Expedition to the ancestors. Downstream and upstream

125
Expedition to the ancestors. Downstream and upstream
Still from the movie “Pharaoh” (1963). For the filming of just one small episode, a real “Egyptian ship” was built. It is clear that it is a prop, but very reliable in appearance. The filmmakers did their best, needless to say


“And Joachim gave silver and gold to Pharaoh; he made an assessment of the land to give silver at the command of Pharaoh; From each of the people of the earth, according to his assessment, he exacted silver and gold in order to give to Pharaoh Necho.”
23 Kings 35:XNUMX

Migrants and migrations. So, we return again to the topic of ancient migrations and, accordingly, migrants who in ancient times moved here and there, which contributed to the spread of the achievements of civilization, language and culture as a whole.



In the last previous material of this series, we focused on the predynastic period stories Ancient Egypt (end of the 3100th millennium - ca. 3400 BC), which became the time of the final decomposition of tribal relations on its territory (until the middle of the XNUMXth millennium). At the same time, the formation of a socially differentiated society took place, and the first ancient Egyptian states arose (second half of the XNUMXth millennium). At the same time, writing also appeared, and the earliest written monuments that have reached us date back to approximately XNUMX BC. e.

In turn, the Predynastic period is divided into two large subperiods - Amratian (Negada I culture) and Gerzean (Negada II, c. 3100 BC). This period ended with the beginning of the reign of the so-called zero dynasty (Negada III) - that is, the time when Upper and Lower Egypt came close to uniting into one state, which is believed to have happened under Pharaoh Narmer.


The same film shows how Prince Ramses hunts in the reeds from a papyrus boat. Well, maybe not papyrus, but outwardly it is indistinguishable from the boats in ancient Egyptian images

Let us remember that by the middle of the 5th millennium, the Tasian and Badarian cultures of the Chalcolithic era, that is, the Copper-Stone Age, existed in Upper Egypt. The Thasians were farmers and pastoralists, but hunting and fishing supplied them with the main amount of food. However, it was not difficult for them to fish and hunt. There were a lot of fish in the Nile, and myriads of birds nested in the reed thickets along its banks. It is believed that they were the first to irrigate the lands and dig the first canals to drain water from the Nile. The Badaris raised not only small cattle, but also cattle, and stored their crops in specially built granaries. And it was they who were the first in Egypt to domesticate the cat (or the cat itself came to them!) in order to protect their grain reserves from rodents. Another important achievement of the Badarians was the ability to smelt copper, which was mined on the Sinai Peninsula.


There was no “forest” as such in Egypt. That’s why there weren’t such dugout boats. Exposition of the zoo in Prague. Author's photo

In Lower Egypt, around the same time, there existed the Fayum Neolithic culture, also farmers and pastoralists, distinguished by the production of rough molded pottery.


Ancient Egyptian Nile ship. National Museum of Denmark, Copenhagen

And here it should be noted that a number of completely unique circumstances contributed to the interpenetration and fusion of all these cultures. Thus, the beginning of the predynastic period coincided in time with the Neolithic subpluvial - that is, the era when the entire Sahara was covered with greenery. But very soon the climate became arid, and deserts spread over Egypt from all sides.

In general, the Egyptians are very lucky with the climate. From the Mediterranean Sea, a light breeze usually blew along the Nile bed. It reduced the heat and... allowed ships to sail up the Nile without resorting to the services of rowers!


Model of a ship from the tomb of Meketre. The green hull of this boat, its vertical bow, curved stern and double steering oars imitate the design of ships made from papyrus stems. Even the straps of the leather covers that covered the bow and stern of such boats are visualized. Boats of this type appear in depictions of the "pilgrimage to Abydos", which was part of Egyptian funerary ritual beginning in the Middle Kingdom. The ritual nature of the voyage is demonstrated by the fact that under the canopy sits not a living Meketre, but a statue of him, accompanied by a companion (possibly his son), and there is also a large vessel for libations. But the main idea of ​​sailing to the cult center of the god Osiris at Abydos, where the death and resurrection of the god was celebrated, was achieved by using two boats: one that sailed north from Thebes to Abydos against the wind, and one that set off on the return journey under sail. Date: approx. 1981-1975 BC e. Upper Egypt, Thebes, Southern Asasif, Meketre's tomb. Excavations in 1920. Materials: wood, paint, plaster, linen twine, linen fabric. Dimensions: length 132,5 cm, with steering oar 138,5 cm; height 53 cm; width 38 cm. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


The second boat... It has rowers working on it, which means it is sailing north to Abydos. There were also two hieroglyphs in Egyptian writing: a boat with a sail - “upstream” and without a sail - downstream!

In the middle of the 4th millennium, the Amrat culture was replaced by the Gerzean culture. The role of irrigation has increased, but yields have also increased. Crafts began to be separated from agriculture, and the differentiation of society accelerated sharply. Copper axes, daggers, knives, arrowheads, vessels and even toilet spoons are found in the burials. Trade is developing. For example, even lapis lazuli from Afghanistan is imported from Asian countries to Egypt. The population of the Delta conducts active trade with Mesopotamia, as evidenced by the characteristic cylinder seals found here.


Look how lifelike the faces of the rowing figures are...

Wealth inequality is now glaringly obvious. And the rich burials of the leaders speak about him. The institution of slavery emerges. And this is not surprising. The benefits of irrigation became obvious to everyone. The large scale of irrigation work required workers and the creation of a state with appropriate control and management functions. At first these were nomes - small associations of just a few settlements around a larger city, where the temple of the main deity and the residence of the local ruler were located.

By the way, there were many nomes in Egypt. How many in the era of the formation of the state is unknown. But during the era of the New Kingdom there were 20 of them in Lower Egypt, and 22 in Upper Egypt. Moreover, in Upper Egypt a state was formed earlier than in Lower Egypt. The capital of the state in Upper Egypt was in the city of Nekhen. The capital of Nizhny is Buto.


The famous "Narmer palette". It is considered a gift from the king of the First or Zero Dynasty to the Hierakonpolis Temple, which perpetuated his victory over the rebellious Libyan nomes in the Western Nile Delta. Historians have suggested that it depicts the victory of Narmer's army over the city of Wash. Here Narmer is depicted wearing two crowns: the white (hedjet) crown of Upper Egypt and the red (deshret) crown of Lower Egypt. Egyptian Museum in Cairo

And it was impossible without a state in Egypt, since complex irrigation and maintaining the canal system in order required centralized management and an entire army of officials, which happened during the period of dominance of the Negad III culture in Egypt. As happened most often in ancient times, the question of who won whom was decided by a war in which the more developed South defeated the swampier one (at that time, as many as eight branches flowed into the Mediterranean through the Nile Delta, now there are only two!) and therefore less rich in resources North. The winner of this war was Pharaoh Menes (Mina or Min), who founded the First Royal Dynasty, although it is known that before it there was also the Zero Dynasty, whose pharaohs were at enmity with each other. In any case, we know the names of some of them. And we know that they were not relatives.

However, there is also an opinion that it was not Menes, but Narmer who carried out the unification of Egypt, as indicated by the “Narmer palette” apparently found in 1898, on which he is depicted in one case wearing the crown of Upper Egypt, and in another – Lower Egypt!


Narmer in a high white crown - the hedjet - the crown of Upper Egypt, hits his opponent on the head with a mace, judging by the wig - also an Egyptian

In any case, around 3100 the Predynastic Period came to an end, as did the Zero Dynasty, and the so-called Old Kingdom began in Egypt.


Like us today, the Egyptians loved picnics, especially the nobility. The menu for the Meketra boat trip included fried poultry, beef jerky, bread, beer and some kind of soup. That is, before us is nothing more than... a floating kitchen, in which food is being prepared for the Egyptians who are camping somewhere on a picnic during the voyage. Meat and bread were transported on another model, which is located in the Cairo Museum. Beer and soup are also brewed here. The blackened trough may have contained burning charcoal for roasting poultry. A man watches the stove on which soup is boiling. A woman grinds grain. Brewers inside the cabin form loaves of bread and then press them through sieves into large vats. One brewer stands in a vat and tramples dates, which provide sugar for the fermentation of beer. The oars of this boat are attached to the sides. To avoid damage to the oars during transport and storage of the boats in the model chamber, all the oars of the boats in the tomb of Meketre were secured in a similar way. OK. 1981-1975 BC e. Tomb of Meketre. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

And it should be noted that, to a large extent, the prosperity of the ancient Egyptian state, including the times of Roman rule, was connected precisely with the Nile. We have already discussed its role in providing the Egyptians with food in one of the articles in this series. But now it is important to point out another circumstance - the Nile was also an excellent transport artery, connecting the north with the south year-round. And here, along the banks of the Nile, the building material from which the main part of the Egyptian river ships was built - papyrus - grew.


Very lively poses, although the figures themselves are a little rough...

From drawings on the walls of tombs we know that already in ancient times the Egyptians used boats assembled from bundles of papyrus. It is clear that these vessels were small and more reminiscent of spindle-shaped rafts. However, even on such boats it was possible to cross the Nile, hunt in the reed beds and fish. The Egyptians could not build large ships from scrap materials, since there was no suitable wood for this in Egypt.


Flint knife from Gebel el-Arak with a carved handle. Cultural monument of Negada II or Negada III. The knife handle is made of ivory. Length 9,5 cm, width at the base - 4,2 cm. This is the most valuable part of the knife, as it has images engraved on both sides. On one side there is a battle scene - naked warriors at the top, and at the bottom there is a scene with boats, which can be interpreted as a battle on the water (on a river or even the sea). On the other side of the image is clearly symbolic - a man along with two lions, dogs and other animals. The warriors are armed with flint knives, clubs, and pear-shaped maces. It is believed that they came to Egypt from Mesopotamia and replaced the traditional Egyptian disk-shaped mace. There is speculation that the relief depicts a battle between warriors from the cities of Abydos and Hierakonpolis, the two main rival Egyptian cities of the period. Abydos won, so that in fact most of Egypt was united under the rule of rulers from Abydos precisely during the period of Negad III. Louvre

But with the unification of the country, Egypt began to receive large-sized boards from Lebanon, where the famous Lebanese cedars grew. Smaller boats began to be built from local palm wood. So the total “tonnage” of the ancient Egyptian river fleet very quickly became exceptionally large. During the reign of the pharaohs - the builders of the pyramids, ships began to be used to transport stone blocks, and, accordingly, their size and carrying capacity increased even more.

To be continued ...
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  1. +6
    February 4 2024
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky

    Egypt began to receive large-sized boards from Lebanon, where the famous Lebanese cedars grew. Smaller boats began to be built from local palm wood

    I read a long time ago that the Egyptians built their ships from acacia, which grows everywhere in those parts, and small boats from reeds.
    1. +9
      February 4 2024
      Let me say right away that palm trees have no wood. Basically. She is a monocot. There is no cambium. Many people even consider it grass.

      And now - from what type of palm trees, and what can be built - this is very, very interesting.
      1. +5
        February 4 2024
        Quote from Korsar4
        Let me say right away that palm trees have no wood. Basically. She is a monocot. There is no cambium. Many people even consider it grass.
        And now - from what type of palm trees, and what can be built - this is very, very interesting.

        What about date? Date palm trunks are used as a building material; beams, pillars, doors in huts are made from them...
        1. +8
          February 4 2024
          And the date tree doesn’t have a trunk either. Stem. There are, of course, nuances. Secondary thickening. And in the center there is a hole.

          With the door - everything is probably clear.
          Can beams and posts be hollow?

          They probably can.

          It is clear that when there is no material, everything can be used, even date pits.
          1. +2
            February 4 2024
            Quote from Korsar4
            Can beams and posts be hollow?

            And from the beam you can cut boards... So some parts from the wood of the same date palm could well have been used. Otherwise, it is difficult to explain the huge number of ships sailing along the Nile.
            1. +4
              February 4 2024
              Please look at the picture below.

              I can’t imagine how to cut boards.
              1. +3
                February 4 2024
                Quote from Korsar4
                I can’t imagine how to cut boards.

                How can you make a door?
                1. +5
                  February 4 2024
                  So I would like to look at this door.

                  Leaves mats - I'll believe it.

                  Perhaps the stem of an old palm tree could be used.

                  Has anyone seen doors made of date palms?
                  1. +4
                    February 4 2024
                    Quote from Korsar4
                    So I would like to look at this door.
                    Leaves mats - I'll believe it.
                    Perhaps the stem of an old palm tree could be used.
                    Has anyone seen doors made of date palms?

                    I would like it too. Because everything I wrote, I just read. I., accordingly, conveyed what was written in his own words.
              2. +11
                February 4 2024
                Quote from Korsar4
                Please look at the picture below.

                I can’t imagine how to cut boards.

                Hello Sergey, good morning to honest company.
                If according to the construction technology of ancient Egyptian river ships, then not boards were used, but half-logs (a third/quarter of a log). The fastening was knitted (essentially skin from planks was stretched over the frame) made of acacia. Remnants of the traditionalism of building boats from reeds. However, such ships have survived to this day only in the form of drawings.
                More exclusive knitted pharaonic ships made from acacia planks have been found in burials. One has even been partially restored. It is curious that the keel log and its mast and yard were made of imported cedar.
                The widespread use of boards in ship construction dates back to the era of the Sea Peoples and Phoenician expansion. The ships of Crete also had archaic knitted structures made of half-logs rather than planks.
                1. +5
                  February 4 2024
                  Good morning Vladislav!

                  This is the option I can imagine.

                  And what kind of fruit is the half-log from?

                  The keel and mast are also understandable. You can't do without good wood.

                  In general, without fish, you’ll learn to cook porridge from an axe.
                2. +10
                  February 4 2024
                  If according to the technology of construction of ancient Egyptian river ships, then not boards were used, but half-logs

                  Here you are a little mistaken. Boards were also used. The photographs show one of two boats found in a hiding place near the Cheops pyramid. Built around 2250 BC.
                  The construction took 38 tons of cedar planks.
                  The first photo shows the original appearance. The third is an already restored boat.
                  1. +4
                    February 4 2024
                    Here you are a little mistaken. Boards were also used. The photographs show one of two boats found in a hiding place near the Cheops pyramid. Built around 2250 BC.
                    The construction took 38 tons of cedar planks.

                    Victor, good evening!
                    No, I’m not mistaken, Vyacheslav stopped in his narrative at 3100 BC. - There are still almost nine centuries before the era of Cheops. With expansion, Egypt gained access to valuable timber, which allowed it to abandon many archaic techniques. In particular, from the longitudinal coupler and double-legged masts. The next revolution was brought about by the Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians.
              3. +9
                February 4 2024
                In general, all decent people did not saw boards for ships, but split them along the trunk, then trimmed them.. This way, a much more durable board is obtained..
                1. +8
                  February 4 2024
                  Yes. But for this there must be a trunk. Not a stem with a hole.
                2. +4
                  February 4 2024
                  Quote: paul3390
                  All decent people did not saw boards for ships, but split them along the trunk, then trimmed them

                  Wood can be either sawed or split. In barrels used for aging whiskey, brandy and wine, both crushed and sawn technology is present...
                  1. +5
                    February 4 2024
                    Oak stave. It's quite possible to turn around.

                    What can you do with a palm stem?

                    Furniture made from rattan. That's also understandable.

                    I want details. How did the Egyptians get along?
                    1. +5
                      February 4 2024
                      Quote from Korsar4
                      Oak stave. It’s quite possible to turn around

                      Barrel staves are made not only from oak. For example, my grandmother had cedar barrels - cabbage and mushrooms were salted in them. The smell of taiga is amazing!

                      Quote from Korsar4
                      I want details. How did the Egyptians get by?

                      So that's the whole point! I want it too! How do Egyptologists explain this?
                      1. +6
                        February 4 2024
                        Конечно.

                        Cedar oil was an export product even under Ivan the Terrible.

                        And cunning foreign merchants demanded that the barrels be made of cedar wood.
                    2. +10
                      February 4 2024
                      How did the Egyptians get along?

                      Like all. They dragged cedar from Canaan.. What is curious is that without exception, all the inscriptions of the Mesopotamian kings, starting with Sharrumken and ending with Ashurbanipal, telling about the campaigns and conquests of those regions, always end with the phrase that they cut down trees there.. Apparently - even the robbery of the rich cities there and taking control of trade routes was less significant than extracting the right timber..

                      Although I don’t really imagine how they dragged trunks from Canaan to, say, Akkad..
                      1. +3
                        February 4 2024
                        Quote: paul3390
                        those parts always end with the phrase that he cut down trees there

                        In those parts there was never any wood! In construction technologies, unlike China and Europe, wooden floors were very rare.
                      2. +8
                        February 4 2024
                        Where - in Lebanon there was no wood??? belay Truth?? what
                      3. +3
                        February 4 2024
                        Quote: paul3390
                        Where - in Lebanon there was no wood???

                        Measure the distance from Mesopotamia to Lebanon...
                      4. +9
                        February 4 2024
                        And - what? Do you want to say that all the kings for 2000 years simply lied in their inscriptions? what
                      5. 0
                        February 4 2024
                        Quote: paul3390
                        Do you want to say that all the kings for 2000 years simply lied in their inscriptions?

                        In order not to be unfounded, I will give an example of text from the Behestun inscription - I am Darius, the great king, the king of kings... Well, and so on... Think for yourself - is he lying or not? wink
                      6. +8
                        February 4 2024
                        And where is he wrong here? The king really was not one of the last. He had an official title - king of kings. By the way, it’s very ancient, from the time of Sharrumken. Aaaaaaa - I realized where he lied! That his name is Darius - correct?

                        By the way, in principle it was impossible for a noble Persian-Zoroastrian to lie. It's not allowed, you see. This is me, just in case...
                      7. +7
                        February 4 2024
                        I remembered the joke: “I lied to you too. I am not from Moscow. I'm from the Moscow region."
                      8. +1
                        February 4 2024
                        Quote: paul3390
                        And where is he wrong here?

                        Yes, he's right! Only I can continue to say something about the truthfulness of rulers. The Merovingians were descended from a sea monster, and the Roman emperors were descended from Jupiter, and Alexander, who was of Macedon, had Zeus, Hercules and Achilles among his distant relatives. Of the modern ones, Gorbachev was a combine operator, and Khrushchev was a miner... wink
                      9. +5
                        February 4 2024
                        Not true. Temple of Solomon, for which King Hiram supplied him with cedars.

                        Subsequently, there was even criticism for the deforestation of the mountains.
                      10. 0
                        February 10 2024
                        . how they dragged trunks from Canaan to, say, Akkad.. The donkeys were beating. And they knew the wheel.
                    3. +10
                      February 4 2024
                      I want details. How did the Egyptians get along?

                      How and from what did the Egyptians build ships?
                      https://www.brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/courses/maritimearchaeology11/files/18445329.pdf
                      About ship wood in Ancient Egypt
                      https://www.academia.edu/5172056/Ship_Timber_and_the_Reuse_of_Wood_in_Ancient_Egypt
                      About what types of trees were available in Ancient Egypt
                      https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/wood/types.html
                      1. +4
                        February 4 2024
                        Thank you!

                        I'll stop by soon.
                  2. +3
                    February 4 2024
                    So - the requirements for a barrel board are not the same as for a ship's board..
                    1. +3
                      February 4 2024
                      Quote: paul3390
                      requirements as for a ship

                      Word ship not applicable in this case! Don't forget that we are talking about sailing just on the Nile...
                      1. +4
                        February 4 2024
                        Well, yes - but what did they sail to Canaan and Punt? Not on ships made of palm planks tied with ropes?
                      2. +3
                        February 4 2024
                        Quote: paul3390
                        Not on ships made of palm planks tied with ropes?

                        Why not? There is nothing serious about coastal sailing. Although there was also Lebanese cedar and some trees from the neighboring Balkans...
                      3. +6
                        February 4 2024
                        Quote: paul3390
                        What did they sail to Canaan and Punt?

                        There will be a separate article about this.
                      4. ANB
                        +3
                        February 5 2024
                        . Well, yes - but what did they sail to Canaan and Punt?

                        Thor Heyerdahl, Yuri Senkevich, papyrus boat of Ra.
                3. +2
                  February 4 2024
                  Quote: paul3390
                  In general, all decent people did not saw boards for ships, but split them along the trunk, then trimmed them.. This way, a much more durable board is obtained..

                  It’s cool, but the Egyptians haven’t had it yet.
                  1. +2
                    February 4 2024
                    And then what did they allegedly use to saw granite blocks for the pyramids on an industrial scale? crying
                    1. +1
                      February 5 2024
                      Quote: paul3390
                      And then what did they allegedly use to saw granite blocks for the pyramids on an industrial scale? crying

                      From the wiki, I was too lazy to look for something else.
                      The oldest pyramid is considered to be the Pyramid of Djoser, built by the architect Imhotep in the period from 2667 to 2648. BC uh[

                      We, following the Author, stopped at the last century of the fourth millennium BC.
                      hi
                    2. 0
                      February 10 2024
                      Copper sheet, water and quartz sand. In general, their limestone was not sawed, but chopped and hewn.
              4. BAI
                +4
                February 4 2024
                1. Many sources call a palm tree a tree. Like the horse chestnut that grows in Moscow is not a chestnut.
                2.
                The hard and durable wood of some woods (borassus, caryota, sabal) is used in construction, carpentry and turning, and for making music. instruments (carnauba). Thin palmyra and sugar palm trunks are used as water pipes, and flexible rattan trunks are used in furniture production; leaves - as roofing material, for making wickerwork, paper.

                TSB - both palm wood and used in construction
                1. +3
                  February 4 2024
                  They call it. I even think so myself, despite many protests.

                  Horse chestnut is horse chestnut.

                  Edible chestnut grows in Europe and the Caucasus. They are even different families.

                  But regarding the wood, I disagree. The palm tree doesn't have it.

                  Trees have a cambium. Xylem (wood) is deposited inside. Phloem outside.

                  The palm tree does not deposit any wood inside.

                  Something like that.

                  Although, probably, whatever you call it utilitarian, it will be so.
            2. +5
              February 4 2024
              So some parts from the wood of the same date palm could well have been used. Otherwise, it is difficult to explain the huge number of ships sailing along the Nile.

              Has the author read the book by Björn Landström - Ships of the Pharaohs (translated from English) published in 1970? There is not a word about palm trees - about papyrus, acacia, sycamore and Lebanese cedar.
              A very competent book, I advise everyone to read it before arguing.
            3. +4
              February 4 2024
              Quote: kalibr
              And from the beam you can cut boards... So some parts from the wood of the same date palm could well have been used. Otherwise, it is difficult to explain the huge number of ships sailing along the Nile.


              It is unlikely that you can make something from any palm tree. Freshly cut gives the impression of wood, but when it dries, it crumbles into dust. Not even very good as firewood.
            4. 0
              February 4 2024
              Quote: kalibr
              Otherwise, it is difficult to explain the huge number of ships sailing along the Nile.
              So maybe it would be much easier to reconsider the fantasies about “that huge number of ships”?
          2. +3
            February 4 2024
            Quote from Korsar4
            And the date tree doesn’t have a trunk either. Stem. There are, of course, nuances. Secondary thickening.

            You are talking exclusively about a freshly cut palm tree. And if it is subjected to treatment - heat, water or something else? Surely the properties of the wood will change? I’m not good at wood materials, but I know that if oak is subjected to different treatments, its properties will change. I think this applies to all plants...
            1. +6
              February 4 2024
              The properties will change. But for this there must be wood. But the palm tree doesn’t have it.

              Can it be processed somehow? I admit it.
              So it’s interesting how.

              What kind of assortment do we want to get at the output?
              1. +1
                February 4 2024
                Quote from Korsar4
                The properties will change. But for this there must be wood. And the palm tree doesn’t have it

                There are green reeds, and there are dried ones. You can build some kind of dwelling from the dried one, but not from the green one. The same applies to bamboo, whose properties begin to change with certain processing. The palm tree, for sure, can also be adapted somehow. But how? I’ll say one thing for sure - the ancient Egyptians did not export wood from Siberia, but somehow got out of the available raw materials...

                Quote from Korsar4
                Can it be processed somehow? I admit it.
                So it’s interesting how

                I'm interested in this too - how? Wood is not my specialty, I'm more into hardware. But they built their ships from something...
                1. +5
                  February 4 2024
                  Heyerdahl spoke wonderfully about sailing on the reed Ra.

                  Acacia has already been mentioned.
                  About the import of Lebanese cedar too.

                  The question is chronology.

                  What Vladislav said is quite convincing.

                  For me the question is breeds for “half logs”.
                  1. +5
                    February 4 2024
                    Quote from Korsar4
                    Heyerdahl spoke wonderfully about sailing on the "Ra" made of reeds

                    I didn’t even notice the elephant! Heyerdahl and his boat are a great example... wink
                2. +3
                  February 4 2024
                  It’s okay to be modest, just amateur dendrologists have gathered! Chestnut, you see, it’s not the same in Moscow! It’s a horse chestnut and it blooms wonderfully! In Paris, it’s ordinary, edible, let them fry and choke along with frogs. Lebanese cedar, by the way, feels better in Crimea than in its historical homeland, and a thatched roof, in a purely utilitarian sense, is a very expensive pleasure, not accessible to everyone (a reference to the head is required). Well, what else can we reflect on this issue? We respect larch very much, gray, seasoned, it can be used instead of cognac, French! love
                  1. +1
                    February 4 2024
                    Gray larch instead of cognac is wonderful.

                    What needs to be done to get a similar effect?
        2. +6
          February 4 2024
          Here is a cut of a palm stem (Strung together in a net)
      2. +2
        February 4 2024
        Quote from Korsar4
        Let me say right away that palm trees have no wood. Basically. She is a monocot. There is no cambium. Many people even consider it grass.

        And now - from what type of palm trees, and what can be built - this is very, very interesting.

        What about the Polynesians?
        1. +6
          February 4 2024
          Maori, as far as I know, used dugouts.

          There is such a tree - podocarp (or footcarp) Totara. So because of them, fights were organized, even to the point of murder.

          They could pass it on by inheritance.
          1. +4
            February 4 2024
            Polynesia is big. The boats are different. We used kauri pine, various types of acacia, breadfruit and... Palm trees
            1. +3
              February 4 2024
              Kauri is an interesting tree. A relative of Araucaria.

              One can only imagine what handsome people grew up there.

              In general, probably everything can be used.

              A question of resources, skills and technology.
      3. +5
        February 4 2024
        Let me say right away that palm trees have no wood. Basically. She is a monocot. There is no cambium. Many people even consider it grass.

        And now - from what type of palm trees, and what can be built - this is very, very interesting.

        Damn, really. I looked it up on the Internet. Live and learn!
        That’s why we don’t see handicrafts made from palm wood. wink
        Article plus. You can't drink away systemic education. laughing
        1. +4
          February 4 2024
          There is rattan furniture. Rattan is also a palm tree.

          In general, it’s good to ask yourself questions.
      4. +3
        February 4 2024
        And now - from what type of palm trees, and what can be built - this is very, very interesting.

        If you speak English, you can look at it in detail here.
        https://ecocation.org/palm-tree-wood/#:~:text=Date%20Palm%20(Phoenix%20dactylifera)%3A,%2C%20furniture%2C%20and%20even%20boats.
        Although the automatic translation gives a more or less intelligible text.
        1. +2
          February 4 2024
          Thank you!

          Came in. I'll take a look a little later.
        2. +6
          February 4 2024
          Quote: Dekabrist
          https://ecocation.org/palm-tree-wood/#:~:text=Date%20Palm%2

          Here's what it says: The wood around the outer perimeter of a palm tree is highly durable and resistant, making it an ideal material for building durable structures such as bridges, Boats, homes and commercial buildings.
          I emphasize that what is in the text was not my idea, it was all taken and collected at different times from different sources. I didn’t know anything about palm trees. I rewrote it as is. And here's the confirmation. Boats could be built.
          1. +4
            February 4 2024
            The wood around the outer perimeter of the palm tree is highly durable and resistant, making it an ideal material for constructing durable structures such as bridges, boats, homes and commercial buildings.

            The photo shows the production of timber from coconut palm wood for building a house.
            1. +4
              February 4 2024
              Wonderful photo.

              I'll even try to use it.
              1. +6
                February 4 2024
                I'll even try to use it.

                Will you build a house from palm trees?
                1. +4
                  February 4 2024
                  No. “A pig’s home should be a fortress” (c).
            2. +2
              February 5 2024
              Quote: Dekabrist
              The photo shows the production of timber from coconut palm wood for building a house.


              The inside of the palm crumbles when it dries, and the outer perimeter cracks after drying, forming large, long cracks. Grass is grass. The Egyptians could float wood suitable for construction along the Nile from its upper reaches. There are still significant forest reserves there. Even if it was not an easy task, it is possible, and Lebanese cedar is more exotic than a mass-produced building material.
          2. +1
            February 5 2024
            I rewrote it as is. And here's the confirmation. Boats could be built.

            It’s more likely not to build, but to sheathe it using lamination technology. The Indians sheathed boats with birch bark, the Eskimos with leather, but boats are not ships and it is impossible to build ships using this technology.
            1. +1
              February 5 2024
              Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
              It’s more likely not to build, but to sheathe it using lamination technology.

              This is probably a private thing. I will try to talk in detail about the construction technology of Egyptian ships in the following materials.
            2. 0
              February 5 2024
              Right. The Indians had a pirogue made from paper birch. They sewed them together with thin spruce or larch roots. And the base was made of red cedar (Thuja plicata).
  2. +3
    February 4 2024
    The knife is wonderful. And swimming must have been fun.
    There is also a large vessel for libations.
    1. +5
      February 4 2024
      Quote: Andrey Moskvin
      And swimming must have been fun

      There are a lot of crocodiles! And it must be fun... wink
      1. +11
        February 4 2024
        There are a lot of crocodiles! And it must be fun...
        It's fun if you catch and cook the crocodile yourself. Delicious. But if it’s the other way around, it’s not very good. But it will probably be tasty for the crocodile too.
        1. +6
          February 4 2024
          Quote: Aviator_
          But it will probably be tasty for the crocodile too

          I can imagine with what appetite they watched the Egyptians... wink
          1. +7
            February 4 2024
            I can imagine with what appetite they watched the Egyptians...
            Naturally, here you have to watch some goat at a watering hole for half a day, and the Egyptians themselves, one might say, are swimming for lunch.
      2. +8
        February 4 2024
        A well-known question of all Indians who learn about our winters is - if the Volga freezes almost to the bottom, then where do the crocodiles go before spring? what
        1. +8
          February 4 2024
          A well-known question of all Indians who learn about our winters is - if the Volga freezes almost to the bottom, then where do the crocodiles go before spring?
          And by winter they grow overgrown with wool and crawl into dens until spring. laughing
  3. +3
    February 4 2024
    Few people know, but the first books were made from decommissioned ships and boats Yes
    Jokes aside, it was interesting. somehow I even wanted to watch this film, "Pharaoh"
  4. +7
    February 4 2024
    Flint knife from Gebel el-Arak

    Among other things, it is also interesting because of the depiction of the battle itself. Please note - if you look closely, those fighting on it have TWO completely different types of ships. The bottom ones seem to be typical Egyptian reed boats, but the top ones are quite decent wooden ships, judging by the shape - perhaps even sea boats. Which were very unlikely to have appeared in Upper Egypt of the zero dynasty... And there was no suitable wood, and where would the skills for such construction come from? This is also the basis - Emery and his like-minded people put forward the theory that Egypt was first founded and then united by the so-called “people of Horus”, who came from outside, and not at all like the indigenous Egyptians. It is also stated that the serekh symbol itself, in which the name of the pharaoh was written, seems to be of Mesopotamian origin. All in all, an interesting theory...
    1. +2
      February 4 2024
      Quote: paul3390
      those fighting on it have TWO completely different types of ships

      If you look at a modern destroyer and aircraft carrier, you can draw exactly the same conclusion - this completely different ships...
      1. +4
        February 4 2024
        No. They have the same design principle. And in the image below are classic Egyptian ships knitted from bundles of reeds, and above are obviously wooden ones, of a completely different type. As if they weren’t even keeled anymore..
  5. +6
    February 4 2024
    The winner of this war was Pharaoh Menes

    In fact, debate continues to this day about who Men was. There are three theories - this is a separate pharaoh, who has a not very clear relationship with the First Dynasty. This is one of Narmer's names. This is one of the names of Hora-Aha.. But there is a very interesting seal impression with a list of the first ones. It starts with Narmer. But! Notice the braided line after each name. What’s interesting is that in later texts it is interpreted as mn. Isn't this Me? So that means “Men” is not a name, but a title? Lost in later times? Or - as an option, an analogue of the same Caesar, a personal name that later turned into a title? Which means, whatever one may say, Men was already a legend about a distant ancestor in the time of Narmer?

    Also, the image of a jackal in front of the names is extremely interesting. Moreover, the jackal is depicted next to the Horus falcon and the sign mn. But the jackal is a symbol of Set, the direct antagonist of Horus! Interesting print though...

    Photo from the book by T.A. Sherkova “The Birth of the Eye of Horus”, which I highly recommend to anyone interested in pre-dynastic Egypt..
    1. +3
      February 4 2024
      Quote: paul3390
      What’s interesting is that in later texts it is interpreted as mn. Isn't this Me?

      It is possible to decipher the ancient text and understand its meaning. But phonetics cannot be resurrected - we don’t know how this or that word was pronounced in different historical periods of time...
    2. +3
      February 4 2024
      Another interesting thing is that these are the last hieroglyphs on the right. Reed and vulture on top, unknown to me below. But. The pharaohs of the Old Kingdom had three names - the name of Horus, written in a serekh with a falcon on top. A name after heaven, a symbol of both Egypts, a vulture and a cobra, a name after a bear, a reed and a bee, also a symbol of Upper and Lower Egypt. And here - only the symbols of Upper Egypt, a reed and a vulture, stand nearby! Does this mean that the author of the seal did not recognize the rights to the entire kingdom as the first five pharaohs of the First Dynasty? And again - a hieroglyph mn, a possible title of Men, or denoting the descendants of Men, stands only before Wadja or alias Jet. He and the next one are written without him, and without the symbols of Horus and Set. For the former - I personally would read it this way, Men (king) Narmer, under the auspices of Horus and Set. What does this mean?
      1. -1
        February 4 2024
        below are unknown to me.

        I remember where I saw this!! This name is Merneit “To be loved (Mrj.t) Neith (Nj.t)”, it looks like the wife of Pharaoh Jet and regent for her son Den... Damn, and I thought I was getting really old...
  6. +1
    February 4 2024
    Many interesting places are located in Africa.
    It is a coincidence that a door was made from cedar in the city of Babylon (the gate of God) and a gate was also made in the city of Great Zimbabwe. And the brick masonry construction technology is similar to Mahenjadaro.
  7. +3
    February 4 2024
    Quote: Luminman
    I didn’t even notice the elephant! Heyerdahl and his boat are a great example.
    A great example of what? The crew on Ra-1 was forced to give the SOS signal on the 51st day of the voyage. The experiment was considered a failure. Next was "Ra-2".
    At the beginning of the voyage, "Ra-2" made the crew worry - the papyrus absorbed water with such intensity that the boat sank by about 10 cm per day and after four days it was half submerged in the ocean. To make it easier, the travelers threw overboard everything that could be discarded.
    “A bag of potatoes splashed into the water: the potatoes took a long time to cook. It was followed by two jugs of rice. Flour. Corn. Two bags of who knows what. A basket of shingles. Better to starve than drown. Most of the grain stored for the chickens went overboard. And also a large wooden beam and boards - material for repairs. More jugs. Madani's face was written with despair. Kay looked at the sail, baring his teeth. The sea accepted the bay of rope. Grinding stone. Hammer. Georges' iron spear to sew the boat. Books floated and magazines. Book covers. Every gram is important."
    Thor Heyerdahl, "Ra"

    But the crew was only 7 people. And, by the way, all 7 people worked.
    He understands that you can cross the ocean even in an acrylic bathtub. But what will this prove? All "Ra", both Ra-1 and Ra-2, were intended for a one-time experiment; their task was only to deliver the most lightweight crew of 7 people across the ocean. There is nothing superfluous on board, only the essentials. And even a lot of the most necessary things went overboard. And the Nile has fresh water. It holds worse and is absorbed faster. Why do merchants need boats on which they cannot transport goods in commercial quantities?
    And some weirdos also claim that the “ancient Egyptians” transported more than 100-ton blocks on their ships.
    1. +1
      February 4 2024
      Quote: Seal
      And some weirdos also claim that the “ancient Egyptians” transported more than 100-ton blocks on their ships.

      The Egyptians themselves wrote about this. There are texts... Only the ships for transporting stones were made of cedar planks. Two such boats have even survived to this day! True, they are iconic. But the stones will withstand it quite well,
  8. +1
    February 4 2024
    Quote: Dekabrist
    The photo shows the production of timber from coconut palm wood for building a house.
    Coconut palm (Cocos nucifera), plant of the palm family; the only species of the coconut genus. The coconut palm is apparently unknown in the wild; its supposed homeland is Sunda Islands and Polynesia.The coconut palm could have arrived in Egypt no earlier than Magellan's voyage.
    1. +2
      February 4 2024
      Is it written somewhere that the action takes place in Egypt?
      1. +4
        February 4 2024
        The photo shows a floor made of date palm wood. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find any photos of the construction process.
  9. +5
    February 4 2024
    Even toilet spoons are found in burials.

    Uh-uh...?
    Am I behind the times? )))
    1. +7
      February 4 2024
      Am I behind the times?

      Moreover, very strongly. Toilet spoons were used to prepare cosmetic compositions or apply cosmetics.
      1. +4
        February 4 2024
        It seems that I saw this spoon in the Egyptian department of the Museum of Fine Arts. Pushkin in the mid-70s, during his student days.
    2. +5
      February 4 2024
      I apologize for my tactlessness, but I’m very curious - tell me, what was the first use for toilet spoons that came to your mind? what wink laughing
      1. +4
        February 4 2024
        Yes, nothing!
        Where is the toilet and where are the spoons...
        Now I understand that masks, creams, etc. were prepared in the toilet. I would choose another place for this. I can't imagine what it was like in those days. But for some reason it seems that they are not particularly conducive to cosmetic procedures. Unless... how can I put it... providing the mystery of the procedure.
        1. +1
          February 4 2024
          Now I understand that masks, creams, etc. were prepared in the toilet.

          Not "in" but "on".
          Toilet (dressing table) - a table with a mirror or mirrors, at which one dresses and combs one's hair.
          Toilet - tidying up your appearance, putting on clothes (morning toilet).
      2. +5
        February 4 2024
        I apologize for my tactlessness, but I’m very curious - tell me, what was the first use for toilet spoons that came to your mind?
        Call me for introducing you into the dialogue, but, in my opinion, the Egyptians at that time did not collect tests for the SES.
    3. +4
      February 4 2024
      Quote: depressant
      Am I behind the times?

      I’ll write an article especially for you about them... and other Egyptian pleasures for ladies.
      1. +3
        February 4 2024
        I will write an article about them especially for you...

        Laughed for a long time wassat )))
        What occupies me least of all are issues of cosmetics. I straightened my mustache, shaved my beard, and okay! )))
        In fact, I am much more interested in the question of whether the Egyptian pyramids are monuments to the state. It’s not a shaky vertical in the form of the Eiffel or Ostankino towers, nevertheless thickened from below as if an exhausted pyramid, but a true pyramid - a powerful mass of stone, try to move it! What could be more sustainable? You yourself write about the hosts of officials, about the multi-story bureaucracy already in those distant times, and as if anticipating your lines about this, just the other day I returned to thoughts about this purpose of the Egyptian, and not only Egyptian, pyramids...
        But be sure to write about Egyptian cosmetics! You have no idea how successful the topic will be with men laughing )))
      2. +6
        February 4 2024
        and other Egyptian pleasures for ladies.

        Sounds intriguing.
  10. +1
    February 4 2024
    Quote: Dekabrist
    Is it written somewhere that the action takes place in Egypt?
    Actually, the thread is about Egypt. And if you know that the coconut tree has nothing to do with the topic under discussion, why did you bring it?
    1. +1
      February 4 2024
      Actually, the thread is about Egypt. And if you know that the coconut tree has nothing to do with the topic under discussion, why did you bring it?

      Your emergency response is so large that because of it, some details of what is happening are not visible. Above there was a discussion about the possibility of using palm wood. Any. In principle, not only in Egypt. This is exactly what my comment refers to.
  11. +3
    February 4 2024
    Quote: Dekabrist
    The photo shows a floor made of date palm wood.
    Short boards, sawn adjustable iron saw, right? hi
    Or maybe hewn with a bronze axe? laughing
  12. +5
    February 4 2024
    Quote: kalibr
    The Egyptians themselves wrote about this. There are texts...
    Oh really ? Papyri? Which "were miraculously preserved"? Would you like to look into reference books and find out how many years it takes for the best paper today to disintegrate? And by the way, look also where the paper will disintegrate faster, in a temperate climate or in a hot one hi And papyrus is even more thermodynamically unbalanced than paper. Chemical materials science allows us to state that in 800–1000 years, even the best paper, as a thermodynamically nonequilibrium material, must completely decay. Why is paper a thermodynamically nonequilibrium material? Yes, if only because the paper contains paste. But the same paste (adhesive composition) is used in the manufacture of papyrus. And considering that in ancient times only natural ingredients, usually containing protein, were used to create pastes, any papyrus is simply obliged to decay to the ground within 500-600 years. This is thermodynamics, one of the most fundamental natural sciences. As Boltzmann said, you can’t argue with her. Although professional historians are often trying to do this bully

    Quote: kalibr
    Only the vessels for transporting stones were made of cedar planks. Two such boats have even survived to this day! True, they are iconic. But the stones will withstand it quite well,
    laughing Well, yes, like special boots for the dead. They say that when, after the collapse of the USSR, our people began to travel abroad en masse, there were those who bought these boots, since they cost much less than ordinary shoes and ... walked in them like normal shoes. True, when worn, these boots fell apart already on the second day. And then if you're lucky. The situation is exactly the same with the “cult courts”. While such an iconic ship is standing on the shore, it can possibly withstand the stones, but...... crying
    1. +1
      February 5 2024
      Quote: Seal
      Oh really ? Papyri? Which "were miraculously preserved"? Would you like to look into reference books and find out how many years it takes for the best paper today to disintegrate? And by the way, look also where paper disintegrates faster, in a temperate climate or in a hot one. And papyrus is even more thermodynamically unbalanced than paper. Chemical materials science allows us to state that in 800–1000 years, even the best paper, as a thermodynamically nonequilibrium material, must completely decay. Why is paper a thermodynamically nonequilibrium material? Yes, if only because the paper contains paste. But the same paste (adhesive composition) is used in the manufacture of papyrus. And considering that in ancient times only natural ingredients, usually containing protein, were used to create pastes, any papyrus is simply obliged to decay to the ground within 500-600 years. This is thermodynamics, one of the most fundamental natural sciences. As Boltzmann said, you can’t argue with her. Although professional historians are often trying to do this

      All this is nonsense! The first papyri were brought to Europe in large quantities by Champollion. Then no one would fake them, and they wouldn’t even know how to read them. He was the first to start reading them. And now all papyri undergo such complex analyzes that counterfeiting them is generally impossible. By the way, no protein (paste) was used in their production. By the way, the mummies have also been preserved. And in huge quantities. So, I don’t care about your Boltzmann and his thermodynamics.
      1. +1
        February 5 2024
        So, I don’t care about your Boltzmann and his thermodynamics.

        Don't give a damn about them. It’s not their fault that just anyone is sticking them where they shouldn’t, trying to adapt them to all sorts of stupid things. Moreover, Boltzmann has an indirect relationship to nonequilibrium thermodynamics, and Prigogine would be very surprised if he read the commentary of a certain Sergei Petrovich.
        1. +1
          February 5 2024
          Quote: Dekabrist
          Don't give a damn about them. It’s not their fault that just anyone is sticking them where they shouldn’t, trying to adapt them to all sorts of stupid things.

          This is me on purpose. Sinful. Sometimes I like to annoy narrow-minded people.
  13. +3
    February 5 2024
    Many thanks to the Author for an interesting article.

    This really is an expedition...

    In all of Egyptian history, what impresses me most, let’s say, is its antiquity. This is millennia BC, and this story lasted for millennia. Ancient Greece, Rome, Byzantium, the Middle Ages, modern times and our crazy age - and their history is longer than all of this combined.

    Since then, civilization has reached space and reached the pinnacle of perfection - the Internet.

    And the Egyptians, all their 3 (!) years - up - under sail, down - with oars.

    Maybe that's how it should be...
    1. +3
      February 5 2024
      Quote: S.Z.
      Maybe that's how it should be...

      I have exactly the same impression from meeting her, and the more I get into their story, the stronger it is.
  14. +1
    February 6 2024
    Quote: Dekabrist
    Above there was a discussion about the possibility of using palm wood. Any. In principle, not only in Egypt. This is exactly what my comment refers to.
    This is the same as in a thread about the working qualities of Indian elephants citing cases of their lives of African elephants. And what, both of them are elephants? laughing
  15. +2
    February 6 2024
    Quote: kalibr
    All this is nonsense! Champollion brought the first papyri in large quantities to Europe. Then no one would have counterfeited them, and they didn’t know how to read them.
    They weren't faked. They were simply made. Not so long ago from the time of Champollion's arrival. That's all.
    Quote: kalibr
    He was the first to start reading them.
    You see, hieroglyphic inscriptions are so multivariate that any of them can be read in ten ways. Champollion just proposed the most interesting way to interpret hieroglyphs.
    Quote: kalibr
    And now all papyri undergo such complex analyzes that counterfeiting them is generally impossible.

    Yes, that you all ran into the conspiracy theory of “faking” and “faking”. These papyri were not forged, but created in everyday life. When ? Don't know !! Maybe 600 years before Napoleon appeared in Egypt. Maybe even later.
    Quote: kalibr
    By the way, no protein (paste) was used in their production.

    But lying is not good. If you are not aware, then I will explain what was used.
    Quote: kalibr
    Mummies have been preserved, by the way, too. And in huge quantities.

    Who doubts it? The question is not the number of mummies, but their age. And here every year there are more and more questions. The mummy seems to be “Ramses the Great” but turned out to be the mummy of a European. After such an embarrassment, as I understand it, the Egyptian authorities no longer gave permission for genetic research? But this cannot go on for long. Eventually normal scientists will have access to all known mummies. In other mummies, traces of nicotine (which is tobacco) and other plants of the American continent were found.
    Quote: kalibr
    So, I don’t care about your Boltzmann and his thermodynamics.
    Yes, you can at least spit on all the laws of physics and chemistry. This makes the laws of chemistry and physics neither cold nor hot. But every year the number of people who are skeptical about your version of Ancient and Ancient history is becoming larger and larger. Yes, as long as their growth is determined by arithmetic rather than geometric progression.
    But it's not evening yet hi
    1. +1
      February 7 2024
      The mummy seems to be “Ramses the Great” but turned out to be the mummy of a European. After such an embarrassment, as I understand it, the Egyptian authorities no longer gave permission for genetic research?

      You interpret the results of DNA research on mummies very freely. For example, here you go.
      https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694
      1. 0
        February 7 2024
        Quote from solar
        You interpret the results of DNA research on mummies very freely.
        In 2009 and 2010, Swiss genetic scientists conducted extensive DNA research on the mummy of Tutankhamun and other members of his family at the DNA Genealogy Center (iGENEA) in Zurich. In February 2010, the results of Y-DNA research were only partially published; information about the Y-DNA results was closed.

        It turned out that the Y-DNA of the mummy of Tutankhamun, his father Akhenaten and his grandfather Amenhotep III belongs to the Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1b1a2, widespread in Italy, the Iberian Peninsula and western England and Ireland.

        Up to 70% of Spanish and British men belong to the same Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1b1a2 as the Egyptian pharaoh Tutankhamun. About 60% of French men belong to the R1b1a2 haplogroup.

        About 50% of the male population in Western European countries belongs to the R1b1a2 haplogroup. This indicates that they have a common ancestor.

        According to the results of a study by the Swiss Center for DNA Genealogy (iGENEA), among modern Egyptians living in Egypt, the R1b1a2 haplogroup is less than 1%. Very few modern Egyptians are related to the ancient pharaohs.

        Director of the iGENEA Center Roman Scholz said that Pharaoh Tutankhamun and members of the royal family who ruled Egypt more than 3000 years ago belonged to the genetic haplogroup R1b1a2, common among modern Europeans, and which does not exist today among modern Egyptians.

        Pharaoh Tutankhamun belongs to haplogroup R1b1a2, like more than 50% of all men in Western Europe, which means that Tutankhamun was Caucasian, that is, a man of European appearance.

        The ancient Egyptians used various synthetic resins for embalming, which turned mummies black. This gave the false impression that the ancient Egyptians were Africans. In fact, the white-skinned pharaohs were considered the highest caste dominating the dark-skinned Egyptian population, consisting of different tribes. It is likely that the pharaohs' white skin also played a role in their deification 3000 years ago. The lighter the skin color, the higher the person's status in society.

        iGENEA researchers believe that the common ancestor of people carrying the genetic haplogroup R1b1a2 lived in the Caucasus approximately 9500 years ago. Haplogroup R1b1a2 comes from haplogroups R1b and R1a, whose representatives came from the Northern Black Sea region and the Caucasus to Africa (Egypt) through the territory of Asia Minor during the Neolithic period (Neolinic). Haplogroup R1a is the Proto-Indo-Europeans and... the legendary Aryans, according to the DNA of their modern descendants.

        Well, a neural network can help you

        https://disgustingmen.com/history/ramses-2-real-face/

        Ramses "The Great".
        1. -1
          February 7 2024
          You are copy-pasting without understanding the meaning of what is written.
          I gave you a link to an article in Nature from 2017 with a detailed analysis of the issue at hand, including the problems of contamination of DNA samples, their preservation in mummies, and changes in the composition of the population in Egypt over time.
          We found that the ancient Egyptians are most closely related to Neolithic and Bronze Age specimens in the Levant, as well as Neolithic Anatolian and European populations ( Fig. 5a,b ). Comparing this pattern with modern Egyptians, we find that ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations we tested ( Fig. 5b ), likely due to the additional African component in modern populations observed above.
          We find that ancient Egyptians are most closely related to Neolithic and Bronze Age samples in the Levant, as well as to Neolithic Anatolian and European populations (Fig. 5a,b). When comparing this pattern with modern Egyptians, we find that the ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations that we tested (Fig. 5b), likely due to the additional African component in the modern population observed above.
          .
          The ancient Egyptians were much more European than modern ones due to the subsequent admixture of the African component.
          And no sensation, ordinary science.
  16. +2
    February 6 2024
    Quote: Dekabrist
    and Prigozhin would be very surprised if he read the commentary of a certain Sergei Petrovich.
    Please don’t invent anything for Ilya Romanovich. He was an innovator in many ways. He saw Chaos and Order as parts of one whole. Prigogine wrote that Chaos and Order presuppose each other, need each other, arise from each other. Chaos, Prigogine argued, can be productive. At the micro level it is always present; it is the physical basis of instability. And thanks to her, objects
    under certain conditions they become sensitive to disturbances at the microlevel, fluctuations - and these affect the macroscale behavior of the object! In classical approaches such influences were not considered at all.
    Following your example, I will note that if Ilya Romanovich would devote more time to History, he would be much more dangerous for you than Fomenko and Nosovsky combined.
  17. 0
    February 7 2024
    Quote from solar
    For example, here you go.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694
    Excuse me, but were you “here” yourself?
    We read.
    In both the PCA and IMPURITY analyses, we found no significant differences between the three ancient samples, despite nuclear contamination estimates in two of them being greater than 5%, indicating no greater impact from modern DNA contamination. We used the outgroup f3 statistic, which allows ancient and modern Egyptians to measure shared genetic drift with other ancient and modern populations, using the Mbuti as the outgroup. We find that the ancient Egyptians are most closely related to Neolithic and Bronze Age examples in the Levant, as well as Neolithic Anatolian and European populations. Comparing this pattern with modern Egyptians, we find that ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations we tested, likely due to the additional African component in the modern population observed above. By calculating the f3 statistic, we determined whether modern Egyptians can be modeled as a mixture of ancient Egyptian and other populations. Our results point to sub-Saharan African populations as the missing component, supporting the results of the ADMIXTURE analysis. We replicated the f3-statistic results using only the least contaminated sample (<1% contamination score) and found very similar ones, confirming that moderate levels of modern DNA contamination in our two samples did not influence the analysis results. Finally, we used two methods to estimate the proportion of sub-Saharan African ancestry in ancient and modern Egyptians. Both the qpAdm and the f4 ratio test show that modern Egyptians inherit 8% more African ancestry than the three ancient Egyptians, which is also consistent with the admixture results discussed above. Absolute estimates of African ancestry using these two methods in the three ancient individuals range from 6 to 15%, and in modern samples from 14 to 21%, depending on the method and choice of reference populations. We then used ALDER to estimate the time putative pulse-like mixing of admixtures estimated to have occurred 24 generations ago (700 years ago), which is consistent with previous results from Henn and colleagues. While this result does not in itself exclude the possibility of much more ancient and continuous gene flow from African sources, the substantially smaller African component in our ∼2000-year-old ancient samples suggests that African gene flow among modern Egyptians has indeed occurred predominantly during the last 2000 years.
    By comparing ancient individuals from Abusir el-Melek with modern Egyptian reference populations, we found an influx of ancestry from sub-Saharan Africa after the Roman period, supporting the findings of Henn et al. Further research will be required to link this influx to specific historical processes. Possible causal factors include increased mobility down the Nile and increased long-distance trade between sub-Saharan Africa and Egypt. The Trans-Saharan Slave Trade may have been particularly important because it transported between 1250 and 6 million slaves from sub-Saharan Africa to North Africa over a period of about 7 years. reaching its peak in the nineteenth century.

    The nineteenth century is the nineteenth century by the way ad.
    1. 0
      February 8 2024
      You are copy-pasting without understanding the meaning of what is written. Read more carefully, I wrote above. There is no sensation.
  18. +1
    February 8 2024
    Quote from solar
    There is no sensation.
    Where did I write about the sensation? There is no need to invent anything for me.
  19. 0
    February 8 2024
    Quote from solar
    The ancient Egyptians were much more European
    Well, yes. There is only one question. According to the official version of history, the ancient Egyptians are the autochthonous inhabitants of the Nile Valley.
    So how and when did Europeans arrive in Egypt in such massive numbers that the Egyptians became Europeans?
  20. 0
    February 9 2024
    Quote: Seal
    But lying is not good. If you are not aware, then I will explain what was used.

    I will write about how papyrus was made. There is about this...
  21. 0
    February 11 2024
    Quote: Luminman
    It is possible to decipher the ancient text and understand its meaning.
    Moreover, from any hieroglyphic inscription you can make about 5-7 different “translations”, and all of them will be harmonious and plausible. But at the same time quite different. hi
  22. 0
    February 11 2024
    Quote: kalibr
    I will write about how papyrus was made. There is about this...
    I've been to this Egypt six times. And several times during excursions to Cairo I came across various so-called “papyrus factories”. Where papyri were made in our time, according to (as both museum employees and employees of these same “papyrus factories” assured) exclusively using “ancient technologies”. hi

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