lubok? Awarded Gold Stars of Lubok? What are you writing? How not ashamed to write something like that?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 10 July 2013 14: 32 New
          -3
          Exactly. And therefore, an investigation was launched by the Military Prosecutor's Office in 1947.
      3. Rakti-kali
        Rakti-kali 10 July 2013 20: 28 New
        +1
        Quote: Pimply
        That is, you are ready to replace real people with lubok. Bravo.

        And you show how principled you are and list by name ALL fighters of at least this company and circumstances and the course of the battle.
        If you already said “A”, they say there wasn’t what was described, say “B” - who really did what.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 20: 38 New
          +1
          And can you list by name all those who died in those battles? No. Do you know why? Precisely because you can easily find the myth, and cannot find data on the real victims without going into the archive.
          1. Rakti-kali
            Rakti-kali 11 July 2013 10: 52 New
            +2
            Quote: Pimply
            And can you list by name all those who died in those battles? No. Do you know why? Precisely because you can easily find the myth, and cannot find data on the real victims without going into the archive.

            Oh, how recognizable ... it’s probably still a national trait - if you don’t know something, blame the interlocutor for incompetence, let him have a “headache”. I wrote in Russian in white: - "If you already said" A ", they say there wasn’t what was described, say" B "- who really did what."
            Since you have already "entered" the archives, share your innermost knowledge with us - L / C lists, maps, reports, railroad tracks, testimonies of witnesses, etc., etc. Or by archives do you mean newspaper boulevards? And in fact, there is nothing to say besides “nothing”?
  • SS68SS
    SS68SS 10 July 2013 13: 11 New
    +3
    I get the impression that someone pays extra money to gentlemen like Gakhprom for verbiage, misinformation, blasphemy, and foolishness.
  • soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 10 July 2013 13: 15 New
    +2
    it was impossible to reach Berlin in 1945 without feats. who has doubts about this?
  • Hort
    Hort 10 July 2013 13: 21 New
    +1
    The British? Whom Rommel in the Desert with much less power slipper drove?
    a little offtopic, but I just remembered: there is such a bike that once in one of the field camps the British taxied Rommel drunk in the trash (mixed up something with the drunken ball) and landed in a tent. There he overslept a little and, still not quite sober, drove on. The British were in such an ah ... from surprise and arrogance (Rommel himself!), That they did nothing and did not touch him. :)

    These are the warriors
    1. Grishka100watt
      Grishka100watt 10 July 2013 13: 35 New
      +3
      Immediately I imagined Rommel falling face down on a bed, sprawling like a bear with a long drunken howl "Eeeeeeeee ...." and the frightened running glances of the British ...
      Mozh, really, by the way)
  • rus_ak_93
    rus_ak_93 10 July 2013 14: 15 New
    0
    Quote: Cyril7377
    I agree that during the USSR such a law was censored, it’s time to introduce it. Recently I read about the history of the film "Brest Fortress", so our "Russian" creators tried to stick an episode into the film with an attack by a Chechen-Ingush battalion armed with shovels and knives. Like, what brave Dzhigits were, they all died, but the Germans were also cut down by a whole regiment .... Thanks to the Belarusians, they were outraged specifically and forced to remove the hack and slander. I think that this film only won.
    Z.Y. Once the film is made by enthusiasts, at their own expense, then the film should turn out to be honest and truthful, without the massive feats of criminals and individuals. Uh, let's say so of a united nationality.

    Well, if someone remembers a small episode, it still entered the film.
  • sumcream56
    sumcream56 10 July 2013 14: 31 New
    +1
    Quote: hort
    The British? Whom Rommel in the Desert with much less power slipper drove?
    a little offtopic, but I just remembered: there is such a bike that once in one of the field camps the British taxied Rommel drunk in the trash (mixed up something with the drunken ball) and landed in a tent. There he overslept a little and, still not quite sober, drove on. The British were in such an ah ... from surprise and arrogance (Rommel himself!), That they did nothing and did not touch him. :)

    These are the warriors

    And you look at the national composition of His Majesty's troops: Hindus, South Africans, Kenyans, New Zealanders, Poles, etc. .. At the same time, remember at the same time the Battle of England and finally the Falklands. And those “fighting” British officers before 1940 drove more than any Dumshman in the deserts of Iraq and Pakistan. Where did they get the experience of modern warfare? The British in 1939 had only 800 tanks, of which only 200 with guns, and even then a 42 mm caliber without fragmentation shells.
    The author of the article is right. Modern Russian Nazis, or rather skinheads, greatly extol Hitler's civilization mission. These Cossacks are especially distinguished, whose real heroes are those who fought in the 15th Cossack SS corps. They send delagations to Lienz to the monuments "treacherously betrayed by the British and innocently tortured in the dungeons of SMERSH and the NKVD to fighters for the Cossack people." Therefore, you do not need to substitute.
  • RoTTor
    RoTTor 10 July 2013 14: 45 New
    +8
    [b] Everything is simpler and worse. A generation of true patriots who were only in the USSR - Panfilov’s, Gastello, Sailors, etc. - ad infinitum, and in Japan - real samurai officers, kamikaze, simply died out.
    The current population is fixated on headstock-cars-dachas-broads, etc., trying to quickly dump away, having gathered a lot more from here. For such, there is no homeland, no Russia, they have a "rashka". It is simply impossible to understand such a population of that generation of heroes who, without thinking of themselves, consciously died for their homeland.
    Because this wretched population of anthropoids is trying to measure heroes with its filthy arshin.
    What the enemies were able to do was to almost completely cleanse the "land of romantics, the land of heroes" and bring out such a livestock ... [/ b]
  • rus_ak_93
    rus_ak_93 10 July 2013 15: 16 New
    +5
    and as for the film, why break feathers (keys), it is necessary, and no matter how many people stood there, the main thing survived.
    remember the film "They Fought for their Homeland": there was no such episode during the Second World War, I think this is a collective image of soldiers who fought for their homeland, but still I can’t watch without tears, although I have seen it more than once. A "Hot snow", "And the dawns here are quiet."
    And enough g ... smear: lubok-not lubok.
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 10 July 2013 19: 03 New
      +2
      That's it.
      In all of these pictures, only ONE EXPLOSION is shown.
      Because for any soldier, the whole war is a platoon strip.
      You don’t perceive more during a battle - even a training one.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 10 July 2013 20: 14 New
        0
        Very well. So let them show one platoon of the 4th company. And I think there are enough heroic episodes there. Only real. Or then let them not try to imagine this as true. There are wonderful films about the war, there are wonderful books about it. Who do not try to deceive the viewer and do not try to pretend to be true.
    2. Firstvanguard
      Firstvanguard 11 July 2013 11: 56 New
      -1
      and as for the film, why break feathers (keys), it is necessary, and no matter how many people stood there, the main thing survived.
      remember the film "They Fought for their Homeland": there was no such episode during the Second World War, I think this is a collective image of soldiers who fought for their homeland, but still I can’t watch without tears, although I have seen it more than once. A "Hot snow", "And the dawns here are quiet."
      And enough g ... smear: lubok-not lubok.

      I subscribe to every word.
  • Landwarrior
    Landwarrior 10 July 2013 16: 15 New
    +1
    Well, I don’t understand something ... When they shot Frost “they hopped there in May” - silence, the kipzhge only rose when they were finished. The same thing with "US-2" - while shooting silence, kipizh then rose. And here, well, it seems that the idea of ​​a rather patriotic story is taken as an idea, and on you, immediately at the start, such injections of G onto the fan. What, burnt in milk on water, began to blow?
    Historians, damn it ... Where these historians used to be.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 10 July 2013 17: 51 New
      -3
      Because the authors decided to make noise about the film before it was released
      1. Rider
        Rider 10 July 2013 18: 06 New
        +4
        Quote: Pimply
        Because the authors decided to make noise about the film before it was released


        oh I'm wildly sorry.

        DOES ANYONE GO ANOTHER?

        and just think logically.

        THE PROJECT IS STATED AS INDEPENDENT, that is, it will be withdrawn by donations, without attracting large capital.

        HOW DO YOU MORE MONEY TO COLLECT IF BE SILENT ABOUT THE FILM?
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 10 July 2013 18: 32 New
          -1
          They announce that they do not care about history. And that history will be faked. Everything is cool. Bravo.
          1. Rider
            Rider 10 July 2013 19: 01 New
            +3
            they announce that they are making a film about the war, a patriotic orientation.

            and I think it’s really hurt.

            since recently NORMAL war films. count on the fingers.

            but give all the authenticity to you.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 10 July 2013 20: 16 New
              -2
              Nope. They clearly say that they will falsify history.

              Instead of bloody gebni there will be a pseudo-patriotic splint. And again there will be a bad movie.

              Do you know what was the plus of films about the war of the same 60s? They did not try to pretend to be something else.
              1. Landwarrior
                Landwarrior 10 July 2013 23: 22 New
                +1
                I don’t understand you ... So, the United States can make such films, the United Kingdom can, but Russia can’t? Like what, didn’t come out with a snout?
                want historicity, see documentary and newsreels.
              2. Firstvanguard
                Firstvanguard 11 July 2013 12: 19 New
                +1
                Instead of bloody gebni there will be a pseudo-patriotic splint. And again there will be a bad movie

                Finally!!!
                It became clear that you are so enraged in the film that has not yet been released!
                Would you roll with your myths about bloody gebnya!
                My grandfather went through the whole war and for two more than two years he shot Bendera scum. He personally, bloody gebeniya saved twice. From the environment from the Fritz and from the geeks of UPAshny. Bloody gebnya i.e. the NKVD troops who took the strike from the first minutes of the war, held the strike in the most terrible and seemingly hopeless areas, SMERSH wetting spies and traitors - at one mention, apparently cause you a fit of genetic horror. This explains the hysteria about the film and the enthusiasm of Khrushchev's lies.
                Go to the specialized forums S_Sh_P and write there in puppy enthusiasm for the "rank and file".
                1. grafrozow
                  grafrozow 14 July 2013 01: 45 New
                  -2
                  Understandably, the NKVD troops defeated the Nazis. I did not know, thanks for the enlightenment. It was hard for them in the detachments.
                  1. Landwarrior
                    Landwarrior 14 July 2013 06: 44 New
                    0
                    You are our truth-maker! You generally order "Not a step back!" read, no? So, there it is written in Russian that the detachments are formed "from parts that are crowded on vacation", i.e. such an ordinary "terry". The NKVD is already barrage commandant’s office, from which to the front line as to Beijing cancer.
                    1. grafrozow
                      grafrozow 14 July 2013 23: 47 New
                      0
                      Read carefully yourself, namely, in whose submission they were.
                      1. Landwarrior
                        Landwarrior 15 July 2013 20: 41 New
                        0
                        out of about 200 units, only about 40 are subordinate to the Special Departments. And it’s not a fact that they consisted of drug commissars. The People’s Commissariat and their worries had enough of their own soldiers, too, they needed the "makhra" like a seagull, an exhaust parachute. In the structure of the People's Commissariat were the Operational Forces (an analogue of the modern "Vovans") and the Border Guards (those that remained), this is not counting the police, escorts and others, so there were enough people, if that. Protecting the rear is also not an easy task.
  • Max_Bauder
    Max_Bauder 10 July 2013 16: 35 New
    13
    Good afternoon guys!

    It seems to me (I don’t like to think badly about people) or do Russians (not Russians, for Russians support their own) do not want to recognize the heroism of their brotherly neighbor, trying to disguise their dislike on the pretext of debunking myths or wanting to discover the truth?

    After all, how else to interpret this? I will also accept such an argument as “the desire to discover the truth even to the detriment of oneself” if the Russians did this constantly when they were stirring up their own history, but there isn’t such a thing there as it is conveniently interpreted.

    For example, there are now eccentrics who write that there was no Mongol yoke or present the Battle of Kulikovo as if the Russian squads were fighting the whole Golden Horde (and not a separate company of the escaped disgraced prince) and children in school do not need to know that after the battle on the sandpiper, Tokhtamysh the Khan of Horde twice burned Moscow, and the Russians paid a tribute for another hundred years, until finally Timur from Samarkand destroyed Tokhtamysh.

    The subjective description of the story is already noticeable by the way the author describes the actions of the enemy and "their own." If "his", then he writes heroically retreated, if the enemy applies the verb "cowardly fled."

    Conclusion, although the truth is, open it, but the question is: what do you want to achieve with this? to amuse your conceit that you are so smart? offend memory? or what?

    For example, I believe in legends (if they do not teach anything bad), Achilles and Hector, I believe that the Roman commander was noble as a maxim from the movie "Gladiator", I believe that William Wallace was as brave as Mel Gibson from the movie "Brave Heart", it doesn’t matter whether they cheated on their wives, whether they beat children, paid taxes, how they got into their pants quietly when it was scary, we don’t need to know this,

    Heroes must be such that they are believed and admired by them, so that they encourage others to perform the same feat, the rest is not important. Dirt can be found everywhere.

    And about making a film about 28 or the entire division, is it so important? two soldiers served there, aty-bats were soldiers, who asked if these people were really? what were their names? did they act like a movie? who saw this? By God, guys, with such speculations you sometimes get insanity (bureaucratic principality bordering on frank tupism hereditary factor of the era of the Union)

    when in the USA they make all kinds of fantastic films about their “valiant” soldiers, in Russia they tug each other's legs so that he doesn’t get up and envy at least one good movie about heroes, and so that he doesn’t hurt anyone, especially homosexuals, them (USA) in films (more recently about 5 years ago for sure) if a group of soldiers, then there should be - a white, a black man, a girl and ... a homosexual.

    And look at Russian films about the war, if the soldier is necessarily a girl, as if every soldier was in love in the war (Romeo horseradish), but I believe that they had no sex until they entered Berlin, and not everyone had it. So stop asking for the heresy about the "truth."
  • Max_Bauder
    Max_Bauder 10 July 2013 16: 57 New
    +6
    I come from Almaty and I am proud of compatriots, Panfilov heroes, especially the hero of the Great Patriotic War, Baurzhan Momyshuly, who took his troops out of the encirclement twice as a commander, read his book “Psychology of War” and I advise you (they told him they read his book in some military universities Union), here it is precisely the truth that cuts the uterus.

    For example, he writes (not a quote, but a memory from a book)

    "during the whole war I have not met anyone, not a single living being who was not afraid of death, to be afraid of everything, it’s scary before every attack, but the fact is that fear helps to live, it makes your body and mind united, during fear everything the body, the whole organism gathers, concentrates, goes into a different phase, the heartbeat becomes quicker, ears, nose, all organs work to the limit, a person no longer partially feels pain, nothing, his whole life is occupied by survival. But ... this is the threshold of choice, than Are the hero and the coward similar and different? Both are afraid, but the hero conquers fear and goes forward, and the coward surrenders to the will of fear and flees. "

    Here is his proverb "if you are not afraid of the enemy, you will not retreat in front of him, then you will pass the fire and water, consider defeated, and if you hide, he will find, bent down - put down (sword), bent down - chopped off, consider dead."

    So, if such heroes call for themselves, I’ll definitely go, otherwise I’ll shoot = D (and shot in the book he writes)
    1. Ded_smerch
      Ded_smerch 11 July 2013 12: 50 New
      +1
      But what about Begeldinov's super grandfather?!?!? Also a soldier with a capital letter (by the way he is still alive and even remains faithful to the union)
      1. Max_Bauder
        Max_Bauder 15 July 2013 15: 06 New
        0
        Yes, I do not detract from his merits, but the battle for the pilot is not the same as the battle for the motorized infantry, all the hardships of the war are borne by the infantry, from the time of Rome Ancient.
  • Syrzhn
    Syrzhn 10 July 2013 17: 04 New
    0
    Quote: sevtrash
    For filmmakers, journalists, the main thing is that their creation is watched or revered by more people

    Not for all.
  • Black
    Black 10 July 2013 17: 05 New
    +4
    Good day to all.
    In my humble opinion, don’t feed us with bread in the past, and as you know, it is unpredictable in Russia, for the reason that everyone delves into it in advance setting goals and catches corresponding to these goals. Some see only black in the past and paint without sparing tar, others whiten the story so that it becomes like a veil of an immaculate bride.
    A non-consolidated society is distorting history, and the damage is enormous. And above all, young people suffer.
    Tell me, who in France would dare to constantly exaggerate the topic of betrayal during World War II collaboration, an inglorious war with Germany? De-Gaulle drew a line under this back in 2 and that’s it !!!
    We shy from corner to corner .... this is disgusting.
  • Bakunin
    Bakunin 10 July 2013 17: 25 New
    +2
    Eternal memory to the Heroes of the Great Patriotic War .. And not only ... All wars in which our valiant Warriors defended our Fatherland
  • dustycat
    dustycat 10 July 2013 18: 59 New
    +7
    Lord of the truth.
    One question.
    And which of you participated in tactical exercises?

    The present story consists of small, minor fragments such as the exploit of one platoon.
    Because it was still not clear to me at school - did one platoon hold the entire front?
    And in tactical training on NVP at the exit to the field and at the game Zarnitsa you understand a simple thing.
    For each individual soldier, the entire great war (world or local) - all - to throw a grenade from him.
    And more than 28 fighters - their platoon - in this space you simply do not see and will not see and do not feel. In front of you you see from one hundred meters to ten kilometers, behind you - you feel boundlessness, and left-right - to throw a grenade.
    And that's all.
    All Russia. What is behind.
    All Germany. What rushing at you.
    Here is the platoon bar. What can you throw around the edges of your eyes.
    And ALL the war enters into this platoon band.

    This is what all truth-seekers misunderstood.
    It's so easy.

    Let them take it off. We always have time to give in the face.
    1. Odin_ne_voin
      Odin_ne_voin 10 July 2013 19: 37 New
      0
      And not even a platoon, but a squad, or even a group of 2-3 soldiers. and of course not the platoon held offensive. But the feat of Panfilov’s, as you don’t turn now, remains a feat, a great feat. Regardless of agitation and propaganda. Facts are stubborn things. But in my opinion, it is necessary to discuss and condemn films on other forms.
  • SPHINX
    SPHINX 10 July 2013 19: 39 New
    0
    Actually, the author of the article talks about this film, if I'm not mistaken the video normally fails to insert, catch the links):

    Good luck to the guys and success in their business.

    Well, if you add on the topic, then "truth-loving" should take into account the fact that, even this and other feats were invented, these stories inspired people to fight the enemy, gave hope of victory, encouraged others to become the same heroes.
    The feat of 28 Panfilov’s is a myth, you say ?! And to hell with him! how many real heroes appeared thanks to these stories? A hundred? Two? Or more?
  • sokrat-71
    sokrat-71 10 July 2013 19: 46 New
    +4
    A feature film about war does not have to be a historical encyclopedia. First of all, he must convey the general spirit of that war, the heroism of our soldiers. And for lovers of historical truth - the road to archives and scientific publications. All the same, the movie will not be able to reliably accurately describe past historical events. The main thing is to get a good movie.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 10 July 2013 20: 18 New
      -4
      Correctly. Should not. But then he should clearly indicate this, and not try to pretend to be something else. And the authors of a potential film do just that.
      1. SPHINX
        SPHINX 10 July 2013 20: 28 New
        +3
        Pimpled, listen (those), there are situations when not absolute and historical correspondence / certainty or any other garbage is important, but the idea that this or that story carries is important. And here at the head of everything is precisely the idea that you can’t escape, even if the enemy is stronger, you have to fight, you have to hold on to your own. Something like this. I repeat again, was it real or not, the main thing is that this story inspired other people, motivated them, and so on.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • builder
    builder 10 July 2013 21: 11 New
    +1

    The film "28 Panfilov" (Teaser)
    1. SPHINX
      SPHINX 10 July 2013 21: 18 New
      0
      Thank you for uploading the video, I could not insert it.
  • Inok_10
    Inok_10 10 July 2013 21: 32 New
    +1
    ... The feat of self-sacrifice of the Soviet people in the Great Patriotic War cannot be the subject of decomposition into particulars, do you not understand how people push these "Pimply Toads" appearing in comments either under the flag of the Promised Land, then under the Russian .. their attempt to smash the general history and the final result are particularly small .. and try to form a picture of these particulars in a proper favorable order .. bring them down with minuses .. :) :)
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 10 July 2013 21: 54 New
      -6
      Well, what are you - in the third person. You break the story, preferring the popular soup to real people who have fallen.
  • Shadowcat
    Shadowcat 10 July 2013 21: 35 New
    +3
    Guys, exhale, we have a free country. So if someone likes and he wants to watch, then let him watch, if someone does not like, he can review Chuck Norris or Rimbaud. How do you say wai notes? Or the "historically faithful" Rain