The tactics of Soviet pilots, which the Luftwaffe mistakenly considered "weakness"

In his book about Soviet pilots, Luftwaffe General Walter Schwabedissen spoke very unflatteringly and even arrogantly about the aces of the Red Army Air Force.

According to the German officer, the Russian pilots were completely devoid of fighting qualities and initiative, which are extremely important in air combat. They allegedly simply followed the tactics of group combat, which, according to Schwabedissen, was extremely primitive.

What can I say here, the Luftwaffe general wrote in an arrogant manner already familiar to representatives of the Third Reich. However, one more important nuance must be taken into account here.

The words about the absence of these qualities and the initiative that the German officer used in his memoirs were largely the result of a misunderstanding of the tactics of the Soviet aces.

As fighter pilot of the Red Army Air Force Nikolai Golodnikov wrote, his main goal was not to shoot down the maximum number of enemy aircraft, and not to lose a single bomber by shooting down the enemy.

We had such a rule that it’s better not to shoot down anyone and not lose a single “bomber” than to shoot down three and lose one bomber

- explained the Soviet pilot.

As a result, the main task of the fighter pilot was to prevent the enemy from conducting aimed fire. At the same time, it does not matter exactly how this goal was achieved: to force to deviate from the course or to shoot down.

In addition, special tactics were also used during the hunt for Luftwaffe bombers. At times, the fighters of the Red Army Air Force sought not so much to shoot down an enemy aircraft as to “force” it to drop bombs before it reached the positions of the Soviet infantrymen.

At the same time, as Golodnikov wrote, during the interception of Luftwaffe bombers, Soviet pilots deliberately avoided air combat with the accompanying fighters. The thing is that the latter often imposed a confrontation and, thus, led the Red Army Air Force fighters away from the main target, allowing the bomber to drop bombs in a given perimeter.

Apparently, it was precisely this Soviet tactic, when air confrontations with Luftwaffe fighters were ignored for the sake of a more important goal, that the German general called "lack of fighting qualities and initiative."

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Comments

[voice of reason]

they have not changed since then. The enemy has his own layouts and understanding of tactics. They often come from other tasks and prerequisites. And now, they are also imposing this vision for the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Sometimes, this turns out to be an unpleasant surprise - as an offensive tactic by light mobile units on wheeled vehicles, bypassing fortified nodes and defensive strongholds. Sometimes, on the contrary, it begins to work against the enemy. as a tactic of using high-precision long-range artillery, in the free hunting mode for identified weakly protected targets, instead of creating fire support directly on the first line of LBS. There is a clash of different approaches here.
It has been fixed before. For example, the British used tanks in separate armored units to reinforce infantry units, and Germany, as separate mechanized large units, to ensure the advancement of which other branches and types of troops, sappers, anti-tank units and even aviation work. In the pre-war period, the Soviet Union first followed the path of creating large mechanized corps with a large proportion of tanks directly, but during the war it came to the formation of a mechanized corps, including infantry units on equipment and artillery divisions, etc.
Now there is such a clash of weapons tactics. it is necessary to analyze your successful finds - as the actions of small assault groups of infantry under the cover of artillery fire - according to the type of Wagner groups. So are the tactics and decisions of the enemy, if only to find an effective counter to them.

[alex neym_2]

Old, Soviet film "Normandie-Niemen":
Our task is to cover the bombers, and not get involved in a fight ... the French team to call to attack the enemy

[Quote Lavrov]

I'm sorry, are you serious?
What did you write there that the hulls seemed to be oversaturated with tanks? Yes, the reason is that exactly the opposite, the tanks were removed from the infantry direct support link and concentrated into shock fists in the form of tank armies.
What new things did you see at PMCs? The tactics of the assault groups from 1942 ???
And everything that you are discussing, mainly, as with actions on wheeled vehicles, etc., you yourself do not understand how small and insignificant it is even on the scale of the NWO? In general, it is not necessary to pay attention to this in the first place. And most importantly - the unity of all strata of society and state institutions in achieving the goal. If not, no tactics will have the expected effect on a serious geographical and temporal scale.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Quote Lavrov

What new things did you see at PMCs? The tactics of the assault groups from 1942 ???

The beginning of such tactics began in Stalingrad, rose to the top during the capture of Koenigsberg, but in Berlin it was the apogee. And when the tanks were driven into Grozny, it was a complete minus, the highest indicator of the degradation of our command, but it’s good that someone “took an old tome from the shelf and read it” ... True, the only thing I don’t understand is how the article, which is devoted to the tactics of Soviet pilots, fits together the times of the Great Patriotic War and the actions of ground assault groups of the RF Armed Forces in populated areas during the NWO. No, of course, "voice_of reason" can be understood here. The main thing for him is to be the first to write a comment, but how he (the comment) mates with the meaning of the article is, in 98%, he is the least of all worried. Well, on the other hand, the locust did not sit down nearby.

[archiroll]

Whoever had the best tactics was signed by all parties in a special unconditional act ...

[credo]

Well, who in his memoirs, and even as a loser, will write badly about himself.
You read such memoirists and the only question arises - "If everything was so good with them, then why did the "heroes of the pen" lose the war."

[Uncle lee]

Quote: arhitroll

in a special unconditional act...

The pilots flew poorly, the tankers fought poorly, the gunners shot poorly, the infantry took the Reichstag badly! Wake up, Walter!

[rocket757]

What can I say here, the Luftwaffe general wrote in an arrogant manner already familiar to representatives of the Third Reich. However, one more important nuance must be taken into account here.

. Everything is as always with the losers, the losers ... they are all bad, guilty and so on!
And the result speaks for itself ... they were poked, with faces, into the same thing and up to their ears.
In general, there is no subject of discussion.

[Cartalon]

Of course not, and then for half a year we storm urban-type settlements, our tactics are just like that.

[HAM]

What's this? Nemchura is again trying to raise his morale and his "superhumanity?
After the words of the fool from the German Foreign Ministry about the ongoing war with Russia, only this comes to mind ..
The generation that got what it deserved in Germany has died, and the new generation is unbeaten and fearless idiots ...
Therefore, they dig up the necessary memoirs ...

[Pavel57]

The basis of the army is the infantry. Everyone else works for her.

[Silver99]

Some boastful German "aces" shot down 350 enemy planes each, it is simply explained that the German planes had photo-machine guns and any hit plane was considered shot down, and on ours it was necessary to confirm the fall of either someone from the group, or partisans, or from the front line and some not defended the victory due to lack of confirmation. The tactics of Soviet pilots during the years of the Second World War underwent changes, they moved away from triples and began to go on sorties in pairs, they began to use multi-stage tactics, one link always went above the main group of fighters, preferably from the direction of the sun, altitude and maneuverability gave our aircraft some advantage over the rapidly climbing "Messers" ". Pilots of the P-39 loved the "aircobra", its cannons and coaxial machine guns literally cut enemy planes from a decent distance. By the way, the tactics and experience of the Second World War were well used by the pilots of the USSR in the fight against "shooting olds" and "sabers" in Korea.

[South Ukrainian]

. Russian pilots were completely devoid of fighting qualities

Reading the memoirs of our veteran pilots of the Great Patriotic War (in particular, fighters), he noted that almost everyone wrote about the readiness of fascist pilots to fight, only with numerical superiority.

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

According to the German officer, the Russian pilots were completely devoid of fighting qualities and initiative, which are extremely important in air combat. They allegedly simply followed the tactics of group combat, which, according to Schwabedissen, was extremely primitive.

chief "specialist" in air combat tactics
At the beginning of the war, Major General Walter Schwabedissen commanded the anti-aircraft artillery corps, the 2nd Fighter Aviation Division of the 12th Aviation Corps, and later became the commander of the German troops in the Netherlands. At the end of 1944, Schwabedissen headed the personnel department of the Hungarian Air Force and led it until the end of the war.

[Ivanushka Ivanov]

Stalin was also considered and is considered (even among us?!) as indecisive and even stupid, since he supposedly "missed" the attack. Hitler was furious at the "stupidity".
According to him, Stalin, being not completely stupid, would have to drag the entire Red Army to the border (which, by the way, was much inferior in size to Hitler’s united army), where a fresh fascist, and even having a short supply arm, would have to pack it according to boilers, - and then a parade march to Moscow.

But the "stupid" Stalin imposed the scenario of 1812 on the "smart" Hitler. Only in a much tougher version in relation to the enemy ...

[Bingo]

Yes, this is an old trick that the Germans were hunting for frags, and ours were performing a combat mission. It has been repeatedly observed that the fighters "cover" the object in the following way: as someone flew in, they sprayed, attacked, when there were only ruins in the place of the protected object, and the attack aircraft left the battle one by one.
Actually the outcome of the war showed who was right.
The Germans, as a prayer, had "the task of the fighter - inflicting damage on the enemy with minimal risk to himself." That's why they, by the way, avoided frontal ones.
In general, there are many interesting things. For example, now they are considered "downed" by hundreds. And the Germans themselves shot down - did not count. They counted "victories". Hit someone, he fell out of the battle - this is a victory. And he flopped or flew home ... For example, they have proof of victory - shots of a photo machine gun, and whoever flopped there or not - does not show them. This was also part of the propaganda - they say, how can they!

[Ulan.1812]

The German, like a parrot, continues to utter nonsense, which not only he broadcasts.
And all from a misunderstanding of the tasks of aviation, including fighter aircraft.
Front-line aviation must ensure the activities of ground forces first of all.
Let your aircraft bomb unhindered and prevent enemy bombers from bombing your troops.
Whether you shot down enemy fighters in the first case or simply drove them away from your bombers, it does not matter.
And in the second case, do not let the enemy bomb, and whether you shot down an enemy bomber or not, this is secondary.
The Soviet fighters did not have a goal to score personal accounts. Although, of course, it was encouraged by awards and cash prizes.
Except for those who flew on a free hunt.
Whose tactics were shown more effectively by the Red Banner of Victory over the Reichstag and the Act of Germany's unconditional surrender.

[vovochkarzhevsky]

Although "Only Old Men Go to Battle" is considered to be the best film about wartime fighter pilots, there is another, earlier film, where the combat work of fighter aircraft is formulated more clearly. This is the recently forgotten "Baltic Sky". Although this is fleet aviation, nevertheless.
Yet at that time only 15 years had passed from the victory. And the creators of the picture did not hesitate to invite consultants, and there were still enough of them.
Cutting of very revealing moments:
About followers.


IA tasks.

replenishment age. About 18-year-old boys there is no question.

[Illanatol]

According to the German officer, the Russian pilots were completely devoid of fighting qualities and initiative, which are extremely important in air combat. They allegedly simply followed the tactics of group combat, which, according to Schwabedissen, was extremely primitive.

And these "inept Ivans" managed to send about 60% of the vaunted German "experts" who died in WWII into the last turn. Moreover, half of the German aces who died on the Eastern Front - before the battles over the Kuban, that is, during the period when the Luftwaffe had an advantage in the air.

The "Aryans" certainly had less courage. Therefore, they really did not like such a tactical technique as "head-on" (rapprochement on a collision course ... whoever turns away runs the risk of being shot down), and when the Luftwaffe leadership tried to use a ram as a way to intercept "flying fortresses", German flyers (who underwent special training ) they just blew off ... unlike the "devoid of fighting qualities" Soviet pilots, who went to ram on their own initiative ...

[Illanatol]

Quote: vovochkarzhevsky

Although "Only Old Men Go to Battle" is considered to be the best film about wartime fighter pilots, there is another, earlier film, where the combat work of fighter aircraft is formulated more clearly. This is the recently forgotten "Baltic Sky". Although this is fleet aviation, nevertheless.

Based on a very good book of the same name.
Well, what can you do, it's not very politically correct in our time to show such films on TV.
Everything is relative. The viewer will compare with what is now being filmed on this topic (stupid commanders, a bloody hell, the main hero is one of the repressed, of course, not for the USSR, but for the "Orthodox faith" is fighting) and draws conclusions that are not what you need ...

[Victorovich]

Weird bug...
And these Fritz are unaware that our pilots are fulfilling the combat mission that has been set for them !!!
Stupid Germans, they could not understand this with their meager brains.
And this is an indicator of the combat discipline of our pilots !!!
The main thing is not to shoot down - the main thing is to complete the combat mission.