Khans and Sarai Diocese

90
In the relations between the Golden Horde and the Russian principalities in the XII – XIV centuries, the religious factor played an important role. This is a rather obscure topic for the general public and is waiting for more conscientious researchers. Judging by the available chronicle sources, the testimony of Catholic monks and Arab travelers of the time, the Chingisids who came to Russia were notable for their tolerance.

Thus, the Franciscan monk Guillaume de Rubruk, a member of the French embassy to the great Khan Munke (1253) wrote to King Louis the Holy: "Let your majesty know about the city of Karakorum ... There are 12 temples of various nations, 2 mosques in which proclaim the law of Muhammad, and the Christian church on the edge of the city. "

The Orthodox Church of Batu and the subsequent rulers of the Juchi Ulus (Golden Horde) treated very favorably. In 1261, the Metropolitan Kirill of Kiev, at the request of the Grand Duke of Vladimir Alexander Nevsky and with the permission of Khan Berke, in Sarai-Batu, the Sarai diocese was established in the capital of the Golden Horde. The first bishop of Sarai was St. Mitrofan, who also managed the Pereyaslav Diocese.

One of the most profound researchers of the Sarai diocese is the historian and Orthodox publicist Vladimir Makhnach, whose works shed light on this page. stories Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church. His vision of those events is as follows.

ORTHODOX The diocese in the capital of the Horde, Sarai, three centuries later transferred to Krutitsy (now the Tagansky district of Moscow. - Ed.), was established in 1261 year. Many authors point out the most numerous reasons for founding a new department. Firstly, the number of Russians in the Horde in the 1250s increased. It was already about the frequent visits to the Khan's residence by the Russian princes with their entourage, merchants, and various embassies. The princes kept their yards with servants in Saray. Many of these Russians, willy-nilly or not, spent years in the Horde.

Secondly, by this time the Horde power had already fully established relations with the clergy, who were in a privileged position compared to the rest of the Russian population, and probably did not oppose the desire of the Russian clergy to strengthen their influence in the vast new territory.

Thirdly, in the Horde lands, especially along the Don, there lived rodents - Christianized descendants of the Khazars and the ancestors of the Don Cossacks.

Fourthly, the khan's power attached special importance to the bishop of Sarai in the relations of the Horde with Byzantium. It was hardly a coincidence that the foundation of the pulpit in the very year of 1261, when Mikhail Paleologue threw the crusaders out of Constantinople, restoring the Orthodox capital. A chronicle certificate is known about the return of Theognostos, the second bishop of Sarai, in 1279, “from Greek, sent by a beater of the metropolitan to the patriarch and Tsar Mengutemer to the king of the Greek Palaeologus”.

The Russian princes and the higher clergy, apparently, received information from the Sarai bishop about the situation in the headquarters, about the Khan’s attitude to this or that of the Russian princes. To some extent, the bishop could influence this relationship.

With all the knowledge of the question, a strange situation is striking when historians are primarily interested in what the Saray department of the Horde was useful for, not the Russians, not the Byzantine Empire, not the Universal Orthodox Church. In the end, it was not the Horde who established a diocese!

WAS MORE ONE the most serious reason for the desire of the Russian clergy to increase influence in the Horde: the struggle against Roman Catholicism, which from the thirteenth century constantly increased the pressure on the East. With the establishment of the Horde government in Russia in Rome, it was considered that it was now possible to spread papism among the Russians with the help of the Horde, and among the Horde themselves, perhaps with the help of ours. The goal was also pursued to attract the steppe inhabitants to the struggle against the Seljuk Turks, the Nicene (Byzantine) Empire, and the German Emperor Frederick II Hohenstaufen.

This pressure was carried out with the help of missionaries, most often Franciscans and Dominicans, whom the pope, having supplied with messages, were sent to Russia and to the Horde in the XIII and XIV centuries. Such of them, as John Plano Karpini, Guillaume Rubruck, Julian, we owe the most interesting testimonies about the countries where they visited, but they were not sent at all with educational purposes.

Their reports were sometimes even false in describing their own missionary successes. Thus, the Hungarian Dominican monk Julian in 1235 reported the words that the prince of great Laudameria (Vladimir-Suzdal principality said - Ed.) Said: "... After all, the time is close when we all must accept the faith of the Roman church and submit to its authority" .

It is interesting to note that even in the 1233 bulle of the year, Pope Gregory IX gave indulgence to all Dominicans who went to Russia, forgiving them such sins as the arson and murder of a cleric; they were also given the right to let go of these sins themselves. In a number of messages starting from the 13th century, the popes called on the Russian princes to renounce "their own delusions," that is, Orthodoxy.

GEOPOLITICAL The situation in the XIII century was the hardest in the whole of Russian history. Russia could not protect itself from the invasion of the Mongol horde. A number of the most important cities were devastated, the fear of the steppe walks made the movement of merchant caravans impossible. In the 12th century, the Great Dnieper transit route “from the Varangians to the Greeks” dried up. In addition, the western border was hostile, and the surviving cities of the North-West - Novgorod, Pskov, Polotsk, Smolensk - sought to reorient their trade to the Baltic Sea, having lost the Russian market.

The decline of trade encouraged the decline of craft and vice versa, which forms a vicious circle. The fall of the order under the influence of the socio-psychological shock was monstrous: the richest Novgorod that was not ruined by anybody for about 60 did not lead stone construction for years.

Cut off by the Great Schism (church split in 1054, which led to the division of Christianity into the Roman Catholic Church in the West and the Orthodox - in the East with the center in Constantinople. - Ed.), The West became completely alien after the devastation of Constantinople in 1204 year. The Byzantine Empire, having survived the six-century onslaught of Islam, fell under the treacherous blows of the crusaders. Between Russia and the Black Sea instead of "their nasty" - Torks, Berendeys, Polovtsy - there was a Horde. Cultural isolation and economic decline entailed the loss of influence of cities and city monasteries.

Only the Church remained the stronghold of the Russian people. A church that was not touched by the Mongols, which "even the gates of hell cannot overcome."

RELIGIOUS CULTURAL Tolerance Mongol amazed contemporaries. Khan's labels exempted the clergy from all kinds of tribute, all obligations in favor of the khan. “This letter is seen and heard from the priests and Chernets neither tributes, nor anything else they want, nor take Baskats, princes scribes, popluzhniki, customs, and take the Yen to apologize and die” (from the label Mengu-Timur 1267) .

Labels protect lands, waters, gardens, gardens, mills belonging to the clergy. Church houses are exempted from standing. For the insult of churches, the blasphemy of faith, the destruction of church property (books, etc.) relied on the death penalty. The Taydul 1347 label of the year directly appeals to the Russian princes to support all these privileges of the church.

It seems appropriate to note that the Russian land, having recovered from the first shock, could resist. In 110, thousands of warriors estimate historians the strength of the united principalities in the thirteenth century. This is obviously more than the forces of Batuyev Ulus. But Russia fought in the West. Poles, Hungarians, Swedes and an incomparably more dangerous Teutonic Order - these are terrible uncompromising enemies.

Brilliant analysis L.N. Gumilyov leaves no doubt that Russia could win at the cost of an alliance with the papacy, at the cost of exaggeration and feudalization. At the price that Prince Daniel Galitsky refused to pay in the end, which the blessed Prince Alexander Nevsky and Metropolitan Kirill decisively rejected.

Moreover, the position in the Horde and in the headquarters of the Great Khan was distinguished by exceptional instability and even yielded to Russian influence. During the campaign, Batu fell out with his cousins, Guyuk, the son of the great Khan Ogedei, and Buri, the son of the great guardian of Yasy, Chagatai.

“Fathers took the side of Batu and punished their impudent sons with disgrace,” wrote L.N. Gumilev, but when Udegei died in 1241, and power fell into the hands of Guyuk's mother, Khansha Turakina, Guyuk and Buri's squads were recalled - and poor Baty turned out to be the ruler of a huge country, having only four thousand faithful warriors with over-tensioned relations with the central government. There was no question of forcible retention of the conquered territories. Return to Mongolia meant a more or less cruel death. And here Batu, a stupid and far-sighted man, began a policy of flirting with his subjects, in particular with the Russian princes Yaroslav Vsevolodich and his son Alexander. Their lands were not subject to tribute. ”

But Guyuk was not good. Mongolian veterans, companions of his grandfather, and Nestorians associated with Tolui’s children came out against him. Although in 1246, Guyuk was proclaimed the Great Khan, but he had no real support. Guyuk tried to find her in the same place where his enemy, Baty, was among the Orthodox population of the conquered countries. He invited “priests from Sham (Syria), Rum (Byzantium), Wasps and Russia” to him and proclaimed a program acceptable to these peoples, a campaign in the Latin West.

MISSION Plano Carpini was officially to convey to the Great Khan an offer to adopt Roman Catholicism. With regard to the Mongolian power, these plans at that stage were hopeless: Khan Guyuk’s letter to Pope Innocent IV remained, where the Khan, threatening with invasion, demanded complete submission. “From here, know for the right thing,” Guillah Rubruk informed the French king in 1253, “that they are very far from the faith, as a result of this opinion, which was strengthened among them, thanks to the Russians, whose number is very large among them.”

At the beginning of 1248, Guyuk died suddenly or was poisoned. Baty, who gained the superiority of forces, entrusted the son of Tolui, Munke, the leader of the Nestorian party, to the throne, and supporters of Guyuk were executed in 1251 year.

OUR REFERENCE. Nestorianism is a teaching traditionally attributed to Nestorius, Archbishop of Constantinople (428 — 431) and condemned as a heresy at the Ephesian (Third Ecumenical) Council in 431. The only Christian church practicing this doctrine is the Assyrian Church of the East. In fact, Nestorianism arose long before Nestorius, being a teaching of the Antioch theological school.

After the conquest of Russia, Batu and Batu's quarrels with the heir to the throne, Guyuk (1241), Russian affairs in the Golden Horde were headed by Sartak, the son of Batu. Christian sympathies of Sartak were widely known, and there is even evidence that he was baptized, of course, according to the Nestorian rite. However, Sartak did not favor Roman Catholics and Orthodox, making an exception only for his friend and brother - Alexander Yaroslavich.

This situation continued until the death of Sartak in 1256, after which Khan Berke (the younger brother of Khan Batu. - Ed.) Converted to Islam, but he tried to establish a diocese of the Orthodox Church in Sarai in 1261 and favored the Orthodox, relying on them in the war with the Persians Ilkhans, patrons of Nestorianism (the rulers of the state of Hulaguid wore the title of Ilkhan, the founder of this dynasty was Hulagu, the younger brother of Mongke. - Ed.)

From this very moment, the Nestorian problem becomes irrelevant for the Russians, and the Orthodox counter mission is directed primarily against the Latins.

AMAZINGHowever, as all historians refuse to notice another reason for the establishment of a department in Sarai, in our opinion, the most important one is the organization of a broad mission among Horde people.

N.M. Karamzin attributed the idea of ​​establishing a department in Saray to Alexander Nevsky, Metropolitan Macarius (Bulgakov) and E.E. Golubinsky - Metropolitan Kirill. Both of them, no doubt, knew that the Polovtsian threat ended with the baptism of many and many Polovtsy. The facts are known: Polovtsian Khan Amurat was baptized in Ryazan in 1132, Aydar - in Kiev in 1168, Bastia - in 1223, entering into an alliance with the Russians against the Mongols; from the Orthodox Polovtsy consisted of a whole wing of the troops of King David the Builder in the Didgor Battle (occurred in 1121 between the troops of the Georgian kingdom and the Seljuks army. - Ed.); Polovtsians who migrated to Hungary were Orthodox. It should be remembered that the Mongol invasion itself Russia brought on, standing up for the Polovtsian friends.

Infinitely much was written about Alexander Nevsky, but, perhaps, undeservedly little - about Metropolitan Kirill, shielded from us by the bright images of the great Saints of Moscow. Meanwhile, this lord occupied the primacy department from 1243 to 1280 years, that is, longer than anyone ever. He opened three new dioceses: Kholmskaya - in 1250 year, Sarai - in 1261 year and Tverskaya - about 1271 year.

It was Metropolitan Kirill who reached agreement between the princes Alexander Nevsky and Daniel Galitsky, between Alexander Nevsky and his brother Andrey. He convened the Vladimir Local Council 1274 of the year. He spent the last journey of Saint Prince Alexander, saying over his coffin the words that had become immortal: "The sun of Suzdal has already gone down."
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  1. -1
    29 June 2013 09: 07
    And again, the conquering shepherds "conquer the world." It is necessary to force all historians to study mathematics, physics, logistics. And tell me where is this very Barn?
    In fact, we have what? The Golden Horde planted Christianity in Russia, and here they are trying to convince us that nomad shepherds came to Russia to establish Christianity, but this is nonsense!
    The version looks much more natural that the invasion of the Golden Horde is an invasion from the west of the crusaders, especially since the Golden Order existed in Europe, and these same crusaders planted Christianity, destroying those who disagree, and those who disagree - all adults - everyone who is above the "wheel of the cart" ...
    Let me focus on why it is necessary to plant Christianity in Russia! Imposing his religion on the conquered territory, the Pope levies this very territory (country) with such a form of colonial tax as church tithe (which is exactly what the conquerors did - they taxed it - with tithe). With the advent of the Golden Horde in Russia, the practice of electing princes ceased, the princes began to inherit the "table". Church tithe is an economic stranglehold around the neck of the Russian states.
    1. +11
      29 June 2013 14: 24
      Church tithe is an economic stranglehold on the neck of Russian states.


      And you know what taxes are now. 10% is a dream, not a noose.
      Do you know what tribute we are paying now simply because of the arrangement of the financial and banking system? 10% is a dream, not a noose.
      1. -2
        29 June 2013 14: 54
        Quote: Ivan_Ivanov
        And you know what taxes are now. 10% is a dream, not a noose.
        Do you know what tribute we are paying now simply because of the arrangement of the financial and banking system? 10% is a dream, not a noose.

        This is in addition to other taxes, so it's still a noose.
    2. -5
      30 June 2013 08: 23
      hi Check out the works on the new chronology of the history of our scientists Nosovsky and Fomenko. There it is quite intelligible, according to the facts, everything is described and told, and shown. Who are the Russians, who are the Mongols, Batu, Mamai, Genghis Khan, Prince Dmitry, etc., what is the Golden Horde. It is very interesting and really makes you think, and you understand why now such a gimp in a geopolitical setting hi
  2. Beck
    +12
    29 June 2013 09: 18
    Finally, objective lighting. And then the churches were desecrated, and the priests were tormented, and the icons were destroyed. Under the Horde, church lands were not taxed, clergy were inviolable, there was an intra-church court, the decisions of which could not be quashed even by the khan, and if the khan could not, then the princes even more so.

    And such an attitude of the khans to any religion comes from Genghis Khan Yasa - steppe law enforcement.

    The main task of Yasa was to ensure peace and order in society and the state.
    Yasa prescribes “first, to love one another; secondly, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not be a traitor; to honor the elders and the poor, and if there is someone between them who violates these commandments, those who are to be put to death. ”

    Yasa has a section dealing with crimes against religion, morality, and established customs.

    Such are recognized - Oppression of ANY OF THE CHURCHES AND THE Clergy EXISTING IN THE WORLD, INSURANCE OF THE RITUALIST CHARACTER, intentional lie, adultery, debauchery.
  3. Che
    Che
    0
    29 June 2013 09: 30
    There was no Mongol invasion, the internal dismantling of Great Tartary. Therefore, the West also sought to disunite the peoples who inhabited these territories. Hence the entry of ambassadors and envoys to these lands.
    1. +2
      29 June 2013 09: 35
      Quote: Che
      There was no Mongol invasion, the internal dismantling of Great Tartary. Therefore, the West also sought to disunite the peoples who inhabited these territories. Hence the entry of ambassadors and envoys to these lands.

      I advise you to read the book "Memory" by Vladimir Chivilikhin before making such statements. This journalist shocked me with his analytics back in the 80s.
    2. FRIGATE2
      +2
      29 June 2013 11: 05
      Quote: Che
      There was no Mongol invasion, the internal dismantling of Great Tartary. Therefore, the West also sought to disunite the peoples who inhabited these territories. Hence the entry of ambassadors and envoys to these lands.

      Oh, how much nonsense is in your head and you believe all kinds of fiction from Fomenko
      1. -2
        30 June 2013 08: 27
        negative Fomenko just relies on the facts, and not on the fiction of the stoned geyropeyts Scaliger
    3. -4
      30 June 2013 08: 25
      good good good Here are the golden words !!!!!
      1. Dim Dim
        +2
        30 June 2013 10: 40
        All that Fomenko says is nonsense. He denies completely obvious things, such as the methods of scientific dating of archaeological sites. Or, in your opinion, all archeologists, especially before excavation, pour a multimeter cultural layer on top and change the isotopic composition (I wonder what kind of radiation is irradiated with?) In order to give the findings the required age-related indicators.
        1. +2
          30 June 2013 14: 16
          Quote: DimDim
          All that Fomenko says is nonsense.

          Fomenko is a mathematician, for this historians hate him, he is smarter than all historians combined. And mathematics is an exact science, unlike pseudoscience, history. The shortcomings of scientific methods are described in detail by Fomenko, but it doesn’t matter, answer yourself, what kind of scientific methods in the 17th and 18th centuries Scaliger and Petavus possessed when writing their chronology - Kabbalah, numerology, astrology.
        2. 0
          30 June 2013 14: 21
          Quote: DimDim
          isotopic composition (I wonder what kind of radiation is irradiated?),

          Determination of age by the concentration of carbon isotope is actually the main "scientific" method of historians. The idea itself is not bad, but it has a system error, the concentration of the carbon isotope in the atmosphere is taken as a constant, but in fact it is not, it is a variable parameter and depends on many parameters.
          1. Dim Dim
            +3
            30 June 2013 21: 47
            The concentration is measured not in the atmosphere, but inside an existing object. The half-life, the physical constant for each isotope does not change with time. From the moment of the death of a living organism, or the time it took to make a wooden or other object containing plant carbon C14, its exchange with the environment ceases and then its cosmicity decreases by half according to the law of half-life every 5700 years, being replaced by products of this decay. Only completely ignorant people, such as those who claimed that the Earth is polar, because no one is falling from it, can deny this. Let historians deal with history, and let mathematicians solve equations, but they must remember that solutions that contradict the physical meaning are not answers. And if mathematics has not grown together, then we need wipers.
            1. -2
              30 June 2013 22: 11
              Quote: DimDim
              The concentration is measured not in the atmosphere, but inside an existing object.

              The initial content of the isotope in the atmosphere and inside the object is not a constant
              Quote: DimDim
              Only completely ignorant people, such as those who claimed that the Earth is polar, because no one is falling from it, can deny this.
              1. Volkhov
                +1
                1 July 2013 00: 32
                Any cometary explosion like Chelyabinsk adds to the surface of C14 and dating may not work at all, as in Alaska.
        3. +1
          30 June 2013 18: 33
          negative just by the methods used by historians to determine the age of their "finds", it is impossible to reliably accurately determine. Our historians have put Scaliger's ideas in the tower, which is the type of TRUE. Our historians rely only on this long-term grinding. We can already have enough in the mouth to watch these geyropeytsam, with their fictional history. Example: the so-called historians decided to determine which of the pharaohs belongs to the construction of one of the pyramids. We started to "pick" ... They digged a figurine of such a pharaoh, and Hurray for the whole world - a pyramid was built in honor of this pharaoh. But again, the FACTS were not taken into account, namely, that the statuette was buried in this pyramid upside down !!! This is a sign of disrespect, disregard for the pharaoh, victory over him. And who defeated him ??? Well, hi with him ... It's also easier ... We must already learn to build a theory according to the facts, and not to adjust the facts to the crazy Scaligerian version.
    4. Beck
      +2
      1 July 2013 12: 18
      Quote: Che
      There was no Mongol invasion, the internal dismantling of Great Tartary.


      What was it? There was no battle at Kalka or it was Ryazans, there, against Novgorod, stood wall to wall. And they burned Kiev, or something Smolensk? And on the Kulikovo field, what, Muscovites arranged a showdown between themselves? And why were Rusichs in those days bore the names of Batu, Borondai, Dzhanibek, Nogai, Mamai, etc.?

      And why only because of the great-power vanity the jingoistic patriots will not invent. This is a story. And the history of Russia itself, which is Great, otherwise the Rusich would not have built such a state as it is. And after a thousand years, Uroshniki, with more than one, due to defeat at Kalka, pour a plentiful tear.

      Kazakhstan has been fighting the Dzungars for a hundred years. He suffered defeats and celebrated victories. But we do not shed tears, we perceive everything as inevitably happened. And we do not change the Dzungars to other Kazakh tribes.

      Why is great-power chauvinism bad? This is because it only reserves the right to history, only itself is exalted above other peoples, only see the future of mankind in itself, only consider themselves bearers of the spiritual, recognize only their culture, not understanding that the culture of every nation, whatever it may be in terms of level, it is ONLY a part of the whole human culture.
  4. Pamir210
    +13
    29 June 2013 09: 39
    Quote: Setrac
    The version that the invasion of the Golden Horde is an invasion from the west of the crusaders looks much more natural

    this "version" looks much more ridiculous.
  5. -10
    29 June 2013 09: 49
    Quote: Pamir210
    this "version" looks much more ridiculous.

    Your words are just rubbish (a statement as categorical as yours).
    1. Pamir210
      +2
      29 June 2013 11: 35
      Nonsense is just your cue.
      There is no point in arguing.
      You still write the Mongols in the crusaders)
      1. -3
        29 June 2013 12: 11
        Quote: Pamir210
        You still write the Mongols in the crusaders)

        These are your speculations.
        Quote: Pamir210
        Nonsense is just your cue.

        I will explain, since you are so dull.
        Your cue.
        Quote: Pamir210
        this "version" looks much more ridiculous.
        pointless like mine
        Quote: Setrac
        Your words are just rubbish

        Explain where I'm wrong, where I cheated or lied?
        There was no forced Christianization? Or were there no unprincipled benefits for the Christian church? Was there no church tithe? There were no executions for the denial of Christianity? Just like now they are planting in Europe for denying the Holocaust, a familiar handwriting. You do not believe the facts, but you believe the speculations of historians about the four thousand shepherds who enslaved half the world.
        Give a clear answer and not "Baba Yaga is against."
        1. Pamir210
          +2
          29 June 2013 12: 19
          Since you are so slow-witted, I explain what your words were about.
          "The version that the invasion of the golden horde is an invasion from the west of the crusaders looks much more natural."
          it’s about these, and not about tithing, etc.
          as well as thoughts about the Golden Horde and a certain Golden Order.
          1. 0
            29 June 2013 12: 42
            Quote: Pamir210
            also about thinking about the Golden Horde and a certain Golden Order.

            The order was, he himself was surprised.
            Quote: Pamir210
            "The version that the invasion of the golden horde is an invasion from the west of the crusaders looks much more natural."
            it’s about these, and not about tithing, etc.

            And let's follow the sequence of events!
            At first, the Mongol-Tatars conquer the mysterious Ugrians who supposedly lived in the foothills of the Urals, but the Ugrians still live - these are Hungarians who also live in the foothills, but not the Urals. Then comes the conquest of the Bulgars, which traditional history places in Kazan, but in Tatarstan there is not a single ethnic Bulgarin, but there is the state of Bulgaria to the west of Russia. Further, the Polovtsians, who are not a trace in the south, I note in Russia many peoples survived and multiplied, some very hostile to the Russians, and the Polovtsians disappeared somewhere, and therefore, the Polovtsians — in a Catholic manner — were Poles, and again in the west.
            Your story is contrary to the facts.
            1. Pamir210
              0
              29 June 2013 12: 56
              There’s no point in arguing.
              You haven’t heard such a ravine for a long time.
              You definitely missed the story at school.
              1. 0
                29 June 2013 13: 37
                Quote: Pamir210
                There’s no point in arguing.
                You haven’t heard such a ravine for a long time.
                You definitely missed the story at school.

                What nonsense? What the Ugrians live in Hungary? Or that the Bulgarians live in Bulgaria? Maybe with the Poles - it is unprovable, but the fact that the words Pole and Polovtsy - cognate - this is also nonsense? Open the map.
                Your argument - "Baba Yaga is against" has already been.
                Or maybe make a screen of your certificate? If you have it! Before claiming my education.
                1. Pamir210
                  0
                  29 June 2013 14: 08
                  and what with the fact that the Pole and the Polovtsian are cognate ladle is the same from this series?)))
                  no, I can’t do a screen of my diploma (Tomsk State University, Department of History) (I don’t have a scanner at home))
                  1. -2
                    29 June 2013 14: 31
                    Ask where the word "colonel" came from in Russian.
                    1. Pamir210
                      -1
                      29 June 2013 15: 20
                      so what with a ladle?)))
                      1. -3
                        29 June 2013 15: 42
                        I suggested that you search, all right, anyway a regiment is not a nation, but two nations with the same root name - a serious argument, I don’t remember a similar incident.
                        P.S. Why do you need my answers, minus yourself, and I will minus you, everyone is happy.
                      2. Pamir210
                        +1
                        29 June 2013 18: 18
                        Who is asking about Colonel?
                        I ask about the LEADBOARD ...
                        Ladle - a large (volume from 100 ml or more) pouring spoon with a long handle. It is used for pouring soups (transparent), compotes, milk, etc. from utensils for cooking (pots) into utensils for eating food (plates, cups)
                        ...
                        and your answers ... not that I could not live without them, but reading is funny.
                      3. 0
                        29 June 2013 21: 14
                        Quote: Pamir210
                        Who is asking about Colonel?

                        Shame on my gray-haired head. But the answer is the same, ladle is not a nation
                      4. +2
                        30 June 2013 14: 54
                        Quote: Pamir210
                        I ask about the BAD.

                        The ladle has nothing to do with the Polovtsy and Poles (these words come from the word "field").
                        The word "ladle" has the root "catch", the prefix "by", the suffix "nick", derived from the word catch, catch, catch.
                        I don’t think I need to explain what they caught. The guys need to be very serious about the Russian language, it has great power and a huge storehouse of information.
        2. FRIGATE2
          +4
          29 June 2013 13: 46
          Quote: Setrac
          Explain where I'm wrong, where I cheated or lied?

          In everything that you write, you are wrong and not logical
          Quote: Setrac
          There was no forced Christianization?

          It was violent in places, but it is a matter of time and the quality of scientific progress. Now, if your pagan or much divine religion is better, then why were your ancestors Christianized? If you are such a cool Russian, then why are your relatives leaving for America and Americanizing, why did the Nicaeans (Byzantines) move so quickly to the Seljuk Turks? then Christianity was largely inferior to Islam
          Quote: Setrac
          There were no executions for the denial of Christianity? Just like now they plant in Europe for denying the Holocaust, a familiar handwriting

          You confuse everything upside down
          Quote: Setrac
          You do not believe the facts, but you believe the speculations of historians about the four thousand shepherds who enslaved half the world.

          What facts did you convey? You just the same and voice and arrange demagogy after reading Fomenko and others like them
          Quote: Setrac
          The order was, he was surprised

          Which order? Altyn Horde is now an order?
          Quote: Setrac
          First, the Mongol-Tatars conquer the mysterious Ugrians who allegedly lived in the foothills of the Urals

          Finno-Ugric tribes professor don't tell you anything?
          Quote: Setrac
          but the Ugrians live now - these are the Hungarians, who also live in the foothills, but not the Urals

          Hungarians are Hungary, direct descendants of the conqueror's Adil empire. This is a mixture of prototurks, Ugrians, Slavs.
          Quote: Setrac
          otom is the conquest of the Bulgars, which traditional history places in Kazan

          And the Bulgarian Kaganate does not tell you anything from Bulgaria to Bulgaria, the present Tatarstan.
          Quote: Setrac
          but in Tatarstan there is not a single ethnic Bulgarin, but there is the state of Bulgaria west of Russia

          You study the Tatars themselves, they are still divided apart from the local ones, one elderly Tatar was offended by me, he said that he is the Bulgar, not the Tatars
          Quote: Setrac
          Further, the Polovtsians, who are not a trace in the south, I note in Russia many nations survived and multiplied, some very hostile to the Russians, and the Polovtsians disappeared somewhere, and therefore, the Polovtsians were Poles in a Catholic manner, and again in the west.

          This is what the Polovtsy called people professing a religion with half a cross and a month, not the Poles, they were called Cathans in the Catholic manner, or now the Kumans write in the history of Russia.
          In conclusion, this is for you
          Quote: Setrac
          Your story is contrary to the facts.

          You’d include your head and logic and broaden your horizons other than Fomenkovskaya literature, but rather get acquainted with these peoples
          1. -5
            29 June 2013 14: 28
            Quote: FRIGATE2
            In everything that you write, you are wrong and not logical

            Where is the specifics? Are Hungarians not Hungarians? Are Bulgarians not Bulgarians?
            Quote: FRIGATE2
            why did your ancestors christianize

            Go to church, are there many people? Because they imposed.
            Quote: FRIGATE2
            why now your relatives leave for America

            This is generally "past the box office".
            Quote: FRIGATE2
            Finno-Ugric tribes professor don't tell you anything?

            I know Finns, I know Hungarians, Finno-Ugric peoples - an invention of your predecessors. Each of these ethnic groups is in itself.
            Quote: FRIGATE2
            And the Bulgarian Kaganate does not tell you anything from Bulgaria to Bulgaria, the present Tatarstan.

            When and why did Bulgaria become Tatarstan? And where is the "Bulgarian" language?
            Quote: FRIGATE2
            after reading Fomenko

            Morozov, Spiny, enough for a start?
            Quote: FRIGATE2
            You’d include your head and logic and broaden your horizons other than Fomenkovskaya literature, but rather get acquainted with these peoples

            Well, this is the main and most significant argument of the supporters of traditional history - to call Fomenkovtsy.
            And tell me, dear historian, what data, disciplines and sciences did such a famous compiler of chronology as Scaliger use? And his predecessors? Kabbalah, numerology, astrology (not to be confused with astronomy wink ), and you propose to believe in this indecency? But what about the logic? Horizon?
            1. aleshka1987
              0
              30 June 2013 13: 35
              Thank you for making people think! Winners always write history!
          2. +2
            29 June 2013 15: 44
            Quote: FRIGATE2
            It was violent in places, but it is a matter of time and the quality of scientific progress.

            In some places, the Third Reich attacked the USSR, and in some places - NO, but this is a matter of time and scientific progress.
            Do not you find that such a phrase sounds somehow silly?
          3. -1
            30 June 2013 14: 58
            Quote: FRIGATE2
            Polovtsy so called people professing religion with half a cross and a month

            Yeah.....
            When you said that you are a frigate that you know Russian perfectly well. But you did not answer my question then. I repeat what is common in the words "ear" and "good". Test for understanding the Russian language. If you can answer, let's talk about the Polovtsians.
            1. FRIGATE2
              +3
              30 June 2013 23: 52
              excuse me. I do not see anything common in these words, unless this is your game and only you have projections.

              Have you read all the books of Suleimenov?
              1. +1
                1 July 2013 10: 10
                Quote: FRIGATE2
                Have you read all the books of Suleimenov?

                I read. He has a system error. The development of civilizations from south to north.
                Quote: FRIGATE2
                I don’t see anything common in these words,

                In vain. They have the same root basis. "КЛС" and "ХРШ". The sounds "k", "g", "x" make up one group, since they are formed in the same place, they are interchangeable. Sounds " l "and" r "are also replaceable, some nationalities (Japanese) do not have the sound" r ", instead of it" l ". The sounds" s "and" w "are also replaceable, children often do not pronounce the sound" w ".
                Connection: an ear is bread, the basis of nutrition, that's good. In some regions of Russia, quite recently, ripe bread was called "holosvo".
                Some Asian peoples (Chinese, Japanese, etc.) pronounce “holosho” instead of “good”.
                It is not enough to know how to speak Russian, it still needs to be understood.
                1. 0
                  1 July 2013 14: 06
                  Quote: baltika-18
                  It is not enough to know how to speak Russian, it still needs to be understood.

                  It is difficult for an American spy to understand Russian.
                  1. FRIGATE2
                    +2
                    1 July 2013 19: 31
                    Quote: Setrac
                    It is difficult for an American spy to understand Russian.

                    Mr. Setrak, are you addressing this to me? If so, then I'm not a spy, but I live in Almaty, young, 22 years old.
                    I don’t deal with a photo, a document scanner and their expulsion - your catchphrase.

                    And you must be so respectable as you, to believe in all sorts of conspiracies against Russia, you are not a child
                    1. 0
                      1 July 2013 19: 35
                      Quote: FRIGATE2
                      If so, then no I'm not a spy

                      Yes, I was just joking, I do not consider you a spy.
                      1. -1
                        2 July 2013 23: 23
                        Quote: FRIGATE2
                        If so, then I'm not a spy, but I live in Almaty, young, 22 years old.

                        Not a spy, just an agent of influence.
                2. FRIGATE2
                  +3
                  1 July 2013 19: 27
                  Quote: baltika-18
                  I read. He has a system error. The development of civilizations from south to north.

                  Well, these are his thoughts of the 1980s.
                  his modern works show a different opinion thanks to Kazakhstani archaeologists. Sumer civilization did not go to Suver, but rather, from Suver to Sumer.
                  Quote: baltika-18
                  Some Asian peoples (Chinese, Japanese, etc.) pronounce “holosho” instead of “good”.

                  rummaged in Japanese, no COOL, よ く (Yoku readable) in Japanese GOOD, 잘 (jal readable in Korean GOOD.
                  You see, you did not delve into the works and methodology of Suleimenov, because why, he is Kazakh, and therefore not smarter than you - Russian, only you know your language, and the rest of the boobies are unaware and therefore, by factory settings, you only recognize yourself and never think and think that the other person may be right.
                  You would continue to trust the works of Petukhov, Chudinov, Karamzin since they are of your nationality.
                  Before judging the Japanese, one would have to know a little about it.

                  Although I admit, this time we learned a lesson and argue more thoroughly and substantively, in my opinion you started studying the Russian language a little by resorting to the Suleimenov method, I will praise you and honestly even glad.
                  Not that Mr. Setrak with Fomenko's delusions in his head, coupled with the delusions of Morozov and Lomonosov.
                  It is doubly nice that you are a religious atheist, but you must strive for absolute atheism.
                  It's nice to argue with you, thank you.
                  1. 0
                    1 July 2013 20: 33
                    Quote: FRIGATE2
                    fumbled in Japanese, no

                    I talked with Japanese and Chinese studying Russian, they physically cannot clearly pronounce the word "good", you misunderstood me a little.
                    Quote: FRIGATE2
                    You see, did not delve into the works and methodology of Suleimenov

                    Suleimenov's methodology is well understood. It is not new to me, moreover, I have been familiar with this methodology for a long time. The replaceability of the sounds "b" and "m" is not a discovery, for example. In Russian there are 5 such sounds: "b", "p", " m "," v "," f ", interchangeable labial sounds.
                    Quote: FRIGATE2
                    only you know your language, and the rest of the boobies are unaware

                    Why dunce. I just urge you to think and analyze.
                    Quote: FRIGATE2
                    I think you started studying the Russian language a little resorting to the method of Suleimenov,

                    In principle, he already answered this. Everything that was written by Suleimenov, he knew before reading it.
                    Quote: FRIGATE2
                    Mr. Setrak with Fomenko's delusions in his head, coupled with the delusions of Morozov and Lomonosov.

                    By the way, I don’t recognize classical history. Nobody knows the true history of mankind. I know one thing was completely different from how modern scholars draw, both classical and alternative. Which one is closer to the truth, we’ll soon think we will find out.
                    Quote: FRIGATE2
                    It is doubly nice that you are a religious atheist, but you must strive for absolute atheism.

                    Absolute atheism ......
                    You know humanity is not alone. The whole question is who our ancestors considered gods, who they were, and why all this?
                    1. FRIGATE2
                      +3
                      1 July 2013 21: 14
                      Quote: baltika-18
                      I talked with Japanese and Chinese studying Russian, they physically cannot clearly pronounce the word "good", you misunderstood me a little.

                      Well, this is an accent, not what you said before, like "Russian to know - not yet to think in Russian"
                      Quote: baltika-18
                      By the way, I don’t recognize classical history. Nobody knows the true history of mankind. I know one thing was completely different from how modern scholars draw, both classical and alternative. Which one is closer to the truth, we’ll soon think we will find out.

                      Well, Setraka carries you further. Of course, the official story is not perfect, but it is closer to the truth.
                      Quote: baltika-18
                      Absolute atheism ......

                      Well, atheism was written before.
                      Quote: baltika-18
                      You know humanity is not alone. The whole question is who our ancestors considered gods, who they were, and why all this?

                      This is what aliens you met. Life on other galaxies is theoretically possible, but the chance to meet it is minimal and tends to zero. Since not every living creature can suddenly take and gain intelligence as humans / people, otherwise why not see talking seals
                      But ancient people believed in God without understanding the phenomenon, and only the most daring daredevils managed to conquer a strong element: water, fire, and then the production of heavy tools.
                      You walk alone and a terrible thunder suddenly flares up, you put yourself in the place of that ancient person that you do not know the laws of physics and hromology or what science is called there. What will you feel? that's right - fear is the strongest fear and of course you will submit to the elements, stop and ask for mercy not to kill, because the thunderstorm doesn’t touch everyone, then the chance of your survival is maximum and after the thunder you will preach your religion to other people who did not fall under the thunder, because God spared you, which means you believe that it exists.
                      Centaurs - half-henchmen and half-horses - this is a visual interpretation by the ancient Anatolians of their first contacts with the Turks - skillful horse archers, masters of their craft and ferocious conquerors.
                      The gods of antiquity should not be looked for in aliens and all kinds of Gods, antiquity is just such a stage of a person when everything was understood in the most primitive way and this is called myths, but this does not say that the Greeks lied and were too people with a rich imagination, no, this reflects them a vision of reality as well as Russian fairy tales about Koshchei the Immortal, Koshchshchi - from a Turkic nomad / wanderer, and when these nomads really flooded holy Russia and are immortal, that is, invincible for their time, this should have appeared in the form of legends among the people, which then Pushkin will make it artistic / theatrical, that is, a fairy tale, where the hero - good conquers evil.

                      Apollo, the bearer of the sun on a carriage a day, do you really think after such a myth that you used to set the sun on a carriage a day and in the evening when everyone did the job, they removed the sun? if so, then you are Chudinofil, Fomenofil, otherwise they say I’m not lying, I’m telling facts like Mr. Setrak, but like you, miserable little people, you don’t speak dumb about facts and traditions.
                      Previously, people could write anything, but this does not say that this mythical world existed and it does not say that ancient people lied, it says that ancient people understood their then surrounding world and peoples
  6. +3
    29 June 2013 09: 55
    What is absolutely positive in the article is that this segment of the history of Russia requires comprehensive and impartial research!
    There are so many contradictions in the history of the time of the Golden Horde that naturally naturally raise the question - was there a boy ?!
    Quote: Setrac
    In fact, we have what? The Golden Horde planted Christianity in Russia

    In fact, we have the true flourishing of Orthodoxy, the widespread construction of monasteries and temples, the centralization of the Orthodox Church and its management! What kind of crusaders (the first time I hear a similar version of the IGA !!!), and the Tatars - the Mongols, altruists are generally landscapers!
    Quote: Setrac
    Church tithe - an economic noose on the neck of Russian states

    Well, yes, yes ... the stranglehold is such that they brought gold and silver from all over Europe and not only to us! The domes of our churches (not only in large cities, but also in small cities) were covered with gold wings (where else was this ?!), and in some places the golden gates were present !!! And travelers, both European and Eastern, spoke with admiration about the wealth of the Russian princes and that the majority in the Horde are armed Rus, which, however, is everywhere and on crossings and on roads and in cities ... Travelers, chroniclers wrote about this and wrote these fortunately preserved to this day, unlike the Mongolian labels written in Mongolian! For some reason, mostly the Mongols wrote in Russian!
    The contradiction in the article is a cart and a small cart - robbery. fear, decline ... and then the Russians had influence in the Horde and all kinds of resistance of the Horde to Catholicism, with complete tolerance and goodwill towards Orthodoxy !!! Well, why such metamorphoses ?!
    1. -2
      29 June 2013 10: 50
      Quote: Oper
      What kind of crusaders (the first time I hear a similar version of the IGA !!!)

      Crusaders planted Christianity is not good at all. There are many versions, only you who believe in the true history of traditional chronology (such is your faith among adherents) do not want to see anything.
      Quote: Oper
      In fact, we have the true flowering of Orthodoxy, the widespread construction of monasteries and temples

      You know this from a history written on the basis of church records, since the church itself did not offend its beloved when writing history.
      Quote: Oper
      The domes of our churches (not only in large cities, but also in small cities) were covered with gold wings (where else was this ?!), and in some places the golden gates were present !!!

      This is not the merit of the church, not the church earned on these temples.
    2. -5
      29 June 2013 10: 54
      Quote: Oper
      For some reason, mostly the Mongols wrote in Russian!

      The version of the Russian Mughal empire has the right to be and does not contradict the version of the invasion of the Crusaders and the imposition of Christianity.
    3. +1
      2 July 2013 20: 11
      Quote: Oper
      What is absolutely positive in the article is that this segment of the history of Russia requires comprehensive and impartial research!

      For myself (others may disagree - I will not be offended) I consider this period to be a civil war feel
      What battle do not take - on the one hand the Tatar-Mongols with the support of the Russians, on the other hand the Russians with the support of the Tatar-Mongols.
  7. +12
    29 June 2013 10: 17
    From the beginning of the reign of the Romanovs, there is a systematic distortion of history to Romanov Rus! Draw conclusions yourself, but this was done, purely in order to discredit the Rurikovich in every possible way.
  8. +7
    29 June 2013 10: 59
    Quote: krez-74
    From the beginning of the reign of the Romanovs, there is a systematic distortion of history to Romanov Rus! Draw conclusions yourself, but this was done, purely in order to discredit the Rurikovich in every possible way.




    To defame in order to secure a "right" to power. To defame not only the Rurik people, but also the entire history of the Romanovs!
  9. nnnnnn
    +14
    29 June 2013 11: 16
    The Norman theory of the genesis of the statehood of Russia was declared the only true and not subject to doubt, precisely because this was a political need. The ruling dynasty of the Romanovs was completely non-Russian by blood, so the tale of the vocation of the Varangians became a kind of phantom reflection of the "return" of the European aristocracy to the Russian throne. The Russian elite, for the most part, wanted to be their own in Europe, and the romantic doctrine of Scythian originality was not inserted by the Nafik to anyone except for rare dissidents. The very idea of ​​a common origin with a stinking rabble was deeply disgusting for many elitists. The great problem was that Europeans began to compose their great past much earlier, and did not leave any place in antiquity for Russian "savages". Therefore, for the ruling class of Russia there is only one loophole left - to cling to the history of Europe already written in general terms - they say, we have nothing to do with bast shoes, our ancestors sailed to these wild lands on boats and brought civilization to the natives. That is, the task was narrowed: it was necessary to write only the history of the glorious European civilizers who came to domesticate the wild Slavic tribes. The civilizers, according to the official mythology, were brilliant in military affairs and very wise: they nailed shields on the gates, they accepted the Christian faith voluntarily, and not as conquered peoples from the conquerors, christened the dense subjects of the pagans, well, etc. The main backbone of Russian history The Germans, Schlezer, Bayer and Miller, who had been discharged from abroad, quickly scribbled it back in the 12th century, and the popularization of this doctrine began in the next century. A decisive contribution to this matter was made by the aforementioned writer Karamzin, who, without lifting his loins from his chair, scribbled XNUMX volumes of "History of the Russian State", which were published in huge editions at that time and sold like hot cakes.
  10. Oleg1986
    -5
    29 June 2013 12: 17
    Oh, again the pagans climbed out of their caves. Now, if someone ruins Russia, it’s you, and not some rose-yellow liberals, since the ratio of cockroaches in the head to the braking moment and the force of gravity of the fifth point to the sofa is clearly in your favor. It is very easy to manage such "Russians".
    1. +6
      29 June 2013 12: 26
      Quote: Oleg1986
      Oh, again, pagans from their caves climbed out. Now, if someone ruins Russia, it’s you, and not some pink-haired liberalists

      And again a lie! Religion does not unite people, but rather disconnects.
      Orthodoxy was introduced and went:
      Once - and cut off the western lands, because they are Catholic,
      Two - down with southern Russia - they are Muslims,
      Three - down with the east - they are pagans.
      Well, there is little things - the destruction of the Old Believers - mind you, Christians, not Gentiles.
  11. ed65b
    +3
    29 June 2013 12: 24
    What did the "Mongols" have to cut out Russia? tribute pay gifts give behave quietly again from the west cover. It was the reckless Arabs who let everyone under the knife, and the "Mongols" had brains. And as it was, no one really knows, he was not personally present and did not question eyewitnesses. Well, since we are Orthodox, it means that we gave God in our native language to pray.
  12. Nicotine 7
    +2
    29 June 2013 14: 06
    Well, if for some the Byzantine religion is truly the Russian Faith, then yes ... it all fits together, everything is as if by a textbook. There is only a problem with the Mongols: how did they steer the whole continent and suddenly ... were left with nothing. rainy day, nothing was left.
    1. +3
      29 June 2013 14: 34
      Have you noticed too? To call the Greek Orthodox religion - Russian - I feel somewhere (fucking ....) deceiving me.
    2. ed65b
      0
      29 June 2013 14: 54
      Because the Mongols are a generic name. And there just wasn’t there.
  13. indrik
    +1
    29 June 2013 14: 27
    but why would the Horde oppress the churchmen? The church always and at all angles shouted that the Batyev invasion is God's punishment for sins. It was beneficial for the Horde to support the priesthood, because it helped keep the conquered people in subjection, like, pray and everything will pass, and kick it’s not necessary, because it’s the punishment of the Lord, and when it considers that our sins are atoned for, then it will save us from invaders. The question of whether the boy (the Mongol invasion) was a separate conversation.
    1. Marek Rozny
      +2
      3 July 2013 14: 01
      Quote: Indric
      but why would the Horde oppress the clergy?

      do not make the Russian Church something especially in the eyes of the steppe people. among the steppe inhabitants, any priest of any religion is a "man of God." even if the Russian priests declared that Genghis Khan was a mad dog, they would not have done anything anyway.
      A European cannot understand this, and he is trying to find everywhere some kind of selfish motive in the religious tolerance of the steppe people. and there is no secret subtext here. just everyone (even before Genghis Khan) was hammered into the head by traditions that one should not offend "God's servants". It is the Semitic religions that are trying to achieve their dominance, and the steppe people are really convinced that all religions are good and have a right to exist. All this was before Chinggis, all this is preserved among the steppe people in the 21st century.
      In Kazakhstan, churches, churches, and synagogues are being built and this does not bother anyone from the Kazakhs. On one of the main attractions of Astana in the Baiterek tower, there is a pedestal on which all the heads of all world religions wrote their wishes to Kazakhstan. Kazakhs are calm - both Buddha, and Christ, and Allah, and Krishna are happy with us)))) This is our mentality. Abroad, I somehow became homesick and wanted to pray (although at home in the KZ I do not show piety), well, it was all to me. I went to a nearby Buddhist temple, watched them pray, and I myself prayed there until I felt better. I was not at all embarrassed by the fact that I prayed as a Buddhist and not as a Muslim. Because I am a steppe, and steppe people are very far from religious intolerance. And he gave money to this Buddhist temple (not much, but sincerely) so that it would stand for another 1000 years as it stood before me.
      Kazakhs, although they do not live in the 21st century along Yasa (by the way, in Turkic it literally translates as "What needs to be done" from the infinitive "yasau" - "to do"; in Kazakh this code of laws was called accordingly "zhasa", since Kazakhs "dzhekayut", and not "yekayut", and the "yekayut" name Yasa came from the literary Turkic norm), but the basic rules of behavior are unconsciously still observed in everyday life and culture. These laws existed both before Chinggis and after (Instructions of Khan Tauke - "Zhety zargy").
      In short, the steppes do not really care about the religious characteristics of their neighbors.
  14. indrik
    +1
    29 June 2013 14: 31
    I forgot to add that the horde did not pretend to church (monastery) lands, as well as to income from them and parishioners.
  15. chauvinist
    -5
    29 June 2013 16: 10
    The Tatar-Mongols were much worse than the most fierce of the SS. Dozens of burnt cities, tens of thousands of slain and slaughtered. This served as an impetus for the final destruction of the ancient Russian state and the collapse of the eastern into Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians. For almost three hundred years Russia was enclosed in a Mongolian vice, many principalities became part of Lithuania. And what about the church. She saved Russia many times from ruin by her authority in the Horde.
    1. indrik
      +4
      29 June 2013 18: 10
      show at least one military, and with it, civilian, but mass grave of the Mongoloids near Kozelsk, Ryazan, Rostov. There are none of these. It means there was no raid (Kozelsk held the defense for seven weeks)
      1. chauvinist
        0
        29 June 2013 23: 09
        Under Old Ryazan, several thousand skeletons with signs of violent death.
        1. indrik
          +2
          30 June 2013 01: 53
          What is the race?
  16. soldier's grandson
    -2
    29 June 2013 19: 31
    the Mongols were told by the Chinese that in Russia they make horsemeat stew and when they arrived the stews did not see and got angry
  17. Pamir210
    0
    29 June 2013 22: 23
    Quote: Setrac
    Shame on my gray-haired head

    that's for sure you noticed)
    good characterization of your knowledge of history
    1. -2
      29 June 2013 23: 26
      Quote: Pamir210
      that's for sure you noticed)
      good characterization of your knowledge of history

      And would you go to a butterfly farm to catch?
      1. Pamir210
        0
        2 July 2013 18: 40
        )) where to go and what to do I will decide without you, "connoisseur of history")))
  18. -3
    29 June 2013 23: 36
    pseudo-historical vinaigred
  19. +1
    30 June 2013 01: 39
    Quote: Setrac
    And again, the conquering shepherds "conquer the world." It is necessary to force all historians to study mathematics, physics, logistics. And tell me where is this very Barn?
    In fact, we have what? The Golden Horde planted Christianity in Russia, and here they are trying to convince us that nomad shepherds came to Russia to establish Christianity, but this is nonsense!
    The version looks much more natural that the invasion of the Golden Horde is an invasion from the west of the crusaders, especially since the Golden Order existed in Europe, and these same crusaders planted Christianity, destroying those who disagree, and those who disagree - all adults - everyone who is above the "wheel of the cart" ...
    Let me focus on why it is necessary to plant Christianity in Russia! Imposing his religion on the conquered territory, the Pope levies this very territory (country) with such a form of colonial tax as church tithe (which is exactly what the conquerors did - they taxed it - with tithe). With the advent of the Golden Horde in Russia, the practice of electing princes ceased, the princes began to inherit the "table". Church tithe is an economic stranglehold around the neck of the Russian states.


    The article is controversial. Again, Batu is called a Mongol, although there is proven information that he is a European, and in general Tartaria was called Tataria.
    The purpose of the campaign of Batu, by the way, at the invitation of the Prince of Vladimir, to stop the Catholic invasion of Russia.
    1. +3
      30 June 2013 08: 43
      I live in Buryatia, I often visit Mongolia. So there, among the old people living in remote areas, no one ever heard from their ancestors that a certain nomad from Mongolia conquered and for 300 years "tilted" Great Russia (Russia). They wave their hands and say that they are nonsense, smiling. Who else, if not the inhabitants of the steppes, know that it is impossible to cover such distances with such a number of people (troops) in the time interval indicated in history and never leave records about themselves in Old Mongolian, traces, etc. In addition, geneticists have long ago revealed the absence of Mongoloid genes in the blood of Russians in the European part of Russia. Although, as a rule, the conquest of lands was accompanied by mass rapes. And the "Mongol" khans and princes gladly married the daughters of Russian princes. Facts are serious business! Even Lomonosov was against the introduction of Scaliger's ideas into the history of Russia. Also a fact! In general, those historians who cannot confirm their words with facts, but because Fomenko and Nosovsky mathematics, oppose the version of Fomenko and Nosovsky. But unlike the historian, they clearly prove their version.
  20. +5
    30 June 2013 11: 26
    Quote: Nvalexandr
    So there, among the old people living in remote areas, no one ever heard from their ancestors that a certain nomad from Mongolia conquered and for 300 years "tilted" Great Russia (Russia). They wave their hands and say that they are nonsense, smiling.

    And the descendants of the great Genghisides in general about this dream are not in spirit. And they know about their former greatness exclusively from us. In Mongolia, there is nothing at all that would even indirectly speak of great conquests. Nothing at all! Likewise, there is NOTHING in Russia! There are monasteries and temples of those times, and there are labels in Russian, but there are NO Mongols! Such a civilization is anomalous - it took and disappeared without leaving anything behind, but also completely removed the historical memory from its descendants!
    And do not, dear, especially stubborn about Lomonosov talk! Lomonosov is not a decree for them! Other historians and scholars, and not only Russians, do not decree them! They would like to consider themselves descendants of the Swedes, so it’s quite logical and it follows that for 300 years the Mongols and Tatars have been the bosses, there wouldn’t be any Mongols ... And Bayer, in all seriousness, led the boyar’s word from a ram! Such people are Romanov’s and invited to write Russian history!
    Any sane person touching this topic at least once in his life asked himself a question - how can it be so for 300 years !!! And nothing! Well, throw 300 years from the present ... it was 1713!
    Is something wrong or is everything normal ?!
    1. +1
      30 June 2013 18: 39
      good good hi I agree, dear, I agree
    2. Marek Rozny
      +2
      2 July 2013 21: 28
      Found someone to ask. Among the Mongolian peoples, not a single clan took part in the campaigns to the West in the 13th century. Therefore, there are no such memories. But the Turkic peoples will still talk about how his ancestors crushed all of Europe like a tin can. Because it is THEIR ancestors who walked in the 13th century with Genghis Khan. Any eastern source in Turkic, Mongolian, Chinese, Persian, Arabic contains the names of the families of the Horde and the names of military leaders, officials and batyrs. All 100% of genus names and personal names are Turkic (in extreme cases, Turkic-Muslim later). Not a single Mongolian clan (Torgout, Hoshiut, Dyurbets, etc.) is mentioned. And only those clans (Naimans, Argyns, Kereis, Zhalayyrs, Uysuns, Kipchaks, Barlas, Kiyats, etc.), which are still the main part of the largest Turkic peoples, are the direct ancestors of Kazakhs (first of all), Nogais, Karakalpaks, Bashkirs , Siberian Tatars, Crimean Tatars (nomadic Crimeans, but not sedentary), Kazan Tatars (in part, but the bulk of the ancestors of the Kazan Tatars - the Bulgars - themselves fell under the pressure of the Horde), Uzbeks (a small part that until the 20th century were "nomadic Uzbeks ", now they are known as the" Kurama "clan). These peoples still revere Genghis Khan.
      Russians pay very little attention to eastern sources, most of them are unknown to a wide circle of Russian historians, although most of them have long been translated into Russian.
      And all that is said about the customs of the Horde of the 13th century - all this was preserved among the Turkic steppes until the Soviet era. Like the Chingizids themselves, they were the main political party (in the Kazakh steppe, for example) up to the Bolshevik era. Despite the fact that the khanate of the Genghisids was abolished in Kazakhstan in the 19th century, the Genghisides themselves actually controlled the Kazakh lands until 1917 as Russian officials.
      It is useless to ask Mongols, Kalmyks or Buryats about Genghis Khan. Ask the Kazakhs, Karakalpaks, Bashkirs, Nogays, Siberian Tatars. They clearly remember that they once made a rustle throughout Eurasia. Moreover, the representatives of these peoples will not just generally say "Kazakhs (Bashkirs) were the basis of the Horde", but will specifically say "my family - Naiman / Kipchak / Argyn / Kerey / Zhalayyr - was the basis of Genghis Khan's fist". And their bragging is fully justified. And ask the Mongol if his family took part in the campaign to the West - the Mongol will say that "in general the Mongols participated in the campaign," but he would not dare to declare that his ancestors took part in the conquest of Genghis Khan. Because every steppe dweller knows where what kind was at that time in the Steppe. The family of modern Mongols in the 13th century hung out in the territory of present-day China (Inner Mongolia district). And they did not call themselves Mongols. Their first common ethnonym - "Khalkha" (in Russian "shield"), which was adopted already decayed ashes of Chinggis. And the Steppe Turks bore the name "Mongol" up to the present day. And this word was used when they wanted to emphasize the continuity from the empire of Genghis Khan ("Mongolstan" / "Mogolistan" / "Mog
      1. Marek Rozny
        +1
        2 July 2013 21: 30
        In Russia, until the Kazakh steppes were annexed, they calmly wrote that the Kazakhs were direct descendants of the main part of the Horde, and they did not even remember about the Khalkha Mongols. Everything changed in the 18th century, when the Kazakhs became subjects of the Russian Empire - then they instantly stopped writing about the connection of the Kazakhs with the Horde, because they felt that they didn’t need to caress the ears of foreigners, recalling that the Russians were once under them. Moreover, the Kazakh khans themselves - the descendants of Genghis Khan himself - turned to the Russian tsars from the 18th century as a vassal turns to the suzerain. What overlord will remind you that once it was the other way around? In Russian historiography, it is banal to keep silent about the topic of "Kazakhs-Horde". And Soviet historiography in general transferred the "Horde heritage" to the Khalkha, who never (until the beginning of the 20th century) did not particularly call themselves Mongols. And the Chinese neighbors called all the neighbors who lived in the empire of Genghis Khan as Mongols (more precisely, "Mengu"), and even the Russians were Mongols for the Chinese, for example, the 17th century. And even at the beginning of the 20th century, Russia was part of the Lifanyuan sphere (in other words, "the Mongolian department of the Foreign Ministry of the Qing Empire").
        For the first time the word "Mongol" became a unifying ethnonym in 1911, when a revolution took place in present-day Mongolia with the hands of Russia and this part of the land declared its independence from China (more precisely, the Qing Empire). From that moment on, the Khalkha began to call themselves Mongols.
        When the Bolsheviks won in Mongolia, the Mongols themselves wanted to rename the capital of the state (Urga) into Baatar-khono (Bogatyr-city), but at the congress there was a representative from the Comintern - Kazakh Turar Ryskulov, who apparently did not want the Mongols to be they were associated with Genghis Khan (for their Bolshevik and Kazakh reasons) and diplomatically proposed to rename the city Ulan-Baatar (Red Bogatyr). But the mechanism of the Mongolization of Genghis Khan had already been launched by that time, and as a result, every Mongol believes that it was they who went to the "Last Sea" in the 13th century, embarrassed to mention their own ancestors. Mongolian official historiography wriggled out of this paradox, building everything on two postulates: 1) Genghis Khan himself is an ethnic Mongol, period; 2) Of course, there were Turks in the army of Genghis Khan (90%), but there were also Mongols in his army (10%). In addition, the Mongols declared all the largest Kazakh families to be of Mongolian (Khalkha) origin, which causes gigantic amazement among the Kazakhs. The Kazakh clans Naiman, Argyn, Kerey, Zhalayyr and some others - which are the main part of Kazakhs - with the light hand of Mongolian and Soviet historians, became Turkic Mongols. However, at the same time, the "Turkic Mongols" never used the Mongolian (Khalkha) language and there are no "Mongolisms" in their culture. They are absolutely identical to the rest of the Kazakh clans. This statement is complete crap. all these clans live in the same place where they lived by the 13th century, and who would Turkize them if they are a 100% majority in their lands? There are more Kazakhs-Naimans (the largest family among Kazakhs) than all Mongols in Mongolia. Kazakh-Naimans live in large numbers in Mongolia itself among the Mongols and absolutely do not consider themselves Khalkha.
        In short, the Romanovs were wise with the "Mongols", and now when the Russians began to understand that the present Mongols of Mongolia have only a distant relation to the Horde of Genghis Khan, they "give birth" to the wildest theories that there was no Horde invasion at all.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Marek Rozny
        +1
        2 July 2013 21: 47
        In the first message, part of the text was cut off:
        Their first common ethnonym - "Khalkha" (in Russian "shield"), which was adopted already decayed ashes of Genghis Khan. And the Steppe Turks bore the name "Mongol" up to the present day. And this word was used when they wanted to emphasize the continuity from the empire of Genghis Khan ("Mongolstan" / "Mogolistan" / "Mogulstan" / "Mogul
        istan ", and before that" Mongol Ulys "-" the state of a thousand troops "). The word" Mongol "does not mean anything in Mongolian, but in Kazakh it literally means" a thousand troops "(written in the Kazakh modern Cyrillic alphabet" mygol " , pronounced "mngol").
        1. 0
          2 July 2013 22: 42
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Steppe Turks bore the name "Mongol" up to modern times.

          ha-ha, 1.) sources 2.) not creepy? Meng gu is the Chinese designation of the inhabitants of Ononayu They stayed so, go check it out. Onona. And the fact that many are broadcasting the real mog (n) olam "on the side." They, surprisingly, retain their language and customs. A question for filling: what the Kalmyks have forgotten in the Trans-Volga region and why are they so unusual and MOST IMPORTANT, according to language and archaic they are the Mongol steppe inhabitants or still a fragment of the Great Tribe. And since we are all here for the truth, then the words wake up in Kazakh: fire, water and air
          1. 0
            2 July 2013 22: 51
            Quote: Thunderbolt
            fire, water and air
            well enlighten how
          2. Marek Rozny
            +1
            3 July 2013 00: 48
            1) Look at the state of Mogulistan and who lived there. This state has been preserved almost to our days (although in a terribly truncated form in recent centuries).
            2) The Chamber of External Territories (理藩院 Lifanyuan) - the former core of the management system of the Mongol, Oirat and Uyghur vassal princes, the Tibetan clergy and aristocracy and the Turkic-Muslim nobility, as well as responsible for relations with Russia, Central Asian states, etc. The chamber was founded approx. 1634 as the Mongolian government (蒙古 衙門 mengu yamen), in 1638 it received the name that remained until the XX century.
            3) Kalmyks were literally "last night" in the Trans-Volga steppe. They have not been there since the 13th century. And they came there from Dzungaria, when the Golden Horde had long since rested in Bose.
            4) What does the Kazakh words "fire, water and air" have to do with it? Not understood. And in general, I do not quite understand your message. Can you be a little clearer?
            1. 0
              3 July 2013 01: 46
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              I do not quite understand your message. Could it be a little clearer?
              So much clearer laughing 1.)
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              Steppe Turks bore the name "Mongol" up to modern times.
              Sources, Sir, but what is stored in libraries (wikis, etc. is not an argument in a scientific dispute 2.) Let's compare the etymology of words that are indigenous to any nation. Do you want to proclaim the great Mongols as Türkits? Well, well, the answer to two simple questions, we'll see hi ))) Z. The Great Genghis Khan was Kazakh? Well, well .. fire, water and air, and then we'll talk.
              1. 0
                3 July 2013 01: 51
                Ah! I forgot one detail, like in Kazakh the word constellation (collection of stars)?
                1. Marek Rozny
                  +1
                  3 July 2013 03: 06
                  Kazakhs called each star and each cluster of stars by its own separate name. The Kazakhs, in principle, did not have the word "constellation" (although it can be expressed, of course).
                  The scientific term appeared in the 20th century, and before that, the Kazakhs moved without this term.
                  Milky Way - "Құs zholy" ("bird's way")
                  North Star - Temirkazyk (iron stick),
                  The constellation Ursa Major - Zhety karaksha (Seven thieves),
                  Leo Constellation - Kambar
                  Pleiades Constellation - Urker
                  Constellation Cassiopeia - Karakurt
                  Venus - Tangsholpan / Sholpan
                  Sirius - Sumbile
                  Moon - Ay
                  Sun - Kun
                  Etc.

                  In short, what an amazing trump card do you want to pull out? I really can’t wait)))
                  1. Beck
                    +3
                    3 July 2013 10: 15
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    Milky Way - "Құs zholy" ("bird's way")
                    North Star - Temirkazyk (iron stick),
                    The constellation Ursa Major - Zhety karaksha (Seven thieves),
                    Leo Constellation - Kambar
                    Pleiades Constellation - Urker
                    Constellation Cassiopeia - Karakurt
                    Venus - Tangsholpan / Sholpan
                    Sirius - Sumbile
                    Moon - Ay
                    Sun - Kun
                    Etc.


                    As I understand it, the opponent Stormbreaker was brought up on the traditions that the Steppe is backwardness and savagery. Therefore, he doesn’t ask questions like that in the hope of stealthily incriminating the Steppe in ancient underdevelopment. And Stormbreaker does not want to admit that universal human culture consists of cultures of all nations. That without a nomadic, steppe culture, universal human culture will be incomplete.
                    1. Beck
                      +2
                      3 July 2013 13: 26
                      Quote: Beck
                      As I understand it


                      I will add. Polar Star - Temirkazyk, more precisely, the translation will be - Iron Kol.

                      The sacred meaning in the steppe was that the whole essence of the world is attached to the Iron Stake and the universe constantly revolves around the Iron Stake per day and cannot leave the limits indicated by this star.

                      By the way, Thunderbolt, Marek satisfied your "curiosity" with subtext, naming the Kazakh names of stars and constellations in Kazakh. Could you please satisfy my curiosity. The names of all of the above stars sound in the Westernized manner of the Pleiades, Sirius and beyond. So, could you name these same stars in Old Russian in Russian? What were they called in the old days by the Russians?
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        0
                        3 July 2013 14: 22
                        Beck, thanks for the fix. Yes, the word "stake" is better here and the translation then turns out to have a more correct meaning. Temirkazyk is driven into the sky like a stake, and not just a stick.
                        And I can also remember the constellation Orion - "Ush arhar" ("Three argali") and Jupiter - "Esek kyrgan" ("Death of donkeys").
                        As a child, my mother told all sorts of stories about stars, about thieves who want to steal two horses tied from Temirkazyk, and about how a cow wanted to catch sleeping stars, and they flew away and turned into Urker))) And my mother's name too heavenly - "Moon" in Russian.
                        She told some more tales about each star, I don’t remember. He’ll come to visit in a month - I’ll ask her how to tell her again in childhood)

                        It was important for the steppes to know the star map. Therefore, in the steppes of the Kazakhs, no one could get lost. How to get lost if you have free GPS over you?)))
                        And a settled resident can live his life without knowing the stars.
                        "... The abyss of stars is full,
                        The stars are endless, the bottom abyss ... "
              2. Marek Rozny
                0
                3 July 2013 02: 46
                Quote: Thunderbolt
                Quote: Marek Rozny
                Steppe Turks bore the name "Mongol" up to modern times.
                Sources, Sir, but what is stored in libraries (wiki, etc., is not an argument in a scientific dispute

                I told you, look what kind of state it is - Mogolistan / Moghulistan. There you will see who called themselves "Mongol" - the Turks or Khalkha, who began to call themselves "Mongol" only after the 1911 revolution. Mogolistan is a Turkic state in which the Turks lived. The name of the country literally translates as "country of the Mongols". What else do you want?
                Quote: Thunderbolt
                let's compare the etymology of words that are fundamental to any nation. Do you want to proclaim the great Mongols as Türkites? Well, well, the answer to two simple questions, and then we'll see hi))) Z. The great Genghis Khan was Kazakh? Well, well .. fire, water and air, and then we'll talk.

                Damn, write normally in Russian. You get such a mishmash ...
                a) Let's compare the etymology. What are you interested in? fire - "from", water "su", air - "aua", "hue", "aspan" (meaning "sky"). Only I did not understand what you want to deduce from this?
                b) Genghis Khan's father is from the subgenus belonging to the Kiyat clan, which is part of the Kazakhs. Genghis Khan's mother is from the Naiman clan, which is part of the Kazakhs. His eldest wife is also from a Kazakh family. The name Shyngys is Turkic (there are several interpretations, but they are all Turkic). His real name is Temirshi (Temirchi, Temurchi) - in Kazakh "blacksmith", a common Turkic name. The name "Temuchin" is not found either among the Turks or among the Mongols. It is taken from the Chinese chronicles, but the Chinese do not have the "r" sound and they remake all foreign names as much as possible in the Chinese manner. Genghis Khan himself was proud of the well-known fact that his family was famous for its blacksmiths, and that their family was one of the first to start smelting ore. The name with the root "Temir" ("iron") (Temir, Temirshi, Temirzhan, Temirbek, Temirkhan, Khantemir / Kantemir, Baytemir, etc.) is still one of the most common among Kazakhs. Türkic names "Timur", "Tamerlane" - from the same place. Ask a Mongol, Kalmyk or Buryat if there are Chingizids among them? In the old days they had only a few of them, but now they don't. But at least send the Chingizids to the Kazakhs for export.
                If his name was Lyubomir, his father was a Vyatichi, and his mother was from the Krivichi tribe, and all his descendants were part of the modern Russian people and considered themselves Russians, would you still be convinced that he is a Khalkha-"Mongol"?
                Genghis Khan was loyal to only one nation - the Turks. And only to the main Turkic ruler of that time, Khorezmshah Muhammad, he offered an equal alliance, arguing that the peoples of both rulers are one nation. Neither "before" nor "after" Genghis Khan offered equal relations to anyone. And he recruited some of the Turks into his army, while for some reason neglecting the Khalkha, Chinese, Slavs, Caucasians, who, if they were in the army of Genghis Khan, played the role of a doomed "cannon fodder" to save the Turkic wars. Yes, there were detachments from the Russian wars under the leadership of the Russian princes in the Horde army, but on the rights of Khivi, policemen and Ost-battalions in the Wehrmacht. The main force of the army consisted exclusively of Turkic nomads. If the Khalkha Mongols were in Kazakhstan, then where is their cultural influence on us?
                1. Marek Rozny
                  0
                  3 July 2013 02: 47
                  We have a bunch of Iranisms, Arabisms in our language, words from Russian and European languages ​​have appeared in the last two centuries, but there is not a single Mongolism! And this despite the fact that Soviet historiography, together with Mongolian history, assert that more than half of the Kazakhs are Turkic Mongols! Kazakhs have even preserved Iranian words from the time of the Scythians, but for some reason there are no Mongolian words ... And as some here ask: "where in Russian culture" Mongolisms "?", And I ask, and where in Kazakh culture "Mongolisms "? Absolutely everything related to Genghis Khan and Horde is Turkic. From A to Z".
                  Even if we assume that Genghis Khan was 100% Mongol, then what relation do the present Mongols have to him and his conquests, if his army, officials and his direct descendants are the present Kazakhs? If we (Naimans, Argyns, Kereis, Zhalayyrs, Konyrats, Barlas) are "Turkified Mongols", then what does the "Mongols of Mongolia" have to do with (Hoshiuts, Dyurbets, Torgauts), who did not eat a gram of horse meat beyond the Dzungar Pass and the West even in the eyes did not see? The Horde invasion left a huge amount of Turkic words in the Russian language, and not a single Mongolian!
                  Remember how the Horde in the Caucasus separated the Polovtsy of Khan Kotyan with the local abreks: the "Tatar-Mongols" told the Polovtsy that there was no point in shedding brotherly blood, that the Horde and Polovtsians were born from the same mother. And the Polovtsians really lowered their weapons, because they saw that they were absolutely the same Turks like themselves. But a Turk and a Mongol will never tell each other that they are one people. You will distinguish a Russian fellow from a Portuguese during communication? Who first proclaimed Genghis Khan as a khan, having raised him on a white mat in 1206? Four clans, which are now an integral part of the Kazakhs of the Middle Zhuz. And this is a historical fact. Not a single Khalkha-Mongol clan took part in this ceremony and did not proclaim Temuchin as their khan. In Kazakhstan there is a mausoleum to Chingis's son - Jochi (in Kazakh Zhoshi, or rather Zholshy - "traveler", because he was born on the road, this name "Traveler" in different variations is still popular among Kazakhs). All those close to Genghis Khan and the heads of the clans left their imprints in this mausoleum of tamgas (coats of arms of clans). And only Kazakh tamgas are there! Not a single Mongolian! Until now, Kazakhs and Mongols remember what kind of tamga. Where are the Mongolian tamgas in the Jochi mausoleum? Where are these Khalkha in Kazakhstan? There is not a single trace of them. Generally. Until the creation of the Dzungar state (formed on the fragments of the empire of Genghis Khan), the Kazakhs did not face the threat from the Mongol-speaking peoples at all.
            2. Marek Rozny
              +1
              3 July 2013 01: 49
              and by the way, about the Kalmyks. not only did the Kalmyks come to the Volga quite recently, but they have not yet taken root there, and decided to completely return home to Dzungaria. though a small part of the Kalmyks did not manage to cross the Volga and got stuck there. they turned into today's Kalmyks (they did not call themselves Kalmyks, it was the Kazakhs who called them that, "Kalmak" - literally "the one who remained"). and the bulk of these dzungars floated across the Kazakh steppes to the east. Kazakhs exterminated them, and only a small part of these Dzungars reached their homeland.
              zs Kazakhs perceived these Dzungars as the same Dzungars of Dzungaria, with whom they were at that time in an all-out war of extermination. They are one and the same people, just some at one time decided to migrate to the Russian Empire, while others stayed at home. The Kalmaks survived, and the rest of the Dzungars were completely destroyed by the Kazakhs and Manchus.
              1. FRIGATE2
                +2
                3 July 2013 02: 49
                Quote: Marek Rozny
                and by the way, about the Kalmyks. not only did the Kalmyks come to the Volga quite recently, but they have not yet taken root there, and decided to completely return home to Dzungaria. though a small part of the Kalmyks did not manage to cross the Volga and got stuck there. they turned into today's Kalmyks (they did not call themselves Kalmyks, it was the Kazakhs who called them that, "Kalmak" - literally "the one who remained"). and the bulk of these dzungars floated across the Kazakh steppes to the east. Kazakhs exterminated them, and only a small part of these Dzungars reached their homeland.
                zs Kazakhs perceived these Dzungars as the same Dzungars of Dzungaria, with whom they were at that time in an all-out war of extermination. They are one and the same people, just some at one time decided to migrate to the Russian Empire, while others stayed at home. "Kalmaks" survived, and the rest of the Dzungars were completely destroyed by Kazakhs and Manchus.

                Good morning, I wanted to ask you what you think about dietary supplements and about the company of the Chinese Tiens?
                1. Marek Rozny
                  +1
                  3 July 2013 03: 14
                  Quote: FRIGATE2
                  Good morning, I wanted to ask you what you think about dietary supplements and about the company of the Chinese Tiens?

                  I don’t think anything about them. why this question?
                  1. FRIGATE2
                    +2
                    4 July 2013 05: 45
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    I don’t think anything about them. why this question?

                    Yes, they were close to them, I thought these scammers have long been gone, but it turns out
              2. hamster67
                0
                31 July 2013 00: 44
                Hmmm, here is the REAL Mongol, as he was seen by those who fought with them near Lignitz and who depicted him on the grave under the feet of the late Duke Heinrich the Pious two years later when the monument was ready.
                A real Kazakh ... or even somewhere in Karakalpak ...
                1. Beck
                  +1
                  31 July 2013 08: 11
                  Quote: hamster67
                  A real Kazakh ... or even somewhere in Karakalpak ...


                  What are you kidding about? What do you think the European sculptor sculpted a reliable portrait? It is just a symbol of victory. What do you think the sculptor bothered by the accuracy of the devil?
                  1. hamster67
                    0
                    2 August 2013 21: 22
                    I ask you to accept an apology if you touched, but on the merits of the question - This is not a symbol of victory, this is a tombstone to the duke who lost the battle, whose head at the peak was shown to the besieged. The tombstone was placed after 2 years, so that all the survivors were alive and would not include fantasy elements in a realistic sculpture.
                    There is no evidence of Bagatura’s Asian campaign, Bel IV does not mention them, only about Rus, wanderers, and Polovtsy. Well, yes, they already knew quite well.
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. The comment was deleted.
  21. 0
    30 June 2013 14: 26
    Well, actually this is the result of a discussion on a historical topic, we have historians, but I never received an answer: what such data, disciplines and sciences did such a famous compiler of the chronology as Scaliger or Petavus use? Because they don’t know the answer, they take their word for it, their religion is such - history.
    1. aleshka1987
      +3
      30 June 2013 14: 36
      I liked Lopatin's book "Scaliger Matrix" - a criticism of traditional history, nothing superfluous. I started reading Nosovsky-Fomenko, they immediately give their version of events, but their argumentation is also dubious, to put it mildly ... You can't replace one cranberry with another, just because it looks beautiful. I would be glad to hear your criticism.
      1. 0
        30 June 2013 16: 06
        Quote: aleshka1987
        You can’t replace one cranberry with another

        Yes, they blundered here, criticizing the traditional history, Fomenko right there, BASED ON THE SAME DATA WHICH HE REFUSES, writes his own version, as invented as the generally accepted one.
        1. aleshka1987
          0
          30 June 2013 16: 59
          As you know, "The truth is guarded by battalions of lies!" There is an assumption that the goals of Nosovsky-Fomenko are worse than simply cutting the dough. Their task is to discredit everyone who doubts the traditional chronology and history, mixing everyone into one shitty heap. As the saying goes, "If you can't suppress - head and take away!"
          1. 0
            2 July 2013 23: 02
            Quote: Setrac
            I never received an answer: what such data, disciplines and sciences did such a famous compiler of chronology use
            The only source --- written chronicles and arch.npodki-everything else --- games of the mind
  22. +2
    30 June 2013 15: 56
    Quote: Nvalexandr
    I live in Buryatia, I often visit Mongolia. So there, among the old people living in remote areas, no one ever heard from their ancestors that a certain nomad from Mongolia conquered and for 300 years "tilted" Great Russia (Russia). They wave their hands and say that they are nonsense, smiling. Who else, if not the inhabitants of the steppes, know that it is impossible to cover such distances with such a number of people (troops) in the time interval indicated in history and never leave records about themselves in Old Mongolian, traces, etc. In addition, geneticists have long ago revealed the absence of Mongoloid genes in the blood of Russians in the European part of Russia. Although, as a rule, the conquest of lands was accompanied by mass rapes. And the "Mongol" khans and princes gladly married the daughters of Russian princes. Facts are serious business! Even Lomonosov was against the introduction of Scaliger's ideas into the history of Russia. Also a fact! In general, those historians who cannot confirm their words with facts, but because Fomenko and Nosovsky mathematics, oppose the version of Fomenko and Nosovsky. But unlike the historian, they clearly prove their version.


    It has already been genetically proven that throughout Russia, from Siberia to Moscow, there are fewer Mongoloid genes in Russians than in Europeans! That's all the Mongols with their yoke.
    1. Marek Rozny
      0
      2 July 2013 21: 42
      Quote: Ross
      It has already been genetically proven that throughout Russia, from Siberia to Moscow, there are fewer Mongoloid genes in Russians than in Europeans!

      This statement comes from one obscure study where they took an incomprehensible selection of people and deduced such data. If you take the residents of Novgorod, Arkhangelsk or Minsk - there really is no "Horde" blood. But if you scratch the Russians of the Urals, Siberia, the Cossacks, the inhabitants of the steppe part of Ukraine, then there will be clear "Tatarism" for everyone.
      Quote: Ross
      there are fewer Mongoloid genes in Russians than in Europeans!

      If there was no "Tatar-Mongol", then where did the Europeans have their genes?))) And they are found not only among the Hungarians, but also among the Poles) Moreover, the Poles do not even hesitate to recognize the "Tatar" blood in their gentry. A lot of Horde settled in the ON.
      1. 0
        2 July 2013 22: 01
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        This statement comes from one obscure study where they took an incomprehensible selection of people and deduced such data. If you take the residents of Novgorod, Arkhangelsk or Minsk - there really is no "Horde" blood. But if you scratch the Russians of the Urals, Siberia, the Cossacks, the inhabitants of the steppe part of Ukraine, then there will be clear "Tatarism" for everyone.

        You have recorded the Tatars in the Mongoloids? Original.


        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Moreover, the Poles do not even hesitate to recognize the "Tatar" blood in their gentry. A lot of Horde settled in the ON.

        Poles are not particularly relevant to ON. More truly, no.
        "There are a lot of Tatars in ON" it depends with whom to compare. If with blacks, then yes, if with Jews, then much less. You can't even compare with the locals. Sticky and Karaites. These names say little to Belarusians and Lithuanians. And these are the names of the Tatar communities, which consisted of the Tatars who were hired to serve in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
        1. Marek Rozny
          0
          3 July 2013 01: 26
          Tatars, like most other Turks, belong to the South Siberian (Turanian) race. The Türks are not Caucasians, nor Mongoloids, although there are various phenotypes close to both poles. The South Siberian race itself is a transitional race between Caucasians and Mongoloids. There are Kazan Tatars with a pronounced Mongoloidity, there are Kazakhs with a pronounced Caucasoid. I always distinguish a Tatar from a Slav. Even if he is Russified and Orthodox.

          About Poles and ON - there I have sentences that are different in meaning. On the territory of modern Poland, the Horde significantly influenced the noble system. There are dofiga "Tatar" families in the gentry.
          In Belarus and Lithuania, "Tatars" were servicemen, very simple. They did not have "show-off" like the Murzas, of which there were in abundance among the Poles. And if the Catholicized Tatars in Poland until the 20th century retained their cultural identity and memories of Tatar origin, then those who were in Lithuania and Belarus by the 20th century were absolutely assimilated among the local population. This is now the presence of the Horde there is imperceptible, and several centuries ago everyone knew about them. And now the remnants of the "Tatars" do not even know a single word in Tatar. They completely merged with the local peoples, like the Finno-Ugric peoples with the Russians.
          And the Poles, even by the time of World War II, had "Tatar" squadrons in the army. There, among the Polonized Horde, there really are those clans that were considered respected by the steppe inhabitants. Kiyat clan, for example (from this clan came the clan of Genghis Khan, Mamai, Glinsky). By the way, the kiyats did not pay taxes in any state that belonged to the Horde. When in the Russian Empire all the nobles were obliged to pay taxes, in my opinion, only the Glinskys declared that they had not paid anything to anyone since the time of Chinggis, and voluntarily renounced their nobility. Well, that's by the way.
          1. 0
            3 July 2013 10: 28
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Tatars, like most other Turks, belong to the South Siberian (Turanian) race. The Türks are not Caucasians, nor Mongoloids, although there are various phenotypes close to both poles. The South Siberian race itself is a transitional race between Caucasians and Mongoloids. There are Kazan Tatars with a pronounced Mongoloidity, there are Kazakhs with a pronounced Caucasoid.

            E1b1b = 2,4; N2 = 4,8; N1 = 18,3; R1a = 34,1; R1b = 8,7; I1 = 0,8; I2 = 2,4; J2 = 10,5. Mongoloid haplogroups C and Q amount to about 5%. These are the facts. Everything else is water.

            Quote: Marek Rozny
            About Poles and ON - there I have sentences that are different in meaning. On the territory of modern Poland, the Horde significantly influenced the noble system. There are dofiga "Tatar" families in the gentry.

            Just do not confuse ON and Poland. These are different states, and even when they were united into a confederation called the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, a demarcation between them continued up to customs posts on the border. The Confederation turned into a single state right in time for its first section.
            1. Marek Rozny
              0
              3 July 2013 11: 33
              Quote: Spade
              E1b1b = 2,4; N2 = 4,8; N1 = 18,3; R1a = 34,1; R1b = 8,7; I1 = 0,8; I2 = 2,4; J2 = 10,5. Mongoloid haplogroups C and Q amount to about 5%.

              Haplogroups and phenotype are practically unrelated. The Kyrgyz and Altai people look more Mongolian than Kazakhs on their faces, and their dominant haplogroup is like the Russians R1a.
              I am from the Argyn clan, and although a mild Mongoloid, nevertheless, I am almost a typical Kazakh high-cheeked muzzle. And according to the haplogroup - G1 (the same haplogroup in the Terek Cossacks, in one Ossetian clan and in Iran a little). In addition, there are argyns R1b. The Kazakhs-Argyns have no other haplogroups (and this is the second largest genus among Kazakhs; and until the 30s of the 20th century it was the largest genus among Kazakhs) Kazakh-Kipchaks from the Middle Zhuz (aka "Polovtsy") have haplogroup R1a ... Etc.
              Among the Türks, "Mongolian" haplogroups C and Q are not dominant. These haplogroups are found in Eastern Kazakhs.
              Quote: Spade
              Just do not confuse ON and Poland.

              Damn, I'm not confusing. I said that these are two different proposals. "There were many prominent Jewish cultural figures in Russia. Many Jews settled in Kazakhstan." Do you understand me? Although it was necessary to enter some additional word in the second sentence, for example, "ON also many Tatars settled. "
          2. 0
            3 July 2013 22: 31
            With the Tatars, not everything is clear, where is that natural massif (country, geographical unit) Tataria - from which the self-name "Tatars" originated?
  23. 0
    30 June 2013 17: 41
    Quote: Nvalexandr
    But unlike the historian, they clearly prove their version.

    An intelligible explanation is not a proof of the truth.
    At one time, people clearly explained that the Earth is flat.
    Fomenko is clearly worth a lot of money. Someone wants to deprive our people of history by slipping him a pseudo-story. Fomenkovshchina littered with shelves of bookstores. His writings were published in tens of thousands of copies. Published as a gift, with color pictures and glossy covers. At the same time, serious historical literature is not available. All the signs that Fomenkovism is simply being imposed on the people, like drug dealers are imposing a drug.
    One hundred percent that Fomenko himself does not believe in his writings. He simply cuts the loot, rows it with a shovel and grins at those who consider him a historian.
    1. -2
      30 June 2013 19: 37
      Quote: Sour
      An intelligible explanation is not a proof of the truth.
      At one time, people clearly explained that the Earth is flat.

      This is about a traditional story. The knowledge that the Earth was flat was in line with generally accepted science.
      Quote: Sour
      Someone wants to deprive our people of history by slipping him a pseudo-story.

      They change one deception for another, the truth is neither there nor there.
    2. -1
      1 July 2013 12: 42
      There is a famous phrase usually attributed to Goebbels: "The more monstrous the lie, the sooner they will believe in it." To paraphrase it, we can say: "The more fantastic the inventions, the more difficult it is to refute them."
      If, for example, there is a "scientist" who made the "discovery" that Genghis Khan was an alien who possessed extraterrestrial superknowledge and super-ingenuity to fight, then how can a normal historian refute this fact? No way. There are no documents proving that Genghis Khan is not an alien who flew from Alpha Centauri. Testimonies from the Mongolian maternity hospital, where the future conqueror was born or from the registry office, alas, have not survived.
      So the Fomenkovites shuffle history like a deck of cards, find similar historical events, similar historical characters and, on the basis of a very superficial similarity, declare them identical, construct some kind of their own bizarre history. And, of course, there are many fans to read these fascinating "fantasy".
      1. +1
        2 July 2013 12: 26
        Quote: alebor
        Evidence from the Mongolian hospital, where the future conqueror was born, or from the registry office, alas, has not been preserved.

        Wow! Sorry!laughing And what is generally preserved from the great Mongol empire ?! Or are the aliens working here under the leadership of Fomenko and Nosovsky ?!
  24. 0
    30 June 2013 19: 53
    Fomenkovtsy attack! Cool down already, think with your head, not with the brains of the lunatics!
    1. aleshka1987
      +2
      30 June 2013 20: 28
      Here is the result! I wrote about this above, the work of the pests of Nosovsky-Fomenko is obvious! Now, if a person somewhere casts doubt on the official version of the story, then they hang a label on him as a Fomenkovite and shout: "Go away, you fool!" Sly, yeah ...
    2. +2
      30 June 2013 21: 04
      Quote: Nayhas
      Fomenkovtsy attack! Cool down already, think with your head, not with the brains of the lunatics!

      Then call us "Lomonosovites", he also rejected the Scaliger chronology and the history of Russia, written by the Germans. And even one such "historian" broke his nose.
      1. Marek Rozny
        0
        3 July 2013 20: 11
        Lomonosov did not reject the existing chronology. He was an opponent of the Norman theory of the origin of Russian statehood. That's all. Well, the complexes he had before the Germans. He wanted to say that there were no German-speaking Vikings in Russia, they say, we ourselves were with a mustache.
        And about the chronology, he did not even speak. So do not fit it into your supporters.
        1. 0
          3 July 2013 22: 34
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Well, the complexes he had before the Germans.

          Isaac Newton also had complexes? Or do you have only such "notorious" Russians? Something more essential than nonexistent complexes do you have?
  25. 0
    1 July 2013 07: 46
    Only the Church remained the stronghold of the Russian people. A church that was not touched by the Mongols, which "even the gates of hell cannot overcome."

    This expression is true to this day.
    Not without reason for the liberals of the Russian Orthodox Church - the goal number 1.
    1. 0
      2 July 2013 20: 25
      I’m not a liberal, but I don’t see ZAO ROC for what to love. Although the head office of this firm in Moscow is very beautiful. The truth was built for some reason at the expense of the state.
      1. Slav
        0
        21 July 2013 11: 16
        Quote: Andrew-001
        I’m not a liberal, but I don’t see ZAO ROC for what to love.

        So all liberal thought begins with this.
  26. +1
    1 July 2013 11: 34
    Quote: Sour
    Fomenko is clearly worth a lot of money. Someone wants to deprive our people of history by slipping him a pseudo-story. Fomenkovshchina littered with shelves of bookstores. His writings were published in tens of thousands of copies. Published as a gift, with color pictures and glossy covers. At the same time, serious historical literature is not available

    Well, so tell me where to buy their books. With difficulty I bought one in Yalta, in Moscow I was looking for, St. Petersburg ...
    Thought movie discs can be bought - no! Available online only!
    By the way, the book is published very simply. It is in no way comparable to "serious historical literature" which for some reason you cannot get! To avoid unnecessary advertising, write to me in a personal where I can buy perfectly published books by Fomenko and Nosovsky, and I will tell you where to buy serious, in your opinion, historical literature!
  27. +2
    1 July 2013 11: 58
    And here I have one question - so why are Fomenko and Nosovsky so terrible ?! These are the only accusations against them that have never been heard! There was even an article on this resource stating that they were scamming the affairs of our ancestors! It is not strange at the same time that they are accused of accusations of Russian nationalism, etc. In the discussion of this article, they are generally compared with hucksters and the plague of drug addiction !!!!!
    Well, fear God, gentlemen and comrades, well, where and where did you get this. Thanks to many years of work, scientists presented to the scientific world a new chronology, quite justified! All that they call for further impartial research and scientific discussion! What is the answer ?! And in response, Academician Rybakov throws their books out of the window of the student audience! (Such an intellectual). By the way, he wrote slander to them back when the USSR was still in his opinion - the research of scientists contradicted the works of Marxism of Leninism in this direction!
    The Communists, however, were not stupid, and didn’t begin to cover the activities of Fomenko, they even allowed to print in special publications and continue to work!
    So here. ladies and gentlemen, fishermen, be already intelligent people, and before you groan so that you don’t pass for foolishness by ignorance, take the trouble to really get acquainted with the subject of okhali! Maybe you will have interesting arguments! And then after all, you can blame treason so soon! Already addicted to drug addiction! What historical parallels in this connection do not come up in memory ?!