Battle for Avdeevka: results

170
Battle for Avdeevka: results

Recent ones news from the Ukrainian fronts, where the Russian Armed Forces first actually cut Avdiivka in half and then began clearing it, they say that the battle for the city is over. Considering that the enemy held this settlement for two years after the start of the military operation, and the active offensive operation of Russian troops on Avdiivka began back in October, it is somewhat surprising to read on jingoistic channels and in some media about the “surrender of Avdeevka by the Wehrmacht.”

The expression “surrendered the city” often means the voluntary surrender of the troops located in the city or fortress to the enemy. Are we seeing something similar in Avdeevka? No, because all this time Ukrainian troops fought stubborn battles for every fortified area and every street, losing a large number of personnel. For this reason, talk about the “surrender of the city,” in the author’s opinion, is not only some distortion of the truth, but also disrespect for those Russian soldiers who, suffering losses, fought heavy battles knee-deep in mud.



The battle for Avdeevka was in many respects reminiscent of the battle for Bakhmut (Artemovsk), and as a result, the Russian Armed Forces took control of the ruins of the city, in which no entire buildings remained.

The value of this territorial acquisition lies in the fact that the front line moves away from Donetsk, which is under daily shelling.

Avdiivka in a tactical environment


At the beginning of last week, the Russian Armed Forces, after several months of heavy fighting, wedged themselves into the depths of the enemy’s defensive lines and cut Avdeevka in half, cutting off the southern part of the city, occupied by the Ukrainian Armed Forces, from the northern part, where the Avdeevka coke plant is located. On February 16, a distance of just over 2 kilometers remained before the southern part of the city was completely encircled and the only supply road was cut.


Actually, Western media, in particular the American newspaper, began writing about the fact that the city would soon come under the control of the Russian Armed Forces The Washington Post:

“The destroyed coke plant will likely become the last Ukrainian stronghold in Avdiivka. The Ukrainian military says it is only a matter of time before they have to surrender the city, and on Thursday the military said forces had already retreated from some positions as the Russians began to advance rapidly.”

German journalist and columnist for Bild Julian Repke reported on the afternoon of Thursday, February 15, that Avdiivka is in a tactical encirclement.

“The Russian flag is on the very spot where Zelensky took a selfie at the entrance to Avdiivka back in late December. Currently, the city is tactically surrounded by Russia. The biggest challenge for Ukrainians will be to get out of there alive,”

He wrote.

The Ukrainian command also admitted that Avdiivka will most likely be abandoned. Thus, the speaker of the defense forces of the Tauride direction, Dmitry Likhovoy, said that a partial withdrawal of Ukrainian units is taking place in Avdeevka “to more advantageous positions».

Subsequently, the new commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Alexander Syrsky, on Saturday night announced the withdrawal of Ukrainian forces from Avdiivka and “the transition to defense on more advantageous lines.” However, where the new line of defense will be is still unclear.


Nevertheless, the exit did not turn out as smoothly as the Ukrainian command says, which partially lost control over the situation and gave orders to abandon three hundred people (i.e., the wounded). However, despite the panic in the ranks of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, the bulk of the enemy forces apparently managed to leave the city. The Russian Armed Forces took a significant number of prisoners (military correspondents report several hundred), but still failed to completely encircle the southern part of Avdievka in time.

Be that as it may, the battle for Avdeevka ended with the victory of our troops.

The Battle of Avdeevka and the Bakhmut Meat Grinder: common features



There are quite a lot of similarities between the battle for Avdeevka and the battle for Bakhmut (Artyomovsk), since both of these settlements were taken by assault “head-on”, and the battles were fought in urban areas for every street. If the losses in Bakhmut (Artyomovsk) are approximately known to us, then the Russian military command prefers to remain silent about the losses near Avdeevka.

Some readers and ordinary people will probably ask the question - why did they take Avdeevka head-on by storm, and not try to surround it and outflank it?

However, the very posing of such a question suggests that the person asking it does not fully understand the realities of the military conflict in Ukraine.

The realities of trench warfare make their own adjustments, since the positional deadlock has not really gone away. And this positional impasse lies in the fact that it is impossible to bypass cities from the flanks.

Initially, the command tried to attack Avdeevka from the flanks (for example, attacks on Petrovskoye/Stepovoe and Severnoye), but these attempts did not lead to anything. The reason for the failure is the inability to protect troops from precision artillery and mass use drones in open areas. Therefore, attempts to advance in the fields on both sides ended in defeat over and over again. But in the development zone, despite all the difficulties, progress was more successful.

The exact same thing happened in Bakhmut (Artyomovsk) - initially the fighters of the Wagner PMC tried to encircle it from the flanks, but such an attempt was a failure. Here the author will allow himself to quote one domestic Telegram channel, which quite accurately described why the battle for Bakhmut was reduced to head-on attacks and battles in urban areas.

“Whether Wagner or the RF Armed Forces are falling into a positional war, and the counterattacking units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are also falling into it. No exit. Now let’s talk about why PMCs get into buildings, even when they can (as it seems) walk through open areas. In built-up areas, it is much easier for infantry to hide and camouflage themselves. Concrete buildings greatly increase its resistance to artillery fire and make it difficult to direct fire at it from a UAV. Enemy artillery, which, as we have established, cannot be suppressed by the means available, in open areas is capable of inflicting many times greater losses on light infantry than in built-up areas. If we remember the movement of the “Wagners” in the vicinity of Bakhmut, then there was an attempt to bypass the city from the flanks, but then the Chevek soldiers were forced to take to the streets - a paradox, but if you cannot suppress the enemy’s artillery, then there are fewer losses on the streets.”

Exactly the same situation developed near Avdeevka. Why the Russian Armed Forces cannot suppress enemy artillery is a separate topic. As for UAVs, at the moment there is no 100% protection against them at all.

In conditions of a positional deadlock, when neither side has air supremacy, cannot knock out enemy artillery and defend against drones, neither the RF Armed Forces nor the Ukrainian Armed Forces can offer anything other than exhausting and bloody frontal assaults. For this reason, the capture of Avdeevka, like the capture of Bakhmut (Artemovsk), will not affect the overall strategic situation in any way - there are many more towns like Avdeevka in the Donbass.
170 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +6
    21 February 2024 04: 29
    There are many more towns like Avdeevka in the Donbass.
    This means there will be many more losses...
    1. -1
      23 February 2024 00: 54
      So, I still don’t understand, did they take Avdiivka or only half of Avdiivka?!
  2. +18
    21 February 2024 04: 58
    Strategically, yes, it won’t change anything. Tactically, this is still a significant success. This damn Avdeevka has been a thorn in one place for all 10 years after the “wise” Minskys.
    The losses, to put it mildly, were considerable. The operation lasted almost exactly two years, at first the key role was played by units of the DPR (Russian citizens, but until 2023 they were not officially part of the Russian army), already at the last decisive stage of the operation (from October) our “old” units. True, yesterday Mr. Shoigu said that the losses were small, I will leave this without comment, you can only ask a rhetorical question - how much does it take to lose for a town with a population of 30 thousand people so that it can be considered large losses?
    As for the fact that they stormed through the city again, the author wrote everything correctly; in the current realities, it is “easier” to go through continuous buildings. As a positive aspect, I would like to note the active use of aviation and gliding bombs. This played a role.
    To stop the shelling of Donetsk, the liberation of Avdiivka is a positive factor, but not a decisive one. There in the south there is Netailovo and the especially important Krasnogorovka (the city is somewhat smaller than Avdeevka)..
    1. +13
      21 February 2024 05: 41
      Quote: Belisarius
      Count Shoigu said that the losses were small

      But Prigozhin kept talking (and showing) about the serious losses of PMCs in Bakhmut. And he even called the figure 20 thousand. Behind
      a small town is a huge number.
      1. +6
        21 February 2024 12: 15
        Quote: Stas157
        But Prigozhin kept talking (and showing) about the serious losses of PMCs in Bakhmut. And he even called the figure 20 thousand.

        Yes, but he laid claim to 60 killed Armed Forces officers. The losses are still very large, of course.
        1. 0
          21 February 2024 13: 23
          20 for Wagner and 000 for VSU are total losses, 60, 000, etc. There are about 200-300 times less killed. It’s just that not everyone understands that losses and killed are not the same thing.
          1. +7
            21 February 2024 14: 06
            Quote: Glagol1
            20 for Wagner and 000 for VSU are total losses, 60, 000, etc.

            According to Prigozhin, the PMC recruited 50 prisoners, of which 20% died. The same losses were among contractors. From the side of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, 50 thousand soldiers were killed, he said
            1. +15
              21 February 2024 15: 22
              In Telega they voice our losses - up to 16000, and here is the tragedy in Volnovakha, again the formation, again the arrival of Khaimar and... that’s it, there are no guys and they call the name of the anti-hero - Moiseev. And for Shoigu, as in the song, “the detachment did not notice the loss of a fighter...” it’s good, at least that now it’s difficult to completely silence bestial bungling and impenetrable stupidity. Although we are trying very hard to shut up, so that only caps are in the air.. The kingdom of heaven to Prigozhin and his Team, who were vilely killed on the sly.
              1. +4
                21 February 2024 22: 02
                The losses are reported to be great; it was very difficult to enter the city. If it’s true 16, then these are not minimal losses, this is a disaster. And the work of the General Staff is not military art, as they want to present, but rather not an understanding of other options.
      2. +4
        21 February 2024 12: 21
        As far as I remember, this is only Wagner's losses, 20.
    2. +5
      21 February 2024 11: 56
      Quote: Belisarius
      True, yesterday Count Shoigu said that the losses were small,

      I don’t know what his losses are, but there are more young wheelchair users. Just yesterday I saw a guy about 20-25 years old, whom his friends were having fun with. But I’m sure their fun won’t last long.
    3. -1
      21 February 2024 20: 42
      Quote: Belisarius
      True, yesterday Count Shoigu said that the losses were small, I will leave this without comment,

      And Shoigu, apparently, should have burst into tears on camera and said that the losses were colossal - then you would have commented.
      Quote: Belisarius
      You can only ask a rhetorical question: how much does a town with a population of 30 thousand people need to lose for it to be considered a big loss?

      Those. according to your logic, losses during an attack depend on the size of the settlement and the number of inhabitants, therefore, outside settlements there should be no losses at all fool It is not clear how then the Ukrainians with the counter-grunt failed so much and suffered serious losses in the fields. Maybe everything is much simpler, and losses depend on the scale and quality of defensive measures that the enemy is able to carry out on a specific segment of the front, which in turn is associated with the importance of a particular sector for the enemy.
      1. +1
        21 February 2024 22: 04
        Shoigu doesn’t care about losses, he wants a medal and a title. As the guys say, if there had been competent command, there would have been 2 times less losses....
        1. 0
          3 March 2024 01: 31
          I’ll upset you - Shoigu is a talking head and has no direct connection with the North Military District. And as for the medals, why does he need them, just like with titles?
  3. -1
    21 February 2024 05: 17
    Everyone says and writes that many prisoners were taken, without mentioning the number. Judging by the fact that at least 10 thousand were located in Avdeevka, and according to reports, about 3 thousand were killed, which means the rest must be prisoners. Once the withdrawal of the troops came out failed. I understand so?
    1. +3
      21 February 2024 08: 23
      there were about 1000 prisoners, the rest left within a few weeks
    2. 0
      21 February 2024 13: 26
      Quite a few escaped. There are up to 1000 prisoners, no more. I think more than 3 thousand were killed
      1. +4
        22 February 2024 18: 56
        That is, 17 thousand of ours died, while the Ukrainian Armed Forces lost up to a thousand prisoners and POSSIBLY more than 3 thousand killed? Bakhmut, Avdeevka... How many more such victories will be enough for the people in Russia? Didn't King Pyrrhus reincarnate up there?
        1. +1
          22 February 2024 21: 54
          Sorry, Murz wrote about 16 thousand dead on our side. The losses of the defending side are usually smaller; the ratio can change sharply if the offensive ends in the complete defeat of the defenders and their encirclement, but this operation did not lead to such a result.
          1. 0
            24 February 2024 12: 37
            Well, Murz is not the ultimate truth. I read an opinion that in Avdeevka the losses are many times less than the announced figures
  4. -11
    21 February 2024 05: 18
    The article contains secret signs. On the primordially Russian lands on the territory of Russia in its subject of the Donetsk People's Republic there is the city of Artyomovsk, but the author of the article stubbornly calls this city Bakhmut, putting the name Artyomovsk in brackets - Bakhmut (Artyomovsk). We shouldn’t be surprised at all if we get an article from this author specifically about Königsberg (Kaliningrad), about Tilsit (Sovetsk), about Viipuri (Vyborg), about Yanillinn Ivangorod, etc.
    1. +18
      21 February 2024 05: 30
      Quote: north 2
      secret signs are encrypted in the article

      Let's at least not start a witch hunt here.
    2. +6
      21 February 2024 06: 18
      Quote: north 2
      On the primordially Russian lands on the territory of Russia in its subject of the Donetsk People's Republic there is the city of Artyomovsk, but the author of the article stubbornly calls this city Bakhmut, putting the name Artyomovsk in brackets - Bakhmut (Artyomovsk).

      Dear!Bakhmut was founded by order of Ivan the Terrible at the end of the 16th century! He became Artyomovsky at the behest of the Bolsheviks in the twenties of the last century! Three and a half centuries - Bakhmut (!) and about a hundred - Artyomovsk! Bakhmut is an old Russian name! And Artyomovsk is a Bolshevik name! Which one has more rights to survive? Next...Konigsberg is a name 8(!) centuries old! And Kaliningrad is less than a hundred years old from the Bolshevik “renaming”! There is an excellent proposal...to return the city to its former name, but in Russian! Knyazhegrad (Knyazhgrad) ! But the current leadership in Russia continues to “squeeze their butts”!
      1. +11
        21 February 2024 07: 38
        This is another one from the series. I will name three cities Tsaritsyn, Stalingrad, Volgograd. Which one is correct?
        For those who live nearby, even the residents of Avdeevka say they survived, they all remember Avdeevka. why rape the memory with Bakhmut.? It is clear that the modern bourgeois government hates everything Soviet.
        1. +7
          21 February 2024 08: 12
          Quote: Gardamir
          I will name three cities Tsaritsyn, Stalingrad, Volgograd. Which one is correct?

          Tsaritsyn is older, Stalingrad is deserved. Well, Khrushchev called Volgograd when he was promoting the anti-Stalinist company.

          A new name is akin to zeroing, as if it says: “And now there is a new starting point and it will be different.” The old name is beautiful and consistent. But the best name for the city is a well-deserved one, based on the name of the great battles and stories that took place there. This has been the case everywhere and at all times.
          1. +4
            21 February 2024 09: 43
            I agree about what is deserved. Now I suddenly remembered. There was a city with the beautiful name Naberezhnye Chelny, and then again the city of Brezhnev. With all due respect to Brezhnev, Naberezhnye Chelny is simply more beautiful and more familiar.
            Many rulers, princes, kings, and general secretaries sinned with renaming. It seems to me better to leave what is familiar to the current generation.
          2. -3
            21 February 2024 10: 48
            But the best name for the city is a well-deserved one, based on the name of the great battles and stories that took place there.
            Well, according to this principle, Artyomovsk should be called Wagner or Prigozhinsk. Who agrees? wink
          3. +9
            21 February 2024 13: 41
            Well then, St. Petersburg should be called Leningrad.
            1. +1
              22 February 2024 19: 01
              The right to name cities should be reserved exclusively for those who founded them. And those who like to rename should be advised to found a city themselves, and then call it whatever they want.
  5. +17
    21 February 2024 05: 32
    The Donbass will be almost completely destroyed...
    1. 0
      22 February 2024 23: 47
      Much more worrying is the number of our losses. But cities can be rebuilt when there is someone to build and for whom to build.
  6. +1
    21 February 2024 06: 08
    For this reason, the capture of Avdeevka, like the capture of Bakhmut (Artemovsk), will not affect the overall strategic situation in any way - there are many more towns like Avdeevka in the Donbass.


    Golden words, please put them at the beginning of the article
    1. 0
      21 February 2024 22: 06
      Despite the shell hunger, the Ukrainian Armed Forces still have a lot of infantry, many drones, there will be cruise missile strikes, then the Ukrainian Armed Forces will retreat to the cities and sit there, I don’t see the point in taking the cities. just starvation.
      1. +1
        22 February 2024 19: 05
        And if, two years after the start of the Northern Military District, our stripes have not formed neural connections on the topic: building personnel = many, many funerals after, then the exchange will continue - minus the rocket for them = minus the company and more personnel for us . And no one is to blame, the stripe wearer gets another star and an order.
  7. +4
    21 February 2024 06: 21
    The assault on Avdeevka at the last stage is quite different from the assault on Artyomovsk at the last stage. Supply routes were cut and the front collapsed at the Ukrainian Armed Forces within a few days. Yes, it was very difficult to break into the first line of defense of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, but they broke into it.
  8. Des
    +8
    21 February 2024 06: 34
    From the author’s article (conclusion): “In conditions of a positional deadlock, when neither side has air supremacy, can knock out enemy artillery and defend against drones, neither the RF Armed Forces nor the Ukrainian Armed Forces can offer anything other than debilitating and bloody frontal assaults."
    1. +2
      21 February 2024 08: 21
      Des(Alexander)
      Your conclusion is correct, but if you look at the situation from a “different angle” you can see the following:
      1. The Russian Army (RA) has an insufficient number of l/s to carry out large-scale offensive operations (previously on the pages of VO the figures for l/s of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the RA were announced as 1 to 1,7 during the assault on Avdeevka)
      2. Conducting active combat operations only in the territories of four new regions of Russia.
      hi
      1. 0
        22 February 2024 19: 09
        There will be more personnel - they will arrange formations not of companies and battalions, but of entire brigades in front of the next commanding officer. But Khimars doesn’t care how many people are lined up in the target area. So whether there will be more successes at LBS is not a fact, but the number of funerals will increase severalfold. And after a while - this l/s is over, mobilize the next one. And so on ad infinitum. VO published an interesting article about the Paraguayan War, read it.
    2. +13
      21 February 2024 09: 25
      Pay attention to how all successful operations in the Second World War took place. A strike by superior forces on a section of the front - and immediately mobile formations are introduced into the breakthrough, rapidly moving into the far rear of the enemy. Moreover, the location of the breakthrough is as far as possible from the point of the planned encirclement.

      So what do you think - what would have happened if the Red Army had tried to encircle Stalingrad like Avdeevka, right along Paulus’s near flank? So that even artillery from the city can reach the advancing units? I think the answer is obvious. Defeat and zero result. Because the direction of the attack would be obvious, and in just a couple of hours reserves would be pulled up there. Is not it?
      1. +2
        21 February 2024 10: 37
        Pay attention to how all successful operations in the Second World War took place. Strike by superior forces on a section of the front
        clarification is necessary here: there was the least fortified section of the front suitable for a breakthrough.
        So what do you think - what would have happened if the Red Army had tried to encircle Stalingrad like Avdeevka, right along Paulus’s near flank?
        Such an attempt was, however, unsuccessful. (Offensive operation of the Don Front in September-October 1942.)
        Because the direction of the attack would be obvious, and in just a couple of hours reserves would be pulled up there.
        The Germans actively used mobile reserves (motorized) to stop attempts to break through their defenses.
        To summarize the above:
        Encirclement of enemy forces in World War II was the most effective and widespread of the offensive operations used by the armed forces of the main warring countries.
    3. +4
      21 February 2024 11: 54
      From the Author’s article, the conclusion is that it is still not the second and there is no overwhelming (and not overwhelming either) technical superiority that allows one to qualitatively compensate for the number.
  9. -7
    21 February 2024 06: 37
    Some readers and ordinary people will probably ask the question - why did they take Avdeevka head-on by storm, and not try to surround it and outflank it?
    However, the very posing of such a question suggests that the person asking it does not fully understand the realities of the military conflict in Ukraine.

    You can add - but they don’t want to understand.
    1. +7
      21 February 2024 07: 08
      Quote: Dart2027
      You can add - but they don’t want to understand.

      They want to. It’s just not clear where to turn for clarification.
      Can you give me some advice?
      Are there any official or trusted sources? Otherwise Konashenkov only reads out reports.
      But many thanks to the author for the article.
      1. -10
        21 February 2024 08: 03
        Quote: Stas157
        Are there any official or trusted sources? Otherwise Konashenkov only reads out reports.

        This is what he should do. During the Second World War, Levitan also did not explain the principles of strategy and tactics to his listeners, and this did not surprise anyone.
        I don’t remember how many times there have been articles in which they explained out of hand why daring breakthroughs in the spirit of Stalin’s strikes are now technically impossible, and every time the comments start bleating “but in the Second World War... but our command doesn’t know anything, they’re like PMV..."
        1. 0
          21 February 2024 08: 43
          Quote: Dart2027
          Dashing breakthroughs in the spirit of Stalin’s strikes are now technically impossible

          However, the key to victory is disruption of logistics. And this was always the winning factor. And this happened in Avdeevka.
          1. +2
            21 February 2024 09: 31
            Quote: Stas157
            However, the key to victory is disruption of logistics.

            Yes it is. But there is one nuance here - logistics can only be disrupted by capturing transport communications on the ground, and missile strikes will not ensure this. The experience of the Second World War speaks to this - no sabotage by partisans or bombing of railways could deprive the Germans of supplies, despite the fact that they were fighting on foreign territory. This was the case in Avdeevka - only after ours came close to the last route was the supply cut off.
          2. +3
            21 February 2024 15: 59
            What is needed to collapse the logistics of Bandera’s followers? It’s right to demolish the Deprovo bridges, namely them, because strikes on junction stations will have such an effect with regular strikes, which cannot be the case - rockets are not pies to be baked in hundreds, but on them, these damned bridges, a taboo has been imposed, what the hell ? We will find out much later.
        2. +5
          21 February 2024 10: 33
          why dashing breakthroughs in the spirit of Stalin’s strikes are now technically impossible

          Stalin's strikes are only a way of isolating enemy forces from reserves, corresponding to their time. Now isolation is carried out in accordance with new technical capabilities.
          And the fact that we do not know how and have nothing to do it with, does not mean that it is impossible.
          Well, the question of coalitions then and now generally puts an end to it.
          1. -6
            21 February 2024 14: 08
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            And the fact that we do not know how and have nothing to do it with, does not mean that it is impossible.

            Well, how exactly?
            1. +2
              21 February 2024 14: 41
              Since this is provided for by the FSS doctrine. This won't tell you anything, will it?
              1. -4
                21 February 2024 15: 33
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                Since this is provided for by the FSS doctrine

                Well, what exactly? And who are the authors of this doctrine?
                1. +4
                  21 February 2024 16: 24
                  Well, what exactly?

                  I showed you in the picture, but it’s easier to throw in empty questions than to understand the components, right? If you need it simpler and without documents in the enemy language, then the network of components “intelligence” - “communications” - “WTO” does not allow you to create supply chains and provide support to isolated troops, because you react faster than the enemy.
                  1. -1
                    21 February 2024 16: 54
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    If you need it easier and without documents in an enemy language

                    And those who came up with this ever fought with an enemy who has both satellite reconnaissance and satellite communications? I don’t remember how many times the Ukrainian military said that everything that NATO instructors teach them is only suitable against almost unarmed partisans. How are these experts doing with the Houthis or in the Gaza Strip?
                    And what specific actions do you propose?
                    1. +2
                      21 February 2024 17: 07
                      I don’t remember how many times the Ukrainian military said that everything that NATO instructors teach them is only suitable against almost unarmed partisans.

                      It is they who tell this in the retellings of our propagandists. Well, or in captivity. This time. Teaching meat to be meat has nothing to do with FSS and network-centricity. That's two.
                      And those who came up with this ever fought with an enemy who has both satellite reconnaissance and satellite communications?

                      Those who came up with this gave the Ukrainians only ONE stripped-down element of this structure by last summer. The result is that the enemy of the Ukrainians, who, in theory, seems to have satellite reconnaissance and satellite communications, has not known what to do for the last year and a half.
                      How are these experts doing with the Houthis or in the Gaza Strip?

                      Do they have any problems? This time. Tell us what we would show about the Houthis or in the Gaza Strip? That's two.
                      And what specific actions do you propose?

                      Actions for what and do I propose to whom?
                      1. -5
                        21 February 2024 17: 50
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        It is they who tell this in the retellings of our propagandists. Well, or in captivity. This time.

                        And this is also on channels in Ukraine itself.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Those who came up with this gave the Ukrainians only ONE stripped-down element of this structure

                        Will there be a source about the cuts? Like the answer to the question
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And those who came up with this ever fought with an enemy who has both satellite reconnaissance and satellite communications?

                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        doesn't know what to do for the last year and a half

                        Moreover, he doesn’t know that in Europe they no longer know where else to find weapons, but in the Ukrainian Armed Forces they have to grab people on the street.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Actions for what and do I propose to whom?

                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And the fact that we do not know how and have nothing to do it with, does not mean that it is impossible.

                        So what exactly?
                      2. +2
                        21 February 2024 18: 08
                        And this is also on channels in Ukraine itself.

                        Which channels? Telegram? Those who lead from Russia, passing off as Ukrainian, like Legitimny?
                        Will there be a source about the cuts?

                        What source do you have about the fact that the sky is blue and the water is wet? For you, the fact that other people can use their knowledge to analyze something is akin to a miracle or what?
                        Like the answer to the question

                        The answer has been given to you
                        Those who came up with this gave the Ukrainians only ONE stripped-down element of this structure by last summer. The result is that the enemy of the Ukrainians, who, in theory, seems to have satellite reconnaissance and satellite communications, has not known what to do for the last year and a half.

                        The fact that you don't like him won't change the reality of what's happening.
                        Moreover, he doesn’t know that in Europe they no longer know where else to find weapons, but in the Ukrainian Armed Forces they have to grab people on the street.

                        Have you decided to make an argument into the bidding of weapons manufacturers, for whom it is more profitable to sell little, but at a high price, until an offer appears that pays for a quick return on the investment? Level however.
                        So what exactly?

                        Explained above.
                      3. -4
                        21 February 2024 18: 16
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Those who lead from Russia, passing off as Ukrainian
                        Will there be a source for the fact that they are being led from Russia?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What source do you have about the fact that the sky is blue and the water is wet?
                        That is, no, and all the talk about some kind of cutback is nothing more than a lie.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        The answer has been given to you

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And those who came up with this ever fought with an enemy who has both satellite reconnaissance and satellite communications?

                        Will there be an answer or not?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You decided to make an argument about the bidding of arms manufacturers who
                        That is, again, nothing concrete except rumors.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Explained above.

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And what specific actions do you propose?
                      4. 0
                        24 February 2024 12: 05
                        Well, since, apparently, you can’t count on the adequacy of the answers, then at least I’ll have fun. Or, as people say, let’s begin a process called “your lard and your musal.”
                        Will there be a source for the fact that they are being led from Russia?

                        You were the FIRST to issue the statement that “I don’t remember how many times the Ukrainian military spoke... on channels in Ukraine itself”
                        Therefore, please provide a link to a Ukrainian media source with a report from a Ukrainian military man that NATO instructors are only taught to fight against unarmed partisans." Naturally, with confirmation that the source is Ukrainian.
                        That is, no, and all the talk about some kind of cutback is nothing more than a lie.

                        Talking about cutting back is about knowledge and analysis. If Ukraine does not have access to any parts of the complex of operational control of military units and weapons systems that the United States and NATO have within the framework of the FSS doctrine, then this is a cutback. For example, Ukrainians are not connected to JTRS NED; they do not have the appropriate equipment to build a network. This is confirmed by the trophies that we get. If you do not agree, please provide proof of availability of the appropriate equipment. Or, for example, Ukrainians do not have American logistics control systems, neither the old DTRACS nor the new MTS. This is confirmed by the trophies that we get. If you do not agree, please provide proof of availability of the appropriate equipment. TBMCS and GCCS are not used because there is no compatible equipment. If you do not agree, please provide proof of the availability of the appropriate equipment.
                        I can go on like this for a very long time, but at least you can cope with these three points lol
                        Will there be an answer or not?

                        Open your eyes, the answer was given above.
                        That is, again, nothing concrete except rumors.

                        Did you have specifics somewhere that in Europe they don’t know where to find weapons? Anticipating the answer, I immediately inform you that the media is not specific. You don’t even have to present it as “evidence.”
                      5. 0
                        24 February 2024 13: 00
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Well, since, apparently, you can’t count on the adequacy of the answers
                        Said a man who is emanating bile from anger at the way his Bandera friends are being disposed of.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Talk about cutting back is
                        chatter. All communications of the Ukrainian Armed Forces go through the American Starlink systems, which do the same.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Open your eyes, the answer was given above.

                        And those who came up with this ever fought with an enemy who has both satellite reconnaissance and satellite communications? Will there be an answer or not?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Did you have specifics somewhere that in Europe they don’t know where to find weapons? Anticipating the answer, I immediately inform you that the media is not specific.
                        Said the man who has nothing. Well, prove that there are no problems with the supply of weapons.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Therefore, please provide a link to a Ukrainian media source with a report from a Ukrainian military man that NATO instructors are only taught to fight against unarmed partisans." Naturally, with confirmation that the source is Ukrainian.

                        Here are links to French, British and American sources.
                        https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2023/09/26/avec-les-soldats-ukrainiens-formes-a-l-etranger-je-leur-disais-aux-formateurs-de-l-otan-que-leurs-manuels-ne-s-appliquaient-pas-chez-nous_6191114_3210.html

                        https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/ukraine-russia-training-nato-west-military/

                        https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/07/world/europe/ukraine-marines-counteroffensive.html
                      6. 0
                        24 February 2024 13: 45
                        Said a man who is emanating bile from anger at the way his Bandera friends are being disposed of.

                        1) Bandera’s people are not my friends.
                        2) I don’t come out with bile
                        3) You are using a logical manipulation based on the argumentum ad hominem logical fallacy - an appeal to personality rather than to conclusions.
                        chatter. All communications of the Ukrainian Armed Forces go through the American Starlink systems, which do the same.

                        1) Not all.
                        2) The presence of a certain component does not mean the presence of other components. What distinguishes “fullness” from “reducedness”.
                        3) I do not see your confirmation of the connection of Ukrainian troops to JTRS NED.
                        4) I do not see your confirmation of the connection of Ukrainian troops to DTRACS or MTS
                        5) I do not see your confirmation of the connection of Ukrainian troops to TBMCS and GCCS
                        6) Satellites for Starlink (commercial use) are used by Ukraine, 12 satellites for Starshield (military departments) are not used by Ukraine.
                        7) Are millions of Starlink commercial users in seventy countries also members of the Armed Forces of Ukraine? As well as users of EutelSat OneWeb, Kuiper Systems, Hughes Network Systems, Viasat and other commercial products lol
                        who do the same

                        What do they do the same? belay Same as JTRS NED, DTRACS, MTS, TBMCS, GCCS? At least you wouldn’t embarrass yourself by showing your complete ignorance of the subject under discussion.
                        And those who came up with this ever fought with an enemy who has both satellite reconnaissance and satellite communications?

                        1) The answer is given above
                        2) Whether the enemy has satellite communications and intelligence or not, they will not disappear from the United States and NATO. Therefore, your manipulations are meaningless.
                        3) Below you claim that we are at war with NATO. Which means, by your own logic, NATO is with us. We have both satellite reconnaissance and satellite communications. Well, is there? lol
                        Here are links to French, British and American sources.

                        1) Why? I am asking for something very specific - a Ukrainian source and the LIVE words of a Ukrainian serviceman (video interview), and not what the journalist wanted to write.
                        2) So is what the French, British and American media write true for you? wassat Oh, you shouldn't be doing that.
                      7. 0
                        24 February 2024 14: 10
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        1) Bandera’s people are not my friends.
                        2) I don’t come out with bile
                        Judging by the comments, you're lying.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I do not see
                        There is a fact - all communications of the Ukrainian Armed Forces go through US systems.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        1) The answer is given above
                        And those who came up with this ever fought with an enemy who has both satellite reconnaissance and satellite communications? Will there be an answer or not?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        1) Why? I am asking for something very specific - a Ukrainian source and the LIVE words of a Ukrainian serviceman (video interview), and not what the journalist wanted to write.


                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Here are links to French, British and American sources.
                        https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2023/09/26/avec-les-soldats-ukrainiens-formes-a-l-etranger-je-leur-disais-aux-formateurs-de-l-otan-que-leurs-manuels-ne-s-appliquaient-pas-chez-nous_6191114_3210.html

                        https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/ukraine-russia-training-nato-west-military/

                        https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/07/world/europe/ukraine-marines-counteroffensive.html


                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        So is what the French, British and American media write true for you?
                        So you want to say that the Western media are engaged in pro-Russian propaganda?
                      8. 0
                        24 February 2024 14: 24
                        Judging by the comments, you're lying.

                        Or maybe everything is easier?
                        1) You do not understand the meaning of the comments and are drawing the wrong conclusions.
                        2) You are using a logical manipulation based on the argumentum ad hominem logical fallacy - an appeal to personality rather than to conclusions.
                        There is a fact - all communications of the Ukrainian Armed Forces go through US systems.

                        1) No. If only because Soviet communication systems are also used in parallel.
                        .2) Even if this were so, this is not an argument for “not being cut down,” that is, for the Armed Forces of Ukraine to have a built-in network-centric system with the same capabilities as the United States.
                        Will there be an answer or not?

                        Have you decided to go into parroting? Do you think that your level has not become clear to readers from previous repetitions?
                        Whether the enemy has satellite communications and intelligence or not, they will not disappear from the United States and NATO. Therefore, your manipulations are meaningless.
                        So you want to say that the Western media are engaged in pro-Russian propaganda?

                        What I want to say is what I say. Don't try to pass off your words as mine.
                        1) I want to see a video interview of a Ukrainian serviceman to a Ukrainian media resource.
                        2) I want to hear the answer to the question - is what the French, British and American media write true?
                      9. 0
                        24 February 2024 14: 54
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Or maybe everything is easier?
                        Said a man who is emanating bile from anger at the way his Bandera friends are being disposed of. It couldn't be simpler.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        1) No. At least because in parallel
                        All communication goes through Starlink, and therefore is controlled and organized by the United States, including in matters of secentricity, which all participants have repeatedly stated.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Have you decided to go into parroting?


                        Quote: Dart2027
                        And those who came up with this ever fought with an enemy who has both satellite reconnaissance and satellite communications? Will there be an answer or not?


                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What I want to say is what I say. Don't try to pass off your words as mine.
                        1) I want to see


                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Here are links to French, British and American sources.
                        https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2023/09/26/avec-les-soldats-ukrainiens-formes-a-l-etranger-je-leur-disais-aux-formateurs-de-l-otan-que-leurs-manuels-ne-s-appliquaient-pas-chez-nous_6191114_3210.html

                        https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/ukraine-russia-training-nato-west-military/

                        https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/07/world/europe/ukraine-marines-counteroffensive.html


                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I want to hear the answer to the question: is it true what the French, British and American media write?


                        Quote: Dart2027
                        So you want to say that the Western media are engaged in pro-Russian propaganda?
                    2. +2
                      21 February 2024 17: 12
                      And those who came up with this ever fought with an enemy who has both satellite reconnaissance and satellite communications?

                      And this is no longer their (US) problem that the rest are weak and cannot provide themselves with satellite reconnaissance and communications.
                      But the fact that the Russian army did not learn how to fight against such an enemy is, to put it mildly, regrettable.
                      I don’t remember how many times the Ukrainian military said that everything that NATO instructors teach them is only suitable against almost unarmed partisans.
                      Well, so remember.
                      It turns out that our army cannot cope with poorly trained enemy soldiers, whose level is fighting partisans? Cool, you belittled our aircraft, however!
                      And what specific actions do you propose?

                      There were plenty of offers on this resource... but for you it is much more relevant to storm the settlement head-on for many months.
                      1. -5
                        21 February 2024 17: 53
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        And this is no longer their (US) problem that the rest are weak and cannot provide themselves with satellite reconnaissance and communications.

                        That is not.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        It turns out that our army cannot cope with poorly trained enemy soldiers, whose level is fighting partisans?

                        It can’t be that in Ukraine it is forbidden to photograph cemeteries.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        There were plenty of offers on this resource... but

                        they all turned out to be beautiful slogans that had nothing to do with reality.
                      2. 0
                        21 February 2024 18: 07
                        they all turned out to be beautiful slogans that had nothing to do with reality.

                        Yes, yes, yes, they all turned out to be proposals and nothing more, only because otherwise we couldn’t do anything else.
                        It can’t be that in Ukraine it is forbidden to photograph cemeteries.

                        Of course it can’t, otherwise we wouldn’t be talking here (for almost two years now) about how we could defeat Ukraine.
                        That is not.

                        So what next?) Do you think they don’t consider such opportunities overseas? Should this make things easier for us?
                      3. -1
                        21 February 2024 18: 13
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Yes, yes, yes, they all turned out to be proposals and nothing more, just because

                        an attempt to implement them would end in huge losses. but the article provides a specific analysis of some of these theories - is there anything to say?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Of course it can’t, otherwise we wouldn’t be talking here (for almost two years now) about how we could defeat Ukraine.

                        That is, there are no objections.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        So what next?) Do you think they don’t consider such opportunities overseas?

                        That is, all these beautiful theories of “modern war” are just translations of paper.
                      4. 0
                        21 February 2024 18: 45
                        an attempt to implement them would end in huge losses. but the article provides a specific analysis of some of these theories - is there anything to say?

                        Gentlemen, you don’t even know the current losses during the assault on Avdeevka, what are you even talking about, you don’t know how difficult it is for these captured settlements, and at the same time you declare that the losses will be higher with a different approach!? Marvelous! Although the deceased Murz (may he rest in heaven) announced 16 thousand losses at Avdeevka.
                        That is, all these beautiful theories of “modern war” are just translations of paper.

                        No, that's what you want to believe!)
                        That is, there are no objections.

                        Regarding photographs of cemeteries, I don’t care, what’s the question? Why are you always slipping into demagoguery? I have no objections to the fact that our army cannot yet achieve the defeat of the enemy, whom, as YOU said, NATO members taught only how to fight partisans.
                      5. -3
                        21 February 2024 19: 55
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Gentlemen, you don’t even know the current losses during the assault on Avdeevka, what are you even talking about, you don’t know how difficult it is for these captured settlements, and at the same time you declare that the losses will be higher with a different approach!?

                        Well, tell me what the losses are, with the source, of course.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        No, that's what you want to believe!)
                        True eye pricks.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Regarding photographs of cemeteries, I don’t care, what’s the question?
                        About the fact that the only thing the Ukrainian Armed Forces can do is fill them up with corpses, but they’re running out of cannon fodder.
                        And, yes, they basically fight not as they were taught, but as they themselves learned, otherwise they would have been completely destroyed long ago.
                      6. 0
                        21 February 2024 21: 06
                        Well, tell me what the losses are, with the source, of course.

                        I'm telling you, you're a demagogue like no other)
                        Did I say somewhere that I know our losses? Murza’s post on his TG channel, where he talked about our losses, he naturally deleted under pressure, because of him, he was called to the carpet. And the Russian Ministry of Defense has not informed us about losses in principle since March 2022.
                        True eye pricks.

                        Why on earth? You yourself believed in your thesis, decided that it was true, based on YOUR own theories, and now you still say that it is true!?)))
                        About the fact that the only thing the Ukrainian Armed Forces can do is fill them up with corpses, but they’re running out of cannon fodder.
                        And, yes, they basically fight not as they were taught, but as they themselves learned, otherwise they would have been completely destroyed long ago.

                        Well, that means you won’t argue either that if the RF Ministry of Defense would have conducted a database with the Armed Forces of Ukraine differently, by gaining air supremacy, destroying logistics routes and air defense, and with deep coverage and encirclement of the enemy, and NOT as it is now...then would we have won faster?)
                      7. -2
                        21 February 2024 21: 32
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        I'm telling you, you're a demagogue like no other)
                        Did I say somewhere that I know our losses?
                        Really?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Gentlemen, you don’t even know the current losses during the assault on Avdeevka, what are you even talking about, you don’t know how difficult it is for these captured settlements, and at the same time you declare that the losses will be higher with a different approach!?
                        You claim that I don’t know something, but you know. An attempt at primitive manipulation?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Why on earth?
                        Since they have been dismantled more than once.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        that if the RF Ministry of Defense would have maintained a database with the Armed Forces of Ukraine differently, by
                        The air defense of the Ukrainian Armed Forces is ensured by the work of NATO structures, with which we are not directly at war. Just like everything else. Will there be more nonsense?
                      8. +1
                        21 February 2024 21: 49
                        You claim that I don’t know something, but you know. An attempt at primitive manipulation?
                        Of course, this is just an attempt on your part. You state that when maintaining the databases that I refer to will lead to greater losses (despite the fact that such actions were not carried out on our part), it is quite logical that you think that our losses with the current tactics of maintaining the database are small (although here, too, it’s worth finding out what are big losses for you and what are small ones?), therefore, you should know our current losses and could you share them? And if you don’t know what losses we currently have in the database near Avdeevka and in general, then why is it necessary to assert that other larger-scale tactics of action when breaking into the enemy’s defenses will lead to greater losses than with the current tactics?
                        Since they have been dismantled more than once.

                        Who parsed?
                        The air defense of the Ukrainian Armed Forces is ensured by the work of NATO structures, with which we are not directly at war. Just like everything else.

                        And what next, because of this air defense it is impossible to suppress the Hohlov!? The main thing is that when you fight with NATO and the USA, you tell them that they are not fighting honestly!
                        Will there be more nonsense?

                        Yes, it’s time for you to stop presenting this nonsense!)))
                      9. 0
                        21 February 2024 22: 27
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        You state that maintaining the databases to which I refer will lead to greater losses (despite the fact that no such actions were carried out on our part)

                        Is it true? At first, the SVO was carried out, but this had to be quickly abandoned. By the way, the article explains why bypass maneuvers across fields are a very bad idea.

                        Some readers and ordinary people will probably ask the question - why did they take Avdeevka head-on by storm, and not try to surround it and outflank it?
                        However, the very posing of such a question suggests that the person asking it does not fully understand the realities of the military conflict in Ukraine.
                        The realities of trench warfare make their own adjustments, since the positional deadlock has not really gone away. And this positional impasse lies in the fact that it is impossible to bypass cities from the flanks.
                        Initially, the command tried to attack Avdeevka from the flanks (for example, attacks on Petrovskoye/Stepovoe and Severnoye), but these attempts did not lead to anything. The reason for the failure is the inability to protect troops from precision artillery and the massive use of drones in open areas. Therefore, attempts to advance in the fields on both sides ended in defeat over and over again. But in the development zone, despite all the difficulties, progress was more successful.
                        The exact same thing happened in Bakhmut (Artyomovsk) - initially the fighters of the Wagner PMC tried to encircle it from the flanks, but such an attempt was a failure. Here the author will allow himself to quote one domestic Telegram channel, which quite accurately described why the battle for Bakhmut was reduced to head-on attacks and battles in urban areas.

                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        And if you don’t know what losses we currently have in the database near Avdeevka and in general, then why is it necessary to assert that other larger-scale tactics of action when breaking into the enemy’s defenses will lead to greater losses than with the current tactics?

                        Because large concentrations of manpower and equipment are big targets, as has been said more than once.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Who parsed?
                        Yes, look at this site.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        And what next, because of this air defense it is impossible to suppress the Hohlov!?
                        Well, figure out how to do this without shooting down NATO planes and satellites?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        The main thing is when you fight with NATO and the USA

                        And such a war will last half an hour, after which there will be neither us nor them left.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Yes, it’s time for you to stop presenting this nonsense!)))
                        Self-critical.
                      10. 0
                        21 February 2024 23: 04
                        Is it true? At first, the SVO was carried out, but this had to be quickly abandoned. By the way, the article explains why bypass maneuvers across fields are a very bad idea.

                        Vladimir Putin clearly explained to you why everything happened the way it did! They just deceived him again! lol
                        And so, in principle, more than once, and you were told, among other things, why everything failed in the beginning and what mistakes they made. And you are back to your old ways. Despite the fact that you yourself are in no hurry to describe the actions of the RF Armed Forces at the initial stage of the Northern Military District, how would you think it should have acted... you are against accumulations of large forces in the directions)
                        By the way, you yourself state further down the thread that the Ukrainian Armed Forces will not be able to turn every settlement into a fortification... which means that if you break through the defense with one decisive blow, then the Ukrainian Armed Forces simply will not have time to restore the defense and they will have to roll back even further, compared to at our current pace.
                        Because large concentrations of manpower and equipment are big targets, as has been said more than once.

                        Do you think that the entire mass of manpower and equipment will be collected at one point, and will not be dispersed?
                        There was also another point of view on this site. So I saw and read all this.
                        Well, figure out how to do this without shooting down NATO planes and satellites?

                        Everything has already been invented for us, NATO satellites and other US gadgets are not a solution to all problems for Ukraine... yes, it helps them, but in the end the same Ukrainian radars work, which must be endured. The question is about organization.
                        And such a war will last half an hour, after which there will be neither us nor them left.

                        This is unlikely.
                      11. 0
                        22 February 2024 05: 51
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Vladimir Putin clearly explained to you why everything happened the way it did! They just deceived him again!

                        It was assumed that there would be no serious war, but when it began, many things became very different.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        By the way, you yourself state further down the thread that the Ukrainian Armed Forces will not be able to turn every settlement into a fortification... which means that if you break through the defense with one decisive blow, then
                        To do this, you will have to expose the attackers to massive blows. The range of modern MLRS and UAVs is much more than a couple of kilometers, so they will hit the attackers with everything they have. So the assault tactics will be the same as now.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Do you think that the entire mass of manpower and equipment will be collected at one point, and will not be dispersed?
                        There was also another point of view on this site. So I saw and read all this.
                        In this case, there is no question of any massive strike. Now they are acting with dispersed forces.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        yes, it helps them, but in the end the same radars of ukrov that work
                        turn on literally for a matter of minutes, which, by the way, has also been explained more than once.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        This is unlikely.
                        A full-scale war with NATO means nuclear weapons.
                      12. -1
                        22 February 2024 08: 40
                        To do this, you will have to expose the attackers to massive blows. The range of modern MLRS and UAVs is much more than a couple of kilometers, so they will hit the attackers with everything they have. So the assault tactics will be the same as now.

                        Which, firstly, the enemy himself will need to bring up this artillery, because it goes without saying that the enemy will not know where exactly the main attack is planned, and secondly, no one has canceled the counter-battery fight. Thirdly, after suppressing air defense and gaining air supremacy, the defenders will no longer have anything to hit our advancing troops with.
                        In this case, there is no question of any massive strike. Now they are acting with dispersed forces.

                        Why do you think so? It’s just that no one has canceled the dispersal of units to avoid enemy artillery strikes. It doesn't matter whether you're going to attack or not.
                        Drills fortified settlements? And we see the result...they took a town located 10 km from Donetsk, which is undoubtedly a tactical success, but in fact what does it change? You took it, what next? Ugledar? OK! What next? How long will this “further” last? And how many people will we lose in such platoon and company assaults? Why do we need to go there into these fortified settlements?
                        turn on literally for a matter of minutes, which, by the way, has also been explained more than once.

                        Which are detected by reconnaissance aircraft, demonstration groups and satellites, which we also have by the way, albeit not in such quantities, and are suppressed by aviation and massive strikes by the fleet's SLCMs... you just need to organize all this well, be it reconnaissance, be it missiles blows...because what is being observed now is just such a haphazard approach! Because apparently there are no special plans to end the existence of the state of Ukraine, since any sensible person, politician or military man understands that the war needs to be won as quickly as possible.
                        A full-scale war with NATO is nuclear weapons

                        I understand what you're getting at.
                      13. -3
                        22 February 2024 10: 04
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        after all, it goes without saying that the enemy will not know where exactly the main attack is planned

                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Thirdly, after suppressing air defense and gaining air supremacy
                        Another strategist stuck in the last century. Where are you going with satellite reconnaissance?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        counter-battery warfare has not been canceled
                        Especially against UAVs and MLRS, firing from extreme distances. The enemy also knows about it and will not substitute it, and covering an advancing division is easier than a couple of installations.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Why do you think so? It’s just that no one has canceled the dispersal of units to avoid enemy artillery strikes.
                        Then what are you unhappy with?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        What next? How long will this “further” last?
                        Until the enemy army is destroyed.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Why do we need to go there into these fortified settlements?
                        Because teleportation directly behind enemy lines is not yet possible.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Which are detected by reconnaissance aircraft, demonstration groups and satellites, which we also have by the way, albeit not in such quantities, and are suppressed by aviation and massive strikes by the fleet's SLCMs... we just need to organize all this well
                        If the enemy is so stupid that he will not constantly change their location and if he will not be supplied with new systems to replace the knocked out ones. Their air defense is knocked out as much as possible according to the same scenario, the same Patriots have already arrived, but this is not a matter for one day.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        since any sane person, politician or military man understands that the war needs to be won as quickly as possible
                        Like in WWII?
                      14. +1
                        22 February 2024 17: 06
                        Another strategist stuck in the last century. Where are you going with satellite reconnaissance?

                        Is satellite reconnaissance a panacea for all problems or what? What will the accumulation of equipment at different commands give you, besides the idea that an offensive is being prepared?
                        Especially against UAVs and MLRS, firing from extreme distances. The enemy also knows about it and will not substitute it, and covering an advancing division is easier than a couple of installations.

                        They will no longer have time for her, since air supremacy will already be ours, and in addition to counter-battery combat, she will be engaged in destruction.
                        Because teleportation directly behind enemy lines is not yet possible.

                        No, it’s impossible, but you simply don’t know anything else other than frontal assaults, so it seems that there are no options. And you also don’t know that the losses of several days during a major offensive will be greater than during multi-month assaults on each settlement.
                        If the enemy is so stupid that he will not constantly change their location and if he will not be supplied with new systems to replace the knocked out ones. Their air defense is knocked out as much as possible according to the same scenario, the same Patriots have already arrived, but this is not a matter for one day.

                        For this, the air defense suppression system must work normally, it must be proven, any air defense can be detected and overloaded. But this is how it is with us... today we will hit the air defense, tomorrow in some workshop, etc., etc., no system, and if we really take on the suppression of air defense, the enemy simply will not have time to replenish them and naturally this will not work one day, the air defense will be knocked out before the group is assembled for the offensive.
                        Like in WWII?

                        Oh, stop suffering with nonsense...with the current approach, our grandfathers would have been poking around in WWII for who knows how long. And the Germans’ plan Barbarossa almost worked; they allotted 4 months to defeat the USSR and reach the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line. That is, even they had a plan. Our NOW, even the plans are not clear, now they will take Avdiivka for a couple more settlements and say that the SVO is considered successful, and that’s all!
                        And any conflict serves as an example, everywhere the enemy counts on the quick destruction of the enemy and victory... Desert Storm, Yugoslavia is an example of this.
                        Until the enemy army is destroyed.

                        Well, in short, this war is doomed and will last for years, and the Russian army will continue to lose people in frontal assaults
                      15. 0
                        22 February 2024 18: 43
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Is satellite reconnaissance a panacea for all problems or what? What will the accumulation of equipment at different commands give you, besides the idea that an offensive is being prepared?
                        For example, the exact place where they will attack. Well, the coordinates where to shoot.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        They will no longer care about it, since air supremacy will already be ours,
                        It’s interesting how many times it is necessary to remind that the Ukrainian air defense is a branch of NATO air defense.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        And you also don’t know that the losses of several days during a major offensive will be greater than during months-long assaults on each settlement.
                        Did Nostradamus say that it will last for several days?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Oh, stop suffering from nonsense...with the current approach, our grandfathers would have been poking around in WWII for who knows how long.
                        And near Moscow. Where now?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        And any conflict serves as an example, everywhere the enemy counts on the quick destruction of the enemy and victory... Desert Storm, Yugoslavia is an example of this.
                        This is when small countries that were an order of magnitude inferior in all respects were destroyed by the full might of NATO? Aren't you tired of embarrassing yourself?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Well, in short, this war is doomed and will last for years, and the Russian army will continue to lose people in frontal assaults
                        Go ahead and show me how.
                      16. 0
                        22 February 2024 19: 27
                        For example, the exact place where they will attack. Well, the coordinates where to shoot.

                        They will not know this, they can only guess in which direction and where the attackers always have an advantage.
                        Yes, of course they will know, but with what? What if aviation methodically clears everything around after the air defense is suppressed?
                        I wonder how many times it is necessary to remind that Ukrainian air defense is a branch of NATO air defense

                        How many times can one remind that the air defense of Ukraine is not a structure subordinate to NATO and does not have a unified data exchange network. And AWACS is not able to look as far as you think, stop talking heresy! Who is firing at the takeoffs of our aviation from the north and east of Ukraine!?
                        Did Nostradamus say that it will last for several days?

                        I don’t deny that there may be problems in certain areas, but it all depends on how the operation is worked out.
                        This is when small countries that were an order of magnitude inferior in all respects were destroyed by the full might of NATO? Aren't you tired of embarrassing yourself?

                        It’s you who are disgracing yourself now...Ukriana was also inferior to us in everything at the beginning of the Northern Military District, but as they say, the result is obvious! Some people just wanted to win, prepared and won, and some have now been poking around in Ukraine for two years and don’t know what to do next and are making excuses.
                        Go ahead and show me how.

                        Nooo, I’d better see how you storm Ugledar, I’m sure you can handle it!
                      17. 0
                        22 February 2024 19: 35
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        neither will know this, they can only guess in which direction
                        The offensive is not carried out somewhere, but where it makes sense, so if a strike group gathers at point A, then it will attack at point B.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        How many times can one remind that the air defense of Ukraine is not a structure subordinate to NATO and does not have a unified data exchange network.
                        And Ukraine is independent from the United States. Aren't you tired of telling fairy tales?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        I don’t deny that there may be problems in certain areas, but
                        in a few days you can capture some Luxembourg. Territories of this size are not instantly captured.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        At the beginning of the Northern Military District, Ukraine was also inferior to us in everything, but as they say, the result is obvious!
                        But NATO is behind her, and who was behind Libya and Yugoslavia? Aren't you tired of embarrassing yourself?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Nope, I'd better take a look
                        Even before the start of the Northern Military District, everyone who knew better how to fight was for some reason sitting at home.
                      18. 0
                        22 February 2024 20: 15
                        The offensive is carried out not just anywhere, but where it makes sense, so if a strike force gathers at point A, then it will attack at point B

                        Well, of course... but it’s crazy how the enemy knows where exactly the blow will be struck and what goals we are going to achieve... he can only guess and that’s all.
                        And Ukraine is independent from the United States. Aren't you tired of telling fairy tales?

                        What does THIS have to do with the Ukrainian air defense system!?
                        in a few days you can capture some Luxembourg. Territories of this size are not instantly captured.

                        It was about breaking through the defenses, and not about seizing huge amounts of territory.
                        But NATO is behind her, and who was behind Libya and Yugoslavia? Aren't you tired of embarrassing yourself?

                        Firstly, not Libya, but Iraq. Secondly, you are disgracing yourself, aren’t you tired of repeating this mantra? You are just a first grade nursery group, making some kind of excuses for everything. Which NATO stood behind Ukraine and what amount of assistance did NATO provide to Ukraine before the North Military District? Have you forgotten already? What prevented our country from preparing normally for a future conflict? Probably some kind of illusion.
                        Even before the start of the Northern Military District, everyone who knew better how to fight was for some reason sitting at home.

                        And you included?
                        It’s interesting to ask...what adequate person needs war at all!? Probably for you?
                        But you, too, are not particularly eager to storm the Khokhlov fortifications.
                        PS All the best
                      19. 0
                        22 February 2024 22: 21
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Well, of course... but who knows, how can the enemy know where exactly the blow will be struck and what goals we are going to achieve... he can only
                        Look at the map. Any offensive is planned taking into account the geography of the theater of military operations.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        What does THIS have to do with the Ukrainian air defense system!?
                        The fact that it is part of NATO.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        It was about breaking through the defense
                        What about defense from the front trench? A full-fledged defense breakthrough means the seizure of a significant territory.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Firstly, not Libya, but Iraq.
                        Secondly, both Libya and Iraq were destroyed by NATO, according to one scenario.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Secondly, you are disgracing yourself, aren’t you tired of repeating this mantra? You are just a first grade nursery group, making some kind of excuses for everything.
                        That you are self-critical.
                        So who was behind Yugoslavia, Libya and Iraq? Will there be an answer?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Which NATO stood behind Ukraine and what amount of assistance did NATO provide to Ukraine before the North Military District?
                        Which NATO stood behind Ukraine and how much assistance did NATO provide to Ukraine after the start of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        What prevented our country from preparing normally for a future conflict?
                        Judging by the howl there, they prepared normally. Another thing is that with the outbreak of hostilities, new factors always emerge.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        And you included?
                        And I teach our military to fight? You are so smart, so set an example.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        It’s interesting to ask...what adequate person needs war at all!? Probably for you?
                        That is, there is nothing to argue.
                      20. 0
                        22 February 2024 23: 16
                        [quote]Any offensive is planned taking into account the geography of the theater of military operations.[/quote]
                        And in the end, the enemy still has no choice but to assume.
                        [quote]The fact that it is part of NATO[/quote]
                        How? How is Ukraine's air defense directly linked to NATO?
                        [quote]You are being self-critical.[/quote]
                        Yes, I'm talking about you
                        [quote][So who stood behind Yugoslavia, Libya and Iraq? Will there be an answer?/quote]
                        What does it matter? Why should I answer this stupid question...if further you begin to present your banal excuses?)
                        [quote]Which NATO stood behind Ukraine and how much assistance did NATO provide to Ukraine after the start of the Northeast Military District?[/quote]
                        After the start, nothing special. Serious deliveries began only after our troops retreated from Kyiv and left the north of Ukraine.
                        Now answer my question in the previous comment, or do you still have the memory of a fish?
                        [quote]Judging by the howling there, they prepared normally.[/quote]
                        And what kind of howl is there? Are you imagining a hike? laughing
                        [quote]And I teach our military to fight? You are so smart, so set an example.[/quote]
                        Well, firstly, I haven’t taught them yet, at least I discussed it here.
                        Secondly... no, you didn’t teach anyone, you just took a comfortable position, because it’s easier this way, you’re not the one to go into these assaults, right? And to those who think differently, you can say, “You’re so smart, go and show it!” lol
                      21. 0
                        22 February 2024 23: 23
                        That is, there is nothing to object

                        Why should I object, they didn’t invite me, I didn’t go. Another question... is that everyone hoped and believed that the Russian Defense Ministry and the army were ready for anything, but it turned out... as it turned out! And in general, then no one even suspected that we would attack Ukraine first
                      22. 0
                        23 February 2024 06: 43
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        And in the end, the enemy still has no choice but to assume.
                        Before he looks at the map.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        How? How is Ukraine's air defense directly linked to NATO?
                        Receiving information.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Yes, I'm talking about you
                        Self-critical.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        What does it matter? Why should I answer this stupid question...if further you begin to present your banal excuses?)
                        So who was behind Yugoslavia, Libya and Iraq? Will there be an answer?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Serious deliveries began only after our troops retreated from Kyiv and left the north of Ukraine.
                        That is, almost immediately.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Now answer my question in the previous comment, or do you still have the memory of a fish?

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Judging by the howl there, they prepared normally. Another thing is that with the outbreak of hostilities, new factors always emerge.

                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        And what kind of howl is there?
                        At the moment, where can we get 500000 sheep for slaughter?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Well, firstly, I haven’t taught them yet, at least I discussed it here.
                        So show me how it should be done.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Secondly... no, you didn’t teach anyone, you just took a comfortable position, because it’s easier this way, you’re not the one to go into these assaults, right?
                        Said by a man who demands that troops be sent to the slaughter.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Another question...that everyone hoped and believed that the Russian Defense Ministry and the army were ready for anything, but it turned out...as it turned out! And in general, then no one even suspected that we would attack Ukraine first
                        Yes, yes, yes... The United States was the first to attack, organizing a Bandera coup.
                      23. 0
                        23 February 2024 08: 54
                        Receiving information.

                        More specifically, please, how is the Ukrainian air defense system interconnected with NATO?
                        Judging by the howl there, they prepared normally. Another thing is that with the outbreak of hostilities, new factors always emerge.

                        It’s funny how you imagine the army’s readiness for a conflict with Ukraine, having been fighting for 2 years, but this is not the answer to my question.
                        So who was behind Yugoslavia, Libya and Iraq? Will there be an answer?

                        Why do you need it if you already know very well? Are you trying to prove something with my answer? I said, I don’t need to answer this stupid question in order to read your justifications once again.
                        That is, almost immediately.

                        That is, after all, you have a memory like a fish. If you really don’t remember, refresh your memory and read how it happened, everything is in the public domain. Something else is important here...that when the North Military District began, it didn’t have all these delights that Ukraine now has from NATO and the USA, that is, you are still trying to present it as if only because of NATO and the USA, we are still messing around with the Ukrainians. But in fact, all this help, which you are blaming from the West, was not even a hint in the first months of the Northern Military District. It’s just that the army was not ready for a real war, and the government lived in illusions and made mistakes.
                        Said by a man who demands that troops be sent to the slaughter.

                        Despite the fact that people are now being ground down against these fortifications, and the state is actually already doing this?
                        The United States was the first to attack, organizing Bandera's coup.

                        We are talking about a specific date...24.02.2022, when our troops began the Northern Military District and entered the territory of Ukraine. I understand that the United States had an influence in 2014 on the further development of Ukraine, which of course we could not dislike, but they sent troops into a sovereign country with a legitimate government (which our country still recognizes) and that’s it, no matter how you we were dodging like a snake, that can’t be changed.
                      24. -2
                        23 February 2024 09: 21
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        How is Ukraine's air defense system interconnected with NATO?
                        Receiving information.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        It's funny how you
                        trying to get away from the inconvenient fact that all of NATO is behind Ukraine’s back.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Why do you need it if you already know very well? Are you trying to prove something with my answer?
                        So who was behind Yugoslavia, Libya and Iraq? Will there be an answer?
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Something else is important here...when did the SVO begin?
                        It took some time to arrange the supply of weapons and ammunition, because such things cannot be done instantly.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Given that now
                        An offensive is being carried out according to all the rules for breaking defenses.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        We are talking about a specific date...
                        November 21, 2013, when there was no Ukraine, although even before that it was a very conditional entity, because its creation was Lenin’s project, and no matter how hard you try, this cannot be changed.
                      25. 0
                        23 February 2024 09: 34
                        Receiving information

                        In short, you don’t know exactly how. Not surprising.
                        trying to get away from the inconvenient fact that all of NATO is behind Ukraine’s back

                        Which at the beginning of the Northern Military District did not help Ukraine in any way, since...
                        It took some time to arrange the supply of weapons and ammunition, because such things cannot be done instantly.

                        It follows from this that our country squandered its chance to defeat Ukraine relatively bloodlessly, due to illusions at the top of the state. For the West, having seen the strength, would not, even as it is now, invest in a obviously losing adventure
                        Finally we completed the puzzle! Progress! laughing
                        An offensive is being carried out according to all the rules for breaking defenses.

                        Your understanding of these rules is strange, to put it mildly.laughing
                        November 21, 2013, when there was no Ukraine, although even before that it was a very conditional entity, because its creation was Lenin’s project, and no matter how hard you try, this cannot be changed.

                        Then, what kind of state entity and government does the government of the Russian Federation recognize? What if such a state does not exist? wassat
                      26. 0
                        23 February 2024 12: 14
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        In short
                        There is nothing to object to.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        It follows from this that our country
                        is at war with the entire NATO, which made excellent use of the factor of vast territories that could not be captured instantly, as was the case in Crimea.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Your understanding of these rules is strange, to put it mildly.
                        That is, there is nothing to say.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Then, what kind of state entity and government does the government of the Russian Federation recognize?
                        US Colonial Administration.
                      27. 0
                        23 February 2024 17: 00
                        There is nothing to object to.

                        I already said everything - “you Dart2027 know nothing”laughing
                        is at war with the entire NATO, which made excellent use of the factor of vast territories that could not be captured instantly, as was the case in Crimea.

                        NATO didn’t show up for the war, and Russia has already lost, you made us look like idiots in your fantasies, it turns out that geography is to blame, not NATO and Ukraine laughing
                        And Russia turns out to be unprepared again.
                        That is, there is nothing to say.

                        Why? I've already said everything, you probably still don't see well tongue
                        US Colonial Administration

                        It’s strange, but Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin does not support your sick fantasy wassat
                      28. -2
                        23 February 2024 17: 12
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        I've already said everything
                        that you don't know anything. I understand.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        NATO to war
                        has spent all its resources and now does not know where else to get weapons, and Russia continues to press, intensifying the onslaught and going on the offensive.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        I've already said everything
                        when I tried to cite as an example a war with an enemy that was an order of magnitude inferior in all respects.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        So who was behind Yugoslavia, Libya and Iraq? Will there be an answer?

                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin
                        understands perfectly what needs to be said in official speeches.
                      29. 0
                        23 February 2024 17: 21
                        I understood

                        Thank you for confirming your ignorance
                        understands perfectly what needs to be said in official speeches.

                        Yesss yes yes, and Dart2027 is sitting behind the scenes giving advice laughing
                      30. 0
                        23 February 2024 19: 36
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Thank you for confirming your ignorance
                        Self-critical.
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Yesss yes yes, and Dart2027 is sitting behind the scenes giving advice
                        Putin is not Biden, he himself knows perfectly well when and what to say.
                      31. 0
                        23 February 2024 19: 50
                        Putin is not Biden, he himself knows perfectly well when and what to say.

                        Of course he knows, I don’t doubt it, that’s why he says what he thinks and recognizes the sovereignty of Ukraine)
                        Self-critical

                        What kind of self-critical people you and I are? laughing
                        Be there...and yes, happy holiday
                      32. 0
                        23 February 2024 20: 28
                        Quote: Sanguinius
                        Of course he knows, I don’t doubt it, that’s why he says that
                        the politician should speak. Well, the Lenin Ukraine project will either be closed completely or reduced to the size of the Lviv region.
  10. +21
    21 February 2024 06: 54
    Strategically, the capture of Avdiivka will not change anything - there are plenty of similar settlements in Ukraine and battles for each of them will be accompanied by large losses, and not only those from Ukrovka, as some people think. From the conclusions - the battles for Avdeevka showed the inability of the RF Armed Forces to conduct battles with large formations due to the lack of such - the lid of the boiler 4 km away remained unslammed and the Ukrovsky formations were able to leave this boiler, albeit in shabby form. True, the other day the staver passed off this weakness as a revolution in military affairs belay
    1. -8
      21 February 2024 08: 26
      there’s no need to storm everything, after Bakhmut it took half a year to recover, out of thousands of villages it’s impossible to turn every one into a fortress
    2. -7
      21 February 2024 08: 32
      Honestly, talk nonsense, look at the map and start with the basics, what forces and means are needed for encirclement, and so on. Regarding Artemovsk and Aadeevka, these are cities of different scale, location, number of buildings and degree of fortification.
      And Biryukov, the author, is an eternal grumbler, with him it’s not like this, not like that, but he himself can never offer anything.
    3. -15
      21 February 2024 09: 32
      Quote: NIkodim
      There are plenty of similar settlements in Ukraine and battles for each of them will be accompanied by large losses, and not only those from Ukrov, as some people think

      And each of them is a fortified area that took 10 years to create?
      Quote: NIkodim
      From the conclusions - the battles for Avdeevka showed the inability of the RF Armed Forces to conduct battles in large formations due to the lack of such

      Go to the front line, show us how it should be done.
      1. +7
        21 February 2024 12: 30
        Quote: Dart2027
        And each of them is a fortified area that took 10 years to create?

        While they took Avdeevka for two years, they still built these fortified areas.
        1. -2
          21 February 2024 14: 09
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          They also built these fortified areas

          Also fortified?
          1. +2
            21 February 2024 17: 18
            Quote: Dart2027
            Also fortified?

            It wouldn't be better.
            1. -2
              21 February 2024 17: 45
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              It wouldn't be better.

              Can I have a source? But something is not going well for the Armed Forces of Ukraine in new positions.
              1. +2
                21 February 2024 19: 21
                Quote: Dart2027
                Can I have a source? But something is not going well for the Armed Forces of Ukraine in new positions.

                Look on YouTube to see how they build using specialists and construction equipment.
                1. -2
                  21 February 2024 19: 59
                  Quote: Mordvin 3
                  how they build using specialists and construction equipment

                  AND? I know what they are building, but it’s just one thing to build for several years and in a calm environment, and quite another thing now, when the enemy is about to approach. Yes, there are still fortified areas and they are still being built and will be built, but the level is already much lower than those that were built before the Northern Military District.
                  1. +3
                    21 February 2024 21: 21
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Yes, there are still fortified areas and they are still being built and will be built, but the level is already much lower than those that were built before the Northern Military District.

                    On the contrary, we have accumulated experience, and the enemy at the gate is very motivating. This is not the construction of Yatsenyuk’s wall.
                    1. -1
                      21 February 2024 21: 34
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      On the contrary, experience has been accumulated
                      The principles of building fortified areas have not changed for who knows how many years, so they have not learned anything new.
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      it’s just one thing to build over several years and in a calm environment, and quite another thing right now
                      1. +2
                        21 February 2024 21: 38
                        Previously, they did not use UAVs that could fly into the dugout. What's the point of arguing? We'll see how things go further.
                      2. -2
                        21 February 2024 22: 19
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        We'll see how things go further.

                        Depends on how much cannon fodder the Ukrainian Armed Forces can scrape together.
                      3. 0
                        23 February 2024 17: 45
                        Depends on how much cannon fodder the Ukrainian Armed Forces can scrape together

                        Are immortal clones fighting in the RF Armed Forces? Or do we have queues of military registration and enlistment offices besieging them and not allowing them to close in the evening?
                        Go to the front line, show us how it should be done.

                        We must think that you are already on the front line?
                      4. 0
                        23 February 2024 19: 38
                        Quote: UAZ 452
                        Are immortal clones fighting in the RF Armed Forces?
                        Not immortal, but losses are an order of magnitude less.
                        Quote: UAZ 452
                        Or do we have queues of military registration and enlistment offices besieging them and not allowing them to close in the evening?
                        We look at the articles on this site about the number of people who have signed a contract.
                        Quote: UAZ 452
                        You're already on the front line
                        So you know everything better than the military, so show me.
                      5. 0
                        23 February 2024 20: 20
                        Not immortal, but losses are an order of magnitude less.

                        That is, the Armed Forces of Ukraine lost 4 thousand killed in 160 months in Avdeevka? Then it’s true - soon, if not Kyiv, then Kharkov will certainly be ours.
                      6. 0
                        23 February 2024 20: 30
                        Quote: UAZ 452
                        That is, the Armed Forces of Ukraine lost 4 thousand killed in 160 months in Avdeevka?

                        Haven’t you heard that Zelensky and the command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are now looking for an opportunity to urgently mobilize 500000 people?
                      7. 0
                        23 February 2024 22: 14
                        So on this site, like, experts argue - 300 thousand will be mobilized after the elections or 500 immediately. That is, in your opinion, this certainly indicates that the losses of the RF Armed Forces are at this level? I think it's still less.
                      8. -1
                        24 February 2024 06: 46
                        Quote: UAZ 452
                        So on this site, experts are arguing whether 300 thousand will be mobilized after the elections or 500 immediately.
                        And that mobilization has already been scheduled?
                      9. 0
                        24 February 2024 08: 51
                        But before the previous one, didn’t all the officials, even a few days before the decree was issued, assure that it would not happen, because it could never happen?
                      10. -1
                        24 February 2024 12: 42
                        Quote: UAZ 452
                        But maybe before the previous one

                        Then the Ukrainian Armed Forces began to be filled with corpses, but now they don’t have much of a supply of cannon fodder.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Haven’t you heard that Zelensky and the command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are now looking for an opportunity to urgently mobilize 500000 people?
                        I take it that there will be no objections to this?
  11. -1
    21 February 2024 08: 43
    The task of liberating the territory of Donbass remains relevant. It is impossible to accomplish it without occupying cities. Without mobilization, it is impossible to carry out larger-scale operations. Carrying out mobilization poses many problems that are perhaps more significant than acquisitions.

    Therefore, the operation is carried out with available forces as quickly as possible, taking into account reserves and resources. Based on this, the operation was undoubtedly successful, the enemy suffered losses, lost territory, lost a fortified area - and it is unknown whether he managed to build the same one somewhere nearby. In addition, elections are coming soon and the authorities need success.

    This means that Avdeevka is a success, perhaps the maximum, taking into account the balance of forces.

    The scale of success will be shown in the near future, when we see how much the enemy’s forces have lost their combat capability and how quickly they will recover.
  12. +8
    21 February 2024 09: 16
    it is impossible to bypass cities from the flanks

    Because this is something that is interpreted as a mistake in all classical textbooks on military affairs. Under no circumstances can an offensive be carried out against the enemy’s near flank. Simply because he can transfer reserves to dangerous places faster than you.. And now - also carry out fire impact on the advancing troops..

    That is why the strategists of the past wrote - it is necessary to attack against the far flank, and its goal should be access to the enemy’s long-range communications... With subsequent desired encirclement.

    So, of course, an attempt to bypass a fortified area on a patch of 50 kilometers in diameter ends either in failure or only in partial success. With inevitable big losses...
    1. -3
      21 February 2024 14: 10
      Quote: paul3390
      That is why the strategists of the past wrote

      And when they wrote, did satellite reconnaissance already exist?
      1. +5
        21 February 2024 15: 09
        A satellite is not a magic wand. And not the Eye of Sauron. There are a lot of examples when commanders, even having fairly complete information about the location and composition of the enemy’s troops, still drew the wrong conclusions from it..

        As teacher Sun wrote, war is the path of deception..
        1. -1
          21 February 2024 17: 46
          Quote: paul3390
          A satellite is not a magic wand. And not the Eye of Sauron.

          That is, it was not.
          Quote: paul3390
          when commanders, even having fairly complete information about the location and composition of the enemy’s troops, still drew the wrong conclusions from it

          Which does not mean that you can do without intelligence.
  13. +12
    21 February 2024 09: 53
    Minor tactical success. If things continue like this - months-long battles for each regional center, we must prepare for decades of this Putin-era military district, which we will pass on to our children, if not grandchildren.
    1. -5
      21 February 2024 10: 16
      Quote: vet
      Minor tactical success.

      we live in a world of symbols smile how the destruction of a symbol of inaccessibility is a strategic victory
      1. +4
        21 February 2024 12: 59
        They don’t have dozens of such fortresses, and any town can be turned into a fortress, but there are thousands of them.
        1. +4
          21 February 2024 21: 25
          So the author justifies the assault on such fortresses head-on and also justifies that this is beneficial to us. In such assaults, the attacking side always suffers more losses than the defending side. The author does his best to justify our inability to encircle the enemy; the author does not understand that we will destroy our army if we continue to attack the fortified areas head-on.
  14. +4
    21 February 2024 10: 37
    The author distorts a lot. There are enough differences in these battles. If in Artemovsk the Ukrainians fought to the last house, then in Avdeevka this was no longer the case; as soon as our units took the main transport arteries of the Ukrainian Federal Unitary Forces under close fire control, their defenses began to shake and the units began an independent, uncontrolled retreat.
    Next, let's talk about aviation. Here is the definition of what is considered "air superiority".
    “Air supremacy, the decisive superiority of the aviation of one of the warring parties in the airspace of a theater of war or in a strategic (operational) direction (in an area), allowing ground forces, naval forces, air forces and the rear of the country (coalition of countries) to carry out their tasks without significant opposition from enemy aviation and air defense. Air supremacy can be achieved in one or simultaneously several theaters of war for a long time - strategic dominance, in a separate strategic or operational direction for the period of an operation - operational dominance. The short-term acquisition of initiative in the air by aviation units, units or individual formations in a limited area is usually called tactical air supremacy.”
    I hope the author will not persist and claim that at least “tactical air superiority” has been achieved. And only thanks to him, every day at least 80 guided bombs flew into our enemy’s positions, and in the last days of the fighting, over 200
  15. -8
    21 February 2024 11: 05
    Quote: Stas157
    Quote: north 2
    secret signs are encrypted in the article

    Let's at least not start a witch hunt here.

    There is no need to hunt here. One thing: “how many Avdeevkas are there?” what is it worth? I think there are not many such fortifications. Well, about the lack of air supremacy, well, both sides worked as FABAs, these are generally dill dreams. And the cut is no longer in the forehead.
    Author's theses: the war is positional, the bitches did not surrender but came out with dignity, you will be tired of swallowing dust, take all of Avdeevka. Can you catch guys from all Avdeevka?
  16. 0
    21 February 2024 12: 06
    this is an article))) an open secret has been revealed) and we were wondering why everything is like this)
  17. +5
    21 February 2024 12: 28
    What are the results? The regime is not going to capitulate yet. So far these results...
  18. -1
    21 February 2024 12: 49
    In conditions of a positional deadlock, when neither side has air supremacy, cannot knock out enemy artillery and defend against drones, neither the Russian Armed Forces nor the Ukrainian Armed Forces can offer anything other than exhausting and bloody frontal assaults.


    A clear explanation of frontal assaults on cities. This means that in the future, in open areas, the same scenarios will develop and there is no escape from this. It's a pity!
  19. +5
    21 February 2024 13: 14
    The author concluded that, as a result, Avdeevka’s situation will not affect the overall strategy. Although before this, some experts, and even here in the comments, said that this would be a turning point. Let's see.
    On the other hand, as they write, the enemy withdrew the main forces from there, and losses of a couple of thousand among the forces are essentially not critical for them.
    1. +4
      21 February 2024 13: 48
      Taking one village will not change the weather.
  20. +3
    21 February 2024 13: 46
    The positional deadlock continues!
  21. +7
    21 February 2024 13: 47
    Oh, and our government loves to criticize Stalin, Zhukov and other heroes of the Fatherland for supposed “meat assaults.”
    And then he does exactly the same thing.
    To the fallen - eternal memory and glory. The staff and Kremlin clowns are an eternal shame.
  22. +5
    21 February 2024 13: 48
    If we talk about the objective side of military affairs, then offensive weapons developed in parallel with defensive ones - these are tactical nuclear weapons and missiles of the SS-20 RSD type. These funds are already decades old. And there can be no positional deadlocks here.

    But the political initiative was such that the use of powerful offensive weapons was in fact prohibited. Or they are completely destroyed, like the SS-20. The result is positional tactics. A natural advantage goes to those who have their heads on their shoulders.... ..and those who do not scatter their territories in order to return them later. Only stupid people have dead ends.
  23. +5
    21 February 2024 14: 03
    Quote: Uncle Lee
    There are many more towns like Avdeevka in the Donbass.
    This means there will be many more losses...

    Or a deal. sad
    1. -2
      21 February 2024 14: 13
      Those in power in Ukraine will not agree to an agreement now, and the West, after Razvalny’s death, has become embittered; they will not push the current regime to reach an agreement in the near future. And in the near future, until the election of a new secretary of the Washington Regional Committee. A new forester will come and restore order smile
  24. -3
    21 February 2024 14: 46
    Quote: kor1vet1974
    Those in power in Ukraine will not agree to an agreement now, and the West, after Razvalny’s death, has become embittered; they will not push the current regime to reach an agreement in the near future. And in the near future, until the election of a new secretary of the Washington Regional Committee. A new forester will come and restore order smile

    Washington Regional Committee - Who are you talking about? What about Biden, Blinken, and other American Jews who rule the States? Then you can also mention the Rothschilds, Rockefelleroffs, Du Ponts, Vanderbilts, and another group of Jewish bankers. It was they who unleashed the Second World War, who raised the Jew Schicklgruber, the Gestapo men Barbier, Eichmann, and many others! And now who is in the leadership of the country 404? The same characters. International Zionism is waging war against our country, I will not tire of repeating. I am not an anti-Semite, but I am an anti-Zionist sad
    1. +4
      21 February 2024 15: 55
      At the same time, at least two Russian presidents, in the regional committee of international Zionism, swore to their mother to fight communism... until their last breath. One of them, in ecstasy, agreed to the words “God bless America!”.. But they were probably pretending , ingratiated yourself, right?
  25. +4
    21 February 2024 16: 25
    Quote: kor1vet1974
    At the same time, at least two Russian presidents, in the regional committee of international Zionism, swore to their mother to fight communism... until their last breath. One of them, in ecstasy, agreed to the words “God bless America!”.. But they were probably pretending , ingratiated yourself, right?

    Of course, the extreme admitted publicly, in an interview with Carlson, that for these freaks to become their own, they destroyed the state. Did you listen to the interview carefully? sad
  26. +11
    21 February 2024 16: 51
    The price for Avdeevka was announced by the now deceased Alexander Morozov (Murz), after which the command called to him, the result was that he shot himself at night, it’s not good to speak badly about the command of Laos, according to him, they told him to remain silent or the former ghost of Mozgovoy would lose everything, as you can see, he could not remain silent , decided to leave. And he voiced terrible numbers, with such losses, if we advance, then by the time we reach the Dnieper, the male population of Russia will end sooner, unless of course the Ukrainians continue to fight just as stubbornly. Well, judging by yesterday’s formation in the field, he was 300% right about command.
  27. +7
    21 February 2024 17: 23
    The late Murz, of blessed memory, spoke of 16 thousand dead.
  28. 0
    21 February 2024 17: 46
    There are many more towns like Avdeevka in Donbass

    Since artillery and drones in “open areas are capable of inflicting many times greater losses on light infantry than in built-up areas.” then this should ease the attack.
  29. 0
    21 February 2024 17: 49
    Quote: Alt22
    The late Murz, of blessed memory, spoke of 16 thousand dead.

    Is this for the entire period from 2022 or from 2014?
    1. -1
      21 February 2024 20: 39
      In the Middle Ages, special assault artillery called a bombard was used to storm the walls of cities and fortresses; an example of this weapon can be seen in the Military Historical Museum of Vienna, 750 mm, weight about 8 tons, projectile weight 700 kg, range up to 1 km, made of strips of hand-forged iron in the middle 15th century, the bombard fought for the 3rd century. If its likeness is made at a modern level and installed on a tank chassis in place of the turret, then many problems of assault can be solved, a single-shot installation went to a distance, fired one shot with a mine or a large-caliber projectile, hit the target and left for reloading
    2. +4
      21 February 2024 21: 30
      No, this is only starting from October 2023, when the decisive assault began.
    3. +1
      22 February 2024 12: 41
      This is for the period from October 2023 to February 2024. Taking into account the fact that Avdiivka has been hollowed out since February 2022, albeit not on such a large scale, you can imagine the level of losses yourself.
    4. 0
      22 February 2024 19: 29
      This is for the last 4 months
  30. +1
    21 February 2024 20: 34
    The Russian Armed Forces have already taken control of the ruins of the city, in which no entire buildings remain.


    This is the whole problem, that it is the Russian part of Ukraine - Novorossiya - that is turning into ruins, while the fascist-Bandera Western region is thriving and has practically not been subjected to attacks by the Russian Armed Forces.

    We are once again fighting according to alien rules that are not beneficial to Russia, and there are not even any attempts to change the strategy and tactics of combat operations so that instead of frontal assaults we act with deep flanking, encircle large populated areas and create “cauldrons.”
    This is how the Germans operated successfully in 41 and 42, reaching Moscow and Stalingrad within a few months.
    This is how the Red Army acted in 44-45 and very successfully crushed the Nazis in numerous cauldrons.
    What prevents Shoigu’s department from cutting off the entire Left Bank with strikes from the South and North along the Dnieper, destroying bridges and crossings and thereby capturing all the most combat-ready units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in a “dead ring”.
    Without shells, fuel, reserves, deprived of maneuver, the Ukrainian Armed Forces will either surrender or be destroyed.
    1. 0
      21 February 2024 21: 32
      What hinders this is the lack of at least another 500 thousand people fully equipped with everything needed for this, from thousands of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles to drones and supplies of shells.
      1. +1
        21 February 2024 21: 59
        lack of at least 500 thousand more people for this

        30 avdeevka or 25 bakhmut. Many are confident that the recruitment of absentees will begin quite soon. So let’s shake out the backpacks we collected a year and a half ago and tighten up our fitness
        1. +1
          23 February 2024 17: 37
          30 avdeevka or 25 bakhmut. Many are confident that the recruitment of absentees will begin quite soon. So let’s shake out the backpacks we collected a year and a half ago and tighten up our fitness

          Why is this fizukha needed? The mobilized will be lined up for inspection in great order, and something will fly in again. Or do you really think that our generals are capable of learning something? How many formation flights have there already been? And yet the fighters continue to be lined up for slaughter, and no one was not only put up against the wall for such sabotage and sabotage, but not even kicked out of the Armed Forces in disgrace! This means that everyone is happy with everything. So at least 300, at least 500 thousand are mobilized - this is not for 30 Bakhmuts or Avdeevkas, but for a hundred drill reviews and a couple of hundred Khimars.
      2. +1
        22 February 2024 11: 13
        What hinders this is the lack of at least another 500 thousand people fully equipped with everything necessary


        Why did you get the number 500 thousand and not 300 or 800???
        According to my estimates, 150 thousand is enough, three shock armies of 50 thousand people each.
        Along the left bank of the Dnieper there is mostly flat steppe, where there are no natural shelters and ready-made fortified areas; large cities such as Zaporozhye and Dnepropetrovsk need to be bypassed, taking them into an encirclement ring, but this requires not attack aircraft, but artillery, infantry and sapper brigades...
        Two shock tank armies of 50 thousand people each will pass from the North and South along the Dnieper like a knife through melted butter and meet in the Kremenchug area.
        To divide the currently unified grouping of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on the Left Bank, another strike from the third army from Belgorod is needed, bypassing Kharkov to Poltava and Kremenchug.
        As a result, we will get two isolated boilers, Northern and Southern, which within a month will either surrender or be destroyed....
        1. -1
          22 February 2024 11: 44
          150 thousand is not enough to encircle large cities and attack at the same time. =
          1. +1
            22 February 2024 17: 17
            150 thousand are just advancing, cities are blocked by 2nd echelon units, this is the military alphabet.
            An excellent topic for mobilized, all kinds of Akhmatova and the Russian Guard reinforced with artillery, MLRS and engineering units.
            The main task is to cut off all communication routes from cities, install roadblocks on them, the approaches to which should be covered with minefields and engineering structures.
  31. +2
    21 February 2024 22: 50
    [/quote]Initially, the command tried to attack Avdeevka from the flanks (for example, attacks on Petrovskoye/Stepovoe and Severnoye), but these attempts did not lead to anything. The reason for the failure is the inability to protect troops from precision artillery and the massive use of drones in open areas. Therefore, attempts to advance in the fields on both sides ended in defeat over and over again. But in the development zone, despite all the difficulties, the promotion was more successful.[quote]

    Can anyone explain to me what is written here?
    From one settlement to another, for example, 3 km. Isn't this 3 km? - all buildings? Or is it an open field? And this is an open field, if you go straight to a populated area, then you can get through, but if you go around from the flanks, then there’s no way, they say, high-precision artillery and drones won’t give you any.
    Perhaps I don't understand something?
  32. +1
    22 February 2024 01: 28
    since both of these settlements were stormed head-on, and battles were fought in urban areas for every street.

    The author is categorically wrong! Unlike Artemovsk, Avdeevka fell when the reality of the environment became real.
    Some of the roads leading to Avdos were shot through, and some, such as the railway in the North, were completely controlled.
    But the main thing is that Mordvichev cut off the road from Lastochkino right inside Avdeevka itself and forced the enemy to flee, as they wrote about! He took over a gas station at the entrance to the city from the south and cut off the supply.
    As a result, Avdeevka was partially surrounded and partially shot through from the point of view of logistics supplies. The enemy fled en masse even before they managed to take Koksokhim and other important areas. At the same time, in Artemovsk the enemy fought for every house with a reliable rear!
    In Artemovsk, the road to Chasov Yar Wagner could not be closed with anything!
    On the other hand, the author is partially right in asserting the difficulties of overcoming open spaces, but how did we approach Avdeevka and take the heights? Mordvichev did not have underground passages to waste heaps.
    The question is that the enemy had fewer shells and therefore could no longer respond so fiercely to our attack aircraft.
    But we had plenty of shells, which cannot be said about the Wagners.
    In addition, this time there were Cubs who destroyed everything in their path!
    In other words, we increased, but the enemy decreased after his vague summer offensive! This is the reason for our success, which is not accidental and is not based on the courage and professionalism of elite assaults like near Artemovsk, but on a combination of objective factors, therefore, unlike Artemovsk, we continue to advance and do not go on vacation to Krasnodarchik!
    We have taken Lastochkino and are threatening Orlovka! We have liberated Krynki and are threatening Rabotino! We have taken Pobeda and Novomikhailovka and are threatening Ugledar!
    And these are harbingers of the collapse of the front, which fundamentally distinguishes Artemovsk from Avdeevka!
    The author of the article made a weak analysis and did not understand the essence of today's events!
    1. 0
      22 February 2024 11: 47
      No one took Lastochkino even close, Krynki was also not taken, by the way, half the village was behind the enemy, no one took Novomikhailovka at all.
      1. 0
        23 February 2024 03: 37
        “On the shoulders of the retreating enemy”: the liberation of the village of Lastochkino by Russian troops is reported
        https://topwar.ru/236562-na-plechah-
        The bridgehead in Krynki was liquidated

        At a meeting with Sergei Shoigu, Vladimir Putin said that the village of Krynki on the left bank of the Dnieper is under the complete control of Russian troops.
        https://iz.ru/1653367/roman-kretcul-iuliia-leonova-alena-nefedova
        There is a battle going on for Novomikhailovka, but it is about to fall!
    2. 0
      22 February 2024 19: 06
      We liberated Krynki

      So, have Krynki and the surrounding area been cleared or not?
      1. 0
        23 February 2024 03: 45
        On Krynki they officially reported to President Shoigu and Teplinsky reported!
        1. 0
          23 February 2024 17: 26
          Is this already the final liquidation of the bridgehead?
  33. -3
    22 February 2024 12: 33
    The main thing is the morale of the enemy.
    The front line collapsed mainly because the soldiers refused to obey orders and abandoned their positions. Just like in 1918.
    Air bombs play an important role, making Ukrainians afraid to remain in their positions.
    1. +1
      22 February 2024 16: 47
      But this is not 1918. The pills will boost morale. And propaganda for thirty years has turned off our brains.
      Ukraine, like the little lady from Gogol’s Viy, “died”... But it flies and kills not with its own strength.

      On tablets, even one person can shoot, although he already has his own guts under his feet. And the whole country will hold out for a long time... They will be given food, ammunition and pills.
  34. 0
    22 February 2024 16: 15
    The question is why it is impossible to suppress enemy artillery during space reconnaissance
    1. +2
      22 February 2024 19: 04
      You attribute too much to the capabilities of satellite reconnaissance. And if it’s cloudy, and if there’s fog, snow, night. But the side-scan radar is still not so accurate in resolution. UAVs and more than one are a worthy chance for artillery reconnaissance. But Russia seems to have problems here with the quantity and management of artillery and its range.
    2. +1
      23 February 2024 00: 19
      Can you name the following figures(?): the number of our military and dual-use satellites in orbit (and the number of those in the United States, not to mention the entire NATO), the number of long-range self-propelled guns produced over the past 24 years and 2 months of Putinism, the number of long-range MLRS (and shells for them) such as Smerch, Uragan, Tornado, involved in air defense, the number of fired shells of the Krasnopol type, the number of BMPT Terminator, the number of ZSU and short- and medium-range air defense systems, the number of fired AU-220M Baikal and Derivation-PVO modules, ratio the number of operational UAVs purchased by the Ministry of Defense, in relation to the number of drones purchased by volunteers using donations from the civilian population, as well as the number of purchased reconnaissance and reconnaissance-attack UAVs of medium and heavy class and anti-drone guns, etc.
      Only knowing these numbers can you try to answer the question posed.
  35. -1
    27 February 2024 22: 59
    If according to Clausewitz, then everything is fine with us - we knock out the enemy with losses, his rear is eliminated, and his reserves are hit. Our reserves are preserved. Losses? There is no such thing as without losses. But having the opportunity to bomb on a “large scale” and with almost impunity. I can say with confidence that our losses are much less than those of the enemy. An assault on an enemy who has gone crazy from an air raid and massive artillery shelling is not at all an assault on an enemy who is ready to repel an attack, a battle-ready and motivated enemy "waiting for you." A constant instantaneous infrasonic blow to the brain, even in the most persistent and brave, can cause an attack of panic and horror right up to to the point of not arbitrary modification. Back in 41, the German Wehrmacht could not take the Brest Fortress for a very long time, until they bombarded them with extremely heavy bombs, after which the Hans began not so much an assault, but clearing out the destroyed territory. Plus the good training of the attack aircraft itself. Research Institute of Combat Operations - GROUP WAGNER perfectly showed what a modern assault soldier should be like: throwing a man who knows how to shoot and goose-step into an assault is giving him a one-way ticket.