Military Review

Kurdistan as a hundred years old Poland

110
It would seem that they have in common. They have never historically intersected - neither kinship, nor wars between them, nor significant trade. Yet there are direct analogies in their destinies.


Poland was not a hundred years ago, but the Polish people were. It was divided between the powers that be, and they had no chance of creating their own state. There were dreams, there was a hymn, there were maps “from mozh to mozh”, but there was no country, and it could not be, if three monarchies had not collapsed as a result of bloody events known as the Great War or the First World War. Poland appeared - the state is aggressive and ambitious.

But the music did not last long, and twenty years after the independence they had so long awaited, they again fell under "external control." Initially, there was Hitler Germany, which carried out a real genocide. Do not release them to the USSR, now the term "Poland" would be known only to historians. After the Nazis, the Poles fell under the tight control of Soviet Russia.

Of course, only those who evaded psychiatric treatment of the individual, for some reason, seized power in the Baltic States and other countries suffering from an inferiority complex, can compare the two regimes, but Echo Washington’s figures, but for several decades the main decisions were not made in Warsaw, and in Moscow. Now the Poles also decide little in their own country, although they are trying to behave "as big." Under the smiles, friendly hugs and talk about a united Europe, the same thing happens - everything is decided by Berlin and Brussels, behind which looms the US (This is, of course, a matter of taste, but it’s better for me to deal with an amateur kissing Leonid Brezhnev than frank sodomite Guido Westerwelle ).

It turns out that Poland gets real independence only when its neighbors, for some reason, temporarily weaken. She immediately remembers all her ambition, her greatness, and tries to grab more than she can swallow.

Recall Pilsudski, taking advantage of the Civil War 1917-1922 g (not the first time the Poles are trying to profit from us during the troubles), was not content with ethnically Polish lands, but decided to recreate the state "from weed to wegee". Later, when Hitler occupied Czechoslovakia, Poland, right there, “snatched” itself and the Teshen region (Teshensky Silesia). For his love of attacking opponents in a helpless state, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill wittily compared Poland to hyena. Even the Poles did not allow the Germans to build a road to East Prussia (ay, Lithuania, do you have any analogies?), Yulila, did not agree to an anti-Hitler alliance with the USSR. In the end, she got what she got: two “giants before biting, tired of this“ third center of power ”and they eliminated it. Then, already before the liberation of Warsaw, the “government in exile” wanted to arrange a tricky combination, but in the end received a large number of victims among the deceived patriots.

Now Poland is also trying to play on the contradictions of the “senior comrades”. Its Eastern partnership, the “hilling” of Ukraine and Lithuania, the toothless attempts to draw Belarus into the orbit of influence — all this has already bothered its neighbors. As I wrote earlier in the article “The exact date of the new world war is unknown,” sooner or later the United States will go overseas, then it will be very uncomfortable for the Poles.

Kurdish settlement area resembles spilled ink. Turkey, Iraq, Iran are very heavily flooded, Syria is hurt, there are “splashes” in Armenia and Azerbaijan. In my article “What they need from Syria,” I suggested that behind the recent events in the Middle East, the ears of orthodox Israel stick out, to which you give Judea “from the Nile to the Euphrates.”

Look at the map: none of the regional players need “big Israel”, except ... the Kurds. Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran are the natural competitors of the Jews and the oppressors of the Kurds. Even an extended Judea does not claim to Kurdish lands. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" - this aphorism is invented in the East, and it fits the situation perfectly well.

Recall that international bankers profited from the First World War; at its end, they created such structures as the State Bank of England or the Federal Reserve System. They were also interested in the collapse of the Russian, German and Austro-Hungarian empires with the formation of national states, including Poland. And they are “of one blood and faith” with lovers of “big Israel.”

Recall that in 1915 the Kurds also participated in the massacre of Armenians and Greeks, they were also beneficiaries of this act, having settled a significant part of the liberated land. Those. historical they have experience of “mutual development of the liberated territories”.

It may be objected that now the Kurds in Syria are fighting on the same side with the government. Yes it is. But this is primarily the merit of Assad, the result of his ingenious combination, as a result of which the local Kurds, who hate the Turks, cover the north of the country. But what will happen when order is brought in Syria? Assad will restore sovereignty over Kurdish areas, and they obviously will not be delighted with this.

In all other countries with a compact Kurdish population, they play a clearly destructive role. In the north of a dilapidated Iraq, they received the broadest autonomy (not in playing up to the Jews the reason for the invasion of this country?), In Turkey there is a sluggish conflict with the authorities. If my thoughts are correct, they can pass Ankara at any time.

The Kurds are not heard only in Iran, but this can be explained by a relatively small percentage of the Kurdish population in the country or the informational opacity of the IRI. But never mind, another interethnic fault has been prepared for the Persians - Azerbaijani. It is not because of Karabakh that Israel is vigorously courting, arming Baku, all this talk about renaming the country into Northern Azerbaijan, anti-Iranian hysteria in the local press — these are all links of one chain, Israeli.

The process of the collapse of the Empires in the First World War and the subsequent events in Poland and around it were very bloody and cruel. Is this the same thing that begins before our eyes in the Middle East?
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  1. FC SKIF
    23 March 2013 09: 33
    22
    Many modern processes are "described" in history. You just need to compare and a lot becomes clearer.
    1. Aleks28
      Aleks28 23 March 2013 09: 57
      +9
      Quote: FC Skif
      Many modern processes are "described" in history. You just need to compare and a lot becomes clearer.

      Well done, competent article good + both to you and the article.
      1. Vladimirets
        Vladimirets 23 March 2013 11: 49
        11
        Quote: FC Skif
        Many modern processes are "described" in history. You just need to compare and a lot becomes clearer.

        Scythian, I did not put a plus or minus. You can, of course, find analogies in history for any event or phenomenon, but it is incorrect to compare Kurds and Poles. Yes, Poland actually was not 100 years ago, but it had a centuries-old history that the futuristic Kurdistan never had. The Poles, as it were, did not belong to them, had the genetic memory of a sovereign state, while the Kurds have been fighting for independence with varying success throughout history. Geopolitically, ethnic Polish lands have always been between developed states that fought for hegemony. The Kurds are simply an ethnic group that historically populated the territories of neighboring states. In addition, the dream of a great Judea is, IMHO, a kitchen dream. I, too, maybe dream of Rusal in ownership, but this does not mean that I dig under Deripaska.
        1. Monge
          Monge 23 March 2013 12: 17
          11 th
          The neglect of the Pole always surprised me. Remember from history that not many took Moscow.
          1. Aleks28
            Aleks28 23 March 2013 13: 03
            11
            Quote: Monge
            The neglect of the Pole always surprised me. Remember from history that not many took Moscow.

            There was one name from the Polish troops, there was honor all of Europe. Well, nothing in itig anyway for them, it ended in disaster.
          2. Gregazov
            Gregazov 23 March 2013 14: 08
            +4
            Moscow was not taken; in those days, it itself, in the person of various traitors, was looking for support for the authorities. So I found it.
          3. smile
            smile 23 March 2013 15: 17
            +6
            Monge
            The attitude towards them is due to the fact that their claims to world domination were too ridiculous - how else to call it. what else under Vasa (the Swedish king of Poland) in their coat of arms they reflected as subject lands of Sweden, Prussia, Silesia, Russia, etc. - almost a quarter of Eurasia (this was later reduced appetites to "from one to one") .... and they didn't just draw, they also tried to win back ... :))) And so - yes, we started to beat them at 17 when the population of this state exceeded ours by about 2,5 times ...
            1. gora1960
              gora1960 April 11 2013 17: 53
              0
              Not a funny claim at all. Like Charles XII in 100 years. The usual brawl between close relatives. In Nosovsky and Fomenko everything has long been written in the New Chronology.
          4. vjhbc
            vjhbc 23 March 2013 15: 26
            0
            and how it relates to them if they consider each individually a navel of land and they don’t give a damn about their state and anyone who had a little more than 100 soldiers could take Moscow during the troubles
          5. vjhbc
            vjhbc 23 March 2013 15: 27
            +3
            but how does it feel about them if they consider themselves individually a navel of land and they don’t give a damn about their state and anyone who had a little more than 100 soldiers could take Moscow during the trouble
            1. core
              core 24 March 2013 16: 22
              +2
              Poles did not take Moscow, the gates were opened for the so-called "natural king".
          6. dark_65
            dark_65 23 March 2013 16: 01
            +3
            They didn’t take Moscow, it was far-fetched, to enter, yes, they entered, The exit turned out to be a little expensive. And neglect, this is an attitude towards an enemy friend.
            Like it or not, but we are of the same kind, and together how much already.
            After all, there are no worse related fights.
          7. piter-tank
            piter-tank 23 March 2013 19: 41
            +4
            But no one in Moscow To take and could not. Never!!!
            In cases when enemy troops entered it, it was we ourselves who retreated in strategic interests (1812) or the local "business elite" opened the gates (1609). All! More cases of the capture of the capital of the Russian state have not been historically recorded. Moreover, in 1812 the capital was St. Petersburg.
          8. core
            core 24 March 2013 16: 20
            0
            But did the Poles take Moscow? please remind me when it was?
        2. FC SKIF
          23 March 2013 13: 13
          +2
          Quote: Vladimirets
          In addition, the dream of a great Judea is, IMHO, a kitchen dream. I, too, maybe dream of Rusal in ownership, but this does not mean that I dig under Deripaska.

          But my assumptions with recent events are not very badly combined.
          1. Vladimirets
            Vladimirets 23 March 2013 16: 46
            +3
            Quote: FC Skif
            But my assumptions with recent events are not very badly combined.

            You know, it seems to me that the main interest of Israel now is not the seizure of territories and the creation of super-Jews, but the overthrow of historically hostile regimes around the country. Egypt, for example, is now completely not up to the Jews, there is an internal struggle for power, the same thing in Syria. The blue dream is to plunge into the chaos of Iran. Jews are not stupid and understand that in the event they begin to seize adjacent territories, all the warring parties will fight with them.
        3. zart_arn
          zart_arn 23 March 2013 13: 48
          -2
          I would note that comparing the Kurds with the Poles is unsuccessful. A closer comparison would be between Kurds and Jews:
          - both of them - the indigenous, indigenous population of those places (i.e., living on this earth since time immemorial),
          - both of them for a long time were oppressed by the invaders and lived under the yoke of the invaders without their own statehood (the Turks and Arabs - the tribes in those parts were newcomers and newcomers are not in peace),
          - Jews and Kurds claim only on the territory of historical residence (and not from "mozha" to "mozha", like the Poles).
          1. smile
            smile 23 March 2013 15: 56
            +3
            zart_arn
            Come on, aliens, non-aliens ... here you say, if Moses brought you from somewhere, then you, too, are not local .. :))))) By the way, where did those who already lived there go to? , and? :)))
            1. zart_arn
              zart_arn 23 March 2013 19: 37
              0
              Oh, this is generally an interesting topic, the migration of peoples. In this case, we can only talk about events recorded in writing in historical chronicles and confirmed archaeologically.
              By the way, according to historical, linguistic and anthropological data, Jews and Arabs are close relatives and in the era of the ancient Jewish states were so close linguistically that they understood each other perfectly.
              And so, for information, I don’t go to the synagogue, Moishe didn’t take me anywhere, and in general, as a kind Christian I treat their showdowns with compassion, no more and no less.
              1. smile
                smile 23 March 2013 20: 01
                +1
                zart_arn
                That's right - the Semitic-Hamitic language group. Relatives..:)))
                Even if you were a rabbi, it would not matter to me. It is important what you think and do, the rest is fleur .... Eh. I lost a favorite visitor to the site Odessa. I liked her comments, and spit out what her nationality is Jewish or Zulu ...
                1. zart_arn
                  zart_arn 23 March 2013 20: 12
                  0
                  Perhaps she was disappointed by those who, well, are running around with wooden machine guns?
                  1. smile
                    smile 23 March 2013 22: 21
                    +1
                    zart_arn
                    No, firstly, wherever you bump into it, you get off - don’t put a finger in your mouth - it will bite off your head1 :))) Well, in general, our person. And secondly, without offending Israel, she was a real Russian patriot. Those who went too far also drove. In general - unique! :))))
                    1. zart_arn
                      zart_arn 23 March 2013 22: 48
                      0
                      Yes, there is nothing for such people to bite, "poz", and that thin, as they say, from the previous one word. Perhaps banned forever, it happens here.
                      1. smile
                        smile 23 March 2013 23: 05
                        +2
                        zart_arn
                        I will not believe in life - Odessa woman is the property of the site. - "He's a monument - who will plant him" :))))
                      2. zart_arn
                        zart_arn 23 March 2013 23: 08
                        +1
                        It may not have been banned, but it just became boring and dreary. If her comments are cut out, then it’s definitely banned. You can search in past articles or write a letter, maybe he will answer.
                      3. smile
                        smile 23 March 2013 23: 49
                        0
                        zart_arn
                        Damn, maybe they brought it ... and I, brake, didn’t think to see her comments .... it’s a pity .... By the way, about the dreary, probably also ....
                      4. Yarbay
                        Yarbay 24 March 2013 11: 29
                        0
                        Quote: smile
                        It may not have been banned, but it just became boring and dreary. If her comments are cut out, then it’s definitely banned. You can search in past articles or write a letter, maybe he will answer.


                        Quote: smile
                        Damn, maybe they brought it ... and I, brake, didn’t think to see her comments .... it’s a pity .... By the way, about the dreary, probably also ....

                        Yes, do not ban her and this is incredible))))))
              2. Yarbay
                Yarbay 24 March 2013 11: 27
                +2
                Quote: smile
                In general - unique! :))))

                I agree!!)))))
                Only she did not disappear, a little busy I think !!)))
                Soon take on the bourgeoisie))
                1. smile
                  smile 24 March 2013 13: 44
                  +1
                  Yarbay
                  welcome! Pleased !:))))
                  Well, Russian, so Russian, it doesn’t matter ....
                2. Yarbay
                  Yarbay 24 March 2013 16: 36
                  +1
                  Quote: smile
                  welcome! Pleased !:))))
                  Well, Russian, so Russian, it doesn’t matter ....

                  I welcome you too)))
                  I know her as a brother for sure))))
        4. Yarbay
          Yarbay 24 March 2013 11: 25
          +1
          Quote: smile
          Eh. I lost a favorite visitor to the site Odessa. I liked her comments, and spit out what her nationality is Jewish or Zulu ..

          Everything is correct !!))))
          Only she is Russian !!)))
  2. Ascetic
    Ascetic 23 March 2013 18: 39
    +7
    Quote: zart_arn
    Jews and Kurds claim only on the territory of historical residence (and not from "mozha" to "mozha", like the Poles).
    1. zart_arn
      zart_arn 23 March 2013 19: 39
      +5
      Apparently, this is another "test" for them! laughing
  • Ascetic
    Ascetic 23 March 2013 17: 48
    11
    Quote: Vladimirets
    Scythian, I did not put a plus or minus. You can, of course, find analogies in history for any event or phenomenon, but it is incorrect to compare Kurds and Poles.


    First of all, we must remember that there is no such Kurdish nationality, and the Kurdish tribes are not at all a single people, so different that they even have different religions. They were never united, tribal relations always outweighed the idea of ​​creating a Single Kurdistan. Whoever tried to play the Kurdish card from English to the Turks. yes, nothing came of it. Rather, all this Kurdish bodyag is reminiscent of an Afghan intertribal and interethnic cauldron where no one can ever cook the soup he needs.
    If they were united, a huge independent Kurdistan would have long been not only on the map, but also dominated the region.. Without any Israel and other helpers. But this will apparently never happen.
    Kurds themselves are composed of four nationalities (sub-ethnic groups) -taife with different customs and even languages! They have very different outlooks on life and an extremely complex attitude towards their "brethren." These taifes are further divided into tribes. Kabila Mlani (pastoralist tribes), zilani (tribes of farmers) and misken (urban tribes) are at odds with each other, even within the same asiret (confederation of tribes) which are more than fifty and which, in turn, are constantly in conflict both for the expansion of their zones of influence and "according to the precepts of their ancestors." Therefore, there will be no Great Kurdistan, the maximum that is possible in this mess is the implementation of the idea "Three Kurdistan"has long been stably functioning Iraqi, now emerging Syrian and Iranian, which, consider, at the start. And the fourth, if Ankara behaves well, will not be. That is, the Kurds are needed only as a tool to weaken the less stable and trying to get out of America's control of the Middle East states, create controlled chaos and destabilize the region. For the weak and the wild are easier to manage than the strong and independent.
    1. hrych
      hrych 23 March 2013 20: 47
      +5
      Dear Stanislav, this is so, but in part. The division into cattle breeders, farmers, and city dwellers can be applied to all peoples, beginning with Herodotus descriptions and Indian castes. Political scientists of all countries who share this Kurdistan are especially trying to forget the Kurdish nationality, but over the past thousand years they have synchronized their authenticity. I had the opportunity to communicate with students of Kurdish origin from Syria (truth twenty years ago), so I can say that they have a supranational national organization operating around the world. Yes, and you remember how, after the arrest of Ocalan, they held actions simultaneously around the world. Kurdistan actually already has the truth, a splinter of Iraq, but already with oil.
  • askort154
    askort154 23 March 2013 13: 10
    +7
    Quote ... FC Skif .... You just need to compare and a lot becomes clearer.

    I totally agree. Analytics, and only analytics. About the bid
    Israel to the Kurds ?! Please note - a week ago, Israel and Turkey
    exchanged in "friendly" agreements. (before Obama's arrival) And a couple of days later, the leader of the Kurdish party announced the end of resistance in the region !!! Whose member, in whose hands, it is not necessary to go for a long time!
    Thanks for the short and logical article!
  • nnz226
    nnz226 23 March 2013 14: 05
    +5
    "A person who does not foresee the future, failures and misfortunes await him! STUDY THE HISTORY TO PREVENT THE FUTURE!" (Kun-Tzu, aka Confucius)
  • radio operator
    radio operator 24 March 2013 11: 59
    +3
    I recalled the KVNovsky joke of the 80's.
    A phrase from the audience: "German and Soviet border guards met. We talked. What about?"
    The team's response: "Where is Poland?"
    Something like this.
  • opkozak
    opkozak 23 March 2013 09: 37
    +6
    Abdullah Ocalan, leader of the Kurdish Workers Party (PKK) imprisoned in Turkey, called on his comrades to cease fire for subsequent peace talks with Turkey
    The message of the leader of the separatist Workers' Party of Kurdistan in the Kurdish and Turkish languages ​​was heard by hundreds of thousands of people.

    Ocalan congratulated “all brotherly ethnic groups” living in Turkey on the “holiday of peace” and called on PKK militants to disarm and leave the country. “Prisoner number one,” as the media call him, expressed hope for the birth of “a new Turkey, a new Middle East,” where the Kurdish people will have equal rights with all other peoples. According to Ocalan, the armed struggle of the Kurds for their rights is now replaced by a “democratic struggle”, comparable in importance with the war for national liberation against the occupying armies of the Entente at the beginning of the last century.

    In the recent past, the communist and materialist recalled that the Kurdish and Turkish peoples had lived together “under the banner of Islam” for a thousand years and hinted that the Kurds should think about establishing a general Kurdish “National Congress” without specifying this concept.
    1. FC SKIF
      23 March 2013 09: 49
      0
      Not passionate. If I got down to business, then to the end.
      1. elmi
        elmi 23 March 2013 10: 46
        +7
        Quote: opkozak
        Abdullah Ocalan, leader of the Kurdish Workers Party (PKK) imprisoned in Turkey, called on his comrades to cease fire for subsequent peace talks with Turkey

        Surely the Turkish special services had a hand in such a peaceful message.
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay 23 March 2013 10: 59
          +4
          Quote: elmi
          Surely the Turkish special services had a hand in such a peaceful message.

          Well, everyone knows about this !!
          Because of this, the nationalist party of Turkey even declared Erdogan a traitor !!
      2. avt
        avt 23 March 2013 10: 59
        +4
        Quote: FC Skif
        Not passionate. If I got down to business, then to the end.

        In conclusion, there are many ways to regulate "passionarity", and very effective, taking into account the development of science.
  • Goga
    Goga 23 March 2013 09: 40
    +3
    God knows how things will go further, but still the Kurds with their problems who just did not use the British and Germans and our staff and ... - and as a result, the Kurdish question both hung and hangs, despite the emergence of some forms of autonomy in Iraq and Syria.
    1. FC SKIF
      23 March 2013 09: 50
      +2
      For me, let it "hang" further - less blood will be shed. This is what I wanted to convey in the article.
    2. dropout
      dropout 23 March 2013 12: 51
      +1
      Quote: Gogh
      God knows how things will go further, but so far the Kurds with their problems who just have not used both the British and Germans and our staff and ... - and as a result, the Kurdish question has been hanging and hanging

      Settled in several countries, oppressed and discriminated, the Kurds are not assimilated. Despite the almost complete lack of livelihoods, the Kurds continue to live, arm themselves and, in all historically visible past, fight with those who live. The idea that this is beneficial to someone, is simply necessary for someone; so that in this region there constantly exists a center fraught with fire. And it is quite possible that now money is dripping from Israel. If she runs out. another will appear. Just historically. that long-term stability in this region. very many across the throat.
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 23 March 2013 09: 58
    +7
    *** Look at the map: none of the regional players need “Greater Israel”, except for ... Kurds *** -You have a mistake and very big !!
    In reality, the exact opposite!
    None of the regional players need * Kurdistan *!
    but Israel needs him and since Israel needed him he began to be created !!
    The only question is the size of the territory !!
    Because of this, there will also be long wars !!
    Arabs have yet another serious enemy !!
    *** They may object to me that now the Kurds in Syria are fighting on the same side with the government. Yes it is. But this is first of all Assad’s merit, the result of his ingenious combination, as a result of which the local Kurds hating the Turks cover the north of the country *** -again not quite so !!
    there is the influence of PKK among the Kurds !!
    not all Kurds are at war with the Turks!
    Many are loyal and even fight the PKK!
    An example even the president was Kurd Turgut Ozal!

    In many respects, the roots of the current support of the opposition by the Turks are the result of the long-term support of the Syrian PKK for many years!
    1. FC SKIF
      23 March 2013 10: 08
      +3
      All Arabs are enemies of Israel - a fact. Arab countries oppress Kurds - fact. The enemy of my enemy is my friend - an Eastern saying.
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 23 March 2013 10: 19
        +3
        Quote: FC Skif
        All Arabs are enemies of Israel - a fact. Arab countries oppress Kurds - fact. The enemy of my enemy is my friend - an Eastern saying.

        You are a little about that !!
        The saying is good !!
        You just didn’t catch my thought!
        Only since Israel decided that there should be Kurdistan, this project began to be realized !!
        Israel will not want to close this project tomorrow, although it’s too late, the decision has been made !!
        1. FC SKIF
          23 March 2013 10: 45
          +2
          We are talking about the same thing. Israel needs Kurdistan, this is their project. The article is about this.
          1. Kaa
            Kaa 23 March 2013 14: 03
            +7
            Quote: FC Skif
            Israel needs Kurdistan, this is their project
            Dear FC Skif, at the beginning it was a Soviet, then a German project. "For the special services, the national liberation movements have always been the ideal material for carrying out intelligence activities. In the 20th century, the Kurds were perhaps the most attractive freedom fighters for intelligence services in different countries. It is no coincidence that the two most famous saboteurs of the century, Pavel Sudoplatov and Otto Skorzeny, worked with them. The Kurds are the most ancient population of Western Asia (we all "passed" them at school under the name of the Medes in the lessons of the history of the Ancient World.) They were to receive statehood according to the Peace Treaty of Sevres of 1920, which decided the fate of the Ottoman Empire, but this did not happen. the Iranian Kurds was the first assignment of the famous German saboteur Otto Skorzeny, when he was appointed chief of the sabotage department of the Foreign Intelligence Directorate of the SD in 1943. The intelligence chiefs of the Third Reich Kaltenbrunner and Schellenberg tasked Skorzeny with the task of cutting off or at least constantly threatening the oil refining regions of Iran, and Iranian ironroads. Moreover, Schellenberg proposed to achieve this goal by supporting the Kurds. Small groups of German commandos were supposed to supply weapons to the rebellious tribes and work with them as instructors, as well as carry out sabotage on their own. In 1946 in Iranian Kurdistan, in the zone of control of Soviet troops, the Kurdish Mehabad Republic was created. However, in 1947, Soviet troops were withdrawn from Iran, and after that the Iranian authorities liquidated the Kurdish Republic. The leaders of the Kurdish rebels fell into a trap set by the shah: they were invited to Tehran for negotiations, captured there and hanged. Only one Kurdish leader, Barzani, escaped this fate and was forced, together with his associates, to cross the border of the USSR, finding himself on the territory of Azerbaijan. Meanwhile, according to Sudoplatov, then no one doubted that perhaps the main factor that influenced the USSR's decision to support the Kurds was oil. Soviet intelligence hoped that, with the help of the Kurds, it would be possible to disable the oil fields in Iraq (Mosul), which were then extremely important in supplying oil products to the entire Anglo-American military group in the Middle East and the Mediterranean. Many historians admitted that the tragedy of the Kurds was that in the interests of the USSR and the West (to a certain extent also the Arab states and Iran), the Kurds were seen as a kind of frightening force in the region or a bargaining chip in the conflict clashes between Turkish, Iranian and Iraqi rulers. However, none of those who used the Kurds for their own purposes, in fact, was not going to help them in creating their independent state. After all, neither in the West, nor in the countries of the Arab East, no one wanted the oil fields of Mosul to be on the territory of an independent Kurdish state and under its control. http://www.agentura.ru/press/about/jointprojects/stol/curds/spravka/?print=Y
            1. Kaa
              Kaa 23 March 2013 14: 15
              +3
              Quote: Kaa
              Kaa
              Just like in Kurdistan, the USSR relied on Israel.
              "On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly adopted Resolution 181 (II) on the partition of Palestine into two states - an Arab and a Jewish [10]. This decision of the UN General Assembly predetermined the emergence of the State of Israel. This resolution provided for the creation of a special UN commission to oversee the preparations for the formation of the Arab and Jewish states. In January 1948 this commission was formed and began to work. But from the very beginning it faced active opposition from the British administration. It should be noted that a significant contribution to this decision was made by the Soviet Union. Official position of the USSR was that “the partition plan, which provides for close economic cooperation between the two states, could put an end to this struggle [between Arabs and Jews]. Carrying out the partition would mean the end of the semi-colonial order in Palestine and the recognition that the Jewish and Arab populations in their own way political, economic and cultural times it has reached a level that allows each of them to create their own independent state. The section would also satisfy the legitimate aspirations of the Jewish people, who suffered so much during the existence of the Hitler regime ”[11]. However, this was just political rhetoric. Behind these lengthy statements there was a very specific goal - to create a bridgehead in Palestine for the spread of Soviet influence over the entire Middle East region and, perhaps, to put forward this direction of the USSR's international policy to leading positions in the sphere of foreign policy priorities of the Soviet state. A widely accepted point of view on the problem of Soviet assistance in the creation of the State of Israel and its subsequent recognition is that the USSR considered it necessary to secure a foothold in the Middle East, in which Israel could help it. Finding itself in a hostile Arab environment, which was supported by the great powers, primarily Great Britain, and also the United States, this state entity was supposed to become a kind of counterbalance to the Arab countries. Actually, the famous phrase attributed to J.V. Stalin is just being considered a confirmation of this policy of the USSR. However, is it that simple? Did the leadership of the USSR, which became one of the strongest powers in the post-war period, think in regional terms during the unleashing of the Cold War?
              Most likely, the calculation of the USSR was much wider. There is no doubt that after the Second World War, when the Soviet vision of the world was increasingly different from the American one, the Soviet state was faced with the task of expanding the circle of allies not only in Europe, but throughout the globe, and especially in border regions. The anti-Soviet sentiment warmed up in the USA could not but disturb the Soviet leadership. In addition, the United States made an attempt to attack the position of the USSR, supporting anti-communist forces in Greece, unveiling the Marshall Plan and starting to pursue a policy of forming anti-Soviet blocs in the Middle East. For the diplomacy of the USSR, it was quite obvious that British influence in the region was steadily declining, but this did not at all mean an automatic strengthening of Soviet positions there. It was more likely that the United States would take the place of Great Britain. Thus, the support of Israel could play into the hands of the USSR, since the existence of this state would weaken the possibility of the Arab countries in the anti-Soviet struggle. Http://www.idmedina.ru/books/materials/faizhanov/4/world_rijov.htm?
              1. Kaa
                Kaa 23 March 2013 14: 19
                +3
                Quote: Kaa
                Just like in Kurdistan, the USSR relied on Israel.

                And just like the Kurds, the Israelis were not against cooperating with Germany.
                "In January 1941, one important Zionist organization -" Fighters for the Freedom of Israel "(also known as Stern Gang, among whose members was the future Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Shamir) - turned to German diplomats in Beirut and proposed a military-political alliance with Germany The address, in particular, said: “Common interests can exist between the European new order based on the German concept and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people ... Cooperation is possible between New Germany and the renewed national Jewry. Establishment of the Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, sealed by a treaty with the German Reich will be in the interest of maintaining and strengthening the future German positions of power in the Middle East.
                Based on these findings, and provided that the government of the German Reich recognizes the national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement, its organization in Palestine offers to take an active part in the war on the side of Germany. This proposal may include military, political and information activities within Palestine, as well as certain organizational measures beyond its borders. Along with this, military training of Jewish men in Europe and the formation of military units under the leadership and command of the organization will be carried out. "These units will take part in military operations with the goal of conquering Palestine if such a front is opened." http://www.antiterror.kz/natcizm/news_2011-12-22-23-45-01-944.html
                Do not you think that it would be more logical in your article to compare not with Poland, but with another state ... two unsuccessful projects from the point of view of the USSR and their neighbors?
                1. zart_arn
                  zart_arn 23 March 2013 23: 34
                  +2
                  I have proposed an analogy with these peoples - they have made a noise ... sad
    2. marshes
      marshes 23 March 2013 10: 17
      +1
      Alibek, Good afternoon! Happy Nauryz тыtta Bolsyn!
      I have a question for you from which lands of the USSR did Kurds deport to us in Kazakhstan and Central Asia?
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 23 March 2013 10: 26
        +1
        Quote: marshes
        Alibek, Good afternoon! Happy Nauryz тыtta Bolsyn!

        And you happy holiday- Bayraminiz mubarek !!
        Quote: marshes
        I have a question for you from which lands of the USSR did Kurds deport to us in Kazakhstan and Central Asia?

        Honestly, I don’t know where in Kazakhstan, but here they lived for a long time !!
        For example, many Kurds lived on the border with Armenia and in Karabakh!
        Then they were from Turkey and moved from Iran!
        I remember a lot came after the Islamic revolution in Iran, some were later resettled, but I don’t know where!
        1. marshes
          marshes 23 March 2013 10: 33
          0
          Quote: Yarbay
          Honestly, I don’t know where in Kazakhstan, but here they lived for a long time !!

          I know about the Turks-Meskhetians, but there are no Kurds. Although they live nearby and do not quarrel among themselves, mainly in the foothills of the Almaty and Zhambyl regions, on the border with Kyrgyzstan. Recently, they are slowly moving from Kyrgyzstan to us.
          I just think those Kurds who live with us from Armenia have been resettled.
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay 23 March 2013 10: 53
            +3
            Quote: marshes
            I just think those Kurds who live with us from Armenia have been resettled.

            In 1923, during the time of the USSR, the formation of the Red Kurdistan in Azerbaijan was precisely on the border with Armenia; it lasted until the age of 29!
            In those days, from 60 to 80 thousand lived in Armenia!
            Apparently they were expelled, possibly to Kazakhstan, because in Yemen there are only Yezidi Kurds living and quite a few !!!
            Then I found a Kurdish source!
            http://kurds-cr.narod.ru/page9.html
          2. Mironk
            Mironk 25 March 2013 01: 19
            0
            marshes
            Read P. Sudoplatov's "Intelligence and the Kremlin" - there is detail about the settlement of Kurds in your area ...
      2. Kaa
        Kaa 23 March 2013 13: 43
        +6
        Quote: marshes
        from what lands of the USSR did Kurds deport to us in Kazakhstan and Central Asia

        A word to the Kurds themselves. "For Russia, Kurdistan has always been and remains a region of exceptional military and strategic interest .. So, during the hostilities on the Russian-Turkish fronts, Kurdish military units fought along with the Russian army against the Turkish Janissaries. Alliances were concluded between the commanders of Kurdish military organizations and the military leaders of the Russian army on the Caucasian front. One of the Kurdish commanders Ali-Ashrafag Shamshadinov was awarded the rank of general of the Russian army. The policies of the Ottoman and Persian authorities towards the Kurds were so cruel that many of them were forced to leave their homeland and move to safer places. The flow of Kurdish refugees rushed more and more to the territory of the Russian Empire, in particular to the Elizabethpol province, which included part of the land that had ceded from Persia to Russia under the Gulistan Peace Treaty of 1813. A significant number of Kurds found themselves within Russia when, according to the Turkmanchay Treaty of 1828, the territories of the Erivan and Nakhichevan Khanates ceded to it from Persia. In 1878, their number within Russia still increased due to the Kars and Ardagan Kurds. The Kurds took an active part in the establishment of Soviet power. In 1921-1923, a number of congresses and conferences of Kurds took place in Armenia. A lot of work was done to provide the Kurds with land. 18 villages were allocated to the Kurdish population for permanent residence. After the establishment of Soviet power in Transcaucasia, the Kurdistan district (“Red Kurdistan”) was formed on July 7, 1923 within the administrative territory of the Azerbaijan SSR. Geographically, it is located between Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia and includes four Kurdish regions where 98% of the population were Kurds. In 1929, the Azerbaijani authorities abolished “Red Kurdistan” and liquidated Kurdish schools and cultural centers. In order to assimilate the Kurds and change the national composition in the “Red Kurdistan”, an increase in the Azerbaijani population was encouraged, schools were taught only in the Azerbaijani language .. In addition, the transition to a policy of assimilation of Kurds in Azerbaijan coincided with the brutal suppression of the uprising of the Kurdish people in Turkey in the 20s and 30s. As a result, a significant part of the Kurds lost important national features. Kurdish intelligentsia dissolved among the Azerbaijani. The word "Kurd" in the minds of the dominant nation has become insulting. In her view, the Kurds are illiterate, backward people, nomads. Many representatives of the Kurdish intelligentsia were forced to abandon their nationality only because they could lose their jobs. About 50 thousand Kurds live in the Republic of Georgia. They live mainly in Tbilisi. The ancestors of their current generation moved to Georgia before the establishment of Soviet power. A few years after the liquidation of “Red Kurdistan” undeclared repressions against the Kurds of Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia began. Thousands of people were forcibly taken to Central Asia. The survivors were distributed in 110 districts of 14 regions of the republics of Central Asia and Kazakhstan. The second wave of deportation occurred in the war and post-war years. Kurds only appeared in Turkmenistan at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. Kurds of Central Asia preserved their language, customs and mores, and national culture. Currently, in the countries of this region, the number of Kurds living there exceeds 100 thousand. More than half of them are in Kazakhstan.
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay 23 March 2013 14: 23
          0
          Quote: Kaa
          Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia.

          You somehow from the link given by me strangely missed Armenia !!


          The Kurdish population of Armenia lives mainly in Aragats, Talinsky, Armavir (Oktemberyan), Echmiadzin, Artashat, Ararat (Vedinsky), Ashtarak, Kotayk, Tashir (Kalinin), Verdecis (Basar-hechar, and Sevan), in the cities of Yerevan, Kirovakan and Dilijan, 1989 census the number of Kurds in Armenia was 60 thousand people; but, according to our calculations, a more real figure is 80 thousand.
          The fact is that not even one percent is left!
          http://kurds-cr.narod.ru/page9.html
          1. Kaa
            Kaa 23 March 2013 16: 50
            +3
            Quote: Yarbay
            You somehow from the link given by me strangely missed Armenia !!

            Respected Yarbay! In some strange way you missed from my text "
            Quote: Kaa
            In 1921-1923, a number of congresses and conferences of Kurds took place in Armenia. A lot of work was done to provide the Kurds with land. 18 villages were allocated to the Kurdish population for permanent residence.
            And -
            Quote: Kaa
            A few years after the liquidation of “Red Kurdistan” undeclared repressions against the Kurds of Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia.

            I flatter myself with the hope that you occasionally read my comments, and, perhaps, you could have noticed that I am with a certain scrupulous attitude to the long-standing interethnic and inter-confessional conflicts. From the same link (and from many other, more controversial sources), I also did not cite some of the information concerning the Kurds, Turkey and Azerbaijan, as well as some of the praises addressed to Georgia and Armenia, so do not accuse me of bias. In addition, 20 years ago, I often talked with the Syrian Kurds ... I have my own opinion on this matter ... you can deal with them, but ... "I would not turn my back in the bath to them" - an attempt at humor laughing
            1. Yarbay
              Yarbay 23 March 2013 16: 56
              0
              Quote: Kaa
              I flatter myself with the hope that you occasionally read my comments, and, probably, you might have noticed that I treat with certain scrupulousness the long-standing interethnic and inter-confessional conflicts.

              I know you well and respect deeply !!!
              I just remembered CT in 89-90 years !!)))
              There are only three republics in exile and you just didn’t write about the unloved one)))))))))))))
              Here and brother suspected of treason))))))))))
        2. Yarbay
          Yarbay 23 March 2013 14: 26
          +2
          Quote: Kaa
          A significant number of Kurds found themselves within Russia when, according to the Turkmanchay Treaty of 1828, the territories of the Erivan and Nakhichevan Khanates ceded to it from Persia.


          Some of the settlers settled at the foot of Mount Aragats (Erivan province) and, along with cattle breeding, began to engage in agriculture
          http://kurds-cr.narod.ru/page9.html
    3. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 23 March 2013 10: 44
      +3
      Yarbay "None of the regional players need * Kurdistan *!"
      You are right, no one needs extra hemorrhoids. But if it is promoted, then this Kurdish factor will, over time, have a stronger effect on the general situation in the region.
      And to compare Kurdistan with Poland ... hehe somehow it did not occur to me.
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 23 March 2013 11: 06
        0
        Quote: Nagaibak
        But if it is promoted, then this Kurdish factor will, over time, have a stronger effect on the general situation in the region.

        unconditionally !!
        I think everyone puzzles how to continue to live with such * happiness *?)))
        There are very large forces involved!
        Here they ignored one news !!
        About a month ago, Iraq pulled troops to the borders with Kurdish autanomy and there were even clashes and then a fatwa of one of Iraq’s most respected ayatollahs appeared that would not be considered a martyr who died in the war with Iraqi Kurds !!
        Allegedly, he answered a letter from the father of one of the soldiers, and this message was instantly promoted in Iraq and in the Arab countries!
        1. atalef
          atalef 23 March 2013 14: 54
          0
          Quote: Yarbay
          unconditionally !!

          Hey . Alibek. !!!!
          The day before yesterday, Ozhelan announced the proposal of the Red Army to lay down their arms and go to the political dialogue. I suspect that in the near future he will receive a pardon and the Kurdish issue will be resolved quite quickly in the light of events in Syria. I think the future autonomy of the Kurds will be located mostly in Syria. To bring the Kurds out from under Assad is Turkey’s task. Yesterday, Izraml apologized to Turkey for Marmara, it’s not just like that, Netanyahu (after meeting with Obama (took this step, 100% knowing that people don’t understand it) is not just that .. Something is brewing ..
          Erdogan the other day announced a complete restoration of relations with Israel, then Odzholan, then it’s kind of like using chemical weapons in Syria.
          My conclusion . Assad is soon over, a partial occupation of Syria is being prepared with the capture and control of chemical arsenals.
          1. ayyildiz
            ayyildiz 23 March 2013 15: 05
            +3
            There was no enmity between us, just temporary disagreements!
            1. atalef
              atalef 23 March 2013 15: 32
              +3
              Quote: ayyildiz
              There was no enmity between us, just temporary disagreements!

              I think so too. Firewood was broken on both sides and I dmayu. that Netanyahu did the right thing in general. Nowadays, you need to be not only right, but also smart. Reason should prevail over feelings and an alliance with Turkey, for us it is more important than some personal ambitions of 9 Turkey is a very important player in B, C, by the way) By the way, Erdogan also hope I understood something. Preparing something cardinal and not seeing it is only blind.
              1. ayyildiz
                ayyildiz 23 March 2013 15: 38
                +2
                Erdogan also apologized, as I understand it, for equating Zionism with the Nazis!
          2. Yarbay
            Yarbay 23 March 2013 15: 09
            +1
            Quote: atalef
            I suspect that in the near future he will receive a pardon and the Kurdish issue will be resolved pretty quickly in the light of the events in Syria
            Hi Sanya!
            Do not dare!
            There will be a timeout !!
            This has already happened!
            Quote: atalef
            . Yesterday, Izraml apologized to Turkey for Marmara, it’s not just that, Netanyahu (after meeting with Obama (took this step, 100% knowing that people don’t understand it) is not just that. Something is brewing.
            Of course, not just like that, they demanded it too aggressively in Turkey and for a long time it was Netanyahu who did not agree !!
            It seems to me they are preparing hemorrhoids to Iran!
          3. Mironk
            Mironk 25 March 2013 01: 33
            0
            Barack Obama was able to clearly demonstrate to everyone that his two main allies in the region, having forgotten past grievances, are ready for a constructive dialogue and, what the hell is not joking, joint actions. And your conclusion, it seems to me, is very likely, a colleague.
      2. Kaa
        Kaa 23 March 2013 17: 06
        +2
        Quote: Nagaibak
        And to compare Kurdistan with Poland ... hehe somehow it never occurred to me
        Looking from Ukraine, the comparison of Kurds not with the Poles, but with their neighbors from Western Ukraine is more visible. The population of Lviv, Ternopil, Ivano-Frankivsk, Volyn, Transcarpathian, Chernivtsi regions, as well as the Kurds, in ancient times had their statehood - the Galician-Volyn principality, then the kingdom. As a result of centuries of intertwining, the population, initially not different from its eastern neighbors, was distributed in the sphere of influence of Lithuania, Poland, Wallachia, Hungary, then the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Russia and Romania ... a long history, dozens of volumes were written. As a result, they were constantly used, like the Kurds, in the struggle either against Russia, then against Austria-Hungary, then against Poland, Czechoslovakia, the USSR. The main players are the same as with the Kurds and with the Israelis - England, Germany, the USSR, the USA. What will the creation of Kurdistan lead to - one can look approximately towards Ukraine - not limited to autonomy within their traditional region of residence, they will promote their ideology in neighboring territories ... so Turkey, in my opinion, needs to seriously think about what it can lead to Kurdistan autonomy within the borders of modern Turkey ...
        1. ayyildiz
          ayyildiz 23 March 2013 17: 10
          +4
          Quote: Kaa
          just like the Kurds, in ancient times they had their own statehood

          And when the Kurds did not have their own state, do not confuse the people!
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay 23 March 2013 17: 19
            +1
            Quote: ayyildiz
            And when the Kurds did not have their own state, do not confuse the people!

            everything flows, everything changes!
            In vain you are so dismissive of this opportunity!
          2. Kaa
            Kaa 23 March 2013 17: 23
            0
            Quote: ayyildiz
            Nor when the Kurds of their state
            This is your opinion, I treat him with respect, but there are others ... In particular, we are talking about the Median and Parthian kingdoms: "Scientists related to the history of South Transcaucasia are absolutely unanimous: the ancient inhabitants of Nakhichevan were the mars (the Medes ), but at the same time they do not want to see Kurds behind the Mars.It is also true that, conducting fierce disputes over Nakhichevan and the region around it, Armenian and Azerbaijani scientists are silent about the ethnicity of the Mars (Medes) and stubbornly impose on everyone the idea of ​​the later assimilation of the Mars by the Armenian or a Turkic ethnos. Some of them even try to see the Mari as proto-Turks or proto-Armenians. Unfortunately, many scientists of the former Soviet Union, for ideological reasons or out of a sense of solidarity with their colleagues in Azerbaijan and Armenia, also passed over in silence the ethnicity of the Mari. at best, recognizing their “Iranian language.” To say that all these scholars were mistaken about ethnicitymars to the Kurds, it would be a great injustice. The explanation is simple - otherwise, the entire history of South Transcaucasia would have to be rewritten. And another reason - the historical truth did not meet the interests of the USSR, which, continuing the policy of the Russian Empire, under the pretext of annexing the "Azerbaijani" and "Armenian" lands, hatched plans to further expand its borders. And in this matter, the stumbling block was the Kurds, the silence of the ancient history of which was in the interests of all peoples and states inhabiting the region, between which Kurdistan was divided. I. Chopin writes that “the inhabitants of the Armenian region, who have lived in it from time immemorial, are divided into two roots: Armenians and Kurdians” (1-525). But at the same time, he naturally passes the palm on the issue of autochthonousness to the Kurds: “The Kurds (ancient Kurduks) make up a primitive tribe found by Hayk in the countries he occupied under the Araks; they are probably of the same tribe to the ancient Parthians, which even the Romans themselves are unable to cope with! " He further writes that “... one cannot but recognize the Kurds as the oldest autochthons of the country; these are the same Kurduks (Kardukhs - LM), about whom Xenophon narrates in Anabasis (“The March of 10 thousand Greeks”), and there is no doubt that they belong to the common Sanskrit root ”(1-526). And, finally, touching upon this topic, he writes: "Of the indigenous, native dialects, the most ancient, primitive must be Kurdish, used by the tribes inhabiting the country entrusted from the Assyrian kings to the rule of father Gaik-Torgom2 in the present Arak valley and in the neighboring regions" (1-906). If I. Chopin also takes the Kurds for the autochthonous population of Nakhichevan and the surrounding territories, then under what name would they be known to ancient sources, if not under the "Mara-Medes"? We find a mention of maras in Herodotus (VII, 79), Xenophon (Anabasis, IV, 3, 4), Strabo (XI, 13), Tacitus (Annals, XIV, 23) http://www.ezdixane.ru/content / view / 576 /
            1. ayyildiz
              ayyildiz 23 March 2013 18: 25
              +1
              Quote: Kaa
              .In particular, we are talking about the Medes and Parthian kingdoms


              There is no consensus that they come from them!
        2. Yarbay
          Yarbay 23 March 2013 17: 18
          0
          Quote: Kaa
          they will promote their ideology in neighboring territories ... so Turkey, in my opinion, needs to seriously think about what the autonomy of Kurdistan within the borders of modern Turkey can lead to ...

          Here you are right !!
          And in Turkey, many understand this!
          From the very beginning, Turkey opposed this even received verbal guarantees from the US that this would not happen!
          But the fact of the matter is that most of the political elite depend on the USA!
  • 12mai2202
    12mai2202 23 March 2013 10: 04
    0
    very interesting article
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz 23 March 2013 10: 28
      +2
      Yes, it will not be Kurdistan that will instantly unite Turks, Arabs and Shiites of the Persians. Indeed, this saying: The enemy of my enemy is my two-edged sword. Neither Arabs nor Persians nor Turks will agree to the equal of a significant part of their country, and besides good oil fields
      1. FC SKIF
        23 March 2013 10: 47
        0
        And I didn’t write that they will succeed. On the contrary, I am against a lot of blood, and when the boundaries change, a lot is shed.
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 23 March 2013 10: 37
    +1
    Quote: Yeraz

    Yes, it will not be Kurdistan that will instantly unite Turks, Arabs and Shiites of the Persians. Indeed, this saying: The enemy of my enemy is my two-edged sword. Neither Arabs nor Persians nor Turks will agree to the equal of a significant part of their country, and besides good oil fields

    Ali, and no one is asking them !!!
    Remember how Turkey and Iran were outraged and constantly talking about the fact that they would not allow the creation of a Kurdish entity in Iraq !!
    And that officially there is a Kurdish autonomous region already with its army, police, customs! Independently conclude agreements and is already a de facto separate state !! By the way, the Peshmerge had Israeli and American military instructors !!
    And now Turkey and Iran do not mind!
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz 23 March 2013 10: 55
      0
      Quote: Yarbay
      Ali, and no one is asking them !!!
      Remember how Turkey and Iran were outraged and constantly talking about the fact that they would not allow the creation of a Kurdish entity in Iraq !!
      And that officially there is a Kurdish autonomous region already with its army, police, customs! Independently conclude agreements and is already a de facto separate state !! By the way, the Peshmerge had Israeli and American military instructors !!
      And now Turkey and Iran do not mind!

      Alibek, but still he, as a state, has not yet been recognized by anyone and what will be unknown there as well. A civil war can easily begin in Iraq and this autonomy will be stalled.
      And why aren’t they especially angry now, because the Turks there are awesome grandmothers who have cheap oil and all the construction tenders in the hands of the Turks.

      I just do not agree with the author that the Kurdish state will gain independence within the boundaries specified in the article. The Turks and Persians can apply the model of creating a state in Iraq and tell their Kurds that they have an independent state bring it down there, that you’ll self-determine several times. Yes, and it will be possible to evict the Kurds to this state in case of anything.
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 23 March 2013 11: 23
        +4
        Quote: Yeraz
        I simply do not agree with the author that the Kurdish state will gain independence within the boundaries indicated in the article.

        Well it is clear!!
        it’s already like that !!
        It seems to me that the author wanted to show that the geography of possible conflicts can be great!
        Honestly, I also understood how you first understood, but after the answers of the author I changed my mind!
        and about the blame from the country, it is if the United States and Israel support the Kurds in their unwillingness to blame, then those who tell them this will be upset!
        1. Yeraz
          Yeraz 23 March 2013 11: 46
          +2
          Quote: Yarbay
          Well it is clear!!
          it’s already like that !!
          It seems to me that the author wanted to show that the geography of possible conflicts can be great!
          Honestly, I also understood how you first understood, but after the answers of the author I changed my mind!
          and about the blame from the country, it is if the United States and Israel support the Kurds in their unwillingness to blame, then those who tell them this will be upset!

          The combination is very complex, and besides, you yourself know perfectly well the Kurds are not very homogeneous. But one thing is for sure is the CHAOS and the regional players will weaken.
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay 23 March 2013 11: 57
            +1
            Quote: Yeraz
            But one thing is certain will be CHAOS and regional players will weaken.

            Apparently, salt is in this and most importantly the process will be long-term !!
        2. FC SKIF
          23 March 2013 13: 17
          +2
          Any change in boundaries is blood. There are thoughts to write about the "great Circassia". Nasty little thoughts wander around among Russophobes to redraw the border in the North Caucasus.
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 23 March 2013 10: 41
    +2
    *** If my thoughts are correct, Ankara can be surrendered at any time. *** -This issue has long been resolved !!
    Turkish military is well aware that after Syria begin in Turkey!
    1. FC SKIF
      23 March 2013 10: 48
      0
      From this place in more detail please. I do not have such data.
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 23 March 2013 11: 17
        +3
        Quote: FC Skif
        From this place in more detail please. I do not have such data.

        in front of the second Iraqi company, I personally watched on Turkish TV an interview of a Turkish general, a former head of the center for strategic research of the Turkish General Staff !! When he asked about the goals of the American company, he clearly stated that according to intelligence and long-term analysis, the goal is to divide Iraq into three parts, the creation of a Kurdish state, Sunni and Shiite! Try to do the same in Syria !!
        As soon as the Kurdish state becomes independent, they will split up Turkey and that the Turkish military leadership is well aware of this !!
        He emphasized that variations on the theme are possible, but this is a common task!
        Then for me his words seemed utopian, but over time they look more and more realistic!
        1. FC SKIF
          23 March 2013 11: 24
          +1
          How interesting. This is another confirmation of my assumptions.
        2. ayyildiz
          ayyildiz 23 March 2013 11: 39
          +2
          Quote: Yarbay
          As soon as the Kurdish state becomes independent, they will split up Turkey and that the Turkish military leadership is well aware of this !!


          The gut is thin, they forget that there are about 3 million Turkmens living in Mosul and Kerkuk who want to join Turkey, And even in the west of Turkey there are more Kurds than in the south east, as they are with them, It is unlikely that people will agree that they live in the west after such turns!
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay 23 March 2013 11: 52
            +3
            Quote: ayyildiz
            Gut

            the question is not that !!
            There are such plans, but to get it or not depends on how to prepare for this in Turkey!
            Unfortunately in Turkey, among politicians there is a very large 5 convoy of Americans and I am not sure that these politicians will not betray at a crucial moment !!
            I think these threats are very serious!
            Quote: ayyildiz
            they don’t forget that there are about 3 million Turkmens living in Mosul and Kerkuk who want to join Turkey, And even more in the west of Turkey there are more Kurds than in the south east, as they are with them, It is unlikely that people will agree that they live in the west after turns!
            As for the Turkman, in principle, the Kurds crushed them, about the Kurds of Turkey, understand that they respect, they don’t want a wonderful peaceful life !!
            The question is what exactly do they want a long bloody war, where the Kurds are a kind of bargaining chip and cannon fodder!
            1. ayyildiz
              ayyildiz 23 March 2013 12: 07
              0
              Quote: Yarbay
              Unfortunately in Turkey, among politicians there is a very large 5 convoy of Americans and I am not sure that these politicians will not betray at a crucial moment !!


              We are a patient people! But until one time! Many Kurds do not want to live in areas where Kurds live and move to the Turks! All crimes they mostly commit in Turkey! With one word KYRO!
              For me, it’s empty everyone will be expelled from the west to exterminate each other in the south east!
        3. smile
          smile 23 March 2013 16: 19
          +2
          Yarbay
          Hello! I, too, have repeatedly read the statements of fairly high-ranking security officials, both Turkish and ours, that the United States will eventually try to dismember Turkey ... but if the Turkish leadership is convinced of this, why is Turkey the rear base for those who vomit in shreds Syria? Inexplicably, this is the same as putting a mine under your ass.
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay 24 March 2013 11: 41
            0
            Quote: smile
            Turkey is the rear base for those who tear to shreds Syria? Inexplicably, this is the same as putting a mine under your ass.

            I’m sure that all the economic successes of Turkey in recent years have not fallen from the sky, but with the help of the USA and Erdogan, the US project has happened !! Therefore, the USA acts as it should! In Turkey, many politicians are tied to the USA!
            The military would have thrown off Erdogan a long time ago, but there is no go-ahead from the USA and the West to support them !! And Erdogan has transplanted almost the entire generals, because he is sure that while he does what the amers say he will not dare touch him!

            Secondly, I wrote about this at the root of Turkey’s current support for bandits in Syria in the fact that for many years Syria supported Kurdish fighters from the PKK !! Therefore, the people in Turkey therefore do not put pressure on the government !!
            They don’t like Asadov there!
  • avt
    avt 23 March 2013 10: 46
    +1
    Quote: Yeraz
    .No Arabs, nor the Persians, much less the Turks will not agree to the equal of a significant part of their country, and besides, with good oil fields

    And actually, who will ask their consent? The process is launched, in fact, territories completely controlled by Kurds with the beginnings of state power already exist in Iraq and Syria. The only question is whether there will be an attack on Iran with the subsequent involvement of the Turks in the conflict or postponed until later. During the second war in the Gulf, the Turkish leadership was smart enough not to flattery the harlot. Well, as now request while we can only guess, but by the way they work in Syria, we can safely say that the mind has not increased. In general, with the promotion, little will not seem to anyone in the region. Peoples wash their faces in a child’s way. And the chocolate will be the US Federal Reserve.
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz 23 March 2013 11: 07
      +1
      Quote: avt
      And actually, who will ask their consent? The process is launched, in fact, territories completely controlled by Kurds with the beginnings of state power already exist in Iraq and Syria. The only question is whether there will be an attack on Iran with the subsequent involvement of the Turks in the conflict or postponed until later. During the second war in the Gulf, the Turkish leadership was smart enough not to flattery the harlot. Well, as of now we can only guess, but by the way they work in Syria, we can safely say that the mind has not increased. In general, with the promotion, little will not seem to anyone in the region. Peoples wash their faces in a child’s way. And the chocolate will be the US Federal Reserve


      Yes, no one will ask clearly, but the Kurdish state will not be able to survive within the boundaries specified in the article, it will be in one hundred percent blockade with enemies. Israel has an extended sea border. And then a state is created that borders on all and the rights of all are infringed upon by their enemies. And Sunni and Shiite Arabs, Turks and Persians, and even Azerbaijanis, because in Iran some areas that want to take Kurds belong to Azerbaijanis. Yes, within the borders of Iraqi Kurdistan, well, the maximum if there are amers and Israel will give Turkey incredible guarantees within the borders of Syria, Iraq and Iran, so that Kurdistan from Turkey would have access to the world. But in conditions of total confrontation with everyone it is unlikely.
      1. avt
        avt 23 March 2013 11: 32
        +2
        Quote: Yeraz
        But in conditions of total confrontation with all, it is unlikely.

        Sorry, but this is somewhat naive. request You are considering in the context that events will develop, as it were, in a natural way, self-propelled. BUT so no new state was created, including Israel. In the region, the current states and borders are practically cut by the "leading" powers following the results of the two world wars. And if you look at the analytical materials of the Angles after the First World War and the Amers on the region, you will be unpleasantly surprised at a certain similarity with the real state of affairs. Confirmation is the current western border of Russia FULLY corresponding to the idea of ​​Wilson's advisor, Texas Colonel Hauser after World War I. Well, the question of how to survive or live for the population of the newly formed states worries their creators in the last place, the example of Kosovo, Serbia, Libya, Sudan, Darfur.
        1. Yeraz
          Yeraz 23 March 2013 11: 43
          +6
          Quote: avt
          Sorry, but this is somewhat naive. You are considering in the context of the fact that events will develop, as it were, in a natural way, self-propelled. BUT so no new state was created, including Israel. In the region, the current states and borders are practically cut by the "leading" powers following the results of the two world wars. And if you look at the analytical materials of amers on the region, you will be unpleasantly surprised at a certain similarity with the real state of affairs. Confirmation is the current western border of Russia, which is COMPLETELY corresponding to the adviser's idea Wilson, Texas Colonel Hauser after World War I. Well, the question of how to survive or live for the population of newly formed states worries their creators in the last place, the example of Kosovo, Serbia, Libya, Sudan, Darfur


          Well, if you mean the theory of what to create and not a fact for a long time, but at the same time undermine for a long time and weaken the strength of the leading players in the region, so that they fall under the great power of amers, well, in principle, yes, also an option. But anyway, everything will turn out , damn it we can assume, and what will be on the output winked
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay 23 March 2013 11: 54
            0
            Quote: Yeraz
            Well, if you mean the theory of what to create and not for a long time, but at the same time to undermine for a long time and weaken the strength of the leading players in the region so that they fall under the great power of the Amers, well, in principle, yes, also an option.

            done right !!
      2. Yarbay
        Yarbay 23 March 2013 11: 45
        +2
        Quote: Yeraz
        Yes, clearly no one will ask, but the Kurdish state cannot survive within the boundaries specified in the article, it will be in one hundred percent blockade with enemies

        In principle, this seems to be the idea !!
        Many millions of well-armed and trained Kurds will fight the Arabs, the Arabs will not be up to Israel!
        In Iraq, they have access to the sea, and the US has a fleet !!
  • Anti
    Anti 23 March 2013 10: 57
    -1
    The creation of a Kurdish state is just an instrument of pressure on Turkey from the west. Turkey has only one way out: declare war on Russia and immediately surrender to become the Russian province
    winked
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz 23 March 2013 11: 23
      +3
      Quote: Anti
      The creation of the Kurdish state is just an instrument of pressure on Turkey from the west. Turkey has only one way out: declare war on Russia and immediately surrender to become the Russian province

      Ha anti, I hope this is a joke)) With the receipt of Turkey, you will receive the Kurds as a bonus, and I still do not think that the Turks will agree with this))) And having such difficulties in the small northern Caucasus as controlling almost 80 million Turkey))

      Well, okay, I think you joked))
      1. Anti
        Anti 23 March 2013 12: 09
        0
        Well, of course, the joke is the second part of the post, although the bonus could be a tool for controlling 80 millions. wink
        1. ayyildiz
          ayyildiz 23 March 2013 12: 16
          0
          Quote: Anti
          Well, of course, the joke is the second part of the post, although the bonus could be a tool for controlling 80 millions. wink


          And why not a turn? I'm joking too!
          It’s as if Russia lacks its problems!
      2. Orik
        Orik 23 March 2013 12: 57
        +2
        What are the jokes here "Thought tells me that many events will happen: the Russians will occupy Turkey, Turkey will disappear from the map, because 1/3 of the Turks will become Christians, 1/3 will die and 1/3 will go to Mesopotamia.
        The Middle East will become the scene of wars in which Russians will take part. A lot of blood will be shed, and even the Chinese will cross the Euphrates River, having 200.000.000 army, and reach Jerusalem. A characteristic sign that these events are approaching will be the destruction of the Omar mosque, since its destruction will mean the beginning of work on the reconstruction of the temple of Solomon, which was built on that spot.
        In Constantinople there will be a great war between Russians and Europeans, and a lot of blood will be shed.
        When you hear that the Turks block the waters of the Euphrates with a dam and use them for irrigation, then know that we have already entered the preparation of that great war and thus the way is being prepared for the two hundred million army from the sunrises, as Revelation says. "
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay 23 March 2013 13: 03
          -1
          Quote: Orik
          What are the jokes here "Thought tells me that many events will happen: the Russians will occupy Turkey, Turkey will disappear from the map, because 1/3 of the Turks will become Christians, 1/3 will die and 1/3 will go to Mesopotamia.

          again the elders' prophecies))))) ??
          Muslims have similar ones. that 1/3 Muslims will run away in the battle, 1/3 will die and 1/3 will win !!
          all that you wrote is the misrepresented words of the Prophet of Muslims Muhammad (pbuh)
          1. Orik
            Orik 23 March 2013 13: 56
            +1
            The one who laughs last laughs well. Mohamed, did not this tell you?
        2. ayyildiz
          ayyildiz 23 March 2013 15: 06
          +1
          I don’t even want to answer such fantasies!
        3. smile
          smile 23 March 2013 16: 34
          +1
          Orik
          I don’t understand, is that humor so peculiar? Who in their right mind can believe that Russia will move to conquer Turkey, even if it did not do so when it had the opportunity? And the hell to the Chinese Jerusalem? Also drive the Jews? :)))
          I propose to urgently shoot all hydrologists in the vicinity of Efrat, as provocateurs of the Apocalypse ... you can at the same time eliminate all the builders - just in case:))) ... I always suspected Turkish builders of filing the foundations of the Universe ..... :))))
          1. Orik
            Orik 23 March 2013 19: 36
            +2
            This "humorist" predicted the collapse of the USSR:
            “Once Mr. DK visited the elder Paisius. At that time, the USSR was a strong and powerful power, and no one could even suggest that it could collapse (it was still in the era of Brezhnev).
            By the way, the elder said to him:
            - You will see that soon the USSR will fall apart.
            Mr D. objected:
            “But such a powerful power, geronda, who will be able to break up?” And they dare not touch his fingernail.
            - You will see!
            The elder predicted that the collapse of the USSR will be witnessed by Mr. D. himself, despite his advanced age. "

            Therefore, decide for yourself, time will tell who is right and who is not. Only in any situation, it seems there will be no laughing matter.
          2. hrych
            hrych 23 March 2013 21: 12
            +3
            Well, the Chinese do not need Jerusalem as such, but, oddly enough, in these prophecies there is logic when there will be a sea blockade of China that is already being talked about openly, so as not to die from the lack of fuel, 80% of which comes from B. Vostok, to the Chinese you’ll have to take your only trump card - numerous ground forces, though increasing them from 2 million, well, up to 10 and following the only possible way — the V. Silk Road through the frail Central Asians and take control of the B. Vostok well. Another thing is that we seem to be witnesses to the truly creation of Great Israel from the Mediterranean Sea to Mesopotamia and from the Red Sea to the Euphrates. The 10-agorot coin, i.e., 100 shekels with the corresponding card, has already been minted, and formidable neighbors have been turned into liquid manure.

            The world financial pyramid has already gone downhill. Who will be blamed? Of course the Jews. Where to put them? To Great Israel. Everything is logical.
            On Bl. There will soon be Great Kudistan, Great Israel, possibly Great Azerbaijan ..
            1. Arkan
              Arkan 24 March 2013 19: 56
              +2
              Quote: hrych
              Well, the Chinese do not need Jerusalem as such, but, oddly enough, in these prophecies there is logic when there will be a sea blockade of China that is already being talked about openly, so as not to die from the lack of fuel, 80% of which comes from B. Vostok, to the Chinese will have to take your only trump card - numerous ground forces, although increasing them from 2 million, well, up to 10

              In this part, I completely agree with you. Russia (which has neither the human nor the political capabilities of the USSR in the Middle East) has two lines of conduct in case of a possible war: 1) Destroy the oil-producing areas of the Middle East; 2) Help China take control of these areas ( this is vital for China without any war, given the amount of energy that the economies of China and India plan to consume in the near future (in -10 -15 years).
              Quote: hrych
              Another thing is that we seem to be witnesses to the truly creation of Great Israel from the Mediterranean Sea to Mesopotamia and from the Red Sea to the Euphrates. The 10-agorot coin, i.e., 100 shekels with the corresponding card, has already been minted, and formidable neighbors have been turned into liquid manure.

              The Chinese are unlikely to agree with this, everything is simple for them - either assimilation or utilization (and Jews assimilate very poorly) laughing .
  • ayyildiz
    ayyildiz 23 March 2013 11: 19
    +1
    Quote: Anti
    The creation of a Kurdish state is just an instrument of pressure on Turkey from the west. Turkey has only one way out: declare war on Russia and immediately surrender to become the Russian province
    winked


    How witty you are, As the Turks could not have guessed before!
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz 23 March 2013 11: 25
      +1
      Quote: ayyildiz
      How witty you are, As the Turks could not have guessed before!

      Merheba Ayyyldyz. Is this not Ocalan on the rope?
      1. ayyildiz
        ayyildiz 23 March 2013 11: 31
        +2
        Bayramin mubarek olsun! It is he, with fashionable pants!
        1. Yeraz
          Yeraz 23 March 2013 11: 39
          -1
          Quote: ayyildiz
          Bayramin mubarek olsun! It is he, with fashionable pants!

          Sennen bele qardas! Hah, I am very angry with the leaders of the PKK, who are portrayed in the Valley of the Wolves, are they interesting, or is the director portraying them like that?
          Especially how they pronounce the word Bashkhanym)))) To how X comes out))
          1. ayyildiz
            ayyildiz 23 March 2013 11: 54
            +1
            With one word, the cave people!
          2. Yarbay
            Yarbay 23 March 2013 11: 55
            +1
            Quote: Yeraz
            Especially how they pronounce the word Bashkhanym)))) To how X comes out))

            made laugh))))))))))
            1. Yeraz
              Yeraz 23 March 2013 12: 03
              -1
              Quote: Yarbay
              made laugh))))))))))

              I advise you to look at the series where there is a Kurd Muro, who is responsible for the affairs of the PKK in the city, it’s finally hilarious)) But there is good-natured, but his expressions are ala communist with a Kurdish element, you can wallow under the table))
              1. Yarbay
                Yarbay 23 March 2013 12: 06
                0
                Quote: Yeraz
                Kurd Muro


                He was already soaked under the script))))))
                I lost interest in the film, although there Zaza a little humor but not that)))))
                Muro-actor created a super image)))))))
                1. Yeraz
                  Yeraz 23 March 2013 12: 24
                  0
                  Quote: Yarbay
                  He was already soaked under the script))))))
                  I lost interest in the film, although there Zaza a little humor but not that)))))
                  Muro-actor created a super image)))))))

                  Yes, I know, then they even shot a feature film about him and his 2 henchmen.
                  So the whole movie is already ending the last season.
                  I’m sitting right now watching the last series. There, by the way, they are discussing with Amers and Israel that it’s time to establish an attitude)))
    2. Anti
      Anti 24 March 2013 12: 20
      +1
      Dreams, dreams, where is your sweetness? I'm about a photo montage proudly put on display wassat
  • OlegYugan
    OlegYugan 23 March 2013 11: 34
    +2
    Ocalan congratulated “all fraternal ethnic groups” living in Turkey on the “holiday of peace” and urged PKK militants to disarm and leave the country
    - Does anyone say outside of Turkey is WHERE ??
    For reformation ?? To Iraq or Iran, or maybe Syria?
    Quote: FC Skif
    FC Skiff
    All Arabs are enemies of Israel - a fact. Arab countries oppress Kurds - fact. The enemy of my enemy is my friend - an Eastern saying. What are you saying? For your reference - The difference in the language of the Jews between the Palestinians is about the same as between the Russians and Ukrainians.
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay 23 March 2013 11: 37
      -1
      Quote: OlegYugan
      For your reference - The difference in the language of the Jews between the Palestinians is about the same as between the Russians and Ukrainians.

      so what, although this is not so !!
      this does not prevent them from hating each other fiercely, which of course is unfortunate!
    2. FC SKIF
      23 March 2013 13: 24
      +3
      Since biblical times they cannot stand each other. The fact that the peoples are kindred is a fact. But they have different religions - a reason for hatred. I described something similar in the article "Why Russia Should Be Orthodox".
  • Yeraz
    Yeraz 23 March 2013 11: 56
    +3
    By the way, is it not by chance that amid the peace talks between the Turkish authorities and the PKK and Ocalan’s appeal to lay down their arms, Israel asked Turkey for forgiveness?
    And given that Israel provided assistance to the PKK, maybe someone needs a stable Turkey in the near future, just for what all of a sudden? winked
    1. Arkan
      Arkan 23 March 2013 12: 20
      +1
      Quote: Yeraz
      And given that Israel provided assistance to the PKK, maybe someone needs a stable Turkey in the near future, just for what all of a sudden?

      Good day! Given the events of recent years - most likely you are right!
      1. Yeraz
        Yeraz 23 March 2013 12: 38
        +3
        Quote: Arkan
        Good day! Given the events of recent years - most likely you are right!

        Good. Our region will glow.
        1. Arkan
          Arkan 23 March 2013 12: 46
          +3
          Quote: Yeraz
          . Will burn our region

          I sincerely hope that not one of the former republics of the Soviet Union will suffer!
          1. Yeraz
            Yeraz 23 March 2013 13: 08
            0
            Quote: Arkan
            I sincerely hope that not one of the former republics of the Soviet Union will suffer!

            But the situation is going to this. Although I would not mind if specifically one CIS country suffered a lot. But this is from my bell tower, I think you understand what I mean))
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 23 March 2013 12: 04
    0
    Quote: Yeraz

    By the way, is it not by chance that amid the peace talks between the Turkish authorities and the PKK and Ocalan’s appeal to lay down their arms, Israel asked Turkey for forgiveness?

    Of course it is no coincidence !!
    Erdogan Amers need to be saved !!
    Quote: Yeraz
    And given that Israel provided assistance to the PKK, maybe someone needs a stable Turkey in the near future, just for what all of a sudden?

    But the Israeli movement towards Turkey and, in fact, the fulfillment of the requirements of Turkey, which were rejected by the cabinet of the current prime minister for 2 years, I think, of course, will alert Iran and the Iran issue is 100 percent!
  • Corsair5912
    Corsair5912 23 March 2013 12: 13
    +2
    The Poles and Kurds are similar in that neither of them managed to create their own state under the most favorable conditions for 1000 years.
    Modern Poland was created not by the Poles, but by Stalin.
    The Kurds were not lucky, Stalin was not interested in them.
    1. Arkan
      Arkan 23 March 2013 12: 29
      0
      Quote: Corsair5912
      The Poles and Kurds are similar in that neither of them managed to create their own state under the most favorable conditions for 1000 years.

      Not quite right - Poland has a very rich history, and they could very well become the leaders of the Slavic world, but history decided differently ...
      Quote: Corsair5912
      The Kurds were not lucky, Stalin was not interested in them.

      Also not true. During WWII, Stalin created Kurdistan (Mukrinsky Kurdistan), as an additional buffer between Germany and Middle Eastern oil (in case the Germans broke through the Caucasus).
  • Anti
    Anti 23 March 2013 12: 18
    +3
    Some here wrote about the steepness of the Turkish special forces and special services, why then they can not solve the problem of the CRC. lol
    1. ayyildiz
      ayyildiz 23 March 2013 12: 25
      -4
      Quote: Anti
      Some here wrote about the steepness of the Turkish special forces and special services, why then they can not solve the problem of the CRC


      Have you been able to decide completely in Chechnya and Dagestan?

      Do you know what it means to fight in the mountains?
      1. Anti
        Anti 23 March 2013 12: 36
        +2
        The problem is being solved successfully, by the way, during the solution, Turkish mercenaries were also found in considerable numbers. In the mountains it is not easy but possible.
        1. ayyildiz
          ayyildiz 23 March 2013 12: 41
          -4
          Quote: Anti
          The problem is being solved successfully, by the way, during the solution, Turkish mercenaries were also found in considerable numbers. In the mountains it is not easy but possible.


          DNA analysis must be done with these Turks, whether they are Turks or crypto Armenians!
          1. smile
            smile 23 March 2013 16: 40
            +5
            ayyildiz
            C'mon, the fact that the Turkish special services were preparing our bearded has been established for a long time, what can we say if we even caught personnel there - not like any kind of mercenaries with passports, visas, etc.
            1. Yarbay
              Yarbay 24 March 2013 11: 47
              0
              Quote: smile
              C'mon, the fact that the Turkish special services were preparing our bearded has been established for a long time, what can we say if we even caught personnel there - not like any kind of mercenaries with passports, visas, etc.

              Turkish services are heterogeneous and their principle of operation is very different from Russian and from what we are used to seeing !!
              There may be different influences and different views in one service !!
              Let's not talk about trained militants, and personnel were not caught there, but next))
              If you remember, Dudaev was liquidated thanks to the Turkish intelligence services !!
              Russian sources used to say this too !!
              1. Anti
                Anti 24 March 2013 12: 08
                -2
                Do not exaggerate the possibility of special forces in Turkey at that time.
                Clinton, for the purpose of mutual support, gave Yeltsin all the coordinates of Dzhokhar Dudaev. Although the Turks were sorry, then, too, were under the Americans, by the way, but now?
                1. Yarbay
                  Yarbay 24 March 2013 19: 39
                  0
                  Quote: Anti
                  Clinton, for the purpose of mutual support, gave Yeltsin all the coordinates of Dzhokhar Dudaev. Although the Turks were sorry, then, too, were under the Americans, by the way, but now?

                  The satellite phone codes were given exactly by the Turks, who themselves gave this phone to Dudaev !!
                  1. Anti
                    Anti 24 March 2013 19: 47
                    -1
                    Quote: Yarbay
                    The satellite phone codes were given exactly by the Turks, who themselves gave this phone to Dudaev!


                    Yes, by the way, do Turks have satellites in orbit?
                    1. Yarbay
                      Yarbay 25 March 2013 00: 22
                      0
                      Of course there are satellites for a long time))
                      even Azerbaijan already has))
    2. Yeraz
      Yeraz 23 March 2013 12: 43
      -4
      Quote: Anti
      who wrote here about the steepness of the Turkish special forces and special services, why then they can’t solve the problem of the CRC

      The Russian special forces and the FSB are also tough guys who can’t solve the Caucasus problem?
      In Turkey, things will be more complicated, next to the Kurds there is Kurdish autonomy in Iraq and difficult mountains where you can hide, Syria helped the Kurds, and now, if the underground in the Caucasus takes mainly money from local sources and foreign funding is minimal, in the case of Turkey Israel is helping PKK, there are amers there, Europe is also controlling all drug trafficking in Europe.
      1. Anti
        Anti 23 March 2013 12: 55
        +2
        Once again, the problem is being solved quite successfully, but uvah no. And where did you get the funding data ....
        1. Yeraz
          Yeraz 23 March 2013 13: 05
          -2
          Quote: Anti

          Once again, the problem is being solved quite successfully, but uvah no. And where did you get the funding data from ..

          Yes, but almost every month, fights with some militants and a special forces soldier die each time. In Russia, the situation is better on the other side of the border there is no support element. The militants cannot calmly move towards Azerbaijan to rest and replenish. And Turkey has such an element.
          Regarding financing, did the special services disclose data on foreign aid, their volumes? Everyone has long known that local officials give kickbacks to Wahhabis. And we, as immigrants from the Caucasus, know this very well. And what is the situation in Dagestan when large officials move with 40 guards, when CT mode, this is not called everything is normal. In a stranger’s eye you see a mote, but in your ...
        2. Yarbay
          Yarbay 23 March 2013 13: 07
          0
          Quote: Anti

          Once again, the problem is being solved quite successfully, but uvah no. And where did you get the funding data ....

          from open sources Winnie))))))))))
          I’ve shown you links for a long time))))
          Turkish police catch drugs from tons of PKK fighters !!
          1. Anti
            Anti 23 March 2013 13: 13
            +1
            how did you guess? what I am identified .....
            1. Yarbay
              Yarbay 23 March 2013 13: 15
              +2
              Quote: Anti

              how did you guess? I am revealed

              Vinnie I hope you won’t shoot ??)))
              Why so ??
              I mean, were you hiding?))))
              1. Anti
                Anti 23 March 2013 13: 19
                +1
                From whom was he hiding and for what? It’s not a sin to shoot with you angry
        3. Yarbay
          Yarbay 23 March 2013 13: 12
          -4
          Quote: Anti

          Once again, the problem is solved quite successfully

          13:22, Friday March 22, 2013
          For the third day in the vicinity of Makhachkala, FSB special forces storm the fortified premises of an underground bunker, in which about 10 militants take refuge.
          Six special forces officers were injured, two more were killed during the siege of the underground shelter of bandits in Dagestan.

          The siloviki almost demolished the house under which the shelter was dug. However, the bunker itself remains impregnable. According to security officials, the fortification is equipped with criminals with the latest technology.

          http://lifenews.ru/news/112010

          do you think it is successful ???
    3. Yarbay
      Yarbay 23 March 2013 12: 51
      0
      Quote: Anti

      Some here wrote about the steepness of the Turkish special forces and special services, why then they can not solve the problem of the CRC

      I wrote this and I am responsible for my words !!
      Turkish burgundy berets are some of the best fighters in the world !!
      and smash the PKK all the time, but the Kurds don’t end !!
      And I remember writing this about the myth that 300 Turkish burgundy berets in Syria were killed in one battle !!)))))
      As for the special services, I did not say that !!
      1. Anti
        Anti 23 March 2013 13: 00
        +3
        But who is against it? If it had been written the best hardly believed. Who would specialize me, special forces not related to special services?
  • andrei332809
    andrei332809 23 March 2013 12: 19
    +7
    damn it, but hesitated with its greatness.
  • Selevc
    Selevc 23 March 2013 12: 29
    +1
    Honestly, I don’t see any connection between Poland and Kurdistan !!! Completely different peoples, culture, mentality, religions and different history ... Poland is a state with an ancient history that has been divided between strong neighbors for a long time ... Kurdistan, however, never had its own statehood ... And why did everyone rest so much on Kurdistan ?

    Yes, in the world there are many peoples, large and small, who do not have their own state - so what? Now, if you don’t divide the world map into 500 states instead of 200, or you can divide by 1000 or maybe more, because there are simply different darkness in the world of different nations ...

    The fact that we hear so much about Kurdistan is primarily a question of oil and a question of redivision of the old borders of the Middle East, which the British colonialists once ruled !!!
  • 120352
    120352 23 March 2013 12: 44
    0
    It would be strategically correct to invite them to Armenia as an autonomy, i.e. granting statehood, and Armenia as part of Russia, but also in the form of autonomy or even a union republic, then it would be possible to strengthen Russia's influence in the Caucasus and the territory of the former Byzantine empire, and it would be easier to support Syria and force Saudi Arabia restore Christian shrines, but no, so leave its territory to Kurdistan.
    1. ayyildiz
      ayyildiz 23 March 2013 12: 49
      0
      How easy do you think everything happens! Will everyone else sleep?
    2. Yeraz
      Yeraz 23 March 2013 12: 52
      +3
      Quote: 120352

      It would be strategically correct to invite them to Armenia as an autonomy, i.e. granting statehood, and Armenia as part of Russia, but also in the form of autonomy or even a union republic, then it would be possible to strengthen Russia's influence in the Caucasus and the territory of the former Byzantine empire, and it would be easier to support Syria and force Saudi Arabia restore Christian shrines, but no, so leave its territory to Kurdistan.

      hahahahahahah))))) Yes, you never cease to amaze))) Kurds in Armenia who are several times bigger than them, I just talk about Turkish Kurds, and Armenia in Russia)) Do you live on the border of Tajikistan and Afghanistan and use it so to speak the fruits of the products of Afghan peasants wink
    3. Arkan
      Arkan 23 March 2013 15: 30
      +2
      Quote: 120352
      It would be strategically correct to invite them to Armenia as an autonomy, i.e. granting statehood, and Armenia as part of Russia, but also in the form of autonomy or even a union republic, then it would be possible to strengthen Russia's influence in the Caucasus and the territory of the former Byzantine empire, and it would be easier to support Syria and force Saudi Arabia restore Christian shrines, but no, so leave its territory to Kurdistan.

      laughing You are angry - you have no regrets at all ... good laughing
  • Geisenberg
    Geisenberg 23 March 2013 12: 54
    0
    It was said "the trouble will end in Syria" ... Unfortunately, it would be correct to say "if it ends" because everything goes to the point that the trouble will not end for a very long time. In theory, all of the above countries, except for Turkey, need to come to an agreement with the Kurds, and even grant them autonomy, as on the map, but with the condition of resettlement of ethnic kuds to this very autonomy ...
    1. ayyildiz
      ayyildiz 23 March 2013 13: 08
      +2
      There have never been Kurds in half the map!
  • Black
    Black 23 March 2013 13: 22
    +2
    Quote: Selevc
    And why is everyone so rested in Kurdistan?

    Yes, because Kurdistan could become another point of Amer’s influence on the situation in the region. Torn apart, full of contradictions, mutual claims, hate- the territory that you have painted according to your desire will smoke and burn for many decades. The creation of regions, destabilization points is the US foreign policy, from which they will not depart for a long time.
  • fenix57
    fenix57 23 March 2013 13: 27
    +5
    Quote: Monge
    Remember from history that not many took Moscow

    And who took (in your expression) Moscow, and who tried this (inadvertently) all of them have one thing in common - they all ended up badly. Isn't it true. hi
  • pinecone
    pinecone 23 March 2013 14: 18
    0
    As for Turkey, in the conditions of mass migration of Kurds to the central, western and Mediterranean regions of the country, the question of independence of the so-called. "Kurdistan" is losing its edge. Comrade Ocalan's call for peace should be understood rather as an urgent advice to his fellow countrymen to settle in new places of residence faster and more thoroughly and to enter the local authorities as actively as possible, up to the establishment of complete control over them.
    PS Comparison with Poland really looks at least just ridiculous.
    ,
  • Anti
    Anti 23 March 2013 16: 56
    -2
    Freedom and the creation of an independent state to the Kurdish long-suffering people !!!!!

    UUUURAAAAAAAAAAAAA! ¡!!!!!!!! ¡)) €)
    1. ayyildiz
      ayyildiz 23 March 2013 17: 04
      +2
      Quote: Anti
      Freedom and the creation of an independent state to the Kurdish long-suffering people !!!!!

      UUUURAAAAAAAAAAAAA! ¡!!!!!!!! ¡)) €)


      And the Kurds all want this do you think?
      1. Anti
        Anti 23 March 2013 17: 09
        0
        They don’t want to make, they can’t teach !!!!
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 23 March 2013 16: 59
    -1
    Quote: Anti

    Freedom and country to the Kurdish long-suffering people !!!!!

    UUUURAAAAAAAAAAAAA! ¡!!!!!!!! ¡)) €)


    and other nations ??))))))))))))))))
    1. Anti
      Anti 23 March 2013 17: 03
      0
      And the others are hto?
  • Anti
    Anti 23 March 2013 17: 01
    +1
    The lady of all bais and yarbays !!!

    UUURRRRAAAAAAA !!!!!!!!
    1. ayyildiz
      ayyildiz 23 March 2013 17: 05
      +1
      And bears in the forest!
      1. Anti
        Anti 23 March 2013 17: 11
        +3
        At the expense of bears, there may be problems with the navel ...... lol
        1. ayyildiz
          ayyildiz 23 March 2013 17: 30
          0
          Quote: Anti
          At the expense of bears, there may be problems with the navel ...... lol


          something like

          [media = http: //youtu.be/W_yuDYjPdoQ]
          1. Anti
            Anti 23 March 2013 18: 10
            0
            not like that

            [media = http: //www.youtube.com/watch? v = JFPMBuIJ7Lo]
  • amp
    amp 23 March 2013 19: 17
    0
    So I don’t understand whether independent Kurdistan is beneficial to Russia or not.
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz 24 March 2013 10: 24
      +2
      Quote: amp

      So I don’t understand whether independent Kurdistan is beneficial to Russia or not.

      Bearing in mind that Iraqi Kurdistan, which is de facto free, is an American project and is completely tied to it, given that the PKK keeps money in Europe and is associated with it, given that there is a great influence of Amers and Israelis on the PKK, you draw conclusions yourself wink
  • Akuzenka
    Akuzenka 24 March 2013 18: 33
    +1
    Inaudible. The facts are presented as in the yellow press. For reference: The State Bank of England was founded in the 17th century, and the Fed in 1913, and not as a result of the First World War. Another thing is that PMA was a natural result of the formation of these structures. But why "fry" something that has long been known.
  • Marat
    Marat 24 March 2013 21: 26
    0
    Quote: hrych
    Dear Stanislav, this is so, but in part. The division into cattle breeders, farmers, and city dwellers can be applied to all peoples, beginning with Herodotus descriptions and Indian castes. Political scientists of all countries who share this Kurdistan are especially trying to forget the Kurdish nationality, but over the past thousand years they have synchronized their authenticity. I had the opportunity to communicate with students of Kurdish origin from Syria (truth twenty years ago), so I can say that they have a supranational national organization operating around the world. Yes, and you remember how, after the arrest of Ocalan, they held actions simultaneously around the world. Kurdistan actually already has the truth, a splinter of Iraq, but already with oil.
  • Terrible ensign
    Terrible ensign 25 March 2013 09: 27
    0
    Kurdistan is not Poland. Kurds are not Poles.
    The problem of Kurdistan is beneficial to many (USA, UK, consider NATO) - is an object for manipulation and pressure on the Turks (+ Iraq, Iran ...)
    Israel No. 1 on the possible benefits. I agree, probably there is a tacit agreement (s) between Israel, Turkey and the Kurds. But there is no definite certainty yet.
  • knn54
    knn54 25 March 2013 16: 04
    0
    Any serious conflict, not to mention wars, immediately caused an explosion in Kurdistan. And the elimination or easing of tension in the region entailed a decline in the Kurdish movement. This indicates the political fragmentation of the Kurdish movement, the priority of separatist ideals. And despite all the contradictions of the 4 countries of the region, they are strikingly united in a consistent consecutive anti-Kurdish policy. The Western powers strive to use the Kurdish movement for their own purposes and at the same time in every way prevent the Kurds from joining forces. Everyone needs Kurds ... and nobody!
    PS Until the “second” Mustafa Barzani appears, a talented politician and warrior, a man with high moral personal and qualities, the Kurds will have to forget about a single state, an independent Kurdistan.