Military Review

With or without Ukraine. Two armies and two military-industrial complexes cannot agree on mutually beneficial cooperation.

46
With or without Ukraine. Two armies and two military-industrial complexes cannot agree on mutually beneficial cooperation.At the end of the past and the beginning of this week, the heads of the military departments of Russia and Ukraine exchanged sharp statements. Both accused the other side of not wanting to develop mutually beneficial cooperation between the armed forces of the two countries. It was about specific projects and outstanding issues for many years.


It all started ... at an arms exhibition in Rio de Janeiro. It was there, answering the questions of the editor-in-chief of Independent Military Review, the Minister of Defense of Ukraine Pavel Lebedev made an unexpected statement: “We invited Russia to conduct an audit of the agreements on the Black Sea the fleet. By landfill, by berths and social aspects. We are ready to resolve all issues. But the impression is that Russia does not need this. ”

Such a sudden change of tonality in the dialogue, which was not even supposed during the February meeting of the heads of military departments of both countries, has now led to detailed explanations by Russian Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov. He noted that the Russian Ministry of Defense proceeds from the strategic, partnership nature of relations with Ukrainian colleagues. It was in this vein that Moscow sought to build relations with its neighbors, including on “difficult” issues. "If the partners, in order to present their point of view, resort to public diplomacy using the media, then this may indicate a failure in our communication," stated Antonov.

The Russian Deputy Minister drew attention to the fact that during the deployment of the Russian Black Sea Fleet in the Crimea, certain changes took place in its locations and in the use of specific objects of its vital activity. It was necessary to recall the proposal of Russia, made more than two years ago, to take an inventory of all the objects involved, to prepare a draft agreement on the infrastructure of the Black Sea Fleet, which would regulate issues on real estate. “However, we did not receive a reply from Kiev. In this regard, without solving the main and fundamental issue, it is extremely difficult to make decisions on private projects. It was about this that the Russian Defense Minister spoke to Pavel Lebedev during the February meeting in Sevastopol, ”said Anatoly Antonov and stressed that the work on the inventory of the facilities of the Black Sea Fleet was carried out anyway. Its next stage was held in Crimea on April 10 – 11 under the leadership of the foreign affairs agencies of the two countries.

The essence of another issue raised by Pavel Lebedev also looks upside down. According to him, the Russian side does not fulfill the agreement with Ukraine on the development and mass production of the An-70 military transport aircraft. The Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation, Anatoly Antonov, commented on the accusation as follows: “They are surprised by the statement of the Minister of Defense of Ukraine ... I recall that the Russian Ministry of Defense has completely fulfilled its financial obligations. At the same time, there are delays in financing from Ukraine. The project is funded by Kiev only 45%. "

According to our information, at present the Ukrainian state-owned enterprise Antonov is conducting only preliminary flight tests of the aircraft. In Russia they say that, according to their results, they will be ready to begin conducting state joint flight tests.
Meanwhile, the Ukrainian media are replicating the recent statement by the director of the Center for Army Studies, Conversion and Disarmament, Valentin Badrak, that Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin lobbied the contract with the Russian Defense Ministry to supply X-NUMX Il-39 aircraft that would be used instead of the planned An-476. But An-70 is only being developed. He is not running the series. It requires significant funds for its fine-tuning. According to a number of experts, the entire leadership of the United Aircraft Building Company (UAC) has careful attention to An-70. However, the design of the aircraft in Moscow and Kiev, there are objective difficulties. Firstly, these are the problems of securing intellectual property on this aircraft. Secondly - payment for its further certification and development. It has been solved for several years, but the question of the electronic drawings of the aircraft has not yet been resolved. Thirdly, the Russian aviation industry fears that the An-70 project financed by Russia will “quietly float to China”. This has already happened with other developments of the Ukrainian Antonov Design Bureau, where Russia also participated. And therefore, in order to further develop the aircraft, we probably need new agreements on it. Whereas IL-70 is actually ready for serial production. A special program for its assembly has been developed, which allows the aircraft to be manufactured on-line in the 476 year. The question has already been resolved that the order of the X-NUMX Il-2014 aircraft will be released. Most of them will be produced really for the needs of the main customer - the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.

And yet this does not mean that military-technical cooperation between Russia and Ukraine is not developing. According to Anatoly Antonov, in the near future the parties will sign an intergovernmental agreement on the implementation of the MTC program.

“The program includes 255 areas of cooperation, and more than 100 Russian and more 60 Ukrainian enterprises are planned to participate in its implementation,” said Antonov. In addition, he noted, a significant number of Russian and Ukrainian enterprises annually participate in mutual deliveries of products under the agreement on production and scientific and technical cooperation and other agreements on specific areas of cooperation. Russia is trying to patiently unilaterally push forward the solution to a common problem, or simply solves the issue only for itself, without partners.
Originator:
http://nvo.ng.ru/forces/2013-04-19/2_red.html
46 comments
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  1. Ak 12
    Ak 12 April 23 2013 15: 36
    +5
    It has long been time to unite, and then their further path to NATO will not lead to anything
    1. ShturmKGB
      ShturmKGB April 23 2013 15: 44
      18
      Ukraine must first decide with whom to go, now there is no trust in Ukraine. Living by the principle of "giving to both yours and ours" will not work for long ...
      1. Nicholas C.
        Nicholas C. April 23 2013 16: 56
        +5
        Meanwhile, Ukrainian media is circulating a recent statement by Valentin Badrak, director of the Army, Conversion and Disarmament Research Center, that Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin has lobbied for a contract with the Russian Ministry of Defense for the supply of 39 Il-476 aircraft, which are supposed to be used instead of the planned An-70.

        “At the same time, Mr. Badrak, says that“ the North Atlantic Alliance wants Ukraine to have its own specialization. ”“ But this is also good. Firstly, our specialization is already ready - this is military transport aviation. And Ukraine could within NATO, making serious money by transferring contingents and weapons, "he said." Today's An-124 fleet, which is used for these purposes, is not enough. Therefore, Russian aircraft of the Volga Dnepr company are involved, which is unprofitable for either NATO or Ukraine. "
        censor.net.ua/news/43278/ekspert_quotrossii_nevygodno_poluchit_nebolshoe_koliche
        stvo_denejnyh_resursov_a_vzamen_usilit_boevuyu


        As long as something depends on such Badraks in Ukraine, we will not have a joint aircraft.
      2. bogdan
        bogdan April 23 2013 16: 57
        0
        ShturmKGB
        Ukraine must first decide with whom to go, now there is no trust in Ukraine. Living by the principle of "giving to both yours and ours" will not work for long ...

        I would say that it is necessary for Ukrainian politicians to decide, but they all represent the interests of oligarchic clans, and therefore they have long been "identified" - they do not need either the CU or the EU, they are quite satisfied with this in between, "multi-vector" - so it is most convenient to rob ...
        1. morpex
          morpex April 23 2013 21: 44
          0
          Quote: bogdan
          - they don’t need either the CU or the EU,

          And they don’t need a revision of the fleet! When it’s easier to jabber and rub around the mess ... And in my opinion both sides are in no hurry. They are sawing themselves quietly.
      3. wolk71
        wolk71 April 23 2013 18: 25
        +3
        In, and then in Moscow they sing one thing, but as soon as they leave for Europe, Russia is bad. Well, no, the lads decide who they are in front of and who to back.
        1. GSH-18
          GSH-18 April 23 2013 23: 30
          -3
          Quote: wolk71
          Well, no, lads decide who to whom and to whom back.

          And they can both back and forth! laughing *** proved by Ukrainian prostitutes *** laughing
          1. Kars
            Kars April 23 2013 23: 38
            -1
            Quote: GSH-18
            *** proved by Ukrainian prostitutes ***

            About the Russian type of modesty))))))))))))
            And how is it determined to whom by what - it turns out that both want to have? So maybe they let each other and we stand aside?
            1. GSH-18
              GSH-18 April 24 2013 00: 07
              +2
              Quote: Kars
              About the Russian type of modesty))))))))))))

              Well no. Just Ukrainian in the geyropa are leading! laughing
              Quote: Kars
              so maybe they let each other and we stand aside?

              Totally agree with you! drinks
              1. Kars
                Kars April 24 2013 00: 10
                0
                Quote: GSH-18
                Well no. Just Ukrainian in the geyropa are leading!

                Possess statistics? It’s strange in the geyrop and prostitutes or prostitutes lead
                Quote: GSH-18
                Totally agree with you!

                it turns out you want a closer acquaintance with the geyropa? Of course I am a man of wide views, but I won’t talk to you anymore, for once.
      4. dmitreach
        dmitreach April 23 2013 18: 52
        +2
        ShturmKGB
        Living by the principle of "giving to both yours and ours" will not work for long ...

        remembered:
        I love walks at dawn. - Immediately on two horses? Seats are not enough. ...
        (x / f Ordinary miracle)
        1. bogdan
          bogdan April 24 2013 02: 04
          +1
          Quote: dmitreach
          remembered:
          I love walks at dawn. - Immediately on two horses? Seats are not enough. ...
          (x / f Ordinary miracle)


          Wrong - x / f Formula of love.
          This is by no means reproached, so, correction wink
      5. forvard46
        forvard46 April 23 2013 21: 14
        0
        They will chase after two hares - they will not catch a single one!
      6. svp67
        svp67 25 May 2013 08: 42
        0
        ShturmKGB
        Ukraine must first decide with whom to go, now there is no trust in Ukraine. Living by the principle of "giving to both yours and ours" will not work for long ...

        First of all, she must learn to fully comply with her obligations ...
    2. GSH-18
      GSH-18 April 23 2013 23: 22
      0
      Quote: Ak 12
      It has long been time to unite, and then their further path to NATO will not lead to anything

      Again, Russia should save someone at its own expense without receiving anything in return? Excuse me, but I'm already sick of these sugary conversations about the need to save "fraternal" peoples through unification, again for our money. Yes, they do not want us, why are we imposing !!? Russia is a great power! And we must behave according to the status. Let them ask us, and we will think about whether to take it or not! If their leaders do not have enough brains, then this is the problem of Ukrainians, not ours. Let their geyropa come along, then we can understand who is hu! laughing
      1. Kaa
        Kaa April 23 2013 23: 47
        -2
        Quote: GSH-18
        Let them ask us, but we still think whether to take it or not!
        When, under President Clare Chumachenko, the husband of an American citizen, Ukraine was almost dragged into NATO, Russia, in the person of Putin, found an iron argument for Bush: “When it came to Ukraine, Putin flared up. Addressing Bush, he said:“ You understand, George that Ukraine is not even a state! What is Ukraine? Part of its territory is Eastern Europe, and part, and a significant one, was donated by us! "And here he very transparently hinted that if Ukraine is nevertheless admitted to NATO, this state will simply cease to exist. That is, in fact, he threatened that Russia could start rejection of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine ".
        : http://www.unian.net/news/245248-putin-tyi-je-ponimaesh-djordj-chto-ukraina-eto-

        daje-ne-gosudarstvo.html Why? And because, among other things, the flight time from the Kharkov air hub to Moscow, how many minutes is -15 or 20? Russia in return received "the calmness of our borders." you no one. "Without an elementary" run over "on the Ukrainian oligarchs who like to hang out like a g ... but in an ice hole between the EU and the CU, without a massive information attack on the Ukrainian man in the street, that he will die without the CU, it is naive to think that Ukraine itself" will ripen "and fall into the arms of Russia as a ripe fruit, for 70 years they have been waiting for the weather by the sea, Ukraine is more likely to fall somewhere like an overripe and rotten fruit. Who benefits from this? Only the USA and the West. The Russians here have already slowly begun to get used to the idea that they ... Russia does not need them, because even the Abkhazians and Ajarians were handed out passports from Russia to the right and to the left, and so the Rusks are not needed? that their "white-blue" throw, and Russia with them. But as soon as Pu pokes at the oligarchs (at least it happened to the Russians in most cases), the mood of society changes. So it turns out that Russia does not need a "Russian world" outside its borders, Belgorod is still Russia, and Kharkov - Solve your problems yourself. Inconsistency, if not "do not care". It is not clear somehow.
        1. GSH-18
          GSH-18 April 24 2013 00: 04
          0
          Quote from Kaa: "The Russians here have already slowly started to get used to the idea that they ... Russia does not need them, because even the Abkhazians and Ajarians were handed out passports from Russia to the right and to the left, and so the Rusks are not needed? We will survive, not the first time over the years. , but it turns out that their "white-blue" throw, and Russia with them.

          So it turns out that Russia does not need a "Russian world" outside its borders, Belgorod is still Russia, and Kharkov - decide your own. Inconsistency, if not "do not care". It is not clear somehow. "

          Why don’t you understand ?? Everything is clear as a white day - the situation has not changed in the last 20 years! All this nagging about the uselessness of Ukraine Russia (you just think about this phrase! lol ) It comes down to only one thing (which Ukraine has learned to do well in 20 years) to a specific dough out of our pockets, without a return! Russia does not throw its own (about Russian in Ukraine). The situation is played out in such a way as to present it in a bad light. All who wanted, have long been in Russia and with Russian passports.
          And yet, Russia does not need such a "Russian world" that hangs around the neck and drinks blood. It's like akin to "friends of Syria" negative
          1. Kaa
            Kaa April 24 2013 00: 20
            +1
            Quote: GSH-18
            to a specific dough suck from our pockets, no return

            What exactly did Kars, Egoza, Kaa "suck" out of you? You just hint, otherwise I don't know (I probably missed it) when and what I took from you, just like most of the Ukrainian colleagues on this site. We only need one thing from Russia - the feeling that she NEEDS us. If not, we are not "bloodsuckers" and not "migrant workers", we do not aspire to Geyropu, here, as I said, we are used to surviving ...
            Quote: GSH-18
            All who wanted, have long been in Russia and with Russian passports.
            And I have half of my relatives in Russia, from Moscow to Ulan-Ude, and I DON'T WISH to leave here like a coward, like a refugee, the South-East of Ukraine is the same Russia, only "temporarily occupied territory" and we are here as we can we will oppose “ukrainism” - “galicism” and we will do it either with Russia or without it. yes
            1. GSH-18
              GSH-18 April 24 2013 00: 43
              -1
              Dear Kaa (also Kars and Egoza). Naturally, I personally have no complaints about you and cannot be! There are claims to the perpetrators and accomplices of the situation when Russian hydrocarbons were used for the national economy of Ukraine absolutely free of charge (that is, for nothing), as well as for the enrichment of some Ukrainian people and their families and supporters. But the Russian Federation has spent a lot of PEOPLE (that is, mine) funds for their extraction, cleaning and processing and transportation. Which were not received by my parents in the form of pensions. Funds, the lack of which was compensated by the rise in prices for communal services and food. Funds that did not go to increase my salary. That is, all Russians, casually paid the buzz to the Ukrainian "aligarchs" out of their own pockets and kept the Ukrainian "economy" afloat. And what did the Russians get in return ???
              1. Kaa
                Kaa April 24 2013 01: 19
                +1
                Quote: GSH-18
                And what did the Russians get in return ???

                Offhand data from 2009: "Russia is one of the leading investors in Ukraine. Russian companies have penetrated almost all sectors of the Ukrainian economy. Communications and the chemical industry, consumer goods and the food industry, energy and the automotive industry, banking business. But, by and large, the neighbors can only boast of a monopoly position in mobile communications, oil refining and aluminum / alumina production, where the share of Russian business exceeds 80%. Today, the most widely represented in Ukraine are: NK Lukoil, Consortium Alfa Group, Basic Element and AFK Sistema.
                Alfa Group Consortium:
                · 67% of the shares of the oil refinery "LINOS" (Lisichansk refinery);
                · 76% of shares of Kyivinvestbank (renamed Alfa-Bank Ukraine);
                · Dniproenergo and a 10% stake in Centrenergo;
                · A controlling stake in Storm (which owns 40,1% of Kyivstar);
                · Media “New Channel” and “Our Radio”.
                NK "Lukoil":
                · Odessa Oil Refinery (which is one of the largest enterprises of this industry in Ukraine) and a network of gas stations (about 200);
                · A controlling stake in the Lukor petrochemical enterprise (Kalush, Ivano-Frankivsk region);
                · STB channel.
                RusAl Company:
                · Nikolaev Alumina Refinery (which now ranks second in the world in terms of production);
                · Dnieper Metallurgical Plant.
                Alliance Group:
                · Krymnefteprodukt and Khersonnefteprodukt companies;
                · Gas station network (about 180);
                · Stakhanov Carriage Works.
                The Ministry of Land Property of the Republic of Tatarstan (28,8%) and OAO Tatneft (8,6%):
                · Own stakes in Ukrtatnafta company (which owns the largest in Ukraine Kremenchug oil refinery) (taking into account shareholders close to the government of the Republic of Tatarstan, sometimes represented by offshore companies, about 56% of the refinery's shares are controlled).
                AvtoVAZ-invest:
                · 68% of the shares of Zaporizhzhya aluminum smelter;
                IARC Group:
                · Controlling stakes in six enterprises for the collection and processing of ferrous metals (Cherkassky, Kherson, Kharkov, Vinnitsa, Zhytomyr).
                AFK Sistema (MTS OJSC):
                · UMC (Ukrainian Mobile Communications, the largest mobile operator in Ukraine).
                The Russian Federation owns 223 objects throughout Ukraine, including 150 objects in the Crimea. Of these, 61 health resortshttp: //www.perspektivy.info/oykumena/krug/rossijsko-ukrainskije_otnoshe
                nija_mezhdu_politikoj_i_ekonomikoj_2009-05-21.htm
                As of January 1, 2012, 9 banks operated in Ukraine
                with Russian capital. This is Sberbank of Russia, Vneshtorgbank
                (VTB), Prominvestbank (since 2009, owned by the Russian Vnesh-
                economic bank "), Alfa Bank, Bank of Moscow (BM Bank), as well as
                smaller banks: Petrocommerce-Ukraine, Energobank, Russian
                standard ”and Trust Bank. According to the Association of Ukrainian
                banks (AUB) 9 Russian banks own approximately 15,5% of the active
                World Bank of the Ukrainian banking system (and this percentage is constantly growing),
                16,3% of the total loan and investment portfolio, about 10% of the deposit
                of individuals and about 16% of legal entities. Their joint capital
                accounts for approximately 14,5% of the total capital of Ukrainian banks.
                This is not so much, but the largest
                Russian banks that can provide at any time in their
                disposal of virtually unlimited resources1http: //inecon.org/docs/Kheifets_Vestnik_2012_4.pdf
                In my opinion, not a little.
                .
  2. Anton Russian
    Anton Russian April 23 2013 15: 39
    +5
    Sooner or later we will agree, it is inevitable !!! We have too much in common and dear.
    1. svp67
      svp67 April 23 2013 15: 44
      +4
      Quote: Anton Russian
      Sooner or later we will agree, it is inevitable !!!

      It would be better to do it earlier, but it seems like we work together, we work, but how to "collect fruits" - bang, we will quarrel and others are using our developments ... But for this all the money is paid, ours is with you.
      1. GSH-18
        GSH-18 April 23 2013 23: 47
        0
        Quote: svp67
        but how to "collect fruits" - bang, we will quarrel and others are using our developments ... But for this all the money is paid, ours is with you.

        Ha! So it will be so! Everyone wants to fuck something from Russia. And it’s time for us to understand long ago — the time of the Union republics has sunk into oblivion forever. Now only mutually beneficial, but better purely (for you and me) beneficial relationships! The better we live, the stronger and more attractive Russia will be. Russia itself should choose friends from a large number of countries that want to, and not humiliate itself by trusting in past relations, humiliating repeatedly holding out its hand, in the hope that some kind of Ukraine will finally say hello! am
    2. Nesvet Nezar
      Nesvet Nezar April 23 2013 16: 52
      +4
      You’ll talk about common and native talk with 20-25 year old residents of Ukraine .... The Caucasus will become dearer after these conversations ((((there is a scorched field in the mind.
      1. GSH-18
        GSH-18 April 24 2013 00: 28
        -3
        Quote: Nesvet Nezarya
        You’ll talk about common and native talk with 20-25 year old residents of Ukraine .... The Caucasus will become dearer after these conversations ((((there is a scorched field in the mind.

        And here are sound statements. Yes. Own politicians pretty much scoffed at the consciousness of the new Ukrainian generation through the Ukrainian Ministry of Education! Their heroes are fascist henchmen and the like trash. On the globe of Ukraine there are several more second-rate and third-rate countries, among which we are. So that. Do not rush to call brothers, guided by the impulse of the Russian soul ...
    3. Rustiger
      Rustiger April 23 2013 17: 46
      10
      Quote: Anton Russian
      We have too much in common and dear.


      "... according to my inner conviction, the most complete and insurmountable - Russia will never have and never had such haters, envious people, slanderers and even obvious enemies, like all these Slavic tribes, as soon as Russia liberates them, and Europe agrees to recognize them released!

      And do not mind me, do not dispute, do not shout at me that I am exaggerating and that I am a hater of the Slavs! On the contrary, I love the Slavs very much, but I won’t defend myself either, because I know that everything will come true exactly like I say, and not because of the low, ungrateful, as if, character of the Slavs - they have a character in this sense, like everyone else, namely because such things in the world cannot happen otherwise.

      After their release, they will begin their new life, I repeat, precisely by asking themselves to be given the pledge and protection of their freedom from Europe, England and Germany, and even Russia will be in a concert of European powers, but they will protection from Russia and will do it.

      They will certainly begin by saying that within themselves, if not directly out loud, they declare themselves and convince themselves that they are not obliged to Russia with the slightest gratitude, on the contrary, that they hardly escaped Russia’s power-loving intervention by the European concert, and not if Europe had intervened, Russia would have swallowed them right away, "bearing in mind the expansion of the borders and the foundation of the great All-Slavic empire on the enslavement of the Slavs to a greedy, cunning and barbarous Great Russian tribe."

      Perhaps a whole century, or even more, they will continually tremble for their freedom and fear the lust for power of Russia; they will curry favor with European states, slander Russia, gossip and intrigue against it.
      Oh, I'm not talking about individuals: there will be those who will understand what it means, it means that Russia will always mean to them. But these people, especially at the beginning, will appear in such a pitiful minority that they will be subjected to ridicule, hatred and even political persecution.

      It will be especially pleasant for the liberated Slavs to express and trumpet the whole world that they are educated tribes capable of the highest European culture, while Russia is a barbaric country, gloomy northern colossus, not even of pure Slavic blood, persecutor and hater of European civilization.
      Of course, they will have, from the very beginning, constitutional governance, parliaments, responsible ministers, speakers, and speeches. They will be extremely comforting and admiring. They will be in ecstasy, reading telegrams about themselves in Paris and London newspapers informing the whole world that after a long parliamentary storm the ministry finally fell into (... the country to taste ...) and a new majority of the liberal majority someday theirs (... last name to taste ...) agreed to finally accept the portfolio of the president of the Council of Ministers.
    4. Rustiger
      Rustiger April 23 2013 17: 47
      +8
      To be continued. . .

      Russia needs to seriously prepare for the fact that all these liberated Slavs will rush into Europe with ecstasy, before losing their personality will become infected with European forms, political and social, and thus will have to go through a long and long period of Europeanism before comprehending anything in its Slavic meaning and its special Slavic vocation among the humanity.

      Between themselves, these little lands will forever quarrel, always envy each other and intrigue against each other. Of course, in the moment of some serious trouble, they will certainly turn to Russia for help. No matter how they hate, gossip and slander us, Europe, flirting with her and assuring her of love, but they will always feel instinctively (of course, in a moment of trouble, and not earlier) that Europe was a natural enemy of their unity, was they will always remain, and what if they exist in the world, then, of course, because there is a huge magnet - Russia, which, irresistibly attracting them all to itself, thus restrains their integrity and unity ... "

      Dostoevsky Fedor Mikhailovich. The diary of a writer. September - December 1877 /
      1. Rustiger
        Rustiger April 23 2013 17: 56
        +5
        Quote: Rustiger
        Dostoevsky Fedor Mikhailovich. The diary of a writer. September - December 1877


        Ukrovsky power devoted !!! Not to be confused with the Ukrainian people and Russians living in Ukraine!

        How is it? Aren't you shouting that Russia is an Asian barbaric country, and Ukraine is a "concrete" Europe? Don't you end up violently at the thought of NATO and the EU? Isn't it your propaganda screaming that Russia and the Russians (according to your Finns, Katsa.pam, Mosk.alam), you "do not owe the slightest gratitude" not for a single day of your history, not for a drop of Russian blood spilled in the fields battles? Don't you think of Russian tanks and riot police, ready to "strangle the shoots of young, Ukrainian democracy" in incomprehensible glitches?
        Tell me, dear're coming out-h.o.kh.l., is there in this 130-year-old Dostoevsky's creative at least one word that would not coincide more than a hundred years later? All your vykobenivaniya predicted accurately and destructively. Was Dostoevsky right? "as he looked into the water." ... ...

        So the day will come when the forecast and the last paragraph will come true. Being diligently weaned, and possibly geographically divided, by their old slave owners Poland and Turkey, and possibly independent Crimean Khazaria (or Tartaria), starving, crawl to your older Russian brother:
        - "Sorry brother, got excited!"
        And brother will forgive everything - "not the first time." Then the prophecy of F. Mikhailovich will come true completely. ... ...
        "... Europe is a natural enemy of their unity, it was and always will be, and what if they exist in the world, then, of course, because there is a huge magnet - Russia, which, irresistibly attracting them all to itself, thereby restrains their integrity and unity... "
    5. uzer 13
      uzer 13 April 23 2013 21: 29
      +1
      You can even agree with the devil if he understands what is required of him and fulfills his obligations. And what is the point of negotiating with entities that are insane and at the state level promote a policy that is extremely unfavorable for Russia in all areas?
    6. morpex
      morpex April 23 2013 21: 48
      -1
      Quote: Anton Russian
      Sooner or later we will agree, it is inevitable !!! We have too much in common and dear.

      I don’t know how true this is, but today Ukrainian media slipped information that the other day Ukraine would sign a treaty with the CU as an observer. I would certainly like a full member, but at least so far. And that’s good news ...
  3. domovoi
    domovoi April 23 2013 15: 40
    12
    Zadolbali already with these "dancing by the fire". Let's face the facts - Ukraine says: "we want to go to Europe." Russia, like a rag, begs, asks, offers ... it is Ukraine that should ask for the Customs Union, for it it is a matter of survival. Doesn't want - well, nah! Planes to build jointly, something else ... Not enough experience in doing business in the style of "brotherly relations"? At the first opportunity, they'll be richer under their uncle ... In the last 70 years, foreign policy has been going on in general ... Zhirinovsky correctly says - "only business."
    1. domovoi
      domovoi April 23 2013 15: 46
      +2
      minus no replica? What kind of slap? no arguments? tongue
    2. Belanov-ga
      Belanov-ga April 23 2013 15: 58
      +1
      I agree. No one needs Russia, let alone ohm. Personal life experience shows that crests tend to penetrate intensively into key places in the economy and management, and create national groups there that act in their own interests.
      1. Technocrat
        Technocrat April 23 2013 18: 47
        -3
        Bullshit...
        Simple verbal diarrhea and nothing more, as far as I can see, the groups here are created by representatives of completely different nationalities, they can dance in the middle of the road and dance, and spit on the eternal fire, but nothing, we are proud people, we’ll rub off and let's go further, we don’t have time for such trifles
    3. Canep
      Canep April 23 2013 17: 02
      +1
      In general, Russia and Ukraine and Kazakhstan and Belarus are also interested in unification (Batka almost wrote). The position of the leadership (if this rabble can be called so) is not clear. Upon joining the EU, Ukrainian goods in the West will not be needed, the industry will stop. But when Ukraine joins the CU, the market of Russia and other CU countries will open. In the first scenario, a decline in production, in the second, growth by 8-12% The choice is obvious. And no one is pleading with Ukraine to join the TS, just for the narrow-minded "leaders" of the country, Russia (and others) explains on the fingers and pictures what is what.
      1. imrek_ua
        imrek_ua April 23 2013 17: 56
        +5
        Why is it incomprehensible here? The leadership, or rather the moneybags that they are afraid of him, sho as soon as Ukraine joins the CU, large uncles will come from Russia and in a moment this very leadership and others like him from the feeder will be moved away. Everything is just like a stool.
    4. Rustiger
      Rustiger April 23 2013 18: 31
      +5
      Quote: domovoi
      At the earliest opportunity, they will lie richer under uncle ...


      And let's kick out all sorts of Chabadniks and the "rulers" they control at the "promised" one. Let's call "to the kingdom" Old Man Lukashenko (well, not Kim Jong-un, but... belay ) And we will be friends at home, albeit without close merger / copulation !!! drinks
    5. nickname 1 and 2
      nickname 1 and 2 April 23 2013 19: 31
      +1
      Quote: domovoi
      Ukraine should ask for a vehicle, for her it is a matter of survival.


      Yes, these Tuziks are out of the question! They put a "bat" on their people.
      Here the answer is given to those lads yaks on the tsey forum drop in and haut "m osk lei"!

      as you? am
    6. Civil
      Civil April 23 2013 21: 19
      +1
      Quote: domovoi
      Zadolbali already with these "dancing by the fire". Let's face the facts - Ukraine says: "we want to go to Europe." Russia, like a rag, begs, asks, offers ... it is Ukraine that should ask for the Customs Union, for it it is a matter of survival. Doesn't want - well, nah! Planes to build jointly, something else ... Not enough experience in doing business in the style of "brotherly relations"? At the first opportunity, they'll be richer under their uncle ... In the last 70 years, foreign policy has been going on in general ... Zhirinovsky correctly says - "only business."


      that's it, everything is clear already, for years we used to go to bed with those who are stronger
  4. pa_nik
    pa_nik April 23 2013 15: 40
    +3
    Russia's relations with other states of the former USSR are reminiscent of the well-known saying: "Together is impossible, and apart - in no way!"
  5. fzr1000
    fzr1000 April 23 2013 15: 40
    +3
    The Prime Minister of Ukraine Mykola Azarov announced the achievement of an agreement on granting Kiev observer status in the Customs Union.

    "In my opinion, the decision has already been made. We have agreed, and now technical negotiations on the wording are being completed. We will be observers in the Customs Union, we will have a representative office at the Eurasian Economic Commission, respectively, the head of the representative office will have the opportunity to participate in a meeting of the board of the Eurasian Union, to receive participation in the preparation of documents, but will not have the right to vote, "- said the head of the Cabinet of Ministers at a meeting with representatives of foreign media.

    N. Azarov also confirmed that the agreement on granting Ukraine observer status in the Customs Union could be signed in May 2013.

    Recall that earlier, Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said that the Customs Union would be happy to see Ukraine as an observer with an advisory vote. Stressing, however, that in observer status Ukraine will not be able to influence decisions made within the Customs Union.

    top.rbc.ru
    1. avt
      avt April 23 2013 16: 36
      -1
      Quote: fzr1000
      The Prime Minister of Ukraine Mykola Azarov announced the achievement of an agreement on granting Kiev observer status in the Customs Union.

      I smoked probably Chinese mixtures. Or I breathed in a moment.
      1. fzr1000
        fzr1000 April 23 2013 17: 26
        0
        Maybe it's just the gorilka cackling? Wait and see.
    2. Warrawar
      Warrawar April 23 2013 18: 15
      +3
      Quote: fzr1000
      The Prime Minister of Ukraine Mykola Azarov announced the achievement of an agreement on granting Kiev observer status in the Customs Union.


      Members of the Customs Union did not grant Ukraine observer status.
      This was stated by Deputy Head of the Russian Ministry of Economic Development Alexei Likhachev
      http://vsekommentarii.com/news/2013/04/23/8830990.htm
      1. Egoza
        Egoza April 23 2013 19: 02
        +1
        Quote: Warrawar
        Members of the Customs Union did not grant Ukraine observer status.

        So all this is said to reassure those who are against the EU and NATO. And he does not approve of "active promotion in the EU." Although the EU can do a very good job with the association, then there will be a reason to say, "and we agreed a long time ago, even Azarov said ..."
  6. Ak 12
    Ak 12 April 23 2013 15: 41
    +1
    Quote: domovoi
    Zadolbali already with these "dancing by the fire". Let's face the facts - Ukraine says: "we want to go to Europe." Russia, like a rag, begs, asks, offers ... it is Ukraine that should ask for the Customs Union, for it it is a matter of survival. Doesn't want - well, nah! Planes to build jointly, something else ... Not enough experience in doing business in the style of "brotherly relations"? At the first opportunity, they'll be richer under their uncle ... In the last 70 years, foreign policy has been going on in general ... Zhirinovsky correctly says - "only business."

    from Europe to the crisis is not far
    1. domovoi
      domovoi April 23 2013 15: 46
      0
      are you telling me this? I am simply stating a fact.
    2. Starksa
      Starksa April 23 2013 16: 06
      +2
      geyropov (EU) have a public debt of 80% of GDP, non-visionary politicians sit in Ukraine
      1. Nesvet Nezar
        Nesvet Nezar April 23 2013 16: 55
        +4
        There are no politicians in Ukraine. The power there is separatist and usurpation. They all accidentally came to power, and therefore do not know what to do with it. With all the flaws in our country, all the same, the elites are forming and seeing the situation in the world, they invest money in their country. Communist China argues that national capitalist elites are needed. And in Ukraine, before the start of such processes, another 30 years.
      2. Warrawar
        Warrawar April 23 2013 18: 17
        0
        Quote: StarkSA
        geyropov (EU) have a public debt of 80% of GDP, non-visionary politicians sit in Ukraine

        Already 85%
        http://germany.mfa.gov.by/ru/belarus/belarus_news/ebfc20b581f96dc2.html
  7. Rustiger
    Rustiger April 23 2013 17: 55
    0
    Ukrovsky power devoted !!! Not to be confused with Ukrainian people and Russians living in Ukraine!

    How is it? Aren't you shouting that Russia is an Asian barbaric country, and Ukraine is a "concrete" Europe? Don't you end up violently at the thought of NATO and the EU? Isn't it your propaganda screaming that Russia and the Russians (according to your Finnish-Ugric), you “don't owe the slightest gratitude” for a single day of your history, not for a drop of Russian blood shed on the battlefields? Don't you think of Russian tanks and riot police, ready to "strangle the shoots of young, Ukrainian democracy" in incomprehensible glitches?
    Tell me, dear're coming out-h.o.kh.l., is there in this 130-year-old Dostoevsky's creative at least one word that would not coincide more than a hundred years later? All your vykobenivaniya predicted accurately and destructively. Was Dostoevsky right? "as he looked into the water." ... ...

    So the day will come when the forecast and the last paragraph will come true. Being diligently weaned, and possibly geographically divided, by their old slave owners Poland and Turkey, and possibly independent Crimean Khazaria (or Tartaria), starving, crawl to your older Russian brother:
    - "Sorry brother, got excited!"
    And brother will forgive everything - "not the first time." Then the prophecy of F. Mikhailovich will come true completely. ... ...
  8. uzer 13
    uzer 13 April 23 2013 18: 06
    +3
    It’s time to finally learn to call a spade a spade. Ukraine is not our friend or brother, but we should not even consider it as a business partner. To be friends with this failed state is the same as trying to persuade a pathological kleptomaniac to stop stealing. They have their own way. Let them they join NATO and the European Union, unless, of course, they are taken there with their bad habits. Although for some Russians, Ukraine is still both a friend and a brother because it looks a lot like a nearby offshore zone where stolen money can be laundered.
  9. svp67
    svp67 April 23 2013 18: 12
    +6
    It’s time to finally learn how to call a spade a spade. Ukraine we are not a friend and not a brother, but as a business partner it is generally not worth considering.

    I disagree. Yes, now Ukraine is not our friend. But she has not ceased to be a "brother" or "sister". Alas, this also happens among people. In this situation, a lot also depends on us. We ourselves need to decide what we want and do it systematically
    1. uzer 13
      uzer 13 April 23 2013 23: 08
      +1
      And we live only now. Yesterday we were not there, and tomorrow there will be no more.
  10. pechv
    pechv April 23 2013 18: 22
    +1
    Quote: Canep
    Canep SU Today, 17: 02 ↑
    In the first option, the decline in production, in the second growth by 8-12%. The choice is obvious.


    There is no rational left here. This is how to explain Mac's benefits to a PC follower. There is only hope for the opportunity to get a pass to the western paradise. Disappointment may be more bitter than the hardships of waiting on the threshold of paradise.
    The only rational explanation for the desires of Ukrainians is that in the West the sane administrative system is tired of the stupidity of their leaders. But how it will work in Ukraine is even hypothetically difficult to imagine. And the will in the direction of its development will still be imposed from the outside. Maybe it’s easier to start a war and surrender to the invaders? Then they will heal ...
  11. igorspb
    igorspb April 23 2013 18: 25
    0
    Quote: domovoi
    Zadolbali already with these "dancing by the fire". Let's face the facts - Ukraine says: "we want to go to Europe." Russia, like a rag, begs, asks, offers ... it is Ukraine that should ask for the Customs Union, for it it is a matter of survival. Doesn't want - well, nah! Planes to build jointly, something else ... Not enough experience in doing business in the style of "brotherly relations"? At the first opportunity, they'll be richer under their uncle ... In the last 70 years, foreign policy has been going on in general ... Zhirinovsky correctly says - "only business."

    If I understood correctly about Ukraine, like it has defined its position firmly, and it doesn't change it in any way, even for money? And "Russia is like a rag", constantly unbending Ukraine pulls somewhere? Is it so? Oh well. We will see. The flag is in your hands. Zhovto-blakitny.
  12. alex82
    alex82 April 23 2013 18: 30
    +6
    Yes, brother to us, Ukraine, brother. And sister, too. Native and. Yes, now we misunderstand each other. Each has his own ambitions. We now look like teenagers, from one extreme to the other. And the irritability is big ... Let's hope that we change our minds .
  13. Ezhaak
    Ezhaak April 23 2013 19: 46
    +1
    Judging by the content of the article, one of the two "friends" is too cunning. I will not point a finger because it is indecent.
  14. Avenger711
    Avenger711 April 23 2013 19: 50
    0
    The program includes 255 areas of cooperation


    Yeah, to the eyeballs, another 1 and there will be an overflow. laughing
    1. Avenger711
      Avenger711 April 23 2013 22: 22
      0
      It’s immediately obvious that the programmer wasn’t the one who was the worst.
      1. Rustiger
        Rustiger April 24 2013 01: 45
        0
        Quote: Avenger711
        not programmer

        Then it was necessary to write 255.255.255.255 . . .
        And then it turned out too tricky. . .
  15. CAPILATUS
    CAPILATUS April 23 2013 19: 54
    -3
    The Russians initially set foot on the An-70. How the project stalled due to poor financing by Ukraine - it was necessary to immediately redeem all the rights to develop both the engine and the airframe, the Vedas knew for a fool that the plane was very promising and in demand. And then we ourselves finance the development of the aircraft and engine to serial ones. And it would not be necessary now to curtsy towards Ukraine to postpone and fear that China steals technology. Business is business and there is no middle ground here. Pay grandmas - get what you ordered. Russia wanted to save, hoping that Ukraine would finance at least part of the project - get it and sign it. We have what we have. Here, as in the saying - avaricious pays twice ...
    1. GELEZNII_KAPUT
      GELEZNII_KAPUT April 23 2013 20: 22
      0
      Yes, they went with his somolot, this daisy already and not only with this! stop
  16. aviamed90
    aviamed90 April 23 2013 21: 17
    0
    Does Ukraine have an army? I heard about the military-industrial complex (MIC), but about the army - alas.
  17. Lucius
    Lucius April 24 2013 02: 46
    +1
    We need to look for opportunities for interaction with Ukrainians. An article about the An-70 was very revealing in this regard. Such our Russian fate to be a cut above all their petty and often not in the case of offensive claims. But no one except us will lend a hand of friendship in response to petty insults. It seems to me that we already have the opportunity to step over this narrow framework of the narrow-winged nationalism that we did not propose, and propose the agenda for tomorrow.
  18. Black Colonel
    Black Colonel April 24 2013 13: 00
    -2
    The issue of Crimea and Sevastopol will be resolved only after the division of the Independent into Eastern and Western. And it (separation) goes quietly.
    1. sop.ov
      sop.ov April 24 2013 14: 31
      0
      Quote: Black Colonel
      The issue of Crimea and Sevastopol will be resolved only after the division of the Independent into Eastern and Western. And it (separation) goes quietly.

      It is doubtful. The top ten Ukrainian oligarchs are unlikely to want to become the third top ten Russian.
  19. The comment was deleted.