The accession of Novgorod to the Moscow State

43
The accession of Novgorod to the Moscow State Novgorod land far exceeded other lands in size, possession of Veliky Novgorod stretched from the r. Narova to the Ural Mountains. A special feature of Novgorod was the presence of republican principles. Novgorod was ruled by the archbishop and posadniki elected by the council from the boyar families. Princely land in Novgorodchine absent.

In the second half of the 15th century, the Grand Duchy of Moscow increased its pressure on Novgorod. Ivan III Vasilyevich pursued a policy of "collecting lands." The threat of independence forced the Novgorod merchant-aristocratic elite to seek an alliance with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Novgorod, despite its wealth, could not resist Moscow itself. The anti-Moscow party was led by its energetic mayor's widow, Martha Boretskaya, and her sons. However, part of Novgorod was against the appeal to the Grand Duke of Lithuania, Casimir, because there was enmity between Catholics and Orthodox. Therefore, an Orthodox prince Mikhail Olelkovich, the son of a Kiev prince and cousin of Ivan III, was invited to Novgorod. He arrived in Novgorod 8 on November 1470 of the year.

However, Prince Michael stayed in Novgorod not for long. In connection with the death of the Novgorod archbishop Jonah, who invited Michael, a new wave of internal political struggle followed in Novgorod. As a result, 15 March 1471, Prince Michael left the city. The anti-Moscow party gained the upper hand and an embassy was sent to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. A draft treaty was drawn up with the Grand Duke Casimir. According to him, Veliky Novgorod recognized the supreme power of the great Lithuanian prince, but retained its former structure. Casimir promised to provide military assistance in the fight against Moscow. The conflict between Moscow and Novgorod has become inevitable.

Ivan III Vasilyevich tried to solve the matter in peace. He sent his ambassador, Ivan Tovarkov-Pushkin, to the Novgorodians with "good speeches." However, his mission was not crowned with success. Ivan III tried to influence Novgorod with the help of representatives of the Orthodox Church. The Moscow Metropolitan blamed Novgorod for betraying Orthodoxy, demanding from Novgorod the rejection of the "Latin state." But the intervention of the church could not muffle political passions.

The oncoming war with Moscow split the Novgorodians in two. In the Chamber, the opponents of Moscow shouted: “We don’t want for the Grand Duke of Moscow, nor do they call him his“ homeland ”. Free ezmy people Velikiy Novgorod "; "We want a king!" Military preparations in Novgorod took a significant scale. Only on the Pskov border in July 1471 of the year was sent 40 thousand troops. The Novgorod army was supposed to prevent the allied Moscow prince of the Pskov army from uniting with the main forces of the opponents of Novgorod. 12-thousand a detachment under the command of Vasily Shuisky was sent to protect the Novgorod lands down the Northern Dvina. The property was taken from those who refused to go camping. Despite the large number of the Novgorod army, its combat capability was low. The city was formed hastily, the townspeople were not trained in military affairs, many did not want to fight against the Grand Duke of Moscow.

In Moscow, they knew about the preparations of Novgorod and also prepared for a military campaign. Ivan III planned to organize an all-Russian campaign against Novgorod, giving it a religious coloring. 6 June 1471 from Moscow was made by the 10 ths. Squad, led by Daniel Kholmsky. The troops under the command of Kholmsky moved around the Ilmensky Lake from the south to the town of Rusu. A week later, the forces moved under the start of Striga Obolensky to Volochek and Msta. On June 20, the main forces of the Moscow troops, under the authority of the grand duke, marched from Moscow and moved towards the allies through Tver. There the Tver regiment joined the Moscow troops.

Having reached the border, the Moscow troops adopted the order of battle: the regiments of Kholmsky and Strigi walked to the right and left, the Grand Duke in the center, somewhat behind them. They attacked without wagons, Moscow warriors plundered the local population (this was common during the medieval wars). To frighten the Novgorodians, Moscow governors without “mercy” dealt with prisoners, punished them like rebellious serfs - “their noses, ears and lips cut them.” Kholmsky detachment seized the fortress of Demyan and burned Rus. He stopped at Korostyn and began waiting for the Allied Pskov troops. Novgorod command sent to meet Moscow troops in a hastily assembled detachment on ships on Lake Ilmen. In the first battle of Korostyn Novgorod troops were defeated.

Kholmsky received the order of the Grand Duke to go to Shelon and unite with the Pskovs. At this time, the Novgorod army under the command of Vasily Kazimir and Dmitry Boretsky moved up the r. Sheloni. The infantry was seated on ships, and the cavalry was on the shore. Having met, both rati walked for some time along different banks of the river. Following a long-standing custom, the Novgorodians, before the battle, started a verbal skirmish, “chulnye words wearily on the governor of the Grand Duke” and on himself. 14 July 1471, the battle took place. Novgorod ship's army fought bravely and "beat the Muscovite a lot" at the crossing. However, when the Novgorodians overturned the Moscow regiments and drove them behind Shelon, the soldiers of the ruler of the Kasimov khanate Daniyar hit them from ambush. Novgorod infantry flinch and ran. The situation could straighten the cavalry regiment of Archbishop Theophilus, but his governors did not move, saying that they were sent only against Pskov. Apparently, they acted on instructions received from the archbishop. Novgorod suffered the main losses during the persecution. Moscow army pursued Novgorod 12 miles. In this battle, about 12 thousand of Novgorod fell, and about 2 thousand more were taken prisoner. Among the prisoners were posadniks and the main Novgorod boyars. Ivan Vasilyevich, arriving in Rusu, arranged a trial and reprisal. Dmitry Boretsky and three other mayors were beaten with a whip, and then beheaded. Vasily Kazimir and three boyars were sent to Kolomna prison. From other noble people took something, simple Novgorod simply let go.

On July 27, the Grand Duke arrived in Korostyn, where he began peace negotiations with representatives of Novgorod. 11 August 1471 between Moscow and Novgorod the Great signed a peace agreement. The Novgorod Republic recognized its defeat, promised to sever relations with Lithuania and pay Moscow a large contribution in the amount of 15,5 thousand rubles. By order of the Moscow sovereign, defenses were demolished in the Novgorod fortresses of Demyan and Rus. Grand Duke Ivan III was in a hurry at the conclusion of this treaty. Opponents of Moscow at that time tried to create a broad coalition with the participation of Lithuania, the Great Horde and Livonia. Therefore, the Moscow sovereign accepted the main demand of Novgorod citizens - to preserve the veche system in Novgorod. Novgorod retained the right to invite princes to his throne, excluding the enemies of Moscow. However, the entire population of Novgorod was sworn. In addition, a large part of the vast Dvina land was ceded to Moscow.

Moscow-Novgorod war 1477 — 1478

In the autumn of 1475, Ivan III Vasilyevich arrived in Novgorod by “peace”, but accompanied by impressive strength. The reason for his arrival in Veliky Novgorod was the conflict of the boyars of Slavkov Street (they were to Moscow) with the boyars of the Nerevsky end (many of them were guided by Lithuania). The strife between these parts of Novgorod was accompanied by mutual attacks, pogroms and looting. The Grand Duke, violating the tradition of Novgorod - Novgorod officials had the right to judge only the Council of gentlemen and the Chamber, declared several leaders of the anti-Moscow party guilty. Several Novgorod boyars were sent to Moscow. Archbishop Theophilus wanted to help out the arrested boyars and came to Moscow, but his mission was not successful.

In fact, during this period, a judicial dual power developed in Veliky Novgorod: some complainants were sent directly to Moscow and there they presented their claims. The Moscow sovereign, seeking complete subordination of Novgorod, wanted to abolish the special Novgorod court, replacing it with a grand ducal one. This situation became a pretext for a new Moscow-Novgorod war, which ended with the fall of the aristocratic trade republic.

In the spring of 1477, “complainants against posadnik and boyars” were drawn to Moscow, among them were supporters of Moscow - posad Vasily Nikiforov and boyar Ivan Kuzmin. Together with the others, Ivan III Vasilyevich received two minor officials - Nazvo and Podkowski, Zechariah. In presenting their complaint, they called the Grand Duke “sovereign” instead of the traditional “master” appeal, this title assumed the equality of “Mr. Grand Prince” and “Lord Great Novgorod”. Moscow used this situation to resolve the Novgorod issue completely.

Ambassadors Khromoy-Chelyadnin and Tuchko-Morozov were sent to Novgorod, who, referring to the words of Nazar and Zechariah, began to demand official recognition for Ivan Vasilyevich of the title of sovereign Novgorod. They also demanded the arrangement of the residence of the Grand Duke at the Yaroslavovka Settlement and the replacement of the court of Novgorod by the Grand Prince’s Court. Veche, after listening to the Moscow ambassadors, said that Novgorod had not authorized any changes in the title of Vladyka of Moscow. “We,” said the inhabitants of the city, “so we did not send, we sent the boyars, but the people do not know that.” Nazar and Zachary were outlawed. A new wave of clashes between the pro-Moscow and pro-political parties began. Boyar Nikiforov, who secretly took the oath to the Moscow prince and entered his service, was killed. Posadnik Ovinov and his brother took refuge in the archbishop's court. But it did not save them, they were killed in the lord's courtyard. The archbishop could not save them. Influential boyars Fedorov and Zakharyin were put in custody. Moscow ambassadors were released “with honor”, ​​but all demands of Moscow were decisively rejected.

9 October 1477, the Moscow army moved to Novgorod. She was joined by shelves from Tver and Pskov. In November, Novgorod the Great was besieged. Novgorodians actively prepared for defense and refused to surrender. To prevent an attack from the river, the military leader of Novgorod, Prince Vasily Grebyonka-Shuisky and the townspeople hastily built a wall on the ships, blocking the Volkhov. The townspeople hoped that a large enemy army would not be able to provide themselves with food and sooner or later would leave, fleeing from hunger and cold. However, their calculations were only partially justified. Ivan did not try to storm the powerful fortifications of Novgorod and dismissed half of the army in the vicinity, so that the soldiers could get food by robbery. In addition, the great service of the army of the Grand Duke had Pskov, who began to supply it with food.

Novgorod had a chance to survive if there was unity in the ranks of his defenders. Supporters of Moscow, remembering the recent executions, hurried to leave the city and get into the grand prince's camp. Among the first defectors was the boyar Tucha and the son of the murdered boyar Nikiforov. It is also necessary to take into account the fact that the most determined opponents of Moscow were already executed or were in prison. There were no people who would be able to organize decisive and long-lasting resistance. Supporters of Moscow began to insist on negotiations with the Grand Duke. One of the supporters of the beginning of negotiations and the conclusion of peace was the Novgorod Archbishop Theophilus.

On November 23, the Novgorod embassy together with Vladyka Theophilus appeared in the tent of the Moscow sovereign on the banks of the Ilmen. Novgorodians wanted to make peace on the terms of the 1471 agreement of the year. Ivan Vasilyevich gave a feast in their honor, but rejected all the proposals of Novgorod. Hopes for an honorable world disappeared. The sovereign of Moscow declared that he wanted to see Novgorod with the same “patronage” as Moscow. Then the Moscow boyars told the Novgorod the will of the great sovereign Ivan Vasilyevich: "... in Novgorod there will be neither a veche bell or a posadnik, but there will be one power of the sovereign, as in the country of Moscow."

When the ambassadors set out these demands at the meeting, distemper began in the city. "Vstache black on the boyars and boyars on the mobile." New boyars ran to the Moscow camp. Posadniki tried to reach an agreement with the Moscow boyars. Muscovites assured their ambassadors that the sovereign would not evict the Novgorodians "to the Bottom" and would not take their land. These assurances put an end to the hesitations of the Novgorod government. Wanting to obtain guarantees of the inviolability of their property, the boyars asked the grand duke to personally confirm the agreement, swearing on the cross. But received a refusal.

Seeing that in the city there was a "great rebellion" and "disorder," Prince Grebenka-Shuisky laid down a kiss on the cross to Novgorod and asked Ivan Vasilyevich to take me into his service. Vasily Grebenka was not punished. He was promoted to the rank of boyar and became governor of Nizhny Novgorod. Novgorod, having lost the military leader, decided to yield to the requirements of the Grand Duke. 13 January 1478, they announced the subordination of Novgorod to the Moscow prince. Novgorodians agreed to restore the princely grand domain in the lands of Novgorod and defined the procedure for collecting taxes in favor of the Grand Duke.

15 January 1478, the Moscow boyars entered Novgorod and took the oath to the residents of the city. Veche's order was destroyed, the veche in Novgorod was no longer convened. Veche bell and the archive of the city was taken to Moscow. Novgorod court, elected positions were abolished. Novgorod Republic was destroyed.

Already in February, the sovereign of the order to arrest Marfa Boretskaya. The huge patrimony of the Boretskys was transferred to the treasury. Marfa and her grandson were first brought to Moscow, and then sent to Nizhny Novgorod, where she was tonsured as a nun under the name of Mary. Vasily Kazimir and three other Novgorod mayor were taken to the service, but they soon fell into disgrace and lost their votchina.

Ivan III was still afraid of the intervention of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and, having received a denunciation of the leaders of the Prolith party, ordered the arrest of the boyar I. Savelkov. In total, up to 30 people were arrested in the case of secret relations with Lithuanians, and their lands were confiscated. At the end of the 1480s, according to the writing books, the Moscow sovereign ordered the 1054 people to be evicted from Novgorod. Together with family members, about 7 thousand people were evicted. The “golden belts” were evicted - approximately 300 of the most distinguished families of Novgorod land and 500 - 600 merchants. The common people have not been affected by this eviction. Novgorod boyars and merchants were distributed in various cities, from Vladimir and Rostov to Murom and Kostroma. Novgorod aristocracy was actually destroyed, it was reduced to the level of ordinary service people.

Thus, Moscow eliminated the possibility of insurrection, since the Novgorod boyars and merchants still had great economic opportunities. With an unfavorable foreign policy situation for Moscow, the Novgorodians could try to regain independence.
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  1. vyatom
    -10
    14 March 2013 09: 54
    Novgorod is the only republic with true democracy. radish - Moscow, with its impudence and habitation, destroyed the glorious republic. If Veliky Novgorod became the head of the Russian state, there might not have been serfdom and the rest of the backward development of our country. And the fact that Pskov helped the Moscow troops with food, so he set his ass up in the Teutonic Order, if only he would not be touched, for which he paid for it from Alexander Nevsky. Interestingly, in the 41st year was the defense of Pskov? I didn’t hear something. Maybe again they let the Germans with open arms.
    1. +3
      14 March 2013 10: 27
      Quote: vyatom
      , and in the 41st year was the defense of Pskov? I didn’t hear something. Maybe again they let the Germans with open arms.

      and you? Separate Pskov from the USSR? Do not bring nonsense!
      As for the conflict between the Novgorod Republic and the Moscow Principality, the situation there was not so clear. I do not think that Casimir sat in his Lithuania and calmly waited for how it would all end. He clearly made every effort to pull the Novgorodian boyars to his side and annex Novgorod to Lithuania and set up the Novgorodians under the guise of defending independence against the Tsar of Moscow. As a result, it ended with a bloody massacre on Sofia Square in the Novgorod Kremlin. dove on the cross of the main dome of St. Sophia Cathedral
      1. vyatom
        +1
        14 March 2013 13: 06
        I think the Novgorodians wanted to defend their independence and their form of government. And Lithuania would also be left with nothing.
        1. Yoshkin Kot
          0
          14 March 2013 13: 32
          Yeah, just like the Ukrainians now. Only History Teaches that They Eat Alone, Enemies!
      2. vyatom
        0
        14 March 2013 13: 46
        Quote: lewerlin53rus
        and you? Separate Pskov from the USSR? Do not bring nonsense!

        No, I don’t separate. But to help Novgorod was also in the interests of Pskov. Still, the first republic in Russia was abolished. This looks especially sad against the background of the ensuing serfdom.
        1. +3
          14 March 2013 17: 00
          Quote: vyatom
          Still, the first republic in Russia was abolished.

          Yes, the Novgorodians did not even know the word "republic". The fight was between the Moscow prince and the Novgorod boyars, who did not want to obey him. And the decisions at the Novgorod veche were made on the basis of who would outshout whom, whose, so to speak, support group. Therefore, the boyars hired groups of screamers to promote their interests at the veche.
        2. morpekh
          -2
          15 March 2013 05: 31
          There was no Russia except Kmevskaya. No Novgorod Rus has ever existed; this is a reliable historical fact. There was Muscovy, there was Novgorod, a member of the Hanseatic League, there was Pskov, who had no relation to Muscovy. At that time there were two states in this region - the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Slavic superpower), and Kievan Rus. Standing apart was Novgorod. The rest are small peripheral principalities and estates. The usual medieval situation - everything was decided mainly by family ties and intrigues, disputes about the right of inheritance. And when they write something like - Novgorod - a republic in Russia, it looks like Turkmenbashi - the first father of the Turkmen in Russia.
    2. +6
      14 March 2013 10: 35
      enchanting! I thought here on the site hostility towards Estonians, but I see the Pskovs got it too. They survived biting among themselves.
      as far as I remember the story, the Pskov knights beat well. For example, the Pskov army went to help the besieged Izborsk ... read about Prince Dovmont ... The Bathory was also piled near Pskov ... but it was treason that told you the argument?
    3. BruderV
      +5
      14 March 2013 10: 36
      Quote: vyatom
      If Veliky Novgorod became the head of the Russian state

      You would also talk about the unification of Italy around Venice or Genoa. Not one trading republic could not become a strong state. Just by definition could not. The traders didn’t have to fight and they had to shed blood, but they had to beat the loot. Trading governors do not exist. In Italy, it came to the point that mercenary mercenaries simply played theatrical performances for the money of doges instead of real battles.
    4. +2
      14 March 2013 11: 05
      Quote: vyatom
      Interestingly, in the 41 year was the defense of Pskov?

      It was. But Pskov was bypassed from the southeast through the Island, and the defense along the Velikaya River and the Pskov SD was not successful. Bridges were blown up (many soldiers could not be evacuated and captured), and the Red Army retreated with fights towards Gdov. The road to Leningrad was already occupied by the Germans.

      And the fact that Pskov was against V. Novgorod is the case. Novgorod ruined Pskov in full, both in trade and in politics. And together with the Livonians he fought against the Pskov suburbs. Yes, and Novgorod himself went to Pskov war.
      1. +2
        14 March 2013 11: 15
        Truth and Pskov "accession" to Moscow affected, only without the massacre. So the last democracy (the word "democracy" is not to my liking) in Russia ended in 1510, in Pskov.

        An agreement with Livonia, without political and religious consequences, Novgorod concluded something to frighten Moscow. But it did not work, but on the contrary stimulated even more.
    5. +10
      14 March 2013 11: 10
      Ancient Novgorod should not be idealized. It was an oligarchic republic, with several noble families constantly fighting with each other. And Novgorod, with its loose political power, could not have been the unifier of the Russian lands. Today's liberals love to cry over the missed opportunity of Novgorod to become the unifier of "democratic" medieval Russia. But these are just liberal fantasies. As they say, every vegetable has its own time. In the conditions of that time, only a rigid centralized power could be a unifying force. Boyar rule is the path to anarchy and the struggle of all against all. Good examples of this are the boyar rule of the time of the young Ivan IV or the Seven Boyars of the Time of Troubles.
      1. morpekh
        -2
        15 March 2013 05: 49
        Yes, then there were no Russian lands!
    6. predator.3
      +1
      14 March 2013 13: 29
      Novgorod is the only republic with true democracy. radish - Moscow, with its impudence and habitation, destroyed the glorious republic.

      Not everything was so smooth, but until the end of the 14th century there was democracy, and then 300 gold belts concentrated in power, and every election of a posadnik was accompanied by such mini-civil wars, between the four ends of the city, again the famous ushkuyns plundered not only the Horde cities, but also their own N. Novgorod, Ustyug, Galich, etc.
      And so the city was really rich, crafts were developed, and Novgorodians were able to trade.
      1. vyatom
        0
        14 March 2013 13: 34
        Tell me, was there a serfdom in Novgorod?
        1. BruderV
          +5
          14 March 2013 14: 00
          Quote: vyatom
          Tell me, was there a serfdom in Novgorod?

          Finish. Novgorod simply could not go beyond its limits of growth. Describe to me how the Novgorod boyar would have put down the princely title, say, from the Tver prince? Automaton anathema from the archbishop and the holy war from all Rurikovich. Why should the medieval world be measured by today's standards? Maybe it’s better to try to understand him? Trade republics fought not for land, but for trade routes and markets. The boyars, as an estate, COULD NOT BE equivalent to the prince. Any war was not beneficial to such republics - as the loss of money, the capture of caravans by the enemies, the ruin of merchants. Venice had enough of one single war with the Ottomans to forget about its superiority at sea, it is better to keep silent about the army.
          1. vyatom
            -1
            14 March 2013 14: 54
            Quote: BruderV
            Finish. Novgorod simply could not go beyond its limits of growth. Describe to me how the Novgorod boyar would have put down the princely title, say, from the Tver prince?

            But did Russia grow to the present territories only through conquest? Or do you not get the king out of your head?
            1. BruderV
              +2
              14 March 2013 15: 07
              Quote: vyatom
              But did Russia grow to the present territories only through conquest?

              Actually .... Yes! I’m already looking forward to your story about how Georgia would voluntarily join the proud Novgorod Republic.
        2. +3
          14 March 2013 14: 30
          vyatom
          "Tell me, was there serfdom in Novgorod?"
          At that time, serfdom was not even in the Principality of Moscow ... hehe ...
    7. Yoshkin Kot
      +5
      14 March 2013 13: 31
      gee-gee-gee, visit Mr. Veliky Novgorod! and look at the size of the vech area! Only boyars had the right to vote in this democracy!
      1. BruderV
        +2
        14 March 2013 15: 01
        Quote: Yoshkin Cat
        Only boyars had the right to vote in this democracy!

        Well then, Poland is generally the standard of democracy. Magnates from the gentry choose a monarch for themselves, than not democracy? By the way, Zhezkospolita is translated - the republic. So maybe in vain then all this is Minin, Pozharsky ...
        1. 0
          14 March 2013 22: 09
          Well, it’s better not to remember the Polish monarch at all ... the Queen of England in these days wakes up more rights, she even has the right to dissolve the parliament with her voice ....
    8. 0
      14 March 2013 14: 27
      vyatom "Novgorod is the only republic with a real democracy."
      Of course, with the killing of people on the bridge over the Volkhov, the venality and greed of the ruling elite. A simple Novgorodians guns riveted, so that they could not shoot at the princely troops. So they are tired of the democratic mess!
      1. vyatom
        +1
        14 March 2013 14: 48
        Quote: Nagaibak
        Of course, with the killing of people on the bridge over the Volkhov, the venality and greed of the ruling elite. A simple Novgorodians guns riveted, so that they could not shoot at the princely troops. So they are tired of the democratic mess!

        I doubt very much that the guns of Novgorod were riveted.
        1. 0
          14 March 2013 20: 35
          vyatom "I doubt very much that the Novgorodians riveted the guns."
          I remember this from school ... But seriously, the troops of Novgorod and Moscow came together on the Shelon River. 5 Muscovites, 40 Novgorodians. Gumilyov explained the victory over Novgorodians with the professionalism and passion of the Moscow ratification over the militia hehe ... maybe ... hehe .... Or maybe they didn’t want to fight for their rotten system. .. hehe at all ...
  2. Tambov we ...
    +3
    14 March 2013 10: 28
    "... and in 41 there was a defense of Pskov? Didn't hear something. Maybe again they let the Germans in with open arms."

    In 1941, not Pskov, but the USSR fought against fascist Germany. Feel the difference. And do not so freely interpret the history of our country. You minus.
    1. vyatom
      +2
      14 March 2013 13: 48
      Minus so minus
  3. +1
    14 March 2013 11: 08
    By the way, not everything is clear about the verse. Novgorod "threw" the Pskovites in the fight for Yuryev (Tartu). they recognized it under the Livonians and entered into a defensive alliance, including against the attack of Novgorod. So the chain unrolled until the surrender of Pskov to the Germans. such a picture was given by the Internet. so that there were enough traitors in Novgorod too - to catch up with the difficult Alexander Nevsky with Novgorodians. and in this article, against Moscow and Pskov.
  4. The cat
    +1
    14 March 2013 14: 29
    The title of the article does not match the content. "The conquest of Novgorod ..." would more correctly reflect the essence.
  5. Nesvet Nezar
    +1
    14 March 2013 15: 55
    The article is separatist. Youngsters from Dagestan also believe that they were conquered. Ukrainian and Georgian youngsters, too, with foam at their mouths prove that they were prevented from living. Balts so generally called occupation what was vital for them. If there was an occupation, there would be no Baltic states. Oh yes, they survived by a heroic effort of will. Well done what! .... Something I was distracted ..... An article in line with the European vision of Russian history. This is not an accession to the state of the state. And internecine strife of one state. And with the separatist presentation of Russian history, it’s time to tie it up. The story written by Catholic monks for money looted in America from the Mayans and the Aztecs should go to landfill!
  6. +4
    14 March 2013 16: 33
    Before saying whether or not democracy was in Novgorod, it is necessary to clearly understand some of the mechanisms of the internal state system of the Kiev state and subsequent principalities after it. In general, there were three “centers of power”: the veche, the boyars and the prince. The oldest of which was precisely the veche, it essentially originates from a common tribal “gathering”: all who have a voice gathered and discussed how we should continue to live. The prince is the further development of the military leader, the boyars - accordingly, the development of the squad, etc. since he worked in Kievan Rus: “organized ladder law with the obligatory appointment of the children of the Kiev prince to former centers of tribal princes, future prototypes of principalities. However, the central government only created a problem for itself, the appointed prince either was not interested in affairs on the territory entrusted to him, because he was waiting for a transfer to a higher post, or on the contrary was too independent and did not send tribute to Kiev. Therefore, the local population did not have high hopes for the prince, but rather trusted the boyars and their court more. All this led to an increase in their authority and power; soon weakened princely power was forced to meet them. As a result, this led to separatism and feudal disintegration of Kievan Rus, although in fact it was never uniform. "A single state will be exactly as long as there is a subordinate power of the head of the subject to the head of state."
    In Novgorod, due to historical ambitions (no matter how the ancestral home of the Rurikovich), the collective principle in the form of the boyars and the “veche” won, which served as a platform for the manifestation of political power. All executive crap lay on the posadniks (well, like today's Prime Minister), and in cases of war they elected Prince (an analogue of today's supreme commander in chief and general staff). Any attempt by a prince or a posadnik to act too independently and he is "withdrawn" with a note in his personal file "did not justify his confidence." Well, what kind of centralization can we talk about in the person of Novgorod. They then and those possessions that were enough for the eyes. They received money from trade in the Baltic, right ?! Any war for new territories is from the beginning the question of who and how much will contribute money for it, and then how much and how to cut it down. In addition, an overly zealous prince can earn himself authority and become a "problem" as a potential "usurper."
    The Novgorod authorities wanted money and economic benefits; imperial ambitions did not bother them. Any power that longs for power for money is always worse than that for power for power!
  7. 713
    713
    0
    14 March 2013 17: 27
    Great article! Detailed and interesting. And this is generally a pearl [i]: "[i] However, when the Novgorodians overturned the Moscow regiments and chased them behind Shelon, they were ambushed by the ruler's soldiers Kasimov Khanate Daniyar. The Novgorod infantry faltered and fled. Equestrian could straighten the situation regiment of Archbishop Theophilus, but his governors did not move, stating that they were sent only against the Pskovites. Apparently, they acted according to the instructions received from the archbishop. "[/ I] What a Russian way! .. More precisely," Byzantine. "By the way, I remembered the words of Vladimir Vladimirovich that the Tatars fought on both sides in the Kulikovo battle. An interesting thing is vassal dependence! Almost internationalism and friendship of peoples ... And, as always, the archbishop is the most far-sighted of all. Clever, scoundrel!
    1. BruderV
      +1
      14 March 2013 18: 10
      Quote: 713
      An interesting thing is vassal dependence! Almost internationalism and friendship of peoples ..

      Only if you look through the pink glasses. If they are removed, direct analogies with the modern criminal world suggest themselves. There is a prince-plowman, he has a brother-squad with which he roofs his tributaries - ordinary people and collects a quitrent from them. There are other gangs that also protect their peoples, gangs of different nations can fight among themselves, and can cooperate. The prince-godfather can recruit foreigners if they are valuable in battle and gives them part of the tribute they collect, business and nothing personal. If lads and godfathers become cramped in their possessions - they go to arrange a showdown with alien gangs and establish their power and dynasty there, while no one asks the people. Godfathers can recognize power and foreign authorities, peculiar grandfathers of Hasans. This is the case with the Horde or the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, when, in search of protection, the small godfathers obeyed the aliens. Again, business and nothing personal.
      1. 713
        713
        0
        14 March 2013 22: 11
        By the way, pink glasses are an actual thing ...
        http://verydemotivational.ru/uploads/posts/2011-03/1299514006_155y0czyrk1l.jpg
        1. 713
          713
          0
          14 March 2013 22: 31
          More precisely:
          http://verydemotivational.ru/prikoly/3199-kakoj-zhe-ty-umnyj-dima.html
    2. 713
      713
      0
      14 March 2013 22: 07
      Speaking of pink glasses:
  8. +1
    14 March 2013 17: 54
    Quote: Skuto
    and in cases of war they chose the Prince

    Amendment: they didn’t choose, but they called and cast out. How Alexander Nevsky was called up, and then driven away when he began to squeeze too much of the Novgorod boyar freemen.
    1. +1
      14 March 2013 18: 13
      Quote: Skuto

      In Novgorod, due to historical ambitions (no matter how the ancestral home of the Rurikovich), the collective principle in the form of the boyars and the “veche” won, which served as a platform for the manifestation of political power. All executive crap lay on the posadniks (well, like today's Prime Minister), and in cases of war they elected Prince (an analogue of today's supreme commander in chief and general staff). Any attempt by a prince or a posadnik to act too independently and he is “withdrawn” with a note in his personal file “did not justify his confidence”!

      called for? Yes, they called, and before that they chose whom to call. but agree this fundamentally did not change the role of the prince. As was hired and remained.
  9. Marek Rozny
    +1
    14 March 2013 18: 42
    However, when the Novgorodians overturned the Moscow regiments and drove them to Shelon, they were ambushed by the soldiers of the ruler of the Kasimov khanate Daniyar. The Novgorod infantry faltered and fled. The equestrian regiment of Archbishop Feofil could correct the situation, but his governors did not move, saying that they were sent only against the Pskov.

    Significant paragraph.

    Thank you for the article. Very informative and easy to write.
  10. Horde
    -4
    14 March 2013 20: 19
    Veliky Novgorod is the largest and richest medieval city, even by the standards of Europe. Veliky Novgorod is a boyar trading republic where state issues were resolved at a nationwide gathering EVENING. Can people gather from the word EVENING?
    Karamzin wrote in the "History of the Russian State" that - "the largest trades in Russia 14-15c took place at the mouth of the Mologa River not far from Yaroslavl, and not at all in V. Novgorod on the Volkhov. So Veliky Novgorod is YAROSLAVL!
    -Fomenko and Nosovsky found interesting facts in the ARKHANGELOGORODSKY CHRONICLES. In 1434, Grand Duke Vasily Vasilyevich was defeated under Prince Yuri of Rostov and after that - "ran from Moscow to Kostroma through Veliky Novgorod VN" if you look on the map, it is a WORLD WAY! Either our ancestors were idiots, or VN is not where it is now.
    -VN for TI is located on the Volkhov River in the swamps, on inconvenience is a place where it is IMPOSSIBLE to trade normally, because the Msta river is rapids and raging. Never in history will a single LARGE TRADING city be built, as built by VN on Volkhov, to trade there is positively IMPOSSIBLE.
    -The main medieval trade route "FROM THE VARIANS TO THE GREKS" along the TI ran along the VN, but on the way crossed the Western Dvina. The question is, "why the hell do the FIBERS of ships and goods to VN on Volkhov, when you can safely go down the absolutely navigable river Zapadnaya Dvina and those same "Varyags"?
    -VN on Volkhov, the length of the walls is 1350m, the large Russian monasteries have even more Boriso-Gleb Monastery 1600m, i.e. VN is NOT the BIGGEST monastery in Russia. The length of the walls near Pskov, which is called "VN's Younger Brother", is 9000m. Again the TI mystery.
    This is only a PART of some, TI DISCONNECTIONS on which historians cannot give answers.

    I am attaching a Dutch 17v card, on which there is a whole bunch of ANACHRONISMS. Here you have Tartaria, Muscovy, and much more, and of course, NOVGOROD on the Volga and Volkhov.
    1. +4
      14 March 2013 20: 42
      Eh ... the Horde is not located like a human being. Maybe Moscow is not there? Hehe ... Is Novgorod located on your map instead of Nizhny Novgorod? Horde "Fomenko and Nosovsky found interesting facts in the ARKHANGELOGOROD CHRONICLES."
      It would be nice for these friends to smoke less ... Already the poor do not know what else to write and how else to surprise people hehe ...
      1. Horde
        -3
        14 March 2013 21: 07
        Is Novgorod on your map instead of Nizhny Novgorod?


        on the Dutch map we see FOUR! The name is NOVOGOROD, but none of the visible ones is suitable for Nizhny Novgorod in general. In general, the map is LIKELY ACCURATE, all areas are very proportional and CORRECT, without distortion. It is very likely that the map was created before or during the arrival of the Romanovs, REAL GREAT NOVGOROD has already been destroyed, but the Romanovs and their court historians did not yet understand where to hide the remnants of the crushed city, decided to send EVERYTHING to the fortress on VOLKHOV around.

        It would be nice for these friends to smoke less ... Already the poor do not know what else to write and how else to surprise people hehe.

        Nagaybak -wimp, the argument is like on the street in a smoking room ... Maybe you will be more serious and put THESE arguments, if you have them of course laughing
        1. 0
          15 March 2013 07: 31
          Horde "Nagaybak is a weakling, argumentation as on the street in a smoking room ... Maybe you will be more serious and put up REAL arguments, if you have them, of course"
          Wimp is not a wimp, at least I do not draw conclusions based on maps of the Middle Ages .. hehe .. with their knowledge level ... By the way, there is Klein Tartaria on your map, apparently, these are really little Tartar elves. Seriously talking about the topic you are trying to wake up here is ridiculous.
          1. Horde
            -2
            17 March 2013 00: 57
            I do not draw conclusions based on maps of the Middle Ages .. hehe .. with their knowledge level.


            all our ideas about history are based on ancient chronicles, medieval documents, ancient maps, on what basis do you say that old maps cannot be trusted? Our ancestors were no more stupid than us, I have already said that the topography of the map is almost impeccable - this indicates skill, professionalism and even scrupulousness in their work.

            By the way, on your map there is Klein Tartaria, apparently, these are really small Tartar elves. Seriously talking about the topic you are trying to wake up here is ridiculous.


            you must have read Tolkienen, seen enough — you are in vain. And as for TARTARIA, such a state really existed in history.
            1. +2
              17 March 2013 16: 10
              Horde "As for TARTARIA, such a state really was in history."
              More details please! Although I suspect fantasy writers will rest ... about this story.
              Horde "you've probably read Tolkienen, seen enough."
              What are you shifting from a sore head to a healthy one? This bread is yours and your alternate colleagues.
              Personal request, please clarify about klein tartaria ... In the Crimea? Was Tartaria there too? Wow ...
              And last time you showed a map of Siberia of the 18th century. There I saw the indicated tribe of certain Chukes in Chukotka. The question is, where are the geeks? You understand, you can’t do it without them heh .. heh .. you can do it well.
              1. Horde
                -2
                18 March 2013 10: 13
                More details please! Although I suspect fantasy writers will rest ... about this story.


                it’s better to see once than to hear a hundred times what card to put French, Spanish, from Britannica?
                Once again from Britannica 1771


                or again you will say that such a solid publication is just a variant of the tabloid press?

                Personal request, please clarify about klein tartaria ... In the Crimea? Was Tartaria there too? Wow ...


                historical names of peoples are composed of ratings by different authors.
                For example, Herodotus wrote that the Black Sea inhabitants were called Scythians, and the Scythians on medieval maps lasted until the 17th century, then other foreign authors began to call these inhabitants TARTARS, most likely the SELF-NAME of the inhabitants of the South of Russia of the Mongols, i.e. mighty, mighty, great, probably even later these MILITARY CONDITIONS began to be steadily called Cossacks. As for Klein TARTARIA, is everything logical if there is GRAND TARTARIA, THERE IS KLEIN too. Grand Tartaria to give an example of a map or look for the Internet yourself?
                There I saw the indicated tribe of certain Chukes in Chukotka.


                if the people call themselves CHUKCHI, then why is the land on which they live CHUKOTKA, not CHUKETKA, because it would be more logical, and therefore CHUK, because in self-name this people call themselves so the CHUK, and not the CHUKCH.
                Wow ...


                this is of course the MOST STRONG ARGUMENT in the conversation, but NOT OUR he, some kind of import.
                1. +1
                  18 March 2013 10: 46
                  Horde] if the people call themselves CHUKCHI, then why the land on which they live is CHUKOTKA, and not CHUKCHETKA, after all, it would be more logical, and therefore CHUK, because in the self-name of this people it is ChUK that calls itself so, and not CHUKCHETKA.
                  Thanks! Laughing to tears. Above your passages. I will add, but remember, you did not call yourself the Chukchi-Chuks. Apparently this is your next fantasy Their self-designation-ATTENTION HORDE !!! "Lygo ravatlan in Russian is" real people ". For more details see the Encyclopedia" Peoples of Russia "p. 408. Moscow, 1994
                  1. Horde
                    -1
                    18 March 2013 15: 27
                    and you remember not to call yourself the Chukchi-Chuks. Apparently this is your next fantasy Their self-designation-ATTENTION HORDE !!! "Lygo ravatlan in Russian" real people "


                    not bad, it seems good that you have already learned how to use Google, but if you still learn how to turn on your head, then you can begin to understand the essence of things. "ATTENTION HORDE" - laughing do not shout so much, this is not the case.
                    Chukchi `Encyclopedia of Brockhaus and Efron`
                    Chukchi
                    a small (about 6 thousand) primitive tribe of the extreme northeast of Asia, scattered over a vast territory from the Bering Sea to the Indigirka River and from the Arctic Ocean to the Anadyr and Anyuya rivers. The name Ch., By which the Russians, Yakuts and Lamuts call them, is a distorted Chukchi word "chavchu" (rich in reindeer), by which name the Chukchi reindeer breeders call themselves, in contrast to the Ch. Primorskie - dog breeders. The Ch. Themselves call themselves "oravedlat" (people). Ch .'s neighbors are Yukaghirs, Lamuts, Yakuts, and Eskimos (on the shore of the Bering Strait). Of these, Ch. Most of all resemble the Yakuts in appearance. Ch. Type is mixed, generally Mongoloid, but with some differences. Eyes with a slanting cut are less common than those with a horizontal cut; the width of the cheekbones is less than that of the Tungus and Yakuts, and more often than that of ...


                    So the self-name is still CHAVCHU, otherwise it becomes interesting where the CHUKCHI came from and Chukotka, if the self-name "lygo ravetlan" is "oravetlat", by the way, the self-name of the Mongols is "oirats", and LYGOO is clearly distorted PEOPLE. As for the distortions on the map, what to take from the Europeans if the Chukchi neighbors Yakuts, Russians, Lamuts distorted CHAVCHU to CHUKCHA and distorted it even more when they called this land CHUKOTKA.
                    And as for "LYG'O RAVETLAN", then I can only assume that this is the same EVOLUTION as the LITTLE RUSSIAN-UKRAINIANS-UKRA. laughing

                    Nagaybak you put me a minus? I will do the teaching also.
                    1. 0
                      18 March 2013 20: 06
                      Horde "Nagaybak you give me a minus? I'll do the same thing."
                      I try not to put cons at all. I rarely put it. When there are not enough swear words. You didn’t. Maybe sometime at first ... not having figured it out yet ... But you shouldn’t scare hehe ... I’m from Siberia, we are already frightened hehe ...
                      Unlike you, I have books at home. I draw information from books. Brockhaus is also at home. But this is a publication of a furry year ... there are publications more modern. By the way, the Chukchi people have a lot of self-names based on local conditions: people like braids, people such a valley, such a river, etc. In a word, they have many names within the people, different births, etc. But they did not call themselves chooks. But ours could call them that.
                      1. Horde
                        -1
                        18 March 2013 21: 44
                        But they did not call themselves chooks.


                        well, you don’t believe me anymore, but encyclopedias edited by Brockhaus and Efron
                2. 0
                  18 March 2013 11: 01
                  Horde "this is certainly the MOST STRONG ARGUMENT in a conversation, but it is NOT OUR, it is some kind of imported one."
                  A lady with a fan of a tartar-tombstone ... hehe ... in the Kazakh steppes hehe ... yeah and in Siberia. Hmm ...- But the Moguls were really only in India ... hehe
                  1. Horde
                    -2
                    18 March 2013 15: 52
                    I gave you an image of the Mongols-Moguls and Tatars according to the version of Europeans of the 18th century.
                    . See, for example, the French cartographer and engineer Malein (Allain Manesson Mallet) (1630-1706), whose drawings were printed in Frankfurt in 1719, depicting the “Tatars” and “Mongols”. Or an engraving of 1700 depicting the Tartar princess and the Tartar prince.




                    http://www.peshera.org/khrono/khrono-08_2.html#02

                    Well, what did you finally understand the DIFFERENCE of that story from THIS? she is very different.
                    1. 0
                      18 March 2013 20: 19
                      Horde "well, what do you understand at last the DIFFERENCE of that story from THIS? It is very DIFFERENT."
                      I understood one thing, your artists had an awesome fantasy! Draw what I did not see! Yes, so beautiful! Can you paint how these masters, in search of nature, rode across our steppes, drawing our Tatars and Tartars? Do you have reports on their expeditions? And I’ll tell you a secret in the 18th century at the same time it seemed to me under Peter, maybe a little later an expedition was equipped in Siberia. They spent several years traveling around Siberia documented and sketched everything. I did not remember who headed it. Academician German in my opinion Miller or something like that. In Khanty, a monument stands by these scientists. I saw better drawings than your clothes and faces of local Aborigines. Cities passing by and where they stopped. I think you can find information about this expedition. It was not secret. If you find let me know. I’ll refresh my memory, so to speak.
                      1. Horde
                        -1
                        18 March 2013 21: 35
                        Quote: Nagaibak
                        I saw better drawings than your clothes and faces of local Aborigines. Cities passing by and where they stopped. I think you can find information about this expedition. It was not secret. If you find let me know. I’ll refresh my memory, so to speak.


                        You have proposed an idea, and you will realize it, why should I seek out drawings by Miller’s artists? let's info in the studio
                      2. 0
                        19 March 2013 08: 31
                        Reluctance to prove the obvious. I’ll find it somehow I'll post it ... hehe .. in fact, for my own curiosity, we could look. Oh well ... I see you do not need it.
                      3. 0
                        19 March 2013 08: 49
                        Main article: Academic Squad (Great Northern Expedition)
                        The academic detachment was led by a full member of the Academy of Sciences, Professor Gerhard Friedrich Miller, who was heading to Siberia as the historian of the expedition.
                        At the beginning of August 1733, the detachment left St. Petersburg and at the end of October arrived in Kazan. One of the expedition's tasks was the organization of meteorological observations in various regions of Russia. The organization of meteorological observations was continued in Yekaterinburg, where the detachment arrived at the end of December 1733. Observations of temperature and air pressure, wind, atmospheric phenomena, and auroras (A. Tatishchev, surveyor N. Karkadinov, arithmetic teacher F. Sannikov).
                        In January 1734, the academic detachment arrived in Tobolsk. From there, Professor Delacroer set off with the Chirikov convoy east. The leader of the expedition, Bering, allowed Miller and Gmelin to continue the journey on their own.
                        From Tobolsk, a detachment along Irtysh reached Omsk, then visited Yamyshevo, Semipalatinsk and Ust-Kamenogorsk. In addition to archival work, Miller was engaged in archaeological excavations, Gmelin - in the organization of meteorological observations. Along the way, travelers studied the flora and fauna, collected collections of rare plants, conducted geological studies. In winter and spring of 1735, scientists visited Yeniseisk, Krasnoyarsk, Irkutsk, crossed Baikal and traveled to Selenginsk, Kyakhta. In the summer of that year, the detachment visited the Chita prison and in Nerchinsk, where he explored ancient monuments, burial mounds and ore mines.
                        In the fall of 1735, the detachment returned to Irkutsk.
                        In January 1738, Krasheninnikov, accompanied by two Cossacks and a clerk, Osip Argunov, went to explore the warm springs on the banks of one of the tributaries of the Bolshaya Banya River, and then to the Avacha Hill. In mid-January 1739, a squad on sledges arrived in Nizhnekamchatsk, where scientists organized meteorological observations. In 1740, Krasheninnikov on a dog sled made a circular trip through the northern part of Kamchatka.
                        The research of the Academic Squad, also called the I Academic Expedition, lasted 13 years. The works of G.F. Miller, I.G. Gmelin, S.P. Krasheninnikov, G.V. Steler, A.D. Krasilnikov, I.E. Fisher and others laid the foundation for the scientific study of Siberia, its history and nature
                      4. 0
                        19 March 2013 08: 52
                        I forgot to add, Miller personally led the expedition to Siberia Akdemichesky detachment. In addition, detachments were sent throughout Siberia.
                        It was intended to conduct research by several detachments, each of which, in fact, represented a separate expedition.
                        The coast of the Arctic Ocean was divided into five sections:
                        the westernmost section of the coast from Pechora to the Ob was to be investigated by a detachment under the command of Muravyov (later replaced by Malygin), reporting directly to the Admiralty Board. All other units were under the general leadership of Vitus Bering.
                        a section of the Arctic coast of Russia from the Ob to the Yenisei was examined by a detachment of Ovtsyn and Sterlegov
                        east of the Yenisei Minin squad worked
                        a section of the coast west of Lena was entrusted to the detachment of Pronchishchev, Khariton Laptev and Chelyuskin
                        A section of the coast east of Lena was examined by a detachment of Lassnius and Dmitry Laptev.
                        In the Far East, there were two naval units:
                        Bering-Chirikov detachment was supposed to explore the path to North America
                        Spanberg’s detachment was to compile an inventory of the Kuril Islands, the shores of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk and, if possible, reach the shores of Japan.
                        In addition, there were two land units:
                        academic - consisting of scientists - members of the Russian Academy of Sciences, whose tasks included the study of the interior of Eastern Siberia, in particular Kamchatka
                        detachment of Peter Skobeltsyn and Vasily Shatilov, which was tasked with finding a convenient river route from Verkhneudinsk to Okhotsk.
                        The cost of the expedition amounted to more than 360 thousand rubles. Several thousand people were involved in the work of the main and auxiliary units; more than 550 people were directly involved in scientific research. In Arkhangelsk, Tobolsk, Yakutsk and Okhotsk, several special ships were built for the expedition. To ensure the expedition with iron products, a Tamgin ironworks was built near Yakutsk.
                      5. 0
                        19 March 2013 09: 03
                        Pay attention to the dates of the expedition. And you will find the pictures yourself. I took the text from Wikipedia. It will be interesting to visit, take a look. There it is written about the course of the expedition. The Great Northern Expedition is called
                      6. Horde
                        -1
                        19 March 2013 22: 03
                        And you will find the pictures yourself. The text from Wikipedia took.

                        I didn’t find any pictures where the Tatars and Mongols were sketched by Miller; still, take the trouble to find them yourself.
                        I read that the expedition took place from 1733-43 SECRET, but why I didn’t understand secretly, maybe because I had to go through the territory of a foreign state, because Siberia was the possession of Tartaria hostile to Romanov’s Russia.
                      7. +1
                        20 March 2013 07: 13
                        Horde "I read that the expedition took place from 1733-43 SECRETLY, but why secretly did not understand, maybe because I had to go through the territory of a foreign state, because Siberia was the possession of Tartary hostile Romanov Russia."
                        Yeah, they concealed the whole country from the whole world ... And for 13 years the expedition was not found. And secret from other powers. Well this is furs, the main income. And there has been an insignificant amount of forces in Siberia for all centuries, and this was enough. I will tell you in secret Europeans also secret all their expeditions. Even in the 19th century. Read about our struggle for the Pamirs. That would not increase the competition.
                        Horde "Tatars and Mongols by Miller, take the trouble to find them yourself."
                        I don’t know what kind of Tatars you mean, such that Miller would describe them. And he could not describe the Mongols. After all, they live in Mongolia hehe ... But relatives of the Buryats could quite ...
                      8. Horde
                        0
                        18 March 2013 22: 01
                        Quote: Nagaibak
                        Your artists had an awesome fantasy! Draw what I did not see! Yes, so beautiful!


                        it turns out you are already repeating that medieval cartographers, painters, engravers, travelers
  11. AlexMH
    +2
    14 March 2013 21: 33
    The annexation of Novgorod was an absolutely logical step towards the unification of the Russian lands into Russia, headed by Moscow. It passed relatively bloodless. There were no mass executions, no bloody pogrom. The Novgorod boyars, who always looked at the West with one eye, lost their dominant position, and for the common people nothing much changed, except for the termination of regular wall-to-wall battles on the bridge over the Volkhov, which were the most striking manifestation of Novgorod's "democracy" (in fact the case of the oligarchy).
  12. +2
    14 March 2013 22: 10
    Quote: Horde
    THIS GREAT NOVGOROD has already been destroyed, but the Romanovs and their court historians have not yet figured out where to hide the remnants of the defeated city, they decided to send EVERYTHING to the fortress on VOLKHOV.

    What nonsense! Have you been to Novgorod the Great? Have you been around the Yaroslavl courtyard? Have you visited the Trinity excavation site? Sophia Cathedral? Faceted Chamber?
    Less need to read Rezun, Solzhenitsyn and others like them "historians" at night. During my years of study in NovGu, I have passed Novgorod museums and sights more than once.
    1. BruderV
      +2
      14 March 2013 22: 18
      Quote: lewerlin53rus
      What the hell


      Do not pay better attention to the trolls, where do without them. If you do not feed them, they behave calmer.
      1. Horde
        -2
        14 March 2013 23: 53
        There is a prince-plowman, he has a brother-squad, with the help of which he roofs his tributaries - ordinary people and collects a quitrent from them. There are other gangs that also protect their peoples, gangs of different nations can fight among themselves, and can cooperate. The prince-godfather can recruit foreigners if they are valuable in battle and gives them part of the tribute they collect, business and nothing personal. If lads and godfathers become cramped in their possessions - they go to arrange a showdown with alien gangs and establish their power and dynasty there, while no one asks the people.


        the point of view of the PRISON-CRIMINAL historian-chronicler, of course, that from this point of view everything falls into place. laughing
        1. BruderV
          +1
          15 March 2013 00: 09
          Why not? It inspired me with a universal trend. Maybe I also want to rewrite something, rethink it. Read the article again in particular:
          Came without carts, Moscow warriors robbed the local population (this was common during the medieval wars). To intimidate the Novgorodians, the Moscow governors without "mercy" acted with the prisoners, punished them as rebellious slaves - "they cut their noses, ears and lips."
          Is this not banditry? But the spirit of the times, there's nothing to be done.
          1. Horde
            -3
            15 March 2013 00: 35
            Quote: BruderV
            I was inspired by a universal trend


            what you "inspired" please leave it with you, you should not take it to the forum.
            Came without carts, Moscow warriors robbed the local population (this was common during the medieval wars)


            an army that "advances without convoys" is doomed to be in an eternally hungry state, therefore, the combat readiness of such an army is extremely low. There is no hope of robbery of the population, this further reduces order and discipline in the army.
            1. BruderV
              0
              15 March 2013 00: 45
              Quote: Horde
              what you "inspired" please leave it with you, you should not take it to the forum

              You can, but I can’t?
    2. Horde
      -2
      14 March 2013 23: 34
      Have you been to Novgorod the Great?


      I don’t have to be near the Pyramid of Cheops to understand the GREATNESS of this building and when they write that the LENGTH OF THE WALLS OF GREAT NOVGOROD is 1359m MUCH LESS THAN Pskov, then you will involuntarily think about it.
      Have you been around the Yaroslavl courtyard?


      do you mean "The Lord's Court"? and so from the Novgorod Chronicles- "Vladychny Dvor is a state within a state, there were cooks, leavens, warehouses, a well, cattle yards, stables, dryers, needlework, smithies, baths, cellars with supplies. METROPOLITA and you think that all this should fit on a miserable courtyard similar to a village gathering?

      Have you visited the Trinity excavation site?

      The permanent Head of the archaeological work of Novgorod, academician Yanin, counted 28 layers of pavement logs, three layers per 100 years for a total of 550 years, but then it turns out that if you subtract 20 550 years from the century, you get 1400, but VN dates back to the 11th century, where is the flooring for 400 years asked? Then the historical gang came up with such a move, they count 550 years from the 11th century, and the fact that from the 15th century to the present day there is not enough flooring they say, they say, "rotted." And this is considered a scientific approach? This is just a SCAM!

      Faceted Chamber?

      and this you call the GRANITE CHAMBER


      here is the GRANITE CHAMBER in Moscow there are verges REALLY.


      Sophia Cathedral?


      St. Sophia Cathedral of VN is the same age as the city of 11th century, but here is such an ANCIENT indicator as Shrinkage shrinkage of 1 m-century., And so at the SOFIA Cathedral of VN on Volkhov, only 2 meters of this is clearly not enough for the 11th century. St. Sophia Cathedral is a construction of 17-18 centuries.
      read Rezun, Solzhenitsyn and others like them at night


      I do not read these anti-advisers I do not like
      Over the years of my studies at NovGU, I have not once passed Novgorod museums and attractions.


      and you call it an argument you are DECEPTED just like everyone else.
      1. +2
        15 March 2013 00: 55
        [quote = Horde] you mean "Lord's court" [/ quote]
        You can immediately see that you are not in the subject and sculpt what you have to. Yaroslavovo courtyard is a complex on the trading side. And Vladychny Dvor is the northern part of Detinets, adjacent to St. Sophia Cathedral.

        [quote = Horde] St. Sophia Cathedral of VN is the same age as the city of 11th century, but here is such an ANCIENT indicator as Shrinkage of 1 m-century., So at the SOFIA Cathedral of VN on Volkhov, only 2 meters of this is clearly not enough for the 11th century. St. Sophia Cathedral construction of the 17-18 centuries. [/ Quote]
        In addition to shrinkage, there are other, more accurate measures.




        THE LENGTH OF THE WALLS OF GREAT NOVGOROD is 1359m MUCH LESS THAN THAN Pskov, [/ quote]
        To scribble in pussy is not a scientific approach. Look at the plans of cities from above and maybe understand why there are such lengths of walls. At Izborsk, the walls are even shorter than the Novgorod walls, but no one questions its antiquity.
        In short, I don’t know why you disliked Novgorod the Great, but it’s better to read more adequate sources of information than the letters of mediocrity who make a name for themselves in scandalous conclusions and articles that have nothing to do with scientific research. And even better, come to us in Novgorod. Maybe , you’ll understand something.
        quote = Horde] and this is what you call the GREAT WING [/ quote]
        Here it is
        1. Horde
          -2
          15 March 2013 07: 40
          It is immediately clear that you are not in the subject and sculpt what you have to.


          from the annals it becomes clear that the BASIC TRADING took place not at the Yaroslav Yard, but at the Vladychny Dvor.
          In addition to shrinkage, there are other, more accurate measures.


          which for example?
          Messing with pussy is not a scientific approach.


          no need to talk in cliches
          At Izborsk, the walls are even shorter than the Novgorod walls, but no one questions its antiquity.


          Izborsk in grandeur in history does not even stand close with Veliky Novgorod the real GREAT NOVGOROD. Therefore, the comparison is not correct.
      2. BruderV
        +4
        15 March 2013 00: 58
        Quote: Horde
        Vladychny Dvor is a state in the state, there were cookers, kvass, warehouses, a well, cattle yards, stables, dryers, needlework, a forge, a bath, a cellar with supplies STOLP WITH THE HOURS and along the walls there was a THREE-STOREY METROPOLIT PALACE and you think that should it fit on a pathetic courtyard like a village gathering?

        Livestock yards are probably your supplement, or some goat pens, the rest is quite fit

        Quote: Horde
        here is the GRANITE CHAMBER in Moscow there are verges REALLY.

        And the fact that in Novgorod it was rebuilt several times as usual is silent.
        Quote: Horde
        you are BAMED just like everyone else.

        Straight The X-Files. The truth is somewhere near.
        1. BruderV
          0
          15 March 2013 00: 59
          Everything described here fits
        2. Horde
          -2
          15 March 2013 07: 48
          Livestock yards are probably your supplement, or some goat pens, the rest is quite fit

          nothing is mine; everything that I listed is in the Novgorod annals. Judging by the plan, the Vladychny Dvor is just a small patch in the Kremlin, how all the HOUSING got in is not clear.


          the fact that in Novgorod it was rebuilt several times as usual we are silent.


          only after the "perestroika", as usual after any OUR perestroika, the general view of the chamber became somehow unpresentable, evokes neither admiration nor delight, and yet such antiquity.
          Straight The X-Files. The truth is somewhere near.


          the scale of OUR falsification of history is huge and commensurate with the scale of our country, the "X-Files" are resting.
          1. +2
            15 March 2013 08: 37
            Quote: Horde
            the scale of OUR falsification of history is huge and commensurate with the scale of our country, the "X-Files" are resting.

            Yes, historians like you have made so many "discoveries" in recent years that you are amazed. In their attempts to distort the history of Russia, they use any forgeries and demagogic fabrications. If only to belittle the significance and greatness of Russia and the Russian people. To kill his self-consciousness and make him feel shy It is disgusting to even argue with such people, you feel spat upon.
            1. Horde
              -2
              15 March 2013 19: 10
              Quote: lewerlin53rus
              Yes, historians like you have made so many "discoveries" in recent years that you are amazed. In their attempts to distort the history of Russia, they go to any forgeries and demagogic fabrications


              Well, at least find ONE forgery to begin with, I've already told you ten inconsistencies, your apotheosis on this topic - "everything I don't like is all a lie!

              In order to diminish the significance and greatness of Russia and the Russian people, to kill his identity and make him ashamed of his past

              I’ve looked at the history of your comments and I’ll say that you are a respected typical SINGLE LINE, you jump on the tops of the statues to collect the plus nectar. Perhaps you will not prove anything because there is NO POSSIBILITY to consider the evidence. Read articles, make smart comments, such conformists in this country need life will get better. negative
  13. 0
    17 March 2013 23: 33
    Quote: vyatom
    radish - Moscow, with its impudence and habitation, destroyed the glorious republic. If Veliky Novgorod became the head of the Russian state, there might not have been serfdom and the rest of the backward development of our country. And the fact that Pskov helped the Moscow troops with food, so he set up his ass for the Teutonic Order,


    "+" and minus you ******** ..... well, they don't like the word - radish
  14. +1
    31 March 2013 18: 49
    Quote: lewerlin53rus
    What nonsense! Have you been to Novgorod the Great? Have you been around the Yaroslavl courtyard? Have you visited the Trinity excavation site? Sophia Cathedral? Faceted Chamber?


    Beautiful city!

    Yaroslav Yard and Bargaining - the political and economic center of Veliky Novgorod in the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries, the Nikolo-Dvorishchensky Cathedral, the church of Procopius, Paraskeva Fridays, the Assumption, George, Ivan on the Flocks, the Gostiny Dvor Gate Tower.

    What about mead? good