The Chairman of the US Chiefs of Staff called the approximate number of Wagner PMCs near Artemovsk

Currently, about 6 professional fighters of the PMC "Wagner" and about 20-30 thousand "recruits" (recruits) of this organization are fighting in Artemovsk (Bakhmut) and its environs. This estimate of the number of “Wagnerites” in the Artemovsky direction was given by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the US Armed Forces, General Mark Milley, CNN reports.

Milli spoke about the number of Wagner PMCs near Artemovsk when talking to US congressmen from the House Armed Forces Committee. Thus, the American general estimates the total number of "musicians" involved in the Artemovsk direction at 26-36 thousand people.

About 20-30 thousand recruits, Milli said that these people are often recruited from places of deprivation of liberty. However, almost from the very beginning, this did not hide the leadership of the PMC.

It is interesting that General Milli also spoke about the "huge losses" of PMCs near Artemovsk. But they do not really correlate with the number of “Wagnerites” he voiced. Although PMC Wagner attack aircraft operate in the most dangerous areas, often fighting with superior enemy forces, it is unlikely that their losses are higher than those of the mobilized Ukrainian regular armed forces.

It should be noted that the Ukrainian formations are in Artemovsk and its environs in a very difficult situation. Now this is already recognized by the President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky, who speaks of catastrophic consequences for Kyiv in the event of the defeat of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in Artemivsk.

Comments

[Normann]

The losses of the attacking side are always several times higher than those of the defenders, unless, of course, something heavy is used.

[Adrian28]

unless, of course, something heavy is used.

A sledgehammer is a heavy thing.

[Tusv]

Quote: Normann

The losses of the attacking side are always several times higher than those of the defenders, unless, of course, something heavy is used.

Well, it's in infantry combat. And then they shoot you first with artillery, then the tank pulls up and finishes off with grenade launchers. What is the loss ratio? Now what do the Yankees say - 26-36 thousand Musicians. Initially, the garrison of the Armed Forces of Ukraine consisted of 40 thousand bayonets and with constant rotation

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Tusv

And then they shoot you first with artillery, then the tank pulls up and finishes off with grenade launchers.

On the other side, there are also grenade launchers and tanks. Plus equipped positions in residential buildings. And enough motivated troops.

[Tusv]

Quote: Ingvar 72

On the other side, there are also grenade launchers and tanks. Plus equipped positions in residential buildings. And enough motivated troops.

Undoubtedly. There are tanks and grenade launchers and they fight skillfully. With bitterness. Nevertheless, already 70% of Artemovsk under Wagner and a horseshoe, well, very unpleasant for the Armed Forces of Ukraine

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Tusv

Nevertheless, already 70% of Artemovsk under Wagner and a horseshoe, well, very unpleasant for the Armed Forces of Ukraine

Fact. But these 70% are given to us with great bloodshed, no matter what the propagandists say.
As for the horseshoe, I'm waiting for some kind of trick from the enemy. The enemy is accumulating strength, and where he will shoot is not yet known. And what ours will hold back is also not known. But the feeling is not good.

[Tusv]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Fact. But these 70% are given to us with a lot of blood

Based on the fact that women don’t give birth so much and there are no places in the churchyard. (The same Prigozhin takes places in city cemeteries with a fight) The losses are monstrous

[Vincent price]

I wonder why your comment is downvoted? Don't believe? Or they prefer to live in their own mania.

[Seraphimamur]

Vinsent Price I will answer your question - CIPSO bots are minus.

[Olga]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Fact. But these 70% are given to us with great bloodshed, no matter what the propagandists say.
As for the horseshoe, I'm waiting for some kind of trick from the enemy. The enemy is accumulating strength, and where he will shoot is not yet known. And what ours will hold back is also not known. But the feeling is not good.

well, how can one not remember M. Zadornov with his miniature "Igooor!" (forgive me Lord).
https://youtu.be/PrupOjs4pCc

[Andrey Semiletov]

On the same site they explained the problems in the offensive,
https://topwar.ru/211291-taktika-dejstvij-pehoty-v-svo.html
If everything were so simple, there would be no "goodwill gestures" and "regroupings"

[Alex_1973]

Normann
The losses of the attacking side are always several times higher than those of the defenders, unless, of course, something heavy is used.

Actually, it's never true! Suvorov near Izmail had fewer soldiers than in a first-class fortress. 31 thousand against 35 thousand Turks, our losses were about 1900 killed and 2700 wounded, the losses of the Turks (only one person left the fortress). And so in all his battles, the ratio of Ushakov's losses is exactly the same. I understand, the example is not quite correct, but nevertheless. Under Borodino, Napoleon's losses were comparable to ours, even though he was advancing. Yes, there are a lot of examples in history when the losses of the attackers are less than those of the defenders.
The SVO shows that the losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are much higher than ours, both in attack and in defense. So there is no need for stamps, the main thing is to fight correctly!

[Old Horseradish]

Do not lie. At Borodino, Napoleon's losses were much less than ours. Due to the massive use of artillery, his guns fired many more shots than the Russians. Learn the mat-part.

[Alex_1973]

Old Horseradish (Old Horseradish)
Do not lie. At Borodino, Napoleon's losses were much less than ours.

Don’t lie yourself, the losses are quite comparable, something like 40 on each side, plus or minus. Kutuzov had a bit more artillery than Napoleon.

[Vladimir 290]

Old horseradish, that Napoleon had already defeated Russia? How cleverly everything turns. How many of these French returned home and why did the name "bistro" appear? Yes, and they lie, of course, that Russian troops entered Paris - this, of course, by analogy with the 1st Ukrainian Front, was the Lviv Cossacks.

[Bromo4er]

Even Western sources give equal losses at the Battle of Borodino. And they have no reason to lie about it.

[Alan81]

yeah, fuck it, it's fucked How can you not understand - it's different. and you are all lying

[YanniKounnar]

Donc puisque les Ukrainiens disent eux-mêmes que l'utilisation de l'artillerie est plusieurs fois supérieure du coté Russe, en fonction de ce que vous venez d'écrire : "...les pertes de Napoleon étaient bien moindres que les en raison de l'utilisation massive de l'artillerie..." l'on peut penser que les pertes russes sont inférieures.

So, since the Ukrainians themselves say that artillery is used several times better on the Russian side, based on what you just wrote: "... Napoleon's losses were much less than ours. Due to the massive use of artillery ..." you can assume that Russian losses are less.
Unless, of course, your reasoning changes depending on what you want to prove

[Normann]

Do you remember 300 more Spartans

The text of your comment is too short and in the opinion of the site administration does not carry useful information.

[Andrey Kotov]

What you all have done is "The losses of the attacking side are always several times higher than those of the defenders." Where always? When? In 1914? Or in 1942? Or where? What is the statistic, where does it come from? Why are you all repeating this nonsense one after another?

[Kurganets-45]

it all comes from what used to be considered (previously it was much earlier than the Middle Ages) that for a guaranteed successful assault on a fortress, the attacker must have 3 times more troops than the garrison of this fortress. By the way, not a word about the loss of the coming one. And so the usual nonsense, I agree with you.

[Petr_Koldunov]

Quote: Kurganets-45

it used to be (before it was much earlier than the Middle Ages) that for a guaranteed successful assault on a fortress, the attacker should have 3 times more troops than the garrison of this fortress

Unfortunately for us (a difficult page in history) - but the defense of the Brest Fortress completely refutes this thesis. The losses of the defending side - the Red Army and the border guards - were FIVE times (and if taken with prisoners, then almost TWENTY times) less than the losses of the storming Germans!

[Cetarb kilk]

Not at all necessary. In the Berlin operation, the losses of the Soviet troops were significantly less than those of the Germans.

[UAZ 452]

And the losses of the Wehrmacht in 1941 were much lower on the offensive than those of the Red Army on the defensive.

[Tusv]

Quote: UAZ 452

And the losses of the Wehrmacht in 1941 were much lower on the offensive than those of the Red Army on the defensive.

Well, of course. The frame hangs at an inaccessible height and corrects the fire. Pieces (Yu-87) work out in positions, then T-3 and T-4 under the cover of Shtug (self-propelled guns) advance. Horror. Who is not killed is shell-shocked

[Havoc]

Quote: Normann

The losses of the attacking side are always several times higher than those of the defenders, unless, of course, something heavy is used.

Where does the data come from, or so, if only the first one will be noted.

[Normann]

Quote: Havoc

Where does the data come from, or so, if only the first one will be noted.

Textbooks are easy to read

[Glory1974]

Textbooks are easy to read

This is not in any textbook, because it is nonsense.

[Havoc]

Quote: Normann

Quote: Havoc

Where does the data come from, or so, if only the first one will be noted.

Textbooks are easy to read

You can name at least one textbook where this is written, I can give you several dozen major operations where the losses of the attackers were much less than the defenders. It all depends on the offensive strategy, if you drive the fighters to machine guns, then the losses will be huge. And if the oporniki are razed to the ground, then the shell-shocked remaining living enemy soldiers can be stormed with virtually no losses.

[KLM77]

Textbooks should not just read, but thinking about what they read! In the same philosophy textbook it is written that there is no truth and everything is relative.

[Bromo4er]

Tell the Americans about it. Have fun with them.

[BASHAR ASAD]

Operation Cottage is the code name for the US Army's operation to liberate Kiska from the Japanese during the Pacific Campaign of World War II. The operation took place from 15 to 24 August 1943. The capture of Kiska Island is a truly unique event in the history of wars, when the Japanese army did not suffer any losses, and the Americans lost more than 300 people killed and wounded. One destroyer was also damaged by hitting a mine. In fact, this operation consisted entirely of "friendly fire", and the American army valiantly liberated the island, on which there was not a single Japanese.

[former soldier]

The losses of the attacking side are always several times higher than those of the defenders, unless, of course, something heavy is used.

If you stupidly run into the attack on machine-gun fire. It is unlikely that Wagner does this.

[SergeyB]

Quote: Normann

The losses of the attacking side are always several times higher than those of the defenders, unless, of course, something heavy is used.

Yes? Always?
OK. But does this mean that when the Armed Forces of Ukraine attacked, in the Kharkiv region and in the Kherson region, their losses were also several times higher than ours?
Or is it different?)

[LMN]

But does this mean that when the Armed Forces of Ukraine attacked, in the Kharkiv region and in the Kherson region, their losses were also several times higher than ours?

No, this does not mean, because the Russian army did not defend itself, but simply left its positions.

No loss. This is a tactic))

[Normann]

Yes? Always?

Yes, almost always. The answer to your question is - have we been building fortified areas there for many years?

[Petr_Koldunov]

Quote: SergeyB

But does this mean that when the Armed Forces of Ukraine attacked, in the Kharkiv region and in the Kherson region, their losses were also several times higher than ours?

Actually, yes. Our losses were really few - because they retreated in time. And ukrozoldatens, who flew out on bandermobiles to our fortified points - ours, when leaving positions, crumbled quite a considerable amount.

[belost79]

With a successful offensive, the losses of the attackers are less than the losses of the defenders and retreaters. If the defense is not broken through, then yes, the attacker suffers heavy losses.

[svarog77]

Textbooks WWI and WWII kakbe are already outdated, new CBO - new realities ...

[Incvizitor]

Apparently, in the Karabakh conflict, Azerbaijan then had a lot of losses, but he attacked, how did he win? They must have thrown meat...

[Muromczev-2015]

It depends on what kind of defense, and depending on what kind of offensive. So far (the Ukrainians themselves, and their owners confirm this), the losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are "huge". According to our and American data, they are 7-9 times larger than Russian ones. Such is the new phenomenon of modern warfare; the sluggish offensive near Donetsk, and the sluggish defense in the Kherson region with Zaporizhia are bearing fruit ...

[storm]

The losses of the attacking side are always several times higher than those of the defenders, unless, of course, something heavy is used.

The losses of the Germans in the summer - autumn of 1941 were 1:10, although they were advancing ...
The losses of the USSR in the operation "Bagration" in 1944 were like 1: 6, then ours were already advancing ...

There are no regularities, there is a commander's talent for leadership, a strategic initiative, a meticulous study of the entire operation and, of course, the training of troops ...

[Pablo Blade]

I often heard this, but no one has ever been able to confirm this with statistics or some kind of reference.
I believe that all these stories are applicable only in the condition of an assault with rifles in the field against pillboxes and trenches equipped with machine guns.

[Kamos8]

Thank God, we have total superiority in artillery and ammunition. Therefore, we can afford to slowly and methodically demolish the redoubts of the Ukrainians, along with the Ukrainian soldiers who have settled there. And only then our assault groups go into battle. Therefore, the losses of the defenders in this case are higher.

[LMN]

..and about 20-30 thousand "recruits"

The difference is only 10.000..
And then they say we have problems with intelligence ..

And 6.000, I'm sure this data has been from the "shaggy years" ...

PS. Milli I note that this is not an "expert", but an acting one .. is it like Gerasimov with us now, like the chief of staff of the Armed Forces?

[Sarboz]

Quote: LMN

..and about 20-30 thousand "recruits"

The difference is only 10.000..
And then they say we have problems with intelligence ..

And 6.000, I'm sure this data has been from the "shaggy years" ...

PS. Milli I note that this is not an "expert", but an acting one .. is it like Gerasimov with us now, like the chief of staff of the Armed Forces?

It seems that Milli has the same sources as Igor Ivanovich Strelkov. He estimates the forces of PMC Wagner near Artyomovsk with approximately the same accuracy plus or minus the ceiling as an "army corps", later specifying, consisting of "18 detachments numbering about a battalion." Apparently they have the same informant.

[LMN]

They don't seem to think at all.

[Egoza]

General Milli also spoke about the "huge losses" of PMCs near Artemovsk. But they do not really correlate with the number of “Wagnerites” he voiced.

The general's calculator broke down when he was counting the losses of the "musicians" and the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Why didn't he say anything about the other side?

[faterdom]

It is known for sure that nothing is known for sure.
Neither the number of Wagner, nor his social composition, nor his losses, especially their ratio with the losses of the enemy.
The result becomes known - the achievement of victory, the horror of the Ukrainian soldiers in front of Wagenr is known, and the Polish-American "volunteers" are afraid of those who survived. "Mozart" American generally signed up in the wrong league of composers and evaporated like a zigzag of lightning smeared with lard.
And the barmaley of Palmyra, and the African Al-Shabab also felt the Wagners, they probably liked it.

[Tusv]

Quote: faterdom

especially their relation to enemy losses.

Prigozhin already announced in February the losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Soledarsky - Bakhmutovsky direction of 100 bayonets. Then they talked about the loss of 000 musician to 1 APU

[voyaka uh]

It is curious that the Ukrainian side also estimates the losses
like 7:1, only in reverse. 7 Wagnerites per fighter of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
It is reasonable to assume that the losses are approximately equal.

[Tusv]

Quote: voyaka uh

It is reasonable to assume that the losses are approximately equal

Not smart, Alex. Not reasonable. Especially out of 28-38 thousand, 5 thousand Wagner fighters received civil freedom. And Wagner hacked 100 thousand APU

[voyaka uh]

"Wagner hacked 100 thousand APU" ///
----
This is according to Wagner himself.
The total losses of the killed by all APU for the year are estimated
at 85-90 thousand. With 50+ thousand on the other hand.

[Sergey39]

Another opus, from a person far from reality and living in a parallel reality! (((

[VIT101]

Strange war. Russia's main striking force is a private military company. And where are the troops of the Ministry of Defense? And what will happen if Prigozhin suddenly withdraws his army somewhere in Africa?

[Bromo4er]

Ministry of Defense pinch vushnikov near Kremennaya. It is strange that no one takes into account the successes in that direction when assessing the effectiveness of the Ministry of Defense. Despite the fact that they are often talked about and the content from there comes regularly.

[Andrei Nikolaevich]

Who prevents the press service of the RF Ministry of Defense from promoting itself in the same way as "Wagner"? Although, I guess: orders, instructions, planning meetings, etc.

[Ezekiel 25-17]

If the APU loses ~ about a battle a day, and such data slipped through, then this is from 20 to 000 soldiers.

[nik-mazur]

the American general estimates the total number of "musicians" involved in the Artemovsky direction at 26-36 thousand people

Two assault divisions, actually. With the support of artillery, tanks and aircraft.
And at the same time, a bunch of couch experts believe that Wagner has nothing to do with the Ministry of Defense and is fighting almost on a voluntary basis.

[Xnumx vis]

Quote from: nik-mazur

And at the same time, a bunch of couch experts believe that Wagner has nothing to do with the Ministry of Defense and is fighting almost on a voluntary basis.

I also think so. And they are presented as separate planning, etc. ... A single army organism that performs the task of destroying Bandera .. Only with a different organizational approach to fulfilling a combat mission ... Perhaps the combat structure of the future Russian army is being tested. By command , structure , management , etc . Waggner show themselves strongly. Maybe that's why there is such a misunderstanding between the high army command and PMC Wagner.

[nik-mazur]

Quote: 30 vis

Perhaps the combat structure of the future Russian army is being tested. By command, structure, management, etc.

Very similar to that. Only not the army as a whole, namely the assault and infantry formations. And now these are separate assault units with direct subordination at the highest level. And by the way, such special units often do not have a standard number designation, but a special name - the Alpha group, for example.

Quote: 30 vis

Maybe that's why there is such a misunderstanding between the high army command and PMC Wagner

I strongly doubt that there is any special misunderstanding. The fact that Prigozhin blurts out something hype from time to time only means that he is not a military man and can afford some irresponsibility and indiscipline.

[Glagol1]

I hope for one thing: our art is spreading from the Kyrgyz Republic, otherwise there is no way

[1erWahrheitsMinister_1984]

Wenn ich hier die teils völlig bornierten Commentare, wer nun mehr
Verluste hat lese, dann kann ich nur den Kopf schütteln...!?!

Worauf es ankommt ist alleine DER SIEG und ich denke der
Chef der Gruppe-Wagner wird ganz sicher wissen was er
und seine Kämpfer tun müssen, um den Sieg zu erringen...!!

Prigochin war bisher immer unverblümt offen und ziemlich ehrlich was
die jeweilige Situation angeht und hat nichts künstlich beschönigt...!!

Ich wünsche den russischen Kräften gemeinsam den Sieg und das
Selenski und seine Nazi-Freunde schon sehr bald alle in der Hölle
schmoren...!!!!!

[Mountain shooter]

Prigozhin then buried 8 people in the cemetery (when the scandal broke out)! Not 800, but 8 ... and constantly shipped to the enemy a convoy of trucks with abandoned dead Nazis. There are up to 30 coffins in one truck ... sort of a ratio ...

[Eduard_Adolfovich]

Yes, if there were so many of them, Artemovsk would already be free

[former soldier]

20-30 thousand "recruits"

Recruits are different. For Wagner, this term is not applicable.

[Andrei Nikolaevich]

Good luck and good luck to our Vikings!

[kill the fascist]

"Fear has big eyes" :) Good luck guys and until victory with minimal losses!

[Alexey G]

General Milli also spoke about the "huge losses" of PMCs near Artemovsk.

Yes, unfortunately there are losses. A cemetery is growing in Goryachiy Klyuch.
I have a colleague .. He resigned from the Ministry of Internal Affairs, although he had a good position and the respect of colleagues. He had experience of military operations in the North Caucasus. I wanted to be their instructor. But they offered to stay at the front for 2,5 months. He agreed. He was a sniper, but on March 12, after 2 months, his group came under mortar fire.
My comrade Valery died from profuse blood loss. Today was his funeral. Left behind a widow and two children.
Sleep well comrade. Kingdom of Heaven to you and to those who fell in the battle for the freedom of Russia from fascist colonial dependence. No one is forgotten, nothing is forgotten!

[My name]

Wagner just knows how to fight. That's why they win with a smaller number and this is in the attack.

[igor.borov775]

Hello. What are you clinging to the musicians. There is a very clear leadership system, there are no extra links. Rigid discipline. This is very annoying MO. There is another important property of Wagner. everything is focused on the attack aircraft for its requirement to support fire with artillery and other means. And with the Moscow Region, they drastically diverge in the consumption rates of military equipment. Three or four ammunition is consumed alone, and up to three refueling tanks. And cannon artillery as well. After all, Donetsk residents have such expenses. And the norm of an attack aircraft is 7 horns to the machine. Here is the stumbling block. In general, the Moscow Region does not have significant success after Mariupol, but they do. Remember how they started talking, there were paratroopers in the assault on Soledar and Prigozhin's statement that they were not in the city. And the assault on Ugledar says a lot.

[Alexander Tkachenko]

Didn't understand. What is the norm of 7 horns for an assault rifle (7 × 30 = 210), when the wearable ammunition for AK74 is 450 rounds (5,45 or 300 pieces 7.62 × 39).
Explain yourself?

[gray]

Quote: Tusv

Quote: UAZ 452

And the losses of the Wehrmacht in 1941 were much lower on the offensive than those of the Red Army on the defensive.

Well, of course. The frame hangs at an inaccessible height and corrects the fire. Pieces (Yu-87) work out in positions, then T-3 and T-4 under the cover of Shtug (self-propelled guns) advance. Horror. Who is not killed is shell-shocked

Hello. Maybe so, but the backbone of the "blitzkrieg" was broken in 1941.

[Alexander Tkachenko]

Thank God that there are Prigozhin and Wagner, who work better than Glavkoverkh, Shoigu and Gerasimov put together.

[vsart]

Milli is afraid that after the capture of Artemovsk (Bachmuta) PMC "Wagner" can go to the headquarters of the US Air Force in Ramstein.

[stankow]

6000 professionals will not pull 20000 recruits. It will be a completely different organization ... Yes, and where so many prisoners come from ...