How close did the Germans come to Moscow in 1941 - myths and facts

73
How close did the Germans come to Moscow in 1941 - myths and facts


“Even from a young age, I was convinced that there is no event that the newspaper would truthfully tell about ...”
George Orwell. Remembering the war in Spain

About myths and myth-making


Any great event in stories mankind is always entangled in a dense layer of myths. This phenomenon is also characteristic of the Great Patriotic War, especially its initial period - the autumn of 1941.



The unifying feature of all myths is the obvious unusualness of the plot, which contributes to their wide distribution and extreme vitality.

Agree that few people are interested in listening and then retelling some ordinary things. But with stories that amaze with their improbability, the opposite is true: people listen to them with pleasure, remember them, and then tell their friends with no less pleasure, sometimes even embellishing an already quite picturesque plot.

If you suddenly want to get acquainted with the history of the city of Khimki near Moscow, then you will surely come across a description of an unusual event: on October 16, 1941, German motorcyclists suddenly appeared from somewhere on the bridge over the Khimki reservoir, followed (in some cases) even by a German armored personnel carrier.


Bridge across the Khimki Reservoir: commissioned in November 1936, dismantled in early 1980

Further adventures of motorcyclists have several variations.

According to one version, they crossed the reservoir and boldly drove to the capital. But not far from the Okruzhnaya railway, they were met by the NKVD OMSBON detachment, driven to the territory of the Dynamo water station and destroyed there.

According to another version, the Nazis were lucky: they reached the station without hindrance. Sokol metro station, then for some reason they drove back, and then their traces were lost in the historical haze.

The emergence of such an amazing story was the result of panic rumors that arose on 16.10.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, when a mass evacuation of institutions and enterprises began in the capital, the subway closed, and in some places even riots began to arise - distraught crowds smashed grocery stores. The emotional state of the people reached its peak, and rumors quickly began to spread in the city that allegedly advanced German units were already entering the suburbs of Moscow - Khimki and Tushino.

It would seem that after the end of the war, when the information vacuum about the events of October 1941 began to gradually fill up, the rumors about the appearance of the Germans in Khimki should have been completely and irrevocably dispelled.

But it was not so, myths do not give up so easily. At the end of the 60s, the exciting story about the breakthrough of German motorcyclists was again launched into the masses - this time Soviet newspapers distinguished themselves.

One of the first publications about the mythical coming of the Germans to Khimki appeared on July 14, 1968 in the press organ of the Moscow industrial and rural regional committees of the CPSU, the Leninskoe Znamya newspaper. Then, in 1971, in the newspapers Vechernyaya Moskva and Moskovsky Komsomolets, articles “The Battle on the Khimki Bridge” were published, retelling information from the publication of Lenin's Banner. They stated that on October 16, 1941, “significant battle» Soviet tanks (numbering about 10) with German motorcyclists on the Khimki bridge.

As a result, the myth of the coming of the Germans to Khimki again went to the people.

Residents and party activists of Khimki, who were in the city during the war years, were greatly surprised by these publications - they had not heard anything about such an event. And the former first secretary of the Khimki City Party Committee, A. A. Dymov (who served in this position in 1941), outraged by what he had read, even published an article in the Military History Journal (No. 5, 1972), where he called such publications fictions composed in pursuit sensations. Dymov assured that not only the residents and party workers of Khimki heard nothing about the appearance of the Germans in Khimki during the war years, the Moscow Committee of the Party, as well as the headquarters of the Moscow Defense Zone, did not know anything about it either.

One of the conclusions of the article is categorical:

“... On October 16, 1941, despite the complexity of the situation, the enemy motorcycle column would not have been able to pass unhindered and unnoticed along the Leningradskoye, Pyatnitskoye or Volokolamskoye highway from the front line to Khimki.”

Comrade Dymov categorically rejected the possibility of a German breakthrough into Khimki in the following months - there was no such information either.

But, as you know, the power of the newspaper word can work wonders. It must be assumed that some Khimki residents who read the publications immediately began to recall that they seemed to have seen these wandering motorcyclists, or at least heard about them from eyewitnesses who can be trusted as themselves.

As a result, the myth generated by Soviet newspapers fell on fertile ground, and German motorcyclists continued their heroic raid not only in the domestic press (including the post-Soviet one), but also in the memoirs of some veterans.

And in the memoirs of the military intelligence officer Claudia Nikolaevna Miloradova (in her youth, she performed combat missions together with Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya), motorcyclists even transformed into a tank:

"…October. Someone started a rumor: a German tank broke into Khimki. And so it was: one crazed tanker, who had a ticket for the Nazi parade on Red Square, flew into Khimki, where he was immediately destroyed ... "

Rumors about the appearance of German tanks in Khimki are also mentioned by the British journalist A. Werth, who was in the capital in those October days (“Russia in the War of 1941-1945”):

“... To this day they say that this morning two German tanks broke into the northern outskirts of Moscow, in Khimki, where they were quickly destroyed. True, so far not a single serious source has confirmed that these tanks existed not only in the imagination of some frightened Muscovites ... "

The event cited in P. A. Sudoplatov’s book “Special Operations. Lubyanka and the Kremlin. 1930-1950":

“By direct order of the General Staff and Zhukov personally, we mined the far and near approaches to Moscow, and our motorized unit helped eliminate German motorcyclists and armored personnel carriers who broke through to the bridge across the Moscow River near Sheremetyevo Airport. The Germans were no longer able to get closer to this place to Moscow. Today, huge anti-tank gouges stand here in memory of those days - a symbol of the courage of the defenders of the capital.

It would seem that such famous people somehow should not repeat rumors. And Sudoplatov certainly could not be mistaken, because at that time he was in Moscow and was responsible for identifying and eliminating German sabotage groups - should he not know about all the DRGs identified in the capital, German landings and lost motorcyclists.

However, do not forget that memoirs are just a person's memories of the events of bygone days, designed in the form of a literary work. Therefore, there is no need to elevate them to the status of a historical chronograph, because usually they are replete with many inaccuracies, and also often contain descriptions of events in which the memoirist did not personally participate and learned about them from someone's retellings. Or he even read it in some post-war publications and then established himself in the opinion that he also remembers these events very well.

The above fragment from the book by P. A. Sudoplatov, which causes great bewilderment, can serve as confirmation of the correctness of this conclusion.

Firstly, there is no Moskva River near Sheremetyevo Airport, there is a part of the Canal named after. Moscow - Klyazma reservoir.

Secondly, there really is a bridge across the reservoir, which has long been called Khlebnikovsky, but there is no monument in the form of “nadolbs” next to the bridge (both old and new) and never has been.

It can be assumed that the memoirist had in mind the monument "Anti-tank hedgehogs" on the outskirts of Khimki near the exit from the bridge of the Leningrad highway. through the Oktyabrskaya railway, which is passed by people heading to the capital from Sheremetyevo Airport.


Monument in Khimki: opened on December 6, 1966 in memory of the beginning of the Soviet counter-offensive near Moscow in the winter of 1941.

Thus, there is a clear retelling of a greatly transformed rumor about German motorcyclists, most likely heard by Sudoplatov many decades after the end of the war. I believe that it was this fragment from the book of the legendary head of the reconnaissance and sabotage department of the NKVD that gave rise to the sometimes occurring myth that the Nazis in 1941 reached the northern outskirts of Khimki and were shot by an air defense crew, whose position was on the Leningrad Highway. next to the railroad bridge.

But could such a thing even theoretically happen?

Estimation of the probability of Germans appearing in Khimki


As the Russian historian D. I. Ilovaisky wittily remarked:

"Nations don't fall from the sky."

This conclusion is also true in relation to German motorcyclists - they do not fall from the sky either.

If the Nazis really appeared on the bridge over the Khimki reservoir near the village of Khimki on 16.10.41/XNUMX/XNUMX, then they did not fall from heaven, but came along the roads from some place where the fighting was going on. Therefore, the assessment of the probability of their appearance in Khimki comes down to an assessment of the probability of their movement along certain routes, originating from the places of the battles taking place that day.

Now it is necessary to remember that in the fall of 1941 the Germans launched an offensive with the aim of covering the city of Moscow. The advanced units were battle groups, including tanks and motorized infantry. In front of such a group, a reconnaissance patrol on motorcycles usually followed (sometimes accompanied by an armored personnel carrier). Consequently, if on 16.10.41/XNUMX/XNUMX German motorcyclists really appeared on the bridge, then it was reconnaissance of one of these battle groups, following in the head patrol at some distance (usually in the line of sight).

This means that it is possible to assess the likelihood of the Germans appearing in Khimki by familiarizing themselves with archival documents, which recorded the hostilities that took place on 16.10.41/XNUMX/XNUMX at a certain distance from Moscow.

According to the ZhBD ZapF, to the north-west of the capital, on that day, units of the spacecraft tried to dislodge the Germans from the city of Kalinin (now Tver). And if so, then in order to appear in Khimki, the German reconnaissance patrol had to (it is not clear why) drive along the Leningradskoe sh. about 150 km.

To the west of Moscow, the German units fought with units of 16 A and occupied the settlements of Ramenye, Rozhdestveno, Sereda - about 130 km from the nearest border of Moscow in a straight line. The appearance of the enemy from this direction is even less likely than their arrival from Kalinin.

Thus, it is absolutely indisputable that the probability of the Germans appearing in Khimki on 16.10.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX is zero.

Or maybe there was a little confusion, and the Germans appeared in Khimki not on October 16, but on November 16?

Let's try to estimate the probability of such an event.

On 16.11.1941/50/XNUMX, the German troops located in the Volokolamsky district, operating from the settlements of Shitkovo and Vasilyevskoye, launched a private offensive and captured the villages of Yadrovo, Mykanino, Rozhdestveno, Volokolamsky district. If they had moved along the Volokolamsk highway that day, they would have needed to travel more than XNUMX km to the Khimki bridge. But only they would be on it, following not from the region to the city, but vice versa - from the city towards the region.

In fact, the Germans did not even think of going to Moscow that day, since the private offensive was the first stage of the general offensive against Klin, which they captured only on November 23rd.

And the Germans, located in the Klin district, on 16.11.41/105/XNUMX fought in the vicinity of the village of Novo-Zavidovsky, also having the task of capturing Klin in the future. From there, it was about XNUMX km to Khimki along the Leningradskoye Highway, but they didn’t need to go to Khimki in those days.

Consequently, it is again absolutely indisputable that the probability of the Germans appearing in Khimki even on November 16, 1941 is also zero - on that day, the enemy did not need reconnaissance of the near approaches to the capital, and for a general idea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbthe existing road network, the Germans were quite satisfied with the air reconnaissance data set on the highest technical level.

German fairy tales


Another myth about the coming of the Germans to Khimki was composed by the famous German storyteller (formerly a Nazi propagandist) Paul Schmidt (pseudonym Karel). In his book "Hitler Goes East" (published in 1963), when describing the events that took place on December 5, 1941, he gives the following information:

"... The assault unit of the 62nd engineer battalion from Wittenberg got closest to Stalin's lair, wedged into the suburb of Khimki, just 8 kilometers from the outskirts of the city and 16 kilometers from the Kremlin."

The same tale, with some heroic addition, was later cited in his book The Battle for Moscow by the extremely prolific German writer Werner Haupt:

“The sappers of the army 62nd sapper battalion went to the Khimki station and blew it up. From there it was 16 km to the Kremlin. German soldiers failed to get closer to Moscow.

The well-known Soviet international scientist G. L. Rozanov echoes the Germans in his book “Plan Barbarossa. Ideas and Finale (1970). Only he sends to Khimki "reconnaissance battalion of the 258th infantry division”, dating his appearance in the city on December 2.

These events are also fiction (which is substantiated in detail in the VIZh 1972 No. 5). From November 30, at the stations of Skhodnya, Khimki and Khovrino, the arrived troops were unloaded from the echelons and filled the area. And on December 2, the first counterattack of the 20th Army was carried out in the Krasnaya Polyana region. The nearest approaches to the capital were tightly blocked by the troops of the MZO, and the German offensive had already been suspended, and their gradual planned withdrawal from Moscow had even begun.

A small probability of the appearance of a German reconnaissance patrol in the vicinity of Khimki is only on the evening of November 30, when the Nazis occupied the village of Krasnaya Polyana and located just south of the village of Katyushki. This is the closest point from the positions of the Germans to the borders of Moscow in 1941 - about 17 km in a straight line.

Purely theoretically, on November 30.11.41, 30.11.41, individual motorcyclists could drive from the village of Katyushki on local primers to the village of Melkisarovo and even a little further to the Leningradskoe highway. However, this speculative construction does not find documentary confirmation. And the German group that occupied Krasnaya Polyana had the goal of moving further not at all to Khimki, but along the Rogachevskoye Highway. to Dmitrovsky sh. Consequently, on November XNUMX, XNUMX, German reconnaissance patrols were sent from Krasnaya Polyana along the Rogachev highway. to the east towards Eremino (which is confirmed by documents).

To the north-west of the city of Khimki, the last frontier, where the Red Army soldiers stopped the German troops rushing to Moscow in early December 1941, is the 40th km of the Leningrad Highway. - 17 km to the monument "Antitank Hedgehogs". In memory of this event, at an altitude of 217,1, near the turn to the city of Zelenograd, a large monument was erected, called "Bayonets":


During the war years, German positions were located at this height, and the Red Army soldiers who blocked the highway near the village of Bol. Rzhavki tried several times to knock them out of there. After the retreat of the Germans, a large mass grave was arranged near the height, where, long after the war, the numerous remains of soldiers and spacecraft commanders found in this area of ​​hostilities were buried. The exact number of dead warriors is unknown, of which only 23 have been identified ...

According to the administrative division of those years, this territory (including the village of Kryukovo, where there were also battles) was part of the Khimki district.

The possibility of a breakthrough of the German reconnaissance patrol from this direction is completely excluded: in those days, along the Leningradskoye sh. spacecraft equipment and troops moved in inexhaustible streams. And near the former village of Cherkizovo, it was crossed by a defensive line, from which a small section of an anti-tank ditch has survived to this day, located about 250 m to the right of the beginning of the exit from Leningradskoe to Sheremetevskoe sh.:


To the west of the city of Khimki, in early December, fighting took place in the village of Nefedyevo - about 21 km to the border of Moscow in those years in a straight line. Theoretically, the village roads available that year made it possible for German motorcyclists to go to Pyatnitskoye Highway, then follow it towards the capital, and then turn left and through the village of Korostovo reach the village of Kurkino, and from there get to the Khimki bridge.

However, the likelihood of such a journey of the Germans in those days is highly doubtful. Even if they managed to go to Pyatnitskoe sh. and go along it towards Moscow, then their voyage would end at Korostovo, where the headquarters of 16 A was located and there was its protection, whose task was to protect the commander of the 16 A K. K. Rokossovsky from the visits of such "travelers". Yes, and at Kurkino on the hillside in those days there was one of the barriers of the MZO, specially arranged to prevent such accidental passages of the enemy.

The battle groups of the Germans, moving along the Volokolamsk Highway, were stopped near the village of Lenino - about 26 km in a straight line to the border of Moscow.

The German troops advancing from other directions were stopped at a greater distance from the borders of the city.

As a result, we can conclude that the rumor about the coming of the Germans to Khimki turned out to be incredibly tenacious, and even found another repetition in the mouths of famous Russian historians on the TV show "The Way to Victory".

However, the totality of the currently published archival documents of the spacecraft units that participated in the Moscow battle allows us to state with a probability close to 100% that this colorful story is just one of the myths composed by people during that difficult period of World War II, and repeated after it.

Not a single document of the period 1941-1942, where this event would be reflected, has not been made public to this day. Colorful stories about the raid of brave German motorcyclists are based only on the personal memories of "eyewitnesses" and "direct participants".

As a result, it is worth noting that the defeat of the Nazi troops near Moscow in December 1941 is rightly called one of the main factors that led to their defeat in World War II. But there is also a less known fact: the likelihood of a second German offensive on the capital was considered relevant until 1943 inclusive. And the defensive positions on the outskirts of Moscow after the German retreat were not weakened, but, on the contrary, strengthened.
73 comments
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  1. +27
    2 May 2023 05: 48
    This is how it is necessary to reasonably, politely refute the established myths of the past WWII. Thanks to the Author, he clearly and intelligibly put everything on the shelves. Do opponents have similar arguments?
    1. +9
      2 May 2023 11: 33
      Thanks to the Author, he clearly and intelligibly put everything on the shelves.
      Join.
  2. +13
    2 May 2023 06: 18
    Argued stated. All clear. No questions.
    what In addition, these events took place relatively recently, despite the confusion of the first months of the war, combat reports, reports, no one canceled the maintenance of the railway, operational reports should also be in the archives.
    Apparently, someone will soon conduct a study on the topic: Myths of the 20th century and myth-making.
    It is noteworthy that after the Second World War, many German generals took up writing about the fact that the Soviets almost won, oh, if it weren’t for Hitler ...

    Another myth about the coming of the Germans to Khimki was composed by the famous German storyteller (formerly a Nazi propagandist) Paul Schmidt (pseudonym Karel)

    Anecdote:
    - Is it true that Rabinovich won the Volga in the lottery?
    - That's right. Only not Rabinovich, but Ivanov. And not "Volga", but a hundred rubles.
    And not in the lottery, but in the cards. And he didn't win, he lost.

    Usually, before May 9, I watch the d / f series of films "Unknown War", today I will review the film "Battle for Moscow".
  3. +5
    2 May 2023 07: 00
    Another myth debunked and what has changed. Sudoplatov is also not the ultimate truth. He said a lot of things. And the fact that we exported tons of gold from Spain. We often fall for the bait of unguarded historians. if he sang in German. Then everything would be clearer. But everything outweighs films about the Soviet past, where people are shown from the worst side. Allegedly, they are mired in drunkenness and dirt. And you think about the creators of these films - So that you live like this how you show our people.
    1. +7
      2 May 2023 12: 17
      Quote: Nikolay Malyugin
      Sudoplatov is also not the ultimate truth. He said a lot of things. And the fact that we exported tons of gold from Spain.

      Well, actually, we really took out 510 tons of gold (73% of the gold reserve) from Spain - in the fall of 1936. Another 193 tons (27%) were transferred by the Republicans to France.
      The gold of Spain was transferred to the USSR for storage, and then they paid for purchases in different countries.
      In total, 469.8 million US dollars were received for the sold gold, 131.6 of which were spent in the USSR. As commissions and fees, the Soviet side took 2.1 percent of the total amount, and 1.2 percent was collected as payment for the transportation, remelting and refining of gold.
      © Aunt Vika
      1. 0
        2 May 2023 15: 25
        Poland is also well "get rich" on the arms trade in the warring Spain.
  4. +7
    2 May 2023 08: 03
    Another myth remained - the German landing in the Neskuchny Garden and on the Sparrow Hills.
  5. +8
    2 May 2023 08: 20
    Good article, well argued. Respect to the author. Regarding the panic of October 16, 1941, in 1982, Professor Parkhomovsky, who read in the graduate school of the TFKP and Urmats, told us that on that day he hardly got into the train at the Kazan station, drove to Bykovo, where she got up, and ran in one breath to Kratovo to pick up the family.
  6. -26
    2 May 2023 08: 26
    All lie propaganda.
    Nnmtsy gone to eternity - Antarctica.
    The USSR and Asia became not interesting to the hitler.
    Drangnahost was replaced by dragvled.
    That is why the Nazis and Europe and Germany itself surrendered to the USSR and the USA with impudence.
    The fantasies of the fascists led them to the jump bases in South America and the base in Antarctica.
    Nobody defeated them.
    Or... May 9 victory is ours? Not Churchill and Truman.
    And they crushed the Germans.
    They avenged 13 hens and chickens eaten in the native village of gkzhukov.
    And so on 3 million households throughout the USSR.
    For a dairy cow that cannot be taken for meat.
    But the Germans didn't know that.
    They paid with their state for a cow and a machine. 7 small children had to drink that milk.
    The soldier said: Guilty, worthy of death.
    Fulfilled my decision. And returned to his village to his cows
    1. +20
      2 May 2023 10: 12
      Quote: antivirus
      All lie propaganda.
      Nnmtsy gone to eternity - Antarctica.

      You haven't been to bed since last night, have you? laughing Well, apparently the holiday was celebrated ...
      When you wake up, reread your comment. Personally, if I write something like that, I would be ashamed to appear on the site for at least another week ...
    2. +4
      2 May 2023 12: 15
      They avenged 13 hens and chickens eaten in the native village of gkzhukov.
      Did you celebrate Social Partnership Day? Did you drink with your employer? Or as an employer with an employee? laughing
      1. +2
        3 May 2023 06: 39
        Quote: parusnik
        Did you drink with your employer?

        Yes, it doesn’t look like they just drank ... to see something more modern than they sucked through a hookah!
    3. +6
      2 May 2023 16: 42
      Quote: antivirus
      All lie propaganda.
      Nnmtsy gone to eternity - Antarctica.

      Nothing like that - the Germans flew ... to the moon. But they promised to return.
      Widely known pren-tsen-dent, even in the movies is reflected. ©
    4. +1
      2 May 2023 21: 22
      Quote: antivirus
      All lie propaganda.

      What the hell are you smoking?!!!
  7. +5
    2 May 2023 08: 49
    There is a blunder on the screensaver, the Germans are in summer uniforms and the grass is green, but I liked the article!
    1. +9
      2 May 2023 12: 22
      Quote: mr.ZinGer
      There is a blunder on the screensaver, the Germans are in summer uniforms and the grass is green, but I liked the article!

      These are not questions for the author. If I'm not mistaken - this is a picture from the box with a kit for assembling the model - "German motorcyclists" 1800 -1900 rubles:
      1. +3
        2 May 2023 20: 10
        To be honest, I like another model on the topic more - with a pig in a stroller.
        1. +3
          2 May 2023 21: 23
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          with a pig in a stroller.

          in a carriage Bandera or Shukhevych?!
  8. +5
    2 May 2023 10: 08
    And I found people who at 41 saw dead motorcyclists near Moscow. True, not in Leningradka in Khimki. , but on Volokolamka. A friend's grandmother told in the distant 80 how the whole village saw them ..
  9. +7
    2 May 2023 10: 18
    Even under Brezhnev, already at that time, middle-aged people who lived in the area of ​​​​the Moscow Northern River Station (MSRV) told me quite confidently that some motorcycles once slipped to the bunker (moreover, it was a full-fledged bunker, with telephone communication, and not an armored cap), which was installed just south of the current MSRV berth 16, in the area of ​​Kirpichnaya Bay. Moreover, their appearance was not associated with a panic in mid-October, but was attributed to the end of November or even to the beginning of December. It was said that three or four motorcycles jumped out from somewhere to the bridge across the canal to them. Moscow, and the guards of the bridge, apparently mistaking them for their own, let them through. But when the motorcyclists, having crossed the bridge, realized where they had drifted, they turned around sharply and decided to cross the bridge again, the protection of the bridge did not blunder. In short, the motorcyclists failed to break through the bridge back. Someone was slaughtered there. And the rest (who spoke about two, who about three, but no more) motorcyclists, apparently in complete panic, rushed from the bridge towards the MSRV. But most likely the protection of the bridge by phone warned the bunker. And the personnel of the bunker was already at the ready. They put everyone.
    The ruins of the bunker could be seen back in the late 1980s.
    By the way, there was also a submarine parking lot. I saw the submarine personally, before the Olympics-80. Then she was removed.
    PS The only logical explanation "for" such an event may be that at that time we also had a lot of motorcyclists flying back and forth. Our and German motorcyclists were dressed in similar leather coats. So the Germans were taken for their own. Therefore, this case was not particularly advertised.
    Why is it not reflected in German documents? Until because the German command never found out where several of their motorcyclists died. Against the background of general German losses near Moscow, this is not surprising.
    1. +12
      2 May 2023 11: 01
      So the Germans were taken for their own.
      Rather, eyewitnesses mistook their own for the Germans - hence the rumors
    2. +1
      3 May 2023 09: 11
      At work, we had a friend who was born about a little after the war, according to him, the burnt hulls of two "Lukhs" in his childhood were lying in ravines a little further than the Khovrino station. He twisted some details from there and made a self-propelled gun, after a shot from which his father carved a geometry teacher so that he could not sit for a week.
      And if we assume that the burnt "Lukhs" were simply dropped or thrown off the railway platform when they were being transported to scrap metal? Many people could see them there, so the legend began.
      The reconnaissance patrol could seep through the front line only there,

      The comrade believed that the Germans drove along the railroad tracks
  10. +5
    2 May 2023 10: 45
    Quote: Nikolai Malyugin
    Another myth debunked and what has changed. Sudoplatov is also not the ultimate truth. He said a lot of things. And the fact that we exported tons of gold from Spain. We often fall for the bait of unguarded historians. if he sang in German. Then everything would be clearer. But everything outweighs films about the Soviet past, where people are shown from the worst side. Allegedly, they are mired in drunkenness and dirt. And you think about the creators of these films - So that you live like this how you show our people.

    Murka what are you dissatisfied with again
    That you furrowed your brow again
    So say.......
    What am I talking about?
  11. +8
    2 May 2023 10: 55
    An interesting topic, I liked the article more than not.
    However, I note that the methodology of the author's research, in my opinion, is very vulnerable to criticism. Here is an example of this thesis:
    If the Nazis really appeared on the bridge over the Khimki reservoir near the village of Khimki on 16.10.41/XNUMX/XNUMX, then they did not fall from heaven, but came along the roads from some place where the fighting was going on. Therefore, the assessment of the probability of their appearance in Khimki comes down to an assessment of the probability of their movement along certain routes, originating from the places of the battles taking place that day.

    Why combat? Just, if there are battles in some area, it means that it was there that the Germans were stopped and it was there that they could not get through. The reconnaissance patrol could seep through the front line only where our troops were not there at that moment, which means that, reconstructing the hypothetical route of the Germans to the bridge, it is precisely those places where there were no battles that should be considered its possible starting point.
    And why does the author consider options for the movement of the Germans only along the highway? As far as I understand, there was a well-developed road network in this area and one can move along country roads in almost any direction. In the conditions of the German offensive and the absence of a continuous stable front line, there were a lot of places where the German reconnaissance patrol could slip into our conditional rear.
    So to the question "could the Germans get to this bridge?" I would answer unequivocally: theoretically yes - they could.
    Whether they got there is another question.
    And here, in the place of the author, I would first of all try to establish the military personnel of which particular unit were at the bridge that day and whether there is information about the introduction of hostilities in the documents of this unit - losses, consumption of cartridges, collected trophies. No? Consider other options. Maybe another hour or another date? One thing is clear: the destruction of the German reconnaissance group would certainly have been reflected in our reports.
    I fully share the author's skepticism regarding memoirs and memoirs. They are subjective, and even the most honest memoirist can make mistakes, but an absolutely honest memoirist is as rare as Bigfoot. Therefore, hope only for the archives. And until some meticulous archival worm unearths some document telling us that there was a battle at the bridge, we will have to consider this battle as a myth.
    1. 0
      5 May 2023 20: 16
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      on country roads you can move in almost any direction. In the conditions of the German offensive and the absence of a continuous stable front line, there were a lot of places where the German reconnaissance patrol could slip into our conditional rear.

      In winter, on country roads? And our road services, especially for the Germans, cleared these roads from snow wassat
      Have you ever ridden in the snow on a motorcycle in winter? Please note that a motorcycle with a sidecar does not fall into a car rut.
  12. +6
    2 May 2023 11: 32
    The above "analysis" is the same myth only from the side. 100 km or 50 km on the highway for reconnaissance on motorcycles - no more than 2 hours. The direction can be any, the Germans with tactical intelligence looked first of all at the weak points of the defense, and did not move strictly to the east according to the compass. The presence of troops in the areas of movement is by no means a guarantee of trapping and destroying intelligence, especially in the autumn of 41 - a complete mess, close to panic.
    Finding out whether there were battles at the Khimki bridge is a task to be solved in the archive. But I think that combat reports from this area have not yet been declassified.
    1. +10
      2 May 2023 12: 10
      The above "analysis" is the same myth only from the side. 100 km or 50 km on the highway for reconnaissance on motorcycles - no more than 2 hours.
      The question is not how many hours of travel along the highway from Kalinin to Moscow, but:
      1) What was the purpose of this move? (German motorcyclists just didn’t ride on the roads);
      2) the ability to drive more than 100 km along the roads where the spacecraft troops were moving, and there were also checkpoints
      But I think that combat reports from this area have not yet been declassified.
      in the same way, it can be assumed that the facts of the contact of the government of the Russian Federation with aliens have not yet been declassified.
      As one of my supervisors used to say: ready to consider any of your proposals, even the craziest ones. laughing
      1. +2
        2 May 2023 14: 09
        Checkpoints in the fall of 41 were, to put it mildly, not everywhere.

        "Zhukov, who advanced to clarify the situation on Stalin's instructions in the Yukhnov region, did not meet a single combat-ready formation of the Red Army on his way from Moscow to Medyn, with the exception of two signalmen in the area of ​​the Obninskoye substation, not far from which the headquarters of the Reserve Front was located"

        Now from Moscow to Medyn 130 km in a straight line. You can, of course, think that Zhukov could drive, but in the other direction on motorcycles, well, just no way)

        As for the archive of secret documents, even what has been declassified has not yet been practically investigated. And far from everything has been declassified, it depends on the neck.
        1. +5
          2 May 2023 14: 22
          Quote: alovrov
          And far from everything has been declassified, it depends on the neck.
          In fact, the possibility of declassification does not depend on the stamp, but mainly on the content of the document and the need for its declassification.
    2. +5
      2 May 2023 12: 25
      Can you imagine how they could drive along Leningradka through Klin, Solnechnogorsk, Kryukovo, which was not taken then! through many villages. They didn't travel through the desert.
  13. +5
    2 May 2023 11: 38
    Fear has big eyes, against the background of panic, they could easily mistake their own for the Germans, especially from afar. That's where the rumors spread. Well, plus the journalists decided to create another sensation. Without checking and issuing in circulation. It's like many have seen about UFOs, but they cannot document it.
    1. +1
      3 May 2023 09: 17
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      against the backdrop of panic, they could easily have mistaken their own for the Germans, especially from afar

      Also a good version. Motorcycles in the USSR were licensed German, captured weapons were at least used by scouts, dusty form, speed, inattention of the witness - that's the rumor. If the soldiers now and then shoot at their own, that the losses from "friendly fire" among the Americans in Okinawa were more than 10 percent, then the civilians could confuse anything.
  14. +4
    2 May 2023 12: 39
    "July 14, 1968 in the press organ of the Moscow industrial and rural regional committees of the CPSU newspaper" Leninskoe Znamya "". In 1968, there was no division into industrial and rural regional committees. It did not exist for long, in 1962-1964.
    1. +5
      2 May 2023 14: 41
      You are right, in 1968 the Lenin Banner was already an organ of the Moscow Regional Committee of the CPSU and the Moscow Regional Council of Workers' Deputies
  15. +1
    2 May 2023 14: 05
    Not a single document of the period 1941-1942, where this event would be reflected, has not been made public to this day. Colorful stories about the raid of brave German motorcyclists are based only on the personal memories of "eyewitnesses" and "direct participants"


    The biggest sin of the "archival diggers" of the zero-tenths is the introduction of such views into the public consciousness. Hades will reward them according to their deserts. That is, memoirs and personal testimonies, these are unreliable sources, and they must be approached critically (which is obvious), but here are the documents compiled by the same, and sometimes the same people as the memoirs, this is the gospel, and therefore they must be believed unconditionally. And as a result - uncritical hyperpositivism, which boils down to the fact that if an event is not reflected in an official document, then it did not exist.

    There are no facts in the article that refute the eyewitness accounts. This does not mean that the author is wrong and his conclusion is incorrect. But not always speculative constructions, impeccable logic and "common sense" can replace knowledge of what really happened. The JBD of formations is an important source, but such documents, by definition, are not intended to reflect the actions of an enemy reconnaissance squad-platoon. How does the fact that there were German positions 17 km from Moscow for several days contradict the fact that a German reconnaissance unit could approach for a couple of hours at a distance of 8 km from Moscow? And, even if the fact of the absence (or short-term fleeting presence) of a couple of dozen German soldiers in Khimki is reliably established, how does it change the picture of the Battle for Moscow and the Second World War? What is he talking about? What is the relevance?
    1. +5
      2 May 2023 16: 51
      Quote: Force Multiplier
      The biggest sin of the "archival diggers" of the zero-tenths is the introduction of such views into the public consciousness. Hades will reward them according to their deserts. That is, memoirs and personal testimonies, these are unreliable sources, and they must be approached critically (which is obvious), but here are the documents compiled by the same, and sometimes the same people as the memoirs, this is the gospel, and therefore they must be believed unconditionally.

      Who of the "archival diggers" wrote this? belay
      Archival diggers just write that any single documents require cross-checking - up, down and neighbors / opponents in the same place and at the same time.
      I have already cited the post as an example. Ulanov, where he talked about the description of one liberation of the city according to the documents of the two branches of the military who participated in it. The infantry wrote that she did everything, and the tanks ... well, there were a couple of times somewhere. The tankers in their reports rested on the fact that they had liberated the city, and the infantry ... the infantry helped. In general, two parallel reality of documents, which the researcher must match.
      And it is possible that in the German archives there is also a third reality, in which the Bolshevik attack was repulsed with heavy losses for the attackers, but then the faithful sons of the Reich were forced to straighten the front line for tactical reasons. smile
      1. +3
        2 May 2023 19: 15
        I'm not talking about that at all. Who launched the idea to the masses that memoirs are a "second-class" source, and all the truth is in the documents? It was the "archival diggers" who flaunted before the digitization of the archives in all forums, by the fact that they read the original documents, and all discrepancies with the memoirs were unambiguously interpreted in favor of 2x. The historian works with all available sources, not just the one they like best or seems to be the most reliable. In the same way, criticism of sources should not be selective. Archival documents also need to be subjected to it, for articles "about tanks / aircraft / ships" at least at the level of "who wrote, for what purpose he wrote, for whom he wrote."

        Source criticism and cross-checking are not the same thing. Your example suggests that Ulanov, at least at the time of the story, did not understand the specifics of the sources. The activity of the headquarters of this unit will be displayed in the railway department of the headquarters of the infantry unit. The operational summary will reflect changes in the situation for a certain period. Accordingly, the same for the tank unit. That is, the tankers should not have any mention of the actions of the infantry and vice versa. Or, for example, in the KTB of the operational department of the 2nd TD there should not be a detailed description of the combat operations of the division and, accordingly, a description of the battle at Dubosekovo. Oddly enough for the "diggers", it reflects the activities of the operational department of the division. And so on
        1. 0
          4 May 2023 12: 30
          Quote: Force Multiplier
          I'm not talking about that at all. Who launched the idea to the masses that memoirs are a "second-class" source, and all the truth is in the documents?

          This is how memoirs are written after the war. And, if the author wants to see them published, then they must comply with the current ideological and official-historical guidelines. Plus, memoirs traditionally serve as a means of whitewashing and self-praise of the author. Well, and most importantly, the author is not responsible for the memoirs, unlike documents signed by him. smile
          The result is endless stories about the overcoming of an ubermenshe over the crowds of evil Russians, the victory over which was practically in the hands of the author, but, as always, the Fuhrer / thaw / frosts / Allies / the next human wave of Russians intervened at the wrong time. At the same time, the authors, as a rule, are not embarrassed by the fact that endless victories lead to retreats.
          And on the other hand, the same memoirs are published, strictly following the official history and the current line of the party. Said - the greatest tank battle that ended in victory - and in all memoirs it will be so. For no one wants to argue with GlavPUR and Marshal BTV. And how famously memoirs are edited when the party line is changed - remember the sudden appearance of "Colonel Brezhnev" in Zhukov's memoirs? wink
          So it turns out that documents for archival researchers are considered more reliable than the tales of the grandfather of GlavPUR or the stories "how they filled us with meat." Fortunately, the authors of the memoirs are constantly substituted, inserting episodes into the memoirs that directly contradict the documents behind their own signatures. Here and Popel with Dubno, who was liberated in his memoirs (according to his report, they took only the southern outskirts), and Raus with captured by the Bolshevik airfield (according to the report, the group sent to capture was stopped by the BSHU of aviation from this very airfield), and Grabin with several hundred ZIS-6s sent for remelting (according to the report, only 5 guns were made), and Guderian with T-34s flying through the mud all-piercing guns (although according to his official letter in the fall of 1941 - The Soviet T-34 tank is a typical example of backward Bolshevik technology. This tank cannot be compared with the best examples of our tanks, made by the faithful sons of the Reich and who have repeatedly proven their superiority.).
          1. 0
            5 May 2023 00: 51
            Documents are also drawn up with an eye to current ideological attitudes and, obviously, serve as a means of whitewashing and self-praise of the compilers. Who do not spare adversaries in the same way as the authors of memoirs (actually, these are the same people or people with the same way of thinking). Where does this whole (rather boring) genre about overbranding on earth in the sky and on the sea originate.
            Many documents are also drawn up long after the events. All these railroad cars are decorated with colored pencils, etc. After all, they are compiled not for an objective and independent fixation of events, but "for history." It is in the movie “boat” that Lehmann-Willenbrock writes on a piece of KTB paper, drawing the word “Rückmarsch” with a simple pencil. Perhaps this was the case, Buchheim knows better, but look at how the same KTB of submarines look, including this campaign. It is clear that all this was written on the shore, the reality, of course, was embellished, and what actually happened there is not known for certain. That is, the book and document complement each other, not contradict each other. Given that the picture of reality can be distorted both in KTB and in memoirs. From what I read relatively recently and bears a clear shade of hoodlit - the Gefechtsbericht of Scharnhorst, designed in a brochure, describing the reflection of air raids on February 12, 1942, is actually a little book - contents, introduction, sections. Or the Gefechtsbericht of anti-aircraft gunners who covered Tirpitz in the summer of 1944, where the time of opening and ceasefire by individual batteries is indicated to the nearest second. Such hyper-detailing betrays someone's flight of fancy. The report of Tirpitz himself about the same raid is about 15 pages, despite the fact that the ship stood still and was hidden by a smoke screen. Both reports were filed (dated) about 10 days after the raid, which, in some way, makes them memoirs, albeit documented
  16. +5
    2 May 2023 14: 30
    Small clarification. In Zelenograd, about 800 people were buried under "Bayonets". Of these, the names of about half are known. When the idea arose to write these names on the monument, the question arose of what to do with people whose names are unknown. We decided to leave everything as it is. A complete list of famous names is contained in a specially published book, which is stored in the Zelenograd Museum.
  17. +4
    2 May 2023 14: 33
    [/ quote] “Even from a young age, I was convinced that there is no event that the newspaper would truthfully tell about ...”
    George Orwell. Remembering the war in Spain[quote]

    Two people participating in an event, but being in different places of the event, can describe this event in different ways. Two people who have received information about an event from different sources will describe this event in different ways.
    Orwell observed the war in Spain from his own, geographical, political, etc. position, and why did he take that his story about the war in Spain is the most truthful?
    Yes, I question whether the newspaper, whatever it is, is truthfully telling us the story of the event. For the newspaper is a mouthpiece of propaganda and therefore pursues a completely different goal than to convey to us the truth about the event. Even though it happens. But Orwell is also a propagandist, because he conveys to us HIS truth and where is the confidence that it is objective.
    About the article. Thanks to the author. He did not pursue any other goal than conveying to us the historical truth.
  18. +3
    2 May 2023 14: 46
    Quote: Force Multiplier
    How does the fact that there were German positions 17 km from Moscow for several days contradict the fact that a German reconnaissance unit could approach for a couple of hours at a distance of 8 km from Moscow?
    And who claimed that it contradicts? what
    1. +1
      2 May 2023 18: 48
      the rumor about the coming of the Germans to Khimki... allows us to state with a probability close to 100% that this colorful story is just one of the myths
      1. 0
        2 May 2023 22: 44
        Force Multiplier, are you demagogy?
        The question is: where in the text did you manage to see the statement that the fact that there were German positions 17 km from Moscow for several days contradicts the fact that a German reconnaissance unit could approach for a couple of hours at a distance of 8 km from Moscow?

        There is no such thing - you dreamed
        1. +1
          4 May 2023 00: 36
          Lewww, it was you who took up the demagogy. And now you are arguing with yourself, trying to refute your own conclusion. So, the question is for you: do you admit a significant probability that the Germans were in Khimki, or is this "one of the myths"?
          1. 0
            4 May 2023 19: 03
            My dear, I am not trying to refute anything, and only urge you to carefully read what is written in the article.
            a question for you: do you admit a significant probability that the Germans were in Khimki, or is this "one of the myths"?
            Have you read the article?
            There is an answer to this question: THE APPEARANCE OF GERMAN MOTORCYCLISTS ON THE KHIMKINSKY AUTO BRIDGE IS A MYTH - one of the panic rumors, born on October 16, 1941.
            What is incomprehensible here?
            It is possible that some on foot German reconnaissance group 30.11 or 01.12. was approaching the city of Khimki - they came unnoticed and left unnoticed.
            1. 0
              4 May 2023 23: 55
              You don't have to be so nervous. The article has this answer:
              rumor about the coming of the Germans to Khimki ... just one of the myths

              Not motorcyclists, but Germans in general. Now your position is clearer
              1. 0
                5 May 2023 10: 54
                The article has this answer:

                Did you not have enough strength to comprehend the next paragraph after this?
                Not a single document of the period 1941-1942, where this event would be reflected, has not been made public to this day. Colorful stories about the raid of the brave German motorcyclists rest only on the personal recollections of "eyewitnesses" and "direct participants".
                1. 0
                  6 May 2023 00: 45
                  Do you have the strength to clearly and clearly formulate your thoughts? Because in the title of the article "Germans" and in the output "Germans", and in the text itself it is not only about motorcyclists
                  1. 0
                    6 May 2023 14: 45
                    Everything in the article is formulated very clearly, you just need to read thoughtfully, comprehending what you read, and not gallop jumping over the lines
                    1. 0
                      6 May 2023 16: 08
                      You need to write articles thoughtfully, comprehending what is written, because in the text you say one thing, and in the comments another
  19. 0
    2 May 2023 16: 16
    A small probability of the appearance in the vicinity of the city of Khimki of a German reconnaissance patrol is only on the evening of November 30, when the Nazis occupied the village of Krasnaya Polyana and located just south of the village of Katyushki.
    Correct, Krasnaya Polyana, is located north of the village of Katyushki. To the south, to this day, there is a forest, formerly a forest.
    1. +1
      2 May 2023 17: 25
      So it is written about that: pos. Krasnaya Polyana was located north of the village of Katyushki, therefore the village of Katyushki was located south of the village. Krasnaya Polyana
      the Nazis occupied the village of Krasnaya Polyana and located just south of the village of Katyushki.
  20. +5
    2 May 2023 19: 10
    The possibility of a breakthrough of the German reconnaissance patrol from this direction is completely excluded: in those days, along the Leningradskoye sh. spacecraft equipment and troops moved in inexhaustible streams.

    I live in Lobnya, from where the Germans began their retreat in December 1941. Sheremetyevo Airport began to be built around 1953. The Germans broke through to Lobnya from Krasnaya Polyana through the villages of Gorki Kiovskie and Katyushki. That is, the Germans were advancing on Lobnya from the west. Surely they tried to break through in a straight line to Moscow through Khimki. The bridge across the canal at Khlebnikovo was blocked by an armored train firing at the Germans from closed positions. To break past him through the crossing in December 1941 in the Khlebnikovo area, motorcyclists could not have moved 500 meters in the line of sight from the armored train along the road running along the railway. At Lobnya, the Germans ran into an artillery screen and marine brigades. A German reconnaissance group seized a booth at the Lobnensky crossing over the Savelovskaya railway at night. This was the last success of the Germans near Moscow. On the same night, the Germans at the crossing were counterattacked and killed. Moreover, in a battle with a reconnaissance group, the commissar of the 1st artillery division of the 896th artillery regiment Agapov died. But at this point there was the future army commander Chistyakov. It was near the crossing that he severely suppressed the panic that arose in the Marine Corps brigade, it seems that even Bulganin went to the Lobnya region to deal with the situation. At Khimki, Rokossovsky led the defense, apparently there was more order and the destruction of German intelligence was considered an insignificant fact. Most likely, German intelligence was indeed able to break through to the bridge over the canal in Khimki in early December, and it is very likely that the German command issued an order to conduct reconnaissance of crossings across the Moscow Canal. When Vlasov's army through Krasnaya Polyana and Kryukovo began to push the Germans to the west, they were forced to start retreating along the Leningrad highway, fearing encirclement. That is, along the Leningrad highway, the Germans broke through a little further south than the city of Lobnya is now located. During the war, there were several houses in its place. In any case, in order to break through from Krasnaya Polyana to the Leningrad Highway, the Germans had to go about a little more than 5 km.
  21. +1
    2 May 2023 22: 57
    Quote: gsev
    That is, the Germans were advancing on Lobnya from the west. Surely they tried to break through in a straight line to Moscow through Khimki.
    You are mistaken, this German group did not have the task of breaking through to Khimki.
    I advise you to read the books of Vasily Karasev Krasnaya Polyana and Rogachevskoe highway.
    That is, along the Leningrad highway, the Germans broke through a little further south than the city of Lobnya is now located.
    not supported by documents
    In any case, in order to break through from Krasnaya Polyana to the Leningrad Highway, the Germans had to go about a little more than 5 km.
    You are mistaken, even from the modern western border of Lobnya to Leningradskoe sh. in a straight line about 8 km.
    In 41 from the village. Krasnaya Polyana to Len. sh. it was definitely more than 10 km along the roads, but within the framework of the article it doesn’t matter, the “Krasnopolyansk” Germans did not plan to advance in the direction of Khimki, therefore, reconnaissance by a motorized reconnaissance patrol in this direction was not required
    1. +1
      3 May 2023 22: 54
      Quote: Lewww
      The "Krasnopolyansk" Germans did not plan to advance in the direction of Khimki, therefore, reconnaissance by a motorized reconnaissance patrol in this direction was not required

      The Germans were in Poyapkovo, Isakovo and Lunev. From Isakov to Leningrad highway less than 5 km. It would be extremely tempting to take this highway at least under fire control. In any case, the Germans were supposed to send reconnaissance in this direction or flanking guards. Another thing is that the Germans appeared in the area on November 30-December 1, 1941, and on December 2, the Red Army began to occupy the gray zone to organize a counterattack on Krasnaya Polyana. On December 2, a regiment of the Soviet army was already concentrated in Nosovo between Katyushki and Isakovo.
  22. 0
    2 May 2023 23: 27
    Not essential. 20 km there, 20 km here...
  23. 0
    2 May 2023 23: 36
    Quote: gsev
    At Khimki, Rokossovsky led the defense, apparently there was more order and the destruction of German intelligence was considered an insignificant fact. Most likely, German intelligence was indeed able to break through to the bridge over the canal in Khimki in early December
    You are wrong here too.
    The defense of the district of Khimki, starting from 1.12, was assigned to units of 20 A under the command of Vlasov. The headquarters of this army was located in a high-rise building on the Leningradskoye sh. 16. Prior to this, the defense of Khimki did not exist.
    But the troops in Khimki were, as far as I remember, on 29.11. at st. Khimki has already begun to arrive and unload military trains
    1. 0
      3 May 2023 23: 35
      Quote: Lewww
      You are wrong here too.
      The defense of the district of Khimki, starting from 1.12, was assigned to units of 20 A under the command of Vlasov.

      The Germans broke through to Krasnaya Polyana at the junction of the 16th Army of Rokossovsky and the 30th Army of Lelyushenko. Moreover, if the Germans had an extra motorized infantry battalion with a company of tanks, they could go out on December 1 to the Leningrad Highway and try to cut off the troops of the 16th Army defending Kryukovo from the supply lines. Critical events took place on November 30-December 1. It was on these days that the Germans were late with a breakthrough to Moscow, and the General Staff managed to organize the defense. And now the story looks smooth. Chistyakov in the defense of Moscow is simply named commander of the 64th Marine Brigade. However, he was sent to inspect it at the moment of a breakthrough to the positions of this brigade of German tanks and motorized infantry. He stopped the panic with an iron fist and replaced the former commander of this brigade, Samohvatov. He then received an impossible order to free White Rust. Most of the Marines did not know how to ski on the snow, and the officers of the brigade simply told Chistyakov that they were ready to die in the upcoming battle. Chistyakov found skiers in Moscow in a few hours and conducted ski training in his brigade. Bely Rast was liberated, albeit with heavy losses, but the 64th brigade forced the surviving Germans to flee through the snow under fire to the Rogachev highway.
      1. +1
        4 May 2023 12: 32
        The Germans broke through to Krasnaya Polyana at the junction of the 16th Army of Rokossovsky and the 30th Army of Lelyushenko.
        You are confusing, they broke through from the northwest of MUSHETSKOYE, there was no junction there.
        if the Germans had an extra motorized infantry battalion with a company of tanks, they could go to the Leningrad highway on December 1 and try to cut off the troops of the 16th army defending Kryukovo
        If not for frost, then our oats would have grown to heaven laughing
        It was on these days that the Germans were late with a breakthrough to Moscow
        The Germans did not have the task of breaking through to Moscow, they had an order to SURROUND the city, but not to enter it.
        It was to accomplish this task that the group that advanced along the Rogachevskoe sh. was supposed to go not to Khimki, but to Dmitrovskoe sh. and move further east
        1. 0
          6 May 2023 07: 41
          Correct remark. The Germans were moving towards the Dmitrov highway. And they moved in a tank column to the crossing of the railway to Dubna. In the area of ​​​​the crossing, they were stopped by a battery of anti-aircraft guns under the command of Shadunts. There were no more Soviet troops behind this battery. The Germans could go to the Dmitrov highway and come straight to the Kremlin. Somewhere I read that speaking at the Academy. Frunze after the war, Zhukov said that the fate of Moscow was decided at the crossing to Lobnya.
          1. 0
            6 May 2023 14: 50
            The Germans could go to Dmitrovskoye Highway and come straight to the Kremlin
            Well, it's unlikely, by 30.11. near Moscow Dmitrovskoe sh. blocked the border of the MZO
            And the German offensive had already run out of steam by that time.
  24. -2
    2 May 2023 23: 37
    It is especially amusing that the "refutation of the myths" of 1941 followed in May 2023, 60 years later.
    It’s good that Lev Tyurin does not claim to be an eyewitness and a participant in the defense of Moscow, therefore he knows the truth)))))
  25. 0
    3 May 2023 11: 53
    Well-written and well-argued. But there is one "BUT". This "but" is called "hype". And for his sake, such myths will be composed that medicine will let go of its hands in impotence.
    And the author - many thanks for the work to analyze and summarize the information.
  26. 0
    3 May 2023 14: 28
    That's why I love VO - there are such interesting articles that they make you think, and go into the archives yourself and study the topic.
    Author, thank you very much!
  27. 0
    4 May 2023 13: 00
    As for the bank launched by journalists in the USSR about German motorcycles ... With the death of Stalin, the USSR project died, then it rotted and decayed for a long time in the capitals of all friendly republics, until it decayed in 91 and the rotten skeleton collapsed. This is not an insult - a statement of the historical process.

    With such rumors launched by the special services and journalists working for them, everything was warmed up.
    Touchstones were thrown into the whirlpool of human discussions and the reaction of the population was tested. I will mention a detailed reception, from a personal point of view, in 86-87, at the dawn of perestroika and glasnost.
  28. 0
    6 May 2023 19: 22
    How incomprehensible it could be. If it was so easy for the White Guards to defeat the Red Country and return to reign again, then it is quite possible that the Germans achieved their goal with the help of the White Guards and they reached the Urals and even further. But there the Germans fell into fornication and all died out, while the White Guards remained alive.
  29. +1
    9 May 2023 16: 34
    I live not far from Khimki and I know a little about the surroundings and the history of these regions. Therefore, I will try to clarify some controversial points in the article.
    The author considers the options for the Germans to reach Khimki from the West and North-West, without paying attention to the Northern direction. The Sheremetyevo airfield was built after the war, and in 41 there was a rather extensive Sheremetyevo forest, which turned into Khimki.
    The Germans moved along the Rogachev highway in the direction of the Khlebnikovsky bridge, occupied part of Lobnya, and stopped them near the crossing over the Savelovskaya railway.
    In Khlebnikovo, they concentrated before the onset of part 20A (133msd).
    In the Sheremetyevsky forest, separate groups of fascists who had leaked from Krasnaya Polyana were finished off. In the Sheremetyevsky forest, the burial place of the Germans in the swamp near Sh-1 has been preserved. From there, it's a stone's throw to Khimki via Klyazma and Svistukha.
    There used to be trenches on the right bank of the Klyazma, just next to the bridge over the river, where the third line of defense of Moscow passed. Here, stray motorcyclists could well drop in and be destroyed, and then everything was overgrown with rumors and fairy tales. Although, of course, only documentary evidence can be undoubted evidence, although the railways were not always conducted regularly and scrupulously.
    It is necessary to study the events of those times, it is interesting, but one must understand that the main thing is to preserve and transmit the memory of the people who defended our country.
    1. 0
      11 May 2023 18: 02
      The Germans moved along the Rogachev highway in the direction of the Khlebnikovsky bridge, occupied part of Lobnya,
      you are mistaken, they were moving east to Eremino
      In Khlebnikovo, they concentrated before the onset of part 20A (133msd).
      you are mistaken, in the composition of 20 A there was no 133 MSD
      In the Sheremetyevsky forest, the burial place of the Germans in the swamp near Sh-1 has been preserved. From there, it's a stone's throw to Khimki via Klyazma and Svistukha.
      at hand does not mean that TV Khimki has definitely arrived by a German reconnaissance patrol on motorcycles.
      There used to be trenches on the right bank of the Klyazma, just next to the bridge over the river, where the third line of defense of Moscow passed. That's where stray motorcyclists could well drop in
      purely hypothetical
  30. 0
    10 May 2023 19: 33
    Is it possible to believe what they write here after everything they said and wrote, but I want to believe. Although he believed more in those who fought, went on the attack and shoulder-deep in water, ice around, built bridges. It was still, as one said, who was called up for service from the beginning of the war and was kicked out of the army when he served to the end in China. He was in the hospital for about a month with diarrhea from the food they were given. Then they found a cook who was from Ukraine. The supply chief was given three years in prison. Only because the war ended did they not shoot him. Arrived like a sliver in 1953. At home, his wife put him on his feet. He was amazing because when he hit a glass of vodka, sometimes he suddenly remembered something. We thought it wasn't true. But then a former major, a sports instructor, appeared at our school, and we learned from him that Oleksa, that was his name, was telling the truth. But in those places where he had to be, it was much worse. There were many Japanese there. But they were also taught to surrender, even though they were with swords.
  31. 0
    23 June 2023 11: 20
    25.11.1941/45/50 ours blocked the defense line near the village. Zakharovo road Mikhailov-Ryazan. But the German patrol on motorcycles still ended up at the station. Stenkino (15 km directly), and with winding along country roads far beyond 20 km. Logic cannot be found in the actions of the German watch, but this fact has been recorded. The second patrol on motorcycles was discovered much earlier, XNUMX km on the road. In with. Plakhino more than XNUMX km. a German motorcycle patrol also visited from the defense line. So everything cannot be categorically ruled out. Refueling and road conditions allowed - we drove to those places until they were discovered and fired upon.
  32. 0
    8 July 2023 09: 41
    We conclude. Everything, as in a joke: Sailor-sailor, I heard a new naval joke has appeared! There is a clipper on the sea, a skipper on the clipper, the skipper has a gonorrhea! In the evening, to the captain: a schooner is walking along the sea, a boatswain is on the schooner, the boatswain has syphilis! laughing
  33. 0
    15 October 2023 22: 27
    Another story that requires careful study is the undermining of reservoir dams in the area of ​​the Istra and Khimki reservoirs during the same period. Such information is available on the Mosvodokanal website, and a picture even emerges that they were blown up 2 times - first to stop the German advance by Soviet troops, and then by the Germans to stop Soviet troops. So how was this historically correct?