Military Review

Attempt to revolt in the elite unit of the IDF

194
Attempt to revolt in the elite unit of the IDF



Veterans refused to stand guard and were imprisoned. The soldiers of the Dufifat (Udod) battalion were outraged by the fact that their conditions of service were almost identical to those of young soldiers and refused to step into the guard at the base in the Golan Heights. Because of this, they were jailed for 20 days. Their colleagues claim: "We just want to improve our status." A spokesman for the IDF said: "We condemn any cases of non-compliance with orders."

The Kfir Brigade again faced problems between the old-timers and the newly recruited fighters. Just a few months after a case of harassment of a young soldier in the Nachshon battalion, five soldiers of the Duhifat battalion of the same brigade were sent to prison for refusing to step into the guard at the base in the Golan Heights, this information became known on Saturday evening (1.12.2012) to the Ynet portal (Yediot newspaper Ahoronot). As far as is known, the refusal to step into the guard is connected with the non-receipt of the privileges of the old servicemen.

Before this way of protest, the battalion soldiers complained to the commander that they were not given the privileges of the old servicemen and claimed that there was almost no difference in status between them and the young soldiers of later appeals. According to their worldview, they decided not to obey orders, for which they were severely punished.


Brigade Kfir on exercises. (Photo: spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces)


The longstanding struggle of the IDF commanders against the "tradition" of the privileges of the old servicemen did not lead to the complete eradication of this phenomenon. Most regular divisions generally do not recognize the privileges of senior servicemen, with the exception of exempting demobilizing soldiers from administrative work, such as cleaning.


Brigade Commander Kfir, Colonel Udi Ben-Moh


The Kfir brigade and, in particular, Duhifat, were recently praised by the IDF command for their professional skills, and two battalions of the brigade were chosen to lead the planned ground operation in the Gaza Strip during the recent operation "Cloud Pillar". The brigade command, led by its commander, Colonel Udi Ben-Moh, has a policy of “total rejection” of non-statutory relations. In an attempt to prevent the recurrence of such incidents, the battalion commanders held unscheduled conversations with the soldiers.

“None of us have any intentions to offend or humiliate young fighters,” the battalion’s senior soldiers say. We just want to improve our status, enjoy the last period of heavy combat service. We recently completed combat service in the Ramallah area. out of guard and patrols, two and a half soldiers do the same routine work without the ability to advance or learn new skills. What happened here can easily happen in other divisions if old soldiers do not get any privileges. "

The press service of the IDF said in response to what is happening: "The Israel Defense Forces condemns any cases of non-execution of orders. In this case, five soldiers were sentenced to 20 days of imprisonment for refusing to enter guard service. All combat and administrative duties in the brigade were equally divided among all soldiers" .
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http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4314028,00.html
194 comments
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  1. andrei332809
    andrei332809 2 December 2012 11: 23 New
    18
    At first I thought by the name that the wave of insubordination had reached the Jews. but it turned out that everything is more prosaic. just like the chosen people accepted, "give me a shovel with a motor"
    1. Nevsky
      Nevsky 2 December 2012 11: 57 New
      18
      Normal army life. The news is sucked from the finger. The headline is generally typically enticing ..
      1. Gluxar_
        Gluxar_ 2 December 2012 18: 36 New
        +1
        Well, what is it like? This is a denial of oath. Not fulfilling the order.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 2 December 2012 18: 43 New
          0
          The oath is given somewhat for the other, and speaks somewhat of the other.
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 2 December 2012 21: 40 New
            +2
            .........................
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 2 December 2012 21: 44 New
              +7
              I, a citizen of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, joining the Armed Forces, take the oath and solemnly swear to be honest, brave, disciplined, watchful soldier, strictly keep military and state secrets, unconditionally fulfill all military regulations and orders of commanders and commanders.
              I swear to conscientiously study military affairs, to protect military and national property in every possible way and to be loyal to my People, my Soviet Homeland and the Soviet Government until the last breath.
              I am always ready, by order of the Soviet Government, to defend my Motherland — the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and, as a soldier of the Armed Forces, I swear to defend it courageously, skillfully, with dignity and honor, without sparing my blood and life itself to achieve complete victory over the enemies .
              If I violate my solemn oath, then let me suffer the harsh punishment of Soviet law, the general hatred and contempt of the working people. I took this oath, everything is clear and clear!
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 2 December 2012 21: 47 New
                0
                Sasha, as it were - this is what we are talking about. Just in Israel and Russia a slightly different look. For example, religious ones are forbidden to swear - they do not swear, but promise. Etc. The level of orders and refusals from them is also different.
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 2 December 2012 21: 50 New
                  +2
                  Hi Zhen, I don’t know how wild it is for me to discuss orders in a warring army.
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 2 December 2012 22: 49 New
                    0
                    Sash, before executing the order - there must be his understanding in advance.
                    I wrote about their three levels - and in the legislation of the Russian Federation there is such, as well as in the international one, otherwise the Germans would not have been tried at the Nuremberg trial - an order. You cannot justify everything by order. In Russia, unfortunately, they are used to the fact that the only answer to an order is "yes!" And this is not always the right approach. So such cases can be heaped up ...

                    At the same time, I don’t particularly justify these guys, they are, by the rules, wrong, and went to sit. But their commander is doubly wrong if it comes to trial.
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 2 December 2012 23: 00 New
                      +3
                      Zhen any officer of any army is convicted of the right to send to death, and deliberation of an order is a dangerous trend. I mean the fighting situation, and not the usual dishonesty.
                      1. Pimply
                        Pimply 2 December 2012 23: 14 New
                        0
                        Sasha, this is the misunderstanding. Going to death is a direct obligation, to kill intentionally unarmed civilians, for example, or to burn a person alive - this is a crime that is difficult to justify by order (and, by the way, does not justify it by law).
                2. aksakal
                  aksakal 3 December 2012 00: 26 New
                  0
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Sasha, as it were - this is what we are talking about. Just in Israel and Russia a slightly different look. For example, religious ones are forbidden to swear - they do not swear, but promise. Etc. The level of orders and refusals from them is also different.
                  - pimply, welcome.
                  How do you like our Soviet present? laughing This is a Soviet sore. It’s true that everything is tougher here, they could have been re-ordered, but the trouble is, those who want to leave for the historic ended at the wrong time. In those numbers, there are no people who would have noticeable further progress in this direction in improving the quality and quantity of hazing during conscription - laughing laughing
              2. Alex 241
                Alex 241 2 December 2012 21: 47 New
                0
                And the military has one status, the highest ...............................
                1. igor67
                  igor67 2 December 2012 21: 56 New
                  +3
                  alex 241,
                  Hello Sasha. it's 2.5 years ago the oath. one of these girls is my daughter. on the table a red book is the Bible. everyone goes out and takes on their creed
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 2 December 2012 22: 00 New
                    +1
                    Hi Igoryanich, Zhenya enlightened me, the difference in approach to bringing to the military oath.
                    1. igor67
                      igor67 2 December 2012 22: 04 New
                      +2
                      alex 241,
                      so I’m a good example. here is one Bible left. you promised to unsubscribe about ......... drinks
                      1. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 2 December 2012 22: 06 New
                        0
                        Igor in PM drinks
                      2. igor67
                        igor67 2 December 2012 22: 09 New
                        -1
                        alex 241,
                        You are faster than me!! drinks
                2. Green
                  Green 2 December 2012 22: 03 New
                  +1
                  Yeah, but nevertheless I swore on Tonah, although I demanded "The Origin of Species" by Charles Darwin due to atheism. But he decided not to spoil the oath itself, and not to arrange an unnecessary performance. After all, it no longer had anything to do with the army.
                  1. igor67
                    igor67 2 December 2012 22: 57 New
                    -1
                    Green,
                    My neighbor is also an atheist. Asked for the land
                    1. Green
                      Green 2 December 2012 23: 12 New
                      +2
                      I didn’t understand. Yes, this is not the point. I know that I'm a monkey. And what games are played by other primates who do not want to admit. that they are primates is not so important. It's just that this issue has little to do with the army. It is easy to be an atheist in the laboratory, revealing the scientific mechanisms of the world in peace and quiet. It is difficult to be in battle when some monkeys grind exactly the same other monkeys for purely subjective reasons, and without a single objective reason.
                    2. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 2 December 2012 23: 28 New
                      +2
                      Hey, go ahead, monkeys!

                      Or do you want to live forever?

                      Unknown sergeant. 1918 year
                    3. Green
                      Green 2 December 2012 23: 34 New
                      0
                      :) Good order. all the same, as a rule, those who recognize themselves as monkeys who have very little time on this earth to go into battle are reluctant. Or like the Romans: "Forward to eternal glory!"
                    4. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 2 December 2012 23: 37 New
                      0
                      Ilyukh, it’s better for me like that.
  • mda
    mda 2 December 2012 15: 23 New
    +3
    Quote: andrei332809
    At first I thought by the name that the wave of insubordination had reached the Jews. but it turned out that everything is more prosaic. just like the chosen people accepted, "give me a shovel with a motor"

    I also thought that there really was a rebellion, but here they wanted privileges ...
  • Gluxar_
    Gluxar_ 2 December 2012 17: 49 New
    +1
    It’s just that some Jews went too far with the reading of the Torah, and since in Israel there are not only hard Jews serving, it started ... someone was created for work, but they are untouchable. Fortunately, officers with better brains.
    1. Rumata
      Rumata 2 December 2012 21: 15 New
      -3
      Quote: Gluxar_
      It’s just that some Jews went too far with the reading of the Torah, and since in Israel there are not only hard Jews serving, it started ... someone was created for work, but they are untouchable. Fortunately, officers with better brains.

      What for paranoid delirium ?? =)))
      1. Green
        Green 2 December 2012 21: 24 New
        0
        A person has his own problems and complexes. If you do not have a professional education in the field of psychiatry, do not go. You can only aggravate :)
  • YARY
    YARY 2 December 2012 11: 24 New
    +7
    "War frightened hoopoe"
    There wasn’t enough matzo or fish didn’t deliver fish !?
    A mozhe Rifka her hemiuklih?
    Hey robots! Woo ser workshop? Ney them tohus.


    Old-timers refused ....... them conditions of service are almost identical to those of young soldiers
    However, something reminds?
    1. YARY
      YARY 2 December 2012 13: 58 New
      +4
      Look, you! Shikoka zhzhzhzhuchar site!
      1. Bykov.
        Bykov. 2 December 2012 16: 00 New
        +3
        HA HA HA. Well, just like a litmus revealer.
        Quote: Ardent
        Look, you! Shikoka zhzhzhzhuchar site!

        It acts efficiently and reveals flawlessly. A plus.
      2. slas
        slas 2 December 2012 20: 29 New
        +2
        Quote: Ardent
        Look, you! Shikoka zhzhzhzhuchar site!

        And so they redeem them)))))))))))))
  • talentedvillain
    talentedvillain 2 December 2012 11: 44 New
    11
    Well! And then everyone is crying, what a bad and cruel Army we have. Not like in Israel ... 100 pounds is not all cases ... And it pleases!
    1. mda
      mda 2 December 2012 15: 25 New
      +6
      Quote: talentedvillain
      Well! And then everyone is crying, what a bad and cruel Army we have. Not like in Israel ... 100 pounds is not all cases ... And it pleases!

      Do you mean "human rights activists" bought by the West?
      1. cherkas.oe
        cherkas.oe 2 December 2012 19: 57 New
        +3
        Quote: mda-a
        Do you mean "human rights activists" bought by the West?

        And who else?
        1. mda
          mda 3 December 2012 18: 16 New
          0
          Quote: cherkas.oe
          And who else?

          Well, I don’t know, can someone else?
      2. mda
        mda 3 December 2012 18: 18 New
        0
        By the way, who knows why they deleted 18 comments?
  • Cavas
    Cavas 2 December 2012 11: 45 New
    +1
    Attempt to revolt in the elite unit of the IDF

    After all, he wrote about this that the fighters of the IDF do not want to fight, so the "friends" from Israel almost pecked at it! laughing
    Also, there is not enough money for the war, gentlemen, Jews, is it time to live peacefully?
    Or are you now in search of another donor, who would replace the UWB or who else would load the headstock besides Germany? laughing
    1. Professor
      2 December 2012 12: 05 New
      +6
      After all, he wrote about this that the fighters of the IDF do not want to fight, so the "friends" from Israel almost pecked at it!

      It's strange, like I was translating this article, but I did not notice this there. It seemed to me that they did not want to go to outfits, to scrub either toilets in the kitchen. Thank you for enlightening. good

      PS
      You have strange ideas about "fighting".
      1. Cavas
        Cavas 2 December 2012 12: 16 New
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        It's strange, like I was translating this article, but I did not notice this there. It seemed to me that they did not want to go to outfits, to scrub either toilets in the kitchen. Thank you for enlightening.

        PS
        You have strange ideas about "fighting".

        You will probably be surprised, BUT in the army not only toilets are scuffed and go to the kitchen! wassat
        Yes, judging by your post, you were either not in the army or the outfits you had from the above! laughing

        1. Professor
          2 December 2012 12: 20 New
          +1
          Sharpen your answer to the expression "the soldiers of the Tsahal do not want to fight"and then let's talk about toilets wink
          1. Cavas
            Cavas 2 December 2012 12: 30 New
            -1
            Quote: Professor
            Sharpen your answer to the expression "the fighters of the IDF do not want to fight," and then we will talk about toilets

            First, go to the army, there they will explain to you what refusal to go to the outfit is through guardhouse, and then you will flood already! laughing

            No matter how the Jews of Israel, and indeed the whole world, shouted about the strength of Israel, the safety margin of this state is not at all great, no more than its size. laughing
            Undermining the fighting capacity of the IDF, well, to your health, anyway, you have to liberate the Palestinian territories! laughing
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 2 December 2012 12: 39 New
              0
              You are somewhat confusing the Russian army and the Israeli.

              There is a slight difference between fighting - and going to a specific outfit, say, in the kitchen or on the guard tower, in the last four months of service, since these outfits were more than enough.

              Do not indulge in trolling, because you do not know how.
              1. Cavas
                Cavas 2 December 2012 12: 57 New
                +2
                Quote: Pimply
                You are somewhat confusing the Russian army and the Israeli.

                There is a slight difference between fighting - and going to a specific outfit, say, in the kitchen or on the guard tower, in the last four months of service, since these outfits were more than enough.

                Yeshkin cat and I must explain the truths to Jews ?!
                Do I need it !? laughing
                If you do not understand simple things, drop your casuistry and join the army, no matter what! laughing
                No one has any doubt (except you and the professor) that the country's defense capability and the state of the army and navy are largely determined by the responsible attitude of the military to the performance of their duties and the level of discipline.
                Ali is different for you? laughing

                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 08 New
                  +3
                  I went, I have three years of army behind me and 9 years of reservist fees. Does it change something in my worldview - yes, it does. Because I understand when I read obvious bullshit. And this is what you are doing - scatter it with generous handfuls.
                  You perceive any refusal of the order, in any, even smallest quantities, as something catastrophic - and troll on it, joyfully and foolishly, forgive me.

                  I consider this a common everyday occurrence that exists in any army. Only in Tsakhal is this perceived as an extraordinary event, and is listed on the front page of the country's major newspapers.
                  1. Cavas
                    Cavas 2 December 2012 13: 17 New
                    -2
                    Quote: Pimply
                    I went, I have three years of army behind me and 9 years of reservist fees. Does it change something in my worldview - yes, it does. Because I understand when I read obvious bullshit.

                    And that only three years, they would write that you are a Hero of Israel-Internet, he will endure everything! laughing

                    Quote: Pimply
                    You perceive any refusal of the order, in any, even smallest quantities, as something catastrophic - and troll on it, joyfully and foolishly, forgive me.

                    With your Internet knowledge of the army, the only way you can answer! laughing

                    Quote: Pimply
                    I consider this a common everyday occurrence that exists in any army.

                    Here are your "three years of the army" and have shown themselves! wassat

                    Quote: Pimply
                    Only in Tsakhal is this perceived as an extraordinary event, and is listed on the front page of the country's major newspapers.

                    Refute yourself!
                    No, all the same casuistry in your blood! good
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 23 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Cavas
                      And that only three years, they would write that you are a Hero of Israel-Internet, he will endure everything!


                      Am I supposed to be foolish? Now, apparently, do I need to beat myself in the chest and prove something? Who do you want? Not the most talented troll? Pliz, do not tell me.

                      And you can wave your hands once again also funny, it's funny. I beg. If the circus, then somehow more active.
              2. Professor
                2 December 2012 12: 59 New
                +3
                You are somewhat confusing the Russian army and the Israeli.

                He does not confuse anything - there was simply nothing clever to say, so he blurted out. fool
              3. OSTAP BENDER
                OSTAP BENDER 2 December 2012 13: 57 New
                0
                Pimply,
                Quote: Pimply
                Do not indulge in trolling, because you do not know how.

                Yeah, where are we sinners to you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 2 December 2012 14: 01 New
                  0
                  I do not troll, I state the facts, dear. Well, you just clumsily hate.
            2. Professor
              2 December 2012 12: 58 New
              +3
              Blah blah blah. You are always in your own way. Talk nonsense like this "IDF fighters do not want to fight",, and then to flood. So keep it up. good
              1. Cavas
                Cavas 2 December 2012 13: 01 New
                -1
                Quote: Professor
                Blah blah blah. You are, as always, in your own key. Blabber off nonsense like this "the fighters of the IDF do not want to fight," and then flood. Keep it up.

                Nonsense only heard from you, do not be offended, but this is so with your flood!

                You can continue to swear! laughing
                1. Professor
                  2 December 2012 13: 19 New
                  +3
                  Unlike you, I fought and I know well how the ability to clean toilets and clean the parade ground affects the combat effectiveness of the army, especially when it is done instead of combat training. However, you do not understand this. request
                  1. Cavas
                    Cavas 2 December 2012 13: 27 New
                    -3
                    Quote: Professor
                    Unlike you, I fought and I know well how the ability to clean toilets and clean the parade ground affects the combat effectiveness of the army, especially when it is done instead of combat training. However, you do not understand this.

                    So how did you defeat the toilet? laughing
                    Of course I don’t understand, I didn’t "fight" in toilets! wassat


              2. Pimply
                Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 10 New
                +2
                You see, prof, comrade mindlessly trolls, reveling in the type of "smart" statements. Don't just feed him - we won't hear anything intelligible there anyway.
      2. sapulid
        sapulid 2 December 2012 13: 55 New
        +2
        Prof., the other day I spoke with the guys from Israel about military service. All of them served and had a step admission to the highest (the highest, this is intelligence, but there only according to the dynasties, according to their words), but they all denied dembelism in the Israeli army. Memories of the army are the warmest, despite the service at the forefront. Maybe now, after 7 years, what has changed? By the way, I was surprised to learn that the preferences from the service are minimal, with the exception of the possibility of working in the civil service depending on the admission.

        They fled from Israel because of the draft age of their children, who were eager for the front line as well as their fathers. I do not blame them, because our children are the most precious in life.
        1. Professor
          2 December 2012 13: 58 New
          -10
          Cases of hazing are sporadic and nipped in the bud. Spread about this article.
          1. Karish
            Karish 2 December 2012 20: 43 New
            +4
            Quote: Professor
            Cases of hazing are sporadic and nipped in the bud

            The Israeli army has a lot to learn about relations between soldiers and officers.
            An example from life.
            Denis, nephew, served already 2.5 years out of 3. His father and I are sitting like this, celebrating something. Here on the weekend * the military man returns from the army, all tense and gloomy.
            Well, we are already in a good mood,
            - Sergeant come here, fell down, wrung out what is
            He (serves in the Air Force, the barracks - rooms for 2, 3, a TV set, a DVD, a shower) says his friend is demobilized, they must add some kind of spirit to him (in our concept), + so he doesn’t know what to do, suddenly he (the spirit) will interfere with him in every way, listen to music loudly or smoke in the room
            Well, we him, you like what. he is a spirit, must rustle, let the room clean and wash socks. it is supposed to be of type according to the service life.
            To which they received an answer that led us into a complete stupor.
            Denis (at first without cutting at all about what we are talking about) says and what is it (the spirit) to blame that his mother later gave birth?
            And thank God that it is (IN THE IDF) so.
            1. sapulid
              sapulid 2 December 2012 21: 53 New
              +3
              Damn, Karish, word for word, I heard this story Do you have that memorization of legends in case of captivity? :)
              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 2 December 2012 21: 55 New
                +1
                Sasha about a month ago on one of the branches voiced it for me.
              2. Karish
                Karish 2 December 2012 22: 16 New
                0
                Quote: sapulid
                Damn, Karish, word for word, I heard this story Do you have that memorization of legends in case of captivity? :)

                Yes, I wrote it. just copied from a comment 2 months ago. Overwrite again laughing
          2. Insurgent
            Insurgent 2 December 2012 21: 12 New
            -1
            Yes, there was a case at an air force base in Israel. Soldiers broke a car. An officer gave them a comment for which and paid with a broken arm.
            1. Yarbay
              Yarbay 2 December 2012 22: 27 New
              +1
              Quote: Insurgent
              Yes, there was a case at an air force base in Israel. Soldiers broke a car. An officer gave them a comment for which and paid with a broken arm.

              This is not good!!
              In principle, do not count for advertising, I’ve just thought about it, probably the only army in the world where it is impossible to imagine that an officer disobeys a soldier is the Turkish army !!
              Take a word, if the commander orders them to jump off a cliff, they will jump!
              1. Green
                Green 2 December 2012 22: 32 New
                +1
                I think this is either a legend, or these soldiers spent at least the following year in prison for beating an officer. The Turkish army is undeniably the most combat-ready unit in NATO's structure, with the exception of the US Force. Any speculation on this topic from the evil one.
                1. Yarbay
                  Yarbay 2 December 2012 22: 53 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Verde
                  I think this is either a legend, or these soldiers spent at least the following year in prison for beating an officer.

                  I believe this more !!
                  I’m just not saying that the Turkish army is the strongest, it’s just that the authority of the officer is huge !!
                  I remember one albai (colonel) drove us after a buffet to the hotel and was a little tipsy!
                  The road was not close, the police stopped us, when they saw his officer’s crust, they took him under the visor and accompanied us to the hotel!
                  I know the attitude to the army in Israel is very high, but I didn’t visit you and I didn’t feel it !! I felt among the Turks how they love the Motherland and they simply say the officer’s word like the word of their father !! It’s very nice to walk in the street there! !
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 2 December 2012 23: 16 New
                    +1
                    It’s just that in Turkey the army is the elite, and in Israel the family. Boring, boring, but whose value and love for which you understand in especially difficult moments
                    1. Karish
                      Karish 3 December 2012 07: 58 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Pimply
                      It’s just that in Turkey the army is the elite, and in Israel the family. Boring, boring, but whose value and love for which you understand in especially difficult moments

                      Yes, here is probably the most correct comparison that I have heard. (Respect, the writer, he is the writer !!!!!!!!!).
                      As in any family, it has troubled children, and the parents are the same. But she remains a family and so she is perceived in Israel. The army - this is a sacred cow - attitude to the soldier, probably differs at the genetic level. Summoning Day is a holiday for the family, military service (especially in combat units) is the pride of parents. The son / daughter of an officer raises the authority of the father to a completely different level.
                      This is all completely different - you can’t compare - I remember that we (the soldiers) who were taken out to dig a trench under the sewers, the local people looked like a crowd of Holodroots, whose only desire was to stash something. In the USSR, civilians somehow feared the soldiers. probably because they never knew what to expect from them. (Maybe of course not everywhere, but this is purely my impression).
                      It is impossible to compare incomparable things - Correctly in Israel, the army is a family, and soldiers are children, children of all Israel. This is not pathos, believe me, it is.
                    2. Yarbay
                      Yarbay 3 December 2012 17: 16 New
                      0
                      Quote: Pimply
                      It’s just that in Turkey the army is the elite, and in Israel the family. Boring, boring, but whose value and love for which you understand in especially difficult moments

                      Although it’s hard for me to compare, there’s probably something in it, although the attitude of the officers towards the soldiers in Turkey reminded me of the relationship of a strict father to his son !!
                      1. sapulid
                        sapulid 3 December 2012 18: 10 New
                        0
                        May I have an example of your supervision of the Turkish Army?
                      2. Yarbay
                        Yarbay 3 December 2012 19: 11 New
                        0
                        Quote: sapulid

                        May I have an example of your supervision of the Turkish Army?

                        What do you mean??
                        I have never overseen anyone !!
                        Studied, studied!
              2. Pimply
                Pimply 2 December 2012 22: 54 New
                0
                Not a legend, recently there were news feeds. A dirty story, the guys are outright criminals, and went to sit.
            2. Alex 241
              Alex 241 2 December 2012 22: 38 New
              +1
              Alibek is glad to see whether I continue to know the truth or not, but it seems like the truth, the Turkish pilots were trained at the US Air Force base, one of them had an engine failure in the air, the flight master gave the command to the Turkish pilot to eject, all the Turkish pilots jumped out, and four of them absolutely operational aircraft.
              1. Thunderbolt
                Thunderbolt 2 December 2012 22: 47 New
                +2
                Tugarin-zmey April 4, 2012 10:41
                4





                Turks are still those pilots.
                The following story was told at one of the US Air Force bases. Once in Florida, future pilots of the Turkish Air Force learned to fly. One of them had an engine stalled in flight, and he reported this to the base in a tragic voice. The answer was immediate: "Turkish student, bail out!" EVERY Turkish pilot who heard this bailed out! On that day, the United States lost six A-4 Skyhawk. One with a stalled engine and five absolutely serviceable ..
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 2 December 2012 22: 50 New
                  +2
                  Hi Lesh, thanks for clarifying good
                2. Green
                  Green 2 December 2012 22: 51 New
                  +4
                  I think this is just a fairy tale. "Turkish student, bail out!" So orders are not given. Number such and such a catapult. What are these "Turkish student" appeals? So the dispatcher is not addressed.
                  1. Alex 241
                    Alex 241 2 December 2012 22: 57 New
                    0
                    In a stressful situation, I think the Turks could simply switch to their native language, which naturally the RP did not know, I think it was there so he shouted an engin stop without indicating a call sign, but this is just an assumption.
                    1. Yarbay
                      Yarbay 2 December 2012 23: 11 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Alex 241
                      In a stressful situation, I think the Turks could simply switch to their native language, which naturally the RP did not know, I think it was there so he shouted an engin stop without indicating a call sign, but this is just an assumption.

                      I will tell you such a situation in the city of Igdir there is a stone in memory of the pilot who did not catapult because of a friend, or rather a student who stuck something !! They were buried together, I can clarify !!
                      Dear Alexander, I understand that people are different, but I assure you, I can’t imagine that a Turkish officer would be scared before the soldiers and lose his authority !!
                      I do not believe!
                    2. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 2 December 2012 23: 20 New
                      +1
                      .............. such examples are scarce
                    3. Yarbay
                      Yarbay 2 December 2012 23: 36 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Alex 241
                      examples are scarce

                      It also seems to me that the bike, they have it very strictly with this!
                      Courts of honor and you are disgraced for life !!
                      they have adopted such a fire of confidence, here the officer suggests that his soldiers move away, but no one leaves!
                      The trust is great to the commanders, I like this clip!
                    4. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 2 December 2012 23: 40 New
                      +2
                      Alibek, strongly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! good
                    5. Green
                      Green 2 December 2012 23: 47 New
                      +2
                      This is already dangerous mischief.

                      Alibek, by the way, if you know something, but how is the situation changing in connection with repressions against the army by the Islamic leadership? And to clarify, as far as I know, Azerbaijanis are mostly Shiites, and Turks are Sunnis if I am not mistaken, although both of them are unconditional. But does this leave any imprint on the relationship between the elites?
                    6. Yarbay
                      Yarbay 2 December 2012 23: 55 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Verde
                      This is already dangerous mischief.

                      They constantly train on it ,,, it began with burgundy berets, but then the mountain commando and generally in all combat units was accepted!
                      I'll try to find another video now
                    7. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 2 December 2012 23: 59 New
                      +2
                      One type of uniting a unit, trusting your partner, Alpha and Pennant has such an exercise.
                    8. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 3 December 2012 00: 03 New
                      +1
                      ..................................
                    9. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 3 December 2012 00: 23 New
                      +1
                      ............................
                    10. Pimply
                      Pimply 3 December 2012 00: 24 New
                      -2
                      Sasha, here is no need Kadochnikova, Bronnikova, Lavrov - the latter, by the way, in the video. Beautiful tales of it.
                    11. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 3 December 2012 00: 30 New
                      +1
                      and where are the tales? ordinary physics, elementary school course.
                    12. Rumata
                      Rumata 3 December 2012 01: 34 New
                      0
                      Quote: Alex 241
                      fairy tales? ordinary physics, elementary school course.

                      I am sure that in the GRU, for example, are top-class pros, but the Kadochnikovs and others like them are nonsense for young people who are not getting stronger. Of course, they have a lot of theoretical stuff, creases, elements of leverage, but all these commercials are banal advertisements. One American from the first video is worth something ... who is actually a student of the Institute of Friendship of Peoples ... Any martial art is good, strengthens the mind and body, but the feed itself is populist, and it harms more than does any good.
                    13. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 3 December 2012 01: 46 New
                      +4
                      Dear, I am far from propaganda of this populist delirium, but a sound grain can be gleaned, because denying everything is a dead end. I’m closer to the principle, soak up everything useful like a sponge. Moreover, this is clearly a system for the pros, not the average person who sees a knife will fall into a stupor, the best remedy is legs .......... Especially if you noticed we started with psychological preparation, com under the clip of Alibek.

                      personally it is closer to me. simple and intelligible.
                    14. Rumata
                      Rumata 3 December 2012 02: 10 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Alex 241
                      It is simple and intelligible.

                      Here he is, a real pro. Without any pathos and pretense, in the case. And how he coaches youth for free is worthy of respect.


                      Personally, I respect him very much, and as for me one such MUZHIK costs ten Kadochnikov
                    15. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 3 December 2012 02: 18 New
                      +1
                      There are more theorists, and this is a pure practitioner, I treat him with great respect for what is called self-made man!
                  2. Light
                    Light 3 December 2012 03: 37 New
                    +1
                    Badyuk really shows what helps really.
                    Eyes, throat, testicles are the most vulnerable and non-pumped areas of the body.
                    Methods of impact on the hand are good only if it is relaxed, and the hand relaxes mainly from hitting the testicles. Such a vicious circle))

                    I found here a video about the fight of the Super-Master of contactless battle and some dude from MMA.
                    As a result of the battle, the Master was brutally declassified, he obviously had to then collect his teeth in the fist, simultaneously pouring blood from the broken snobel on the floor))

                    In general, admire:



                    The same, but from a different angle:

                  3. Yarbay
                    Yarbay 3 December 2012 17: 24 New
                    -1
                    Here is something like this, wrestler and 4 dan in Aikido !!
                    Tales of fairy tales, reality is cruel)))
          3. Yarbay
            Yarbay 3 December 2012 00: 38 New
            +1
            Quote: Pimply
            Sasha, here is no need Kadochnikova, Bronnikova, Lavrov - the latter, by the way, in the video. Beautiful tales of it.

            Honestly, with all due respect to Alexander and the Russian army, there’s also a special part, but these shots didn’t cause me confidence either !!
            As my very first commander said, the best karate is a hundred-meter race in 10 seconds)))))))))
          4. Alex 241
            Alex 241 3 December 2012 00: 46 New
            +1
            My said: a stunning blow to the crotch, after his favorite saying: nothing decorates army boots like an elegant curvature of the legs.
          5. Yarbay
            Yarbay 3 December 2012 01: 05 New
            0
            Quote: Alex 241
            My said: a stunning blow to the crotch, after his favorite saying: nothing decorates army boots like an elegant curvature of the legs.

            Super)))) I will remember)))))))))))
          6. Alex 241
            Alex 241 3 December 2012 01: 12 New
            +2
            Here's another one: Comrade cadet, what time does the Time program begin? At 21.00, Comrade Major ....... Why? I can’t know .......... I do not ask why it starts at 21.00, I ask why it is not on the program Time .........
          7. Yarbay
            Yarbay 3 December 2012 01: 15 New
            0
            Quote: Alex 241
            Here's another one: Comrade cadet, what time does the Time program begin? At 21.00, Comrade Major ....... Why? I can’t know .......... I do not ask why it starts at 21.00, I ask why it is not on the program. Time ........

            My company’s favorite saying was, when someone does something, the country needs heroes, p ... and gives birth to fools))))))))))))))
          8. Alex 241
            Alex 241 3 December 2012 01: 19 New
            +1
            To paraphrase a little: Put a barrier, or sensible major !!!!!!!!!!!! (suitable for all occasions) and one more thing: What do you look at me, the face is unshaven like a five-year-old child.
  • Green
    Green 3 December 2012 00: 34 New
    +2
    contactless battle is on ren tv :)
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 3 December 2012 00: 46 New
    +1
    Ilyukh, contactless is a delirium of the inflamed imagination.
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 3 December 2012 00: 04 New
    0
    Quote: Verde
    Alibek, by the way, if you know something, but how is the situation changing in connection with repressions against the army by the Islamic leadership? And to clarify, as far as I know, Azerbaijanis are mostly Shiites, and Turks are Sunnis if I am not mistaken, although both of them are unconditional. But does this leave any imprint on the relationship between the elites?

    The army is very dissatisfied, there basically the average officers are much more radical than the generals !!
    There last year, in protest, the entire command of the army, the entire General Staff resigned !!
    They are very united !!!! How to explain, they are like a separate republic !!
    I think they would have thrown off this government if they had not been afraid of sanctions from Europe !! They didn’t get just the go-ahead !!
    For them, Homeland is most important, that’s what they put up with, it seems to me like that!
    In Turkey and Azerbaijan, people are very loyal to both Sunnis and Shiites! We have the majority of Shiites, but the attitude towards Sunnis is the same as for everyone!
    The same situation in Turkey, but there are more Sunnis.
    And the elites are not pious at all!
  • Green
    Green 3 December 2012 00: 41 New
    0
    Thank you, Alibek. The fact that the elites in Turkey and Azerbaijan are secular is of course the merit of the Soviet system in Az. And Ataturk in Turkey. He did a lot to transform Turkey from a backward country into an advanced technologically advanced state by the standards of the Middle East. Just when I watch what is happening now. it seems that the rabid Islamists will "screw up" all the bright undertakings of Kemal and lead to a decline in education, and then to the decline of the state.
  • tekinoral
    tekinoral 3 December 2012 01: 26 New
    +1
    Green,
    ... Just when I watch what is happening now. it seems that the rabid Islamists will "screw up" all the bright undertakings of Kemal and lead to a decline in education, and then to the decline of the state.
    In Turkey, most people love Ataturk very much, no one dares to remove him
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 3 December 2012 17: 39 New
    0
    Quote: Verde
    Just when I watch what is happening now. it seems that the rabid Islamists will "screw up" all the bright undertakings of Kemal and lead to a decline in education, and then to the decline of the state.

    Children with mother’s milk in Turkey absorb love for Ataturk! Many years of propaganda in one day will not change!
    Turks associate love for Ataturk with love for their homeland!
    Therefore, this love cannot be killed
    The photo shows veterans on the day of Ataturk!
    Disabled person in a wheelchair, who received medals and injuries in the fight against terrorists at the sound of a siren in Honor of Ataturk and the beginning of a minute of silence and reverence, gets up !!
    I think it says a lot!
  • sapulid
    sapulid 3 December 2012 18: 15 New
    0
    That is, do you believe in the cowardice of another nation, but not the one to which you belong? Can i ask you? Human courage is determined by nationality? If not, are you a nationalist?
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 3 December 2012 19: 09 New
    -1
    Quote: sapulid
    That is, do you believe in the cowardice of another nation, but not the one to which you belong? Can i ask you? Human courage is determined by nationality? If not, are you a nationalist?

    Read carefully!
  • Green
    Green 2 December 2012 23: 24 New
    +2
    The devil knows him, but looks more like a bike. although life is surprising in that occasions happen. About Saudi pilots (almost all polls are members of the royal family and especially close, unlike Israel, where the most capable of such work) are the most curious legends, I think half of them are true. That's where the flyers are outstanding. the funny thing is that the combined fleet, CA and AOE is greater than Israel. And with such forces, they could raze Iran with the land exclusively on their own. But the United States is asking for this and will eat up on Israel. Apparently they themselves understand their combat flying potential.
  • Rumata
    Rumata 3 December 2012 01: 43 New
    +1
    Quote: Verde
    That's where the flyers are outstanding. the funniest thing is that the combined fleet, CA and AOE exceeds Israeli

    You must have made a mistake, the fleet of modern Israeli air force fighters is more than twice that of the SA and the UAE ...
  • Green
    Green 3 December 2012 02: 09 New
    +1
    Israeli Air Force: about 60 F-15, +25 F-15 SE, and about 250 F-16 all modifications.
    Air Force SA about 150 F-15 of all modifications, + 25 Typhoons + 100 Tornado
    AOE Air Force about 80 F-16 and about 70 Mirage 2000.
    Well, Qatar also has a dozen mirages on a gimbal. I do not see any double superiority of Israel. Plus, possible contracts for the supply of F-15SE Silent Eagle and F-35 Saudis announced to buy more than Israel.
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 3 December 2012 02: 34 New
    +1
    F-15A / B Eagle 40/6 Interceptors \ Training USA
    F-15C / D Eagle 16/11 Interceptors \ Training USA
    F-15I Eagle 25 US Fighter Bomber
    F-16A / B 90/17 Fighter-bombers \ Training USA
    F-16C / D 75/47 Fighter-bombers \ Training USA
    Kfir C.7 / TC.7 50 Fighter Bomber \ Training Local
    F-4E/F-4E-2000/RF-4E/F-4E(S) (40)/53/10/2 Ударные\Разведывательные США
    A-4N Skyhawk 90 US attack aircraft
    TA-4H / J Skyhawk 20 Training USA
    CM170 Magister / Zukit 40 Training Your Own \ France \ Germany
    PA-18 Super Cub 35 Initial Training USA
    Boeing 707-320/Phalcon 2/2/2 РЭБ США
    E-2C Hawkeye 3 DRL USA
    IAI-201 Arava 9/10 Transport of its own
    KC-130H 4 United States Tankers
    Boeing 707-320 4/5 Tankers \ US AFP Aircraft
    Super King Air 200 4 Connected United States
    RU-21A / RC-12D / K King Air 2/7 EW USA
    Queen Air 80 12 Liaison / Training USA
    SOCATA TB 20 Trinidad 22 Connected France
    Dornier Do 28B 10 Patrol Germany
    IAI 1124N Seascan 3 Base Patrol Own
    AH-64A Apache 42 Attack Helicopters USA
    AH-1F / S Cobra 40 Attack Helicopters USA
    H500MD Defender several connected \ training USA
    C-130E / H Hercules 6/10/2 Transportation USA
    CH-53 / CH-53-2000 Sea Stallion 40 Transport USA
    Agusta-Bell 212 35 Transport / Rescue Italy
    UH-60A / UH-60D Blackhawk 10/15 Transport USA
    AB206B / Bell 206L 24/8 Connected \ Training Italy \ United States
    AS.565SA Panther 8 Navy Support
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 3 December 2012 02: 36 New
    +1
    Israeli Air Force

    Squadron Type LA Base
    Interceptors \ Attack
    101 AE $ F-16C / D Block 40 Hatzor
    104 AE F-16A / B Nevatim
    105 AE $ F-16C / D Block 40 Hatzor
    109 AE F-16D Block 30 Ramat David
    110 AE F-16C / D Block 30 Ramat David
    117 AE F-16C / D Block 30 Ramat David
    132 (P) AE Kfir C.7 / TC.7 Nevatim
    140 AE F-16A / B Ramon
    144 AE F-16A / B Hatzor
    147 AE F-16A / B Ramon
    149 (P) AE Kfir C.7 / TC.7 Hatzor
    253 AE F-16A / B Ramon
    Fighter bomber
    69 AE F-15I Hatzerim
    107 AE * F-4E / RF-4E Hatzerim
    119 AE F-4E-2000 Tel Nof
    142 (P) AE F-4E Hatzerim
    201 AE F-4E-2000 Tel Nof
    Interceptors
    106 AE F-15C / D Tel Nof
    133 AE F-15A / B Tel Nof
    148 (P) AE F-15A / B Tel Nof
    Assault
    102 AE A-4N Hatzerim
    111 AE F-16A / B Nevatim
    115 AE F-16A / B Nevatim
    116 AE F-16A / B Nevatim
    129 (P) AE A-4N Hatzerim
    137 (P) AE A-4N Ovda
    141 (P) AE A-4N Nevatim
    145 (P) AE A-4N Ovda
    202 (P) AE A-4N Ovda
    Fire support helicopters
    113 AE AH-64A Ramon
    127 AE AH-64A Ramon
    160 AE AH-1F / S Palmachim
    161 AE AH-1F / S Palmachim
    190 AE AH-64A Ramon
    Helicopter Transport
    114 AE CH-53 Tel Nof
    118 AE CH-53 Tel Nof
    Transport \ Rescue Helicopter
    123 AE Agusta-Bell 212 Hatzerim
    124 AE UH-60A / D Palmachim
    193 AE AS.565 Panther Palmachim
    Division 669 (Coast Guard Units) CH-53 / AB.212 / UH-60% Tel Nof
    EW
    134 AE Boeing 707-ELINT Airport Ben Gurion Lod
    191 AE RC-12D / K / King Air 200 Sde Dov
    Transportation
    103 AE C-130 Ben Gurion Lod Airport
    120 AE Boeing 707 / KC-707 Ben Gurion Lod Airport
    122 AE Arava 202 Ben Gurion Lod Airport
    126 AE Arava 202 Ben Gurion Lod Airport
    131 AE & C-130 Ben Gurion Lod Airport
    Connected \ Auxiliary
    100 AE TB 20 Trinidad Sde Dov
    125 AE AB 206B / Bell 206L Sde Dov
    128 AE Beech Queen Air Sde Dov
    135 AE Do 28B Sde Dov
    Basic patrol
    195 AE IAI 1124N Seascan Airport Ben Gurion Lod
    Test
    151 AE various rockets Palmachim
    601 AE / MANAT various Tel Nof aircraft
    Training
    130 (P) AE # AB206 Hatzerim
    162 (P) AE # H500MD / AH-1 Hatzerim
    247 (P) AE # C-12 / Do 28B Hatzerim
    252 (P) AE # TA-4H / J Hatzerim
    Flight School / BIST CM-170 / PA-18 Hatzerim
    Separate links of PA-18 Sde Kedem Flight School
    505 AE ultralights Tel Nof
    505 AE link Meglight's ultralights
    505 AE link ultralights Ein Shemer
    Supporting Units
    146 (P) AE UAV Samson / Delilah Ramon
    150 AE OTR Jericho Sdot Micha
    155 AE UAV Samson / Delilah Hatzerim
    194 AE UAV Firebee / Teledyne 324 Palmachim
    199 AE OTR Jericho Sdot Micha
    200 AE UAV Scout / Hunter / Searcher Palmachim
    248 AE OTR Jericho
  • Green
    Green 3 December 2012 02: 45 New
    0
    On the whole set of factors (preparation, quality of breo, DROLO, etc.) the Israeli Air Force is superior to the Arabian Air Force as the Russian Air Force is superior to the Ugandan Air Force. But in terms of the number of fighters, there is no superiority to Israel.
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 3 December 2012 02: 49 New
    +1
    Ilyukh with your length, there is no place for a fighter to disperse, the second is based on the principle of reasonable sufficiency, and you don’t have clean fighters, I would call them multifunctional, the main work on the ground.
  • Green
    Green 3 December 2012 03: 02 New
    0
    In principle, I am generally skeptical of fighters and fighter vs fighter fights. In my opinion, rocket technologies and control systems reach such a level that the speed of the sky will be cleared by slow-moving groups that are not at all maneuverable from Avaks and Lancers with long-range missiles. If they see you beyond 800 km and land missiles capable of capturing targets and maneuvering up to 50G then what the hell are you going to do? Most of the success in air operations belongs to Avax. And the fact that the territory is small is one plus, air defense systems are able to pull the network throughout the country. But, Sash, who argues, it is certainly better to be healthy and rich than poor and sick. Across the afterburner fighter crosses all of Israel in 2 minutes. What are we talking about. It remains only to eat up on intelligence and fucking reptiles before they take off.
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 3 December 2012 03: 13 New
    0
    Therefore, the fighter’s priority is always the DRLO.A plane, and nobody can ever cancel the dog fighting, it’s an axiom. And against the rockets, you know, there are a lot of nuances, as they say, if you can get shot down, then you are them.

    .....................................
  • Green
    Green 3 December 2012 03: 23 New
    0
    You can shoot down if there are the same perfect radars and the same long-range missiles. And only so. More and more soldiers are not fighting, but engineers. And Israeli engineers will defeat Saudi engineers due to the complete absence of the latter :)
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 3 December 2012 03: 26 New
    +1
    You know, you should never underestimate the enemy, we just walked up there, in fact, everything is more complicated.
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 3 December 2012 03: 35 New
    0
    .................................................. ..............................
    .....
  • Green
    Green 3 December 2012 03: 43 New
    +1
    Yes, at 73 underestimation of the Arabs cost dearly. in this case, it’s definitely better to stay long. :)
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 3 December 2012 03: 50 New
    +1
    here I am talking about too, look, but like peasants with hoes.
  • Green
    Green 3 December 2012 02: 52 New
    +1
    By the way, I believe that most F-16s have been modified to F-16 sufa + and in terms of avionics quality and capabilities it is almost a new aircraft.
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 3 December 2012 02: 57 New
    +1
    .................................
  • Green
    Green 3 December 2012 03: 17 New
    +1
    Yes, yes sufas. By the way, these humps on the sides - conformal fuel tanks are not an obligatory hallmark of a sufa. There are sufas without them. But plus one more advantage of Israel - advanced electronic warfare systems that can effectively suppress enemy radars. And those literacy and ingenuity (which could compensate for this factor) of the Arabs can not be compared with those literacy and ingenuity of Soviet air defense calculations. And there will be no war between the Arabians and Israel. It was not for this that they built golden palaces so that the Israelites would level them with the earth. They will dirty the little things surrounding the terror.
  • Alex 241
    Alex 241 3 December 2012 03: 23 New
    0
    In my opinion, the main emphasis you have on ground-based air defense systems, Aviation, how to say ............ special operations forces. Such air special forces.
  • terp 50
    terp 50 3 December 2012 07: 52 New
    0
    ... like the Americans. Give such a command! .. Well this is what kind of head (?) You need to have ...
  • donchepano
    donchepano 3 December 2012 11: 06 New
    0
    Thunderbolt,
    ON THIS DAY USA LOST SIX A - 4

    WHAT PLEASANT INFORMATION FOR THE EAR OF RUSSIANS :))
    READ IT FOR US FREQUENTLY AND MORE ...
    YOU +++++++
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 2 December 2012 23: 00 New
    0
    Quote: Alex 241
    Alibek is glad to see whether I continue to know the truth or not, but it seems like the truth, the Turkish pilots were trained at the US Air Force base, one of them had an engine failure in the air, the flight master gave the command to the Turkish pilot to eject, all the Turkish pilots jumped out, and four of them absolutely operational aircraft.

    If this is not a joke, then it also says a lot !!
    I say what I saw !! Fulfillment of the order is an initial task for them and unchallenged !! The officers are strict with the soldiers, but, if possible, take paternal care !! The officer will never raise his hand against the soldier !!
    They created an officer caste as if !! They made the elite of society from officers!
    Usually, as before in the USSR, in Russia, their officers are very educated, intelligent, competent !!
    I saw in the exercises how Americans from ATGM and can’t get into the tank))))
    three could not)) ATGM was trophy!)))
    Only the Turks could not move away from the ATGM system to the required distance !!))
    1. Alex 241
      Alex 241 2 December 2012 23: 05 New
      +1
      ...................................
      1. igor67
        igor67 2 December 2012 23: 18 New
        0
        alex 241,
    2. Green
      Green 2 December 2012 23: 29 New
      +4
      Napoleon forbade the beating of soldiers. shoot yes. But to beat in no case. a humiliated, battered soldier who has lost self-esteem is no longer a soldier.
  • sapulid
    sapulid 3 December 2012 18: 08 New
    0
    Yarbay, let me disagree. A lot of deserters from the Turkish army live in my city. We often intersect, therefore, I know what I'm saying. It seems to me that the DPRK and PRC armies are more consistent. No offense to the Turks.
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay 3 December 2012 19: 43 New
      -1
      Quote: sapulid
      Yarbay, let me disagree. A lot of deserters from the Turkish army live in my city. We often intersect, therefore, I know what I'm saying. It seems to me that the DPRK and PRC armies are more consistent. No offense to the Turks.

      Yes, for God's sake, dear!
      You can have your opinion, your opinion!
      I do not believe in deserters, military service is very honorable in Turkey and among the Turks!
      There may be deviators, these are mainly rich people! They pay money not to serve and live mainly abroad!
      Such tales often tell about Kurds and Armenians about Turkey, posing as Turks!
      The Armenians living in Turkey have almost all Turkish names and surnames, as well as the Kurds!
      You can ask Koreans about Turkish soldiers and their abilities !!
    2. Yarbay
      Yarbay 3 December 2012 23: 14 New
      0
      Quote: sapulid
      A lot of deserters from the Turkish army live in my city.


      This you tell these Turks!
      This is a video of farewell to a lieutenant killed by terrorists in one of the cities of Turkey!
      So there are always farewell ceremonies!
      I can show you dozens of such videos!
      To die and fight for the motherland there is considered to be happiness !!
  • Pimply
    Pimply 2 December 2012 14: 04 New
    0
    Firstly, what is meant by hazing is a question. Compared to Russia, there is no hazing. But it’s real - it is in combat units to a certain extent, as a rule, expressed in the amount of work and exits home.

    As for the service - now they are constantly increasing allowances for demobilization and all sorts of benefits.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 2 December 2012 12: 07 New
    +2
    Below, I explained the reasons in more detail. They don’t want to fight, they don’t really want to carry out specific duties such as standing on a tower, which they completed over almost three years - nowhere else to go.
    1. Joker
      Joker 2 December 2012 14: 08 New
      14
      To summarize the discussion that I deleted, I want to say the following. And I have a meter soldier that's what she looked like laughing Individuals who do not obey orders are in any army, but it’s significant how they fight this, we take it for granted, but in Israel they spend 10 days on 20, to be honest, I envy them in this regard, it’s also time for us to return the guardhouse back.
      1. YARY
        YARY 2 December 2012 14: 27 New
        11
        With a compliment Oleg!
        Lip is a holy thing! How is that? Serve and not sit on a guardhouse, all the same that he did not serve!
        1. Joker
          Joker 2 December 2012 14: 41 New
          +6
          Hi hi
          It is necessary to educate young people so that they know that punishment will follow violations, otherwise they sit there, they want to do it, and they go to the same position with a civilian, they must instill a sense of responsibility in advance. I once sat on the lip of identity too laughing not dead repeat
          1. Cavas
            Cavas 2 December 2012 15: 52 New
            +4
            Quote: Ardent
            Lip is a holy thing! How is that? Serve and not sit on a guardhouse, all the same that he did not serve!

            I agree with your post, plus definitely! hi
        2. Ascetic
          Ascetic 3 December 2012 00: 39 New
          +5
          Quote: Ardent
          Lip is a holy thing! How is that? Serve and not sit on a guardhouse, all the same that he did not serve!


          He earned seven days of arrest for not giving military greetings from the deputy commander of the district while still a cadet. For an urgent 10 days in total for self-propelled, And the Soviet lip is still a place, the special regime zone will appear as a sanatorium, Who by helicopter I didn’t fly on my shoulders either. I didn’t understand the time squatting on the TV drawn on the wall. By the way, I’ll get the best fighters out of gouging through life .. You won’t praise yourself - you won’t hear a good word laughing
          Those who have no sense of humor, please do not take literally
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 3 December 2012 00: 45 New
            -1
            Quote: Ascetic
            earned seven days of arrest for not giving out military greetings from the deputy commander of the district while still a cadet.

            Yes, it would hardly have been understood by my comrades Meni, whom I woke up every morning with kicks and shouts: "Meni, get up! We'll be late for the battalion commander, we need to check the roads! Get up, bastard!" Only kicked out.
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 3 December 2012 00: 50 New
              +1
              I already talked about my 5 days for not washing in the bath drinks
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 3 December 2012 00: 54 New
                0
                If a Soviet officer or ensign came into one of our rooms in the middle of the day, he would have fallen into a state of shock, but he would never have come out of it. Unmade beds, indie bedspreads, posters with women, hookah, telly, soldiers lying on the bed, broniki in the corner 8))
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 3 December 2012 01: 07 New
                  0
                  Zhen would not come out of the nightstand, for sure!
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 3 December 2012 01: 11 New
                    +1
                    And we didn’t have a bedside table 8) But there was satellite TV in the settlement that we were sitting in - a pool 8)))
                    1. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 3 December 2012 01: 14 New
                      0
                      Zhen is the army? Damn resort laughing
                    2. Pimply
                      Pimply 3 December 2012 01: 21 New
                      0
                      Well, that was far from everywhere, to say the least. But we were very, very lucky 8)))
                    3. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 3 December 2012 01: 22 New
                      0
                      I know Zhen, I know.
  • cherkas.oe
    cherkas.oe 2 December 2012 20: 04 New
    +1
    Quote: Joker
    it’s also time for us to return the guardhouse back.

    And not just a guardhouse. I got to the guardhouse three times, - half a year in prison, after which to serve in a fine beyond the Arctic Circle, immediately hazing will end.
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 2 December 2012 18: 44 New
    0
    Quote: Pimply
    Below, I explained the reasons in more detail. They don’t want to fight, they don’t really want to carry out specific duties such as standing on a tower, which they completed over almost three years - nowhere else to go.

    IDF Command - well done !!!
    The commander of the KFIR brigade, who is clearly a warrior in the picture, does not see a soldier with such a commander !!
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 19: 23 New
      +2
      Right, well done. But usually this is solved by slightly different methods. And the fact that it floated out is an indicator of a certain obstinacy of the commander who either went on principle or did not find a way to restrain the guys - which is stupid.
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 2 December 2012 22: 15 New
        0
        Quote: Pimply
        Right, well done. But usually this is solved by slightly different methods. And the fact that it floated out is an indicator of a certain obstinacy of the commander who either went on principle or did not find a way to restrain the guys - which is stupid.
        And what other methods are there ??
        Here the question is not in the brigade commander, but in the lower commander !!
        Who in your army has the right to punish ??
        1. Green
          Green 2 December 2012 22: 34 New
          0
          If the misconduct is easy (maximum punishment is up to 21 days of arrest at the base), then the immediate commander is 9 lieutenants). If a more serious misconduct, then a major or lieutenant colonel can convict up to 45 days in prison. from above it is only a tribunal.
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay 2 December 2012 23: 04 New
            -1
            Quote: Verde
            If the misconduct is easy (maximum punishment is up to 21 days of arrest at the base), then the immediate commander is 9 lieutenants). If a more serious misconduct, then a major or lieutenant colonel can convict up to 45 days in prison. from above it is only a tribunal.

            that is, a person with the title can punish ??? Does the position matter ?? That is, if the major is not a brigade commander !!
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 2 December 2012 23: 21 New
              +1
              Position matters. It’s just that an officer cannot punish, just the rank of an officer makes it possible to punish a certain level. If it is necessary to give a punishment more than this officer wants or can, it means they are transferred to the officer a rank higher.
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 2 December 2012 22: 56 New
          0
          For example, outfits. Hours at the base, deprivation of a week's vacation, a fine - but this is usually for the loss of property, or the wrong crossing of the road.
          1. Green
            Green 2 December 2012 23: 05 New
            +1
            And then there is such a miracle as a fine. We had a crazy story at the base when eggs (chicken for breakfast) were not delivered and there was a shortage of them for a couple of days. The commanders said not to take more than three eggs per person, and one dude did not give a damn about their instructions and ate more, some of those who wanted eggs did not have enough, so he was fined 35 shekels. Normally $ 10 for a few eggs. We all laughed: "fool, I would walk 500 meters to a Druze village, I would buy myself half a hundred eggs for this money :)
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 2 December 2012 23: 10 New
              0
              We had such cases. The team itself punished us; we had a similar case with an omelette: one activist ate a platoon, the next Sunday he ate a platoon rate practically, thieves and informers were dealt with harshly and the command never intervened.
              1. Green
                Green 2 December 2012 23: 17 New
                +1
                lol Platoon rate is fun, poor fellow .... lol
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 2 December 2012 23: 22 New
                  0
                  Then they had mercy on him so that they would not tear laughing
  • anchonsha
    anchonsha 2 December 2012 11: 48 New
    +5
    Yeah, and the table of contents of the article was so promising ... That the journalist should go out of town to make such a seductive sweetie. .. And here are the usual army everyday life and the temptation of privileges ... But we thought that this muck is only in our army. And YARY, from surprise or for some other reason, even spread to the probably Jewish language, explaining something to those guys from their positions.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 12: 09 New
      +6
      Hazing - in one form or another - is everywhere. The question is not in her, but in what forms it takes. When such as in Russia - with senseless humiliations and beatings - it is, you see, a shame.
      1. Dyusseldorf
        Dyusseldorf 2 December 2012 12: 27 New
        10
        Pimply,
        such problems are not only in Russia
        watch this with the foreign press "All female soldiers are sexually harassed"
        http://www.inopressa.ru/article/29Nov2012/times/arm.html
        atoms are accustomed to scoop up our army, like sadism is flourishing in our country, and in the west the ideal order
        PS fl flowers in comparison with what is going on in the Amer’s army, finally there’s PPC

        I couldn’t insert the link into the text, it seems, but this address
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 2 December 2012 12: 35 New
          +2
          In Russia, the problem is that violence in the army has become the status of a regular and regular occurrence, and quite a while ago.

          Crimes are in all armies. Otherwise, there would have been no military police services in different armies. The issue is the level of crimes, their number, and attention to this issue, both from the side of society, so from the army and authorities. For example, the same sexual harassment of women soldiers you refer to in Russia is generally perceived with extreme skepticism and neglect.

          Recently in Russia there have been tendencies towards a real fight against hazing and hazing. However, as long as this is joyful - but they also have a dick! without understanding that the roughness and level of attention to the problem is different - there will be no progress.
        2. Bunny
          Bunny 2 December 2012 12: 40 New
          12
          Dyusseldorf,
          Hazing is only ours, and they have a good old tradition! wink
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 2 December 2012 12: 42 New
            -1
            Hazing is in any army. The question is what shapes and sizes it takes.
            1. BYRY
              BYRY 2 December 2012 14: 53 New
              -2
              Is it that in my message was not permissible?
              http://clip2net.com/s/2yR5L
  • Basilevs
    Basilevs 2 December 2012 11: 48 New
    +3
    They'll rip you off ... But don’t rebel ...
  • predator.3
    predator.3 2 December 2012 11: 59 New
    18
    In our time in the army there was a popular expression: "Not allowed! By the term of service!" , only here's a lump. the company (by the way, the CCM in boxing) did not want to understand this, all the "spirits" and "grandfathers" flew, did not repeat the orders twice! good
    1. talentedvillain
      talentedvillain 2 December 2012 12: 04 New
      +8
      +++ familiar situation! themselves flew at different stages of service angry
  • Pimply
    Pimply 2 December 2012 12: 06 New
    +9
    It is worth giving a little explanation.
    Urgent service in Tsakhal - 3 years.

    In combat units, this period is divided into two parts.

    Part one - "butter" - lasts a year and two months. This period includes 4 months of the KMB, 2 and a half months of the advanced stage of the exercises (after which the fighters receive the army qualification "ruvai 07" (which means a fighter of level 07, junior commanders - level 08, sergeants after a special course - 10, infantry officers - 12) This is followed by a period of military service with the soldiers of their call, interspersed with exercises.

    Part two - "vaticot". Lasts a year and eight. After buttermilk, there is a distribution into four main streams: courses for junior commanders, a rear support company and two companies of old servicemen: an offensive company (course, palkhod, ruvait - they are called differently everywhere) and a reconnaissance and reconnaissance company (misayat).

    Soldiers of different conscriptions serve in "vaticot". Usually five, once every four months, some of the soldiers are demobilized, some, on the contrary, come to the company.

    A soldier, entering a company, essentially starts from scratch: he is young, "tsair". That is, he runs on all errands, cleans up, works hard, goes on the most uninteresting tasks: like, stand on a tower, etc. Then comes "tsair bakhir", "makhzor zone", "lamed mem Alef", "mem Alef". With each stage, the privileges grow, the number of the period between going home decreases (say, the last call, can go home a week / week). But before - they work hard. And, quite often, when a new commander comes to a subunit, who is not familiar with the specifics of "civil servants" - and there are often such units, he establishes new orders, tries to tighten the screws. It usually ends like this - the "grandfathers" go to jail for a couple of weeks.

    Such cases happen on a regular basis. Yes, it is worth noting that, from my own experience, I fully understand those old-timers - by the end of the third year of service you get very tired of the army, and if, after a bit of trouble, they disdainfully go with you "on principle", there is little pleasure in this.
    1. valokordin
      valokordin 2 December 2012 12: 46 New
      +8
      What a fellow, as if the IDF itself served. What is being done right there. There really are highly qualified fighters, not one-year-olds. This is not a bayonet for you if you hit with a butt, if one of the old people has not forgotten military affairs for 50 years. He served 3 and a half. What is being done in the army is destruction. A soldier must serve for at least 2 years. Weapon training is not the most important thing, although this is the primary source of the military service, and most importantly, it is the strengthening of morale and army cohesion. If we are not talking about the army, but about the partisans, then yes 1 year is enough.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 2 December 2012 12: 53 New
        +9
        I served. Three years, in a battalion adjacent to the same "Dukhiyfat".

        If we talk about the service life - it can be a year, and two, and three - depending on the units. Only this should be an intelligent service. A soldier can be trained in less than six months, and within the same period, unit cohesion can be achieved.

        The question is, in my opinion, military service should not be a closed event for several years. Soldiers need a competent system of exits home, to the city, on vacation, etc.
        1. valokordin
          valokordin 2 December 2012 13: 21 New
          +4
          It’s certainly contagious, I’ve never been home for a week, I’ve never been on vacation, about 90% of us didn’t miss them, and the Air Force, Airborne Forces served
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 25 New
            +1
            About that and speech. A distinct vacation system is needed - this allows you to let off steam, slightly relieves your head from army life.
          2. Professor
            2 December 2012 13: 33 New
            +1
            In the IDF, the commander cannot leave a soldier at the base for more than 21 days. The exceptions are military action and disciplinary action. The "first" in the rank of punishment is the delay of a soldier at the base for 2 hours. It seems funny, but it will not seem a little, because the buses with soldiers have already left and get there as best you can. So you can spend the whole weekend on the road instead of a more "rewarding" pastime.
            I knew one "Russian" who served at an Air Force base in the center of the country where there is a rocking chair, a cinema and a swimming pool for everyone. So he stayed at the base on weekends (entertainment and food for free), and did not go to a rented apartment. A month later, he was found out and, by order, sent to leave.
            By the way, soldiers whose parents live abroad are entitled to a monthly vacation of a year for them to visit.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 36 New
              +2
              Used the last paragraph.


              It should be noted that for every four months of service, the so-called. "regilya" is a weekly vacation. Well, the last month of service is also, as a rule, vacation.
              1. Igarr
                Igarr 2 December 2012 14: 06 New
                +5
                Guys, then I understand ... that the execution of orders is rigorous. So?
                And if suddenly a new commander ... doesn’t know what subtleties - ... I’m not catching up with something.
                And who should tell him these subtleties?
                And why in general, do you need to pay attention to these subtleties?
                With such a must - ... work-rest.
                Schedules outfits - who? Operating schedule?
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 2 December 2012 14: 16 New
                  +1
                  How do they go to officers in Israel? As a rule, the chain is as follows

                  Of the soldiers in oil, about a month in the tenth, the best junior commanders are taken to school - there are relatively few of them, more of them go to these courses after the oil. Then part of these commanders can be immediately sent to the officers immediately after the courses. Well, or to send to the officers to serve in the unit - either in the same oil, or in the Vaticot (I quoted all the terms here in one of the posts). Next - the officer, after the courses, goes either to the oil, or to the Vaticot. The Vaticot does an additional course in the specialty. And there, in the company, he either deserves a year by the term of mandatory three-year service, and then goes on a demobilization, or goes on increasing.

                  These are the comrades who went through the school of junior commanders and officer courses, without colliding with the companies of the old-timers for their service, and some who do not understand that the old-timers have already run into such a way that no one dreamed of it, often try to assert their authority by not the most intelligent way - I'm the boss, you

                  The law is on their side, and the refusal of the guard is another topic. But, nevertheless, this also does not affect the commanders in the best way.
                  1. Igarr
                    Igarr 2 December 2012 14: 30 New
                    +3
                    Well, now, it has become clear ..
                    One must think, and this is ... from fresh, yes, commander.
                    I just decided ... "to tighten the nut," and the "old men" through the arrest ... explained ... the service.
                    So?
                    Well then, nothing special.
                    With us, too, until you yell at the boss, you'll stand .. as it should.
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 2 December 2012 14: 34 New
                      0
                      In the mouths of oils, as a rule, there is the so-called distance - that is, what is similar to the Russian-Soviet relations between a soldier and an officer, although the distance breaks with the service life - you can call a commander by name by some time, you don’t go in formation, etc.

                      In the Vaticot, this distance is more than completely absent, with rare exceptions. So, having gotten used to yelling and commanding, it is more difficult to get used to freemen in old-time companies, when often the komzvods and some of their soldiers were called up together and served side by side for a year.
                      1. Igarr
                        Igarr 2 December 2012 14: 37 New
                        +1
                        Well yes..
                        "Batey" - the commander just won't name.
                        Also ... you have to earn the right - to call it that.
                      2. YARY
                        YARY 2 December 2012 16: 12 New
                        +4
                        But Ruff HIS COPPER is a service and not mother shrapnel!

                        There was a case in my memory in the N-th part, a new comfor, came, and there it was mine, the farm of Naplevayka in the Po-tic region.
                        Well, somehow right off the bat, he built all the freelancers and gutarit, - "So they say, and races so kids, let's get together, it's good, but don't get together, the medical unit is a lip and so on in a circle."
                        - "Who thinks that it is smeared with gold - in the evening for a run around the unit!"
                        Twenty snouts came in the evening.
                        No one said or said anything, what happened there, however, seven beds in the morning in the sanitary unit were occupied.
                        Thirteen spots on the lip too.
                        And from that morning, the whole "hazing" turned into hazing ..
                        That's it.
            2. Green
              Green 2 December 2012 20: 41 New
              0
              No, not really, professor, I don't know how at other bases, but in Mihvey Alon I often received "shaot itziyot". the bus took away all the soldiers first, and then came back for us, penalties with 2 hours of fine. But it was all the same :)
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 2 December 2012 20: 48 New
                0
                It depends on where. There were regular buses to Mikhvey Alon, but in some places ...
              2. Rumata
                Rumata 2 December 2012 21: 31 New
                +1
                Quote: Verde
                No, not quite so professor, I don’t know how at other bases, but in Mikhvey Alon

                At the bases in the desert, often 2 times by bus, in the morning and in the evening, did not even have time to walk, he got stuck a couple of times, in the end, he arrived 6-7 hours later. a trifle but after 21 days at the base it's a shame
                1. Green
                  Green 2 December 2012 21: 38 New
                  +2
                  May be. He himself later served in the army. A direct bus from the base to Ashkelon lasted forty minutes. and on public transport through Be'er Sheva five hours took no less. Therefore, if I woke up (and woke up regularly) the morning bus, then I would get to the unit only after lunch. But there were qualified electronic engineers at the base (at least there was no Ugda), and I had to arrange sending all e-mails. systems in the mahabda in the center. And so I carried out minor repairs myself, and they appreciated it. therefore, even in 2 weeks of AWOL, I managed to get 1 day of retuk.
                  1. Rumata
                    Rumata 3 December 2012 01: 47 New
                    0
                    Quote: Verde
                    . therefore, even in 2 weeks of AWOL, I managed to get 1 day of retuk.

                    Rigidly =) For two weeks of AWOL, it seems to me personally that they would introduce the first bedside table in Israel and put it on for a week =)
    2. Yarbay
      Yarbay 2 December 2012 18: 47 New
      +1
      Quote: Pimply
      In combat units, this period is divided into two parts.

      Hi Zhenya, and who is the creator of such a system ???
      Who prepared and organized this system?
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 2 December 2012 19: 23 New
        +1
        No idea, to be honest. At the dawn of the formation of the army appeared, as I understand it
    3. Rumata
      Rumata 2 December 2012 21: 24 New
      +2
      Quote: Pimply
      Cases of this happen on a regular basis. Yes, it’s worth noting that, from my own experience, I fully understand those old-timers

      I, too, had a very similar situation with us, a new officer came and began to tighten the screws tightly, we had 4 months to go to demobilization, ran away for our two years and 8 months, got on better and wanted minimal relief. Without any erasure of footcloths. And just a little more free time, in the end this matter was decided inside and there was no noise due to such garbage ...

      Just when you serve for so long, you want some progress, minimal improvements and concessions. As an example at the KMB, the officer told us that the soldier was either lying or running, and we were running everywhere. even at the dining room ... 4 months we ran and when it was canceled after KMB there was an indescribable buzz, a trifle. and how nice
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 2 December 2012 21: 31 New
        +1
        About that and speech, in general.
      2. Green
        Green 2 December 2012 21: 43 New
        +1
        Yes, the world of combat units and jobniks are two different worlds.
    4. postman
      postman 2 December 2012 21: 47 New
      -1
      Quote: Pimply
      It is worth giving a little explanation.

      "Only old men go to battle"?
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 2 December 2012 21: 48 New
        0
        To some extent, it is. They tried to take them for military operations.
        1. postman
          postman 2 December 2012 22: 16 New
          +1
          Quote: Pimply
          They tried to take them for military operations.

          And what about the "old people" themselves?
          I mean, look at it? BO is a privilege or "we have already" fought for the previous 8 months, let the young ones fight.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 2 December 2012 22: 58 New
            0
            Differently. But usually - they look at it as a privilege, since this is a real activity. Going out on the battlefield was always considered honorable.
          2. Rumata
            Rumata 3 December 2012 02: 00 New
            0
            Quote: Postman
            I mean, look at it? BO is a privilege or "we have already" fought for the previous 8 months, let the young ones fight.

            No matter how hard the old people feel, they have more responsibility, and they have more experience, and this experience is also important to convey. At least that was the case with us. For example, young people come, they were screwed for a year and four months, but they don't know how everything looks in reality, so they are gradually sent on assignments with "grandfathers", firstly they learn, and secondly they are more confident this way as there are old people who do not climb out of Hebron for a year, for example, if they prompt and insure something. Whatever one may say, but even the best training soldier will not feel very confident during the first arrest in the territories. In addition, as Pupyrchaty wrote, often young officers have practically no experience. maybe a couple of months, and here again the old-timers play their role and help get in the know. Considering all this and the very fact of service for more than two years, it is quite fair to hope for small privileges. The soldiers do not need much, let them go home an hour earlier or free them from work in the kitchen and everyone, everyone is happy, everyone is happy. Dembel train is superfluous-))
  • bubla5
    bubla5 2 December 2012 12: 06 New
    -4
    Just not for our minds, some kind of brigade of kfir, company of hoopoe, shorter article for idiots
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 12: 10 New
      +4
      Not the company "Hoopoe" - Dukhiyfat. Brigade. The company is there Hod.
  • tomket
    tomket 2 December 2012 12: 08 New
    +6
    when the privileges of the old-timers begin, professionalism in the army ends, apparently we are witnessing the beginning of the sunset of the IDF
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 12: 12 New
      +2
      Well, then the sunset started from the beginning. Because for some reason the privileges that exist now cannot be compared with those that existed 20 years ago - then there was a "bison" (a rather tough ritual of acceptance as grandfathers), and other fun.
    2. Professor
      2 December 2012 12: 13 New
      +4
      Therefore, they are struggling with privileges. Previously, there were even more.
      This article was posted on the first page of the most widely read newspaper in Israel and will not pass by the attention of the majority of the population, including conscripts and their parents. Israel has a special relationship with the army and its problems.
    3. Felix200970
      Felix200970 2 December 2012 14: 17 New
      +5
      Quote: tomket
      when the privileges of old-timers begin, professionalism in the army ends

      Delirium of a gray mare. You can thresh water in a mortar for a long time and talk about gender politics (well, in general, everything that shitcrats and other slobber ones who do not have the slightest experience and concept are trying to talk about). There will always be a difference between young and old employees. And the longer the service life, the more noticeable. Any commander assigns a more experienced soldier to perform a responsible task, and does not send him to sweep the parade ground with a crowbar. Eugene (Pimple), although he opens his eyes to some moments of service in the IDF, but not all. Fulfillment of duties in the crawl in terms of physical activity in the IDF differs from the UGiKS of the USSR Armed Forces (in the Ukrainian Armed Forces, the UGiKS differs little from the UGiKS of the USSR Armed Forces) in the direction of "sweeping the parade ground with a crowbar." As far as I know, they stand up for the post (read the tower) together and for 12 hours. You can sit on the tower, but only for a certain time and only one. Who went on guard with us knows what it means to stand at the post for 2 hours at -30 degrees Celsius. Now try to imagine +40 and stand for 12 hours.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 2 December 2012 14: 30 New
        +3
        Together and for 12 hours they intercede, usually in non-combat units. Fighting units - one, and for a period of two to four hours, with a break from two to eight hours of rest. Music is forbidden; as a rule, it is impossible to sit down. Temperature - depending on the time of year, in winter and minus is.
        1. One-Two
          One-Two 2 December 2012 18: 43 New
          +1
          You can read more about the freezing temperatures in winter in Israel
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 2 December 2012 19: 25 New
            -1
            Hermon, Ar Grisim, in some places in the desert, Ireusalim and foothills.

            More important another is high humidity, and, accordingly, the cold is felt much stronger.
          2. Rumata
            Rumata 2 December 2012 21: 35 New
            +4
            Quote: One-Two
            You can read more about the freezing temperatures in winter in Israel

            He guarded our "ski resort" on Mount Hermon. Everyone is snowboarding, and you look at them like an idiot and envy them
            1. Green
              Green 2 December 2012 21: 50 New
              0
              Everything in due time :) Nevertheless, the psychological atmosphere, at least wherever I served, and I changed 6 bases, was extremely friendly and comfortable even where I was clearly wrong due to my youth (I broke the course to Haifa Techni, where I sent to the course of mechanics F-15), after which I was again written off from the Air Force in the "green infantry". So I didn't wear my white uniform for a long time. and in general, remembering myself, I understand that the system could be more rigid to people like me.
            2. igor67
              igor67 2 December 2012 22: 59 New
              0
              most likely here?
    4. postman
      postman 2 December 2012 22: 37 New
      0
      Quote: tomket
      in the army, apparently watching the beginning of the sunset IDF

      that is unlikely.
      Oslo period ended after the 2006 war
      I have not heard / read a single opinion about the decrease in efficiency
      MOSSAD
      Shabak
      AMAN
      IDF
      the film was made by the Training Department of the IDF Ground Forces


      Even this news is unlikely "the beginning of sunset"
      the German government decided not to provide Israel with a financial aid package (Euro 400 million) aimed at the construction of the sixth Dolphin-class submarine and two MEKO A-100 frigates

      A surprise for Israel was the recent acquisition by a company from the United Arab Emirates of a significant stake in the German company Blohm and Voss, which is building the MEKO A-100
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 2 December 2012 23: 01 New
        -1
        Well, nobody really counted on 400 lyamas. Now there is a new gesheft - the Iron Dome will be exchanged for Korean corvettes. And the sixth boat was already ordered.
        1. postman
          postman 3 December 2012 12: 57 New
          0
          Quote: Pimply
          Well, nobody really counted on 400 lyam.

          even as expected.
          "Jerusalem post": Germany will pay up to 135 million euros for diesel-electric submarines, the cost of which is estimated at between 372 and 520 million euros
          TSAMTO also confirmed this info
          Der Spiegel also when he was investigating the topic of equipping the submarine "Popeye Turbo SLCM"

          Quote: Pimply
          Now a new gesheft - they will exchange the "Iron Dome" for Korean corvettes

          And ON THEM (QC) WILL BE PLACED (CAN BE PLACED):
          Radar (probably EL / M-2248 MF-STAR with AFA "Elta Systems") ????
          vertical launch complex Mk.41 (SAM and shock missiles) ???

          ? There you are not here. KK is not a German A-100
          Most likely with the "Northrop Grumman" will build an advanced "Saar-5."
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 3 December 2012 13: 21 New
            -1
            Hardly. It was discussed, but something stalled
            1. postman
              postman 3 December 2012 13: 35 New
              0
              Quote: Pimply
              Hardly.

              with this
              Quote: Postman
              EL / M-2248 MF-STAR
              and this
              Quote: Postman
              Mk.41


              you still need to do something.
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 3 December 2012 13: 40 New
                -1
                It is necessary. But the topic with Saar 5.5 somehow died, although it was at one time popular
  • tomket
    tomket 2 December 2012 12: 23 New
    +8
    It seems to me that more often such articles in our country should be hung out so that they would talk less, but they have everything in order there, but we have so poorly everything, we just did that ground swept
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 12: 27 New
      +4
      There is a difference between the beatings, which become normal, and between the refusal of the soldiers to stand guard, which was an extraordinary event.
      1. valokordin
        valokordin 2 December 2012 12: 54 New
        +3
        Pimpy, I have already responded to your writings, I like your opinion, but here are some points, what to do in our workers and peasants army? The rights of the commanders were curtailed, immediate punishment for failure to comply with orders should not be made, a guardhouse not by order of the commander, as in the good Soviet times, but through a court with lawyers and other troubles. But what about in the field with the provision of food, what again should the waiters wear in Yudashkin hoodies?
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 04 New
          0
          You think that I know the absolute solution? So no.

          IMHO, for starters, we need a system of normal holidays for soldiers, so that the soldier does not spend all his time at the base. Closed exit from the base is a very serious punishment.
          Secondly, a good commander will find a way to punish a soldier if it is really needed. We need a well-thought-out system of punishments - for this, if I am not mistaken, and, for example, the army police is introduced, no? We need a clear system of dividing the level of implementation and understanding of orders, but now refusing an order to wash the floor and refusing an order to shoot a civilian is perceived the same way - you cannot refuse an order, although the second refers to orders that are illegal, and, de jure, according to the laws of the Russian Federation, should not be performed.

          Is the combination of outsourcing - which has worked well, as far as I know - and army kitchen services such a big problem? What you are talking about is management and logistics. As far as I remember, these quite sensible moments began to be brought to certain standards under the hated by all "Taburetkin", and the problem of punishing a soldier appeared long before him.
          1. Dyusseldorf
            Dyusseldorf 2 December 2012 13: 42 New
            +6
            Quote: Pimply
            Secondly, a good commander will find a way to punish a soldier if it is really needed. We need a well-thought-out system of punishments - for this, if I am not mistaken, and, for example, the army police is introduced, no? We need a clear system of dividing the level of implementation and understanding of orders, but now refusing an order to wash the floor and refusing an order to shoot a civilian is perceived the same way - you cannot refuse an order, although the second refers to orders that are illegal, and, de jure, according to the laws of the Russian Federation, should not be performed.

            so it was after the February riot in Russia - the soldier begins to decide which order to execute and which not. This is a complete decomposition of the army and loss of combat capability. And then, without the threat of execution on the spot without trial and investigation and without detachment barriers, finally no one will be able to fight (these were forced measures during the formation of the Soviet army)
            PS a soldier must shoot at least a civilian, at least a civilian without hesitation - it could be a terrorist and a saboteur, etc. For those who give criminal orders, the ordering party must bear responsibility. And so in all combat-ready armies, including the Israeli, and you know this very well.
            And the question arises, why are you calling for this: "We need a clear system of dividing the level of execution and understanding of orders"
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 55 New
              0
              You confuse anarchy with the law. And very much. This is the trouble. And the additional misfortune is that in Russia any order used to be considered binding

              Why do you think the same Ulman was tried? Because he complied with an illegal order. In Russia they talk about this less, but there are quite distinct legal gradations of orders.

              In particular, the order is ordinary, legal.
              Then the order is UNLAWFUL, but obligatory for execution - for example, violating the regulations of the guard service or the number of hours of sleep (it can then be appealed).
              The order is absolutely illegal - for example, the shooting of civilians or prisoners. And in the case of the execution of such an order, the court shall be subject to both the one who issued the order and the one who executed it, the latter being not exempted from liability. In particular, Nuremberg.

              The execution of an illegal order, in most cases, does not relieve liability.

              A soldier must know these differences.

              In Israel they are driven from the first day.

              In Russia, as I understand it, neither soldiers nor officers are informed about them. And they should.

              The situation with the decision to go on the attack or not falls under either the first or the second point. And the soldiers after the revolutions in Russia began to solve precisely these issues. In this case, this phenomenon is close to anarchy, and is fundamentally different from what I'm talking about
  • tomket
    tomket 2 December 2012 12: 34 New
    +3
    something always happens for the first time) and then the beatings would start)
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 12: 41 New
      -1
      Would begin, would. Would. This is not the first time - such cases are quite regular throughout the history of the IDF. The level of privileges for grandfathers used to be orders of magnitude higher. As a rule, they are connected with the attempt of a new commander, who came from another structure, to show his authority on the spot.
  • prunx
    prunx 2 December 2012 12: 39 New
    17
    The headline, so straightforward, excites the imagination: fighters with banners "DOLOY SIONISM !!!" "LITTLE BECAUSE! THE ARAB IS A MAN ALSO !!!" "THE KHABADNIK SECT TO THE COURT !!!" And here's all that, the toilets do not want to scrub. Surprised, damn it. lol wassat
    1. prunx
      prunx 2 December 2012 15: 11 New
      +7
      Guys, the Zionists negate me, then to the point!
      1. cherkas.oe
        cherkas.oe 2 December 2012 20: 32 New
        +2
        Quote: prunx
        Guys, the Zionists negate me, then to the point!

        Who is minus the turtle? you have advantages, like a flea on a dog, and you whine.
  • tomket
    tomket 2 December 2012 12: 45 New
    +4
    and I was already delighted, the Tsahal was rotten-fraternization with the Arabs began) but no shit just for himself to remove the hand does not rise ....
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 12: 51 New
      -3
      I understand that you really want to find a fly in a good soup, because then you can say - well, they also have flies in the soup, not just mine. The only difference is that in a good soup there are no flies, it is close to ideal, but maybe a little overcooked or overcooked - it happens.

      If you read the article carefully, you would have noticed that the soldiers did not want to go on guard. Which is understandable, because before that, for almost three years they went to these guards on a regular basis, and at a certain stage - more than others.

      At the tsair stage, the guys voluntarily worked more, because they knew that later, at the end of the service, they would have more rest. And then a new comrade comes, most likely - from the young and from the early, a comrade who has not gone through this, most likely commanded a platoon in the so-called. "oil company", where completely different customs and rules, and begins to assert itself.

      Therefore - do not look for flies where they are not. It’s better to learn how to cook your soup so that they are not there.
      1. YuDDP
        YuDDP 2 December 2012 22: 31 New
        +1
        According to Nixon, "Jews suffer from an inferiority complex, and therefore they are constantly trying to prove something."
        1. Beck
          Beck 3 December 2012 12: 46 New
          0
          Quote: YuDDP
          According to Nixon, "Jews suffer from an inferiority complex, and therefore they are constantly trying to prove something."


          Jews do not forget and still suffer from the Holocaust of 1941-1945.

          And since then they have been doing everything and will do everything so that the Holocaust does not happen again.
  • Normal
    Normal 2 December 2012 12: 52 New
    +6
    The difference between an old soldier and a young soldier was and is everywhere and always, from the Roman legions to the current armies. Everywhere the senior employee has certain privileges, and it should be so. Everywhere and always the "young" is "crushed". so that "mom's pies" would come out of him and he became a soldier, and so it should be. But everything should be within reasonable limits. Evgeniy "Pupyrchaty" is right; there should be no bullying of young people out of boredom and for the sake of entertainment. But officers should not equate a senior citizen with a recruit.
    1. valokordin
      valokordin 2 December 2012 13: 27 New
      +3
      Normal you are normal.
      1. Normal
        Normal 2 December 2012 18: 44 New
        0
        Quote: valokordin
        Normal you are normal.

        Some commentators regularly have doubts. Or it’s encouraging that someone called himself normal without asking their permission laughing
    2. Beck
      Beck 3 December 2012 11: 43 New
      -2
      Quote: Normal
      The difference between the old servant and the young fighter was and is everywhere and always, from the Roman legions to the current armies.


      It's right. If such a dispute has begun, and I will allow me to express my assumptions.

      "Hazing" in the Soviet Army could arise after the end of the Second World War. When the mass demobilization of soldiers who had gone through the war began. Some parts were disbanded outright. Most of the soldiers of units and subunits could not be demobilized all at once. They were demobilized gradually, as they were drafted into these units, 19 year old recruits.

      Battalion. Most of the soldiers who went through the war have already been demobilized. Only a small part remains. The rest of the battalion's personnel were 19-year-old youths who did not smell gunpowder. And here comes not a military order, but an internal order - to rip the floors in the barracks, dig a hole, clean the toilet. And who will do all this. 30-45 years old WARS with the Order of Glory, Red Star, Patriotic War on their chest. They have medals on their chests for the capture of Konigsberg, Budapest, Berlin, which are suitable for 19 year olds. Of course not. All this will be done by 19 year old "sons" and voluntarily at first. It is then that these youths, having served for 2-3 years, will call themselves "fathers", "grandfathers" and will transfer all the hardships of the barracks service to the newly recruited youths. And over time, extra-statutory relationships will be layered on this.

      This is my opinion, since I did not find other roots of "bullying" in the Soviet Army. It is possible that someone sees other roots.
  • bremest
    bremest 2 December 2012 13: 04 New
    +3
    In a recent interview, Henry Kissener predicted that Israel would disappear in 10 years.
    http://www.strana.co.il/news/?ID=64770&cat=4
    Maybe ordinary Jews have already begun their exodus from their "wonderful" country? .........
  • tomket
    tomket 2 December 2012 13: 15 New
    +2
    I wonder what Henry Kissenger was based on, will f-16 stop selling and therefore disappear? Or will tolerance absorb this aggressive state and dissolve in the universal love of the Arabs? _)

    By the way, they’ll offer to start offering them MiG-35) Egyptians on f-16, and Israelis on MiGs, an evil irony of fate)
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 18 New
      -1
      Israel reached the F-16 level in 1987, when two viable Lavi aircraft flew. By the way, for many years Israel has been producing wings for aircraft for Lockheed Martin. Israel has its own avionics, is actively exported, and is considered one of the best in the world in terms of its level. It's about F16.

      Now let's talk about the aggressiveness of the state. In theory, by signing peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt, Israel would then have to attack them. Interestingly, but this did not happen. Or is aggression considered a reflection of an attempt to destroy a state?
      1. prunx
        prunx 2 December 2012 14: 43 New
        +5
        Quote: Pimply
        Now let's talk about the aggressiveness of the state.

        About this?
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 2 December 2012 14: 51 New
          0
          And again, you shove a card that can hardly be considered true. There should be at least three colors. In the first picture there would be a few small dots - this would be the area of ​​resettlement of the Bedouin, mainly tribes. And if they had taken the map of the 1850s - if there were only Bedouins who wander as they like - the Arabs began to move actively around that time, with the atky promoting of this Ottoman Empire. 1947 - why green? The Arabs did not recognize this decision. 1967- why green? The Jordanians annexed the West Bank, Egypt - Gaza. None of them spoke of Palestine.
          1. prunx
            prunx 2 December 2012 15: 11 New
            +4
            Quote: Pimply
            Arabs began to move actively around that time, with the atkivnoe promotion of this Ottoman Empire.

            You're not right. First, you forget that Arabs, like Jews, are Semitic peoples, and they lived there from time immemorial. A Jew is not a nationality, but a religious one, just like an Arab, a Muslim. By the way, Islam is also an Abrahamic sect, because Abraham is none other than the prophet Ibrahim. So, who bequeathed the land to whom there is a big question! Secondly, the picture shows a clear trend.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 2 December 2012 15: 12 New
              -1
              I’m not mistaken, dear. I remember the Quran and Tanah well enough.
              1. prunx
                prunx 2 December 2012 15: 24 New
                +2
                Quote: Pimply
                I’m not mistaken, dear. I remember the Quran and Tanah well enough.

                Then what is your point:
                Quote: Pimply
                Arabs began to move actively around then

                ??? I tell you that the Semites have always lived there, and the Jews are much smaller than the Arabs. Before the advent of Israel, Arabs and Jews lived side by side quite freely and peacefully.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 2 December 2012 15: 33 New
                  -3
                  Quote: prunx
                  I tell you that the Semites have always lived there, and the Jews are much smaller than the Arabs. Before the advent of Israel, Arabs and Jews lived side by side quite freely and peacefully.

                  You do not know enough about the history of the region, especially about peacefully living. This is another common myth that there was no anti-Semitism in Muslim countries.
                  If you were kicked out of the apartment by force, leaving one of the children to live on bird rights for housework, this does not mean that the new owner of the apartment has rights to it. Jews lived there for several thousand years, somewhere more, somewhere less.

                  I highly recommend you to carefully study the history of the region. And do not scrub the top.
                  1. Ruslan
                    Ruslan 2 December 2012 15: 59 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Pimply
                    If you were kicked out of the apartment by force, leaving one of the children to live on bird rights for housework, this does not mean that the new owner of the apartment has rights to it. Jews lived there for several thousand years, somewhere more, somewhere less.
                    Popyrchaty what kind of nonsense are you talking about before the Jews there were other peoples who also incidentally slaughtered your bandit tribe sparing no women or children — read the old testament. After these atrocities, you do not have after this moral right to claim these lands.
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 2 December 2012 16: 07 New
                      +1
                      I read. In the traditional reading - Old. We will now deal with the history of the stories of the conquest of land from already bygone peoples? It is easy for each country. Including the Slavic tribes. Nevertheless, you do not think that the Russian land is not Russian, right. Or Ukrainian - not Ukrainian. And there oh how much blood was pouring wink This is about history.
                    2. Ascetic
                      Ascetic 3 December 2012 01: 25 New
                      +2
                      Ruslan,

                      In general, if you go to ancient times. In the XVIII century. BC. Egypt and Palestine were conquered by the Hyksos.Hyksos are hill tribes of ancient Armenians.
                      The emergence of ancient Jews in Egypt is associated by some historians with the conquest of this country by the Hyksos (1750-1580 BC).
                      After the Hyksos were expelled from Egypt, as a result of the increasing oppression of the ancient Jews (allies of the Hyksos), the exodus of Jews begins, the unification of 12 tribes and their conquest of ancient Canaan (Palestine).
                      Many experts believe that the Israeli (Jewish) tribes appeared for the first time in Egypt during the reign of the Hyksos. This is understandable and logical. Jewish tribes were allies of the Hyksos.
                      Egypt opposes the Hyksos and drives them away, subsequently conquering Syria and Palestine and expanding the border up to the Euphrates (by this time, experts attribute the exodus of the Israeli tribes from Egypt). The remnants of the Hyksos retreated to Palestine and there is no information about their further fate. (see TSB vol. 6, p. 517)
                      So shttaa, from here we can conclude that Palestine originally belonged to the Hyksos-ancient Armenians (Sasun Armenians). and the Jews are just a newcomer and have no right to Palestine. Even the biblical king David is an Armenian, not to mention NOA at Mount Ararat,
                      The first outcome, the return to the "promised" land, was carried out by Hayk and his relatives, returning from Babylon to his father’s land of Ararat. The ancient Jews (the descendants of Shem) followed suit, displacing the Canaanites (descendants of Ham) from Palestine. The two “captures” of Jews under the Armenian king Tigran Sredny, when the settlers were placed in Armavir and Vagharshapat, and later, when the Jews were placed in the city of Shamiram (ie Van), are due to the historical memory (divine memory) of the return of the descendants of two sons Sima on the "promised" territory. These sons separated from Shem and settled in Ararat land, after their father began to scout the land, going to the north-west.

                      Before the division of the speech of the human race, the separation of religion (faith) was begun. The last bearers of the paternal faith were the Hyksos, mountain (Sasun) Armenians (aiki), khachapashty (crusaders).

                      The passage is taken from the monograph by Grigory Vaganyan “Stone Chronicle of Civilization”. Network address: http://www.iatp.am/vahanyan/kamlet/
                      So the Armenians have their own views of Palestine. This Armenian scientist .. I laughed for a long time .. very similar to
                      Quote: Ruslan
                      Papyrchaty what kind of nonsense are you talking about before the Jews, other peoples also lived there
                      1. Ascetic
                        Ascetic 3 December 2012 01: 43 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Ascetic
                        So the Armenians have their own views of Palestine. This Armenian scientist .. I laughed for a long time ..


                        Now something is going on in the form of propaganda that the Armenians are nothing but the LOST 10 tribes of the house of Israel, and the Jews themselves are only representatives of one tribe and 1 tribe is the BRITS-general English. It turns out that the ARMENIANS are a chosen people by God and the Jews before this one knee is mixed up that they are even lower than GOEV! belay
                        It turns out that the Armenians stole not only the TURKISH alphabet, the Azerbaijani duduk, dolma, the name of the people, but the BIBLE is about Armenians and not about pseudo Jews with their phantom cherished Israel. recourse
                        So every year the God's chosen more and more becomes, wherever you spit you get into a God-chosen, faithful or Great .. and where to go to the poor go request
                      2. Green
                        Green 3 December 2012 02: 22 New
                        +1
                        Armenians will actually be more ancient than Jews. But if you fight back, we will tell the Chinese that they are the lost tribes of Israel, and then all anti-Semites will definitely have a full and unconditional caput. But in reality, the situation today is as follows (without considering all the injustice in the past, as well as the legality and illegality of certain historical events), the Palestinians are underdeveloped Islamofascists boiling in their own malice, and Israel is an advanced scientific and technological state moving forward making unthinkable for such a tiny state, the number of discoveries in the field of medicine, space, electronics, and many fundamental disciplines. Arabs from the once advanced in the scientific development of the nation fell into the abyss of ignorance and obscurantism.
                2. brutal true
                  brutal true 2 December 2012 16: 07 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Pimply
                  You do not know enough about the history of the region, especially about peacefully living. This is another common myth that there was no anti-Semitism in Muslim countries.

                  There was no and could not be anti-Semitism among the Arabs, since they themselves are Semites! What tightly do not understand?
                  Quote: Pimply
                  If you were kicked out of the apartment by force, leaving one of the children to live on bird rights for housework, this does not mean that the new owner of the apartment has rights to it.
                  If you were kicked out of the apartment by a dear brother-in-law, because you are a crazy sectarian messenger (as well as your brother himself), who has declared himself elected? After all, brothers have the same right to parental property, right?
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Jews lived there for several thousand years, somewhere more, somewhere less.

                  And who are the Jews in your opinion? Semites? So the Arabs are the same Semites as the Jews, lived there for thousands of years, and then what?
                  Quote: Pimply
                  I highly recommend you to carefully study the history of the region. And do not scrub the top.

                  Ie essentially nothing to argue?
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 2 December 2012 16: 14 New
                    -1
                    Quote: brutal true
                    There was no and could not be anti-Semitism among the Arabs, since they themselves are Semites! What tightly do not understand?


                    Well, let's talk about the etymology of anti-Semitism.
                    Anti-Semitism. The term refers to hostility towards Jews and / or Jews, and not to all the peoples of the Semitic language group. The word "anti-Semitism" was first used by German publicist Wilhelm Marr in the XNUMXth century. his pamphlet, The Victory of Germanism over Jewry. The term is explained by racist ideas about the biological incompatibility of Europeans, who appeared among the first ideologists of racial anti-Semitism as the "Germanic" or "Aryan" race, and Jews as representatives of the "Semitic race". Since then, it denotes hostility to Jews, despite attempts, based on etymology, to extend the term to the Arabs, because they also speak the language of the Semitic group

                    So the Arab may well be an anti-Semite, despite belonging to a Semitic group of peoples. This is an established name, a form of xenophobia. Well, if you like it so much - let's call them anti-Semites, will that work?

                    Quote: brutal true
                    If you were kicked out of the apartment by a dear brother-in-law, because you are a crazy sectarian messenger (as well as your brother himself), who has declared himself elected? After all, brothers have the same right to parental property, right?


                    They were not kicked out by relatives.

                    Quote: brutal true

                    And who are the Jews in your opinion? Semites? So the Arabs are the same Semites as the Jews, lived there for thousands of years, and then what?


                    Judaism and Jewry are somewhat larger concepts than Semites. In theory, anyone can become a Jew. It is both a religion and a nationality.

                    Quote: brutal true

                    Ie essentially nothing to argue?


                    I objected. And I add - I advise you to learn history, because what do I mind? To ignorance and ignorance?
                    1. brutal true
                      brutal true 2 December 2012 17: 35 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Anti-Semitism. The term refers to hostility towards Jews and / or Jews, and not to all the peoples of the Semitic language group. The word "anti-Semitism" was first used by German publicist Wilhelm Marr in the XNUMXth century. his pamphlet, The Victory of Germanism over Jewry.

                      The dearest, the term, he is the term in order to express the etymological essence of the process or phenomenon. And William Marr blurted out without thinking.
                      Quote: Pimply
                      So the Arab may well be an anti-Semite, despite belonging to a Semitic group of peoples.

                      Excuse me, on what basis? Religious or racial? Antisimetism is racial hatred, isn't it? Or are you confused with anti-Zionism?
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Well, if you like it so much - let's call them anti-Semites, will that work?

                      Why are they anti-Semite !? They are definitely not afraid of Yud. Why warm with soft confuse? They are anti-Zionists! And the fighters with the occupiers, on the issue of housing deprivation, returning.
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Judaism and Jewry are somewhat larger concepts than Semites. In theory, anyone can become a Jew. It is both a religion and a nationality.

                      Rave. This is a religious affair! He accepted the faith - became a Jew. And the fact that a non-Judaist can also be a Jew is a contradiction, or rather an attempt to equate anti-Zionism with racial hatred.
                      Quote: Pimply
                      I objected. And I add - I advise you to learn history
                      Why do I need yourTorahI, I prefer to study the Dust.
                    2. Pimply
                      Pimply 2 December 2012 17: 50 New
                      -2
                      Quote: brutal true
                      Why do I need your from Torah, I prefer to study the Dust.

                      It seems more like you prefer not to learn anything, sorry. Without understanding anything to bend such thumbs? Do not tell, honestly.
                      To begin with, learn to understand the terminology, a little history will not hurt, if you get into the issues of Judaism - try to tackle at least the basics. Illiteracy posing as knowledge is, in my opinion, an extremely depressing sight. Anti-Semitism in the guise of an impartial researcher is even more disgusting, excuse me. All the best.
                    3. brutal true
                      brutal true 2 December 2012 18: 38 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Pimply
                      It seems more like you prefer not to learn anything, sorry. Without understanding anything to bend such thumbs? Do not tell, honestly.

                      and again it's not about me.
                      Quote: Pimply
                      To begin with, learn to understand the terminology, a little history will not hurt, if you get into the issues of Judaism - try to tackle at least the basics.

                      Well, you can’t do that. Indicate at least where and in what I am wrong. Even if I am not right about the Jews, then I’m right about the Semites, because all known sources say that Avrram is the great-grandson of Shem, the ancestor of the Semites, he is one of the three sons of Noah! Jews and Arabs were Semites and lived in the Sinai from time immemorial! This is what I'm trying to convey. But you are a supporter of the idea of ​​Zionism, they say, the Sinai Peninsula - the land of only Jews.
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Illiteracy posing as knowledge is, in my opinion, an extremely depressing sight.

                      In this I completely agree with you.
                      Quote: Pimply
                      Anti-Semitism in the guise of an impartial researcher is even more disgusting, excuse me.

                      And so I forced you to use your main weapon - the accusation of the opponent in anti-simitism in cases when there is nothing to object to on the merits. As predictably lol
                    4. Pimply
                      Pimply 2 December 2012 18: 44 New
                      -1
                      Quote: brutal true
                      And so I forced you to use your main weapon - the accusation of the opponent in anti-simitism in cases when there is nothing to object to on the merits. As predictably

                      And again, blah, blah, blah. You probably do not consider yourself as such. Does this make you less anti-Semite? Not at all.
                    5. brutal true
                      brutal true 2 December 2012 18: 52 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Pimply
                      And again, blah, blah, blah. You probably do not consider yourself as such. Does this make you less anti-Semite? Not at all.

                      Goluba, where is anti-Semism in my words? I quote from the Torah and Old Testament, to the last word. belay
                    6. Pimply
                      Pimply 2 December 2012 19: 25 New
                      -2
                      Blue, not blue. I do not feed the trolls, I'm sorry.
        2. go
          go 2 December 2012 17: 35 New
          0
          Digging a story is now useless - it is clear that Jews, like Palestinians, have the right to this territory. I spoke about this both with the Palestinians from Syria and Lebanon, where they were expelled by force in the middle of the last century and which no one needs there, and the cat fought in Jews in Lebanon. By the way, these Palestinians are not against the Jews in principle, but in their Palestine, as I understand it, Israel has the same opinion about Israel. It's like the former Yugoslavia - the Croats are the same Serbs only Catholics and Muslims (in Bosnia) these are the same Serbs only Muslims.

          The important thing now is that the status quo is such that Israel won the war and therefore it annexes territories, acting like an ordinary nationalist state - this is neither good nor bad - it is as it usually happens - who is stronger is right. But the problem is that the housing problem of the Palestinians has not been resolved, so there is only one way out - there should be two apartments with marked borders on this territory or this question will be the same as the Kurdish, those are endless.
        3. Rumata
          Rumata 2 December 2012 22: 35 New
          -1
          Quote: brutal true
          There was no and could not be anti-Semitism among the Arabs, since they themselves are Semites

  • valokordin
    valokordin 2 December 2012 13: 31 New
    +2
    By the way, Tomket is the name of a fighter, although why don't Jews sell the MIG plane, because the Hero of the Soviet Union, Jew Mark Galay, flew on it.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 32 New
      -4
      Because if desired, Israel is able to establish independent production - there were precedents.
      1. valokordin
        valokordin 2 December 2012 13: 52 New
        +3
        He could and could, but not whether Israel would wave to the moon, so to speak. By the way, I read the TTD of the Lavi fighter, the plane is gorgeous, but for some reason Jews from the USA probably did not recommend it. This is not good.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 58 New
          0
          They didn’t do it on political motives - the States pressed, when they saw a serious competitor on the plane. In Israel, the technology was sold to China (where the aircraft are now being produced under a different name, slightly corrected), and actively delved into UAVs - the result is known.

          As for the moon - who knows. Israel is already a space power, a leader in the production of miniature satellites. Moon?

          http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2011/12/111207_israel_moon_program.sh
          tml
          1. postman
            postman 2 December 2012 21: 46 New
            0
            Quote: Pimply
            As for the moon - who knows. Israel is already a space power, a leader in the production of miniature satellites. Moon?

            Shavit is still "weak", and 250kg will not be enough to "reach", "land on the moon" and "drive".
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 2 December 2012 21: 49 New
              0
              Let’s take a look. Application given. A few years ago, private spacecraft also seemed a myth. Nevertheless, it already exists.
              1. Green
                Green 2 December 2012 21: 57 New
                0
                Still, the economy does not yet allow the implementation of ambitious projects. This is generally Israel's misfortune. In fact, a technological superpower is "locked" in the body of a small, poor country. Therefore, a lot of technologies simply leave and are implemented in other countries. Very disappointing.
              2. postman
                postman 2 December 2012 22: 14 New
                +1
                Quote: Pimply
                private spaceships also seemed like a myth

                It did not seem that private traders climbed into space as soon as the actual possibility of space flights was proven. NASA lobbied the government for a ban. There is a whole epic of "battles".
                The dynamics of space launches in 1990 to 2008

                Demand forms a proposal.

                So far with PALMAHIM not every year and start.
                The Israeli mini-financier allocated 300 million shekels for the development of the civil space industry for the next 5 years, as agreed?
                May overtake George T Whitesides
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 2 December 2012 22: 25 New
                  0
                  [media = http: //www.youtube.c DEDICATION of the runway spaceport ENTERING Sir Richard Branson and N.M. Governor Richardson Upham, New Mexico - The New Mexico Spaceport Authority (NMSA) today dedicated nearly two miles of Governor Bill Richardson's Spaceway to Spaceport America, representing significant progress in launching commercial customers into space from the New Mexico desert. Governor Bill Richardson, Sir Richard Branson and about 30 of more than 380 Virgin Galactic astronauts of the future took part in the event, along with guests from all over the world and watched the flyovers and landings on WhiteKnightTwo Virgin Galactic, captive to the transfer from SpaceShipTwo.
                2. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 2 December 2012 22: 27 New
                  +2
                  .......................................
  • Ruslan
    Ruslan 2 December 2012 13: 19 New
    +3
    In fact, the IDF will crawl all the crap when hostilities begin, in which they will die dozens every day - the Jews are friendly when they comfortably fire rockets at the natives, but when they have to die, every Jew begins to remember that he is the most chosen than the others. The history of the Second World War will repeat - when rich Jews bought off and left the ghetto in Switzerland (on trains under the protection of the SS), others saving their skin became KAPPO and drove their fellow tribesmen to concentration camps.
    In the NEXT FUTURE, the principle of electivity will once again play a cruel joke with the Jews - which will lead them to another tragedy.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 27 New
      -2
      The further you go, the funnier you are, excuse me? You seem to be called a Christian somewhere, I remember. Sorry, but Christianity seems to be preaching a cult of hatred, for sure.
      1. omsbon
        omsbon 2 December 2012 14: 11 New
        +5
        There is such a rotten rabbi, Ovadiy Jesif (I can be mistaken in the name), so he seems to preach to the Jews about the gentiles. Of these sermons and a cult of hatred for the sons of Israel.
        I also have a question. Is Holocaust Denial Criminally True?
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 2 December 2012 14: 23 New
          -3
          No matter how many of them, although Ovadia Yosef is a noble benefactor, the spiritual leader of the sectoral party, which many do not really like.
          In fact, one would have to look at the original text that he said there, often there is a distortion in the Russian-language press, especially if the reprint is from an Israeli Russian-speaking one, against the background of the elections.
          1. omsbon
            omsbon 2 December 2012 15: 10 New
            +7
            Eugene!
            I recently read about this Ovadia in the penultimate review. Where the original text has no idea.
            Quote: Pimply
            the spiritual leader of the sectoral party, which many do not really like.

            They don’t really like it, that is, they don’t really agree, it’s about halfway, and this half is spinning to eat with blood. After reading about the goyim, any normal person will become an ardent ANTISYMT.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 2 December 2012 15: 22 New
              0
              Goyim are a people. Anyone, including Jews. The specific phrase of Obadiah Yosef sounded like this, in the context that it was uttered - "the role of the Gentiles is to serve the Jews at the time of the coming of the Messiah." There is a significant difference between the pagans and the so-called. Bnei Noah, children of Noah. That is, people who observe, in the Jewish sense, the seven commandments - that is, Christians, Muslims, etc. Do you understand the difference?

              According to Judaism, God gave humanity through Noah the following commandments:
              The Prohibition of Idolatry - Monotheism
              Prohibition of adultery - respect for the family
              Ban Blasphemy - Honoring God
              The prohibition of killing - respect for human life
              Prohibition of theft - respect for the property of one's neighbor
              Prohibition of eating flesh cut off from a living animal - respect for living things
              The duty to create a fair judicial system

              In addition, the rabbi - he is not an indisputable authority, and not a clergyman, he is a theological scholar. Speaker with theories of interpretation. THEORIES. What can be perceived, for example, only by a narrow part of society.

              Should I somehow start to hate all Russians because there are anti-Semitic scholars among them? Hardly, like any normal person.

              Well, the concept of Jewish selectivity, in the first place, imposes more duties on Jews than rights — to observe more laws, and more strictly, and first of all, in relation to oneself. This is what the so-called Jewish chosenness. Want to become a Jew? Nobody forbids, the procedure resembles the usual study on the course, with the final exam as a result. Further, by faith and nationality, you are a Jew.
              1. omsbon
                omsbon 2 December 2012 15: 45 New
                +6
                And circumcision (circumcision) when to do? Before or after courses?
                Well, seriously, I was always fascinated by the ability to lead a topic into the mainstream of verbiage.
                Eugene, I would understand and stand on your side if they said: Ovadiy obscurantist, place him in a madhouse or in prison, and you are expounding the concept of elect.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 2 December 2012 16: 03 New
                  -4
                  I am talking about the fact that initially it is desirable to look at a specific situation in context and in the original.
                  Ovadia is a specific friend. Is there a place for him in a madhouse or prison? It is unlikely, because he sets out a certain theory, albeit rather boorish and scandalous. The costs of freedom of speech, just like the Arab deputies go on the verge of glorifying the terrorists, and they have nothing for it.

                  There were more radical cases - there a comrade considered potential cases of killing goyim, after which an investigation was undertaken against him, and a batch of books was arrested.

                  Yosef speaks about the hypothetical situation of the coming of the Messiah (Messiah), again - without the presence of a phrase it is not clear what specific situation and what kind of ministry is meant.

                  It is easy to condemn indiscriminately and quickly. It is more difficult to try to understand the situation and understand it. Pulling what was said out of context, you can make a righteous demon, you see.

                  Ovadiya Yosef is scandalous, he speaks often, a lot. Will you pay attention to every theologian? It's about like Zhirinovsky - says what the electorate wants to hear. Within reason,
        2. Professor
          2 December 2012 14: 53 New
          -3
          Is Holocaust Denial Criminally True?

          In Germany, but not in Israel.
          1. omsbon
            omsbon 2 December 2012 15: 47 New
            +4
            Professor, did you kill me, or is it a joke?
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 2 December 2012 16: 08 New
              -2
              The professor is a little wrong.

              In Israel, the Holocaust Denial Act was passed in 1986. The term for “persons who publish written or verbal materials that deny or belittle the crime of acts committed against the Jewish people or against humanity during Nazi rule, in order to protect those who committed these crimes, or to express solidarity with them or sympathy for them ”according to article 2 of this law amounts to 5 years as in Germany. This law established three important enforcement restrictions:
              Historical doubt or impartial scientific research, which aims to understand what was happening, albeit from positions different from generally accepted, is not a crime - in the absence of the goal of protecting Nazi criminals or expressing solidarity with them.
              Similarly, under article 4 of the law, media representatives covering this issue are protected - if they describe it honestly and impartially without “expressing solidarity or sympathy for those who committed crimes against the Jewish people or against humanity”.
              Only the Attorney General has the right to file an indictment under this article.
              1. omsbon
                omsbon 2 December 2012 16: 35 New
                +1
                Respect Eugene!
                Thanks for the interesting information, I will know.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 2 December 2012 16: 38 New
                  -1
                  Always happy. In general, to get under this article in Israel - and indeed anywhere else, you have to really, really try.
            2. Professor
              2 December 2012 17: 04 New
              -1
              Wrong repeat There is such an article in Israel, Austria, the Czech Republic, France, Germany, Spain and Belgium.
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 2 December 2012 17: 09 New
                -1
                Professor, somewhat wrong. There is an article, just, as far as I remember, a very complicated procedure to get under it 8)
      2. prunx
        prunx 2 December 2012 14: 57 New
        0
        Quote: Pimply
        Sorry, but Christianity seems to be preaching a cult of hatred, for sure.
        So sure, hate. By the way, Christianity is a Jewish sect that could not spread among Jews. But it became popular with non-Jews. Just guys can not read. Here is a quote: ... "I am sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel" (Gospel of Matthew 15:24). And all the salvation of which Jesus speaks is promised to the Jews, which is directly written. But what about the non-Jews in the Bible? And here is what:
        "21. And coming out from there, Jesus withdrew to the countries of Tire and Sidon.
        22. And now, the woman of the Canaanite woman, coming out of those places, shouted to Him: Lord have mercy on me, son of David, my daughter is cruelly raging.
        23. But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples, having entered, asked Him: Let her go, because he cries for us.
        24. He answered and said: I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
        25. And she, coming up, bowed to Him and said: Lord! help me.
        26. But he answered, It is not good to take the bread from the children and toss it to the dogs.
        27. She said: Lord! but the dogs also eat the crumbs that fall from the table of their masters.
        28. Then Jesus answered and said to her: O woman! great is your faith; let it be to you according to your desire. And her daughter was healed in that hour. "(Gospel of Matthew)
        Not a Jew according to Christian commandments - a dog.
        M-yes!
    2. Beck
      Beck 2 December 2012 13: 59 New
      -4
      Quote: Ruslan
      In fact, the IDF will crawl all the crap when hostilities begin, in which dozens of people die every day


      What positions do you say so from? From the perspective of a virtual general? Or from a position of complete ignorance of the 50 year history of the Middle East?

      I will only outline two wars. 1967 and 1973. The IDF at the same time fought against the attacking and many times superior armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan. And the IDF not only resisted, but defeated these armies. But Cairo and Damascus were not taken by the Israeli army only at the request of the UN. And the UN tearfully requested, victims of a complete fiasco, the leaders of Egypt and Syria.

      To date, in the world, the largest successful experience in conducting combat operations, under appropriate conditions, are the armies of Israel and Vietnam.

      And you have everything without logic and analysis. One only - we will throw caps.
      1. Ruslan
        Ruslan 2 December 2012 15: 25 New
        0
        Quote: Beck
        Today, in the world, the largest successful experience in warfare

        Quote: Beck
        I will only outline two wars. 1967 and 1973.
        Almost 1973 years have passed since 40, and during all this time, the IDF was engaged in current shelling from long distances and special operations among native tribes. Well, the IDF showed its best practices in 2006 - when the losses exceeded 100, they immediately started looking for peacekeepers. But the Arabs now just get the real experience of military operations in Libya and Syria and they are also armed with modern weapons.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 2 December 2012 16: 22 New
          -3
          There was the First Lebanese - in 1982.

          And then I recommend to see who began to look for peacekeepers. Just for fun. wink
        2. Karish
          Karish 2 December 2012 19: 46 New
          0
          Quote: Ruslan
          Almost 1973 years have passed since 40, and during all this time, the IDF was engaged in current shelling from long distances and special operations among native tribes.

          Well, since the last war of the USSR, by the way, maybe more. And the USSR was engaged in at least the same thing.
          Quote: Ruslan
          But the Arabs now just get the real experience of military operations in Libya and Syria and they are also armed with modern weapons.

          Well, yes, in 1967 and 1973 - they had weapons that were more modern. We ask for favors, wishing once again to receive a bouquet in the face.
          If we allowed ourselves to fight, as in 67 and 73, Neither Lebanon nor Palestine would have long been gone. It’s just that all these philanthropists, led by Europe, the Arabs, and by the way Russia, only Israel is beginning - they are immediately raising a universal howl - the poor Palestinians are being offended. it’s impossible, etc.
          Let them climb already. but they don’t shoot and yap from the underside like mongrel.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 2 December 2012 19: 57 New
            -1
            Then he also got up.
      2. thatupac
        thatupac 3 December 2012 10: 58 New
        0
        The IDF won thanks to U.S. intelligence and U.S. threats to Arabs of direct war with them. And Vietnam dragged what? The United States did not leave Vietnam because it lost. But because at that time there were US presidential elections. And then there was the howl of the waiting US draftees about why their children in faraway Vietnam were dying. The resonance was great, and it was clear that the one who proposed ending the war in Vietnam would be the president. And so it happened. But in fact, the Viet Cong was already defeated.
    3. Felix200970
      Felix200970 2 December 2012 22: 10 New
      -2
      Quote: Ruslan
      In fact, the IDF will crawl all the crap when hostilities begin, in which dozens of people die every day

      You shouldn't be like that. You have no idea about the IDF. And even less did we see them at work. Judging by the publications in the media - get information from four blind people about an elephant. Open at least Wikipedia and read the section "Jewish guerrilla groups". Learn a lot of new things hi
    4. postman
      postman 2 December 2012 22: 46 New
      0
      Quote: Ruslan
      about the present with the IDF climb all the shit when hostilities begin in which every day they will die dozens

      ?
      October war:
      IDF rainy day October 7th.
      Dayan’s order to the 2nd tank brigades in Sinai to drop the Egyptians into the canal waters: the 190th brigade attacking the southern group of Egyptians was completely destroyed. More tanks remained burning before the positions of the 31st Army. The headquarters and brigade commander were captured. Previously, IDF generals did not come across the Egyptians.
      The fate of the second was not much preferable. After the attack, half the initial number of tanks rolled back.
      Air Force (October War): In the first three days of the fighting, the losses amounted to more than 80 vehicles.
      only "Shilki" during the entire October war destroyed 140 Israeli aircraft (1/3 of the entire fleet)
      And?
      climbed "
      Quote: Ruslan
    5. thatupac
      thatupac 3 December 2012 10: 54 New
      -1
      It will be so. Jews are people too.
  • tomket
    tomket 2 December 2012 13: 27 New
    +3
    considering who is now in power in Egypt, in Libya and others, and besides, we have a lot of examples before us: Salafis of Saudi Arabia use their own hands to resent the old countries for destroying whole countries, Egypt’s conflict with and against Israel is a matter of time. America’s position is also not entirely clear. It is seen as the elder brother is trying to build a state elect, so everything is ahead.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 29 New
      -4
      The elder brother is pursuing, so sorry, strictly his interests. And every dollar of credit or military assistance with thorium is returned to the United States in the form of certain technologies or political advantages. As for Egypt - I agree. There are likely to be madmen. Apparently, Sinai will again become Israeli.
      1. valokordin
        valokordin 2 December 2012 13: 56 New
        -1
        I already wrote to you about the chic fighter Lavi, although I am not a Jew, I respect this heroic people with respect. By the way, the Russian people are no less heroic, but ,,,,,,,,,,,
  • tomket
    tomket 2 December 2012 13: 41 New
    0
    Lavi has a long history, from Israel we take our glider and engines from abroad and our avionics and weapons, what they can build they proved to be kfir, but do they have to bother so much?
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 42 New
      -5
      While there is no need for this. This is in response to the F16.
  • tomket
    tomket 2 December 2012 13: 46 New
    +1
    If the story with Mirages is repeated only in the context of f-16 and f-15 and sanctions are imposed on typhoons, then they will buy MiGs, announce that they don’t want to depend on one supplier country, China fought with us not by status, but by MiGs, excellent cars, and society will understand and approve in a difficult moment with a difficult choice)))
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 13: 59 New
      -2
      No, they will just set up production at home - I interviewed one of the creators of "Lavi", there are no particular problems with this, a question for a couple of years.
  • tomket
    tomket 2 December 2012 14: 05 New
    +1
    will there be a couple of three years when the Islamists in Egypt accuse Israel of all economic failures? here is the maximum year to sign a contract, and the flight crew to retrain, although no, I doubt that our industry could ship more than 10 aircraft a year) another cut, redistribution from semi-finished products and backlogs remaining at the plant, Israel will not do business with us)
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 14: 07 New
      -4
      Do you think that Israel will cease supply in this situation? Or did Israel suddenly end in aviation? One - and no?
  • tomket
    tomket 2 December 2012 14: 20 New
    0
    We accept the story with France and the Mirages, then we look at the close ties of the Salafists and America, now we look at the Egyptian ruling elite and the army, the Sharia law, and now at the Israeli Air Force with f-16 and f-15, with neutrality conscious or imposed in the Middle East conflict, taking into account that America is now observing it, aviation can indeed end as in the 73 year, once it was, why not repeat it again.

    only in the 73 year the deliveries were not from the assembly line of the McDonell-Douglass, but directly from the US Air Force, and what can we offer? decommissioned MiGs?

    the question was rhetorical
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 14: 24 New
      -4
      In a day? It is unlikely. And the term for the deployment of its production is relatively insignificant.
  • pogis
    pogis 2 December 2012 14: 23 New
    0
    By love, the 2th native language is Russian!
  • uizik
    uizik 2 December 2012 14: 26 New
    +2
    There is no such army in which there is quietness and smoothness. There are problems, but with its own specifics.
  • tomket
    tomket 2 December 2012 14: 26 New
    0
    Are we on the exam in the Russian language? or didn’t you get the point because of phonetic-linguistic errors? since I’m writing a non-scientific article, I don’t pay attention to errors
  • bart74
    bart74 2 December 2012 14: 30 New
    +2
    20 days for failure to fulfill an order is cool. Any army rests on discipline, fidelity to duty and moral-volitional. News from the category of ordinary. Such troubles are in any army.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 14: 35 New
      -3
      Usually less. But here either the comforters threw out the pretzel, or the soldiers squeezed. In a normal situation, these are generally closed days at the base, without exits, or a guard outfit.
      1. Green
        Green 2 December 2012 21: 12 New
        +2
        I for disobeying the order (did not take the direction to the north, demanded a base in the south, since I lived in Ashkelon) received a suspended week. When the next day he didn’t take this tsaf again, he got another week, and taking into account the existing week, he conditionally drove two to the prison. They drove home nine days later. Since I received thanks from the head of the electronics repair shop, where I was sent to work during the period of imprisonment.

        The court was appointed for me at eleven in the morning. The colonel asked to call him Dudu, which was an abbreviation for David. I have long been accustomed to strange orders in the Israeli army and have long ceased to be surprised. For a Russian person, this form of communication between a soldier and an officer is not quite familiar. Well, as if an ordinary soldier addressed the battalion commander something like this: “Listen, Sanya, there’s such a thing ...”
        “So, Ilya, why are we judging you?”
        - For disobeying orders. I didn’t take the direction.
        After listening to my long story that I am a lone soldier, Dudu scratched his head and pronounced the verdict:
        - A week in prison. Conditionally.
        - Conditionally?
        - Yes. Conditionally. Come tomorrow for directions.
        - For the rescuer sending to the pool at the base “Kfar a nofesh le hayalim”?
        - March home!
        The next day, they tried to palm me off to the base as a cook. This option didn’t suit me either.
        - It is you again! - It seems that Dudu was not too happy to see me.
        - Is it really so difficult to give a normal direction. You will still have problems with me.
        - Ilya, they offered you a compromise - as a cook, a week in the army, a week at home.
        “Dudu, a whole week in the army, that's too much!”
        “That's it, then for disobeying orders you have another seven days in prison.” And taking into account seven days conditionally - two weeks. Call the attendants.
        “Dudu, what kind of attendants?” I am without things, I have no removable underpants, no socks!
        - What do you want from me? Good. Go home and come with your things for two weeks tomorrow morning.
        On the way home, I had a feeling that I probably needed to agree to the cook. From chagrin, I was so embarrassed in the evening that I woke up only at four o’clock the next day.
        - Ugh, damn it, slept through prison,
        The next day in the morning I arrived at the Ointment and gave up on duty
        1. Green
          Green 2 December 2012 21: 12 New
          0
          The court was appointed for me at eleven in the morning. The colonel asked to call him Dudu, which was an abbreviation for David. I have long been accustomed to strange orders in the Israeli army and have long ceased to be surprised. For a Russian person, this form of communication between a soldier and an officer is not quite familiar. Well, as if an ordinary soldier addressed the battalion commander something like this: “Listen, Sanya, there’s such a thing ...”
          “So, Ilya, why are we judging you?”
          - For disobeying orders. I didn’t take the direction.
          After listening to my long story that I am a lone soldier, Dudu scratched his head and pronounced the verdict:
          - A week in prison. Conditionally.
          - Conditionally?
          - Yes. Conditionally. Come tomorrow for directions.
          - For the rescuer sending to the pool at the base “Kfar a nofesh le hayalim”?
          - March home!
          The next day, they tried to palm me off to the base as a cook. This option didn’t suit me either.
          - It is you again! - It seems that Dudu was not too happy to see me.
          - Is it really so difficult to give a normal direction. You will still have problems with me.
          - Ilya, they offered you a compromise - as a cook, a week in the army, a week at home.
          “Dudu, a whole week in the army, that's too much!”
          “That's it, then for disobeying orders you have another seven days in prison.” And taking into account seven days conditionally - two weeks. Call the attendants.
          “Dudu, what kind of attendants?” I am without things, I have no removable underpants, no socks!
          - What do you want from me? Good. Go home and come with your things for two weeks tomorrow morning.
          On the way home, I had a feeling that I probably needed to agree to the cook. From chagrin, I was so embarrassed in the evening that I woke up only at four o’clock the next day.
          - Ugh, damn it, slept through prison,
          The next day in the morning I arrived at the Ointment and gave up on duty
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 2 December 2012 21: 20 New
          +2
          Well, Kfar a-nofesh le-hayalim must be translated 8) This is banter, into Russian is approximately the same as a recreation base for soldiers. And those are available.
          1. Green
            Green 2 December 2012 21: 31 New
            -1
            By the way a cool place. Base in Ashkelon right on the beach. But they sent (in my time0 there mainly only military soldiers there, mainly at the end of the service as an encouragement, so to speak.
          2. Karish
            Karish 2 December 2012 22: 36 New
            +1
            Quote: Pimply
            Well, Kfar a-nofesh le-hayalim must be translated 8) This is banter, into Russian is approximately the same as a recreation base for soldiers. And those are available.

            Somehow we were on courses (from work). so that we wouldn’t ride home (0 hours back, we were rented rooms there (this is in Olga (the town is called. in honor of the nurse Olga). As a military base. It is guarded by the army, many hotel buildings, a club, swimming pools, saunas. gyms, a disco. a cool dining room. Everything for soldiers to rest. Rooms for 2, on the barbecue street, shorter than (we) have spent a month there. Soldiers come with their whole companies to rest, usually for 5 days.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 2 December 2012 23: 03 New
              -1
              On givat Olga rested during the service, we had a week-long rest.
  • AIR-ZNAK
    AIR-ZNAK 2 December 2012 14: 42 New
    +4
    BEGINNING WITH PRIVILEGES FOR OLD SERVANTS ..... Affected visits to homes. On Friday, those who leave home go with weapons. And, in which case, they can take part in hostilities (in theory) immediately. Our lads have no such confidence. Switching to a professional army most hazing problems will be removed. BUT in case of hostilities where to get the same cooks and field kitchens? Or a little blood and dry rations as an option?
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 14: 44 New
      -1
      The transition to a professional army does not remove hazing problems, this is a myth.
      Outsourcing also does not completely take on the feeding of military personnel - learn more about the topic
      1. go
        go 2 December 2012 17: 56 New
        0
        I agree with the air-znak prof army will help from hazing, just its scale and expression is much larger in Russia than in Israel. It still depends on the whole on a professional and cultural level which is different even by the type of service — for example, the Air Force was basically normal.

        Outsourcing food supply is not a problem if standard solutions are used for field exits and exercises - for example, support units, and not civilian ones.
  • rudolff
    rudolff 2 December 2012 14: 43 New
    +4
    Bumpy, I have a couple of questions for you. Not quite on the topic, but very curious. The first. The word "prison" sounded in the article. And what are these prisons like, can they be compared with our guardhouses (or disbats)? Can a soldier get there by the decision of an officer or only on the basis of a court (tribunal) verdict?
    And the second question is completely off topic. How many did not see plots about the Israeli army, I never saw that they went in formation or stood in formation. Is there any drill training at least in some form?
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 15: 04 New
      0
      There are two levels of prisons. There is a bullpen - located, as a rule, at military bases - I happened to sit in such a pilot base, work at the base, you sit in the trailer in the rain and read. There are two or three prisons, now I definitely don’t remember the number 4, 6, 400 (if you haven’t messed up, the last one is for women).

      I quote: The Quartet contains all the defendants, whose cases are heard by the courts of the southern and central districts, the Air Force, the Navy, the rear (“picud a-oref”) and special units (“matkal”). The “six” contains only the defendants, whose cases are examined by the tribunal of the northern district, as well as officers and soldiers of the military police who are under arrest, therefore, to regulate the workload of prisons, soldiers sentenced to significant prison terms are often transferred from the “four” to the “six” .

      In addition to prisons, there are also detention cells in the army, usually located at large military bases. There are usually arrested persons who are planned to be brought to disciplinary rather than criminal court. Disciplinary punishments are also served there. "

      Here a man describes in detail the life in Kele-Shesh - in the six.
      http://travel.oper.ru/news/read.php?t=1051606511

      The four, as I recall, are partly a field camp with tents.

      We build in combat units only at the very beginning of the service. Well, or in prison. I personally engaged in drill training only a few times for the service - before various oaths, solemn events - such as handing berets after a march-throw to the beret (some people walked in slippers - legs were worn to the ears, and there were bandages on the legs), etc. . In courses, sometimes we go in order - they increase discipline. But usually it is an obsolete custom. Why did we go before the formation? We learned to keep our distance for real combat situations, it was the right preparation. In modern conditions, nafig it is not needed.
  • tomket
    tomket 2 December 2012 15: 11 New
    0
    Well, in principle, but in the fields who need it drill.
  • gregor6549
    gregor6549 2 December 2012 15: 12 New
    +2
    I do not see any sensation in this message. Everywhere people serve and each person has his own ambitions. Someone keeps them with him, and someone starts to spill out, for which he receives a "pendula". Normal process within the framework of the charters of the armed forces of specific states. The main thing is to be within this framework. But sometimes it goes beyond the scope.
  • rudolff
    rudolff 2 December 2012 15: 17 New
    +2
    Thank you, Pimpy! Disciplinary courts, as I understand it, are formed directly in the units? Probably the level of the battalion? And what punishments can they impose?
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 15: 27 New
      0
      From comrade. Judges comrades, battalion commander, brigade commander, etc., depending on the rank and severity of the misconduct. I, for the unauthorized going home for the new year, was judged by the base commander with the rank of colonel, 14 days of the bullpen, two of them were reduced. Honor cannot be given, salute only if found not guilty.

      Punishment? From a few hours to go home - go out after all, shortening vacation days, canceling holidays, 28 days at the base. And there, in increasing order, depending on the rank. Over a certain period and misdemeanors, an army court considers the case.
  • rudolff
    rudolff 2 December 2012 15: 53 New
    +1
    In principle, everything is very rational and reasonable. A very balanced system of rewards and punishments.

    And as always we invent a bicycle! The disbats were closed, the guardhouses were canceled, part of the outsourcing orders, the military police were not created. As a result, we got a system in which the contractor (and the conscript, too) without any problems sends the commander in three letters!
  • Was mammoth
    Was mammoth 2 December 2012 15: 53 New
    +1
    Quote: bart74
    20 days for failure to fulfill an order is cool.

    It's time for our army to return to the disciplinary punishments of the Soviet army period, naturally, not blindly copying. The level of "bullying" directly depends on the attitude towards the officer's service. It is easier to achieve external manifestations of discipline using "grandfathers", then it gets out of control.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 16: 09 New
      0
      That's right. As an officer relates to the service, so she goes
  • bashkort
    bashkort 2 December 2012 16: 19 New
    0
    Dembelism is in all armies of the world! Have you ever seen Amer’s films? Yes, it is understandable - it’s a shame for the demobilization that he has to parade ground for revenge, like a spirit.
  • ebrd
    ebrd 2 December 2012 16: 31 New
    0
    Pimply,
    I have a question for you of this kind. Let’s say a person back in the days of the USSR graduated from the Higher Education Institution, served, attained certain ranks and positions, then moved to Israel and decided to serve in the IDF, what is his further service? What, everything from the initial level? At different times I had the opportunity to serve, however, with just two, Jewish officers, by the way, there were very competent and intelligent guys.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 16: 34 New
      -1
      As a rule - no way. Although he once interviewed a guy who didn’t finish — he left the third or fourth year — an officer’s school — before that he was, like, in the GRU special forces. He repatriated, went on a general basis to serve.

      In the Israeli army, the vast majority of officers were originally soldiers. Then - the junior commanders. And only then there are officer courses. As a rule, to break through, you need to start young. Former officers of the Russian-Soviet army, as a rule, were older than the limit. One of them, by the way, went to the police - but not many. There are also contract soldiers of Tsakhal and civilian employees.
      1. ebrd
        ebrd 2 December 2012 17: 05 New
        +1
        Pimply,
        ... most of the officers are originally soldiers. Well, yes, there’s nothing to add here, but how many random people among the officers did we have? All because of the wrong choice of profession. You can’t say anything, a reasonable approach.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 2 December 2012 17: 15 New
          -1
          Nominated by fathers, commanders, if they see the appropriate qualities. The chain in combat units is a soldier (six and a half months) - division service - junior commander school (three months) - unit service (usually) - officer course (six months). Most officers are lieutenant; they sign a contract for a year. That is, they have three years of military service (they get a salary for a shekel or two more than conscripts), a year of contract. After that, you can choose to stay or not. Those who remain begin to go through various additional courses, study at the academy, etc.

          Pilots initially learn to be pilots, although among them there are people who started from soldiers. Same thing with naval officers. This is due to the initially high term of training - pilots for three years, naval officers - for a year and eight. And they sign a contract for a longer time.

          There are academy officers. That is, they have a special status, and a special distinction, in the form of their university degree - the first or second. Officers of the rear units and specialties take a three-month general course and specialization courses.
          1. mazdie
            mazdie 2 December 2012 20: 24 New
            -1
            Everything is very competent, thanks for the educational program.
          2. cherkas.oe
            cherkas.oe 2 December 2012 20: 28 New
            +1
            Quote: Pimply

            Pimply

            Well pimply congratulations, you’ve got a direct benefit today, the Avatar would have changed, otherwise it's scary to watch.
  • enkor
    enkor 2 December 2012 18: 38 New
    +1
    The roots of the Russian grandfather are obscure .......
  • Rus2012
    Rus2012 2 December 2012 19: 19 New
    +2
    Quote: enkor
    The roots of the Russian grandfather are obscure .......

    ... and from the discussion - who posts on the forum;))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
  • Spartakv
    Spartakv 2 December 2012 19: 23 New
    0
    Something has moved away from the topic, don't you think? I fully support: "There will always be a difference between young and old-timers. And the longer the service life, the more noticeable. Any commander assigns a more experienced soldier to perform a responsible task, and does not send him to sweep the parade ground with a crowbar." And hazing is, first of all, humiliation (physical or moral of human dignity), and division has been, is and will always be! "In the Army, no one has canceled hazing!" - not invented by us. And about the Israeli army is a special conversation. Personally, being in Jerusalem, I was greatly impressed on the day off by the fighters in dismissal with weapons !? This alone says a lot.
  • APASUS
    APASUS 2 December 2012 20: 26 New
    0
    In Israel, Arabs are not taken into the army, and they would have known all the delights of the service !!
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 2 December 2012 20: 43 New
      +1
      They take it. Just for the Arabs - this is a voluntary matter.

      In sufficient detail about the Muslim Arab - an officer in the military unit.

      http://nakaryak.livejournal.com/176874.html

      More often Christian Arabs serve.
      Bedouins are very active.
      For male Druze, conscription is mandatory.
    2. thatupac
      thatupac 3 December 2012 11: 02 New
      0
      If they took it, then the Arabs behaved there the same way as the Caucasians with the Buryats behave here. Therefore, they do not take it.
  • Su24
    Su24 2 December 2012 20: 56 New
    -1
    Observe discipline, good. And they can enjoy in the civilian world.
  • thatupac
    thatupac 3 December 2012 10: 21 New
    0
    I understand the indignation of the Jewish elders. Why are these new arrivals the same privileges as for old-timers, when at that time, when the young people in the wild had a rest and did not serve in the IDF, the old people moved in the same guards?
  • Waroc
    Waroc 3 December 2012 11: 37 New
    0
    They are strange guys. In addition to privileges, old-timers also have responsibilities, namely, performing a more complex and responsible task, because they have more experience and skills, at the same time, accordingly, they are exempt from most routine duties. And here it is quite the opposite.
    Personally, given the choice - to go on guard or in an outfit in the kitchen - I always chose the first, despite the fact that the guard is unequivocally and heavier and more responsible.
  • kostello2004
    kostello2004 3 December 2012 11: 45 New
    -1
    with a probability of 80 kosher percent, I report that the revolt was most likely organized by Vanka and Alyoshka, who circumcised for the sake of citizenship in Israel and went to serve, but they still didn’t remove the morals, well, they’ll throw them in the dump hole and they will calm their ardor
  • SmacXnumx
    SmacXnumx 6 December 2012 12: 14 New
    0
    It seems that there for the most part come from the USSR and the Russian Federation