Military Review

Khans and Sarai Diocese

90
In the relations between the Golden Horde and the Russian principalities in the XII – XIV centuries, the religious factor played an important role. This is a rather obscure topic for the general public and is waiting for more conscientious researchers. Judging by the available chronicle sources, the testimony of Catholic monks and Arab travelers of the time, the Chingisids who came to Russia were notable for their tolerance.


Thus, the Franciscan monk Guillaume de Rubruk, a member of the French embassy to the great Khan Munke (1253) wrote to King Louis the Holy: "Let your majesty know about the city of Karakorum ... There are 12 temples of various nations, 2 mosques in which proclaim the law of Muhammad, and the Christian church on the edge of the city. "

The Orthodox Church of Batu and the subsequent rulers of the Juchi Ulus (Golden Horde) treated very favorably. In 1261, the Metropolitan Kirill of Kiev, at the request of the Grand Duke of Vladimir Alexander Nevsky and with the permission of Khan Berke, in Sarai-Batu, the Sarai diocese was established in the capital of the Golden Horde. The first bishop of Sarai was St. Mitrofan, who also managed the Pereyaslav Diocese.

One of the most profound researchers of the Sarai diocese is the historian and Orthodox publicist Vladimir Makhnach, whose works shed light on this page. stories Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church. His vision of those events is as follows.

ORTHODOX The diocese in the capital of the Horde, Sarai, three centuries later transferred to Krutitsy (now the Tagansky district of Moscow. - Ed.), was established in 1261 year. Many authors point out the most numerous reasons for founding a new department. Firstly, the number of Russians in the Horde in the 1250s increased. It was already about the frequent visits to the Khan's residence by the Russian princes with their entourage, merchants, and various embassies. The princes kept their yards with servants in Saray. Many of these Russians, willy-nilly or not, spent years in the Horde.

Secondly, by this time the Horde power had already fully established relations with the clergy, who were in a privileged position compared to the rest of the Russian population, and probably did not oppose the desire of the Russian clergy to strengthen their influence in the vast new territory.

Thirdly, in the Horde lands, especially along the Don, there lived rodents - Christianized descendants of the Khazars and the ancestors of the Don Cossacks.

Fourthly, the khan's power attached special importance to the bishop of Sarai in the relations of the Horde with Byzantium. It was hardly a coincidence that the foundation of the pulpit in the very year of 1261, when Mikhail Paleologue threw the crusaders out of Constantinople, restoring the Orthodox capital. A chronicle certificate is known about the return of Theognostos, the second bishop of Sarai, in 1279, “from Greek, sent by a beater of the metropolitan to the patriarch and Tsar Mengutemer to the king of the Greek Palaeologus”.

The Russian princes and the higher clergy, apparently, received information from the Sarai bishop about the situation in the headquarters, about the Khan’s attitude to this or that of the Russian princes. To some extent, the bishop could influence this relationship.

With all the knowledge of the question, a strange situation is striking when historians are primarily interested in what the Saray department of the Horde was useful for, not the Russians, not the Byzantine Empire, not the Universal Orthodox Church. In the end, it was not the Horde who established a diocese!

WAS MORE ONE the most serious reason for the desire of the Russian clergy to increase influence in the Horde: the struggle against Roman Catholicism, which from the thirteenth century constantly increased the pressure on the East. With the establishment of the Horde government in Russia in Rome, it was considered that it was now possible to spread papism among the Russians with the help of the Horde, and among the Horde themselves, perhaps with the help of ours. The goal was also pursued to attract the steppe inhabitants to the struggle against the Seljuk Turks, the Nicene (Byzantine) Empire, and the German Emperor Frederick II Hohenstaufen.

This pressure was carried out with the help of missionaries, most often Franciscans and Dominicans, whom the pope, having supplied with messages, were sent to Russia and to the Horde in the XIII and XIV centuries. Such of them, as John Plano Karpini, Guillaume Rubruck, Julian, we owe the most interesting testimonies about the countries where they visited, but they were not sent at all with educational purposes.

Their reports were sometimes even false in describing their own missionary successes. Thus, the Hungarian Dominican monk Julian in 1235 reported the words that the prince of great Laudameria (Vladimir-Suzdal principality said - Ed.) Said: "... After all, the time is close when we all must accept the faith of the Roman church and submit to its authority" .

It is interesting to note that even in the 1233 bulle of the year, Pope Gregory IX gave indulgence to all Dominicans who went to Russia, forgiving them such sins as the arson and murder of a cleric; they were also given the right to let go of these sins themselves. In a number of messages starting from the 13th century, the popes called on the Russian princes to renounce "their own delusions," that is, Orthodoxy.

GEOPOLITICAL The situation in the XIII century was the hardest in the whole of Russian history. Russia could not protect itself from the invasion of the Mongol horde. A number of the most important cities were devastated, the fear of the steppe walks made the movement of merchant caravans impossible. In the 12th century, the Great Dnieper transit route “from the Varangians to the Greeks” dried up. In addition, the western border was hostile, and the surviving cities of the North-West - Novgorod, Pskov, Polotsk, Smolensk - sought to reorient their trade to the Baltic Sea, having lost the Russian market.

The decline of trade encouraged the decline of craft and vice versa, which forms a vicious circle. The fall of the order under the influence of the socio-psychological shock was monstrous: the richest Novgorod that was not ruined by anybody for about 60 did not lead stone construction for years.

Cut off by the Great Schism (church split in 1054, which led to the division of Christianity into the Roman Catholic Church in the West and the Orthodox - in the East with the center in Constantinople. - Ed.), The West became completely alien after the devastation of Constantinople in 1204 year. The Byzantine Empire, having survived the six-century onslaught of Islam, fell under the treacherous blows of the crusaders. Between Russia and the Black Sea instead of "their nasty" - Torks, Berendeys, Polovtsy - there was a Horde. Cultural isolation and economic decline entailed the loss of influence of cities and city monasteries.

Only the Church remained the stronghold of the Russian people. A church that was not touched by the Mongols, which "even the gates of hell cannot overcome."

RELIGIOUS CULTURAL Tolerance Mongol amazed contemporaries. Khan's labels exempted the clergy from all kinds of tribute, all obligations in favor of the khan. “This letter is seen and heard from the priests and Chernets neither tributes, nor anything else they want, nor take Baskats, princes scribes, popluzhniki, customs, and take the Yen to apologize and die” (from the label Mengu-Timur 1267) .

Labels protect lands, waters, gardens, gardens, mills belonging to the clergy. Church houses are exempted from standing. For the insult of churches, the blasphemy of faith, the destruction of church property (books, etc.) relied on the death penalty. The Taydul 1347 label of the year directly appeals to the Russian princes to support all these privileges of the church.

It seems appropriate to note that the Russian land, having recovered from the first shock, could resist. In 110, thousands of warriors estimate historians the strength of the united principalities in the thirteenth century. This is obviously more than the forces of Batuyev Ulus. But Russia fought in the West. Poles, Hungarians, Swedes and an incomparably more dangerous Teutonic Order - these are terrible uncompromising enemies.

Brilliant analysis L.N. Gumilyov leaves no doubt that Russia could win at the cost of an alliance with the papacy, at the cost of exaggeration and feudalization. At the price that Prince Daniel Galitsky refused to pay in the end, which the blessed Prince Alexander Nevsky and Metropolitan Kirill decisively rejected.

Moreover, the position in the Horde and in the headquarters of the Great Khan was distinguished by exceptional instability and even yielded to Russian influence. During the campaign, Batu fell out with his cousins, Guyuk, the son of the great Khan Ogedei, and Buri, the son of the great guardian of Yasy, Chagatai.

“Fathers took the side of Batu and punished their impudent sons with disgrace,” wrote L.N. Gumilev, but when Udegei died in 1241, and power fell into the hands of Guyuk's mother, Khansha Turakina, Guyuk and Buri's squads were recalled - and poor Baty turned out to be the ruler of a huge country, having only four thousand faithful warriors with over-tensioned relations with the central government. There was no question of forcible retention of the conquered territories. Return to Mongolia meant a more or less cruel death. And here Batu, a stupid and far-sighted man, began a policy of flirting with his subjects, in particular with the Russian princes Yaroslav Vsevolodich and his son Alexander. Their lands were not subject to tribute. ”

But Guyuk was not good. Mongolian veterans, companions of his grandfather, and Nestorians associated with Tolui’s children came out against him. Although in 1246, Guyuk was proclaimed the Great Khan, but he had no real support. Guyuk tried to find her in the same place where his enemy, Baty, was among the Orthodox population of the conquered countries. He invited “priests from Sham (Syria), Rum (Byzantium), Wasps and Russia” to him and proclaimed a program acceptable to these peoples, a campaign in the Latin West.

MISSION Plano Carpini was officially to convey to the Great Khan an offer to adopt Roman Catholicism. With regard to the Mongolian power, these plans at that stage were hopeless: Khan Guyuk’s letter to Pope Innocent IV remained, where the Khan, threatening with invasion, demanded complete submission. “From here, know for the right thing,” Guillah Rubruk informed the French king in 1253, “that they are very far from the faith, as a result of this opinion, which was strengthened among them, thanks to the Russians, whose number is very large among them.”

At the beginning of 1248, Guyuk died suddenly or was poisoned. Baty, who gained the superiority of forces, entrusted the son of Tolui, Munke, the leader of the Nestorian party, to the throne, and supporters of Guyuk were executed in 1251 year.

OUR REFERENCE. Nestorianism is a teaching traditionally attributed to Nestorius, Archbishop of Constantinople (428 — 431) and condemned as a heresy at the Ephesian (Third Ecumenical) Council in 431. The only Christian church practicing this doctrine is the Assyrian Church of the East. In fact, Nestorianism arose long before Nestorius, being a teaching of the Antioch theological school.

After the conquest of Russia, Batu and Batu's quarrels with the heir to the throne, Guyuk (1241), Russian affairs in the Golden Horde were headed by Sartak, the son of Batu. Christian sympathies of Sartak were widely known, and there is even evidence that he was baptized, of course, according to the Nestorian rite. However, Sartak did not favor Roman Catholics and Orthodox, making an exception only for his friend and brother - Alexander Yaroslavich.

This situation continued until the death of Sartak in 1256, after which Khan Berke (the younger brother of Khan Batu. - Ed.) Converted to Islam, but he tried to establish a diocese of the Orthodox Church in Sarai in 1261 and favored the Orthodox, relying on them in the war with the Persians Ilkhans, patrons of Nestorianism (the rulers of the state of Hulaguid wore the title of Ilkhan, the founder of this dynasty was Hulagu, the younger brother of Mongke. - Ed.)

From this very moment, the Nestorian problem becomes irrelevant for the Russians, and the Orthodox counter mission is directed primarily against the Latins.

AMAZINGHowever, as all historians refuse to notice another reason for the establishment of a department in Sarai, in our opinion, the most important one is the organization of a broad mission among Horde people.

N.M. Karamzin attributed the idea of ​​establishing a department in Saray to Alexander Nevsky, Metropolitan Macarius (Bulgakov) and E.E. Golubinsky - Metropolitan Kirill. Both of them, no doubt, knew that the Polovtsian threat ended with the baptism of many and many Polovtsy. The facts are known: Polovtsian Khan Amurat was baptized in Ryazan in 1132, Aydar - in Kiev in 1168, Bastia - in 1223, entering into an alliance with the Russians against the Mongols; from the Orthodox Polovtsy consisted of a whole wing of the troops of King David the Builder in the Didgor Battle (occurred in 1121 between the troops of the Georgian kingdom and the Seljuks army. - Ed.); Polovtsians who migrated to Hungary were Orthodox. It should be remembered that the Mongol invasion itself Russia brought on, standing up for the Polovtsian friends.

Infinitely much was written about Alexander Nevsky, but, perhaps, undeservedly little - about Metropolitan Kirill, shielded from us by the bright images of the great Saints of Moscow. Meanwhile, this lord occupied the primacy department from 1243 to 1280 years, that is, longer than anyone ever. He opened three new dioceses: Kholmskaya - in 1250 year, Sarai - in 1261 year and Tverskaya - about 1271 year.

It was Metropolitan Kirill who reached agreement between the princes Alexander Nevsky and Daniel Galitsky, between Alexander Nevsky and his brother Andrey. He convened the Vladimir Local Council 1274 of the year. He spent the last journey of Saint Prince Alexander, saying over his coffin the words that had become immortal: "The sun of Suzdal has already gone down."
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  1. Setrac
    Setrac 29 June 2013 09: 07 New
    -1
    And again, the conquering shepherds "conquer the world." All historians must be forced to study mathematics, physics, and logistics. And tell me where is this same barn?
    In fact, we have what? The Golden Horde planted Christianity in Russia, and here they are trying to convince us that nomad shepherds came to Russia to establish Christianity, but this is nonsense!
    The version that the invasion of the Golden Horde is an invasion from the west of the Crusaders looks much more natural, all the more so since the Golden Order existed in Europe, and these same crusaders instilled Christianity, destroying those who disagree, and those who disagree - all adults - all who are above the "cartwheel" .
    I will draw attention to why Christianity must be planted in Russia! When the Roman pope imposing his religion on the conquered territory, the pope taxes this very territory (country) with such a form of colonial tax as church tithe (which the conquerors actually did - they taxed it - tithe). With the advent of the Golden Horde in Russia, the practice of electing princes ceased, the princes began to inherit the "table". Church tithe is an economic stranglehold on the neck of Russian states.
    1. Ivan_Ivanov
      Ivan_Ivanov 29 June 2013 14: 24 New
      11
      Church tithe is an economic stranglehold on the neck of Russian states.


      And you know what taxes are now. 10% is a dream, not a noose.
      Do you know what tribute we are paying now simply because of the arrangement of the financial and banking system? 10% is a dream, not a noose.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 29 June 2013 14: 54 New
        -2
        Quote: Ivan_Ivanov
        And you know what taxes are now. 10% is a dream, not a noose.
        Do you know what tribute we are paying now simply because of the arrangement of the financial and banking system? 10% is a dream, not a noose.

        This is in addition to other taxes, so it's still a noose.
    2. Nvalexandr
      Nvalexandr 30 June 2013 08: 23 New
      -5
      hi Check out the works on the new chronology of the history of our scientists Nosovsky and Fomenko. There it is quite intelligible, according to the facts, everything is described and told, and shown. Who are the Russians, who are the Mongols, Batu, Mamai, Genghis Khan, Prince Dmitry, etc., what is the Golden Horde. It is very interesting and really makes you think, and you understand why now such a gimp in a geopolitical setting hi
  2. Beck
    Beck 29 June 2013 09: 18 New
    12
    Finally, objective lighting. And then the churches were desecrated, and the priests were tormented, and the icons were destroyed. Under the Horde, church lands were not taxed, clergy were inviolable, there was an intra-church court, the decisions of which could not be quashed even by the khan, and if the khan could not, then the princes even more so.

    And such an attitude of the khans to any religion comes from Genghis Khan Yasa - steppe law enforcement.

    The main task of Yasa was to ensure peace and order in society and the state.
    Yasa prescribes “first, to love one another; secondly, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not be a traitor; to honor the elders and the poor, and if there is someone between them who violates these commandments, those who are to be put to death. ”

    Yasa has a section dealing with crimes against religion, morality, and established customs.

    Such are recognized - Oppression of ANY OF THE CHURCHES AND THE Clergy EXISTING IN THE WORLD, INSURANCE OF THE RITUALIST CHARACTER, intentional lie, adultery, debauchery.
  3. Che
    Che 29 June 2013 09: 30 New
    0
    There was no Mongol invasion, the internal dismantling of Great Tartary. Therefore, the West also sought to disunite the peoples who inhabited these territories. Hence the entry of ambassadors and envoys to these lands.
    1. Aaron Zawi
      Aaron Zawi 29 June 2013 09: 35 New
      +2
      Quote: Che
      There was no Mongol invasion, the internal dismantling of Great Tartary. Therefore, the West also sought to disunite the peoples who inhabited these territories. Hence the entry of ambassadors and envoys to these lands.

      I advise you to read the book by Vladimir Chivilikhin "Memory" before making such statements. This journalist shocked me with his analytics in the 80 years.
    2. FRIGATE2
      FRIGATE2 29 June 2013 11: 05 New
      +2
      Quote: Che
      There was no Mongol invasion, the internal dismantling of Great Tartary. Therefore, the West also sought to disunite the peoples who inhabited these territories. Hence the entry of ambassadors and envoys to these lands.

      Oh, how much nonsense is in your head and you believe all kinds of fiction from Fomenko
      1. Nvalexandr
        Nvalexandr 30 June 2013 08: 27 New
        -2
        negative Fomenko just relies on the facts, and not on the fiction of the stoned geyropeyts Scaliger
    3. Nvalexandr
      Nvalexandr 30 June 2013 08: 25 New
      -4
      good good good Here are the golden words !!!!!
      1. Dim Dim
        Dim Dim 30 June 2013 10: 40 New
        +2
        All that Fomenko says is nonsense. He denies completely obvious things, such as the methods of scientific dating of archaeological sites. Or, in your opinion, all archeologists, especially before excavation, pour a multimeter cultural layer on top and change the isotopic composition (I wonder what kind of radiation is irradiated with?) In order to give the findings the required age-related indicators.
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 30 June 2013 14: 16 New
          +2
          Quote: DimDim
          All that Fomenko says is nonsense.

          Fomenko is a mathematician, for this historians hate him, he is smarter than all historians combined. And mathematics is an exact science, unlike pseudoscience, history. The shortcomings of scientific methods are described in detail by Fomenko, but it doesn’t matter, answer yourself, what kind of scientific methods in the 17th and 18th centuries Scaliger and Petavus possessed when writing their chronology - Kabbalah, numerology, astrology.
        2. Setrac
          Setrac 30 June 2013 14: 21 New
          0
          Quote: DimDim
          isotopic composition (I wonder what kind of radiation is irradiated?),

          Determining age by carbon isotope concentration is actually the main “scientific” method of historians. The idea itself is not bad, but it has a system error, the concentration of the carbon isotope in the atmosphere is accepted as a constant, but in fact it is not, it is a variable parameter and depends on many parameters.
          1. Dim Dim
            Dim Dim 30 June 2013 21: 47 New
            +3
            The concentration is measured not in the atmosphere, but inside an existing object. The half-life, the physical constant for each isotope does not change with time. From the moment of the death of a living organism, or the time it took to make a wooden or other object containing plant carbon C14, its exchange with the environment ceases and then its cosmicity decreases by half according to the law of half-life every 5700 years, being replaced by products of this decay. Only completely ignorant people, such as those who claimed that the Earth is polar, because no one is falling from it, can deny this. Let historians deal with history, and let mathematicians solve equations, but they must remember that solutions that contradict the physical meaning are not answers. And if mathematics has not grown together, then we need wipers.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 30 June 2013 22: 11 New
              -2
              Quote: DimDim
              The concentration is measured not in the atmosphere, but inside an existing object.

              The initial content of the isotope in the atmosphere and inside the object is not a constant
              Quote: DimDim
              Only completely ignorant people, such as those who claimed that the Earth is polar, because no one is falling from it, can deny this.
              1. Volkhov
                Volkhov 1 July 2013 00: 32 New
                +1
                Any cometary explosion like Chelyabinsk adds to the surface of C14 and dating may not work at all, as in Alaska.
        3. Nvalexandr
          Nvalexandr 30 June 2013 18: 33 New
          +1
          negative it is precisely by the methods by which historians determine the age of their “finds” that it is impossible to reliably determine accurately. Scaliger’s ideas were put into the tower for our historians, which is what the truth is. Only on this long-term grinding our historians rely. We can stop watching these gay men with their own fictional history. Example: the so-called historians decided to determine which of the pharaohs owns the construction of one of the pyramids. They started to "pick" ... They dug the statue of the pharaoh like that, and the URA for the whole world - the pyramid was built in honor of this pharaoh. But again, the FACTS were not taken into account, namely, that the figurine was buried upside down in this pyramid !!! This is a sign of disrespect, neglect of the pharaoh, victory over him. And who defeated him ??? Well, hi with him ... It’s also easier ... We must already learn to build a theory according to the facts, and not to adjust the facts to the crazy Scaligerian version.
    4. Beck
      Beck 1 July 2013 12: 18 New
      +2
      Quote: Che
      There was no Mongol invasion, the internal dismantling of Great Tartary.


      What was it? There was no battle at Kalka or it was Ryazans, there, against Novgorod, stood wall to wall. And they burned Kiev, or something Smolensk? And on the Kulikovo field, what, Muscovites arranged a showdown between themselves? And why were Rusichs in those days bore the names of Batu, Borondai, Dzhanibek, Nogai, Mamai, etc.?

      And why only because of the great-power vanity the jingoistic patriots will not invent. This is a story. And the history of Russia itself, which is Great, otherwise the Rusich would not have built such a state as it is. And after a thousand years, Uroshniki, with more than one, due to defeat at Kalka, pour a plentiful tear.

      Kazakhstan has been fighting the Dzungars for a hundred years. He suffered defeats and celebrated victories. But we do not shed tears, we perceive everything as inevitably happened. And we do not change the Dzungars to other Kazakh tribes.

      Why is great-power chauvinism bad? This is because it only reserves the right to history, only itself is exalted above other peoples, only see the future of mankind in itself, only consider themselves bearers of the spiritual, recognize only their culture, not understanding that the culture of every nation, whatever it may be in terms of level, it is ONLY a part of the whole human culture.
  4. Pamir210
    Pamir210 29 June 2013 09: 39 New
    13
    Quote: Setrac
    The version that the invasion of the Golden Horde is an invasion from the west of the crusaders looks much more natural

    this "version" looks a lot ridiculous.
  5. Setrac
    Setrac 29 June 2013 09: 49 New
    -10
    Quote: Pamir210
    this "version" looks a lot ridiculous.

    Your words are just rubbish (a statement as categorical as yours).
    1. Pamir210
      Pamir210 29 June 2013 11: 35 New
      +2
      Nonsense is just your cue.
      There is no point in arguing.
      You still write the Mongols in the crusaders)
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 29 June 2013 12: 11 New
        -3
        Quote: Pamir210
        You still write the Mongols in the crusaders)

        These are your speculations.
        Quote: Pamir210
        Nonsense is just your cue.

        I will explain, since you are so dull.
        Your cue.
        Quote: Pamir210
        this "version" looks a lot ridiculous.
        pointless like mine
        Quote: Setrac
        Your words are just rubbish

        Explain where I'm wrong, where I cheated or lied?
        There was no forced Christianization? Or were there no unprincipled benefits for the Christian church? Was there no church tithe? There were no executions for the denial of Christianity? Just like now they are planting in Europe for denying the Holocaust, a familiar handwriting. You do not believe the facts, but you believe the speculations of historians about the four thousand shepherds who enslaved half the world.
        Give a clear answer and not "Baba Yaga against."
        1. Pamir210
          Pamir210 29 June 2013 12: 19 New
          +2
          Since you are so slow-witted, I explain what your words were about.
          "The version that the invasion of the Golden Horde is an invasion from the west of the crusaders looks much more natural."
          it’s about these, and not about tithing, etc.
          as well as thoughts about the Golden Horde and a certain Golden Order.
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 29 June 2013 12: 42 New
            0
            Quote: Pamir210
            also about thinking about the Golden Horde and a certain Golden Order.

            The order was, he himself was surprised.
            Quote: Pamir210
            "The version that the invasion of the Golden Horde is an invasion from the west of the crusaders looks much more natural."
            it’s about these, and not about tithing, etc.

            And let's follow the sequence of events!
            At first, the Mongol-Tatars conquer the mysterious Ugrians who supposedly lived in the foothills of the Urals, but the Ugrians still live - these are Hungarians who also live in the foothills, but not the Urals. Then comes the conquest of the Bulgars, which traditional history places in Kazan, but in Tatarstan there is not a single ethnic Bulgarin, but there is the state of Bulgaria to the west of Russia. Further, the Polovtsians, who are not a trace in the south, I note in Russia many peoples survived and multiplied, some very hostile to the Russians, and the Polovtsians disappeared somewhere, and therefore, the Polovtsians — in a Catholic manner — were Poles, and again in the west.
            Your story is contrary to the facts.
            1. Pamir210
              Pamir210 29 June 2013 12: 56 New
              0
              There’s no point in arguing.
              You haven’t heard such a ravine for a long time.
              You definitely missed the story at school.
              1. Setrac
                Setrac 29 June 2013 13: 37 New
                0
                Quote: Pamir210
                There’s no point in arguing.
                You haven’t heard such a ravine for a long time.
                You definitely missed the story at school.

                What nonsense? What the Ugrians live in Hungary? Or that the Bulgarians live in Bulgaria? Maybe with the Poles - it is unprovable, but the fact that the words Pole and Polovtsy - cognate - this is also nonsense? Open the map.
                Your argument - "Baba Yaga against" was already.
                Or maybe make a screen of your certificate? If you have it! Before claiming my education.
                1. Pamir210
                  Pamir210 29 June 2013 14: 08 New
                  0
                  and what with the fact that the Pole and the Polovtsian are cognate ladle is the same from this series?)))
                  no, I can’t do a screen of my diploma (Tomsk State University, Department of History) (I don’t have a scanner at home))
                  1. Setrac
                    Setrac 29 June 2013 14: 31 New
                    -2
                    Ask where the word "colonel" came from in Russian.
                    1. Pamir210
                      Pamir210 29 June 2013 15: 20 New
                      -1
                      so what with a ladle?)))
                      1. Setrac
                        Setrac 29 June 2013 15: 42 New
                        -3
                        I suggested that you search, all right, anyway a regiment is not a nation, but two nations with the same root name - a serious argument, I don’t remember a similar incident.
                        P.S. Why do you need my answers, minus yourself, and I will minus you, everyone is happy.
                      2. Pamir210
                        Pamir210 29 June 2013 18: 18 New
                        +1
                        Who is asking about Colonel?
                        I ask about the LEADBOARD ...
                        Ladle - a large (volume from 100 ml or more) pouring spoon with a long handle. It is used for pouring soups (transparent), compotes, milk, etc. from utensils for cooking (pots) into utensils for eating food (plates, cups)
                        .
                        and your answers ... not that I could not live without them, but reading is funny.
                      3. Setrac
                        Setrac 29 June 2013 21: 14 New
                        0
                        Quote: Pamir210
                        Who is asking about Colonel?

                        Shame on my gray-haired head. But the answer is the same, ladle is not a nation
                      4. baltika-18
                        baltika-18 30 June 2013 14: 54 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Pamir210
                        I ask about the BAD.

                        The ladle has nothing to do with Polovtsy and Poles (these words are derived from the word "field").
                        The word "ladle" has the root "catch", the prefix "by", the suffix "nick", came from the word catch, catch, catch.
                        I don’t think I need to explain what they caught. The guys need to be very serious about the Russian language, it has great power and a huge storehouse of information.
    2. FRIGATE2
      FRIGATE2 29 June 2013 13: 46 New
      +4
      Quote: Setrac
      Explain where I'm wrong, where I cheated or lied?

      In everything that you write, you are wrong and not logical
      Quote: Setrac
      There was no forced Christianization?

      It was violent in places, but it is a matter of time and the quality of scientific progress. Now, if your pagan or much divine religion is better, then why were your ancestors Christianized? If you are such a cool Russian, then why are your relatives leaving for America and Americanizing, why did the Nicaeans (Byzantines) move so quickly to the Seljuk Turks? then Christianity was largely inferior to Islam
      Quote: Setrac
      There were no executions for the denial of Christianity? Just like now they plant in Europe for denying the Holocaust, a familiar handwriting

      You confuse everything upside down
      Quote: Setrac
      You do not believe the facts, but you believe the speculations of historians about the four thousand shepherds who enslaved half the world.

      What facts did you convey? You just the same and voice and arrange demagogy after reading Fomenko and others like them
      Quote: Setrac
      The order was, he was surprised

      Which order? Altyn Horde is now an order?
      Quote: Setrac
      First, the Mongol-Tatars conquer the mysterious Ugrians who allegedly lived in the foothills of the Urals

      Finno-Ugric tribes professor don't tell you anything?
      Quote: Setrac
      but the Ugrians live now - these are the Hungarians, who also live in the foothills, but not the Urals

      Hungarians are Hungary, direct descendants of the conqueror's Adil empire. This is a mixture of prototurks, Ugrians, Slavs.
      Quote: Setrac
      otom is the conquest of the Bulgars, which traditional history places in Kazan

      And the Bulgarian Kaganate does not tell you anything from Bulgaria to Bulgaria, the present Tatarstan.
      Quote: Setrac
      but in Tatarstan there is not a single ethnic Bulgarin, but there is the state of Bulgaria west of Russia

      You study the Tatars themselves, they are still divided apart from the local ones, one elderly Tatar was offended by me, he said that he is the Bulgar, not the Tatars
      Quote: Setrac
      Further, the Polovtsians, who are not a trace in the south, I note in Russia many nations survived and multiplied, some very hostile to the Russians, and the Polovtsians disappeared somewhere, and therefore, the Polovtsians were Poles in a Catholic manner, and again in the west.

      This is what the Polovtsy called people professing a religion with half a cross and a month, not the Poles, they were called Cathans in the Catholic manner, or now the Kumans write in the history of Russia.
      In conclusion, this is for you
      Quote: Setrac
      Your story is contrary to the facts.

      You’d include your head and logic and broaden your horizons other than Fomenkovskaya literature, but rather get acquainted with these peoples
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 29 June 2013 14: 28 New
        -5
        Quote: FRIGATE2
        In everything that you write, you are wrong and not logical

        Where is the specifics? Are Hungarians not Hungarians? Are Bulgarians not Bulgarians?
        Quote: FRIGATE2
        why did your ancestors christianize

        Go to church, are there many people? Because they imposed.
        Quote: FRIGATE2
        why now your relatives leave for America

        This is generally "past the checkout".
        Quote: FRIGATE2
        Finno-Ugric tribes professor don't tell you anything?

        I know Finns, I know Hungarians, Finno-Ugric peoples - an invention of your predecessors. Each of these ethnic groups is in itself.
        Quote: FRIGATE2
        And the Bulgarian Kaganate does not tell you anything from Bulgaria to Bulgaria, the present Tatarstan.

        When and why did Bulgaria become Tatarstan? And where is the "Bulgarian" language?
        Quote: FRIGATE2
        after reading Fomenko

        Morozov, Spiny, enough for a start?
        Quote: FRIGATE2
        You’d include your head and logic and broaden your horizons other than Fomenkovskaya literature, but rather get acquainted with these peoples

        Well, this is the main and most significant argument of the supporters of traditional history - to call Fomenkovtsy.
        And tell me, dear historian, what data, disciplines and sciences did such a famous compiler of chronology as Scaliger use? And his predecessors? Kabbalah, numerology, astrology (not to be confused with astronomy wink ), and you propose to believe in this indecency? But what about the logic? Horizon?
        1. aleshka1987
          aleshka1987 30 June 2013 13: 35 New
          0
          Thank you for making people think! Winners always write history!
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 29 June 2013 15: 44 New
        +2
        Quote: FRIGATE2
        It was violent in places, but it is a matter of time and the quality of scientific progress.

        In some places, the Third Reich attacked the USSR, and in some places - NO, but this is a matter of time and scientific progress.
        Do not you find that such a phrase sounds somehow silly?
      3. baltika-18
        baltika-18 30 June 2013 14: 58 New
        -1
        Quote: FRIGATE2
        Polovtsy so called people professing religion with half a cross and a month

        Yeah.....
        When did you say frigate that you know Russian very well. But you didn’t answer my question then. I’ll repeat what the words “ear” and “good” have in common. Test for understanding the Russian language. If you can answer, let's talk about Polovtsy.
        1. FRIGATE2
          FRIGATE2 30 June 2013 23: 52 New
          +3
          excuse me. I do not see anything common in these words, unless this is your game and only you have projections.

          Have you read all the books of Suleimenov?
          1. baltika-18
            baltika-18 1 July 2013 10: 10 New
            +1
            Quote: FRIGATE2
            Have you read all the books of Suleimenov?

            I read. He has a system error. The development of civilizations from south to north.
            Quote: FRIGATE2
            I don’t see anything common in these words,

            In vain. They have one and the same root base. "CLS" and "HRS". Sounds "k", "g", "x" make up one group, as they form in the same place, are interchangeable. Sounds " l "and" r "are also replaceable, for some nationalities (Japanese) the sound" r "is absent, instead of it is" l ". The sounds" c "and" w "are also replaceable, children often do not pronounce the sound" sh ".
            Communication: an ear is bread, the basis of nutrition is good. In some regions of Russia just recently, ripened bread was called "empty."
            Some Asian nationalities (Chinese, Japanese, etc.) instead of "good" pronounce "holos."
            It is not enough to know how to speak Russian, it still needs to be understood.
            1. Setrac
              Setrac 1 July 2013 14: 06 New
              0
              Quote: baltika-18
              It is not enough to know how to speak Russian, it still needs to be understood.

              It is difficult for an American spy to understand Russian.
              1. FRIGATE2
                FRIGATE2 1 July 2013 19: 31 New
                +2
                Quote: Setrac
                It is difficult for an American spy to understand Russian.

                Mr. Setrak, are you addressing this to me? If so, then I'm not a spy, but I live in Almaty, young, 22 years old.
                I don’t deal with a photo, a document scanner and their expulsion - your catchphrase.

                And you must be so respectable as you, to believe in all sorts of conspiracies against Russia, you are not a child
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 1 July 2013 19: 35 New
                  0
                  Quote: FRIGATE2
                  If so, then no I'm not a spy

                  Yes, I was just joking, I do not consider you a spy.
                  1. Setrac
                    Setrac 2 July 2013 23: 23 New
                    -1
                    Quote: FRIGATE2
                    If so, then I'm not a spy, but I live in Almaty, young, 22 years old.

                    Not a spy, just an agent of influence.
            2. FRIGATE2
              FRIGATE2 1 July 2013 19: 27 New
              +3
              Quote: baltika-18
              I read. He has a system error. The development of civilizations from south to north.

              Well, these are his thoughts of the 1980s.
              his modern works show a different opinion thanks to Kazakhstani archaeologists. Sumer civilization did not go to Suver, but rather, from Suver to Sumer.
              Quote: baltika-18
              Some Asian nationalities (Chinese, Japanese, etc.) instead of "good" pronounce "holos."

              rummaged in Japanese, no COOL, よ く (Yoku readable) in Japanese GOOD, 잘 (jal readable in Korean GOOD.
              You see, you did not delve into the works and methodology of Suleimenov, because why, he is Kazakh, and therefore not smarter than you - Russian, only you know your language, and the rest of the boobies are unaware and therefore, by factory settings, you only recognize yourself and never think and think that the other person may be right.
              You would continue to trust the works of Petukhov, Chudinov, Karamzin since they are of your nationality.
              Before judging the Japanese, one would have to know a little about it.

              Although I admit, this time we learned a lesson and argue more thoroughly and substantively, in my opinion you started studying the Russian language a little by resorting to the Suleimenov method, I will praise you and honestly even glad.
              Not that Mr. Setrak with Fomenko's delusions in his head, coupled with the delusions of Morozov and Lomonosov.
              It is doubly nice that you are a religious atheist, but you must strive for absolute atheism.
              It's nice to argue with you, thank you.
              1. baltika-18
                baltika-18 1 July 2013 20: 33 New
                0
                Quote: FRIGATE2
                fumbled in Japanese, no

                I talked with Japanese and Chinese studying Russian, they physically cannot clearly pronounce the word “good”, you did not understand me a bit.
                Quote: FRIGATE2
                You see, did not delve into the works and methodology of Suleimenov

                He has a good understanding of the methodology of Suleimenov. It is not new to me, moreover, I have been familiar with such a methodology for a long time. The substitution of sounds “b” and “m” is not a discovery, for example. In Russian, there are 5 such sounds: “b”, “p”, “ m "," v "," f ", muttering lip sounds.
                Quote: FRIGATE2
                only you know your language, and the rest of the boobies are unaware

                Why dunce. I just urge you to think and analyze.
                Quote: FRIGATE2
                I think you started studying the Russian language a little resorting to the method of Suleimenov,

                In principle, he already answered this. Everything that was written by Suleimenov, he knew before reading it.
                Quote: FRIGATE2
                Mr. Setrak with Fomenko's delusions in his head, coupled with the delusions of Morozov and Lomonosov.

                By the way, I don’t recognize classical history. Nobody knows the true history of mankind. I know one thing was completely different from how modern scholars draw, both classical and alternative. Which one is closer to the truth, we’ll soon think we will find out.
                Quote: FRIGATE2
                It is doubly nice that you are a religious atheist, but you must strive for absolute atheism.

                Absolute atheism ......
                You know humanity is not alone. The whole question is who our ancestors considered gods, who they were, and why all this?
                1. FRIGATE2
                  FRIGATE2 1 July 2013 21: 14 New
                  +3
                  Quote: baltika-18
                  I talked with Japanese and Chinese studying Russian, they physically cannot clearly pronounce the word “good”, you did not understand me a bit.

                  Well, this is an emphasis, and not what you said before, like "Russian to know - not yet to think in Russian"
                  Quote: baltika-18
                  By the way, I don’t recognize classical history. Nobody knows the true history of mankind. I know one thing was completely different from how modern scholars draw, both classical and alternative. Which one is closer to the truth, we’ll soon think we will find out.

                  Well, Setraka carries you further. Of course, the official story is not perfect, but it is closer to the truth.
                  Quote: baltika-18
                  Absolute atheism ......

                  Well, atheism was written before.
                  Quote: baltika-18
                  You know humanity is not alone. The whole question is who our ancestors considered gods, who they were, and why all this?

                  This is what aliens you met. Life on other galaxies is theoretically possible, but the chance to meet it is minimal and tends to zero. Since not every living creature can suddenly take and gain intelligence as humans / people, otherwise why not see talking seals
                  But ancient people believed in God without understanding the phenomenon, and only the most daring daredevils managed to conquer a strong element: water, fire, and then the production of heavy tools.
                  You walk alone and a terrible thunder suddenly flares up, you put yourself in the place of that ancient person that you do not know the laws of physics and hromology or what science is called there. What will you feel? that's right - fear is the strongest fear and of course you will submit to the elements, stop and ask for mercy not to kill, because the thunderstorm doesn’t touch everyone, then the chance of your survival is maximum and after the thunder you will preach your religion to other people who did not fall under the thunder, because God spared you, which means you believe that it exists.
                  Centaurs - half-henchmen and half-horses - this is a visual interpretation by the ancient Anatolians of their first contacts with the Turks - skillful horse archers, masters of their craft and ferocious conquerors.
                  The gods of antiquity should not be looked for in aliens and all kinds of Gods, antiquity is just such a stage of a person when everything was understood in the most primitive way and this is called myths, but this does not say that the Greeks lied and were too people with a rich imagination, no, this reflects them a vision of reality as well as Russian fairy tales about Koshchei the Immortal, Koshchshchi - from a Turkic nomad / wanderer, and when these nomads really flooded holy Russia and are immortal, that is, invincible for their time, this should have appeared in the form of legends among the people, which then Pushkin will make it artistic / theatrical, that is, a fairy tale, where the hero - good conquers evil.

                  Apollo, the bearer of the sun on a carriage a day, do you really think after such a myth that you used to set the sun on a carriage a day and in the evening when everyone did the job, they removed the sun? if so, then you are Chudinofil, Fomenofil, otherwise they say I’m not lying, I’m telling facts like Mr. Setrak, but like you, miserable little people, you don’t speak dumb about facts and traditions.
                  Previously, people could write anything, but this does not say that this mythical world existed and it does not say that ancient people lied, it says that ancient people understood their then surrounding world and peoples
  • Opera
    Opera 29 June 2013 09: 55 New
    +3
    What is absolutely positive in the article is that this segment of the history of Russia requires comprehensive and impartial research!
    There are so many contradictions in the history of the time of the Golden Horde that naturally naturally raise the question - was there a boy ?!
    Quote: Setrac
    In fact, we have what? The Golden Horde planted Christianity in Russia

    In fact, we have the true flourishing of Orthodoxy, the widespread construction of monasteries and temples, the centralization of the Orthodox Church and its management! What kind of crusaders (the first time I hear a similar version of the IGA !!!), and the Tatars - the Mongols, altruists are generally landscapers!
    Quote: Setrac
    Church tithe - an economic noose on the neck of Russian states

    Well, yes, yes ... the stranglehold is such that they brought gold and silver from all over Europe and not only to us! The domes of our churches (not only in large cities, but also in small cities) were covered with gold wings (where else was this ?!), and in some places the golden gates were present !!! And travelers, both European and Eastern, spoke with admiration about the wealth of the Russian princes and that the majority in the Horde are armed Rus, which, however, is everywhere and on crossings and on roads and in cities ... Travelers, chroniclers wrote about this and wrote these fortunately preserved to this day, unlike the Mongolian labels written in Mongolian! For some reason, mostly the Mongols wrote in Russian!
    The contradiction in the article is a cart and a small cart - robbery. fear, decline ... and then the Russians had influence in the Horde and all kinds of resistance of the Horde to Catholicism, with complete tolerance and goodwill towards Orthodoxy !!! Well, why such metamorphoses ?!
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 29 June 2013 10: 50 New
      -2
      Quote: Oper
      What kind of crusaders (the first time I hear a similar version of the IGA !!!)

      Crusaders planted Christianity is not good at all. There are many versions, only you who believe in the true history of traditional chronology (such is your faith among adherents) do not want to see anything.
      Quote: Oper
      In fact, we have the true flowering of Orthodoxy, the widespread construction of monasteries and temples

      You know this from a history written on the basis of church records, since the church itself did not offend its beloved when writing history.
      Quote: Oper
      The domes of our churches (not only in large cities, but also in small cities) were covered with gold wings (where else was this ?!), and in some places the golden gates were present !!!

      This is not the merit of the church, not the church earned on these temples.
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 29 June 2013 10: 54 New
      -5
      Quote: Oper
      For some reason, mostly the Mongols wrote in Russian!

      The version of the Russian Mughal empire has the right to be and does not contradict the version of the invasion of the Crusaders and the imposition of Christianity.
    3. Andrew-001
      Andrew-001 2 July 2013 20: 11 New
      +1
      Quote: Oper
      What is absolutely positive in the article is that this segment of the history of Russia requires comprehensive and impartial research!

      For myself (others may disagree - I will not be offended) I consider this period to be a civil war repeat
      What battle do not take - on the one hand the Tatar-Mongols with the support of the Russians, on the other hand the Russians with the support of the Tatar-Mongols.
  • krez-74
    krez-74 29 June 2013 10: 17 New
    12
    From the beginning of the reign of the Romanovs, there is a systematic distortion of history to Romanov Rus! Draw conclusions yourself, but this was done, purely in order to discredit the Rurikovich in every possible way.
  • Opera
    Opera 29 June 2013 10: 59 New
    +7
    Quote: krez-74
    From the beginning of the reign of the Romanovs, there is a systematic distortion of history to Romanov Rus! Draw conclusions yourself, but this was done, purely in order to discredit the Rurikovich in every possible way.




    Defame in order to secure a "right" to power. To discredit not only the Rurikovich, but also the entire Romanov story!
  • nnnnnn
    nnnnnn 29 June 2013 11: 16 New
    14
    The Norman theory of the genesis of the statehood of Russia was declared the only true one and not subject to doubt precisely because this was a political need. The ruling Romanov dynasty was completely non-Russian by blood, so the tale of calling the Vikings became a kind of phantom reflection of the "return" of the European aristocracy to the Russian throne. For the most part, the Russian elite wanted to be their own in Europe, and the romantic doctrine of the Scythian identity didn’t insert anyone with the exception of rare dissidents. The very idea of ​​a common origin with stinking blackness was deeply disgusting to many elitists. The great problem was that Europeans began to compose their great past much earlier, and did not leave a place in antiquity for Russian "savages". Therefore, for the ruling class of Russia, there was only one loophole - to cling to the history of Europe already written in general terms - they say that we have no relation to the redneck cattle, our ancestors sailed to these wild lands and brought civilization to the natives. That is, the task was narrowed: it was only necessary to write the history of glorious European civilizers who arrived to cultivate wild Slavic tribes. According to official mythology, civilizers were brilliant in military affairs and very wise: they nailed the shields on the gates, accepted the Christian faith voluntarily, and not as conquered peoples from conquerors, christened the dense subjects of the pagans, well, etc. .. The main backbone of Russian history the Germans Schletser, Bayer and Miller, discharged from abroad, quickly scribbled back in the 12th century, and in the next century the popularization of this doctrine began. The decisive contribution to this matter was made by the aforementioned writer Karamzin, who, without taking his loins off the chair, built XNUMX volumes of “History of the Russian State”, which were published in huge prints of those times and sold like hotcakes.
  • Oleg1986
    Oleg1986 29 June 2013 12: 17 New
    -5
    Oh, again, pagans from their caves climbed out. Now, if someone ruins Russia, it’s you, and not some pink-blooded liberalists there, since the ratio of cockroaches in your head to the braking moment and the force of attraction of the fifth point to the sofa is clearly in your favor. Such "Rusich" manage easier than ever.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 29 June 2013 12: 26 New
      +6
      Quote: Oleg1986
      Oh, again, pagans from their caves climbed out. Now, if someone ruins Russia, it’s you, and not some pink-haired liberalists

      And again a lie! Religion does not unite people, but rather disconnects.
      Orthodoxy was introduced and went:
      Once - and cut off the western lands, because they are Catholic,
      Two - down with southern Russia - they are Muslims,
      Three - down with the east - they are pagans.
      Well, there is little things - the destruction of the Old Believers - mind you, Christians, not Gentiles.
  • ed65b
    ed65b 29 June 2013 12: 24 New
    +3
    What did the "Mongols" cut Russia? pay tribute gifts give behave quietly again from the west cover. It was the crazy Arabs who let everyone under the knife and the “Mongols” had brains. And as there was actually no one knows, personally did not attend and did not interview eyewitnesses. Well, if we are still Orthodox, then they let God pray in their native language.
  • Nicotine 7
    Nicotine 7 29 June 2013 14: 06 New
    +2
    Well, if for some the Byzantine religion is truly the Russian Faith, then yes ... it all fits together, everything is as if by a textbook. There is only a problem with the Mongols: how did they steer the whole continent and suddenly ... were left with nothing. rainy day, nothing was left.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 29 June 2013 14: 34 New
      +3
      Have you noticed too? To call the Greek Orthodox religion - Russian - I feel somewhere (fucking ....) deceiving me.
    2. ed65b
      ed65b 29 June 2013 14: 54 New
      0
      Because the Mongols are a generic name. And there just wasn’t there.
  • indrik
    indrik 29 June 2013 14: 27 New
    +1
    but why would the Horde oppress the churchmen? The church always and at all angles shouted that the Batyev invasion is God's punishment for sins. It was beneficial for the Horde to support the priesthood, because it helped keep the conquered people in subjection, like, pray and everything will pass, and kick it’s not necessary, because it’s the punishment of the Lord, and when it considers that our sins are atoned for, then it will save us from invaders. The question of whether the boy (the Mongol invasion) was a separate conversation.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 3 July 2013 14: 01 New
      +2
      Quote: Indric
      but why would the Horde oppress the clergy?

      do not do something especially in the eyes of the steppes from the Russian church. among the steppes, any priest of any religion is "a man of God." even if the Russian priests claimed that Genghis Khan was a mad dog, they would still haven’t done anything.
      This is not to be understood by the European and he is trying everywhere to find some selfish motive in the religious tolerance of the steppes. but there is no secret connotation here. it’s just that everyone (even before Genghis Khan) was driven into the head by tradition that it was impossible to offend “God's servants”. These Semitic religions are trying to achieve their dominance, and the steppes are really convinced that all religions are good and have a right to exist. All this was before Chinggis, all this is preserved among the steppes in the 21st century.
      In Kazakhstan, churches, churches, and synagogues are being built, and this does not bother anyone from the Kazakhs. On one of the main sights of Astana in the Baiterek tower there is a pedestal on which all the heads of all world religions wrote wishes to Kazakhstan. The Kazakhs are calm - and Buddha, and Christ, and Allah, and Krishna are happy with us)))) This is our mentality. I once deeply homesick abroad and wanted to pray (although I do not show piety at home in the KZ), well, it didn’t matter to me. I went to a nearby Buddhist temple, watched them pray, and prayed there himself until he felt better. It didn’t bother me at all that I prayed as a Buddhist, and not as a Muslim. Because I am a steppe, and the steppes are very far from religious intolerance. And he gave money to this Buddhist temple (a little, but sincerely) so that it would stand for another 1000 years, as it had before me.
      Kazakhs, although they do not live in the 21st century along Yasa (by the way, in Turkic it literally translates as "What to do" from the Yasau infinitive - to "do"; in Kazakh, this code of laws was called "jasus", because Kazakhs "jack", and not "yekayut", and the "yekaying" name Yasa came from the literary Turkic norm), but the basic rules of behavior are unconsciously still observed in everyday life and culture. These laws were both before Chinggis, and after (Instructions of Khan Tauke - "Zhety zharga").
      In short, the steppes do not really care about the religious characteristics of their neighbors.
  • indrik
    indrik 29 June 2013 14: 31 New
    +1
    I forgot to add that the horde did not pretend to church (monastery) lands, as well as to income from them and parishioners.
  • chauvinist
    chauvinist 29 June 2013 16: 10 New
    -5
    The Tatar-Mongols were much worse than the most fierce of the SS. Dozens of burnt cities, tens of thousands of slain and slaughtered. This served as an impetus for the final destruction of the ancient Russian state and the collapse of the eastern into Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians. For almost three hundred years Russia was enclosed in a Mongolian vice, many principalities became part of Lithuania. And what about the church. She saved Russia many times from ruin by her authority in the Horde.
    1. indrik
      indrik 29 June 2013 18: 10 New
      +4
      show at least one military, and with it, civilian, but mass grave of the Mongoloids near Kozelsk, Ryazan, Rostov. There are none of these. It means there was no raid (Kozelsk held the defense for seven weeks)
      1. chauvinist
        chauvinist 29 June 2013 23: 09 New
        0
        Under Old Ryazan, several thousand skeletons with signs of violent death.
        1. indrik
          indrik 30 June 2013 01: 53 New
          +2
          What is the race?
  • soldier's grandson
    soldier's grandson 29 June 2013 19: 31 New
    -2
    the Mongols were told by the Chinese that in Russia they make horsemeat stew and when they arrived the stews did not see and got angry
  • Pamir210
    Pamir210 29 June 2013 22: 23 New
    0
    Quote: Setrac
    Shame on my gray-haired head

    that's for sure you noticed)
    good characterization of your knowledge of history
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 29 June 2013 23: 26 New
      -2
      Quote: Pamir210
      that's for sure you noticed)
      good characterization of your knowledge of history

      And would you go to a butterfly farm to catch?
      1. Pamir210
        Pamir210 2 July 2013 18: 40 New
        0
        )) where to go and what to do I decide without you, "a connoisseur of history")))
  • mithridate
    mithridate 29 June 2013 23: 36 New
    -3
    pseudo-historical vinaigred
  • Ross
    Ross 30 June 2013 01: 39 New
    +1
    Quote: Setrac
    And again, the conquering shepherds "conquer the world." All historians must be forced to study mathematics, physics, and logistics. And tell me where is this same barn?
    In fact, we have what? The Golden Horde planted Christianity in Russia, and here they are trying to convince us that nomad shepherds came to Russia to establish Christianity, but this is nonsense!
    The version that the invasion of the Golden Horde is an invasion from the west of the Crusaders looks much more natural, all the more so since the Golden Order existed in Europe, and these same crusaders instilled Christianity, destroying those who disagree, and those who disagree - all adults - all who are above the "cartwheel" .
    I will draw attention to why Christianity must be planted in Russia! When the Roman pope imposing his religion on the conquered territory, the pope taxes this very territory (country) with such a form of colonial tax as church tithe (which the conquerors actually did - they taxed it - tithe). With the advent of the Golden Horde in Russia, the practice of electing princes ceased, the princes began to inherit the "table". Church tithe is an economic stranglehold on the neck of Russian states.


    The article is controversial. Again, Batu is called a Mongol, although there is proven information that he is a European, and in general Tartaria was called Tataria.
    The purpose of the campaign of Batu, by the way, at the invitation of the Prince of Vladimir, to stop the Catholic invasion of Russia.
    1. Nvalexandr
      Nvalexandr 30 June 2013 08: 43 New
      +3
      I live in Buryatia, I often visit Mongolia. So there, of the old people living in remote areas, no one ever heard from their ancestors that a certain nomad from Mongolia conquered and 300 years "tipped" Great Russia (Russia). Waving their hands and smiling they say that nonsense. Who better than the inhabitants of the steppes to know that it is impossible to cover such distances over the period specified in history by such a number of people (troops) and nowhere to leave records in Old Mongolian, traces, etc. In addition, genetics have long revealed the absence of Mongoloid genes in the blood of Russians in the European part of Russia. Although, as a rule, the conquest of land was accompanied by mass rape. And the “Mongolian” khans and princes gladly took the daughters of Russian princes as wives. The facts are serious! Even Lomonosov was opposed to introducing Scaliger’s ideas into Russian history. Also a fact! In general, those historians who cannot confirm their words with facts, yes because Fomenko and Nosovsky are mathematicians, are opposed to the version of Fomenko and Nosovsky. But unlike the historian, they clearly prove their version.
  • Opera
    Opera 30 June 2013 11: 26 New
    +5
    Quote: Nvalexandr
    So there, of the old people living in remote areas, no one ever heard from their ancestors that a certain nomad from Mongolia conquered and for 300 years "tipped" Great Russia (Russia). Waving their hands and smiling they say that nonsense.

    And the descendants of the great Genghisides in general about this dream are not in spirit. And they know about their former greatness exclusively from us. In Mongolia, there is nothing at all that would even indirectly speak of great conquests. Nothing at all! Likewise, there is NOTHING in Russia! There are monasteries and temples of those times, and there are labels in Russian, but there are NO Mongols! Such a civilization is anomalous - it took and disappeared without leaving anything behind, but also completely removed the historical memory from its descendants!
    And do not, dear, especially stubborn about Lomonosov talk! Lomonosov is not a decree for them! Other historians and scholars, and not only Russians, do not decree them! They would like to consider themselves descendants of the Swedes, so it’s quite logical and it follows that for 300 years the Mongols and Tatars have been the bosses, there wouldn’t be any Mongols ... And Bayer, in all seriousness, led the boyar’s word from a ram! Such people are Romanov’s and invited to write Russian history!
    Any sane person touching this topic at least once in his life asked himself a question - how can it be so for 300 years !!! And nothing! Well, throw 300 years from the present ... it was 1713!
    Is something wrong or is everything normal ?!
    1. Nvalexandr
      Nvalexandr 30 June 2013 18: 39 New
      +1
      good good hi I agree, dear, I agree
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 2 July 2013 21: 28 New
      +2
      Found someone to ask. The Mongolian peoples did not participate in campaigns in the West in the 13th century. Therefore, there are no such memories. But the Turkic peoples will still talk about how his ancestors crushed the whole of Europe like a can. Because it is THEM ancestors walked in the 13th century with Genghis Khan. Any eastern source in Turkic, Mongolian, Chinese, Persian, Arabic contains the names of the clans of the Horde and the names of military leaders, officials and batyrs. All 100% of the names of the clans and personal names are Turkic (in the extreme case, Turkic-Muslim later). Not a single Mongolian clan (Torgaut, Hoshiut, Dürbet, etc.) is mentioned. And only those clans (Naimans, Argyns, Kereis, Jalayirs, Uysuns, Kipchaks, Barlas, Kiyats, etc.) that are still the main part of the largest Turkic peoples are the direct ancestors of Kazakhs (primarily), Nogais, Karakalpaks, Bashkirs , Siberian Tatars, Crimean Tatars (nomadic Crimeans, but not settled), Kazan Tatars (partially, but the bulk of the ancestors of the Kazan Tatars - the Bulgars themselves fell under the pressure of the Horde), Uzbeks (a small part who were “nomadic until the 20th century” Uzbeks ", now they are known as the genus" Kurama "). These peoples still honor Genghis Khan.
      Russians pay very little attention to eastern sources, most of them are unknown to a wide circle of Russian historians, although most of them have long been translated into Russian.
      And all that is said about the customs of the Horde of the 13th century - all this was preserved among the Turkic steppes until the Soviet era. Like the Chingizids themselves, they were the main political party (in the Kazakh steppe, for example) up to the Bolshevik era. Despite the fact that the khanate of the Genghisids was abolished in Kazakhstan in the 19th century, the Genghisides themselves actually controlled the Kazakh lands until 1917 as Russian officials.
      It is useless to ask about the Genghis Khan from the Mongols, Kalmyks or Buryats. Ask Kazakhs, Karakalpaks, Bashkirs, Nogais, Siberian Tatars. They clearly remember that they once made a rustle throughout Eurasia. Moreover, the representatives of these peoples will not simply generalize saying "Kazakhs (Bashkirs) - were the basis of the Horde," but they will specifically say "my kind - Naiman / Kipchak / Argyn / Kerey / Jalayyr - was the basis of Genghis Khan’s fist." And their boasting is fully justified. And ask the Mongol if his family participated in the campaign to the West - the Mongol will say that "generally the Mongols took part in the campaign," but he would not dare to say that his ancestors specifically took part in the conquest of Genghis Khan. Because every steppe knows where what kind was in the Barrens at that time. In the 13th century, the family of modern Mongols was hanging out on the territory of present-day China (Inner Mongolia District). And they did not call themselves Mongols. Their first common ethnonym is "Khalkha" (in Russian, "shield"), which was adopted has already decayed the ashes of Genghis. And the Turkic-steppes bore the name "Mongol" up to the present. And this word was used when they wanted to emphasize continuity from the empire of Genghis Khan ("Mongolstan" / "Mogolistan" / "Mog
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 2 July 2013 21: 30 New
        +1
        In Russia, the Kazakh steppes have not yet been annexed, they calmly wrote that the Kazakhs are direct descendants of the main part of the Horde, and they did not even remember about the Khalkha Mongols. Everything changed in the 18th century, when the Kazakhs became subjects of the Russian Empire - then they instantly stopped writing about the relationship of the Kazakhs with the Horde, for they considered that it was not necessary to caress the ears of foreigners, recalling that once the Russians were under them. Moreover, the Kazakh khans themselves - the descendants of Genghis Khan himself - turned to the Russian tsars from the 18th century as a vassal refers to the overlord. Which overlord will remind you that once it was the other way around? In Russian historiography, the “Kazakhs-Horde” theme has been tritely silenced. But Soviet historiography in general threw the "Horde heritage" to the Khalkha, who never themselves (until the beginning of the 20th century) called themselves particularly Mongols. And the Chinese neighbors called the Mongols (more precisely, the "mange") in general, all the neighbors who lived in the empire of Genghis Khan, and even the Russians were for the Chinese, for example, the 17th century, the Mongols. And even at the beginning of the 20th century, Russia entered the sphere of Lifanyuan (in other words, the “Mongolian department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Qing Empire”).
        For the first time, the word “Mongol” became a unifying ethnonym in 1911, when a revolution took place in modern Mongolia with the hands of Russia and this part of the land declared independence from China (more precisely, the Qing Empire). From that moment, the Khalkha began to call themselves Mongols.
        When the Bolsheviks defeated Mongolia, the Mongols themselves wanted to rename the capital of the state (Urga) to Baatar-hono (Bogatyr-city), but at the congress there was a representative from the Comintern - Kazakh Turar Ryskulov, who apparently did not want the Mongols to at least they were associated with Genghis Khan (for their Bolshevik and Kazakh reasons) and diplomatically proposed renaming the city to Ulan-Baatar (Red Bogatyr). But the mechanism of Mongolization of Genghis Khan had already been launched by that time, and as a result, every Mongol believed that it was they who went to the "Last Sea" in the 13th century, being embarrassed to mention their own ancestors. Mongolian official historiography has turned out of this paradox, building everything on two postulates: 1) Genghis Khan himself - an ethnic Mongol and a point; 2) Of course, there were Turks in the army of Genghis Khan (90%), but there were also Mongols in his army (10%). In addition, the Mongols declared all the largest Kazakh clans of Mongolian (Khalkha) origin, which causes gigantic amazement among the Kazakhs. The Kazakh clans of Naiman, Argyn, Kerey, Jalayır and some others - which are the main part of the Kazakhs - with the light hand of Mongolian and Soviet historians have become monastic Mongols. True, at the same time, the от реч енных мон мон олов Mongols ’never used the Mongolian (Halchas) language and there are no мон Mongolisms’ in culture. They are absolutely identical to the rest of the Kazakh families. This statement is crap because all these clans live in the same place where they lived by the 13th century, and who would Turkize them if they are a 100% majority in their lands? Naiman Kazakhs (the largest Kazakh family) are more numerous than all Mongols in Mongolia. Kazakh naimans live in large numbers in Mongolia among the Mongols, and absolutely do not consider themselves a Khalkha.
        In short, the Romanovs were wise with the “Mongols,” and now that the Russians began to realize that the current Mongols of Mongolia have only a distant relationship with the Hordes of Genghis Khan, they give birth to the wildest theories that there was no Horde invasion.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 2 July 2013 21: 47 New
        +1
        In the first message, part of the text was cut off:
        Their first common ethnonym is "Khalkha" (in Russian, "shield"), which was adopted has already decayed the ashes of Genghis Khan. And the Turkic-steppes bore the name "Mongol" up to the present. And this word was used when they wanted to emphasize continuity from the empire of Genghis Khan ("Mongolstan" / "Mogolistan" / "Mogulstan" / "Mogul
        istan ", and before that," Mongol Ulys "is the" state of a thousand troops "). The word" Mongol "in Mongolian means nothing, and in Kazakh it is literally translated as" a thousand troops "(it is written in the modern Kazakh Cyrillic alphabet" mysol " , pronounced "mngol").
        1. Thunderbolt
          Thunderbolt 2 July 2013 22: 42 New
          0
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Turkic steppes bore the name "Mongol" up to the present.

          haha, 1.) sources 2.) is not dumb? Meng gu --- is the Chinese designation for the Ononayu inhabitants. They stayed that way, go check. Another thing is that many western mud units to the west took western miaain guky yoliomi (this is purely Onon) Onona. And the fact that many people hereby broadcast real could (n) ollam "on the side." They, how unsurprisingly retain their language and customs. Question for backfill: that the Kalmyks forgot in the Volga region and why they are so unusual and Most importantly, in terms of language and archaic, they are either Mongol steppes or a fragment of the Great Tribe. And since we are all here for the truth, then the words in Kazakh wake up: fire, water and air
          1. Thunderbolt
            Thunderbolt 2 July 2013 22: 51 New
            0
            Quote: Thunderbolt
            fire, water and air
            well enlighten how
          2. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 3 July 2013 00: 48 New
            +1
            1) Look at the state of Mogulistan and who lived there. This state has been preserved almost to our days (although in a terribly truncated form in recent centuries).
            2) The Chamber of External Territories (理藩院 Lifanyuan) - the former core of the management system of the Mongol, Oirat and Uyghur vassal princes, the Tibetan clergy and aristocracy and the Turkic-Muslim nobility, as well as responsible for relations with Russia, Central Asian states, etc. The chamber was founded approx. 1634 as the Mongolian government (蒙古 衙門 mengu yamen), in 1638 it received the name that remained until the XX century.
            3) Kalmyks in the Trans-Volga steppe were literally "last night." They have not been there since the 13th century. And they came there from Dzungaria, when the Golden Horde had long since rested in the Bose.
            4) And where are the Kazakh words "fire, water and air"? Do not understand. And in general, I do not quite understand your message. Could it be a little clearer?
            1. Thunderbolt
              Thunderbolt 3 July 2013 01: 46 New
              0
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              I do not quite understand your message. Could it be a little clearer?
              So much clearer laughing 1.)
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              Turkic steppes bore the name "Mongol" up to the present.
              Sources, Sir, but what is stored in libraries (wikis, etc. is not an argument in a scientific dispute 2.) Let's compare the etymology of words that are indigenous to any nation. Do you want to proclaim the great Mongols as Türkits? Well, well, the answer to two simple questions, we'll see hi ))) Z. The Great Genghis Khan was Kazakh? Well, well .. fire, water and air, and then we'll talk.
              1. Thunderbolt
                Thunderbolt 3 July 2013 01: 51 New
                0
                Ah! I forgot one detail, like in Kazakh the word constellation (collection of stars)?
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 3 July 2013 03: 06 New
                  +1
                  Kazakhs called each star and each cluster of stars by their own separate name. In principle, the Kazakhs did not have the word "constellation" (although this can be expressed, of course).
                  The scientific term appeared in the 20th century, and before that, the Kazakhs moved without this term.
                  The Milky Way - "жs Zholy" ("bird's road")
                  North Star - Temirkazyk (iron stick),
                  The constellation Ursa Major - Zhety karaksha (Seven thieves),
                  Leo Constellation - Kambar
                  Pleiades Constellation - Urker
                  Constellation Cassiopeia - Karakurt
                  Venus - Tangsholpan / Sholpan
                  Sirius - Sumbile
                  Moon - Ay
                  Sun - Kun
                  Etc.

                  In short, what an amazing trump card do you want to pull out? I really can’t wait)))
                  1. Beck
                    Beck 3 July 2013 10: 15 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    The Milky Way - "жs Zholy" ("bird's road")
                    North Star - Temirkazyk (iron stick),
                    The constellation Ursa Major - Zhety karaksha (Seven thieves),
                    Leo Constellation - Kambar
                    Pleiades Constellation - Urker
                    Constellation Cassiopeia - Karakurt
                    Venus - Tangsholpan / Sholpan
                    Sirius - Sumbile
                    Moon - Ay
                    Sun - Kun
                    Etc.


                    As I understand it, the opponent Stormbreaker was brought up on the traditions that the Steppe is backwardness and savagery. Therefore, he doesn’t ask questions like that in the hope of stealthily incriminating the Steppe in ancient underdevelopment. And Stormbreaker does not want to admit that universal human culture consists of cultures of all nations. That without a nomadic, steppe culture, universal human culture will be incomplete.
                    1. Beck
                      Beck 3 July 2013 13: 26 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Beck
                      As I understand it


                      I will add. Polar Star - Temirkazyk, more precisely, the translation will be - Iron Kol.

                      The sacred meaning in the steppe was that the whole essence of the world is attached to the Iron Stake and the universe constantly revolves around the Iron Stake per day and cannot leave the limits indicated by this star.

                      By the way, Stormbreaker, Marek satisfied your “curiosity” with subtext by naming Kazakh names of stars and constellations in Kazakh. Could you please satisfy my curiosity. The names of all the above stars sound Europeanized Pleiades, Sirius and beyond. So could you name the same stars in Old Russian in Russian? What were they called in the old days by the Russians?
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny 3 July 2013 14: 22 New
                        0
                        Beck, thanks for adjusting. Yes, the word "count" is better here and the translation has a more correct meaning then. Temirkazyk is driven into the sky like a stake, and not just a stick.
                        And I can also recall the constellation Orion - “Ush arghar” (“Three argali”) and Jupiter - “Yesek kirgan” (“Death of donkeys”).
                        My mother told all kinds of stories about stars in childhood, about thieves who want to steal two horses tied from Temirkazyk, and about how a cow wanted to catch sleeping stars, and they flew away and turned into Urker))) Yes, and my mother’s name too heavenly - "Moon" in translation into Russian.
                        She told some more tales about each star, I don’t remember. He’ll come to visit in a month - I’ll ask her how to tell her again in childhood)

                        It was important for the steppes to know the star map. Therefore, in the steppes of the Kazakhs, no one could get lost. How to get lost if you have free GPS over you?)))
                        And a settled resident can live his life without knowing the stars.
                        "... An abyss of stars has opened up,
                        There are no stars, there is no bottom ... "
              2. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 3 July 2013 02: 46 New
                0
                Quote: Thunderbolt
                Quote: Marek Rozny
                Turkic steppes bore the name "Mongol" up to the present.
                Sources, Sir, but what is stored in libraries (wiki, etc., is not an argument in a scientific dispute

                I told you, look what kind of state it is - Mogolistan / Mogulistan. There you will see who called himself the "Mongol" - the Türks or the Khalkha, who began to call themselves the "Mongol" only after the 1911 revolution. Mogolistan - the Turkic state in which the Turks lived. The name of the country is literally translated as "country of the Mongols." What else do you need?
                Quote: Thunderbolt
                let's compare the etymology of words that are fundamental to any nation. Do you want to proclaim the great Mongols as Türkites? Well, well, the answer to two simple questions, and then we'll see hi))) Z. The great Genghis Khan was Kazakh? Well, well .. fire, water and air, and then we'll talk.

                Damn, write normally in Russian. You get such a mishmash ...
                a) Let's compare the etymology. What are you interested in? fire - "from", water "su", air - "aua", "әуе", "aspan" (meaning "sky"). Only I did not understand what you want to deduce from this?
                b) The father of Genghis Khan is from a subgenus belonging to the genus kiyat, which is part of the Kazakhs. Genghis Khan's mother is of the Naiman kind, which is part of the Kazakhs. His older wife is also from a Kazakh family. The name Shyngys is Turkic (there are several interpretations, but they are all Turkic). His real name is Temirshi (Temirchi, Temurchi) - in Kazakh, "blacksmith", the usual Turkic name. The name "Temujin" is not found either among the Turks or the Mongols. It is taken from Chinese annals, and the Chinese do not have the sound "p" and they remake all foreign names as much as possible in the Chinese manner. Genghis Khan himself was proud of the well-known fact that his clan is famous for its blacksmiths, and that their clan was one of the first to smelting ore. The name with the root "Temir" ("iron") (Temir, Temirshi, Temirzhan, Temirbek, Temirkhan, Khantemir / Kantemir, Baytemir, etc.) is still one of the most common among the Kazakhs. The Turkic names "Timur", "Tamerlan" - from the same place. Ask the Mongol, Kalmyk or Buryat, are there Genghisides among them? In the old days they had a few of them, but now they don’t exist at all. But the Kazakhs send Genghisides at least for export.
                If his name was Lyubomir, his father was Vyatichi, and his mother was from the Krivichi tribe, and all his descendants were part of the modern Russian people and considered themselves Russian, would you still be convinced that he is a “Mongol” Khalkha?
                Genghis Khan was loyal to only one nation - the Turks. And only to the chief at that time Turkic ruler Khorezmshah Muhammad, he proposed an equal union, motivating that the peoples of both rulers are one nation. Neither "before" nor "after" Genghis Khan did not offer anyone equal relations. And in his army he recruited some Türks, while for some reason neglecting the Khalkha, the Chinese, Slavs, Caucasians, who, if they were in the army of Genghis Khan, then played the role of doomed "cannon fodder" to save the Turkic wars. Yes, there were detachments from the Russian wars led by Russian princes in the Horde army, but on the rights of Khiva, policemen and the rest battalions in the Wehrmacht. The main force of the army consisted exclusively of Turkic nomads. If the Mongols-Khalkha were in Kazakhstan, then where is their cultural influence on us?
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 3 July 2013 02: 47 New
                  0
                  We have a bunch of Iranisms, Arabisms in the language, in the last two centuries, words from Russian and European languages ​​have appeared, but there is not a single Mongolism! And this despite the fact that Soviet historiography, along with Mongolian history, argues that more than half of the Kazakhs are monastic Mongols! Kazakhs even have kept Iranian words from the time of the Scythians, but for some reason there are no Mongolian words ... And as some here ask: “where is“ Mongolism ”in Russian culture ?, I ask, and where is“ Mongolism ”in Kazakh culture "? Absolutely everything connected with Genghis Khan, the Horde is Turkic. From A to Z".
                  Even if we suppose that Genghis Khan was a 100% Mongol, what relation do the present Mongols have to him and his conquests, if his army, officials and his direct descendants are the current Kazakhs? If we (Naiman, Argyns, Kereis, Jalaiyrs, Konyrats, Barlas) are “monstrous Mongols”, then what does it mean “Mongols of Mongolia” (Hoshiuts, dyurbets, torgouts), who haven’t eaten a single gram of horse meat beyond the Dzungarian passage and even the West did not see? The Horde invasion left a huge number of Turkic words in the Russian language, and not a single Mongolian!
                  Remember how the Horde in the Caucasus disconnected the Polovtsy Khan Kotyan from the local abreks: the "Tatar-Mongols" told the Polovtsy that there was nothing to shed brotherly blood, that the Horde and Polovtsy were born from the same mother. And the Polovtsy really lowered their weapons, because they saw that they were absolutely the same Türks as they themselves. But the Turk and the Mongol will never tell each other that they are one people. You distinguish a Russian brother from a Portuguese during communication? Who first proclaimed Genghis Khan Khan, lifting him on a white koshma in 1206? Four genera, which are now an integral part of the Kazakhs of the Middle Zhuz. And this is a historical fact. Not a single Khalkha-Mongol clan took part in this ceremony and did not proclaim Temuchin his khan. In Kazakhstan, there is a mausoleum for the son of Chinggis - Jochi (in Kazakh, Zhosha, or rather Zholshy - “traveler”, because he was born on the road, this name “Traveler” is still popular among Kazakhs in different variations). In this mausoleum all the relatives of Genghis Khan and the heads of the clans left their imprints of tamg (coat of arms of clans). And there are only Kazakh tamgas there! Not a single Mongolian! Until now, Kazakhs and Mongols remember what kind of tamga. Where are the Mongol tamgas in the Juchi Mausoleum? Where are these halkhas in Kazakhstan in general? Not a single trace of them. Generally. Until the creation of the Dzungarian state (formed on the fragments of the empire of Genghis Khan), the Kazakhs did not at all face the threat from the Mongol-speaking peoples.
            2. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 3 July 2013 01: 49 New
              +1
              and, by the way, for the Kalmyks. not only did the Kalmyks come to the Volga quite recently, but they still did not take root there, and decided to completely return home to Dzungaria. however, a small part of the Kalmyks did not have time to cross the Volga and got stuck there. they turned into the current Kalmyks (they did not call themselves Kalmyks, it was the Kazakhs called them that, “Kalmak” - literally “the one who stayed”). and the main part of these jungars spread across the Kazakh steppes to the east. Kazakhs exterminated them, and only a small part of these dzungars reached their homeland.
              ps Kazakhs perceived these Dzhungars as the same Dzhungars of the Dzungaria, with which at that time they waged a total war for extermination. This is one and the same people, just some at one time decided to migrate to the Russian Empire, while others remained at home. The Kalmaks survived, and the rest of the jungars were completely destroyed by the Kazakhs and Manchus.
              1. FRIGATE2
                FRIGATE2 3 July 2013 02: 49 New
                +2
                Quote: Marek Rozny
                and, by the way, for the Kalmyks. not only did the Kalmyks come to the Volga quite recently, but they still did not take root there, and decided to completely return home to Dzungaria. however, a small part of the Kalmyks did not have time to cross the Volga and got stuck there. they turned into the current Kalmyks (they did not call themselves Kalmyks, it was the Kazakhs called them that, “Kalmak” - literally “the one who stayed”). and the main part of these jungars spread across the Kazakh steppes to the east. Kazakhs exterminated them, and only a small part of these dzungars reached their homeland.
                ps Kazakhs perceived these Dzhungars as the same Dzhungars of the Dzungaria, with which at that time they waged a total war for extermination. This is one and the same people, just some at one time decided to migrate to the Russian Empire, while others remained at home. The Kalmaks survived, and the rest of the jungars were completely destroyed by the Kazakhs and Manchus.

                Good morning, I wanted to ask you what you think about dietary supplements and about the company of the Chinese Tiens?
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 3 July 2013 03: 14 New
                  +1
                  Quote: FRIGATE2
                  Good morning, I wanted to ask you what you think about dietary supplements and about the company of the Chinese Tiens?

                  I don’t think anything about them. why this question?
                  1. FRIGATE2
                    FRIGATE2 4 July 2013 05: 45 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    I don’t think anything about them. why this question?

                    Yes, they were close to them, I thought these scammers have long been gone, but it turns out
              2. hamster67
                hamster67 31 July 2013 00: 44 New
                0
                Hmmm, here is the REAL Mongol, as he was seen by those who fought with them near Lignitz and who depicted him on the grave under the feet of the late Duke Heinrich the Pious two years later when the monument was ready.
                A real Kazakh ... or even somewhere in Karakalpak ...
                1. Beck
                  Beck 31 July 2013 08: 11 New
                  +1
                  Quote: hamster67
                  A real Kazakh ... or even somewhere in Karakalpak ...


                  What are you kidding about? What do you think the European sculptor sculpted a reliable portrait? It is just a symbol of victory. What do you think the sculptor bothered by the accuracy of the devil?
                  1. hamster67
                    hamster67 2 August 2013 21: 22 New
                    0
                    I ask you to accept an apology if you touched, but on the merits of the question - This is not a symbol of victory, this is a tombstone to the duke who lost the battle, whose head at the peak was shown to the besieged. The tombstone was placed after 2 years, so that all the survivors were alive and would not include fantasy elements in a realistic sculpture.
                    There is no evidence of Bagatura’s Asian campaign, Bel IV does not mention them, only about Rus, wanderers, and Polovtsy. Well, yes, they already knew quite well.
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. The comment was deleted.
  • Setrac
    Setrac 30 June 2013 14: 26 New
    0
    Well, actually this is the result of a discussion on a historical topic, we have historians, but I never received an answer: what such data, disciplines and sciences did such a famous compiler of the chronology as Scaliger or Petavus use? Because they don’t know the answer, they take their word for it, their religion is such - history.
    1. aleshka1987
      aleshka1987 30 June 2013 14: 36 New
      +3
      I liked Lopatin’s book Scaliger Matrix, a criticism of traditional history, nothing more. I began to read Nosovsky-Fomenko, they immediately give their version of events, but their argument is also mildly dubious ... You can’t replace one cranberry with another, just because it looks beautiful. I will be glad to your criticism.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac 30 June 2013 16: 06 New
        0
        Quote: aleshka1987
        You can’t replace one cranberry with another

        Yes, they blundered here, criticizing the traditional history, Fomenko right there, BASED ON THE SAME DATA WHICH HE REFUSES, writes his own version, as invented as the generally accepted one.
        1. aleshka1987
          aleshka1987 30 June 2013 16: 59 New
          0
          As you know, "The battalions of lies guard the truth!" There is an assumption that the goals of Nosovsky-Fomenko are worse than simply cutting down the dough. Their task is to discredit everyone who doubts traditional chronology and history by mixing everyone in one shitty pile. As the saying goes, "You can’t suppress - lead and lead away!"
          1. Thunderbolt
            Thunderbolt 2 July 2013 23: 02 New
            0
            Quote: Setrac
            I never received an answer: what such data, disciplines and sciences did such a famous compiler of chronology use
            The only source --- written chronicles and arch.npodki-everything else --- games of the mind
  • Ross
    Ross 30 June 2013 15: 56 New
    +2
    Quote: Nvalexandr
    I live in Buryatia, I often visit Mongolia. So there, of the old people living in remote areas, no one ever heard from their ancestors that a certain nomad from Mongolia conquered and 300 years "tipped" Great Russia (Russia). Waving their hands and smiling they say that nonsense. Who better than the inhabitants of the steppes to know that it is impossible to cover such distances over the period specified in history by such a number of people (troops) and nowhere to leave records in Old Mongolian, traces, etc. In addition, genetics have long revealed the absence of Mongoloid genes in the blood of Russians in the European part of Russia. Although, as a rule, the conquest of land was accompanied by mass rape. And the “Mongolian” khans and princes gladly took the daughters of Russian princes as wives. The facts are serious! Even Lomonosov was opposed to introducing Scaliger’s ideas into Russian history. Also a fact! In general, those historians who cannot confirm their words with facts, yes because Fomenko and Nosovsky are mathematicians, are opposed to the version of Fomenko and Nosovsky. But unlike the historian, they clearly prove their version.


    It has already been genetically proven that throughout Russia, from Siberia to Moscow, there are fewer Mongoloid genes in Russians than in Europeans! That's all the Mongols with their yoke.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 2 July 2013 21: 42 New
      0
      Quote: Ross
      It has already been genetically proven that throughout Russia, from Siberia to Moscow, there are fewer Mongoloid genes in Russians than in Europeans!

      This statement comes from one obscure study, where they took an incomprehensible selection of people and derived such data. If you take the inhabitants of Novgorod, Arkhangelsk or Minsk - there really can’t be any “Horde” blood there. But if you scratch the Russians of the Urals, Siberia, Cossacks, and the inhabitants of the steppe part of Ukraine, then there will be "Tatarschina" clear water for everyone.
      Quote: Ross
      there are fewer Mongoloid genes in Russians than in Europeans!

      If there was no “Tatar-Mongol”, then where did the Europeans get their genes from?))) And they are found not only among Hungarians, but also among Poles) Moreover, Poles are not even shy about recognizing “Tatar” blood in their gentry. A lot of Horde residents settled on the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 2 July 2013 22: 01 New
        0
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        This statement comes from one obscure study, where they took an incomprehensible selection of people and derived such data. If you take the inhabitants of Novgorod, Arkhangelsk or Minsk - there really can’t be any “Horde” blood there. But if you scratch the Russians of the Urals, Siberia, Cossacks, and the inhabitants of the steppe part of Ukraine, then there will be "Tatarschina" clear water for everyone.

        You have recorded the Tatars in the Mongoloids? Original.


        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Moreover, the Poles are not even shy about recognizing "Tatar" blood in their gentry. A lot of Horde residents settled on the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

        Poles are not particularly relevant to ON. More truly, no.
        "a lot of Tatars on" is depending on whom to compare. If with blacks, then yes, if with Jews, then much less. You should not even compare with local ones. Sticky yes karaite. These names say little to Belarusians and Lithuanians. And this is the name of the Tatar communities, which consisted of Tatars who were hired by the ON.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 3 July 2013 01: 26 New
          0
          Tatars, like most other Turks, belong to the South Siberian (Turanian) race. The Türks are not Caucasians, nor Mongoloids, although there are various phenotypes close to both poles. The South Siberian race itself is a transitional race between Caucasians and Mongoloids. There are Kazan Tatars with a pronounced Mongoloidity, there are Kazakhs with a pronounced Caucasoid. I always distinguish a Tatar from a Slav. Even if he is Russified and Orthodox.

          About the Poles and ON - there I have different in meaning proposals. On the territory of modern Poland, the Horde have noticeably influenced the noble system. There dofiga "Tatar" clans in the gentry.
          In Belarus and Lithuania, the "Tatars" were serviceful, very simple. They did not have “show-offs” like those of the Murza, whom there were in abundance among the Poles. And if the catholic Tatars in Poland up to the 20th century retained their cultural peculiarity and memories of the Tatar origin, then those that were in Lithuania and Belarus by the 20th century absolutely assimilated among the local population. Now the presence of the Horde is imperceptible there, and several centuries ago everyone knew about them. And now the remnants of the "Tatars" do not even know a single word in Tatar. Fully integrated into the local peoples, as the Finno-Ugric people in the Russian.
          And the Poles even at the time of World War II had "Tatar" squadrons in the army. Among the oppressed Horde people there are indeed those clans that were considered respected among the steppes. The clan of kiyat, for example (the clan of Genghis Khan, Mamai, Glinsky came out of this clan). Kiyats, by the way, did not pay taxes in any state that belonged to the Horde. When in the Russian Empire all the nobles were obliged to pay taxes, in my opinion, only the Glinsky said that they had not paid anything to anyone since the time of Chinggis, and voluntarily refused the noble rank. Well, that’s already by the way.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 3 July 2013 10: 28 New
            0
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Tatars, like most other Turks, belong to the South Siberian (Turanian) race. The Türks are not Caucasians, nor Mongoloids, although there are various phenotypes close to both poles. The South Siberian race itself is a transitional race between Caucasians and Mongoloids. There are Kazan Tatars with a pronounced Mongoloidity, there are Kazakhs with a pronounced Caucasoid.

            E1b1b = 2,4; N2 = 4,8; N1 = 18,3; R1a = 34,1; R1b = 8,7; I1 = 0,8; I2 = 2,4; J2 = 10,5. Mongoloid haplogroups C and Q amount to about 5%. These are the facts. Everything else is water.

            Quote: Marek Rozny
            About the Poles and ON - there I have different in meaning proposals. On the territory of modern Poland, the Horde have noticeably influenced the noble system. There dofiga "Tatar" clans in the gentry.

            Just do not confuse ON and Poland. These are different states, and even when they were united into a confederation called the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, a demarcation between them continued up to customs posts on the border. The Confederation turned into a single state right in time for its first section.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 3 July 2013 11: 33 New
              0
              Quote: Spade
              E1b1b = 2,4; N2 = 4,8; N1 = 18,3; R1a = 34,1; R1b = 8,7; I1 = 0,8; I2 = 2,4; J2 = 10,5. Mongoloid haplogroups C and Q amount to about 5%.

              Haplogroups and phenotype are practically unrelated. The Kyrgyz and Altai people look more Mongolian than Kazakhs on their faces, and their dominant haplogroup is like the Russians R1a.
              I am from the Argyn kind, and although not a pronounced Mongoloid, but nevertheless an almost typical Kazakh cheeky muzzle. And in the haplogroup - G1 (the same haplogroup in the Terek Cossacks, in one Ossetian clan and in Iran is a bit met). In addition, there are argyns R1b. The Kazakh-Argyns have no other haplogroups (and this is the second largest genus among the Kazakhs; and until the 30s of the 20th century, it was the largest among the Kazakhs) Kazakh Kipchaks from the Middle Zhuz (aka "Polovtsy") have a haplogroup R1a . Etc.
              In the Türks, the “Mongolian” haplogroups C and Q are not dominant. These haplogroups are found in eastern Kazakhs.
              Quote: Spade
              Just do not confuse ON and Poland.

              Damn, I do not confuse. I said that these are two different sentences. "There were many prominent Jewish cultural figures in Russia. Many Jews settled in Kazakhstan." Do you understand me? Although it was necessary to enter some additional word in the second sentence, for example, "ON also many Tatars settled. "
          2. Setrac
            Setrac 3 July 2013 22: 31 New
            0
            With the Tatars, it is not clear where the natural massif (country, geographical unit) of the Tatars is located - from which the self-name of the "Tatars" came from?
  • Sour
    Sour 30 June 2013 17: 41 New
    0
    Quote: Nvalexandr
    But unlike the historian, they clearly prove their version.

    An intelligible explanation is not a proof of the truth.
    At one time, people clearly explained that the Earth is flat.
    Fomenko is clearly worth a lot of money. Someone wants to deprive our people of history by slipping him a pseudo-story. Fomenkovshchina littered with shelves of bookstores. His writings were published in tens of thousands of copies. Published as a gift, with color pictures and glossy covers. At the same time, serious historical literature is not available. All the signs that Fomenkovism is simply being imposed on the people, like drug dealers are imposing a drug.
    One hundred percent that Fomenko himself does not believe in his writings. He simply cuts the loot, rows it with a shovel and grins at those who consider him a historian.
    1. Setrac
      Setrac 30 June 2013 19: 37 New
      -2
      Quote: Sour
      An intelligible explanation is not a proof of the truth.
      At one time, people clearly explained that the Earth is flat.

      This is about a traditional story. The knowledge that the Earth was flat was in line with generally accepted science.
      Quote: Sour
      Someone wants to deprive our people of history by slipping him a pseudo-story.

      They change one deception for another, the truth is neither there nor there.
    2. alebor
      alebor 1 July 2013 12: 42 New
      -1
      There is a famous phrase, usually attributed to Goebbels: "The more monstrous the lie, the sooner they will believe in it." To paraphrase it, we can say: "The more fantastic the fiction, the more difficult it is to refute it."
      If, for example, there is a “scientist” who made a “discovery” that Genghis Khan was an alien, possessing an alien super knowledge and super ability to fight, then how can a normal historian refute this fact? No way. There are no documents proving that Genghis Khan is not an alien who arrived from Alpha Centauri. Evidence from the Mongolian hospital, where the future conqueror was born, or from the registry office, alas, has not been preserved.
      So Fomenkovtsy shuffle history as a pack of cards, find similar historical events, similar historical characters and, on the basis of very superficial similarities, declare them identical, construct some kind of their own, bizarre story. And, of course, there are many fans to read these fascinating "fantasy".
      1. Opera
        Opera 2 July 2013 12: 26 New
        +1
        Quote: alebor
        Evidence from the Mongolian hospital, where the future conqueror was born, or from the registry office, alas, has not been preserved.

        Wow! Sorry!laughing And what is generally preserved from the great Mongol empire ?! Or are the aliens working here under the leadership of Fomenko and Nosovsky ?!
  • Nayhas
    Nayhas 30 June 2013 19: 53 New
    0
    Fomenkovtsy attack! Cool down already, think with your head, not with the brains of the lunatics!
    1. aleshka1987
      aleshka1987 30 June 2013 20: 28 New
      +2
      Here is the result! I wrote about this above, the work of the Nosovsky-Fomenko pests is obvious! Now, if a person somewhere casts doubt on the official version of history, then they hang the label of a Fomenkovets on him and shout: "Get out of here holy fool!" Cunning, yeah ...
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 30 June 2013 21: 04 New
      +2
      Quote: Nayhas
      Fomenkovtsy attack! Cool down already, think with your head, not with the brains of the lunatics!

      Then call us "Lomonosovites", he also rejected the chronology of Scaliger and the history of Russia written by the Germans. And even one such "historian" broke his nose.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 3 July 2013 20: 11 New
        0
        Lomonosov did not reject the existing chronology. He was an opponent of the Norman theory of the origin of Russian statehood. That's all. Well, the complexes he had before the Germans. He wanted to say that there were no German-speaking Vikings in Russia, they say, we ourselves were with a mustache.
        And about the chronology, he did not even speak. So do not fit it into your supporters.
        1. Setrac
          Setrac 3 July 2013 22: 34 New
          0
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Well, the complexes he had before the Germans.

          Isaac Newton also had complexes? Or do you have only Russian such "notorious"? Something more substantial than the nonexistent complexes you have?
  • radio operator
    radio operator 1 July 2013 07: 46 New
    0
    Only the Church remained the stronghold of the Russian people. A church that was not touched by the Mongols, which "even the gates of hell cannot overcome."

    This expression is true to this day.
    Not without reason for the liberals of the Russian Orthodox Church - the goal number 1.
    1. Andrew-001
      Andrew-001 2 July 2013 20: 25 New
      0
      I am not a liberal, but CJSC "ROC" for what to love - I do not see point-blank. Although the head office of this company in Moscow is very beautiful. The truth is built for some reason at public expense.
      1. Slav
        Slav 21 July 2013 11: 16 New
        0
        Quote: Andrew-001
        I am not a liberal, but CJSC "ROC" for what to love - I do not see point-blank.

        So all liberal thought begins with this.
  • Opera
    Opera 1 July 2013 11: 34 New
    +1
    Quote: Sour
    Fomenko is clearly worth a lot of money. Someone wants to deprive our people of history by slipping him a pseudo-story. Fomenkovshchina littered with shelves of bookstores. His writings were published in tens of thousands of copies. Published as a gift, with color pictures and glossy covers. At the same time, serious historical literature is not available

    Well, so tell me where to buy their books. With difficulty I bought one in Yalta, in Moscow I was looking for, St. Petersburg ...
    Thought movie discs can be bought - no! Available online only!
    The book by the way published just very. Can not be compared with the "serious historical literature" which for some reason you can not get! To avoid unnecessary advertising, write to me in a personal where I can purchase beautifully published books by Fomenko and Nosovsky, and I will tell you where to buy historical literature that is serious in your opinion!
  • Opera
    Opera 1 July 2013 11: 58 New
    +2
    And here I have one question - so why are Fomenko and Nosovsky so terrible ?! These are the only accusations against them that have never been heard! There was even an article on this resource stating that they were scamming the affairs of our ancestors! It is not strange at the same time that they are accused of accusations of Russian nationalism, etc. In the discussion of this article, they are generally compared with hucksters and the plague of drug addiction !!!!!
    Well, fear God, gentlemen and comrades, well, where and where did you get this. Thanks to many years of work, scientists presented to the scientific world a new chronology, quite justified! All that they call for further impartial research and scientific discussion! What is the answer ?! And in response, Academician Rybakov throws their books out of the window of the student audience! (Such an intellectual). By the way, he wrote slander to them back when the USSR was still in his opinion - the research of scientists contradicted the works of Marxism of Leninism in this direction!
    The Communists, however, were not stupid, and didn’t begin to cover the activities of Fomenko, they even allowed to print in special publications and continue to work!
    So here. ladies and gentlemen, fishermen, be already intelligent people, and before you groan so that you don’t pass for foolishness by ignorance, take the trouble to really get acquainted with the subject of okhali! Maybe you will have interesting arguments! And then after all, you can blame treason so soon! Already addicted to drug addiction! What historical parallels in this connection do not come up in memory ?!