Military Review

The accession of Western Ukraine to the USSR as a necessity or a mistake of the Stalin period?

117
The accession of Western Ukraine to the USSR as a necessity or a mistake of the Stalin period?

From the next news, which came from Ukraine, it became known that the deputies from Galicia propose to the Ukrainian parliament to remove the term “Great Patriotic War” from the regulatory documents and textbooks.


These deputies suggest that the term "Great Patriotic War" be considered inappropriate historical the truth, which, in their opinion, contradicts European approaches to the assessment of World War II, provokes misunderstandings and conflicts in Ukrainian society.

Probably, in this way, the actively-aggressive nationalist minority once again seeks to rewrite history in their favor, and this is understandable why, their fathers and grandfathers were on the other side of the front line, so they really do not want to continue to be descendants of the vanquished.

For some reason, the descendants of the winners recently more and more often began to forget that their country was one of the first among the republics of the Soviet Union to take the perfidious blow of the enemy in June 1941, and was occupied by the Hitlerites the longest, that Soviet Ukraine suffered the greatest losses in the years of the war, and that it lost 40% of its total national wealth. During the war in Ukraine, 214 cities and urban-type settlements became ruins, more than 28 thousand villages, about 10 million people lost their homes.
But the most terrifying was the loss of life. 8,5 million inhabitants of the republic died on the fronts. The total number of civilians killed was 5,3 million (January 1941-May 1945), 2,3 million were forcibly taken to Germany.

For the overwhelming majority of the people of Ukraine, this was a real Patriotic war, a war of national survival, and now it is proposed to replace the opinions of millions with tolerant European approaches.

Now it’s not customary to write about the Great Patriotic War in modern history textbooks of Ukraine, now history is written differently there, probably the descendants of the very defeated, who still live in the same state next to the descendants of the winners, write.

How could it happen that the region that has recently become a part of a country, is meant by historical standards recently, the region is mostly mentally alien for a large part of the population of Ukraine. And suddenly, this very land - the so-called Polish Galicia has now turned out to be the main historical and national legislator for the whole of modern Ukraine?

All of this nationalist leadership of Galicia did not arise "suddenly" and not from scratch. Connoisseurs of history know that all of today's political events taking place in Ukraine are regularities and consequences of the results of the famous Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, according to which the famous joining of the autumn of 1939 took place, this is when Western Ukraine became part of the Soviet Union called - Galicia.

Events developed so rapidly that the Soviet leadership, probably then in 39, simply did not have time or could not correctly calculate all the negative consequences associated with the accession of Western Ukraine to the USSR.

Immediately after the defeat of Poland by the Germans, the mechanized columns of the Red Army troops rushed to meet them from the east, the main thing then was to get ahead of the Germans and reach the agreed frontier in time, as a result, our army in a very short time occupied almost all of Galicia and part of Eastern Poland.



At first glance it seemed that historical successor of the Russian Empire also triumphed over historical justice - the USSR regained control of its ancestral lands.

Yes, primordial, but if we keep in mind the territories of the Baltic States, Western Belarus and parts of eastern Poland, and Galicia had never been Russian before, it didn’t really become Ukrainian, although the time since the accession was already decent, more than 73 of the year.

Why has Western Ukraine still not become “its own” for the rest of Ukraine?

Probably, because before joining the Ukrainian SSR, the people of Galicia lived for centuries in other empires and states, for example, the capital of this region, Lviv, was part of Poland and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (from 1349 to 1772), then Austro - Hungary (in the period from 1772 to 1914), and only four years, Lviv was Russian, it was in the years of WWI from 1914-1919, then it became Polish again (in the period from 1919 to XXUMX).

Back in the distant 1939, no one could have imagined that by adding Western Ukraine to the USSR, thereby, the then Soviet leaders with their own hands rolled a kind of “Trojan horse” onto the common then for all of us - the territory of the Russian-Ukrainian statehood.

The Soviet leadership, taking a decision to include into the USSR an absolutely alien region, both socially and historically, did not take into account all the complexity and all the features of the military-political situation that had developed at the time of the entry of Soviet troops into Galicia.

Probably, the large-scale military-diplomatic events of the fall of 1939 didn’t notice the then Soviet leaders of their strategic miscalculation, which manifested itself only decades later in the future of the 21 century. However, blaming the same Stalin for the fact that he added new lands to his country is also not true, as there is never any extra land for any state.

But the holding of Sovietization, and even on the eve of the outbreak of world war in a turbulent, border region, was undoubtedly one of the most serious mistakes of the country of the Soviets. Although the Soviet secret services then worked quite effectively and the leadership of the USSR probably was very well informed about what was happening in the cities and villages of pre-war Galicia and, nevertheless, stubbornly continued sovietization until the very beginning of the war.

This is how Pavel Sudoplatov, a well-known veteran of the Soviet special services, described the situation in Western Ukraine in 1939 in his memoirs:

“Galicia has always been a stronghold of the Ukrainian nationalist movement, supported by such leaders as Hitler and Canaris in Germany, Benes in Czechoslovakia and Austrian Federal Chancellor Engelbert Dolfus. The capital of Galicia, Lviv, became the center to which refugees from Poland, fleeing from the German occupying forces, flowed. Polish intelligence and counterintelligence sent all of their most important prisoners to Lviv — those who were suspected of playing a double game during the German-Polish 30 confrontation.



About what happened in Galicia, I learned only in October 1939, when the Red Army occupied Lviv. The first secretary of the Communist Party of Ukraine, Khrushchev and his people's commissar of internal affairs, Serov, went there to conduct a sovietization campaign in Western Ukraine on the spot. My wife was sent to Lviv with Pavel Zhuravlev, the head of the German direction of our intelligence. I was worried: her unit was occupied by German agents and underground organizations of Ukrainian nationalists, and in Lviv the atmosphere was strikingly different from the state of affairs in the Soviet part of Ukraine.

The Western capitalist way of life flourished in Lviv: wholesale and retail trade was in the hands of private traders who were soon to be liquidated during Sovietization. The Ukrainian Uniate Church enjoyed great influence, the local population supported the organization of Ukrainian nationalists headed by the people of Bandera. According to our data, the OUN acted very actively and had significant forces. In addition, she had a wealth of clandestine experience, which, alas, was not a Serov "team."

The counterintelligence service of the Ukrainian nationalists was able to quite quickly track down some secret apartments of the NKVD in Lviv. Their method of surveillance was extremely simple; they started it near the building of the NKVD city department and accompanied everyone who went out in civilian clothes and boots, which made him a soldier: the Ukrainian security officers, hiding uniforms under their coats, forgot such a trifle as shoes. They, apparently, did not take into account that in Western Ukraine only military men wore boots. However, how did they know about it, when everyone wore boots in the Soviet part of Ukraine, since it was simply impossible to get another shoe. ”

The fact that the OUN was a very serious adversary was spoken by the example of the same bourgeois Poland, where in the 20-30-ies the Ukrainian nationalists quite actively fought against the Polish domination in Galicia and not only by propaganda, but also with the help of terror, they could even reach One of the key ministers of the Polish government was Interior Minister B. Peratsky, who initiated the creation of concentration camps in the country and advocated decisive measures against the Ukrainian nationalists. In 1934, Peratsky was killed during the terrorist attack.

This attempt was organized by Stepan Bandera, who in 1936 was sentenced to death, together with his direct perpetrators, and later commuted to life imprisonment.

We must pay tribute to the Soviet secret services, which, long before entering the territory of Galicia, monitored the activities of the OUN and even conducted short and effective special operations directly against the leaders of the Western Ukrainian nationalists, the NKVD seemed to have a premonition that the struggle against the Ukrainian nationalists would be long and bloody.

So, back in 1938g. NKVD officer Pavel Sudoplatov destroyed the then head of the OUN Yevgeny Konovalets, the former head of the Sich Riflemen Corps.

Soon after the unification with the USSR, the nationalists realized that Soviet Ukraine was not their ideal of Ukrainian statehood, and that it was not along the way with the Soviets.

As a result, with the beginning of the war, the USSR acquired itself into opponents other than the German Wehrmacht also the whole insurgent army in the person of the OUN and all this in the strategically important southwestern direction, where Galicia together with Transcarpathia was the gateway to the southern regions of Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, the Czech Republic and further to southern Germany.



As is known, with small interruptions, starting from 1941 and 1953, the year in the territories of Galicia was an active fierce armed confrontation between the security forces of the USSR and the NDP on the one hand and the UPA troops on the other.

After the defeat of the UPA about the odious Western Ukrainian nationalism could not be heard for nearly 30-ti years.

However, with the beginning of perestroika, the real dawn of this very nationalism suddenly arrived, its renaissance, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, turned out to be like an opened Pandora's box. It turns out that in the end, the accession of Galicia, to the USSR, as a whole, played an extremely negative role in the fate of the entire former USSR and not only.

History does not tolerate type expressions if it would, but even if the Soviet leadership were in 1939g. removed itself and made it possible for fascist Germany to fully occupy Galicia, then in the 1944 of the Red Army it would still have to win back, while the clashes with the UPA were still unavoidable, as it happened with the Polish AK.

The accession to the USSR in 1939 of Western Ukraine was probably the result of the military-political situation that had developed at that time, the hostage of which in the end was the then leadership of the Soviet Union.

It was impossible not to attach these territories then, and at the same time, to attach this center of Western Ukrainian nationalism to Soviet Ukraine was extremely unprofitable and dangerous, which later was fully confirmed by the entire post-war history of Soviet and post-Soviet Ukraine.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Western Ukrainian nationalism in its most odious forms, like rust, penetrated far to the east of Ukraine.

Who would have thought even 25-30 years ago that such times would come when many citizens of modern Ukraine will have to defend the fact that their fathers, brothers or grandfathers fought and died for their Fatherland precisely in the Great Patriotic War, are the descendants of the defeated condemned this aggressive minority , will achieve their goal and put it next to you, in one line, including all the descendants of the winners?
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  1. biglow
    biglow 16 June 2013 07: 42 New
    +3
    This affiliation happened by the kindness of the sincere Russian people. When everyone and everyone wants to help, but sometimes this is not worth it.
    1. Nicholas C.
      Nicholas C. 16 June 2013 09: 37 New
      +6
      The kings, when sharing Poland with Austria and Prussia, for some reason preferred not seemingly ethnically closer Galician Uniates, but territorially more distant Poles. Something they justified such a decision.
      1. Avenger711
        Avenger711 16 June 2013 16: 59 New
        +1
        Under Catherine II, RI did not attach ethnographic Poland in practice.
      2. Sirius-2
        Sirius-2 16 June 2013 18: 14 New
        0
        Alexander I, at the Vienna Congress of 1815 when dividing the Napoleonic empire, he had a choice: either Poland or Ceylon. He chose Poland: Ceylon is far away, and Poland is behind the Neman. Lviv was already Austrian then, i.e. with an ally. Still small, but a touch, Alexander himself for some reason loved Poland, had some kind of weakness for it. Theoretically, Alexander could have turned to his Austrian colleague with a proposal for an exchange: we will give you Catholic Poland, and you will give us Galicia. The fact is that in the city of Lviv, Catholics historically lived, but in the villages the peasants were Orthodox. But it turned out as it happened. Personally, I consider Alexander to take Poland a big mistake, a mistake of a historical scale. Ceylon, we also do not need. Better indemnity would pay off.
        1. evfrat
          evfrat 16 June 2013 23: 00 New
          +3
          ... "Catholics historically lived in the city of Lviv" ...

          This is not at all historical. Catholics prevailed in Lithuania and Galicia only after the Union and the forcible catholicization from the end of the 16th century. Trace the fate of the icon of the Ostrobramskoy Mother of God and the monastery of Ostrovaya Brama, in the Russian city of Vilna (Volnoe).
        2. FREGATENKAPITAN
          FREGATENKAPITAN 17 June 2013 02: 25 New
          +2
          EEEEE ........... how not needed? Now we would drink good tea .... this is of course a joke, but in fact Alexander really considered Poland a historical part of Russia, about which the Russian Tsar should take care and so on ......... and indemnities? ..... ... Fu ... three pennies for two days for the Great Empire ............... Proven by history already ...... Poland is not Russian ... then under the "German"
    2. vBR
      vBR 16 June 2013 17: 45 New
      +2
      What does kindness and spiritual help have to do with it? These are East Slavic lands lost during historical upheavals. And it doesn’t matter that there were many who opposed it. Then the problem was brilliantly solved, and what happened then is the responsibility of those who lived half a century later.
    3. Kolya
      Kolya 16 June 2013 21: 48 New
      +4
      When the Russians “occupy”, they rebuild the territory for the “occupied” Russians. When Europeans occupy it, they rob it, the territory is rebuilt by the occupied, and after that - the destruction of the occupied (millions of civilians were extinct in central and eastern Ukraine). And it’s not the winners who write the story, but the one who remained alive! It is unfortunate that millions of peaceful Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians, and other Slavs — annihilated by Europeans — are now silent.
  2. treskoed
    treskoed 16 June 2013 07: 42 New
    18
    These deputies suggest that the term "Great Patriotic War" be considered inconsistent with historical truth, which, in their opinion, contradicts European approaches to the assessment of World War II and provokes misunderstandings and conflicts in Ukrainian society.

    At one time there were courses in Kolyma on the formation of a worldview. Even the SS warriors were enlightened.
    1. avt
      avt 16 June 2013 09: 29 New
      +7
      Quote: treskoed
      Even the SS warriors were enlightened.

      Yeah, yes, so when Khrushchev, for example, made the Hungarian amnesty, they briskly displayed the fruits of enlightenment in the 56th year;
      1. fatty
        fatty 19 June 2013 20: 58 New
        0
        yeah, Khrushchev, handsome, lazy fabulist, Misha comb
        Einer, yes, fighting alcoholic. What can I say, a worthy platoon.
    2. pensioner
      pensioner 16 June 2013 09: 29 New
      +1
      And what Gurus they had! Download it! And the morning wasn’t enough yet ... I’ll go and repeat. Take away Galicia!
    3. MG42
      MG42 17 June 2013 02: 52 New
      +3
      Ukrainian MPs now have immunity, so they put forward all sorts of laws ..
  3. Valery-SPB
    Valery-SPB 16 June 2013 07: 53 New
    +6
    Do not spread jam on herring! Why in one question mix national issues and questions of the strategic deployment of armies? And here is the western way of life? Until 1917, part of Poland with Warsaw and with Western Galicia as part of the Russian Empire, the East - at Austria-Hungary. Poland is the fruit of the decisions of the Allied victors in 1918. Right, for 20 years, there is such a traditional Western image!
    Back in World War I, the Russian military planned the war with Germany and its allies from the direction of the Southwestern Front during strategic defense in the direction of East Prussia. A significant part of the Russian officers, who transferred to the Red Army, contributed to the strategic planning of the future war according to the same scheme.
    National - national, and military - military.
    1. haron
      haron 16 June 2013 10: 56 New
      +4
      Quote: Valery-SPB
      And here is the western way of life? Until 1917, part of Poland with Warsaw and with Western Galicia as part of the Russian Empire, the East - at Austria-Hungary.

      It’s interesting, what do you think was your way of life? Or for 150 years under Russia, they forgot how they lived the previous 500 years? Or maybe the current Caucasus and Central Asia were likened to European Moscow and Peter, they had at least 200 years time.

      This "western way of life" did not go anywhere. It may not be as "glamorous" as in the Bundes or the British, but this way of life is still western and not oriental.
      1. Valery-SPB
        Valery-SPB 16 June 2013 11: 55 New
        -2
        Quote: haron
        This "western way of life" did not go anywhere. It may not be as "glamorous" as in the Bundes or the British, but this way of life is still western and not oriental.


        There is a concept of civilization age. 19th century - after the end of the Napoleonic Wars. 20th, since 1914. It is approximately. Before World War I, the ideology of the Western way of life did not exist for Russia. For Poland, these are newly annexed territories. The previous 500 (?) Years? request

        I am aware of the existence of two states, the Grand Duchy of Moscow and the Grand Duchy of Russian, Lithuanian and Samogit. Prince of Poland Konrad Mazowiecki admitted to the territory of Poland the Teutonic Order. The Poles, through no fault of Moscow, lost Prussia. It was the Russian prince Jagiello, by personal union at the end of the 14th century, who became the Polish krill, connecting the miserable crumbs of the former mighty power to the Russian-Lithuanian princedom. Even Novgorod, alas, was annexed to Muscovy in 1478. hi
    2. Nicholas C.
      Nicholas C. 16 June 2013 13: 17 New
      +4
      Quote: Valery-SPB
      Until 1917, part of Poland with Warsaw and with Western Galicia as part of the Russian Empire, the East - at Austria-Hungary.

      Here is a map of Galicia in 1897. All of it is part of Austria. In this form, it will go to Poland after the 1st World War. What is Western Galicia in the Russian Empire? Really remembered that Lublin, etc. in the time of Daniil of Galich were still Chervona (Black) Rus?
      But under Stalin, Galicia is really divided. What is characteristic: in the Stalinist half, Galicia is quite prosperous. But in the western European part, the Galician were cut out by the Army of the Craiova, and in 1947 the Poles finally resolved the issue within the framework of the Vistula operation, when the remaining part of the Galicians was partially resettled to the lands inherited from Germany, partially sent to the USSR, where the Galicians were resettled in Kharkov and Sumy regions. At the time of the completion of the Vistula operation, Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Hutsuls, Lemkos, Boyk, etc. ~ 10-20 thousand remained in the Polish Galicia (mainly in mixed families), now there are ~ 70 thousand of them all. Why Galicians are diligently silent and bypassing the topic of losing half of their lands, I personally can not understand. For thousands of years, these lands have been preserved by their ancestors with their blood.
      io.ua/2857411 - map of Galicia 1897goda.

      PS. How did I get this "interface" of the forum. You don’t always insert a picture. And constant brakes. Is it really so hard to find qualified programmers.
      1. Valery-SPB
        Valery-SPB 16 June 2013 14: 34 New
        0
        If Little Poland and Chervonnaya Rus are not part of Galicia, then I'm sorry. The Congress of Vienna in 1815 divided Poland (Section 4). Russia received the lands that went to Austria and Prussia as a result of the Third Section (Mazovia, Podlasie, northern part Lesser Poland and Chervona Rus)
  4. 094711601
    094711601 16 June 2013 07: 55 New
    +4
    Lviv is one of the most beautiful cities in Ukraine, but the people who lead it are a bunch of bastards! What to do, historically, the "zapadents" like to creep under Europe-Who will pay more!
  5. Captain Vrungel
    Captain Vrungel 16 June 2013 08: 05 New
    16
    Stalin did not have a mistake in returning the “titular Ukrainians” to the “cathedral Ukraine” as part of the USSR. And they all lived happily, amicably and merrily. As soon as Ukraine became "independent", they immediately ate, worse than the neighbors in the commune. They correctly say that there is nothing worse than the hatred of relatives.
    Conclusion. Bring everything back to square one. Live peacefully, friendly and happily. Well, Ukraine was not given to be "independent", historically not given. The mentality is not the same. Something like little gold, another, like shit full. If in a large team this is hardly noticeable, then in the family it gushes. If I'm wrong, then prove it historically. When did we live as a friendly family? Yes, never. They always fled to someone to protect and preserve.
    On the issue of "thoroughbredness" of the Ukrainian nation, yes. Such a multinational cocktail of blood, no nation in the world has. We are the most international. So that the concept of nationalism, a nationalist in Ukraine is flawed and untrue.
    My classmate, a local leader of the Ukrainian cossacks and a nationalist, in addition, to my question, "Eugene! You have grandmothers, one Greek, a second Jew. Grandfathers, one Russian, another Bulgarian. How did you become a Ukrainian, and even a Cossack (we don’t have Cossacks, we are Kozaki.) It turned out that he was Ukrainian in his heart and according to the old passport. (For reference. All of us former Jews communicated to Ukrainians. Yatsenyuk, Tyagnibok, Farion. Even Azarov is trying to speak Ukrainian surzhik.) All Shyri Ukrainians .
    1. biglow
      biglow 16 June 2013 08: 37 New
      +4
      you are very right when there are no traditions of statehood, all the more so with so many different peoples living together, so nothing happens and people only suffer and how it all ends long ago. Former rulers will go to live in Europe and the people will work for many years to come restoration of everything destroyed
    2. zvereok
      zvereok 16 June 2013 08: 47 New
      10
      There is only one sense, Ukraine, Russia, Belarus should be under a single political leadership. For example, I would vote for Old Man in the elections, although he is already old.
      1. vilenich
        vilenich 16 June 2013 09: 37 New
        +8
        Quote: zvereok
        For example, I would vote for Old Man in the elections, although he is already old.

        Yes, how old he is, he is also not 60! He could have managed the overall process for a decade.
        1. True
          True 16 June 2013 09: 53 New
          +8
          But father can! Strong man! "... I would rather be a dictator than ..." (c)
        2. evfrat
          evfrat 16 June 2013 23: 03 New
          0
          He’s just without a monkey appendage and Botox, like some ... so it feels like))
    3. Egoza
      Egoza 16 June 2013 11: 49 New
      +4
      Quote: Captain Vrungel
      Even Azarov is trying to speak Ukrainian surzhik). All Shyri Ukrainians.

      Azarov has no way out, because the deputies say that "the Prime Minister of Ukraine should speak Ukrainian.move" how he works - no one cares, but here's the mov - it is mandatory!
      1. MG42
        MG42 16 June 2013 13: 01 New
        +4
        Quote: Egoza
        The Prime Minister of Ukraine should speak at ukraine. mov "how it works - no one cares, but mov - definitely!

        Elena, Azarov apparently has a special. the mission to discredit the Ukrainian language movement, since it distortes it throughout Ukraine, you still have to try, even a parrot can be taught to speak better and without such a terrible accent .. it was conceived ..

        To administrators. Please remove AutoCorrect abbreviation <UKR> automatically writes Ukrainian on the topic and without. UKR = this is not an insult, but simply a reduction, too lazy to write in full. You can forbid the word <dill> then, it is rarely used here but in the UKR forums this greens are often used as an insult to nat. featured.
    4. Egoza
      Egoza 16 June 2013 11: 55 New
      +7
      Quote: Captain Vrungel
      (For reference. We have something all the former Communists Jews went to Ukrainians. Yatsenyuk, Tyagnibok, Farion.

      They forgot to add Klitschko here, although he is now diligently “cleaning” his biography. And the most important thing is Julia! Which is Tymoshenko’s passport, and Kapitelman, grandfather and grandmother. fellow
      1. Ivanovic
        Ivanovic 16 June 2013 13: 48 New
        +2
        And we also squint under internationalists, we accuse someone of nationalism. And then ...
        1. Egoza
          Egoza 16 June 2013 17: 54 New
          +5
          Quote: Ivanovic
          accuse someone of nationalism. And then ...

          If you do this to me, then you are mistaken, dear. I have many friends of various nationalities, including Jews. Here we are talking about people who are afraid to name their nationality, hide it, and generally deny it in every way, i.e. betray their ancestors. And the one who betrayed his ancestors is a POTENTIAL TRAITOR. And whatever these people say, no matter how they "bake" about Ukraine and its people, they will betray you as soon as the opportunity presents itself. IMHO.
          1. vBR
            vBR 16 June 2013 22: 24 New
            0
            And I tell you, as an expert in the study of this matter, that most of them will die with faith in their "Ukrainians" and the sacred mission to save the "nation." This is self-identification, not blood! Some of them use the "Ukrainian" category for purely instrumental purposes - "people" are somehow glad, you can grab cheap popularity, but most of them are sincere fanatics. And the ethnic affiliation of relatives, like Tymoshenko, they simply do not stick out, are silent or somehow explain - there are a million ways to dodge. For Hitler, for example, the presence of Jewish "roots" didn’t hurt a bit. All these communities - nations, races - are basically imaginary things, they exist and they begin to be used as a difference when a sufficiently large mass believes in it and someone is interested in breaking off someone or quarreling with someone. Or vice versa - rally
    5. egsp
      egsp 16 June 2013 21: 56 New
      0
      Joseph Vissarionovich generally had no mistakes
      1. fatty
        fatty 19 June 2013 20: 39 New
        0
        mistakes, my dear, everyone has.
      2. Firstvanguard
        Firstvanguard 27 June 2013 20: 17 New
        -1
        There were, but to be so rude, it was definitely not.
    6. ars_pro
      ars_pro 17 June 2013 01: 21 New
      +2
      Ukrainians, by the way, as I understand you, and the rest of the brethren in principle, I can tell people living and if we talk about colloquial speech and not only, the issue of origin is separate, since it touches on the mental essence, they speak more pure Ukrainian in the center, like Poltava and the region , the main overtones through both Kiev and the question about who feels and who identifies themselves, is completely different, but good!
      Simply put, on the example of neighbors in the same communal apartment, it would be worse without neighbors, there are already many factors of interaction that are worth developing and cooperation that needs to be valued, which is not unimportant.!
  6. fatty
    fatty 16 June 2013 08: 11 New
    +1
    Yes, of course, a mistake, and this can not be discussed. and on the subject of beauty of Lviv, my friend, all the Slavic cities of eastern Europe were built by the Germans (Austrians), which is the same thing. Ukraine has the most beautiful Kiev, it is fabulously beautiful, because it was built by us. Kharkiv is very good, its historical part, although recently it has been heavily worn out by remake. I still really like Poltava. A beautiful city. It is real Ukraine, but not lions in any case.
    1. Ivanovic
      Ivanovic 16 June 2013 10: 44 New
      +3
      Quote: fatty
      , but in no case not lions.

      so you are the only one or is it ideologically, if Western Ukraine, is everything bad there, even though you were there? And Donetsk, I don’t have anything against it, why did you miss it on your list, so it wouldn’t be so noticeable.
      1. fatty
        fatty 19 June 2013 20: 28 New
        0
        remember, in your ...... lviv was never and never am going to be, like in your western one. it is only you, smelly western buggers, who rush here in the Donbass and Russia, choking on with vomit, sho our zymlya.
    2. Old_kapitan
      Old_kapitan 16 June 2013 17: 13 New
      +4
      Ukraine has the most beautiful Kiev, it is fabulously beautiful, because it was built by us. Kharkiv is very good, its historical part, although recently it has been heavily worn out by remake. I still really like Poltava. A beautiful city. It is real Ukraine, but not lions in any case.
      Chernihiv forgotten. Even the people of Kiev go nuts!
      1. fatty
        fatty 19 June 2013 20: 35 New
        0
        I'm sorry, brother, I haven’t been to Chernihiv, they say that your old churches are very beautiful? sorry, poltava is the best.
  7. borisjdin1957
    borisjdin1957 16 June 2013 08: 16 New
    +3
    from the Don.
    : Don’t judge, but we won’t judge:! It’s not for us to judge our grandfathers! What happened, happened. But Ukraine, the fifth column in the face: zpadentsev: headache! And hardly anyone will answer what to do with this!
    1. Egoza
      Egoza 16 June 2013 12: 00 New
      +1
      A clash of representatives of the Freedom All-Union Public Organization with supporters of pro-Russian and left-wing organizations occurred on Thursday before the start of a speech by Irina Farion, a freelancer, at the Odessa Cultural Center.
      Brawls in which several dozen people from both sides took part took place several times.
      "We knew that they wanted to prevent us from having a meeting, but we didn’t think that it would come to a violent conflict," said MP from Svoboda Pavel Kirilenko.
      Among the representatives of the opposite side near the building of the cultural center were members of the public organization Youth Unity, the Rodina party and the Communist Party. They accused their opponents of initiating the conflict, saying that they had come to the building of the center with the aim of holding a peaceful rally.
      Police officers tried to take the situation under control. In the process of advocating Farion, the tense atmosphere at the building continued. The parties made several attempts to start a new fight. Personal injuries were received by several people. The meeting in the assembly hall of the center was held without excesses.
      The people's deputy from "Freedom" Irina Farion, presenting her books in Odessa, said that nationalism is not politics, but the law of nature, and Serdyuchka is "an image of Little Russian degeneration." And also taught Odessa residents - The words "Odessa" and "Odessa" are the only correct formulations for the inhabitants of Odessa.

      Such an opinion during a speech in Odessa was expressed by a philologist, deputy, one of the leaders of VO "Freedom" and just a wonderful woman Irina Farion.
      “Odessa is Odessa. Sorry. Because the same logical form is Ukrainian, this is the same model as. Good shape, ”said Irina Farion. I wonder what Madame Farion would say about the idea of ​​calling Lviv citizens Lviv residents.
      1. vBR
        vBR 16 June 2013 22: 31 New
        +2
        What a fool this I.Farion, even straightforward as a rhino wink Well, it's even good, it will be easier for us - when we finally get to these comrades soldier
  8. Aeneas
    Aeneas 16 June 2013 08: 41 New
    10
    Everything was logical: the development of nationalism in Ukrainian lands, the annexation of Western Ukrainian lands and their integration into the common union space, as well as the renaissance of nationalism in our time and not only in Ukraine. Another kind of renaissance is quite possible - the revival of internationalism and Soviet power, although this is a slightly different topic. In fact, Ukrainian nationalism is not original. It arose in the mid-19th century in the "spring of peoples." When European nations such as Germans (united and created Reich), Hungarians (rebelled against Austria), Poles (rebelled 2 times against Russia), Italians (rebelled against Austria and created Italy) etc. Only in some cases did nationalism shake the foundations of states; in other cases did the metropolis contrast nationalism with nationalism. This is how Austria opposed Polish nationalism in its eastern provinces, Ukrainian or still Russian. Then, already in the 20th century, Western Ukrainian nationalism became radical in its confrontation with Polish (which became state), and overgrown with theoretical calculations of Dontsov, Sziborsky and other figures. And why did Ukrainian nationalism subside in Central (Big) Ukraine after its heyday under Petliura? Yes, because in Ukraine, the Bolsheviks tactically very competently decided to lead the process, which could not be immediately strangled after the Civil. So the phenomenon of Ukrainization arose, as a result of the policy of indoctrination of the Bolsheviks ... The intellectual political flexibility of the 20s during the formation of the Soviets in Ukraine was not in demand in the 39th and 40th. For the USSR was in the halo of military-political successes, and there was nothing to flirt with any nationalists. And this policy showed results when the Union became weak, but at the same time politically not flexible. Nationalisms of all stripes: Russian, Ukrainian, Georgian and Armenian (the most vociferous), Baltic destroyed the country. And now it will not be easy to revive the Union, because, as it turns out, representatives of different nationalities understood different things under the USSR. For example, Vladimir Putin, believes that the Soviet Union-this was Russia. And will the Kazakhs, Belarusians, Armenians, Ukrainians and other nationalities, for whom nationalism is a natural feeling, agree to become Russia?
    1. Ivanovic
      Ivanovic 16 June 2013 10: 47 New
      -3
      Quote: Aeneas
      Everything was logical: the development of nationalism in Ukrainian lands
      - simply for the common development, what do you mean by this "nationalism", because some are confused here. Google, what is nationalism.
      1. Aeneas
        Aeneas 16 June 2013 12: 50 New
        +3
        everything connected with nationality is, to one degree or another, nationalism: national democrats, national socialists, national communists, Zionists, Slavophiles ... and bourgeois nationalists invented by Soviet propaganda. The same patriots are also nationalists, for most modern countries are national states. Well and further, it is already arbitrary can be differentiated into "bad" nationalists and "good". For example, Vladimir Putin considers himself a good nationalist.
        1. Ivanovic
          Ivanovic 16 June 2013 13: 12 New
          -4
          Quote: Aeneas
          The same patriots are also nationalists, for most modern countries are national states.

          So the word nationalist is still not abusive.
          Quote: Aeneas
          Well, then, it’s already arbitrary can be differentiated into “bad” nationalists and “good”

          Oh, and here is more detailed: if you are a patriot of Russia, then you are a good nationalist, and if you are a patriot of Ukraine, you are bad.
          1. vBR
            vBR 17 June 2013 00: 06 New
            +1
            I will answer your previous post: nationalism is a political ideology that uses key categories of an ethnic group, nation or race, considers them as culturally homogeneous communities (all supposedly share the same thing and want the same thing) and expose the supreme object of loyalty (commitment) ) These categories, in principle, at first can exist only in the minds of nationalists or there is already some kind of source material that has developed in the past time through the efforts of other national-building projects. Whom to include in the "nation" and who to exclude depends on the preferences of the nationalists. If, over time, their ideas become widespread, then these imaginary communities become real power. Previously, it was customary to distinguish ethno-nationalism (exclusive) and civic nationalism (including), now they see it in a slightly different way, but these are subtleties, God bless them. Any policy is now based on the category of people or nation, in this sense it is not only in the Sultanate of Brunei. The project of Russian communism was a project of Gradjan nationalism, while not rejecting the "self" of different peoples and even cultivating it at one time, but as Russocentric. The French revolutionaries and Napoleon, in order to put together the French civilian nation, on the contrary, burned out all ethnic differences, even renamed departments by river names.
            If you are a patriot of Russia or Ukraine ... No, of course, this does not say anything about badness or goodness. Anyone can call himself anything, it’s all spelling words. There is a “Russian patriot” Shafarevich (and Solzhenitsyn, but he was wiped out to the west) honestly participated in the Cold War on the side of the enemy, hand in hand with the dissidents, just each on his own flank. Then he carried nonsense in the newspaper tomorrow along with the same ones, ah Yeltsin did not think about the people, extinction, the hassle of communism, the Central Asian underbelly ... Such people harmed more than the Sakharovs, along with all the bonners, they at least did not try to appear as defenders, they cut honestly - let the USA will use nuclear weapons to stop the threat of Asian Russian communism
    2. opkozak
      opkozak 16 June 2013 22: 19 New
      +1
      Quote: Aeneas
      Hungarians (rebels against Austria)

      9 times !!!!!
    3. vBR
      vBR 16 June 2013 23: 07 New
      +1
      You write "everything was logical," and I would say that happened historically. The "logic" of nationalism as an ideology and, in general, the emergence of (ethno-) national identities and their use in politics is associated with the development of capitalism, this phenomenon was promoted by the growing informational connectivity of the population, the press appeared, general education, mobility increased. Before this loyalty was local and religious, well, somewhere very, very far lived the king, king or emir. Specific activists and organizations stood behind the nation-building projects, without their stories and stories no one would have “recalled” their national feelings. This metaphor is creation, not awakening.
      Your last interesting thesis: inflamed ethno-national identifications will complicate the creation of a new Union. Absolutely, this is an obstacle. But we must remember that all that stupid media broadcasts is the statements and actions of organizations. Concrete people act and broadcast (and in most cases natural impostors), ethnonations are fictitious, they are not a collective individual. But there are many people who actively want to be the new Soviet people, it will be very cool loyalty, if supported by deed. Well, since ethno-inflammation is also in large part, then you just need to cool and explain, well, absolutely incorrigible, refusing peaceful coexistence, that ... angry
      In general, your post is very useful, I agree with everything, of course, plus smile
  9. alex13-61
    alex13-61 16 June 2013 08: 59 New
    +6
    I remember that Kravchuk, as president, gave the idea of ​​creating autonomy in Galicia ... and he had good thoughts - to isolate Galicia in any way.
  10. Akim
    Akim 16 June 2013 09: 03 New
    11
    Lviv was a part of Poland and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (from 1349 to 1772), then as a part of Austria-Hungary (from 1772 to 1914), and only four years, Lviv was Russian, this is in years WWII from 1914-1919, then it became Polish again (from 1919 to 1939)

    Lviv - was founded by Prince Danil Galitsky, who reigned once in Kievan Rus - which means he is territorially Russian. It went through a historical reunion.
    1. MG42
      MG42 16 June 2013 12: 55 New
      +4
      Quote: Akim
      it means he is territorially Russian.

      Beer on the box often with this Galician Galicians advertise lol
      1. Akim
        Akim 16 June 2013 16: 06 New
        +2
        Quote: MG42
        Beer on the crate often with this Galitsky

        to the word "Lvivske 1715" is a good beer, like Kvass Taras. Lviv chocolate is very tasty. They say that coffee is not bad, but I don’t drink coffee. If Odessa were fed so tasty and for the same money, then they would have to LOSE VERY long. Chinakh is a separate word in a diet.
        1. MG42
          MG42 16 June 2013 16: 24 New
          +3
          Quote: Akim
          to the word "Lvivske 1715" is a good beer, like Kvass Taras. Lviv chocolate is very tasty. They say that coffee is not bad, but I don’t drink coffee.

          Yes there is .. and there is kefir Galichina
          1. Akim
            Akim 16 June 2013 16: 41 New
            +4
            Quote: MG42
            Yes there is .. and there is kefir Galichina

            When I was there for the first time (still a cadet in practice at a radar plant)) - a normal city. Yes, there are cockroaches, but if you do not pay attention to them, it's pretty comfortable to live there. And to focus on politics is who to do cool.
            1. MG42
              MG42 16 June 2013 17: 36 New
              +3
              Products and policies separately.
    2. Egen
      Egen 17 June 2013 08: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: Akim
      Lviv - was founded by Prince Danil Galitsky


      So I didn’t understand, I thought I forgot the story :)
      http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D1%8C%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B2
      Everything is correct, with 1349 in Poland, but before that, why does the author not mention ...
  11. avt
    avt 16 June 2013 09: 26 New
    +8
    Quote: Akim
    Lviv - was founded by Prince Danil Galitsky, who reigned once in Kievan Rus - which means he is territorially Russian. It went through a historical reunion.

    And characteristically, the prince was the first and last monarch in Chervona Rus who was led to the European choice and the pope crowned him, naturally promising military assistance in the event of an attack. Then the pope crowned practically everyone, the Germans in the Holy Empire directly blessed the others. centuries later, Napoleon renewed the tradition. Well, and the result? “Did your Poles help you son?” They threw it. But Leo’s son learned from this lesson. So Alexander Yaroslavich did the wise when he was hacked with the crusaders, but he was in alliance with the Horde. Well, on the topic of the article, it’s possible to note In 1913, General Durnovo wrote a report to the future martyr Nicholas No. 2 on the inadmissibility of a war with Germany and, if the situation in life would be successful, not joining Galicia to Little Russia .And the aforementioned Sudoplatov with Khrushchev barked after the war, Khrushch forcibly took young Galicians to study and work to Eastern Ukraine. Not pr Khrushch left him, as did Abakumov, he and Sudoplatov were engaged in his eldest son.Abakumov, who was already sitting when Khrushch took power, was shot, and Sudoplatov spent all 12 years in prison, most of which was in the Vladimirersky central.
    1. Akim
      Akim 16 June 2013 09: 58 New
      +4
      Quote: avt
      And what is characteristic, the prince was the first and last monarch in Chervona Rus who was led to the European choice and the pope crowned him, naturally promising military assistance in the event of an attack

      History is a whore. I put forward their version of the Pole, it does not fundamentally look like ours. I just said that this is a Russian city - it is a fact. And everything else is interpretation.
  12. pensioner
    pensioner 16 June 2013 09: 26 New
    +2
    Nice photo. But is it in Ukrainian history textbooks? And how do the same emblems on the flags and on the uniform of the SS soldiers explain to the children? Enlighten. And what is SS telling children?
    1. Nevsky
      Nevsky 16 June 2013 09: 39 New
      +5
      Quote: retired
      Nice photo. But is it in Ukrainian history textbooks? And how do the same emblems on the flags and on the uniform of the SS soldiers explain to the children? Enlighten. And what is SS telling children?


      I tell you, as a resident of Ukraine, if in a nutshell, then like this:

      "The leadership of the OUN and the UPA at the very beginning of the war of 1941 mistakenly believed that Germany would help establish a free and independent Ukraine (at least under the protectorate) as part of the fight against the Bolsheviks. Therefore, they kindly took part in the parade. But already on June 30, the evil fascists dispersed the meeting OUN, and S. Bandera was thrown a prisoner of war camp. Time of troubles for the movement (what did they do when the Germans were near Moscow?) .... + the topic of the OUN split is being discussed. Where is the "evil" OUN, which is only for the Germans, and "fair" OUN, which are against the Germans, and rotives ... In 1943 there were allegedly clashes with German soldiers and the UPA in mountain villages and foothills ... (data are scarce). And the SS Galicia’s motto has nothing to do with the UPA, it is an independent combat unit (voluntary or forcibly recruited, depending on the audience of the listener) under the leadership of the SS and the Wehrmacht .... In 1944, the UPA actively fought both the Germans and the Red Army ... and links to a bunch of sources ... Well, then the period 1945-1954. He is documented, clear and understandable., Even in the ranks of UPA supporters, albeit with his own sauce .... "

      So in short everything ...
      1. pensioner
        pensioner 16 June 2013 10: 13 New
        +3
        Yes-ah ... Now try to look for these types of sources. Walk around the mountain villages, ask around ... But how is it: against the Germans and against the Reds? But they didn’t .... they were: both with the Wehrmacht and the Red Army? I have long been saying that it is necessary to introduce new titles: "candidate (doctor) of Ukrainian historical sciences."
        1. Egen
          Egen 17 June 2013 08: 40 New
          +1
          Quote: retired
          And how is it: against the Germans and against the Reds?


          That's interesting :) In 41 there were only two forces - the USSR and Germany, even more likely the other way around in order of preference for political choice. Germany seemed to win, it turns out that there were "patriots" who already in 41 raised the banner of the struggle against the mighty enemy (Germany), which, according to the then propaganda and successes, had already dealt with the USSR? Bold, however, some comrades, went against the world's best military machine at that time without a single chance even to survive, not like victory. Somehow it looks ... stupid.
          “Against the red” mind and courage, there wasn’t much to do, ours went to Moscow and Rostov, why not say “we are against you” from a distance from the Polish border? :))
      2. Egoza
        Egoza 16 June 2013 12: 06 New
        +1
        In the United States found the Ukrainian commander of the SS division "Galicia"
        Journalists at the Associated Press say they found one of the former commanders of the SS Galichina SS division living in the United States, a native of Ukraine Michael Karkoc, who is now 94.
        He lives in Minnesota, near the city of Minneapolis, where mostly immigrants from Ukraine live. Karkots came to the United States in 1949, while deceiving the immigration service, hiding the fact of service in the ranks of the SS troops during the Second World War and participation in hostilities, says the AR. In an immigration card discovered by journalists, the man indicated that he worked for his father, and then in one of the labor camps, RIA Novosti reports.

        Journalists of the Autonomous Republic managed to find evidence of eyewitnesses of events that unfolded on the Eastern Front during the war in the Polish state archives. As one of the officers of the Karkots division stated, the soldiers took part in the brutal killings of residents of Polish villages, including women and children. However, it has not yet been established whether Karkots was directly involved in the killings.

        Karkots himself refused to discuss his past with reporters. “I don’t think I can explain,” the agency quoted him as saying.

        According to the agency with reference to declassified documents of the US Army, a standard check was carried out with respect to Karkots, after which he was issued a visa. It was noted that documents from the country of residence of the applicant could not be obtained.

        In 1995, Karkots published memoirs in which he admitted that he was one of the founders of the Ukrainian Legion of Self-Defense, and also commanded a company that received orders directly from the SS.

        SS Galicia Division (official name: 14 I-Waffen-Grenadier Division of the Galicia SS Troops) is the unit formed in the summer of 1943 in Ukraine that participated in the anti-partisan war across Europe. In July, 1944 of the year was destroyed by the Red Army during the battles near Brody, but the excess of volunteers at the first stage allowed to recreate the formation. The division then operated in Slovakia and the Balkans. In the last days of April 1945, the division was formally transformed into the 1 th Ukrainian division of the Ukrainian National Army.
        http://www.versii.com/news/281017/
        1. Ivanovic
          Ivanovic 16 June 2013 13: 19 New
          -6
          Quote: Egoza
          In the United States found the Ukrainian commander of the SS division "Galicia"

          They wrote, but didn’t think, but what about the statement that the Germans occupied the command posts in this division. And here the division commander and the Ukrainian. Probably incriminating evidence against the Ukrainians has ended. How do you get so much anger against Ukraine, where you understand how, and against the same Ukrainians. Indeed, there is an expression that there are no bad nations, there are bad representatives. And if tomorrow they find a Russian there, the division commander at Vlasov, you will relish the same.
          1. Avenger711
            Avenger711 16 June 2013 13: 37 New
            0
            And so that he did not command anything.
            Yes, we do not like Ukrainians. We love the Little Russians, simply, x_o_x_l_o_v. He who knows the story perfectly understands the difference.
            1. vBR
              vBR 17 June 2013 00: 33 New
              +1
              Why make a menagerie on the forum, huh? And write me, not me. Ukrainian is neither Bandera nor Russophobian, ivanovic did not give any reason. Second, the mass of young people grew up after the USSR, studied at a different school, the environment is different. If you don’t have the strength or ability to explain calmly (like Fidget, for example), then at least refrain from causticity. Such posts are contrary to the rules of the forum, read again if you forgot.
          2. Egoza
            Egoza 16 June 2013 15: 35 New
            +7
            Quote: Ivanovic
            They wrote, but did not think, but what about the statement that the Germans occupied command posts in this division.

            All claims to journalists of the Associated Press. This is their information.
            Quote: Ivanovic
            Where did you get so much anger against Ukraine,

            Neither against Ukraine, nor against Ukrainians (Little Russians) there is no malice and never has been. But Bandera - I hate it! My sister-in-law had a Ukrainian aunt who was pregnant, they killed Bandera - they ripped her stomach for not letting her younger sister rape her. They detained them, and the baby and fled. Make peace with these? Dismiss
            1. Ivanovic
              Ivanovic 16 June 2013 15: 55 New
              -8
              What a heart-rending story, but again it doesn’t fit, they wrote Polish ... Jewish, or Ukrainian. Why then did the local population support them. Yes, and maybe it wasn’t “Bandera”? And if not for this story, then loved?
          3. vBR
            vBR 17 June 2013 00: 52 New
            0
            Yes, the title focuses on this - this is how the "Russian" media and magazines work (in the initial emphasis, there seems to be no such emphasis), while there is no one to pinch them on. Well, I copied the article, do not attach any importance to this. This does not mean dislike for Ukrainians. It looks ridiculous, because here from Ukraine it is full of people, and many of them consider themselves ethnic Ukrainians. In general, it is possible to love or not love specific people or structures (since people act there at the same time — the army, state, party, movement), ethnophilia or ethnophobia does not make sense, because ethnoses as an integral "object", and even love, do not exist. For some, such constructs arise in the head, they endow this mythical collective individual with mythical properties, believe in his existence and proceed from this in his actions. Do not get fooled by this smile
      3. Alexander 1958
        Alexander 1958 16 June 2013 12: 50 New
        +6
        Good afternoon! It would be very interesting to learn links to the facts of the active struggle of the OUN-UPA against the Nazis. Moreover, not at the level of defeating a police post in the amount of 2 people, but at the level of actions of Kovpak with his Carpathian raid, Fedorov, Saburov, large-scale operations such as "rail war". Maybe I have gaps in knowledge of the history of the Second World War, I would be grateful if you could help me enlighten .. Alexander 1958
        1. pensioner
          pensioner 16 June 2013 16: 53 New
          +3
          Yes, it’s not your knowledge gaps, it’s their gaps in the fight against fascism.
  13. Balko
    Balko 16 June 2013 09: 51 New
    +7
    Quote: retired
    Nice photo. But is it in Ukrainian history textbooks? And how do the same emblems on the flags and on the uniform of the SS soldiers explain to the children? Enlighten. And what is SS telling children?

    Yes, we tell the children ... Of course we tell ... Only now we, in Greater Ukraine, tell our story, and in western we tell our own. That is, everything continues ... A new generation is growing up, ALREADY divided into two opposing camps ...
    1. avt
      avt 16 June 2013 10: 10 New
      +1
      Quote: Balko
      Only here we are, in Greater Ukraine, telling our story, and in western we tell our own. That is, everything continues ..

      request That's how it is in the Bible, I don’t remember, about the kingdom, what will split? Not very fun fate awaits. Alas, nothing new. request
    2. pensioner
      pensioner 16 June 2013 10: 20 New
      +2
      I have no doubt that you are telling. Well done. And the rest ... Well, to hell with them. They want to be slaves - let them crawl wherever they want, let them lick the busts of their unforgettable Bandera. This is necessary: ​​to exchange such a great history, its involvement in true greatness for the Holodomor and Bandera?
      1. Ivanovic
        Ivanovic 16 June 2013 10: 38 New
        -2
        I won’t go for Bandera, but the famine is history or it didn’t exist. And how then millions of people died of starvation, and there are still living witnesses to it. And you don’t need to attach the famine to anything, speculate on it. It’s just as a fact this must be remembered, that would not be repeated.
        1. pensioner
          pensioner 16 June 2013 11: 06 New
          +1
          Could explain to you WHAT I mean, but I won’t. Do not understand. If, after all, you think about the above, you’ll look at your brain and reach.
          1. Ivanovic
            Ivanovic 16 June 2013 11: 14 New
            -4
            Quote: retired
            Could explain to you WHAT I mean, but I won’t

            the drain is protected, and blasphemy is a parasite on the topic of the Holodomor. There is no difference which side.
            1. pensioner
              pensioner 16 June 2013 11: 45 New
              +1
              I don’t know what you protect - I didn’t understand. but the fact that you can’t turn your brains on, I understand.
            2. The comment was deleted.
        2. Egoza
          Egoza 16 June 2013 12: 21 New
          11
          Quote: Ivanovic
          famine is history or it wasn’t

          Hunger - was! There was no famine! Famine means the deliberate killing by hunger of people of a certain nationality - in this case, Ukrainians. You might think that according to passports someone was given rations, while others were not. The famine was in Russia, and in Kazakhstan, and in Europe, and even in the USA. (For fun, type in Google "the Holodomor in the United States.") Just when we talk about this tragedy, we recognize that there was a famine. But "some" politicians make of this "famine." Do not confuse, please!
          1. Ivanovic
            Ivanovic 16 June 2013 13: 28 New
            -5
            Quote: Egoza
            Hunger - was! There was no famine!
            confuse again, I think that consciously, the famine with the genocide.
            The Holodomor is an artificial famine. The difference is fundamental. And putting hunger in Africa and what was in the USSR absurd on one shelf. And no one forbids saying that there was a famine in Russia, especially in the Kuban, Krasnodar Territory. Ukraine suffered, an indisputable fact.
            1. sergo0000
              sergo0000 16 June 2013 21: 20 New
              +2
              Quote: Ivanovic
              Quote: Egoza
              Hunger - was! There was no famine!
              confuse again, I think that consciously, the famine with the genocide.
              The Holodomor is an artificial famine. The difference is fundamental. And putting hunger in Africa and what was in the USSR absurd on one shelf. And no one forbids saying that there was a famine in Russia, especially in the Kuban, Krasnodar Territory. Ukraine suffered, an indisputable fact.
              What did the starving people look like?


              In order to understand the causes of death of these people, we need to look at the features of the appearance of the deceased - they were swollen and there were a lot of them, such information is contained in the documents on the Holodomor, recently declassified. [15] We began to look in the archives for strictly secret police reports of the time where the dying were reported. The phenomenon was massive, if not to say massive. Swelling is written in their reports to Stalin Khataevich and Kosior.

              The swelling of the starving in 1932–33 is recorded everywhere, while dystrophy is very, very rare. Meanwhile, the well-known cases of well-confirmed hunger are characterized precisely by mass dystrophy. Most do not die, but are thin, turning into living skeletons. The famine of 1921–22 showed mass dystrophy, the famine of 1946–47 showed mass dystrophy, the Leningrad blockade famine — also mass dystrophy, the prisoners of Nazi concentration camps — total dystrophy. But the famine of 1932–33 for some reason is not accompanied by dystrophy - continuous swelling and death.

              It would seem that at the level of everyday consciousness, swelling during hunger is understandable - they drink water. And in 1921–22, didn’t they try to drown out the hunger? And in the besieged Leningrad? And in the years 1946–47? Why then was dystrophy evident?

              The paradigm of the "famine" was reflected in the falsification of photographs and manifested itself in false photographs. In favor of the Holodomor version of 1932–33, there are photographs of the famine in the Volga 1921–22 [3], the very ones that were published in 1922 editions in the foreign press.

              It would seem that if the "famine" was such a universal phenomenon, then there should be at least some photos of the starving, because in those years the camera in the USSR began to become a mass commodity. After all, this is killer evidence - photo documents for the "Holodomor". You just have to be a clinical idiot, publishing fakes with a huge risk of being grabbed by the hand, having photo evidence on hand. There is only one explanation for this - genuine photographs of the "famine" do not exist. Generally. And the available photographs of that time and those places, to put it mildly, do not suggest the idea of ​​mass hunger. Http://www.xliby.ru/
          2. Avenger711
            Avenger711 16 June 2013 16: 44 New
            +1
            E. Prudnikova in a relatively recent interview described the situation at that time that it could even be that the village was standing, 20 yards are starving, 200 are not.
            Well, it is true that the fists first of all needed hunger, they had profit from it.

            In general, I now agree with Mukhin that the reason for the famine is the slaughter of working cattle, there are oxen in Ukraine. In the RSFSR, they plowed on horses, there is no point in killing a horse, Russians do not eat horsemeat. There is no draft cattle, no crops. The result, as soon as possible to Ukraine tractor and in 1935 adopted a law on liability for damage / slaughter of livestock.

            And everyone is to blame, and the greedy peasants, who believed that let the neighbor take the ox to the collective farm, and I would eat my own, if there were no "idiots", and especially those who went and incited to say that all the cattle on the collective farms the city will devour, guess right away, who should have been doing this ahead of everyone, and the authorities that gave the slack when it really needed force through the knee.
        3. Avenger711
          Avenger711 16 June 2013 13: 34 New
          +1
          You are like a savage from a palm tree for which a million intangibles. What is a thousand, that a million, one word, "many." Millions of dead are from the period of German occupation. The mortality from the famine is unlikely to exceed several thousand, after all, help from the center was serious, and then the perpetrators were shot.
          1. Ivanovic
            Ivanovic 16 June 2013 13: 55 New
            -1
            Quote: Avenger711
            Mortality from starvation is unlikely to exceed several thousand, but help from the center was serious

            You’re scoffing, just statistics, see how many people lived in Ukraine from the first census of the USSR in 1926 and how many remain after the famine in 1937. The territory is the same, there was practically no migration. The numbers are terrible and you don’t need to dance on bones here.
            1. Avenger711
              Avenger711 16 June 2013 16: 33 New
              +2
              It’s just you are dancing, and the census of the 36th year was considered falsified and the facts are such that the people who yelled about the horrors of Stalinism themselves killed millions of people together with the country, so I have no doubts about the decision of the Stalinist authorities, but any statement by the liberties should be considered false until proven otherwise.
          2. vBR
            vBR 17 June 2013 01: 59 New
            +2
            According to the statistics of births and deaths in Ukraine, 640 thousand people died, most of all during the winter of 32-33. But it is believed that there was a big underestimation. Some foreign researchers call the figures 3-4 million, but go check it out. S. Kara-Murza wrote that probably the reason for the famine was the new order to seize collective farm grain and store it in elevators. Since they acted according to the pattern of the surplus appraisal, when it was believed that enough grain would remain and so, they cleaned everything out, and there were no longer any autonomous yards with their bread. While the bureaucracy of this new machine was able to react, the chaos that arose in the countryside and in transport did not allow us to quickly save the situation.
        4. vBR
          vBR 17 June 2013 01: 13 New
          +1
          And who says this, that we must not remember the tragedy at all? It was meant here that the whole event was sewn with white threads of anti-Russian and anti-Russian politicians creating a “national history” with the same fervor. The famine is the consequences of very serious distortions during collectivization, which were also in other places. There was and could not be any special purpose for the Soviet state to starve Ukrainians (I’m not even talking about the entire population of Ukraine). And that’s exactly what Yushchenko’s trying to get into
      2. Egoza
        Egoza 16 June 2013 12: 09 New
        +5
        Quote: retired
        They want to be slaves - let them crawl wherever they want, let them lick the busts of their unforgettable Bandera

        So the fact of the matter is that they want to force ALL UKRAINE to "lick their busts ..." And it would be nice if ALL the others living in Ukraine became THIS slaves. am
  14. 128mgb
    128mgb 16 June 2013 10: 31 New
    0
    In Ukraine, residents of the memory are called zapadentsy, and not very much favor. There are not so many of them, but they are noisy like jackdaws. And the economic problems in the country are forcing people to listen to these cries. This is what their successes are based on.
  15. Ivanovic
    Ivanovic 16 June 2013 10: 32 New
    0
    Well, if, in all seriousness, Ukraine is being discussed why Galicia, then logical reasoning is why Russia needs Chechnya, then there are more problems.
    1. alex13-61
      alex13-61 16 June 2013 11: 11 New
      +1
      Quote: Ivanovic
      Why Russia needs Chechnya, there are more problems.

      Reply

      They didn’t hear anything about the domino effect ??? And somewhere in the USSR it happened.
  16. Klin klinovv
    Klin klinovv 16 June 2013 10: 35 New
    0
    what is the use of stirring up a 50-100-year-old history referring to or looking for a connection with the past if four hundred years ago (and to this day) we replaced an ionic void with an ion void that was acceptable to him.
    Tatar-Mongol yoke beat (s)
    Russia is backward ...
    Kulikovo battle ...
    2000 years ago, life was in full swing, but a thousand and a thousand years ago the herznat was there.
    it is clear that everyone knows, guesses, but we are not teaching children today stories, but the information that our authorities accept and transmit to us as truth. There wasn’t this (school textbook) history!
    yes, but the eleventh 09 well, it was totally a terrorist attack (school textbook 2025) DO NOT Doubt
  17. uizik
    uizik 16 June 2013 10: 37 New
    +6
    There will never be unity between the two parts of Ukraine! It is impossible to combine Catholicism, Uniatism and Orthodoxy. Sooner or later you'll have to make a choice.
    1. Ivanovic
      Ivanovic 16 June 2013 11: 07 New
      -5
      Quote: uizik
      combine Catholicism, Uniate and Orthodoxy

      and what you write about, you need to be in the topic --- after all, “Uniatism” is something in between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
      1. Egoza
        Egoza 16 June 2013 12: 15 New
        +5
        Quote: Ivanovic
        after all, “Uniatism” is something between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

        Catholics invented unity, it seems that in the Ukrainian language they allow all services, but they obey the pope. This was done specifically to tear Ukrainians from the Russian Orthodox Church.
        1. Ivanovic
          Ivanovic 16 June 2013 13: 31 New
          -1
          Well, something average.
          Quote: Egoza
          it seems that in Ukrainian they are allowed to conduct all services

          and not like, but for sure.
          1. urich
            urich 16 June 2013 21: 56 New
            +2
            Confused, dear! There is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate, where they both served and are serving. And in Ukrainian, the service is in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kiev Patriarchate. A rather incomprehensible education, because no one, except for people coming there, is recognized. Not a single official structure of a single confession recognized the Kiev patriarchy, despite the pressure of officials (for example, Yushchenko). Which gives reason to believe that in Ukraine the mess is not only in politics and economics, but even in deeper issues. I mean religion.
            1. Ivanovic
              Ivanovic 17 June 2013 02: 02 New
              -1
              So what am I confused about, dear. I wrote that the Uniates, and this is the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, are serving in the Ukrainian language. And you are for the Ukrainian Moscow and Kiev Patriarchates. In my opinion, you are confused and, moreover, cunning
              Quote: urich
              the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate, there both served and are serving

              is that reckoning on a fool. So on some they lead, if in Old Slavonic, then why in Russia in Russian.
              1. sergo0000
                sergo0000 17 June 2013 10: 47 New
                +1
                In Russia, the church service also runs in Old Slavonic. The exception is when the priest preaches with the laity from the pulpit in a language that is accessible in the area. And in the states and in China, exactly the same!
    2. vBR
      vBR 17 June 2013 02: 26 New
      +2
      So after 40 years, they lived completely nothing. Yes, and it is real, and even more so sincerely believing in power interest. Here they are not even them, but banderlogs will resist more. But why should their position determine the fate of our land and our people, who are also in Western Ukraine? It turns out how the enemies dug in somewhere and shouted louder, so drop it? So they will dig everywhere. And wherever you have your own, you need to build social strength and help them
  18. Ivanovic
    Ivanovic 16 June 2013 10: 57 New
    -2
    Quote: uizik
    can not combine Catholicism, Uniate and Orthodoxy
    but why connect, if so, black and white people also need to connect and bring something average. Direct obscurantism, because it is possible to coexist peacefully, which the civilized world does. All races and all faiths will survive. Personally, I’m Orthodox, and I have a Catholic wife and no problems. On the contrary, my friends envy me, because I have two Easter a year, two Christmas ...
    1. alex13-61
      alex13-61 16 June 2013 11: 16 New
      +7
      Quote: Ivanovic
      but why connect it, if so then both black and white people also need to connect and display something average.

      so I say: why in the Crimea Ukrainization.
      1. Ivanovic
        Ivanovic 16 June 2013 11: 51 New
        -2
        in the town of elder, and in Kiev uncle
    2. Ivanovic
      Ivanovic 16 June 2013 14: 21 New
      -1
      And I’m just wondering what this statement is for, where I propose that all faiths, races should live peacefully, some are minus. And if I wrote, let's go to war against Catholics, Muslims, Arabs, Negroes, then it turns out that they’d advantage.
  19. Mhpv
    Mhpv 16 June 2013 11: 14 New
    +2
    "Nature is how you are deceiving," said the hedgehog, crawling with a cactus.
    So the nature of mankind has changed, all sorts of minorities began to control the majority. A handful of Natsiks did not unsuccessfully drive a wedge between the majority of the people of Ukraine in all planes and directions, so until Ukraine decides nationalist problems, it cannot decide on the direction
    1. alleksSalut4507
      alleksSalut4507 April 25 2014 22: 48 New
      0
      Natsik well fed and fed.
  20. aleshka1987
    aleshka1987 16 June 2013 11: 28 New
    11
    The article aims to sow discord and prevent unification. I myself am from western Ukraine, my 2 grandfathers served in the Red Army, and many remember very well who the UPA and SS Galichina were! There are many of our people here and it is worth fighting for the region! Natsik is simply very PR and untwisted, very well financed ... But believe me, adequate smart people are also enough.
    1. Egoza
      Egoza 16 June 2013 12: 23 New
      +2
      Quote: aleshka1987
      There are many of our people here and it is worth fighting for the region! Natsik is simply very PR and untwisted, very well financed ... But believe me, adequate smart people are also enough.

      Correctly! +++++ 100!
    2. byrnas
      16 June 2013 14: 13 New
      +1
      The article is about whether the then Soviet leadership was mistaken in joining the Ukrainian SSR in 1939, Galicia, and sowing discord here?
      1. vBR
        vBR 17 June 2013 02: 36 New
        0
        She does not sow discord, but simply stupid, at least the name. Was it worth Ivan the Terrible to wage the Livonian War, was it worth it to gnaw the West Russian lands from the Principality of Lithuania, was it worth it ... you can literally 95% of the territory of the Russian empire or the USSR. I won’t understand where such questions will increase from such questions, and most importantly what is the use (or rather harm) of this. It would be much more fruitful to study the processes and factors of the formation of self-identifications and what they did wrong, which helped us to turn our neck so easily. And all (except Belarusians) are in a concussion
    3. vBR
      vBR 17 June 2013 02: 28 New
      0
      I just wrote above here, almost the same thing!
    4. Mikhail
      Mikhail 5 July 2013 00: 48 New
      -1
      You are right three times. Such articles here do the same thing as oral and written statements by modern admirers of Bandera, Shukhevych and other holuyev Germany.
      Some describe the horrors of the M-o-s-a-a-l-yoke yoke and the centuries-old dreams of Moscow to enslave the freedom-loving people, while others insist that the Galicians have no relation to the Russian world: they say, the whole spoiled mother. Both those and others commit treason.
      Gentlemen who do not love Galicia, it is necessary to understand that, by offering to tear Galicia, they want to betray the entire population of the three regions, collectively punish him for the crime of individuals.
      We need to heal our wounds and not offer any amputations.
  21. cartridge
    cartridge 16 June 2013 11: 35 New
    +2
    Today Russia does not need to pay attention to the problems of Western Ukraine. These problems were inherited by the already non-stock Ukraine. so let her deal with them herself. We have enough of our own problems. In Ukraine, it is necessary to create and support those forces that favor unification with Russia. If for some reason this is impossible, then let Ukraine survive by itself as it can.
    In such a situation, it will be possible and necessary to concentrate on the return of Crimea, using legal contradictions and ambiguities, which are enough on the Crimean issue.
    In the event of deterioration of relations, military methods are also possible to resolve the issue of ensuring the security of Russia and in the south-western (Ukrainian) direction.
    1. vBR
      vBR 17 June 2013 02: 41 New
      +3
      In general, Ukraine is one of the key fragments of the country. So just in case. To support ours (it doesn’t have to be a complete unification at once) - I agree, but this is impossible only because such forces did not take shape in the Russian Federation itself, especially those who know how to do this.
      Well, the rest is a brawl almost according to Brzezinski, he really wanted this option smile
  22. dropout
    dropout 16 June 2013 11: 35 New
    +3
    A federal device must be introduced in Ukraine; otherwise, appendicitis will have to be removed.
    1. Ivanovic
      Ivanovic 16 June 2013 11: 53 New
      -6
      I wanted to answer, but I looked who wrote and the desire was gone
    2. biglow
      biglow 16 June 2013 12: 57 New
      +2
      Quote: dropout
      A federal device must be introduced in Ukraine; otherwise, appendicitis will have to be removed.

      you are right if this is not done then it will be much worse
      1. Ivanovic
        Ivanovic 16 June 2013 13: 39 New
        -2
        Yeah, you still need to introduce the United States instead of the states-republics with their advice and bureaucracy.
        Quote: biglow
        then it will be much worse
  23. Nevsky
    Nevsky 16 June 2013 11: 39 New
    +3
    Guys, our mother rewrote our story, specifically, which UPA, we lost more, reviewed the cycle of 20 episodes, at first there was Hochma, then shock, and sadness:

    Russian-Horde Impreya, recommended for viewing, even from a position of skeptics:

    1. Klin klinovv
      Klin klinovv 16 June 2013 13: 07 New
      0
      yes well done started to get out of this obscurantism
    2. Alexander 1958
      Alexander 1958 16 June 2013 17: 51 New
      +2
      The author falls into something, to put it mildly, not adequacy. And I thought it was only in Ukraine that some could seriously say that homo sapiens originated in Ukraine, Jesus Christ is our countryman, etc. It turns out that this is also possible in Russia ... Alexander 1958
  24. Abakanets
    Abakanets 16 June 2013 12: 33 New
    0
    Oh, Galicia, it’s Russian lands torn back in the days of the Mongol-Tatar yoke. However, the Russian princes, who came under Lithuanian rule, were among the first to respond to the cry of Dmitry Donskoy, and brought troops to defend Russian cities. In western Ukraine, what has died in Russia has survived. Many beautiful churches, language (Ukrainian is considered the closest to Old Slavonic). I note that in the West there is no particular apathy for Russians, but they hate everything Soviet, because the Soviets decently shamed them after the accession of these lands.
    1. Klin klinovv
      Klin klinovv 16 June 2013 12: 59 New
      0
      HERE is he who was missing in this chain of our ancient history. What is the Tatar-Mongol yoke?
      those whose eyes are slanting came from great-grandmothers, and this was your only proof of the existence of reality, which is discussed above.
      this nonsense about t / m yoke at home for borsch please
      1. Abakanets
        Abakanets 16 June 2013 13: 18 New
        -1
        My eyes are normal, because in my blood there are no Asian impurities. And the existence of the yoke is proved by the remains found on the ashes in the area of ​​Old Ryazan.
    2. alex13-61
      alex13-61 16 June 2013 13: 10 New
      +1
      Quote: Abakanets
      Ukrainian is considered closest to Old Slavonic

      The closest, nevertheless, is considered Belarusian ...
      1. Abakanets
        Abakanets 16 June 2013 13: 16 New
        -3
        There are too many borrowings from Lithuanian.
      2. Mikhail
        Mikhail 5 July 2013 00: 52 New
        -1
        Do you speak Belarusian?
        Most closely related to Old Slavonic is the Russian literary language: it is abundant in Old Slavism, which many do not realize.
  25. pinecone
    pinecone 16 June 2013 12: 34 New
    +1
    Quote: Valery-SPB
    Until 1917, part of Poland with Warsaw and with Western Galicia as part of the Russian Empire, the East - at Austria-Hungary. Poland is the fruit of the decisions of the Allied victors in 1918.


    Wrong. All Galicia, both Eastern and Western, were part of the Austrian (from 1868 Austro-Hungarian) Empire.

    To the author. The title is not entirely correct. In September 1939 during the liberation campaign of the Red Army, the term "Western Ukraine" in one fell swoop designated as the territory included before 1917. into the Russian Empire, but lost after the Soviet-Polish war under the Riga Treaty of 1921, and those that never belonged to it.
    It follows that the essence of the problem lies in the advisability of joining not all of "Western Ukraine", but only a part of it, that is, East Galician lands, the population of which in their mass was extremely hostile to any form of Russian power, regardless of whether she is royal, or Soviet.
    At the talks of the Polish government delegation with Stalin on August 3, 1944. They discussed the possibility of returning Poland to Lviv with part of Eastern Galicia, while there was no question of territories inherited by the Poles under the Riga Treaty of 1921.



    In the 1st World War, Lviv was not a Russian city for four years, as it was taken by Russian troops in early September 1914. and left in June 1915.
  26. biglow
    biglow 16 June 2013 12: 54 New
    +3
    Quote: Ivanovic
    Quote: uizik
    can not combine Catholicism, Uniate and Orthodoxy
    but why connect, if so, black and white people also need to connect and bring something average. Direct obscurantism, because it is possible to coexist peacefully, which the civilized world does. All races and all faiths will survive. Personally, I’m Orthodox, and I have a Catholic wife and no problems. On the contrary, my friends envy me, because I have two Easter a year, two Christmas ...

    Orthodoxy and Catholicism are not just two branches of Christianity, they are two different types of worldview, and what is suitable for the family is not always suitable for the state, especially for Ukraine where Orthodoxy has special roots.
    1. Ivanovic
      Ivanovic 16 June 2013 13: 44 New
      -1
      Quote: biglow
      these are not just two branches of Christianity, they are two different types of worldview

      he invented it or who told it, because every day I communicate with a representative of Catholicism, believe everything is the same. Yes, it depends more on the person, not the Orthodox you or the Catholic. All this division is brought from outside, what to share.
  27. My address
    My address 16 June 2013 12: 55 New
    +5
    Galicians, as the most-most, separated in the separatist. A year later, take stock of Squares.
  28. mithridate
    mithridate 16 June 2013 13: 16 New
    +4
    not all people from western Ukraine against Russia, as well as not all Crimean Tatars were collaborators
  29. Nu daaaa ...
    Nu daaaa ... 16 June 2013 13: 25 New
    +2
    Good article. Some Moscow ... ki about the "social revolution in 1940." Depending on the point of view, there was either a return of ancestral lands (from Russia) or occupation (from the watchmen of the Republic of Estonia).

    ..At first glance it seemed that historical justice had triumphed and the successor of the Russian Empire - USSR returned to its control their original lands.
    Yes, primordial, but if we keep in mind the territories of the Baltic states, Western Belarus and parts of eastern Poland ...


    And on Poland, no “fraternal help to the Polish people”, but a joint and earlier agreed military attack ...

    ... Immediately after the defeat of Poland by the Germans, mechanized convoys of the Red Army troops rushed to meet them from the east, the main thing then was to get ahead of the Germans and to reach contractual boundaries in time.
    1. Ivanovic
      Ivanovic 16 June 2013 14: 07 New
      +2
      “the main thing then was to get ahead of the Germans and reach the agreed borders on time ...” - yes, insanity is complete. Why get ahead, if the boundaries are agreed.
      1. Nu daaaa ...
        Nu daaaa ... 16 June 2013 14: 15 New
        0
        It goes without saying that the first to be, or else the agreement may not be respected. Although, in principle, respected. And where they were too far away, the place was all the same to the Soviet troops freed and retreated.
      2. Alexander 1958
        Alexander 1958 16 June 2013 16: 57 New
        +5
        Good afternoon! No, not insanity, but a necessity. There is a telegram from Ribbentrop to Molotov or Stalin, I do not remember exactly, with a warning that if the USSR does not hurry to occupy the agreed areas, then self-proclaimed states may appear.
        1. Nu daaaa ...
          Nu daaaa ... 16 June 2013 17: 57 New
          -1
          Nee, rebjata, kak že tak ... jesli po etoi tropinke dalše, to poluchaetsa, chto Germania i SSSR vmeste vtaruju mirovuju natšili ..
          1. Max otto
            Max otto 17 June 2013 00: 55 New
            +2
            I have already written to you once - don’t read books, don’t teach history, comment on the results ... Yes, just a brilliant idea! Or maybe the Second World War began a little earlier, when the Poles shared the Czech Republic with the fascists, eh? After all, Poland snatched a piece of the Czech Republic, didn’t they know? Or maybe you still read who surrendered the Czech Republic to the Germans?
            1. Nu daaaa ...
              Nu daaaa ... 17 June 2013 01: 53 New
              0
              Or maybe the Second World War began a little earlier ...


              For the gifted - World War II -1 September 1939 - September 2, 1945

              1. Max otto
                Max otto 17 June 2013 12: 06 New
                0
                ABOUT! After all, you can, the brain is still there, then you will already find materials about the unleashing of WMO, without bad ideas.
  30. gura
    gura 16 June 2013 13: 29 New
    +4
    From Minsk. Dear Slavic Brothers. Leave, for a while, this Galicia. Because the national “brother-in-law goes” there for a very short time, by historical standards. Thank God that this Slavic cauldron did not explode, as in the Balkans! 20 years have passed since those wars. And everything slowly calms down. Both Bosnia and Serbs live quietly in Bosnia and Herzegovina. But, mutually, they shed rivers of blood for independence from each other. Economy will put everything in its place. There will be many rich tourists from Russia - in Galicia, from the cradle they will, without coercion, learn Russian. The main thing - do not comb "Honduras!"
  31. Avenger711
    Avenger711 16 June 2013 13: 31 New
    +3
    He started up arrests, tanks, and the plugging of all kinds of "independent" cultures quickly help against swine. As for Galicia, the Russians in spirit, of course, either left the Russian army in the WWI or went to the camps for which Austria was now and we have every right to wipe them off the face of the earth. But Galicism, in principle, cannot but pretend to something there in Little Russia and New Russia, because it was created for this purpose to convince x_o_kh_l_o_v that they were not Russian, but they exported all the grease.

    In the 1st World War, Lviv was not a Russian city for four years, as it was taken by Russian troops in early September 1914. and left in June 1915.


    Churchill Stalin pointed out that Lviv was never a Russian city. I don’t know if this is the real answer, or a half-joke, but Stalin allegedly replied: "But Warsaw was."
  32. biglow
    biglow 16 June 2013 13: 35 New
    +2
    Quote: Mithridates
    not all people from western Ukraine against Russia, as well as not all Crimean Tatars were collaborators

    maybe so, only how to separate the flies from cutlets?
  33. atos_kin
    atos_kin 16 June 2013 13: 53 New
    +4
    JV Stalin was not mistaken in matters of building and strengthening the USSR. It is a pity that he trusted too much the Khrushchev and the like.
    1. Skifo
      Skifo 16 June 2013 14: 22 New
      +1
      +100! I completely agree
  34. pensioner
    pensioner 16 June 2013 13: 54 New
    +3
    Quote: Nu daaaa ...
    joint and earlier agreed military attack ...

    Write already at home, otherwise I already have a dog laughing. And I haven’t shown it yet ...
    1. Nu daaaa ...
      Nu daaaa ... 16 June 2013 14: 06 New
      -4
      So, how about english? Does your dog speaks a foreign language? Eller tala det svenska språket? Papegojan kan hantera?
      1. pensioner
        pensioner 16 June 2013 14: 49 New
        +2
        That's how I like you more !! True, I am aglitsky - no matter how, but you do not pay attention. go on.
      2. Egoza
        Egoza 16 June 2013 15: 30 New
        +8
        Quote: Nu daaaa ...
        Does your dog speaks a foreign language

        Better not write aglitsky. And then mistakes stuck as in Russian.
        1. pensioner
          pensioner 16 June 2013 16: 31 New
          +2
          On which side do not go up to him around half-educated (nonsense .. what fits him well the filter does not pass), it turns out! Thanks Helen, brought him to clean water! And what is his native language then? Chukhonsky or what? Well, I would mumble on it. Our letters are not rotten ...
      3. MG42
        MG42 17 June 2013 03: 05 New
        +3
        Quote: Nu daaaa ...
        So, how about english? Does your dog speaks a foreign language?

        I understand this part of the post in English
        Quote: Nu daaaa ...
        Eller tala det svenska språket? Papegojan kan hantera?

        but I didn’t understand this part of the post, because I don’t know Swedish and the translator doesn’t translate this = apparently something is wrong with you in Swedish = in one post in 2 foreign languages ​​for this site, so get a minus.
  35. Skifo
    Skifo 16 June 2013 14: 19 New
    +3
    View from the Volga.
    The feeling that the West (Europe, America) is hanging all the negative and they are inciting people ... Well, Galicia cannot exist autonomously! Residents of the memory in the 90s earned a living on construction sites and other fields in the Volga region, and possibly in other regions of Russia. Perhaps this is happening now. I was also in Transcarpathia .. So there are no men for 10 months at home, everyone goes to work in the former USSR. Would they really travel to other regions apart from their families and live in terrible conditions if everything was fine at home!
    1. alex13-61
      alex13-61 16 June 2013 16: 43 New
      +3
      Quote: Skifo
      Residents of the memory in the 90s earned a living on construction sites and other fields in the Volga region, and possibly in other regions of Russia. Perhaps this is happening now.

      They wander to the Crimea to earn money, now too, as in the 90s. Mostly at construction sites ... although I also met women at seasonal jobs (boarding houses, recreation centers).
  36. biglow
    biglow 16 June 2013 14: 24 New
    +1
    Quote: Ivanovic
    Quote: biglow
    these are not just two branches of Christianity, they are two different types of worldview

    he invented it or who told it, because every day I communicate with a representative of Catholicism, believe everything is the same. Yes, it depends more on the person, not the Orthodox you or the Catholic. All this division is brought from outside, what to share.

    you confuse people and the tenets of faith., read something and then you will not make such unfounded statements.
  37. revera92
    revera92 16 June 2013 14: 42 New
    -3
    Avenger711 Great Russian chauvinist.
    1. Avenger711
      Avenger711 16 June 2013 15: 28 New
      +1
      What does the Great Russian chauvinist mean? I actually do not refuse Russianness neither x_o_kh_l_a_m nor b_u_l_y_b_a_sh_a_m. I am for Russia and the Russian people, and not against someone like the Galician Nazis.
  38. Sukharev
    Sukharev 16 June 2013 14: 52 New
    +1
    Eastern Ukraine feeds loafers from its western territories. And those, in turn, are engaged in demagogy and distortion of history. In fact, they muddy the past of their eastern compatriots. At the same time, they think that they are carrying a heavy civilizational burden. I hope a little time will pass and Lviv will be given a kick under the tail and sent it back to Poland. And Ukraine will be able to develop its industry and culture normally, relying on history, rather than false, momentary foreign values.
    1. Ivanovic
      Ivanovic 16 June 2013 15: 07 New
      -2
      Quote: Sukharev
      Eastern Ukraine feeds loafers
      I heard a lot of fairy tales. For your information, it is better not to mine coal in Donbas, but to buy in Russia, Poland, because this occupation is very unprofitable, but not where to put miners. And all the mines are subsidized by Kiev. And so, nobody feeds anyone.
      1. Sukharev
        Sukharev 16 June 2013 16: 27 New
        +2
        And this, in your opinion, justifies the distortion of history? Why the hell is this necessary? To hell with all this propaganda to arrange? I am not against the self-identification of Ukraine. Let everything go as it should. The future will judge. I sincerely wish only good, development and good partnerships ... And as for industry ... Coal is in your opinion the whole industry? Almost all heavy industry is concentrated in the eastern part. Metallurgy is all in the eastern part. Coal, despite the unprofitability in your words (although this needs to be checked) is 90% in the eastern part.
      2. nnz226
        nnz226 16 June 2013 16: 30 New
        +4
        Yeah, especially you look at the law on the state budget that is independent, where the direct sovereign movement lists the subsidized regions of the most independent, and surprisingly, for some reason they are all located in Galicia !!!
        1. Sukharev
          Sukharev 16 June 2013 16: 50 New
          -1
          Here =) For the good of Ukraine. Give Galicia to Poland. Although not ... Better to sell !!! And with this money to build factories and modernize the industry. One pluses! And Galicia will finally be back in “Europe” and people will earn money from workers.
          1. Ivanovic
            Ivanovic 17 June 2013 02: 11 New
            -1
            Quote: Sukharev
            For the good of Ukraine. Give Galicia to Poland
            so it’s not good for Ukraine, but for Russia. You need to call a spade a spade.
          2. Mikhail
            Mikhail 5 July 2013 00: 58 New
            -1
            Do not even dare to think about it! You can not give the enemy Russian land!
        2. Ivanovic
          Ivanovic 17 June 2013 02: 09 New
          -1
          Firstly, only one region is located in Galicia, the Lviv region, and so what is it subsidized in?
      3. biglow
        biglow 16 June 2013 17: 34 New
        0
        Quote: Ivanovic
        Quote: Sukharev
        Eastern Ukraine feeds loafers
        I heard a lot of fairy tales. For your information, it is better not to mine coal in Donbas, but to buy in Russia, Poland, because this occupation is very unprofitable, but not where to put miners. And all the mines are subsidized by Kiev. And so, nobody feeds anyone.

        when such tips started to slam, they began to buy potatoes in Poland and agriculture said so far, and yours Galicians are now without exception on earnings anywhere
  39. Anti com
    Anti com 16 June 2013 15: 52 New
    0
    Both in the article and in individual comments, the influence of Western Ukraine (Galicia) on the rest of Ukraine is “slightly” exaggerated. Galychians skillfully use the ideology to split our already underdeveloped state ... But otherwise, Ukraine has more than 20 years successfully rule anyone, but not Galicia. All kinds of Denets, Dnepropetrovsk and other Russified foreigners from time to time scare people with Galician fascism, and while everyone is groaning and gasping, they mercilessly pump out the last liquid of this country ... But there's nothing to be done. Such is our, goyim, fate.
  40. knn54
    knn54 16 June 2013 15: 53 New
    0
    It’s necessary to join / conquer, but in 1944 until this moment the UPA and AK would have completely killed each other, and the former would have been compromised by cooperation with the Nazis. The population who received after the Poles Germans IMMEDIATELY would not have supported the UPA as much as after 1939, when the local the bourgeoisie and the clergy, who lost their power and capital with the advent of the Reds, became implacable enemies of the USSR. And Ukrainian nationalism received a “second wind”, taking even those whose interests it did not meet at all. It also applies to local fields am, who went underground to fight the "Soviet occupation."
    It is interesting, but in the East and Southeast, some also condemn the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. But only in one point - the accession of the western regions to Ukraine. A sad but eloquent fact.
    PS M.B. Stalin was impressed by "pan-Slavism", but he never brought us anything good. Take the same Czechs and Bulgarians. And the Poles seem to have forgotten that they are Slavs.
    1. Avenger711
      Avenger711 16 June 2013 16: 30 New
      +2
      No, the Slavs can only be Orthodox. Bulgaria is really not a foreign country and pro-Russian sentiments have always been strong there, but the Czech Republic itself in general.
      1. TRAFFIC
        TRAFFIC 16 June 2013 17: 35 New
        +3
        Can Slavs be atheists? what
        1. Ivanovic
          Ivanovic 17 June 2013 02: 18 New
          -2
          This is up to ... Putin.
      2. Ivanovic
        Ivanovic 17 June 2013 02: 16 New
        -1
        Quote: Avenger711
        Bulgaria is really not a foreign country and pro-Russian sentiments have always been strong there
        who told you, actually you got better
        Quote: Avenger711
        always were

        I remember, on the way to Turkey, driving through Romania, I dreamed that now it would be Bulgaria, the Slav brothers, it will be easier. Unless the mess is the same, but you can’t understand the words, all the Bulgarians look like Turks.
  41. 128mgb
    128mgb 16 June 2013 16: 13 New
    0
    Guys, look at the First in Space, EEEh, what did we do without them !!!! (drunk)
  42. nnz226
    nnz226 16 June 2013 16: 28 New
    +4
    The numbers do not add up: it is recorded that the BATTLE LOSSES of the USSR (!!!) amount to about 8,7 million people. And the article says that only residents of Ukraine at the fronts fell 8,5 million. (???) Does not add up !!! Or is it a rehash on the topic: "heaped up with corpses" ?! 8,5 million inhabitants of Ukraine + 20 million inhabitants of Russia + 5 million inhabitants of other then Soviet republics and they’re getting “terrible losses” at the front because (further to taste: commissars, stupid generals, bloodthirsty SMERS who spend millions of cartridges on their own, detachments and etc., etc.) It is necessary to be more protective!
  43. Sashko07
    Sashko07 16 June 2013 18: 06 New
    +2
    Quote: retired
    Yes-ah ... Now try to look for these types of sources. Walk around the mountain villages, ask around ... But how is it: against the Germans and against the Reds? But they didn’t .... they were: both with the Wehrmacht and the Red Army? I have long been saying that it is necessary to introduce new titles: "candidate (doctor) of Ukrainian historical sciences."

    Dear, why doesn’t anyone remember the whole divisions, regiments, and even divisions of Russian traitors created from prisoners of war, namely Russians, why is Russian propaganda silent about these divisions?
    Beautifully distort history probably sitting under a computer?
  44. Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 16 June 2013 18: 15 New
    +5
    <<< How could it happen that the region, which recently became part of the country, is meant by historical standards recently, the region is mostly mentally alien to a large part of the population of Ukraine. And suddenly, this very region - the so-called Polish Galicia, has now turned out to be the main historical and national legislator for all of modern Ukraine? >>>
    It's all about the HEAD! The Ukrainian ruling elite understands that the ideology of fraternizing with Russia can lead, NATURALLY, to unification with it, which threatens it with the loss of omnipotence (and, perhaps, power in general) and dominance in the business and economy of Ukraine. And this is NOT in her plans! Therefore, she chose the idea of ​​opposing Ukraine to Russia as a national idea, opposing everything to the smallest detail with all her might, trying to prove that there wasn’t any kindred relationship between Ukrainians and Russians, reaching frantic RUSSOPHOBIA! Hence the revision of views on history, its rewriting for the sake of the Westerners, who just carry out this idea and are, in a way, an ideological pillar of the Ukrainian elite! Plus, Russophobia is well appreciated in the West and you can EARN well on it!
    1. alleksSalut4507
      alleksSalut4507 April 27 2014 06: 23 New
      0
      for this, a long time ago those who invented the First World War began to pay money. To be surprised, so many people are fed and laid in stacks, and they do not ask anyone.
  45. The comment was deleted.
  46. knn54
    knn54 16 June 2013 19: 26 New
    +1
    -Goldmitro:
    - It's all about the HEAD!
    And in the memory. When Hitler came to power, one of the FIRST ones who concurred in the Nazi victory came to concentration camps.
    -... turned out to be the main historical and national legislator for the whole of modern Ukraine? >>>
    Similarly, if the Celtic-British Cornwall became the standard for Britain, replacing everything
    English
    -Plus to this ... deposits in Western banks, real estate and student children at prestigious universities.
  47. Stock captain
    Stock captain 16 June 2013 19: 33 New
    +5
    No need to delve into the historical jungle. They want Bandera’s independence to get it, only the border with a thorn must be kept so that neither Farion nor Tugnybik and their nose are pushed to the east. Let them live on their own money, and not at the expense of donor areas. Honestly, do not give a damn so much that they will do there just to not hear all this b !!!
  48. papas-57
    papas-57 16 June 2013 19: 44 New
    +1
    But the most terrifying was the loss of life. 8,5 million inhabitants of the republic died on the fronts. The total number of civilians killed was 5,3 million (January 1941-May 1945), 2,3 million were forcibly taken to Germany.
    Something I did not understand that with numbers. It turns out that during the war only residents of Ukraine fought, and the rest of the nations forged a victory in the rear. And something many of them died at the front, if according to the latest data on the fronts of the Great Patriotic War, 6-7 (now I do not remember exactly) millions of military personnel died
  49. sigizmund472
    sigizmund472 16 June 2013 19: 46 New
    +3
    You can rewrite history at any time and please anyone, you can carefully lick the loin parts of the body to any puppeteer, but you CANNOT forget that every sixth resident of Ukraine died during the war, more than 250 Ukrainian villages were burned to the ground by German invaders. These things should never be forgotten! Of the 15 fronts that operated during the Great Patriotic War, more than half of them were led by generals and marshals - Ukrainians. 2,5 million Ukrainian soldiers were awarded orders and medals, over 2 million people were awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. Of 115 Heroes twice, 32 are Ukrainians or a native of Ukraine. Of the four Heroes, simultaneously full holders of the Order of Glory - 2 Ukrainians. THEM. Kozhedub - three times Hero of the Soviet Union. So, gentlemen, zapadentsy, and this must be deleted and forgotten?
    1. alleksSalut4507
      alleksSalut4507 April 27 2014 06: 50 New
      0
      Zapadentsev doesn’t need this anymore. Every sixth resident of Ukraine died in the Second World War? Add those who were killed by the Bandera after the war. And how much money was invested by the frigging interested dissatisfied with the results of two world wars. One of the bankers invested up to 1904 million only in the revolution of 1905-200. dollars of tech, then. and his children will forget this ruin? and how many of these beggars now? grandchildren of "laym Schmidt" are resting.
  50. waisson
    waisson 16 June 2013 19: 58 New
    0
    why discuss something that is not ours anymore, it makes no sense to muddle people. How come and go God forbid, with them!