Marathon: background, battle and stereotypes

98
Marathon: background, battle and stereotypes
One of many paintings demonstrating a pro-Greek view of the Battle of Marathon and hardly reflecting its realities


Heirs of Elam


In the article "Iran and Armenia in context stories and modernity“I promised to talk about the Greco-Persian wars not from a pro-Hellenic position.



In this article we will talk about the background Battle of Marathon and some details of himself, trying to dispel the stereotypes instilled from school.

The Persian state can be called the heir to the most ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia, ranging from Sumerian-Akkadian to Assyrian-Babylonian. Just like she is the heiress of the Elamites who lived in the Iranian plateau, who created - wrote the outstanding Soviet historian-orientalist M. A. Dandamaev - one of the most ancient and original civilizations, which had a great influence on the material and spiritual culture of the Persians.

Accordingly, culturally, Persia stood an order of magnitude higher than the Greek city states, which were warring like spiders in a jar. And in the religious too. For the Persians did not practice human sacrifice, unlike the Greeks - just remember the Battle of Salamis in 480. And the unrefined story of Hercules, with his sacrifice of his own children, can tell a lot about the beliefs of the Hellenes.

The Persians, if I’m not mistaken, forbade those who served in their navy to the Phoenicians, human sacrifices associated with the cult of Baal included the killing of infants.

And if we compare the religious views of the Persians and Greeks, then the former, albeit with a number of reservations, can be called monotheists, while the latter worshiped grumpy, cruel and depraved gods, and when Socrates doubted the need for this, he was simply executed. The verdict was passed by a democratic majority.

The Achaemenids did not show any interest in conquering Hellas, at least at the turn of the XNUMXth–XNUMXth centuries. BC. In a sense, they can be compared with pre-Qing China, around which lay poor lands that virtually excluded expansion against them. Unless the army of the Tang Empire undertook campaigns in the direction of the Tien Shan to ensure the safety of the Great Silk Road.

The same goes for Greece regarding the richer Persia. That is why its kings had little interest in mountain gorges and goatherd paths.

It is noteworthy that the Hellenes recognized their own poverty, in comparison with the neighboring great power. Thus, one of the Athenian ambassadors to Persia, Epicrates, once joked in the Ecclesia (People's Assembly) that instead of nine archons, it would be better for the demos to annually elect nine ambassadors to the king from among the poor citizens, so that the latter would become rich from the generosity of the Persian ruler, who invariably bestowed gifts on the ambassadors.

Here is an example, however, relating to the period preceding Alexander’s campaign and given in one of the works of the ancient historian E.V. Rung:

Timagoras (the Athenian ambassador who visited Susa in 368 BC - Author's note) received not only gold and silver in the amount of 10 thousand dariks, but also a precious bed and slaves to cover it, and even 80 cows with shepherds - under the pretext that, suffering from some illness, he constantly needed cow's milk; the porters who brought him to the seashore received 4 talents on behalf of the king.


Susa was once the capital of Elam and the ancestral home of the Persians; the city was also one of the capitals of the Achaemenids

Impressive, you'll agree. And it contrasts greatly with the murder of both the Athenians and Spartans of the Persian ambassadors in 490 BC, which, presumably, also represented a kind of sacrifice.

The above-mentioned author, describing the travel routes of the Hellenic ambassadors to Susa, provides evidence of the civilization of the Persians:

The route along the well-guarded Royal Road (from Sardis to Susa - Author's note), although one of the longest, was the safest, and therefore preferable for Hellenic ambassadors. Herodotus begins his description of the famous Royal Road with the following remark: “But along its entire length there are royal camps and excellent inns, and this entire route passes through a populated and safe country.” However, not only the convenience of a multi-day trip through Asia, the Greek ambassadors had to take into account, but also the prospect of the mediation services of one of the Western satraps, who could provide guides and security for the Hellenes.

At the same time, the Persians knew little about the Greeks living outside their power, as evidenced by the question of the satrap of Sardis and the nephew of Darius I (522–486) - Artaphernes, who received Athenian ambassadors in 507 BC, asking for protection from Sparta, whose envoys visited the city forty years earlier. Actually, the question concerned the location of Athens. The Spartans were asked the same thing.

The treachery of Athens and the generosity of the Persians


The Persians promised protection in exchange for, in modern terms, recognition of vassalage expressed in the formula of land and water. The ambassadors agreed. But eight years later, the Athenians supported the anti-Persian uprising in Ionia, located in the west of Asia Minor, which in Susa was rightly regarded as treachery, and they saw blasphemy and barbarity in the burning of temples.

An interesting detail: the Ionian Greek colonies were culturally superior to their own metropolis; I think, not least due to the influence of Lydia, whose kingdom was conquered by the Persians in the XNUMXth century.

The uprising looks all the more absurd - as, by the way, Herodotus found it - in the light of the increased opportunities for Ionian trade with neighboring and even distant countries under the scepter of the Achaemenids.

Yes

Having conquered the Greek cities of Asia Minor, the Persians, according to M. A. Dandamaev, did not touch the traditional institutions of local government there and did not create any obstacles to the economic and cultural development of these cities. During the period of Achaemenid domination, the outstanding philosopher Anaximander, the geographer and historian Hecataeus lived in Miletus, the leading city of Ionia, and the famous mathematician Pythagoras was born and spent part of his life on the island of Samos, which also belonged to the Persians.

In general, the support of the rebels by Athens, who violated the concluded treaty on their own initiative, outraged Darius I. And restoring justice through a punitive expedition seemed to the king a natural step. Although after the suppression of the uprising, the Persians generally refrained from taking revenge on the Ionians.


Darius I

Moreover, Darius I showed himself not only to be a generous person, within the framework of the realities of the time, but also demonstrated the talent of a strategist and politician. To provide a rear in the form of the newly pacified Greek cities of Asia Minor, he replaced tyranny with democracy in them, so as not to provoke discontent among the Ionian Hellenes, retaining their loyalty in anticipation of the operation against Athens.

Battle of Marathon - number of sides


But since it was precisely punitive in nature, the forces allocated for it were insignificant. The famous military historian G. Delbrück estimates the number of Persians at 4–6 thousand soldiers, which included from 500 to 800 horsemen.

Agree, it’s not very good for a campaign of conquest, as they sometimes write, which requires a dispersion of forces to ensure communications, control occupied territories, solve logistics problems and is designed to take into account non-combat losses, which until the XNUMXth century in all armies, as a rule, exceeded combat ones.

Their enemy fielded about 9 thousand hoplites (8 thousand Athenians and 1 thousand Plataeans). Hardly any more. For sixty years later, at the beginning of the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides determines the size of the Athenian army - 13 thousand hoplites. Both the mobilization capabilities and financial resources of the largest Greek polis at that time, which headed the Delian (Maritime) League, were significantly higher than in 490 BC.

And yet, in this situation, the Persians, led by the commander of the Median fleet Datis and the son of the Lydian satrap who led the land army (not to be confused with his namesake mentioned above, who was Darius I’s nephew) Artaphernes, attempted to take Athens.

Perhaps, in addition to the direct order of the king, the matter also has to do with Hippias, the former tyrant of Athens, who was expelled from the city in 510 BC and found refuge with the Achaemenids. It was he who proposed a landing in the Marathon Valley, which, according to him, was not guarded and located 40 km from the city. That is, the bet was placed on the swiftness of the attack and the alleged inability of the Greeks to quickly gather troops, which were a civilian militia.

However, as you know, the army of the strategist Miltiades was already waiting for the Persians. Given the numerical superiority of the Hellenes, Datis and Artaphernes had only two options.
First: hastily board the ships and try to land in another, more favorable place, taking into account the lost fact of surprise. In addition, when loading onto ships, the Persians were under the threat of attack from the Athenians located close to them.

The second way is to strike first, without waiting for the enemy to strengthen due to the approach of the Spartans, which the Persian commanders were aware of. The delay of the Lacedaemonians, who postponed the campaign until the full moon, played into their hands.

Presumably, a significant argument in favor of the attack was the absence of defeats from the Hellenes.

Persians: defeat, but not defeat


In a word, the Persians decided to fight.

G. Delbrück believes that when they approached a distance of 100–150 steps, the Athenian commander ordered the phalanx to attack. The Persians apparently withstood the first blow and may even have pushed back the center of the phalanx, but they yielded on the flanks and, forced to retreat, began loading onto ships. Considering that it did take place, the victory of the Greeks cannot be called absolute.

The main component of their success: the phalanx is a tactical formation, in the case of providing the flanks with either cavalry or a natural obstacle, absolutely insurmountable, largely due to the specifics of the weapons and protection of the warriors of the Achaemenid power, and not only them.

Improved by Philip II (382–336 BC), the phalanx remained invincible for other forms of tactical formation until the battles of Kinoxephali and Pydna - respectively in 197 and 168 BC, when it was crushed, and even then with difficulty , the Romans, with their more advanced formation of troops and tactics of use.

As for providing the Athenians with flanks, in the absence of cavalry, Miltiades solved this problem by erecting an abatis on one of them, which further narrowed the kilometer front. Another thing is that the fence was erected for defensive purposes; when the phalanx moved, its flanks most likely became open to attacks by the Persian cavalry, which, however, was numerically insignificant and therefore unlikely to be able to change the course of the battle and seriously shake the formation of the hoplites.

At the same time, Greek sources do not report the capture of enemy horses, that is, the horsemen, due to their small numbers, either did not participate in the battle at all, or were too tough for the Greeks. The latter is not surprising: the phalanx, as we have already noted, is strong as a closed formation, representing a monolith.

The capture of horses required its violation, which could lead to defeat, which, in fact, befell the Macedonians in the mentioned battles.

And the individual combat training of the Persian horseman was higher than that of the polis militia.

Another reason for the defeat of the Persians was the peculiarities of their weapons and protective armor. Here is how they are described by one of the best specialists in the military history of antiquity, P. Connolly:

Most of the Persian army consisted of lightly armed skirmishers - archers from central Asia or javelin throwers from the eastern Mediterranean. The Persians and Medes, who formed the core of the army, wore loose hats, colorful tunics with long sleeves (and a short scaly armor underneath) and trousers. They had wicker shields, possibly covered with leather, which in appearance resembled Boeotian shields - with a handle located in the center and an umbon attached opposite it on the outside.

Their weapons consisted of a short spear, about two meters long, a long compound bow, which was accompanied by reed arrows with bronze tips, and a dagger worn on the right side. The elite of the Persian army were the king's personal bodyguards, ten thousand "immortals", who were called so because their number always remained the same. Their personal equipment differed from the weapons of other Persians only in the richness of its decoration. The Persian cavalry were armed exactly like the infantry, except that some had metal helmets.

Let us add: G. Delbrück believes that the arrows of the Persians rarely killed hoplites well protected by armor. It is also worth taking into account the 2-meter, according to other estimates - 3-meter spears of the hoplites, which pierced the relatively weak armor described above by P. Connolly. And this is another explanation of the reason for the success of the Athenians and Plataeans on their memorable September day.

That's why I wrote above: perhaps the Persians pressed the center of the phalanx, which I had to read about, but which I doubt.

Given the mentioned length of the spears and the comparative weakness of the striking force of the Persians, due to their small numbers and the imperfection of offensive-defensive weapons in comparison with the hoplites, I admit that Artaphernes’ warriors did not overcome the wall of spears at all.

Those insignificant and recorded losses of the Hellenes - 192 people (Persian losses are unknown to us, and the figures given by the Greeks should not be taken into account) may be associated with the actions of archers and the battle near the ships, when the Greeks tried to prevent the loading and even captured seven triremes.

After defeat (but not defeat!) the Persians sailed to their homeland. G. Delbrück considers the tales about their desire, rounding Cape Sounion, to take Athens, to be empty gossip.

Darius I began to prepare a new campaign, but the anti-Persian uprising in Egypt that broke out in 486 BC confused his plans.

The next invasion, memorable by Thermopylae and Salamis, took place only ten years later. But that's another story.

The fate of Miltiades turned out to be sad: he led the siege of the Persian island of Paros, which turned out to be unsuccessful, and was forced to retreat. The Athenians accused him of receiving a bribe from the Parian king. Moreover, during the trial, the commander’s defense was represented by his brother - Miltiades himself was being treated for wounds.

As a result, the court, not finding the hero of Marathon worthy of the death penalty, sentenced him to a fine. Miltiades did not have the necessary amount, and he ended his days in prison. Democracy...

Использованная литература:
Dandamaev M. A. Political history of the Achaemenid state. M.: Nauka, 1985.
Delbrück G. History of military art within the framework of political history. Volume 1. Ancient world. St. Petersburg 1999.
Connolly P. Greece and Rome The evolution of military art over 12 centuries.
Xenophon. Cyropedia / Translation by V. G. Borukhovich, E. D. Frolov; the publication was prepared by V. G. Borukhovich, E. D. Frolov, M.: Nauka, 1976.
Martin T. Ancient Greece. From prehistoric times to the Hellenistic era. M., 2020.
Nepos Cornelius. About famous foreign commanders. Miltiades // https://ancientrome.ru/antlitr/t.htm?a=1479000100.
Rung E.V. Stay of Greek city-states in the Achaemenid state // https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/prebyvanie-grecheskih-poslov-v-ahemenidskoy-derzhave.
98 comments
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  1. -4
    24 December 2023 06: 20
    The author tries to convey in the article that Persia was culturally and sociologically superior to Greece. Very doubtful. Where then are the Persian Pythagoras, Archimedes, Aristotle? Let me remind you that one Greek proved the sphericity of the earth, another Greek (Eratosthenes) even quite accurately measured its diameter. The Persians, with their “more cultural development,” never even dreamed of this.
    1. +23
      24 December 2023 06: 43
      Quote: Proxima
      Where then are the Persian Pythagoras, Archimedes, Aristotle?

      In History, which we simply do not know. How much have you heard about the achievements of, for example, Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Jakarta al-Razi or Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi? And the latter is the father of Algebra.
      Here, for example, are several inventions that came to the world from ancient Persia:
      - Water pipes
      - Air conditioner
      - Windmill
      - Fridge
      - Sulfuric acid
      - Backgammon
      - Alphabet
      - Mail
      - Ice cream
      - Animation
      But the construction of a floating bridge across the Bosphorus, during the Scythian campaign, without good engineering units, with good knowledge, it was impossible to do this
      1. -14
        24 December 2023 06: 53
        Which of the following were invented by the nomads who formed the elite of the Achmenid Empire?
        1. +16
          24 December 2023 06: 55
          Quote: Cartalon
          nomads

          These guys don’t build cities, they don’t need them. And in ancient Persia there were plenty of magnificent cities in which science developed
          1. -13
            24 December 2023 06: 59
            What do you know about the development of science in Susa during the Achaemenid period? Where can I read about this? The Persians collected tribute and people for grandiose construction projects; they were not involved in any science at that time. If the Persians conquered Hellas, would you give them credit for the theater?
            1. +13
              24 December 2023 07: 01
              Quote: Cartalon
              If the Persians conquered Hellas, would you give them credit for the theater?

              But you didn’t know that Hellas was under the Persians... So, who knows?
              1. -10
                24 December 2023 07: 07
                What does it mean that Hellas was under the Persians, and Phoenicia was entirely under the Persians, which means that the Persians were excellent sailors and invented the alphabet, you don’t see any flaws in your logic?
                And the entire Persian statehood is built on the model of Assyria, so the Persians came up with genocide and mass migrations, it’s logical.
                1. +10
                  24 December 2023 07: 13
                  Quote: Cartalon
                  Do you see any flaws in your logic?

                  No, I don’t notice, since the conversation is about the historical legacies of Civilizations, and not just individual peoples. The wild nomads who captured the “oases” quickly realized the benefits of everything civilized and began not to spread rot, but to develop it.
                  1. -8
                    24 December 2023 07: 22
                    What exactly did the Persians of the Achaemenid times develop? There is no need to talk about Persian culture 1000 years later, but specifically under Darius and his descendants?
                    1. +12
                      24 December 2023 07: 59
                      Quote: Cartalon
                      What exactly did the Persians develop during the Achaemenid times?

                      At a minimum, statehood and a large empire stretching from Egypt to the borders of India. And this empire had to be managed somehow.
                      1. +14
                        24 December 2023 10: 05
                        Plus - the Persians, in all three incarnations of their statehood, were the most powerful and terrible enemies of the West. 1000 years. And this means something - like wild nomadic barbarians are hardly capable of this..
                      2. 0
                        24 December 2023 11: 36
                        Especially if you remember that there was no West at that time, then this is a dubious statement in principle; the Persians were also enemies of all their neighbors.
                      3. +4
                        24 December 2023 11: 38
                        That is, Rome is not the West for you??? belay
                      4. 0
                        24 December 2023 11: 45
                        Rome is Rome, the Mediterranean ancient civilization, the West is Western Christianity, before that there was no West.
                      5. +12
                        24 December 2023 12: 00
                        Quote: Cartalon
                        West is Western Christianity

                        Western Christianity completely emerged from ancient Roman civilization. She is the heiress of Rome. Sorry for intruding into your conversation...
                    2. +5
                      24 December 2023 10: 02
                      Well, you can start with Zoroastrianism, many of the basic provisions of which are directly related to Judaism, Islam and Christianity..
            2. +13
              24 December 2023 10: 01
              Quote: Cartalon
              What do you know about the development of science in Susa during the Achaemenid period? Where can I read about this? The Persians collected tribute and people for grandiose construction projects,
              Grandiose construction projects must be managed. We need engineers and architects...
              1. -5
                24 December 2023 11: 35
                Were the engineers and architects Persians?
                No, they were Egyptians and Babylonians.
                1. +8
                  24 December 2023 11: 58
                  Quote: Cartalon
                  Were the engineers and architects Persians?
                  No, they were Egyptians and Babylonians.

                  The “nomads” were smart.
      2. +1
        24 December 2023 06: 55
        Quote: svp67
        Have you heard about the achievements of Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Jakarta al-Razi?

        Well, you compared! This person lived in the 10th century AD. This is a product, like a whole galaxy of other Muslim scientists and poets, a derivative of the so-called Islamic Renaissance. This is a completely different story.
      3. +4
        24 December 2023 07: 36
        Quote: svp67
        And the latter is the father of Algebra.

        Algebra without a zero is not algebra, but it was invented by the Hindus in their time...
        1. Fat
          +4
          24 December 2023 08: 13
          hi Greetings. You're right. It should be added that algebra without negative numbers is also unusable. Wiener’s binary logic excludes dialectics, for which his “cybernetics” was rightly criticized by Marxists. laughing
          You should always remember that in addition to “truth” and “false” there is also “neither true nor false.”
          It was Aristotle, frightened by the “excessive complexity” of logical constructions, who introduced the principle of “excluded middle,” although initially it (logic) was assumed to be ternary (-1,0,+1).
          Now the majority of people are slurping up the crap of “iron logic” with big spoons, starting from their first computer science lessonssmile
          1. +3
            24 December 2023 08: 29
            Quote: Thick
            Should add algebra without negative numbers

            I remember one lecture on math began with the fact that numbers less than zero do not exist in nature, after which the teacher began to babble something about negative numbers - the audience simply exploded with laughter! Even those who usually sleep during lectures laughed... wink
            1. +4
              24 December 2023 11: 02
              that numbers less than zero do not exist in nature,
              Surely he said “modulo”, someone didn’t hear, and then the herd instinct kicked in.
              1. +3
                24 December 2023 11: 40
                Quote: Aviator_
                Surely he said - "modulo"

                I don’t even remember, but on this issue I completely agree with one French mathematician, after whom one of the programming languages ​​is named - nothing can be less than nothing...
                1. +4
                  24 December 2023 13: 35
                  I don’t even remember, but on this issue I completely agree with one French mathematician, after whom one of the programming languages ​​is named - nothing can be less than nothing...
                  Well, the teacher told you about this, and you decided to have fun. And about the French mathematician, in whose honor the unit of pressure is named, we wrote a poem at our department:
                  And Pascal, who is Blaise
                  I instantly climbed into the hayloft
                  Bab crushed Pascal depraved
                  Like Newton per square meter.
                  1. +2
                    24 December 2023 14: 23
                    Quote: Aviator_
                    At our department we wrote a poem:

                    Of the poems about mathematics, I have only heard about Pythagorean trousers, which are equal in all directions... wink
                    1. +3
                      24 December 2023 14: 43
                      Pythagorean pants, which are equal in all directions...
                      This is a classic. And our poet from the department also wrote about the creators of physical optics:
                      Fraunhofer and Fresnel
                      They irradiated the crack with light,
                      Fresnel, Fraunhofer
                      Everything else is crap
          2. ANB
            +2
            24 December 2023 16: 46
            . You should always remember that in addition to “truth” and “false” there is also “neither true nor false.”

            So this is SQL Oracle. A Boolean variable can have 3 states: True, False, null.
            When coding in pl/sql, you should always remember this.
            1. +1
              24 December 2023 18: 24
              Quote: ANB
              SQL Oracle. Boolean variable

              What one-sided thinking you have! In SQL Server only 0, 1 and NULL and no True, False, null... wink wink
              1. ANB
                +1
                24 December 2023 18: 45
                The boolean field type is not provided for tables. At least in Oracle. But there are variables and expressions of this type.
                If there is null, 0,1 - then this is already a number, which means it can be 2,3 and so on.
                For an ordinary developer (pascal, java, c, c#), it is usually a shock when a boolean variable has 3 states. And stupid mistakes happen. I was so wrong myself the first time.
            2. Fat
              +3
              24 December 2023 18: 35
              Quote: ANB
              So this is SQL Oracle. A Boolean variable can have 3 states: True, False, null.
              When coding in pl/sql, you should always remember this.


              hi Yes, Andrey. Many DBMSs use software emulations of ternary logics. Not just Oracle. I have never worked in the pl/sql environment, since my “career” as a programmer ended back in 1982 smile

              PS The first and only fully ternary serial computer was developed by Brusentsov's group in 1959. This is "Setun". The Kazan Mathematical Machines Plant built 1960 of these mini-computers in the early 46s. They entered universities and design bureaus of the USSR. KZMM was very, very reluctant to build these machines due to their “exorbitant” cheapness. Approximately 25 pre-reform rubles, this is 000 times cheaper than classic computers...
              Until 2008, global computer manufacturers used only software emulations of ternary logic drinks
              1. ANB
                +1
                24 December 2023 18: 54
                To be honest, this ternary logic often only confuses.
                Although the initial idea was interesting: yes, no, I don’t know.
                But while electronics uses a binary bit, then to encode a regular Boolean variable you need 1 bit, and a ternary variable needs 2. However, in fact, both are still 1 byte. And you can work with bits only at the level of bit masks. I have not seen an optimizer that collects logical variables from code into bytes and words.
                Did these computers have ternary bits or Boolean variables and expressions at the machine code level in 3 states? Question out of interest. I've never seen anything like this since I started programming in 1987.
                1. Fat
                  +2
                  24 December 2023 20: 13
                  Quote: ANB
                  While electronics uses a binary bit, then to encode a regular Boolean variable you need 1 bit, and a ternary variable needs 2. However, in fact, both of them still require 1 byte.

                  N.P. Brusentsov developed a ternary ferrite diode cell, which worked in a two-bit ternary code, that is, one trit was written in two binary digits, the fourth state of two binary digits was not used.
                  1 trit turned out to be 1.6 times more information-intensive than 1 bit.
                  1. ANB
                    +3
                    24 December 2023 23: 37
                    . two-bit ternary code

                    I didn't quite understand this.
                    Tomorrow I’ll do the calculations and better yet write to you in a personal message.
                    Otherwise, there’s an article about Ancient Greece and Persia, and we’re discussing computers. :)
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. +3
        24 December 2023 08: 37
        Quote: svp67
        Here, for example, are several inventions that came to the world from ancient Persia:
        - Water pipes
        - Air conditioner
        - Windmill
        - Fridge
        - Sulfuric acid
        - Backgammon
        - Alphabet
        - Mail
        - Ice cream
        - Animation

        How do the above inventions relate to 5th century BC Persia? request Let's take a windmill. It was really invented in Eastern Persia, or rather in Khorasan, but this is already the 9th century AD! You can also go through other inventions.
      6. +3
        24 December 2023 10: 47
        Remember the expression: “Until the Greek Kalends” - that is, never. The Greeks did not have calendars
      7. The comment was deleted.
    2. +5
      24 December 2023 07: 33
      Quote: Proxima
      The Persians, with their “more cultural development,” never even dreamed of this

      It’s in vain that you put the word in quotation marks cultural development. The Persians, at least in terms of culture and intelligence, are head and shoulders above their nomadic neighbors and camel drivers...
    3. +6
      24 December 2023 10: 29
      The author tries to convey in the article that Persia was culturally and sociologically superior to Greece. Very doubtful.

      The author simply made an unsuccessful attempt, forgetting to point out that at the time of the Battle of Marathon, Persia was culturally and socially superior to Greece. This is well known and does not raise any doubts. The “Golden Age” of Greek civilization began just after the Battle of Marathon.
    4. +5
      25 December 2023 04: 00
      Quote: Proxima
      The Persians, with their “more cultural development,” never even dreamed of this.

      the fact that you are ignorant of Persian achievements doesn't mean that they do not exist.
      thd fact that your graduation outfit (assuming you graduated) is a tribute to Avicenna, a Persian physician and mathematician who invented universities and modern science, means that even westerners consider Persian to be the symbol of knowledge, so in their graduation, they mimic Persian clothing.
      And for philosophy, I must remind you that the idea of ​​the philosopher king is inspired by Cyrus the Great, who, at the peak of his power, decided to make slavery illegal, freed all slaves, and granted the freedom of religion and tradition.
      among liberated slaves were the Jews That's why Cyrus the great is only non-Jewish Masiah in the bible
      In fact, except for democracy, the entire western culture is adopted from Persians, especially in eating and clothing by using forks and spoons and wearing suits instead of one piece of cloth wrapped around you like Greeks used to wear.
      these sophisticated people weren't sophisticated enough to come up with shirt and trouser to allow them to fight in clothes so they had to go to battle naked, not for statics, because, as you can imagine, it is not easy to fight while holding on to a cloth with one hand to keep it on your back .in picture I added you can see how the greek themselve depicted Persians in battlefield while greeks were barefoot and naked
      The US federal system is a carbon copy of the Persian way of governing that allowed their satrapy or state some room for adopting laws better suited for their tradition and give the satrap or governor some degree of autonomy to deal with different issues. Thats why in US today, in one state you will be executed for murder and in another you will serve only 5 years .the idea of ​​religious freedom in US constitution is directly fro Persians duand Thomas Jefferson obsession about Persians and that is not conspiracy even the most anti Iranian American admitted that as you can see in the pictures I added
      Although the American founders liked the idea and put it in their constitution, they were too greedy to let go of their slaves because, ultimately, they didn't believe that they should have equal rights and just liked what the Persians did, similar to how you like what Jesus did, but you can't practice it.
      Even the UN is a carbon copy of similar systems in the Persian Empire called the Gate of All Nations, where all the nations came and asked the Persians to judge between them or if they had any grievances with the Persians themselves.

      Zarathustra is in order of magnitude is bigger than any Greeks could dreem the monotheism the duality of good and evil and the idea of ​​judgment day all came from Zarathustra and zorastrian and even the character of Satan as enemy of god and all good things are coming from Zarathustra to Judaism and Christine and Muslim
    5. +2
      25 December 2023 15: 12
      In general, the author is right. Already, in any case, not “lower” than the Greeks, if we bear in mind cultural and social development. After all, the Persians mastered and controlled (firmly and for quite a long time), incl. and culturally and economically, much larger spaces than the “peninsula” of the Hellenes...

      And “Pythagoras”, “Aristotle”, “Archimedes” and other “Platons” existed among the Greeks only “in the singular”...
  2. 0
    24 December 2023 06: 32
    I was pleased to note that the Persians are the heirs of a great civilization, unlike the Greeks who fight like spiders in a jar
    Point one, the Persians are typical nomads who subjugated the farmers, so they only mastered external forms from this civilization. Point two of the history of this civilization, look at this 3 millennium war of all against all.
    1. +12
      24 December 2023 07: 06
      Quote: Cartalon
      Point one, the Persians are typical nomads who subjugated the farmers

      And those who had intelligence, preserve and develop what they were able to obtain. I say again that nomads do not need cities, and in Ancient Persia they were not destroyed, but rather cultivated and developed
      Quote: Cartalon
      Point two of the history of this civilization, look at this 3 millennium war of all against all.

      Here you have fun... and the History of the same Greeks is such a peaceful coexistence....))) Athens, Thebes, Sparta, Macedonia... their history is the history of wars, mostly among themselves
    2. 0
      27 December 2023 13: 42
      Regarding “typical nomads”, it is very doubtful. For the nomads, who eventually switched to a sedentary way of life and, although they “subordinated” the farmers to themselves, did not destroy their civilizational foundations, but adopted them, these are no longer “typical” nomads at all...

      And about the “wars”... After all, among the Hellenes, the squabbling between the “policies” (and within them) was also quite serious. True, history hasn’t given them “thousands of years” for it...

      In general, I believe that if we talk about “civilizations” on a large scale, then the Persians should be “compared” not with the “Greeks”, but with the Romans, the cultural and civilizational heirs of the Greeks. The Greeks were “conquered”, having previously been, in comparison with them, “barbarians” in cultural terms...

      I believe that only one thesis can be accepted as a conditional “axiom” - the Greeks were the first to make consistent efforts to “transform” empirical experience and empirical information (in various fields...) into a system of “academic” scientific knowledge.. .
  3. Fat
    +2
    24 December 2023 07: 08
    hi Bravo, Igor. Great article. Initially "holivar"
    It all depends on your point of view laughing
  4. +1
    24 December 2023 07: 23
    And what did the Greeks lack? the Persians brought them culture, developed science, built roads, hospitals, schools, and if they organized campaigns, they were not conquering, but only punitive, practically loving, and after all this happiness they decided to rebel.
    1. +1
      28 December 2023 12: 50
      Probably, the Greeks “lacked” something that they later “received” from the Romans...
  5. +4
    24 December 2023 07: 39
    Quote: Cartalon
    Which of the following were invented by the nomads who formed the elite of the Achmenid Empire?

    Most of the people inhabiting Persia were sedentary. And the nomads are those who are now neighboring Iran - take a look at the map and you will immediately understand everything. They still have the mentality of nomads...
  6. 0
    24 December 2023 08: 02
    Persia of the era of antiquity, curious to others. In fact, the Persians were initially a less cultured nomadic people, who, at the peak of “passionarity” and a combination of circumstances, captured a number of developed states of Asia Minor. The reforms of the Persian kings are essentially the forerunner of what the Tatar-Mongol khans did. The result is the assimilation of less cultural ethnic groups into more cultural ones (see the history of the Vikings). The case of Persia is an uprising of conquered peoples, giving way to revolts of satraps.
    The assessment of the strength of the parties at Marathon is interesting because the Author gives data that is convenient for him, following Delbrück. Whose works were met critically by colleagues in the craft. In general, the works of domestic historians have developed different (in my opinion, more reliable) figures. 10 Greeks were opposed by 000 Persians. If you believe the Greeks themselves, then in the second line there were 10 slaves who were promised freedom. In fact, Athens had priority among the forces initially, but for other reasons.
    The author also belittled the tactical talent of Miltiades. The latter initially weakened the center of the phalanx, strengthening the flanks, which ultimately led to victory at Marathon.
    The assertion that the Persian horseman had superior training over the Hellas hoplite, I think, is also unfounded. Training to fight in the ranks was the responsibility of a citizen of the polis. Only immortals know about systematic training in the Persian army. Naturally, they were not present at Marathon.
    About three-meter spears, it’s doubtful. The latter just appeared during the Greco-Persian wars.
    Now about beliefs. Of course, compared to the Assyrians, the Persians are darlings - they did not remove the code from living captives. However, like the Mongols afterwards, they did not interfere with the religion of the punished peoples in principle.
    In general, thanks to the Author! The truth is somewhere in the middle!!!
    1. +3
      25 December 2023 06: 29
      "The Author and the tactical talent of Miltiades belittled." What did this mean? “The latter initially weakened the center of the phalanx, strengthening the flanks, which ultimately led to victory at Marathon.” How was this expressed? The phalanx was a kind of monolith, insurmountable for the Persians. The flanks did not need to be strengthened, but protected from cavalry attacks.
      “The assertion that the Persian horseman had superior training over the Hellas hoplite, I think, is also unfounded. Training to fight in the ranks was part of the duties of a citizen of the polis.” No, not unfounded: a conscript soldier, even a trained one, will always be inferior to a professional.
      1. -1
        25 December 2023 16: 11
        The phalanx was a kind of monolith, insurmountable for the Persians.

        History knows many examples when horsemen broke through a phalanx, shield wall or square.
        Strengthening the phalanx is ensured by increasing the number of its ranks or, as in the case of Marathon, by the quality of trained hoplites.
        A conscript soldier, even a trained one, will always be inferior to a professional.

        You apparently think very well of the Persian army. The only permanently active units were the immortals and chariot detachments under the Tsar and the satraps.
        The remaining units were formed for the period of the war and on a national basis.
        Thank you very much Igor for the article, best regards Vlad!
  7. +9
    24 December 2023 08: 02
    I have been to the countries of the Near and Middle East. I can say with confidence that Iranians compare favorably with Arabs, Turks, Kurds and others. And what kind of women are there, you can break your eyes and dislocate your neck! wink
  8. +3
    24 December 2023 08: 19
    Hellas was a hot, boiling volcanic lake, and Persia was already becoming a stagnant swamp. Having repeatedly fought with the Greeks and received defeats from them, the Persians did not learn anything. And when Alexander Filippovich Argeadov arrived, the Persians were blown away, despite their multiple numerical superiority. So there is no need to talk about the cultural superiority of the Persians. They, yes, had a huge historical heritage, but the Greeks had a desire for development. And that’s why they won, and then completely wiped the Achaemenid power into dust. And of course, we must not forget about the advanced weapons and tactics of the Greeks. The Persians themselves recognized this and highly valued the Hellenic mercenaries. But they appreciated it, but did not adopt the best practices. But if Darius at Gaugamela had a phalanx in the center with Iranian cavalry on the flanks, then the Macedonian would have received amba. But no one wanted to learn from the barbarian Greeks
    1. +4
      24 December 2023 10: 42
      In general, you are right, but there is one thing I don’t like - linking the level of culture to the development of military affairs.
      These are practically unconnected directions now, and even more so then.
      And personally, my opinion is that the debate about who was more developed is not entirely correct. With that exchange of information, or rather the practical absence of it, in one state, and even a city, there was a contrast in development. Everyone was “cooking” in their own closed world.
      Therefore, the general level of Greece and the Middle East was probably almost the same.
    2. +1
      25 December 2023 06: 11
      "The Persians learned nothing." We studied. Already at Plataea they had hoplites at their disposal, just as Darius III had them. The problems lay in the structure of the government
  9. +6
    24 December 2023 08: 37
    laughing After reading the article, as analogies suggested themselves, Darius decided to carry out an operation to force peace with demilitarization and other things, but it did not work out. laughing
  10. +9
    24 December 2023 10: 17
    The Greeks were barbarians, as were the Romans later, but the barbarians always destroyed the civilized, then they themselves became civilized and were destroyed. Fat prevents development and leads to regression.
    1. +4
      24 December 2023 11: 06
      The Greeks were barbarians
      I probably agree. Before the Santorini volcano exploded, destroying the Mycenaean civilization. Then the Greeks, having absorbed its remains, began to develop.
    2. +3
      24 December 2023 11: 41
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      Fat prevents development and leads to regression

      Accurately noted...
      An artist must always be hungry...
      1. +1
        27 December 2023 14: 00
        “The philosopher searches for meaning after having had a decent dinner, but before him, the hungry Griboedov was looking for it.”
        1. 0
          27 December 2023 16: 20
          Quote: Kurganets-45
          “The philosopher searches for meaning after having had a decent dinner, but before him, the hungry Griboedov was looking for it.”

          Griboyedov, in general, was never particularly hungry... wink
  11. +2
    24 December 2023 11: 35
    In this material we will talk about the background of the Marathon battle and some details of it, trying to dispel the stereotypes instilled from school.

    As I understand it, this is a modern example of “literary marketing” - the author himself comes up with “certain stereotypes” and himself refutes them.
    What the author was going to refute is unclear.
    It is well known that Ancient Persia was one of the great civilizations that made a significant contribution to the development of world science and culture.
    The fact that at the time of the Battle of Marathon, Persia was culturally and socially superior to Greece is also well known.
    The goals of the expedition of Datis and Artaphernes are also known - the Ionian uprising directly threatened the integrity of the Persian Empire and required an adequate response.
    Regarding the number of participants, the author resorts to obvious manipulation, citing only Delbrück’s estimates and “leaving behind the scenes” modern estimates, according to which the number of the Greek army is 10 - 000, the Persian army is 11.
    If the author decided to cover the Battle of Marathon “not from a pro-Hellenic position,” then it would be much more interesting to review some Iranian sources, according to which the Battle of Marathon is, in modern terms, a fake, invented by Western historians and there was no battle in fact.
    1. 0
      25 December 2023 06: 09
      “It is well known that Ancient Persia was one of the great civilizations that made a significant contribution to the development of world science and culture.” Far from being generally known. Regarding 25 thousand Persians, this is a more than controversial statement, due to doubts regarding the ability to control such a mass of troops on the battlefield, provide foraging, food directly for the troops, etc. Effective management of such masses of troops was achieved only by the Romans with their military organization, and in the “dark ages” “it was lost and not restored until the New Age. Just look at the Battle of Nicopolis in 1396.
  12. +4
    24 December 2023 12: 13
    It could have turned out to be a good “revisionist article” if not for the depressingly low level of the author.
    What were human sacrifices in Greece during the Persian Wars? They remained in the archaic period.
    What about the Persian institution of eunuchs?
    Progressive?
    The poverty of the Greeks is a rhetorical device invented by the Greeks themselves. "The few have conquered the many, the poor the rich." The Athenians collected 700 talents from the maritime alliance. This is comparable to tax revenues from the richest provinces of the Persian Empire.
    Shoving Delbrück is completely nonsense. The man was not a historian and chopped up the data according to his own understanding, on the basis that he was a military man and knew better.
    1. 0
      24 December 2023 15: 07
      if not for the depressingly low level of the author.

      It seems that this level is becoming the main level for the site in all sections. Moreover, there is a phenomenon that Socrates called double ignorance - the authors think they know something, but in fact they do not know anything.
      1. +2
        24 December 2023 15: 13
        The approach through Runga could be interesting, although controversial.
        He believes that the Greeks did not win the Persian wars. His position is very controversial, as for me, but at least he tried to justify it.
        Alas, everything was flushed down the toilet by the inability and bias of the author.
        Our expectations are our problems (almost)
        1. +1
          24 December 2023 15: 48
          The approach through Runga could be interesting, although controversial.

          Yes, his position is not that controversial. And Rung was not the first to take this position. It’s easy to verify this by reading, for example, Fine, who is not a junior. His The ancient Greeks: a critical history.
          Or by reading publicly available sources about the conditions of the Peace of Antalcides. There is no way to conclude that “the Greeks won.”
          1. +2
            24 December 2023 15: 52
            The Greeks defended their independence. The Persians retained the policies of Asia Minor. Considering that the Persians' intentions to conquer Greece are obvious, the achievements of the Greeks look great
            1. +3
              24 December 2023 16: 00
              The Greeks defended their independence

              At the cost of the Greek cities of Asia Minor and Cyprus. Plus, by successfully applying the principle of “divide and rule,” the Persians completely protected themselves by directing all the energy of the Greeks to internecine wars.
              1. 0
                24 December 2023 16: 08
                It was the Persians who did not protect themselves. It was Greece itself that protected itself from any Persian encroachments.
                But the Persians now constantly had to keep their finger on the pulse of events. But even under such circumstances, either the Athenians would land in Egypt, or the Spartans would land in Asia Minor.
                The Persians began to play exclusively defensively. And the Greeks viewed the Persians as prey, whose turn would come after settling their household affairs.
                1. 0
                  25 December 2023 05: 57
                  “And the Greeks viewed the Persians as prey, whose turn would come after settling their domestic affairs.” During the Peloponnesian War, everything was the other way around.
            2. 0
              25 December 2023 05: 58
              "The Greeks defended their independence." From a historical perspective, no, the same Peloponnesian War is evidence of this: the Persians actively and unsuccessfully intervened in it
              1. 0
                25 December 2023 11: 20
                The Persians never intervened directly again. They only entered financially for those who benefited. never again did Persian armies invade Hellas. The Greeks invaded the Persian Empire. The Athenian invasion of Egypt was generally extremely dangerous for the empire.
    2. +1
      24 December 2023 18: 59
      low author level
      How dare you laughing He published his first works as a candidate of historical sciences. This is what the candidate of historical sciences wrote. Khodakov. And you deign to doubt laughing hi
      1. +1
        24 December 2023 19: 11
        Opportunists rarely come out with anything worthwhile, even if they are draped in regalia. And the author is no exception.
        1. 0
          24 December 2023 19: 13
          Opportunists rarely come out with anything good
          Apparently, this is the candidate’s thesis. laughing hi
          1. 0
            25 December 2023 05: 55
            In essence, the article has something to say?
    3. +1
      25 December 2023 06: 02
      “To push Delbrück is generally nonsense. The man was not a historian and chopped up the data according to his own understanding on the basis that he is a military man and knows better.” A). Delbrück is a world-famous military historian (at the same time, like any scientist, he is not controversial in his conclusions and calculations) b) was never a professional military man.
    4. +1
      25 December 2023 06: 21
      “What were human sacrifices in Greece during the Persian Wars?” a) they took place on the eve of the Battle of Salamis. b) Read carefully Plato’s “On the Republic” - it contains at least a hint of such a practice. c) Pausanias in “Description of Hellas” - book of the XNUMXnd century. BC - mentions human casualties. d) excavations on Mount Lyceum indicate that human sacrifices were made to Zeus not only in the archaic, but also in the classical era. d) the topic of eunuchs should not be discussed casually.
      1. -1
        25 December 2023 11: 05
        Only Plutarch reports about sacrifices. Allegedly, three of the king’s nephews were captured, a hundred already looks implausible. The rest remain silent. Most likely a historical anecdote that Plutarch loved so much.
        Further, as I understand it, there is a link to this article
        https://dzen.ru/a/XK3N7Nc0gwCwo2zY
        Plato makes a reference to past times.
        Pausanias makes a reference to the legendary Lycaon.
        On Mount Lyceum, the discovery of one human skeleton is indicated without indicating the cause of death or dating.
        Delbrück served in the army during the war. Which does him credit, but this fact caused irreversible deformations. Sources ceased to have a decisive role, and personal experience came first.
        He was not a historian - in the sense that hypercriticism led to the fact that the most important quality of a historian - synthesis based on historical documents - was replaced by a voluntaristic approach
  13. +3
    24 December 2023 15: 16
    Be that as it may, the author is right about one thing: all modern history was written by Western Europeans “from the words” of the ancient Greeks and Romans, whose heirs they consider themselves to be. The point of view of the others is not only considered wrong, it is considered non-existent. It is more comfortable.
  14. 0
    25 December 2023 08: 20
    Many thanks to the Author for raising an interesting topic.

    The Battle of Marathon is considered the first battle in which at least some tactical technique was used other than “wall to wall” or “crowd to crowd”, namely strengthening the flanks by weakening the center of the phalanx.

    “Rejoice, we have won” is a legend that has survived centuries.

    That is, a legendary battle in many ways.

    The author refers mainly to Delbrück, whose conclusions are disputed but not disputed.

    There are still debates about who had what advantage on the battlefield, and the Author showed one of the points of view - the Hellenes had both a numerical and material advantage. This point of view is not the most widespread, but it is not rejected either, since there is too little data.

    It is quite logical to assume that Datis attacked to give time for the main forces to board the ships, or perhaps he simply did not realize the enemy’s combat potential. In the end, in case of an unsuccessful attack, he could always go to the ships, which is what he did. But the Hellenes with their infantry would not have escaped his cavalry if the situation had been different.

    In addition, the Persian power, huge, rich, with a much more developed culture and economy, looked down on the Greek city-states in all respects. It was more of a punitive campaign than a military one.

    If we talk abstractly about whether the smaller heavy hoplite infantry can successfully resist the eastern armies, then there are historical examples when it did this successfully - "Anabasis" and Alexander's campaigns show that it can.

    Therefore, IMHO, nothing can be said reliably.
    1. -1
      25 December 2023 20: 55
      Persia was no more advanced than the Greeks. It was just a patchwork quilt of captured peoples, among which uprisings constantly broke out.
      1. +1
        26 December 2023 08: 01
        How was it not? It really was, the Royal Road alone is worth it, and how many historical monuments were located on its territory. Don’t forget that almost all the disgraced Hellenes fled to Persia - much like the way unwanted people are now fleeing from different countries to the West.

        As for the uprisings, the Greek city-states fought among themselves with no less passion than the satraps rebelled in Persia. And with great destructive consequences for yourself. By the way, Greece as a state did not exist. Sparta was simply the hegemon, having defeated everyone else as a result of wars, and then Alexander came - who was not always perceived as a Hellenic.

        By the way, as far as I remember, Persia is still the oldest country that has not lost its sovereignty - after Alexander the Great.
  15. +3
    25 December 2023 08: 57
    A couple more thoughts - from memory.

    1. The Persians could not have had much cavalry; they arrived on ships, if only for this reason.

    The cavalry itself, before the invention of stirrups, was a dubious military force, except for horse archers. The Carrs show what this might look like. But here is a landing party, a narrow valley, there is nowhere to attack and then retreat, the flanks are covered, where can you get so many arrows...

    IMHO, cavalry was not an advantage in those conditions.

    2. It was not Miltiades who commanded, but Callimachus, the plan was Miltiades and Miltiades convinced Callimachus to give battle and advance.
    1. 0
      25 December 2023 16: 16
      “The cavalry itself, before the invention of stirrups, was a dubious military force” - the question about stirrups is very controversial, and the Persian cataphracts, it seems, from the 6th-5th centuries. BC. were, except archers
      1. +1
        26 December 2023 10: 51
        As far as I remember history, there were cataphracts in Parthia and Byzantium and later the events described.

        Their combat use is controversial, since without stirrups it is not possible to strike with a spear using the mass of a horse (“knightly blow”).

        The Battle of Carrhae, the first time cavalry defeated disciplined infantry, was won by horse archers. The cataphracts of the royal guard, as is commonly believed, were able to resist the light Roman cavalry, but could not cope with the infantry. Either archers or cavalry with spears, striking with stirrups, could act against the dense formation of infantry. While the infantry held formation, it was practically inaccessible to the cavalry.

        But stirrups appeared in Europe much later. Before their appearance, cavalry was a minor force. I didn't see any sources. who would say that Datis used cataphracts.
  16. +3
    25 December 2023 14: 21
    At school we studied the Battle of Marathon from the point of view of the Greeks, in this article the author presented us with the point of view of the Persians, but in fact the truth is somewhere in the middle. What is not clear is some strange weakness in the armor of the Persian warriors, although they constantly fought, won, and with these victories managed to create a huge state.
    1. +1
      25 December 2023 14: 44
      The relative weakness of the Persians' armor was due to the quality of their opponents' troops until the Achaemenids encountered the hoplites.
      1. -1
        25 December 2023 15: 49
        As far as I remember, they never got their own heavily armed forces; they preferred to hire Greeks. In the same "Anabasis" there is such a description.

        Probably, such outsourcing was more profitable. In general, given the size of their empire, it was somehow difficult to count on infantry; by the time it arrived, the war would end.
    2. +1
      25 December 2023 15: 44
      The Persians did not have heavily armed opponents before the Greeks. The main weapon of the Persians is a bow, as far as I remember the descriptions, Callimachus was also killed by an arrow from a bow.

      The armor was very expensive, although compared to the Middle Ages, especially the late Middle Ages, hoplite armor was only so-so.
  17. +1
    26 December 2023 20: 43
    Inflating the merits of Greek heroes and commanders became real only due to the victories of Alexander the Great and the spread of Hellenism to almost the entire Ecumene, including many Roman proconsuls and emperors who were subject to Hellenism.
    History was written by the winners.
  18. -2
    27 December 2023 22: 34
    A perfect example of current revisionism. If the previous Western revisionism of this kind at first stemmed only from a game of the mind and a craving for sensationalism, along the way containing a lot of useful things, now it is based on the agenda, debunking the historical role of white heterosexual men (however, in relation to the ancient Greeks, “heterosexual” perhaps too much). Our agenda is now in a different direction - the fight against the West in all its manifestations, even 500 BC. The output product, however, is the same.

    Accordingly, culturally, Persia stood an order of magnitude higher than the Greek city states, which were warring like spiders in a jar.

    It would be extremely interesting to know by what criteria the author evaluates culture (judging by the words “by an order of magnitude,” he knows how to do this in quantitative terms). Consisting of small, constantly warring kingdoms, principalities and cities, Germany and Italy until the second half of the 19th century, apparently, were also an order of magnitude inferior in culture to Persia. I see that both the Greeks and the Persians knew how to build temples with columns, they knew how to create sculptures (but by the time of the events described, the Greeks were already moving from the same type of muscular kouros to magnificent realistic statues, which would become the standard until the era of abstract art, and the Persians were stamping bas-reliefs with endless rows of bearded infantrymen), minted coins and sculpted pottery. But at the same time, the Greeks had already (although their heyday was still ahead) laid the foundations of modern science and the way of thinking necessary for it, and this is worth more than a thousand pyramids. They already had (for all their legendary status) Thales, the semi-legendary Pythagoras, Anaximander, Parmenides, Xenophanes. There was no one like this among the Persians, and not because “the authorities are hiding it.” We know the names of kings, satraps, generals, but not scientists. If there were any, the Persian state and society did not consider them significant enough to be remembered throughout the centuries. And for today's civilization (even for the Iranian engineers designing the Geranium drones), the legacy of ancient Greece is incomparably more significant than all the Persian fossils.
  19. 0
    29 December 2023 18: 06
    As always, reading the comments is no less exciting than the article itself
  20. +1
    30 December 2023 18: 39
    And then the Chinese arrived. International review for 29.12.2023/XNUMX/XNUMX: the Chinese accuse the West of falsifying ancient history, mass creating in the Middle Ages many false works of Aristotle, Homer, etc. , if any existed at all. request
    1. +3
      31 December 2023 19: 21
      Quote: Chief Officer Lom
      And then the Chinese arrived. International review for 29.12.2023/XNUMX/XNUMX: the Chinese accuse the West of falsifying ancient history, mass creating in the Middle Ages many false works of Aristotle, Homer, etc. , if any existed at all
      And the main thing is that the Chinese cannot be called “Fomenkoids”, since the Chinese probably DID NOT READ Fomenko.
      They reached these conclusions with their own minds.
      Or maybe with the help of supercomputers hi
      However, the great Jean Hardouin also spoke about the mass creation in the Middle Ages of many false works of Marcus Aurelius and others.
      In 1690, after carefully rechecking the manuscripts of ancient authors, Jean Hardouin declared that many “ancient works,” in particular Cassiodorus, Isidore of Seville, Justin and a number of others, were created many centuries later. Continuing to check the sources, Hardouin came to the conclusion that the vast majority of books of "classical antiquity" - with the exception of the speeches of Cicero, Horace's Satyrs, Pliny's Natural History and Virgil's Georgics - were forgeries created by monks in the 13th century. The same conclusion applied to works of art, coins, materials from church cathedrals before the 16th century, as well as to the Greek translation of the Bible. Giving convincing arguments, Gardouin argued that the Christian apostles, if such existed, should have prayed in Latin. Passions were fueled by Hardouin’s working notes, in which the scientist directly called church historiography “the fruit of a secret conspiracy.”
      Gardouin, having analyzed the writings of the “church fathers,” also declared most of them to be fakes. Among the forgeries were the works of “St. Augustine,” to whom Gardouin dedicated many works. His criticism was called the “Gardouin system,” because although he had predecessors who wrote about historical “inaccuracies,” none of them examined the problem of the reliability of ancient texts so carefully.
      After the death of Jean Hardouin, official Christian theologians began to fight back against false documents. Thus, the “Epistle of Ignatius” is still presented by the Vatican as “holy texts.”
      Jerzy Lec was right when he wrote: “If you remove all the lies from history, this does not mean that there will be pure truth left there. It is quite possible that there will be nothing left there at all.”
  21. +2
    31 December 2023 19: 00
    Quote: Proxima
    Let me remind you that one Greek proved the sphericity of the earth, another Greek (Eratosthenes) even quite accurately measured its diameter.
    Is what you wrote confirmed by any documentary sources from “that very time”? And what about the narrative sources of “that very time” that reached the times of historical materialism?
    “The information that the ancients did not have was very extensive.”
    - Mark Twain. hi
  22. +3
    31 December 2023 19: 16
    Quote: Igor Khodakov
    Read carefully "On the Republic" by Plato
    There was a time when works on the topic of how the state should be structured were very popular. Starting with Machiavelli, who wrote The Prince in 1513. Then Thomas More wrote the book “Utopia” in 1516, in which he showed his understanding of the best system of social order using the example of a fictional island state. Then in 1623, Tommaso Campanella published his vision of the structure of the state, “City of the Sun”.
    So, Plato.
    Everyone knows the name of PLATO, but few people, except specialists, know that even “at the beginning of the 1421th century, humanists still did not know Plato at all, but, following the words of Cicero, they usually ardently rebelled against any doubt about the sublimity of his philosophy.” Humanists did not know Plato either in the originals or in translations. The first translation of several of Plato's dialogues was given by Bruni in XNUMX, but the originals he used have not reached us (so it is permissible to ask: did these “originals” actually exist?).
    Plato became widely known only after the Florentine philosopher Marcello Ficino brought the Latin manuscript of the Dialogues to the publisher Veneto in 1482, declaring it his translation from the Greek manuscript. After the publication of Ficino's manuscript, readers immediately noted a large number of anachronisms in it. The second edition of Ficino’s “translation” was published in Florence in 1491, and the third, where possible corrected from anachronisms, in 1517 in Venice.
    Ficino never presented Greek manuscripts to anyone until his death; His heirs did not find them either - the manuscripts disappeared without a trace (like Bruni's manuscripts).
    Only 30 years after the first edition of Plato, the Venetian Cretan Mark Masur presented the Greek text of Plato's works in 1512. This text was immediately printed in 1513, and then, with constant corrections, it was reprinted many times throughout the entire XNUMXth century.

    Mazur's Greek text is characterized by such pronounced diversity of styles that to date there is not a single dialogue that would be considered authentic by all Plato specialists. Of the 38 dialogues, nine are recognized by all researchers as fraudulent. One of the first and most authoritative researchers of Plato, Ast, recognized only 14 dialogues. Other researchers (Zocher, Schaarschmidt, Iberweg), while recognizing dialogues rejected by Ast, deny others. The record is apparently held by Schaarschmidt, who considered only 9 dialogues trustworthy, including those rejected by Ast and Zocher (see details in [Z], pp. 127-128).
    It is significant that most of the mentions of Plato’s name among “ancient” Greek authors became known after the appearance of Ficino’s translations.