Bloody warm-up: Ivan the Terrible’s unsuccessful campaign against Kazan in 1549. Background

57
Bloody warm-up: Ivan the Terrible’s unsuccessful campaign against Kazan in 1549. Background

The annexation of Kazan to the Russian state was not an action from the “veni, vidi, vici” series. This process began under Ivan III and continued under Vasily Ivanovich. And their formidable descendant sent troops to the capital of the Volga Khanate three times before the famous capture of Kazan.

The last expensive workout was the campaign at the turn of 1549–1550. It was he who finally revealed all the weaknesses of the Moscow onslaught in the Middle Volga region, which did not allow the Kazan issue to be resolved once and for all.



What changed in this area of ​​Russian foreign policy under Ivan the Terrible, how many forces could participate in the campaign of 1549–1550 and why did it end in failure, what conclusions were drawn in Belokamennaya?

We will try to give answers in a series of articles.

From protectorates to conquest: how the annexation of Kazan became a godly deed for Moscow


The threat of Kazan raids and the influence of Moscow’s enemies on the Volga Khanate, the importance of economic control over the region, the desire to improve the land situation by pacifying the eastern neighbor - all this was relevant even in the time of Ivan III and did not go away under his grandson (we will talk about this in some detail was told in previous publication). Except that for obvious reasons, at the beginning of the 16th century, the Greater Horde factor faded away, and the Nogai factor, already under Vasily III, was relegated to the background.

The main opponents of Belokamennaya in the “tug-of-war of Kazan rope” were the Crimeans. Something else has changed too.

Bust of Ivan the Terrible. Based on Gerasimov's reconstruction
Bust of Ivan the Terrible. Based on Gerasimov's reconstruction

First of all, under Ivan the Terrible, all illusions about half-measures were dispelled and the main thing became clear. Any Moscow protectorate is just another leap over the Crimean back in the Khan’s leapfrog. As soon as they placed their protege on the throne with the help of the pro-Russian bloc of the Kazan aristocracy, the eastern “party” sounded the alarm in Bakhchisarai to remove Moscow’s “handyman”.

Already the first success of Taurida in this field - the accession of Sahib Giray in 1519 - resulted in large-scale anti-Russian protests in the Khanate, when “the Kazan seites and lancers and princes... having robbed the Grand Duke of the guests, they kept them.”

A little later, in 1521, the Kazan people took part in the devastating invasion of the Grand Duchy of Moscow (in the so-called Crimean tornado).

As for the overthrown khans, some of them managed to escape, as the resourceful Kasimov prince Shah Ali did twice. But his nephew Jan-Ali was less fortunate - he was killed.

Crimean tornado. Miniature from the chronicle
Crimean tornado. Miniature from the chronicle

Then the Crimean protege sooner or later received a “reciprocal gift” from Moscow and the pro-Russian Kazan nobility. Thus, Khan Safa Giray, who replaced poor Jan-Ali, was displaced during the uprising of January 1546 and fled.

Already in April 1546, Ivan the Terrible “released him to the kingdom” in Kazan and “planted” the same Shah-Ali from his own hand. His repeated reign lasted... only a month: the expelled protégé of Taurida did not sit idly by and managed to get help from the Nogais and Crimeans. Now Safa invaded the Kazan capital and sat down on the Crimean and Nogai sabers, and Shah Ali had to “make his legs.”

Having returned the throne, the old-new khan did not change the “good” tradition and immediately executed some of the “princes” of the pro-Moscow orientation.

Finally, Ivan the Terrible decided: stop putting up with this! He set out to fully conquer the Volga Khanate. This was the only way to ensure calm on the eastern borders, stop the seizure of the Russian army, and prevent Crimea from making Kazan its training ground for the fight against Moscow.

This situation fully correlated with the ambitions and personal aspirations of young Ivan Vasilyevich, who had just changed his profession or, more precisely, his title.

It’s one thing to simply loudly declare, they say, “I am a king, not by human will, but by God’s command...”, and quite another thing to confirm one’s status with a truly great accomplishment. And what could be a greater feat for a ruler than to conquer an equal monarch and conquer his territory?

Let us recall that formally the Kazan Khan, continuing the Golden Horde tradition, was considered a king. In addition, this would be, albeit partial, revenge for the past humiliations of Rus' during the Horde rule, because Kazan was one of the successors of the Ulus of Jochi.

Looking far ahead, it is not without reason that the author of the Kazan Chronicler will proudly write that no less than the Babylonian king came to congratulate Ivan Vasilyevich on the conquest of the Khanate in 1552.

The need to radically resolve the issue with Kazan was understood not only by the tsar himself, but also by the highest princely-boyar aristocracy (the interest of small service feudal lords - nobles and boyar children - was discussed in past publication) and church. Both were not only sincerely worried about Mother Russia, but were also not averse to receiving a piece of the Kazan pie: land grants and additional peasant strength, new positions, parishes, monastic possessions, and finally, military glory and booty.

It is no wonder why, for absolutely everyone during the reign of Ivan IV, the conquest of the “sub-Heaven land” with its “great and extremely abundant fields and rich in all kinds of flesh” becomes the most godly thing.

To be fair, we note that religious notes in the Kazan context were heard much earlier, since the time of Ivan III. Having become the Third Rome, Moscow officially took upon itself the sacred mission of protecting all fellow believers. Any violence against Orthodox people - be it the theft of peasants into slavery or the robbery of merchants on the Volga by the Tatars - was regarded as a crime against the Lord himself.

However, under Ivan III, such rhetoric slips through, but does not yet pour out of every iron. Yes, in chronicles and other texts regarding the Volga campaigns, even then it is periodically noted that this was being done for the sake of God or the “Christian faith,” etc. But such formulations were common at that time - the same as today “for world peace” or “in the name of democracy.”

Ivan III himself was great in everything except, in modern terms, PR. He simply went towards his goals and eventually established the first Russian protectorate over Kazan in 1487, but did not bother to turn everything into a holy war.

Advance of Russian troops to Kazan in 1487. Horse and ship army. Miniatures of the facial vault. Book XVIII
Advance of Russian troops to Kazan in 1487. Horse and ship army. Miniatures of the facial vault. Book of the XNUMXth century.

But his son and heir Vasily III is already taking certain steps in this direction.

A striking example is the Russian campaign against Kazan in 1523. The Grand Duke, together with his brothers and the voivodeship corps, set out from Belokamennaya on July 28. Their route ran through Pereyaslavl-Zalessky, Yuryev, Suzdal, Vladimir, where they stayed for two weeks. As he advanced, the sovereign visited famous shrines and performed prayers.

This was done not only so that God’s grace would descend on the Orthodox army and overshadow Russian sabers, arrows and cannons. At that time, Moscow “image makers” were actively working on the image of an exemplary Christian ruler, favored by the Almighty himself.

The thesis about the religious background of the Russian-Kazan conflicts finally took shape only in the 40s of the XNUMXth century under Metropolitan Macarius. This was discussed a lot in the church environment and journalism. The famous Russian “blogger” of the XNUMXth century, Ivan Peresvetov, spoke about Moscow’s duty to “stand firmly against the infidels for the Christian faith” and spread Orthodoxy to new territories more often than Marcus Porcius Cato spoke about the destruction of Carthage.

And again, under the entire religious shell one can see a completely pragmatic and worldly basis.

“And even if such a piece of land were reconciled, it would still be impossible to leave it like that because of its fertility,” Peresvetov said, as if curtly.

Under Grozny, the foreign economic need for strict control over Kazan also intensified. Even under Ivan III, the Volga-Caspian trade direction was rather an alluring exotic and a pleasant opportunity to diversify sales and imports. After all, the importance of Western markets has not yet decreased - numerous obstacles and sanctions will begin there a little later.

Trade and diplomatic interaction with the West, on the contrary, developed rapidly, since the suddenly risen Moscow was a promising ally against the Ottoman “shaker of the universe.” The Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire even saw in the young Russian state, if not his future colony, then at least a sphere of influence.

Holy Roman Emperor, Maximilian I of Habsburg. Portrait by A. Durer
Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I of Habsburg. Portrait by A. Durer

Then an energetic exchange of embassies will begin. Ambrogio Cantarini, Johann Fabri and other Europeans are actively writing narratives where Moscow is just like a ghost with a motor from the immortal Soviet cartoon - wild but cute. Yes, these are schismatics, and in terms of civilization they are far from Europe. But look how strong they are, since they survive in their forests and snows, how pure in spirit and thoughts! You just need to draw them into your orbit, push them to accept the church union - and you can safely be friends until the grave.
Already under Vasily III, the illusions of Europeans regarding the “Muscovites” dissipated. They don’t want to be harnessed to the anti-Turkish league without any benefit and accept church union; they turn their nose up at the kingdom status granted by the Habsburgs - barbarians, and that’s all!

And then there is Polish-Lithuanian propaganda with its “horror stories” about the vast hordes of Moscow savages, who, according to the “scientist” Matvey Mekhovsky, “drink and eat... until they can no longer distinguish their head from their butt.” What the hell do they care about equal trade, supplies of horse stock, tin, etc.? It is better to impose sanctions on them and not sell anything that is needed for military affairs.

In the first third of the 16th century, the Livonian Order began to especially zealously block the entry into the Russian state of strategic goods that were not here simply for natural reasons. Moreover, in negotiations with Moscow, the Livonians either subtly or quite strongly hint that such a policy is dictated by their overlord - the Holy Roman Emperor.

Economic ties with the Ottoman power, which even under Ivan III had been Moscow’s main counterparty in the eastern direction, also gradually weakened. Among other things, from there the Russian state received in-demand weapons, damask blades and ingots, fabrics, and Indian spices in transit.

But the efforts of the Crimean Khanate, a vassal of Turkey, which from a certain moment tried in every possible way to push their heads against the Mother See and Istanbul, gradually bore fruit. Largely at the Crimean instigation, the same Kazan was declared an Ottoman yurt in 1524, so now Russian and Turkish interests have already officially clashed in the Volga arena.

Looking far ahead, in 1569 it would come to the first Ottoman campaign on the territory of the Muscovite kingdom and the siege of Astrakhan. All this did not contribute to an increase in trade between the two states - rather, on the contrary.

Sultan of the Ottoman Empire Suleiman I the Magnificent. Portrait of Titian's workshop
Sultan of the Ottoman Empire Suleiman I the Magnificent. Portrait of Titian's workshop

So the Russian state had to completely reorient itself towards the Volga-Caspian direction.

It was necessary to easily purchase cheap Tatar horses in Kazan and Astrakhan, go along the Volga to the Caspian Sea and get to Persia, Shirvan, Khiva, and Bukhara. To do this, it was necessary to improve the Volga trade artery as much as possible - set up outposts there, build cities, deal with river piracy, and rein in the bands of Cossacks and Nogais. Even the most tenacious protectorate did not allow such management - it was necessary to fully include Kazan, and then Astrakhan, into the Russian state.

Without the final conquest of the Middle Volga region, it was impossible to secure their positions in Perm, the Kama region, and also to go further “into the depths of the Siberian ores” in order to obtain their own valuable natural resources for casting guns, making ammunition and not depend on supplies from the West.

Sultan of the Ottoman Empire Suleiman I the Magnificent. Portrait of Titian's workshop

How tax oppression in Kazan played into Moscow’s hands


The signals coming from the Khanate itself also gave the Moscow Tsar determination.

In addition to a handful of loyal Tatar feudal lords, peoples controlled by the khan began to openly go over to Moscow’s side.

It should be noted here that the Kazan Khanate was an explosive mixture of the ruling Tatars and the Bulgar natives subject to them - Mordovians, Cheremis, Chuvash, Votyaks (Udmurts), Bashkirs and others. They all paid yasak (fur tax) and other taxes to the central government. Massive dissatisfaction with the tax burden, natural and labor obligations added spice to the internal situation of the Kazan state. For example, the yasak Chuvash paid about 20 permanent taxes to the treasury.

Sultan of the Ottoman Empire Suleiman I the Magnificent. Portrait of Titian's workshop

For some native Bulgar feudal lords, Russian expansion became the spark for their own struggle against the khan. The key phrase here is precisely “native feudal lords”: one should not imagine the revolutionary impulse of the indigenous Bulgarian peoples with a “world fire in the chest.” And the khan’s power was not such a yoke for everyone. The left-bank (meadow) Cheremis felt very good, since they could sell the furs obtained in their dense forests to both domestic and foreign markets (at the international fair on Gostiny Island).

But the right-bank (mountain) Cheremis received mainly duties and Kazan, Moscow and Nogai troops scurrying around their territories - this is how these lands were “successfully” located. During military clashes, they were often the first to come under attack and were subjected to devastation; they were often involved in cutting down forests, building bridges, and maintaining roads.

Moreover, these “most skillful shooters,” as Sigismund Herberstein writes about them, were constantly mobilized to participate in wars they did not need. It is not surprising that in 1546 the Mountain Cheremis, together with the Chuvash, rebelled against the khan and, in fact, ceased to obey him. A little later, their rapid rapprochement with Moscow, which has become an alternative to the Kazan government, will begin.

Deciding to strike while the iron was hot, at the end of autumn 1548, Ivan IV gathered a large army, a representative artillery outfit and organized a large-scale campaign against Kazan.

Alas, it ended in nothing, as chroniclers report, due to abnormally warm and rainy weather. On the way to the khan's capital, many artillery pieces fell under the melting ice of the Volga, and some of the warriors drowned.

Without waiting for the “good procession,” the troops had to return to Nizhny Novgorod, where they arrived on January 10.

But the failure, as subsequent events would show, only provoked the Russian Tsar even more.

The last impetus for the campaign of 1549: the danger of the washing chambers


Another window of opportunity for resolving the above-mentioned problems was opened by the sudden death of Khan Safa Giray at the age of 42 in early 1549.

As it is said in the “Kazan Chronicler,” the khan “killed himself in his lame clothes”: with drunken eyes, he slipped and hit the “washhouse with his head.”

In general, for stories The details of the death of poor Safa are not so important: whether he died on a white horse in the thick of battle or through negligence in his own latrine. However, there is an interesting point here related to the perception of information from a source by different people to the extent of their national bugbears.

For example, researcher S. Kh. Alishev writes:

“This message is formulated in the usual mockingly evil tone with which he (the author of the Kazan Chronicler) describes all the failures and misfortunes of the Kazan people in general.”

Other researchers and publicists also note the bias of the “chronicler” in this fragment and a number of other episodes.

We admit that the author of the Kazan Chronicler, being a subject of the Russian Tsar, quite openly “roots for the Moscow team.” And he’s also good at making up fables for the sake of a catchphrase.

But, returning to the fate of Safa Giray, could the “chronicler” simply play around and come up with something like “death from hemorrhoidal colic”? Much more in his spirit, he tried to frame everything as God’s punishment for atrocities against the Russian sovereign and Orthodox people. To do this, the author would have resorted to the method of centon-paraphrase borrowing, favorite among all the chroniclers of that time: why pull something out of thin air if everything is already written in authoritative biblical texts, ancient epics or Scandinavian sagas?

Let us take, for example, the description of the serious illness of Khan Muhammad-Emin, who died in 1518, from the same “Kazan Chronicler”:

“And for this crime of the Tsar of Kazan, God struck him with an incurable ulcer from the head, and a more severe pain, lying on his bed for 3 years, all boiling with pus and worms, and the doctor and the magicians were not able to heal him from that ulcer, neither the queen who deceived him, nor there are many of its rows, a stench for the sake of the evil emanating from it.”

Such a “case history,” although it does not allow doctors to make an accurate diagnosis, clearly refers to the case of Herod the Great and warns about the harm to the body and soul of beating infants. The latter are played by Moscow merchants who were beaten in Kazan by that same Muhammad-Emin in 1505.

Kazan Khan Muhammad-Emin. Reconstruction based on the Khan's skull
Kazan Khan Muhammad-Emin. Reconstruction based on the Khan's skull

And what message is there in Safa Giray’s head, broken from a hangover, other than the harm of excessive libations?

It is quite possible that in this case the author of the monument actually reflected some contemporary “scandals, intrigues, investigations” regarding this story.

One way or another, the Kazan Khan “was no longer in his stomach,” and the throne was inherited by his two-year-old son Utyamish Giray. The central power in the Khanate sharply weakened, and the pro-Russian bloc of the Kazan aristocracy raised its head and looked again towards Belokamennaya.

How exactly Ivan IV took advantage of the current situation will be discussed in detail in the next publication.

Sources:
Postnikov's chronicler // Complete collection of Russian chronicles. T. 34. M., 1978.
The story of the Kazan kingdom. Kazan chronicler // Complete collection of Russian chronicles. T. 19. M., 2000.
Herberstein S. Notes on Moscow Affairs. Edition 1908 // Eastern literature. Medieval historical sources of the East and West. URL: http://www.vostlit.info.
Andrei Kurbsky, The Story of the Grand Duke of Moscow.
Works of Ivan Semenovich Peresvetov // Library of Literature of Ancient Rus'. T. 9. The end of the XNUMXth - first half of the XNUMXth century.
Matvey Mekhovsky. Treatise on two Sarmatias. // vostlit.info.

References:
Alishev S. Kh. Kazan and Moscow: interstate relations in the 1995th–XNUMXth centuries. Kazan, XNUMX.
Ilyushin B. A. “War of the Summer 7014.” Moscow-Kazan conflict 1505–1507. N. Novgorod, 2018.
Fechner M.V. Trade of the Russian state with the countries of the East in the 1956th century. // Proceedings of the State Historical Museum. M., XNUMX.
Filyushkin A.I. Vasily III. M., 2010.
Florya B. N. Ivan the Terrible. M. 1999.
Zimin A. A. Russia during the time of Ivan the Terrible. M. 1982.
57 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +4
    24 March 2024 06: 52
    Who is this intended for?!..
    Having read to a certain point, a lot of disgusting rhetoric has accumulated in the text. The latter put an end to reading - I stopped reading this historical kitsch:
    At that time, Moscow “image makers” were actively working on the image of an exemplary Christian ruler...

    Who did the author mean by calling "Moscow image makers"?! What is he talking about - about the Orthodox Church led by the Patriarch?!!!...
    It looks like the author has completely misled things.
    1. +3
      24 March 2024 09: 41
      Thank you very much for your response. Your opinion is very important to me. I will definitely take your wishes into account, and at the same time I will send you... to the Tsargrad channel - you will definitely like it there. I can also recommend several essays on quotation marks and figurative meaning as additional literature.
  2. +2
    24 March 2024 07: 21
    The article is written cheerfully and cheerfully, which is definitely a plus.
    I would like to draw attention to the fact of the “conceptuality” of that era.
    Against the article, one gets the impression that having taken Kazan several times and placed a ruler they liked on the throne, when the Russian army retreats, the “partners” are “abandoning” the Moscow prince over and over again.
    But the Moscow prince acts in the Horde paradigm.
    The horde, weakened, disbanded. Ivan III conquers Kazan. Agreements are concluded that define the responsibilities of the parties. All!
    Now Kazan is a vassal dependent on Moscow.
    In exactly the same way, the Tatars have been building relationships since the 13th century in Rus'. Having issued a label for reign, they wait for the fulfillment of contractual obligations.
    And Ivan IV goes to collect his own. And he takes it.
    1. +3
      24 March 2024 09: 07
      Thanks for your feedback. Well, you are partly right, to some extent the situation was like this. But with very big nuances - after all, the actions of the strengthened Moscow in relation to Kazan were not a complete copy of the actions of the khans of the Golden Horde in its best times, although, of course, they adopted a lot from them. Yes, they adopted the principle of “divide and conquer”, relying on different blocs. But still, the blocks of the ruling aristocracy in Kazan, on which the Moscow great princes relied and with the help of which they placed their henchmen on the throne, are not the princes and various branches of the dynasty (Rurikovich), which Batu and his followers manipulated with the help of labels. Here they even rather followed Ivan Kalita, who himself, being subordinate to the Horde, began to look for support in various aristocratic blocs within the Horde itself in order to influence the khan through them. Under him, they began to actively present “funerations” (diplomatic gifts) not only to the khans themselves, but also to their entourage at court, the nobles, to “feed them” so that they would lobby the interests of the prince (for example, the same Ivan Kalita) at the khan’s court, they whispered to him , what is needed, so that the label is given to whomever needs it. Some Horde nobles almost received “salary” (relatively speaking, of course) from Moscow in the form of such commemorations. And then, when Moscow had already become stronger, this practice began to be used in individual fragments of the Golden Horde - in Crimea, Kazan, and the Nogai Horde. Only now this was done not in order to receive favor from the Tatar Khan in the form of a label, etc., but in order to spread their own (Moscow) influence on these Tatar yurts in such an “undercover” way. It’s not all about fighting and conquering – you can also take your own by playing political games. The khans of the united Golden Horde, yes, also divided and conquered, relied on different sides, but still they did it more from a position of strength and less “undercover”. Still, they (the khans of the Golden Horde) had much more leverage over the Russian princes, who were not just their vassals, but formally subjects, since the Horde conquered Rus' and subjugated it, they paid a tax (the exit is not even a tribute, but tax), etc.. In the case of Kazan, it is still a protectorate, and a vassal is not a subject. So we had to act more flexibly - the Grand Duke did not have “Batu’s” levers of influence on the Kazan Khan even during the periods of the Russian protectorate, it was still an agreement of the parties (albeit an agreement much more beneficial for Moscow). This is to the question that Ivan 3 did not conquer Kazan, as you wrote, but was the first to take the capital of the Khanate in 1487, installed his protege there and established a protectorate, but this was not a conquest, as would happen in 1552. By the way, purely formally in diplomatic documents, even during the time of the Moscow protectorate, the Kazan Khan (the same Muhammad Emin) was called the “brother” of the Grand Duke (that is, an equal), and this would be a diplomatic paradox. Because in fact, Kazan was a vassal of Moscow, and at that time the Moscow Grand Duke was called “brother” to the Turkish Sultan and the Holy Roman Emperor. And here Kazan is a vassal in fact - and also a “brother”.
      And about the “partners who cheated”. Yes, that happened too. Moreover, many beks and murzas periodically ran from the pro-eastern to the pro-Russian party and back in order to gain their own benefit. What is it worth? Bek Kalimet, who in 1498 entered into a conspiracy with the Siberian king Mamuk, removed the Moscow protege Muhammad Emin, and then, when it smelled like something was fried, repented to Moscow and, in fact, became the face of the pro-Russian bloc in Kazan. But mainly after the installation of the Moscow protege on the throne, the pro-eastern bloc became more active and, with the help of the Crimea or the Nogais, removed the objectionable khan and placed his own protege on the throne. Then, in response, the pro-Russian bloc raised its head and did the same, but imprisoned its protege. As in physics, an action gives rise to a reaction that is equal in strength... And yes, until Moscow fully conquered Kazan, it could not fully control it in order to avoid these “swings”.
  3. +1
    24 March 2024 08: 40
    after the death of Constantinople, Moscow takes on the role of the city of the main guardian of Christianity. It was after the death of Constantinople that Moscow was “appointed” as the Third Rome. However, Moscow was compared to the New Jerusalem even before the death of Constantinople, especially after its death. Thus, Moscow had the duty and honor of becoming the main city of true Christianity, which correctly glorifies Christ. And this means the spread of Orthodoxy and the fight against the Busurmans. And it became clear that the Kazan Khanate is a center that is causing obvious and dangerous harm to the Christian faith and this threat must be eliminated. It was precisely in those times that the symbols and terms of the transformation of the Russian state into Holy Rus' appeared. So from Ivan the Third and Vasily the Third, Ivan the Terrible, who took the baton, made campaigns against Kazan and conquered Kazan with his second campaign, fulfilling the duty and responsibility, first of all, of the guardian and a defender of the Orthodox faith with its spread, to which Moscow was also obliged by the status of the New Jerusalem, after the death of Constantinople.
    Although, to tell the truth, I really didn’t like that the author at the beginning of the article calls these campaigns against Kazan “bloody”... trying to lead us on the wrong trail from the reasons for the campaigns.
    1. +3
      24 March 2024 09: 31
      1) I didn’t call the hike “bloody”, but the “warm-up”. In the sense that during the unsuccessful campaign, many people died, including from Moscow, and, alas, without a positive result in the form of the conquest of Kazan. This is not a condemnation of Moscow’s actions, but, in general, regret that the campaign was not a success. But, again, everyone sees what they want, based on their own “fads”.
      2). Ivan the Terrible conquered Kazan not on his second campaign, but on his fourth. In 1546, he installed Shah Ali as a protege in Kazan, then there was the unsuccessful campaign of 1548, and then the also unsuccessful campaign of 1549-1550, which I will talk about in more detail. It's worth checking the facts.
      3). About the Third Rome - thanks for the information from Wikipedia and school textbooks, very interesting))
  4. -3
    24 March 2024 10: 20
    Somehow the author missed the fact that the Crimean and Kazan raids ravaged Rus' for centuries. And how long could you tolerate this? What kind of manners of Russophobia are these? Is the infection emerging from America?
    1. +2
      24 March 2024 10: 55
      Why did you, Kazan and Crimean people, carry out raids? I didn’t even know, thanks Cap) Apparently I’m just writing this “Finally, Ivan the Terrible decided: stop putting up with this! He set out to fully conquer the Volga Khanate. This was the only way to ensure calm on the eastern borders, stop the seizure of the Russian army, and prevent Crimea should make Kazan its training ground for the fight against Moscow." What do you think this is about, if not about constant raids, about football matches?))
      1. -7
        24 March 2024 11: 10
        Should I also answer about football matches? Is flooding welcome?
        1. +3
          24 March 2024 11: 35
          Well, you can answer about football matches - as always, find fault with nonsense and wording and pull it into some kind of bugbear))) or you can essentially answer something constructively. For example, I already clarified about the distortion of facts. I don’t consider myself the ultimate truth. I could be wrong. And even venerable historians, whose works I used and indicated in the list of references, could have made a mistake somewhere. I was already glad that now they would tell me where the mistake was. But no... Just loud statements. Apparently, flooding is all you can do. So flood to your health)))
  5. -7
    24 March 2024 10: 23
    Quote: North 2
    after the death of Constantinople, Moscow takes on the role of the city of the main guardian of Christianity. It was after the death of Constantinople that Moscow was “appointed” as the Third Rome. However, Moscow was compared to the New Jerusalem even before the death of Constantinople, especially after its death. Thus, Moscow had the duty and honor of becoming the main city of true Christianity, which correctly glorifies Christ. And this means the spread of Orthodoxy and the fight against the Busurmans. And it became clear that the Kazan Khanate is a center that is causing obvious and dangerous harm to the Christian faith and this threat must be eliminated. It was precisely in those times that the symbols and terms of the transformation of the Russian state into Holy Rus' appeared. So from Ivan the Third and Vasily the Third, Ivan the Terrible, who took the baton, made campaigns against Kazan and conquered Kazan with his second campaign, fulfilling the duty and responsibility, first of all, of the guardian and a defender of the Orthodox faith with its spread, to which Moscow was also obliged by the status of the New Jerusalem, after the death of Constantinople.
    Although, to tell the truth, I really didn’t like that the author at the beginning of the article calls these campaigns against Kazan “bloody”... trying to lead us on the wrong trail from the reasons for the campaigns.

    Everything in the article is saturated with Russophobia and a lot of distortions of facts. Where are the moderators?
    1. +5
      24 March 2024 10: 48
      I won’t say anything about “Russophobia.” I'm not used to answering nonsense. As for the distortion of facts - okay, you are apparently an expert on the subject) What facts are distorted and how exactly? Give your reasons, as they say)
      1. -7
        24 March 2024 10: 59
        Read the answers from the experts. And bother to remember about the brutal raids of the Tatars and Crimeans, before writing destructively about the bloodiness of the Russians.
        1. +5
          24 March 2024 11: 29
          What specialists? Who are you talking about? That is, you refer to “experts”, apparently because you yourself are not an expert in the subject? And at the same time you talk about “distortion of facts”, without naming which ones) It turns out, according to formal logic, you yourself admit that you cannot say what is distorted and what is not. You're not an expert. You generally have problems with formal logic. I write directly about the Kazan raids, and even in your own words I write on behalf of Ivan the Terrible: stop putting up with this! And I write that the only solution was to conquer Kazan. And you blame me for not knowing about the raids. Oh, what would I do without such “specialists”. It would be interesting to read at least one publication by such specialists, preferably with a list of references and sources)
          1. -2
            24 March 2024 11: 31
            It was explained to you in the comments. But you didn't read them. And persist in being stupid. Continue.
            1. +6
              24 March 2024 13: 40
              Thank you, I will definitely continue. Being dumb is always welcome. By the way, to the question of “stupid”)) Here is the very first sentence of the first paragraph after the lead. “The threat of Kazan raids and the influence of Moscow’s enemies on the Volga Khanate, the importance of economic control over the region, the desire to improve the land situation by pacifying the eastern neighbor - all this was relevant even in the time of Ivan III and did not go away under his grandson (enough about this was described in detail in the previous publication). And then “A little later, in 1521, the people of Kazan took part in the devastating invasion of the Grand Duchy of Moscow (in the so-called Crimean tornado).” This is an example of how I “keep silent” about the Kazan raids)) ) I thought that you at least read a couple of paragraphs before throwing... criticism, of course. But no, apparently the title was enough for you) And rightly so, why bother.
              1. -2
                24 March 2024 13: 48
                Here you write: To be fair, we note that religious notes in the Kazan context were heard much earlier, since the time of Ivan III. Having become the Third Rome, Moscow officially took upon itself the sacred mission of protecting all fellow believers.""" And suddenly you don’t understand where the mention of the Koran comes from. Why is this so?
              2. -6
                24 March 2024 14: 06
                Yes. Let's skip the title. Third paragraph, we’re not going far: “The last bloody warm-up was the campaign at the turn of 1549–1550. It was he who finally revealed all the weaknesses of the Moscow onslaught in the Middle Volga region, which did not allow the Kazan issue to be resolved once and for all.” Where does this set of cliches come from? It echoes the solution to the Jewish question, final and irrevocable *)) And this bloody gebnya from Grandmother, who recently quit her skates? Warm-up, of course, from football. Bloody warm-up - copyright. Understand. Yes, you are a master! And not just pee and pee. The Crimean tornado is also yours, no less. Well, it's not a cliché...
                1. +6
                  24 March 2024 14: 18
                  So, okay, it was funny to troll you, but now the nonsense is too much. For the illiterate, the “Crimean tornado” regarding this campaign is an expression by the historian A.A. Zimin, one of the most outstanding researchers of early modern Russian history. Apparently you haven't heard of this. Best wishes)
          2. -6
            24 March 2024 11: 46
            This is yours: "
            And what is the message in Safa Giray’s head, broken from a hangover, other than the harm of excessive libations?” Very interesting and instructive. Specialist? ...
            1. +5
              24 March 2024 12: 50
              So what is the claim to this fragment? You can take any paragraph, word, or even a space out of context and make some kind of claim. What exactly confuses you here? Let's discuss how you understood this outrageous moment in the general context and what exactly is wrong there)) By the way, the theme of libations in the Kazan Chronicler is constantly visible and has a certain meaning there too. I am ready to listen to constructive criticism from a knowledgeable person)))
  6. -4
    24 March 2024 10: 41
    Quote: Pavel Kanaev
    Thanks for your feedback. Well, you are partly right, to some extent the situation was like this. But with very big nuances - after all, the actions of the strengthened Moscow in relation to Kazan were not a complete copy of the actions of the khans of the Golden Horde in its best times, although, of course, they adopted a lot from them. Yes, they adopted the principle of “divide and conquer”, relying on different blocs. But still, the blocks of the ruling aristocracy in Kazan, on which the Moscow great princes relied and with the help of which they placed their henchmen on the throne, are not the princes and various branches of the dynasty (Rurikovich), which Batu and his followers manipulated with the help of labels. Here they even rather followed Ivan Kalita, who himself, being subordinate to the Horde, began to look for support in various aristocratic blocs within the Horde itself in order to influence the khan through them. Under him, they began to actively present “funerations” (diplomatic gifts) not only to the khans themselves, but also to their entourage at court, the nobles, to “feed them” so that they would lobby the interests of the prince (for example, the same Ivan Kalita) at the khan’s court, they whispered to him , what is needed, so that the label is given to whomever needs it. Some Horde nobles almost received “salary” (relatively speaking, of course) from Moscow in the form of such commemorations. And then, when Moscow had already become stronger, this practice began to be used in individual fragments of the Golden Horde - in Crimea, Kazan, and the Nogai Horde. Only now this was done not in order to receive favor from the Tatar Khan in the form of a label, etc., but in order to spread their own (Moscow) influence on these Tatar yurts in such an “undercover” way. It’s not all about fighting and conquering – you can also take your own by playing political games. The khans of the united Golden Horde, yes, also divided and conquered, relied on different sides, but still they did it more from a position of strength and less “undercover”. Still, they (the khans of the Golden Horde) had much more leverage over the Russian princes, who were not just their vassals, but formally subjects, since the Horde conquered Rus' and subjugated it, they paid a tax (the exit is not even a tribute, but tax), etc.. In the case of Kazan, it is still a protectorate, and a vassal is not a subject. So we had to act more flexibly - the Grand Duke did not have “Batu’s” levers of influence on the Kazan Khan even during the periods of the Russian protectorate, it was still an agreement of the parties (albeit an agreement much more beneficial for Moscow). This is to the question that Ivan 3 did not conquer Kazan, as you wrote, but was the first to take the capital of the Khanate in 1487, installed his protege there and established a protectorate, but this was not a conquest, as would happen in 1552. By the way, purely formally in diplomatic documents, even during the time of the Moscow protectorate, the Kazan Khan (the same Muhammad Emin) was called the “brother” of the Grand Duke (that is, an equal), and this would be a diplomatic paradox. Because in fact, Kazan was a vassal of Moscow, and at that time the Moscow Grand Duke was called “brother” to the Turkish Sultan and the Holy Roman Emperor. And here Kazan is a vassal in fact - and also a “brother”.
    And about the “partners who cheated”. Yes, that happened too. Moreover, many beks and murzas periodically ran from the pro-eastern to the pro-Russian party and back in order to gain their own benefit. What is it worth? Bek Kalimet, who in 1498 entered into a conspiracy with the Siberian king Mamuk, removed the Moscow protege Muhammad Emin, and then, when it smelled like something was fried, repented to Moscow and, in fact, became the face of the pro-Russian bloc in Kazan. But mainly after the installation of the Moscow protege on the throne, the pro-eastern bloc became more active and, with the help of the Crimea or the Nogais, removed the objectionable khan and placed his own protege on the throne. Then, in response, the pro-Russian bloc raised its head and did the same, but imprisoned its protege. As in physics, an action gives rise to a reaction that is equal in strength... And yes, until Moscow fully conquered Kazan, it could not fully control it in order to avoid these “swings”.

    Sura from the Koran: if you see that you can be betrayed, betray first. Blah blah around this is your texts. The bottom line.
    1. +6
      24 March 2024 11: 08
      You can’t say anything with reason) And even a link to the source in the form of the Koran. True, how this is related to the topic is not entirely clear. Apparently, you won’t say what facts and how I distorted))) Argumentation, evidence base - it’s all boring. shaking the air is another matter)) Write more comments like this. I will also answer with a loud quote: “A wise man will learn more from a madman than a madman from a wise man.” The sage here, however, can simply be replaced by an “adequate person”. So your comments are very instructive. Thank you))))0
      1. -4
        24 March 2024 11: 28
        Amazing. In the title is the word ... prehistory" and then a couple of words about the bloodiness of the Russians. A quote is given and then a replacement in the paradigm of greatness and exclusivity. I don’t hear the sound Y in the word prehistory. Do you stubbornly want to get personal?
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. +1
          24 March 2024 12: 00
          I responded to “experts” in quoting well-worn truths from Wikipedia. Again, I would like to look at at least one work, an article by these “specialists”. Or are comments on someone else’s article already being made by a specialist?))))) About the “bloodyness,” he explained to the specialist that this does not mean that Moscow carried out bloody colonization. This is a "bloody workout". The point is that the campaign was unsuccessful and many people died, but the goal of the campaign was not achieved. And this is not condemnation, but regret. But, as I wrote to the “specialist” in copying truisms in the comments, everyone perceives it to the extent of their bogeys and brainwashing) In fact, you were hooked by one word, which you misunderstood in the context, and that’s all. But in fact you can’t say anything intelligible. And I’m even willing to bet that they didn’t even read the article properly. This is typical for the “offended” - why read “a lot of bukof” - at the very beginning there is a “comma” to which you can get attached and shout.
          1. The comment was deleted.
  7. +2
    24 March 2024 12: 09
    Quote: Luenkov
    Sura from the Koran: if you see that you can be betrayed, betray first. Blah blah around this is your texts. The bottom line.

    Do I want to get personal?))) And this means it’s not getting personal))) I’m not even talking about accusations of Russophobia))) Nothing personal, you just need to shout. Write something yourself, and, quite possibly, you will learn a lot of interesting things about your “Russophobia” from the same armchair experts)
  8. +1
    24 March 2024 12: 45
    Quote: Luenkov
    hourly

    “Chasnaya” in the sense of “private” or is it from the word “hour”? No, I don’t understand where you saw the hysteria. There is no need to attribute your problems to me) On the contrary, I’m calmly trolling you, the more comments, the better. Thank you for your concern and reminder to go to the restroom. Just from there. And fortunately, like Safa Giray, he did not hit the washhouse.
  9. +2
    24 March 2024 12: 59
    Quote: Luenkov
    Go take a pee or something?

    Or did you here recommend that I not go to the restroom, but “pee” and write another article?) If so, I’m glad you’re interested. I'm already working on a sequel.
  10. 0
    24 March 2024 13: 30
    I have a positive attitude towards the author after the first article.
    I didn't like this article. The author took too long to harness it, there was a lot of self-repetition (why talk about the importance of taking Kazan again if it was in the previous article). The entire backstory fits well in the last chapter of the article and the article itself is empty.
    I didn’t like the “Intelligence Questioning” course. Why all these “bloggers”, “image makers”, “sanctions”?
    Is it necessary to “ground” the article with such techniques to the point of profanation? The history of the confrontation with Kazan is quite interesting in itself, the author’s language in the first article is quite lively. What else do you need? A decent sci-pop in the History section will also work in the classical form, it is not necessary to cosplay some Klim Zhukov.
    1. 0
      24 March 2024 14: 07
      Well, at least you don’t recommend “going to pee” and don’t call him a Russophobe - and thank you for that) Thank you for the positive assessment of the previous material. Nice. Regarding criticism, I won’t argue; it’s impossible to always be liked. I will note only 2 points. The previous article that you liked was written in exactly the same style. There they blamed me for the “timeline”)))) There is no difference here, so, well, maybe depending on the mood. It worked there, but the same thing here - no. I have great respect for Klim Sanych and collaborate with him, but there is no cosplay here. And before I became acquainted with his work, I moved away from the burdensome academic presentation. I believe that even monographs can be written in a living, modern language, without looking for meaning. As, for example, the same Filyushkin does. So, it's a matter of taste. Moreover, the quotation marks emphasize the figurative meaning where necessary. And the words “sanctions” and others have long been ingrained. Yes, these are borrowings, but so are “hero”, “team” and another 2/3 of the Russian language (here I just emphasize that there are a lot of such words) too, and many have no analogues. There are stupid and ridiculous borrowings, but I don’t use them. But I’m not used to replacing “galoshes with wet shoes.” Here, again, it’s purely a matter of taste, so everyone has the right to their own opinion. Regarding self-repetitions. Firstly, although I refer to the previous article, this is not its continuation, it is a separate mini-cycle. Therefore, I deliberately mentioned some of the thoughts about the main military-political-economic factors of Russian-Kazan relations here again, so that it is not necessary to refer to the previous article, but optionally. In addition, if you compare the two articles, they are not entirely self-repeating. Yes, both there and there were factors that influenced the relationship. But in the first article - their condition in the 60-70s of the XNUMXth century. And here - about their condition at the time of Ivan the Terrible and what has changed. If you read the articles one after another, then there is no repetition. Although, again, I won’t argue - everyone’s opinion and perception may be different. In any case, in the next part I will move directly to the hike. Everything will be new there)
      1. +2
        24 March 2024 14: 21
        Well, at least you don’t recommend “going to pee” and don’t call him a Russophobe - and thank you)

        Just ignore these idiots
        But I’m not used to replacing “galoshes with wet shoes.”

        The complaint was that modernization of terms was used to suit the market situation.
        Peresvet is not a blogger, but a writer and propagandist. The rest is from the evil one
        1. +2
          24 March 2024 18: 07
          By the way, about “sanctions” - this is exactly what all researchers now say about who, for example, is involved in the Livonian Wars. This is exactly what they were - sanctions and embargoes, trade bans, blocking the entry of a number of goods, etc. Moreover, those economic sanctions that during the time of Vasily III started from the West in the person of Livonia, the Hansa and, above all, Habsburgs, and the current sanctions have direct continuity - this is, in a global sense, the same process. It was then that the information war began, which periodically turns heated on various fronts, coupled with sanctions and economic obstacles. Yes, the rhetoric changes, the details change, but essentially it’s the same thing. So this is not a conjuncture, but simply calling things by their proper names.
          1. +2
            24 March 2024 18: 48
            So this is not a conjuncture, but simply calling things by their proper names.

            This is exactly the situation. When modern realities in the form of the position of Western countries are mechanically transferred to another historical period immediately, causing certain associations in readers. Moreover, the associations generated by the modern propaganda narrative.
            and the current sanctions have direct continuity - this is, in a global sense, the same process.

            Direct succession is when B follows from A and the whole process can be continuously tracked in time. The centuries-old history of trade and technology movement between Russia and the West does not fit into the sanctions scheme. History generally doesn’t fit well into schemes.
            e economic sanctions, which during the time of Vasily III started from the West in the person of Livonia, the Hanseatic League and, above all, the Habsburgs

            Where can I read about the Habsburg sanctions?

            All countries at all times jealously guarded their technological secrets and competitive advantages. And they made sure that as little as possible fell to hostile neighbors. By calling the delay, say, the interception of German craftsmen in Livonia on their way to Russia, sanctions, a researcher from the perspective of history slides into demagoguery
  11. +1
    24 March 2024 14: 31
    Quote: Engineer
    modernization of terms to suit the market situation.

    Here you are partly right. I will not hide that sometimes such goals are pursued in order to reach different audiences. Especially if we talk about young audiences. Many people just make it clearer. That's why I put it in quotes. Peresvetov is a publicist, and one of the first active Russian secular publicists. This was meant here because today publicists are strongly associated with bloggers. So the analogy in this was with modernity. Well, here, again, I don’t know, maybe I went too far, maybe not. In general, I won’t argue here. Besides, I’m not parading Klim Sanych) If I focus on anyone in terms of presentation, it’s the historian Filyushkin.
  12. +1
    24 March 2024 14: 34
    Quote: Engineer
    Just ignore these idiots

    That's what I usually do. Today, for some reason, I changed this principle and learned a lot of interesting things from the “experts”)
  13. -3
    24 March 2024 15: 00
    Quote: Pavel Kanaev
    So, okay, it was funny to troll you, but now the nonsense is too much. For the illiterate, the “Crimean tornado” regarding this campaign is an expression by the historian A.A. Zimin, one of the most outstanding researchers of early modern Russian history. Apparently you haven't heard of this. Best wishes)

    Well, yes. This tornado is not a cliché and the murder of Grozny’s son is not a fake and the “authoritative biblical texts” are the purest truth... And you were banned from Wikipedia, it’s immediately clear. Get well.
  14. -3
    24 March 2024 18: 13
    Quote: Engineer
    Well, at least you don’t recommend “going to pee” and don’t call him a Russophobe - and thank you)

    Just ignore these idiots
    But I’m not used to replacing “galoshes with wet shoes.”

    The complaint was that modernization of terms was used to suit the market situation.
    Peresvet is not a blogger, but a writer and propagandist. The rest is from the evil one

    Everyone has their own opinion and the right to express it. If the author did not say anything about the many prisoners in Kazan, and according to some sources there were already up to 100 thousand of them before the campaigns, then this is already a reason to give him a minus. You can kiss a hickey based on Russophobia yourself, without mentioning me. I didn't call you a nut or a monkey.
  15. +2
    24 March 2024 19: 25
    Quote: Engineer
    Where can I read about the Habsburg sanctions?

    For God's sake, enlighten yourself.
    A. Filyushkin, "The first confrontation between Russia and Europe. The Livonian War of Ivan the Terrible." The same author of "Vasily III" and "Only the name remains of the Order." Next, Marina Bessudnova, “Russia and Livonia at the end of the 15th century. The origins of the conflict.” Also M.M. Shumilov. “Trade and customs in Russia: formation,
    main stages of development (IX-XVII centuries)". This is just a rough idea.
    1. +1
      24 March 2024 20: 37
      A. Filyushkin, "The first confrontation between Russia and Europe. The Livonian War of Ivan the Terrible." The same author of "Vasily III" and "Only the name remains of the Order." Next, Marina Bessudnova, “Russia and Livonia at the end of the 15th century. The origins of the conflict.” Also M.M. Shumilov. “Trade and customs in Russia: formation,
      main stages of development (IX-XVII centuries)". This is just a rough idea.

      Thank you
      1. +1
        24 March 2024 22: 03
        My pleasure. Here, for example, is what Shumilov has. He is a Doctor of Historical Sciences, defended his dissertation on the history of Russian customs and trade. “Robbery attacks by Swedish and Polish pirates were no less dangerous.30 Fearing the military strengthening of Moscow with the help of England, the Polish king did his best to instill in the English queen the idea that trade with Ivan IV was reprehensible and threatened to seize ships heading to Narva.31 Knowing this, Goodson, however, convinced the company's board to send 1570 ships for Russian goods to Narva in the spring of 13, after arming them with firearms. Indeed, the English ships met 6 ships of Polish privateers and fought with them, after which one enemy ship left, another was burned , “the remaining 4 were brought to Narva and 82 prisoners were handed over to the Moscow governor.”32 Here, the truth is about the efforts of Poland, another long-time “partner,” and about the Habsburgs, who acted in the same paradigm. They put up obstacles to direct trade with other European countries, bypassing Livonia, for example, where it was easy to impose their conditions.The book contains links to sources, documents, correspondence, etc. Not sanctions and not at all similar to what is happening today. This has never happened, and here it is again) Although one can argue: but privateers don’t attack))
  16. +2
    24 March 2024 20: 37
    Quote: Engineer
    Direct succession is when B follows from A and the whole process can be continuously tracked in time. The centuries-old history of trade and technology movement between Russia and the West does not fit into the sanctions scheme. History generally doesn’t fit well into schemes.

    I agree about the schemes, but sanctions are sanctions. I wonder what you mean by them? As for continuity from point A to point B, this is a simplification that leads to distortion. Many processes are cyclical and intermittent. And yet they are directly interconnected. The direct connection is in their semantic content, and not in the fact that they are continuous.
    And here, starting from the Middle Ages, when Russia (let’s call it that, but people here like to find fault with wording and external appearances, since they can say little about the matter) agreed to trade at a loss in many respects, accepted all the imposed conditions, agreed to be simply a resource base , there are no specific sanctions. Why, and so from Russia (relatively Russia, of course, for those who like to find fault) they get what they want. For example, the Habsburgs didn’t care about Novgorod being independent, even if they fought with Livonia there. Because Novgorod accepted the imposed rules of the game and traded goods and resources in demand in Europe, not only at a loss, but with a much greater benefit for the Western side. Haven’t you heard about the practice of “peeling” when selling wax, as with the weighing of goods in German trade in Novgorod, about a fixed price for a product (for example, a barrel of herring) regardless of the contents (is it a whole barrel of herring or half of it was taken along the way where somewhere in Reval)? Moscow conquered Novgorod and closed the shop - sanctions begin (excuse me, I will call things by their proper names, even if this is just a conjuncture). Not only do they not want to trade at a loss, but they also do not want to turn into a protectorate. Have you heard about the offer of the royal title from the Emperor to Ivan III and what it would mean in diplomatic and political terms if he accepted? Moreover, even under Ivan III and even at the beginning of the reign of Vasily III, there was no special blocking of tin, horse stock, saltpeter, and other strategic goods at the suggestion of the Habsburgs (although Moscow did not actually pose a threat to them in any way). It all started when they finally realized that it would not work to make it a sphere of influence, to force them to trade under imposed conditions, to pursue a policy beneficial to the Holy Roman Empire, for example, to harness themselves against the Turks. How to incline to union, which also meant a lot in political and economic terms. That’s when these blockings began (whatever you call it, the essence does not change). Although it was profitable for Western merchants to trade, and many tried and did bypass this. Many Livonians traded around sanctions, as did the Italians. For me, these are economic sanctions. Honestly, I didn’t look at the definition of economic sanctions, but I did. There is truth in Aunt Wiki - then I will definitely try to find it in the literature. But here's the definition. “Economic sanctions (including trade sanctions and financial sanctions) are economic measures of a prohibitive nature (sanctions) that are used by one participant in international trade (a country or group of countries) in relation to another participant (“the target of sanctions”) in order to force the latter to change political course." In general, this is exactly how I imagined the semantic content of the sanctions. And this is exactly what the policy of the Habsburgs (and not only) was.
    1. +1
      24 March 2024 22: 19
      Because Novgorod accepted the imposed rules of the game and traded goods and resources in demand in Europe, not only at a loss, but with a much greater benefit for the Western side

      The history of trade in Novgorod was written a long time ago. The exchange of goods was unequal, but the Novgorodians simply transferred the costs to the final buyer within Novgorod and the rest of Rus'. It never even occurred to the Novgorodians to start a serious confrontation with the Hansa, as Denmark did in the 14th century. This means that on the whole they were satisfied.
      1. 0
        24 March 2024 22: 53
        Quote: Engineer
        the Novgorodians simply passed on the costs to the final buyer within Novgorod and the rest of Rus'.

        The history of Novgorod trade has not been written; some books have been written on it. I got infected from the local contingent with increased attention to wording))) There is probably still a lot of texture that is interesting for research. But that's okay. Sorry when they “slap” you as they please, weigh you down with terrible force (not in grams, but in barrels), etc. - it can’t be profitable, just don’t shift the costs onto anyone. And such trade was carried out not only in Riga somewhere or Revel, not only through intermediaries, but also in Novgorod itself directly. And how did they shift the costs to the rest of the buyer inside Rus'? Most of the income of Novgorod and Pskov was from foreign trade, not from internal trade (relatively speaking, internal, since with other Russian lands - for the time being it was also foreign trade, but that’s not the point, that’s what is meant. Transit trade too, Of course, there was a significant fields, barren Novgorod was vitally dependent. If you “shift your costs onto the rest of Russia,” they won’t supply you with bread, and hello. That’s what they did regularly (for example, Andrei Bogolyubsky and others), and Novgorod had a hard time. There were episodes when times of such, oh, horror, sanctions, only now from friends from, as they say now, the “Russian world”, Novgorodians had to buy bread from... the same Livonians at the price of sables (I’m exaggerating, of course, but at exorbitant prices). So nothing was shifted and nothing was satisfactory. They did not resist, since Novgorod simply did not have the strength for such a confrontation. So we had to accept the terms of the game. But Moscow, which had strengthened and absorbed Novgorod, had the strength to do this. And then, the whole point of my passage is what happened next, after Ivan III closed his shop and began to build normal trade.
        1. 0
          24 March 2024 23: 12
          This is the first time I have read such a point of view.
          All trade agreements were concluded by Novgorod voluntarily. No one from the Hansa made an offer “that cannot be refused.” Novgorod and Pskov were the only significant point of trade between all of Rus' and the West, and this should have covered any costs. And it beat back for centuries.
          . They did not resist, since Novgorod simply did not have the strength for such a confrontation

          To confront who, the Hansa? It's not even funny. Neither Novgorod nor the Moscow kings before Grozny (before the story of Rode) had any chance at sea. Just like the Hansa had no chance during the landing on land. There have been no major conflicts in centuries of trade.
  17. +1
    24 March 2024 23: 35
    Quote: Engineer
    All trade agreements were concluded by Novgorod voluntarily. No one from the Hansa made an offer “that cannot be refused.” Novgorod and Pskov were the only significant point of trade between all of Rus' and the West, and this should have covered any costs. And it beat back for centuries.

    Quote: Engineer
    To confront who, the Hansa? It's not even funny. Neither Novgorod nor the Moscow kings before Grozny (before the story of Rode) had any chance at sea. Just like the Hansa had no chance during the landing on land. There have been no major conflicts in centuries of trade.

    What does the confrontation at sea have to do with it? What does this have to do with “offers you can’t refuse”? Only before the advent of Riga and Revel, Novgorod merchants sailed further to the Hanseatic cities, as far as they could reach by coasting. And then, sorry, they blocked it. And yes, no one concluded agreements, they simply intercepted ships, and that’s all. “Peeling”, fixed prices for goods, etc. - this also happened after the emergence of the Livonians. Before this, there were no such “norms”. There were unspoken rules that you could try to give some of the goods, but all these delights reached such a scale only when “traffic jams” appeared for Novgorodians in the form of Riga and Revel. Before this, trade was different in Novgorod itself. Novgorod's income was still large, I agree. Otherwise Novgorod would not be Novgorod. But there would be much more without these established rules. And they certainly didn't like them. But they swallowed it. Because Novgorod could not go through almost the entire Order with large troops and decent artillery, take serious castles, Fellin and others in order to force the Livonians to sign a peace and trade treaty that was beneficial for themselves. But Ivan 3 could and did do this during the Moscow-Livonian War of 1480-1481, for example. Therefore, I took it and canceled all these unfavorable rules. So “no serious conflicts.”
    1. +1
      25 March 2024 00: 14
      What does the confrontation at sea have to do with it? What does this have to do with “offers you can’t refuse”?

      Despite the fact that we discussed the trade of Novgorod with the Hansa. So, Novgorod did not have any serious problems with the Hansa.
      Yes, Novgorod received less profit when trading with the union. Kostomarov also wrote about this. But the trade was still profitable because it was exclusive.

      The problem with the Livonian Order is a separate case. I am against lumping everything together with the label “collective West”
      Only before the advent of Riga and Revel, Novgorod merchants sailed further to the Hanseatic cities, as far as they could reach by coasting.

      Riga and Revel arose at the beginning of the 13th century. The Novgorod court in Gotland existed at least until 1400. Specify the period of Novgorod oppression.

      But Ivan 3 could and did do this during the Moscow-Livonian War of 1480-1481, for example.

      Ivan the Third did this not for Novgorod, but for Moscow. It’s somehow strange to read passages about how the Germans deprived the poor people from Novgorod of Novgorod, but swallowed them. But a strong king appeared and settled everything. It is easy to see that Novgorod merchants would continue to prefer such “swallowing”
      By the way, Novgorod ended the war of 1443-1448 quite well. It turns out they weren’t so swallowed

      Lastly from Berezhkov
      But the earliest and most sensitive blow to the Hanse was dealt by the Grand Duke of Moscow Ivan III Vasilyevich, who in 1494 ordered the German court in Novgorod to be sealed, and forty-nine merchants to be imprisoned. How great the importance of the Novgorod office was can be seen from the fact that the Hansa, after its closure, did not consider it profitable to maintain an office in Bruges, since without the Novgorod one it could not exist

      I wonder if anyone calculated the lost profits of Russian merchants from such protection of national interests?
  18. 0
    25 March 2024 00: 45
    Quote: Engineer
    By the way, Novgorod ended the war of 1443-1448 quite well. It turns out they weren’t so swallowed

    The fact of the matter is that they fought with the Livonians on equal terms, they were equal in strength, they either won or lost. But they couldn’t put pressure on them properly. Nobody talked about the poor Novgorodians who were oppressed; there is no need to distort, exaggerate and trivialize everything again. But the fact that the conditions became much less favorable after the appearance of the Livonians is, excuse me, a fact, and the fact that they were “swallowed” is also a fact. I didn’t say that they went around the world because of this.
  19. +1
    25 March 2024 01: 10
    Quote: Engineer
    I wonder if anyone calculated the lost profits of Russian merchants from such protection of national interests?

    The German court under Vasily III was restored. Yes, it did not return the previous value, but still. I don't know about losses. But the achievements and gains from the fact that direct contacts and trade were established with Turkey, which for a time became almost the main counterparty for Moscow, the first protectorate was established over Kazan and the Volga trade became much more profitable and access to the Caspian gradually began, covers all this with interest . As well as the formation of an all-Russian market, centralization of power, strengthening, a large army of orientalized, transformations, etc. Naturally, Novgorod was nowhere near capable of this. But Moscow, which aspired to the role of at least a serious regional leader, could not swallow such trade conditions. Those who are “brothers” to the Turkish sultan and emperor (and Ivan 3 was both) will not put up with being bullied and so on, since otherwise they will not take you into account in the international arena. And in a marathon you will lose more than from the closure of the German court and even from sanctions, which, again, were sanctions. That’s why Moscow annexed Novgorod, and not vice versa, because it thought strategically. I see familiar notes here, they say, authoritarian stupid Moscow and the embodiment of democracy Novgrod)) Maybe I’m wrong (I hope so). And yes, Moscow did this for itself (bringing the Livonians to their senses), but he was breaking the system that had developed under independent Novgorod. And again, moving away from the sanctions, which began later. And they were like that, pure water. And about the “collective West” - I myself do not accept this nonsense. And what he quoted from Shumilov just shows that he is not collective at all, but very different. In the context of the British, who wanted to trade and were even ready to butt heads with Polish pirates and others in order to trade with Moscow. In terms of your attitude towards the nonsense about the “collective West”, you are breaking into an open gate. But in terms of belittling the role of Ivan 3 and Moscow, it is colossal. And it’s funny to even discuss such obvious things.
  20. +1
    25 March 2024 01: 22
    Quote: Engineer
    I wonder if anyone calculated the lost profits of Russian merchants from such protection of national interests?

    And also about benefits and sanctions. When Ivan 3 closed his shop and began to build normal trade, the Livonians began to suffer the most losses and grew weaker. That’s why they were particularly zealous in these blockings of goods. In return for this policy, they received periodic subsidies from the emperor. There is correspondence and documents on this matter. For example, in Bessudnova’s book mentioned. And in her book “The First Livonian War. Documentation". Again, no analogies at all. And Ivan III also perfectly understood the costs and some possible temporary losses from all this (not as critical as for the Livonians, who were rushing around like in a frying pan and did not understand whether it was generally more profitable for them to carry out these sanctions, whether these subsidies were worth it , or is it better to trade normally quietly, which is what they often did). For the Livonians this was the main source of income, but for Moscow it was not. Already from the first third of the XNUMXth century, trade in the eastern direction began to slowly come to the fore. And under Ivan the Terrible, it was generally much more important, both in terms of imports and exports, etc. And plus the eastern markets were important because much more high value-added goods were supplied there along with raw materials. Fechner’s classic work, “Trade of the Russian State with the Countries of the East” to help. And this diversification began precisely under Ivan III, who thought strategically. But if you think in the “market” paradigm, then yes, the German Yard has closed))
  21. +1
    25 March 2024 09: 08
    Quote: Engineer
    I wonder if anyone calculated the lost profits of Russian merchants from such protection of national interests?

    And another important point about the closure of this yard has been forgotten - but it is indicative. Ivan 3 was not going to close it. There was an escalation of the conflict, the execution of a Russian merchant in Reval, etc. And this was a response measure from Ivan 3, who at first even fulfilled part of the demands of the German merchants. Here, again, you need to look not only in the context of money, but also in the context of big politics and diplomacy. What was permissible in trade and diplomatic relations between equal Novgorod and Livonia was no longer permissible with the much stronger Moscow. If in Moscow, excuse me, they did not sign an international treaty, if instead of a pendant seal there is a applied seal, since in diplomatic-cosmic language this is imposing the will of the other side on the Grand Duke (even if Moscow was satisfied with the conditions specified in the treaty), then Moscow will certainly not tolerate obstacles from the Livonians could. Otherwise you will not become a strong power. Therefore, Moscow turned out to be strong and viable (although not ideal). And Novgorod, like Kazan by the way in the late 70s of the XNUMXth century, they have this in common; even before the conquest, from a subject it became, in fact, an object of international politics. The only question that remained was who would clean it up.
    1. +1
      25 March 2024 16: 25
      I have become acquainted (not yet fully) with Bessudnova’s works.
      Main thoughts
      Result of the war of 1443–1448
      makes us think about the conclusion of Soviet historians, according to which, without support from Moscow, Veliky Novgorod could not restrain the aggression of the Livonian Order and resist the unfriendly policy of Livonian cities in the field of trade
      [7, p. 120–123]. It seems that, unlike Pskov, which, indeed, did not have large resources, Novgorod could cope with foreign policy problems on its own

      Here I see confirmation of my point of view

      Next
      With the Pskovians and the Novgorodians, the Livonian Landsherrs, if desired, always had a chance to come to an agreement by finding a compromise solution or making minor concessions. This was prompted by the traditional nature of contacts, the parties’ interest in maintaining them, as well as the approximate balance of power. And even though Livonia did not have such endless expanses as Novgorod, it had a powerful Hanseatic “power” on its side, behind which the presence of the “Holy Roman Empire of the German nation” could be discerned. However, this balance, which partly guaranteed the stability of Russian-Livonian relations, was disrupted in the 70s. XV century, when both Pskov and Novgorod found themselves in a state of dependence on the growing Moscow state.


      This is the point of view.

      Regarding the HRI sanctions. I didn't find any information. Bessudnova mentions that Livonia prohibited the export of saltpeter and horses because there was a shortage of them in Livonia itself

      I have not yet found any information about the obstacles from the Livonians in trade. Moreover, the Livonians traded with the Russians even after the arrest of the German Court, despite the direct ban of the Hansa.


      And this diversification began precisely under Ivan III, who thought strategically. But if you think in the “market” paradigm, then yes, the German Yard has closed))


      If you think strategically, then all markets are important
  22. 0
    25 March 2024 16: 45
    Quote: Engineer
    Here I see confirmation of my point of view

    Quote: Engineer
    Here I see confirmation of my point of view

    Yes, and see, for God's sake. Yes, he could manage in such a way that he was conquered by Moscow, and if he had not been conquered by Moscow, he would have gone to Lithuania. A state that can cope with problems retains its independence. This means that Novgorod was a little stronger than Pskov militarily and could AT LEAST butt heads with Livonia on equal terms. But Pskov could not in case of conflicts; it needed military assistance in case of conflicts. By the way, either Novgorod helped against Livonia, or vice versa, since there was a powerful pro-German party there. Let us at least remember the Battle of the Ice, but this is again aside. And in 1480, when the order attacked him, he had to turn to Moscow. What confirmation is there of your words, what words? About the powerful Novgorodians who actually experienced BDS pleasure when they were robbed? Yes, ok, let the Novgorodians be the strongest and feel the pleasure, if you like. I talked about what happened after Moscow, which did not share this BDS attitude and could really solve foreign policy problems, came and broke this system and what happened then - sanctions in their purest form. What do you see confirmation of here, the pulling of an owl onto a globe. Everyone sees what they want.
    1. 0
      25 March 2024 16: 56
      Such an acute reaction is not understandable.

      Confirmation of words
      By the way, Novgorod ended the war of 1443-1448 quite well. It turns out they weren’t so swallowed


      Moscow solved its own problems, not the problems of Novgorod. Novgorod as a partner of the Hansa was not included in its concept at all.

      The Novgorodians were not the strongest. But there were enough of them for Livonia.

      came and broke this system and what happened next - sanctions in their purest form.


      Economic sanctions (including trade sanctions and financial sanctions) are economic measures of a prohibitive nature (sanctions) that are used by one participant in international trade (a country or group of countries) in relation to another participant (the “target of sanctions”) with the goal is to force the latter to change the political course


      In any case, I am grateful for the leads on the sources
  23. 0
    25 March 2024 17: 04
    Quote: Engineer
    Regarding the HRI sanctions.

    Take 2. Shumilov, since you love to sprinkle pieces from books so much. “Robbery attacks by Swedish and Polish pirates were no less dangerous.30 Fearing the military strengthening of Moscow with the help of England, the Polish king did his best to instill in the English queen the idea that trade with Ivan IV was reprehensible and threatened to seize ships heading to Narva.31 Knowing this, Goodson, however, convinced the company's board to send 1570 ships for Russian goods to Narva in the spring of 13, after arming them with firearms. Indeed, the English ships met 6 ships of Polish privateers and fought with them, after which one enemy ship left, another was burned , “the remaining 4 were brought to Narva and 82 prisoners were handed over to the Moscow governor.”32 It’s just that Filyushkin has a lot of Habsburgs, even in “Vasily III”, even in “The First Confrontation between Russia and Europe.” And he already wrote about the emperor’s prohibitions on letting the Livonians through strategic goods in exchange for subsidies, he has everything about it there, although I thought that in general terms even a schoolboy would know this. If these are not economic sanctions, then I am a tram. Search, find confirmation from him that sanctions are not sanctions, and send me another quote, there are never too many comments. About trade, even after the ruin of the court, he also wrote that pressure on the Order from the Habsburgs had already begun under Vasily III. Before this, they still had illusions that they would be able to drag Moscow into the anti-Turkish league, and they even sent specialists themselves and not only that. And during the period of already tough sanctions, the Livonians traded around them, because they could not really survive on imperial grub. Again, very “unlike” the modern swank reality. However, think what you want. If you don’t understand what sanctions are, that’s up to you. Look for conditions where there are none) Everyone is tired of arguing about common truths, so let’s get to the primer.
  24. 0
    25 March 2024 17: 21
    Quote: Engineer
    The Novgorodians were not the strongest. But there were enough of them for Livonia.

    That's what I'm saying too. It was enough to butt heads with Livonia, and no more. But more was needed - or, if you please, an emphasis was also placed on peeling. About the role of the empire and not only Filyushkin “The First Confrontation between Russia and Europe” from 55 - 60.
  25. 0
    25 March 2024 17: 38
    Quote: Engineer
    In any case, I am grateful for the leads on the sources

    Please. According to historiography, we are talking about wording here). I apologize for losing my temper. Not right. It’s just that I never consider myself an opportunist; I can’t stand all the news. I just like to use succinct, understandable and reflective terms. For me, this is exactly him here, in his pure form, and that’s what I was convinced of, and that’s the way it is. And I didn’t have any opportunistic thoughts. But okay, I apologize again.
    1. 0
      25 March 2024 18: 23
      I apologize for losing my temper. Not right.

      Yes bullshit.
      In history, battles have long died down. Maybe at least a heated discussion will revive the interest of others.