How Operation Citadel in 1943 exposed the weaknesses of the German Panther D tank

The German medium tank Panzerkampfwagen V Panther Ausführung D, launched in January 1943, had many "childhood diseases". Only by the autumn of 1944, the reliability of this machine was brought to the state of "satisfactory".

At the same time, the new Wehrmacht tank passed its baptism of fire in the summer of 1943, taking part in Operation Citadel (the strategic offensive of Nazi Germany on the northern and southern faces of the Kursk bridgehead), which revealed all the weaknesses of the Panther.

By the beginning of the operation, the Wehrmacht had 200 Panzerkampfwagen V Panther Ausführung D, which were identified in 39 tank regiment.

By the beginning of the offensive on July 5, 184 Panthers were ready for battle. Due to various malfunctions, the Germans managed to lose 16 vehicles on the march.

In the course of advancing to Cherkasy, the Wehrmacht lost another 25 tanks, which could not overcome the protective ditch. According to some reports, the cars simply could not climb the slope, as the teeth of the drive wheels could not stand it.

As a result, without engaging in battle with the Red Army, the 39th regiment has already lost 41 Panzerkampfwagen V units.

After heavy fighting for Cherkasskoe, by the morning of July 6, only 200 Panthers out of 87 remained in combat readiness.

At the same time, on July 10, the Wehrmacht had 10 Panzerkampfwagen V.

Tellingly, of all the disabled machines, only 25 were lost forever. The remaining 165 required repair due to the failure of one or another node, which, in fact, eloquently demonstrated the unreliability of the new Panthers of modification D.

Comments

[Armen Sologyan]

When the Germans deliver their tanks to Ukraine, their negative surprise will have no boundaries. The same is waiting for Abrams and other tanks of the West. There will be no need for grenade launchers and similar means. All the work will be done by Russian EW facilities. Why waste shells when a pulse-modulated signal can burn all the electronics. At the same time, the tank will turn from a modern one into a tank from the times of the First World War.

[invisible_man]

Why so difficult? Their hats, scoundrels, hats!

[Virus-free crown]

Why so hard? Their hats, scoundrels, hats!

No need to scatter public property!!!
Children's hats are enough to throw

[Frank Muller]

Don't make it easy. We will throw helmets, we will hammer with butts, we will trample with soldiers' boots! After all, the second army in the world?

[Armen Sologyan]

Yuri Galtsev had a number with a Vzhik-9 ram-type fighter bomber. He had 12 wheels with which he could trample an enemy plane in the air.

[Lykases1]

I am glad that you have such confidence in the means of electronic warfare, but everything is not so simple. All modern tanks are theoretically ready for action during a nuclear war. They are unlikely to be damaged by an electromagnetic pulse, and even more so by electronic warfare.

[Virus-free crown]

Even my knowledge gained in the 80s of the last century, when writing a standard undergraduate work on the topic "Protection of computers from EMP", is enough to protect any UAV from electronic warfare right now, up to that. that he will hang on the electronic warfare crew and sarcastically comment on all ranges of efforts to destroy him in the style of "But it doesn't matter ..."

[topol717]

Quote: Lykases1

All modern tanks are theoretically ready for action during a nuclear war.

The tank is almost completely made of iron, and even very ancient and very modern, so any tank, as a rule, will calmly endure a nuclear explosion being close to the epicenter. I would even say very close to the epicenter. You can probably spoil the sights, antenna radars, because during a nuclear explosion there is a lot of energy in the entire radiation spectrum, and here any electronic warfare is thousands of times weaker, But even after a nuclear explosion, the tank will be ready for battle.

[Frank Muller]

Near the epicenter of a nuclear explosion, the tank may endure the effects of nuclear weapons. And the crew, will it be ready for battle? The question is rhetorical, although the answer is much simpler: hardly.

[topol717]

It will be ready, because in a closed tank there will be nothing for the crew, BC or electronics. Well, yes, it will shake a little bit, it will knock on the armor with fragments. After, of course, it is necessary to close the air supply from the street and dump it from the epicenter. kilometers for 20.

[NetKeys]

In the epicenter, it seems, the lowest level of radiation pollution.

[mat-vey]

Quote: CleanKeys

In the epicenter, it seems, the lowest level of radiation pollution.

But the level of thermal radiation is very strong ... and the shock wave is not very weak - it scatters tanks like matchboxes ..

[topol717]

No. The tank is heavy, and its windage is low. he freely holds the shock wave, although the brick and panel buildings are falling apart.

[mat-vey]

Well, yes, well, yes ... And in the chipboard films, the commies lied ...

[mat-vey]

Quote from: topol717

therefore, any tank, as a rule, will calmly endure a nuclear explosion while being close to the epicenter.

Actually, this has all been studied and tested for a long time. And there are even tables and all sorts of nomograms showing how the tank and other objects and inhabitants will suffer depending on the power of the charge and the distance from the picenter .... Even for a "toy" bomb dropped on Hiroshima, this is no longer one hundred meters...

[Illanatol]

Quote from: topol717

The tank is almost completely made of iron, and even very ancient and very modern, so any tank, as a rule, will calmly endure a nuclear explosion being close to the epicenter. I would even say very close to the epicenter.

Well, it's unlikely. Let's not forget about high temperatures (metal conducts heat well) and about the shock wave, which is able to turn over even a 70-ton hulk.
Without communication and sights, the combat capability of the tank is in question.

[YOUR]

Depending on what you mean by "damage". If what the little boy wrote

Quote: Armen Sologyan

There will be no need for grenade launchers and similar means. All the work will be done by Russian EW facilities. Why waste projectiles when a pulse-modulated signal can burn all the electronics.

That is, of course, stupidity. But it is possible to score with r / st interference. The rest, well, let the salad dream. Don't ask him why Musk's companions haven't scored yet

[Armen Sologyan]

besides IC and EMI, there are other types of signals, but it all depends on the frequency and modulation. What about microwave and microwave?

[Armen Sologyan]

If the tank remains and if there are cockroaches in addition to the crew, then cockroaches in the tank will fight after an atomic or hydrogen explosion. The cockroaches watched for a long time how the crew coped with the combat vehicle. I will add that more than one bunker will not save you from a nuclear war, and the enemy should not occupy the territory. One way or another, but humanity will perish and only a small amount of it will mutate and turn into something else, not human. In addition, the planet Earth is being watched and will not leave anyone who is capable of destroying.

[Andy_nsk]

All the work will be done by Russian EW facilities. Why waste shells when a pulse-modulated signal can burn all the electronics

Our electronic warfare equipment could not even protect the Antonovsky bridge from gps-guided projectiles. There was also a funny story about how the Khibiny system (for some reason installed on the Su-24) disabled the Amer destroyer. About the failure of the tank's electronics - nonsense from the same series.

[Sergey Valov]

"from projectiles guided by gps." - electronic warfare equipment can theoretically only reduce the accuracy of fire, but not protect against RSs. Almost everything is much more complicated. It is simultaneously impossible and suicidal to keep EW stations on all the time, Hymers' ice time is scanty, and it is almost impossible to calculate when to turn on the station. The real methods of dealing with these weapons, most likely, are now being worked out, but the layman will not know about this very soon.

[Armen Sologyan]

life and the battlefield will show. In the meantime, new technology is being tested, some types are still being held back in order to be used in a full-scale war.

[topol717]

Quote from Andy_nsk

Our electronic warfare equipment could not even protect the Antonovsky bridge from gps-guided projectiles.

I think no electronic warfare means are capable of this.
For the signal comes from the satellite and the antennas on the rockets are directed upwards, so there is no way to somehow influence the quality of this signal. Roughly speaking, even if you accurately direct the signal towards the satellite, there will be no effect, they will simply pass one signal through the other.

[Andy_nsk]

I think no electronic warfare means are capable of this.
For the signal comes from the satellite and the antennas on the rockets are directed upwards, so there is no way to somehow influence the quality of this signal.

In general, to determine the location, you need to contact several satellites (at least 4), and the antenna pattern is not directed upwards, but has a circular orientation (the most common type of antenna is a four-lobe vibrator). There are several problems with jamming gps signals.
- the missile's trajectory is corrected along the entire trajectory, and even if the signal is suppressed above the object, this does not mean that the missile will fly past, the CEP will simply increase, so the signal must be able to be suppressed as far as possible from the protected object.
- the jammer cannot work continuously, otherwise it will become a target for an anti-radar missile, i.e. it needs to be moved from one place to another and turned on only after the launch of the hymers (Sergey Valov already noted this fact in his post).

[Catfish]

At the same time, the tank will turn from a modern one into a tank from the times of the First World War.

Well well... It’s even impossible to comment seriously here, but I laughed heartily.
Thank you!

[Sergey985]

The weight of these Pepelats is such that it is better for them not to leave the road. As for the black earth...

[solar]

The weight is the same as that of the T-80. They go somehow.

[Sergey985]

T-80 weighs 67 tons? Perhaps you are confusing something?

[solar]

The panther weighed 44 tons.

The text of your comment is short and, in the opinion of the site administration, carries useful information.

[YOUR]

The article is patriotic. For example

In the course of advancing to Cherkasy, the Wehrmacht lost another 25 tanks, which could not overcome the protective ditch. According to some reports, the cars simply could not climb the slope, as the teeth of the drive wheels could not stand it.

Will other tanks be able to overcome the anti-tank ditch? Here, rather, the stupidity of the boss played a role if there was such a case. The article is very superficial.
Tank "Panther" all participants in the war recognized as one of the best. In 1944, we had several battalions armed with captured Panthers

[Revolver]

Quote: Armen Sologyan

a tank from a modern one will turn into a tank from the times of the First World War.

Well, not the first, but at least the second, but rather even the first post-war models. But still the twentieth century, and not even the end, but at best the middle.

[rocket757]

How Operation Citadel in 1943 exposed the weaknesses of the German Panther D tank

. But what, the situation is rather typical at that time ... haste, new equipment, technologies, there are very many new ones ... they simply did not have time to bring to mind both the technology itself and the production cycle.
It happens not infrequently... yesterday, today, and tomorrow there are plenty of such examples.

[Private SA]

Gearboxes and shortcomings in the caterpillar system. High ground pressure.
This is how the Germans themselves assessed the shortcomings of the first Pz TV in their memoirs.

[Frank Muller]

Be that as it may, the Panther entered the history of WWII as the best medium tank of the Third Reich. True, Soviet tank builders classified it as a heavy tank. And the not entirely successful debut of these (then completely new) cars is quite understandable: the first pancake, as a rule, is lumpy. And the first battle always gives invaluable experience - they give two unbeaten for a beaten one. My father's friend (tank engineer, teacher at the Academy of Armored Forces) had the honor to meet these tanks in battle just near Kursk, and then transport captured samples to our training ground. He spoke honestly about them: “Not a bad tank. Booking is better than our "thirty-four"; optics are much better (ours did not reach the Zeiss one throughout the war); the gun is cool, but the engine is gasoline, although the tanks are more conveniently located, and the chassis is not so hot. But they spoiled us a lot of blood, or rather armor, near Kursk - I felt it in my own skin. Then our losses in the clash with the "Panthers" were greater than the German ones. Only later, in subsequent battles, we learned to beat them much better and more confidently.

[Essex62]

If we abstract from the cost-number of issued criterion, this is the best car (modifications A / G) BB 2. Optics, visibility, mobility and a terrible weapon that can turn into trash any medium tank of the allies from 2 km and successfully fight with cords at shorter distances. Well, childhood illnesses Ausf D were cured pretty quickly. Not everything, of course. The jamb with chess skating rinks incorporated into the design drank the blood of the German tankers and helped us, impudently, pi n up to ourselves and others who stuck to the Victory over the Teutons.

[solar]

The jamb with chess skating rinks incorporated into the design drank the blood of the German tankers

What's a goat? The same arrangement was on the Tigers, the Germans in their memoirs do not complain about these skating rinks.

[Dilettante grandfather]

What's a goat? The same arrangement was on the Tigers, the Germans in their memoirs do not complain about these skating rinks.

Well, if you believe Rudel's memoirs, then he single-handedly destroyed all the armored units of the Red Army several times ... Who is there on his Pz-Vl ausf. E the second storyteller Carius shot - it is not clear after Rudel's memoirs. In general, Carius has criticism of the running gear, re-read carefully his description of the "Tiger".

[solar]

I read Carius, but did not see a word about criticism of the staggered arrangement of the skating rinks.

[Dilettante grandfather]

I'm too lazy to open the book and point to the exact page, but that's where he talks about the tank. Describes including the chassis. It seems to be about the first quarter of his book.

[solar]

I specifically somehow looked for where he complains specifically about the staggered arrangement of the rinks. Didn't find anything.

[solar]

Overlapping suspension had eight axles on each side. There were three balancers on each axle, which rotated inside the caterpillar and simultaneously supported it. The lighter types of German tanks had both balancers and road wheels. Just think how many of these rollers need to be removed from the “tiger” if only one inner one needs to be replaced!

This he describes the first impressions of the Tiger. But there is nowhere in the book itself that this problem really took place during the hostilities. Perhaps the tankers simply did not do this, the failure of one roller did not greatly affect the operation of the tank, there were many of them.
Moreover, the phrase is ambiguous. It can be seen from the text that he distinguishes between balancers and track rollers and draws attention to the fact that Tigra is exactly balancers.

There were three balancers on each axle.

Light tanks have both balancers and rollers

light types of German tanks had both balancers and road wheels

And then he hypothetically writes what would happen if the Tiger had what he calls rollers.

[Dilettante grandfather]

Just think how many of these rollers need to be removed from the “tiger” if only one inner one needs to be replaced!

Directly - yes, he does not complain that he personally had to do this. But think for yourself how much longer it took to change this very inner roller compared to, say, the T-34. But this directly affects the combat capability of the tank - the speed of repairs in the field.

[solar]

Perhaps it does not need to be changed in the field, especially internal ones? There are a lot of them, and in case of failure of one serious damage to the capabilities of the tank will not be? Did they change it already during a serious repair in the rear, if necessary? And the tankers themselves did not do this, as I wrote above.
And it will be even easier to change the outer one, it’s easier after all.

[Dilettante grandfather]

Moreover, the phrase is ambiguous. It can be seen from the text that he distinguishes between balancers and track rollers and draws attention to the fact that Tigra is exactly balancers.

Do you think that the balancer is similar to the track roller?! I won't giggle, just look what a balancer is...

[solar]

I don’t think so, but the German, judging by the text, believed that the Tiger had no rollers, only balancers.
Either this is a translation, or misunderstanding due to terminology.

And then he hypothetically writes that it would be if the Tiger had what he calls rollers.

[Dilettante grandfather]

Possibly a bad translation, nothing more.

[Essex62]

Do they really not complain? Three rows overlap. To get to the second third row it is necessary to remove, almost, not all. And the shit, between them, clogged and froze. Yes, and on the Tiger there is such a jamb, it started with it. Paying for weight distribution on the ground and smooth ride. A joint of the gloomy German genius. Zimmerit is still useless. Reduced release rate by 10-15%. How much easier is the running gear of our KV and IS bands.

[solar]

To get to the second third row it is necessary to remove, almost, not all. And the shit, between them, clogged and froze. Yes, and on the Tiger there is such a jamb, it started with it.

it’s not in the memoirs of the Germans that there were problems on the Tiger because of this, either because of dirt or because of replacement.
The smoothness of the ride is not only the comfort of the crew, it is also much better conditions for observation in battle.

for weight distribution on the ground

That is, the correct distribution of the load

[Essex62]

This is all true, only repairmen or mechanical drivers do not write memoirs, but you have to work hard from the heart. The gentlemen "tank aces" did not write about such trifles and nothing more. If the mud between the rollers froze, the tank stood up. We have a lot of evidence of this, in the worker-peasant society.

[solar]

Carius "Tigers" in the mud.
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/german/carius_o/01.html
He was the commander of the Tiger, wrote about different things. If there were problems, he would certainly write about it.

We have a lot of evidence of this, in the worker-peasant society.

Can you provide a link to such evidence? I've been looking for a long time

[Essex62]

Even the footage, in the chronicles, is where the British Lend-Lease is processed with sledgehammers, beating off the mud. And there is written evidence. Look for more.
Shl minus, if anything, not mine.

[solar]

I meant German technology. There is a massive misconception that this is the problem of the German chess suspension.

British lend-lease is processed with sledgehammers, beating off the mud.

Mud can be beaten off for various reasons, not necessarily due to the fact that for this reason the tank stopped. This, by the way, indicates that this is not only a problem of German technology with their staggered suspension, and there would be plenty of our evidence in this regard. But I didn't see it.
Searched for evidence more than once - this is not the first time I discuss this problem on the net. All statements in this regard are purely hypothetical.

[Essex62]

Perhaps. I didn’t dig this topic on purpose. But the German mat definitely hung up to the dome of the Reichtag when the rembat changed the crumpled rollers. I have tested it myself on scale models. Assembling a hodovka for the Kingtiger, Tiger and Panther is still a pleasure, you can only stuff them clearly according to the scheme. In real life it's hell. 24 bolts on the roller and you need to remove two adjacent ones, otherwise you can’t put it on the axle.

[solar]

I saw photos of dismantled rollers, and in the field. Looks difficult. However, there is no direct evidence that this was a serious problem for the Germans, otherwise references to memories of this were easily found. And so everyone - including me - has heard or read many times, but there is nothing specific to cite. When I came across this, I thought about it.
this arrangement of rollers has been used since the beginning of the 30s on a wide variety of equipment, from a heavy tank to a motorcycle. And until the end of the war, it was not abandoned. this clearly does not mean that there were big problems

[Essex62]

The advantages of smooth running and distribution of ground pressure compensated for the inconvenience. Ordinary hard workers do not write memoirs. We walk in circles.

[solar]

The tank commander is a grassroots link. But he didn't write.

[Essex62]

Is it Karius, that grassroots link? Oh well.

[AUL]

Quote: Essex62

The jamb with chess skating rinks incorporated into the design drank the blood of the German tankers

Nevertheless, this type of suspension (Knimpkamph, it seems) was used by the Germans with might and main on many models of armored vehicles and even on half-tracked motorcycles. Why - I don’t know, but obviously not because of the stupidity of German designers.

[solar]

It made it possible to increase the smoothness of the ride, which had a positive effect on visibility in battle, and to reduce the actual pressure on the ground, the load was better distributed over the track area.
Someone, it is not clear who, came up with a bike that the rollers freeze together, but the Germans themselves do not write anything about this.

[Dilettante grandfather]

At the expense of frozen rollers: this could very likely happen. When driving on thaw between the rollers, there is always dirt, especially in the area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbthe axles. During the night, at sub-zero temperatures, the mud will freeze. But the Germans themselves (Karius in his memoirs) were not very good with the chess suspension because of the difficult maintainability. To get to the inner rink and change it, it was necessary to remove several others. And this is time and waste of energy.

[solar]

it could very well happen

judging by the memoirs of the Germans, this did not happen. At least they didn't notice it.

[Essex62]

Smooth running. Our contemporaries, restorers write with admiration that you roll like a car.

[Seamaster]

The tank was good, but in the summer of 1943 it was still damp. But it’s stupid to gloat: how many YEARS have our T-34 been brought to mind? four?????

[Alexander Tkachenko]

"The unreliability of the new Panthers, modification D".

I wonder how it was with the "old" Panthers in 1943 (if they existed at all)!

[-Igor-]

I wonder how it was with the "old" Panthers in 1943

But the old Panthers in the summer of 1943 did not break, at all

[former soldier]

Tellingly, of all the disabled machines, only 25 were lost forever. The remaining 165 required repairs

Therefore, German historians still do not consider them losses, and the Battle of Kursk is not lost. Themselves left because the Fuhrer ordered. Nothing more and nothing less.

[AUL]

Quote: Former soldier

Themselves left because the Fuhrer ordered. Nothing more and nothing less.

Doesn't this remind you of anything?

[certero]

KA was lucky that the panthers were so unfinished.

[Essex62]

At that time, the Germans had no chance, even if they had been "finished". The amount of armor produced by the USSR exceeded their output at times. Well, they would have broken through, well, they closed and ran out of steam. This is not 41. Such a grouping, with such a quantity of equipment and a supply of used equipment, would have released itself easily.

[certero]

Quote: Essex62

Well, they would have broken through, well, they closed and ran out of steam.

The Germans practically broke through, in fact, why the tank army had to be thrown into battle instead of being used for a counteroffensive. If they had 200 panthers, which there was simply nothing to hit on the forehead, the situation would become threatening.

[Essex62]

It wasn’t easy for us throughout the war, but Germany’s potential was exhausted. They scraped together what they could for the last battle. Rotmistrov's army was brought in, because it was at hand. They pulled it up, they would still have strength and unlock it. And why in the forehead? The tactics of the VETs were just based on flank fire. The tankers did the same. Maneuver and fire on board, stern. Look at the number of tanks they have. This is only directly in the area of ​​​​the CD itself. In the rear, factories sculpted 34ki like pies. Losses would be, of course, even more, but the strategic initiative and victory, all the same, remained with the Red Army. Dashki died and it's good. In principle, I agree, many were lucky that they died without a fight.

[NetKeys]

Quote from solar

The same arrangement was on the Tigers, the Germans in their memoirs do not complain about these skating rinks.

.
How much they complained! If the internal one was damaged, THREE rollers had to be dismantled and mounted back. Triple work instead of one - not a reason to swear?

[solar]

Can you give a link - where they complained about it?
If you are talking about Carius, then he did not complain, this was discussed above.

[NetKeys]

Nobody saves links for you.
Lay eight 10-ruble coins in a checkerboard pattern on your table. The top overlaps the bottom. And lift (remove) one lower coin vertically upwards, with the conditions that the upper coins, which are not lower, do not move.
Maybe then you'll stop denying reality. Or, let's say, ask any factory locksmiths.

[solar]

These are all theoretical considerations.
If this were a really important issue, there would be a mountain of references to this.

[Victorovich]

I was always pinned by the name - medium tank T-V ....
Well, what place is it average???
Panzerkampfwagen V Panther
Classification Medium tank
Combat weight, t 44,8
Why, then :
KB-1
Combat weight, t 43 (1939), 47,5 (1941)
KV-1С
Combat weight, t 42,5
IS-1 (1943)
Combat weight, t 44,2
IS-2 in
Combat weight, t 46

Why then were HF and IS considered heavy and Panther medium!??!?!?
The crap is full.
The Panther is a heavy tank, period.


Then someone wrote that the Panther is better armored than the T-34 ... so in terms of mass it must be compared with KVs and ISs !!! For some reason, no one is surprised by the better booking of KV and ISs than that of the T-34 !!

[Private SA]

Quote from solar

Perhaps the tankers simply did not do this, the failure of one roller did not greatly affect the operation of the tank, there were many of them.

This was done by repair depots if a non-repairable tank was not sent to the Reich.
It was then that they referred to the list of equipment under the paragraph irreparable losses.
Replenishable losses with dozens of tanks at the repair bases were once captured by the tankers of the Katukov army.

Quote: Frank Muller

And the crew, will it be ready for battle? The question is rhetorical, although the answer is much simpler: hardly.

And there was such a concept in the era of the deployment of neutron warheads from the USA in Western
Europe - "living dead". Without the letter "and", as in the title of the novel by K.G. Simonova. Crews
tanks, over which neutron ammunition will explode during a breakthrough. And armor inside - gamma
radiation will begin to radiate. That's what they were all afraid of. That two days before the understood death
create and where to turn ...

Quote: Grandfather is an amateur

Well, if you believe Rudel's memoirs, then he single-handedly destroyed all the armored units of the Red Army several times ...

Well, what are you, he only shot one tank army (500 tanks) (most
tanks probably returned to service after the replacement of diesel engines), and the battleship "Marat"
laid on the ground.

[navycat777]

Quote from: topol717

It will be ready, because in a closed tank there will be nothing for the crew, BC or electronics. Well, yes, it will shake a little bit, it will knock on the armor with fragments. .

Fragments from a nuclear bomb are cool !!!