Does historical science exist?

88


Articles on our site regularly appear on historical topics that always attract a lot of site visitors and cause heated discussions.

Often they occur along a long-established dividing line, on one side of which are adherents of academic science, on the other - supporters of unofficial views on certain events or historical science as a whole.

At the same time, the last and still not the trump card of the first group of opponents always remains the authority of the official historical science. Like: it is said by the venerable scientist, and who are you and from what edge? But how firm is this authority?

Based on the fact that the site has repeatedly stated (and no one has ever fundamentally rejected) that official academic history was constantly rewritten in the interests of winners or paying for historical research of interested sections of society, it can be extremely reliably stated that this discipline does not have one of the necessary properties science, namely, objectivity.

And if history is hundreds or thousands of percent rewritten and biased, then the questions arise: can it be called science? And does historical science exist at all?

Questions, it must be admitted, are truly archival, as one of the founders of Marxist-Leninist philosophy used to say.

But if modern official history is not science, then what is it?

Based on the functions that it performs today, it can be concluded with sufficient certainty that the world historical academic structure that has emerged today is just a tool in the hands of forces aspiring to world domination. Those avoiding publicity forces, which have long been called the world backstage.

Many will argue that this is an established institution that has centuries of prestige, and therefore, rejecting it means breaking the foundations of society, which will lead to savagery.

However, let us recall the recent naive, but firm faith of our people in the “free press” and “independent media” 25 years ago. Now seriously talking about such things can or a hopeless idiot, or a complete villain. Vera has evaporated, but the world has not collapsed. Just people began to live in the real world, and not in the mythical.

But does not the official historical science (SPE) perform the same functions for misleading people as the “independent media” and with their help, by the way?

A goal that the SPE does not state, but consistently pursues in its activities - and this we systematically notice - to ensure the moral and psychological superiority of the Western Judeo-Christian and Anglo-Semitic civilization over all other civilizations, instilling the latter with its inferiority in relation to its own history, distorting it or even simply striking out.

To be objective, it should be recognized that the SPE does not at all strive to acquire new historical knowledge and share it with society, but, on the contrary, in every way hinders this production and hides the accumulated knowledge from peoples. Of course, part of the truth SPE is forced to issue, but continuously mixes it with various falsifications. At the same time, from life experience we know that in order to more effectively push a lie into the consciousness of people, it is skillfully mixed with the truth. But incomplete truth or interspersed with false information remains a lie.

Hence, we can state that, in general, the entire modern SPE is a blatant and shameless lie, composed by a narrow circle of trusted handshake officials from science: starting with the Egyptian pyramids, which allegedly built slaves with copper chisels, and ending with twin towers, allegedly destroyed by the Al kaidskimi aircraft.

Of course it's not news. Even Churchill, whom I do not like very much for his zealous service to the bloodiest in the world history of the British monarchy, let it slip in his time; "History is a lie that historians have agreed upon." And he was special, close to reliable information.
Therefore, I clarify once again that the modern SPE has not so much research as protective (covering real knowledge from the broad masses of the people) functions.

Got in this respect and Russian history, perhaps even more than others.

Therefore, it is logical to see whether historical science exists (in the first place - most interesting for us - in Russia) on the other side of the barricades - among history researchers who do not belong to the SPE. And here we will see that despite the many beginners who do not have a sufficient level of qualification, devotees and, regardless of possible specially sent cossacks in order to defame these researchers (possible candidates - Fomenko and Nosovsky), we must admit that it is here and only here that to be and, most importantly, there are real Historical Scientists.
Of course, finding out the true story is hard work. But the one who attracts it has the ability to do it.

Anyone who does not find it hard to read the works on the most ancient history of Yu.D.Petukhov (History of the Rus, Normans of the North of Russia, the Paths of the Gods ...), early medievalism of L.Porozorov (Svyatoslav Khorobre, Caucasian Russia, ...) the Middle Ages and further VE Shambarov (Tsar of the Terrible Rus, Holy Russia against barbarous Europe ...), the newest and earlier Vadim Kozhinov (History of Russia and the Russian word, Russia the 20th century, Truth of Stalinist repressions ...), historical linguistics of L.N. Ryzhkov (On the antiquities of the Russian language).

I am sure that the names of many more real historians will be announced, but the one who masters even this proposed minimum will never fall blind victim of official historical science, which, like the “independent media”, contains the same owner.

And maybe it will contribute to this undeservedly protracted informational and ideological war with the now clearly vile civilization of the West.
88 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Komodo
    +6
    27 February 2013 04: 27
    And maybe it will contribute to this undeservedly protracted informational and ideological war with the now clearly vile civilization of the West


    That's for sure. I agree with every verb, adverb and adjective of this sentence.
    1. +6
      27 February 2013 09: 39
      Exactly, it is necessary to stigmatize all historians from the West for the lies that they brazenly stubbed into the fragile minds of youth.
      1. Trance
        +4
        27 February 2013 15: 59
        alexneg
        Good afternoon. +
        From young people make a means to an end. I don’t need to explain who wants to achieve what goals.
        History is replaced, falsified, and simply destroyed.
        But, oddly enough, even in the Caucasus there are highlanders who are against this and predict that everything that is happening today will lead to a war that has not yet happened on those lands and will be waged for complete annihilation.

        Ask why you hinted about the Caucasus? Because this is our sore subject and not everything is as smooth as the media are pouring in there.

        Video for thought, about the substitution of history.
        Best regards soldier

      2. Phase
        +2
        27 February 2013 19: 34
        Quote: alexneg
        shame all historians from the West, for the lies that they brazenly stained into the fragile minds of youth.

        Yes. And along with this, you need to create your own, real history. Otherwise, "a holy place is never empty."
  2. Fox
    +1
    27 February 2013 07: 32
    Anyone who does not find it hard to read the works on the most ancient history of Yu.D.Petukhov (History of the Rus, Normans of the North of Russia, the Paths of the Gods ...), early medievalism of L.Porozorov (Svyatoslav Khorobre, Caucasian Russia, ...) the Middle Ages and further VE Shambarov (Tsar of the Terrible Rus, Holy Russia against barbarous Europe ...), the newest and earlier Vadim Kozhinov (History of Russia and the Russian word, Russia the 20th century, Truth of Stalinist repressions ...), historical linguistics of L.N. Ryzhkov (On the antiquities of the Russian language).
    ------------------------------- I tried to read these authors, I could not. A lot of problems. And at the same time, Nosovsky and Fomenko, as well as Kesler, Davydenko, everything is much more logical and often echoes the Vedas, genetics and archeology.
    1. Svobodny
      -1
      27 February 2013 08: 23
      Quote: Fox
      echoes the Vedas, genetics and archeology.

      That's exactly what "echoes". It overlaps, because it has nothing to do with history.
    2. Earthman
      -1
      27 February 2013 08: 48
      Quote: Fox

      Anyone who does not find it hard to read the works on the most ancient history of Yu.D.Petukhov (History of the Rus, Normans of the North of Russia, the Paths of the Gods ...), early medievalism of L.Porozorov (Svyatoslav Khorobre, Caucasian Russia, ...) the Middle Ages and further VE Shambarov (Tsar of the Terrible Rus, Holy Russia against barbarous Europe ...), the newest and earlier Vadim Kozhinov (History of Russia and the Russian word, Russia the 20th century, Truth of Stalinist repressions ...), historical linguistics of L.N. Ryzhkov (On the antiquities of the Russian language).
      ------------------------------- I tried to read these authors, I could not. A lot of problems. And at the same time, Nosovsky and Fomenko, as well as Kesler, Davydenko, everything is much more logical and often echoes the Vedas, genetics and archeology.

      The works of these writers should never be considered
    3. 0
      27 February 2013 14: 52
      foxes (5) RU Today, 07:32 AM
      To put it mildly, your preferences are perverted.
  3. +3
    27 February 2013 07: 46
    History is a science. So these or those facts took place to be. And the task of History is to unearth these real facts. NOT science - this is philosophy. When a bunch of different wiseacres compose something there, and then begins, contradicting each other and themselves, to merge it into the masses.
    Is the history recorded by official science correct? Correct. It does not matter HOW the pyramids were built, it is important that they stand. And History does not describe the exact technological process of their construction, I remember from the USSR textbook that only VERSIONS were given there.
    Next: The Twin Towers. Have they been blown up? Fact. Who called? History will again record the VERSIONS, including that the US government has invoked them.
    Next: Was the Battle of Kulikovo? Fact. Another question: fought against the "Iga" as such, or is it still against a specific Mamai, speaking for the "legitimate Tokhtamysh"?
    And what does the author want to tell us? The author gently concludes that the Battle of Kulikovo may be fiction. And here the horseradish bald author.
    A thousand times I turned to fans of "alternative" history: guys, prove to me that you are right with a specific example. Well, compose some event of at least the scale of the city of Uryupinsk, which did not exist and so that they would believe you and this event was recorded in the documents.
    Complicated? Well, I’ll simplify it - compose any event of at least 200 years ago the scale of the city of Uryupinsk, which was not there, but which you manage to prove that it was!
    Weak ?! And there are no examples, then there is no bazaar. Good philosophize. Verbiage-hfilosofy.
    PS All these articles are like a hidden attack on our glorious Russian History. But Chechil spoke so much about history, because the British have it just shameful. And so they, brazenly Saxons are very happy with such articles
    1. +5
      27 February 2013 08: 50
      Quote: Magadan
      Was the Battle of Kulikovo? Fact. Another question: fought against the "Iga" as such, or is it still against a specific Mamai, speaking for the "legitimate Tokhtamysh"?

      So that's just the point. History as a science should fix the facts, but not give them a UNIQUE interpretation, but provide ALL versions. Including the most incredible ones. You cannot say "this was the only way, and not otherwise." Many insignificant events that have not reached our times could have a great impact in the past. Some of the advisers could say something, or a messenger brought some news, and such a decision was made. And even more so it is impossible to judge the activities of someone from a modern point of view. And we are already judging - Ivan the Terrible is a scoundrel! So many boyars have ruined! Or such an example: Princess Olga avenged the death of her husband. Cruel and powerful. Now they are beginning to be indignant: "What a horror! Here she is - a Russian Christian!" And for that time it was NORMAL! A Christian is not a Christian, and she could not submit quietly, sobbing. She had to keep her destiny for her son .... If we are to consider some fact, then we need to give the whole picture "horizontally", over the entire layer of that time, and not build one opinion into an axiom.
    2. avt
      +3
      27 February 2013 09: 29
      Quote: Magadan
      History is a science. So these or those facts took place to be. And the task of History is to unearth these real facts. NOT science - this is philosophy.

      When you listen to the historical chronicle of Svanidze or the historical academician Pivovarov, there is a strong conviction that history is not a science. Well, I completely agree with philosophy, philosophy is a servant of religion, before getting acquainted with the works it is always useful to know what the philosopher believes.
      1. +3
        27 February 2013 09: 41
        Uh ... Socrates and Anaxagoras from Klazomen do not agree with you, because they were accused of godlessness. The first was executed, the second escaped with exile.
        Aristotle's natural philosophy and logic laid the foundation for modern Western science and rational thinking. Less to you for obscurantism. Yes
        1. avt
          +2
          27 February 2013 10: 52
          Quote: Iraclius
          Aristotle's natural philosophy and logic laid the foundation for modern Western science and rational thinking. Less to you for obscurantism. yes

          Oh bitter to me, Bitter! laughing good After all, I perceive atheism the same as religion, especially in the light of the de-Christianization of the Western world and the instilling there, well, sooooo specific common human values ​​like Satanism that look like ..------------------ - Uncle Seryozha- ,, But there is one logical trap. From the fact that modern history is distorted and politicized (and this is foolish to deny), it is concluded that all alternative versions are correct. This is not the case at all. "----- request And I won’t argue! And who prevents to question and analyze the facts and conclusions made on their basis? There is a good principle - Do not make yourself an idol. Very true and that strange always helps!
          1. +1
            27 February 2013 11: 01
            Then nothing is clear at all! Is morality an idol? Is ethics an idol? Is logic an idol? .. Are convictions an idol? They are all servants of science and society. If you live without convictions, obeying only instincts and momentary desires, then what about the very definition of "Man"? belay
            1. avt
              +1
              27 February 2013 11: 11
              Quote: Iraclius
              Then nothing is clear at all! Is morality an idol? Is ethics an idol? Is logic an idol? .. Are convictions an idol? They are all servants of science and society. If you live without convictions, obeying only instincts and momentary desires, then what about the very definition of "Man"? belay

              Well, so in two lines and answer? request I can not . But the coordinate system and base are of course needed. For me, the Sermon on the Mount and the Ten Commandments are quite enough. But it is painfully difficult to meet this level! So people are looking for excuses in the form of philosophical interpretations of what it was meant in Nagornaya. So in short, but don’t demand that I reveal the secrets of the universe. Although I know that I don’t know much. By the way, about the non-creation of an idol for yourself, the same from the original source. No? smile
      2. Uncle Serozha
        +4
        27 February 2013 09: 53
        Quote: avt
        When you listen to the historical chronicle of Svanidze or the historical academician Pivovarov, there is a strong belief that history is not a science

        I agree with you. But there is one logical trap. From the fact that modern history is distorted and politicized (and it's silly to deny), it is concluded that all alternative versions are correct. But this is not so at all. From the fact that the official version is incomplete or ideological, it does not at all follow that the nonsense that people who pour on the pages of their publications are far from historical (namely historical) science is true.

        This is about this colleague Magadan above and wrote. The main task of history is the establishment of facts. The author of the article immediately made a reservation that the lack of official historical science is politicization. But at the same time I forgot to mention that alternative specialists suffer from a lack of factology.

        Speaking of the politicization of historical science. Who would dare to say that in the Soviet years it was not politicized? It was. Moreover, after the revolution of 17 years, it was completely revised. Nevertheless, she remained a SCIENCE and to the delusions of alternativeists did not fall.
        Who can say that Stalinist historians served the world behind the scenes? But at the same time, they did not assert that "Khan Baty and Ivan the Terrible are one person", etc. nonsense.
        1. +3
          27 February 2013 10: 21
          Quote: Uncle Seryozha
          The main task of the story is to establish the facts. The author of the article immediately made the reservation that the lack of official historical science is politicization. But at the same time I forgot to mention that alternatives suffer from a lack of evidence.

          Alternatives, as noted in the article, are different. At the same time, some of them are not afraid to use ALL PROFITABLE FACTS for research, and not only those that are built into the line of the regional party committee without silence and certainly not destroying objectionable artifacts.
          By the way, I previously wrote that the works of Petukhov in their professionalism are not inferior to the works of Rybakov. But the latter has not yet been removed from the cage.
          1. 0
            27 February 2013 12: 36
            “Fame for Petukhov was brought not so much by his many novels and novels, not distinguished by artistic merit, but by Petukhov’s pathological desire to shock the public with the obsessive propaganda of his own“ genius ”: numerous interviews with himself, advertising posters and booklets, statements on the pages of the press”

            I think that says a lot, to say the least.
            ... all modern languages ​​(peoples) came from one - the language (people) of the Rus.

            Everything is clear here. Mania furibunda.
            ... a comprehensive study of Petukhov’s works was conducted, as a result of which the researchers came to the conclusion that the texts propagate ideas of inciting racial, national and religious hatred, a cult of violence and cruelty, xenophobia

            Advocate his labors further. Yes
            Once again I am convinced that where there are "alternatives" - there is definitely something not clean. request
            1. 0
              27 February 2013 14: 42
              Petukhovtsy really hurts his eyes. laughing
              A special institution has been crying for a long time. It is a pity that punitive psychiatry was abolished. recourse
    3. +4
      27 February 2013 09: 43
      Quote: Magadan
      No matter how they built the pyramids, it is important that they stand. And History does not describe the exact technological process of their construction, I remember from the textbook of the USSR, that only VERSIONS were given there.

      I cannot agree that the fact of the presence of the pyramids is a story. In my opinion, the fact that the pyramids are - just an observation of the outside world.
      But to find out when and by whom they were built, by what nations during which social system and as a result of the realization of which ideas - this is a matter of history.
      In the textbook on the history of the USSR did not write about the pyramids. They were written about in the history of the Ancient World. And there are no versions and never have been. In all the textbooks they wrote that they were built by the Egyptian pharaohs as future tombs, using for this purpose the forced labor of slaves. But the Egyptian slaves could not do this physically, as they had not even bronze, but only copper tools.
      So the statement that the Egyptians built them is wrong. So science in this case is either incompetent or deliberately lying. And what kind of science can we talk about here?
      And about the towers. This is our version here. And in the official historical documents of the United States there are no versions. There is an established fact, which will enter later in all the textbooks without any idle speculation of the Internet plankton.
      1. +3
        27 February 2013 09: 53
        Hmm ... but what about the official records, where it is written in detail what and where the pharaohs built? Champollion's invention? I do not agree with you.
        We observe the fact - the pyramids are standing. We study the sources - they built. Check - how did they build? And here, all homegrown builders pass. How so - to cut with a copper saw! Yes, they never saw her live and do not know about the full-scale experiments of the Americans, when cedars were quietly sawed with copper saws along the fibermaking boards for the construction of ships.
        Sandstone and limestone are sawn with copper saws for one or two. The simplest mechanisms allow you to do a lot. What seems impossible to us now. Can many of us lay down a stove? Or a blockhouse without a single nail? But we are not talking. what a miracle, yo mine! lol
        1. +4
          27 February 2013 10: 12
          Quote: Iraclius
          Sandstone and limestone are sawn with copper saws for one or two.
          And try to process granite with copper tools, the facing is granite pyramids. And as far as I know, drank not found, only scored. And how did they achieve the installation speed of multi-ton blocks, one in 2 seconds? And yet, the fact of rain erosion on the sphinx has been proved by geologists, and historians do not recognize them. But if the facts contradict the theory, it is necessary to revise the theory.
          1. +2
            27 February 2013 10: 32
            Well, you know how copper was valued at that time. Gold was far from her. No wonder they do not find. The remnants of the saws were smelted and again put into business.
            As for granite - if there are traces of a saw, but they are (!!!) (somewhere I had photographs). At least in Mesoamerican cities, stone traces of cuts are clearly visible on stone basalt slabs, and the Indians did not know. wink
            That means. sawed with something. Than - another question. But sawed. For there are mines and there are finished structures. We must look for a solution to this technical problem.
            I always remember the famous phrase of our Soviet scientist Yu.V. Knorozov.

            Yu.V. Knorozov looks at fomenko and roosters, as at ...

            He said so - “How is this an insoluble problem? What is created by one human mind cannot but be solved by another. ”
            I remembered these words for life.
            Besides. you must always be guided by the principle of Occam - the simplest explanation is the correct one. No need to drag Atlantes, Martians, intelligent slugs and other crap at every opportunity. lol
            1. +1
              27 February 2013 10: 48
              Quote: Iraclius
              That means. sawed with something. Than - another question. But sawed. For there are mines and there are finished structures. We must look for a solution to this technical problem.

              And one may wonder, who sawed it and when?
              Quote: Iraclius
              No need to drag Atlantes, Martians, intelligent slugs and other crap at every opportunity.
              As for the Atlanteans, how then to relate to Plato, it seems like also an official scientist.
              1. -1
                27 February 2013 10: 51
                Quote: Roman Dmitriev
                And one may wonder, who sawed it and when?

                The Egyptians are. wink
                Quote: Roman Dmitriev
                About the Atlanteans

                I said - it’s not necessary at every opportunity to blame everything on them. wink
                1. +2
                  27 February 2013 11: 23
                  Well, if the Egyptians existed in those days when it rained in Egypt, then they are. Well, about Atlantes does Plato tell us what to do with him, or is he the ancient Greek Fomenko?
              2. Earthman
                0
                27 February 2013 11: 37
                Quote: Roman Dmitriev
                As for the Atlanteans, how then to relate to Plato, it seems like also an official scientist.

                Yes, he can be said to be an antique Tolkien, simply described the rumors among the people, which were then identified? Illy everyone thinks that people from Noah’s ark came out?
              3. 0
                27 February 2013 23: 46
                Quote: Roman Dmitriev
                As for the Atlanteans, how then to relate to Plato, it seems like also an official scientist.

                Everything is as usual very simple.
                Plato is not a scientist, especially in the modern sense of the word. He is a philosopher. And in his works written in a dialogical form, he often gave his ideas a mythological and symbolic form. One of these forms was a story about Atlantis, and subsequently people, especially after the loss of the main part of the dialogue of Critias, began to betray to this symbol the meaning of a real object.
                That's it.
            2. +2
              27 February 2013 11: 15
              Quote: Iraclius
              As for granite - if there are traces of a saw,

              Traces of cuts are found only on limestone blocks, and it is doubtful that they were made with a copper saw. The limestone is taken steel, it is not very good, not to mention granite. Although the granite lining of the pyramids exists, but it is only adhesive polymer concrete in the ancient version. there is no overstimulation, it is enough to know the proportions. By the nature of the work, I came across artificial marble made using adhesive technology, it is indistinguishable from the real one. In the Nile Valley, there are all the components for the production of adhesive granite, and you don’t even have to dig, everything is under your feet, yes the bottom of the river. Studies were conducted, but as always did not receive wide publicity. There is a secret, there are tourists, there is money.
              1. +1
                27 February 2013 13: 00
                Modern methods of processing granite include the use of a special “wire saw” and abrasive, usually silicon carbide, having a hardness comparable to diamond — that is, hard enough to overcome quartz crystals in granite. A wire saw is essentially a continuous loop supported by two disks, one of which is the lead. Granite is cut, being fed to the cutting surface or in a fixed form, between the wheels that are adjustable in distance, when the tool is inserted into it. The loop itself does not cut granite - it is intended only to effectively hold silicon carbide, which actually cuts the material.
                Looking at the shapes of the cuts that were made in the basalt samples of Giza, of course, we can conclude that the wire saw was used and left its imprints on the stone. The full radius at the bottom of the cut is precisely and exactly the form that would have been left by such a saw.

                As an option. Yes Saws in granite, diorite is. As there are drilled through holes. It is possible that some primitive milling and drilling machines were used. But all this could be fully implemented.
                1. Earthman
                  0
                  27 February 2013 13: 05
                  Quote: Iraclius
                  As an option. Saws in granite, diorite is. As there are drilled through holes. It is possible that some primitive milling and drilling machines were used. But all this could be fully implemented.

                  No aliens built. I think humanity itself and aliens invented itself, thanks to individual personalities.

                  Dear, have you been visiting Lurkomorye for a long time?
                  1. 0
                    27 February 2013 13: 35
                    Quote: Earthman
                    You have been visiting Lurkomorye for a long time

                    What do you mean?
                    I just want to say that there is a completely prosaic explanation for everything. Even the seemingly inconceivable cuts of granite in the Bronze Age. Well, we are not surprised at sawing the budget for 13 billion, but yes, cutting some stone. smile
                2. +3
                  27 February 2013 13: 57
                  Iraclius, please tell us how you imagine primitive milling and drilling machines. Yes, the manufacture of drill for granite by the Egyptians, I somehow can not imagine.
                  Quote: Iraclius
                  I will not hide, but I am not familiar with such an inscription. But for some reason you don’t consider this particular stela to be a fake. Why?
                  As for the fakes, I’ll tell you, I don’t think the ancient steles at all. But about the same inscriptions it is known that for the frequent pharaohs
                  interrupted cartouches on more ancient buildings. And yet, answer this question: in Egypt there are only 7 huge pyramids and several large temples made using the highest technologies (after all, even we cannot reproduce much), and the rest are primitive buildings. If there were proven technologies, why are all the buildings not of the same quality?
                  1. -2
                    27 February 2013 14: 09
                    Egyptologists consider implausible any reasoning involving the use of machinery in the construction of the pyramids, rather than manual labor. In fact, by and large, they do not even allow the builders of the pyramid to have the intellect sufficient to invent and use a simple wheel. With this approach, it is very funny that a culture with the technical ability to drill holes in solid diorite never thought of a wheel.
                    Quote: Roman Dmitriev
                    If there were proven technologies, why are all the buildings not of the same quality?

                    There can be many reasons for this - periods of cultural decline, for example.
                    1. +1
                      27 February 2013 14: 57
                      Quote: Iraclius
                      Egyptologists consider implausible any reasoning involving the use of machinery in the construction of the pyramids, rather than manual labor. In fact, by and large, they do not even allow the builders of the pyramid to have the intellect sufficient to invent and use a simple wheel. With this approach, it is very funny that a culture with the technical ability to drill holes in solid diorite never thought of a wheel.
                      It turns out that Duck, nevertheless, the Egyptologists are mistaken, because there are traces of drunk and drunk, but the Egyptians have no intelligence for such tools?
                      Quote: Iraclius
                      There can be many reasons for this - periods of cultural decline, for example.
                      DeerIvanovich wrote about this below, there is no transition. Yesterday they knew how, in the morning they woke up and no longer know how. The same goes for development. They built it from the fragments of stone on the mortar, and then they suddenly came up with saws and drills, and began to build from 60-ton blocks neatly adjusted to each other. And why did such a breakthrough affect only construction?
              2. DeerIvanovich
                0
                27 February 2013 13: 33
                Copper limestone is normal and can be processed, but granite is unlikely, but what did you think of the pyramids in Giza?
            3. Earthman
              +1
              27 February 2013 12: 52
              Quote: Iraclius
              He said so - “How is this an insoluble problem? What is created by one human mind cannot but be solved by another. ”
              I remembered these words for life.
              Besides. you must always be guided by the principle of Occam - the simplest explanation is the correct one. No need to drag Atlantes, Martians, intelligent slugs and other crap at every opportunity

              Or as Kozma Prutkov said: "Many things are incomprehensible to us, not because our concepts are weak; but because these things are not included in the range of our concepts."

              Therefore, dear Kosopuz, do not believe in the works of Petukhov, treat yourself like literature. But you decide.
            4. DeerIvanovich
              0
              27 February 2013 13: 31
              so you bring the facts, again one verbiage and not one fact ...
          2. +2
            27 February 2013 11: 01
            Quote: Roman Dmitriev
            But if the facts contradict the theory, it is necessary to revise the theory.

            That is how it should be.
            In fact, if the facts contradict the theory, so much the worse for the facts.
            They will simply be dropped.
            1. -1
              27 February 2013 11: 04
              Hmm ... There are traces of cuts - then sawed. They didn’t find peel, so they didn’t saw it. And if you still sawed. but something else?
              What kind of nimble are you - one fact did not fit in, immediately the theory must be redone. No.
              1. +1
                27 February 2013 11: 26
                Quote: Iraclius
                What kind of nimble are you - one fact did not fit in, immediately the theory must be redone.
                Duck a lot of such facts. At least the Egyptian stele with the record that Cheops did not build the pyramid, but repaired it, was first called a fake, and then they hid it altogether.
                1. 0
                  27 February 2013 12: 25
                  I will not hide, but I am not familiar with such an inscription. But for some reason you don’t consider this particular stela to be a fake. Why? wink
                  1. DeerIvanovich
                    +1
                    27 February 2013 13: 34
                    that is, are you already doubting the facts cited by official history?
                    that is, it turns out you can change the facts can not be others?
                    fun.
        2. DeerIvanovich
          +2
          27 February 2013 13: 29
          Well, give the records, where it is written "what and where the pharaohs built" on the three pyramids in Giza, which are clearly an order of magnitude different from the rest.
          1. 0
            27 February 2013 13: 40
            Do you write to me? If yes, then you are not at the address. You are in the sixth grade of high school where you study the History of the Ancient World. If it doesn’t reach there, then I recommend going to the history department, only normal, full-time. If interested, then I can throw a list of universities.
            You can save your malice for others, for me it does not work.
            I'm not going to engage in educational program, no matter how shkolota is going to. Although the content of individual comments begin to doubt. negative
            1. DeerIvanovich
              +1
              27 February 2013 13: 53
              not to you, but to the Baltic.
              but in addition to the recommendation on entering a university, do you have something sensible to say at least by article or by my post? or your soul wants to continue to flood?
              1. 0
                27 February 2013 14: 00
                According to the article, I said everything. You can re-read. You can easily find my posts - they are marked with minuses. All the best.
                Enjoy the creativity of roosters.
                PS What does the expression of your opinion and flood have to do with it? Read what it is.
                1. DeerIvanovich
                  0
                  27 February 2013 14: 13
                  I reviewed all your posts, don’t worry, I didn’t see the facts :(
                  And what place do your recommendations for me on entering the university relate to the article? no ... that is, flood!
                  1. 0
                    27 February 2013 14: 27
                    You asked me where it is written about the pyramids. I answered you intelligibly. Leave your provocative and mocking remarks, and it painfully looks like a fat troll. I clearly position my opinion and argue. I haven’t seen your opinion anywhere.
                    1. DeerIvanovich
                      +1
                      27 February 2013 18: 18
                      that is, apart from the course of the 6th grade school curriculum, the history of the Ancient World, you cannot offer anything, not a single more or less scientific research. well, at least quote what is written there, for we are ignorant and not well-versed.
      2. Earthman
        0
        27 February 2013 12: 47
        Quote: kosopuz
        I cannot agree that the fact of the presence of the pyramids is a story. In my opinion, the fact that the pyramids are - just an observation of the outside world.
        But to find out when and by whom they were built, by what nations during which social system and as a result of the realization of which ideas - this is a matter of history.
        In the textbook on the history of the USSR did not write about the pyramids. They were written about in the history of the Ancient World. And there are no versions and never have been. In all the textbooks they wrote that they were built by the Egyptian pharaohs as future tombs, using for this purpose the forced labor of slaves. But the Egyptian slaves could not do this physically, as they had not even bronze, but only copper tools.
        So the statement that the Egyptians built them is wrong. So science in this case is either incompetent or deliberately lying. And what kind of science can we talk about here?
        And about the towers. This is our version here. And in the official historical documents of the United States there are no versions. There is an established fact, which will enter later in all the textbooks without any idle speculation of the Internet plankton.

        Around the world a bunch of pyramids. It’s just the most Egyptian mythized since Napoleon, when he captured Egypt, then the interest of world culture in them began. People built it and this is a fact, not creatures or there are Russes according to Petukhov and Fomenko. Rather, they built Semitic tribes. As for the slaves, you are right, harnessing the slaves can not be built such a miracle, but on the contrary, the best masters of the world worked on them.
        1. +1
          27 February 2013 14: 13
          Quote: Earthman
          Rather, built the Semitic tribes.

          In Egypt, the time lived not Semitic, and Hamitic tribes.
          The Semites who were there were few guests.
        2. DeerIvanovich
          +1
          27 February 2013 14: 15
          there is a fact of construction, but about who and how, for example, the three main pyramids in Giza - questions ...
          The fact that many small ones were made with the last dynasties by official dynasties is justified by official science by the degradation of knowledge, well, even though it was painfully degrading, it didn’t even find a transition period, again the questions - why ???
  4. Svobodny
    +4
    27 February 2013 07: 51
    Does historical science exist?
    - Thank God, yes so far!)))
    According to the author, the works of Tatishchev, Karamzin, Klyuchevsky on Ancient Russia are pseudoscientific nonsense ??? A absentee candidate ist. sciences, who graduated in absentia from a bachelor degree Lev Rudolfovich Prozorov, the author raises to the rank of "real scientists-historians" ... If I understood everything correctly, then it is very sad.

    Why are there the classic historians of the Russian Empire. Here you have the greatest Soviet historian and archaeologist who devoted his whole life to the study of REAL artifacts of Ancient Russia. Is his work also a pseudoscience? Rybakov Boris Alexandrovich

    What does the "custom" story have to do with it? What does the West have to do with it? Have you ever thought that just the authors from the category of Prozorov are pseudo-historical provocateurs and profanators? The fact is that ALL the work of these "historians" (Prozorov, Petukhov and the like) is based solely on the sweeping denial of the epochal role of Orthodoxy in the formation of the Russian people as a people))) What's incomprehensible? In my opinion, everything is obvious.

    Boris A. Rybakov (May 21 (June 3), 1908, Moscow - December 27, 2001, Moscow) - Soviet archaeologist and historian, academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences (1991; academician of the USSR Academy of Sciences since 1958).
    1. +2
      27 February 2013 08: 19
      Svobodny "And the correspondence candidate of historical sciences, who graduated from Lev Rudolfovich Prozorov in absentia by correspondence, the author raises to the rank of" real scientists-historians "...
      You're right!!! There are many such clowns now. The brain is brought to people to the fullest ... According to the history of Russia, the times of troubles and Ivan the Terrible, I advise young people to read Skrynnikov. Of course, everything is boring for him and without twists as in the case of the presented dropouts. However, everything is serious, so be patient and get real knowledge by reading real historians.
    2. Earthman
      -4
      27 February 2013 08: 43
      Quote: Svobodny

      Boris A. Rybakov (May 21 (June 3), 1908, Moscow - December 27, 2001, Moscow) - Soviet archaeologist and historian, academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences (1991; academician of the USSR Academy of Sciences since 1958).

      Rybakov certainly deserves respect, but at the present stage, history is reviewing itself from the normal side and, due to its time, it also has flaws and shortcomings, but it’s worth getting acquainted, but don’t stop there
      1. Svobodny
        -1
        27 February 2013 08: 54
        Quote: Earthman
        history revises itself from the normal side

        With normal, which one is it - with left, right? There are artifacts, there are methodologically competent studies, and there is pseudoscience and pseudo-historical mythological confusion - a product of the 90s of the 20th century.
        1. Earthman
          0
          27 February 2013 08: 59
          Quote: Svobodny
          With normal, which one is it - with left, right? There are artifacts, there are methodologically competent studies, and there is pseudoscience and pseudo-historical mythological confusion - a product of the 90s of the 20th century.

          Normal means a more adequate and logical side. There is only one story, there cannot be different stories
    3. +1
      27 February 2013 09: 46
      I also want to add what fanaticism all these authors make us think that paganism is good, and Orthodoxy is bad. The fact that a single religion made it possible to unite and solder a multinational state into a single whole is somehow bashfully silent. And only this makes them drive in the tail and in the mane to hell. They want to pray to their stumps and images, drenched in the blood of sacrificial animals - let them pray, but do not force others. angry
      1. Svobodny
        -2
        27 February 2013 10: 34
        Quote: Iraclius
        the authors make us think that paganism is good, and Orthodoxy is bad

        This is their essence. ALL of their mythology is based on this. These are the ideologists of neo-paganism, which is the essence of simple occultism, devilry, in Russian speaking. They blow up the brains of our spiritually empty as a drum of youth, buying the most "progressive" of them with the "romance" of the pagan "worship", familiarizing with the "faith of the ancestors"!

        Many of them really want to believe these "historians", as well as the "magicians" with a Komsomol past, who are wearing kosovorotki, because they simply lack knowledge and, of course, true spiritual experience - they have nowhere to come from - these are the fruits of godless upbringing. Their myth-making is not just a "different opinion" - it is a direct threat to the spiritual health of the Russian people, which is already seriously undermined.

        And where is the State Department? - And here he is, in front of you, represented by the "historians" of the cock and the prozorovs! Here's a direct connection with the West, which first staged 3 revolutions in Russia, hopping us with communism, then fooled the Russian people in the 90s, and continues to fool us now!
        1. DeerIvanovich
          +2
          27 February 2013 13: 38
          you just have to change everything, no matter: paganism or Orthodoxy is our history, such as it is! there is nothing to fence a shadow on the fence and engage in inciting hatred through religion!
          1. 0
            27 February 2013 14: 49
            Who is fomenting what, the defender of rooster?
            The books of the writer "Fourth World" and "Genocide" are recognized as extremist, banned, subject to seizure and destruction.

            Am I lighting up?
            And this:
            VAGS specialists especially highlighted such phrases as “lousy Europeans”, “CIS scum” and “black filth”. At the same time, experts say that in the texts the writer expresses his negative attitude to the ongoing changes in the country, to the government, including the president, representatives of various political parties and calls for intolerance towards the state, government and president.

            In the place of the author of the article, I would have completely removed this surname from harm's way;
            And there are still those who defend this frenzied Nazi.
            1. DeerIvanovich
              0
              27 February 2013 18: 21
              In general, this applied to yours:
              "the authors make us think that paganism is good and Orthodoxy is bad"

              Well, since you do not know how to read carefully, from now on I will take this into account and I will quote you winked
    4. +1
      27 February 2013 09: 50
      Quote: Svobodny
      Here you have the greatest Soviet historian and archeologist, who devoted his whole life to researching the REAL artifacts of Ancient Russia. Is his work a pseudoscience too? Rybakov Boris Alexandrovich

      Read below the Earthman post today, 08: 43 and make sure that for official science B.A.Rybakov is the same margin as Prozorov (in the same direction Rybakov spoke not so long ago and Marek Raznya)
      By the way, you did not read Petukhov. The one who read it, on the contrary, accuses him of the corruption of the ROC,
      1. +1
        27 February 2013 10: 11
        I'm talking about neopagans. I have not read Petukhov and I am not going to. I'm afraid for my reason. B.A. Rybakov - archaeologist, world-famous teacher. And the fact that some of his theories are controversial does not detract from his dignity as a scientist. He operated on facts, and did not suck them out of his finger. After all, no one makes dogma out of academic science - the main thing is the approach. He may either amateurish or professional. The first is not right. The second is correct. This is what we are talking about.
        1. +2
          27 February 2013 11: 25
          Quote: Iraclius
          Petukhova not read and not going

          Mandelstamma did not read, but I condemn.
          Quote: Iraclius
          He operated on facts, not sucking them out of his finger.

          Petukhov also handles the facts.
          Quote: Iraclius
          No one, after all, makes a dogma of academic science — the main thing is the approach. He is m. either amateur or professional. The first is not correct. The second is correct. Here about this speech.

          Professionalism and amateurishness are not such simple things.
          From childhood I remember the advice of one American to another read (like D. London): “If your guys (professionals) cannot solve this problem for so long, find a smart person who is completely unfamiliar with this area, lock him in a separate room so that there was no contact with professionals, and then he can solve your problem. " This is about amateurishness.
          About professionalism: “Do not trust history and politics to professionals. They sell their labors for money. ” It seems to be Pushkin
          I am not even talking about the dilettantism with which many defended dissertations are crammed. (And I am a little familiar with this, as I once had to write dissertation reviews).
      2. Svobodny
        -1
        27 February 2013 10: 37
        skullcap,
        Quote: kosopuz
        You have not read Petukhov.

        Do not read.
        And I do not advise you, much less your children.
        Here would advise for children: Ishimova A.O "History of Russia in stories for children"
        Best regards
        1. +1
          27 February 2013 11: 27
          Quote: Svobodny
          This is what I would advise for children: Ishimova A.O "History of Russia in stories for children"

          If the original Russia is written with a capital letter, then I will try to get acquainted.
          If the same as yours, then I will not take it into my hands.
          1. Svobodny
            -1
            27 February 2013 11: 44
            Thank you for your comment. Corrected. ctrl + enter press next time)))
        2. Earthman
          -2
          27 February 2013 11: 34
          Quote: Svobodny
          You have not read Petukhov.

          I read Petukhov, to be honest, his story draws on Tolkien's novels, mythical Slavs, the first mutated Slavian BC, from which clever only Slavs appeared and all that. He is not surprised by the fact that 90% of scientists and smart people are Jews
          1. +1
            27 February 2013 12: 25
            Quote: Earthman
            I read Petukhov, to be honest, his story draws on Tolkien's novels, mythical Slavs, the first mutated Slavian BC, from which clever only Slavs appeared and all that. He is not surprised by the fact that 90% of scientists and smart people are Jews

            You did not read Petukhov. If they read, they would not have written it. According to Petukhov, all people are hybrid Russ (those Russ are, of course, not at all modern Russians), including Jews.
            Well, the last given "fact" is controversial.
            1. Earthman
              0
              27 February 2013 12: 33
              Quote: kosopuz
              You did not read Petukhov. If they read, they would not have written it. According to Petukhov, all people are hybrid Russ (those Russ are, of course, not at all modern Russians), including Jews.

              I apologize that instead of the Rus - the Slavs wrote. it was written about Russ, but otherwise everything is correct and I read, then I thought that I read and did not read other works anymore.
            2. +1
              27 February 2013 12: 43
              Quote: kosopuz
              all people are hybrid Russia

              skullcapI won’t understand. Maybe you decided to joke so sophisticatedly, but I accept everything at face value and in vain seriously get upset?
              Do you really believe in this sick nonsense? belay
          2. 0
            27 February 2013 12: 28
            Quote: Earthman
            the first mutated Slavic BC, from which smart only Slavs appeared and all that

            Come on? belay What a horror! belay And me dear skullcap still reproaches that I am not familiar with this opus! lol
            1. Earthman
              -2
              27 February 2013 12: 35
              Quote: Iraclius
              Come on? What a horror! And my respected Kosopuz still reproaches me for not knowing this opus!

              Yes Yes. Only I put it wrong and apologized above. instead of the Slavs, the Rus was written and the so-called English sir or sire, this is a read-back rus or grew. I did not see the logic.

              There is no need to be offended by kosopuz, he is the author of this article himself, he is also trying to come to a decision
            2. DeerIvanovich
              +2
              27 February 2013 13: 40
              something you more and more like a yoshkin cat look like his flood
    5. Uncle Serozha
      +1
      27 February 2013 09: 58
      Quote: Svobodny
      According to the author, the works of Tatishchev, Karamzin, Klyuchevsky about Ancient Russia are pseudoscientific nonsense ??? A correspondence candidate ist. Sciences, who graduated from Lev Rudolfovich Prozorov in absentia, the author elevates him to the rank of "real scientists-historians" ... If I understood everything correctly, it is very sad.

      Bravo! good
  5. +2
    27 February 2013 07: 52
    You need to read, it fuels patriotic feelings, but accept fantasy and artistic-alternative history as a science ... we can someone like it.
  6. 0
    27 February 2013 07: 58
    Yeah ...
    favorite, for breaking copies, theme ....
    What is there to discuss?
    What’s the story to my grandmother ... if the investigators, in hot pursuit, unravel the crimes for 2 years.
    Yes, so to the end and do not unravel. And sometimes it’s even more confusing.
    ...
    A small set of authors ... who does not consider it work ....
    Authors - at least an order of magnitude more.
    And who really - does not consider it work - in fact, you need to start with the annals. Archival storage.
    And not with interpretations.
    I think so.
  7. +4
    27 February 2013 09: 01
    History is a temporal sequence of world events creating a certain reality, as well as a record in the form of the usual temporal following of one event after another (i.e. in the form of a chronicle).
    The task of historical research is to select those that matter from the totality of historical events that have come down to us, draw up a historical picture with their help, and uncover the relations existing between them so that the current state becomes their result.
    Based on the fact that the world around us is an objective reality, then the sequence of events that create it, i.e. history is an objective reality. Task real academic science - create an objective picture of history. If there are falsifications of facts or proven facts of rewriting history, then they must be checked and confirmed by many independent sources. Otherwise, we can talk either about hypotheses or about pseudo-scientific speculation.
    Something like that, friends ... request
    1. Uncle Serozha
      0
      27 February 2013 10: 01
      Quote: Iraclius
      Based on the fact that the world around us is an objective reality, then the sequence of events that create it, i.e. history is an objective reality. The task of real academic science is to create an objective picture of history. If there are falsifications of facts or proven facts of rewriting history, then they must be checked and confirmed by many independent sources. Otherwise, we can talk either about hypotheses or about pseudo-scientific speculation.

      good

      Quote: Iraclius
      Something like that, friends ...

      The only way.
    2. +3
      27 February 2013 10: 05
      Quote: Iraclius
      The task of real academic science is to create an objective picture of history.

      True remark. But historical science, as such, began to form in 1583 with Scaliger's work "On the correction of chronology." And everything is still based on this work. What time was it? The era of the Reformation in Europe, the era of redistribution of property. And Scaliger's work was hardly not biased. So history from the very beginning of its existence was probably the servant of politics.
      1. -1
        27 February 2013 10: 19
        A bit wrong. Scaliger is the founder of historical chronology. Using the postulates about the allegedly weak knowledge in mathematics of those scientists, all sorts of Nosov's are trying to create their own new chronology. There is only one snag - checking the dates of the eclipses of Thucydides and Plutarch on modern computers gives approximately the same results as Scaliger gave. In general, science has been successfully using the adjusted chronological tables of Scaliger to this day, which, as it were, hints at Scaliger's "illiteracy". lol
        Well, you are exaggerating a little politicization of the historical science of that period. The historical picture and the praises of the court flatterers should not be confused. wink
        1. +2
          27 February 2013 11: 23
          Quote: Iraclius
          and the politicization of the historical science of that period is a little exaggerated.

          Well, don’t tell me. When the power was changing, in the society of that time, when the power was inherited, for individuals suppose they suddenly came to power or seized it, they needed justifications, genealogies that were inseparable from historical research at that time.
      2. DeerIvanovich
        +2
        27 February 2013 13: 41
        not sure, but is!
  8. DeerIvanovich
    +3
    27 February 2013 09: 15
    you can’t do with the annals alone; here you need to evaluate all historical facts on the basis of a whole list of indicators. for example, modern German history and archaeologists have proved that the Carolingian empire of pure water is fiction if we only come from documentary sources. A study was conducted of more than 1500 archaeological sites throughout the so-called Carolingian Empire, relating to their period. but to compare with the Carolingian it turned out only a couple of objects. Here you have the annals !!! But before that, official science trumpeted in all that the Carolingian empire of hoo.

    the article was well written by the author, he touched upon the aspects of the contradictions, in general, a plus, although it was not worth giving a list of authors, for the thirsty may find, and the thinker will be able to sift the grain from the chaff.
    1. +1
      27 February 2013 09: 37
      So what?
      That's right - "... you can't get by with chronicles alone, ..."
      I wrote - ".. will not consider it for work - start off actually from the chronicles it is necessary .. "
      ..
      And the interpretation - "and what opinion can a person not receive the attention of the authorities have?"
      1. DeerIvanovich
        +4
        27 February 2013 13: 20
        I still would not give priority to the study of history (and indeed information in general) to anything. only a system of facts, both documentary (informational) and material, while not in a single, but in a mass dimension.

        for example, I analyze the myths of the peoples of the world, we can come to the following conclusion: there was a flood ... but this is just a fact from which it is impossible to understand whether the flood was local or global, or it didn’t exist at all, but suddenly for no reason dreamed all at once smile
        and here is the fact that this fact is supported by material facts: conducting numerous studies around the world, by various groups of researchers, in order to reduce the subjectivity of evaluating the fact, here you can already further clarify the fact of the flood with the facts of the research: it was global or local, or even dreamed of.
        1. Earthman
          0
          27 February 2013 13: 24
          Quote: DeerIvanovich
          I still would not give priority to the study of history (and indeed information in general) to anything. only a system of facts, both documentary (informational) and material, while not in a single, but in a mass dimension.

          for example, I analyze the myths of the peoples of the world, we can come to the following conclusion: there was a flood ... but this is just a fact from which it is impossible to understand whether the flood was local or global, or it didn’t exist at all, but suddenly for no reason dreamed all at once
          and here is the fact that this fact is supported by material facts: conducting numerous studies around the world, by various groups of researchers, in order to reduce the subjectivity of evaluating the fact, here you can already further clarify the fact of the flood with the facts of the research: it was global or local, or even dreamed of.

          I fully support your approach to the study of world history
    2. +2
      27 February 2013 10: 06
      Quote: DeerIvanovich
      So much for the chronicles !!!

      No wonder. Without a doubt: most of the official written sources that have come down to us are concocted in the same way as a document about the shooting of Poles in Katyn by Soviet bodies.
      Although Ilyukhin at one time officially stated that he knows a person who can testify that there was a special order to make this document. After that, Ilyukhin died suddenly. The fate of a person who was willing to risk telling the truth if he was calculated is also unenviable.
      Although it is clear to the fool that even Wolf Messing could not predict in advance that the Germans would seize this area in a year and then be forced to retreat from it.
      And it was necessary to know all this in advance and absolutely firmly, in order to order German pistols, cartridges and a rope in the required volumes.
      DOGS. At the same time, the position of the Germans in this matter is absolutely clear to me and I absolutely cannot accept the position of the Poles. After all, if their soldiers are truly dear to them, then out of a sense of supreme justice, they should establish the Truth, and not try to use the death of their fellow citizens for vulgar political ends.
  9. -3
    27 February 2013 09: 37
    Historical science, like, perhaps, no other is still based on the foundation of scholasticism, created by the medieval scholar monk Pierre Abelard. Personally, I do not see anything wrong with the fact that the authoritative names of chroniclers, chroniclers, archaeologists, ethnographers, historians are important in history. Because if you only give freedom to all kitchen "scientists", then such a stinking shaft of profanity will trample, that mother do not grieve. In principle, this picture in the 90s - early 00s took place when all sorts of Fomenki blossomed with a stormy color. So what? Found historical truth? No, they only sowed doubt in immature minds, perverted many holy concepts. I am with both hands for academic science!

    For the list ... um ... publications (I basically do not call them books! No. ) put a "minus" in the article. These "publications" should be burned at the stake like plague clothes. Such "works" give nothing but confusion of the historical picture. Indeed, everything is confused in the Oblonskys' house ...
    Special thanks I want to say to comrade Gumilyov. With all due respect, his theory of passionate ethnogenesis gave rise to a wave of folk history at the time, although the author himself did not expect such a terrible effect.
    In these publications, the authors very skillfully pull facts out of context and tailor them to their pseudo-theories, playing on the public’s austerities to cheap sensations.
    1. Uncle Serozha
      0
      27 February 2013 10: 03
      Quote: Iraclius
      Because if you only give freedom to all kitchen "scientists", then such a stinking shaft of profanity will trample, that mother do not grieve. In principle, this picture took place in the 90s - early 00s.

      And again good
    2. +1
      27 February 2013 10: 37
      Quote: Iraclius
      Because if you only give freedom to all kitchen "scientists", then such a stinking shaft of profanity will trample, that mother do not grieve.

      This is a dishonest attempt to translate the discussion of existing problems to kitchen abuse. In this vein, representatives of official science can quite reasonably be called cheap lickels and ask a counter question: how is the smelly shaft of corrupt historical works better than trying to get to the truth?
      Therefore, I propose: if at the moment you are not ready to defend your position with arguments, then it is better to wait until you have formulated the answer. And before swearing, do not slip
      1. -1
        27 February 2013 10: 48
        I will answer you with the words of M.A. Bulgakov that the devastation is in the minds. And all because people are not doing their job. History is the destiny of professionals, not amateurs. You can tell me for hours about what they are trying to get to the bottom of it. One thing is clear to me - they will not get to the bottom of the truth, because they do not know the basics of scientific research and do not have the appropriate education and experience. I don’t intend to go to any abuse, but I express my opinion directly. If it seems too straightforward to you, then I apologize. hi
        What arguments do you need?
        The very fact that most of these pseudo-historians do not even have a specialized education says a lot to me.

        ***
        skullcap, as I understand it, that you are the author of the article. Do not be offended by me for my opinion. If you think that homegrown historians help to search for the truth, then this is your personal opinion. I have already voiced my opinion. At least to consider me dishonorable is wrong, because I paint and explain my point of view in almost every post and do not hide the fact that I put someone cons. I just got them stuck. hi
        1. +2
          27 February 2013 11: 41
          Quote: Iraclius
          History - the lot of professionals, not amateurs. You can tell me for hours about what they are trying to get there. One thing is clear to me - they will not get to the truth, because they do not know the basics of scientific research and do not have the appropriate education and experience.

          And here I can not agree with you.
          Even honest professional science needs prodding. Because it is more comfortable for her to warm in the academic chair, rather than look for something unknown, it's not knowing where, by the way, by the way, that she will be paid for or given a degree, and not sent into exile.
          A classic example is Troy Schliemann.
          Schliemann is a classic amateur. But if it were not for his passion for history, the official science would still have studied the Trojan period of the Mediterranean according to Homer's Odyssey, considering it to be its fiction by the author.
          Quote: Iraclius
          The very fact that most of these pseudo-historians do not even have a specialized education says a lot to me.

          This is not the basis either.
          For example, Napoleon's Marshal Murat also did not have a professional military education, which, however, did not prevent him from smashing many highly educated opponents.
          And from our life we ​​know that often the best specialist in a team is a person not with a higher education, but with secondary consideration.
          Education mind does not add.
          1. Earthman
            +2
            27 February 2013 11: 48
            Quote: kosopuz
            This is not the basis either.
            For example, Napoleon's Marshal Murat also did not have a professional military education, which, however, did not prevent him from smashing many highly educated opponents.
            And from our life we ​​know that often the best specialist in a team is a person not with a higher education, but with secondary consideration.
            Education mind does not add.

            You are right, the formation of the mind does not add as such, the true concept gives adequacy and consistency
          2. 0
            27 February 2013 12: 19
            skullcap, You yourself have already begun to resort to scholasticism and to pour in quotes of authorities that [as an approach] you criticize as if yourself. Yes
            Okay, let's go on the other side.
            Tell me, are liberal values ​​dear to you? Freedom of expression? If so, much becomes clear. Personally, I am an opponent of chaos. I am a supporter of a systematic and holistic scientific picture of the world. What you call for and name even specific works is chaos. The variety of mutually exclusive paragraphs in these works is amazing. If you read several of these opuses on the new chronology, then you can easily find many mutually contradictory facts, which, in fact, completely discredits these works for the simple reason that there is no systematization in them.
            I am all the more incomprehensible to your position, since you yourself say that you are related to science.
            About Murat and Schliemann, I can also give you a lot of counterarguments, as well as about amateurs and professionals, but I just do not want to waste time on banal casuistry. I’ll just ask - do you go to a home-grown doctor for treatment? wink
            I insist that such work should be banned. Either allow it, but with the obligatory branding "The content has nothing to do with science." so as not to embarrass the younger generation.
            1. +3
              27 February 2013 14: 29
              Quote: Iraclius
              as for amateurs and professionals,

              Dear Iraklius! I want to remind you that Little Russia was renamed to Ukraine by quite professional historians, and they filled it with textbooks. And the same notorious Valuevsky decree, which was spoken about with fervor and indignation in Soviet times, like he said "there is no Ukrainian language and cannot be" ... But in the original there is no such thing, and the full text of the decree not listed! So much for the professional historians! And only those few schoolchildren who were really interested in the subject got to the bottom of the truth! How much is it in percentage terms? Now we are disentangling!
              1. -1
                27 February 2013 14: 33
                Everyone is mistaken, but this does not mean that anyone should be involved in history, even a mentally not quite adequate person. Or am I mistaken and education (which has been getting so much lately!) Really is not needed? Do not need graduate school or doctoral studies. And what? All the same, everything is bought and sold ... And so on.
                Such logic frightens me personally.
            2. +2
              27 February 2013 17: 38
              Quote: Iraclius
              Tell me, do you value liberal values? Freedom of expression? If so, then much becomes clear. Personally, I am against chaos.

              I am also a consistent opponent of both rotten values ​​and chaos.
              Quote: Iraclius
              What you call for and call even concrete works is chaos.


              I do not agree. This is not chaos, but an attempt to dig out the truth.
              Chaos is not the only threat to humanity. No less dangerous lies. The choice between chaos and lies is a trap from which to leave. We must seek the truth, approaching it as far as possible.
              Quote: Iraclius
              If you read several such opuses on the new chronology, then you can easily find many mutually contradictory facts, which, in fact, completely discredit these works for the simple reason that they do not contain systematization.

              You, apparently, mean Fomenko? He did not read it, because Petukhov and his friend described him as pseudo-historians. Petukhov has everything very logical. Much more logical, slimmer and more organic than in official science.
              Quote: Iraclius
              I am all the more incomprehensible to your position, since you yourself say that you are related to science.
              I can give you a lot of counter-arguments about Murat and Schliemann, as well as about amateurs and professionals, but I just don’t want to waste time on banal casuistry

              Yes, I have worked in 9 science for years. Therefore, I see that, going to the site in fragments between cases, I took you to a discussion about amateurs and professionals. And this is wrong. Each person comes to science as an amateur and eventually turns into a professional. At the same time, being a professional of the highest class in his direction, he is often an amateur in the next. Although when a job forces one to study neighboring directions, a person becomes a professional in a new field.
              Although in every scientific institution there are people who remain amateurs until retirement, which does not prevent them from feeling completely comfortable in science and being fed from it. But that is another question.
              The fact is that it is wrong to oppose dilettantes and professionals and make irreconcilable enemies out of them. Amateur and professional are different stages of development of a scientist. Who worked in science, knows many examples of how venerable authorities suck on ideas from amateur graduate students or adjuncts.
              Therefore, you have a feeling of casuistry, because we have moved away from the main topic.
              The problem of the scientific nature of history exists and its solution is possible only from independent scientists. No matter how they are called, no matter how different the level of their professional training is, the only hope is for them.
          3. DeerIvanovich
            0
            27 February 2013 13: 23
            Troy Schliemann, it’s not really Troy, or rather not Troy at all
          4. +1
            27 February 2013 13: 35
            Quote: kosopuz
            Education mind does not add.

            Plus. Lomonosov said this before you: "Much knowledge does not teach the mind."
    3. -1
      27 February 2013 13: 42
      At least one "specialist" explained his minus. lol
  10. +1
    27 February 2013 09: 58
    Judging by the minuses of the supporters of academic science, lovers of the Slavic Vedas, Sacred Slavic Stumps and Istukans came running. Ugh ... negative
  11. georg737577
    +3
    27 February 2013 12: 28
    The common phrase that the historian is a science fiction who invents the past appeared for a reason ... And mind you, in the second half of the twentieth century ...
  12. +3
    27 February 2013 13: 15
    I don't like swearing, but the author seems to be an ignoramus.

    To begin with, it would be nice to get acquainted with the GOALS of history as a science. And finally, to understand that the historian is not a chronicler. His task is not to thoroughly describe how it was. His task is to understand WHY it was so.

    From this follows the following postulate: historical science cannot do without PHILOSOPHY. And the focus of historical knowledge depends on the PHILOSOPHICAL CONCEPT prevailing at the moment in society. Yes, that's right. Therefore, we know the history of the Middle Ages, as a rule, from the "anointed to the throne", but the history of the New Age we know more about the affairs of persons of a very lower class.

    Further, one should not blame History for the fact that it is, they say, changeable. Take the trouble to study the history of physics. With its caloric matter, phlogistons, and other world ethers. Even in the 20th century, this "all of itself is objective" science has undergone a radical change associated with the development of the theory of relativity. Moreover, it was not some minor branches that were broken, but literally the ROOT concepts of mass, speed, time, the rule of adding vectors.
    The same with chemistry. Before Mendeleev, she did not have reliable tools at all.
    And as mathematics is generally the pinnacle of fantasy. Sucked out of the finger science about nothing. Has anyone ever seen a number? How to imagine a square root in real life? What about complex numbers that contradict the very rules of mathematics? The very subject of mathematics is an abstraction. And complete invention of mathematical "laws" :)

    History always operates with an OBJECTIVE event. The subject of her research is always unambiguous. BUT!
    Just as a physicist, a historian has a problem: he cannot directly perceive the manifestations of the studied subject. Like a physicist cannot feel or hear radio waves or radiation. Both of them need INTERMEDIARIES. Physics - devices. Historian historical sources. And if the physicist’s device is not working, he will get an incorrect distorted result. The historian is always forced to work with a faulty device, since the quality and nature of the historical source ALWAYS reflect the momentary views of its creator. Even for an honest chronicler, an impossible task would be to give a truly objective picture of the event. Just because he DON'T KNOW her. Can't know. Well, physically, one person cannot fix all sides of even a simple event. And even more so large-scale events such as wars.
    And where there are two - there are already 3 opinions.

    And increasing the number of sources does not always save: try to accurately determine the voltage in the network if you have 12 partially functioning voltmeters in your hands. Will it work out? :) And if you give 24 of the same voltmeter?

    The alternatives are quite pleasant and amusing for themselves, but I beg you, let someone try to prove at least one of their "alternative" theories, go "to the field", start digging, then sit in the archives ... So far, in most cases, we have "highway tanks".
    1. 0
      27 February 2013 13: 55
      abc_alexall right good Wait, you too will now be branded with minuses. lol
    2. +4
      27 February 2013 14: 40
      Alternative specialists -
      Quote: abc_alex
      let someone try to prove at least one of their "alternative" theories


      Quote: abc_alex
      Even for an honest chronicler, an impossible task would be to give a truly objective picture of the event. Just because he DON'T KNOW her.

      In this case, it is still worth paying attention to the alternatives. Because they notice all the bloopers that are piled up in official science. For example, A. Bushkov (not literally) asks a simple question: "Why in one history book we read that the Tatar-Mongol army numbered 100 thousand soldiers, in another - 200 thousand, and some wrote - 300 thousand. And no one does not take into account that one soldier was leading 3 horses with him. On one he was riding, the second - groovy, if it was necessary to quickly enter the battle and on a fresh horse, the third had the necessary luggage. And all the horses needed to be fed! Yes, while the last arrived - the front ones have already eaten all the grass! And why, under such conditions, is it said that the Tatars attacked for the first time in winter? " And none of the historians have so far been able to answer his questions (or did not want to). But a scrupulous analysis of information would help to cleanse real historical facts from all fictions. hi
      1. -1
        27 February 2013 14: 56
        Egoza, with all due respect, you misinterpret the term "alternative" a little. These citizens are not interested in counting the number and quality of troops (which academic science is doing with success!), They are exactly up to the number of horses at Batu or before what and how they cut the stone in Aswan. What for? After all, it is easier to say that there was no yoke, Batu was a Rusian, the pyramids were built by intelligent worms from the constellation Orion ... Well, and so on, incrementally. The defense of the "creativity" of such scribblers by a number of commentators evokes my sincere and genuine amazement. Sincerely. hi
        1. +2
          27 February 2013 15: 46
          Quote: Iraclius
          You misinterpret the term "alternative" a little.

          Perhaps I did not quite correctly put it. And I respect Bushkov, if only for the fact that he was one of the first to speak out against the official "historical" version of the Katyn tragedy as Russia's fault. And he gave a lot of facts and documents that refute this statement. But who is listening to him? He's not a professional historian! You can argue with him, disagree, but some facts are worth paying attention to in order to get to the truth, and not just brush it off. But I do not perceive Fomenko and Nosovsky at all, although (or perhaps because of this) they are trying to put their theory "on a scientific basis."
          1. +2
            27 February 2013 17: 05
            Quote: Egoza
            But I do not perceive Fomenko and Nosovsky at all,

            Lena, Fomenko does not belong to the so-called historical remakes. He has been dealing with the problem of chronology since 1973. He is a mathematician. The methods of mathematical statistics he developed are original. Although the principle of correlation of maxima would be. And the fact that he put forward his version of history is just an assumption, what he himself was talking about. His goal was to arouse interest, to conduct unbiased research, not relying on the authority of the Scaligerian version of the chronology, which is also essentially nothing more than an assumption taken essentially from the ceiling.
      2. 0
        27 February 2013 16: 00
        Yes, and also the Horde warrior brought his family with him. :) And also in any army there is a convoy.
        This is not a mismatch. This is the "instrument error". It is impossible to establish exactly how many soldiers were, since we are not dealing with the event itself, but with its reflection. One chronicler thought that there were 100 thousand of them, another that 200 ... Nobody seriously thinks that someone could COUNT them in real life? Any graduate of the history department knows that the further into the depths of the centuries, the higher the error of everything related to numbers. No one knows exactly how many Spartans Thermopylae had. How many Achaeans have Troy. Nobody knows how many Horde people were in Russia. This is very similar to the accuracy of astronomical observations. The farther from the Earth, the greater the "plus or minus a million". :) Well, how can you look at a person who begins to build theories based on the ERROR of astronomical observations?

        But I have already said alternatives are interesting. Sometimes. But often they only play on the lack of an ordinary reader of a systematic historical education.

        (:) bent over! )
    3. +2
      27 February 2013 17: 05
      You have two wrong promises.
      Quote: abc_alex
      let someone try to prove at least one of their "alternative" theories, go "to the field", start digging, then sit in the archives ...

      Secondly, you are a priori accusing everyone who is not in the state that they were not at archeological excavations. And this is not so.
      But you make the main mistake when comparing history with the natural sciences. The latter, first, are not politicized. Therefore, crises in their development were overcome in a natural, organic way through scientific testing of new hypotheses.
      In addition, natural sciences, as a rule, have the means of objective control. The same physics - the same voltmeters that can be checked for serviceability or to believe and with a certain error they will give you approximately the same result. And not just the opposite, as is often the case in history. With the same civil war, for example.
      Hence your conclusions are wrong.
  13. 0
    27 February 2013 14: 18
    The author confused propaganda that uses historical facts with history itself, which studies the interweaving of past events in the "woven picture" of humanity.
  14. +3
    27 February 2013 16: 04
    The fact that the academic history is confusing and inconsistent, as well as not logical, I understood back in school (history is my favorite subject). As an adult, I realized this fact. There is no history as such; more precisely, it exists, but we will never understand ordinary perception, what actually happened. Historical events are distorted, or even completely erased.
    We, the Russians, need to begin to realize at least that.
  15. 0
    28 February 2013 18: 01
    I agree with the author. The substitution of the history of Russia is not an undeniable fact! Our government cannot restore order in the country when the hands reach history a rhetorical question ...
  16. 0
    28 February 2013 18: 27
    In Russia now there is neither ideology nor a minimally true story in order to instill this knowledge in school. As a result, this will result in an illiterate generation of "boobies". Although, the generation of brainwashed "boobies" already lives in our country
    1. Earthman
      0
      28 February 2013 18: 41
      Quote: Hamsin

      In Russia now there is neither ideology nor a minimally true story in order to instill this knowledge in school. As a result, this will result in an illiterate generation of "boobies". Although, the generation of brainwashed "boobies" already lives in our country

      And such people are often on the site