Expedition to the ancestors. Solved and unsolved mysteries of "Belly Hill"

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Expedition to the ancestors. Solved and unsolved mysteries of "Belly Hill"
Neolithic wall painting from Tell Bukras in the Deir ez-Zor Museum, Syria


“And they look and see that the stone has been rolled away; and he was very great.”
Mark Gospel 16:4

Migrants and migrations. So, today we continue the story about Gobekli Tepe, and now is the time to remember the existence of the false idea that its buildings were specially filled up. Its author was Klaus Schmidt. The same archaeologist who began excavating this hill. But after his death, new excavations confirmed that they were filled up as a result of a landslide, and not the only one. So there is no mystery here. It’s just that the choice of construction site was not very successful. Although it depends on how you look at it. The fact is that the quarry where the stone was mined was very close. That is, there was a completely rational approach to the matter here. Well, they tried to correct the consequences of the landslide by building retaining walls. And somewhere at the beginning of the XNUMXth millennium BC, the “Stone Age zoo” in Gobekli Tepe lost its significance, and people simply did not restore it and excavate it. Agriculture and cattle breeding created new realities, new gods, so that the lives of people in the area changed greatly.



Skulls and stones confirm...


Archaeologists are always very happy when they find burials. And in 2017, they found fragments of a human skull with traces of special processing characteristic of the skull cult widespread in the Neolithic era. They were usually covered with plaster and painted. And here it should be noted that similar finds of plastered skulls took place in Ain Mallah, Jericho, and Iftael. That is, in this region, such a cultural tradition was widespread and was not at all unique to Gobekli Tepe.


Images of birds of prey on a slab in Gobekli Tepe


And these are images of birds of prey on the wall of the sanctuary in Catalhöyük. Drawing by A. Sheps

That is, the T-shaped stones and round stone walls found here were also found in other places in the area, although Gobekli Tepe is the largest structure among them!


Map of finds of stone structures similar to Gobekli Tepe. Drawing by A. Sheps

"Family matter!"


The largest stone T-shaped monolith, which was hewn out but did not have time to be separated from the stone base, could tell us about this. Its length is 7 m, the width of the “head” is 3 m, and its weight can reach 50 tons. Schmidt himself stated that

"the work of quarrying, transporting and erecting heavy, monolithic and almost universally well-prepared limestone pillars [...] is beyond the strength of a few men."

But what does “several” mean? “Several” is... how much: 10, 100, 1000 people? Based on Thor Heyerdahl's experiments on Easter Island, he calculated that it took 20 people working for a whole year to make one moai statue the size of a T-shaped monolith from Gobekli Tepe, and 15-50 people to transport it over a distance of 75 km . This gave rise to the opinion that the people working “at the site” were newcomers who were lured into construction (or forced to work there) by a small group of representatives of the religious elite. But there is also an opinion that using ropes, rollers, and some kind of lubricant, 7-14 people could do the same thing. Experiments were also carried out in Gobekli Tepe itself, and they showed that not so many people were required to build it. All currently open structures could well have been built by a “brigade” of 12-24 people in less than four months. And this takes into account the time spent on mining the stone itself and on household chores. That is, it could even be one large family or a village community in the Neolithic era. Such a quantity could easily fit comfortably inside one of the stone buildings. So the builders of Gobekli Tepe could well have been some ancient “advanced” family led by... one of the characters in Jack London’s story “The Power of the Strong”!


This is what one of the Gobekli Tepe circles could have looked like when it was completely built. Drawing by A. Sheps

What did you work with and what did you build?


The tools discovered by archaeologists are similar to the tools of other northern peoples. Back in 1963, more than 3000 Neolithic tools made from excellent quality flint were found here. But there were very few obsidian tools. During the excavations of "room 16", a very small building, next to "circle D", almost 700 stone tools were found. These are, first of all, tools with retouching, as well as scrapers, piercings and polished stone axes.

Neolithic tools, very similar to those found in Gobekli Tepe, are also found... in China!

As noted here, the stone columns in the Göbekli Tepe enclosures are T-shaped, similar to other pre-pottery Neolithic sites in the region. Most of the carvings on them are of animals, with males often shown in aggressive poses.

There are also abstract shapes that look like the letter “H”, as well as crescents and disks. People rarely meet. Thus, on column 43 in fence D, a man is depicted without a head, but with an erect phallus. However, it is believed that the T-shaped shape of the main stones itself is anthropomorphic in nature, that it is a human figure with arms, but for some reason... without a head!

Both Schmidt himself and a number of his colleagues believed that the oldest temple in the world was built here, where people cajoled predatory animals so that they would not harm them, and at the same time prayed to get as many herbivores as possible. Or stones with carved images are totems, like most Indian tribes!


Sculpted stone pillar discovered at Gobekli Tepe. Height 192 centimeters and 30 centimeters in diameter. It depicts three figures (from top to bottom): a predator with the head and neck and arms of a man missing; another figure is missing a head with human hands; and a third figure with a head that remains intact. Snakes are carved on both sides. Sanliurfa Museum

What kind of cult the inhabitants of Gobekli Tepe professed, we can only guess. However, there are too many animals carved there for this to be an accident. A lot of bones of deer, gazelles, pigs and geese were also found in the waste. Were they killed and prepared for those who came to pray? Or, on the contrary, are these sacrificial animals that were sacrificed to... stones? But since the same gazelles came here only during a certain season, then the holidays here were seasonal, right?


"The Man of Urfa", or "Balıklıgel Statue" is an ancient statue of a man found during excavations at Balıklıgel near Urfa, in Upper Mesopotamia, in the south-east of modern Turkey. Created approx. 9000 BC e. during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic period and is considered “the oldest naturalistic full-length sculpture of a human being" It is believed to be contemporary with the sites of Göbekli Tepe (pre-Pottery Neolithic A) and Nevali Chori (pre-Pottery Neolithic B)

In general, all this smacks a mile away of shamanism, totemism and the worship of the spirits of ancestors, both animals and people. The stone totem pole is exactly like the wooden totem poles of the Indians of North America. This is hardly an accident. Similar beliefs give rise to similar symbols.

And more and more supporters of the version that there was not only a temple or temples here, but that there was a village whose inhabitants, in any case, used water from cisterns carved into the stone. Could it be the “priests” and their servants? Yes, why not. And the builders of this complex also lived there... Yes, they lived, but that’s, in fact, all that can be said based on the information we have.


Clay figurine depicting a woman. Perhaps this is the “Goddess of Fertility.” Kermanshah, approx. 7000-6100 BC e. National Museum of Iran, Tehran

What did they believe and who did they worship?


We also know that the cult, of which all these Gobekli Tepe columns were a part, existed for a very long time. Moreover, at a distance of 47 kilometers northwest of Gobekli Tepe, on the banks of the Euphrates, a very similar temple was found (the Neolithic settlement of Nevali-Chori), which dates back to around 8400 BC. e. (about 1600 years later than the beginning of the functioning of the Gobekli Tepe temples). The temple has a very similar structure: two large T-shaped columns with “arms” in the center of the temple and around them smaller columns form the basis for walls stacked with stones.


Reconstruction of the appearance of the temple from the settlement of Nevali-Chori. Drawing by A. Sheps

But the walls here are already rectangular... That is, people lived, most likely, differently, but they had the same beliefs... That's all for now. All that remains is to wait until something else is dug up there. How long will they be digging there? Well, who knows... However, what does all this human “fuss” mean for this hill itself and what it hides within itself? He has waited for many thousands of years and may well wait a little longer!
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  1. +4
    24 October 2023 04: 23
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

    And the photo of stone axes is called a drawing - is that a typo?
    1. +4
      24 October 2023 05: 41
      Hi all!
      Experiments were also carried out in Gobekli Tepe itself, and they showed that not so many people were required to build it. All currently open structures could well have been built by a “brigade” of 12-24 people in less than four months.

      Is this in the absence of an iron tool? I don’t even know what to say... recourse
      1. 0
        24 October 2023 13: 07
        There is another subtle point here. All modern experimenters already KNOW how this is done... Possessing thousands of years of experience of their ancestors and the skills of such actions. And where were they supposed to come from from those who not only had never moved huge bully guns - but who had never even thought of such a wild thought before?

        I’m not talking about the idea of ​​carving bas-reliefs of this level on a STONE slab with a FLINT tool.. In general, I doubt that this is possible.. After all, to do this, you need to carefully remove a thick layer of stone from the slab.. Plus, you still have quite a bit of experience and spatial imagination. I personally would definitely not be able to do that. Even with an iron tool. Simply because no one taught me something like this. Who taught the then creators of the complex?
        1. +2
          24 October 2023 18: 57
          Wait, flint is not suitable for stone processing. Granites and basalts.
          But in general, a spherical cobblestone is ideal for working on soft stone. Longitudinal pebbles as a chisel too.
      2. +2
        24 October 2023 18: 56
        What surprises you?
        Like is best handled by like.
        The same volcanic tuff is much easier and faster to process with basalt, and limestone too. Not to mention, it's more convenient once you get used to it.
        1. 0
          24 October 2023 22: 34
          Where do you see volcanic tuff??? Besides, it’s one thing to roughly chop something like a moai, and quite another to carve a completely artistic three-dimensional bas-relief with such tools..
    2. +2
      24 October 2023 06: 49
      Quote from Korsar4
      And the photo of stone axes is called a drawing - is that a typo?

      Mistake.
    3. +1
      24 October 2023 07: 21
      Quote from Korsar4
      And the photo of stone axes is called a drawing - is that a typo?

      Yes!
    4. +2
      24 October 2023 18: 59
      There is only one ax, the second one from the left, and that one has been reconstructed incorrectly.
      However, both artifacts on the left are not shovels either.
  2. +4
    24 October 2023 04: 36
    Quote from Korsar4
    And the photo of stone axes is called a drawing - is that a typo?
    Most likely, this is not a completely correct translation. Perhaps the author meant - reconstruction...

    P.S. For some reason these are artifacts from a Chinese museum...
    1. +3
      24 October 2023 06: 20
      Let's say it's a reconstruction. Why "map"?
      1. +3
        24 October 2023 06: 33
        Quote from Korsar4
        Why "map"?

        Because similar finds are found everywhere. This one, for example, is from China. There is a website, but now for some reason it does not open: worldhistorypics.com
    2. +3
      24 October 2023 06: 50
      Quote: Luminman
      Most likely, this is not a completely correct translation. Perhaps the Author meant reconstruction...

      Error. Instead of a map I placed shovels from China.
      1. +4
        24 October 2023 07: 28
        Quote: kalibr
        Error. Instead of a map I placed shovels from China

        Why the error? The time is approximately the same, although a little younger. I don’t know what map you’re talking about, but a map of the distribution of sedentary cultures with its artifacts would fit very well here. And shovels from China would fit in well here too...
        1. +3
          24 October 2023 09: 21
          a map of the distribution of sedentary cultures with their artifacts would be very suitable here.

          rice. Map of finds of stone structures similar to Gobekli Tepe

          Not the most successful card, of course, but to be honest, I’m just too lazy to look for others. Let's hope that Caliber will release the card he announced.
          Good day, Nikolai!
          1. +2
            24 October 2023 15: 57
            Quote: Richard
            Let's hope that Caliber will release the card he announced.

            Next time!
      2. +4
        24 October 2023 07: 34

        This is what one of the Gobekli Tepe circles could have looked like when it was completely built. Drawing by A. Sheps

        Well, this is unlikely, judging by the lack of entrance openings during the reconstruction of Sheps, it was not possible to get inside the structure.
        1. +5
          24 October 2023 07: 51
          And most importantly, the structure had to have a roof, and here it’s not even a matter of protection from rain, but of protection from sandstorms, which are still known in those places today. I had the opportunity to serve for a long time in various regions of Turkmenistan, where rainfall is very rare, but sandy Afghans are a scourge. And this is not sand at all, but sedimentary rocks crushed into dust that are carried by the wind. Even with the windows completely closed, they seep into the rooms.
          here is a modern Turkish video from the city of Sanliurfa, located 8 km from Gobekli Tepe
          "A sandstorm covered an entire city in Turkey"
          1. +3
            24 October 2023 08: 05
            Maybe. A structure without a roof is just a fence.

            Frivolous question: did Stonehenge have a roof?
            1. +6
              24 October 2023 08: 42
              The only structures without a roof in those areas were (could have been) only dakhmas - the so-called. “towers of silence (death) are round tower structures used in the Zoroastrian religious tradition for “aerial” funeral rituals, in which the dead were “disposed of” by birds of prey, carnivorous monitor lizards and rodents. Images of which, by the way, are found on many steles of Gobekli Tepe. According to Zoroastrianism, fire, water and earth are sacred materials and they cannot be desecrated by the bodies of the dead. Dakhmas usually have a height of about 6 meters and were built of brick or stone on hills. The bodies of the dead were left on the upper platforms of the dakhmas, and when they were eaten by scavengers, the bones were coated with gypsum , alabaster, or calcite, so as not to desecrate the sacred elements of the earth, water and fire, and were thrown into dakhmas.
              a photo. ancient Zoroastrian dakhmas in Iran on the outskirts of the city of Yazd. There are two of them - on the right is female, and on the left is male. In front of them are some old clay buildings. Perhaps some rituals were performed here regarding the bodies of the dead

              So it is quite likely that the buildings of Gobekli Tepe could well have been proto-dakhmas, which means their religious beliefs could be close to proto-Zaroastrian ones. I am not asserting anything specifically, but simply putting it forward for discussion among fellow commentators as an assumption.
              1. +2
                24 October 2023 12: 34
                So it is quite likely that the buildings of Gobekli Tepe could well have been proto-dakhmas

                The version is beautiful, but untenable, due to the almost complete absence of human bones among archaeological finds, with the exception of fragments of three skulls, which bear traces of scraping, cutting, drilling and painting. That is, it clearly doesn’t work out with Zoroastrianism. Here you can rather fantasize about the “cult of the skull.” This is despite the fact that literally heaps of animal bones have been preserved.
            2. +3
              24 October 2023 08: 44
              did Stonehenge have a roof?

              Who knows now? Maybe it was.
              1. +8
                24 October 2023 08: 57
                the bones were coated with gypsum, alabaster, or calcite, so as not to desecrate the sacred elements of the earth, water and fire

                An interesting fact.modern Zoroastrian cemetery - aramga. The dead are buried in concrete graves so that the body does not come into contact with the ground.

                In addition to Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran, Zoroastrianism is widespread in India, as well as Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan. Not far from Baku - on the outskirts of the village of Surakhani there is even a Zoroastrian temple Ateshgah
                1. +3
                  24 October 2023 10: 02
                  In the museum in Dushanbe, Zoroastrian objects are among the most memorable.
                  1. +3
                    24 October 2023 11: 32
                    Greetings, Sergey!
                    I was personally struck in this museum by the bones covered with natural alabaster from the clay pro-Zoroastrian ossuaries of Penjikent from the Loess Paleolithic period and the words of the museum employee that Zoroastrianism is apparently one of the most ancient religions of mankind
                    1. +6
                      24 October 2023 12: 08
                      We are all guessing around the bush, but with a high degree of probability, the buildings of Gobekli Tepe could well have been proto-dakhmas of that period for pro-Zoroastrian burials. A lot points to this - their rounded shape, the absence of entrances to the central chamber, and human bones, as Caliber writes, covered with plaster, and images of scavengers and headless human bodies on stone steles. In any case, I personally would classify this hypothesis as the main one. And to Caliber’s phrase:
                      What kind of cult the inhabitants of Gobekli Tepe professed, we can now only guess

                      this hypothesis also allows us to give a completely sane answer - the religious beliefs of the builders of the mysterious structures of Gobekli Tepe were very close to pro-Zoroastrian ones.
                    2. +2
                      24 October 2023 12: 31
                      Greetings, Dmitry!

                      But my main feeling is that peoples came and went, leaving their traces.
                      1. +4
                        24 October 2023 13: 03
                        peoples came and went, leaving their traces.

                        As Arsenyev’s Dersu Uzala said:
                        everyone sees these traces, but not everyone can read them (c)

                        so in archeology and paleontology.
                        PS. off topic of course. but this rare photo is worth it.
                        Dersu Uzala (Derchu Ojal) in a photograph by V.K. Arsenyev. 1906
              2. +2
                24 October 2023 19: 36
                Of course it was! Stonehenge organized crime group! laughing
            3. +2
              24 October 2023 19: 00
              Yes, exactly the same as the moai of Easter Island supported)
          2. +6
            24 October 2023 13: 03
            and in protection from sandstorms, which are still known in those places today

            I don’t think that the humid post-glacial climate 10 years ago was very similar to the modern one... what
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +1
              24 October 2023 13: 35
              Likewise, the city of Shanliurfa, located 8 km from Gobekli Tepe, is far from a desert, but a fertile plain, and it is oh so far from the nearest desert. Here, Pavel, from the wiki:
              Şanlıurfa (Turkish: Şanlıurfa) is a city in southeastern Turkey, the capital of the Şanlıurfa region. Historical names are Urga, Antioch Kallirga and Edessa. In Muslim, Christian and Jewish cultures it is considered the “homeland of the prophets”. Sanliurfa lies 80 km from Euphrates and 45 km from the Turkish-Syrian border, in the northwest of the Urfa plain, surrounded in the west, north and east by mountains. In the southeast is the Harran Valley. Sanliurfa is located on a subtropical fertile plain approximately 80 km east of the Euphrates River. The city's climate is characterized by extremely hot, dry summers and cool, wet winters.
  3. +5
    24 October 2023 05: 30
    all this smacks a mile away of shamanism, totemism and the worship of the spirits of ancestors, both animals and people.

    Shamanism and the rest essentially do not need either temples or priests. Especially at this stage of development of social relations.

    Once again - Gobekli Tepe does not correspond to its era at all. No hunter-gatherers, or even early farmers, would have thought of the stupid idea of ​​spending enormous effort and time using stone tools to hew out stone pillars and build some kind of huge temple out of them. Because their religious views do not require this. Because this is not possible from an organizational point of view - there is no organizing and directing force, even in the form of a proto-identity. Because there are no surpluses with which to provide such colossal labor. Because there is no surplus product, the alienation of which in favor of the temple could justify construction of such a scale. Because - yes, I’m tired of listing everything, and it’s so obvious.

    The conclusion is simple - this complex is an artifact. Meaning that we do not understand something in the stages of development of society and economic relations. Or - it was not built by hunters of the early Neolithic level. And if you consider that the most ancient layers date back to the Mesolithic...

    And about the landslide - this is just one of the theories. Basically, it is still believed that it was filled up. Moreover, in the photo you can’t see any special hills around, from which a landslide of such a scale could come down. In addition, this is a sacred place that took a thousand and a half years to build. This alone speaks volumes about its importance. And what - they couldn’t dig him up?? So they threw away the fruits of the labors of generations of ancestors? Sorry - somehow I can’t believe it..
    1. +2
      24 October 2023 05: 45
      Quote: paul3390
      Or - it was not built by early Neolithic hunters
      Uh-uh, where have you gone? wink
      1. +2
        24 October 2023 12: 43
        And where exactly? I’m not saying that it’s like aliens or a pre-civilization. I am simply stating what has always been postulated by official science - material culture must correspond to the economic level of development of society. And in Gobekli Tepe - it doesn’t correspond to a damn thing.
    2. +3
      24 October 2023 05: 59
      Quote: paul3390
      Shamanism and the rest essentially do not need either temples or priests

      Well, actually, a shaman is already a priest...
      Any religion or ideology always needs places of worship - be it a fire around which a shaman jumps, a Christian cathedral or a Mausoleum. In the army and schools there were Lenin rooms, and in kindergartens there were Red Corners with portraits of Lenin’s grandfather. Man is simply accustomed to creating an object of worship for himself...
      1. +2
        24 October 2023 12: 45
        Shamanism is primarily meditative practices and worship of natural manifestations of the power of nature. Well - and to the spirits of ancestors. For all this, the temple is not only not needed, it is contraindicated. As an artificial object, in which, say, the spirit of a stone will definitely not live.
        1. +2
          24 October 2023 13: 30
          Quote: paul3390
          Shamanism is primarily meditative practices and worship of natural manifestations of the power of nature

          Is Christianity, Islam or Zoroastrianism something different? wink
          1. 0
            24 October 2023 17: 49
            Quote: Luminman
            Quote: paul3390
            Shamanism is primarily meditative practices and worship of natural manifestations of the power of nature
            Is Christianity, Islam or Zoroastrianism something different?
            Christianity and Islam separated creation from the Creator, the natural (subject to the laws of nature, operating from the creation of the world until the end of time) from the supernatural (subject to the will of the Creator, manifested not systematically, but episodically as a miracle) and created scientific experiment as the main method of systematic study of nature in the era "dark" Middle Ages. Without such a distinction in paganism it was impossible to create anything like the natural sciences.
            1. -2
              25 October 2023 19: 12
              in paganism it was impossible to create anything like the natural sciences.

              In Christianity this is also impossible; belief in the existence of the supernatural fundamentally contradicts the criteria of science.
              “The laws of nature” in religion are also one of the manifestations of the will of the creator, just like the supernatural.
              If the natural sciences had not been formed in spite of religion, we would still be reading the Bible to the core, looking for deep knowledge there.
              The emergence of natural sciences was not thanks to, but in spite of religion.
          2. -2
            24 October 2023 22: 42
            At an early stage - yes, almost the same. The church and priests appeared only when it became possible to withdraw certain surpluses with the help of religion. But here, in shamanism, there are simply no surpluses!! This means there is no need for such institutions...

            The only example of shamanism that has grown to the level of the church is Shinto. But - it became such already in the era of the formation of a normal state, and then - as a counterweight to Buddhist structures.
            1. +1
              25 October 2023 07: 57
              Quote: paul3390
              But here, in shamanism, there are simply no surpluses!!

              I’ll have to write about how much excess there is in shamanism!
    3. +2
      24 October 2023 19: 04
      If you don’t understand, why absolutize your misunderstanding and translate it to everyone? Speak only for yourself.
      The economy of primitive societies, deprived of food shortages, requires sublimation. So they build all sorts of things like that.
      Palace-religious structures of similar complexity for their time have been known since the Paleolithic, and in emerging civilizations, sublimation through this is the norm rather than the exception.
      The fact that mostly stone has survived to this day does not mean anything except that wood cannot survive for so long.
      1. -2
        24 October 2023 22: 27
        Complete nonsense. Even though you carry it purely from yourself. Sublimate - straining yourself for centuries carrying stones?? Hmm - what doesn’t knock on fragile minds...
    4. +1
      24 October 2023 21: 03
      I saw an abandoned settlement of the Middle Bronze Age, covered with mudflow deposits of several meters, it was abandoned because the climate changed, everything dried out, and then it was covered with mudflows because all the vegetation disappeared, and rain will still fall once every 30 years, see floods in the desert.
    5. 0
      2 November 2023 21: 34
      No hunter-gatherers, or even early farmers, would have thought of the stupid idea of ​​spending enormous effort and time using stone tools to hew out stone pillars and build some kind of huge temple out of them.

      All megalithic structures date back to a fairly early period of agriculture or even pre-agriculture. People suddenly received a lot of free time and an abundance of food and did not find anything more necessary to invest their energy in, how to build magical megaliths, fortunately they had experience working with stone. More advanced societies have found less monstrous and more graceful ways to spend resources to benefit not only the gods, but also the personal priests and leaders.
  4. +6
    24 October 2023 05: 46
    Neolithic tools very similar to those found at Gobekli Tepe

    Once again, what is found in such places does not say anything about the builders themselves. There are also graves of Celtic leaders in Brú na Bóinne - but for some reason the complex itself is dated at least a couple of thousand years earlier.

    In general, I wonder if anyone tried to make a relief image similar to, say, this on a stone slab using a flint tool? Of course, I’m not an expert in stone processing - but for some reason it seems to me that this is not the easiest task... It requires not only colossal efforts - but also obviously an already well-established, let’s say, artistic and technological school for creating such things. Which somehow doesn’t really fit in with the early Neolithic..

    1. +3
      24 October 2023 06: 03
      Quote: paul3390
      I wonder if anyone tried to use a flint tool to make a relief image like this on a stone slab?

      I'm interested in this too. But over thousands of years, the structure of the stone can change. How do we know how hard a stone was several thousand years ago? Probably, this question would be better answered by a geologist, chemist or mineralogist, because without a metal tool it is simply impossible to do this...
      1. +2
        24 October 2023 12: 48
        For the first time I come across the idea that some kind of granite gets very hard over time, being initially soft... belay That is, having been born into the light of day somewhere like a billion years ago, loose, the cobblestone sharply hardened during its 10 years of being part of the complex?? what
        1. +2
          24 October 2023 13: 27
          Quote: paul3390
          For the first time I come across the idea that some kind of granite gets very hard over time, being initially soft

          Do you have another explanation for working stone without having a special tool?
          1. +3
            24 October 2023 15: 35
            The famous Soviet geologist, paleontologist and writer Ivan Efremov has a science fiction story about how ancient Greek sculptors knew how to soften marble. And then they sculpted it into whatever they wanted. Unfortunately, I’ve already forgotten what it’s called.
            1. +2
              24 October 2023 16: 00
              Quote: Richard
              knew how to soften marble.

              Ivory! I know this story. It was in the collection THE HELLENIC SECRET.
            2. +1
              24 October 2023 21: 07
              For erupted volcanic rocks, changes in strength properties over time are, as a rule, not considered. In contrast, sedimentary rocks such as limestone or tuff change their properties over time. An example is Pudozh stone (a deposit near the village of Pudost - in the Gatchina district of the Leningrad region). At the time of extraction, the material is very soft and pliable and can be easily processed. It is relatively easy to make sculptural compositions from it. Over time, absorbing CO2 from the air, the material hardens, becoming more brittle. Unfortunately, under the influence of acid rain, the stone degrades and collapses. Therefore, only large sculptures were made and without small details. In St. Petersburg, eight statues were carved from Pudozh stone in the niches of the front courtyard of the Mikhailovsky Castle and bas-reliefs of the northern facade.
              Admiralty - sculptural groups “Sea nymphs carrying the celestial sphere”, statues “Achilles”, “Ajax”, “Pyrrhus”, “Alexander the Great”.
              In the pediments of the Exchange there are sculptural groups “Neptune with two rivers” and “Navigation with Mercury and a river”, and at the bottom of the Rostral columns there are allegorical statues, conventionally named “Neva”, “Volkhov”, “Volga”, “Dnepr”.
              1. 0
                24 October 2023 22: 58
                You see, what a thing... You can believe in technology when it is widespread. And - explainable by the level of development of society. Let's say the Romans built colossal structures, the authorship of which is beyond doubt. Because there are many of them, their purpose is clear, the level of Rome’s economy allows them to be built..

                The bas-reliefs of Gobekli Tepe are unique. Nothing similar was found in those days. The purpose is not clear at all. The level of economic development absolutely does not correspond to the scale of the structure.

                AND??? Where did these inexplicable technologies come from then and where did they go?
          2. +1
            24 October 2023 22: 25
            The Egyptians cut huge obelisks in granite with dolerite boulders, without any metal.
          3. 0
            24 October 2023 22: 52
            No. That’s why I consider the complex an artifact. But this does not mean at all that I will believe in softening the stella with lemon juice and then cutting out the bas-relief with a basalt chisel... laughing
            1. 0
              25 October 2023 07: 53
              Quote: paul3390
              precisely an artifact.

              No need! Any processed stone and bone, and sword, and even an 1896 Mauser are artifacts!
    2. 0
      24 October 2023 06: 08
      Quote: paul3390
      Of course, I’m not an expert in stone processing, but for some reason it seems to me that this is not the easiest task.

      For example, in Egyptology they try to explain the building material not as stone, but as some special type of concrete that has not survived to this day. And this explains a lot
      1. +3
        24 October 2023 06: 53
        Quote: Dutchman Michel
        and some special type of concrete,

        Folkstriks - yes. I have never heard this about Egyptologists. It's everywhere. Different. The cladding is completely granite.
        1. +3
          24 October 2023 07: 53
          Quote: kalibr
          Folkstriks - yes. I’ve never heard that about Egyptologists.

          Folk historians simply picked up the results of research into building materials by some scientists. For example, a scientist from Switzerland, Davidovich, explains the production of blocks from geopolymer concrete. Air bubbles are found in the blocks, which indicates an artificial origin. Egyptian officials do not provide a more complete analysis for obvious reasons. Real scientists just need to be allowed there!
          1. +3
            24 October 2023 07: 59
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            Real scientists just need to be allowed there!

            Who do you think this is? real scientists?
            However, I guess... wink
            1. 0
              24 October 2023 14: 28
              Real scientists just need to be allowed there!

              According to statistics, the vast majority of significant archaeological discoveries were not made by people with diplomas and credentials of real scientists. Even the recent sensational discovery of the Tyrolean ice man Ötzi was made not by certified archaeologists, but by amateur climbers.
            2. +1
              24 October 2023 14: 28
              Real scientists just need to be allowed there!

              According to statistics, the vast majority of significant archaeological discoveries were not made by people with diplomas and credentials of real scientists. Even the recent sensational discovery of the Tyrolean ice man Ötzi was made not by certified archaeologists, but by simple amateur climbers.
              1. +1
                24 October 2023 14: 42
                Quote: Richard
                According to statistics, the vast majority of significant archaeological discoveries were not made by people with diplomas

                The discovery itself is not the main thing. The main thing is to give a correct assessment of what is found
              2. +2
                24 October 2023 15: 21
                again the site duplicates comments, and judging by the news thread, I’m not the only one. request
                PS. Mikhel, the minus is not mine - I don’t put them at all, since I don’t consider them arguments in disputes.
                1. +3
                  24 October 2023 18: 46
                  Quote: Richard
                  Michel, the minus is not mine

                  I don't care about them! But my plus wink
              3. 0
                25 October 2023 07: 53
                Climbers found the frozen climber, and archaeologists determined that this was a unique find and told everyone about him.
          2. +1
            24 October 2023 09: 09
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            Real scientists just need to be allowed there!

            There were a lot of them there. Recently they finally found a papyrus that tells how the stones for the pyramids were cut down and how they were transported...
            1. +2
              24 October 2023 10: 54
              Quote: kalibr
              how the stones for the pyramids were cut and how they were transported.

              I’ll still understand how they transported it, but how they cut it down without the necessary metal and, most importantly, how they lifted it!
              1. 0
                26 October 2023 10: 58
                The Egyptians cut granite without any metal with dolerite balls https://youtu.be/lU0QSkGOdKw?si=IEqN8HXJOJ_JJEms , but moving, as an old builder told me in my youth, everything can be done by hand, the main thing is not to touch the navel, but put your head to it.
            2. +2
              24 October 2023 18: 27
              Quote: kalibr
              Recently we finally found a papyrus that says how the stones for the pyramids were cut down and how they were transported
              Surely they weren’t transported by sound propulsion with pipes and timpani? smile
            3. 0
              24 October 2023 22: 45
              how the stones for the pyramids were cut down and how they were transported...

              Are you sure that the papyrus is talking about the great pyramids? Why don't we talk about satellite pyramids?
          3. +2
            24 October 2023 09: 12
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            Egyptian officials do not provide a more complete analysis for obvious reasons.

            They even let you see the pyramids, but they don’t allow you to do an analysis. Who would ask them... No need for conspiracy theories here. I had a whole series here: WAR. GOLD, PYRAMIDS - read...
    3. +4
      24 October 2023 06: 57
      You wrote everything correctly Pavel. But... did they find stone tools? Found it! Have you found a quarry with traces of mining? Found it! Did you find any animal bones? Found it! Have you found burials of plastered skulls? Found it! All this is of its time. What does not correspond is the level of socialization. It is clearly higher than we expected. But what does this mean? Only that it was different at different times. It is still different by the way, even among people who have received higher education - ha ha. Did I say something wrong?
      1. +3
        24 October 2023 12: 55
        The level of socialization simply must correspond to the economic level. And if we see some work that requires long-term organized activity of many people, this means only one thing, the production of surplus products has reached the level of at least proto-identity. And such surpluses can only be provided by agriculture. Moreover, it is already more or less developed. Hence the conclusion - the complex could not have been built by hunter-gatherers of the early Neolithic, and even more so - the late Mesolithic. This means that the transition to a producing economy occurred earlier than is now expected. But alas, there are no traces of such a transition yet.

        PS And again - finds of certain objects near monuments cannot in any way be a source of dating the structure itself. Only - the border, later than which it could not be built. Now, if you lose your favorite smartphone, for example, on an excursion to St. Isaac's Cathedral, will archaeologists in 10 years have to conclude that the cathedral was built in the 000st century by the Chinese?
        1. +3
          24 October 2023 16: 04
          Quote: paul3390
          Will archaeologists in 10 years have to conclude that the cathedral was built in the 000st century by the Chinese?

          Do you think everyone is so stupid? There are cross-sources of information with which the findings are cross-checked. There are cultural layers... And to think like that is to study in the 5th grade!
          1. 0
            24 October 2023 22: 29
            Well, where are these types of cross layers in Gobekli Tepe?
            1. 0
              25 October 2023 07: 50
              Quote: paul3390
              Well, where are these types of cross layers in Gobekli Tepe?

              There, in Gobekli Tepe...
    4. +1
      24 October 2023 19: 08
      Well, you tried it, and? Heat-treated flint plates (after thermal treatment it is more viscous) on limestone.
      In general, even a bone would be enough for a convex bas-relief on it; there would be plenty of banal citric acid. That is, the source of lemon juice in those realities.
      And so, enthusiasts still make new-made all-stone jugs from the times of the Ancient Kingdom of Egypt.
      1. 0
        24 October 2023 22: 47
        Hmm... That is, would you undertake to repeat such a bas-relief on a stone slab with a stone chisel? Having first given him a box of lemons? Well, well... Blessed is he who believes...
  5. +2
    24 October 2023 06: 42
    a “brigade” of 12-24 people could build it in less than four months.

    The swindlers worked quickly
    1. +2
      24 October 2023 07: 31
      Quote: Tlauicol
      The swindlers worked quickly

      Motivation, you know... wink
      1. +4
        24 October 2023 09: 39
        Quote: Luminman
        Quote: Tlauicol
        The swindlers worked quickly

        Motivation, you know... wink

        It's half a liter and in Turkey it's half a liter
  6. 0
    24 October 2023 08: 13
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! hi
  7. +3
    24 October 2023 08: 31
    Further excavations will provide answers to many questions; only 5% have been excavated.
  8. +4
    24 October 2023 10: 02
    No one is embarrassed by the appearance of this object about 9 thousand years ago. The land route to North America disappeared about 11 thousand years ago. In the Andes there are also megalithic structures with images of animals. There is a feeling that the ancient builders of these objects knew about each other’s existence and tried, if not to copy, then to create something more perfect.
    There were probably more intense intercultural and trade contacts during that period than we can imagine.
    1. +3
      24 October 2023 16: 05
      Quote from Eugene Zaboy
      There were probably more intense intercultural and trade contacts during that period.

      ++++++++++++++++++++
    2. +1
      24 October 2023 16: 48
      There were probably more intense intercultural and trade contacts during that period than we can imagine.

      Without writing, no cultural contacts are possible over such distances. To cover them, the life of one generation was not enough then.
      1. 0
        24 October 2023 21: 45
        We remember stories that are more than 50 thousand years old, even African, that is, they are common to everyone.
    3. +1
      24 October 2023 19: 14
      "Convergence? No, you haven't heard!" © Erik von Däniken
    4. +1
      24 October 2023 21: 36
      These are not contacts, these are common roots, we are all from Africa, and we remember some myths from there, this was proven by the Russian scientist Yuri Berezkin, I checked and confirm.
    5. +2
      24 October 2023 23: 01
      the ancient builders of these objects knew about each other’s existence and tried, if not to copy, then to create something more perfect.

      Perhaps they simply had a common source of technology? what
  9. +3
    24 October 2023 10: 22
    Map of finds of stone structures similar to Gobekli Tepe.




    True, it was not Sheps who drew, but Joe Roe. But I don't think it's much different.
    1. +3
      24 October 2023 12: 12
      Here's another one, more detailed.

  10. +3
    24 October 2023 12: 47
    I liked the photo showing working tools in the fields; a shovel with a long vertical blade is very similar to the one that is still used in the fields to uproot plants.
  11. +1
    24 October 2023 13: 53
    Quote: kalibr
    You wrote everything correctly Pavel. But... did they find stone tools? Found it! Have you found a quarry with traces of mining? Found it! Did you find any animal bones? Found it! Have you found burials of plastered skulls? Found it! All this is of its time. What does not correspond is the level of socialization. It is clearly higher than we expected. But what does this mean? Only that it was different at different times. It is still different by the way, even among people who have received higher education - ha ha. Did I say something wrong?

    It is immediately clear that you have never been to a sect in post-Soviet times...., a huge number of people are attracted and begin to donate and work for free, with a huge potential for sentiments and good aspirations!!!!
  12. +3
    24 October 2023 14: 01
    Quote from Eugene Zaboy
    the appearance of this object about 9 thousand years ago. The land route to North America disappeared about 11 thousand years ago. In the Andes there are also megalithic structures with images of animals. There is a feeling that the ancient builders of these objects knew about each other’s existence and tried, if not to copy, then to create something more perfect.
    There were probably more intense intercultural and trade contacts during that period.

    who controls the anthill? for some reason, at the same time, different people, without saying a word, give the same names to their children? fashion and common hobbies are inherent in huge societies, and not individual for everyone.... the collective unconscious... that's what it is...
    1. +3
      24 October 2023 16: 08
      Quote: Iskander
      Do people give their children the same names without saying a word? fashion and common hobbies are inherent in huge societies

      I wrote about the possible existence of a single information field that people, and especially children, grasp in a traditional way. And cats, by the way!
  13. +2
    24 October 2023 17: 02
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Iskander
    Do people give their children the same names without saying a word? fashion and common hobbies are inherent in huge societies

    I wrote about the possible existence of a single information field that people, and especially children, grasp in a traditional way. And cats, by the way!

    Unfortunately, I didn’t come across this article of yours, but any phenomenon is always multifaceted, and it (the phenomenon) is influenced by a complex of cumulative factors, the information field is something derived from mental activity, and I’m talking about the hidden mover and director...))). Thanks for choosing the topic!
  14. +3
    24 October 2023 17: 07
    Quote from cpls22
    There were probably more intense intercultural and trade contacts during that period than we can imagine.

    Without writing, no cultural contacts are possible over such distances. To cover them, the life of one generation was not enough then.

    before the Internet there was television, before it radio, before it newspapers, before them guslars, and there have always been and will be rumors and gossip and word of mouth .... and there the transmission speeds are high)))
  15. +3
    24 October 2023 17: 33
    When far-reaching historical conclusions are drawn on the basis of several rock paintings, the Great I. Ilf and E. Petrov inevitably come to mind wassat
    1. +3
      24 October 2023 18: 49
      Quote: Amateur
      I inevitably remember the Great I. Ilf and E. Petrov

      Should we score Miki's tanks? © wink
  16. +1
    25 October 2023 10: 01
    Quote: Andobor
    Climbers found the frozen climber, and archaeologists determined that this was a unique find and told everyone about him.


    A similar situation was with the swamp mummy in Germany, where for almost six months everyone was sure that they had found one of the missing victims of a local maniac from the 1950s, they even took tests from relatives to establish the exact identity.
  17. 0
    25 October 2023 10: 47
    Quote: paul3390
    Once again, what is found in such places says nothing about the builders themselves

    Quote: AllBiBek
    primitive societies, deprived of food shortages, require sublimation. So they build all sorts of things like that.



    in my favorite sect they erected a three-story brick building in the middle of a field))), since then the priests have changed ten times, the ideology has changed from complete denial to the most terrible adaptation, and the people are 85 percent, nevertheless the building is now gradually beginning to be used...) )), and those who come again don’t give a damn about those who have left))), they need to revise their ego))))