Military Review

Do not forget ...

254
On the anniversary of June 22, our Euro-historians ask “a simple question”: “... was not Stalin himself preparing for an attack on Hitler?” So, with “simple questions”, they begin to put on the same level Stalin and Hitler. it historical The “discovery” was made recently in Europe, and, as we see, it is already being promoted to Russia.


Do not forget ...


Comparative construction: although “Hitler attacked,” Stalin was probably “preparing to attack,” putting them on an equal footing, both logically and lexically. Such an understanding of the Second World War by Europe invades our historical consciousness, as Hitler once invaded, suddenly and without a declaration of war.

And looting begins on our history already on the territory of Russia, a perverted view on the course of the Great Patriotic War is imposed. Marauders forget to answer another "simple question": what was the international situation before the Second World War?

Recall that England and France are colonial empires: democracy in the metropolitan area is complemented by colonial plunder; in the USA, open discrimination of the Negro population, Latin America is declared its “backyard”, and the “politics of gunboats” is applied to it.

By the 1941, France was already defeated, Germany was leading an “air war” with England, shutting it up on the islands, and it had a strategic initiative. The United States has the status of "non-military ally" of England. Japan waits in the Far East. The war between Germany and the USSR is inevitable: in Europe, no one but them is left. The question is only in the timing and how Hitler will "squeeze" England?

Today's strategists reasoning about the “friendship of dictators” strangely forget that the hatred of fascist Germany to the USSR was explained not only by its anti-communist ideology, but also by the ideology of racial superiority, that one of the “dictators” considered himself a superman and his counterpart a “subhuman”.

But if war is inevitable, then what is the reasoning of the “Rezun-Suvorovs” about a good “defensive” and bad “offensive” war? Nothing, if only they do not want to cast doubt on the very fact of the aggression of fascist Germany. For this they make a new "discovery": Stalin was preparing for an offensive war! But any preparation for war can, if desired, be declared preparation for both defense and attack: a purely defensive strategy is always fraught with defeat, for you can only win by advancing.

Yes, Stalin was preparing for war, and there is no discovery in this: and in the pre-war songs it was sung that the Red Army men would beat the enemy on its own territory. And there is no crime in this, but there is common sense. Under such conditions, any head of state must prepare for a war that includes offensive actions. Critics of Stalin seem to have forgotten about the “Mein Kampf,” the fascist bible, which, by the way, is in itself a sufficient basis for an offensive war.

If war is inevitable, then what's bad even in the first blow to the enemy? Nothing, if not violated the customs of war, did not violate the peace treaty, that is, did not commit an oath to crime. Peoples have been fighting for a long time, and customs of war have developed. That is, it is necessary to denounce a peace treaty, if it exists, and you can present an ultimatum, declare war - and “come on you!”

Hitler committed precisely oath crime, without denouncing the peace treaty with the USSR, and then attacked without declaring war, which was stated in the TASS statement: “About the perfidious (with a peace treaty) and without declaring war” attack by fascist Germany. Thus, the criminality of the attack of Hitler is in violation of the peace treaty and perfidy, and the “possible attack” of Stalin, but with the denunciation of the peace treaty and the declaration of war, would be a completely legitimate first blow.

We pose the question differently: did Stalin have a plan for a perfidious, without a declaration of war, an attack on Germany, similar to Hitler's? On this occasion there is not a single document, not a single certificate. But there are words of Stalin himself that the USSR intends to take seriously the peace treaty with Germany, told by him to Ribbentrop. Therefore, no comparison of the "possible" attack of Stalin with Hitler's perfidious attack of 22 Jun - in general can not be, and there is no such board on which Stalin and Hitler could be put.

Recall the diplomatic context - what was the price of the non-aggression peace treaties in that historical period? In 1938, England and France in Munich betrayed Czechoslovakia, then quite faithlessly did not fulfill the contract on guarantees of its borders (they did not terminate them beforehand). Both England and France had non-aggression pacts with Hitler. In the 1939 year after Hitler’s attack on Poland, the Anglo-French allies betrayed Poland, “fulfilling” the treaty obligations with it by Strange War, without military action with Hitler. Today they explain their betrayal by the “policy of appeasement,” and this is the same false fig leaf as their Strange War with Hitler. In principle, these are all the same oaths as the Hitler 22 of June, the European trend of the time.

With such a diplomatic background, could Stalin consider a non-aggression pact with Germany (Molotov-Ribbentrop) as a guarantee for his entire 10-year period? Of course not. But he seemed to think that even a formality would be observed by Hitler - a peace treaty was declared or a war was declared, as in the case of Poland. It was in this that Stalin was wrong, so he seemed to wait and hesitated, hoping that the military action on the morning of June 22 was a provocation, and you can extend the peaceful respite given by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact to re-equip the country.

We have to remember well that 22 June 1941 was not a declaration of war that wars can start treacherously, but for some reason Europe today wants to make it forgetful.
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  1. Sakhalininsk
    Sakhalininsk 24 June 2013 07: 25 New
    32
    Article +. I completely agree with the author regarding the slanderous squeals of Western false historians and their homegrown freaks.
    1. kosmos44
      kosmos44 24 June 2013 09: 41 New
      22
      What a fashion, to depict these people together according to a Western pattern. We should be ashamed.
      1. Gari
        Gari 24 June 2013 12: 23 New
        10
        Quote: kosmos44
        What a fashion, to depict these people together according to a Western pattern. We should be ashamed.

        You can’t even put it close
      2. mansur
        mansur 24 June 2013 16: 13 New
        18
        Oh, comrade Stalin, how are you missing our country!
        1. Turik
          Turik 25 June 2013 01: 31 New
          +5
          I read a nasty book a year ago by V. Rezun, called "Icebreaker". The structure of this opus is approximately as follows:
          1st pages: presentation of real and well-known facts. There is no point in arguing with them, all the events described here are true.

          Part 2: Wildest anti-Soviet with references to Solzhenitsyn and other "figures".

          The 3rd is the main part: the author’s free essays on the selected subject. Each page has an average of 6-8 errors and misrepresentations.

          The goal is simple: to dull the reader’s attention in the first pages and to boil open frankness in subsequent chapters.
      3. wulf66
        wulf66 25 June 2013 12: 31 New
        +5
        This mod has not appeared today:
        "Our Russian liberal is, first and foremost, a lackey and is just watching how to clean his boots for someone." F.M.Dostoevsky.
        1. Turik
          Turik 25 June 2013 19: 05 New
          0
          Although I am an intellectual, I am not a liberal.
  2. Renat
    Renat 24 June 2013 07: 40 New
    22
    Trying to whitewash the brown plague? For many years, a star-striped plague poisons the whole world and nothing is all white and fluffy. I do not see any difference between Nazism and the bearers of democracy.
    1. redwar6
      redwar6 24 June 2013 12: 51 New
      +4
      I will answer with the words of our fifth column: “The Germans have a prettier form” (This is when compared with the Tan).
      1. unclevad
        unclevad 24 June 2013 15: 09 New
        +4
        History has no subjunctive mood. Poor Hitler HAD to attack the USSR so that Stalin would not attack him. This I hear more often. But why did Hitler before this, “as if walking”, crushed the whole of Europe for himself and amassed troops on the border of the USSR. Only the abnormal will look at it through his fingers and not prepare retaliatory measures. It is clear that the British, with their resourcefulness, managed to turn the direction of the blow from themselves and not become the island of the Reich hegemony. The bad thing is that Stalin firmly fulfilling the terms of the contract did not give an order of readiness. The number of victims could be slightly less. People's Commissar of the Navy N.G. Kuznetsov June 22, 1941 on his own initiative gave the order to bring the fleet on alert and kept it. It is good that we finally understood the seriousness of this issue and issued this law.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 24 June 2013 15: 16 New
          +2
          There was such an order to bring troops into full combat readiness a week before the start. Engage more closely with this issue! Hint, there was a group of Germanophiles generals
        2. pavlo
          pavlo 24 June 2013 15: 43 New
          +5
          Kuznetsov did not do this on his own initiative, but by order from above, he even wrote about it in his memoirs !!!
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 24 June 2013 15: 49 New
            -1
            And I'm talking about the same thing! Unfortunately, there are "stubborn" personalities, old people, there's nothing to be done!
        3. Snoop
          Snoop 26 June 2013 05: 15 New
          0
          Do you think that any commander of a military district or fleet can, on his own initiative, understand the troops entrusted to him by alarm and put them on full alert?
          If we take the memoirs of Kuznetsov himself, then he caught Zhukov and Tymoshenko for drafting directive No. 1, and then he ordered by telephone to bring the fleet on alert No. 1, saying that he would duplicate the order with a directive.
          Interestingly, last year I remembered an article in the Red Star about June 22, the official historian is already making the version that there was still a directive on putting troops on full alert on June 18, 41. A directive number 1 is duplicative and complementary. And before, historians only laughed at Mukhin and Mortirosyan.
    2. Garrin
      Garrin 24 June 2013 16: 32 New
      +1
      Quote: Renat
      Trying to whitewash the brown plague? For many years, a star-striped plague poisons the whole world and nothing is all white and fluffy. I do not see any difference between Nazism and the bearers of democracy.

      In my opinion, there is a difference. Pillows are more cynical than fascists. Hitler was, is and will be the ENEMY, and these, hiding behind the ideals of "democracy" bomb and genocide civilians.
      1. MG42
        MG42 24 June 2013 19: 20 New
        +2
        Quote: Garrin
        Pillows are more cynical than fascists. Hitler was, is and will be the ENEMY, and these, hiding behind the ideals of "democracy" bomb and genocide civilians.

        I don’t remember anything except Guantanamo Bay and the prisons in Iraq, which does not make sense to compare with Auschwitz or Dachau, genocide = destruction based on national, ethnic, racial and religious. Obama himself is a Negro = president here it is democracy <joke> wink who were pressed by the puppeteer in America in the 20th century ..
        At the mattress pad <black>> bombardment of Japan with nuclear bombs and the use of chemical weapons in Vietnam. As for the Germans, they used it since the First World War, and what is cynical about? burn people in stoves and poison in gas chambers or use in medical experiments, if there is something for modern democratists in this spirit? Sense of comparing in this way is not too smart? Hiding behind the slogans, the Germans were also hiding behind their own ..
        Yes, horseradish radish is not sweeter, but Heinrich Himler is not among.
        1. aviator_IAS
          aviator_IAS 24 June 2013 23: 58 New
          0
          Quote: MG42
          I don’t remember anything except Guantanamo Bay and the prisons in Iraq, which does not make sense to compare with Auschwitz or Dachau, genocide = destruction based on national, ethnic, racial and religious.


          After all, now is the 21st century. Just the methods have changed. The murder has become more technological. Tomahawks, UAB, drones. And the striped concentration camps are not needed now, it's already old. They themselves have applied the term since Vietnam to bomb them into the stone age (bomb in the Stone Age) thereby turning entire countries into a camp.
          1. MG42
            MG42 25 June 2013 00: 15 New
            +3
            Quote: aviator_IAS
            After all, now is the 21st century. Just the methods have changed. The murder has become more technological.

            April 22, 1915. World War I seemed to take a break: both sides enjoyed the lull. At five o’clock in the evening, sentries of the Algerian regiment of the French army noticed a strange green cloud. The French knew that the Germans began fighting with a smoke screen, and the unusual color of the clouds was considered some kind of German innovation. The last thing the French managed to notice was wet white scarves on the faces of the attackers. The Algerian regiment of the French troops was destroyed without a single shot. On that day, German troops threw Entente positions with toxic gas cylinders. The victims of this silent attack were 15 thousand poisoned, 5 thousand of them died. From April 1915 years, combat poison has become a weapon of mass destruction and mass use. The use of chemical warfare agents has turned all ideas about modern warfare upside down. All developed countries are drawn into the chemical arms race.

            The Germans were innovators and knew a lot about this business ..
            Quote: aviator_IAS
            And the striped concentration camps are not needed now, it's already old.

            counter-question and who needs them now in the 21st century? Have people become more humane? as for WMD, so in 1915 above
            Quote: aviator_IAS
            They themselves have used the term since Vietnam to bomb them into the stone age

            In Vietnam, napalm was also used, burning everything and Agent Orange chemical victims to date, over a million people. But still, it’s incorrect to compare “Uncle Sam” with Heinrich Himmler .. IMHO, and about the ideology and even occultism in the 3rd Reich, especially with regard to the term "genocide"? which I actually did not agree with Igor.
  3. mogus
    mogus 24 June 2013 07: 52 New
    +8
    With the minds that are there, we will not do anything. It is necessary to prevent this from happening.
    If war is inevitable, then what's bad even in the first strike on the enemy? They didn’t violate the customs of war, didn’t violate the peace treaty, that is, didn’t
    oath of crime.
    I read somewhere the recollections of the Great Patriotic War veteran who went to Israel, so he wondered why the USSR was not the first to strike — who knows what happened if we were the first to strike. Actually, the Israelis are doing this now with good success (hurray patriots, please argue the cons / kicks, if any).
    1. Rider
      Rider 24 June 2013 11: 28 New
      10
      Quote: mogus
      Actually, the Israelis are doing this now with good success.


      Well, how do you not understand!?
      after all, true democracy (TM) ALWAYS has the right to a preemptive attack.
      and only bloody dictatorships have to respond blow to blow.
      1. Trapperxnumx
        Trapperxnumx 24 June 2013 14: 50 New
        +3
        Quote: Rider
        Quote: mogus
        Actually, the Israelis are doing this now with good success.


        Well, how do you not understand!?
        after all, true democracy (TM) ALWAYS has the right to a preemptive attack.
        and only bloody dictatorships have to respond blow to blow.

        Well said!!!
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 24 June 2013 16: 41 New
      0
      Quote: mogus
      he wondered why the USSR was not the first to strike — who knows what happened if we were the first to strike.

      In order to strike first, it is necessary to preempt in deployment, and the USSR could not do this because of the large distances, in comparison with Europe.
  4. Dima190579
    Dima190579 24 June 2013 08: 24 New
    +5
    You can’t see the truth, but you cannot hide it.
  5. Tatar
    Tatar 24 June 2013 08: 25 New
    +5
    Really Stalin did not know that there would be a war, how stupid it was, could he not be the first to speak out against the Germans, for example, on June 20, attacking the enemy. Yes, all this is possible, but it’s understandable if the first to cross the border, the USSR was declared the aggressor. and maybe retreated only to make the Anglo-Saxons really afraid that after the alliance Hitler would move to England and America, therefore, maybe the advance on the offensive was slow ..... these are just assumptions.
    1. avt
      avt 24 June 2013 09: 30 New
      +3
      Quote: Tatar
      Really, Stalin did not know that there would be a war, how stupid it was, could he not be the first to speak out against the Germans, for example, on June 20,

      Much has been said on this subject, naturally knew, naturally prepared and didn’t want a war. Here again, the liberoids squeal the old record long ago refuted by the actual materials of historians working with archival documents and not like mlechins with their own glitches. This is a simple fact that says a lot - when the troops are preparing for in war they need theater maps. So in the Red Army there were maps of YOUR territory up to SMOLENSK. That is, the General Staff planned to conduct military operations to such a depth of its territory with a bad war scenario.
      1. Rider
        Rider 24 June 2013 11: 33 New
        +1
        Quote: avt
        .That is, the General Staff planned to conduct military operations at such a depth of its territory with a bad war scenario.


        I will add.

        For a long time, liberoids speculated with the theme "the first attack of the USSR" by the fact that there was no USSR defense plan.
        and just recently this plan was published.

        if anyone is interested:http://alternathistory.org.ua/plan-oborony-sssr-1941-goda-v-sluchae-napadeniya-g
        ermanii


        (comments are very interesting there)
        1. SIT
          SIT 24 June 2013 23: 02 New
          0
          Quote: Rider
          For a long time, liberoids speculated on the topic “the first Soviet attack” by the fact that the USSR defense plan was missing. And just recently this plan was published.

          By your link, you can find the organization scheme for strengthening the 3rd line areas, and not the USSR defense plan. There, in the comments, the men give what these URs were armed with. This is a cross between a museum and a scrap metal warehouse. It is clear that these SDs were not the basis of the plan of the Red Army command to repel aggression. Breaking spears and throwing feces can be done endlessly until a plan of Barbaross and a similar document with the same level of elaboration by the General Staff of the USSR are laid down. The Red Army could not have such a plan. Here it is necessary to compare.
          1. Rider
            Rider 24 June 2013 23: 11 New
            +1
            Quote: SIT

            By your link, you can find the organization scheme for strengthening the 3rd line areas, and not the USSR defense plan.


            Can we read?
            to analyze?

            and so quote:On May 15, 1941, the chief of the General Staff of the Red Army, G. Zhukov, wrote (by hand and in one copy) the document that later became famous: "Considerations for the strategic deployment plan of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in case of war with Germany and its allies." This plan, presented to Stalin on May 24, provided for a preemptive strike against the German-Romanian-Hungarian troops unfolding at the borders of the USSR. It was not accepted for execution, but on the other hand, the copy that came to us contains an admonition that was surprising for Vatutin’s hand: “At the same time, it is necessary to speed up the construction of fortified areas in every way, begin the construction of fortified areas at the rear line of Ostashkov, Pochep and provide for the construction of new fortified areas in 1942. on the border with Hungary, as well as continue the construction of fortified areas along the line of the old state border. "

            and now tell me WHY TO START CONSTRUCTION OF A BREAKFAST IF WE GO TO START A WAR?

            I remind you that the Wehrmacht did not do such a thing.
            1. SIT
              SIT 24 June 2013 23: 27 New
              0
              Quote: Rider
              able to read? analyze?

              Any Armed Forces should have a plan of action in the event of a war with a potential enemy. In Nazi Germany, this is Barbaross’s plan. Where can I see a similar plan of the USSR of the same period? Not a scheme of fortified areas, where there are no half of the signatures, including those of the People’s Commissar of Defense and the beginning of the General Staff, but a complete plan indicating the units and subunits, their starting positions, extension routes, provision of fuel and lubricants and ammunition, etc. etc. Here is a comparison of such plans of the USSR and Germany in a post-factum command-staff game that may shed light on the failures of 1941.
              1. Rider
                Rider 24 June 2013 23: 33 New
                0
                Quote: SIT
                Any Armed Forces should have a plan of action in the event of a war with a potential enemy.


                Well, in this case, show the plan of the attack of the USSR on Germany.
                1. SIT
                  SIT 25 June 2013 09: 55 New
                  0
                  Quote: Rider
                  Well, in this case, show the plan of the attack of the USSR on Germany.

                  Why must attacks !? The plan is the plan. What exactly was planned can be said by reading the document. Now there’s nothing to talk about and throwing feces. Nobody saw the USSR plan for 1941, but everyone is discussing. How can I say anything about something that I have not seen in my eyes !?
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 25 June 2013 10: 29 New
                    0
                    google: a plan to repel possible 1940 aggression under the leadership of Schaposhnikov.

                    Well, for all who BELIEVELY believe the Reason
                    here is such a reference http://alternathistory.org.ua/sushchestvuet-li-u-rezuna-i-rezunistov-zakonchenna
                    ya-istoricheskaya-teoriya


                    I advise you to pay attention to komenty.
                    1. SIT
                      SIT 25 June 2013 11: 02 New
                      0
                      Quote: Rider
                      Well, for all who BELIEVELY believe the Reason

                      Well, what does Rezun have to do with it? I do not consider semi-fiction. I want to look at the documents of the General Staff of the USSR, which should have been by definition. In your link, there is again a polemic with his Icebreaker, etc. The author of the article writes on the one hand that after reviewing Barbaross’s plan, one can make an unambiguous conclusion about Germany’s intentions, and further says that unfortunately it is impossible to study our similar documents. How can this be !? There is a plan for the vanquished, but no plan for a winner !? Well, any General Staff cannot have a plan !! The 1940 plan that you mention was supposed to be adjusted for 1941. Take this plan and the Barbaross plan. And that’s it! The end to all discussions and rumors. Why so far no one has done this, and instead, endless discussions are underway on Rezun’s fabrications?
                      1. Rider
                        Rider 25 June 2013 11: 21 New
                        0
                        Quote: SIT
                        The 1940 plan you mention was supposed to be adjusted for 1941


                        he was corrected by the movement of armies in the Dnieper and Lviv.

                        read comments, everything is much more intelligibly explained there.

                        Well, here's a little about Shaposhnikov’s plan and its adjustment:In May - June 1941, the 19th, 21st and 22nd armies from the North Caucasus, Volga and Ural military districts, the 25th rifle corps from the Kharkov Military District were transferred by rail to the Western Dvina and Dnieper rivers. , as well as the 16th Army from the Trans-Baikal Military District to Ukraine, as part of the Kiev Special Military District.
                        from the memoirs of Vasilevsky.

                        http://www.marshals-victory.senat.org/BiblioFund/10.html

                        I bow for a sim, I'm tired of being your nanny.
                        if you don’t want to search on your own, then I’m not your guide.
          2. Snoop
            Snoop 26 June 2013 05: 32 New
            0
            So far only known "ON THE BASIS OF STRATEGIC DEPLOYMENT OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE USSR". Signed by the chief of the General Staff of the CA Shaposhnikov. By the way, no one canceled them. There, in principle, everything is there. Only now the Red Army acted not from these considerations. In fact, the military leadership of the USSR took a counterattack. And according to Shaposhnikov’s plan, an active defense of the borders was envisaged. Later, this plan was redone, some nuances, and the new chief of the General Staff Meretskov already signed. The plan is defensive and clearly not a plan of treacherous attack. Everywhere there are words - "actively defend our borders firmly with active defense during the concentration of troops" .... "prevent the invasion of German troops on the territory of the USSR." And then counterattacks.
      2. Roll
        Roll 24 June 2013 11: 36 New
        -7
        Did Stalin prepare an attack on Germany. I think I cooked, only this can explain the beginning of the war and Rezun is right here. Many aphors pretend that they only know the truth. Who knew the truth has long gone. What is the main signal of the outbreak of war. This is a radio signal. In Germany, it was a Dortmund radio signal. after which aggression began. If there had been another signal from Berlin, there would have been no aggression on June 22, and we now also wondered if Hitler would like to attack us on June 22. But the radio signal comes in a few hours before the aggression, and if aggression is planned later, then guessing who wanted to attack anyone is pointless.
        1. Roll
          Roll 24 June 2013 11: 43 New
          -3
          wassat The question must be posed differently: could the USSR attack Germany first and it would be better than the scenario that occurred on June 22, 1941. Yes, the USSR could attack first, and its troops were concentrated for attack, and not for defense, in contrast to Finland, which was preparing precisely for defense. If you read Zhukov’s memoirs and see how the USSR attacked Japan in August. Army commanders received orders for an attack in 5 days, division commanders in 3 days of regiments per day. The conclusion 5 days before the war is impossible to say whether it will start or not, especially since the main sign of the radio signal is given a few hours before the aggression.
          1. Victor Kamenev
            24 June 2013 12: 04 New
            +4
            Who said that "the troops were concentrated to attack"? And how is it generally uniquely determined?
            This completely contradicts the strategic situation in the USSR: the rearmament of the army has just begun. To concentrate troops for an attack in the process of rearmament is utterly stupid; our troops were on the defensive, but the defenses were not fully prepared, due to the transfer of the border.
            1. Roll
              Roll 24 June 2013 12: 10 New
              -3
              wassat And why the main grouping was concentrated near Lviv, from there to attack the very thing, the direct road to Czechoslovakia, and there would be no sense of defense there, which showed the beginning of the war. And then re-equipment is an ongoing process. For example, from a fighter and 15 to i16 to lag3 and so on.
              1. Petrovich
                Petrovich 24 June 2013 18: 06 New
                +4
                Again, Rezunov’s ears, pointed peaked ears of ears stick out. And what was such a major grouping concentrated near Lviv? Basic in relation to what? For a substantive conversation, I’ll ask you to study materials on the number of divisions of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army for the period of interest to us, the number and location of units of both sides, tactics in defense and offensive. And then you can talk for the Lviv ledge.
              2. uwzek
                uwzek 25 June 2013 22: 46 New
                0
                Which group? These are cropped military units, actually just guarded warehouses of the NZ, in the event of a war, their main task is to wait for the arrival of replenishment. In the early days of the war, this weapon and equipment came to the Germans. In our country it’s more common to say that they bombed the earth. The fleet, for example, was mobilized, and therefore immediately rebuffed. It’s like a special forces group attacking the guard of an ordinary military unit. Even if they manage to raise the alarm, they still have time to do their job and get away ...
            2. wlad59
              wlad59 24 June 2013 12: 14 New
              0
              "... this is utter nonsense; our troops were on the defensive" - ​​to be a full-blooded tank division 400-500 meters from the border (while the tanks were not buried in the ground, but were in the pits), is that your defense ??? The entire division was destroyed in just a couple of hours, only a few survived.
              1. Rider
                Rider 24 June 2013 12: 21 New
                +2
                Quote: wlad59
                The entire division was destroyed in just a couple of hours, only a few survived


                as I understand it, on the example of ONE division you deduced the postulate about "aggression of the USSR"
                and as far as I remember, this example was given in the book of the rezun.
                1. wlad59
                  wlad59 24 June 2013 12: 29 New
                  +1
                  As well as Marshal of the USSR V.G. Kulikov (recently deceased) who was a participant in these events. And I gave this example only because I live 20 km. from this place. (p. Ustilug, Volyn region. ((and now the question is, what did the tank division in the border strip ?? And by whose order it was located there?
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 24 June 2013 12: 37 New
                    +2
                    Quote: wlad59
                    ((and now the question is, what did the tank division do in the border strip ?? And by whose order was it located there?


                    and I'm in Hebrew, question to question.

                    but why in MAY for 41 years to plan the construction of fortification in the Rzhev Rye?

                    I brought the link above, take the trouble to read.
                    1. IRKUT
                      IRKUT 24 June 2013 15: 42 New
                      +2
                      You need to look at the facts, not assumptions. That is, if the grandmother had a beard, then she would be a grandfather))). Stalin was a man, a bright memory for him. Such an empire created-hoo. And Hitler is American and English extortion. He relied on his masters and screwed up.
                      1. Rider
                        Rider 24 June 2013 15: 54 New
                        0
                        Quote: IRKUT
                        One has to look at the facts, not the assumptions.


                        honestly did not understand your promise.

                        if you are to the point, then here is the post below I gave examples of FACTS.
                        unlike my unfounded opponents.
                      2. IRKUT
                        IRKUT 25 June 2013 10: 12 New
                        +1
                        We pose the question differently: did Stalin have a plan for a perfidious, without a declaration of war, an attack on Germany, similar to Hitler's? On this occasion there is not a single document, not a single certificate. But there are words of Stalin himself that the USSR intends to take seriously the peace treaty with Germany, told by him to Ribbentrop. Therefore, no comparison of the "possible" attack of Stalin with Hitler's perfidious attack of 22 Jun - in general can not be, and there is no such board on which Stalin and Hitler could be put.
                      3. Rider
                        Rider 25 June 2013 10: 32 New
                        +2
                        they are hard to reach.
                        Despite the arguments and figures (I gave them about a dozen references), they look like sectarians.

                        brains are completely turned off, and everything that the great guru said is undeniable true.
                      4. Taoist
                        Taoist 25 June 2013 10: 38 New
                        +2
                        And these sectarians are ... With completely classified mental disorders and a deformed consciousness.

                        General classification of resunoids:

                        A brief introduction to the systematics of resunoids (a manual for young naturalists) (c) Sanitar Zhenya (http://sanitareugen.livejournal.com/2187.html)
                        Resunoid naive. Purely moral and not mentally defective. Just read Rezun and runs to tell everyone the incredible Truth. In a conversation with a competent person, he either heals and becomes a normal lover of military history, or enters the stage of malignant rezunism. Hunting is prohibited.
                        Resonoid stubborn. Classification attribute - the words “But in the main He is right!”
                        Resonoid erudite. He understands his innocence at heart, but does not want to admit it. Gifted with the ability to change his position, not noticing it himself, thanks to which he remains in a happy confidence in his innocence. Useful for honing mastery of evidence.
                        Resonoid is aggressive. Not having the necessary information, to defend his position, he prefers insults to the interlocutor. Useful for training fighting qualities.
                        Resonoid inverted.
                        Resonoid politically biased. He sees in Rezun confirmation of his political views, moreover, the most diverse. Examples are the national Bolshevik Limonov and the Novodvorskaya maiden ... It does not have commercial value.
                        Resonoid economic. The subspecies includes directors, book publishers, television hosts, journalists, etc. It leads a parasitic lifestyle, mimics well.
                        Resonoid unanimous (resunoisteroid). The conflict between Rezun’s texts and the facts cited by him leads to a hysterical defensive reaction (see prof. Svyadoshch, “Neuroses”). The sign - “You will say - Rezun the traitor !!!” emitted when difficulty in argumentation. The object of sports hunting.
                        Resonoid secondary (superresunoid). He creates his concepts by analogy with Rezun, easily, however, moving away from this topic to more lively ones (see Yurovitsky), going to the New Chronology, etc. (c)
              2. wlad59
                wlad59 24 June 2013 20: 44 New
                -2
                Yes, even if in the district of Krasnoyarsk (on the Yenisei) ... I asked the question: what did the tank division in the very border with Germany? (border itself, Zap. Bug river - 25-30 meters wide) Preparing for defense ??? No ... the division was not ready for defense. (and did not prepare) Military science knows only 2 (two) types of military operations: defense and offensive! I repeat the question again, WHY why was the tank division located on the very border with Germany?
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 24 June 2013 21: 24 New
                  0
                  Quote: wlad59
                  I asked the question: what was the tank division doing on the very border with Germany?

                  Do you want to say that the USSR was going to attack the Third Reich by the forces of one division?
                2. wlad59
                  wlad59 25 June 2013 21: 48 New
                  -1
                  Question: are you, or are you pretending? The essence of the article that we are discussing: was the USSR preparing for an attack on Germany in '41 or not? I gave an example of 41 tanks. div. (415 tanks + guns, mortars, tractors, tractors, 682 cars, etc.) which was located on the very border with Germany. In addition: 22 tanks. div was in Brest. (It was completely defeated in the first hours of the war). These armored divisions being on the border, did not prepare for defense. Give me an answer, WHAT were they there for (if they weren’t preparing for defense)? And more .... pay attention to the division numbers!
                3. Aaron Zawi
                  Aaron Zawi 25 June 2013 21: 59 New
                  0
                  First, when did this division appear on the Border? How much time did she have for building not only fortifications, but also barracks, kitchens, baths, workshops, etc.? What forces were these works carried out? The number of draftees in the division, the number of hours of arrival at the fur / water and the number of shooting shells at the crews? Continue questions about the level of combat readiness? And in the General Staff of the Red Army, these data were unlike you.
                  In general, if the General Staff of the Red Army did not prepare the army for war, including the offensive in those international conditions, would such a General Staff be needed?
            3. Rider
              Rider 24 June 2013 21: 35 New
              +1
              Quote: wlad59
              I asked a question:


              so I asked the question, but you preferred to ignore it (like the documents provided by me)
              and they said that many mechanized corps had a 40% shortage of tanks, while those that had a larger percentage of sky-ready (repair) tanks.

              if you think that with such (and by the way other) troops, you can start a war.
              then you see the commander cleaner than Suvorov (the present) and Napoleon.

              but read the documents.
            4. Taoist
              Taoist 24 June 2013 22: 06 New
              +1
              Did you even learn tactics at least to some extent? A lot of battle options. And there may be a lot of reasons for placing parts on a permanent deployment. And the border is not a straight line ... There were (and exist) plans to cover the border. Where there is such a thing as an “operational mechanized reserve” —the outfit of forces is sufficient, for example, to suppress provocations ... We now have a “division” in Transnistria (and even a bunch of tanks and other BTTs in warehouses) —you will also say that we are quiet sadness preparing annexation? To make it clearer, No. this is also not a division. And even the presence of tanks is also not a division ...
            5. Snoop
              Snoop 26 June 2013 05: 38 New
              0
              two types of battle? um .. offensive, defensive .. oncoming .. already three.
          2. SIT
            SIT 24 June 2013 22: 53 New
            0
            Quote: Rider
            but why in MAY for 41 years to plan the construction of a fortification in the Rzhev Ryan? I brought the link above, take the trouble to read.

            Here is from your link:
            A repeated inspection of the UR of the old border was carried out in April-May 1941 by representatives of the General Staff, the People’s Commissariat of Defense and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks. She, in particular, revealed the following:

            "1. The planned measures to complete and modernize the fortifications of the old state border have not yet been carried out due to the need to complete construction work on the fortifications of the new state border by July 1, 1941, but will continue after the deadline ...

            2. Manpower garrisons of the UD are currently not provided. The average number of the garrison is currently no more than 30% of the full-time (actually 13-20%) and cannot be increased due to lack of housing and logistical support ... The regular number of pulbates also does not meet the defense objectives of the fortifications, since it can partially cover no more 60% of the fire structures.

            3. Despite the fact that to strengthen the armament of the UR in 1938-1940. a large number of artillery assets were transferred to their disposal, most of them are obsolete light field tools arr. 1877-1895 without special machines and ammunition. Of the relatively modern artillery means, only 26 76-mm guns of the arr. 1902 and 8 76 mm field guns mod. 1902/30, Of the 200 ordered caponier guns L-17 was not received completely ...

            Installed caponier guns are not fully equipped ... The state of the mechanisms is such that ... fire from them is impossible, and often dangerous for calculation. These guns do not have forms ... Spare parts kits are lost ... There is no proper maintenance of the guns ...

            4. Small guns DOT half make up machine guns outdated design and foreign brands, which are often lacking ammunition.

            Guns of the Russian-Turkish war and defense of Port Arthur, foreign-made machine guns, to which there are no cartridges. Is this the basis of a defense plan?
            1. Rider
              Rider 24 June 2013 23: 06 New
              0
              so this indicates that the SD should have been rebuilt.

              but here you are disingenuous, you have cited data from a comment on the LINE OF THE OLD BORDER (Stalin line)
              and they are given in connection with the fact that NO ONE STALIN LINE DID NOT EXPLODE.
              as some fans of the PREVENTIVE IMPACT claim.
              and the article deals with the third SD along the Ostashkov-Pochep line.

              be careful.
            2. SIT
              SIT 24 June 2013 23: 38 New
              +1
              Quote: Rider
              and the article deals with the third SD along the Ostashkov-Pochep line.

              It turns out the third line of SDs was just not built. The 3nd line was an arms museum of the 2th and early 1th centuries. So everything new and advanced was in the 1941st line. Starting with the order of construction of the Roman legions has always been exactly the opposite. The resistance level should increase, and on the contrary, the enemy will run out of breath. But I repeat all this speculation on scraps of information. Where to see the full-fledged defense plan of the USSR for XNUMX?
            3. Rider
              Rider 24 June 2013 23: 52 New
              0
              Quote: SIT
              It turns out the third line of urs just did not build


              it turns out the 3rd line PLANNED is under construction.
              (42g) there were even estimates.

              on the second line we take the quote you quoted and read in full:The new list of deficiencies was almost identical to that made at the beginning of 1939, and again, once again, the People's Commissariat of Defense made the right conclusions. On May 25, 1941, the next jubilee decree of the government was issued (the tenth since 1932!) On measures to strengthen fortifications on the old and new state borders. On the old border, the deadline for the execution of events was set on October 1, 1941, but nothing was done before the war - all forces were sent to complete the construction of new SD on the Molotov Line.

              but who sabotaged these decisions is another question.

              Quote: SIT
              Where to see the full-fledged defense plan of the USSR for 1941?


              probably in the same place as the plan of the USSR attack on Germany.
  6. Roll
    Roll 24 June 2013 12: 34 New
    -3
    wassat Please, other examples, why Japanese aggression on Pearl Harbor was effective? Because the Amer troops were preparing to attack Japan, if the Amer squadron was preparing for defense and was dispersed in the ports of Amer, Pearl Harbor was impossible. Why was the artillery clock of our artillery so effective on Kursk? Because fascist troops were preparing for the offensive and went to the forefront. At other times, the artillery strike is not effective. And so on there are many examples.
    1. Rider
      Rider 24 June 2013 15: 07 New
      +2
      Quote: Rolm
      Please other examples


      Excuse me, are you all right with logical thinking?

      and in 1812 the French took Moscow because the Kutuzov planned to be in Paris?
      and in the Crimean war? and japanese?
      probably the defense of Port Arthur is a consequence of the aggressive plans of Nicholas 2?
      Don't you think that you are customizing the answer to the condition of the problem?

      in the citadel you contradict yourself,
      we undertook counter-training, BUT NOT GOING TO GO!
      but the Germans just acted according to the charter, artillery attack - offensive.
      I don’t understand why you brought her as an argument.
      if, as “we preempted them, therefore, we won”, then this is stupid, because the Germans were defeated not in the field of counter-training (although it was not in vain) but in the entrance of the most difficult defensive battles, followed by a counter-offensive.

      and finally, to all fans of the THEORY of a preventive attack, I advise you to read the following material.
      he just approaches the tank theme raised at the beginning.
      we are talking about tank troops.
      about those divisions and corps that were supposed to become (in your opinion) a TARAN in a PREVENTIVE OFFENSION in the WEST.

      I hope you read, you will understand that SUCH divisions WASN’T APPEAL.

      http://www.battlefield.ru/soviet-tank-quality-1941.html

      Well, here's the material for you
      The state of the armed forces on the eve of the war
      http://militera.lib.ru/h/1941/02.html
      there is a curious table number 3 there
      Manning of mechanized corps of the western border military districts by the beginning of the war {50}
      I advise you to get acquainted.
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 24 June 2013 16: 57 New
      +2
      Quote: Rolm
      if the Amer’s squadron was preparing for defense and was dispersed in the Amer’s ports, Pearl Harbor was not possible.

      And she was dispersed, the Americans withdrew the aircraft carriers, sacrificing battleships.
      Quote: Rolm
      Please, other examples, why Japanese aggression on Pearl Harbor was effective?

      Rather spectacular.
      Quote: Rolm
      At other times, the artillery strike is not effective.

      The artillery strike is effective if the reconnaissance "said" where to shoot, and what the enemy troops were preparing for there - it doesn’t matter, just the opinion of the amateur.
      1. Roll
        Roll 24 June 2013 21: 29 New
        0
        angry Having sacrificed 8 battleships, and if the sacrifice was great, for those who know how to count the loot of Amers, and then the further outcome of the war, the capture of the islands by the Japanese, that if you believe the movie Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt had to get up from the wheelchair to prove to the Amers that they can Japs to win.
        1. Taoist
          Taoist 24 June 2013 22: 08 New
          +1
          Your post has the keyword "if you believe the movie" ... well, then continue to study military history in Hollywood ... you will find many more discoveries.
  7. Day 11
    Day 11 24 June 2013 13: 04 New
    -10
    Let Rezun even! He is the first who made people THINK!
    1. Rider
      Rider 24 June 2013 15: 21 New
      +4
      Quote: Den 11
      He is the first to make people THINK!


      yes, yes, we know.

      Stalin - a fool, rebuilt all smart.
      The USSR is an aggressor, and Hitler got a little ahead of him.
      Zhukov - a bloody ghoul, bombarding the corpses of German machine gunners.

      And if you read Solzhenitsyn !!!
      so there is complete darkness
      in the Gulag died 100limonov
      40limons perished in the war (THIS IS ONLY THE ARMY) !!!

      if you call it “thinking,” then I am a pass.
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 24 June 2013 15: 40 New
        -2
        Man, you’d reread ALL of my posts! Where did I write that Stalin is an unwise person? I agree about Zhukov. In general, it has become even boring to discuss with you. I am a STALINIST (although I have German roots) and hammer it on your nose ! You just need to get the info from DIFFERENT sources and double-check it with other sources!
        1. Rider
          Rider 24 June 2013 15: 51 New
          +2
          Quote: Den 11
          ! You just need to get the info from DIFFERENT sources and double-check it with other sources!


          "buddy" it's not about infe, it's about INSINUATIONS on her topic.

          here we have a conversation about a tank division standing 500 meters from the state border.
          on the basis of this, a conclusion is drawn that the USSR was preparing for aggression.

          I immediately have a question

          And the rest of the tank divisions were also pulled directly to the border?

          But what about the second and third echelon troops?
          because if you know, then the Wehrmacht (really preparing for aggression) did not have such a stratification.
        2. Day 11
          Day 11 24 June 2013 15: 57 New
          +1
          If you don’t be rude to me, it’s quite possible that a discussion will start with us! For now, I don’t want to talk to you. (Note, I have never insulted you, and I always contacted you with a capital letter and without quotation marks). But my patience is not eternal!
        3. Rider
          Rider 24 June 2013 15: 59 New
          -1
          Quote: Den 11
          If you will not be rude to me


          Paprashu voiced examples of rudeness.
        4. Day 11
          Day 11 24 June 2013 16: 16 New
          -2
          “I’ll voice examples of rudeness to the father” —this type is not rudeness? Eh, you don’t wash your chocks!
        5. Day 11
          Day 11 24 June 2013 20: 02 New
          -2
          Guys, this is only said to this individual! I respect all of you, even those who disagree with me. I could not restrain myself, please forgive.
      2. Rider
        Rider 24 June 2013 16: 27 New
        0
        uv moderators, why deleted the comments of the user Den 11?
        he did not go on insults, and participated in the discussion quite correctly.

        by removing dissent, you are removing the possibility of a dispute.

        I ask you not to be likened to sites like rambler and Moscow echo, where they are sent to a ban for dissent.

        with respect.
  • Setrac
    Setrac 24 June 2013 17: 01 New
    +1
    Quote: Rider
    if you call it “thinking,” then I am a pass.

    Look, Den11 has a Nazi avatar.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 24 June 2013 17: 11 New
      -1
      But how did you determine that it was a Nazi? LCD saw (what class?). Or maybe it’s our SOVIET saboteur (or intelligence officer) by the name, say, Petrov, went to get valuable information for the Soviet command! Once again, How did you determine what is the Nazi?
    2. Setrac
      Setrac 24 June 2013 17: 50 New
      0
      Quote: Den 11
      And how did you determine that it was a Nazi?

      Sleeves are rolled up in accordance with the German charter, and not Russian.
    3. ed1968
      ed1968 24 June 2013 22: 16 New
      +1
      Look now at the Russian guys in the army. Consider all rolling up their sleeves when they can.
    4. Setrac
      Setrac 24 June 2013 23: 10 New
      0
      Quote: ed1968
      Look now at the Russian guys in the army. Consider all rolling up their sleeves when they can.

      We roll up below the elbow, I do not need to look, I folded up my military service.
    5. Day 11
      Day 11 24 June 2013 23: 15 New
      -1
      I explained to you, the man is a scout, masquerading as the Nazis! What is not clear? Was this topic hooked? Can I grind it!
    6. Setrac
      Setrac 24 June 2013 23: 36 New
      0
      Quote: Den 11
      disguised as the Nazis!

      I thought about it. Either the Russian intelligence officer disguises himself as a Nazi, or the German one incorrectly disguises himself as a Red Army soldier. But considering that this is either a drawing or a color photo, then either the German artist, or a photo later, not of wartime, from a film.
    7. Day 11
      Day 11 24 June 2013 23: 50 New
      0
      Excellent! So the question with the avatar is removed?
  • Hleb
    Hleb 25 June 2013 00: 35 New
    0
    Do not listen to him. There are no restrictions below the elbow. There are up to the bottom edge of the pocket. Well, it depends on the sewing of the form


  • Rider
    Rider 24 June 2013 17: 17 New
    0
    can you see his comments?
    they do not appear for me.

    about Ava, I think this is one of the heroes of the movie "Caravan Hunter"
  • Setrac
    Setrac 24 June 2013 17: 53 New
    0
    Quote: Rider
    can you see his comments?

    Look at your blacklist, maybe there?
  • Rider
    Rider 24 June 2013 18: 20 New
    0
    Quote: Setrac
    View your blacklist


    no, the list is blank.

    Dan was probably offended.
    Well ... uh, God be with him.
  • Setrac
    Setrac 24 June 2013 18: 43 New
    0
    Quote: Rider
    Dan was probably offended.
    Well ... uh, God be with him.

    Yes, judging by his words, he sent you to the black list, but don’t worry, he doesn’t write anything useful.
  • Normal
    Normal 24 June 2013 20: 08 New
    +1
    Quote: Rider
    Rider Today, 15:21 PM ↑
    Quote: Den 11
    He is the first to make people THINK!

    yes, yes, we know.

    Stalin - a fool, rebuilt all smart.


    Please tell me, where did Rezun (V. Suvorov) find such a statement? In order to criticize (even the traitor Rezun) you need to know the subject. You do not seem to know him.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 24 June 2013 20: 16 New
      -1
      God sees, I wanted to have a normal discussion with him. I asked this question to him too, but there’s a clinical case!
    2. Normal
      Normal 24 June 2013 22: 34 New
      -2
      Quote: Den 11
      God sees, I wanted to have a normal discussion with him

      In vain. Normal discussion needs normal laughing opponent
  • Roll
    Roll 24 June 2013 21: 22 New
    0
    wassat Why Rezun the traitor whom he betrayed? The GRU is a closed club and they have their own laws, he worked out agents, brought billions to the west, sold some important technologies to the Chinese, handed over the secrets of the Amer embassy in Moscow, cut the slipway of submarines, ruined the factories of the military-industrial complex. Well, the person had the idea of ​​Fix, they could not publish it in Russia, he went to England, not Chelsea to buy, but to write true books, and you are a traitor. These traitors such as General Polyansky have not been seen.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 24 June 2013 21: 59 New
    0
    By the way, yes. He didn’t turn in the NIOD agent. Turn on your head, if he had passed, how long would he live after that? Have you experimented well? -Nonsense, he teaches at the university and doesn’t hide from anyone! He leaked them all kind of fuck what can be expected from Russians. Even the most anti-Rezunovites will not tell you that he passed someone (upbringing!)
  • Black
    Black 24 June 2013 22: 16 New
    0
    Quote: Den 11
    (upbringing!


    What is it! What kind of "upbringing" are you broadcasting here?
    The oath-crime officer must shoot himself. But he writes books, makes little use of the documentary base (or rather doesn’t use it at all), quotes biased memoirs, which in itself require careful source analysis, distort facts, arbitrarily interpret events.
    He is a manipulator and a sharpie !!!
  • Rider
    Rider 24 June 2013 22: 24 New
    0
    Quote: Chen
    Quote: Den 11
    (upbringing!


    I understand that my flattened opponent decided to stand up in defense of the rezun?

    Well, if Rezun was not a traitor, he simply decided to publish some materials that were prohibited for publication in the USSR.
    then how to name a certain Snowden (an agent of the CIA who escaped from the United States and published some incriminating evidence) why the US secret services so eagerly want him, and moreover they accuse him of all sorts of bad things such as betrayal of national interests.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 24 June 2013 22: 34 New
    0
    What are you saying! Who was able to refute his Icebreaker (how many years have passed?). It is not so easy to clean the brains of slag!
  • Taoist
    Taoist 24 June 2013 22: 47 New
    0
    You see, but it is impossible to refute what is not. You begin to refute one nonsense right after it climbs another, etc.
    You are to some extent right that Rezunov’s “creations” made many think ... The only problem is that only a few can really think and most will swallow any lie. Rezun is largely a worthy heir to Goebbels. Remember the "monstrosity of lies"? and the more you deny this lie, the more "virgin minds" begin to think "that there is something in it, if they so fiercely swear about this" ...
  • uwzek
    uwzek 25 June 2013 23: 38 New
    +1
    And why refute it? Ordinary fiction. The followers of his teachings are harmless to cockroaches in a house on the next street. Let's discuss seriously with the Tolkienists.
    Stalin did not have the opportunity to attack Hitler (the desire may have been, and the need was present). There were tanks, but there were no tankers (there were tractor drivers who were supposed to be put into tanks by mechanics-drivers, well, it was possible to prepare loaders quickly, but commanders, gunners?). Artillery? The same calico: battery commanders are math teachers, even know how to count. With infantry in general a pipe. This whole army is virtual, as it is only in mobile plans, military training has been reduced to watching movies ... Then half-wars were plugged with holes by the Kibalchis and peasants, some of which the locomotive saw when they drove to the front. I do this without the slightest disrespect for the memory of the dead. They were not just unfired, but completely uneducated ... That’s why such losses and the three-line until the end of the war are probably more of the same.
  • Black
    Black 24 June 2013 21: 59 New
    0
    Quote: Rolm
    Why Rezun the traitor whom he betrayed?


    He betrayed the homeland. He is an oath-breaker. What, this is not enough ?!
    What do you, in fact, give yourself an account in your words?
  • Day 11
    Day 11 24 June 2013 22: 11 New
    0
    He betrayed his homeland, yes, I can’t argue. But I didn’t
  • Black
    Black 24 June 2013 22: 18 New
    0
    Quote: Den 11
    Betrayed his homeland, yes, I can’t argue.


    Do you think this is not enough? Man brought up?
  • Day 11
    Day 11 24 June 2013 22: 37 New
    0
    I try to be like that. A traitor is a traitor (this is a fact that does not require proof). Just try to cast aside emotions and prove where this lousy lies!
  • Rider
    Rider 24 June 2013 22: 02 New
    0
    Quote: Rolm
    went to England, not Chelsea to buy books truthful write


    Well, everything is clear with you.
    No wonder you attach such a smile.

    and by the way, fans of the rezun to familiarize

    "Icebreaker" - nonsense 2
    http://armor.kiev.ua/wiki/index.php?title=%C2%AB%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BA%D
    0%BE%D0%BB%C2%BB_%E2%80%94_%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4_2
  • Roll
    Roll 25 June 2013 08: 30 New
    0
    fellow In order to refute Rezun, you need to know the truth, but no one except a very narrow circle of people knows the truth, and so one nonsense on the other, although Rezun has convincingly reasoned information, but his critics do not.
  • Rider
    Rider 25 June 2013 09: 32 New
    0
    Quote: Rolm
    although Rezun’s information is convincingly reasoned, but his critics don’t.



    Rezunovsky ravings are convincing only for those who think independently, not only can not, but are not going to.

    For you, rubber icebreakers, like Lenin's voluminous works, have not been read by anyone. and criticism is strictly prohibited.

    I advise you to start thinking with your own head.
  • Taoist
    Taoist 24 June 2013 22: 12 New
    0
    I understand you did not take the oath? So what Rezun did was a violation of the oath (this, unlike a conscript soldier, is consciously and voluntarily)
    So, in the oath there are such words:
    "If I violate my solemn oath, then let me suffer the harsh punishment of Soviet law, the general hatred and contempt of the working people."

    Violation of the oath by the way in all countries and in all laws is interpreted unambiguously.
    So Rezun is the most natural criminal. No options.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 24 June 2013 22: 21 New
    0
    No, my friend, I took the oath. The military school. Somewhere I already told people about myself. I will not repeat. Read my comments. You will find. Regarding the oath, Rezun agrees, I violated! I just wanted to tell you that he did you bastard, but he didn’t break the boundaries
  • Taoist
    Taoist 24 June 2013 22: 31 New
    0
    I suspect that I just could not. I mean, he was not allowed. If a person went to the oath of crime then it is unlikely that he will be restrained by some other brakes. Yes, and special services work there. They also know how ... They will shake out everything that they did not know. By the way, such a joke went to my lieutenant youth ...
    "They caught the spirits of our technician of the aircraft, and so they began to pry out" military secrets "from him ... as soon as they didn’t torture him, he was silent ... American instructors connected, pumped up with any chemistry - he was silent ... In general, they retreated, they threw us into the zindan .. Well, they themselves are curious that such a courageous shuravi was caught ... At night they crept up, look into the pit - and our techie sits, beats his head against the wall and says: "they said to the fool - learn the materiel!"

    So why did the Reason not surrender anyone? The question is pure ...
  • Day 11
    Day 11 24 June 2013 22: 45 New
    0
    Funny. Maybe so. The fact remains that the person is alive
  • Roll
    Roll 25 June 2013 08: 33 New
    0
    angry Rezun left the army in the GRU, and there is another oath, the military is no longer valid. If the GRU sends him as a spy in England, did he break the oath and should shoot himself instead of work?
  • uwzek
    uwzek 25 June 2013 23: 54 New
    0
    Here you find yourself captivated by emotions. The oath has no legal force (even in wartime) - this is just a ritual. A criminal is a violator of the rule of law, and this refers to a specific article of the Criminal Code. There is no such article in the code "Violation of the oath, oath" or similar ... If you introduce this, then it cannot have retroactive force ...
  • Taoist
    Taoist 26 June 2013 01: 09 New
    0
    Who told you such nonsense? For reference: It is after the oath that the Charter and the Law fully apply to the fighter. Could at least use Google ...

    Lawyer comment:

    The military oath is the official oath, its text and the ritual of holding are approved by the Law "On Military Duty and Military Service" and the charters of the Armed Forces. Legally, it has a dual nature. On the one hand, this is a kind of symbolic attribute, and on the other, a legal fact that gives rise to the rights and obligations of military personnel.
  • Snoop
    Snoop 26 June 2013 05: 56 New
    0
    )))) It is from the taking of the oath that the newcomer receives all the rights and obligations of the serviceman. An interesting position is that violation of the oath does not entail legal consequences))))
  • Normal
    Normal 24 June 2013 22: 15 New
    0
    Quote: Rolm
    Why Rezun the traitor


    Not at all because he wrote Icebreaker and other books.
    Traitor because he violated the oath. As an officer, he sided with the enemy.
    Quote: Rolm
    GRU is a closed club and they have their own laws

    Sorry, but the GRU is not a club or even a closed club, but the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces - the foreign intelligence agency of the Ministry of Defense, the central military intelligence intelligence agency.
    The GRU officer is in itself both technology and secrets. It is naive to think that Rezun did not transmit any information to the enemy. Maybe he didn’t know as much as Penkovsky or Gordievsky knew. I didn’t pass as many agents as Kalugin. Nevertheless, he is a traitor in fact, and not in the degree of harm inflicted by the fact of betrayal.

    Quote: Rolm
    Well, the person had the Fix idea, they couldn’t publish it in Russia, he went to England, not Chelsea to buy, but to write true books,


    As for the veracity of Suvorov's books, one can argue for a very long time and to no avail. I personally adhere to the opinion expressed somehow by M. Weller. I don’t remember verbatim, but the point is that Suvorov turned people around about the pre-war and initial periods of the war, and although his theory is full of stretch holes and inconsistencies, after the release of his books the previous reading of history is impossible.
    Den 11 is right; Rezun made many think. I will say more: despite the exposure of many frauds and the refutation of almost all of his allegations, the main ideas of his “Icebreaker” have not been refuted. Numerous critics and antirezunists paradoxically only confirm the correctness of Suvorov in that the idea of ​​the World Revolution was the motive for the actions and goal of Stalin.
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 25 June 2013 06: 35 New
    +1
    Quote: Normal
    About the veracity of the books of Suvorov can argue a very long time and to no avail

    Quote: Normal
    Rezun made many think

    Suvorov, of course, an uncomplicated bastard am But the problem is that our official military historiography did not give clear answers to his insinuations request what And people who read something decent, albeit emasculated by censorship, -Medvedev Brinsky Fedorov Ignatov Vershigora is becoming less and less difficult to oppose.
  • Roll
    Roll 25 June 2013 08: 37 New
    -1
    angry With the transition to the GRU, the military oath ceases to act, since the intelligence officer’s job is to violate the oath and the GRU is a closed club and there its own ideas about honor, unlike army ones.
  • Ruslan67
    Ruslan67 25 June 2013 08: 41 New
    +2
    Quote: Rolm
    With the transition to the GRU, the military oath ceases to act, since the work of the intelligence officer is precisely in violation of the oath

    You didn’t get hit on the battery with your head in childhood? fool If not, it’s a pity - maybe the brains would fall into place
  • Setrac
    Setrac 24 June 2013 16: 47 New
    0
    Quote: Rider
    as I understand it, on the example of ONE division you deduced the postulate about "aggression of the USSR"
    and as far as I remember, this example was given in the book of the rezun.

    The Resunoids have always been so, using the example of individual units, they concluded that the army was "concentrated on the border." Yes, some part of the army was concentrated on the border, but another no less part was on the move, and the third was only preparing for advancement.
    1. Roll
      Roll 24 June 2013 21: 25 New
      -3
      angry 20 thousand tanks that we had on June 22, I am silent about aviation and artillery, armored cars, sufficient strength to reach Berlin at the first strike in a month.
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 24 June 2013 21: 31 New
        -2
        The quality of the Soviet army was significantly lower than that of the German one, especially by the type of service, at least you read, not just one author, but many. According to Mellentin, for example, the quality of the tank forces of the USSR only by 1944 became high.
        1. stoqn477
          stoqn477 24 June 2013 22: 23 New
          -1
          Sorry, but you say that your tanks have lower German quality for the initial period of the war, this is a little strange. Perhaps the new T-34 and KV suffered from childhood illnesses, but they were better armored and better armed than any Wehrmacht tank. In addition to them, you have thousands of T-26s, BT-5s and BT-7s. The amount is also quality.
        2. Setrac
          Setrac 24 June 2013 23: 27 New
          0
          The T-34 and Kv were a little over a thousand, the rest were light tanks with bulletproof armor.
          Quote: stoqn477
          new T-34 and KV suffered from childhood diseases

          And this, I’ll tell you quite a few! Try to ride without a transmission, you will understand how wrong you are (and a reason with you).
          Quote: stoqn477
          The amount is also quality.

          What does it mean? If you add 10 Lada one Mercedes does not work. Class difference.
        3. sevtrash
          sevtrash 25 June 2013 00: 15 New
          0
          When I talked about quality, I had in mind a collective concept, which included training, the experience of ordinary soldiers and officers, the skills of commanders at various levels in command and control of troops, auxiliary equipment, the interaction of the combat arms, the quality of communication, etc. As you know, the German army was the best military machine at that time, with experience in military operations.
          Of course, the presence of T34 and KV played a role, but very small in the initial stages of the war - read the memoirs of the German military commanders, the Soviet troops still could not fight. Read Rokosovsky’s memoirs, for example, about the state of his mechanized corps and the condition of those tanks that he had.
          Therefore, talking about 20 thousand tanks, not taking into account the state of these tanks, material and technical equipment, the level of mastery of the equipment, the quality of training of troops at different levels is simply stupid.
        4. Roll
          Roll 25 June 2013 08: 41 New
          0
          angry And who prevented us from upgrading the training of officers and soldiers? Less need to sweep the parade ground, and more engage in combat training.
        5. sevtrash
          sevtrash 25 June 2013 09: 11 New
          -1
          Well, read something yourself. The answer is on the surface. You can start with the standard of living, education. This is the base with which the recruits went into the army, can you imagine the difference between Germany and the USSR? Actually, all this is in a variety of publications, you only need to read.
        6. uwzek
          uwzek 26 June 2013 00: 45 New
          0
          Have you ever made up your mind ... Were you planning to attack Germany or the ground parade? In the personnel army of peacetime there are generally few fully functional units. For example, the same army of General Lebed, with the loud name of the personnel, had a regiment, and this composition mainly swept the parade ground and guarded the warehouses. The swan opened them in time and stopped the massacre in Transnistria. But this army was stationed at the border ... But with this army he would not have conquered Moldova.
          The deployment of the army is not the deployment of units in certain areas, but the mobilization of reserve troops. But Stalin practically didn’t have them - very few people managed to visit the army before the war ...
          But plans certainly existed. In a collective farm - to increase the sow milk yield, in the General Staff - to repel all kinds of aggression. Toilet paper marked "Secret" is kept in secret (pun intended!), But this does not stop being a toilet. Perhaps we currently have an approved plan of war with aliens, clearly top secret. If any Barclaydetolev writes nonsense about Putin’s desire to conquer Saturn, will you also demand documentary evidence?
  • Day 11
    Day 11 25 June 2013 00: 21 New
    0
    Bullshit, complete! First of all, we lost tactically
  • Rider
    Rider 24 June 2013 22: 00 New
    0
    Roll
    sufficient strength to reach Berlin at the first hit in a month.


    Yes, you are a strategist cleaner banaparta.

    for the rest -
    at 22 06 41 in the western districts there were just over 11 tanks
    http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks-1941/stranitsa-2.html
    (according to other sources from 13-15)
    Well, their condition can be found in this article.
    http://www.battlefield.ru/soviet-tank-quality-1941.html

    Well, if you are interested in how much armor was in the Wehrmacht
    then here you are:http://topwar.ru/25238-skolko-tankov-bylo-u-gitlera-otkroveniya-viktora-suvorova

    .html

    or http://www.plam.ru/hist/velikii_tankovyi_grabezh_trofeinaja_bronja_gitlera/p1.ph

    p # metkadoc7


    enlighten.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 24 June 2013 22: 00 New
    0
    and the Hans-3256!
  • Normal
    Normal 24 June 2013 22: 29 New
    0
    Quote: Rolm
    20 thousand tanks that we had on June 22,

    Michael, cool down. The army is not strong in the number of tanks and aircraft. In addition to Suvorov, there is also a writer M. Solonin, even more hated by dogmatists. Like Suvorov, not everything in his books can be taken for granted. But "At peacefully sleeping airfields" from the Suvorov statement that if we started first, we would have reached Berlin in a month, does not leave a stone unturned.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 24 June 2013 22: 48 New
      0
      Don’t tell me, Solonin, who is Mark who can be trusted! Yes Rezun compared to him is the standard of truth!
    2. Normal
      Normal 24 June 2013 23: 34 New
      0
      Quote: Den 11
      Do not make me laugh

      Where did I write something funny?

      Quote: Den 11
      Corned beef who is Mark now who can be trusted

      Where did I write that Solonin can be trusted?

      Quote: Den 11
      Yes Rezun compared with him, the standard of truth!


      Rezun ... - the standard of truth ... Yeah ...
      We will consider it said in a state of ... some of the fervor left after talking with Riderom.

      Specifically, what will we compare? Solonin's knowledge of aviation technology and Rezun’s comments on this subject? Or a description of the reasons for the failure in the early days of the war between Solonin and Suvorov's Fantasy about the deep offensive of the Red Army in the event of its first strike?
  • Roll
    Roll 25 June 2013 08: 43 New
    0
    wassat Just the amount that the armada of mechanized units write about the Germans broke through our defenses. it is precisely the quantity and emphasis and sensible leadership.
  • Taoist
    Taoist 24 June 2013 22: 35 New
    +1
    Bullshit ... how can you not understand one not tricky truth ... Neither tanks, nor guns or planes are at war, even individual people are not at war ... Systems are at war. And the systematic relationship for June 41 was such that even if we had struck a blow, collecting absolutely all the tanks in one place would not have ended with anything else ... Unless the Germans would have then got a real chance to end up in the Kremlin.
  • Snoop
    Snoop 26 June 2013 05: 59 New
    0
    The total number of tanks why bring? Which are scattered throughout the USSR. Take the amount that was in the western military districts.
  • Gari
    Gari 24 June 2013 12: 29 New
    +4
    Quote: Tatar
    Really, Stalin did not know that there would be a war, how stupid it was, could he not be the first to speak out against the Germans, for example, on June 20, attacking the enemy

    Speaking to graduates of military academies on May 5, 1941, Stalin declared:

    “We didn’t have friendly relations with Germany. A war with Germany is inevitable, and (turning to Molotov) if Comrade Molotov and the apparatus of the People’s Commissariat of Foreign Affairs can delay the start of the war, this is our happiness. And you,” said Stalin, addressing the military, “go and take measures on the ground to increase the combat readiness of troops. "

    In addition, Stalin then said: “Germany wants to destroy our great motherland, the homeland of Lenin, the conquest of October, to exterminate millions of Soviet people, and turn the survivors into slaves. Only the war against fascist Germany and victory in this war can save our homeland. I I propose that we drink for the war, for the offensive in the war, for our victory in this war. "
    1. Gari
      Gari 24 June 2013 12: 36 New
      +3
      G. K. Zhukov told military historian Viktor Anfilov in 1965: “The idea to prevent Hitler’s attack came up with Tymoshenko in connection with Stalin’s speech on May 5, 1941, to graduates of military academies, in which he spoke about the possibility of acting in an offensive manner. A specific task was delivered to AM Vasilevsky. On May 15 he reported the draft directive to the drug dealer and me. " However, the plan was not signed either by the Chief of General Staff G.K. Zhukov, nor the People's Commissar of Defense S.K. Tymoshenko, since I.V. Stalin rejected him at the preliminary stage of consideration. According to Zhukov, he said: "Are you crazy, do you want to provoke the Germans?"
      And on the other hand, Stalin knew and was ready:
      Khrushchev, who in 1941 was the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, "remembered how on the eve of the German attack, Stalin called him from Moscow and warned that he had to be on the alert. Stalin received information that the Germans could start the operation the next day - 22nd of June".
      On June 21, Stalin phoned the commander of the Moscow Military District, I.V. Tyulenev. In his memoirs, the army general wrote: “I hear a dull voice in the phone:“ Comrade Tyulenev, what is the situation with the air defense of Moscow? ”According to him, Tyulenev“ briefly reported to the head of government about the air defense measures taken today, June 21. In response, he heard: "Keep in mind, the situation is turbulent, and you should bring the combat readiness of the air defense forces of Moscow to seventy-five percent."
      As a result of this short conversation, I got the impression that Stalin received new information about German military plans.
  • Stamp
    Stamp 24 June 2013 17: 52 New
    +1
    Quote: Tatar
    Really Stalin did not know that there would be a war, how stupid it is

    In any case, he was warned about the attack more than once, but those who spoke about it were considered alarmists, and were punished. The last defector, whose words could not be taken seriously.
    At 21 p.m. Saturday, June 21, 1941, soldiers of the 90th border detachment of the Sokalsky commandant’s office (Ukraine, modern Lviv region) detained a German soldier who swam across the Bug River.

    The head of the 90th border detachment Major M.S. Bychkovsky subsequently showed:

    “On June 21 at 21.00 a soldier who fled from the German army, Liskov Alfred, was detained at the Sokal commandant’s station. Since there was no translator in the commandant’s office, I ordered the commander of the station, Captain Bershadsky, to deliver the soldier to Vladimir in the detachment headquarters by truck.

    At 0.30 on June 22, 1941, the soldier arrived in the city of Vladimir-Volynsk. Through an interpreter at about 1 o’clock in the morning, the Liskov soldier testified that on June 22 at dawn the Germans should cross the border. I immediately reported this to the responsible duty officer of the headquarters of the troops, Brigadier Commissar Maslovsky. At the same time, he informed the commander of the 5th Army, Major General Potapov, personally by telephone, who reacted suspiciously to my message without taking it into account.

    I personally also firmly was not convinced of the veracity of the message of the soldier Liskov, but I nevertheless called the commandants of the precincts and ordered that the state border be strengthened, and that special rumors be sent to the river. Bug and in the event of the Germans crossing the river, destroy them with fire. At the same time he ordered, if something suspicious is noticed (any movement on the adjacent side), immediately report to me personally. I was at headquarters all the time.

    The commanders of the plots at 1.00 on June 22 reported to me that nothing suspicious had been noticed on the adjacent side, everything was calm ... "
    Despite doubts about the reliability of the information transmitted by the German soldier, and the skepticism towards her on the part of the commander of the 5th Army, she was promptly transferred to the “top”.

    From the telephone message of the UNKGB in the Lviv region to the NKGB of the Ukrainian SSR.

    “On June 22, 1941, at 3 hours 10 minutes, the UNKGB in the Lviv Region transmitted the following message by telephone to the NKGB of the Ukrainian SSR:

    “The German corporal who crossed the border in the Sokal region showed the following: his last name was Liskov Alfred Germanovich, 30, a worker, a carpenter in a furniture factory in the city of Kolberg (Bavaria), where he left his wife, child, mother and father.

    The corporal served in the 221st combat engineer regiment of the 15th division. The regiment is located in the village of Zelenzha, which is 5 km north of Sokal. Drafted into the army from the reserve in 1939.

    He considers himself a communist, is a member of the Union of Red Front-line Soldiers, and says that in Germany it is a very difficult life for soldiers and workers.

    Before evening, his company commander, Lieutenant Schulz, gave the order and said that tonight after artillery preparation, some of them would begin the Bug transition on rafts, boats and pontoons.

    As a supporter of the Soviet regime, upon learning of this, he decided to run to us and inform us. ”
  • Stamp
    Stamp 24 June 2013 17: 55 New
    +2
    GK Zhukov recalls: “At about 24 hours on June 21, the commander of the Kiev district, MP P. Kirponos, who was at his command post in Ternopol, reported on the RF [...] another German soldier appeared in our units - the 222nd infantry Regiment of the 74th Infantry Division. He swam across the river, came to the border guards and said that at 4 o’clock the German troops would go on the offensive. M.P. Kirponos was ordered to quickly transfer the directive to the troops on putting them on alert ... "

    However, there was no time left. The head of the 90th border detachment mentioned above, M.S. Bychkovsky, continues his testimony this way:

    “... In view of the fact that the translators in the detachment are weak, I called out a German language teacher who was fluent in German, and Liskov repeated the same thing again, that is, that the Germans were preparing to attack the USSR at dawn on June 22, 1941. I called myself a communist and stated that he had arrived specifically to warn on his own initiative.

    Having not finished interrogating the soldier, I heard strong artillery fire in the direction of Ustilug (the first commandant’s office). I realized that the Germans opened fire on our territory, which was immediately confirmed by the interrogated soldier. Immediately began calling the commandant on the phone, but the connection was broken ... "

    The Great Patriotic War began.
    1. wk
      wk 24 June 2013 18: 53 New
      +1
      [quote = Stamp] In any case, he was warned about the attack more than once, but those who talked about it were considered alarmists, and were punished. The last defector, the words of which could not be taken seriously. [/ Quote]
      information and misinformation was very mixed - some informants called one date, others another .... the NKVD did not have a complete picture ... this is described in the docking film "The Great War" 1st series .... in detail on the basis of the dock. facts ... what you write is an eructation of Khrushchev’s propaganda .... the benefit today is a lot of information and by comparing it you can make sure that everything is wrong

      [quote = Stamp] G.K. Zhukov recalls: “At about 24 hours on June 21, the commander of the Kiev district, M. P. Kirponos,


      these memories should be treated very carefully, not without Zhukov’s participation, a legend was created that Stalin was out in the first week of the war ...
      even on the liberal radio station ECHO M on Venediktov’s blog, this was not confirmed, where he was presented
      Stalin's security magazine with a list of visitors June 22-23
      1. Stamp
        Stamp 24 June 2013 19: 40 New
        +2
        Those. want to say that there were no defectors? Among the Germans were communists, they sympathized. Before these German soldiers there were peasants who warned of the concentration of German troops. The film was watched about the Brest Fortress, where a veteran told that the Germans lifted a balloon into the air for observation on the eve of the attack and it was blown onto Soviet territory by wind, but there was no order to open fire.
        Stalin knew or knew about the impending attack, but wanted to push it as far as possible in order to rearm the army apparently.
        Quote: wk
        what do you write-burping Khrushchev propaganda

        Well, if Zhukov — the Marshal of Victory — is an “eructation” of Khrushchev’s propaganda, excuse me, then think about the complete surprise of the attack.
        1. wk
          wk 24 June 2013 22: 09 New
          +2
          there is no talk of any complete suddenness .... Zhukov is certainly an outstanding commander, but Stalin blinded the “marshal of victory” out of him ... although he did not indulge the “stocks” in the war and after it .. and in the early 80s Zhukov’s image began to be untwisted (the country needs heroes) and it reached its peak at the beginning of Yeltsin’s reign ... I recall an interesting incident ... near Zhukov’s sculpture near Red Square of course Tsereteli’s horse turned out to be without the march "Victory Mare on a mare!" there was a scandal, a bronze mare did a transplant.
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 24 June 2013 22: 15 New
            +1
            And why not Rokossovsky? Here is the real marshal of victory! And there were others, the same Vasilevsky
            1. wk
              wk 24 June 2013 22: 38 New
              0
              Quote: Den 11
              And why not Rokossovsky? Here is the real marshal of victory! And there were others, the same Vasilevsky



              Yes, Rokossovsky is a worthy candidate ... I didn’t express a single nasty thing to Stalin for which he was in disgrace under Khrushchev ... he did not become a “marshal of victory” of Polish origin .... but Chuikov kept Stalingrad? ... a lot candidatures ... Stalin's decision on Zhukov was political and probably right at that time .... I am not at all opposed to Zhukov, just according to the information available and according to the memory of my grandfather, a front-line soldier, he was not the best.
              1. Day 11
                Day 11 24 June 2013 22: 52 New
                +1
                HERE, I don’t care that I’m being neglected here, the most important thing is that people start to THINK! Otherwise, the site becomes completely “sour”.
          2. Stamp
            Stamp 24 June 2013 22: 31 New
            +2
            Quote: wk
            no complete suddenness of speech

            Yes, I’m talking about this, it’s impossible to secretly concentrate such a number of troops, armored vehicles and artillery so that the neighboring side does not suspect anything, they report, but “alarmists” were punished.
            Quote: wk
            but the "marshal of victory" Stalin blinded him

            Stalin entrusted him with the most difficult areas of work, and where decisive offensives or counter-attacks were prepared, and often different fronts.
            But in 1946, Stalin removed him from the post of Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces and Deputy Minister of Defense, of course, Zhukov could have an “insult” to Stalin.
            Quote: wk
            the sculpture of Zhukov near Red Square made of course Tsereteli horse was without pendants

            I don’t like Tsereteli’s sculptures either
  • uwzek
    uwzek 25 June 2013 22: 20 New
    +1
    The war does not start in a week, without deploying an army, general mobilization ... Hitler had already accomplished this in the 39th, Germany had already fought for two years ... A number of our units successfully entered German territory on June 22, and cartridges with shells ended ... The peacetime army is only the basis of the army of war (even obviously they did not prepare for a war with Georgia for a week). Whether or not Stalin wanted to attack Germany is not a topic for discussion at all. In June of the 41st he complied with the terms of the contract and was not able to attack the Germans. Even with current weapons, it’s fast enough to launch a ballistic missile (and not in an hour). And what's next? Howl at the moon?
    "Icebreaking" ravings do not have any common sense. Stalin was already arranging an unprepared war with Finland under the guise of. This blitzkrieg taught him a lot. By 1941, the USSR had a lot of weapons, military equipment, but the army, in the sense of mobile reserves, was not. A call for military service was introduced somewhere around the turn of the forties. Prior to that, the bulk of the population was preparing at training camps at the place of residence and in OSAVIAHIM circles. Waste-approach to the three-line, putting on a gas mask. Moreover, millions of class aliens who were not admitted to this science. Stalin did not have a trained reserve; there really was nobody to mobilize and deploy against Germany. If not Hitler, then his General Staff knew this and really took into account, and you were not afraid of the imminent attack of the USSR.
  • My address
    My address 24 June 2013 08: 28 New
    +7
    Yes, elementary logic speaks of the unwillingness of war by Stalin. Even the logic is forward on the 10-20let. What for Stalin and, in his face the USSR, to climb on the then Germany? Well, what for in all respects?
    1. wlad59
      wlad59 24 June 2013 11: 30 New
      -6
      But what for Stalin climbed to the then Finland and then Romania ??? ((probably I didn’t want a war ...
      1. Containers
        Containers 24 June 2013 22: 00 New
        +1
        Well, read something more or less serious about the causes of the Soviet-Finnish war ...
  • Apologet insane
    Apologet insane 24 June 2013 08: 35 New
    -35
    In my opinion, many speculators from history simply mix everything in one pile. It is one thing that Stalin and the Bolshevik gang were analogous to Hitler and the NSDAP. Another thing is that the Soviet people, despite all the red chaos, nevertheless stood up for the defense of the Motherland, and this is its double heroism. The people are a hero. And Stalin is a typical dictator. It’s just that he didn’t have a country in Africa.
    1. ziqzaq
      ziqzaq 24 June 2013 08: 57 New
      19
      Quote: Apologet Insane
      It is one thing that Stalin and the Bolshevik gang were an analogue of Hitler and the NSDAP

      Stalin received a country with a plow, and left with an atomic bomb ......
      Current politicians are not even worth the tip of his nail ...
      And the "Red Terror" was organized by the comprador revolutionaries who came from behind the "hillock", Trotsky and Co.
      And only when Stalin finally brought order to the country, having cleaned up all this evil, only then the country became sovereign .....
      After the death of GREAT STALIN, only a pair of boots and a tunic remained ...
      Comparing Stalin with Hitler is at least stupid ...
      1. Apologet insane
        Apologet insane 24 June 2013 09: 02 New
        -29
        Roosevelt left the country with much, but without the Gulag and mass repressions.
        1. tanker75
          tanker75 24 June 2013 10: 20 New
          +2
          By the way, the Roosevelt British curse just the same for accepting the Empire, and when he left, Great Britain was essentially another US state. The losses of England were huge (I'm not talking about casualties).
          1. Apologet insane
            Apologet insane 24 June 2013 11: 09 New
            0
            Confusing Roosevelt with Churchill, sir.
            1. tanker75
              tanker75 24 June 2013 11: 31 New
              0
              I agree, I mixed up in a hurry. From the text it’s clear anyway, who is it about)
          2. FRIGATE2
            FRIGATE2 24 June 2013 20: 14 New
            -1
            Quote: tanker75
            Great Britain was essentially another US state

            Here you breed demagoguery. Where was the US state of WB?
        2. avt
          avt 24 June 2013 10: 41 New
          11
          Quote: Apologet Insane
          Roosevelt left the country with much, but without the Gulag and mass repressions.

          laughing Yeah, especially his labor camps with community service on self-sufficiency, charged $ 25 and deducted $ 20 for "maintenance." Well, and even the removal of gold from the population under pain of criminal punishment, they left only jewelry, so here, Torgsin is resting.
          1. Apologet insane
            Apologet insane 24 June 2013 11: 12 New
            -6
            Labor camps for the unemployed, for those who lost everything during the crisis. Note that due to the fact that he correctly set the vector of activity of these labor camps and people got the opportunity to return to normal life, and the economy began to flourish. I think you know about American roads and factories that our advanced production facilities were very far from them in terms of efficiency.
            1. Roll
              Roll 24 June 2013 11: 57 New
              -2
              love And why did the Amer crisis happen, before the crisis everything was fine, and then suddenly the huge economy went downhill. What is the reason? Why the financial system collapsed and the real economy turned out to be helpless
              1. Apologet insane
                Apologet insane 24 June 2013 14: 16 New
                -2
                Our crisis is not so felt, because initially the level of economic development is lower. Not worse, but simply lower, has not grown to the pernicious mega-bubbles of credit and exchange. And nothing of them collapsed - every five years something collapses, and the country remains the strongest in the world.
            2. avt
              avt 24 June 2013 12: 19 New
              +4
              Quote: Apologet Insane
              . Notice, due to the fact that he correctly set the vector of activity of these labor camps and people got the opportunity to return to normal life, and the economy began to flourish. I think you know about American roads and factories that our advanced production facilities were very far from them in terms of efficiency.

              Well, and the purchase of factories, and not football teams, on a turn-key basis, is this not a vector and economic recovery? But what is the fact that in tsarist Russia, in general, for all the pace of development, workers were 2%? And the fact that as a result of collectivization, yes, with all the costs and crimes, the peasants became both factory workers and engineers, or did the indicated categories of citizens collapse from the oak? If you carefully analyze the actions of Stalin and Roosevelt, then make sure that they had the same methods, BUT, the American civil war had long died out and there were no conflicts on the territory, plus such an IDEOLOGICAL confrontation as we have with a corresponding breakdown of ideology comparable only with the French there was no revolution in the states. Of course there were fewer victims
              Quote: Apologet Insane
              I think you know about American roads and factories that our advanced production facilities were very far from them in terms of efficiency.
              Well, both Potatin and Prokhorov did not build a single new plant, everyone milked and wring out to dryness that was built under the USSR under the leadership of Minister Lomako. request And by the way, equipment for factories, and Mikoyan’s whole factories, was bought for gold, and the most advanced in those days in America, the entire automotive industry was practically bought in the states, as well as canneries, and even he tried to introduce the Mac Donalds system in public catering, but it didn’t go then, so Roosevelt also went up to our gold.
            3. Misantrop
              Misantrop 24 June 2013 12: 21 New
              +8
              Quote: Apologet Insane
              Labor camps for the unemployed, for those who lost everything during the crisis. Notice, due to the fact that he correctly set the vector of activity of these labor camps and people got the opportunity to return to normal life, and the economy began to flourish.

              The good thing is "democratic principles," elastic. Wanted - stretched, let go - shrank. wassat From Stalin for everyone who fell into the camps, almost the decision of an international court is required. But the Americans threw a third of a million Japanese into the camps (generally without any courts or justifications of guilt, just because the Japanese). And they held until they themselves were tired. And this is quite normal and democratic. The same thing about the northern peoples, about it - generally silence, extremely rarely information leaks out (especially by the percentage of those killed there). And if the USA even fought with Japan (i.e., at least some logic can be seen, even by the edge), then this is not close. But, nevertheless, the Americans are in their own right, and Stalin is a tyrant and a murderer ... request
              1. Apologet insane
                Apologet insane 24 June 2013 14: 21 New
                -8
                I compare the picture as a whole, rather than individual episodes. And there, and here someone was planted, repressed. But the same Japanese in the camps in America did not die of hunger, they didn’t drive them down in the cold in the cold, and then they went out and continued to live like US citizens. If we start to analyze the episodes, then in Russia and Uzbekistan, it happens that the salary is low and life is bad. But in general, they are coming from Uzbekistan to us, and not vice versa.
        3. Roll
          Roll 24 June 2013 11: 53 New
          +3
          wassat Roosevelt left the strange without mass repression. Oh well, and who put 100 Japanese in concentration camps, and who, during a temporary depression during mass work for a dollar a day, forced the Americans to work hard, in a condition reminiscent of the gulag, and where there was a famine among the ruined farmers. It was just that America was in a much better position than the USSR, so our gulag was worse, and if the Japanese landed in the states, there would also be penal battalions and the order would not be a step back. Then there was time and the methods of dictators are similar. For what the British democrats wiped out Dresden? If not for Truman, then Roosevelt would have also ordered the vigorous bombing of Hiroshima and Nagosaki. Then there was such a thing, and the customs of all were bestial.
          1. Apologet insane
            Apologet insane 24 June 2013 14: 34 New
            -8
            Only with us they were more animal. As the revolution began in the bestial way, they lived in the bestial way until the “thaw”, when they suddenly remembered that the people, in addition to cast iron, also needed soap.
            1. Roll
              Roll 24 June 2013 15: 07 New
              -3
              drinks In our country they are more animalistic, in which I agree, of course dispossession in this form of tragedy. But the problem is fists and collective farms things are not compatible, unfortunately collective farms defeated before, now farmers have fists in a new way. And why the collective farms collapsed, well, 2/3 were unprofitable and stupid, but one third of the former collective farms were millionaires, and quite competitive producers. And where the former collective farmers, youth flees to cities in prostitutes and gastrobaytera, the rest drank, chopped up. There is no choice either the collective farm or the fist, but what animals, and when the amers dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, it’s okay to intimidate Stalin, and the second, what would plutonium experience, it’s not for the bestial, but Vietnam’s orange watering is not for the bestial. But Hitler simply declared the Jews and Gypsies redundant and destroyed, it wasn’t for animals, I silently destroyed every 4 Belarusians, but the French, which they did in Algeria, and this after occupation.
              1. Apologet insane
                Apologet insane 24 June 2013 15: 30 New
                -4
                I compare the USA and Russia. By the way, Americans always reacted negatively to Europe and respected Russia. Read at least Mark Twain's “Simpletons Abroad,” an ordinary American look. He’s just trolling everyone there, and talking about Russia with genuine respect and admiration, not a single bad word. Political systems are at enmity, but peoples are sympathetic to each other.

                And bombs - at that time ordinary weapons, ordinary bombs, albeit freshly invented. As if Stalin wouldn’t drop a bomb on anyone, if he had it.
                1. Containers
                  Containers 24 June 2013 22: 12 New
                  0
                  Mark Twain - He's a little offbeat American. If you look.
                  And about whether Stalin would have dropped the bomb or not ... Well, the Americans dropped it, not Stalin. Count it up.
                  1. Apologet insane
                    Apologet insane 25 June 2013 16: 44 New
                    -2
                    Yes, ours are more Germans and Japanese, as well as Poles and our own population, in the camps were rotted than Americans with nuclear bombs. Count it up.
            2. Setrac
              Setrac 24 June 2013 17: 15 New
              +4
              Quote: Apologet Insane
              Only with us they were more animal. As the revolution began in the bestial way, they lived in the bestial way until the “thaw”, when they suddenly remembered that the people, in addition to cast iron, also needed soap.

              You just lie to Stalin and the USSR, in the "bestial" USSR 30% of prisoners of war died in captivity, 70% of Red Army prisoners of war died in captivity, and your beloved America starved 1 million German soldiers, only because they sympathized with the USSR, I’ll pay attention that the war has already ended and there was enough food.
              1. FRIGATE2
                FRIGATE2 24 June 2013 20: 19 New
                -2
                Quote: Setrac
                You just lie to Stalin and the USSR, in the "bestial" USSR 30% of prisoners of war died in captivity, 70% of Red Army prisoners of war died in captivity, and your beloved America starved 1 million German soldiers, only because they sympathized with the USSR, I’ll pay attention that the war has already ended and there was enough food.

                And you said that the Golden Horde did not exist
                1. Setrac
                  Setrac 24 June 2013 20: 30 New
                  0
                  Quote: FRIGATE2
                  And you said that the Golden Horde did not exist

                  I said that the Mongol shepherds had nothing to do with it, if there was an invasion, then the nomadic shepherds had nothing to do with it.
                  1. Setrac
                    Setrac 24 June 2013 20: 34 New
                    0
                    and by the way, I didn’t put you a minus
                  2. FRIGATE2
                    FRIGATE2 24 June 2013 20: 43 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Setrac
                    I said that the Mongol shepherds had nothing to do with it, if there was an invasion, then the nomadic shepherds had nothing to do with it.

                    So the fact of the matter is that these were the Turks
    2. ia-ai00
      ia-ai00 24 June 2013 09: 22 New
      10
      This "dictator" put the country from the ruins of the post-Revolutionary on its feet as soon as possible, dressed, shod, fed, built factories, launched satellites into space, learned for free you and your parents, and what you planted ... yes, someone must I’ve suffered for nothing, for nothing, let them thank the careerists, neighbors and relatives to whom they interfered. But basically, those who spent time in the GULAGs must have carried out subversive activities in the country, just as the Liberians and “public organizations”, funded from the USA, who set themselves the goal of destroying Russia from the inside! And at that time it was even more difficult to keep the country. And among the communists there were also "clinging" to them, essentially their own ... and not communists. Watch the movie “Communist”, maybe you’ll understand ... although it can be seen on the FEIS - you will never understand!
      1. Apologet insane
        Apologet insane 24 June 2013 09: 30 New
        -12
        But what kind of post-revolutionary ruins are there? NEP was stumbling, the economy is in order. But communism cannot be built without collectivization. And if someone lives well, what kind of communism is this? And in order to learn my parents, my great-grandfathers paid with freedom and blood, being dispossessed and exiled to the darkness.
        1. ia-ai00
          ia-ai00 24 June 2013 10: 01 New
          12
          My grandfather on the Father's side was also "dispossessed" - they took one only horse, but I never heard that my grandfather or father would hail Soviet power or Stalin. And the Father - a participant in the defense of Moscow, said that they went on the attack with an appeal: - "For the Motherland, for Stalin! ..." During the war, the father joined the party and lived honestly all his life! But such as Yeltsin - is it really a COMMUNIST? Or Gobchaty - what kind of communist is he? A communist is a person who, in thinking of his SKIN for his Motherland, will give his life and will do everything for the good of the Motherland, and not to the detriment! Today's Communist Party can hardly be identified with the TRUE Communists of the USSR, but this is my personal opinion, and I do not see a leader in Zyuganov’s face.
          1. sevtrash
            sevtrash 24 June 2013 10: 35 New
            -12
            As far as I read recalling the front-line soldiers - “For the Motherland, for Stalin” they shouted a little, mainly “Hurray” and obscenities.
            Communism is a flawed ideology based on the assumption that someone else's shirt will be closer to the body. But this will not happen as long as a person remains a person.
            One of the most significant evidence of the inferiority of communism - who came to power after Stalin, the crown of development - Gorbachev, the history of civilization hardly knew the worst statesman.
            1. ia-ai00
              ia-ai00 24 June 2013 11: 52 New
              +1
              Do you want to say that I’m lying? Do you think that ALL people are able to speculate with the memory of relatives, dear and close people? I respected and loved my father very much and did not think up anything, but he was an honest man and I believed and believe him! You read, and the FATHER, a veteran of the Great Patriotic War, told me!
              1. sevtrash
                sevtrash 24 June 2013 12: 41 New
                -3
                You at least carefully read that in the comments. With all due respect to your grandfather, I do not think that he alone went on the attack. Or are the opinions of others not perceived?
                1. ia-ai00
                  ia-ai00 24 June 2013 13: 29 New
                  -2
                  Well, you exclude what I know, but I’m just saying that I know, and I know that the facts you cited took place, you’re categorical!
                  1. sevtrash
                    sevtrash 24 June 2013 16: 49 New
                    -1
                    And again - read carefully! Where do you see categoricity with me, my phrases are far from categorical "As far as I read ...", ".. shouted a little ..."
                    And compare with your statements
                    Quote: ia-ai00
                    Do you want to say that I’m lying?

                    Quote: ia-ai00
                    Well, you exclude what I know

                    Quote: ia-ai00
                    you are categorical
                  2. FRIGATE2
                    FRIGATE2 24 June 2013 20: 23 New
                    -1
                    Quote: ia-ai00
                    Well, you exclude what I know, but I’m just saying that I know, and I know that the facts you cited took place, you’re categorical!

                    Dear how to believe you? when you are on the other branch of all Kazakhs as savages.
                    Who after such a judgment takes history more adequately
                    1. ia-ai00
                      ia-ai00 24 June 2013 21: 14 New
                      0
                      Do not attribute to me your fantasies! In every nation there are people worthy and vice versa! Where did you see that I consider Kazakhs ... my tongue does not turn! For many years I have been working in a team with the Kazakhs, I live side by side with them, and never any hostile relations, the glory of GOD was not observed either from me or from me. And if you carefully read my comments “on another branch”, you should have noticed that I had hostile relations with only one respondent who slandered the Russian people and CORRUPT historical facts!
                      1. sevtrash
                        sevtrash 24 June 2013 21: 26 New
                        0
                        You are somehow sharply negative and intolerant of a different opinion. It’s strange that with only one ... By the way, why the respondent?
                      2. ia-ai00
                        ia-ai00 24 June 2013 21: 40 New
                        +1
                        Respondent - a person answering the questionnaire or interviewer. Dictionary of business terms. Akademik.ru. 2001 ... Glossary of Business Terms

                        And here, exchanging opinions, we practically answer each other's questions, and now you practically take from me interview.
                      3. sevtrash
                        sevtrash 25 June 2013 00: 23 New
                        +1
                        Well, actually, I myself know who the respondent is, and why I asked the question - a rhetorical one. Because we precisely exchange opinions, but do not answer questionnaires.

                        By the way, I agree with you about the "smiles of the eastern man," the outcome of the Russians and the Slavs in general from the "fraternal republics" says something.
                  3. FRIGATE2
                    FRIGATE2 24 June 2013 22: 19 New
                    0
                    Quote: ia-ai00
                    Do not attribute to me your fantasies! In every nation there are people worthy and vice versa! Where did you see that I consider Kazakhs ... my tongue does not turn! For many years I have been working in a team with the Kazakhs, I live side by side with them, and never any hostile relations, the glory of GOD was not observed either from me or from me. And if you carefully read my comments “on another branch”, you should have noticed that I had hostile relations with only one respondent who slandered the Russian people and CORRUPT historical facts!

                    Now you don’t need Baba Klava, but I didn’t know anything, what are you talking about? turn on
                    Are you about asians
                    Quote: ia-ai00
                    As the saying goes: "Do not believe the smile of an Eastern man!". All of them are "friends" with a stone in the bosom! They live at the expense of Russia and spit on it ...

                    And this is a catchphrase
                    Gaddafi and Nazarbayev have the same adviser - THEY BLAIR - BRITAN ..., he "helped" Libya, will help Kazakhstan ...
                    and here you can see that you are inadequate Madame
                    Well, build your plants, or continue to increase the economy of the United States, and they, at the right time, will "send" a signal to their "programmed microcircuits" and your planes will begin to bomb and self-destruct you ...
                    Quote: ia-ai00
                    A partner is a partner, and Tony Blair is an adviser .... I have no doubt that such "assistants" are doing everything to ensure that there is "tension" in relations with Russia.
                    So how many times can you change the lease terms? One way or another, Kazakhstani officials connected with and near Baikonur imagined themselves to be mighty, some who flew into space thanks to Russia “felt” themselves great and are not shy about putting new conditions and almost ultimatums to Russia, and that’s already. sorry not for partnerships, but for twisting hands. So it's your own fault!
                    And without the Russian language, they generally HANA!

                    ... go nuts !!! Occupants built cities, power plants, industrial enterprises, hospitals, schools, taught, treated, etc.! After the collapse of the USSR, all this remained in the possession of the country.
                    I wish EVERYTHING! RUSSIANS left your country and that you personally forgot the Russian language!


                    In Kazakhs, I never encountered hatred of the Russians as a whole, and personally, just like I do not feel hatred and hostility towards them.
                    It turns out you yourself do not know what you want and your statements look simply shameful for Madame.
                  4. ia-ai00
                    ia-ai00 25 June 2013 07: 36 New
                    +1
                    Yes, my friend, you just went under a new "nickname", you probably have already been banned, and you really want to "say everything, pour more!" ... So you already said, I don’t want to explain something to you, communicate, as you say " quietly with himself, quietly with himself "... Perhaps you are a" henchman "to incite ethnic hatred ???? It’s not worth answering, you are no more!
    3. Apologet insane
      Apologet insane 24 June 2013 11: 16 New
      -7
      My paternal grandmother, several brothers and sisters, as well as their mother, died when they were brought to the Kazakh steppe in the middle of winter, just with shovels for digging dugouts instead of building materials. My maternal grandmother died of hunger 6 or something of her brothers and sisters. A lot, in general. And it wasn’t that the horse was taken away, a lot of things were taken away. They didn’t even have the Roosevelt labor of $ 5 - just hard labor for a handful of flour. And also communism did not fail. Propaganda is such a thing that even North Korean migrant workers with brainwashed and thin faces are convinced that there is nothing better than the DPRK.
      1. Roll
        Roll 24 June 2013 15: 15 New
        +2
        wassat And here the propaganda is here, socialism in 60-70 was not a bad order, they paid normally, they gave apartments for free or bought a cooperative, they were no match for the current mortgages, people didn’t bother at work, there were a lot in the shops, and it’s silly to compare the quality of the products. And cool films did and much more. Just then they put the system under the knife of capitalism.
      2. Setrac
        Setrac 25 June 2013 19: 51 New
        0
        Quote: Apologet Insane
        My grandmother

        After all that you said above, they simply don’t believe you.
    4. FRIGATE2
      FRIGATE2 24 June 2013 20: 21 New
      -1
      Quote: ia-ai00
      My grandfather on the Father's side was also "dispossessed" - they took one only horse, but I never heard my grandfather or father hail the Soviet government or Stalin

      Your ancestors seemed to be poor
      1. ia-ai00
        ia-ai00 24 June 2013 21: 42 New
        0
        You know, neither the ancestors nor their descendants stole!
  • Vinnipukh
    Vinnipukh 24 June 2013 10: 21 New
    +5
    What can I say - learn history. The Russian empire was an agrarian power with underdeveloped industry, which had just begun the industrial rise to the 1st World War. War and revolution not only interrupted this development, but also practically destroyed that little that existed in Russia. The country lay in ruins. The level of production, including agricultural products, fell sharply. The reasons for the transition to a new economic policy (NEP) from the policy of war communism were:

    the urgent need to normalize relations between the city and the village;
    the need for economic recovery;
    the problem of stabilizing money;
    discontent of the peasantry with the surplus appropriation service, which led to the intensification of the rebel movement (kulak rebellion);
    desire to restore foreign relations. The NEP was mainly aimed at the development of small and medium-sized entrepreneurs, but almost all large industrial projects in the framework of industrialization were carried out after the collapse of the NEP.
    As for Roosevelt, it is simply ridiculous to compare the USA and the USSR. In the United States there were: military operations in the country in the 1st and 2nd world wars, civil war. There was no need to practically restore the industry from scratch.
  • OTTO
    OTTO 24 June 2013 11: 15 New
    0
    Quote: Apologet Insane
    NEP was stumbling, the economy is in order.

    NEP could raise light industry, services, petty trade. It is a well-known path of European industrial development that heavy industry arises after the development of light industry, perhaps the NEP would have mastered it, over time, only now there was no trouble.
  • Roll
    Roll 24 June 2013 12: 44 New
    +1
    angry And what did NEP do with this, did he build hydroelectric power stations? Factories, factories? And, as far as dispossession is concerned, this is of course an excess, you can’t say anything, and the theory of class struggle has ruined it. But the time was like that. Amers have a Small farmer, the analogy of our fist could also ask a question, why did the Amerov financial system ruin it, and during the time of the depression hundreds of thousands of small farms went bankrupt, and in a country that didn’t fight anyone, but instead robbed everyone, sent them to arbitrariness of fate, for community service.
  • avt
    avt 24 June 2013 13: 33 New
    +2
    Quote: Apologet Insane
    NEP was stumbling, the economy is in order.

    The surname of at least one Nepman who built some kind of engineering plant and not an artel and a tavern, in the studio. This is exactly the kind of hostesses like Prokhorov who are the Nepmans who suck the Stalinist and post-Stalinist backlog.
    1. Apologet insane
      Apologet insane 24 June 2013 14: 37 New
      -6
      If it weren’t for Prokhorov, bears would have lived in Norilsk long ago, but Philippine watchmen from American factories.
      1. Roll
        Roll 24 June 2013 15: 24 New
        +1
        laughing As for Prokhorov, the bears did not live there, and the plant worked unlike the current one, and for how much Prokhorov bought it, took money from the state and bought it. Yes, it would be better if they sold it to the Germans than Potanin and Prokhorov. Here, Chubais sold RG Eem to the Germans and TGKashki finals when cutting. Now aeon and fortum are the best, but those bought by Gasprom in the ass are. So it does not pull Prokhorov to the savior of the fatherland.
        1. Apologet insane
          Apologet insane 24 June 2013 16: 19 New
          -4
          And why did all this happen, remind? Who's guilty?
      2. avt
        avt 24 June 2013 17: 52 New
        +4
        Quote: Apologet Insane
        If it weren’t for Prokhorov, bears would have lived in Norilsk long ago, but Philippine watchmen from American factories.

        Just do not fool around about “smart” businessmen, leave it for suckers trained in Soros textbooks, you tell them about unprofitable Soviet production, mining for example platinum, which suddenly appeared before a mortgage auction of Chubais, bought for a penny, and even those borrowed from of the state. You can still catch the blizzards about the fall in prices for rare-earth metals in the world market, maybe someone will take the lead, but what’s interesting is that when these businessmen take something to do really, it turns out the E-car in one instance, the E-party with the E-leader , E-biathlon with a basketball stadium for a billion in Boston, by the way, do not be lazy and think about why in Boston, and not in Krasnoyarsk.
      3. ia-ai00
        ia-ai00 25 June 2013 18: 24 New
        0
        Your Prokhorov showed all of Russia where his homeland is, so don’t! And to work on him for 14 hours a day, as he suggested, dismiss ...
  • stoqn477
    stoqn477 24 June 2013 14: 44 New
    0
    I may be wrong, in your opinion, but for me, Stalin was later Peter the Great. Both bring your country to a new technological level. And in both of your people pay the corresponding bloody price for it.
    1. FRIGATE2
      FRIGATE2 24 June 2013 20: 28 New
      -7
      Quote: stoqn477
      I may be wrong, in your opinion, but for me, Stalin was later Peter the Great. Both bring your country to a new technological level. And in both of your people pay the corresponding bloody price for it.

      And both poorly educated individuals
  • avt
    avt 24 June 2013 10: 37 New
    +6
    Quote: Apologet Insane
    Another thing is that the Soviet people, despite all the red chaos, nevertheless stood up for the defense of the Motherland, and this is its double heroism. The people are a hero. And Stalin is a typical dictator. It’s just that he didn’t have a country in Africa.

    This is how Svanidze’s pastoral seems to be right — the men gathered, who are in the village, who are in the city and decided. You’ll go to the tank factory as a director, you are Filimon to the front and your brother-in-law your marshal, well, etc. And the evil Stalin and the Communists are running around and they are being prevented by the tribunals and detachments from protecting the Motherland laughing . But Mlechin, he had just agreed a day ago that it was only Stalin who allowed the Germans to Moscow with his tyrannical regime, but the tsar father wouldn’t allow such a life. True, he was bashfully keeping silent that World War I was shamed, and long before the Bolsheviks, the "brilliant" generals of the Commander-in-Chief merged in February 17, proof of this is their own telegrams to Nikolasha No. 2, well, the truth came their turn. So may kind politeness http: // topwar .ru / user / Apologet + Insane / all the same, turn on the brain, and not repeat the alien and rather stupid chatter of Svanidze and Melechen? Or are you afraid that they will write to the Stalinists? Well, this is better than the fools who think in the lower hemispheres and stomach.
  • Rider
    Rider 24 June 2013 11: 58 New
    +1
    Quote: Apologet Insane
    and this is his double heroism. The people are a hero. And Stalin is a typical dictator.


    Well, here is another apologist meme "won against"

    I will ask you a simple question
    (which most of your like-minded people depend on)

    how can a locomotive (paravoz) go contrary to the driver?

    I note, this is still a gentle option, since the same question about a ship or plane makes the answer completely meaningless.
    1. FRIGATE2
      FRIGATE2 24 June 2013 20: 31 New
      -6
      Quote: Rider
      how can a locomotive (paravoz) go contrary to the driver?

      but how will the locomotive go if the stupid driver is on it? The rails are laid, the train is certainly going, but contrary to all, the end is coming. This end is the destruction of the USSR, everything was doomed to death in advance, and the Nazis so generally the machine immediately fell apart
      1. Rider
        Rider 24 June 2013 21: 31 New
        +4
        You will have a template gap now, but ...

        under Stalin, the USSR did not fall apart, but rather overcame the civil ruin, wiped off a considerable industry, and defeated the STRONGEST ARMY IN THE CONTINENT.

        and the crash happened araaaazdo later, and just because the engineer (labeled and clique) moved the arrows, they began to slow down the locomotive and throw substandard coal into the furnace.
        but the discussion topic, this does not apply.
        1. Containers
          Containers 24 June 2013 23: 37 New
          +1
          I’ll say even more - they began to pull coals from the furnace, instead of throwing it there.
  • Komodo
    Komodo 24 June 2013 08: 38 New
    +2
    Any naughty and got on the neck seeks to come up with an excuse.
    This is in human nature. It is unbearably difficult for anyone to live with defeat, and this is the reason that generates options for excuses. But in this case it will be extremely difficult to do.
    Because they lost outright, collapse, fiasco, “to zero”. And the only way out for them is only one: ACHIEVE)).
  • nepopadun
    nepopadun 24 June 2013 09: 02 New
    +1
    It will be necessary to teach America a lesson as well as the Germans.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 24 June 2013 22: 03 New
      0
      And how do we go, “pig” or grab from the flanks?
  • ed65b
    ed65b 24 June 2013 09: 07 New
    +8
    I have been reading this leaf for 20 years and hear it periodically.
    Just recently I watched a program box about the Baltic “friends” and Westerners from Ukraine, looking at how fluffy feathers and sticking out skinny breasts were marching from all sorts of waffen SS, Galitchin, etc. And I thought that despite the contradictory nature of Stalin’s figure, he was a great humanist, namely a humanist. Here, then, he would shoot all these nurseries, if they wouldn’t go now in heroes, would not corrupt the youth with stories about the struggle for freedom by cutting villages, communist families and guarding concentration camps. Yes, and a lot of things done. And he just planted them.
    1. Snoop
      Snoop 26 June 2013 06: 05 New
      0
      Not just planted ... after the war, the Balts who fought in the SS divisions were subject to amnesty)))
      Criminal cases were terminated, those already in the Gulag were freed, some were replaced with special settlements .... then this was an administrative measure of punishment. The truth is only in relation to the rank and file.
  • Dimkapvo
    Dimkapvo 24 June 2013 09: 07 New
    +5
    22.06.41 ghouls attacked us and our grandfathers tore them in the trash - that's a fact !!! And even Europe and America are justified - it will remain a fact forever !!! Let them pray that we would not have to remind them !!!
    1. tanker75
      tanker75 24 June 2013 11: 41 New
      0
      It will be difficult to repeat, people are not the same. No doubt, there are heroes, but it seems to me there will be more traitors. The situation in the country now resembles France, until 1940, a purely personal opinion.
      1. Containers
        Containers 24 June 2013 23: 44 New
        0
        There is no solid in nature. There is iron in nature. Steel - it is forged from iron in the fire.
  • Dejavu
    Dejavu 24 June 2013 09: 30 New
    +7
    The main thing is to save the story for our children in our territory, in our books and other sources. And most importantly, at the beginning of a history lesson in any school, make a remark: "Children, our gay-European" friends "will lie about your story with you throughout your life and lie very and indefatigably. Therefore, try to learn the story OUR, which I, your teacher, I’ll tell you now. " All that remains is to pray to God to send us someone besides Fursenko, the Livanovs and other unclean people who would understand that now it is more important than ever to defend our history and not mix it with the geyropey shit. But the main thing is to educate teachers who would go to school with a clean, enlightened head.
    1. Apologet insane
      Apologet insane 24 June 2013 09: 34 New
      -12
      The propagandists love to change history. And with us, and with them, and everywhere. And we just taste the product of their propaganda digestion. We have popular historical excrement from Kurginyan and Starikov, if I'm not mistaken.
      1. omsbon
        omsbon 24 June 2013 09: 43 New
        +3
        Quote: Apologet Insane
        . We have popular historical excrement from Kurginyan and Starikov, if I'm not mistaken.

        It’s bad when the excrement mixed in my head!
        1. Apologet insane
          Apologet insane 24 June 2013 09: 46 New
          -2
          I agree. But, alas, this phenomenon is massive now.
          1. omsbon
            omsbon 24 June 2013 12: 21 New
            0
            It’s bad when the excrement mixed in my head!

            Quote: Apologet Insane
            I agree. But, alas, this phenomenon is massive now.


            It is strange that with a massive mess of shit in the heads, only Apologet Insane spread rot. I wonder why?
            1. Apologet insane
              Apologet insane 24 June 2013 16: 22 New
              -2
              Where is it spreading rot? Just on this resource certain moods and ideas prevail. On another resource - other moods and ideas. There is never something neutral. Another thing is that the administration of this site is happy: discussions allow. On many sites with a similar information policy, all those who disagree, including me, have long been banned.
      2. stroporez
        stroporez 24 June 2013 09: 50 New
        +4
        and from Svanidze. It’s a good idea to watch a cada of enemy puppies trying to paint the devils white .......... sorry, they didn’t finish ...........
        1. rodevaan
          rodevaan 24 June 2013 10: 30 New
          +2
          Sorry, sorry. Gozman is still there ...
      3. avt
        avt 24 June 2013 10: 47 New
        +1
        Quote: Apologet Insane
        We have popular historical excrement from Kurginyan and Starikov, if I'm not mistaken.

        You are mistaken for twenty years Svanidze and Mlechensky, you’re accepting his campaign for chocolate, but if something else doesn’t seem to taste like that and you don’t know the name.
        1. Apologet insane
          Apologet insane 24 June 2013 11: 08 New
          -5
          What kind of Svanidze and Molechensky in general? Which person already tells me about this. Did Svanidze and Mlechin write any history books?
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 24 June 2013 11: 11 New
            +1
            Comrade, go to another branch, in this thread you are somehow un-very
            1. Apologet insane
              Apologet insane 24 June 2013 11: 19 New
              -3
              Is it because I don’t know any mythical luminaries of history that everyone here doesn’t like?
          2. avt
            avt 24 June 2013 11: 52 New
            +5
            Quote: Apologet Insane
            Did Svanidze and Mlechin write any history books?

            Well, they began to be the Sorovsk guano consumed.
            Quote: Apologet Insane
            This is because I don’t know any mythical luminaries of history,

            And it is necessary to read different books and less, "luminaries" of the type of brewers, to listen, and indeed to learn everything by comparison, you look and you will not fool to appear and argue arguably, rather than throwing agitation.
            1. Apologet insane
              Apologet insane 24 June 2013 14: 14 New
              -5
              Alas, I don’t know anything about the Soros guano and the brewers. I know about the wretched Rezun, about the dreamers-saliva spray Kurginyan and Starikov, about the miraculous judo Levashov, about the theater-goer Radzinsky, about the fabulous Fomenko. And where am I throwing agitation here? I sincerely asked. I know that Svanidze is a journalist, broadcasting some kind of program, but, unfortunately, I don’t have a TV, so I don’t know which one.
  • Rezun
    Rezun 24 June 2013 10: 10 New
    +2
    "History does not tolerate the subjunctive mood!"

    Translated into Russian - "... if, yes, if only mushrooms were growing in the mouth, and then there would be not a mouth, but a whole garden!" Tired of alternative historians.
  • ed65b
    ed65b 24 June 2013 10: 14 New
    +5
    Svanidze. he does not deserve other epithets. It’s time to kick him out of the country to Georgia, to his historical homeland, let him frolic there. The concrete washer.
    1. rodevaan
      rodevaan 24 June 2013 10: 29 New
      +2
      Duck if so if only! I would drive them all to the west with a filthy broom - I don’t even know when this event will happen ...
    2. Day 11
      Day 11 24 June 2013 10: 34 New
      +1
      And why does a Jew have a historical homeland-Georgia?
      1. rodevaan
        rodevaan 24 June 2013 10: 44 New
        +6
        Yes, it is not a Jew or a Georgian. Are there few Russian bastards? 5 column has no nationality. And to me personally, a Jew is a true patriot of the country, who is trying to make my country stronger and better than a Russian who is licking) | (he is pin-dosnatiny and other zapodoids and sprinkles mud on his people and his history.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 24 June 2013 10: 51 New
          -1
          The only Jew I respect is Anatoly Wasserman! And about the “Russians” who lick the 5th point to Amers, etc., can the whole list be announced?
          1. rodevaan
            rodevaan 24 June 2013 10: 55 New
            +2
            Yes, there were such among my friends - and alas, a lot. It was disgusting to listen and communicate with such people. Therefore, I do not communicate.
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 24 June 2013 11: 00 New
              -1
              And I thought you were about famous personalities!
              1. rodevaan
                rodevaan 24 June 2013 11: 56 New
                +2
                Do you name famous personalities? Sorry, even among the super-famous - there are enough Judas:
                EBN, Tagged, Kozyrev, Bakatin ... Few cattle?
                Here I can still deduce such a list of the national shame of the country ....

                Regarding Wasserman - I agree with you.
              2. Rider
                Rider 24 June 2013 12: 11 New
                -2
                Quote: Den 11
                And I thought you were about famous personalities!


                можете ознакомится:http://mrswi5tmmfsdq.nruxmzlkn52xe3tbnqxgg33n.erenta.ru/2jmj7l5rSw0y
                Vb-vlWAYkK-YBwk = ODE3NS5odG1s

                Well, here's one of the last: June 22, 2013 | 19:55
                // keep in mind that after three years the boy can’t put candles. Why? - surprised mom. - This leads to homosexuality //
                It seems that only one thing will help this country - a nuclear explosion over the entire territory, followed by rolling asphalt and settling by the Japanese. True, then Russia will become Japan. Or India, if populated by Indians. Although this is such a damned place, that after all, Indians can become Russians.
                http://echo.msk.ru/programs/persontv/1100038-echo/comments.html#comments
  • Sanyht
    Sanyht 24 June 2013 10: 15 New
    +1
    which only filth did not touch our war ??? my grandfather was in Shepetivka on the day the horror started! in the morning, only one Nazi plane dropped one powerful bomb and lighters ... dozens of trains with equipment, weapons and fuel burned down (the station was full, and the trains were arranged so that EVERYTHING burned out!) ... Enough to take it away: AND AS IT WOULD IF IF YES !!! !!! GRANDFUL WINS UNDER ANYTHING FOR ANYTHING! ... horror of the situation: current DEFENDERS in their uniforms are important: debauchery, theft, understatement, fraud and it looks like very little smart and decent people?
  • Valery-SPB
    Valery-SPB 24 June 2013 10: 16 New
    +1
    With such a diplomatic background, could Stalin consider the non-aggression pact with Germany (Molotov-Ribbentrop) as a guarantee for his entire 10-year term? Of course not. But he seems thought that on the part of Hitler at least formality will be respected - a peace treaty is denounced or a war is declared, as is the case with Poland. This is Stalin wrong, so he seemed to wait and hesitated, hoping that military action in the morning of June 22 was a provocation, and that peace could be prolonged. respitegiven by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact for the rearmament of the country.


    I am always disrespectful to those authors who personally claim that they know what this or that Great Political Leader "thought" about at a turning point in history.

    War was nevertheless declared. I don’t know, I didn’t check when the German ambassador came to Molotov and how long he waited in the waiting room. And if he came before the attack and brought a statement by the German government about the start of the war?

    Did we really fight with Germany until June 22? From what comrade Stalin decided to arrange a peaceful respite, meaning a break in any activity?
  • rodevaan
    rodevaan 24 June 2013 10: 22 New
    +3
    5 to crush his column, all sorts of cutters, falcons, satanidze, and others like them. Their name is a legion, they gave birth to this muck in the country - apparently invisible. Here we sweep this garbage out of the country - and the external enemy will not be scary anymore.
    After all, what is the paradox? All this pack of pro-Western garbage - the State Department costs 10 times cheaper than one old B-52, and does 10 times more damage and dirt.
    Correctly says the old Russian proverb - "your mess and chaos will be worse than any enemy."

    This is what - they will soon announce that Stalin was the first to attack - and what is most surprising - there are a bunch of idiots who will believe this!
  • rodevaan
    rodevaan 24 June 2013 10: 38 New
    +2
    I think that for the new generations, it’s not the anti-Russian and pro-Russian derms that pour mud on our country and our ancestors from all zombies around the country, it’s necessary that every Russian person educates his child himself and puts real human values ​​into his fragile head - the concepts of a strong and friendly family, honor, duty, justice, mutual respect and mutual assistance between people, love for the country, for its history, for its great people, for sport, for work. And if everyone in his own place and in his life does it himself, then we can grow a worthy generational change and keep our people in a normal healthy state, and not in that perverted-degenerate bio-form, with crazy-senile concepts of values ​​that we see in the west.
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 24 June 2013 10: 48 New
    +4
    It's funny to look at all this western fuss. After all, Hitler was guided not so much by fascist ideas as by his own brain cocktail. In which Black Bon played a big role, a strange and very little-known thing ... But he believed that the Germans were descendants of predators. While the Slavs and the Anglo-Saxons descended from reptiles ... Such is Darwinism, firmly squinting in a very old mysticism.
    And our stupid dubai, with a moronic smile, repeating that they used Bavarian, could not even imagine what was actually used. And the same applies to the Anglo-Saxons, whom Hitler would have burned systematically, gradually and steadily. Yes, they financed it. Even when it came to the conclusion that it was necessary to destroy it at the root ... They just hoped that everything would come out as usual - with both hands they would destroy both threats - a powerful industrial Germany and a rapidly growing USSR.
    That is, the mind and skills of Stalin and his comrades turned out to be much larger than the minds and skills of the entire Western world combined. And the valor and moral-volitional qualities of a Russian person are far beyond their understanding and capabilities. And do not care what the Westerners and their paid singers think there. The most important thing is understanding in Russian minds. If we manage to keep our picture of the world, all of us whom the world of the West is poisoning and trampling on will join us in a completely natural way. But the name of these people is legion, and these are not the worst people!
    1. ziqzaq
      ziqzaq 24 June 2013 12: 04 New
      +1
      Quote: Mikhail3
      After all, Hitler was guided not so much by fascist ideas as by his own brain cocktail

      Yeah, I watched a documentary about Adolf Aloisovich, I don’t know whether it is possible to believe its author, but there is a detailed analysis of the defeat of Germany in WWII 2, Hitler's health was seriously damaged by the 36th year, and he was treated not by doctors (specialists), but by the charlatan Morell who stupidly put him on drugs ....
      So after five years, Adolf Aloisovich simply tore off the roof, how it ended everyone knows ....
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 24 June 2013 20: 25 New
        0
        Stimulants then ate many. They did not believe too much in their long life, and so far they did not imagine any harm. But to consider Hitler a banal drug addict is a big mistake. You can’t sit still at the top of the mountain, it’s completely ruled out.
        Such a fallacy is based on the notion of a higher authority born of unsatisfied desires. They say there you just need to order and everyone jumps and performs. Not done - torture! shoot! order others, and they are in fear ... The highest power is work at the limit, or even beyond the limits of human capabilities. This is not modern democracies for you - it’s set in the bushes. The rulers of those years were entirely extraordinary people.
        Probably took something. Since in the end it collapsed as a person ... but at the same time it retained power until the end! So he was so stronger than his very strong generals. No, the brains of this reptile were clear. Just - not a couple to us.
  • Standard Oil
    Standard Oil 24 June 2013 11: 07 New
    +4
    "The state for its security needs not only physical, but also moral power"
    Nikolai Mikhailovich Karamzin (1766-1826) - Russian historian-historiographer, prose writer, poet.
    With this, to put it mildly, it’s rather weak. And it’s not the Jews, the Americans, the world backstage, or the aliens who are to blame, but we ourselves are to blame.
    1. Victor Kamenev
      24 June 2013 11: 22 New
      +3
      The great thought of our great historian, which must be implemented. I am glad that we have this understanding, we must promote it with all our might!
  • PValery53
    PValery53 24 June 2013 12: 13 New
    0
    Of course, the politicians of Europe and their media send a polemic about World War II to the line of comparisons of Hitler and Stalin with the intent to divert criticism from themselves for Europe’s mean behavior before the war. This Western Europe does not constantly inspire confidence. And this must be taken into account when dealing with it.
  • Rider
    Rider 24 June 2013 12: 18 New
    +4
    In my opinion, this will be just the topic.
  • pensioner
    pensioner 24 June 2013 12: 22 New
    +5
    Of all the top officials of European states only Stalin did not shake hands with Hitler!.
    1. wlad59
      wlad59 24 June 2013 12: 31 New
      0
      Is that an argument ??? But Stalin raised a toast to Hitler's health! ((after signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
      1. pensioner
        pensioner 24 June 2013 13: 24 New
        0
        Quote: wlad59
        Is that an argument ??? But Stalin raised a toast to Hitler's health! ((after signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

        Do you know this: "All words, words, words ..."?
    2. Apologet insane
      Apologet insane 24 June 2013 16: 24 New
      -1
      Churchill, by the way, had never met Hitler. I am silent about the fact that he never concluded any pacts with him.
      1. Taoist
        Taoist 24 June 2013 17: 35 New
        +3
        Well, yes, the pact concluded another prime minister. The truth is also true at Ch ... But the cabinet has changed and it seems like there was no Munich? By the way, the same Churchill said that about the pact?

        "In favor of the Soviets, it must be said that it was vital for the Soviet Union to push the initial positions of the German armies as far west as possible ... If their policies were coldly prudent, then they were also ... highly realistic." And again, he says that it was precisely the pre-war British policy that forced Stalin to take this step: "The Soviet proposals were practically ignored ... Events took their course as if Soviet Russia did not exist"
        1. Apologet insane
          Apologet insane 24 June 2013 17: 54 New
          -4
          And about Munich, what did he say? Churchill is a great historical figure, I respect him.
          1. Taoist
            Taoist 24 June 2013 20: 11 New
            +1
            “England had to choose between war and shame. Her ministers chose shame in order to get the war later. ”(C) W. Churchill
      2. wk
        wk 24 June 2013 19: 07 New
        +3
        Quote: Apologet Insane
        Churchill, by the way, had never met Hitler. I am silent about the fact that he never concluded any pacts with him.


        this does not justify Great Britain and the West as a whole .... Chamberlain concluded a pact on the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia, and even before the war with the USSR I recall the flight of Rudolf Hess ... shortly before his possible release, a prison fire was fired and he died, but he could tell the truth about those days
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 24 June 2013 19: 32 New
          0
          He was “pulled up,” officially suicide
          1. Setrac
            Setrac 24 June 2013 20: 14 New
            +2
            Quote: Den 11
            He was “pulled up,” officially suicide

            Traces were noticed, customers killed the artist.
        2. Apologet insane
          Apologet insane 25 June 2013 16: 41 New
          -2
          Stalin also does not justify that Trotsky and Lenin bloody red terror started during the civil war. He is from the same gang.
  • ed65b
    ed65b 24 June 2013 13: 22 New
    +5
    At the edge of the pond at the edge of the river until the end of the 50s a t-4 tank stood, if it weren’t for a shepherd to have killed by lightning, from a thunderstorm climbed to hiding, still standing. Yesterday, a fire was lit in a forest on a picnic, a shell exploded, 6 were wounded, there were no dead. All land is still crammed with iron and bones. The terrible war went through, they won it no matter what. And we obgazhivaem themselves. It’s understandable that they won’t forgive the victory abroad, but their homegrown pi ... Weren't pioneers ??? They lie and lie. Tired already. It's time to put an end to it. for denying our victory in prison for 2-3 years let the brain set. Who for whose health did Stalin drink for Hitler and another for him, and where does it? All that they could do was to postpone time to rearm. Yes, I think, if I suggested Stalin to dance a hopak in front of Hitler for the sake of peace, he would dance.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 24 June 2013 13: 31 New
      +1
      I agree! Just about hopak ... Rather, Hitler needed this pact more! He wrote to Ribbentrop: Agree to ALL the conditions of Stalin
      1. stoqn477
        stoqn477 24 June 2013 14: 38 New
        -5
        Without this pact, Hitler might not have attacked Poland. If Stalin had not freed his hands, how can one be sure that, besides England and France, he will not have to face the USSR somewhere in Poland? When the Red Army invaded Poland, they initially thought that they had come to help. And if they really come to the rescue? Hitler had committed suicide long before 1945. laughing
        1. Rider
          Rider 24 June 2013 15: 41 New
          +3
          Quote: stoqn477
          Without this pact, Hitler, possibly, did not attack Poland.


          the most important thing in your post is the word POSSIBLY

          I also draw your attention to the fact that Austria and Czechoslovakia were joined to Germany
          and without the aforementioned pact.

          AND WITH FULL APPROVAL AS ENGLAND WITH FRANCE, SO AND POLAND.

          I hope uv Stoyan, you do not need to explain what the "Munich agreement" is.
          1. stoqn477
            stoqn477 24 June 2013 16: 53 New
            -4
            I know the Munich Agreement. wink But there is little difference between France and England to transfer Czechoslovakia to Hitler and he occupied without a fight. But the attacks on Poland have a different situation. France and England sides with poles. As the saying goes, "strange war" or not, Germany was declared a war.
            1. Rider
              Rider 24 June 2013 17: 13 New
              +2
              then why do you blame the USSR for starting a war?

              Does the non-aggression pact bother you?

              and you are not embarrassed by the fact that by the year 39, ALL KEY COUNTRIES OF EUROPE signed such agreements with Germany?

              Do you know that Poland threatened to declare war on the USSR if it begins to help Czechoslovakia?
              that the very Poland was seriously considering the possibility, together with GERMANY, of attacking the USSR.

              and let me remind you, the USSR sent troops to the territory of western Belarus and Ukraine IN 17 DAYS the field of the beginning of the war.
              and actually the Polish lands (except Bialystok) did not occupy.
              1. stoqn477
                stoqn477 24 June 2013 20: 02 New
                -2
                Does the non-aggression pact bother you?

                I think that not only am I embarrassed by this pact (for me this is a document written 70 years ago), I think that most were embarrassed, by England, France and mainly Poland. Nevertheless, she signed the damage.
                and you are not embarrassed by the fact that by the year 39, ALL KEY COUNTRIES OF EUROPE signed such agreements with Germany?

                Which countries exactly?
                that the very Poland was seriously considering the possibility, together with GERMANY, of attacking the USSR.

                It seems to me doubtful and unlikely.
                and let me remind you, the USSR sent troops to the territory of western Belarus and Ukraine IN 17 DAYS the field of the beginning of the war.
                and actually the Polish lands (except Bialystok) did not occupy.

                If I understand you correctly, are you saying that the USSR did not occupy Polish territory or not? Judging by the card that is used, I would say that this is not so. If not, I understood you correctly, although I apologize.
                1. Rider
                  Rider 24 June 2013 21: 09 New
                  +1
                  excuse me, but I get the impression that with the collapse of the eastern bloc, they began to teach you an alternative story from the books of Soros (like us at one time)

                  I just studied in a Soviet school, and unlike you I know that England signed a contract with Germany in 38g
                  (wiki search - Anglo-German Declaration 1938)
                  france also (wiki search - Franco-German Declaration of 1938)
                  and Poland already in 1934 (wiki search Non-aggression pact between Germany and Poland)

                  and here’s for your information, at a time when the USSR ATTEMPTED TO COMBINE ANTI-GERMAN UNION WITH ALL FORCES,
                  England AT THE SAME TIME, conducted separate negotiations with Germany.
                  (wiki search - London talks (1939))
                  but I understand that you have not been taught this.
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 24 June 2013 21: 19 New
                    +1
                    I will continue
                    about the card.
                    you brought a bare card without names,
                    and I will provide you with a card with the names (if the attachment)

                    so we see that with the exception of the Belostotsky ledge and several places, we didn’t chop off anything Polish
                    Well, you will not consider Polish Brest Lviv Volokovysk Grodno, etc.

                    Well, if you are, then now you are to Ukrainians and Belarusians with pritenzy.
                    1. Rider
                      Rider 24 June 2013 21: 20 New
                      0
                      So I thought that the card will not work.

                      Here is the reference:http://www.runivers.ru/docandmat/maps/Pakt_Molotova_Ribbentropa/Polsha-1939-diph
                      is.gif
                      1. stoqn477
                        stoqn477 24 June 2013 22: 45 New
                        -2
                        Sorry, but you say that you do not get part of the territory of the Polish state was mildly ridiculous. However, the address of the attached file on the map says Poland in 1939. Did you ask the Poles before joining the USSR? Personally, I doubt it.
                      2. Rider
                        Rider 24 June 2013 23: 31 New
                        0
                        Quote: stoqn477
                        You asked the Poles before joining the USSR


                        what kind of poles?

                        these lands were mainly inhabited by Belarusians and Ukrainians.

                        but the most interesting is that these territories were joined to Poland during the unsuccessful Soviet-Polish war for the USSR in 1920.
                  2. stoqn477
                    stoqn477 24 June 2013 22: 56 New
                    -1
                    you brought a bare card without names,

                    I received the map given to me from Wikipedia.
                    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D
                    0%BF%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B4_%D0%A0%D0%9A%D0%9A%D0%90
              2. Rider
                Rider 24 June 2013 22: 54 New
                0
                Quote: stoqn477
                that the very Poland was seriously considering the possibility, together with GERMANY, of attacking the USSR.

                It seems to me doubtful and unlikely.


                I forgot to answer these points.
                Well then:Poland’s accession to the Anti-Comintern Pact (or, at least, an open statement by the Polish leadership that Poland is a political partner of Germany and a strategic adversary of the USSR).
                (wiki search - Events before the Second World War in Europe)
                and:On May 21, 1938, the Polish ambassador in Paris, Lukasevich, assured the US ambassador to France Bullitt that Poland would immediately declare war on the USSR if he tried to send troops through Polish territory to help Czechoslovakia.
                (wiki search - Munich agreement)
      2. Taoist
        Taoist 24 June 2013 17: 39 New
        +1
        “One should not forget that it was Poland’s position that became the decisive weight thrown over the scales during the Sudeten crisis. If France refused to fulfill the treaty on protecting Czechoslovakia from German aggression, the Soviet Union alone was ready to render military assistance to Czechoslovakia (although not by agreement he was obliged to do this separately from France.) But Soviet troops could enter Czechoslovakia only through Polish territory. Poland, however, was not going to give the “go-ahead” to pass the Soviet troops.

        Poland’s position also played an important role in disrupting the Moscow talks of July-August 1939 on the military alliance of the USSR, France and England against Germany. The failure of these negotiations, as you know, became a direct prelude to the conclusion of the Soviet-German non-aggression pact. Representatives of the Western powers (English Admiral Drax and French General Dumenk) all the time made the conclusion of a military convention dependent on the consent of the Polish government to provide its territory for the deployment of Soviet troops against Germany. However, they soon confessed that they did not at all have the authority from their governments to conclude such a convention, and Poland had nothing to do with it. However, indeed, during the days of negotiations, the Polish leadership has repeatedly stated that it is ready to be satisfied with help only from France and England and does not need the assistance of the USSR. "(C)
      3. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 24 June 2013 20: 37 New
        +1
        Wouldn’t attack our most important enemy in Europe? To a country that was actively preparing and consistently pursuing a line to separate large territories from the USSR? Which did not hide aggressive plans, harming the USSR wherever possible?
        When, as a result of your diplomacy, they crush your enemy, and you do not spend your people's lives and resources on it - what is it called? With what fright should we HELP the Poles ?! But Stalin, even contrary to all of the above, offered help! In my opinion, he was extremely generous. What did the Poles say? Apparently it was necessary to go forward, shooting at the dissenters with the help of the Poles, preventing them from protecting ...
  • rodevaan
    rodevaan 24 June 2013 16: 33 New
    +1
    So their own homegrown is doing all the rotten work for vrazhin. They are betting on them. To the fooled gingerbread sausage, seriously thinking that “the West will help us”, well, plus the paid media, Satanidzas, and other cutters ...
    That's where the cancer is. Here's what you need to sweep!
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 24 June 2013 20: 30 New
    0
    In our Smolensk region, peat burns (and burns there or there, count it every year) so there is an almost continuous cannonade. Not artillery preparation, but a harassing fire for sure. How many shells, mines, bombs are there! After all these years ....
  • heruv1me
    heruv1me 24 June 2013 13: 26 New
    +1
    Regarding the declaration of war, it still was, though a few hours after it began. And Ribentrop transmitted the message, and our embassy in Berlin was notified. So there you go.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 24 June 2013 13: 34 New
      -1
      It was a matter, only practically BEFORE the attack itself.
    2. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 24 June 2013 20: 41 New
      +1
      It was like this - at first I stuck a knife, then said - that I don’t like you, let's discuss? Very honest, right?
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 24 June 2013 20: 51 New
        -2
        Swung, said that I do not like you and stuck.
  • Alexey M
    Alexey M 24 June 2013 13: 46 New
    +5
    Yes, even if Stalin wanted to attack Germany! Who else ..... does someone else's military doctrine eat and do not make excuses for the defeatists. They fed Hitler themselves, merged themselves, and we cleaned the shit for them for 4 years. It was a pity to stop firing in Lamansh so that we had a country from ocean to ocean.
  • Evrepid
    Evrepid 24 June 2013 15: 52 New
    0
    Quote: Renat
    s. Marauders forget to answer another "simple question": what was the international situation before the Second World War?

    Rather, the whitening of their actions for countries such as the USA and England, like then it was necessary to fight along with the USSR in order to defeat Hitler. and now it is necessary to destroy the USSR (RF) because of the invaders.
  • Taoist
    Taoist 24 June 2013 17: 51 New
    +2
    By the way, an interesting chronology:

    11 April 1939 year Hitler approved a plan of attack on Poland (plan "Weiss")

    In response to the French and English initiatives of 17 on April 1939, Moscow proposed to conclude an English-French-Soviet agreement on mutual assistance of the following content [11]:

    1. England, France, and the USSR enter into an agreement for the duration of 5 — 10 years for the mutual obligation to render each other immediately all possible assistance, including military, in the event of aggression in Europe against any of the contracting states.
    2. Britain, France, the USSR undertake to render all possible assistance, including military assistance, to the Eastern European states located between the Baltic and Black Seas and bordering the USSR in the event of aggression against these states.
    3. Britain, France and the USSR undertake to promptly discuss and establish the size and form of military assistance provided by each of these states in pursuance of §1 and §2.
    4. The English government clarifies that the aid it promised Poland would mean aggression exclusively from Germany.
    5. The existing treaty between Poland and Romania is declared to be in force for any aggression against Poland and Romania, or is canceled altogether as directed against the USSR.
    6. After the opening of hostilities, Britain, France and the USSR undertake not to enter into any negotiations whatsoever and not to make peace with the aggressors separately from each other and without common agreement of all three powers.
    7. The relevant agreement is signed simultaneously with the convention, which has to be worked out by virtue of §3.
    8. Recognize the necessity for England, France and the USSR to enter into joint negotiations with Turkey on a special agreement on mutual assistance.


    19 April 1939 at a meeting of the English government committee on foreign policy discussed a note by State Secretary of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs A. Cadogan, where he wrote:
    However, it is very difficult to refuse the Soviet proposal. We have argued that the Soviets preach “collective security,” but do not make any practical suggestions. Now they have made such proposals and will criticize us if we reject them.
    There is a risk - albeit very distant - that lies in the fact that if we reject this proposal, the Soviets may enter into some kind of “non-interference agreement” with the German government

    26 April at a meeting of the English government, Foreign Minister Lord E. Halifax said that "the time is not ripe for such a comprehensive proposal."

    On June 9, British Ambassador to Germany Henderson visited Goering and told him that if Germany wished to enter into negotiations with England, she would receive a "non-friendly answer." On June 13, Henderson met with Weiszeker, State Secretary of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs, who noted in the notes about this conversation that the English ambassador “clearly having an order, spoke about London’s readiness for negotiations with Berlin ... criticized English politics in Moscow” and “ attaches no importance to the pact with Russia "

    On November 28 on June 1939, the German Ambassador to the USSR, Schulenburg, in an interview with Molotov, stated that "..the German government wishes not only normalization, but also an improvement in its relations with the USSR"

    Is the sequence clear?
  • Shadowcat
    Shadowcat 24 June 2013 17: 55 New
    +1
    The article is useless, alas. :(
    You won’t get to fools, but smart ones themselves know how to believe Europe.
    1. asadov
      asadov 24 June 2013 18: 59 New
      +1
      I do not agree with you. Need to say, scream about it. Nowadays it is impossible otherwise.
      1. Shadowcat
        Shadowcat 24 June 2013 22: 00 New
        0
        It’s also true, only fools change their minds faster than a silly dog ​​that catches a flea.
  • Alf
    Alf 24 June 2013 18: 33 New
    +1
    Quote: Apologet Insane
    Roosevelt left the country with much, but without the Gulag and mass repressions.

    Read about defarming.
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 24 June 2013 20: 43 New
      0
      Yes, he read. Judging by some signs, he's from Seattle from somewhere. Or from near Lviv, trying for a small share ...
  • bear
    bear 24 June 2013 20: 43 New
    +2
    It is interesting how modern bureaucrats would behave if they find themselves in the same situation as Stalin. They would crap and raised their hands, went to lick the legs of the geyropa. The more I learn about Stalin, the more respect I have for this man who, from a beggarly country, made the country victorious in the war and flew into space. And to me, hell, what the geyropa and mattresses think about him and with whom he compares. The main thing is that we know our history and pass it on to descendants unchanged.
    1. Prohor
      Prohor 24 June 2013 22: 00 New
      -1
      "Invariability" - it includes millions of innocent victims in the 20-30's. It’s not necessary to do the sacred a la Nicholas II from Stalin, it’s necessary for the descendants both about the 45th and the 37th to transmit everything.
      1. ia-ai00
        ia-ai00 25 June 2013 10: 49 New
        0
        Do not Stalin so humiliatecomparing him with Nicholas II, and somehow he’s not a saint, his hands are to his elbow in blood, to take at least the events that occurred on the Khodynka field and in general, I am amazed, for such merits he was ranked among the Saints ? For the fact that he was shot? So how many around the world killed by violent death, including kings, and kings, however they did not become SACRED. And in general, the mediocre king, read the historical literature about his "being" since his childhood, I think the attitude towards him will change dramatically. I can recommend reading the book Unclean Power, Valentina Pikulya.
  • Prohor
    Prohor 24 June 2013 21: 57 New
    +2
    If Stalin was preparing to attack Germany, then under the slogan "Freedom for the working people!" Hitler never hid his own: "Everything except the Aryans is a dumb scum worthy only of the fate of working cattle!" Therefore, they should never stand on the same board, even if they assumed the same method of achieving the goal - the war. The goals are absolutely incomparable ... And who is who in this life - it was very eloquently written on the Reichstag in the 45th.
  • mithridate
    mithridate 24 June 2013 22: 38 New
    +1
    it’s unlikely that we will ever learn the truth ... Too much has been done to hide the ends in the water
    1. rodevaan
      rodevaan 25 June 2013 06: 41 New
      +1
      We learn the truth. If we openly understand, we will begin.
  • high
    high 30 June 2013 10: 19 New
    -1
    Academician, director of the institute, Y. Pivovarov: historians and archivists of the institute concluded on the basis of documents:
    ,, Stalin was preparing an offensive war.
    The blows were to be delivered in August 1941 to areas of southern Poland, East Prussia, Budapest ...
    But Hitler began the war on June 22.
    There was no plan of defensive war. They started to “improvise” on the go and “improvise” to Moscow .... ,,
    1. Taoist
      Taoist 30 June 2013 11: 43 New
      0
      I would like to see at least one such "document" ... Resunoids were sick of it.
      1. high
        high 30 June 2013 14: 57 New
        -1
        When the archives are opened, then you will see ...
        The archives of Marshal Zhukov are now open, I do not think he heard anything about Rezun ...., but the general outline is being seen:

        ,, .. Failures of the first period of the war, Stalin explained that fascist Germany attacked the Soviet Union suddenly. This is historically false.
        There was no surprise attack by the Nazi troops. It was known about the impending attack, and the surprise was invented by Stalin in order to justify his miscalculations in preparing the country for defense.

        We did not have a full High Command - Stalin was very poorly versed in operational-tactical issues.
        Stalin, not knowing the details of the situation on the fronts and being insufficiently competent in operational matters, gave unqualified instructions, not to mention the incompetent planning of major counter-measures that, according to the current situation, had to be carried out ...
        I have no doubt that if our troops in the western border zone were put on full alert, as the General Staff suggested, and had the right structure and clear tasks to repel the enemy’s blow immediately with the start of their attack, the nature of the struggle in the first hours and the days of the war would be different, and this would affect its entire subsequent course.
        The Headquarters of the Supreme High Command was created belatedly and was not prepared to practically take control and carry out qualified command of the Armed Forces.

        Was Stalin the creator of any operations at all?
        Yes, unfortunately, was ...
        According to Stalin's plan, an operation was planned and carried out in the Baltic states in the Libava region, which was repeated to no avail and, except for heavy victims, did not produce anything.
        Extremely illiterate operations were conducted north of Warsaw, as a result of which many tens of thousands of our people died.
        Stalin was repeatedly informed that, according to the conditions of the area, an operation could not be carried out there, however, such arguments were rejected as “immature”, and the operation was repeated many times with the same results ...

        I cannot ignore the fact that Stalin forced the representatives of the General Headquarters of the Supreme High Command and the front commanders without any need to carry out hastily organized operations, without sufficient material and technical support, which led to enormous losses ... ,,
        1. Taoist
          Taoist 30 June 2013 17: 30 New
          0
          "Name sister, NAME!" (c) I mean at least one fact in favor of your absolutely unfounded allegations. At least one document. Now even the archives of Stalin himself have already been opened in the public domain - not to mention a bunch of military documents. No facts have been found yet. Moreover, I will tell you as a career military officer - the military bureaucracy will be worse than the civil one. It is impossible to prepare for the "first strike" and not leave a mass of traces in a huge array of interconnected documents. So they still have not been found. They didn’t find it at the beginning of the war (when the Germans got a bunch of our military papers and plans), although I really think the Goebbels department "the earth was digging on this subject." They didn’t find it later, they didn’t find it now ... So if you want (like Rezun and Co. to fall like this) to consider the USSR an aggressor then yes, it’s impossible for you to either ban or dissuade it. Well, if you still want to be objective, then do not give out speculation for facts ... You also tell about “jackal planes” about “freeway tanks”.
          1. high
            high 30 June 2013 19: 13 New
            0
            I don’t think that it is necessary to question the published archives of Marshal Zhukov .., especially since Zhukov was the chief of the General Staff ....
            When, for example, Zhukov’s memoirs came out, many participants in the Second World War were surprised that he didn’t even remember Uborevich, Blucher, Stern, with whom he served and fought ....
            Now, when Zhukov’s archives were opened, some historians saw Zhukov’s manuscript strewn by the authorities .... where he condemned the destruction of the Red Army general before the war .... and remembered his comrades Blucher, Stern .., but especially warmly he remembered the commander of Uborevich ....
            Zhukov considered the enormous losses of the Red Army in the first months of the war because of the destruction of the generals of the Red Army when yesterday's lieutenants commanded the regiments ...

            We are gradually forgetting our front-line writers through whom the war went ...
            Book of V. Astafiev "There is no answer to me":
            ,, ... Comrade Stalin burned the Russian people and Russia in the fire of war ... ,,.
            This is a heavy accusation - there is truth about the war.
            1. Taoist
              Taoist 30 June 2013 19: 45 New
              0
              War has no truth, by definition. And the saying "lies as an eyewitness" ... everyone knows. Nobody forgets anyone. And the books of the same Nekrasov, Astafyev Vasiliev and many others who wanted to read that ... Only "everyone thinks he is a strategist seeing the battle from the side" ... History has no subjunctive mood and we can only assume how it would turn if it happened by to another. And we cannot evaluate the facts in full judging those cases from the height of our current "afterglow." And the marshals and generals are also people, with their shortcomings, "skeletons in the closet" and vanity. So what about history by memoirs?
              And yet ... here you clearly hate Stalin and consider “the root of all troubles”, someone on the contrary considers him “the genius of all times and peoples and the inspirer of all victories” - but both are equally distant from the truth.

              By the way, you haven’t brought a single fact or document other than general words in defense of your position ... At least from your mythical “Zhukov’s archive” ... Let us cut through quiet sadness?
              1. high
                high 30 June 2013 23: 39 New
                +1
                I didn’t give a link to Zhukov’s archive - everything is on the Internet .... I went to Googol now and typed Zhukov’s archive; he gave me dozens of sources - I tell you one:
                http://www.novayagazeta.ru/gulag/56846.html

                About Stalin ... just read:
                ,, On November 26, 2010, the State Duma of Russia adopted a statement “On the Katyn tragedy and its victims”: ,, ... the mass shooting of 15542 Polish citizens in Katyn was carried out according to the direct order of Stalin and is a crime ... ,,
                or
                Memoirs of a member of the Central Committee of the CPSU E. Shatunovskaya, who investigated the crimes of Stalin:
                ,, The KGB sent detailed data on the repression.
                For us it was a shock.
                From January 1935 to June 1941, 19 million 840 thousand people were repressed. Of these, seven million were shot in NKVD prisons! .... ,,
                How can one relate to Stalin after that? ....
                1. Taoist
                  Taoist 1 July 2013 08: 26 New
                  0
                  Is Novaya Gazeta an archive? Or a source? You know, it’s “bullied” to read in the yellow press about “one hundred and five hundred milliuns of executed and repressed” - these figures are not only not documented (for example, there are statistics from the NKVD from 22 to 53 year - internal statistics, without any additions) But they also can’t withstand elementary checks logic. (Such a quantity of ZK could not be delivered to the Gulag and there it was elementary to supply). About the "study of history by memoirs" I already wrote to you.
                  There is a separate song about Katyn ... - there are a lot of discrepancies there. For example, why the execution was fought from German weapons. But if the NKVD were so prudent, then where are the documents for the purchase of a batch of these weapons and where are the acts for writing off cartridges (imported and expensive)? And so it’s possible for everyone ... Stalin was not an angel, and there were repressions, but what a paradox - now he is sitting more than in the "terrible 37 year" ... But who benefits from the scale and objectives of repression? The question is pure ...

                  Here is a link to the "statistics of the NKVD repressive activity from the 22 to the 40 year" - the figures are terrible but they are far from those voiced by you ... Everything is checked.
                  http://stalinism.ru/dokumentyi/statistika-repressivnoy-deyatelnosti-ogpu-nkvd-19
                  21-1940-g.html